"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225613fa7e855a40ad920db87c092894c5\u0022\u003ETuesday, 16 October 2012\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf5a98aba1da47538d9dd674f47b703c\u0022\u003ETuesday, 16 October 2012\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac437d9688c24e658fa17674da19d521\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022479bbd61aa8a414f89d2acf815a81cde\u0022\u003ECook Islands\u2014Speaker, House of Representatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcbadaccebe5481fbb6ab4f3955cf830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcbadaccebe5481fbb6ab4f3955cf830\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have much pleasure in informing the House that the Speaker of the Cook Islands House of Representatives, the Hon Niki Rattle, is within the precincts of this Chamber. I am sure members would wish that she be welcomed and accorded a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Hon Niki Rattle, accompanied by the Deputy Speaker, entered the Chamber and took a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022640a72efd5ce4a2e80a3c28262757b5c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The right honourable Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002267c213c2f3454529b32dc581070cf25c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267c213c2f3454529b32dc581070cf25c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298fc949d3b744deb480f645c8a88833\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The right honourable Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e912498e8a940da92dd1ddbea4885c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bad91892d8440c6bae8d1af04112ca7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a795b5b88c08483e91004e77ea41007b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220332ce39b7ff4ff4ae0537cf22cbb6dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d6d60567284dce8a07359d378b69ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f8f1c44a7145a5a048981449c6b301\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220257e003afc344d8ba68b5ef16c72069\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. He has not asked for a point of order. I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad697bf760e24d0bbcc56742ab7f10a3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But I have taken the Prime Minister as having called a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc48988980194ab7aafdbe6aa1a3d945\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am raising a point of order, and now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cabedf8aec2943d887852fe19f34ca23\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have already recognised the right honourable Prime Minister. The member will resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224002f60da7f436393e3aee3ac5e7ba1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I am raising a point of order, which is my right to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a32705aeca84badb4bda00035b7b1c8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have already recognised the Prime Minister for a point of order. The member will resume his seat. I have recognised the Prime Minister for a point of order. The Prime Minister will raise his point of order, then the member may raise his point of order, should he wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3a8bba0199414ca27f9db1513d3143\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251db5e9c76a14271a90c6e3080fbd09d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b74f6063c6894f49a5788ba247a6bb55\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, can I conclude with my\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022781779f702034748a1fbee736a0ac9e5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will actually leave the House, unless he actually complies with my rulings. It is very simple. I will not tolerate that kind of nonsense. The member can raise his point of order when he gets his chance. I have recognised the Prime Minister. [Interruption] Order! Order! Members will resume their seats. I am on my feet. This nonsense will stop. The Speaker is at perfect liberty to recognise any member in the House when the Speaker chooses. The Speaker has done that. He has recognised the right honourable Prime Minister on a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc5dd260a58c46d2a895238a9e1f1e34\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cd2ffe8ccb346808cdbcc1bb3f000c7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon Trevor Mallard. It had better be a different question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225facfa472f2f47809d4218af0746fc04\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421fbdd7df744ec09df832087cc683f3\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Mr Speaker, you\u2019ve recognised a point of order, you can\u2019t call another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b3159093f114e9aafb4646d0f7e6bce\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite correct. The member will resume his seat. The right honourable Prime Minister, on a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fad3300ab5d45e9b2f2530cb154daef\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aa780ce6103443780f68309666d70c8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The members will resume their seats, or members will be leaving this House\u2014their choice. I have given a final warning. We will hear the Prime Minister\u2019s point of order. If a member seeks to raise a point of order while the House is hearing the Prime Minister\u2019s point of order\u2014[Interruption] Order! The members will leave the House unless they behave themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0c4a518ea2449a59ed0940a5533cc07\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c35f9ea6724d6c9a3d3d1b610581cd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite at liberty to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a3b336b06044b1929628db25132cc1\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267f0a0e8d9ef4d9286c483503683e702\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat or leave the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022886f61e59f154449b3cf22b58cd78a2e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec7cb9a9f444eda96eced68589ffc5c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will leave the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHon David Parker withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8fc15de6f58436ca9a380b7ad24b20f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The right honourable Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c25d4ee95894c2fb40f42ca5d01058e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c2260df192845a192d4c854b740050f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That member will also leave\u2014[Interruption] The member will leave the House or he will be named. [Interruption] Order! I have recognised the Prime Minister on a point of order. [Interruption] Order! The member will leave the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3e8c213137e4331961959b72e5fb0a1\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cdd6c9e9b6e45b281438aa715399b9b\u0022\u003EDotcom Case\u2014Government Communications Security Bureau Briefings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022153b661528ad43d48e76b3053d5c8930\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022153b661528ad43d48e76b3053d5c8930\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct answers I gave to oral questions during the last sitting week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647585139693462089b2ad36312cb016\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022853b9e10e6f64544bc805afae3e58fcf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: A number of oral questions put to me and the Minister answering on my behalf in the House between 25 and 27 September were based on public statements by me that the first I knew of the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s involvement in the Dotcom matter was on 17 September. That response was based on my recollection. It was shared by the director of the bureau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E A subsequent review of all material held by the bureau found that on 29 February I had viewed a presentation that was not related to the Dotcom file, during a visit to the bureau. I am advised that the talking points for the presentation included a short reference to the Dotcom arrest as an example of cooperation between the bureau and the police. The cover slide was a montage of 11 small images, one of which was of Dotcom. Neither the presentation nor the talking points were provided to me in hard copy. Neither the director of the bureau nor I can recall the reference to the Dotcom matter during the visit, but I accept that it may well have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI wish to make it clear that I was not briefed by the bureau on its role in the Dotcom matter, nor any issues of potential illegality, until Monday, 17 September. This information affects the answers to three specific supplementary questions during oral question No. 1 and oral question No. 10 on 26 September, and oral question No. 2 on 27 September, but I also accept that it did impact on the questions that were asked during the course of the week. My answers to questions were based on my recollection at the time and the view of the director. There was no intention to mislead the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e0f7cd2eb174e98b7f033141b852627\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227919c7fa27f140a29c47b6c7a637da2d\u0022\u003ECall, Seeking\u2014Speaker\u2019s Acceptance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c74110c84fc42f79b8ee72e01a49f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c74110c84fc42f79b8ee72e01a49f2a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. A few moments ago\u2014I just let the din settle down before I raise this point of order with you. A few moments ago the Prime Minister sought the call. He called \u201CMr Speaker\u201D. He did