"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022496e3ed270c8494dbdfa08b350860a31\u0022\u003EWednesday, 28 March 2012\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022254b13c787b74b8381bbaa0967deb545\u0022\u003EWednesday, 28 March 2012\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1eea03c01334b0e80717630add49ebf\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b60929a32c94627b9ae5760deb454af\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b308d2e96f6d449bae30b5478ebd2de7\u0022\u003EGovernment Financial Position\u2014Management of Government Debt\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00227f7b3f8b9bc042e1aedc47d055721ea6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f7b3f8b9bc042e1aedc47d055721ea6\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What measures is the Government taking to responsibly manage its finances and reduce the build-up in debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4fd8e8dd95d4b1e8d9d881f14948459\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4fd8e8dd95d4b1e8d9d881f14948459\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I am pleased to report that responsibly managing public finances is one of the Government\u2019s four priorities in this term of Government. We have taken a number of steps. We have committed to a fast return to surplus in 2014-15 so we can stop the increase in public debt. We have reprioritised about $9 billion of lower priority spending in the last three Budgets. We have told public sector chief executives to take a careful look at their own operations and tell us how they could be improved to deliver better services without extra money, and we have committed to selling minority shareholdings in five State-owned enterprises to New Zealanders, which we expect to raise between $5 billion and $7 billion over the next 3 to 5 years\u2014money we therefore will not have to borrow in volatile overseas markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5263929466487395475a51cb728699\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the reasons Government debt has increased in recent years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236265d0fc6d340f99a71668c7622884f\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The pre-election update showed that net Crown debt increased from $10 billion in 2008 to $40 billion last year. It was caused by a number of factors, including the Government\u2019s supporting the economy through the recession and the global financial crisis, rebuilding Canterbury through the $5.5 billion Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Fund and about $7 billion in Earthquake Commission expectations and paying out on earthquake claims, and\u2014the biggest factor\u2014an unsustainable 85 percent increase in Government spending from $35 billion a year in 2000 to $64 billion a year in 2009. That massive ramp-up in spending left us facing projections of never-ending deficits and ever-rising debt, and that is why the Government is working hard to turn that round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228688a254bc8c4b0d9798a4fe337a7e31\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s partial sale of shares in four energy companies and Air New Zealand help to reduce debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e725cd6fe36845d48915fe3b48ad1f2b\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: It will play a very important part in our overall programme. The sale to New Zealanders of minority shareholdings in Mighty River Power, Meridian Energy, Genesis, Solid Energy, and Air New Zealand will free up money to invest in priority projects like modern schools and hospitals without our having to borrow that money from uncertain world financial markets. The Government expects the programme to raise between $5 billion and $7 billion over the next 3 to 5 years. I suppose our opponents, who seem very critical, should explain to New Zealanders why borrowing this money and paying more interest to overseas lenders would be better than paying dividends to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243fb825788134e6799c93ad9c79f4b31\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that at the Finance and Expenditure Committee this morning the Office of the Auditor-General, when giving evidence of its audit of Treasury\u2019s implementation of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, said that so far as it could ascertain, at the time, Treasury did not report in writing to the Minister of Finance, or any other Minister, that finance company liabilities were growing sharply in the 6 months after the guarantee, which increased the risk by the Crown by more than $100 million in that period alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d973c83c557402c99debb6f089bad97\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Finance obviously did not attend that committee meeting this morning. However, I would point out that the Auditor-General\u2019s report on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme found that the scheme worked as intended to protect the stability of the financial system overall. The report identified some issues early on in the scheme that needed to be tightened up, and from about March 2009 it identified that they were. That is, of course, hardly surprising, given that the scheme was put in place in haste by the previous Government in the middle of an election campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdcbbeb7b92646bfaeffccc500bf35fb\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned by the Office of the Auditor-General\u2019s findings in its performance audit that Treasury monitoring and reporting to Ministers\u2014or non-reporting to Ministers\u2014of increases of more than $100 million in finance company deposits and increasingly risky lending was inadequate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022803182e5850141e881d7bab1495556f8\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury, of course, only had limited powers to stop companies growing their books. That is one of the difficulties and the moral hazard of a retail deposit guarantee scheme. I think that is one of the challenges, and I am sure it was one of the challenges the Minister of Finance faced at the time when the Government was trying to deal with, on the one hand, the risks and stability of the whole financial system, and then the issue about potentially encouraging people to deposit into guaranteed finance companies. So that is one of the challenges. The report says Treasury could have monitored some things more closely and asked companies why it was occurring, but that does not necessarily translate into stopping companies, unless they were in breach of their deeds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afde0c9002c64c8fb7646224ea77febb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does his first answer to Mr Bridges, when he said that the Government was committed to selling these shares to New Zealanders, possibly mean that no foreign interests will obtain any shares if there is full New Zealander subscription?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efd74c9c080440fafd8a4bb768c30b3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: We have been on record as saying about 85 percent to 90 percent of those companies would be owned by New Zealand mum and dad investors, and, of course, the Government\u2019s 51 percent cornerstone shareholding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022758e84200e6f4166a084443ec70ea82f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am asking, from his words, whether or not he admits the possibility that what he is saying, by way of assurance, is true: that it is possible no foreigner will obtain any of these shares. That is the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94d87e7e0794b219de5636a3b2f1ec2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, I thought the Minister\u2019s answer was no, he cannot give that assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b80ea3227714112bd8531d43365a8c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why did he say so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5732f74cede45b2b0fcc9f20120f4f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He did not use exactly those words, but it was perfectly clear what he was saying, that there was a certain percentage the Government expected to remain in New Zealand hands, and, therefore, some of the rest could end up in foreign hands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a0330bfe55a482e898ebcb25d87e5d4\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen supporting the partial floats of these State-owned enterprises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220783bed97a3a43ceb76e44b41dfacacc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report in today\u2019s New Zealand Herald that says there is a strong interest from the investing public in these partial floats. For example, Hamilton Hindin Greene director Grant Williamson is quoted as saying: \u201CWe\u2019ve had a rather large number of investors show interest, including new investors that maybe haven\u2019t been in the market for some time.\u201D As Ministers have said, the Government expects between 85 percent and 90 percent New Zealand ownership of these companies, including the Government\u2019s commitment to retain at least 51 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f75a83078c74a8fa2578a0240226248\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister: is the answer to my question no, or does he need it translated from somewhere else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d500ce7610f04a10982a063be716a8ce\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is asking whether the answer to that question that he just asked is no, I suppose that the only correct answer is that I do not know, because he has not actually asked me a question in the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378c58c653034432bc6c7fc2f5646fd5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You were seeking to be helpful to me in explaining what answer he had given. I am asking now a very direct question: is the answer to my first question no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe709a29c3d641cfabd9a7541d31d055\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is perfectly obvious what the Rt Hon Winston Peters means, and I think the Minister could answer it. The member is simply asking whether the answer to the first question he put to the Minister today is no. I think that is capable of being answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efd42fa20fb4da6959df92da1e41b4e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The only trouble is I cannot remember exactly what he asked in his first question today, and so I do not know whether I am answering no in the affirmative or the negative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226faa220277184254a1de28b79231f889\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think I can offer a remedy for the situation. [Interruption] Order! I am on my feet. I invite the right honourable member to repeat his first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222389307a6c6e42f2b6abf47b2bc0cb95\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the answer to the question that I first raised with regard to Mr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d23b92a01a49b7a326d896cad8c945\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: He can\u2019t remember, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd35903d4fe443c89957ebf79528ae80\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, to help you, I am trying to put it in a more simple way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222380eb7aba224e77bf67914f451b7d6f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! What I actually invited the right honourable member to do was to repeat his first question. He was complaining about the fact that he felt it was not answered adequately, and that led to his second question, which led to confusion because the Minister was not sure what he was asking. So I invited the member to repeat his first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704547211c544704a31f45fb5c9e044d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Does it mean, given that his answer to Simon Bridges was that the Government was committed to selling these shares to New Zealanders, that it is possible no foreigner will be able to buy any shares at all in these enterprises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235641a0c2146474494eab9116de065f4\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: It is always possible that no foreigner may end up buying shares, but the Government\u2019s stated intention is for New Zealand shareholders to be at the front of the queue. We expect around 85 to 90 percent of those companies to be held by New Zealanders, including the Government\u2019s 51 percent share, once the share offer has taken place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bd595df6aae4ff0ac42ca0bffee9f1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon John Key\u2014Recording of Private Conversation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022438bfbec447747d4b21d6e44312b830f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022438bfbec447747d4b21d6e44312b830f\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Attorney-General: Were the Prosecution Guidelines dated 1 January 2010 applied to the decision not to prosecute Mr Ambrose over the Tea Tape complaint?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00227d4f801aab6c4617b836ed7f43dbf24e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d4f801aab6c4617b836ed7f43dbf24e\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E The decision whether or not to prosecute was an independent decision made by the police commissioner. I have no personal knowledge of the commissioner\u2019s process in making his decision. There is no day-to-day supervision of prosecution decisions made by agencies, including the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2b4a03f534142749cbdcc862062dbb1\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prosecution Guidelines make it clear that the Attorney-General is responsible for their administration, and I thought it was perfectly within the ambit of my primary question to ask the Attorney-General whether he was satisfied that on this occasion they had applied. That is what the question does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286400214ef074028b01e791082dd1d12\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister\u2019s answer was a reasonable answer, I believe, because the member asked whether the Prosecution Guidelines were applied, and the Minister described exactly what happened. The member can dig deeper with his further supplementary questions. I think it would be unreasonable for the Speaker to say that was an unacceptable answer. There are more supplementary questions. The idea of the supplementary question is to dig into the Minister\u2019s answer\u2014given the information about the police commissioner making the decision independently, did that process meet these guidelines? That is what supplementary questions are for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226795f267d15b478081d574a6c5d08ec6\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Given that paragraph 1.5 of the Prosecution Guidelines clearly states an expectation that they will apply to decisions relating to prosecution by the New Zealand Police, is he satisfied as Attorney-General that the Prosecution Guidelines were properly applied in this case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236103c73889e49f69fa263d03499bfc0\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The decision about whether or not to prosecute was an independent decision made by the police commissioner. There is no day-to-day supervision of prosecution decisions made by agencies, including the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d01a34ed4654c0ebb7c126868807a70\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My supplementary question, on your advice, sought the view of the Attorney-General as to the appropriateness of the decision made on this occasion. Given that he is the officer of the State responsible for the application of the Prosecution Guidelines, it is perfectly proper for him to express a view and to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a34cd29184894795a5ba957d14f50569\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c6946769b64764bec65dd767c3a779\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will hear the Hon Chris Finlayson, the Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1d3ac4bbcc4b3e8e665f5463fe40bb\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Not only would it be not right for me but also it would be quite improper for me to make any comment second-guessing a decision by the commissioner on whether or not to prosecute. There is a clear delineation between the general principles set out in the guidelines, and day-to-day matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364595f68dca4210861805f21d765dc7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The interesting issue that has arisen is that the question that Charles Chauvel has asked does not ask about the merits of the particular decision for which the Attorney-General is not responsible. The question asked is whether the Attorney-General is satisfied the guidelines applied. The guidelines are something the Attorney-General is responsible for, and I think, although the Attorney-General is quite right that he has got to be careful not to comment on particular decisions by the independent authority\u2014the police commissioner\u2014the question is a reasonable question about whether the Attorney-General is satisfied the guidelines for which he is responsible were applied. That is not, in my view, a question out of order and I would invite the Attorney-General to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5894aee0e144e63b613738ffc6adff6\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am afraid I will probably displease you, because I can and will add nothing further to that. This is a day-to-day decision made by the commissioner and I am not privy to the commissioner\u2019s thought processes in making the decision about whether to prosecute. I go further than that and say it would be quite improper for me to comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f57656ab2bf4196b2d461ec7c9e5303\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Again the Attorney-General, either deliberately or otherwise, is missing the point. You were quite clear in your ruling about this. Mine was simply a question about whether he had a view as principal law officer of the State, responsible for the prosecution guidelines administration in New Zealand, whether the decision as to whether to prosecute in this case was sufficiently compliant with those guidelines. He is entitled to have a view; indeed he should have a view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d656ac5c4c647a292d6598d22949352\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a very interesting situation that has arisen here. I have got to say I have sympathy for both members, because the guidelines exist and the Attorney-General is responsible for them. But I think in his further answer there, the Attorney-General has indicated, although he did not perhaps use the words, that he considered that it is not in the public interest for him to go further than he has in answering even in respect of the guidelines. It raises all sorts of interesting issues around the value of the guidelines, but still, the Attorney-General has argued\u2014[Interruption]; I am on my feet\u2014that he believes, and I am interpreting what he said, that it would not be in the public interest for him to comment further in respect of whether that decision complied with the guidelines. I should not second-guess that answer from the Attorney-General. The member is entitled to ask further questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205d025e51a874b6c9b717c668926eb31\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for your ruling. Could we have clarification, in the circumstances, from the Attorney-General that he is claiming that it is not in the public interest to answer my question, because if I understand your ruling correctly, that is how you have taken his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226525fe6cc7944a0d800cc034d9df64f5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think he made that very clear. He said he would not comment further on the individual decision of the police commissioner, even in covering that decision in relationship to the guidelines. That is clearly a decision that he does not consider it in the public interest for the Attorney-General to be commenting on such a decision. I think that is reasonable for me to accept that as Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fbe614edd744ebabbdc5a7b4bd5ef38\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The normal approach that has been taken in this House\u2014I can remember probably three or four times previously\u2014is that where a Minister believes it is not in the public interest to answer a question, they get up and they say just that, rather than being interpreted as they are now by you as meaning that, even though they do not say it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91899b517b2439eb7a4b559d99d51ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the point the member makes. Would the Attorney-General assist the progress of the House. Would he be prepared to indicate in his view whether in fact it is the issue of public interest that prevents him from answering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202958436cbe043e3bafcfc35c9014e80\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I did not think it was some kind of primer 1, formulaic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b262783f1f3543069cf20822849bf6d8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, I have asked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201d46511efda42a3b77e119ce2ef3720\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I so do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dcf998e386d4b3198326a0a696ebea7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He has now declared it not in the public interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022872379a34fb7455397e45697fbe11067\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have any knowledge of why the decision not to prosecute was announced only yesterday, when it was made at least a week ago, and whether that has anything to do with the absence overseas of the Prime Minister, who was the complainant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c6c76424d4a4c5d92866f0e5bec320c\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have already said\u2014it is becoming a litany now\u2014I have no personal knowledge of the commissioner\u2019s process in making this decision. There is no day-to-day supervision of prosecution decisions made by agencies, including the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022300f4371f72645c9810cd94e0d9c842b\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Crown agreed as part of the withdrawal of the Prime Minister\u2019s criminal complaint against Mr Ambrose, or otherwise, not to pursue all or any of the costs of defending the declaratory judgment application that Mr Ambrose filed in the High Court last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd748de8c92c4fea8f0d93165cfb8e34\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member has now moved from the criminal to the civil and is making reference to the costs application made by the Solicitor-General under his delegated authority after the decision was concluded\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293fbd704417548fa9c992ce529a2d7f6\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Just answer the question!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283eb38a181e7409c85f6bc79ec1c7865\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am just trying, for the benefit of the former MP for Waimakariri, to set it out in primer 1 terms. That matter having been made\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c69c499cbd40929a1890926b87158d\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that the Attorney does not like these sorts of questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198f9887f0014bffa2ff57ba3041db46\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. I am on my feet and some members will be leaving this House if that is not respected. The Attorney-General did not help. It always leads to disorder when unhelpful comments are made. Had it not been for that unhelpful comment, the Minister was answering the question in a reasonable manner. I invite the Minister to answer the question without the unhelpful comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a600de62e94cfbbf067c0c483c1081\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to offend Mr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4e89de7a933420d865d4e0d3d1aa31e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just answer the question, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4537bff798548d3b53d0cba49b38918\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: After the decision of Justice Winkelmann was released, the Solicitor-General filed an application for costs. That has been responded to by counsel for Mr Ambrose. The matter is before the judge, and it would be improper for me to start commenting on those matters in this place. Any decision as to the ultimate outcome of those matters or negotiations are presumably for the lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31583a012e040efbdaa4209e9d68f58\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to do this, but the question was very carefully framed, and the Attorney-General is accountable in this area. He cannot answer in a vague fashion like that and avoid the question. It was whether or not there has been agreement between the Crown\u2019s lawyers, who are accountable him, and Mr Ambrose\u2019s lawyers about withdrawing their claim for costs in the civil proceedings consequent on the withdrawal of the criminal prosecution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d68ab4439eb4789a9b3ed212a918c1b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Forgive me but I am not understanding the member there, obviously, because the Attorney-General pointed out the matter is still before the court, and it would be, in his view\u2014I think he made it clear\u2014improper for him to comment on any matters to do with this issue that is before the court, especially in matters to do with any possible agreements between lawyers that may have impact on the decision of the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247ad2dcc7982486ea7d01fc09b8e0c1d\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The issue here is a simple question as to whether as part of the deal to withdraw the criminal prosecution there was also an arrangement between private lawyers on the one hand and lawyers accountable to the Attorney-General for the other, on whether or not to continue to seek costs in the civil case. There is no reason why the Attorney-General should not answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227630a44305f64922a1b5a866996cc6b4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I would have thought it very obvious. The member appears to be making some kind of possible allegation in his question that such an agreement might have existed. Clearly, the Attorney-General is not going to comment on anything like that, because he would consider it, I would have thought, to be sub judice because the civil matter is still before the court, and in respect of any matter relating to lawyers involved in that civil case the Attorney-General, I would have thought, would consider it not in the public interest to answer. In fact, it is beyond not in the public interest; it is a matter that is sub judice, and it would be inappropriate for any member of this Parliament to get into commenting about those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e16da7b6f8844ce3b865271adad6338a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The sub judice rules are for matters that are before the court awaiting adjudication. The suggestion made by my colleague is that this is a matter of agreement and therefore will not be subject to adjudication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bac5307cd4be4d048444ea64af30a78f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3e03fb9cc7541108a64d75cfdc9de15\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The Attorney can just say no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219862c0366484f00bab74ecfd85ed123\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member is getting into debating this issue. The Attorney-General has indicated to the House that the matter is before the court. The Speaker has to accept that. I cannot go arguing with the Attorney-General that the senior law officer of the land is wrong when he says the matter is before the court and therefore sub judice. I have to accept that from the Attorney-General. If the Attorney-General is wrong in that matter, he has to face criticism publicly for being wrong, but I have to accept his view that the matter is sub judice. Just because it may become the subject of an agreement between lawyers does not make it not sub judice in the meantime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e278e2aef434750b729770d549fe1bf\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If a question is sub judice and therefore ruled out from here, it is your decision and it is not a decision of the Government or its lawyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022394f79a9f5464ea5a78605bdc4a27cf4\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what he just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc5cbdf85a349f2806546ec19ed7033\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We will not have debate across the House. The Speaker cannot have full knowledge of all matters that are before the court. The Attorney-General has a number of advisory roles, and the Attorney-General has made it clear to the House that it is his understanding that this matter is still before the court. As Speaker I have accepted that, and I am ruling therefore that we should not be raising questions about that particular matter that is still before the court, and that is that civil action, as I understand, where the matter is still before the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022221212a9f31546fcb9509269461dfa8f\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have a view, as principal law officer, about the appropriateness of both the prosecuting agency in this case and then the Prime Minister publicly pronouncing on Mr Ambrose\u2019s guilt after the prosecution was withdrawn, despite the failure of the prosecution to meet the test for prosecution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b41aaddad214467af71cf1e0d56dd01\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As will be tolerably clear, the answer is no, for the reason that I do not get involved in day-to-day matters concerning prosecutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223813de8364424506999493bbe78295eb\u0022\u003EWelfare Reforms\u2014Work Testing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002289395d60e17c4384875a94c4d9bdf2bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289395d60e17c4384875a94c4d9bdf2bd\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: How will the Government\u2019s proposed welfare changes give greater flexibility to support beneficiaries back into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002263b3de6380dc43f9a380d27d1ea657c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263b3de6380dc43f9a380d27d1ea657c3\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E As part of the Government\u2019s focus on strengthening work obligations and incentives, we are introducing more flexibility in the part-time and full-time work tests. This means that there is going to be a change in the hours of work someone is required to undertake. There will be more of a range around the 15-hour, part-time work test and the 30-hour, full-time work test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c660e01bbd143948959e58d63aa938d\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government making this change to the part-time and full-time work tests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0489709e8764a4296d681de121fbd43\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The previous policy settings have led to an arbitrary restriction, really, on the range of jobs that beneficiaries could be referred to or are required to accept. We also saw unnecessary circumstances where someone working 12 or 13 hours was still subject to a work test, when perhaps that was their capability for that week and made sense. So this is about backing people into work and ensuring the benefit system has a degree of flexibility around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eaa898a50714d8a8bc578ad7ab27fce\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What trends are we seeing for people coming off a benefit and into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a51a7c3b48c4b6f99bad3416cfe1103\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It would be fair to say that there has been some talk of late around where those jobs are and what has been happening out there, so I thought we would look at the evidence. For example, the household labour force survey says that 62,000 jobs were created over the past 2 years. The ANZ bank job report for January says 30,000 positions are available across the country. Work and Income has 1,300 to 1,500 vacancies coming in each week, quite frankly, from employers, and 3,500 jobs on its books at any one time. Last year 80,000 people went off benefits and into work. That is actually one person for every minute of every working day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c678d272eb5644ae9d51c668522af754\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Corporation\u2014Release of Personal Information\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002284f1e0a4e4be477e8cc69d4c84078b51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284f1e0a4e4be477e8cc69d4c84078b51\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Does she stand by her answers to all supplementary questions to Oral Questions No. 2 and No. 9 yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022146f133176924e6ca51d52d731466420\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022146f133176924e6ca51d52d731466420\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079c9906539746db843a3f75a6e8ac1e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Was the email she received from Michelle Boag received on the basis of a confidentiality undertaking from her to Boag, and if so, what are the details of that undertaking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022730bf8675e394b9b91916d4937727046\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Office of the Privacy Commissioner contacted my office this morning and advised that it is now investigating this matter. I am quite happy to answer the question in the normal course of events, but I am a bit concerned that it might interfere with the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205a1b137195435ab1d19343b3bf9aa8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister needs to make her own judgment about how she answers the question in relation to that. I invite her to answer the question in so far as she feels it appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31b2543d529404aa8749e6cf465dfcd\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is no, and, as I have always said, if anyone thinks their privacy has been abused, certainly by my office, they should make a complaint to the Privacy Commissioner. I understand that the Privacy Commissioner is now investigating. I welcome that investigation. I have been advised that it might well include some forensic investigation of computer records, and, again, I welcome that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad9f48b446f6402691449d022e7b8bea\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What explanation, if any, did the Prime Minister give her for having to directly ask her on two occasions whether she was involved in leaking Ms Pullar\u2019s name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fcf4946b3c84815a1ea75f779f5b9dc\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: None.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220126b1401367428594b8b445f7d7fe72\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Did she or any of her staff discuss the contents of the Boag email with Simon Lusk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204bcc7678cd34d8182f08e7a4dd3f9ae\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225449a07d4a884c65a13bb3e28f52c8e1\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Did she or any of her staff discuss the systemic privacy issues that Boag and Pullar raised with her with Simon Lusk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c62afebaf1c461ebddb15e3a168f913\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f0aab38139d473385664d28c1d63465\u0022\u003EState-owned Energy Companies, Sales\u20142012 Budget Policy Statement Forecasts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00226743ec716c334f5ba79794dc9085d004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226743ec716c334f5ba79794dc9085d004\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Has the Treasury underestimated the forecast lost profits to the Crown from the sale of State-owned energy companies in light of Mighty River Power\u2019s enhanced earnings and dividend announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2beb10b7c23442aacd20ab96e8f17de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2beb10b7c23442aacd20ab96e8f17de\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: No, the Minister does not believe so. The nature of New Zealand\u2019s electricity market means that wholesale market conditions that are positive for one company\u2014in this case, Mighty River Power\u2014are likely to be negative for other companies, including, possibly, some energy State-owned enterprises. This is due to rainfall patterns. South Island lake inflows, for example, this year are low, increasing the electricity wholesale price. On the other hand inflows into Lake Taup\u014D and the Waikato River are about normal. Mighty River Power would therefore expect to benefit from a higher wholesale price and normal generating capacity. Other companies would be negatively affected by the same weather pattern. Overs and unders like this are a feature of New Zealand\u2019s electricity generation system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3b728e6a5849dc9bd3888bc86d7253\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister of Finance read the table on page 6 of the Budget Policy Statement 2012, which indicates that the cost to the Crown per year in 2016 as a result of the privatisation will be a loss of $360 million per year in lost profits to the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274fb9ef1330e48e9beb1372efe5c1686\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure he has seen that table, but the reality is, as the member knows, that there are a number of unders and overs involved in the transactions, and they come out broadly equivalent over the forecast period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415acfd291014dacb3d0946f24480f57\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the increased profitability of Mighty River Power, what guarantee can he offer that this asset sales programme that he is proposing will not widen the Crown\u2019s deficit by more than at least the $100 million a year he has already admitted to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039449484ffc4c0ba1b477dfe66eff9d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I would refer back to my answer to the primary question. I think the member is drawing too much from this particular or single announcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5029a2133e948daa74917695a2b904c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister read the table on page 6 of the Budget Policy Statement 2012, which indicates that the forgone profits as a result of privatisation will be $360 million a year, whereas the estimated finance cost savings will be only $260 million a year, and hence the Crown will be about $100 million a year worse off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf035168cb7a499abaa5449c68e767ff\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure he has read that table, and again I think the member needs to look at the other unders and overs in relation to that table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3beeea870074d518cea2e14016e98ac\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Do the improving profits from the energy State-owned enterprises not prove that Treasury was indeed right when it said that these companies were already operating efficiently under Crown ownership, and what would change under his privatisation agenda, other than the outflow of at least $100 million in profits per year flowing offshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc286ad133c54699bf0a37ec4c13de34\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The profits are not flowing offshore, and we could expect further efficiency improvements over time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9f7c793d2c43c08463e2cc1cbc2c03\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: They will when you flog off the assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262059465f8944ba794ac339db8cfc067\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not correct, Mr Cosgrove. We have stated in answer to an earlier question that 85 to 90 percent is being held in this country, including the Government\u2019s 51 percent share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229417d625af7e449d8dd8f71221f7bcbf\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister of Finance read, again, the table on page 6 of the Budget Policy Statement 2012, which says that the net decrease in operating balance, before gains and losses, will be $94 million a year as a result of the privatisation programme, and does that not mean that the Government will have $94 million less per year in 2016 as a result of privatisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2bbdf02f3d4503b3c3237512757b94\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: My answer remains the same. I am sure the Minister has read the table, and the member is aware that there are a number of unders and overs in relation to those calculations, which are clearly stated in the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228539436762524fcfa49265113eabdd81\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: What are those unders and overs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222a5de8a406744e6bcc379c5069a4db9\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have those tables with me, but I would point out\u2014[Interruption] Well, if he is quoting page 6, he will know them. He does not need to ask me personally. But also, again, the transactions are that the money is obtained by the Crown and then progressively spent from the Future Investment Fund over a number of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ac2c11272d45e9bcbdda12b687fad4\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it is a smart way to run a Budget to sell something that is earning a total shareholder return, according to Treasury, of 18.5 percent per year, in order to avoid debt, according to Treasury, of about 4 percent a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229afcf508a0b645d0b57d0097b9ada9fb\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure whether you buy or sell anything depends largely on the price. I point out that the Government is talking about selling minority shareholdings in these State-owned enterprises. For the member to make that suggestion without any reference to price suggests that he is actually operating on a philosophical view, rather than on any sort of economic view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a50217a9da484afc9c4431e30caac3c9\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister of Finance tell us whether the return on these assets is greater than the cost of Government borrowing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edbd458dbe7b4730a2063c9e1d06bb5f\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member should be reminded of his opening question. In his opening question he was talking about the variability of earnings in these companies. That is the reality of the situation. You actually cannot judge that looking forward; you can make an estimate. But we are confident that it will be a net positive for the New Zealand Government in selling those minority shares, and it will have the benefit of strengthening New Zealand\u2019s capital markets and have the benefit of strengthening the accountability and performance of these companies over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d92a2b2b9eb049a8ac3a5ad7af560171\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very clear and simple question. The Minister talked about many things. He did not compare the return on the asset versus the cost of Government borrowing. That is the substance of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283aca69007614eea9238443a92c98f98\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that the Minister\u2019s answer was not as straightforward as the member\u2019s question, but perhaps the question is not capable of quite such a straightforward answer, because what the Minister said was that if you project ahead, the variations in return and the variations in the cost of capital mean it is difficult to predict which will be the greater. I think that was what the Minister indicated. He concluded, if I recollect correctly, though, that it is the Government\u2019s belief that they will be of similar magnitude. I think that is what the Minister indicated. Now if I am wrong on that, the Minister had better correct me. I accept that that was not exactly as simple as the question was, but then I think one has to accept that the question sounded simpler than it really is. As one projects these things ahead there is significant variability, and I think that is what the Minister was pointing out in his answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230efcd847aed41a3a1919bc4255fe437\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: If the return on this asset may be actually less than 4 percent\u2014the cost of borrowing to the Government\u2014why on earth would anyone buy one share in this company?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade695c8faca43e28e27cc80a16a0fb0\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The assessment as to who will buy shares, of course, will be made at the time the share offers are made. But, again, the projection forward of the income for those companies will be one of the factors in determining not only the number of offers but also the price. The member seems to be operating completely devoid of any consideration of price, which seems a rather strange approach to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022493fdd67e59b4498ace8521b7b775625\u0022\u003EPrisoners\u2014Drug Use\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u00229bf71ded7577419b80dac015dbe7b8af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bf71ded7577419b80dac015dbe7b8af\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What reports has she received about the amount of drug use in prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022937a8e6fb91948e8b06800eb642611a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022937a8e6fb91948e8b06800eb642611a7\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to advise the House that the number of prisoners testing positive for drugs has reached a record low. The latest figures show that only 4.3 percent of prisoners randomly tested for drugs returned a positive result. This compares with 13 percent in the 2008 year, and 34 percent in the 1997-98 year, when testing was introduced. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253bfc67919a46549c35846b6c72ebfc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I ask members please to extend some courtesy to members at the back of the House. Mike Sabin has a big voice, but he cannot get through some of that noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8625280d6064e6f9a698610aa59aee3\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: What factors have led to the decline in drug use in prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347f8bd6aff749c0b950db3e70913bd1\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Since 2008 we have doubled the number of prisoners able to attend specialist drug treatment units, and introduced new laws that increased the search powers of corrections officers and provided new offences relating to contraband. Just last week, three more corrections drug dogs and their handlers graduated from the police dog training centre to help fight contraband in prisons, bringing the department\u2019s team of drug-dog handlers working in New Zealand prisons to 15. This increase in capacity means more dogs to cover each region and should result in fewer drugs getting into prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220306fbaf43954032864d154ace0c9fb6\u0022\u003EBiosecurity Management\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4413268150f4121add4ff1ea9411c40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4413268150f4121add4ff1ea9411c40\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Primary Industries: Does he have confidence in New Zealand\u2019s current biosecurity arrangements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022a47d2578baff4a5db7980f0bbf5404aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a47d2578baff4a5db7980f0bbf5404aa\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Associate Minister for Primary Industries) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Primary Industries: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e9ccbf27f948a7801a909c12f868b4\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances can he give that drug runners and smugglers are not exploiting loopholes and vulnerabilities in the direct exit initiative? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8bbb368130c48d2a151ad45a52b1495\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, I believe that that question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022311adbd16cd8459d9af5fd8bbc60021e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Hang on. If the member calls for a point of order, he has got to wait until a point of order is acknowledged. Point of order, the Hon Nathan Guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227c550bfa8124d6aa759abbcd3a285e7\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This question is down as a biosecurity question. I believe that that member is straying into an area of customs, and that question would be better suited to be addressed to the Minister of Customs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1f352b8ce64c3883a33d48f88064e1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is the sole judge of whose responsibility such an issue is. I do accept that. The member will need to make sure his questions lie in the responsibility area of the Minister for Primary Industries, not the Minister of Customs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d8d6571e904ad8bd94557304ac6d14\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: How can he be confident that all dangerous goods and potential biosecurity hazards entering New Zealand from Australia under the direct exit initiative are detected, when experienced customs staff have expressed concerns that they are understaffed and that biosecurity detection dogs are not adequately deployed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be4d823cd43747aebc00479c0fbc5839\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It seems to me the member in his own question has raised the issue of how customs staff see this thing, and the Minister has already pointed out that the Minister for Primary Industries is not responsible for customs. I fear that we may have a situation where the question has been directed perhaps to\u2014my office would have been unaware of the direction the member wanted to take his question, because it asked only whether the Minister for Primary Industries had confidence in New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity arrangements, for which that Minister is responsible. But he is not responsible for our customs arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220728a4193f834d33b03c88dc8fcf7b7e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If you look at the question, what is being asked of this Minister, who, after all, is the Minister most concerned with primary industries, is whether he, as the primary industries Minister, is someone who has confidence in our biosecurity arrangements. He may not be the only Minister responsible for this issue, but he needs to tell the farming and export community whether he has got any confidence in what is in place now. That is what we have been asking of him. That is why he is being asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216361a239d2e4785b2157e36cb4e5973\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I recollect correctly, the Minister answered that he did have confidence in our biosecurity arrangements, but then he was asked a matter about customs, and the Minister has indicated that he does not have responsibility for those issues. He is the judge of that. If it was an absolutely outrageous proposition from the Minister, the Speaker would intervene, but it seems a reasonable proposition from the Minister that the Minister of Customs is responsible for those matters. I invite Mike Sabin, though, to ask a further supplementary question. I beg your pardon\u2014Richard Prosser! My God! My apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274cfc431b145445c9f721ec243a484ef\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have such a large voice as Mr Sabin. Is the Minister happy to jeopardise $7 billion to $8 billion per annum of New Zealand\u2019s agricultural exports from the South Island, where there are a total of four biosecurity dogs to protect three international airports and six seaports? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4fe9db9153944ae906d3b78ddc906d9\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Dogs, of course, are just one measure in biosecurity. The member might be interested to know that the number of dog handlers has increased in the last 12 months, I am advised. Also, can I go on to say that all other biosecurity screening processes in place\u2014for example, profiling, risk assessment, X-rays, and baggage searches\u2014of course carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1ec738f9f04ef4b869338b295d904f\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter to the Minister dated 4 January this year from a highly experienced biosecurity officer outlining these concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cf2cdf346f041d8ae418f00f9f8bbfc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224655ac0175545f29c8e860d26f8096e\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Is it now National Government policy to not test risk material coming into New Zealand for fear of identifying unwanted organisms or for fear of \u201Chighlighting perceived failings of MAF over clearance, and potentially further alarming stakeholders\u201D, as happened with 2.3 million rogue strawberry seeds in the not too distant past sold by The Warehouse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b348d6f0b3a4d6380079995bd06469d\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: No. He wants to ensure that biosecurity in New Zealand continues to be a world-class system. Certainly, in the example the member has raised about strawberry seed importing, it is worth noting that the Netherlands did not pick up the strawberry seeds in the consignment. I am also informed that the importer did not pick up the fact that strawberry seeds could not come into New Zealand. Also, it is relevant to mention that in a 10-page document strawberry seed was referred to by the Latin name Fragaria. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry is reviewing its internal processes to make sure that they become more stringent in this particular area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce83783d1874e13a5469792ca052994\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister admitted that there were more trained dog handlers than dogs, how long did it take him to train those dog handlers without dogs to sniff the drugs to give him the confidence to provide the answers he gave in the House today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022176e80f5a3b74171aff8b74ef2010782\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: If that member was listening he would realise that sniffing drugs for these dogs is actually a corrections issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94a8c2a2c814b19a172e0a4a156b3d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call question No. 8, David Bennett. [Interruption] Order! The House will come\u2014[Interruption] Order! The Minister had his chance to answer questions. He will be silent when I am on my feet, as will other members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e834a7813307464ab56fe967a34a3aa0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd7716b03cb40a38171fe76da5a4c38\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I can see that this is not going to be a point of order. The member knows that it is not going to be a point of order. He cannot invite\u2014[Interruption] The House will come to order. The House has had some fun, but we have had enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7aef5223b6943a689a4b44919037458\u0022\u003EVehicle Licensing System\u2014Vehicle Licensing Reform Project\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6ee07848f5c40ad826bf7df56fe4af0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6ee07848f5c40ad826bf7df56fe4af0\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What is the Government doing to reduce compliance costs for motorists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdb422e79ac8451cab33b8be45243aa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdb422e79ac8451cab33b8be45243aa4\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Today I have launched the Vehicle Licensing Reform project. This will examine annual vehicle licensing\u2014more commonly known as registration\u2014warrants of fitness and certificates of fitness, and transport services licensing. The current vehicle licensing system has been in place for many years and affects every vehicle owner. The review will look at using technologies to modernise processes and produce cost savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223631968b4190433f81742f7aa82a321e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I hope the member asking the question heard the answer, because I could not hear it for the life of me. I say that it is the Labour benches that are actually making all the noise here, and they will stop. I could not hear that answer. I could not tell whether the answer was within the Standing Orders or not, and this ridiculous level of noise will stop now. I accept that a bit of fun has been had, and that is fine, but it has got to stop. It cannot go on indefinitely. What I am going to do is invite the Hon Gerry Brownlee to answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977f0715c65847e9bf4cd06f91fc646b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9a65ba51da4db79f3584b92361b59b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is on the record, so he does not wish to repeat his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06a36c64dfd4731b8efe590f6be1b3a\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What types of savings could this review identify for households and businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aba28503fe340f49e35331ebcb4a336\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: This reform has the potential to save millions of dollars in unnecessary costs and time for households and businesses. More than 14 million transactions are generated each year by these three systems, which is a huge administrative compliance burden. It is important to note that safety will remain a key priority in considering any changes. Reform work is in the early stages, and there will be opportunities for stakeholders to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b90fd05ef0643c78e9d65088967f400\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022feef121696de42d7bd126f8850aef9d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feef121696de42d7bd126f8850aef9d5\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Associate Minister for Primary Industries):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to seek leave to correct an answer that I gave to a supplementary question from Mr Peters on question No. 7 where I said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228220e14501347df99c31dbd85a8caaf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Leave is being sought to correct an answer. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is no objection. The Minister may correct his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ec2009a571c4286821ec2229047aaba\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I answered by saying it was a corrections issue. It was actually a customs issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078f3dba8ca7490d9bad18aba30d9e01\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226edd10bbbf57496db168b1579f87c981\u0022\u003EM\u0101ui\u2019s Dolphin\u2014Preservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff23e57d80f249e1a40e8ce485d8cbff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff23e57d80f249e1a40e8ce485d8cbff\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: How many adult Maui\u2019s dolphins are estimated to be alive today and can she guarantee that on her watch no more Maui\u2019s dolphins will die of human-induced causes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022c811a89c7d9f47bfb605dd1d9d2459f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c811a89c7d9f47bfb605dd1d9d2459f2\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this month I released new figures from a study conducted over the past two summers that estimates 55 M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins remain. The actual figures are calculated as being between 48 and 69, with a 95 percent confidence factor. No one can guarantee what the member asked for in the second part of his question. We all take the plight of these indigenous dolphins very seriously, which is why we have announced immediate steps to help protect these mammals, but I cannot control nor guarantee what other humans will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac8b95b28ef4d0f85fab7561eccc300\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister of Conservation confirm that the proposed extension to the marine mammal sanctuary will only put restrictions on seismic surveys, and will not prevent the use of trawl nets, set nets, or drift nets, or seabed mining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c6b3e8fa93405f9ec331d6fee290d0\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot give such a guarantee, because at this stage it is only a proposal, and it does have to go through its proper process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af0fdf2b7b7432b96b72a5aa9e04cdf\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was whether the proposal contains this point, not whether the Minister will decide after submissions on the proposal have been heard. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b64bc2cb8542caa1763bc303a06fed\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the question asked whether I could guarantee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bccf39a13e3a4444afc50bba02c318ee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Leader of the House knows better than to interject when a point of order is being heard. Clearly, there is confusion over the question asked. I invite Gareth Hughes to repeat his supplementary question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19d123dd9344eeabf7bbe3ede636724\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister of Conservation confirm that the proposed extension to the marine mammal sanctuary will only put restrictions on seismic surveys, and will not prevent the use of trawl nets, drift nets, or set nets, or seabed mining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d477cbcb7a384495b63a5ef20fbcae5e\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will know, the proposals also include proposals under the fisheries regime that do include a proposal relating to set-net banning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef8de879c1424230b51d71632e7c70f1\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Again, the question was on the Minister\u2019s proposal that she has gone to the public with to be submitted on, not on what the Minister for Primary Industries has also gone out on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb45ff815ca4af7b6ef3c92a8ae706b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Minister, I think, answered that, but pointed out that in other proposals in front of the Government the issues the member included in his question are actually being addressed. That seemed to be the Minister\u2019s answer, to me. The House must not be pulled up with every answer being challenged under a point of order. Members cannot expect to get exactly the answer they want when they ask a question. Often, there are a range of answers to a question and a range of ways of answering a question. I invite members to listen. Just as I ask Ministers to listen to questions, I want members to listen to the answers from Ministers. It should not take the Speaker to explain why, in fact, the Minister has answered the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd00438d03446e4ba6330be9828ee6c\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why will the Minister of Conservation not use her powers under the Marine Mammals Protection Act to implement a prohibition on the use of trawl nets, drift nets, and set nets throughout the entire marine mammal sanctuary in order to protect the remaining 55 M\u0101ui\u2019s dolphins?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224054752307e2454e92e652f64d0d78ba\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: What we are trying to do here is do everything we can to put in place measures to protect what are critically endangered creatures. We are going through a proper process as quickly as possible. To be honest with this House, I do not want to waste a couple of years in judicial review hearings because the process was not done properly or because of political pressure to take shortcuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ef9de3cc79d4f10b03b755e5bee69f5\u0022\u003EForeign Affairs and Trade, Ministry\u2014Cost of Change Management\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae2b09bc4250499d9c41ae6889b82fba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae2b09bc4250499d9c41ae6889b82fba\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What is the cost budgeted for this financial year of the 30 or more positions in the Change Programme Office within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the consultants engaged by the Ministry on the change process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef036c565614619bde5e59ebbf0a242\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef036c565614619bde5e59ebbf0a242\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the 30 positions referred to in the question include both Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade staff temporarily assigned to the change team and change programme consultants on fixed-term contracts. In addition, services are being contracted from a range of external consultancy firms. The cost of all three of these categories in the current year is $9.2 million from the ministry\u2019s budget of $398 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b0ae942c70345dc8cbd5f931ffc5d37\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the $9.2 million that he has invested in what is regarded as a failed change process include the quarter of a million dollars paid to a man in Singapore to come to New Zealand once every 6 weeks\u2014$250,000, which, annualised, equals $1.5 million a year\u2014and an organisation called Change By Design being paid thousands to give advice to stressed employees, such as to get a pet or take up yoga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b6906d10a5a4fe887e23dc9b1737fe4\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The contracts that the member refers to would have been entered into by the chief executive, who has authority to enter such contracts without\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8bfb7848b3949c88228c349c1a72dc7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Minister. I say to the Labour front bench again to show some courtesy to their colleague. I believe he has asked a question in which there is genuine public interest, and I believe members of the House want to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287a2291f91954467b2d904f9bc65df7c\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The particular example that was cited by the member is a contract that the chief executive had full authority to enter into. As he is probably aware, the matter has been raised in a number of media articles in recent times, and I have raised the matter with the ministry accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca5126b921e0465085146f794b953984\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Have 49 out of 53 of his heads of mission written to the ministry on 15 March expressing that they are \u201Cdeeply concerned\u201D that the new business model that he has just admitted spending $9 million on will \u201Cundermine or even destroy\u201D the ministry\u2019s key strengths and capabilities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ed11237f4ba463f98c0d3913a962f4a\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm that statement, but I can say that there have been a large number of exchanges taking place between heads of mission and other staff members, and the chief executive. I have taken an overview of some of those comments, and it is fair to say that many of them are strongly critical of the change programme. That is one of the reasons I decided to issue a 4-page letter trying to ensure that the future discussion should focus on those areas in which change could be constructively considered, and eliminating those areas where further discussion was going to be destructive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb02a9c1d85e4c7bad6f46378e19bfe8\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a letter, dated 15 March 2012 and headed \u201CMFAT in confidence\u201D, signed by 49 of our top high commissioners and ambassadors, saying precisely what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ed2b06e14d4407ba76e6ec4d414d4e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd13225c1a1f48b8bef51f10a0e74e99\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: When 95 percent of his top front-line staff, most of whom he has personally approved the appointment of, say that the proposed changes that he has spent $9 million on will \u201Cseverely curtail \u2026 NZ economic and foreign policy objectives \u2026\u201D for years to come, does he consider that $9.2 million spent on consultants and the change office a total waste of money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0f93ca931a498686803dcb588453a2\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s original question asked for the budget for the year, not for the amount expended so far, and so the figures I have given him are the budgeted figures for the entire year, not the amount spent, as he has just asserted to the House. I do want to say, though, that the heads of mission and other staff members who have made their concerns known as part of this consultation process have been listened to carefully by me, and, from the beginning of this process, I have publicly urged that the ministry leadership should listen to their comments carefully. That is why I have tried to ensure that future discussions are focused on areas where there can be constructive dialogue, and tried to eliminate those areas in which further discussion would be destructive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b08a4140c524f1b8d12e9c001f826d7\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister not consult with his top front-line staff before committing the expenditure of $9.2 million, which he has practically admitted now to this House has been a waste of money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284cd58af500c447bac790e1c05fb0ef0\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The member as a former Minister will know that the process of modernising the practices of the ministry is entirely a matter for the chief executive, and one that he has full authority to engage in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224146ba7dbdae4ed1b8d3b8f25b23b6cd\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister now take responsibility for budgeting for $9.2 million\u2014and he will have spent $9.2 million\u2014on change proposals that he has been intimately involved in from the start, or is he continuing to blame his chief executive officer, who constitutionally cannot answer back to his Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7e1cb9f46d4cfbb31766da371dc4ad\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I have made it very clear from the beginning that this is a change process driven by people who have been engaged by the chief executive. I have conveyed my views\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9bb346951e94024aef7a93f3acef433\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! A member has asked a serious question, and I think the House deserves to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a3794f39e54da7bb333c2aa3d5e161\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The chief executive established the change team to engage in a modernisation project, as he is fully entitled to do. To the extent that I had concerns about elements of that programme, they would have been known in advance of the consultation document being distributed. At the end of that consultation process I thought there were some steps that I should take to focus the discussion going forward, and I took those steps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229464e4a31ac34b779ae0afb6218af8e0\u0022\u003ECensus 2013\u2014Preparations and Availability of Results\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u00229fe770bd91e940baaa8d073c973dc8e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fe770bd91e940baaa8d073c973dc8e5\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Statistics: What information has he received on preparations for the 2013 Census?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1a5f44d6644fb18d95dcd3beb171fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1a5f44d6644fb18d95dcd3beb171fd\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Statistics):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for giving me the opportunity to bring more good news from the department of statistics. I am pleased to tell this House that it is now less than 1 year to go before we will conduct a census on 5 March 2013. The House will remember that the 2011 census could not be held because of the 22 February earthquake. I have been advised by Statistics New Zealand that preparations are well on track for this event. About 7,000 census collectors will be employed to both personally deliver the forms and assist people with filling them out. But for the census next year, the real thrust will be going on promoting completing your census online. We are hoping to get really, really large uptakes with the internet, so the census will give the Government some very valuable information for health, education, roads, public transport, and recreational facilities that will actually inform us for good decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed33ac28750c4c1baccae6c1abdf9545\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: Will the information from the census be ready in time for setting up electorate boundaries ahead of the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd63701db9af4f7aa90fa27d74027b60\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I know this is a question that concerns a number of members of this Parliament. Yes, indeed, census information is obviously critical to the setting of the boundaries ahead of the 2014 election. Statistics New Zealand has informed me that the work it needs to do on the census data will be ready in time. It has agreed to provide that data to Land Information New Zealand by 7 October next year. I know the Minister for Land Information is delighted to hear that information. This will mean the boundaries can be completed and will be ready on time for an election in 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022309ba31ebe9543129ea5c9cca55005f4\u0022\u003ESkycity\u2014Convention Centre\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022e140d793fa1f4fa8a4852ebec35ea2b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e140d793fa1f4fa8a4852ebec35ea2b6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Is the Government considering legislative or regulatory concessions with respect to SkyCity Casino in order to build an international convention centre; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00227f1db4ff27ec4fceb8426453bb9b8341\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f1db4ff27ec4fceb8426453bb9b8341\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E The Ministry of Economic Development is negotiating with Skycity over the form of a potential commercial agreement. While these negotiations are ongoing it would be inappropriate for me to rule in or out what the Government might finally agree to. If there are any legislative or regulatory changes that are required, they will go through the usual public and/or parliamentary process in which that member, of course, is welcome to engage. However, I would say that the overall economic benefit of any agreement would have to outweigh potential negative impacts before the Government would proceed. In the case of the proposed international convention centre, we are talking about a $350 million investment that would bring in 1,000 new jobs during its construction and around 800 jobs once it is up and running and that would inject $90 million a year into the Auckland economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e99a73332c1a416fa6216af8f4d893e3\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister consider any of the following concessions inappropriate: increasing the number of pokie machines, extending Skycity\u2019s gambling licence or lease, reducing taxation on gambling, or destroying part of Television New Zealand\u2019s headquarters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221098330349214b96ba77898c1a91c9d7\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I just refer the member back to the primary question. The Ministry of Economic Development is negotiating with Skycity at the moment, and I am not prepared to conduct those negotiations on the floor of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd896b33ad9447dd934cd2f6685e1a11\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the South Australian state Treasurer has ruled out \u201Clegislative favours for sale\u201D in similar negotiations with Skycity there, can he explain why in New Zealand gambling law is for sale to the same company?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b80bc97c991a475eac1e2abb66bdaab5\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the inference that the member makes in that question. I would point out of course that what he is sort of suggesting is that, actually, if he had applied the suggested Government approach today back 20 years ago, we would not actually have the original Skycity, the Sky Tower, the hotels in Auckland, or the 3,000 jobs today. So I think the member has to be careful, because on the one hand he often asks for the Government to do more to encourage jobs, but pretty much every time that the Government is proceeding and looking at things that will create more jobs, the Opposition in the form of Mr Cunliffe and others opposes those measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec0376777e1440c39a3d9cd10facd16b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister or any member of his staff ever received a chairman\u2019s card or any other redeemable card or benefit from Skycity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244dc197d9eca4604ab7cac822fc77a90\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I would not even know what a chairman\u2019s card from Skycity is. I have received one from Qantas, I think, as a Minister, I am sure, or something along those lines, yes. I do not think Qantas does gambling or gaming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296bc01013af64c2098d144cc4935ed98\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. Can he advise what economic benefits there could be for an estimated 350 to 500 problem gamblers from an increase in the number of pokie machines at the Skycity Casino that would come about from the development of a convention centre, as has been reported today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271891a01dab34810a99cd461e25b3dcf\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I am not sure where the member gets his numbers. As I have pointed out in the answer to the primary question, negotiations are continuing between the Ministry of Economic Development and Skycity, and if there was an arrangement to come to, it would come back to this House and to Parliament to review. But I would say that, again, the important thing is that the overall economic benefit of any proposal has to outweigh the potential negative impacts before the Government will make a decision to proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f09c0a401e547a2966878b190ba5b28\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain to the House the difference between a closed-door negotiation with a casino in exchange for selling the law while receiving pecuniary benefits, and practices that in other countries could be termed corrupt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a26575d90e0481c84ead81993c15b2f\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276621b872a24cafaec14d90f6d2ef15\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddfb160b73e54c5fab5cff3f26068b0a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. No one minds the member asking questions about an issue like this. The Minister has made it clear that he cannot talk about negotiations, but the inference in that question is completely outside of the Standing Orders on a number of levels, and if you were to review Hansard, because I am not repeating it, I am sure that you would be able to see that it is a totally inappropriate question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5bc87119b2d425db48225619487c651\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Earlier in supplementary questions I gave the Minister the opportunity to effectively rule out or deem inappropriate any number of alleged concessions that have been publicly reported as being considered. The Minister has refused to rule out any and has refused in further supplementary questions to rule out the possibility of having received some pecuniary interest. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2c569f2dfa43d6b1abe31cada788a5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273dbb6b22f8d47f6bda83546fa0daa5b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, no, no, order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680ddf7bd4724f279c3a25855e15d808\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s outrageous!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207299577e58541c098611a02d4133e2b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Order! I am on my feet. The Leader of the House should not be interjecting like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02c8003bced480d9efb7b8fe48ded13\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Throw him out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d876d72d81dc454c94bae0c7cfc08bbf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I say to the right honourable gentleman that I am on my feet and he should not be interjecting either. The question, I accept, is right on the margins because the question talked about legislation being for sale, or law being for sale, and asked the Minister to compare that with what might be considered corrupt practice in other countries. I could get on a high horse and rule it out, but it is an invitation to the Minister to give a pretty blunt answer back and I do not want to be preventing Ministers from being able to do that. None of the language alleged corruption in New Zealand. There is no reason why a member in this House cannot ask about possible corruption. If the Speaker was to rule that out, how is that upholding the rights of members of this House to hold the executive to account? So although the question to me does contain imputations that the Minister may find quite offensive, I do not think the Speaker should be ruling it out. I think it is up to the Minister to handle it in the way he sees fit, and the questioner may not have much sympathy from the Speaker where he seeks the Speaker\u2019s assistance in dealing with the kind of answer he gets. So I invite the Hon Steven Joyce to answer it in the way he sees fit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca88fb6d2d9f430fb6cf5096a289057e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I reject point blank the suggestion of the member in relation to the comments he made in that question, including any suggestion of pecuniary benefits, which I do find offensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9405adb39a4434bf13f053df57b243\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can I seek leave to table a document created by the Parliamentary Library depicting the head office and key studios of our State broadcaster, which the Minister wants to demolish to make way for more pokies. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262cff6e2af5a486f89154422a1854516\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Again I say to the honourable Leader of the House, this is a point of order. [Interruption] Order! Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224997e9c64f4a414286b60b74c73c5d52\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document created by the Parliamentary Library depicting the artist\u2019s impression of the Minister\u2019s new pokie palace. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022543cd0f5fb9e450d85ca247146089e30\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think the member has now breached the Standing Orders. To refer to something as a pokie palace I think is just treating the House with\u2014the member had leave to table the first document. I am not putting leave. Because of the way the member treated the House I am not putting leave to table the second one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1b1e37ec9174bfab96728759c6ab141\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225aaf424fbf2445d882a1094b94b669b5\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002252c0e0d0605a4b3daab13f4f97b8fc47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252c0e0d0605a4b3daab13f4f97b8fc47\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. I rise to take a call on the issue of fracking. I want to talk about fracking and Taranaki, I want to talk about the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s investigation into fracking, and I want to talk about why the Government needs to put in place right now a nationwide moratorium on fracking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EOnly several hours ago the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment announced she was upgrading from a scoping report to a full-blown investigation into the subject of hydraulic fracturing in New Zealand. The Green Party welcomes this announcement. We believe that it highlights the risks that fracking poses to New Zealand communities, to New Zealand farms, and to New Zealand waterways, and it highlights why, until the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment can assure New Zealanders that this controversial and risky practice is safe, this Government should implement a nationwide moratorium on fracking. Hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, is the practice of pumping large, ginormous quantities of water, sand, and other toxic chemicals down a well, and sometimes horizontally, with the purpose of fracturing the rock to get the oil and the gas. It is right that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has launched an investigation. It is appropriate. It is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EYet when it comes to fracking, we see that this Government has its head in the sand on the issue. It has been blinded to the concerns of everyday Kiwis, farmers, and communities in Taranaki. It has been blinded by the misguided approach to economic development that this Government is adopting. When it comes to the plan for the country, this Government\u2019s only response is cut it, drill it, mine it, sell it. Those are the only ideas this Government has for the environment and for our economy, to try to lift our kids out of poverty and to deliver prosperity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI asked Minister Heatley a few weeks ago what it would take to justify a moratorium on fracking in New Zealand. I asked the Minister: \u201CWould it take Kiwis getting sick?\u201D, and he said no. I asked: \u201CWould it take communities calling for an investigation?\u201D. We have seen five councils across the country in only 6 months call for moratoria at the national level, and the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Council calling for an investigation. I asked the Minister what it would take to justify a moratorium on fracking. What about water contamination?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Government likes to point to two things. It points to opponents of fracking as extremists. What we are talking about is farmers. We are talking about everyday Kiwis in some of our small towns across the country. We are talking about our regional councils. We are also talking about the allegations that fracking is being well regulated and conducted safely in New Zealand. On this point Minister Heatley is misleading the country, and he is misleading the House, because what we have seen in Taranaki is a series of well blowouts. What we have seen is toxic chemicals, including benzene, ethylene, xylene\u2014the controversial BTEX chemicals featured in the film Gasland\u2014enter the environment and contaminate the water table. We have seen numerous consents being breached. This is why we need an investigation by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, because the way that fracking has been conducted has put Kiwis\u2019 health at risk. The water contamination has exceeded Ministry for the Environment safe levels. The water we have seen come out of this deplorable, risky, controversial practice of fracking is not even fit for irrigation or stock use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn the last week we have seen a new report released by the Colorado Public School of Health showing that residents near fracking wells were more likely to experience serious health problems\u2014even cancer. We have seen reports from Blackpool, from Switzerland, and from Ohio linking increased seismicity, or earthquakes, to the practice of pumping huge quantities of fluid down to where active fault lines already exist. In seismic Canterbury, in seismic New Zealand, this is a significant concern and the reason why so many of our councils are calling for a moratorium.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E This is my challenge to the Labour Party, because the Labour Party is calling for an investigation but there it stops. It acknowledges the concerns but it refuses to call for a moratorium. This is what Kiwis need, this is what we need, to have trust in the safety of our regulations, the safety of our oil and drilling operations in New Zealand. Of the 10 countries that have fracked in their history, seven have either full or state-level moratoria on fracking. The Government cannot dismiss this. The investigation should act as a catalyst for this Government to wake up, to do the right thing, to be responsible, to show Kiwis that their health interest, their water interest, and their safety interest are paramount, not just the interests of the oil and gas industry. What we know from fracking is that we are going to see hardly any jobs, hardly any profits, and hardly any royalties, and the profits are going to go offshore. The Government needs to do the right thing and call for a moratorium.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee51ccc52d024d649ad5a316ba10bc9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee51ccc52d024d649ad5a316ba10bc9c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Here we are with Labour in its fourth year of Opposition and with its third leader, and it still does not get it. It still does not understand where New Zealand\u2019s values are at. No lessons, quite frankly, have been learnt. The faux horror at welfare reforms that we have been hearing from Labour members\u2014the mock shame, the distress that we heard yesterday very meekly from the Opposition\u2014quite frankly says to me that they have no idea where New Zealanders\u2019 values are at when it comes to welfare and their expectations of a Government in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWe have had two oral questions from the Opposition on welfare this year\u2014yes, two questions. That is exactly how important Labour members think the biggest reforms are for this country. Yesterday we had Grant Robertson calling National\u2019s welfare reforms a \u201Cculture of blame\u201D. Let us be really clear: Labour\u2019s record is simply one of shame when it comes to welfare, dependency, and beneficiaries in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet us be quite frank: in the time of the 2000s, of labour shortages, we did see the number on the unemployment benefit drop down. Where did they go? We saw the number of those on the sickness benefit go up by 51 percent\u201451 percent. And during that same time the number on the invalids benefit went up by more than 47 percent. Simply moving people from the unemployment benefit and on to the sickness benefit and the invalids benefit is not actually helping people to move forward in this country, and it is as simple as that. The excuses we heard from Labour at that time as to why we had a burgeoning number of people on the invalids benefit in particular was that that was what was happening internationally. It was all because of what was happening and Labour could not help it. Well, let me be quite clear: under National the number on the invalids benefit, in what, as we know, has been the worst recession the world has seen since World War II, has gone up by 0.3 percent\u20140.3 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ETo give a little bit of context around that, let us be quite frank. Remember that in the 2000s, when Labour was in Government, it moved people from the unemployment benefit on to the invalids benefit, where they would not be work tested. Labour members were simply not looking there\u2014simply not looking there\u2014because that was too hard to deal with. That is what we heard from Labour. We saw that number burgeoning by over 50 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EUnder National, it simply has not gone up, and that is an indication of good policy and good management\u2014good policy and good management. If one cares about people\u2014if one cares about people\u2014one will be actually putting the right kind of policy and the right kind of support around them to move them into work and make a key difference in those people\u2019s lives. Shoving them on to the invalids benefit, ignoring them, spending no money on them, and not even acknowledging that they are most likely to be on that benefit for the longest time is, quite frankly, disgraceful and is a culture of shame that the Labour Party lives by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet us just deal with some of those facts. We are constantly hearing about how numbers have been bouncing around. I will tell you one thing: the numbers on the unemployment benefit may be higher than anyone in this country would want to see but they are the true, honest, transparent numbers, which is not what we saw under Labour. Simply shoving people from one benefit to another so they do not have to be work tested is shameful. We will stand up. We will know, as better managers of the welfare system, that putting the right policies in place to back them is absolutely the right thing to do, and will fundamentally make a change in those people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWe hear constantly from the Opposition that it does not like our youth reforms. Well, we are going to back young people. We are going to back them into work. We will put the support around them that they so desperately need and did not get under Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d3ccc5df07f4655a3d1a20d82458462\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the honourable member, over recent years this applause has become a tradition in this House, but, for goodness\u2019 sake, do we have to have stamping as well? I say to members to please be a little more reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f714f9fa3afe424aa21b49436bc633c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f714f9fa3afe424aa21b49436bc633c4\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The only place young people in New Zealand are being backed by that Minister for Social Development is into a corner\u2014into a corner where they cannot get jobs. That Minister came into this House and talked about a culture of shame. This is from a Minister who could be giving advice to Judith Collins about privacy concerns because she is the person who leaked people\u2019s details into the media. She is the person who played politics with people\u2019s lives. And this Minister is the person who has pulled the ladder up behind her. This is the Minister who benefited from the training incentive allowance and pulled the ladder up behind her so that other people could not get the opportunities she got. I admire Ms Bennett for getting her life back in order and using the training incentive allowance to do it; she should just let other people have the same opportunities that she has had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to change tack for a moment and say that I have just returned from the funeral of Sir Paul Callaghan. I want to put on the record of this House my admiration for him and for his contribution to New Zealand as a scientist, as a public person who stood up for what he believed New Zealand could be, as somebody who dreamt big about New Zealand, and as somebody who contributed as an entrepreneur, an academic, a scientist, a conservationist, and, overall, as we heard today at his funeral, a wonderful human being. On behalf of the Labour Party I wish him and his family all the best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E We have heard a lot this week from the Government, from Ministers, and the first thing I want to get on the record, and get clear for Gerry Brownlee once and for all, is that Finnish is a language; it is not a product you put on wood. That is the most important thing Gerry Brownlee needs to learn today. It is a sad day when Gerry Brownlee\u2019s contributions are the thing that is making the news for this Government, is it not? That is the best that this Government has been able to pull out this week. No wonder Gerry Brownlee is pleased to be leading the news for his comments about Finland, because otherwise it would be more and more of the conduct of this Government, which, frankly, is a tawdry tale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIs that not best exemplified by Judith Collins and what has been going on with the emails sent to her office? The National Party must be a viper\u2019s nest at the moment, must it not? We have got Michelle Boag, we have got Bronwyn Pullar, we have got Judith Collins, and we have got Nick Smith, who has suffered out of all of this. What we want to know on this side of the House is what happened to the email that Michelle Boag sent to the office. I am glad to hear today that there will be a forensic examination of the emails that have come into Judith Collins\u2019 office. What I call on her to do today is to ensure that that examination is of all the emails\u2014the emails in, the emails out\u2014the text messages, all of the staff in her office, all portfolios, and all phone calls that went from that office. We know there are many National Party figures involved in this, with the mention of Simon Lusk\u2019s name. That should mean a lot to, I think, about 17 of the MPs over there\u2014the 17 MPs for whom Simon Lusk remains a close confidant. So we want to know about Simon Lusk\u2019s phone calls to Judith Collins\u2019 office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we really want is an assurance in this country that ministerial conduct is of a high standard. That is what John Key told us we were going to get when his Government came into place, yet time and time again we have seen low standards of conduct from this Government. I want to say, just briefly, before I come back to Ms Collins, that Murray McCully\u2019s behaviour in the last few weeks towards his chief executive has been disgraceful. There is no doubt that change was needed in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, but Mr McCully has washed his hands of that completely and dumped on his chief executive by sending to the media a letter that criticised reform proposals\u2014reform proposals that exist only because Murray McCully wants to cut $40 million from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade budget. What is more, the chief executive cannot fight back in public. That kind of behaviour is disgraceful, but that is the standard of ministerial conduct that we are now seeing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the case of ACC I find it unbelievable that Judith Collins, the Minister, can say that only four people have seen that email and that two of them are in her office\u2014she and one of her staff members\u2014and that she has named the other two people as John Judge, the chair of ACC, and Ralph Stewart, the chief executive of ACC. This is, once again, dropping those people and saying: \u201CIf it isn\u2019t me, it must be them.\u201D There is another theory out there, of course: that Michelle Boag leaked her own email. I do not know how things go inside the National Party, but I guess that could be possible. But that is what is dominating the news headlines: Gerry Brownlee and Finland, and Judith Collins and ACC. What we should be hearing from the National Party is its plan for the economy\u2014just one plan, not 120 points. But it does not have one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022519f5120756448abad8e726b46cade66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022519f5120756448abad8e726b46cade66\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E It will be no surprise to this House that I am a one-eyed Cantabrian. In fact, all the local Christchurch MPs have been absolutely one-eyed in our focus on our city and how we can help it since 10 September. We have mourned the loss of our dead; we have mourned the loss of our beautiful city and many of our heritage buildings; and we have mourned the loss of our unique lifestyle and the normality that all of us had taken for granted pre-earthquake. But also we have come together to support each other. We have worked stoically, shoulder to shoulder, firstly to save people and places, then to fix stuff, and now to rebuild. I hasten to add that we have been supported all the way by the people of New Zealand, supported all the way by the international emergency and disaster organisations, and supported all the way by the New Zealand Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ERebuilding Christchurch is a strong focus of this John Key - National-led Government. Despite really tough times and really difficult decisions that have had to be made since September 2010, I think we have done a pretty good job. Getting the economy up and running was a big challenge, and the Government\u2019s 4-week, 8-week, or even 12-week subsidy got many businesses through that time. I have been thanked continually for the last few months for saving people\u2019s businesses. It has been fantastic to see how strong our economy has been, and how it is rebounding. We are actually pumping out of our port the biggest exports, at the highest level ever, and our unemployment rate is down. We are getting through the repair and the rebuild of residential Christchurch, although it has been agonisingly slow for some of our people as we have had continued aftershocks, which have meant that we have had to go back, reassess, and redo much of the good work that has been happening. Sometimes it seems to be two steps forward and one step back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EBut now, since last week, virtually everyone in Christchurch knows the zoning of their land, and they are somewhere along the road of repair or rebuild. Our institutions are up and running, and although they are facing enormous challenges, they are being really creative and innovative about how they manage them. And then, looking to the future, our schools, our tertiary training institutions, our hospitals, our medical centres, our churches, and our community organisations are all finding new and interesting ways to do stuff, to deliver new services, and to make our city stronger and better in the future. Yes, it has been tough, but we really feel that finally we are getting somewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EAnd last Saturday night the people of Canterbury and Christchurch did something new. The front page of the Christchurch Press said it all. It showed a waving frenzy of Crusaders flags and the headline: \u201CBack in Crusader country\u201D. I love the quotes, in the paper, from the Fraser family, who were among the 18,000 fans who turned up to the Crusaders-Cheetahs game. Mum Fraser summed it up by saying: \u201CIt\u2019s lovely to have something to pull the city together other than a memorial service. It\u2019s just fun, pure fun.\u201D So thanks to 100 days of planning, of construction, of building, and thanks to hundreds of dedicated workers\u2014some who even worked through the night\u2014we could all come together in our new stadium and enjoy a particularly exciting game of rugby against the Cheetahs, and the Crusaders won. The Crusaders are back on their home turf, and to quote from the Fraser family again, and this time it was 8-year-old Damian: \u201CI\u2019m really really really really really glad.\u201D Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7dbd389d0a344fa8bfd9bd6d20f0fd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7dbd389d0a344fa8bfd9bd6d20f0fd6\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It has been more than a year since the earthquakes. The Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery said that he was generally satisfied with progress in Christchurch, but in fact progress is very unsatisfactory and it needs to be a lot better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EPeople are voting with their feet. The Earthquake Commission says that of 100,000 homes to repair, only about 10,000 have been done. Commercial capital is taking flight. Profiteers are having a field day. Stress-related health problems are epidemic amongst red-zoners and orange-zoners. Winter, of course, is coming\u2014another winter of discontent for the city. In the central business district, demolitions are to take up to another 2 years before they are finished, because the rate of demolition is painfully slow. Of 1,200 to demolish, there are still about one-half to go, and some of the biggest buildings are included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIt is difficult to see why progress cannot be faster. The Earthquake Commission has been too slow, as have the insurance companies and the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority. The commission had about half a million land and building claims, but only 41,500 full repairs have so far been attended to. There is a 20,000-person shortage of key tradespeople in the city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EToo little is being done and too late. Central city business owners need certainty. Capital is taking flight. Much good work is being done to develop a central city recovery plan, but when will it be done and who will pay for it? Additional Government financial support\u2014say, over 5 years\u2014is needed to provide a fund for grants and loans to encourage early rebuilding and for council public projects as per the central city plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EBut the red zone issues are the most serious. There have been winners and losers. In one block of maybe 100 houses in Kaiapoi there is no land or building damage, but they are still red-zoned. No insurance claim is possible; they want their land zoned green. The Government is forcing people out of undamaged homes, unnecessarily, but it does not know what to do if red-zoners refuse to leave, either. Rating values of 2008 in Kaiapoi are not enough to fund a new home, and there is commonly a gap of $50,000 to $100,000. People have no means to raise this. No mortgage is available for people on lower incomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EA practical solution is needed. The Government should immediately establish a loan fund for people in the red zone, if they accept the Government\u2019s offer but then find they are unable to fund the purchase of a replacement home. The Government should provide bridging finance of up to $100,000 for up to 10 years at zero interest, repayable upon sale or other disposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ERetirement complexes also have some failed Government policy. Some occupiers have no interest in land, only an agreement to occupy. They get only a minimum sum, as per contract. New Zealand First calls on the Government to use its powers to ensure that the same 2007 value is given to these people as for the rest of the red zone, on the basis that the compensation be provided, firstly, by the complex owner under contract and then, secondly, by the Government to make up the balance. That is only fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIn the orange zone the issue, as we know, is delay. There should have been no orange zone by now, but for some reason there still is. The excuses have worn thin, and leadership and action are needed now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EInsurance problems still abound. The Government\u2019s policy seems to be \u201Cwait and hope\u201D, but insurance cover is hard to get. Some insurance companies have departed, and people cannot find another insurer. New homeowners commonly cannot get insurance, either. The Government\u2019s intervention is essential to ensure that cover is available to all. Insurance companies are taking an unconscionably long time at approving reinstatements, and they appear to me to be using delay as a tactic to encourage cash settlements because that is cheaper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThere is a rent crisis as well. That is out of control, too. Winter is coming and action is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022a72b287e98c5450a8da9a4c44ad1f5e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a72b287e98c5450a8da9a4c44ad1f5e7\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a shame to have to follow the fairy tales of New Zealand First, as it seeks to rewrite history and talk from a very uninformed situation. But what I would like to do in this general debate is to talk about addressing an urgent need around pastoral leaseholders\u2014the high country farmers of New Zealand. It gives me great pleasure to see that the legislative programme around addressing this inequity is coming to an end in this House. It is important that we provide these farmers with certainty, that we provide them with respect, and that we re-establish that sense of partnership that existed previously but was destroyed by the former Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb282f3daec44cfb385b347b715e377\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am just looking at order of the day No. 5, which is this matter; it is a matter that is coming up later in the day. I think the rules are still that you are not allowed to anticipate the matters coming up that day. I think the member appears to be launching into a speech that is anticipating\u2014in fact, welcoming\u2014the legislation we are considering later this sitting day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ab1f38eb984a9f9caf3adf7bcf0254\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s point is valid that members should not anticipate a future debate, but that does not prevent a member from welcoming the fact that it is coming up, so long as they do not get into the detail of the legislation. So I just point out to Colin King that he should not get into the detail of that, but I see nothing wrong in welcoming the fact that it is coming up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a45e4ec5d99447e5a2c4aa1bd6afcec4\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is appropriate to bear in mind that we are very dependent upon our rural hinterland farmers when we consider the significance that Jan Wright, the Commissioner for the Environment, placed on the fragile hinterland. It is also of significance that this farming has been occurring in the hinterland for some 150 years, and on that basis it is very important for those members who are representative of those electorates that they, in fact, are able to find a solution for these people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt is worth bearing in mind that although we have heard a lot from the other side of the House about socialising the costs and yet privatising the gains, it is worth bearing in mind that when Labour was in Government it threw money around with gay abandon. I refer to two particular cases. The first was the $43 million that it paid for St James Station and the other was the $10 million that it paid for Birchwood Station. That has contributed to a high level of uncertainty for those farmers. It is worth mentioning at this time that this relationship that needs to exist between the leaseholders and the Crown is very, very important. It is very, very fragile, and they need to be able to front up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47275aa6eed4cfdbd8d842ee2be960f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The relevant Standing Order is actually absolutely clear on not anticipating an order of the day. I think you were liberal in your interpretation of introductory comments to a general debate speech on the part of the member. He has actually not debated anything other than the Crown pastoral lease legislation and the background to it, in this speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8abfe4e647d448e8c6a3c68acca4bb6\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: There is the third reading on the Order Paper of the Crown Pastoral Land (Rent for Pastoral Leases) Bill. This bill, which my colleague has been talking about the effects of, has been in this House and discussed for quite some time. To assert that no member can talk about any piece of legislation that has gone right through the process prior to it having its third reading seems to me to be taking the Standing Orders to the nth degree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80154907f8b4e6892989d9527f8928a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the solution to this problem\u2014and I accept the points made by both members\u2014is that the important thing is that the member does not get into the detail of the legislation. I think that talking about it in generalities does not anticipate the debate. I have not heard the member talking about any of the clauses of the bill in particular, which he must not do, but I do not see anything wrong in the generality of the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225f92201a5e147d5a62383be0075cd39\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: We are effectively talking about 220 families that are all positioned in the Southern Alps of the South Island, and half of these have actually now gone before the Land Valuation Tribunal. So it becomes very clear that there is an enduring solution. What really does concern this side of the House is the veiled threats of reprisal and suchlike\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022026f3b50cfb64c61af3c3c09bf8fac64\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have now gone to the 220 families and the issues before the Land Valuation Tribunal relating to the legislation. I invite you to read the Standing Order, Mr Speaker. It does not actually talk about the detail of the bill; it actually talks about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022790f718695a54e0b92b5298d1db4afc6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Which Standing Order is the member referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da0c7829a4874f84ad5a4848e62ca12e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The one that has just been given to you by the Clerk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd9ddc9697a4d27aea0e6a6941096de\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Standing Order 110? The member is correct that the Standing Order does not specify the matter of detail, but there cannot be anything wrong with, in a general debate, talking about matters in general. What I do not have in front of me is the bill, so I do not know whether the bill talks about a number of families or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think what the member making his speech must realise, though, is that there is a Standing Order\u2014Standing Order 110\u2014that states: \u201C(1) A member may not anticipate discussion of any general business or order of the day.\u201D I accept the point made by the Hon Anne Tolley that there is nothing secret about this legislation. This is a general debate. What I will be following up on, because this may arise in the future, is to see when this Standing Order came in\u2014whether or not it pre-dates the general debate\u2014because the general debate is a relatively recent phenomenon. To me it would be unreasonable to rule out general reference to matters even if they are on the Order Paper and coming up in debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut I ask the member to try to avoid the detail of the bill because it will clearly continue to cause points of order to be raised. The Standing Order\u2014and we must comply with the Standing Orders\u2014makes it very clear that a member may not anticipate discussion of any general business or order of the day. The Speaker, in determining whether a matter is out of order, has regard to the probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the House within a reasonable time, and the matter is on the Order Paper for debate. I am trying to be liberal and not pedantic because I do not see the problem caused by passing reference, but the member should not get into the detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022841fc7bd04294d87a05f5a3a704aa82d\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: The flow-over from this situation can be viewed within the tenure review, where once again the Labour Party has totally destroyed that feeling of partnership and, in doing so, has set back that relationship a very, very long way. It is a legacy that boils over often when we hear the other side talk about socialising the cost and privatising the gain, when, in actual fact, it is to the contrary and is totally different. When one looks at it objectively one sees that the best solution for all New Zealanders is that we have those families farming in their situations, whether it is a tenure review situation or a pastoral lease situation. So on that basis this side of the House is very, very pleased that it is going to address this issue, that it is going to provide certainty for those families, that it is going to restore confidence within the tenure review situation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab1f6caecbbb40b883176fad7961a361\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know you were somewhat distracted, but the member has just said that that side of the House is very pleased that the House is going to, I think, deal with this issue. You cannot get any closer to anticipating a debate than saying that we have an issue of pastoral leases that the House is going to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de0e2798fda4d078bd5d64e7aad288e\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker, I point out that notwithstanding the member\u2019s comment, the reference I was making was to the tenure review situation in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767f13078be04bd2ba585bf0b6f93fea\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The dilemma I have is that I do not have the particular detail of the bill in front of me as Speaker. The Standing Order should not prevent members from referring to the general situation of Crown pastoral leases, but the detail of the bill is not a matter that should be debated in this debate, because it is on the Order Paper and is likely to be reached this same sitting day. There are not a lot of Speakers\u2019 rulings to guide the Speaker in the interpretation of this Standing Order. It seems to me unduly restrictive because I do not see the problem being caused to the House. That is why I am being perhaps a little unduly liberal in my interpretation of the Standing Order. But I stress to the member speaking that if he continues to seemingly breach the Standing Order he will tend to be interrupted by points of order. I have tried to guide him to avoid the detail of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc80753980c14d5eb037f99682152277\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder if you would just hear me briefly on the question of prejudice to the House, because I do agree that that is the nub of the question. As I understand the Standing Orders, Standing Order 110 precludes specific reference to a debate, or specific anticipation of a debate that is coming, for the very reason that the House is devoting allocated time to it. Of course, we all know that the general debate Standing Order was made after that Standing Order. The general debate Standing Order entitles any member to refer to miscellaneous business. As a member who hopes to speak in the debate later, I know that it is a useful opportunity for me and other members to raise issues that are not otherwise programmed into the orders of the day. So if we are to allow the general debate to be turned into simply an anticipated discussion of things that are on the Order Paper, which we know already are going to come up, then it really goes to the heart of destroying the purpose of the general debate, which is to allow members to just get up and speak about miscellaneous business, not about matters that are on the Order Paper and are going to have the House\u2019s time devoted to them. It is the nub of the purpose of that Standing Order, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a2784ea291e495ebe435660a2575222\u0022\u003EMichael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to make a point of comparison with the speech made by the Hon Paula Bennett in respect of an issue of Government policy that was introduced into the House by way of a bill yesterday, and her articulation of the impact of that on a certain group of people\u2014in this case, the unemployed and those on the sickness and invalids benefits. That is a matter that has a legislative impact and will be brought back before this House within a reasonable period of time, as the Standing Order requires. I suggest that what Mr King was doing was quite similar. This is an issue affecting people whom he represents. It is on the legislative Order Paper, coming up in a reasonable period of time, but I do not think it is unreasonable nor outside Standing Order 110 for him to actually refer in the general debate to the impact of that. At the end of the day, he represents those people and that is his opportunity to articulate the benefits and risks of Government policy to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb130afdd83540108a15c839cc241216\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228482ac38469f48a7b272956e397e95a0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear from the Hon Trevor Mallard and then I think we will rule on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40e1a39d1d348d9b3c975a34816e286\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Dealing very briefly with that point, Mr Speaker, Paula Bennett\u2019s bill is not on the Order Paper for consideration by the House; it is at a select committee. Therefore, it will come up but it is not a matter that the House can reasonably be assumed to get to in the near future. Mr Speaker Smith, you have referred to that matter around the anticipation of debate yourself and have given us a Speaker\u2019s ruling on that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to make, though, is that I think it is fair to say that although there is division on Crown pastoral leases, there is not an enormous amount of rancour about it. But I would like you to turn your mind to a situation where there might be a highly controversial piece of legislation sitting on the Table of the House, something on which urgency might be taken later the same day, something where there was massive division. If members started having the debate on that legislation an hour early, during the general debate rather than in the time that had been set down and allocated for the debate, then our systems would begin to fall apart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EYou might be right. It might be time for a review of the Standing Order. It does leave a little discretion, and one might say that you have, in a common law way, taken a little more discretion than you have been allowed by the statute of the Standing Orders already in your rulings. But for the member to refer to changes\u2014which are part of the bill\u2014around the valuation process in this House is, I think, a clear breach of the intention of the Standing Orders, and although it is leading to only a little bit of disorder now, if it was allowed to continue it could lead to a lot of disorder on other legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022627614db50624d37b6be752969b80f2e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank honourable members for their contribution. In respect of the matter raised by Michael Woodhouse\u2014the interpretation that has been given to Standing Order 110 in respect of how soon a matter may be anticipated to be in front of the House\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 25/1 has sort of narrowed that down to \u201Ccan be reasonably expected that debate on the bill will be reached on the same sitting day.\u201D So it narrows it down somewhat, because otherwise it would be ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut I come back to Charles Chauvel\u2019s point of order, and this is what troubles me. I do not want to constrain the House if there is no mischief being caused. The general debate is a matter of members\u2019 choice. It is miscellaneous business. The general debate enables members to debate issues that matter to them, to their constituents, and that is why I do not want to be overly pedantic in applying Standing Order 110. If other members wish to make comment about what the member says about Crown leases in his electorate, other members are welcome to do that, but they are also welcome to debate the issues they wish to debate. That is the purpose of the general debate. I would be loath to interpret Standing Order 110 in too narrow a way, and that is why I have not done that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt may well be that the Standing Orders Committee should have a look at it, because, as the Hon Trevor Mallard says, the issue may well arise again in the future. If I ruled in a reasonably liberal way today, it might cause a problem in the future; maybe it would be wise for the Standing Orders Committee to look at it before it causes a problem. But I do not want to constrain members in the general debate from discussing issues that matter to them and their constituents, and that is why I have not been pedantic in ruling on the points of order raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI have asked the member not to get into the detail of the bill, and I think by and large he has not got into the detail of the bill, although I accept the points the Hon Trevor Mallard has made that he has occasionally got into some of the issues that are covered by the bill. I am going to rule that way. I am not ruling out the member\u2019s speech at all. He has 50 seconds left and I am not ruling it out, because I think it would be contrary to the progress of the House were I to rule on Standing Order 110 in a particularly pedantic way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd0913ddee44076be42aadc777e4103\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: When we talk about tenure review we talk about a process that the Crown enters into in a voluntary manner with the owner of a pastoral lease to be able to freehold and work through that relationship. It is just so very important for that process to work positively, so that the holder of the pastoral lease is able to negotiate with the Crown in a positive way. That relationship was destroyed under Labour, and on that basis it is just very important that over this side of the House we work up and rebuild that relationship, trust, and integrity with those wonderful farmers in the South Island high country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c576cc8ea9874933a4d8bbfc8bf35eeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c576cc8ea9874933a4d8bbfc8bf35eeb\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier in question time I sought to ask the Attorney-General some questions about his satisfaction level with the conduct of the matter that is now known as the teapot tapes. Sadly, from our country\u2019s chief law officer, we heard significant evasion on answers to the questions that are of high public interest. It was a real shame that he declined to give the House his view on the matter in question, because what the public now want to know is why public resources were devoted to that investigation over the time of the election campaign. It has been a total waste of time and a distraction right from the start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EJohn Key and his complaint caused three police officers to investigate, to raid media organisations, and all this on a supposed matter of great principle. The great principle was that a media stunt staged between John Key and John Banks simply went wrong. And there was no expectation of privacy. All the experts agree on this. No possible expectation of privacy in the circumstances, yet the Prime Minister chose to invoke the coercive powers of the police, not just against individual citizens, although that is bad enough, but against the news media, the fourth estate, during an election campaign. That is the sinister and chilling element of the entire matter, and it is chilling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b946186b6bb4896835985fb982d8a16\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: Chilling! Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ef7fd175fa4e87a7809811dc53d145\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Government Ministers think it is a joke that the media should not be able to do their job because of intimidation from the Prime Minister. All I can say to them is that it is interesting when the Prime Minister is away, because they look more and more like the one-man band they are on that side of the Table, and I hope we see John Key taking a lot more overseas travel, just to show up what a hot mess we see on the other side, rather than the sort of competent Government with high standards that the people were promised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EJust remember\u2014and I hope members opposite will remember this\u2014the Prime Minister chose to take those scarce police resources at a time when the burglary clearance rate was falling below 25 percent; and it is still below 25 percent, for all the trumpeting that we hear from Mrs Tolley and her colleagues about law and order. Only 25 out of 100 ordinary people who suffer burglary in their homes get a remedy. They are unlikely to see the crime solved, because of, inter alia, the fact that the Prime Minister feels he can just call the police out and have his petty and private complaints about a media stunt gone wrong with John Banks investigated and subject to coercive powers. It is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ENow the Prime Minister says \u201CWell, I\u2019ve turned the other cheek.\u201D What changed John Key\u2019s mind? He says it was the letter from the cameraman concerned, Mr Ambrose, but that letter says the same thing that Mr Ambrose has been saying right from the start, that he had no intention of recording the sequel to the media stunt between Messrs Banks and Key. His tape recorder was simply left there inadvertently because of the security situation and the media scrum that ensued when the stunt was called to an end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ENobody likes being embarrassed, but getting the police involved was a total overreaction, and it will have a chilling effect on news media organisations. That will always happen. That will always happen when search warrants are executed on the fourth estate at the behest of the Prime Minister. That is sinister behaviour. It is behaviour that we should all be concerned about if we believe in freedom of expression. John Key might think the police have spare time for this sort of thing, but we on this side of the House know that they do not. This has been a total waste of police time and resources that could have been directed to dealing with the real issues of concern that face New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe saddest thing about the Attorney-General\u2019s evasions in question time today was his refusal to answer the question of whether or not the deal done includes the withdrawal of the costs claim against Mr Ambrose and the civil claim. Taxpayers\u2019 money is at stake, the public deserve an answer, and, despite the Attorney-General\u2019s prevarication, they will have one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e83a75a271de4e2da82d044769e15fd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e83a75a271de4e2da82d044769e15fd8\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and talk in this general debate this afternoon, but before I do I just want to mention in this House a recent death. I certainly send out my personal thoughts and prayers to the Tongan people for the loss of their king, King George Tupou V, who died last week. I was part of the parliamentary delegation up there yesterday for the king\u2019s funeral, so certainly my thoughts and prayers go to the people of Tonga and to Tongans around the world, and certainly to those Tongans in my electorate of Maungakiekie, of whom there are many thousands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI stand today to talk about the welfare reforms that this Government is putting in place. These welfare reforms are an important for several reasons. They are important because the burden of welfare on our economy is becoming great. They are also important because we have identified, as a Government, that welfare is not a long-term solution for our people, and that actually getting people into work is more important for our constituents out there. The background is this: 330,000 people receive benefits. One in eight workers receives the benefit; one in eight workers is not contributing directly to the economy. But we believe that certainly some of those are deserving and should be protected within our welfare system and our economy. One hundred and seventy thousand have spent the last 10 years receiving the benefit. So a great majority of those who are on welfare are long-term dependent beneficiaries, and that is not a good fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe also know that 220,000 kids are living in welfare-dependent families. We see this cycle of welfare over and over again, and one of the greatest things that you can do to break the cycle of welfare in families is to give them a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e200f8eec144168b1cf15f0400a4810\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: What are you doing to give them a job? Where\u2019s the jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022009fc0dad07d43d58164d687ead1ffa2\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: Finally, $8 billion of welfare spend a year is 14 percent of our Government\u2019s revenue, and we know, and certainly the Labour Party knows, and Andrew Little knows, that that is unsustainable in the long run. It is unsustainable for the economy, and it is unsustainable for those families that are living in welfare situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ESo what do our law reforms do? Well, they introduce a new system to support our young people. It is about supporting those young people to get a job, and also upskilling them through education, through training, and through employment. It is about getting them back into work. But it is also about designing the support around young people to allow them to get back to work and to allow them to pick up skills. What we are proposing is to provide budgeting programmes. What we are proposing is to provide parenting programmes to help them move forward in their lives. There is a carrot-and-stick approach here, and it is about strengthening those obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWhat does it mean? Full-time education, training, and work-based learning, at least to a National Certificate of Educational Achievement level 2 qualification, is important, because that promotes their ability to get employed. Undertaking approved budgeting programmes leads to better financial outcomes, not just for those people but for their families. It is about improving their financial outcomes. We all know\u2014we heard from the Retirement Commissioner last week in the select committee\u2014about the issues around financial literacy, and that not just those on low incomes or on welfare but everyone needs to get better education around financial literacy, so that they are able to look after their families better. But it is also about undertaking parenting programmes, getting more kids enrolled in early childhood education, and getting these young children to Well Child checks. That supports the programme that this Government has undertaken and employed around pouring more funding into early childhood education, around promoting national standards for our children, and also around the Youth Guarantee programmes that ensure that those who are falling through the cracks are actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dd6e61a72914fbab7b578370982e8a8\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koe, Mr Speaker, and to my esteemed colleagues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c678dc8a9b2e40a28ca33693132fc0c1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member needs to call, then I have to call the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273badc28cec44f9caccf981fd47481f4\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb8f24e51c042439b5cdfd51b30ee62\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Denise Roche.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u002260e0f2903ed24a2a835be7ed4509fa38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260e0f2903ed24a2a835be7ed4509fa38\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koe, Mr Speaker, and to my esteemed colleagues, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EI am increasingly dismayed by the climate of inequality that this Government has fostered. Quite aside from the short-sighted and punitive welfare reform, which is a debate in itself, the chipping away that this Government has done to workers\u2019 rights and union rights is creating an environment where bad employers think they can run riot. In the last few months we have had strikes by rest home workers simply trying to negotiate a decent pay rate. Many of them are on $13.61 an hour. We have had 1,200 meatworkers locked out by Talley\u2019s, which owns the AFFCO meatworks processing plant in several small towns across New Zealand. And, of course, in the place where I come from we have the ongoing dispute with Ports of Auckland. The thing that these three disputes all have in common is that their workforces are unionised. Frankly, this Government is pursuing an anti-union agenda as part of its strategy to create a low-wage economy at the expense of workers. Guess what, people? This is why people are flocking to Australia, where strong unions deliver sound wages and working conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWhen I look closely at the Ports of Auckland dispute with the Maritime Union I become increasingly worried. The ports have been a highly profitable council asset owned by the ratepayers of Auckland, but the sheer mismanagement of the entire dispute and the hard-nosed approach taken by the port bosses and board to the workers makes me wonder whether they are deliberately running down the reputation and productivity of the ports in order to flog them off to their mates. And they do have mates. The Ports of Auckland board chair, Richard Pearson, is mates with Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka-shing, who was sniffing around, looking for a port to buy in New Zealand in 2008, and had to settle for buying Wellington Electricity instead. The chief executive officer, Tony Gibson, is mates with Maersk shipping because he used to work for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThis whole dispute hinges on the fact that the board and management wanted to make the ports more productive, and we can make the ports more productive, but not by casualising or contracting out the workers. We need a national port strategy so that the shipping companies cannot drive down the prices, and we also need to remove the exemption that the shipping companies currently have under the Commerce Act, to prevent them from acting like a cartel. When you look at the Ports of Auckland\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b20836b6a96347b1aaea006c6be6349d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! When the member uses the word \u201Cyou\u201D you are referring to the Speaker. You bring me into the debate. You cannot do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad36307531b475b8c23ea485acdd7c0\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE\u003C/span\u003E: When one looks at the actions of the Ports of Auckland bosses they do not seem to care about productivity. For purely economic reasons, good managers would ensure that there was a good employment relationship, but, since December, in this dispute they have negotiated in bad faith during the contract negotiations; shown an unwillingness to settle, even when all their demands for more flexibility were met; displayed reluctance to enter into mediation; decided to contract out jobs to private companies, while negotiating the collective agreement; allowed workers\u2019 leave details to be leaked to the media and a right-wing blogger; made a mockery of the facilitated agreement they had reached last Thursday with the Employment Court to go back to negotiate in good faith; illegally locked out workers, based on the port bosses\u2019 unfounded and unproven beliefs that the union members would harm the other staff; and issued a lockout notice for an indefinite period following next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EFrom that list you have to conclude that the management practice is seriously flawed at the ports. Either they are madly incompetent or else they are pursuing the same badly thought-out privatisation agenda that the National Government is. Maybe that is what this Government and Rodney Hide had in mind when they forced the amalgamation of the Auckland councils into the Auckland super-city and removed accountability for our council assets from our elected councillors. This Government is union busting, it is into privatising, and it is anti-democratic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f05da22ab04e43328fdc360847f9984a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f05da22ab04e43328fdc360847f9984a\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Before I start I would just like to acknowledge Sir Paul Callaghan, a very able New Zealander and a man who faced his imminent demise with huge courage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThis is a strong and stable Government that has produced strong and stable government in difficult times, and continues to do so. It is a compassionate Government. I am actually proud to be a member of this Government and a member of Parliament based in Manurewa. It is a privilege to be based in that community. At a quarter to 6 in the morning last Sunday, as I was walking to the Totara Hospice sunrise charity walk with 1,200 residents of our community and the wider community of the south of Auckland, I mused upon what a vibrant and diverse community it is, with people of all ages, all sizes, and all ethnicities. It is a vibrant, diverse community of hard-working people who are ambitious for themselves and their children, with a few who lack a sense of purpose and a feeling of belonging. But this Government will never be accused of turning its back on the vulnerable. We believe that we and our society are judged by how we treat our most vulnerable citizens. Very often those vulnerable citizens are children. Fifty percent of families in our South Auckland - Manurewa community have only one parent\u2014only one parent. Many of those parents do an outstanding job for their children\u2014an outstanding job. But we realise, and any person in this House who is a parent will realise, how difficult it is to raise children, even when you have two parents at home. We realise that if there is one person at home, then, obviously, those families need more help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWe are approaching this issue in a number of areas. One of the areas I would like to talk about is the Social Workers in Schools programme. I have been to many of the schools in Manurewa, and I must say the teachers there do an outstanding job. Many of them do pastoral work far beyond what you would expect any teacher to do\u2014taking children home and taking them to medical appointments. We want the child to have the benefit of the teacher\u2019s expertise and education. We realise that in certain schools social workers play a huge role, helping the children, helping the families, and helping the teachers. As a result of that, we have announced funding to increase the number of social workers in schools who can help the teachers\u2014up to 673 social workers in schools nationally. Many of those will be deployed into the decile 1 to decile 3 schools in the area that I am privileged to work in\u2014Manurewa, Manukau, and M\u0101ngere\u2014to help those children unlock the potential that lies within each of them. It is that potential that this country needs and that those children need, and that potential being unlocked will be to the benefit of all New Zealanders. We have got schools like H\u014Dmai Primary School, Manurewa South School, Manurewa West Primary School, Puhinui School, and Leabank School. Schools like that which hitherto have not had social workers will have social workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003ETowards the end of last year I walked into Wiri Central School and met the headmistress. She was telling me about the programme that we are rolling out, and are continuing to roll out, in South Auckland, to deal with the unacceptably high levels of rheumatic fever in our South Auckland communities. It not just South Auckland; there are hot spots around the country, but this Government is doing something about it. The way it works is that school nurses are deployed within schools where there are a high number of at-risk children. They do throat swabs on kids with sore throats, and, thereby, reduce significantly the chances of that child going on to develop rheumatic fever. Of course, if they find a positive swab, they treat the child with the appropriate antibiotics and thereby avoid the terrible sequelae of the strep throat, which can occur in some cases. Obviously, our Pasifika and M\u0101ori people are grossly overrepresented in these statistics. We have a high proportion of those in Manurewa. Our other strategies, such as improving their homes\u2014making them better insulated, warmer, and drier\u2014will help this as well. Our anti-smoking strategies will also reduce the incidence of this appalling disease\u2014a disease that is a blight on our country. How do we do this? Well, we have to grow the economy. That is another part of this Government\u2019s strategy. We have seen how we have managed to do this very, very successfully, particularly in export-led growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022471408c70f8a4c139d7946ceea516469\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022471408c70f8a4c139d7946ceea516469\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E What a grubby little Government this is turning out to be. This is a Government not just riven with conflict of interest but now absolutely possessed with self-interest and with self-preservation, and it is generating a rotten stink that is being smelt right across the country. Here it comes. It is a Government bound up in its dodgy little games in a shabby little party. The people who are paying the price are the people who need the help the most. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat a tawdry story, as my learned colleague Grant Robertson said. What a tawdry story that ACC is turning into. It is a convoluted web of deceit, promises, counter-promises, and under-the-table utterances. It is a tale of concocted stories and of backside-covering, and we are nowhere near the truth. There is a lot more to come out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe are entitled to know. We want to know because we need to know what happened. The people want to know. Please just tell us what happened. There are far too many questions. Two weeks on from when the story of a massive privacy breach at ACC broke, far too many questions still remain. What did Bronwyn Pullar ask for that led to her receiving the private details of 6,700 ACC claimants? What do you ask for that you get that by mistake? How did the board member John McLiskie get involved? What was he told? Who told him? What did they tell him? What did he know? And, most important, what are his links with the National Party? Everybody else tied up in this grubby little story so far seems to be well ensconced in the National Party\u2019s ranks\u2014senior and junior. What did John McLiskie do when he found out what had happened? Whom did he speak to? Whom did he shoulder-tap? Which political contact did he tell in order to try to get something done about it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EHow did Bronwyn Pullar get to meet two senior ACC managers? We have been asking this for 2 weeks. Can we please have an answer? That is all we ask for. Is it just more National Party sleaze or is there an innocent explanation? Give it to us, please; we are waiting with bated breath. What happened over the nearly 3 months between the December meeting involving Bronwyn Pullar, Michelle Boag\u2014a former National Party president\u2014and the two senior ACC managers and when the story went public in March? What did happen over those 3 months? We still do not know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EHow did Michelle Boag\u2019s message to Judith Collins get out? Who disclosed it? We have had denial after denial and then today, after question time, we had a statement by Ms Collins to the media, saying that she confirmed that her message was printed out in her office but that she will not answer any more questions about it. The finger points to the Minister for ACC. What does she know and what did she do? How did Nick Smith come to have a copy of his letter from 9 months previously 4 months after he left the office of Minister for ACC? What is going on here? What is Simon Lusk\u2019s involvement? And what is Cameron Slater\u2019s involvement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe links are too close; the relationships are too dodgy. We are entitled to know, and that is why a public inquiry is called for. I have no sympathy for the National Party and its apparatchiks and acolytes; they are donkey deep in something that is tarnishing the reputation of a great institution in New Zealand\u2014the institution of ACC, which this Sunday celebrates its 38th birthday. ACC is too important. This stinks to high heaven and we need answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat about the interests of the 2.2 million wage and salary earners who are levied every week to pay for ACC, the hundreds of thousands of good businesses\u2014big and small\u2014that pay their levies to fund ACC, and the registration fees and diesel levies of 3.2 million vehicle owners who fund ACC? They are the people we need to think about and care about, not the backsides of some National Party apparatchiks who do not know what they are doing and who want to sweep it all under the carpet. That is how dodgy this Government has become. It is shabby, it is nasty, and it stinks to high heaven. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EGood people\u2014ACC claimants\u2014are waiting for good decisions on their claims, and they cannot get those decisions, because the whole organisation has been tipped upside down to manage the fallout from some broken National Party relationships. It is a disgrace. The great thing is this\u2014Franz Kafka could not have written this part of it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022433d038f693c462292e20c9215ce1342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022433d038f693c462292e20c9215ce1342\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Debt management and welfare reform are enormously important issues in my electorate of the North Shore. Last Friday, the Prime Minister spent the day with us, and about 4,000 people listened to the message that he talked about. He reiterated that we have a plan. Unlike the B teams and the bellowers on the other side of the House, we have a plan, it is a great plan, and we are sticking to it. The Prime Minister outlined our four key priorities, which we are making absolute progress on. We are responsibly managing the Government\u2019s finances, and we are on target to redress the balance of the books by 2014-15. We are also building a more productive and more competitive economy, we are delivering better public services, and we are rebuilding Christchurch. I absolutely agree with the member for Christchurch Central, Nicky Wagner, that Gerry Brownlee and the team are doing an outstanding job there and it is going very well under very difficult circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EIn our first term as a Government, we made very real progress modernising and reforming the benefit system. Let us take a look at the unemployment benefit, for example. Since Future Focus was introduced in September 2010, more than 52,000 people on the unemployment benefit have reapplied and they have gone through that process. As a result of that, what happened was that 12,500 of them cancelled. If we drill down into that figure, we see that that 6,500 people did not even bother to reapply and to complete the process, 2,500 cancelled for other reasons\u2014quite a lot of them went to Australia we understand, still claiming the benefit, mind you\u2014and 3,389 told Work and Income that they had already found work and they did not need the benefit after all. Is it not a good thing to ask them, to require them, to step up and justify getting the benefit? As the Hon Paula Bennett told the House last week, in the past 12 months the number of people on the unemployment benefit is down by 7,837, and that is following an extraordinary recession. I think that is a sign of an excellent Government doing great work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI agree absolutely with Paula Bennett that Labour has a record of shame. Labour\u2019s record of shame is well known to those of us who have paid attention from the 1980s onwards. It is cradle-to-grave dependency. Some of their happiest times were spent on the benefit themselves\u2014unbridled spending, galloping this country away into indebtedness. When you look at the unemployment benefit, I have to agree with Pita Sharples, a man of great mana. He has said that in the last few years when he looks at people on unemployment benefits, he sees the reduction in mana. He has said that every day people are on the unemployment benefit it saps their pride and their self-esteem. They need to get off benefits for their own good and we are helping them. We are reforming welfare, as I said, by ensuring those who can work do work, and we are supporting them to do that. We are also targeting resources at the people who really need them. Yes, some people do need a hand up, but not a handout for life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe are helping young people to make better choices, and to stay either in educational training or in work. We are simplifying the benefit system and clamping down on welfare, for these are long overdue and well-recognised programmes that are doing the job for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWhen I look at some of the concerns that people in my electorate have brought to me in my constituency office, they have been concerned about people having children while they are on the benefit. I think that New Zealanders do need to recognise that our welfare system is an excellent one, but it is there for those who need it. It is not there for women to continue to breed when they cannot afford to do it. If they bring children into the world and they are only on a benefit, then they need to look carefully at that. It does not need to be a punitive thing, but it does need to be examined. I think we are doing it with compassion and kindness, but we are doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe are taking the courageous step of actually looking at people who have been on benefits for far too long; 170,000 people have been welfare for most of the last decade. The number of people on the domestic purposes benefit has consistently risen over the last 20 years, and at the moment\u2014most disturbingly of all, perhaps\u2014we have 220,000 children who are living in benefit-dependent homes. How sad is that. We are concerned about the children who are born to sole parents who are already on the benefit. Last year alone, 4,800 babies were born to women who were already on a benefit. That adds up to about 29 percent of those on the domestic purposes benefit who have had a subsequent child while receiving a benefit. This is not a great idea. I do not think New Zealanders have the appetite for women to continually do this, so sole parents who have another baby while on a benefit will be expected to be available to work after 1 year. That is in line with parental leave. In my electorate of the North Shore, the feedback that I have had absolutely backs that up. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d30f6d40eedb4b24a3fad5e6b86f7580\u0022\u003EMembers of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022866f325dede948d8962505ee5cf9ac87\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6adba66818740fe9c35ac115170f7a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6adba66818740fe9c35ac115170f7a3\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: I move, That the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Government Administration Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the committee report to the House on or before 31 August 2012. This bill proposes a new framework for setting entitlements for MPs and members of the executive. The current framework is governed by Parts 3 and 4 of the Civil List Act 1979. It has been criticised as lacking clarity, transparency, and independence. In 2010 the Law Commission recommended that those provisions of the Civil List Act should be repealed and replaced by a new statute. In response to the commission\u2019s recommendations the Government introduced this bill on 5 October 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe key purpose of the bill is to establish a system for determining the services to be provided to elected members. It recognises the need for members to be properly supported, but also maintains confidence in the integrity of Parliament. The entitlements that have the most potential for personal benefit and have caused the most public concern in the past are travel and accommodation services. The changes introduced in this bill will improve the independence of the determination of those services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe main feature of the bill is the creation of a new framework for the determination of these entitlements for MPs and Ministers. Until now, those entitlements have been determined by the Speaker and the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services. Under the new framework introduced by this bill, in the future most travel and accommodation entitlements of MPs will be set by an independent body made up of members of the Remuneration Authority plus an additional member with the appropriate knowledge, skills, and experience to assist them in this task. The authority will also determine domestic travel and accommodation services for members of the executive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe cost of international travel, accommodation, and associated costs for members of the executive on ministerial business will be met by the Department of Internal Affairs on the basis of approvals by Cabinet or the Prime Minister, or the Minister with responsibility for Ministerial Services, and will no longer be the subject of a determination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe current voluntary disclosure regime for MPs\u2019 travel expenses has been widely welcomed as improving transparency. The bill builds on this initiative, requiring quarterly disclosure of MPs\u2019 travel and accommodation expenses. The Speaker will continue to be responsible for issuing directions and setting out the allocation and administration of party and member support funding, and the administrative and support services to be provided to MPs, parties, and qualifying electoral candidates. The Speaker will also continue to issue directions in relation to communication services for MPs, and will determine services for MPs participating in the official inter-parliamentary relations programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe existing scheme for MPs\u2019 and Ministers\u2019 entitlements has been described as complicated and confusing. The bill sets out the powers of the authority and the Speaker to determine entitlements to services or issue directions in one single statute. The bill requires them to have regard to the same overarching criteria and principles in exercising their powers, and this is going to reduce the legislative complexity and fragmentation that has dogged the present system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe bill also changes the provisions relating to salary deductions where an MP is absent from the House for long periods without good cause. Under the Civil List Act 1979, only $10 per day can be deducted from an MP\u2019s salary in such situations. The bill provides for a much more significant deduction where an MP is absent for more than 9 days other than in accordance with the rules of the House. In rare circumstances where non-attendance becomes an issue, this provides a much more meaningful and effective way of addressing the problem than is allowed by the current law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes changes relating to rules around entitlements for former MPs who were elected before the 1999 general election. At the moment those former MPs and their spouses are entitled to rebates on a limited number of domestic and international airfares and have certain road, rail, and ferry travel entitlements. The recipients of those benefits are a closed class. The amount currently spent on former MPs\u2019 travel is about $1.3 million per annum. The Law Commission recommended that these entitlements should be set out in legislation, rather than in Speakers\u2019 directions, to ensure that they cannot be extended or increased except by legislative amendment. The bill implements this recommendation. In the interests of improved transparency, the bill also requires the total expenses incurred to provide those entitlements in respect of each former member to be disclosed annually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe bill continues the present position under which the Remuneration Authority determines annuities for former Prime Ministers and their spouses. It removes certain outdated restrictions on the availability of the annuity paid to the surviving spouses or partners of former Prime Ministers. Compared with the present regime, the annuity will continue to be available if a surviving spouse or partner remarries or enters a new relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to how travel entitlements provided to former Prime Ministers are determined. The bill provides that the decision as to what travel entitlements should be made available to future former Prime Ministers and their spouses or partners will be a matter for determination by the independent authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo overall the bill represents a significant improvement in modernising the law relating to elected members\u2019 remuneration and entitlements to services and in ensuring that such entitlements are independently set and are transparent. I extend my thanks to the Law Commission for the work it has done on this matter. I look forward to the bill receiving careful and detailed consideration by both the select committee and the House. A bill of this nature, covering, as it does, the means to ensure that elected members are provided with the services that they require to enable them to carry out their roles and functions efficiently and effectively, deserves nothing less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa919dc68b1448f497e6dccf7a63a0f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa919dc68b1448f497e6dccf7a63a0f6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party will be supporting the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill\u2019s referral to the select committee and, unless something surprising happens, we will be supporting it through. Before the Attorney-General leaves\u2014gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8fb5031fb714f3f971acdd3ca495251\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222578a46fd25466291c14a9e9ea76655\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I did not want to draw attention to that, but I do have a\u2014is there a Minister in the House who is currently in charge of the bill or who can answer questions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f31f89492047959844f53a8926f7b9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a Minister in the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f012dbf4bc4c451e9f284c05a93e9943\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: There is; I think Mr Tremain is a Minister. There are a couple of Ministers. Are any of the Ministers in the House able to answer questions at the moment on the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3bdbed5e24a40a8ad6acc26e551dfe1\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a first reading; this is not a Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022329156a99c384fe5b7b34a6bfa1a3a1e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not, but the member, of course, is allowed to ask questions. Whether they are answered or not is another matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eabe54026db647dcbf9d024670920ad4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The point I would make\u2014and I will make it to the Government whip if there is not a Minister who has got an understanding of the legislation available\u2014is that there has been an undertaking, including with the Business Committee, to consider this bill carefully and properly at the Government Administration Committee. My personal view is that it should not take anything like the period up to August to deal with it. I just do not think it looks good for the House to be putting a limited time on the hearings of the select committee around this bill, which does involve the remuneration and other allowances of members of Parliament. I think it would look better for Parliament if we did not do that. There is an undertaking to deal with it in a proper way\u2014not to delay it, and to get it back as soon as is possible and appropriate\u2014but I think to put an obligation on the Government Administration Committee in the way that has been suggested by the Minister acting for the Minister in charge of the bill makes it look like we are hurrying it through in a way that might not be seen to be appropriate. I just wanted to indicate that it may be better if, in fact, the Minister does not proceed to move the shortening motion, because the Labour Party will oppose that one, and I think it would be a pity because there is an agreement to move this bill forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I think it would be unwise of me not to point out to you clause 15 of the bill and to make sure that you are looking carefully at that clause to see whether or not your vote is to be exercised in relation to this legislation. Certainly, according to the rumours, the conflict between the salaried positions of high commissioners and members of this Parliament is something in which you might have an interest, Mr Speaker, and certainly anticipate having an interest in the period, I understand, very soon after this bill passes. That is something to be looked at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think the Attorney-General summarised the bill well. The Law Commission has done an extensive report on the matter. It has recommended that a lot of the matters that are currently the subject of determinations should, in fact, be in primary legislation. I will be interested in the discussion at the select committee as to whether some of the matters that are suggested to go right into the legislation should be, in fact, left to the new committee that is to be set up, which will be based on the Remuneration Authority and augmented. There is a balance between the clarity of primary legislation and the inflexibility of primary legislation, and I will be interested in hearing from the Remuneration Authority and other public law experts as to how much should be in this legislation and how much should be left to be determined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt is going to be important that a person with appropriate knowledge, skills, and experience is added to that committee. I will be interested in views as to whether or not a person who is themselves entitled to some of the former members\u2019 entitlements is excluded from that position. It is something to be worked through. I think we have found on occasions that there has been quite a lot of debate around the balance in terms of having someone of expertise\u2014someone who understands the way that Parliament works and the requirements on members of Parliament\u2014involved in these discussions, often, in the past, advising the Speaker as part of a committee. They often have a better level of understanding, but it does become an issue if, in fact, they are dealing with matters in which they personally have an interest, if they are dealing with later remuneration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes it clear that the Speaker continues to be responsible for directions around the allocation and administration of party member support funding, services provided to members, the out-of-Parliament offices, and travel allowances for members of Parliament participating in political and inter-parliamentary programmes. I think there is no doubt that it is appropriate for the Speaker to be responsible for those, but I think it is also worth saying that there are occasions when these boundaries become very blurred, and members are involved in a combination of exchange and personal travel. Getting that balance right is important, and making sure that there is not additional, unbudgeted cost to the Crown in a way that is not approved where, in fact, there are extensions is something that is important. It is good that the bill brings together the criteria\u2014and they are specified in the bill\u2014that the Speaker and the Remuneration Authority are required to have regard to in issuing directions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E There is what is, I think, referred to around the place now as the \u201CChris Carter clause\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00d19e63e834c5581c4aa19547fd62a\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s your reference to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bafe199daa5743329fe4ca438a9b50c6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. I think it is fair to say that I did not bring that up. I am not going to claim to be the original author of the description of the \u201CChris Carter clause\u201D, but the suggestion that people can be docked only $10 a day by the Speaker for not turning up to work without leave is, I think, ludicrous. I actually have a\u2014[Interruption] I think Clayton Cosgrove says that Gerry Brownlee should be paid an extra $270 a day to stay away, but I think that might be unkind, although I tend to say that the Finns might think the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EOne of the things I would like to have a discussion about is whether the 0.2 percent is an appropriate amount, and whether we should be considering all the days of the year or whether in fact we should be considering sitting days. What is the balance of parliamentary work versus other work for a member of Parliament? And if a person is just not turning up at all, should we be assuming that they are fulfilling the other duties that they have as a member of Parliament? They might not even be in the country. They might be out of the country. I think it would be worth having that discussion and having a look at whether or not there is discretion in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that will take some detailed consideration at the select committee. There could well be some drafting issues, which my colleague Chris Hipkins will raise about it. But one of the things that has changed in my time in this Parliament is a growth in the transparency of arrangements for the remuneration of members of Parliament for the services that they provide. And although there might be a few of our older colleagues who are spinning in their graves or spilling their gins at the current time, I think, generally, transparency has resulted in very good progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac3a535ecbee4510a0bb390ab0d7b94c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac3a535ecbee4510a0bb390ab0d7b94c\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to follow the two previous speakers: the Attorney-General, who introduced the bill on behalf of the Prime Minister, and, indeed, the Hon Trevor Mallard, who speaks with a wealth of experience on these matters through the long service he has engaged in. I think this will be a very, very interesting bill to have through the Government Administration Committee, and the discussion will be very, very useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe members of this Parliament are truly fortunate in that we are able to run for seats in this Chamber supported by the public purse. We are also fortunate that the people of this nation have shown a similar faith in making that money available through the democratic systems that see us here. It is this faith that the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill seeks to strengthen, because it is probably no news to anybody in the country that we have been through a period of questions over the transparency of the way that we are served in the Parliament through various pay and conditions associated with the job we do. We must never forget where we come from and whose money it is that we are spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI think New Zealand does have an enviable international reputation for being free from some of the financial problems that plague other legislatures, where things are not transparent. A lot of work has been done, though, in recent times by the Speaker and by Government to make things more transparent and to make them more obvious. There has been a genuine non-partisan approach, which is a pleasure to see. When it works in Parliament, it works well. It is that transparent, independent, and non-partisan approach that this bill seeks to strengthen, to increase the transparency around entitlements, ensuring most travel and accommodation entitlements for MPs and Ministers will actually not be set by the same people who could be said to be the beneficiaries, but will be set by the Remuneration Authority supported by a person with appropriate experience to assist. The current voluntary disclosure of MPs\u2019 salaries, travel, and accommodation expenses will become mandatory, so that people have the assurance that we are not doing it just to satisfy a passing whim; it will be part of the job that those figures are produced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI have heard a phrase coined this afternoon, which I do not want to be credited with coining myself: the \u201CCarter clause\u201D. It is not one of my choice, but it probably is appropriate because I think people were stunned to realise that there was a fine of $10 a day for not turning up. Frankly, that is a joke. If I may reflect a personal opinion on former members\u2019 allowances, I often wondered why the grateful nation should continue to shell out after people had left this place of employment. I was a bit surprised by it and I am very pleased to see that that is a contained feature of the past and there is no suggestion that that will be moved into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis bill takes the present steps that have been made considerably further than those already taken. I think there will be good discussions. There will be new questions that come from the submissions we receive, but National is committed to standing by this bill. I am delighted to think it will, hopefully throughout the House, receive support from all parties, so that it is a truly non-partisan bill and not plagued by pettifogging positions of people treating things any differently from the way this deserves to be treated. We know where we come from and this is why I support the bill, and I call on every other member of the House to do the same. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf37dd97c4504d0c9605c89f74dee4df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf37dd97c4504d0c9605c89f74dee4df\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to rise to take a brief call on this Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill. I want to, in a moment, get into a couple of issues with the drafting of the bill, which I hope the Government Administration Committee will be able to clarify. But I think at the outset it is important to talk about the principles that lie behind this first. We have seen a move to a much more transparent system for setting the non-salary components of services and entitlements\u2014if we can use the word \u201Centitlements\u201D\u2014provided to members over the last few years. That has been a very welcome thing. I think the public have welcomed that and I think it has led to a higher standard of accountability within the House, and that is a very welcome thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat we are doing in this bill is moving a step further, which is to institute a further degree of independence in the determination around some of these matters. At the moment the Remuneration Authority already determines what salaries and allowances members are paid; this bill goes a step further and transfers to it the responsibility for also determining travel and accommodation-related matters. I think that is also useful, because those are the matters, as the Attorney-General pointed out when he spoke, in which members could also be deemed to have more of a personal interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt leaves with the Speaker the responsibility for determining matters around members\u2019 support for out-of-Parliament offices and for in-Parliament offices\u2014areas where clearly there is unlikely to be any perception of members having a personal interest in those matters, so they remain with the Speaker. But what it is doing is instituting a further degree of independence in any matters where members may be perceived to have a personal interest, although I would argue in the case of travel and accommodation payments it is more perception than reality\u2014and I say that as a Wellington member of Parliament who does not qualify for Wellington accommodation. I do, however, qualify for travel but have far less need to use it than a member of Parliament who lives significantly farther away than Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will quite happily defend those members of Parliament who do live outside the Wellington area having that support. I think it is essential for them to do the job that they are able to travel freely between Wellington and their home base, their constituency. In some cases members need to use air travel within their constituency, because their constituencies are so large. That is something that we also need to support. If you look at the case, for example, of Rino Tirakatene, the Labour member, he has the entire South Island and a chunk of Wellington in his constituency. For him, travel is essential just to meet the people from one end of his electorate to the other, let alone actually to be in Wellington to execute his responsibilities to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo I think making sure that members still have access to travel services that allow them to do the job is very, very important, and providing some degree of independence in how they are determined I hope will remove any suggestion that members are benefiting personally from the provision of those. I would hate to get to the point where in order to serve a constituency effectively as a member of Parliament one had to have a large degree of personal wealth in order to do the job. This is a House of Representatives, and as such we are going to have people from a diverse range of backgrounds. Some come in here with large personal wealth already, but some do not, and some come, I hope, from backgrounds that are far more modest than that. They should still be able to do their jobs effectively without having to dip into their own pockets in order just to do the job. I think that that is one of the really important principles that should be defended, and I hope by providing some more independence in this process we will be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EHaving said that, providing independence is all very well, but if things go wrong, we are still going to get the blame, so we should be quite open about that. Whenever we get a pay rise, even though the pay rise is determined by an independent body, we still get blamed for that, and I do not think it will be any different when we transfer the travel and accommodation services to the Remuneration Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI do want to raise an issue around post-election arrangements. It is a technical issue but it is one that came up following the last election, and one that I hope will be carefully considered in the consideration of this bill. It relates to members of Parliament who may be returned on election day but then in the counting of further votes are out again. This does not relate to the case of an electoral petition, because there is a specific provision in the bill that deals with those members. This is a case where members are back and then they are out, or they might be out and then they are back. If you are out and then you are back, that is not so bad, because you can get your pay and everything; that is not so bad. But if you are in and then you are out, you actually may be in for 2, 3, or 4 weeks after an election and continue to be paid as a member, and then you might find yourself out. But the provisions in this bill with regard to what gets paid to former members and what they can access dates back to polling day, regardless of whether they have been a member of Parliament temporarily for some period of time immediately after polling day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn the case of support services to members of Parliament this becomes very important. To give the example of an out-of-Parliament office, all of us have our out-of-Parliament offices leased in our own name. These are not leased in the name of the Parliamentary Service. They all have a clause in them that says that the lease terminates 1 month after the person ceases to be a member of Parliament. If the person on polling day thinks that they have been re-elected as a member of Parliament, albeit the narrowest of margins, they are not going to terminate their lease. If 3 weeks later they are out again, they will have 1 week left of the 1-month payment that they can get post polling day but they will still be liable for a whole month on the lease of that out-of-Parliament office. So they will effectively end up paying out of their own personal pocket for something over which they had no control. They lease the office to serve constituents and to provide constituency services for the 3 weeks immediately after the election, and they continue to supply those services, which is fine. Then with only 1 week of their 1-month notice period left to go, they have to pay for the remaining 3 or 4 weeks of their notice period out of their own pocket. That is not fair. It is a minor technical issue. But if a member of Parliament is making the adjustment, having just lost their job, I think we should be fair to those members and make sure we make adequate provision for that in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208ff4e4e89d74cec94aaf6a7e1a994c5\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll call it the \u201CChris clause\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857065c50ea44614b524476133b83137\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am not the person who is affected by it. The \u201CChris Auchinvole clause\u201D, maybe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut moving to the other issue around post-election arrangements, it is to do with the inconsistency in the bill relating to the salary calculation for a member who has stood for re-election but ceases to be a member. In the explanatory note it suggests that someone who is not a Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Minister, or parliamentary under-secretary will be paid at the salary rate of an ordinary member. Yet in the actual legislation itself, it suggests that the member who has not been returned for the 3 months that they will continue to receive their pay will be paid effectively at the rate that they were paid at on election day. So if they were a select committee chair or a whip or somebody who held some other office that was not Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Minister, or parliamentary under-secretary, by the explanatory note they would only be paid at the rate of an ordinary member for the 3 months after an election. But by the actual wording of the legislation, by my understanding of the reading of it, they would be paid at whatever they were being paid on election day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think that needs to be clarified, because around all of these things it is just a question of getting the clarity right. You do not want ambiguity in these circumstances. These are people who have just lost their jobs, they are trying to get on with their lives, and we just need to be fair to former members and outgoing members. We need to make sure that they know what they are entitled to access in terms of their pay when they cease to be members of Parliament, so some clarity around that will be important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces formally in legislation the informal, voluntary reporting regime that we have in place at the moment for members\u2019 expenses. That is something that is being widely welcomed, not just by the media but by the public as well. I think that legislating for that, making that a formal requirement now rather than a voluntary regime, is a welcome step. It is good progress and that is something that the Labour Party will certainly be supporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMuch has been made in the earlier parts of the debate about the absentee MP clause in this. I do sometimes wonder, sitting here, though, whether in fact we should be more worried about some of the MPs who arrive at Parliament, and whether or not we are getting value for money out of them. But those are not matters that are going to be dealt with by this piece of legislation. Those are matters for another day. They are matters for the electorate, in fact, and in 2014, when it returns a Labour Government, I am sure that it will have no qualms about the fact that it is getting exceptionally good value for money from the newly resurgent Labour Party, which it will see post 2014. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bba4f0842f15411ebcf6b045cc98bdbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bba4f0842f15411ebcf6b045cc98bdbd\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. I rise to take a call in support of the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill. The Greens were not involved in the drafting of this legislation, but I think the Greens can take some of the credit behind this bill. The Greens have been champions for transparency in this Parliament for more than 10 years. We have been leading the call. We have been putting our own expenses in the public arena well before the other parties have. We have dragged them, kicking and screaming, but it is great to see this whole Parliament come together now, finally, passing a bill like this that encourages transparency. I will not blow our own horn any more in this speech, but I think it is important to say that we were championing this cause when it was not popular, when we were the only people talking about it. I think in particular Metiria Turei, our co-leader who is in Senegal, I understand, at the moment attending a global Greens conference, would be giving this call, has championed that lead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill does a number of basic things. I will focus on the important issues with this bill. The key issue is that every party, I think, has had its share of less-than-clear, sometimes\u2014[Interruption] We have seen illegal activities by members in other parties, so I think we do have to improve. The key lesson that we learn\u2014whether it be in the UK with the members\u2019 expense scandal there or scandals we have seen in New Zealand\u2014is that sunlight is the best disinfectant. Having an open, transparent regime where the public and the media can investigate is the best way to avoid those scandals occurring in the future. I guess coupled with that what we have to have is clarity. We have to have clear rules that all members understand, and I will discuss that in a little more detail soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe key points I have identified in this bill are the change to the decision making on travel and accommodation entitlements for MPs and Ministers. That is moving to the Remuneration Authority. Along with our salaries, we now have our travel and accommodation there. The Speaker still has a huge number of determinations to make in Speaker\u2019s rulings to do with our offices, other services, funding to parties, qualifying for electoral candidates, and travel services in respect of MPs participating in political exchanges.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E Hopefully, what we have also seen is this place change again with the election of Mojo Mathers, and the debate that had to be had in this Parliament, which is the principle that every MP, be they disabled or not, should get the same level of services as any other member. We know we have a million dollars worth of speaker systems above our heads, but there was quibbling over $20,000 to $30,000 in expenditure for a single member who could not participate. So there is still a lot left up to the Speaker\u2019s discretion and the Speaker\u2019s rulings, but moving the travel decisions will help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe member Chris Hipkins noted that MPs are likely to get the flack when salaries are raised, if they are raised in the future, and I think it is a fair comment. I think it is an accurate reflection of the truth, but I think it is also the halfway house that this Parliament has tried to have. We have tried to take away responsibility for our salaries, but considerable areas, such as travel and accommodation, are still left up to us. What the public, I think, most of all does not want to see is that principle that we are making our own decisions\u2014that we have left the wolf in charge of the hen house, in charge of the decisions. So, hopefully, clarifying this, getting rid of that halfway house, and having all of that given to the Remuneration Authority will help clear up the public\u2019s misconceptions, and we will see less of that backlash if there are salary rises in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe current voluntary disclosure regime for MPs\u2019 travel and accommodation gets moved from voluntary to statutory. The Green Party was the first party in Parliament, in 2009, to voluntarily release all of our expenses to the media and the public. I think it is a good thing, and now we are seeing all the other parties follow suit, and now we are putting it into legislation. We think that is good for our democracy, good for transparency, and good for the public\u2019s perception of MPs, which, to be frank, is not always the best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe \u201CChris Carter clause\u201D\u2014it was named by Chris Auchinvole; I think we will make him the creator of the said clause\u2014is good. I mean, $10 a day is laughable, and it was hardly a sanction at all. I think, again, that it removes the respect that people have for this institution. It is a good modernisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI guess, in particular, skipping through the bill, we think that good changes have been made in relation to the impact of the unfortunate death of an MP on an MP\u2019s spouse or dependent children. We think that makes sense and is a good call. So what we are seeing, in summary, is that sunlight is the best disinfectant. We are taking that approach throughout this bill. That is why we are supporting it. That is why we have called for these measures for a long time. We are very happy that we are seeing them finally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe think we can do a bit more. International travel for MPs is, I think, a big problem that this House is going to have to grapple with. We could have done it in this legislation. The public does not understand\u2014I do not understand\u2014why we are doing it. The fact that both our superannuation scheme and air travel perks\u2014because they are seen as perks, even though I am absolutely sick of airports and sick of flying and I do not see it as a perk\u2014have been in lieu of remuneration, in lieu of salary rises in the past, is not very clear to the public. It is not very clear to MPs. We are sending the wrong message. I think the former Minister Pansy Wong did get caught up in that. There was obviously some impropriety as well, but I think that the confusion did not help. So we have also got this, perhaps, \u201CPansy Wong clause\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI think it would be interesting to undertake a survey of MPs to find out how many MPs actually use the travel privilege for non-work purposes. I think you would find that a number of MPs do not use it. I do not use it. Ever since I entered this House I have never used it. I use it only for work purposes. Where else in the country, in what other sector of the economy, do people get unlimited domestic travel with no business requirement and no checking system? I think the public find it ridiculous. I think it is antiquated. It goes back to the age of steam when we used to arrive here on trains and sail ships. I think we should look at that, and that will also clear up those Pansy Wong - type situations in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party joins the other parties in this House voting for the bill. We look forward to the select committee process. We urge the public to have their say in the select committee process. We agree with the Labour Party that we should not be sending the message that we should have a constrained or shortened select committee period. What we need to be doing is sending the message that we are upfront, that we are going to be transparent in terms of all elements of our remuneration, our privileges, and the passing of the laws to enact those. So we think a long select committee process is appropriate. It sends the right message to the public. We are very happy to be supporting this bill today. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9e424a44c4549f7a39e061ea930fb14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9e424a44c4549f7a39e061ea930fb14\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak on the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill. I think this legislation is about public confidence in both Parliament and politicians. I want to reflect on two incidents that happened recently. I recently spoke to the Waiheke rotary club, and one of the comments that was made at the rotary club was that they saw it as a positive thing that members of Parliament had moved from being the least trusted profession, up one, from 26 to 25. I think that probably shows how long and how far we have to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI want to make a couple of comments generally about the UK expenses scandal. Even though you see surveys, such as the one I have just mentioned, that show that although we might be going in the right direction, we still have a way to go, that was a very damaging thing for the institutions in the United Kingdom. I have previously worked in Government over there, and that was a scandal that saw public confidence in politicians over there drop significantly. I am very pleased to be supporting this legislation, which is aimed at giving greater transparency around the remuneration of members of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI also want to reflect on the fact that I think New Zealand generally does have a pretty proud history of being an open democracy. We were a country that led the world in terms of the Official Information Act, and I think we should be very proud of that. I think that as we are a smaller nation we are generally, as politicians, probably a little bit more accountable because we get around our constituencies and people know us well. But we can always do better. With the advent of social media, in terms of Facebook and Twitter, you get real-time updates of what members of Parliament are doing, and I think that is helping in terms of the accountability and transparency of politicians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EBut if we actually look at the genesis of this legislation, it was the Law Commission report in 2010. I think that in terms of the other genesis and drive for this bill, I know the Green Party has been trying to take some of the credit, but actually I want to give a little bit of credit to the leadership of this Parliament, and in particular the Prime Minister, the Speaker, and members on both sides of the House, who have driven greater disclosure, particularly around expenses. Obviously, that has been a voluntary regime so far, but we are now going to put that into legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI think we have seen a gradual opening up of expenses. We saw in 1999, as well, that MPs who came into Parliament after 1999 do not get travel perks. So there has been a gradual move to have greater transparency and accountability. I cannot stress enough how important that is. I knocked on 10,000 doors, and I can tell you that I think that generally New Zealanders do think we work quite hard. But there are some issues around that transparency and accountability and having very clear and open information about how MPs are remunerated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIf you look at the key changes in this legislation, we have seen\u2014as many members of Parliament have already mentioned\u2014the \u201CChris Carter clause\u201D. That clause brings a significant change in that a fine of $10 per day is now, I think, about $270 per day. What that is saying to New Zealanders is that it is not OK to not turn up to Parliament and that, actually, you should be fined significantly for that. That is an important message to other New Zealanders who are working very hard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other changes within the bill in terms of ensuring that former MPs who served before 1999 and their spouses will continue to receive various travel rebates. Some of this is about clarifying what is already happening. I think it is very important that we are going to see a statutory requirement around the disclosure regime for MPs\u2019 travel and accommodation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on a couple of points that have already been mentioned. Do I think that this bill will solve issues of some members of the public thinking that MPs are paid too much? No, I do not. Do I think it will solve some issues of members of Parliament across the House claiming that people are using their entitlements for incorrect purposes? No, I do not. But what I do think this will do is give independence to our remuneration by having it dealt with by a separate body. It also gives greater transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ESo I just want to congratulate all members of Parliament. I want to congratulate the Prime Minister, who, I think, has led a bit of a charge on this. I want to congratulate all members across the House on supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the Government Administration Committee, because I think it is a very important piece of legislation that cuts to the heart of public confidence in Parliament and politicians. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u002231165d2020c74fe0b2df8b5a79fb86fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231165d2020c74fe0b2df8b5a79fb86fe\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill on its first reading. The legislation, once again, highlights this National-led Government\u2019s commitment to transparency. This bill is the result of the Law Commission\u2019s 2010 report and repeals the Civil List Act 1979. The Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill empowers the Remuneration Authority to decide on the travel and accommodation entitlements for MPs and Ministers. Earlier these decisions used to be undertaken by the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services or the Parliament\u2019s Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThe bill further adds to the steps that the honourable Speaker and the Government have already taken to improve transparency around entitlements. In fact, this will create public confidence in the regime for setting entitlements for Ministers and MPs. Furthermore, up until now the disclosure of MPs\u2019 travel and accommodation was voluntary. This bill will make it a statutory requirement for all MPs and Ministers to disclose their travel and accommodation. This bill does not just ask MPs to disclose their accommodation and travel expenses, it also ensures that in the case that they do not attend Parliament they are penalised, and not just for name\u2019s sake. Earlier the penalty for MPs missing Parliament was $10 a day. This bill increases that to $270 a day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EIt is important the public has confidence in the management of setting MPs\u2019 and Ministers\u2019 entitlements. These amendments, which put more power in the hands of the independent decision maker, will improve the trust. The authority will have members with appropriate knowledge, skills, and experience to ensure that balance is maintained between zeroing the misuse of taxpayers\u2019 money, while ensuring that MPs and Ministers have enough support to support their constituents and carry out parliamentary business. This bill will provide that the Office of the Speaker of the House of Representatives will continue to make decisions on MPs\u2019 entitlements to communication services, travel for inter-parliamentary exchange, and allocation of party and members\u2019 support funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThere is a groundswell out there to take action to improve transparency. The Government is therefore listening to the people and taking action. I support the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill on its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00228b641878870547d283dbe058ed9c73d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b641878870547d283dbe058ed9c73d2\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I support this Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill, as does the rest of the House. Like most MPs, I am very pleased to see this bill come into the House. It seems that there has been a public perception out there that somehow MPs are getting something for nothing, or that they have entitlements way beyond what MPs are worth and that they\u2014the public\u2014do not know about it. There is also a belief, actually, that there is a whole heap of amazing out-of-this-world perks and self-indulgences that we are all lining up to grab. I have to say if that is true, I have not found them yet. But that sort of mistaken public belief is not good, and at times makes MPs feel pretty uncomfortable and upset. So I welcome this new legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe legislation is all about making MPs\u2019 and Ministers\u2019 entitlements more transparent, more independent, and non-partisan. It will be much better if the public knows and understands MPs\u2019 travel and accommodation entitlements so that they can have confidence that nothing is being hidden from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe public were absolutely fascinated by and entertained with the expense scandals of the British Parliament. We found it really hard to believe that British MPs could legitimately have their moat fixed or employ gardeners or butlers on the taxpayer. It turned out that we were right, and four MPs and two members of the House of Lords have ended up in jail. Once we had enjoyed that sort of scandal, the New Zealand public took a look at what was happening in New Zealand and wondered whether they could find anything similar. I think it was to Parliament\u2019s credit that they could not find anything significant. But it did raise the issue of transparency, and this bill has resulted from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe legislation is based on the recommendations of the Law Commission made in December 2010. After the legislation is passed, travel and accommodation entitlements will be set by the independent Remuneration Authority rather than the Speaker of the House, as happened in the past. It will also not allow the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services to make any rules, either. Many months ago the Government introduced a voluntary regime to report on travel and accommodation expenses, and now this bill will make it a statutory requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIt is quite clear that the public expect that decisions around MPs\u2019 and Ministers\u2019 entitlements should be beyond reproach, and putting decisions in the hands of this independent Remuneration Authority will ensure that they will be. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6c9456fe92e46409303e6f8ea10c5e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6c9456fe92e46409303e6f8ea10c5e3\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E The issue of the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill has been well covered in the first reading debate. I just want to reinforce the fact that at the heart of this bill is the confidence members of Parliament and Ministers need to have from members of the public that they are conducting their business in the way they need to, and that there is a level of independence in terms of their salary, which is currently reviewed by the independent Remuneration Authority. But this bill takes it a step further in terms of looking at the services MPs require to undertake their jobs in terms of travel, accommodation, and communication costs as well. So I think this bill is a good move. It has been well discussed today. It is uniformly accepted and agreed to in this House, so I do not intend to take much more time on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI think the interesting thing is that the members of Parliament on the Government and Administration Committee have obviously put quite a lot of thought into some of the details. I acknowledge Chris Hipkins for some of the issues he has raised in terms of making sure that those who leave Parliament after an election are not unfairly treated or penalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI do want to come back to the issue the Hon Trevor Mallard raised in his speech on this bill, and that was around the issue of having a time frame by which the bill would be reported back. The concern he raised was there could be a perception from the public that members of Parliament were rushing this process. There is absolutely no intention to do that, because this is all around transparency, and it is all around the provision of independence. The Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations has agreed and realises it is important that this process be done and done well without a time frame. So there will not be a motion at the conclusion of this debate for a time frame for the select committee to report back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI do want to add, though, that I think it is fair to say that the Government Administration Committee will have every intention of progressing the business, so there will be no intention of dragging the chain, either. That tidies up the issue that the Hon Trevor Mallard raised. There is nodding-around-the-House agreement for that. So I am pleased to conclude this first reading of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u00220ffb850543dd42abbee926b1718e7439\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ffb850543dd42abbee926b1718e7439\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am proud to rise to support the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Bill along with my colleagues, and I acknowledge the cross-party support that it has received. I think it is fair to say that the Green Party wholeheartedly endorses this bill, not just in a grudging way. It represents the culmination of work over a number of years, especially by our co-leader Metiria Turei, to bring greater transparency to MPs\u2019 salaries and entitlements. The Green Party has, I think, set the agenda for this for quite a long time now by voluntarily releasing our expenses and entitlements and publicly encouraging other parties to do the same, so that that has now been adopted as standard practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003ETaking decisions about entitlements out of the hands of MPs will be good for transparency and good for the reputation of this House. We need to deliver a remuneration system that is simple, that is clean, and that is fair. We need changes that the public can have confidence in. It is our responsibility to live up to the standards I think are expected of parliamentarians and to improve the perception of Parliament. My colleague Gareth Hughes touched on this earlier. We do not have a great reputation in this place, and it is very important that we do what we can to improve that perception and live up to those standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Catherine Delahunty said yesterday in a different debate, in many ways we here as MPs, funded by the taxpayer, are beneficiaries and we have to ensure that we are serving the public well and giving them value for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI have heard the view expressed\u2014to explain, perhaps, why this change is so long in coming\u2014that people outside of this House who do not understand or have knowledge of the procedures in here, or what is expected of MPs, will not be in a good position to make decisions about MPs\u2019 entitlements. I fundamentally reject that argument. I think that if that is the case, then it is our fault as MPs that what we do in here is not well understood. We need to make sure that everything we do is bringing greater transparency and accountability into this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003ETo briefly cover what the bill does, most travel and accommodation entitlements for MPs and Ministers will now be set by the Remuneration Authority rather than the Speaker or the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services, and we support that. The current voluntary disclosure for MPs\u2019 travel and accommodation expenses will become a statutory requirement. We think that is a direct result of the Green Party\u2019s voluntary leadership and disclosure on this in 2009, and we are greatly in support of that. The amount that can be deducted from MPs\u2019 salaries for non-attendance will increase from the ludicrous $10 a day to 0.2 percent of an MP\u2019s salary, or $270 a day for most ordinary members of Parliament. We are absolutely in favour of that, as well. We have consistently called for an independent body to have control over MPs\u2019 entitlements and pay, so handing over some responsibility to the Remuneration Authority is absolutely a step in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EIt seems to me very clear that travel entitlements for MPs should be for work-related purposes only, and that is how we in the Green Party choose to apply this rule. I think it is very dangerous to mix up travel entitlements with remuneration, including the international travel subsidy. Travel is not a form of remuneration and it should not be treated as such, so it is good that this decision will now be in the hands of the independent authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI want to thank members from other parties for their contributions, including those members who will be considering this bill at the Government Administration Committee. As a member of that committee I look forward to considering it. I think it is fair to say we will be giving it due attention and dealing with it as swiftly as we can. I also want to thank Louise Upston for her contribution just now saying that there will not be a motion curtailing the process for this. I think it is absolutely right that it has the full, transparent, and democratic process that we accord to other bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI am very proud to stand in support of this bill from the Green Party. I look forward to a constructive debate, and consideration and hearing of submissions at the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b2d2a2f62f54ab28e7038cf0a59454c\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bc83f3b8f764f03bddfd031a72004c2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a50c06ae25b4d38b66545f961bc6173\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002237df0b7253b442be83f7f42783dbc570\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237df0b7253b442be83f7f42783dbc570\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora t\u0101tou, n\u014D reira e te Whare, e ng\u0101 iwi, e ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Good afternoon, honourable members. The House is in Committee on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. The question is that Part 1 stand part. It is the debate on Part 1, clauses 3 through to 33. I recognise the honourable member Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7e39bc4ecaf493bb8cbfa121e674b92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7e39bc4ecaf493bb8cbfa121e674b92\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E And I recognise the Chair, too. I have seen him somewhere before. Thank you very, very much for giving me the call on this bill. Part 1 of this bill is, in fact, pretty much all of the bill. It is all of the substantive clauses of the bill. In this first call I am going to make some general remarks around what is contained in the bill and where it is going, then perhaps move on to some more specific issues coming up that I have concerns about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe first thing to note about this bill is that there are a large number of mainly technical amendments contained within the bill that are essentially around tidying up matters to do with the student loan scheme. The student loan scheme frequently needs legislation like this, because it is a complex beast. The interaction between the tertiary institutions, StudyLink, the Inland Revenue Department, and StudyLink\u2019s predecessors have always caused some difficulties and issues, and from time to time things happen like the Inland Revenue Department deciding to change its computer system, and that means the law has to change. I sometimes think we have got things a little bit wrong in the student loan scheme when that is the case, but there are some matters in here that are of very limited controversy, and we do sometimes wonder whether they really need legislative change and whether there is not some other mechanism that could be used to advance the changes that are in here. Those issues are not going to get a lot of attention. They are to do with things such as changes in the names of the repayment codes and the way in which certain types of earnings are treated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe issues that are going to get more attention, I suspect, in this debate are around the issues to do with the changes to the repayment holiday. Before I come to those, one major issue that has been picked up in this bill is the question of a contact person for a borrower who is overseas. When we look at the student loan scheme and the interest-free element of it, the key element that the interest-free loan scheme has had is that if somebody remains in New Zealand, they will not be charged interest; if they go away overseas, they will be. But we have had, from the beginning of the loan scheme, the issue of what happens when borrowers go overseas. I am actually, in principle, no great fan of the student loan scheme, but since it exists we do need to make sure that there are robust processes in place to ensure that people are making the repayment that they are obliged to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere have been examples of people travelling overseas and not making the loan repayments that we would expect them to make, and that is unfair on other borrowers. So no matter what someone like me or anyone else might think of the student loan scheme in principle, we need to ensure that borrowers who are making repayments do not look at other people, see them, and say \u201CWhy is that person not making a repayment just because they have gone overseas?\u201D. If a borrower is overseas I think it is a reasonable expectation that they will make arrangements to make payments. There will be many parents around New Zealand who, no doubt, will be glued to their crystal sets right now, listening to this debate. They will be saying \u201CYes, I am familiar with that.\u201D I know that my own mother, for many years, received the student loan information relating to my brother, who had long since left New Zealand\u2014he was making repayments, I hasten to add. But parents all around New Zealand will be familiar with the fact that they have remained the contact point, effectively, for their children when they have gone overseas. Many of them are very diligent in making sure that payments are made and that information is kept up to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHowever, what this bill does is ensure that it elevates, essentially, the role of a contact person, and I do think there are some questions about that. I certainly believe that some people, when they see the changes that have been made to the role of a contact person, will start to think \u201CDo I want to be that contact person?\u201D, because this means that they will have regular communication. There will be communication right at the beginning about what their roles and responsibilities are. I do not think the reality is that it is greatly different from the situation now, but I do think it will elevate what that person\u2019s role is. It does beg the question as to whether, over time, there may be some intent to have some liability for that person, but that is not, I suspect, the intent at this time. But I do think it is worth the Committee taking just a little bit of time to consider what it means now for somebody to be listed as a contact point. It will not, as I say, greatly change that role, but it does mean that the person will be contacted regardless of whether the borrower has defaulted on their payments. At the moment that would be pretty much the only situation in which a contact person would be contacted. Now they will be contacted as a matter of course, once the person is listed. A person has to be listed, so therefore it does increase the attention that a contact person will get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI just think the Committee does need to reflect on that. We do not want to set up a situation where, for instance, parents feel that they do not want to be a contact person for their children, because it is going to lead to some kind of increased scrutiny on them. I do not have a problem in principle with having to supply some kind of contact details and contact information, but I do think there are some matters here to consider in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to move now to the question of the repayment period changes that are listed in this particular bill. On the Table are amendments of a remarkably similar nature from the Green MP Holly Walker and me, thinking alike here about the change the Government has made. To clarify this for those watching, the Government is proposing to reduce the repayment holiday, which currently stands at 3 years, to 1 year. The repayment holiday comes into force when someone goes overseas, typically a young New Zealander on their OE. They go overseas and they are not obliged under the repayment holiday provisions to make repayments on their loans. They are accruing interest, because the term of the interest-free student loan scheme is that if you are overseas, you will accrue interest. So they are not getting a free ride; they are actually accruing interest. What the repayment holiday has acknowledged is that New Zealanders have a long tradition of going away overseas, often shortly after they graduate, taking some time to experience the world, and then coming back to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, understood this in 2007, when as a Minister in a Labour Government, he oversaw the repayment holiday period going to 3 years. I want to quote the Minister, because I do think what he said here is important. He was talking about graduates overseas, and he said: \u201CThe reality they all faced was a very massive debt upon their return to New Zealand, which in some cases would be enough for them to make the decision not to come home at all, and our country would be the loser. We needed to take a pragmatic way through this,\u201D\u2014this is the Minister in the chair\u2014\u201Cand, being someone who places great virtue on pragmatism,\u201D\u2014I do not think there is any doubt about that\u2014\u201Cit struck me that the logical course of action was to derive the solution that we have: to extend the holiday period for 3 years, recognising the fact that young New Zealanders take that extended period overseas;\u201D. I could not agree more with the Minister. It is a pragmatic response to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b50e6ae02cf47e08f41b9460558afe5\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Five years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222bd21b5d6ab4fe99895d388cb3a4838\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Five years ago\u2014it has all changed in the 5 years for the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, it was 5 years ago, and now the pattern of movement of young graduates going overseas is actually exactly the same. The country that many New Zealanders go to for their overseas experience is the UK, and the UK allows for 2 years there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ec749921a345a3a1e8a46712e7027f\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: And Finland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce977be64414249994f52084343c8e8\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: And Finland\u2014that is good, Mr Williams. We do have a working holiday visa exchange with Finland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d54b7227544316ad587952f8b7ab0f\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: We used to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea56804160e41ef8f5f8f0ff9308886\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We may not any more, after this week, but we did have it. But typically, most graduates would find their way to the UK, and they will spend that 2-year period, and possibly a little longer; most people know that it is possible to get extensions on those visas when you are away. It seems to me that this change that is being proposed by the Government actually flies in the face of what is the typical behaviour of graduates overseas. That is what makes it wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut it has also been pointed out to the Government that it actually is not going to achieve the things that the Government wants it to do. Treasury told the Government in the Budget documents that there is little evidence that this change will improve repayments. It is actually likely to increase the debt held by overseas borrowers, discouraging them from returning, and therefore increase the annual student loan impairment. That is the very point, and Mr Dunne noted that the pragmatic way through this, the thing to do to actually encourage people to come back to New Zealand, was to leave a period of either 3 years or\u2014and I have got two amendments. One is for 3 years, but we could compromise, Mr Dunne, between 1 year and 3 years, and go for 2 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c1e3ce2eec845a7b2608529ac3749a0\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s pragmatic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf22d1e564bf4eaca21b50045e19fe95\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is pragmatic. There is also that amendment on the Table, because I think that is more realistic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fae787b7a6348a6ae613a07d5c15d51\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc395f3489a24709a995becd0e9758ca\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is more common sense, Moana Mackey\u2014that is right\u2014to actually fit it around what graduates actually do. But we have to bear in mind that Treasury is pointing out that what this is likely to do is increase debt, and therefore discourage people from coming back to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo the two things that we would have thought the Government wanted to do in a bill like this\u2014reduce the debt, and get the New Zealanders who are overseas back home\u2014are both worked against. It was not just Treasury; it was also the Ministry of Education, which said \u201CThis can be expected to have a negative impact at the margin on borrowers\u2019 decisions regarding whether to return to New Zealand.\u201D Simply, this bill is wrong, both in terms of the fact that it does not make common sense and it is also not going to achieve the goals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022573003dca5f64d0e9c37dc54ac972a23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022573003dca5f64d0e9c37dc54ac972a23\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I should take a call at this point, because I am the one common link in the chain that the member opposite has referred to. I want to go back to the 2007 situation, because he made some comments early in his contribution that really go to the core of what the issue is. Consequent upon the then Labour Government\u2019s decision to introduce interest-free student loan repayments for domestic borrowers after the 2005 election and to retain an interest component for those who were overseas, we had the immediate challenge of locating who the overseas borrowers were, and where they were. The member may recall that we had a de facto amnesty at that point, whereby we allowed borrowers to come forward and identify where they were, so we could actually get them into the system, because frankly a flat in Dunedin is not actually a good address for a lot of people in northern Europe, and we had many, many people in that case. What we discovered was that although a substantial number did come forward\u2014around 14,000 or 15,000, from memory\u2014there was a large group that we had not got. We still do not know where they are, yet they still have a student loan responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI guess the starting point that we would all agree on around this Chamber tonight is that people who take out a loan have a responsibility to repay it. I do not think there is any debate about that point. But it is not fair, and I think we would agree on this, to have a situation where some people are being forced to repay and others are not. So you start to move up the scale. What we did in 2007 was to say: \u201CWell, look, there is a trade-off here. If the borrowers will effectively identify themselves as being absent from New Zealand before they leave, we will give them a period of time where they are not required to make repayments.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI remember the quotation that has been attributed to me. It is dead right. It is utterly accurate. And it was a pragmatic solution, because frankly Dr Cullen and I at that point did not have a clear sense of what a reasonable period of time was. We thought that 3 years seemed reasonable. We thought that was a good test of the New Zealand OE. But looking at subsequent experience\u2014and one ought to be guided by experience; I have always found it to be quite a useful concept to value\u2014what we have found is that most people who go overseas who are notified to us are overseas for less than 3 years. Most are actually overseas for less than 2 years. We also found that the time frame of the length of the holiday had little impact on people\u2019s decision about when they repaid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo when you start to think about that; you start to think about the signals you want to send, in terms of people overseas having a responsibility to repay; you bear in mind the fact that already their rate of repayment is about three times slower than that of domestically based borrowers, and that they are our real problem; and when you look at the work we have been doing in Australia to track down recalcitrant borrowers, to make them make payments, and, in some cases, to take them to the court to achieve those objectives, then you have to question the validity of retaining the 3-year holiday period. The conclusion that we reached in the context of the framing of this legislation was that for all those reasons, 5 years down the track a 1-year limit was now more reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to make some comments about the nominated person, because these things go hand in hand. As I said earlier, one of the problems we had was that for a large number of borrowers who had fled our shores, with their last-known address a flat in Dunedin or somewhere, there was no effective way of making contact with them. Parents were not all that inclined, for obvious reasons, to want to dob in their recalcitrant borrowing children. Various other people were not particularly inclined to give us information. So what we are saying effectively is that to be part of the scheme you need to nominate a person who will be a contact point. I agree with Mr Grant Robertson, actually. I have heard many, many stories and seen many, many instances of the papers piling up and being ignored. That is pointless. The nominated person is designed to be a point of contact, so that at least the Inland Revenue Department can go to them and say: \u201CWho is responsible? Where is this person? How can we make contact with them?\u201D. What we have also discovered over the last 5 years is that an increasing number\u2014in fact, a significant number\u2014of our borrowers are in contact through various web pages, the internet, and various news sites, etc., so a lot more focus is going in on that point as well. So I say to Mr Robertson and to others that the argument that we are somehow shifting the goalposts by changing the repayment period from 3 years to 1 year does not fit the current reality, in terms of what people are doing overseas. It actually has no impact, based on our experience to date, on their ability and the timing of their willingness to repay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThirdly, one factor that is becoming increasingly obvious subsequently is that we are not operating here in a vacuum. The United Kingdom has just made significant changes to its rules regarding residency for people coming from offshore, so many of the people who go over for their OE will not be in the United Kingdom for 3 years, anyway. They will not be able to stay there. So the point of giving them a holiday that they cannot fully access seems to me to be a little beside the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeking to do in this bill is to send the very clear signal that there is a responsibility to repay an outstanding loan\u2014to send the very clear signal that it is not a game of how far you get away from New Zealand means the way in which your responsibilities reduce. I do not think it is at all acceptable that we have a really good rate of repayment for domestic borrowers and a very poor rate for overseas borrowers. The argument that it is difficult for them to make contact or that they are a long way away or that they feel out of touch with New Zealand these days\u2014all these things that I have heard in the last few years\u2014I think is utterly unacceptable. The basic commitment is if you have got a loan, you are expected to repay it. What this bill does is seek to reinforce that basic precept. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo the shift from 3 years to 1 year is, in fact, a recognition of reality. It is not going to deter people from having their time overseas. Coupled with the introduction of the contact person, it makes it better for us and easier for the Inland Revenue Department to keep track of where they are. We will see over time a better rate of repayment. What that does is send a signal to those people who have repaid their loans on time, conscientiously, over the years, that actually their sacrifice has not been in vain. It is simply not fair for some people to get away with paying little or nothing, while others diligently, at a time in their lives when they might well want to be doing something else, are meeting their loan repayments. This bill is a\u2014if I can use the member\u2019s term\u2014pragmatic response to the current situation. It is a common-sense solution, and it will work. It goes without saying, as I conclude, that the amendments that he and the Greens have proposed will not be supported by this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b68be6aeb78942fd8345fefd1ac1b85f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b68be6aeb78942fd8345fefd1ac1b85f\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in the Committee stage of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. Labour supports efforts, of course, to make the student loan scheme more efficient and to improve repayment rates. The Hon Peter Dunne has talked about a pragmatic approach to this. We believe that there is a pragmatic approach to this, and we want to talk in further detail about the repayment holiday changes that are proposed, as they appear in clauses 4(b) and 17 of the bill. We have our own proposed amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe changes to the scheme must be aligned, in our view, to the basic principles of fairness and opportunity\u2014principles that National has ignored in dealing with the student loan scheme, in our view, in respect of this particular aspect. Fairness and opportunity must always be kept in mind in respect of this legislation, but we are particularly concerned about clause 17, as I said, which slashes the repayment holiday period for overseas borrowers from 3 years to 1 year. That is a significant reduction of 2 years, and we are proposing that it be put back to 3 years or, indeed, to 2 years if that is a more pragmatic solution that can be agreed across the House. The OE is a rite of passage for young Kiwis, and it is important that those young Kiwis gather the skills they need to return and be successful in New Zealand. They give back to our country when they return, they develop useful contacts, and they mature\u2014all things that benefit us as a country in the longer term. Cutting that repayment holiday from 3 years to 1 year places in jeopardy the ability of young New Zealanders to go on an OE, and, worse, it risks forcing them not to come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI think the evidence presented to us in the Finance and Expenditure Committee by the Inland Revenue Department drew attention to the dodgy nature, if I can use that colloquial term, of the department\u2019s guess about what would happen in terms of repayment. It admitted it was a guess of sorts, and that is not good enough. Both Treasury and the Ministry of Education have indicated that, in their view, this change will in fact increase obligations on people, as they will decide to stay overseas. Part of the evidence the Inland Revenue Department presented to us was that it had done a survey through the Kiwi Expat Association, the KEA network, that suggested most young Kiwis stay overseas on their OE for about 3 to 5 years, but also that it takes between 12 and 18 months to secure meaningful employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EA lot of Kiwis go overseas and they will work bar jobs, they will do what it takes to make ends meet, but when they are looking for a professional career or they are looking for the kind of work that they want to be based in long term, it takes them a little bit longer to get there. I submit that cutting them off from their OE, from their repayment holiday, before they have secured that meaningful work will force many of them to stay in those jobs, which are not the jobs that they want to contribute to long term. It will cut them short from developing the contacts and other experiences that they need to contribute as much as they can to the New Zealand economy in the years that follow their return. Worst of all, it does risk forcing them not to come back. If they then find that their debt mounts because they have not yet secured that most meaningful employment, they are more likely not to come back, and that is in line with the broad opinion expressed by Treasury and by the Ministry of Education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to come back to what these student loans are here for. Presumably, their purpose is to provide access to tertiary education, not to provide barriers. That context is important, because the clause in the bill that takes their repayment holiday from 3 years to 1 year is in fact presenting another cost barrier as those costs mount. I had the privilege to work in Treasury a number of years ago on a study that looked at the returns on education, and one of the important conclusions of that relates directly to this. It relates to the barriers to access to tertiary education. There are studies overseas, and there have been significant studies, that show that those from lower socio-economic backgrounds overestimate the costs of education by many more times than those from more privileged backgrounds. I will give the exact numbers\u2014no, I do not have them with me, but the order of magnitude is about right. Those from wealthier backgrounds overestimate the costs by about three times and underestimate the returns by about 10 times. That is because people do not generally understand the nature of compounding interest. Those from less privileged backgrounds actually overestimate the costs by something like 10 times and they underestimate the returns by something like 30 times, so it is a much more significant problem. This has a further implication. When we add this already existing problem of perception of the costs of, and barriers to, access to tertiary education to the Government\u2019s proposal to reduce the repayment holiday, we have one further barrier in the way of those who would undertake tertiary education for their own good, for their own betterment, for the betterment of the lot of their family, and, ultimately, for the good of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe project at Treasury covered a number of other things that also bear direct interest to this particular clause. We were asked to spend the $10 billion metaphorically that was attributed to tertiary education at that time as best we could, and lay out what that might involve. That involved looking at governance arrangements, whether the returns on degrees were better than those on diplomas, and whether the institutions we have currently serve us well. What we found, theoretically at least, was that the returns on a degree are phenomenal for our country. So those people who undertake tertiary study benefit our broader well-being as a country. They bring revenue to our country. They are likely to operate in a way that means they will be good taxpayers in the future. If we present barriers to people getting degrees, we are foolish. So those who are from lower socio-economic backgrounds who would find a barrier in the student loan legislation and, indeed, in taking on a student loan should be encouraged. There is Nobel Prize - winning work on this. They should be encouraged to undertake tertiary research, even if that means that the State pays for all of their education, not just the loan but for all of their education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo this move to reduce the repayment holiday moves in exactly the wrong direction for us as a country. We want to make tertiary education more accessible, not less. What this bill does and what Treasury effectively says is that it puts one more barrier in place for people who want to undertake tertiary education. It is working for those who are privileged, who will be able to undertake tertiary education anyway, but it works against those who perceive a barrier to getting into the tertiary sector. To finish, I want to suggest that we should amend clause 4(b) and the enactment clause, clause 17, to enable that repayment holiday to stay at 3 years, for the good of all of us in our country. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022facfae5c9a1741909b8ba16e1f851eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022facfae5c9a1741909b8ba16e1f851eee\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to speak on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. Can I discuss in this Committee the issue of fairness and opportunity raised by the previous speaker, Dr David Clark. Here are some small facts. When we are considering the clauses of this bill, we need to keep in mind that the Government lent $1.6 billion last year; it had $690 million paid back. The current value of new lending is 54c, and the Government writes down 45c of every dollar lent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAs of June last year overseas borrowers of these student loans, which I absolutely support, represented 15 percent of all of those students in New Zealand who took out student loans. Fifty percent of that 15 percent were in default, and those who were in default owed 70 percent of the money that was overdue. That is why this bill has been put in place, and I commend the Minister of Revenue for doing so. When we think about the fairness, which the previous speaker spoke of, it is worth keeping in mind that the median repayment time for overseas-based borrowers is 14.1 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d74a63dec8304098a82b4989404f0be0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1b89a5125d4c16a6b3a0e43e4f883f\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: It is 14.1 years\u2014compare that with borrowers here in New Zealand, and you are talking 5.2 years. If you are going to borrow somebody\u2019s money and you are thinking about fairness, keep in mind that that money came from a taxpayer\u2019s pocket. Many of them are not wealthy. Many of them are genuine, hard-working people. If you are going to borrow somebody\u2019s money, you have got two choices: one is you pay the money back; the other is you default. It is not acceptable for a borrower to think that they can hide overseas. If I took the money it is not acceptable that I should think that I should be able to go overseas, completely disappear, and have no obligation to pay it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222724ddc44bd6482488a9aade359388d4\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: You wouldn\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659662af127e4ed4a37fd0127fd47b35\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Not that I would do that, and I am sure Chris Auchinvole would not do that\u2014although he does try to hide on the West Coast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIt is really important to think about this issue of fairness. If you are going to take money, it does not grow on trees. It comes out of other people\u2019s pockets, and it needs to be repaid. As a community, we are giving a good opportunity to young people to educate themselves, and what I can say to this Committee is that that money has to be paid back, and if they do not pay it back it is unfair. If the borrowers do not pay it back, if they disappear off and they think they can have an extended 15-year payment holiday, then you have got to think about whether that is fair and reasonable to the person they borrowed it from. I do not believe it is. That is why I absolutely support this bill, and that is why I support clauses 1 to 33. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c02dfeac5e9347979c7801e841b90491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c02dfeac5e9347979c7801e841b90491\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call in this Committee stage of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill, and I am proud to move an amendment to this bill via my first Supplementary Order Paper in this House. I spoke yesterday in the second reading debate about the Green Party\u2019s concerns about this bill, particularly our concern about reducing the duration of the repayment holiday for overseas borrowers from 3 years to 1 year. So I am very pleased to move an amendment today to retain the maximum duration of the repayment holiday at 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI am also pleased to see that great minds think alike and that Labour has also moved substantively similar amendments. I hope that Labour will be supporting mine. I also challenge the Labour Party, if these amendments that we have both proposed are defeated in this Committee stage tonight, to vote against the bill when it comes up for the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI would like to revisit why we have a 3-year repayment holiday in the first place. A repayment holiday is an automatic suspension from the repayment obligations of your student loan while you are living overseas. A borrower still accrues interest but is not required to make repayments and, therefore, cannot fall into arrears. This is important, because, as was noted in the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s report, a typical borrower overseas may face interest and arrears obligations after a repayment holiday that amount to two to three times the original value of their loan, and that could militate against the likelihood of their ever returning to New Zealand or repaying their loan. It is very important that we get policy settings right\u2014policy settings that incentivise people to, firstly, pay off their loans and, secondly, return to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E It has been quoted extensively in the debate on this bill, but I think it is worth repeating once again. The reasons that Minister Dunne had for introducing the 3-year repayment holiday in 2007 are no less relevant in 2012, and those reasons are to help remove a potential disincentive to skilled New Zealanders from returning home. We have heard the quote: \u201CThe reality they all faced was a very massive debt upon their return to New Zealand, which in some cases would be enough for them to make the decision not to come home at all, and our country would be the loser.\u201D That is still the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI want to address the Minister\u2019s contribution earlier. He said that 5 years is a long time, that things have changed since then, and that it is a recognition of reality. Well, I sat in on the select committee while it was hearing evidence on this bill, and we heard from officials that very little research has been done on the impact of having a 3-year repayment holiday. It has been only 5 years since it was introduced, so there has been only one full 3-year period for people within that 5 years to take a repayment holiday. There has been very little research to address what impact it actually has on borrowers\u2019 behaviour. I will quote again from the select committee report: \u201Cthere was not enough empirical evidence to evaluate the effect of the three-year repayment holiday introduced in 2007, and that limited modelling has been done on the likely effect of curtailing the holiday, as borrowers\u2019 response to the change is uncertain.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EIt just seems like bad lawmaking to me to be making this change in a vacuum of knowledge. It seems to be based solely on ideology and\u2014if I may borrow the phrase that has been used earlier\u2014it is completely the opposite of a pragmatic approach. The Government, we know, is looking for ways to rein in student loans without touching interest-free student loans, and this just seems to me to be its attempt to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EMy Supplementary Order Paper 16 aims to prevent this bad lawmaking by retaining the maximum duration of the repayment holiday at 3 years. I invite members to support it and, as I mentioned before, I challenge the Labour Party that if these amendments do not pass and if Labour really believes that the repayment holiday should be kept at 3 years, then it should not be supporting this bill through the rest of its stages through this House. The reasons given in 2007 from the Minister are no less relevant now, and the fact is that we could be creating policy settings that will make it less likely for people to return to New Zealand and pay off their loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI would like to note that one thing that has changed since 2007 is that even more New Zealanders are moving permanently overseas, and we know that the figures for this in this year are the highest they have ever been. So, in that context, it seems very important that we make careful law that is based on evidence, that does not fly in the face of advice that has been received, and that has actual empirical backing behind it. We just have not had the chance since 2007, when this was introduced, for that to be the case. It is irresponsible to be reducing it down to 1 year. So I invite the House to support my amendments. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229a9800a342ce4d0dadccef49a1e479ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a9800a342ce4d0dadccef49a1e479ec\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to concentrate on two clauses in this very worthy bill, the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill, which I support wholeheartedly. One is new section 88A in clause 14, which is focused on the area of adjusted net income being a means of calculating the borrower\u2019s income in accordance with a formula. The idea there is to maximise repayments from New Zealand - based borrowers. The bill makes amendments to exclude losses such as rental losses from the calculation of net income. I think this is very worthwhile. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EUltimately, what we are trying to achieve here is a higher rate of repayment. There is a very, very large liability here on the part of the taxpayers as part of a very expensive scheme, and the fact is that repayments are slow. We are writing it down to 54c for every dollar that we have lent. So any means that can increase the repayments I think are worthwhile. This new section 88A, which excludes such things as being able to offset losses generated from rental properties, is just one way to draw back to people their responsibilities for repaying these loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe other area that I want to focus on is new section 107A in clause 17, which, again, is this issue of the contact person to be nominated. Here in subsection (3) it talks about specifying the details of the name of an individual, a New Zealand postal address, an electronic address if the individual has one\u2014and we all do these days\u2014and a New Zealand telephone number. Again, this is very basic stuff in response to the reality that we have lost track of many of these people with student loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e679c5162e8842fca2fb5d1da3a40c63\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: As we were having our dinner break it gave me pause for thought to think about why this bill is particularly important. It is not so much a huge amount of money, although it is not irrelevant; we are looking at potential increased repayments of around $14 million. I think that is a very conservative figure, and that will reduce the need for further borrowing on the part of the Government\u2014$14 million is probably an increase of 2 or 3 percent in the repayments, and we are hoping for more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut that is not the key ingredient. The key ingredient is that it sends a clear message that when you do borrow money, you should pay it back. This bill is all about just turning the knob a little in the direction of encouraging people and making it clearer that we need people to think about paying back those student loans sooner rather than later. I commend this bill to the Committee on that score. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u00224779397762c24f819868fc561e34462e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224779397762c24f819868fc561e34462e\u0022\u003ETRACEY MARTIN (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairperson. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to again state that we will be providing our conditional support for the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill to go to the third reading stage. New Zealand First supports the New Zealand - based contact person, although we again reiterate that there is no indication in the papers that we have been able to access as to what will happen should that person choose not to provide subsequent contact details of the borrower. New Zealand First supports the exclusion of investment and business losses from the calculation of net income when accessing loan repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EWe take no issue with the reduction from a 3-year to a 1-year loan repayment holiday. I note that the Minister of Revenue explained to the Committee that one of the reasons why the 3-year term was incorporated originally was due to the lack of experience or reference points that would have factored into the best period of time for such a repayment holiday when this legislation was originally drafted. I would respectfully suggest that those involved should have actually gone and found themselves a debt collector or taken advice from a credit controller. It is a known reality that the longer debt is unpaid, the less likely it is that it will be repaid. It is a known reality of those in those quoted professions that after 3 years, you are exceptionally lucky to be able to track down that debtor. In the credit control world, 6 months is about as far as you ever want to allow a debt to be neglected. But, as I say, New Zealand First will be supporting the 1-year repayment holiday amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI note the number of times my Labour and Green colleagues have used the example of New Zealanders not returning to this nation with their skills due to the shortening of the repayment holiday. Can I be so bold as to suggest that in some cases it might just have the opposite effect: if individuals have not found the job of their dreams overseas within a 12-month period, then it may well be time to bring their skills back to New Zealand\u2014to enter a no-interest environment and contribute to the nation that assisted them to obtain those skills in the first instance. But this bill is not about finding the job of individuals\u2019 dreams; this bill is about debt reduction. Again, from personal experience, the sooner debtors address their debt, the greater the likelihood that that debt will be repaid, and the sooner the stress\u2014and it is stressful to know that one has a debt\u2014is removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI want to take particular note of the words \u201Cfair\u201D and \u201Cfairness\u201D in discussion around this particular clause, clause 17. If this bill is about being fair to New Zealand students with a student loan, then why is it only those who leave our country who have an established recognition that sometimes life, either through accident or design, just does not go as planned, and that people may need to take a break from those repayments? I gave an example yesterday of how that might manifest itself in the lives of women, whether they are overseas or whether they are here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ENo bill works in isolation. This bill should not be just about debt reduction, and, obviously, if the Minister is using words like \u201Cfair\u201D and \u201Cfairness\u201D, it is not. But there is a bigger picture that this amendment could have brought to the issue of debt reduction. Couple that with the issue of skill retention, and then we have a bill that really works for New Zealand, if this bill extended itself to alternative debt reduction ideas, such as New Zealand First\u2019s dollar for dollar student loan reduction policy for those students who recognise that New Zealand assisted them to gain these qualifications by paying that forward through their skills by staying in New Zealand. That commitment should also be acknowledged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI need to close by saying that a $12 billion debt is not an asset; it is dead money, and a contributor to our skills shortage. And although we support this bill going forward to its third reading, we are disappointed with its lack of vision. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00226d59ed819e264e4a86b37f53bba9f870\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d59ed819e264e4a86b37f53bba9f870\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from that particular contribution from Tracy Martin, I want to pick up on the last point first, and that is whether, in the interests of fairness, the holiday period should be applied to domestic student loan borrowers. I would say that if that member does believe that this is an opportunity to convince the Government that applying the same measure to domestic borrowers is something that should be considered, then we would welcome the opportunity to see what her amendment to the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill might look like in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EOn the second issue, in terms of young people going overseas, I think there has been quite an extensive contribution from across the Chamber on the benefits of young people going on working holidays. I would certainly be of the mind-set, in respect of young people who have gone straight from school, perhaps, to get their qualification and have then wanted to have that experience overseas, that we are certainly richer for it, because we are from a small coastal nation. It is a long way away to get over to what is often the most common destination, which is somewhere in Europe\u2014often the UK\u2014and once you are in the UK you can travel throughout the whole of Europe. That experience, in itself, I think adds value to the skill set that a person has got once they have gained their qualifications. I think you appreciate the context with which you can bring those skills back into the New Zealand working environment. I appreciate that experience. I think that if more New Zealand young people\u2014and more New Zealanders\u2014had the opportunity to travel, we would see our own country through very different eyes. In fact, we would appreciate far more not only the opportunities and experiences we have here but also our ability to really contribute to this country in some very positive ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EOn the period of debt reduction from 3 years to 1 year, I made the point in a previous contribution that it would seem to me just a common-sense approach to align the debt reduction period to what is commonly associated with a working holiday period, which is 2 years, and some of our bilateral agreements with other countries are for the 2-year period. So I was pleased to see that Grant Robertson had introduced an amendment for members to consider and support, which either retained the 3-year period or, in the interests of compromise, set a 2-year period. I think it is worth considering that this matter\u2014and the point was well made\u2014was not well reviewed. In fact, advice was given to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that there was no strong rationale for 3 years and that members should be urged again to consider the time period. But I would go so far as to say that this is probably a part of the bill that should be reviewed so that members actually understand what the effects are of a holiday period for loan repayments on recouping student loans. I want to confirm, certainly in terms of Labour\u2019s position, that we too believe that having a good track record and paying back debt is something that people should be inspired to participate in, if this bill is sending the right signals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe next point I want to move to is this issue around identifying a contact person. I would like the Minister to take a call on this and, in the interests of clarification, maybe answer these questions. When a contact person is nominated by the borrower in the first instance, does the contact person have the opportunity to opt out? I ask that because implicit in the bill is that the borrower has asked the contact person whether they can pass on those details, and in the frame of thinking of young borrowers, they could be putting their parents\u2019 details there and they might not have asked their parents. That is probably the most relevant example in this situation. For whatever reason, the contact person may choose not to be identified as the person who is to keep track of the borrower, but it is not entirely clear in the bill whether there is an opt-out provision, in the first instance, for the contact person to turn down the opportunity to be named. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn the second instance, it seems to me that the intention of identifying a contact person is so that the Inland Revenue Department can keep tabs on the borrower for communication purposes. I understand that, and I understand the importance of that, but it seems to me that, for example, with regard to the need for the Inland Revenue Department to capture more data or information on that borrower, the contact person has to weigh up and say: \u201CWell, I am not sure whether I have full consent to give more information or not.\u201D And how would they be treated if they do not give over more requirements of information? I take you to the part of the bill that actually says that under the regulations, the loan manager can require\u2014that is, in new section 16A(1)(e) in clause 7\u2014\u201Cany further information specified in regulations.\u201D So it appears to me that although there is specific information outlined in the bill that must be required, if there is any further information and the contact person is not sure whether they have the right, or whether there are privacy issues entailed, it is not clear whether they should be, in fact, giving this information. I think it is important for the Minister to clarify that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other part that I would like to point to is that if this is intended to give confidence to borrowers that by identifying a contact person this will ease for administrative purposes the repayment of loans or the capturing of data so that loans could be repaid, then the Inland Revenue Department or the loan manager should be required to review the effectiveness of this particular clause and report on it in some shape or form. I raise that as an issue for the Minister to consider, and I ask whether that has been considered or whether he received advice on it. So he could clarify whether, by reviewing the effectiveness and efficiency of this clause, that could continue to give confidence to people who want to repay loans\u2014confidence in the mechanism used to have a contact person identified and therefore make contact with the borrower. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBy and large, there are a number of other aspects to this bill that I think have been well traversed, but, in the first instance, I really think that it is important for the Minister to respond to some of those key points, because we still have not had a satisfactory response to the setting of the period by which loans should be repaid and the reducing of the period of repayment for loans from 3 years to 1 year. That, in itself, is something that would be required, I think, for the benefit of the Committee\u2014to clarify why the Minister of Revenue, who initially supported 3 years, is now proposing 1 year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere is a simple amendment on the Table from Grant Robertson that could be considered by members in the Committee. I think it is a common-sense proposal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2e53d3bc834241ad7e572867cc103c\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Pragmatic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ff258b829e4efb83a8849dda538c2f\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and very pragmatic, and it does align the repayment holiday period with the working holiday period that young people go overseas for. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c46ebb94589341ef86bf76cc0d162196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c46ebb94589341ef86bf76cc0d162196\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair\u2014oh, my goodness, that is loud! And it is not even me, this time. I am very happy to take a call on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill, and I want to begin perhaps just by canvassing a few of the principles behind the student loan scheme. The Labour Party is very proud of the track record we have when it comes to the student loan scheme. The student loan scheme was put in place to ensure that financial barriers do not prevent people from participating in tertiary education. That is one of the reasons why Labour took a number of steps during the term that we were in Government to make student loan scheme repayments faster, which is one of the things this bill purports to want to do. Whether or not it is going to do that is the subject of some comments that I am going to make shortly. But we wanted graduates to get through their debts faster to be able to get on with their lives, and that is one of the reasons why we made student loans interest-free. From memory the average\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65f7af6fe144c6fa13f5ed355a9ef94\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: No, it helps to win an election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b79eb3a9ae4cbbbcbc44d21fbc6f09\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, actually\u2014oh, so it is to win an election? Well, this just highlights the National Party\u2019s stance on interest-free loans, does it not? One moment John Key said he was going to fight interest-free student loans with every bone in his body; the next minute he said that it was shonky economics. Was that what it was\u2014it was shonky economics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c1d396617c49f6ac0d1aec065808c4\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: But it was good politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022695e634ae443466cad54cf65c5918865\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: But it was good politics. So now it is good politics for National members to support it, but in their heart of hearts, they do not believe in interest-free student loans. They do not believe in the policy that has seen the average repayment times for student loans more or less halved. So here they are bringing this bill to the House today, which they claim is going to result in faster repayment times for student loans\u2014faster repayment times for student loans; that is what they say this bill is going to do\u2014yet they are opposed to the very policy\u2014the very policy\u2014that resulted in much, much faster repayments of student loans. That was interest-free student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut coming back to the bill\u2014I am not going to be distracted by that unruly lot over there. As the wheels start spinning off the Government, you can see the desperation in those members\u2019 eyes, but I will not be distracted by that, because on this side of the Chamber we do believe in faster repayment times for student loans. That is one of the reasons why the amendment put forward by Grant Robertson is a very sensible one. The advice that the Government has received is that by reducing the repayment holiday from 3 years to 1 year, it will actually increase the amount of debt. It will increase the amount of debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENow, of course, that is something this Government is quite happy with. It does not really mind about debt\u2014debt on any number of levels. Whether it is student loan debt, current account debt, or Government debt, this Government is happy to see it all increase. It wants to borrow. More borrowing\u2014that is what this Government is all for. It does not matter who is doing the borrowing\u2014whether it is people with student loans, whether it is the Crown, or whether it is households\u2014borrow, borrow, borrow is the message that we get from this Government. Borrow, borrow, borrow. We are not going to borrow our way out of recession, but that is what this Government seems to think. That is what this Government seems to think, because this amendment that the Government is proposing to make in this bill will increase the amount of debt. That is not my view; that is what Treasury is telling the Government. Treasury is telling it that this is going to result in more debt\u2014more debt\u2014and yet it is going to go ahead. Let us be clear about what this is. This is all about the National Government looking like it is doing something. Actually, this bill is not really going to make a huge amount of difference other than the fact that it is going to result in more debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo to move to the amendment put forward by my colleague Grant Robertson\u2014which I fully support\u2014to restore the repayment holiday back to 3 years, I believe that this is a very pragmatic decision. I am looking forward\u2014I am really looking forward\u2014to the contribution from Peter Dunne on this. I suspect it is going to be the defining part of this debate. It will be the contribution from Peter Dunne, because he was very clear in 2007 that he thought that extending the repayment holiday from 1 year to 3 years was very sensible. It was pragmatic. That is what Peter Dunne was saying at the time. He seems to have changed his tune. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will be very interested to see how Peter Dunne votes on Grant Robertson\u2019s amendment. If Peter Dunne votes against the amendment put forward by Grant Robertson, that will simply confirm what everybody suspects\u2014that Peter Dunne\u2019s view of pragmatism is whatever it will take to keep his ministerial warrant. That is Peter Dunne\u2019s view of pragmatism. I am looking forward to him proving us wrong\u2014to Peter Dunne coming into the Chamber and voting in favour of Grant Robertson\u2019s amendment. If he does do that, and if that amendment passes, Labour will vote for the rest of the bill, because we actually do not have a problem with the rest of the bill. But we do have a problem with this provision in the bill that reduces the repayment holiday\u2014the amount of time someone can spend overseas without having to worry about repayments\u2014from 3 years to 1 year, because we do not think it is going to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EJohn Key stood in the Westpac Stadium in Wellington and lamented the fact that 30,000 New Zealanders left every year. Of course, we have got more New Zealanders leaving New Zealand every year now than that. In fact, we are at record levels of people leaving New Zealand, and some of the people leaving New Zealand are recent graduates. They are recent graduates going off to do their OE\u2014it is a bit of a rite of passage for New Zealanders. That is something we encourage; we just want them to come back. It is good to do an OE, because you get a whole lot of experience that you might not get in New Zealand. If you are a medical graduate, for example, working for a few years in an overseas hospital is going to give you exposure to a whole lot of different things and experience that you might not get in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c19aac36b52b4097babd4d43827819a0\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: But why should we pay for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022274503a3c4494f82909adc6ccc0affbe\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We should pay for it, Maggie Barry, because they will be better doctors when they come back to New Zealand. They will be better doctors when they come back to New Zealand. But this Government does not care about getting them back to New Zealand. It is quite happy to say \u201Cstay there\u201D. After training them, after spending all that money to train them, this Government would rather have them stay overseas than come back to New Zealand. We in the Labour Party want them to come back to New Zealand. We do not want to see the trend continue as it has under this National Government, under John Key\u2019s Government, for more and more New Zealanders every year to leave the country and not come back. They are not coming back, because this Government is not giving them any hope that the future is going to be better for them when they do come back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis repayment holiday may seem like only a small thing, but if you have got graduates overseas seeing penalties starting to rack up while they are away, that will act as a major disincentive for them returning to New Zealand, and that is the very last thing we should be doing. For a lot of our graduates, 1 year is simply not enough in terms of the time. They might want to do a bit of work, they might want to have a bit of holiday, they might want to visit a couple of different countries, and 1 year is not probably enough; 3 years is adequate time. After that time I think it is fair for New Zealanders to say: \u201CHey, you\u2019ve had your university education or tertiary education\u201D\u2014whatever variety it is\u2014\u201Cyou\u2019ve had your OE, you have had your overseas experience, we now want you to come back and contribute back to New Zealand, and if you don\u2019t do that, we expect you to start making repayments from wherever you are to get your loan balance back under control, to start paying off your student loan.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThat is very reasonable, very fair. The Labour Party supports that. But requiring people to do that after 1 year is going to lead to more graduates in default, more graduates clocking up debts and clocking up penalties, and that is going to act as a disincentive to them coming home. That is one of the reasons why the amendment put forward by Grant Robertson is a very, very sensible amendment\u2014a pragmatic decision recognising that many young New Zealanders take that extended period overseas. That is what Peter Dunne said when he supported the 3-year repayment holiday, before he went back to supporting the 1-year repayment holiday in the space of 3 or 4 years\u2014but that is OK; that is Peter Dunne. As I said, Peter Dunne\u2019s view of pragmatism is whatever keeps his job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut I am looking forward to his proving us wrong. I am looking forward to the significant contributions from the M\u0101ori Party. I notice that we do not seem to hear so much from the M\u0101ori Party these days. It could have something to do with the fact that those members are not allowed to read their speeches any more. They have been kind of unplugged, so to speak, and so we do not tend to hear quite so much from the M\u0101ori Party. I am looking forward to the contributions of Mr Banks. The ACT Party\u2019s Mr Banks will, I am sure, argue that we should do away with student loans altogether and that it should be the ACT Party\u2019s view of Darwinism: survival of the fittest, and whoever has got the most money should get the tertiary education; everyone else should just join the line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMoving on to some of the further substance of the bill, I must admit I was intrigued by Minister Peter Dunne\u2019s amendment. Actually it is the commencement clause that I was about to talk about, so I will talk about that when we get to that part of the debate. But I am interested in the fact that one of these provisions comes into effect retrospectively. That is pretty unusual and I will be interested to hear the justification as to why we are imposing a retrospective clause in this bill. I will get to that when we come to that part of the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EJust moving back to the points of principle that I was raising at the very beginning, the Labour Party of course supports efforts to make the student loan scheme more efficient. We think that the student loan scheme is a very important way that we can ensure that everybody can participate in tertiary education and make a brighter future for themselves. Graduates should not be shirking their responsibilities to make repayments, but the quid pro quo from that arrangement is that we have to make sure those repayment arrangements are fair. Removing the interest was fair; this is not fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022015f81c43eba4a5da2d0bd670a95c2e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022015f81c43eba4a5da2d0bd670a95c2e7\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed730cb081384f648975658e9143defd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed730cb081384f648975658e9143defd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to deal with the issue as to what it is that is standing between borrowers and repayments. I was on the Finance and Expenditure Committee that heard submissions on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill and we heard from a former official of the Inland Revenue Department who, when she was with the department, had responsibilities that included the recovery of student loans. She informed the committee that although it is appropriate that we have a contact person for a student loan other than the borrower\u2014normally the parents; I do not think anyone in the Chamber disagrees with that being a sensible thing to do\u2014in her opinion she did not think this was going to make much difference to repayments, because the reality is that the vast majority of the outstanding balance of overseas-based student loan borrowers relates to interest and penalties. Once interest and penalties reach a certain point and interest compounds every interest period, the amount that is accruing due to the Crown grows at such a rate that the borrower feels helpless and hopeless. They think that this has become such an insurmountable problem they choose to ignore it, because they do not see any meaningful way that they can get their loan under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo her evidence to the select committee was that this problem of outstanding overseas student loan amounts is not going to be properly dealt with until we come to some way of dealing with some of these very significant arrears that we have on some of these older balances. This was also the experience that we had for New Zealand - based student loan borrowers, where New Zealanders were borrowing and paying interest whilst they were at university and then paying interest during the period of repayment. We had quite a number of borrowers who became so behind that they just gave up and they did not even make an attempt to repay the principal or the interest because they could just not get ahead. That is the problem that we have here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo I would invite the Minister in the chair, Chester Borrows, to take a call and to respond to this issue as to whether that, in fact, is the case. I would suggest it is, because of the evidence that we had from the department on the effect of these measures on student loan repayments\u2014and Dr Clark might be able to help me with supplying a figure here. The amount that this is anticipated reducing overseas student loans is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022535fcebcaaf24cecabc549e04f908071\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Apparently the repayment holiday\u2019s $5 million out of $12 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258179420f45e4cb5adddc2db220fab7a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: So $12 billion owed in total on student loans and the proportion of those who are overseas is substantial. This legislation improves collections by decreasing the holiday period from 3 years to 1 year and it increases collections by an estimated $5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c10b2c3d4fc6489f8a40d0613de073f6\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury and the Ministry of Education think it will actually have the opposite effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc116eb54b4d49aea3d29e7b3ebb1f7b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: So Treasury\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc1cd33dd64439eb20bff8eb68d63ba\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just a guess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236d242d3256a463caa9a5fb50ab7f0bb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is a good point. David Clark was on the committee as well and he interjects by making the fair point that indeed the Ministry of Education thinks that rather than encouraging more repayments, this is going to make it worse, because more student borrowers will be getting into trouble earlier. I am not sure that I am completely convinced by that argument, because I do think that if you have a lengthy holiday period, then you are more likely to get used to not repaying. I think there is some benefit in letting people know what the real event is slightly earlier. But I do not think it is going to collect old debts from debtors who are not paying, because their interest bills and their penalties have become so high, and they compound every interest period, that they just cannot get on top of the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo for the Government to present this as a substantial cure to outstanding indebtedness on loans to borrowers overseas, its own analysis shows that that is not true, and therefore this is but tinkering at the edges. Until the Government is willing to grasp the nettle and actually do something with these long-outstanding balances and the accrued interest and penalties that are the major part of the debt now, it is not going to get on top of the problem. To the extent that the Government includes these receivables in its financial statements at probably a higher value than is truly recoverable, then it is misrepresenting the position to itself. I know that it makes an allowance for uncollectable debt, but I suspect that in respect of these international debts that allowance for uncollectable debts is too low. So I would ask the Minister to respond as to whether the underlying problem is, for a lot of these old debtors, the fact that interest is accruing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022933aed535f8e4b6687248619ba087b41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022933aed535f8e4b6687248619ba087b41\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00224d4e515593d2452e949c0a9e830e391d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d4e515593d2452e949c0a9e830e391d\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for allowing me a call on Part 1 of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. I would just like to touch on a point that Mr Parker made around the sums that are involved in actually taking these measures, and whether or not this is just tinkering at the edges in terms of National\u2019s commitment to student loans. I understand that by taking the measures in this bill\u2014and the member for Dunedin North did point this out in the last call\u2014we are looking at bringing in about $14 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df3b4086d77b4e539fa49c827ae12de2\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: In total.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd75e6fd71640eca3d7952c3953cd68\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in total, more revenue as part of the measures that are being taken in this bill. To put that in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243df2e292a2f45e59fc810326c92cb0e\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: A best guess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224eb741b4e1049618a939f72825e73c3\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: That is a best guess\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c69b52d014a41e29fa9d09d1b166850\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: The IRD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220333c7419a7a4608a6bb51ef24f6fc6d\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014from the Inland Revenue Department. But to put that in perspective, a total of $12 billion is owed by New Zealanders who have taken out a student loan. To put that in a context of those who are now overseas, $2.5 billion is owed in terms of student loans by Kiwis who have now studied, have taken out a loan, and have gone overseas. I understand in the nominal sense that that is 0.12 percent. In terms of what this bill is going to do in terms of taking action against those who have gone overseas and maybe are shirking their responsibilities in terms of paying their student loan back, we do not think on this side of the Chamber that this will make much of a difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EOne of the aspects of that\u2014and there is an amendment on the Table under the name of Grant Robertson pertaining to new section 107B in clause 17\u2014is around the repayment holiday, which will be reduced from 3 years down to 1 year. As someone who has gone overseas for roughly 2 years on an overseas experience, this is something that I would have been caught in if this law had been in place in roughly 2006 and 2007. This would have meant that I would have had only a 1-year repayment holiday, which means that I would have come back to somewhere in the vicinity\u2014and maybe my colleague over here will be able to correct me if I am wrong\u2014of a debt of around $1,000 or $3,000 if I had not repaid my loan while I was away. As I was away for 2 years, the law as it is proposed in the bill at the moment would have meant that I would be a year out, and if I had not repaid, then I would have returned to New Zealand with a considerable debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe do think that the Committee should consider the amendment that is on the Table under the name of Grant Robertson, making sure that this bill keeps the repayment holiday period at 3 years. We think it is a good solution. Given the amount of time that Kiwis usually head away overseas to take their OE, we do also note\u2014and it has been mentioned on a number of occasions\u2014that the Minister of Revenue, Peter Dunne, in 2007 did state that a 3-year working holiday period would be a pragmatic approach to making sure that we can get back the revenue that we can get back, and it would suit better the purposes of those students who had taken out a loan and had gone overseas. We also understand that Treasury itself has said that making this change from a 3-year period to a 1-year period may, in fact, mean that less money comes in, in terms of revenue from those who have gone overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn terms of this bill, we have already stated that we are looking forward to the contribution from Peter Dunne. We ask that he return to his position in 2007 where he quite clearly stated that a 3-year holiday period was much more preferred in terms of that holiday than a 1-year period. We also look forward to maybe seeing members on the opposite side of the Chamber who may think that this is a good move supporting the amendment of Grant Robertson. The student loan bill at $12 billion is a significant amount of money. We want to make sure that the students who have taken out a student loan do get into the habit of paying it back, and if they can pay it back, they do. But with $2.5 billion being owed by students who are overseas, we think that much better measures can be taken in this bill in terms of what is in this now, to make sure that we can get some of that $2.5 billion back. It is a significant amount of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIt is a concern that we had a significant interjection, or a contribution, from Maggie Barry across the Chamber while Chris Hipkins was speaking. We do want to try to draw some of best and brightest back, and maybe taking a load off them in terms of their student loans is a way to do that, but to hear Ms Barry say that we will never get them back is a concern. We want to make sure we get our best and brightest back. As Chris Hipkins said, it was pointed out by John Key ahead of the 2008 election just how many Kiwis are going overseas, and we want to make sure they are coming back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220912e3fbd9f740dd8af710c8a29b63d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220912e3fbd9f740dd8af710c8a29b63d7\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae1a66d9c80a4c0baa2b7db8cb9c6e3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae1a66d9c80a4c0baa2b7db8cb9c6e3b\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The principal point about this legislation is that nobody objects to improving the administrative requirements of the student loan scheme under the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. But the point is that the requirements set out in this bill\u2014which Mr Simon O\u2019Connor, my friend opposite, finds so entertaining\u2014is that it simply will not make a material difference to the Crown\u2019s balance sheet and to the efficacy of this scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFor a scheme that presently has an outstanding balance of $14 billion, of which $2.5 billion is for overseas students, the value of that $2.5 billion is increasing mainly because of those who are subject to compounding interest. A scheme that is going to net the Government an extra $14 million a year can be described only as creating a drop in the ocean. That is all it is going to do. With all of the other challenges before this Government and before us all, there are different ways not only of skinning this cat but also of achieving a much more material effect that will improve the Crown\u2019s balance sheet and the income and expenditure statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe real question is why go to these lengths. Why shorten the repayment holiday when it is simply not going to have a significant effect? The message that it is sending young people who complete their studies is that we will just make it harder. You will not get your 3-year holiday; you will get a 1-year holiday. The signal that it sends, however much that may be psychological or not, is that we are going to take something off you and we are going to make it harder\u2014and all for the benefit of $14 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn fact, it is not even that; it is actually $5 million, because $9 million of the $14 million benefit relates to excluding business losses in the calculation of repayments in the particular year. So in reality this is a $5 million gain against a $14 billion problem. It is laughable. It is risible. The real question is why we are going to these lengths for this purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe other point, too, is the contact person requirement. Having to provide a contact person, on paper\u2014and let us face it, it is on paper\u2014might sound like a sensible idea, but the truth is that the way this clause is drafted, it is actually meaningless. It could be anybody whose name is put down as a New Zealand contact person when a person takes their holiday. It might sensibly be the parent, but it may not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAnd even if it is the parent, what will be the material effect of that provision? There is no suggestion that the parent will be chased for any outstanding payments or the outstanding loan, nor your best buddy, whose name you might provide, or some name that you made up\u2014because that is not unknown. That is not unknown in this country. It is not unknown for New Zealand citizens to make up names on forms. It is not unknown for New Zealand citizens to apply for passports in names that have been made up, and, indeed, for MPs to behave in that sort of way. Fortunately, they are former MPs now, so we do not have to dwell too much on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to efficacy\u2014not only the efficacy of this bill but also the efficacy of this Parliament\u2014and the time we spend on things, creating a $5 million solution to a $14 billion problem hardly measures up. We have to do more and we have to do better. We all know, and there is a wide consensus, that we want to maximise access to tertiary education for the nation\u2019s young people. At a time of great economic change there is one thing we must do, and that is invest in our young people and invest in their skills and skills formation and their training. That is why the scheme plays a crucial and important role in the life of New Zealand and our young people in our tertiary education system. We do want a more effective repayment regime, but a regime that simply improves the collection in any one year by $5 million when there is so much outstanding is hardly worth the many pieces of paper it is written on. So even with that, even with reducing the repayment holiday, even with that marginal improvement, there is very little else in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022723969f9a0f34c24a23a8af3e0661fba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022723969f9a0f34c24a23a8af3e0661fba\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ac81db109b0740a89f154ed4d5541804\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000571\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 16 in the name of Holly Walker to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6e82dbc7a5442a696c74cc1c41ee927\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e25196e2418e4b71b9eea598b5ff24b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e25196e2418e4b71b9eea598b5ff24b4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The first Grant Robertson amendment is essentially the same, so it is now ruled out of order as being inconsistent with the previous decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Grant Robertson to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003Eto replace in clause 4 \u201C365 days\u201D with \u201C2 years\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003Eto replace section 107B(3) in clause 17 with:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(3)\tFor the purposes of this subpart, a borrower reaches the borrower\u2019s limit if\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe borrower has had 1 or more repayment holidays, granted under this Act, for a period of 2 years or for periods that total 2 years; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(b)\tthe borrower has had 1 or more repayment holidays under Part 3 of the Student Loan Scheme Act 1992 for a period of 3 years or for periods that total 3 years; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(c)\tthe borrower has had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(i)\t1 or more repayment holidays under Part 3 of the Student Loan Scheme Act 1992 for a period of less than 3 years or for periods less than 3 years; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(ii)\t1 or more repayment holidays, granted under this Act, for a period that equals, or for periods that in total equal, the lesser of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(A)\t2 years; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(B)\tthe remainder of the period of the repayment holiday to which the borrower would have been entitled under Part 3 of the Student Loan Scheme Act 1992 if that Act had been repealed; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(d)\tthe borrower has had his or her repayment holiday under Part 3 of the Student Loan Scheme Act 1992 continued under section 108A(2) for the maximum period prescribed for that continuation; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003Eto replace in new section 108A(2)(a) in clause 17 \u201C365 days\u201D with \u201C2 years\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022abae8e040143442cb3aded512ab8b6ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdc2b72a345b4191aca7e782784fdaee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdc2b72a345b4191aca7e782784fdaee\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I have a typescript amendment in the name of the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, but it is not signed, so it is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ccc6374a9f1648049b0a5e8b8337f5f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f4230100b9c4d479ddae2586b1b4177\u0022\u003EPart 2  Transitional provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ada5adb5a4ae4b75908e416f5603ada8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ada5adb5a4ae4b75908e416f5603ada8\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The transitional provision in this Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill relates mostly\u2014in fact, entirely now, because one clause has been deleted\u2014to the question of the definition of \u201Ccontact person\u201D, which is a matter that I was discussing in my earlier call. Had I had another call on Part 1, I certainly would have got up and expressed my concern that the National Government had not taken up the compromise position of a 2-year period for the repayment holiday. This was a pragmatic solution proposed by members on this side of the Chamber, and it is very unfortunate that it has not been taken up by the Government. It certainly runs in the face of the good old-fashioned Kiwi OE, and I am very disappointed that the Committee has not seen fit to support New Zealanders in the rite of passage that they have had for many years to take that OE for a couple of years. That is what that amendment would have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe transitional provision specifically relates to the question of the definition of \u201Ccontact person\u201D. The reason there needs to be a transitional provision is that the definition is changing, and those people who already are, I guess, contact people will not necessarily know. So the particular clause in question here contains the definition that will be found in new section 193A(5) of the Student Loan Scheme Act. For people who are reading along at home, that new section is inserted by clause 29 of the bill. Basically, what that is saying is: \u201C(5) In this section \u2026 \u2018contact person\u2019, in relation to a borrower, means\u2014(a) an individual whose name has been notified under section 16A in relation to the borrower; or (b) an individual nominated by the borrower under section 107A or 193B.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe big difference here, as we discussed earlier in the debate on this bill, is that the person who has previously been listed as a contact person for a borrower is now going to be more likely to be contacted than they ever were before. Previously when people have given contact details, it has really been a fairly perfunctory exercise. It is one where, simply, contact details are given and, if someone is in default, they would be contacted. Now, the provision\u2014and why there is an important transitional provision on this\u2014is that that is changing. It is a transition, so it is important that the contact people who have been identified by borrowers will now know that they have an additional responsibility. That is covered in new section 193B, which is referred to via new section 193A(5) in the transitional provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENew section 193B actually lists some of the responsibilities of a contact person. It is worth noting that section 193B(2) states: \u201CIf there is a change in any of the details of a borrower\u2019s contact person, the borrower must promptly notify the Commissioner of the changed details.\u201D That is actually something that now impinges not only on the contact person but also on the borrowers themselves. Will they know, necessarily, when they are overseas that the person they have listed as a contact person has moved? Perhaps that is why this new clause ends up being referred to as part of the transitional provision. It is to give time for people to get used to this new role that is put on both the contact person and the borrower. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo these are actually substantive changes, and I guess at one level it is good, then, that there is a grace period through to the end of the year put in place by the transitional provision. But on the other hand, as I said during my earlier call, I actually think these changes are significant enough that it will come as a surprise to some people. As I was discussing earlier on, parents who have become the contact person by default, virtually, for their children now actually have a set of responsibilities. If they move, they had certainly better let their children know, because that is actually the responsibility that now falls upon the borrower. The transitional provision is one that clearly is necessary in order to put in place the changes, but, I guess, on this side of the Chamber we raise some question about those changes, because just being a contact person has been a very low-level activity; now it is a much higher-level activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe do have to remember that the student loan is a loan contract between the borrower and the Crown. These contact people actually have no responsibility for the loan itself, so they are getting quite an additional role. They are going to be contacted by the Inland Revenue Department. They are going to be contacted by the State. Their name and their details are going to be kept by the State, and will obviously be updated on a regular basis if the borrower is fulfilling section 193B, which has been included in the bill. So it is actually quite a substantive change, and I know that Mr Dunne acknowledged that when he was in the chair earlier on. I do think that if this bill passes in its current form, it is going to be something that will be different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am not going to take much more of a call, other than to note that the transitional provision is not just the normal one about dates and things. It actually relates to a substantive change around what it is to be a contact person for a student loan borrower. It is now a much bigger job; one where you will be contacted more often. I do think that is going to come as quite a surprise, particularly to some of the parents in New Zealand, and I hope they are huddled over their radios tonight to know what the change will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00228b41a730f36d4d069234e2a763f6fdfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b41a730f36d4d069234e2a763f6fdfa\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E That is a good point to continue, because for those people who are currently identified as contact persons there should be some obligation, I would think, to notify them about the change of their status and the new expectations they will inherit as a result of this Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. So the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, should take a call on that particular aspect, because it is only right that people are informed if there are new obligations resulting from this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThat communication should go out for a specific set of people who are currently identified as contact persons, so that when the new bill comes into effect, as of, I guess, 1 January 2013, because that section will be repealed, they should be informed that they have identified with the current set of contact people and that they have new obligations, and they should be asked whether they want to continue to be contact persons in the event that their children, or whomever they are the contact person for, may go overseas. I think that is a really important point, and it is the point that I raised in the previous part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe opt-out provisions should be very clear for existing contact persons who no longer wish to continue to be of that status going forward. There should at least, as a matter of courtesy, be an opportunity to update and inform them about the new provisions of the Act and, by default, the expectations that they will inherit, and, secondly, the opportunity to opt out, should they no longer wish to be a contact person. That is more an obligation in terms of the Inland Revenue Department, I would think, rather than the borrower, because this is something that is a carry-over function of the existing system. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc90891ed4c74befb101a1937c5eeb83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc90891ed4c74befb101a1937c5eeb83\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call, and as I do I want to comment, to start off, that this is perhaps one of the least offensive provisions in the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. So my comments must be taken in that context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAs I start, I just want to remind us of a few facts. I do want to talk about the barriers that this presents, because I think it contributes further, in some small way, to the barriers to tertiary education that I spoke about in debate on Part 1. Reminding ourselves that 58 percent of the borrowers are women, that $17,000 is the average amount held in a student loan, and that the total debt is $12 billion, these provisions in this particular part, Part 2, are all aimed at grabbing back\u2014grasping back, perhaps we could say\u2014some of that debt hole that is running up. The contact person is a means of getting to those who have money owing, and perhaps it is those who have taken a repayment holiday and who have disappeared into the ether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere is a sense that this is all part of the same objective, and it is all aimed at grasping back $5 million of a $12 billion debt. In that context the fact that we are spending an estimated $2,761,000 worth of parliamentary time to pass this bit of legislation is infuriating. It is spurious to suggest that this will encourage students to repay, when the Government\u2019s own officials at Treasury and the Ministry of Education have questioned whether this is really true. In fact, they suggest that this legislation, as it relates to those who are overseas, may in fact encourage them to stay overseas. It presents a barrier in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party is, of course, opposed to barriers to tertiary education, and this relates to our belief in the basic principles of fairness and opportunity. They are principles that National has historically tended to ignore when it comes to dealing with the student loan scheme. We will remember that Labour introduced interest-free loans and National introduced a fee for administration\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de00920b5d54ffd99e52a63afe0da83\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This is quite a narrow debate. It is the transitional provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c29633d311cf4d568e730071d87b805f\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Just returning to the point, which is about collecting this debt and the role of contact people in that\u2014Mr Chairman, I thank you for your guidance\u2014I really wanted to say, and I will draw to a close shortly, that the parents of a person undertaking tertiary education are the best predictors of that person\u2019s outcome, and they will likely be the people who are those contact people. If there is a sense, when students go to undertake tertiary education, that they are going to be reported on by their parents if they fail to meet some of the payments or they fall into difficult circumstances whilst overseas, that will be very disappointing indeed. That is why I think it is important that this is clearly signalled to those whom it will affect, and that we remain conscious of the potential barrier\u2014another potential barrier\u2014to tertiary education that could exist in naming a contact person and making that contact person provision stronger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAs I have said at the beginning, and to conclude, this is perhaps one of the least offensive provisions in the bill, but I think it is worth considering the implications of it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc92b2dba77f46a3934e91bbe5e9aec6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc92b2dba77f46a3934e91bbe5e9aec6\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a short call on Part 2 of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. I will not take up a lot of the Committee\u2019s time, but I would like to reiterate the invitation to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Chester Borrows, to take a call to answer some questions about this part. I thank the Hon Nanaia Mahuta for her contribution on this earlier. I would also like to know how the increased responsibilities for those who will be taking on the role of the contact person will be notified to those who are currently named as contact people in relation to this legislation. I would like to know whether they will have the opportunity to opt out of that, and how they will be provided with that opportunity. I would like to invite the Minister in the chair to take a call to explain that to the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00228b35befc33374a56a823df870226a674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b35befc33374a56a823df870226a674\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak to Part 2, which is a very narrow debate, as you have already mentioned, around transitional provisions around the contact persons for people who have gone overseas and who have student loans. The ears of parents around New Zealand who are watching this debate right now have pricked up, because they want to know what their sons and daughters are going to get them into when they are heading overseas. They are also a little bit worried about what this provision and the provision in Part 1 around the repayment holiday may mean for them, if their sons, daughters, or loved ones are going overseas for more than just the 1 year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EFor the benefit of those parents at home, I would just like to point out again what a contact person constitutes, in terms of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. It means that if someone is going overseas, you have to tell the Inland Revenue Department who this contact person is. You are going to have to, obviously, identify this person, give the Inland Revenue Department their postal address, an email if they have one, a telephone number for this individual, and any other information that may be specified in the regulations. With the transition to this contact person regime within the bill\u2014at the moment we have a quasi-regime, where some people have taken on this duty with their sons, daughters, or loved ones already, and they have an amount of responsibility\u2014now they are going to have a fair deal of responsibility. It is not responsibility for the amount of money that is owed, but if the person who is overseas were to go missing, or not pay their student loan back in time, then this is the person whom the Inland Revenue Department staffers, on behalf of the commissioner, will call to ensure that something is done about the money that is owed. And we do note that there is a transition period, which is dated up to 31 December 2012, I believe. We hope that the Inland Revenue Department, as Nanaia Mahuta has already pointed out, will be able to contact as many people as possible, to tell parents that there is going to be a little bit of added responsibility on them for their loved ones\u2014for their sons and daughters\u2014who have gone overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs David Clark has mentioned already, this is something that we think is relatively pragmatic, to use that word again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ac6c0fcc73491c90a0e87b0d4b5036\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b275eae5ef04c4cb56374fa0d9dcda2\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and relatively common sense, but maybe there will be a degree of concern amongst parents in New Zealand at the moment whose sons and daughters may be reaching graduation, and talking about heading overseas to Europe for their big OE. Their parents\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022666992765c5d4ee7b57d9c2ebafdef5c\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Only there for a year now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275799a4e29bd48a08faded0c2eaee409\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: And it may be shorter now; that is a good point. But there will be a degree of concern amongst parents who have loved ones who are nearing graduation and looking at going overseas, when they know that these students have student loans. Some of them may have hefty student loans. Those parents may know that they may not be coming back. Those parents may also be worried that they will be receiving a phone call, an email, or a piece of mail through their letterbox to say \u201CHey, where\u2019s your son? Where\u2019s your daughter? They haven\u2019t paid their student loan back on time, and you\u2019re going to be in the gun for it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe welcome the transitional provision within the bill. We think it is relatively pragmatic, but again we do feel the pain and the concern of many parents out there in New Zealand who are worried about what this may mean in terms of their loved ones, who now may be going overseas for a little less time than traditionally has been the case for Kiwis on their OE. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022423100a3ef47453abdddd9be9ef8a39c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022423100a3ef47453abdddd9be9ef8a39c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228796e5b117384eb1b7e4a3e69fdaafae\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorely tempted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022b93f03c114f444768544015599100345\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b93f03c114f444768544015599100345\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on Part 2, \u201CTransitional provision\u201D. I have not taken a call in the Committee stage of this bill but I have been sitting here as a parent with a child overseas, feeling somewhat alarmed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc080a2a7ec5472a8c350ee6a1ef5578\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Are you the contact person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e70d8719d554835ba6a234790bd8a08\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Have I been named as the contact person by my son and daughter, who happen to live in San Francisco at the moment? They do have a student loan. Am I the contact person, and how would I know? Under this transitional provision, I am not certain, even though it does appear to give some breathing space in that it is a transitional provision until the close of 31 December. So there is some breathing space, I think, so I might have some time to find out whether I am the contact person and whether my address, my email, my phone number, and other details have been given to that very, very frightening but very efficient department called the Inland Revenue Department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI felt moved to take a call on this transitional provision in Part 2 to ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, some questions about this. As I said, as a parent with children overseas, like so many parents I regret that my children have decided that they have to go and live and work overseas. They have taken other opportunities because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224311133375cd4ec893dbd0b2e9bf5883\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: More and more New Zealanders are doing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb9222ae1ad4394b6f3550bb5d4cb5a\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thirty thousand or so have gone to Australia, but actually my children have gone further afield, as I said, to take up opportunities that they simply cannot get in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI also listened to the debate about repayment holidays. I do not want to go into that now, because I know it is not relevant\u2014and thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your guidance\u2014but, as I said, I do feel very, very moved to take a call, as a concerned parent, about what this transitional provision will mean. For the purposes of those people who are listening on their crystal sets tonight\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223729d3e74e28409fbeb63f64bc1145fe\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Thousands of them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289dad1d593044506bfc3219df1ba45af\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thousands of them listening on their crystal sets\u2014let us see what it says. It says in clause 34(1): \u201CUntil the close of 31 December 2012, the definition of contact person in section 193A(5) of the principal Act must be read without reference to paragraph (a) of that definition.\u201D I am trying to find my way through the bill and through the principal Act to see what that means, but what it says to me is that there is at least some breathing space for me as a parent, and for my children who have escaped overseas, to reconsider whether\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3bc3120ce9b4d0e80f0e14c55a978b6\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: You want them back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220344dab9961e4d399d0bf07ba305f60e\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of course I want them back\u2014but to reconsider whether I am a suitable person to be a contact person under this bill, and whether they may want to think about whether they want to expose their parents to the vagaries of this bill, particularly with all of its consequences with the shortening of the repayment holiday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I have said, I have listened to the debate with great interest. I will follow the debate further. I am deeply disappointed that we have not been able to persuade the Government to make amendments that may well have led the Labour Party to support this bill, but unfortunately, because of the Government\u2019s attitude, the lack of common sense that we have had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405b730d87234da69bc90bbfe74fb9b7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Transitional provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d72bbdee37425eb81456a670e0639c\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the lack of common sense, perhaps, in the transitional provision\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9519c8d1a7449d817371bd35920d10\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no lack of common sense in the transitional provision, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229daf2e95ab8342b5a115070c2a357d4e\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: True. Well, we could have had a longer transitional provision, of course. It could have been until 31 December 2013. That might have been of even more comfort to me as a parent. But I do appreciate the opportunity to take a call on the transitional provision in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f498d11679ea4eef803915aa34672e13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f498d11679ea4eef803915aa34672e13\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f4118db8d346456fb21a0eb24af11635\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276f2ffe50f934254a8048776e8416b12\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022210224e8b89341c8932ec4641f999393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022210224e8b89341c8932ec4641f999393\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Clauses 1 and 2 are the title and commencement date, which normally would be a short debate, but there are some issues when we come to the commencement clause that I think are worthy of focusing on. But in this call I want to focus on the title of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe title of the bill is innocuous\u2014the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. In fact, the bill could be better termed the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Ending the OE) Bill\u201D, because that is, in effect, what this will do for some New Zealanders. What this bill is saying to New Zealanders who want to go away on a normal length OE to the UK of 2 years is that it is not the pragmatic solution that Peter Dunne put forward in 2007, and that he articulately very well in Parliament in 2007. That pragmatic solution was struck to ensure that somebody had a provision to undertake their OE. It was not that they were getting off scot-free\u2014they are still paying interest when they are overseas\u2014but they got some recognition of the fact that we support New Zealanders to do this and encourage them to return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have heard already in this debate that, in fact, the evidence that Treasury and the Ministry of Education have provided to the Government is that there is a likelihood that this may discourage people from returning from overseas and therefore increase the annual student loans impairment. So we could easily call the bill the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Ending the OE) Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ECertainly, a title that it could not be called is the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Pragmatic) Amendment Bill\u201D, because it loses the pragmatism that formerly was in the legislation. During the earlier debate, Peter Dunne mounted an argument for why the loan repayment holiday should be taken down from 3 years to 1 year. The problem with that argument was that if you followed it all the way to its logical conclusion there should not be a loan repayment holiday. Mr Dunne\u2019s argument was that all borrowers needed to be treated the same, essentially, whether they were in New Zealand or whether they were overseas. Well, if that is the logic, get rid of the loan repayment holiday altogether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe193727bf1341ada24bd32b116a9cd9\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: And the interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183d50410adb406dbbd1f50dd4b89d46\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014and the interest as well, because borrowers in New Zealand are not paying the interest. So Mr Dunne\u2019s logic has fallen from him here, because he has taken it from 3 years to 1 year, but it does not make any sense in terms of the argument he made. The title of the bill certainly would not be able to be the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Pragmatic) Amendment Bill\u201D, and it would not be able to be the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Logical) Amendment Bill\u201D, because it fails both of those tests. The loan repayment holiday was put in place as a pragmatic solution to the fact that we do not want New Zealanders who go overseas for a short period to have things put in front of them that will make it less likely that they will return to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EDuring the dinner break I had a tweet\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fe188d3dc704c65aeeef6dae6cee3b8\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Sausage roll. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277abcd60eee1411a86bc8bba389460ed\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I did not have a sausage roll, actually. I had a very healthy dinner, Mr Bridges: salad, ham, and a roll, just so you know. Mr Bridges, on the other hand, was once again wallowing in his Chinese takeaway from down the road, which we see him have most dinner times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut what this person told me in the dinner break was that they had worked overseas as a volunteer for a number of years on the basis of the loan repayment holiday. They were actually able to spend 3 years working overseas, paying interest\u2014not actually abdicating their responsibilities; knowing that interest would be accruing on the loan\u2014doing volunteer work, and have the loan repayment holiday for 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe repayment holiday would be down to 1 year now, under this scheme. That would be good and that would be useful, but it does not support New Zealanders in what has been their traditional activity of going on an OE, knowing that at the end of those 2 years, or possibly 3 years if they got an extension on their visa, they would be able to come back to New Zealand, and they would not have had to make those loan repayments in that time. This is pragmatism, and I do think that if the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill was to be titled any other way, it would be around a reference to what now happens for New Zealand graduates who go away on their OE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber we want to make absolutely clear that we want people to pay their loans back. Whatever concerns we might have about student loans and the size of student debt, we want everyone who is in this scheme to feel that people are making their repayments, and that people are doing what they need to do. But when there is an opportunity for people to go overseas and do what New Zealanders have done for decades and for generations, it seems very unfortunate that the Government is not prepared to take up the pragmatic solution it was offered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022de04ec524e4c4264be8033b9b2fedd8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de04ec524e4c4264be8033b9b2fedd8c\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, for giving me the opportunity to speak to the title and commencement of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. A number of suggestions were put forward by Grant Robertson as to a better title for this bill, but I would like to suggest that we call it the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Second Wave Attack by National) Amendment Bill\u201D. We saw the first wave attack come in its first term of Government, when it restricted the access of older New Zealanders to a student loan. So what we have got in front of us today is the second wave attack from National. Really, it is not much of an attack, because this bill does not achieve what it sets out to achieve. We have already heard that this bill will bring in only another $14 million of revenue by bringing in these provisions around the repayment holiday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second wave attack, it builds up a narrative about National and its commitment to student loans. It does not believe in them, at all. We have already heard from John Key that he thinks it is economic madness to keep interest-free student loans\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265bac0e2b2da4860afcbaa57314adaf6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Title and commencement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b86f3e16354e4874a7cbc8510817a39f\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: OK. We have already heard my suggestion that the bill should be called the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Second Wave Attack by a National Government) Amendment Bill\u201D. Why do we think it should be called that? Because of the lack of commitment by National to the student loan scheme. We have already heard from the Prime Minister a rather large missile thrown, in terms of the second wave attack that I am talking about, around his commitment to the student loan scheme. He says it is economic madness to continue the interest-free part of the student loan scheme. In fact, he says that if it was not for the politics of it, he would not keep it. In terms of calling this bill the second wave attack bill, we really do think that National is struggling to continue its commitment to what Labour brought in in 2005 to ensure that there were no barriers to New Zealanders entering tertiary education. We believe that if National actually brought in the bill it wanted to, it would be the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Interest-free Loan Aspect Repeal) Bill\u201D, because we do not believe that the National Party is committed to interest-free student loans, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second wave attack that I have talked about around the title of the bill, we have already heard about the lack of extra revenue that it brings in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee14af5f433546f589206ab3bbf3eed3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is not going to talk about the title and commencement, I will terminate his speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbf3010c3b2f4bf8a544681b5958fbf1\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair, for that clarification. In terms of the title, I think this bill should be called the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Second Wave Attack by National) Amendment Bill\u201D. We have already seen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213226ae378204b78b83b7185142d7ceb\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I want to help you get to 5 minutes. Give us some other titles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034c48c278254c88903e33a8c666c6d7\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, a slight interruption. Well, maybe we should call it the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Simon Bridges is Getting His Student Loan Interest-free) Bill\u201D. Maybe we should call it that. But the one that I wanted to bring to the Committee today was the \u201CStudent Loan (National\u2019s Second Wave Attack on Student Loans) Amendment Bill. [Interruption] It is a good name\u2014thank you very much, Ruth Dyson, and welcome to the Chamber. We do not believe there is a commitment from National to making sure that the student loan scheme stays interest-free. We do not believe that. We believe that it has launched the second wave attack, because of what it did in the first wave by reducing the access\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742d87a9569a4d289099eb3a29376f4a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Right, the speech is terminated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d95d06609c4942d38f733bcfc6f440f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d95d06609c4942d38f733bcfc6f440f2\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a short call on the title and commencement of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. I would like to do two things, and the first is to make a suggestion for an alternative title of the bill, which is the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Reining Student Loans In) Amendment Bill\u201D. That, of course, is what John Key said recently to an audience of property developers in Auckland he wanted to do with the student loan scheme. Of course, as we all know, John Key would really like to get rid of interest-free student loans, but as he outlined to that audience, he does not see that as politically feasible, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da550ed1eda648258a0a38bd2484fb9e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The same rules apply: title and commencement. That is the subject of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a49090598674fc1ac25a9dd0e0f31f0\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. That is why I am suggesting that the title of this bill should be the \u201CStudent Loan Scheme (Reining Student Loans In) Amendment Bill\u201D, because it is the only way that National can find to rein in student loans, in the absence of doing what it really wants to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI want to move to a more substantive point, which is about the commencement. I note that there is a Supplementary Order Paper on the Table from the Minister of Revenue relating to clause 2(4). That clause states: \u201CThe rest of the Act comes into force on 1 April 2012.\u201D The Supplementary Order Paper replaces that word \u201Ccomes\u201D into force with \u201Cis deemed to have come\u201D into force. I want to raise a serious concern about this, because what this essentially does is make the bill retrospective, and I would submit to the Committee that this is bad practice and bad lawmaking. We should not be in the practice of making retrospective law in this Chamber. If the bill cannot be passed in time to meet the commencement date set out in the commencement clause, then that date should be extended. We should not be retrospectively applying this bill. So I want to raise a serious concern about that and invite the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, to take a call to explain to us why it is so important that we need to enact retrospective legislation in this Committee in order for this bill to come into force. I suggest that a far more transparent and democratic approach would be to extend the time of commencement, and I will invite the Minister to take a call to explain that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225650df829b3d4005b409df9c4de1deb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225650df829b3d4005b409df9c4de1deb2\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E To respond to Holly Walker\u2019s comment, I do not think the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, is going to respond. He is tied up with a glossy magazine over there; I am not entirely sure what is in it. I also want to talk about the commencement clause, which means new clause 30D is coming into effect retrospectively. It will come into force on 1 January. What is new clause 30D? We have to turn to new clause 30D to find that it amends schedule 5 of the principal Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d680c8ea963545e6aedae3de9da1167c\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CShedule\u201D, not \u201Cskedule\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae15b2a8f1a417abe06fd5f0632efcd\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CShedule\u201D, \u201Cskedule\u201D, \u201Cschmedule\u201D\u2014whatever. It amends it by repealing clause 2 of that schedule. What is clause 2 of that schedule that this is going to be imposing retrospectively? It says that no interest is to be charged by the loan manager, and then the commencement clause is repealing it retrospectively. National is the party that promised us it was not going to reintroduce interest in any form on student loans, yet it is repealing retrospectively, in the commencement clause of this bill, a clause in the schedule of the principal Act that says no interest shall be charged by the loan manager. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe should rename this bill. It should be the \u201CAnother Broken Promise by the National Party Bill\u201D. Not only is National going to break the promise but it is going to do it retrospectively. Under the commencement clause of this bill, it imposes that retrospectively. The clause in schedule 5 of the principal Act that says that no interest shall be charged by the loan manager is gone\u2014gone under this Government\u2014and it is doing it retrospectively. It is imposing it from 1 January this year. That would make it a new record for a broken promise by the National Government. Less than 2 months, effectively, after an election, it is doing away with an election promise. Even though it is now 4 or 5 months after the election, National is going to break its promise retrospectively, by repealing this clause in schedule 5 that says that no interest shall be charged by the loan manager. National is repealing it retrospectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis has now actually become one of the major clauses. This commencement clause, which imposes this change retrospectively, is now one of the major clauses in this bill, because it is a broken promise by the National Government. It is trying to sneak it through retrospectively in this commencement clause, under clause 2(1A), which says \u201CSection 30D is deemed to have come into force on 1 January 2012.\u201D The clause that says no interest is to be charged by the loan manager is being repealed retrospectively. It is being repealed retrospectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFor a starter, that is just bad law. It is simply bad law for the Government to be forcing through the Parliament any provisions that apply retrospectively. But this is a provision that breaks a fundamental promise of National\u2019s of not having interest on student loans, albeit in what is potentially quite a minor way. I have not had a chance to review the entirety of the Act, in terms of how that fits into it, but it is pretty clear. I will read out the clause: \u201CThe loan manager must not charge interest in relation to any loan advance made by the loan manager in accordance with this schedule.\u201D That is pretty fundamental. It says that the loan manager cannot charge interest, and the Government is repealing it retrospectively. It is doing away with that element of the interest-free student loan scheme retrospectively. Going back to the beginning of the year, that commencement clause will take effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThat is a broken promise by this National Government. It is no wonder its members did not want to debate this part of the bill. It is no wonder nobody in the National Government is willing to leap up and take a call. It is no wonder the Minister is not willing to take a call, and say why it is that this needs to apply retrospectively. Regardless of whether it breaks the promise\u2014and I think it is outrageous that National is breaking that promise\u2014any clause in a bill that applies retrospectively needs to be explained and needs to be justified. That is what the Committee stage of the House is all about. It is where we go through bills brought before the House clause by clause, and we are now on to the commencement clause. The Minister in the chair needs to stand up and explain why this clause needs to apply retrospectively\u2014this clause that effectively removes the restriction on the loan manager from charging interest on any loan advance made by the loan manager in accordance with that schedule\u2014that \u201Cshedule\u201D\u2014of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b28d66b88a4a0f80e5ba27e9659fd2\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de7fee09df4456c8b69cc575d07189d\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That schedule of the Act. I will help old \u201CCue Ball\u201D over there. He is getting a bit uptight about the pronunciation of the word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e902fa150f094631b0e6a7984055e2bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e902fa150f094631b0e6a7984055e2bb\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague Mr Hipkins has raised what is a serious issue, because the commencement clause of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill does bring in a retrospective date for commencement. I think that in principle that is something we should be very careful about in this House\u2014to have legislation having a provision that is retrospectively coming into force. I think it really does require a Minister to stand up and take a call and explain to this Committee, firstly, why it would be that we even have a retrospective commencement date, and, secondly, why on an issue such as this that is deemed to be something that is OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFor clarification for members, what subclause (1) of clause 2 in schedule 5, which is being removed, says\u2014and as my colleague has said, the clause is entitled \u201CNo interest charged by loan manager\u201D\u2014is that \u201CThe loan manager must not charge interest in relation to any loan advance made by the loan manager in accordance with this schedule.\u201D We will come back to some of the earlier elements of the schedule in a moment. But to clarify for members of the Committee what a loan advance is, a loan advance means, according to the interpretation section of the Student Loan Scheme Act: \u201Call\u2014(a) money that is advanced by the loan manager to a borrower under the student loan scheme; and (b) student loan establishment fees charged by the loan manager to the borrower under section 14;\u201D\u2014which is what National introduced last year\u2014\u201Cand (c) student loan establishment fees and any other type of fee charged by the loan manager to the borrower in accordance with a loan contract.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is basically everything. A loan advance is pretty much everything that is provided to borrowers under the scheme. So this clause retrospectively coming into force repeals retrospectively the provision that the loan manager must not charge interest in relation to any loan advance. That is what is now being removed. So this is an interesting change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Student Loan Scheme Act is a complicated Act. There may well be an innocent explanation for this, but we do not know. That is the problem with this being done through the commencement clause, rather than through a process that is more open to the Committee, because, as we know, the subject of interest and whether interest is charged or not is obviously at the heart of the debate over the student loan scheme. We have heard already tonight that the Prime Minister and the current Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment have concerns about whether or not they think the student loan scheme is economically sound. They think it is politically sound, but they do not believe it is economically sound. So that is why we become worried when we see clauses such as this included in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EEssentially it is removing one clause within schedule 5 of the principal Act, and that is the clause that says no interest shall be charged. What this is referring to is actually people who took out loans in a certain period. It refers to people who took out loans between 31 December 2011 and 1 April 2012, so we are in that period now. It is affecting people right now, today, who under this provision in schedule 5 of the Act, passed last year in this House, were to be charged no interest, because that is the situation for every borrower in the student loan scheme at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo really we do need someone on the other side of the Chamber to take a call to explain what this means, to explain why, for borrowers in the current period we are in now, who had a piece of legislation that told them that no interest would be charged by the loan manager on their loan advances, that has now been taken away. If there is an innocent explanation I am quite sure members opposite are capable of getting up and telling this Committee why that is the case, and then we can get on with the rest of the debate around the title and commencement clauses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut it is very different to see a commencement clause with a retrospective date in it. We have now been able to identify what that is, and it is a serious matter. There is not much more serious with the student loan scheme than the issue of whether interest should be charged or not. The whole schedule is one that obviously relates to a specific period in time with the loan scheme, but it does raise concerns on this side of the Chamber. If there is an explanation for it we would like to hear it, but in the absence of an explanation we simply are left with the impression that for some borrowers the requirement not to be charged interest has been removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot tonight from Government members of the House wanting to see borrowers treated the same, wanting to make sure that people who have borrowed money are treated the same. Well, at the moment, if you are resident in New Zealand there is no interest being charged. Does this clause somehow only apply to people who are overseas? There is nothing in the schedule that I can read here in front of me that indicates that. I think it really highlights the dangers of passing something like this under a commencement clause, rather than doing it in a more open way. This is a serious matter, and I would expect someone from the Government to reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00222d5cba81dad3432195911aedc7512ffd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d5cba81dad3432195911aedc7512ffd\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E When my colleague Chris Hipkins announced that the commencement clause would repeal the interest-free aspects of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill, I noticed that the other members on the other side of the Chamber seemed surprised. It seemed like this was a revelation to them. I notice also that the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Immigration, did not appear to be all that confident about what my colleague has revealed. I am going to echo the call that both Mr Hipkins and Mr Robertson have asked for, and that is to ask the Minister in the chair or even the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee whether they would stand and explain why it is that such an important aspect of this bill\u2014an aspect that will have ramifications and dire consequences for thousands of students the length and breadth of New Zealand\u2014is hidden inside this commencement part of the bill. I would have thought that such an important aspect, which is going to affect the future generations of this country, would have been revealed for the entire Committee to see, that it would have been pointed out directly for all to see, and that a significant part of the report be paid to it\u2014but as it is, it is not. So we have had to find out through our research that that particular part of the commencement does repeal the interest-free aspects of the bill, which, again, changes the debate around the title of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWhat we are now seeing is that this does not reveal the complete truth about what students should be aware of when it comes to student loans. In fact, the title of this whole bill is wrong. We should not even be calling it the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill, because that itself does not reveal this key aspect. It certainly does not reveal that this Government is repealing the interest-free loans for students, and it certainly does not reveal the fact that we are doing away with the 3-year repayment holiday period and diminishing that to 1 year. If you consider the whole environment currently, where there is massive unemployment and people are struggling to find jobs, and this bill is suggesting that we cut the holiday from 3 years to 1 year, how on earth are we expecting these young people, new graduates from university, to be able to repay? I have to ask again, will the Minister sitting next to you, Mr Chairman, please take a call and explain for the benefit of the Committee as to why the repeal of interest-free loans has not been highlighted for the Committee to note. It is hidden in this commencement part here, and it does change the whole aspect of this entire debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EYesterday I would have supported this bill. Today, because of the Trojan Horse nature of this Government and the way that this Government is not revealing for all students to know the entire truth about this, I am not going to be supporting it. I know my colleagues stand united in saying that this is the wrong thing to do for students, and it is the wrong thing to do for New Zealand. I say to you again, I ask that Minister to please take a call and respond. There are hundreds\u2014thousands, even\u2014of students listening to this debate, and they would want for this Government to be open and transparent by revealing why it has hidden this particular aspect, which is a very important aspect of the bill, and why it has not even made mention of it in any part of the reports that I have seen. The Government has a lot of explaining to do. I think you owe it to this Committee to demand, in fact, Minister, or even of the chair of the select committee, to explain\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc6206809514749ba3476d2984c2df7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member cannot bring the Chair into the debate in the manner in which he is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885013dd33bd45088a75d4f8c094856d\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I simply was asking by way of the speech that I think we need to compel that Minister and even the chair of the select committee to explain. I do not know whether it is deliberate or not, but I suspect that people listening to the debate will make their own judgment and will suspect that there has been a deliberate attempt by this Government to not reveal that it is repealing the interest-free aspect of this bill. It is the wrong title. In fact, the Government should just call it the \u201CRepeal of Interest-free Loans Bill\u201D, or it could call this bill the \u201CBroken Promises Bill\u201D, because, as I understand it, this Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00227d16a71476f94ab993cb9f6883029c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d16a71476f94ab993cb9f6883029c28\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222f7e5adc70e647588a4ff08144fe9912\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c800e02177d40b49482e2793e36c013\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000684\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 15 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002223f6481be36449739d376282535adc17\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002281b8a645daaf4ff5a8d8ef65ae1b71b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000685\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000686\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aecbdf1085ac48679546809f8409b674\u0022\u003ETrade (Safeguard Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5df40b020dd472f8cfbdcdf4753448a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000689\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228ec18b6189294f4289a05e5ed6ba6afb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ec18b6189294f4289a05e5ed6ba6afb\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the second reading of the Trade (Safeguard Measures) Bill, I want to say that this bill repeals the Temporary Safeguard Authorities Act 1987 and implements a new safeguard regime for New Zealand that is consistent with World Trade Organization rules. I think that is particularly important to New Zealand\u2019s economy, because, as this Government knows only too well, enhancing and growing New Zealand\u2019s international trade links and also opportunities is a pretty much key part of our plan to build a competitive and also productive economy. This bill is part of that. It promotes efficient, transparent, and objective investigative decision-making processes. Now to explain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESafeguard measures are emergency measures applied at the border, usually in the form of a duty, which is a cost to the importer, to temporarily protect the domestic industry from a surge in imported goods. If you think about what kind of product that might mean, you are talking about a container-load of cheap T-shirts, maybe cheap socks, or some product of that nature. The bill prevents New Zealand from receiving a rapid influx of cheap imports. What it does is allow New Zealand businesses time to bring themselves up to the level of international competitiveness required to stay competitive and afloat in this current economic climate. Again I need to say that it is a temporary measure. New Zealand consumers will continue to have the benefit of free-trade principles, which are so important to New Zealand and underpin New Zealand\u2019s trading environment. The bill creates\u2014and this is also significant\u2014a single point of contact for all trade remedy inquiries, which, of course, is a plus for busy businesses, and provides an effective safeguard regime that can help build support for future trade liberalisation among domestic manufacturers who compete with importer trade. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00220afb7bb4374a4d9a9a9038a09b9783e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220afb7bb4374a4d9a9a9038a09b9783e0\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise on behalf of the Labour Party and speak in support of the Trade (Safeguard Measures) Bill. As with many trade bills, this is a bill that has received bipartisan support from across the House. In fact, it was originally introduced by the Hon Lianne Dalziel during the last Labour Government. I think that does require a comment to note that it seems to have taken an awfully long time for this Government to progress the bill, because it was introduced by the previous Government and, 4 years later, here we are at just the second reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is to replace New Zealand\u2019s current safeguards regime with a new regime that is consistent with World Trade Organization rules. The new regime will be a more efficient, transparent, and objective investigative and decision-making process. Safeguards are emergency measures applied at New Zealand\u2019s border, usually in the form of a duty, and facilitate adjustment by a domestic industry to competition from increased imports. That is, I suppose, a flowery way of saying it is a response to the practice of dumping large quantities of often low-quality and low-cost goods on a particular market. This is the regime by which New Zealand will be able to defend its borders against such exercises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe existing Act, the Temporary Safeguard Authorities Act 1987, was subject to review under the Labour-led Government, which included wide public consultation, and the bill is the result of that work. I note that a lot of the work, a lot of the consultation, and a lot of the activities that take time in preparing a bill were carried out by the previous Government, and, again, the question remains, when this is such an important piece of legislation to support the work of small businesses and large businesses across New Zealand, to support our own local economy and to safeguard our own local economy, why on earth it has taken this Government such an astonishingly long time to progress the bill to the point where it is at\u2014that is, its second reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe bill not only ensures compliance with World Trade Organization rules, it streamlines the process of responding to allegations of dumped or subsidised goods on the New Zealand market\u2014something that will certainly be welcomed by New Zealand manufacturers and New Zealand producers. It removes the requirement to establish temporary safeguard authorities and it enables the existing expertise of the Ministry of Economic Development to be utilised instead. It is a cost-effective measure too, and we are all supportive of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E The bill is timely, as it is important that at the time when domestic spending is constrained in New Zealand we have the right tools to protect our businesses from the impacts of globalisation and increased competition, where appropriate. This is, of course, one part of ensuring that the New Zealand economy is able to compete fairly in the world market, and it is great that we are able to put these measures in place to protect and support New Zealand manufacturers and to protect and support New Zealand producers. But what those manufacturers and producers will really be looking for is a real plan, a real economic plan, from this Government\u2014not 120 points of nothingness, not a 14-point this and a 6-point that, and goodness knows what other plans and bullet points will be introduced by this Government as it seeks any opportunity it has to try to convince New Zealand that there is a plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe do not need bullet points; we do not need statements. What New Zealand actually needs to make our economy stronger, to ensure that we can compete internationally, to ensure that our exports are of value, and recognised and valued by markets overseas, is an economic plan from this Government. And I think it really is reflective of how sluggish and how lamentably poor this Government has been at driving our economy out of the recession that it has been in, that this fundamental piece of trade legislation has languished for such a long time\u20144 long years, if not more, since it was first introduced. It was introduced by a Labour Government, it was progressed by a Labour Government, but it all came to a grinding halt once National got into power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESome significant changes are certainly proposed by the bill. I have mentioned the safeguard interventions, which will be undertaken by the ministry rather than by independent temporary safeguard authorities. The extension of the current 30-working-day time frame for the completion of a safeguard investigation will now be extended to 75 working days, or, in fact, even 85 days, if provisional safeguard duties are requested. The bill provides that after receiving the chief executive\u2019s report about the safeguard investigation, the Minister may take one or more of the actions in relation to imported goods, if the Minister is satisfied that a range of criteria have been met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EGiven that this is the second reading, it is worth reflecting on some of the amendments offered up by the select committee. The first of those is around the \u201CProvisional safeguard duty\u2014termination or reduction\u201D. The commentary on the bill states: \u201CAs introduced, clause 15 of the bill would provide the Minister with a wide-reaching discretionary power to terminate or reduce a provisional safeguard duty.\u201D The select committee considered that this power was \u201Ctoo wide, and should be subject to a \u2018parameter of compliance\u2019.\u201D, and recommended \u201Can amendment to clause 15(1) to limit the Minister\u2019s discretion to terminate a provisional safeguard measure by requiring that the Minister be no longer satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for believing that the conditions that justified imposing a provisional safeguard duty are met.\u201D The select committee also recommended \u201Can amendment to clause 15(1) to limit the Minister\u2019s discretion to reduce a provisional safeguard duty by requiring that the Minister be satisfied there are good reasons for doing so.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe select committee also made amendments on the types of safeguard measures that are available, and recommended \u201Cthe deletion of clause 17(d), which provides that a safeguard measure can consist of \u2018any other action the Minister considers appropriate\u2019.\u201D The select committee considered that the \u201Ctypes of safeguard measures in clause 17(a) to (c) are comprehensive; and likely actions other than those provided for in the bill, such as the monitoring of particular imports by the Ministry of Economic Development, would not require legislative authority.\u201D The select committee also recommended \u201Can amendment to clause 17(b) to delete the words \u2018or an exemption from any duty\u2019, because there is no case in which a safeguard measure could be an exemption from a duty under the Tariff Act 1988.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E It is a reasonably technical bill, as often these trade bills are. But, as is so often said in this House, with trade being so fundamentally important to our economy as a small nation reliant on primary produce and manufacturing, we are getting these technical bills around trade and ensuring that where possible we are consistent with the World Trade Organization. They are fundamentally important to the growth and development of our economy and our ability to compete internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe National Government talks a good game on this stuff, but the fact remains that a bill like this has been allowed to languish for so long, and we are in the second term of this Government. It was not a bill that was introduced by this Government; it was introduced by the previous Government. This Government has had plenty of time to progress a technical bill like this, which is just so fundamentally important to ensuring that the New Zealand economy is robust. In fact, it would have been extremely useful. In times of low spending and in times of recession in New Zealand, it would have been very useful for this bill to have been implemented 2 or 3 years ago. I think producers and business people in New Zealand would have appreciated that, but no, because this Government can talk a good game on business but when it actually comes to getting on with the job of being in Government, it fails again. New Zealand businesses are starting to wake up to this. They are starting to realise that this is the second, and final, term of this National Government, because, quite simply, it does not have a plan for our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u0022debe7b46d8284b48be4037bdebfba6cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022debe7b46d8284b48be4037bdebfba6cd\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens are very clear that they like the point of this bill, the Trade (Safeguard Measures) Bill, in terms of it being an anti-dumping bill, effectively, and in terms of it reducing the risk in terms of a World Trade Organization (WTO) trade dispute. However, the Greens are about fair trade, not free trade as we see free trade happening at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThere is a very disturbing aspect in this bill. In fact, the purpose of it is only temporary. Clause 3 provides that the purpose is to: \u201C(a) provide temporary protection to a domestic industry from serious injury caused by increased imports; and (b) facilitates adjustment by a domestic industry to increased competition from increased imports.\u201D There is nothing permanent about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThis is effectively saying: \u201CHey fellas, organise a redundancy for your staff, give them their notices, plan for your early retirement, think about what your local community is going to do from now on because, sorry, this bill looks out for only a temporary adjustment.\u201D, while these people actually downgrade their businesses and move out of their businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe have seen so many things happen in New Zealand. We have watched clothing move off to Fiji, and now we know it has moved further afield and even Fiji does not have that as a business, any more. We have watched footwear manufacturers head off overseas. We now are getting more and more primary-production imports, huge amounts of stuff. I would suggest that 40 percent of the pork that is eaten in New Zealand\u2014hundreds and thousands of tonnes a week\u2014is effectively dumping, and what are we doing about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThis bill is fine if it saves us from a big, expensive court case, but beyond that it continues to send us in the wrong direction. What is \u201Cserious injury\u201D? It is really, effectively, looking out for the absolute worst while anybody who is considered small fry\u2014small to medium sized business\u2014will be going down the gurgler all that much quicker. I would suggest it is just the very big businesses that will get any benefit from this. There is no suggestion of any protection for anything less than what is considered serious injury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe have lost expertise; we have lost self-reliance in this country. As we head into increased impacts from oil shocks, natural disasters, and social and civil disasters internationally we actually need to have a higher level of self-reliance. We have no self-reliance from something like this. This is absolutely temporary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EA problem with the World Trade Organization, which we are connected with and which we look at to try and smooth trade internationally, is that it is very, very strong on trade and very, very weak on environmental and social concerns. We have material coming in here. Sure, we might get a bit of a tariff put on it. However, what adjustment to make an even playing field is there for New Zealand producers and manufacturers? There is very, very little. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe have material pouring into this country as it is. New Zealand manufacturers are expected to compete against low-wage economies\u2014economies that do not have efficient and protective devices such as the Resource Management Act, and other devices such as national environmental standards, that might give some protections. Yet our manufacturers, our producers, have to compete, price on price, without those things being adequately considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESo although the Greens are concerned and do not want New Zealand to be caught up in expensive litigation\u2014and this bill may, and let us hope it does, go some way to ensuring it does not happen\u2014we will remain concerned about the continuing and often secretive direction towards free trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe would love to know what is going on with the Trans-Pacific Partnership arrangement at the moment, where we have no idea as to the level that something like this bill may effectively be needed, or whether a secretive free-trade agreement may, in fact, lock us out of even being able to use our Trade (Safeguard Measures) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe need to get a better balance in terms of how we do our trade. We need to be moving on from the free-trade mantra to a fair and a socially and environmentally justifiable trade. While we carry on down this path of free-trade agreements, our manufacturers and producers continue to lose out. I notice that, of course, some producers may appear not to be losing out, because it appears that milk powder and maybe a bit of beef\u2014and some coal, of course\u2014might be the dominant beneficiaries of free-trade agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe actually need to be looking at that other range of producers in New Zealand: the producers that used to be here before the free-trade deals. The opening up, in lots of ways, of trade has actually reduced us to having a series of monocultures. We have lost our diversity, and we have lost our self-reliance, and we have sent it off overseas through the unbalanced competition that has come in here. It is outrageous that this is about effectively supporting industry that is quite destructive and unsustainable in the New Zealand environment, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E We have so much riding on dairy, and some milk powder is produced in consistently unsustainable ways, and it does not need to be. Yet we have bills coming in that in a roundabout way support that continued unsustainable production. We need to shift to different systems. The sooner that our production is done in a sustainable way, the sooner we push into organisations like the World Trade Organisation the idea that sustainability needs to be at the absolute highest level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe Greens do want to keep New Zealand out of litigation, but we are presented bills like this that are based on a very unbalanced environmental and social situation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022584dad6b8b4e4862bb973c4113d4b704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022584dad6b8b4e4862bb973c4113d4b704\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a short call on this. I just want to bring a bit of context back to the discussion here tonight, and the context is a Government that has been progressing a number of bills for this country and for the betterment of it. And when we are talking about this Trade (Safeguard Measures) Bill, we are also seeing it in the context of a Government that is leading close to 28 high-level delegations around the world to try to secure better trade for this country\u2014a cooperation that is global, and a cooperation that is good for this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe bill itself is relatively simple. It is a safeguard, and it is hard to understand why any safeguard of this nature, which enhances trade in New Zealand, would be rejected. It is a safeguard replacing a prior measure. It is simplifying it for New Zealanders. It is here to stop, as a member mentioned earlier, the rapid influx of cheap imports. It is relatively simple. It is here to try to increase the time frame in which we can consider the need to safeguard our trade. It is simply to provide us with that opportunity to reflect rationally and appropriately and to take on, and take in, all the effects that we need to\u2014the main one being that we do not end up in the World Trade Organization facing problems and financial problems we do not need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThis is a responsible bill. It is a bill that highlights the continuing importance for this Government to promote good trade for the welfare of all New Zealanders, and I totally support it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00228179577301a74d1fbf9248792b4dfde2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228179577301a74d1fbf9248792b4dfde2\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to rise on behalf of the Labour Party to support this Trade (Safeguard Measures) Bill. What I will want to do is spend some time articulating why we support it and conclude with some remarks that I hope the other side will accept as constructive criticism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut before doing so, I do want to make mention of an event that took place yesterday, because I think I might not get another chance to put it on the record. I was privileged yesterday alongside my colleague the Labour Party leader, David Shearer, the Hon Phil Goff, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs to join with the Governor-General and many other MPs to participate in the funeral of the King of Tonga. I think it is important. I have a significant number of the Tongan community living in my electorate and they would want me to express to this House the appreciation that they have, and I convey that to the Governor-General, to the Government Ministers, and to all the parties who were present yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt was a huge, strong delegation, which, I think, signals the importance of the relationship that New Zealand has in the international area, but, more important in this case, with Tonga and the Pacific Island nations. We do have a close relationship not only on a personal and educational level, but also on trade, and so I thought it was appropriate that I do so at this particular time. I do want to place that on record, because irrespective of what the outside world might feel about the King of Tonga, the people of Tonga have a high regard for their late King. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI want to do that because only today I have been advised by some in the Tongan community that they are complaining to this Government, and I have encouraged that complaint to go to the Minister of Foreign Affairs as well as to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I know it is hard for the Government to choose who goes and who does not go, but, in this particular case, I have asked the Tongan Advisory Council to lay its complaint directly as to why it was not part of that delegation. I thought: \u201CGet it on record. Where credit is due, place that. But then also make it known to this Government about what the Tongan Advisory Council is intending to do.\u201D So those are my comments to preface. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAs I said, the Labour Party does support this bill. After all, it is a bill that began under the Labour Government with the good work of the Hon Lianne Dalziel, and I think it is important, as mentioned by other speakers, that we take this quite seriously. The safeguard measures are to try to ensure that duties are placed on certain goods that come into the country, particularly where certain industries might be under threat. I am not a member of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee so I did not get a chance to hear the submitters, although I understand there were five submitters from significant organisations in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut it was interesting reading some of the report that, in terms of our used tyres, we have lost some significant industry because we did not place enough safeguards on certain goods. I will give you an example. We have lost the footwear industry as regards all types of children\u2019s, men\u2019s, and women\u2019s footwear. It was interesting that over a 2-year period, when we removed the protections on our borders, the volumes of import in regard to footwear increased by 124 percent. As a result of that not only did we lose the market share, the profitability, and the return on investment, but we lost, I suspect, thousands of jobs. Again, I am belabouring the point that there is a role for appropriate safeguards in order to protect our local industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that I found for men\u2019s and boys\u2019 underwear that the removal of the licensing controls over those particular goods allowed for imports to increase by 289 percent over a 2-year period. Again, what we have witnessed over the past as a result of not having those safeguards or those protections on our borders with regard to those goods is loss\u2014the complete loss, I would say\u2014in that industry: the loss of profitability, the loss of our sharemarket, and also the loss of hundreds, if not thousands, of jobs. Again with used tyres, I note that in terms of used tyres for motor cars and light commercial vehicles over the 1-year period of 1992-93 there was an increase of 52 percent in our imports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that the temporary safeguard authority did not think that safeguard measures were needed at that particular time. There are also the abrasive discs in 1995, which are the grinding wheels, or the cut-off wheels, and imports increased by 28 percent over a 1-year period. Again the temporary safeguard authority concluded that there was no ground for safeguard measures. The point I am making is that Labour supports having these safeguard measures because I think where certain industries are threatened by imports we need to act fast, and we need to act decisively in order to protect those goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut also we need to protect the profitability in our own sharemarket, because in this day and age, as this Government knows, we are not only going through a recession but we have hit depression. I understand from some of my mates who are at the Ports of Auckland that a recession is when their neighbour loses their job, but a depression is when not only their neighbour loses their job but everybody else in that neighbourhood loses their job. There is a real need for us to be protective of our manufacturers in particular, and I hope that in the years ahead we can do more work in order to increase and support and encourage the manufacturing industry. I do not think that we are really taking the full potential of the manufacturing sector and being able to ensure that there is a deliberate and more determined plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI suppose that brings me to my criticism of tonight, and, as I said, I hope the Government does take it by way of constructive criticism. It has taken us almost 4 years to have this bill come to the House. As I said earlier, it began with the previous Labour Government, with the good work of my colleague Lianne Dalziel. It went to its first reading in 2009 and there were only five submitters. There were not hundreds or thousands of submitters, so I do not think the select committee really took a lot of time to deliberate on this. But only now is this Government bringing it in for the second reading. We should have had this in the House some time ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI suppose what that highlights is that it reinforces what we have been saying all the time about this Government. Where is the deliberate plan for protecting our industries, for boosting our economy, for creating jobs? Is it just simply rolling out the action points? Where is the comprehensive plan? Because of the ad hoc nature of the way this Government has treated this particular bill, we are continually on the back foot. The Government is not just focused on cuts to funding, cuts of public sector jobs; this House will recall when this Government first came into power the mantra for its cuts to the public sector was that it was capping the workforce. It was not cutting the workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de43af863114cd2851aacb102fcd316\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Capping, not cutting. Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2011431c99944dcaff98aba01b327b2\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Today the public sector has lost over 5,000 jobs across all Government departments and other State-owned enterprises. That is over 5,000 jobs. I also understand there are over 2,500 jobs still unfilled, and the morale of the public sector is so low at this particular time that I am hopeful that this Government acts quickly. Simply merging Government departments is not going to get us to where this economy needs to get. We need jobs and this bill should have been in the House a long, long time ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022782e473fcbb445cd858267eac2217d96\u0022\u003EBuilding Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f188869650e94ec8a2387a69a5ddd9b0\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022f067dc7c143743738c7fbff6fbecf115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f067dc7c143743738c7fbff6fbecf115\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a first time. I intend to move at the appropriate time that this bill, the Building Amendment Bill (No 4), be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee, and that that committee report back to the House on or before 31 July 2012. The Building Act 2004 is the primary legislation that governs the building and construction sector in New Zealand. I want to make sure that members are fully aware of just how vitally important to our economy the building and construction sector is. I bet you that if we did a survey of this House and asked how big the building and construction sector is as a contributor to our GDP relative to, say, agriculture, everybody would say they were quite different. In fact, they are almost identical in their contribution. They are almost exactly the same in their contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ETo get some efficiency gains into the sector is vitally important. The National Government conducted a major review of the Building Act. We went out and sought submissions and we got over 380 submissions on the current legislation. I think\u2014to be fair to Labour, because it was Labour\u2019s legislation\u2014in general, submissions were that the current system was not broken, but we did need to reduce some of the costs and some of the red tape that was in there and try to improve some of the efficiency in the system. It is more to do with some amendments to the legislation, rather than holus-bolus throw it out, because productivity in the building sector is very low, there is a lot of risk-averse behaviour, and there are a lot of things that are needed. I welcome and thank the huge number of people from organisations like the Registered Master Builders Federation, the Certified Builders Association, the Building Industry Federation, and a whole range of people who made submissions to this bill and who, I believe, will make submissions to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E Amendments to the primary Act have been done by two things. Just the other day in the House we passed the Building Amendment Act 2012, which actually started as the Building Amendment Bill (No 3), and now this bill, the No. 4 bill, brings them together. I think members will remember that when I was talking about the No. 3 bill in the last few weeks I said they should not judge it on its own merit but understand that it was part of a comprehensive package of changes. If I took the changes in both that No. 3 bill and now this No. 4 bill together, I think I could really lay out what the Government\u2019s goals are. The Government\u2019s goals are a sector with the necessary skills and capability to build it right first time, because so much of the building and construction sector up until now has been about redoing the work or coming back to fix up what was wrong. So it is about getting it right first time. The Government wants a sector that delivers good quality, affordable homes and buildings and contributes to a prosperous economy; a well-informed sector, a sector that shares its information and quickly identifies problems and corrects them; a sector where everyone involved in building work knows what they are responsible for and what they can rely on others to do; and, finally, consumers in the sector making informed decisions and understanding the risks and consequences of their decision. So that is what we are after. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ELet me take members through some of the substance of this bill, which is having its first reading tonight. This bill completes the Government\u2019s changes to the Building Act 2004. The review of it arose from, as I said, the big submissions we had received, and it supports the Government\u2019s goal of achieving a more efficient and productive building sector. I want to outline some of the key changes in this, the No. 4 bill. The bill introduces new consumer protection measures to help New Zealanders who are building or renovating their homes. New Zealand\u2019s housing stock\u2014and this is a good number for members\u2014is worth about $613 billion. That is about 10 times the value of the New Zealand stock exchange. So consumers and builders in the housing market deserve, I believe, to have clear rules about how they are expected to behave in such a ginormous industry with such a phenomenal asset base. The new measures in the bill will help homeowners to hold to account those responsible for building work and get any faults fixed quickly and more efficiently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe new measures include the requirement that all residential building work above a prescribed price must be documented in a written contract between the homeowner and the building contractor. This will ensure that both parties clearly understand from the outset what their rights and their responsibilities are. Before a contract is signed a building contractor will be required to provide information to their client about their company, the people who will be carrying out the work, their track record, and any surety or financial backing they have to cover the costs of fixing any faults. This, I believe, will help consumers make informed decisions about which contractors to chose, based on knowing those who have got a good track record with very few faults along the way, and that will be where I think the market will gravitate very quickly towards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EAll building contractors will be required to fix any defects in their work reported by their clients within 12 months of completion. This obligation is additional to the existing 10-year limit for people to be able to sue for defects in building work. The 12-month period is intended to be a \u201Cno questions asked\u201D requirement for the building contractor to stand behind the quality of their work, similar to how faulty goods can be returned and repaired if they are not fit for purpose. We can do it for our colour TVs, we can do it for our new motor cars, so we should be able to for new buildings. The builder must put right any defects so that somebody\u2019s new house\u2014and the service they receive\u2014is fit for purpose and the quality and the standard that they paid for. I think that consumers can expect no less. These measures will put in law what is already best practice in the industry\u2014and I need to stress that. There are a number of good practices out there that do a lot of this. Builders will be more likely to build it right the first time, because they clearly will be accountable for fixing their own mistakes. The Government anticipates these new consumer protection measures will support responsible, professional building contractors, and we expect to see contractors competing on quality as well as on price. The measures will also help owners to distinguish the professionals out there from the cowboys. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill also contains some other important amendments to the Building Act 2004 to improve efficiency and accountability in the sector. These include increasing from $100,000 to $200,000 the maximum penalty for doing building work without a building consent, which will better signal that the offence is one of the most serious offences that can be conducted in the Building Act; rewriting and reformatting schedule 1, which provides for exemptions for building consent requirements\u2014schedule 1 has been amended several times since 2004 and has become difficult to access and to understand\u2014and adding new powers for territorial authorities to deal with non-dangerous buildings that are near to dangerous buildings. Again, I think members from Canterbury will know that is an issue that has cropped up time and time again\u2014a building that is not dangerous but is right next to one that is\u2014and this is giving the local authorities some power to act on that building, which may be in danger. The Canterbury earthquake showed that there can be significant risks to undamaged buildings if they are next to those that are dangerous. Councils should be able to warn people about the danger, or, in the worst-case scenario, prevent people from entering those buildings that may be adversely affected by what is next door. There is better targeting of the requirements of the Dam Safety Scheme to include dams that are large dams by virtue of their size, and based on risk factors. Again, I am a Minister who is, and I think this Government is, very fixated on trying to actually deal with things on a risk-rated basis, and not on a one-size-fits-all basis. So this will, I think, improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the Dam Safety Scheme and reduce a lot of compliance costs for a lot of rural farmers, in particular, who have quite small dams on their land, but have actually had to comply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThis bill will empower consumers. It will increase confidence in the sector. It will reinforce incentives for the sector to upskill, and it will reduce compliance costs by clarifying regulatory requirements. I am delighted to say that I think that every one of the major organisations and industry groups that I have talked to about the substance of this bill are supportive of it. In fact, it was many of them that contributed to the writing of this as we got it to this point. I expect at the select committee it will get some modifications, but the actual general intent of it, I think, will weather the select committee and come back to this House in July. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u002211d657dbe17343508ce923b1a3229f11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211d657dbe17343508ce923b1a3229f11\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will support the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) to go to the Local Government and Environment Committee. We are in broad agreement with the direction of the Building Act review, which was initiated under the last Labour Government. I acknowledge that there has been a high degree of cross-party commitment to the Building Act review. Much has been said about the Building Act 1991 and the Building Act 2004. The 2004 Act was introduced in response to widespread weathertightness failure in the residential housing sector, which resulted from systemic problems, which we need to look at closely during the review process. It is important for us to fully understand what went wrong in all instances, not to apportion blame, but to learn valuable lessons that will minimise the risk of a failure in the future. This means we will need to be ready to adjust our regulatory frameworks in light of what we have learnt, and it is important for us to take a comprehensive approach. Let us say, for example, if I may use an analogy, that it is like launching a satellite. We simply cannot say: \u201CHey, let\u2019s get the satellite launched first and then sort out the navigation system later.\u201D We cannot do that. If we do, we will have dire consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EOn reflection of the way in which the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) was progressed, I think it is a fair for me to suggest that we should not give too much of a hard time to the Minister. The No. 3 bill was introduced in November 2010, received its first reading in December 2010, was referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee, and we received the select committee report 3 months later, which was 28 June 2011. The bill did not, however, receive its second reading until 28 February 2012, and that was less than 2 days before the licensed building practitioner scheme kicked in. The reason that this bill was rushed through was probably that unless it was passed into law, a number of good initiatives, including New Zealand\u2019s long DIY tradition, would not be able to continue in its current form. Overall, that bill was passed into law in a \u201Cwait, wait\u201D and \u201Churry, hurry\u201D fashion. That was not a good way to demonstrate competency of how the House should be run, but that should be the responsibility of the Leader of the House, not of the Minister for Building and Construction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe creation of a superministry looks interesting. From 1 July it will absorb the Ministry of Economic Development, Department of Labour, Ministry of Science and Innovation, and the Department of Building and Housing. To make it sound more like a military operation, shall I add that at 2400 hours on 1 July 2012 the superministry will absorb four ministries/agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EIt was only 2 years ago that the Ministry of Science and Innovation was even formed. Worse still, it was only last year that the Department of Building and Housing took over social housing policy. Transferring social housing policy from the Housing New Zealand Corporation to the Department of Building and Housing, and now removing it from the Department of Building and Housing to transfer it to somewhere else is just one example of National\u2019s expensive shuffling. Although its impact has yet to be felt, some say it is a good idea and that it may improve business efficacy; some say it is not a big deal and that it is just rearranging the deckchairs; some say it is a bad idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI am sure the Minister will have received an email from one of the top structural engineers in this country, Mr John Scarry, and I quote: \u201CThis is far worse than rearranging the deckchairs. It is like burning what few lifeboats there were on the deck of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg in order to keep the officers warm. Honestly, this is a continuation of all of the disasters that have afflicted the construction industry, and especially the structure profession for decades. Long periods of neglect, then the worst of changes at the worst possible time. One also has to question how a Government can do this sort of thing with regard to the Department of Building and Housing when its own royal commission into the Canterbury earthquake will not report back fully until near the end of this year.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI will quote from the briefing for the Minister for Building and Construction released under the Official Information Act: \u201CIt is estimated that social housing accounts for around one in five dwellings in New Zealand \u2026 The current delivery model for social housing is failing to meet the needs of a growing number of households \u2026\u201D. In addition to that, the Department of Building and Housing has taken on other work concerning the financial assistance package for owners of leaky homes and provided information, advice, and dispute resolution services for unit title holders. I quote: \u201CWith additional functions has come increased complexity in our work.\u201D That was what the officials said. What future impact it will have on the Department of Building and Housing we do not know. What is certain is uncertainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). Firstly, with regard to building consent authorities, there is an unbalanced allocation of risk and responsibility in practice. The bill will introduce a stepped, risk-based system that would see consenting and inspection effort by building consent authorities more tightly focused on that building work where the greatest risk exists. Secondly, with regard to building practitioners, under the Building Act 2004 the Department of Building and Housing established in November 2007 the licensed building practitioner scheme, which became effective from 1 March this year. Qualification and competency, in combination with other measures such as warranty and insurance, will help protect the interests of consumers. Thirdly, for better consumer protection there are some discussions about the joint and several liability model and the proportionate liability model. There are pros and cons, as evidenced from the Australian experience. I will be interested in listening to our stakeholders in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAlso, I am interested in the ideas of a surety. The 2010 data shows that approximately 50 percent of new buildings are covered by the surety products available in the market. That brings me to the fourth issue in respect of the New Zealand standards. From the briefing we note that an independent review found that the way standards are used in the system has not changed, despite changes in legislation in 1991 and 2004. Of the over 650 building-related international and New Zealand standards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b656c80d874175b8b6d71635aaf18b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, the time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022818e53fce59f4398be8e823593f06c59\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc37ee1f93de4721a087170a30c594ec\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This debate is interrupted and set down for resumption next sitting day. I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203288457c9149e9741a7b8475945c93a61be000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d47d9f6798424919a063e36f0662e2a4\u0022\u003EWednesday, 28 March 2012\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240a0f4e0d00f4123bd8e4a98b23a1743\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 29 March 2012)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226923e04c450248639b109f0d2bdb9817\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226923e04c450248639b109f0d2bdb9817\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fee1e94bf9904c2bbf549d214a638a5a\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u002217e67badaf8045c39052b50b63329192\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217e67badaf8045c39052b50b63329192\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: I move, That the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill and the Ng\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill be now read a third time. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Kua tae mai ahakoa te roa o te w\u0101 o te h\u012Bkoi kia tae ki t\u0113nei w\u0101, kua tae mai. N\u0101 reira, e tika ana kia mihi atu ki a koutou kua whakak\u012B nei i t\u014D t\u0101tou at\u0101mira nei, n\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou i \u014D t\u0101tou tini aitu\u0101. Ka hoki aku mahara ki a Bill Bird t\u014Dna kaha ki te whai i t\u0113nei ker\u0113me, tae noa ki t\u014Dna matenga. N\u0101 reira ng\u0101 mate ki a r\u0101tou, haere, okioki pai mai. \u0112rangi, ko te mea nui i t\u0113nei h\u0101ora ko koutou, ng\u0101 m\u014Drehu o ng\u0101 t\u012Bpuna m\u0101tua e noho tahi nei, kua whakakotahitia e te kaupapa e whakakotahi ai t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei r\u0101. N\u0101 reira, nau mai, haere mai r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Greetings. You have arrived at last, even though it has taken a long time for the journey to make it here; it has arrived. So it is fitting that I acknowledge you because you have filled our gallery to capacity\u2014well done. I acknowledge our many, many deaths as well. My thoughts go back to Bill Bird. He worked hard to see this claim through, right up to the time of his death. So farewell, the dead; rest well. Let the dead remain there with the dead. The most important thing at this hour, however, is that you are remnants of the ancestral forefathers seated there as one, and bound together by the same policy. Welcome, welcome.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis legislation brings together the Treaty of Waitangi claims of the descendants of Apa-H\u0101pai-Take-Take, Tangiharuru, and Toi Te Huatahi. These are peoples of the Kuhawaea and Kaingaroa Plains, Rangitaiki and Whirinaki Rivers, and the lands of Te Wh\u0101iti and Minginui, Te Whirinaki Te Pua-o-T\u0101ne, Urewera lands in the east, and the mountains T\u0101whiuau and T\u016Bwatawata. I welcome the descendants of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare to this House. Ko T\u0101whiuau te maunga, ko Rangitaiki te awa, ko Rangip\u014D te wehenga o te tuna, ko Ng\u0101ti Manawa te iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[T\u0101whiuau is the mountain, Rangitaiki is the river, Rangip\u014D is where the eels head off in different directions, Ng\u0101ti Manawa is the tribe.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe late Ng\u0101ti Manawa rangatira Bill Bird was at the Rangitahi Marae with his people when I had the privilege of representing the Crown at the tribe\u2019s signing of the deed of settlement back in December 2009. Bill was a leader, a visionary, but, importantly, Bill was a realist. \u201CWe\u2019ve got to get real. The problem is real, so the solution has to be real.\u201D, he once told a reporter. Throughout Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s many years of negotiations with the Crown, Bill and many others, including the late Denise Howden, made sure the Crown got real. Ng\u0101ti Manawa leaders urged their people to stay focused, and, most important, to stick together. Ng\u0101ti Manawa, me t\u014Dtara pakaua t\u0101tou, kaua e noho t\u014Dtara w\u0101hi rua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Ng\u0101ti Manawa, we must be like a sinewy t\u014Dtara and not a splintered one.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Manawa\u2014united we stand, divided we fall. Bill spoke of how he wanted his people to get out of grievance mode and into iwi dependency mode. He also spoke of how hard this would be while the sins of the Crown had not been identified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe Crown\u2019s sins against Ng\u0101ti Manawa people have taken many forms, perpetuated over many years, and remain etched into the lives of generations of the people of Tangiharuru. Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s claims relate to the region around Murupara, the Kaingaroa Plains\u2014the central Bay of Plenty. Their claims relate to the consequences of the Crown actions during the New Zealand Wars, Crown actions and omissions with regards to the native land laws, and Crown land purchasing techniques. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe Crown recognises Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s traditional historical, cultural, and spiritual interests, and seeks to strengthen those bonds through the vesting of sites of particular significance, cultural redress, and first right of refusal to purchase certain commercial properties. Significantly, today marks the gifting of the ancestral mountain T\u0101whiuau to the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa, and then the gifting back of the maunga to all the people of New Zealand who will recognise Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s sacred association with T\u0101whiuau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E Inland iwi Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s destiny has been for ever linked with their waterways\u2014their ancestral river. The Crown\u2019s takeover of the Rangitaiki and other rivers began in the late 19th century. Large parts of New Zealand were soon powered by three hydroelectric dams located throughout the region. However, while New Zealand benefited, Ng\u0101ti Manawa suffered. They suffered the comprehensive loss of their ancestral river, the destruction of their primary food source, and the demise of their cultural and economic asset base. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s legislation will see the creation of a body to restore Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare mana over the Rangitaiki and other waterways. They will by law take part in a management regime that will seek to restore and protect their ancestral waters. The Rangitaiki River Forum will be comprised of equal iwi and council representatives in order to protect and enhance the health and well-being of the Rangitaiki River catchment and its tributaries. This shared redress is a model for future relationships between iwi M\u0101ori and the Crown. Ko au ko te Whirinaki; ko te Whirinaki ko au. I am the Whirinaki; the Whirinaki is me. The people of Ng\u0101ti Whare\u2019s kaitiaki bond to Te Whirinaki Te Pua-o-T\u0101ne spans generations and has endured the challenges of land alienation, disenfranchisement, industrial expansion, and environmental destruction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn recent years the rest of the world has discovered something Ng\u0101ti Whare people have always known\u2014that the Whirinaki is a unique taonga found nowhere else on the Earth. Likened by international conservationists to a living cathedral, the Whirinaki is one of the planet\u2019s last prehistoric rainforests. Of enormous cultural and spiritual value to Ng\u0101ti Whare, the Whirinaki contains numerous w\u0101hi tapu and sites of significance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAfter years of negotiations, today the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Whare are breaking new ground regarding the settlement of Treaty of Waitangi claims. Their co-governance plan for Te Whirinaki Te Pua-o-T\u0101ne forest park is another model for future negotiations. Included in this unique arrangement is Crown assistance to enable Ng\u0101ti Whare to regenerate indigenous mata\u012B, rimu, and kahikatea in areas of pine forest within Whirinaki Crown forest licensed land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe claims of Ng\u0101ti Whare also relate to the Crown\u2019s shameful actions against their members during the New Zealand Wars\u2014actions that have resonated through generations of families over 144 years. The storming of Te H\u0101rima P\u0101 is an event that has lived in the memories and the hearts of Ng\u0101ti Whare since the Crown raided this k\u0101inga in May 1869. Several men were killed in the surprise attack\u2014some elderly, some trying to escape with their families. According to Ng\u0101ti Whare oral tradition, women were raped during the invasion, and, as a consequence, some committed suicide. Fifty women and children were imprisoned. Te H\u0101rima P\u0101, their home, was destroyed along with other k\u0101inga, cultivations, and provisions in the valley, as per the Crown\u2019s scorched earth policy at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EToday the Crown acknowledges with deep regret the harm inflicted on the people of Ng\u0101ti Whare during and after the attack on Te H\u0101rima. Today the Crown unreservedly apologises to Ng\u0101ti Whare for these actions. Ko T\u016Bwatawata te maunga, ko Whirinaki te awa, ko Wharep\u0101kau te tangata, ko Ng\u0101ti Whare te iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[T\u016Bwatawata is the mountain, Whirinaki is the river, Wharep\u0101kau is the man, Ng\u0101ti Whare is the tribe.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAs we stand together today, the Crown alongside Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare, we look at the past with our eyes wide open. We do not shy away. All those things Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare families have lost due to the actions of the Crown can never be totally replaced, and yet today, Ng\u0101ti Whare and Ng\u0101ti Manawa settle their grievances with the Crown and, in doing so, honour us all with their mana. To quote a Ng\u0101ti Whare saying: \u201CKia mana ai \u014D r\u0101tou whakapapa\u201D. By their actions, they instil their whakapapa with mana. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022e99945133a024c49af4bc2f963ad36aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e99945133a024c49af4bc2f963ad36aa\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E E tautokotia atu te mihimihi m\u014D t\u014D t\u0101tou Minita M\u0101ori ki a koutou katoa e tae tahi mai ki konei, e mau ake i ng\u0101 nawe, ng\u0101 taumaha mai r\u0101 n\u014D, m\u014D te otinga o ng\u0101 ker\u0113me. Ahakoa te roaroa hoki o te tae ki t\u0113nei w\u0101, e, kua tae atu koutou. N\u014D reira, mihi kau ana. Mihi kau ana ki a koutou e noho r\u014Droa atu i roto i te ngahere, i ng\u0101 w\u0101hi e tuku k\u014Drero atu t\u014D t\u0101tou Minita. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Ahakoa ng\u0101 piki, ng\u0101 heke, ng\u0101 pakanga, i konei k\u0113 t\u0101tou hei whai kaha, hei oti pai m\u014D koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EE tika atu ki te mihi atu ki a r\u0101tou e rere atu, e haere atu ki t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101hi. E m\u014Dhio atu t\u0101tou ahakoa n\u0101 wai, n\u014D whea, e tae atu katoa ki reira, ng\u0101 tangata p\u0113r\u0101 i a Bill, i a r\u0101tou m\u0101, ng\u0101 t\u016B pakeke e kore i konei. M\u014Dhio atu t\u0101tou, he nui atu ng\u0101 kanohi k\u0101re i konei e wh\u0101rakitia atu te huarahi m\u014D te tae p\u0113nei tonu. N\u014D reira, i a koutou katoa e mihi kau ana. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. E hiahia ana ki te tuku k\u014Drero m\u014D ia ingoa e waiho atu w\u0113tahi ki waho, \u0113ngari ki a koutou katoa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[I endorse the sentiments of welcome expressed by our Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs to you all who have arrived here with your grievances and burdens from way back about the completion of claims. Even though it has taken a very long time to reach this point, hey! You have made it. And so I congratulate you. I do appreciate the great length of time you have waited in the bush and at places where our Minister sent you information. I acknowledge your patience. Well done. Despite the ups, downs, and differences, we were here working hard to ensure that it works out well for you in the finish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EOf course, it is appropriate that we acknowledge those ones who have passed away and gone. We know that regardless who it is or where they are from, persons of that calibre, like Bill, all of them\u2014elders who are no longer here\u2014will eventually end up in that place. We know that there are many, many faces that we no longer see today. They have gone ahead to line the pathway to that place. And so I salute you all. Even though I would like to say something to each of you individually, it is possible that I will leave someone out and hence the salutation; greetings all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ELabour will be supporting the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill and the Ng\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill, as we have done from 2004, and we look forward to a great day finishing well for these people, who have travelled a long, long way. I join with the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs in the references that he has made to the dastardly deeds of the Crown and everything else, certainly mentioning clearly about trying to put things right. It is not everything that should be put right, but at least it is a start in relation to nationhood. We preach and preach at times about nationhood, but certainly one wonders whether we are serious about it. And today in this claim from Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare, certainly we hope that it is a start to correct those things that were not good, that were not nice, and that certainly have sat around for a long, long time. I want to commend Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare for their patience, for their perseverance, and most of all for having enough courage to get to this stage of the settlement process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101ti Manawa agreement in principle was signed on 18 September 2009. It certainly is important to mention Bill Bird. There are people whom you meet in working in this place when you are a long time working with M\u0101oridom. There are certain characters who stand out, and Bill was just that. He had a smile a mile long. I saw him convince P\u0101keh\u0101 minds to turn round, through his sheer tenacity. Certainly Bill is missed here today, and so is Maramena Vercoe and all of those people who really supported this thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe legislation settles all remaining historical Treaty claims of Ng\u0101ti Manawa. Both iwi were part of the central North Island deal in 2008. The real issue for me in relation to Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare is that they took the time to step back in relation to their settlement pathway, to make sure that the central North Island deal was settled, and they need to be recognised for that. In the financial redress through the central North Island forest lands settlements, Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s share is $12.2 million. We need to recognise that Ng\u0101i Manawa\u2019s negotiations were put on hold, and that they had some real tensions in getting here. There is special unique redress in relation to Ng\u0101ti Manawa, and I wish there was more of this, Minister, in other settlements. It is $2.6 million for special projects nominated by Ng\u0101ti Manawa. That certainly is recognising and showing courage in the trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI think one of the great things in Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s settlement is the name changes. I wish it could happen a lot more. I get sick of looking at Lochinvar Street or Westwood Way or whatever, and knowing that they have M\u0101ori names. There needs to be correction, and that Lake Aniwhenua and Aniwhenua Falls will be changed to \u0100niwaniwa is something worthwhile to recognise. I think it is good enough to do a lot more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ETe R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Manawa fisheries advisory committee will have a direct link with the Ministers of conservation and fisheries. It will be facilitated in relation to having a key role between Ng\u0101ti Manawa, the Crown, Environment Bay of Plenty, and the energy industry reps to discuss these issues. It really is important that Ng\u0101ti Manawa takes the role, especially with all the agitation about fracking and tracking and everything else, and that they are in at the start in relation to all of these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn 1874 and 1873 Ng\u0101ti Manawa agreed to lease several large blocks of land to the Crown and private parties. However, despite agreeing to lease these blocks, the Crown would not pay regular rent until the Native Land Court had determined ownership of it. Court hearings caused great disruption and hardship for Ng\u0101ti Manawa on several occasions between 1878 and 1890. In 1895 Ng\u0101ti Manawa were party to the agreement to establish the Urewera District Native Reserve. The Crown agreed with M\u0101ori that the land in the reserve would be under tribal administration, and excluded it from the Native Land Court process. Despite this agreement, the Crown later enacted legislation restoring the Native Land Court process and facilitating purchases from individual owners in 1914. By 1927 Ng\u0101ti Manawa were virtually landless. Some reserves were set aside for them from the land they had sold, but they were inadequate and did not include all the land Ng\u0101ti Manawa thought had been reserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThere are issues in relation to future protocols. The deed of settlement provides for certain Ministers to issue protocols that set out how the respective agencies will interact with and consult Ng\u0101ti Manawa when carrying out statutory duties and functions. The protocols have been tailored to reflect the aspirations of Ng\u0101ti Manawa. These Ministers are the fisheries Minister, the Minister of Conservation, the Minister of Energy and Resources, and the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage. Not wanting to name the Ministers, but I want to suggest to Ng\u0101ti Manawa to make sure that you get a good team up there and that those Ministers stick to the charter, not like in 1927. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn the case of Ng\u0101ti Whare the deed of settlement by Chris Finlayson, the Minister, is dated 8 and 12 December 2009. I want to mention my wh\u0101nau over there James Carlson and Bronco, K\u014Dhiti K\u014Dhiti, Lena Brew\u2014and it is no good carrying on naming people, because you leave people out. The financial and commercial redress provided from the central North Island settlement has a similarity to Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s. Co-management of the Whirinaki Forest Park with the East Coast Bay of Plenty Conservation Board is part of the unique special redress. There are 640 hectares of Crown land, 10 percent of the central North Island forest lands, for Project Whirinaki, a regeneration project, and I think that is where the iwi show their kindness. Somebody else chops the forest down and gets the lumber, and they miss out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn relation to Ng\u0101ti Whare, Minginui and Te Wh\u0101iti were huge workforce towns. M\u0101ori are loyal, especially in Ng\u0101ti Whare and Ng\u0101ti Manawa. If you take Murupara, those three towns had huge workforce populations. In relation to the atypical departure of the Crown, a lot of people were put asunder with high unemployment, unnecessarily failing economic businesses and things like that, and the M\u0101ori people there suffered. It certainly is a great testament to their ability to be here to finalise these settlements. I think we need to remember that M\u0101ori were loyal for years and generations. They worked for the company, they built Murupara, they built Te Wh\u0101iti, they built Minginui, and they lived in them and they thrived. They are towns that are still thriving. There are empty houses, and there are a whole lot of sections and opportunities for these two great iwi in relation to this settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this legislation to the end, and we want to thank Minister Finlayson especially for his efforts, and to thank those members of the Office of Treaty Settlements, the Crown Forestry Rental Trust, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, and all those officials who were sometimes damned for whatever they may do. Today certainly is a day for Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare, and I wish them all the best. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00229aa2a31a2bbc4b7ca542f6bf762ca685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aa2a31a2bbc4b7ca542f6bf762ca685\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I thank previous speakers and, like them, welcome the representatives of both iwi who have travelled for this very special occasion from their home in the centre of the universe. Your journey towards this settlement\u2014and, it is fair to say, the Crown\u2019s as well\u2014has taken some unexpected byways. From the inception of the push towards settling central North Island claims back in 2002 to the developments last year, you have been at the forefront of settlement negotiations. I too acknowledge the leadership, the pragmatism, and the hard work of both negotiating teams. It is through their diligent labour that we are here today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI too want to acknowledge those who are no longer with us, particularly Bill Bird, who provided key leadership and guidance for Ng\u0101ti Manawa to come to the settlement. I myself will never forget the last time I met him at a hotel in Rotorua. He was in dreadful pain. It took him quite some time to get out of the car, but he was absolutely determined to ensure that the settlement addressed the grievances of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and that there was meaningful redress that would benefit the iwi both now and in the future. I also want to pay homage to Denise Howden, a negotiator for Ng\u0101ti Manawa, who also passed away. Her legacy will live for ever in the settlement, especially in the commercial redress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Whare have also lost people on the long path to settlement. I recognise Jack Ohlson, whose recent passing is still being mourned at Te Wh\u0101iti. I am saddened that he passed away prior to this legislation being enacted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThis is a very important day, not only for those of us gathered here but for those who have gone before us and those who will follow in our footsteps. It was once said about M\u0101ori that they are not just knowing the grievances or feeling the grievances but living the grievances, and both iwi here know this in their hearts, because their grievances are longstanding and significant. They have been passed on from generation to generation. Each has had an obligation and a duty to seek resolution in a meaningful way, and these bills, the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill and the Ng\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill, address those grievances. They settle all of the iwi\u2019s historical Treaty of Waitangi claims. Both iwi have a close relationship, and their areas of interest overlap. It is important to remember that these iwi are intrinsically linked, so it is fitting that the two iwi come together as wh\u0101nau to reach settlement at the same time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn November 2003 the Crown recognised the mandates of Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Whare, and negotiations began with the signing of joint terms of negotiation in 2004. Both iwi were part of the Central North Island Iwi Collective, whose forestry claims were addressed as part of that settlement, and, since the settlement, Ng\u0101ti Whare and Ng\u0101ti Manawa have progressed largely in parallel to complete their comprehensive settlements. In 2009 the Crown and Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Whare and Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Manawa signed separate deeds of settlement to settle all of their outstanding historical Treaty of Waitangi claims. It is significant and a reflection of their longstanding whakapapa ties that these two have travelled through the legislative stage together in this settlement legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI now want to turn to each of the settlements. The lodging of the Wai 66 claim some 25 years ago started the journey for Ng\u0101ti Whare. In early 2003 the Crown gave priority to settling the historical claims within the central North Island. Ng\u0101ti Whare responded by mandating Te R\u016Bnanga to enter into direct negotiations with the Crown. Your vision and leadership throughout both the Central North Island Iwi Collective and the negotiations have been critical to the success of the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Whare achieving this settlement today. Your package sets an example for current and future settlements, with unique arrangements that have been developed for the forest within the Whirinaki Valley. Co-governance of the forest park centres on development of a conservation management plan approved jointly by the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Whare. This is the first such arrangement in the history of Treaty settlements. I commend your leadership in recognising the need to find solutions that work for all parties. The idea of the co-governance arrangement in relation to the forest park has paved the way for other iwi where a long-term view of the Crown-iwi relationship needs to be taken. In addition, the regeneration scheme is another way in which Ng\u0101ti Whare is forging a new path, and I certainly hope that the trees I planted are doing well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI now turn to the Ng\u0101ti Manawa settlement. Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s settlement is intended to meet the traditional, historical, cultural, and spiritual needs of the iwi. They were loyal to the Crown during the New Zealand Wars, but this did not protect them. Like iwi throughout the country they suffered from the effects of the native land laws and the Crown\u2019s land purchasing techniques, particularly in respect of the land they wished to retain. Twentieth-century land, river, and forestry development by the Crown added to their misfortune, and I pick up on what Mr Horomia said. If one wants any justification for Treaty settlements and why they are so necessary, let them go to Minginui today. Let them see just how bad things are and can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe key aspects of Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s cultural redress package aim to reinvigorate the relationship between Ng\u0101ti Manawa and sites of significance in their area of interest, including the vesting of sites of particular significance to Ng\u0101ti Manawa, the erection of a pou r\u0101hui to mark traditional iwi boundaries, and the creation of a body to restore Ng\u0101ti Manawa\u2019s and Ng\u0101ti Whare\u2019s mana over their ancestral river and their relationship with eel and tuna. I look forward to when Ng\u0101ti Manawa once again reclaim ownership and kaitiaki of their sacred maunga. I honour your generosity to the nation in consenting to gift T\u0101whiuau to the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EGiven the significant historical and contemporary links of the iwi, it is appropriate that the two settlement bills include joint redress. In a spirit of pragmatism and fellowship, which has been ever-present in these negotiations, both iwi jointly negotiated the return of four sites, which will be vested in the names of their ancestors. Of particular note in these settlement packages is the innovative and groundbreaking development of a co-governance regime for the Rangitaiki River. Both iwi broke new ground with this redress. The redress providing for new engagement between iwi and local government, developed by you, has become the model for Treaty settlements and has been sought after in all subsequent negotiations. It is typical of the generous nature of your negotiations that you have sought to include all iwi with interest in the Rangitaiki River in this redress. Both iwi told me how important inclusiveness is to these arrangements, and I understand that seats are available for all iwi with interests, to be provided through their own settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Crown is acutely aware when it enters into negotiations that full restitution is impossible. We cannot turn back the clock. We cannot return all that was taken. I am very aware of the generosity of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare in accepting this, and pay tribute to that now. Their gift to the nation is gratefully respected and acknowledged. I acknowledge the trustees of both iwi. Their dedication and determination have been vital in the path towards achieving settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI want to thank other Ministers\u2014both present and past\u2014and departments involved in this negotiation. Many people from across the political spectrum have made important contributions to this settlement over the years. As has oft been said, although individuals, companies, and Governments come and go, the iwi will always remain. I very much look forward to keeping in touch and to seeing your iwi prosper and grow in the years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4da521dbaf1480d9f67341ba1c57ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4da521dbaf1480d9f67341ba1c57ab3\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, Ng\u0101ti Manawa, Ng\u0101ti Whare, koutou i hara mai ki te whakarongo ki \u0113nei o ng\u0101 mahi kei mua i te aroaro o te Whare P\u0101remata. E tika ana me mihi atu ki a r\u0101tou e kawe ana i ng\u0101 wawata o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u016Bpuna, r\u0101tou kua huri ki tua o te \u0101rai, heke iho mai ki a koutou i t\u0113nei rangi. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare; you have come to listen to these addresses before the House of Parliament. It is fitting that we acknowledge those who have passed away and who carried the aspirations of the ancestral forefathers, and you as well present here today. Congratulations to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI spent much of the second reading and Committee stage of the legislation commenting on the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Treaty settlement, and for that reason I will confine my comments today to Ng\u0101ti Whare. Ng\u0101ti Whare has significant historical kin connections to Maniapoto. In fact, on Saturday there will be a commemoration at \u014Cr\u0101kau to remember what happened in the 1860s in terms of the wars between M\u0101ori iwi and the Crown. There is a profound sense of gratitude amongst Waikato Maniapoto for those of Ng\u0101ti Whare who joined my ancestors at \u014Cr\u0101kau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn a sense, the topographical features of \u014Cr\u0101kau tell the story far better than I could in this House today, and also the living memories of the descendants of those families who fought at \u014Cr\u0101kau and passed the story down from generation to generation. Indeed, if you visit \u014Cr\u0101kau you will understand when you go there that for those people who went there to fight, there was no ability to retreat. When you went there to fight, you had to fight until the end. For that reason I pay tribute to Ng\u0101ti Whare in this House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EFrom \u014Cr\u0101kau was the well-known saying \u201CKa whaiwhai tonu m\u0101tou, ake, ake, ake\u201D. [\u201CWe will continue to fight on for ever\u201D.] It is within that spirit of kin connection and historical gratitude of those relationships that I want to make my contribution. Treaty settlements are more than just words on paper. Treaty settlements are a living recognition that, despite the hurt and the historical actions that took place between iwi and the Crown, this is a real attempt to try to restore some of that hurt and seek redress, albeit insufficient, I think, in the living memories of the descendants today. But it is a start, and it is an important start to ensure that future generations can move forward. T\u0113nei e mihi ana ki a koutou, Ng\u0101ti Whare. [I acknowledge you, Ng\u0101ti Whare.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are key components to their settlement that on paper are very straightforward, but again I make the point that if Treaty settlements are to be more than words on paper, it is how Ng\u0101ti Whare and the Crown\u2014and, indeed, instruments of the Crown, which means Government departments and local government\u2014give life and breath to the living aspirations of what Ng\u0101ti Whare are trying to achieve. There is a historical account that is recognised by and large through the Crown apology, there is cultural redress, and there is financial and commercial redress that has been achieved through the central North Island settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the Crown apology, in part what it does is rectify a story that was not told that can be told now. Probably the real living legacy of a Crown apology will be in the ways that future generations of Ng\u0101ti Whare can learn their history and have it recognised in their schools and in the education system. That will be, I think, a go-forward opportunity to retell and keep telling a very important part of Ng\u0101ti Whare\u2019s history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn the cultural redress part of the settlement there are some very, I think, innovative opportunities here going forward. The fact that the Whirinaki Conservation Park has an opportunity for a joint conservation role between the Crown, the Department of Conservation, and Ng\u0101ti Whare through a conservation management plan affords itself a real living legacy to what a model for conservation management can look like in a country like New Zealand. We do not need to look to Australia and the Kakadu National Park; we can look to our own models and our own unique opportunities to have an approach that will be about not only preserving the natural history of New Zealand but also telling the story as it applies within that conservation park, and Ng\u0101ti Whare can make a huge contribution in that part. Ng\u0101ti Whare is making a commitment to regenerating indigenous planting in that area, and there is a regeneration project fund that has been established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are also components of the settlement that I think are important to highlight in terms of the transfer of ownership of important sites. About seven sites have been transferred, or vested, and they are outlined in the summary statement of the deed of settlement. But the story I really want to tell that sits alongside this is the acreage that is given back. A lot of the general public are under this misleading thought that a whole lot is being given back to M\u0101ori. It is just a small drop in the bucket, but, as I say, an important drop, and it is a start, but it should be recognised that M\u0101ori continue to make the greatest contribution to this nation in the way that they are entering into the Treaty settlement process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWith the seven sites that have been handed back, 36.2 hectares, in terms of the general benefits to New Zealanders what remains with regards to those sites is the protection of conservation values, the assurance that public access will continue to be guaranteed over these sites, and the retention of reservation status. This is all a great contribution on Ng\u0101ti Whare\u2019s part to the nation, and that must be recognised in the House today. There will also be a return of five w\u0101hi tapu sites, which in total amount to 10.3 hectares. These are very important w\u0101hi tapu sites that have significant stories, which, in time, if the aspirations of the conservation plan are realised, could be a real opportunity again to preserve and tell the history as Ng\u0101ti Whare would like to tell that history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere is a joint vesting of four sites totalling 13 hectares, and the Whirinaki Conservation Park will have a new name. I would hope, and the comment was made by Parekura Horomia before me, that we should not have to have a Treaty settlement to rectify the misspelling of M\u0101ori names, which goes through a process of going to the New Zealand Geographic Board and then it becomes whether you have an \u201Ch\u201D. The real opportunity through these Treaty settlements is to, I think, put a stake in the ground and say that many of our names, actually, are not spelt correctly, and as a matter of course, in terms of ensuring New Zealand\u2019s history is told with the inclusion of M\u0101ori, ensure that the spelling of those names is rectified. I want to applaud Ng\u0101ti Whare for making that particular start. As I say, it should not take them a Treaty settlement to continue along this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are statutory acknowledgments as a part of this Treaty settlement to recognise the special association that Ng\u0101ti Whare have in connection with certain sites. In time, I believe that these acknowledgments should be recognised in the planning process undertaken by the regional council. These are important sites that have been recognised through a Treaty settlement, and in the planning process of the regional council it should recognise, again, the importance to Ng\u0101ti Whare and how it can be included in terms of long-term planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are many other aspects of the Ng\u0101ti Whare settlement, all too many for me to comment on today, but I would like to speak to one part, which the Minister really concluded his speech on, and that is the innovation around a joint management approach to the Rangitaiki River. The real opportunity here, if it is to be the living embodiment of what is intended by Ng\u0101ti Whare as I read it, is to ensure that they have a continued and ongoing opportunity for the management and governance decisions around their waterways that is not heavily dependent on the Minister of the day or on the Government of the day\u2014that is instituted into a long-term process. Ng\u0101ti Whare should not have to be arguing continually if there is a change at the local government level through the planning process and the regional policy statement process to have their views with regards to the management of the Rangitaiki continually resurfacing during that planning cycle. This Treaty settlement should give them absolute assurance that their aspirations for Rangitaiki will be timeless, regardless of who is sitting at a local government level or on the Crown benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are also relationship protocols, and again this is a really important issue, given the nature of restructuring that has taken place. It is absolutely critical that the Crown undertake some obligation to monitor how the relationship protocols with the Ministry of Fisheries, Ministry for Culture and Heritage, and Ministry for the Environment are occurring, and continue to give life to what is intended in the spirit of Ng\u0101ti Whare\u2019s Treaty settlement. If this is going to realise its true aspirations, then there should not have to be a to-ing and fro-ing between Ng\u0101ti Whare leaders and the Crown to say \u201CYour ministries are not doing what the Treaty settlement intended them to do.\u201D, and that has certainly been the experience of some iwi to date, in terms of giving life to their relationship protocols. This is not to ascribe blame to any individual in particular; it is just the nature of how things work and what people lose sight of when it comes to practical implementation of Treaty settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere is also a letter of engagement, which I think, again, is an important part of the Treaty settlement. I want to pay tribute to Ng\u0101ti Whare in the House today, I want to pay tribute to Ng\u0101ti Manawa in the House today, who have come to hear these speeches, and I want to give my absolute confidence and assurance that we on the Labour benches want to see you live these settlements for the benefit of future generations. Kia ora koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022004739d72592467c89c0b9912034c22a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022004739d72592467c89c0b9912034c22a\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kei te mihi nui ki a koutou ki ng\u0101 rangatira m\u0101, ng\u0101 kuia m\u0101, ki ng\u0101 hap\u016B katoa o Ng\u0101ti Whare me Ng\u0101ti Manawa. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge you greatly, leaders, elderly womenfolk, and all subtribes of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. Salutations to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure to take the call for the Greens to confirm our support today for these settlement bills, the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill and the Ng\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill. I would like to begin by acknowledging and echoing the remarks made by Minister Sharples and by the Hon Parekura Horomia and in particular their recognition of the very long struggle of these iwi to arrive at this place today\u2014a struggle for redress; we are talking of over a century of effort and work by many people\u2014and their acknowledgment of those who have passed away. One hopes that the events of today will help those who have passed to rest more peacefully, and give hope and opportunity to the current leadership and people of these two iwi to reclaim their own future, to restore the well-being of their people and, indeed, of the land that sustains them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think it is worth noting, as ever, the history of these claims. They are important historical documents, the bills that will become the Acts of settlement, because they do record the histories. It is interesting that both of these iwi endeavoured to stay aloof from other people\u2019s wars. They endeavoured to simply get on with their own lives in the 1840s and 1850s, but unfortunately, as we know of course, the events of the 1860s overtook them. These iwi were obliged to entangle themselves in other people\u2019s disputes, to take sides, and it was at considerable cost. It was the beginning of a long history of degradation of their land, of their social well-being, of their lives indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe know that what little was left to these iwi, at the conclusion of the shooting war, continued to be whittled away over time by the machinations of the Native Land Court and the Crown of the day. The actions of the Crown were neither honest nor honourable, and it is a privilege and a pleasure to us all, I am sure, to endeavour to restore, to give back a little of what was taken, today, albeit after a very, very long time has elapsed. I think recognising the very poor treatment of the Crown in the past simply reminds us of the responsibility all of us parliamentarians have to ensure that all people are treated fairly and decently and in an honourable way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThese settlement bills for Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare also highlight the importance of rivers, the lifeblood of the land and of the people who depend on that land, critical to the identification of us as M\u0101ori through our whakapapa, and increasingly important to non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders who have considerable physical and spiritual attachments to the riverways, to the waterways, in this country. It is clear that our rivers have not been well managed. They have not been protected. They have been degraded, as have been the catchments that feed them. It is a very positive thing that these bills restore the status of kaitiaki to the people who know the rivers best, who have got the longest history of caring for them, of managing them, and it is a good thing that there is more opportunity now for the kaitiaki to exercise a degree of power, a degree of authority, in the restoration and the well-being of those rivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI note the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee report did express some regret that the level of control, of authority if you like, is perhaps not consistent with that which has been allowed in other bills, notably the Waikato river settlement, which some of us hoped might set the standard, and might set the baseline. But nevertheless there is a considerable step forward, and I am sure that the commitment and the determination of the people who have these rights restored to them will ensure that these rivers do thrive, do improve, and to the benefit of us all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe select committee also noted that there was some nervousness among consent holders\u2014people who have resource consents that are relative to the waters and to the riverways\u2014and that they were concerned that giving iwi and hap\u016B a degree of control might threaten their resource consent renewals. I say to them that if those people act honourably, if they act in ways that respect and acknowledge the importance of those rivers, and if they are respectful of the conditions that apply to their current consents, then they will give iwi and hap\u016B no reason to not restore or to not renew their consents in time. It is in the hands of those people holding those consents to ensure that the future of those consents is assured. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think I will leave my comments there, simply, again, to acknowledge the very, very long struggle of Ng\u0101ti Whare and Ng\u0101ti Manawa, to offer the respects of the Green Party to them, and to wish them all the best going into the future. May they thrive as they deserve to. Kia ora koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u00229f28c8fb4b2c44bbbae7a52c23fcd789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f28c8fb4b2c44bbbae7a52c23fcd789\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support this settlement legislation: the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill and the Ng\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill. Today is a landmark day in history, because, for the first time, here in our lion\u2019s den that we call Parliament, settlements reach their third readings in the bright light of day for all to easily comprehend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EToday we will hear many of the reasons for the settlement of the historical grievances. We will hear of heartbreaking stories, and we will gain a greater understanding of why many M\u0101ori have been previously disadvantaged in education and commerce\u2014some things as simple as not being able to leverage equity off farm land, because the Crown insisted to M\u0101ori farmers that their land be amalgamated, and the consequences that brought. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EWe will learn of the special connection we have to our streams, our rivers, our lakes, and our land, and of the synergy of life, history, and love that binds us. New Zealand First is proud to be here to enjoy this convergence, this memorandum of understanding, in what will be an enlightenment for many people and will bring us closer together as New Zealanders\u2014one nation moving into tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E Before I turn to the contents of this piece of legislation let me acknowledge the representatives of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. Though they be modest in number, it is obvious that their tenacity and their ambition are prodigious. These tribes have witnessed some of the most extraordinary chapters of our colonial history. I need not recite at length the twist of that history; suffice to say, they experienced both the kinder face of the Crown and the scorched earth policies of the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EIt is important that we note the recitation of these colonial events in this proposed legislation. This reminds us that Treaty settlements are about history coming to collect its debts. We, the M\u0101ori members of this House, realise that the full weight of that debt can never be met by current taxpayers. This settlement, along with others today, is an attempt to restore honour to the Crown and to salve the wounds inflicted upon Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare by constant Crown ill-treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EGoodwill is what must underlie our settlements. Who knows what the future holds for tribes such as Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare? The leaders and their followers must chart this course. We parliamentarians must do our duty by passing the legislation and undertaking a responsibility to be vigilant in the future, to ensure that race relations enjoy a better trajectory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EMy Maniapoto cousin Nanaia Mahuta covered most aspects of Ng\u0101ti Whare, but I would like to add to those sentiments, acknowledging on behalf of Ng\u0101ti Whare all the trustees\u2014both past and present. I would also like to acknowledge the historian John Hutton and the lawyer Jamie Ferguson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E The term \u201Cmanawa\u201D means heart, such as in the famous M\u0101ori expression \u201Ckia manawanui\u201D, meaning \u201Cbe stout-hearted\u201D. Ng\u0101ti Manawa tell us they derive their name from their tupuna Manawat\u016B Manawaoho Manawarere Manawakotokoto. So much of what we do in the M\u0101ori world is as much about heart and spirit as it is about logic. A key feature of this particular settlement given the location of the tribe and its larger neighbours shows that these people have heart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EAs we have seen in earlier settlements such as the M\u0101ori fisheries one, the challenge is to take capital assets and the institution, and transform such a legacy into a viable long-term source of wealth and income. We hear so much as to who will benefit from such efforts, and our party, New Zealand First, believes that the benefits must improve the lives of the many, not a chosen few. We all know that there is a hierarchy within M\u0101oridom, and people are often placed in positions without the full benefit of a lifetime\u2019s preparation. This means advice, fiscal prudence, wisdom, and transparency are essential. There is an opportunity for all iwi to deepen the skill base and broaden the networks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EIn the past, the focus was always on guarding your territory with a large patu. This is our history, but we need to retain such cultural strength and marry it off to a new force that ensures our resources endure and earn income either domestically or globally. To do this we will need to move beyond the shadows of our own mountains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is solidly behind the development of an export economy. It is important that all iwi in a post-settlement phase have the chance and show the drive to maintain heritage whilst moving beyond the horizon. This is not new\u2014after all, where did the waka come from? This spirit will be sorely needed as we move the settlements into a new phase. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcc566c1588a4dd4916ce79c86511e2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcc566c1588a4dd4916ce79c86511e2a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the third readings of the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill and the Ng\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill. I want to acknowledge the leadership and the tenacity of the negotiators and the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare in what has been a long process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAs other members have done, I acknowledge those who have passed on. Treaty settlement legislation is not really done in 5 years; it is done over generations. It is done through the sweat and blood of many, many people who have fought long and hard so that we could be standing here in this House today passing this historic legislation. As others have done, I specifically want to pay tribute to Bill Bird and the hard work that he put into ensuring that we are here today celebrating the third readings of this legislation. I want to acknowledge the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations and the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, from both this Government and the previous Government, who carried out the negotiations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ETreaty settlement legislation really does go to the heart of our nationhood. It is always extremely satisfying to be able to reach the end of a process, and, in fact, the beginning of a new stage of a more mature relationship between the Crown and between the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. I want to recognise the generosity of those people in agreeing to the terms of these settlements. One of our former colleagues, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, said the generosity in these matters always lies with the iwi not with the Crown, and I want to recognise the generosity of the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare in coming to an agreement today so that this legislation can be passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is appropriate that the claims of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare are brought alongside each other in this legislation. As my colleague Parekura Horomia has said, Labour has supported this legislation since 2004, and, again, I want to acknowledge the generosity of the iwi in agreeing to put aside the negotiations on their Treaty settlement so that the central North Island deal could be done in 2008. It is not a small thing for an iwi to put aside those negotiations, and it is very important that it be recognised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe claims in relation to Ng\u0101ti Manawa are primarily around the events of the New Zealand Wars. What is striking is how little New Zealanders in general know about the events of the New Zealand Wars, and yet what an incredibly dramatic impact they had on the shaping of our nation in terms of the Crown\u2019s actions and omissions in respect of the operation and the impact of native land laws. Again, this is not something that most New Zealanders know anything about, and that is something that needs to be rectified, because it is something that has shaped our nation, and it is something that I believe needs to be more firmly acknowledged across Aotearoa New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe legislation also addresses the actions in respect of the Crown\u2019s land purchasing techniques of land that Ng\u0101ti Manawa wished to retain and the grievances that come with that, and also the 20th century development of land, rivers, and forests. I will come back to that later, but I think that a very, very unique and special part of this particular Treaty settlement is the focus on conservation\u2014both on land and on rivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to Ng\u0101ti Whare, the settlement relates primarily to the Crown\u2019s actions, again during the 1860s wars; the impact of the Native Land Court and the subsequent land alienation; the Urewera District Native Reserve Act; Crown corporatisation; the cessation of indigenous forest logging; and the return of Minginui Village. Minginui Village was built by the State Forest Service in 1948 to support native milling and exotic replanting programmes, but when it was returned, it was not returned with the sufficient resources to ensure that it was able to be maintained at an adequate standard, and these are things that are being redressed in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOthers have touched on the atrocities and devastating history of the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. Hopefully, although this legislation can never fully right those wrongs, it can start the process of healing. It is an important step in acknowledging the deep, deep regret of the Crown for the atrocities committed, for the loss of life, and for the harm inflicted on the people of Ng\u0101ti Whare relating to the 1869 attack on Te H\u0101rima P\u0101. It also acknowledges the prejudicial effect on Ng\u0101ti Manawa of the several wars fought between the Crown and M\u0101ori in the Eastern Bay of Plenty from 1865. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis is truly comprehensive, practical, and groundbreaking Treaty legislation, and I want to particularly congratulate all those who were involved in the negotiations on the strong, practical emphasis around protection and regeneration of conservation sites. What this means is that future generations of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare\u2014and, in fact, future generations of all New Zealanders\u2014are going to benefit from what is certainly natural taonga. We thank you for taking such a practical approach to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI particularly want to congratulate the iwi on the creation of the Rangitaiki River Forum. Certainly in the Eastern Bay of Plenty, the Rangitaiki and its tributaries are synonymous with the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. I have spent a lot of time travelling up and down the Rangitaiki River, observing the damage that has been caused particularly by the damming of that river. It is not something that you can see from the road; it is not something that a lot of people are aware of. This is a truly spectacular river\u2014a truly spectacular river. As you travel up it, you notice the forests of petrified trees, but what you particularly notice is the erosion, the damage, the significant dropping in the level of the river when the dams on the river are at full bore, the impact that that is having on the ecology of the river, and the impact that that is having on the vegetation around the river. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt was of great concern to, I think, all people of the Eastern Bay of Plenty when TrustPower sought to actually increase its water take on the Rangitaiki River\u2014to double it\u2014and we can imagine what damage that may have caused. Although that did not go through, it did show, as my colleague Nanaia Mahuta said, the importance of having a forum where iwi are not subject to the waxing and waning of elected representatives and to what their personal views might be on some of these issues, but where some firm bottom lines can be put in place about the protection of the ecology of the Rangitaiki River and the health of that river, because that river is in serious trouble. I congratulate you on so staunchly wanting to protect the Rangitaiki River and its tributaries, and I hope that we can see some improvement in the health of that particular river. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAgain, touching on the comments from my colleague Nanaia Mahuta around the relationship with the regional council and the relationship with the management of those natural resources, we note that there are some significant local government reforms coming along soon. We wonder what that might mean for the Bay of Plenty as a whole, particularly as it has a regional authority that has elected M\u0101ori seats\u2014which are working very, very well\u2014and what any kind of amalgamation might mean for the future of those M\u0101ori seats is, I think, incredibly important. Although that is not a debate for today, it is important to put that on the table, because that definitely will have an impact on how the regional council manages some of those resources and will have an impact on the ability of iwi to have a say in that. Again, that is why this forum is so, so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E So I am not going to take much longer, but I want to acknowledge the history in relation to the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. Again I find it very sad that most people in the Eastern Bay of Plenty do not know the history of the iwi in their own area. You cannot have a full appreciation of the significance of these settlements when you do not know what led up to them, you do not know the atrocities that occurred, and you do not understand why that redress needs to happen. We need to do better in this regard. That is, again, another debate for another day, but it is important to put it on the table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo no Treaty settlement can ever fully right historic wrongs but it does provide a basis for moving forward, and it does provide the basis for a more mature relationship with the Crown. I congratulate the people of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. I wish you all the best for the future. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u002290bde725162042b79d5c79ec18a3bff2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290bde725162042b79d5c79ec18a3bff2\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. E aku rangatira o Ng\u0101ti Manawa me Ng\u0101ti Whare, r\u0101tou katoa kua tae mai nei i raro i te tuanui o t\u0113nei o \u014D t\u0101tou Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. My chiefs of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare, all of them who have arrived here beneath the roof of this our House, salutations, acknowledgments, and greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI rise in support of my Labour colleagues on this momentous day to celebrate the third reading of this settlement legislation for Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare, the Ng\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill and the Ng\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill. Indeed, I do join with all of our colleagues in our House today. This is a momentous day, and it actually hearkens back to my own memories of being in this House coming up to 13 years ago this year when I was sitting up there in the gallery for the passage of the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement. There was a huge representation from my own whanaunga from down south on that day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThis is a very momentous day, and I would like to just acknowledge all of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare representatives who have come here today. I acknowledge all of the kaum\u0101tua, all of the leaders, and all of the people who have been involved in the settlement process as the legislation has moved through the various stages. It has been a long and arduous journey, so I salute you and mihi to you all for the hard work and perseverance in working to get the legislation to this stage. I would also like to mihi to Minister Finlayson and all of the Crown officials who have been involved with the settlements. Again, it is a very long process, but it is particularly gratifying to know that we have come to this third reading stage and that this is the big day, so I would just like to mihi once again to Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EIn reflecting on 13 years of Ng\u0101i Tahu post settlement, these settlements actually mark a significant turning point for all iwi. These settlements are a waka; they are a vehicle that can now take Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare into the future. I agree with my colleague the Hon Nanaia Mahuta that these settlements are more than just words on paper. They are more than just cheques being written out. They are not about money; they are really about restoring the permanence of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare to their ancestral landscape, and they are about the Crown giving proper acknowledgment for the breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi and its principles. Those are the real important aspects for these settlements. It is the acknowledgment and the apologies from the Crown, and it is also all of the other cultural redress elements and the recording of the history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EJust going through the aspects of the settlements, it is those things like the deeds of recognition, acknowledging the special association to the landscapes, the place name changes, the river redress, and the joint sites that have now been vested back in Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. I acknowledge the whanaungatanga of being able to work together right through the passage of this legislation, because it was a unique feature that we put the bills together in a conjoined arrangement, and that marks a first. All of those different elements to the legislation and to the settlements are the real important elements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI would just like to reiterate that the vast majority of these settlements are not about commercial or monetary recompense; they are really about the history, having acknowledgment of that, and having the apologies recorded and enshrined in legislation for ever. Your history and the Crown\u2019s acknowledgment are enshrined in this legislation, and that can be taught\u2014and should be taught\u2014to not only all of ng\u0101 uri whakatupu but also the whole of our country. It is important that we all learn and understand the history of all our iwi across the motu and all the grievances, but we also now have that recorded, and now we can mark a future on the passage of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThere is a new space opening up for Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare with the passage of these bills. The amazing thing about it is that the future is entirely up to Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. They are no longer looking back in grievance mode. The future is now for them to chart their own course, in their own right, on their own mana, and for their own people\u2014from now and into the future\u2014once this settlement legislation has been passed. So I mihi to Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. It is a momentous day, as I have been saying throughout my speech, but it also opens up this new waka for you to move into the future. I look forward to seeing Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare prosper and progress into the future, connected and rooted to their landscape, to their whenua, to their awa, and right across all of their hap\u016B for all of their people. Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002244efd3da7b6a48d0a26b48482511adc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244efd3da7b6a48d0a26b48482511adc6\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (Leader\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Hoi an\u014D, me mihi atu ki a koutou e Ng\u0101ti Manawa, e Ng\u0101ti Whare kua tau mai i te r\u0101 nei. Ruia, ruia, opea, opea, miria, miria, tahia, tahia. Kia hemo ake te k\u0101koakoa, kia herea mai te kawau korok\u012B t\u0101taki mai i roto mai i tanuku karokaro, whaikoro. He k\u016Baka m\u0101rangaranga, he kotahi te manu i tau atu ki te t\u0101huna, tau atu, tau atu! Ko koutou \u0113n\u0101 kua tau mai i te r\u0101 nei, n\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHoi an\u014D ko te ngako o t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero, n\u0101 taku t\u016Bpua a T\u016Bmatahina, koia, m\u0113n\u0101 e tika ana te h\u012Bkoi tuatahi a te toa, ka taea te iwi katoa te whai atu i t\u014Dna oranga. N\u014D reira, ko koutou w\u0113n\u0101 kua tae mai i te r\u0101 nei, i te tepe tuatahi i t\u0113nei h\u012Bkoi roa. Hara i te mutunga. Hara i te mutunga. Engari ko te t\u012Bmatanga kia tae ora atu w\u0101 t\u0101tau tamariki mokopuna \u0101 ng\u0101 r\u0101 kei te haere mai. I te mea m\u0113n\u0101 horekau he hua m\u014D r\u0101tau, moumou t\u0101ima w\u0101 t\u0101tau mahi i t\u0113nei r\u0101. N\u014D reira, me mihi atu ki a koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHara i te mea kia t\u016B roa engari, te mihi atu ki a koutou kua tae mai i te r\u0101 nei. Me te mea an\u014D hoki e tika ana kia m\u014Dhio ai koutou, hakoa ng\u0101 piki, ng\u0101 heke, ng\u0101 raruraru roto i a m\u0101tau ng\u0101 mema M\u0101ori o te P\u0101remata nei, i runga i ng\u0101 kaupapa p\u0113nei, e t\u016B kotahi ana m\u0101tau. N\u014D reira, me mihi atu ki t\u014D t\u0101tau Minita a Pita me t\u0101tau katoa e nohonoho nei roto i te Whare, hei tautoko kotahi i te kaupapa kia t\u012Bmatangia ai te oranga o ng\u0101 tamariki, o ng\u0101 mokopuna o Ng\u0101ti Manawa, o Ng\u0101ti Whare. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tau katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Thank you. I need to acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare, who arrived here today. Scatter, scatter, sweep on, sweep on. Let us not be plundered by our foe. The rope has been stretched out and fastened; let us rejoice. Moving along the rope, the godwits have risen and flown. One has landed on the beach; the others follow! That is you who have come here today, and so I greet you all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe moral of that chant from my ancestor T\u016Bmatahina is that if the first journey of the champion is just, then all of the people will follow in his successful example. And so you have arrived today at the first step of this long journey. It is not the end. It is not the end. It is merely the beginning so that our children and grandchildren can thrive in the future. If it does not benefit them, we are wasting our time today. So I must congratulate you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI will not speak for long, but I wish to salute you for coming. You should know that despite the various problems amongst the M\u0101ori members of Parliament, we are united on issues like this. I must congratulate our Minister Pita Sharples, along with everyone sitting here in the House all supporting this bill for the betterment of the children and grandchildren of Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare. So well done, congratulations, and salutations to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI better not take this call; this is for Mike Smith. It will be about a march to Wellington, so I better not talk about it here. But just to say, I got a note from my son-in-law the other day to let me know that my mokopuna was going to be performing at Moerewa. She is only 6. I could not make it, so I sent back a note saying: \u201CIf I don\u2019t make it, tell her that I said that she was wonderful and the best one on the stage.\u201D He sent me back a note to say: \u201CI think she already knows that.\u201D E tika ana kia m\u014Dhio ai t\u0101tau n\u0101 r\u0101tau t\u0113nei kaupapa. N\u0101 r\u0101tau t\u0113nei. N\u014D reira, hari ana kua tae mai koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[It is appropriate that we understand that this matter belongs to them. This is theirs. So I am pleased that you have arrived.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAlso, I probably will never get the chance to say so to you all again, so thank you for always being nice to me when I come down there. When I was with the M\u0101ori Party, you were always nice to me. You are still nice to me now that I am with Mana. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022be21cfb92c4f42d382a2f03beadf9e6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be21cfb92c4f42d382a2f03beadf9e6f\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tau katoa ng\u0101 mema o te Whare P\u0101remata. Ki ng\u0101 uri o Wharep\u0101kau r\u0101ua ko Tangiharuru, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Ko t\u0101ku, ko te tautoko i ng\u0101 mihi ki a koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHei t\u012Bmatanga k\u014Drero m\u0101ku, ka hoki ng\u0101 mahara ki te \u0101huatanga o te Wiri P\u0101ti. Ko tana k\u014Drero i runga i te marae, \u0101, i te w\u0101 i t\u016B a ia ki te k\u014Drero, \u201CHe iwi rerek\u0113 a Ng\u0101ti Manawa.\u201D \u0100, ko t\u0101 r\u0101tau, m\u0113n\u0101 ka h\u0113 mai i roto i a Te Arawa ka huri atu ki a M\u0101taatua. Ka h\u0113 mai i roto o M\u0101taatua kua hoki an\u014D r\u0101 ki a Te Arawa. Koin\u0101 tana k\u014Drero ki a au. N\u014D reira, kei te harikoa kua whai te Whare P\u0101remata i ng\u0101 tikanga o Te Arawa i te r\u0101 nei, m\u0101 te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e w\u0101w\u0101hi, m\u0101 te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e whakak\u014Dpani. Ko t\u0101ku noa ake, ko te whaiwhai haere i \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kua k\u014Drerohia. E hoa m\u0101, kei ng\u0101 pakeke o te k\u0101inga, haere mai. Haere mai, haere mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EK\u0101re au i te tino hiahia ki te whakatuarua, tuatoru r\u0101nei i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero. Kua oti k\u0113 i a r\u0101tau te whakatakoto i te nuinga o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero. \u0112ngari, ko t\u0101ku ko te tango mai i \u0113tahi k\u014Drero hei whakatakoto, hei t\u0101piritanga ki t\u0101 r\u0101tau i whakatakoto nei ki roto i te Whare P\u0101remata. Tuatahi, he huarahi h\u014Du t\u0113nei e whaiwhai haeretia nei e te Whare P\u0101remata kia whakakaohia katoatia ng\u0101 pire i te r\u0101 nei. R\u0101 kotahi, tokorima ng\u0101 iwi ka haramai ki roto i ng\u0101 pakitara o te Whare i te r\u0101 nei. Ko koutou Ng\u0101ti Whare, Ng\u0101ti Manawa te hunga tuatahi, \u0101, ka mutu ka whai mai ko P\u0101hauwera, ko Ng\u0101ti Porou, ko Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. N\u014D reira me mihi r\u0101 ki te Minita n\u0101na tonu t\u0113nei kaupapa i whakarite. He aha ai? He hiahia n\u014Dna kia tere oti pai ng\u0101 take. N\u0101 runga i te whakatau o te N\u0101hinara, ka mutu ng\u0101 ker\u0113me katoa \u0101 ng\u0101 tau tata kei mua i te aroaro, ka mutu, he m\u014Dhio tonu n\u014Dna, he hiahia n\u014D te iwi kia tere whakatau i ng\u0101 ker\u0113me kia kore e noho t\u0101rewa tonu m\u014D ake nei. N\u014D reira, me mihi r\u0101 ki a t\u0101tau, me mihi r\u0101 ki a ia m\u014D te \u0101huatanga o t\u0113nei whakaaro ahakoa k\u0101re i te whakarongo ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero. \u0100, waiho t\u0113r\u0101 ki reira. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u0100, kai te m\u014Dhio tonu t\u0101tau, he rori t\u0101pokopoko, he ara t\u0101pokopoko te huarahi i whaiwhai haeretia nei e ng\u0101 m\u0101tua, \u0101, kia tat\u016B pai mai ai ki t\u0113nei rangi. I kite atu i roto i te h\u014Dt\u0113r\u0101 inap\u014D nei i a au i waenganui i a koutou Ng\u0101ti Manawa i ng\u0101 whakaahua o te hunga n\u0101 r\u0101tau t\u0113nei huarahi i para. Me te tangi o te ng\u0101kau i te mea ko r\u0101tau kua huri. Kua huri, an\u0101, kua waiho ake m\u0101 koutou t\u0113nei whakatipuranga e whakatinana. Koinei te tangi o te ng\u0101kau. Kua k\u014Drerohia ko te \u0101huatanga o te k\u014Drero ki a Wiri P\u0101ti, ki a Waiparer\u0101, Mandy haramai, haere mai. N\u0101 t\u014D rangatira t\u0113nei take i k\u014Dkiri, piki, heke. N\u0101 t\u014D rangatira tonu i kawe i te w\u0101 o te kino, i te w\u0101 o te pai. Ko \u0113tahi ka p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113 m\u0101m\u0101 noa iho te whakakotahitanga o ng\u0101 iwi. Ko t\u0101ku e k\u012B nei e k\u0101o. E k\u0101o. I \u0113tahi w\u0101 ka noho tukituki ng\u0101 m\u0101hunga o te tuakana me te taina, o te tuahine me te tung\u0101ne, o te m\u0101m\u0101 me te p\u0101p\u0101, \u0101, o ng\u0101 tamariki, me ng\u0101 koroua me ng\u0101 kuia. Ki taku m\u014Dhio i p\u0113r\u0101 rawa te \u0101huatanga ki a koutou kei aku rangatira. Ko \u0113tahi kai te hiahia \u0101, t\u012Bkina! T\u012Bkina! Te w\u0101, an\u0101, kei mua i te aroaro, ko \u0113tahi ka k\u012B, \u0113 taihoa. Taihoa, he r\u0101 an\u014D \u0101pop\u014D. N\u014D reira, k\u0101ti, ko t\u0101ku he mihi ki a koutou e para nei i t\u0113nei huarahi me te m\u014Dhio an\u014D hoki, he ara t\u0101pokopoko, he ara uaua, \u0101, kia taea ai e \u0113tahi te k\u012B, kia kore e taka, kia t\u014Dtara w\u0101hi rua te noho \u0113ngari, i te r\u0101 nei kua whakakotahi mai. Pai mai, kino mai kua eke, kua eke panuku kua eke tangaroa te kaupapa i te r\u0101 nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u0100, k\u0101ti, ko t\u0101 te Wiri P\u0101ti k\u014Drero, riro whenua atu, hoki whenua mai. Koin\u0101 tana k\u014Drero. Me te m\u014Dhio an\u014D hoki kai te whaiwhai haere an\u014D hoki a Ng\u0101ti Whare i t\u0113r\u0101 momo tauira. I riro whenua atu, hoki whenua mai. Anei au e p\u0101tai i te p\u0101tai\u2014a t\u0113n\u0101 m\u0113n\u0101 koir\u0101 te whakatinanatanga o te k\u014Drero, he aha te take, an\u0101, i t\u012Bkina atu e te Wiri P\u0101ti i te huarahi ki te CNI, \u0101, ka mutu, ka waiho ake kia t\u0101rewa tonu te take o te whenua, \u0101, m\u014D ake nei. M\u014D te w\u0101, m\u014D te w\u0101. T\u0113r\u0101 pea he hiahia n\u014Dna kia tau ng\u0101 take o te iwi, i te tuatahi \u0101-moni nei, kia tae atu \u0113tahi paku hereni ki roto i te p\u016Bkoro, hei t\u012Bmatanga k\u014Drero, \u0101, waiho ake te whenua. Kei te pai te whenua ka hoki mai ki te whenua. \u0112ngari, ko t\u0101ku e k\u012B nei, \u0101, kai reira tonu \u0113tahi raruraru me whakatakoto ki mua i te aroaro o te Whare P\u0101remata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI t\u012Bkina atu e te Wiri P\u0101ti, te p\u016Btea i te tuatahi ki te taha ki a Ng\u0101ti Manawa, hei oranga m\u014D te iwi m\u014D t\u0113nei w\u0101. Taihoa ake nei kua hoki an\u014D ia ki te tiki i te whenua. Ahakoa kua ea te \u0101huatanga o te moni i t\u0113nei r\u0101 me \u0113tahi k\u014Drero kua k\u014Drerohia, kei reira tonu te take o te whenua e noho t\u0101rewa ana. N\u0101, ko t\u0101ku e p\u0101tai nei i te p\u0101tai. \u0100e r\u0101nei kei te m\u014Dhio a Ng\u0101ti Manawa ki t\u014Dna rohe p\u014Dtae k\u0101re r\u0101nei. Ki taku m\u014Dhio \u0101e. \u0100e r\u0101nei k\u0101re r\u0101nei kei te m\u014Dhio a Ng\u0101ti Whare ki t\u014Dna ake rohe p\u014Dtae, k\u0101re r\u0101nei. Ko t\u0101ku e k\u012B nei, \u0101e. Ka p\u0101tai te p\u0101tai, \u0101 t\u0113n\u0101, he aha te raruraru o t\u0113nei mea o te mana whenua e hiahiatia nei, e w\u0101nangatia nei e \u0113tahi? Ko ng\u0101 whenua o Ng\u0101ti Manawa kei te m\u014Dhio tonutia. Ko ng\u0101 whenua o Ng\u0101ti Whare kei te m\u014Dhio tonutia. \u0112ngari, he aha te take kua noho taupatupatu \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D ng\u0101 ng\u0101here. K\u0101re au i te tino m\u0101rama ki te tikanga o t\u0113r\u0101. N\u014D reira k\u0101ti te tikanga ia, \u0101, ka tere tau t\u0113r\u0101 take, kia m\u014Dhio mai ai te motu, \u0101, ko te whenua o roto o Ng\u0101ti Manawa, ko te whenua o roto o Ng\u0101ti Whare, kua roa t\u0113r\u0101 take e k\u014Drerohia ana, e w\u0101nangahia ana. Kua m\u014Dhio te motu, \u0101, anei te rohe p\u014Dtae o Ng\u0101ti Whare o Ng\u0101ti Manawa. K\u0101re i k\u014D atu k\u0101re i k\u014D mai. Te t\u016Bmanako ia ka rongo ake ng\u0101 taringa o \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 iwi ki t\u0113r\u0101 momo k\u014Drero. I te mea, ki te kore, ka noho taupatupatu, \u0101, te mutunga mai ko te kooti. Ka waiho ake m\u0101 te tiati P\u0101keh\u0101 e whakariterite i ng\u0101 whakataunga, te tikanga, ka noho ki waenganui i te iwi tonu. \u0100 t\u0113r\u0101 t\u0113r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u0100, inap\u014D nei, i k\u014Drero mai t\u0113tahi o te iwi o Ng\u0101ti Manawa ki t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 \u0101piha o te Karauna, \u0113, kai te tere haere ng\u0101 ker\u0113me n\u0113? Ka k\u012B mai te wahine nei, e k\u0101o, he nui ng\u0101 ker\u0113me kai mua i te aroaro. Ko tana k\u014Drero, a t\u0113n\u0101, m\u0113n\u0101 ka whakahoki koe i ng\u0101 rawa katoa ki te M\u0101ori, kua tere mutu? Ka tatari ake au ki te k\u014Drero a te \u0101piha, k\u0101re au i rongo i te whakautu. Me noho wahang\u016B n\u0101 runga i te \u0101huatanga o tana k\u014Drero m\u014D te Karauna. \u0112ngari e tika ana t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u0100, koinei au e k\u012B nei, m\u0113n\u0101 ka k\u012B mai \u0113tahi, Ng\u0101ti Whare ki a koutou, Ng\u0101ti Manawa ki a koutou, koinei te mutunga mai ko t\u0101ku ki a koutou, k\u0101o. K\u0101o. Tonoa ng\u0101 tamariki kia hoki mai. K\u0101re an\u014D kia oti noa. He kongakonga kei runga i te t\u0113pu kua whakahokia ki a koe. Ar\u0101 ano te nuinga o ng\u0101 rawa te tikanga kua hoki mai ki a koutou. Ko t\u0101ku e k\u012B nei, tonoa w\u0101 koutou tamariki, mokopuna ki te Whare P\u0101remata \u0101 te w\u0101. Kaua e p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113 koinei te mutunga mai. \u0112, he pai m\u014D n\u0101ianei, he pai m\u014D n\u0101ianei \u0113ngari, \u0101 ng\u0101 tau kei mua i te aroaro, k\u012B atu ki ng\u0101 mokopuna, hoki mai. T\u012Bkina ng\u0101 rawa. Kei te p\u0113nei tonu taku k\u014Drero i te mea, te k\u014Drero a te tangata inap\u014D nei, h\u0101, he aha i tere ai te K\u0101wanatanga ki te tuku i te koha nui ki te South Canterbury Finance \u0113ngari, m\u0101tau te M\u0101ori, e hia k\u0113 nei ng\u0101 tau e tatari ana. Toru marama, \u0101, ka whakatau te K\u0101wanatanga, tukuna te miriona t\u0101ra ki te South Canterbury Finance. N\u014D reira koinei au e k\u012B nei, whakahokia ng\u0101 tamariki. Tonoa ng\u0101 tamariki kia hoki mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u0100, k\u0101ti, kupu whakamutunga kei wareware i a au. T\u0113tahi take nui e p\u0101 ana ki te maunga o T\u0101whiuau. Kua puta te k\u014Drero a te Minita, kai roto a Tawhiuau i te pire nei, \u0101e, ka tae atu ki ng\u0101 ringaringa o Ng\u0101ti Manawa, \u0101, ka mutu he w\u0101 poto nei ka whakahokia ki te Karauna. Me te m\u014Dhio an\u014D hoki, ko te k\u014Drero a Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe whakahokia Te Urewera ki a Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe. K\u0101re au i te whakah\u0113 i t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero, kai te pai. M\u0101 Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe t\u0113r\u0101 e k\u014Dkiri \u0113ngari, ko te whakat\u016Bpato k\u0113, kei roto a T\u0101whiuau i te National Park o Te Urewera. N\u014D reira, kei reira t\u0113tahi raru. N\u014D reira, he \u012Bnoi noa atu ki te Minita, kia \u0101ta tiaki pai i te \u0101huatanga ki a T\u0101whiuau. Ko te k\u014Drero kua puta i te Minita, ko T\u0101whiuau te maunga, T\u0101whiuau, ko Ng\u0101ti Manawa k\u0101re i k\u014D atu k\u0101re i k\u014D mai. N\u014D reira, waiho t\u0113r\u0101 take ki runga i te t\u0113pu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EK\u0101ti, kua rahi m\u0101ku \u0113ngari, ka mihi ki ng\u0101 ringaringa, ki ng\u0101 waewae o te Karauna n\u0101 r\u0101tau i k\u014Dkiri i ng\u0101 take nei. K\u0101re an\u014D \u0113nei kia k\u014Drero m\u014D r\u0101tau. Ka mihi ki a koutou katoa. Ka mutu, ki a koutou ng\u0101 tamariki, ng\u0101 mokopuna o Ng\u0101ti Whare, Ng\u0101ti Manawa, nau mai ki te Whare P\u0101remata. Kua tutuki, kua tutuki, kua eke, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Mr Speaker, and to all of the members of Parliament. I wish to welcome the descendants of Wharep\u0101kau and Tangiharuru. I support the acknowledgments expressed to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ETo begin my speech, I recall the nature of Bill Bird. This pertains to something he said on the marae as he was delivering a formal speech: \u201CNg\u0101ti Manawa is a unique tribe.\u201D For them, if anything goes wrong in Te Arawa, they turn to M\u0101taatua. If anything goes wrong in M\u0101taatua, they turn to Te Arawa. That is what he told me. And so I am delighted that Parliament has followed the protocols of Te Arawa today, that the M\u0101ori Party commences and concludes this occasion. I want to endorse the sentiments of my colleagues. I welcome the elders from home. Welcome, welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI do not really want to repeat what has already been said; they have already presented most of the information. However, I wish to provide additional information in Parliament. Firstly, a new pathway is being followed in Parliament whereby the bills are brought together on this day. On a single day, five tribes have arrived within the walls of the House. Ng\u0101ti Whare and Ng\u0101ti Manawa, you are the first group, followed by Ng\u0101ti P\u0101hauwera, Ngati Porou, and Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. Therefore, I congratulate the Minister in charge of this initiative. Why? Because he wants to swiftly address the Treaty issues. Due to the decision of National, all Treaty claims will be quickly settled within the coming years. The Minister knows that tribes also want to swiftly settle the claims. They will not remain up in the air for ever. And so I wish to congratulate everyone, and particularly the Minister, even though he is not listening to the speeches. I will leave it at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENow, we all know that our ancestors travelled a tough road to reach this day. Last night in a hotel while I was amongst you Ng\u0101ti Manawa I saw photos of those who paved the way. My heart wept because they have passed away. They have passed on, and this generation is left to complete their work. Hence my sadness. I have spoken of Bill Bird\u2019s Te Waiparer\u0101 nature, and I welcome Mandy\u2014welcome. Your husband advanced this matter through the ups and downs. Your husband advanced the cause through the good times and the bad. Some assume that it is easy to unite the tribes. I say no, it is not. No. Sometimes the older sibling clashes with the younger sibling. Or the sister and brother. Or the mother and father. Or the children and elders. I understand that that was the situation with you, my esteemed friends. Some want to grab it! Grab it! But when it comes to the time, they would say to take your time, there is another day tomorrow. And so I congratulate you for paving the way, knowing that it is a tough process to avoid dividing the people. But today you are united. Through the good and bad this bill has reached its completion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs Bill Bird said, land taken must be returned. That is what he said. And Ng\u0101ti Whare is following that example, that land taken must be returned. If that was the case, then why did Bill Bird choose the pathway of the CNI settlement to leave issues pertaining to the land for a time? Perhaps he wanted to settle the tribe\u2019s monetary issues to begin discussions and leave the land. The land is fine; it will return. But I am saying that there are problems that must be presented before Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBill Bird used the money given to Ng\u0101ti Manawa for the benefit of the tribe. In time he was to return to get the land. Although financial compensation has been addressed here today and discussions have taken place, issues pertaining to the land remain. I am just asking the question. Do Ng\u0101ti Manawa know their tribal boundaries? I know that they do. Do Ng\u0101ti Whare know their tribal boundaries? I say they do. So I ask what is wrong with the matter of the allocation of land interests in discussions and debates by some. The lands of Ng\u0101ti Manawa are known. The lands of Ng\u0101ti Whare are known. But why are there arguments in talks relating to the forests? I do not know why that is the case. That matter should be dealt with swiftly so that the nation will know that the lands within Ng\u0101ti Manawa and Ng\u0101ti Whare have been discussed over a long period of time. The nation will know the domains of Ng\u0101ti Whare and Ng\u0101ti Manawa. There is no doubt about it. Hopefully other tribes will hear that message. Because it has taken a long time, and if it does not happen, we end up in court, where a P\u0101keh\u0101 judge will make his determination. It should remain amongst the tribe, and that is that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ELast night a member of Ng\u0101ti Manawa asked an officer of the Crown whether the Treaty claims process is progressing quickly. And this woman replied that, no, several claims lie ahead. And the tribal member said that if you give the assets back to M\u0101ori, it will be quickly completed. I waited for the officer\u2019s response and did not hear it, because\u2014I should be quiet about that due to what the officer said about the Crown. But that statement is correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAnd so I say to Ng\u0101ti Whare and to Ng\u0101ti Manawa that this is not the end for you, no\u2014no. Send your children back here. It is not over. Crumbs on the table have been returned to you. Many assets should have been returned to you. I say to send your children and grandchildren back to Parliament in the future. Do not assume this is the end. It is good for now. But in the years ahead, tell the grandchildren to come back. Get the resources. I say this because this person said last night that the Government is quick to give large sums of money to South Canterbury Finance but M\u0101ori have spent many years waiting. In 3 months the Government decided to give millions of dollars to South Canterbury Finance. That is why I say to bring the children back. Send them back here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, before I forget, a major issue pertains to the mountain T\u0101whiuau. The Minister has said that, yes, in this bill it will be returned to Ng\u0101ti Manawa, and after a short time it will return to the Crown. We know that Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe want Te Urewera returned to Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe. I do not object to that. Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe will advance that. But the fear is that T\u0101whiuau is within Te Urewera National Park. And therein lies a problem. Therefore I appeal to the Minister to take good care when it comes to the situation pertaining to T\u0101whiuau. The message from the Minister is that T\u0101whiuau is the mountain of Ng\u0101ti Manawa. I leave that issue on the table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat is enough from me, but I wish to thank the Crown staff who advanced these issues. These people have not spoken about them. I salute you all. Finally, to you, the children and grandchildren of Ng\u0101ti Whare and Ng\u0101ti Manawa, welcome to Parliament House. It is done, it is finished, it has reached its conclusion, so congratulations, well done, and greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Manawa Claims Settlement Bill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Whare Claims Settlement Bill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b688c036f2394214bd6ef22a2f55583a\u0022\u003ENga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7450c5238b14ded894b982c65e6d685\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022c247a222b5d8415c8608ee00ebe74d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c247a222b5d8415c8608ee00ebe74d5f\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: I move, That the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill be now read a third time. \u0112ngari tuatahi, kei te mihi atu ki a koutou i hara mai nei i t\u0113nei rangi ki te kaupapa e whakahuitia ai t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Ahakoa te roa o te h\u012Bkoi kua mutu t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga, oti ai i t\u0113nei r\u0101ngi. \u0112ngari, ahakoa kua mutu, he t\u012Bmatanga an\u014D t\u0113n\u0101, kia kaha koutou ki te manaaki i t\u014D koutou awa. N\u0101 reir\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou i a koutou tini aitu\u0101, ng\u0101 mate kua p\u0101 ki a koutou, mai i te t\u012Bmatanga o t\u0113nei mahi, otir\u0101, tae noa ki t\u0113nei w\u0101. N\u0101 reira, kia okioki pai \u0101 t\u0101tou mate i roto i te Kaihanga. N\u0101 reira, ko te k\u014Drero, ko r\u0101tou ki a r\u0101tou, t\u0101tou ki a t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, nau mai, whakapiri mai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[But first I acknowledge you who came here today for the matter that brought us together; salutations to you collectively. Although the journey has been a long one, this part has been completed, at least, by today. Even though it is finished, that is also a beginning. You will need to work hard to look after your river. So congratulations. I acknowledge your many deaths\u2014those, in particular, at the beginning of this project, and, indeed, to the present moment. Our deaths, therefore, are resting well with the Creator. So the aphorism goes like this: they, the dead, to themselves, and we, the living, to ourselves, greetings to you, welcome, draw closer.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill formalises the eternal relationship of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto with the Waip\u0101 River. The Waip\u0101\u2019s journey from the headwaters in the Rangitoto Range into the heart of the Waikato River has been chronicled and cherished by generations. Ng\u0101 Wai o Maniapoto, the Waip\u0101, is born of the spring Pekepeke, at the foot of Rangitoto mountain. It flows on to Parakiri, where it meets \u014Ctamaroa Stream. Further through the Waip\u0101 Valley it is joined by the waters of \u014Ckurawhango and Tunawaea. It goes through the stones of Hapah\u0101pai o Tarap\u012Bkau, is released into the Waimahora Stream, and goes past Tangitehau, then on to \u014Ctewa. Past Parewaeono, it joins the Mangawhero and Mangap\u016B, and flows on to the rocks of M\u0101taiwhetu to join the Waitomo. It goes on past Kahotea and Te K\u014Dpua, where it unites with Moakurarua and journeys on to P\u016Brekireki, T\u0101whiao\u2019s ancient home. It merges at M\u0101takitaki, the place of battle, and surges forth to Te Rore, then further to Te Papa o Rotu at Whatawhata. The Waip\u0101 runs on to Te K\u014Dwhai, past the marae of Tangirau, uniting with the Waikato at Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Maniapoto say the essence of Waiwai\u0101 was instilled in the Waip\u0101 at the river\u2019s birthplace in the spring of Pekepeke. Describing the likeness as waiwai\u0101, the waters of the Waip\u0101 were described as astonishing beyond description. One attempt to describe Waiwai\u0101 talks of ripples of water reflecting in the sun and under the moonlight. Rainbows that appear in waterfalls was another attempt. But the most important part of Waiwai\u0101 was that it was the water itself, and without it man could not survive. Hence the whakatau\u0101k\u012B o Ng\u0101 Wai o Maniapoto: Ko te mauri, ko te wai ora o te Waip\u0101, ko Waiwai\u0101\u2014the essence and well-being of the Waip\u0101 is Waiwai\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWaiwai\u0101 is the personification of the waters of the Waip\u0101 River, and the enduring spiritual guardian of the peoples of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. This relationship is based on profound respect and gives rise to the responsibilities to protect te mana o te wai and to exercise kaitiakitanga in accordance with the long-established tikanga of Maniapoto. To Maniapoto, the Waip\u0101 is a taonga, a sacred river where the tohi rituals were performed, where the umbilical rites were observed, and where the purification rituals were undertaken. Under this bill, Maniapoto achieves co-management arrangements specific to the Waip\u0101 River and its catchment. The arrangements are extended to the headwaters of the Waip\u0101 River, at Pekepeke Spring in the Rangitoto Ranges. The overarching intent is to restore and maintain the quality and the integrity of the waters that flow into, and form part of, the Waip\u0101 River, for present and future generations, and the care and protection of the mana tuku iho of Waiwai\u0101. Waiwai\u0101 refers to the essence and well-being of the Waip\u0101 River.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill complements the Waikato River settlement with Waikato-Tainui, and the Waikato River co-management deeds with Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, Raukawa, and Te Arawa River Iwi. Together they establish a single, unified co-governance framework for both the Waip\u0101 River and the Waikato River. We are here today because of the deep obligation and desire of the Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto people to restore, maintain, and protect all of the waters that flow and fall within their tribal rohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis bill acknowledges that the relationship between Maniapoto and the Waip\u0101 River is historical, it is intellectual, it is physical, and it is spiritual. Historically, te mana o te wai was such that it provided all manner of sustenance to Maniapoto. This has included physical and spiritual nourishment, which has, over the generations, maintained the quality and the integrity of Maniapoto marae, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe Waip\u0101 River is a significant contributor to the waters of the Lower Waikato River, and will have a significant impact on arrangements to restore and protect the health and the well-being of the Waikato River. Maniapoto acknowledge that the restoration and maintenance of the Waip\u0101 River, as part of the larger catchment, needs to be coordinated with the management of the Waikato River. The foundations of this agreement therefore include references to the Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Act 2010. In history, Waikato and Maniapoto have shared a strong relationship through the Tainui waka. Today this is manifested through the support they each give to the K\u012Bngitanga. In a similar way, their sacred awa, Waikato and Waip\u0101, are inextricably linked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESimilar to Waikato-Tainui, the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill provides for Maniapoto to participate in the vision and strategy of the Waip\u0101 River, to be represented in the membership of the Waikato River Authority, and to participate in the making of an Upper Waip\u0101 River integrated management plan. The bill provides for Maniapoto to make an environmental plan called the Maniapoto Iwi Environmental Management Plan, and to enter a joint management agreement with the local authorities. The bill also provides for a process for extending the vision and strategy to the Upper Waip\u0101 River and the process for making and updating the Upper Waip\u0101 River integrated management plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFrom today, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto and the Crown are Treaty partners working together for the enhancement of the Waip\u0101 River and the restoration of Waiwai\u0101. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou kua tae mai. Ahakoa ng\u0101wari noa iho m\u014Dku te t\u016B nei ki te p\u0101nui \u0113nei k\u014Drero ki a koutou, kai te m\u014Dhio ki ng\u0101 mamae kai roto i a koutou mahi; r\u0101tou kua ngaro atu, r\u0101tou i tohetohe i waenganui i a koutou me \u0113r\u0101 atu iwi kia tae ki t\u0113nei w\u0101, n\u0101 reira, he mihi nui ki a koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou kua tae mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[So congratulations, you have arrived. Although it is easy for me to stand here and read these words to you, I am very much aware of the pains experienced by you in your work, those ones among you who argued with you and other people right up to this moment, hence this huge praise to you collectively. Congratulations, the moment is at hand.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EKo te mauri, ko te wai ora o te Waip\u0101, ko Waiwai\u0101\u2014the essence and well-being of the Waip\u0101 is Waiwai\u0101. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022a503c71fe5444ed29798813068a8bea1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a503c71fe5444ed29798813068a8bea1\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou Maniapoto kua tae mai nei ki te kawe i t\u0113nei kaupapa. He iti n\u0101ku t\u0113nei rau hei whakatutuki i \u014D koutou nei wawata. T\u0113nei an\u014D i whakahokia mai \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 kupu k\u014Drero i waihotia e Ng\u0101ti Unu, ko Waip\u0101 te toto o te tangata, ko Waip\u0101 te toto o te whenua. Koia hoki te wai manawa whenua. Ko Waip\u0101 t\u0113tehi o ng\u0101 taonga o Maniapoto wh\u0101nui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[Thank you. Congratulations to you, Maniapoto, who have arrived to take up this matter. In respect of fulfilling your aspirations, this contribution of mine is but a small one and relates to the aphorism left by Ng\u0101ti Unu, in that Waip\u0101 is the blood of the person and, as a consequence, the blood of the land. Indeed, it waters the heart of the land. Waip\u0101 is one of the treasures of Maniapoto at large.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIt gives me great pleasure to join in the comments in regards to this bill for Ng\u0101 Wai o Maniapoto, the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill. I want to acknowledge the many people who have contributed to the compilation of histories, to the technical working group who have put a lot of the effort into preparing this particular claim, to the Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board, and to the negotiating team: Tiwha Bell, John W\u012B, and Weo Maag. I particularly want to acknowledge Tiwha Bell, and your efforts to steward what has been, I think, the beginnings of a process for a larger comprehensive claim for Maniapoto going forward. That has not been without trial and tribulation. It is important to note for members of the House today that this particular bill is a step towards a comprehensive Treaty settlement for Maniapoto. It is my sincere hope, Minister, that within this term the opportunity for Maniapoto to continue its path to seek the full restoration of its Treaty settlement claims in its rohe can be achieved because there is goodwill there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThis bill is also an extension on the intent to have a better governance and management regime for the whole of the Waip\u0101 River, including the upper catchment, as a part of another settlement well known to this House, which is the Waikato River settlement. I have said in contributions before that you cannot have a clean Waikato River with a dirty Waip\u0101, so it is absolutely the aspiration of this House, I am sure on both sides, to work with Maniapoto and Waikato and the other iwi to achieve a common intent, which is clean rivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Hon John Luxton, who is here today representing the Waikato River Authority, and his co-chairing of that body with Tuku Morgan. As a result of this settlement Maniapoto will not only take its place on the river authority, which it already has, but also strengthen its advocacy in terms of how the whole of the Waip\u0101 River can be treated in terms of the governance and co-management challenges going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Minister, who, in the beginnings of his speech, made reference to a rich and diverse history and recollection of what the Waip\u0101 means, and the essence and mauri of the Waip\u0101 River. Really, what you outlined, Minister, was the rich tapestry of k\u014Drero that contributes and is preceding the deed of settlement for Maniapoto. A number of rich k\u014Drero have been captured in the deed of settlement, so thank you for doing that. The Minister outlined that for Maniapoto the Waip\u0101 River is so much more. This is a settlement, indeed, but the river itself and the aim to clean up the river comes with a number of inherent, intrinsic values that give life to who Maniapoto are and how they want to protect this particular river, and also how they want to assert ongoing care and responsibility for this waterway, so thank you again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI look to the statements of significance. Really, it is a matter of refreshing my own memory. I was heartened and delighted to read a recollection of one of the kaum\u0101tua there, George Searancke, when he retold some of his recollections about the Waip\u0101 when he was a child. He said something like this: \u201CDuring the 2nd war \u0026amp; rationing we used the awa for kai as often as we could. Ngati Unu Ngati Ngawaero\u2019s significant tuna pa structure can be viewed if the river level drops during a dry spell in this awa. The 1958 flood changed all that.\u201D It kind of reminded me throughout the process of hearing submissions that we on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee had the good fortune to hear a number of really nice reflections of local history that you would not get anywhere else except through that process. I want to thank everybody who participated in the select committee process and told your stories. I want to ensure that none of that is lost through this settlement, and I certainly hope that for the historical record and for the future benefit of Maniapoto tamariki growing up in their rohe, the rich tapestry of k\u014Drero that is attached to this particular settlement and the Waip\u0101 River in the telling of stories can be shared throughout the schools in the region, because it is just dynamic and rich and gives a strong sense of identity and pride in cultural heritage for the rohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn the debates preceding this third reading I have raised a number of issues that I undertook to follow up on so that I could make progress, I guess, on the concerns that I had raised. Firstly, one of the concerns was on the necessity for Maniapoto and Raukawa to reach their memorandum of understanding, because through the select committee process there was some discussion and debate around the Wharep\u016Bhunga and potential encroachments of interests. I am absolutely assured that the relationship between Raukawa and Maniapoto is sufficient to work that out; I am absolutely assured about that. But I had expressed a concern that if there is further delay on the memorandum of understanding, there could be slippage\u2014probably more on the Crown\u2019s side if people change and memories change in terms of how this debate has stewarded itself through. I understand that even though the memorandum of understanding has not been signed as of yet, there is goodwill to have that completed and, indeed, Raukawa are in its negotiations process. But there will be potential for slippage if there is further delay, and it seems to me, Minister, and it is certainly my hope, that there will be a strong opportunity for that memorandum of understanding to be completed very shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn terms of the issue of scoping costs for the clean-up of the Upper Waip\u0101 River, $10 million has been set aside, but it does fall far short of the sum that was identified as a result of the Waikato River Independent Scoping Study, which attributed a significantly larger amount to the clean-up effort. But my understanding is that there will be a review of this amount after a period of time, and I will put that on the table because it is something that any future Government will have to be well aware of in terms of the mammoth task to clean up the Waip\u0101 River. In a sense it is putting us all on notice that there is probably more to do there on the clean-up side of things. The fact that there will be a review, though, is a positive thing, because I am mindful that when Waikato submitted during the select committee process, they were very clear that their clean-up fund was for the Waikato River and the lower catchment, and this will be something that will need to be worked out I think as the Waikato River Authority makes its decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI would like to end my contribution on where the Minister was highlighting his k\u014Drero, which is the significance of Waiwai\u0101 and how that is reflected in the Treaty settlement. That really is the Waiwai\u0101 Accord, and it is really important to ensure that the accord gives body to the aspirations of Maniapoto in its joint management approaches, and the relationships required to give life to that, and it will be with particular regards to local government and at ministry level that that can be achieved in full. It will be an important part of living the intent of this particular settlement, which is a practical, useful way of managing the whole of the Waip\u0101 River, but, more important for Maniapoto, embodying what is really intended, which is protecting the mauri of the Waip\u0101 River.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E I want to congratulate everyone who has been involved in the settlement\u2014the Office of Treaty Settlements officials, the select committee staff who service the select committee, but, more important, I want to thank the negotiators, the kaum\u0101tua, and everybody from the marae who contributed their rich histories so that today can be realised. And for people who travelled down from home, t\u0113nei te tino mihi atu ki a koutou katoa i t\u0113nei w\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora mai t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022739e4ee16aac4ff68d66eb75cd903474\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022739e4ee16aac4ff68d66eb75cd903474\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I too want to welcome members of Maniapoto to Parliament for this very significant occasion. When dealing with third readings of Treaty bills, it can often be too easy to indulge in superlatives to describe what we have achieved from working together, but I know that this is a joyful and a very noteworthy day for those involved in this negotiation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs I look up into the gallery I see the familiar faces of people without whose hard work and sacrifice we would not have been in this position today. I particularly want to acknowledge the leadership of Tiwha Bell throughout the course of these negotiations. He is a gentleman, of course, but a tough and determined negotiator for his iwi. I also acknowledge the Hon John Luxton, Chair of the Waikato River Authority, and thank him for the wonderful work that he and his team are already doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOne noteworthy feature of the bills we debate today is that they all involve rivers\u2014the Rangitaiki, the Waip\u0101, the M\u014Dhaka, and the Waiap\u016B rivers. There are slightly different co-governance mechanisms. They have been carefully constructed to reflect the needs and the realities of the particular river system. As Acting Minister for the Environment, I want to acknowledge my friend and predecessor Nick Smith, because without his keen intellect and his wonderful support I would not have been able to develop these forms of innovative redress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI say what follows with the greatest of respect and affection, but I have to say that sometimes I get the feeling that the Greens think they have a monopoly on wisdom and virtue on the subject of rivers. But these developments show that both Labour and National Governments have recognised the need for our rivers to be restored, and this Government is determined to see this happen. Indeed, just last Friday I was on the outskirts of Taumarunui with members of the Whanganui iwi, looking at that great river. Increasingly, I am involved in looking at issues relating to the Kaituna and the Manawat\u016B, and I am learning all about SLUIs, which, of course, Shane Jones would know are sustainable land use initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c020219a5c4f492d94d1cee34b0faf1a\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Liquefaction, liquefaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71374c4a49142c89949c5fe46c1078f\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is a slightly different topic. They are issues that are increasingly consuming my time as Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations and in the Acting Minister for the Environment role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E But let us address the river of the moment, the Waip\u0101 River, because that river is at the heart of the community. A healthy Waip\u0101 River sustains abundant life from prosperous communities who, in turn, are responsible for restoring and protecting the health and well-being of the river and all it embraces for generations to come. A healthy Waip\u0101 River also benefits the Waikato River and the greater Waikato region. As Nanaia Mahuta said in her speech, there simply cannot be a healthy Waikato River without a healthy Waip\u0101 River. Achieving this objective will not always be easy, but this bill takes us a step further along the road to our shared goal: the restoration of the protection of the health and well-being of both rivers. I know that by working together with the authority and working under the leadership of John Luxton we can achieve this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut the vision goes further; it makes sure that our children can enjoy the river as we do today and that they will have the full fruits of what the river has to offer. This will be done with an integrated, holistic, and coordinated approach to the management of natural, physical, cultural, and historic resources of both rivers. Through its co-governance and co-management arrangements, this bill will allow for the restoration and protection of the relationship of Maniapoto with the Waip\u0101 River, which, as I said, is part of one river system with the Waikato River. It will also cement the relationship of Waikato River iwi according to their tikanga and kawa with the Waikato River and the Waip\u0101 River. So we have an opportunity not only to improve but also to revitalise both these rivers, and Maniapoto\u2019s input is absolutely essential if we are going to make that successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThis bill will not only enhance significant sites but also protect fisheries, flora, and fauna. This bill recognises that the rivers are not just essential to the economic and environmental well-being of the region but they are of strategic benefit to New Zealand as a whole. The vision of the river will also see the restoration of water quality so that it is safe for people to swim in, and take food from, the river over its entire length. The vision also sets out how the river can be a hub for the community, and, with improved access to the Waikato River and Waip\u0101 River, how it can be used and promoted for sporting, recreational, and cultural activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAll of this is possible if there is a strategy to match this vision. I know from working with Maniapoto that not only do we have this strategy but we have the team and we have the people who will work to implement it, a team who are going to be dedicated to achieving the ultimate objective of creating a river that is there for future generations to use and enjoy. I acknowledge what Ms Mahuta said about the $10 million. As Acting Minister for the Environment I was sorely tempted to sweep in and see whether I could augment that fund, but I think that would be abuse of my powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E But she is absolutely right: we make a start, we see how the clean-up goes, and in the fullness of time it may have to be reviewed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBy ensuring Maniapoto a position on the co-governance entity we are further establishing the relationship between the Crown and iwi, working in good faith to enhance the environment, and establishing a lasting organisation that can build the foundations for the future. The co-governance entity is made up of appointees from Maniapoto, Waikato-Tainui, Te Arawa, T\u016Bwharetoa, Raukawa, and the Crown, and together we are going to work to ensure that our shared vision will once again make this most beautiful of rivers an economic and cultural hub of the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I acknowledge the enthusiasm, the hard work, and the leadership of the negotiators. They have provided the foundation that has allowed us to get to this point. All of that hard work will now lead to the improved management of the river. This legislation will be the basis of, and establish, a new and rekindled relationship between Maniapoto and the Crown, a relationship that is based on mutual trust, cooperation, and respect for the principles of the Treaty. They are relationships I think all New Zealanders can rightfully take pride in. With Maniapoto now rightly part of the co-governance and co-management of the Waip\u0101 and the Waikato Rivers a more prosperous and just future is assured for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFinally, I respond to the concluding words of Nanaia Mahuta, and acknowledge that this great iwi has done so much to advance this settlement and assure her that during the term of this Government we will move together toward the resolution of the comprehensive Treaty claim. So I am very much looking forward to sitting on the opposite side of the table of Mr Tiwha Bell and dealing with those issues before 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea47f6d5c05c4e039c9ba30add1ece3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea47f6d5c05c4e039c9ba30add1ece3a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, te Kaihaut\u016B o te Whare. K\u0101ti, me tuku i te reo tuatahi ki te t\u0101piri atu i \u0113tahi kupu whakamihimihi m\u0101ku, ki \u014D t\u0101tou hu\u0101nga ki \u014D t\u0101tou m\u0101tua, koutou kua tat\u016B mai ki Te Upoko o Te Ika; \u0101, ki te noho ng\u0101tahi, whai taringa mai ki a m\u0101tou ng\u0101 kait\u014Drangap\u016B M\u0101ori, i a m\u0101tou e whakapau kaha ana ki te whakatutuki i t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga, o ng\u0101 nawe i heke mai i \u014D t\u0101tou, i \u014D koutou m\u0101tua hei whakakor\u014Dria m\u0101 t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei rangi. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[Salutations to you, Mr Speaker of the House. Well, then, a contribution in the first language to add my comments to the congratulatory remarks to our relations, parents\u2014you who have arrived here in Wellington to sit together and to listen to us M\u0101ori politicians working hard to conclude this part of the concerns that came down from our parents and yours, and for us to glorify today. So congratulations, well done, and salutations to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs I have said in M\u0101ori, I acknowledge the presence of the representatives from Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, not the least of whom is Tiwha Bell, and I think I see Mr Koroheke there, and a variety of other people. If I mention any others the women will take offence, but it is good to see them in this House today, so that they can check up on what their parliamentarians are doing to enable the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill to move through the next stage. I would also like to acknowledge Mr Luxton\u2014the Hon John Luxton\u2014and welcome him back to this particular place. After all, he was the Minister of Maori Affairs for a period of time, and he has the burdensome responsibility of now steering the implementation of the innards of this legislation to a better place. T\u0113n\u0101 koe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations has reminded us each of the four bills in the House today is dealing with a river. This bill deals with the Waip\u0101 River, a river by dint of my ancestry\u2014that is the Ng\u0101puhi side, not the Yugoslavian side\u2014we know well. It is a river that contains a number of stories of an intertribal rivalry. It is a river that has, as my colleague referred to, its kaitiaki, Waiwai\u0101. It is a river that begins at the K\u0101hiwi o Rangitoto, it comes down, and it actually joins the Waikato River near Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia. So it is a river those of us who are from the M\u0101ori world have a certain association with, quite apart from the tangata whenua, who are looking forward, no doubt, to playing a more meaningful role in catchment and environmental management, but challenging themselves as well in drawing the balance between economic endeavours and cultural heritage and environmental integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAll of us are stakeholders in this. There are some parliamentarians, our friends here from the Greens, who have developed it into an art form. There are those members on the other side of the House who have perhaps more of a farming background\u2014well, not more of a farming background than Parekura or me, but that aside\u2014and there are those of us who have cut our teeth on the development of institutions for resource management. A number of us worked with former Labour Governments developing the Resource Management Act, which has probably reached a point in time where it should be reviewed comprehensively anyway, but that is another matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis is a significant day for us to join with Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto and ensure that this bill actually embeds the tangata whenua in the business of managing the effects of using the environment. No. 2 is that their rights and their involvement can never be swiped aside as a consequence of the passing prejudices of whoever might be the local government councillors, or the regional councillors, at a point in time. There is a style of approaching constitutional issues called the Diceyean style. Basically, unless something is posited in the law you rely upon the goodwill of the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and, now, the Supreme Court as to whether or not your perceived interests will ever be upheld. This bill is well and truly in the Diceyean tradition. It ensures that statutory decision makers cannot wipe out, or cannot swipe aside, the interests of this group of tangata whenua. For those reasons, the advances\u2014dare I say\u2014that are represented in this bill from what we sought to do under the leadership of Michael Cullen in our time are applauded and supported on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Maniapoto, among other things, have as one of their proverbial symbols the kawau m\u0101r\u014D, meaning the diving cormorant\u2014i.e. when you watch that bird preparing to take flight, it goes straight into either the ocean or the river to catch its prey. We look forward to that level of focus being brought forward by them for the comprehensive land settlement. If there is ever a case where there is a fantastic story about the perils of aligning oneself with the Crown and potentially mismanaging relationships with your neighbours, you will find it in the area we currently call the King Country. One of the most celebrated warriors of M\u0101ori history came from the King Country\u2014Maniapoto. Quite apart from Maniapoto being the son of Rereahu\u2014I talk here to Rewi Maniapoto, the son of Te Ngohi, one of the five, if memory serves me correctly, who signed the Treaty of Waitangi. Unlike us Ng\u0101puhi, they were a little bit more aloof from the Treaty of Waitangi. We found every cook, every nephew, and said: \u201CBoy, put your name on it. You never know what is going to be important in the future.\u201D Indeed, people like Hone Harawira and me have multiple ancestors whose names are dotted around the pages of the Treaty, and we claim them to be paramount chiefs. The only thing is that we wiped out the institution of paramount chiefs, and we are now all squabbling warriors in the north, but that is another matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhen we give a third reading speech, and we have been able to cobble together the finest sentiments that we, as parliamentarians, want to bring to the fore, we actually want to see this phase come not so much to an end, but so that we can move on, so that M\u0101ori investors, M\u0101ori children and parents, M\u0101ori communities and neighbourhoods take on a slightly different stake in the fortunes of their region or, indeed, in our overall country that is not characterised by the dust that is stirred up every year at Waitangi or the inevitable stoushes that might flow from this place or break out in the media. Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto certainly deserve a higher level of attention in relation to their comprehensive claim, and I am sure I support Nanaia Mahuta in encouraging the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations to move us in that particular direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is not going to be easy for groups such as this to actually meet the full responsibilities of integrating M\u0101ori thinking into environmental management, because there are going to be big trade-offs. We are in the business of trying to grow an export economy; we are in the business of trying to expand jobs and deepen the reservoirs of capital in New Zealand. Well, to do that, we need to develop. So it is a balance between how you further develop in this particular region of M\u0101oridom and, at the same time, clean up the river. But the fact is that they are going to be integrally involved at long last and cannot be just wiped aside because of the sort of whim of a particular farmer\u2019s wife, or whoever might enjoy that short opportunity\u2014mercifully short\u2014to be on the regional council. No, we have a personality at least as august as the Hon John Luxton. I am sure he will take his responsibilities as seriously as Tiwha Bell and his wh\u0101nau and his iwi are showing us today. They come to witness history. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u00227bf839d3d96a497dbac8323504eb02fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bf839d3d96a497dbac8323504eb02fc\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. It is my privilege to rise to speak on behalf of the Green Party to support the passing of this bill, the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill. E ng\u0101 iwi o Maniapoto, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E[To the people of Maniapoto, greetings to you, greetings to you, and greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EIn Te Ao M\u0101ori, when a person is asked where they come from, the question is: \u201CKo wai koe?\u201D\u2014\u201CWhere is your water?\u201D. It is more than just a question; it is an indication of your identity, and so for me it is a real privilege to stand here today to honour the passing of this bill. I am a daughter of Raukawa. Ko Wharep\u016Bhunga t\u014Dku maunga. Ko Waikato t\u014Dku awa. Ko T\u0101inui t\u014Dku waka. Ko Raukawa t\u014Dku iwi. Ko Ng\u0101ti Huri t\u014Dku hap\u016B. So I also want to acknowledge my links with Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, our whanaunga, and our links through our rivers\u2014through the Waikato, and through the Waip\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the deep feelings and the loss that Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto have suffered as a result of the wrongs that have been done to them by the Crown. I pay tribute to all those who have worked on both sides\u2014on the Crown\u2019s side, and on the side of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto\u2014to redress that. I pay tribute to all those who have persevered, and who have pursued justice and restitution, and I acknowledge today the passing of this bill as going in some part towards addressing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EIn reading the background to this bill, I have gained a small understanding of some of the longstanding issues that have occurred. I acknowledge the struggle that Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto have had to maintain and to regain their role of kaitiakitanga over their awa\u2014their river\u2014the beautiful Waip\u0101. Maniapoto have spoken of the degradation of the river from the run-off from farms and sewage, and of degradation through development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EI remember the Waip\u0101 River as a beautiful river. I have gathered watercress on its banks, I have gone eeling there, and I have swum in it, because as a child I used to spend most of my summers around Whatawhata and Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia. And, of course, I have swum in our river too\u2014in the Waikato\u2014as a child. But those days have long gone. In parts the Waip\u0101 is a very degraded river. It is almost impossible in some parts to swim in it today. So I am heartened by this bill, and I am heartened by the fact that Maniapoto have been returned to their role as kaitiaki, and that they will be able to work in a co-governance and co-management relationship with the Crown and with councils to clean and nurture the Waip\u0101, and return her to health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EI am aware from the raupatu settlement for Waikato, Tainui, and Raukawa, which established the co-management relationship for the Waikato and the clean-up there, that the arrangement that Maniapoto are entering into will not be without its challenges. I applaud their generosity for entering into this arrangement. The co-management model will not stop the call that others will have on this river. It will not stop the competing claims, and it has been alluded to, I think, by several other speakers: the wish for economic development, and how you balance that with environmental benefits, as well. This does cause tension, so I think it is a very brave thing, and a very generous thing, for Maniapoto to enter into this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe Green Party stands on a charter that recognises te Tiriti as the founding document in this land of Aotearoa, and one of our core principles is around honouring and protecting the environment. Another is a firm dedication to fairness and to peace and justice, and this bill fits with those founding principles. So I give thanks that the Crown has moved to restore some of the rights of this tangata whenua to exercise tino rangatiratanga over their traditional resources. However, we in the Greens also acknowledge that this bill will never be a final and full restitution of the wrongs that have been done. Maniapoto have made huge sacrifices to accept this arrangement, and I acknowledge that. We do not accept that these settlements are full and final settlements. In a generation to come these issues may be revisited, especially if the health of the Waip\u0101 River is not addressed in this generation. So these settlements may never be settled. They are a deal that exists at the moment, but we acknowledge that this is a massive step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe Greens will be voting to support this bill, of course, not just because we have a policy around cleaning up our environment and cleaning up our rivers but also because this is a bill that is full of hope. The Greens wish Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto every success in the role that they take on to re-establish their rightful place as the guardians of the Waip\u0101 River. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002220b8c83daf524a3d84f8603e322f4638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220b8c83daf524a3d84f8603e322f4638\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Whare. Rau rangatira m\u0101, t\u0113nei te mihi ki a koutou i runga i te kaupapa o te r\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou ng\u0101 iwi o Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. E te Minita, tino rawe e te kaitiakitanga o ng\u0101 take p\u0113r\u0101 r\u0101 i te Tiriti o Waitangi, n\u014D reira, e te Whare M\u012Bere, kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Speaker and the House. Leaders of a hundredfold, I acknowledge you in respect of the matter of the day. To the people of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, salutations, acknowledgments, and greetings to you all. To the Minister, you are truly a great guardian of matters like those relating to the Treaty of Waitangi. Therefore I acknowledge the Beehive and thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis is another proud day for this House. It is a proud day as we complete more settlements that have been outstanding for not just years, but decades. This Government has signed 22 deeds of settlement since we came into office in November 2008, and today will go down as another milestone in our progress towards all settlements. Settlements recognise the rights and wrongs of the past and have an important part in strengthening the relationship between the Crown and iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI want to use the words of my colleague and the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, the Hon Tau Henare, who said in a recent settlement speech that we cannot call New Zealand a truly democratic society until all of our nation\u2019s sores have been healed. So today is another big step forward in healing our nation and, in this case, those surrounding the Waip\u0101 River. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EToday is also a significant day for me as the member of Parliament for Taup\u014D. The Waikato River connects the people of my electorate from T\u016Brangi in the south to Cambridge in the north. And as the Waip\u0101 is the Waikato River\u2019s largest tributary, in length 116 kilometres, your river connects to the one I represent. This bill is an important companion to the Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Bill, which was first introduced in April 2010. So this is the final piece of the puzzle that gives effect to the co-governance arrangements for the Waikato River. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWe recognise that the Waip\u0101 River is a significant contributor to the waters of the Lower Waikato River, and to social, cultural, and environmental as well as economic well-being across the entire region. We recognise, Mr Assistant Speaker Tisch, that this river is your taonga and that the relationship with the river lies at the heart of Maniapoto\u2019s spiritual and physical well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe involvement in co-governance and co-management of the Waip\u0101 River is a key aspect of the longer-term sustainability of the Waip\u0101 River, both for today and for future generations. I see friends and partners in the gallery who are also working in important work to clean up the Waikato River, and I acknowledge their presence in the gallery. I also want to acknowledge the presence of the Hon John Luxton, who is the co-chair of the Waikato River Authority. It was just on Saturday that I attended the Raukawa 25th year celebrations and it was great to see a public display of the progress that the Waikato River Authority has been making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo this is a proud day for this House. The settlements help to unlock the economic potential for iwi. It is a significant boost for regions\u2014in this case the Waikato region, the greater region\u2014and also assists in very small communities as well as the wider region, and also our nation. It is clearly part of our priority as the Government in ensuring that we build a more competitive and productive economy. So let us celebrate this day together. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u0022a775ff6830924d26bc3b8f85e0f8015e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a775ff6830924d26bc3b8f85e0f8015e\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill and would like to say \u201CKia ora, wh\u0101nau.\u201D This legislation is particularly dear to my Maniapoto heart. As with other settlements this journey has been arduous, and was actually parked as an outstanding issue from the Tainui settlement in 1995. Included in those issues are the harbours of Whangaroa, K\u0101whia, Raglan, and Manukau. Those matters are still under consideration, and I hope that that process will proceed expediently and expeditiously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EHowever, in this particular legislation I am pleased that recognition is given by the Crown of the importance of our river. M\u0101ori and many other New Zealanders believe that our rivers contain the spirit of the blood and bones of our ancestors. It is common sense, really. The rain comes down, it falls over and through the soil, over the blood and bones of our dearly departed, and into our river system. The process is called leaching and it is our wairua. It is important we honour the wairua and in return it will honour us. Again, it is common sense: a clean river bathes and feeds us. So we look forward to the restoration, the quality, and the continuing integrity of our rivers and our sacred waters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EThere are many who rejoice at this settlement, both past and present. I know that presently Koro W\u0113tere, who is unable to be here today because of a bad leg, will be sitting at home there in Te K\u016Biti smiling. I acknowledge his work and leadership as a former MP who intimately knows the parliamentary systems and processes, but has still had to wait so long to see this bill come to fruition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E This bill is about people and spirit and wairua. So I would like to acknowledge a couple of past giants of Maniapoto. First, my old friend Koro T\u016B\u012B. I knew him simply as Tui, a friend beyond peer when it came to baking r\u0113wena bread and a wealth of knowledge on the healing plants of New Zealand, such as harakeke, koromiko, karamu, kawakawa, and so many others. But Tui was a master of many talents. Tui was the orator who gave the oration to the elevation of the king. He was a spokesman to the M\u0101ori King and Queen, and he was a teacher to all, embodying knowledge, humility, and dignity. I am so proud that his sacred awa is in caring and responsible hands. Kua t\u016B t\u014Dna wairua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EI will be brief and finish this New Zealand First contribution with a proverb by another giant of Maniapoto, the late Dr Pei Te Hurinui Jones, historian of the tribe and the first chairman of the Waikato-Maniapoto Trust Board until his death, and now laid to rest in Te K\u016Biti. This is his whakatauk\u012B. Kia hora te marino, kia whakapapa pounamu te moana, kia tere te k\u0101rohirohi i mua i t\u014Du huarahi. May the calm be widespread, may the ocean glisten as greenstone, and may the shimmer of life ever dance across your pathway. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022efb6765dc5bd469b9c91a36a41fa1f87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efb6765dc5bd469b9c91a36a41fa1f87\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E E te Kaik\u014Drero o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Tuarua, ki ng\u0101 mema, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Ng\u0101 iwi o Maniapoto, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E[Mr Speaker of the House, greetings to you. Secondly, to the members, greetings to you, and greetings to the people of Maniapoto.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EIt is an honour and a privilege to be speaking on these very important claim settlement bills today. Firstly, I would like to acknowledge John Luxton, sitting in the House today. It is important that we all recognise, as previous speakers have done, that we need to right the wrongs of the past and strengthen and move forward with the relationship between iwi and the Crown. This is important so that New Zealand can move forward as one. I would like to acknowledge those who are no longer with us and those who have shown commitment and courage on this journey to get here today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI would firstly like to recognise the importance of the Waip\u0101 River to the Maniapoto people and acknowledge its deep cultural and spiritual significance. To Maniapoto, the Waip\u0101 is a sacred river where the T\u016Bhoe rituals were performed, where the umbilical rights were observed, and where the purification rituals were undertaken. The Waip\u0101 is the river who chants her farewell to the departed ones, and the river whose waters bid welcome to newborns and visitors from afar. Through co-governance we hope to achieve the long-term health of the river and sustain its environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is to maintain the quality and the integrity of the waters that flow into and form part of the Waip\u0101 River for present and future generations. We as the Crown have a responsibility in terms of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi to provide for the relationship with Maniapoto and their culture and traditions with the Waip\u0101 River, to also improve and coordinate governance and management arrangements for the Waip\u0101 River\u2019s strategic performance with New Zealand\u2019s social, cultural, environmental, and economic well-being, and to provide clear direction and certainty around the co-governance and co-management of the Waip\u0101 River. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EWe want future generations to benefit from this river. Maniapoto\u2019s connection to the river transcends the arguments of ownership, because it is part of the identity of their people. It is a sacred connection that we must respect and honour. In the area of the Upper Waip\u0101 River in particular, the people of Maniapoto have a significant stake in the social, economic, and environmental well-being of the community. We share the same common goal of wanting to protect the river and its resources. Its sustainability is key to its survival. The river gives spiritual nourishment to the people of Maniapoto and through our co-governance it will continue not only for the iwi but also for the greater community as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EOther speakers are correct when they have said that it is not possible to fully compensate iwi for the loss their people have suffered, as we cannot turn the clock back or return all that was lost. I acknowledge the generosity of the iwi in accepting this. This is a very important day, not only for those who have gathered here today but also for those who have gone before us and for those who will follow us. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0a3eea303504ecaab6211757d99004e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0a3eea303504ecaab6211757d99004e\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E I a koutou katoa o Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, e mihi kau ana. E tautokotia atu te mihimihi a t\u014D t\u0101tou Minita M\u0101ori me taku tuauhine a Nanaia, ki a koutou katoa e Tiwha, nau mai hara mai. Hara mai ki te w\u0101hi nei m\u014D te t\u012Bmata o te otinga m\u014D koutou. Te huarahi nei he roaroa atu ahakoa, e mihi kau ana ki a koe. Ki a koe, John, me a koe Well, e mihi kau ana. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, nau mai, hara mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EKi a koe te tuakana e Tuku, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. E pai ana te kite atu i a koe i reira e manaaki atu ana i te \u0101hua o te ker\u0113me nei. N\u014D reira e Tuku, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. E Gannon, e mihi kau ana. N\u0101 te pai hoki o te t\u016B kaha o Gannon me Nanaia, me te puta atu o Wawaea, te tama toa o koutou katoa. E mihi kau ana ki te mokopuna a Wawaea. P\u0113r\u0101 an\u014D te rekareka e whai atu ng\u0101 tuku e waihotia atu ng\u0101 tupuna ki a t\u0101tou. Moumou t\u0101ima ingoa atu ng\u0101 p\u0113pi, ng\u0101 mokopuna, e Leslie, a Jemima p\u0113r\u0101 tonu. I reira k\u0113 e ora ana ng\u0101 ingoa o t\u0101tou, i t\u016B kaha atu te \u0101hua o te motuhake. N\u014D reira, i a koutou katoa, nau mai, hara mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ETo members of the Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board, Ray W\u012B, Bob Koroheke\u2014e Bob, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. John, H\u012Brere and M\u012Bria, e mihi kau ana, me koutou katoa. Te mate e t\u016B ingoa, e waiho atu w\u0113tahi i waho engari, e rekareka atu i te kite atu i a koutou e tae tahi i konei i te manaaki t\u0113nei tino tuku, t\u0113nei tino kawenata, te t\u012Bmata m\u014D te rangi nei. E mihi kau ana ki a Clare Crickett me te Minita i muri r\u0101 a John Luxton, t\u0113n\u0101 koe John. Tangata pukumahi i te manaaki atu i t\u0113nei \u0101hua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EE rongo atu koutou ki te k\u014Drero o Nanaia m\u014D te \u0101hua o te wai. E reka hoki atu i te k\u014Drero o te tuahine nei o te r\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki, a Denise m\u014D te k\u012B: \u201CKo wai koe?\u201D. P\u0113r\u0101 an\u014D te whakahaere o te wai. \u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 koe m\u014D t\u0113r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EN\u0101 te mea, e whakahoki atu ng\u0101 whakaaro e t\u012Bmata a Bob m\u0101. T\u014D r\u0101tou whawhai tonu atu e tae atu i P\u014Dneke nei, k\u0101re te nui o te p\u016Btea, k\u0101re e taea i runga i te waka rererangi, e tae atu i roto i t\u014D r\u0101tou motok\u0101 pakaru, i konei i te whawhai tonu atu. I te w\u0101 nei kei te kaha k\u0113 koutou i runga i te waka rererangi, e Tiwha, e tae atu i konei. \u0112ngari, n\u0101 te rere haere, te rere pai in\u0101ianei, kei te noho tahi koutou i te taha o Tainui hei whakatikatika i te ahua o te wai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EE mihi kau ana ki te Minita nei, a Chris Finlayson. Tino tangata a Chris Finlayson. Mihi atu ki t\u014D t\u0101tou Minita a Pita. N\u0101 te pai e rongo atu au ki a Chris Finlayson e k\u012B atu, kei te tere taea te otia o ng\u0101 ker\u0113me katoa m\u014D Maniapoto m\u014D t\u0113nei nohonga o te Whare Miere. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Chris.\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[Salutations, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. I endorse the acknowledgments of our Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and my sister M\u0101ori member Nanaia. Welcome, Tiwha; welcome, everyone. Welcome to this place, which is the beginning of the end for you. Although it has been a long road, I congratulate you. You too, John and Well\u2014greetings. Salutations to you collectively, welcome, welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ESalutations, brother Tuku. It is good to see you over there taking care of things that have an impact on this claim. So thank you. I acknowledge you as well, Gannon. Because of the firm stance taken by Gannon, Nanaia, and the emerging Wawaea, all of you are of champion stock. A special mention of Wawaea\u2019s grandchild too. It is wonderful to follow connections left to us by ancestors. It is a waste of time giving names like Leslie and Jemima to babies and grandchildren. That is why our names are more enduring and have a bit of independence about them. So to all of you, welcome, welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ETo members of the Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board, Ray W\u012B, Bob Koroheke\u2014hello, Bob, John, H\u012Brere, M\u012Bria, and all of you. Hi there. The problem with naming people is that someone is left out, but it is great to see you arriving here together to take care of this great legacy, this agreement, which commences today. I want to thank Clare Crickett and the former Minister John Luxton. Hello, John. He is one who worked tirelessly to look after this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EYou heard what Nanaia had to say about the water. It was wonderful to hear the contribution by this fellow colleague from the Green Party, Denise, when she said: \u201CKo wai koe?\u201D. The management of water is so much like that. Thank you for that, Denise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIt brings us back to the ideas that Bob and others initiated. Their conflicts brought them all the way to Wellington here. Because of the lack of funds, flying down was out of the question so it meant coming in a car that often broke down to continue the battle down here. But that has all changed now. Tiwha will concur that they fly down these days. As a consequence, collaboration with Tainui is closer and faster in terms of addressing issues relating to water management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI congratulate this Minister, Chris Finlayson. He is a great man. Our Minister Pita is acknowledged as well. It is good to hear Chris Finlayson saying that the extended sitting of the House will make it possible for all claims relating to Maniapoto to be settled and completed. Thank you, Chris.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI am certainly buoyed and encouraged in hearing the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations promising to finalise all their settlements in this term of Government. That is encouraging. I want to thank him sincerely for the efforts he has put in, as well as the efforts of Ministers who are not here, like Michael Cullen and those who certainly helped. You heard about the co-governance framework and about the issue that is relevant in terms of cleaning the river. Do you know what? It is amazing that these five settlements today all have some great tributary or awa that is important not because of the ups and downs on water now, or fracking or whatever is going on, but because something has been tuku-ed to them through generations in the sense of kaitiakitanga and manaakitanga and the truism around those statements, not just some modern ideology about getting the water clean because the cows have mimi-ed in it or whatever else, but something that you know that you have practised. It will need a lot of effort to keep it clean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI do want to strongly recognise Tuku Morgan\u2019s role in this over a period of time working on the river, the late Raih\u0101 M\u0101huta, who really battled hard to get to the stage that Waikato has got to, and you people who have put in that effort. I know certainly from the work of the Hon John Luxton, with his tenacity and his fairness, that this is serious talk, and it is a great example for nationhood. As I said earlier on, we pahupahu about nationhood and about Kiwis and this and that. All I know about kiwis is that they move around at night, stalking in the dark and trying to attack everything that is living. It seems to me that we need to rename ourselves something else, because we are coming into the light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe sentiment and whatever else is something that this co-governance and management framework should and will address. I want to say here and now that we have done a few of these settlements now, and there is a lot of promise in them about partnership. I know that the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations and our Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs will ensure that the relevance is serious. It is too easy\u2014as some have done in the past with Treaty settlements\u2014to sign agreements with Government agencies or sign charters that OK a way forward and then just pay them lip-service. That is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EHone arrives late. Kia ora, Hone. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Hone. Hone is a battler, and he talked about what Ng\u0101puhi did with this awa. I want to mihi to Hone. We all have an affiliation to it, and it is a great statement by our elders that we want the waters to return so that we can eat the fish out of them like we used to, so the fish are healthy and they grow, and so the tamariki can swim in them again. It is ever so simple. It is a simple way to make a statement about the river. This is not about any other part of the settlement; it is the beginning. You need to be encouraged that it is the day for you to celebrate, because it is the beginning of the end of a long, long journey of water that people fought over\u2014water that people lived on. That is the one thing about the waka. There are two great things that we still have today that we do. We hoe waka ama, and that is about rowing those waters\u2014and I want to mihi to Peter Douglas, who, like Hone, is getting here late, but kia ora, Peter\u2014and the Waitomo Caves. We remember Koro W\u0113tere, who is not here today, for the effort that he has put in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe benefit to the community of the arrangements to include the Waikato River would be diminished if the Upper Waip\u0101 River were not included. Having this regime and listening to the Minister\u2019s promise today about his wish to finalise things put right a terrible wrong that happened to Maniapoto. The wars are well renowned of who set to on whom and what the British did. Today is a great day to start repairing that in order to make sure that something is done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI want to say to the Hon John Luxton and to Tuku Morgan that it is exciting and encouraging to think that M\u0101ori are leading the way in trying to correct that paruparu. We do not need new environmentalists who arrive on the scene and huff and puff\u2014and I want to mihi to the Green Party for its seriousness\u2014but there are some people who are turning up and saying: \u201CPay us some money and we\u2019ll show you how to clean the river.\u201D The nation should understand that M\u0101ori have compromised in this to make sure that the river is clean. The nation should understand that M\u0101ori are serious about nurturing and looking after something that was theirs a long, long time ago and that they managed, lived on, swam in, and got food out of. It was a source of replenishment and something that nobody else used. Then other people turned up in the country, and they are the new partners in this co-management framework. We need to be serious about that, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI am very thankful that Minister Finlayson\u2014[Interruption] Mr Assistant Speaker Tisch, you rang the bell; I know this is in your territory. Tiwha Bell has done a great job along with Minister Finlayson, who has promised to finish the claims in this sitting of Parliament. That is something that I will really celebrate at the end of this day. It is great for these M\u0101ori ears to hear that from a learned leader and Minister of the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, e mihi kau ana i a koutou katoa. Kia pai t\u014D hoki ki te k\u0101inga, kia pai t\u014D manaaki o t\u014D wai. \u0100 te w\u0101 e hoki atu koutou, hei oti pai atu te ker\u0113me. E Tuku, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e noho whakah\u012Bh\u012B mai n\u0101 i kon\u0101, i te taha o te tangata porohewa, manaakitia atu. T\u014D kaha. I a koutou katoa hoki e Tiwha, e Gannon, kia kaha, kia m\u0101ia. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[So congratulations to you all. Return home safely and take care of your water. In time you will return to put the finishing touches to the claim. Hello there, Tuku, sitting proudly over there beside that bald-headed man. Look after him. Remain strong. Tiwha, Gannon, all of you as well, remain strong and courageous. Well done, everyone.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca1cb6638f694969af1ebd378e2e1aa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca1cb6638f694969af1ebd378e2e1aa4\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (Leader\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I am a little disappointed in the previous speaker, Parekura Horomia, sitting down so early, because he actually texted me a message to come and sing a song for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7342bd4241645ef8c250b25edc14111\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d79abe487b421c99640f454e282702\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: But he sat down, so I will not be singing for him. Me mihi atu ki a koutou kua tae mai i te r\u0101 nei. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tau katoa. Me te mea an\u014D hoki e tika ana kia m\u014Dhio, hakoa ko wai te p\u0101ti, ko wai te M\u0101ori e t\u016B ana i roto i ng\u0101 kaupapa nei, e t\u016B kotahi ana m\u0101tau hei tautoko i te \u2019hakahokia i te iti mana ki roto i a koutou an\u014D. Hara i te mea kia oti pai ai ng\u0101 raruraru t\u0101 te K\u0101wanatanga, engari kia t\u012Bmatangia ai t\u0113nei h\u012Bkoi, kia t\u016B rangatira ai koutou \u0101 ng\u0101 r\u0101 kei te haere mai. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou kua tae mai i te r\u0101 nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[I must acknowledge you for coming today. Salutations and congratulations to you collectively and to us all. Furthermore, let it be known that no matter which party it is that the M\u0101ori member is in, on matters like these we are united in supporting the return of autonomy to you, small as it might seem. It does not completely address the problems caused by the Government, but it does herald the start of this journey, so that you can stand proudly in the days ahead. So well done, congratulations, and salutations to you collectively who arrived here today.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMy apologies for being late. I had to go and have a meeting with Mike Smith and he specifically asked me to ask for your blessings for when the h\u012Bkoi comes through Maniapoto territory. I think it leaves from Te Rerenga Wairua on 23 April and is due down here on 5 May. I think it is coming down through your territory. He also asked for your tautoko, so I hope you are listening, Mike. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMihi atu ki a koutou, ki a t\u0101tau an\u014D. \u0112ngari, t\u016B ana au ki te tautoko i te kaupapa, kia whakahokia mai he w\u0101hanga ki te iwi, kia whakap\u0101h\u0101 mai te K\u0101wanatanga m\u014D ng\u0101 t\u0101hae kua oti nei i ng\u0101 tau kua pahure ake nei. N\u014D reira, e te iwi kua tae mai, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, huri atu, huri noa, kia ora t\u0101tau katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge you collectively and us as well. But I really stand in support of the philosophy of a partial return to the tribe and that the Government apologises for thefts made in past years. And so to you, the people who have arrived, salutations and congratulations to you and, indeed, to us all, here, there, and throughout.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022da03e0395c7045ebaf83dbde7b55e990\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da03e0395c7045ebaf83dbde7b55e990\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call in this debate on the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Bill. Today is another proud day for this Parliament. It is a proud day for this Government, to see this legislation passing through the House. I think all members of Parliament can be very pleased with the progress that has been undertaken on this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ECan I start by acknowledging the kaum\u0101tua, the kuia, and the people of Maniapoto who are here today to see the progress of this legislation. Today is obviously a very historic day for the people in the gallery. It is a great thing that this House can bring together this legislation to implement the settlements that have been agreed between the people we see here today and the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the Hon Chris Finlayson. Twenty-two settlement bills have been signed since he became the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations; 22 bills that are giving effect to Treaty settlements for iwi and hap\u016B around the country; 22 bills that will help to repair those relationships that had longstanding damage done to them by people in this country in years gone past. As a country that is maturing, as a country that will not have matured until we settle all of these claims\u2014all of these historical grievances\u2014it is a good thing for this House to be undertaking yet another one of these Treaty settlement bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EPeople often say to me that when they watch Parliament all they see is bickering and arguing, and Opposition parties and Governments attacking each other. But much of the work that this House does is done by agreement and by working collaboratively together. I have to say that as a new member of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee I am seeing a lot of that collaboration. I am seeing a lot of that working together through that committee, and that committee\u2019s work is now extending to this House as we debate this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI never thought I would find myself agreeing from time to time with the likes of Hone Harawira or Parekura Horomia. But when we debate these Treaty settlement bills through the committee and through the House we see a lot of collaboration, we see a lot of working together, and that is really what this Parliament is all about. It is all about making changes for the better for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EToday this Parliament is implementing a piece of legislation that will acknowledge the taonga of the Waip\u0101 River part of the Waikato River for the people of Maniapoto, and putting in place the co-management agreement to assist them to have greater control over something that is very special to them. We should be proud as a Parliament for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EBefore I sit down can I, finally, acknowledge the Hon John Luxton. He is someone who has his name written all over the history of the National Party. Mr Luxton, I would be very pleased to meet with you one day and learn a lot from you. I say again congratulations to all members of this Parliament, and I look forward to this bill being read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201203285810b7c9da5c49a2930d03d429e6dfcb000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 11.45 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"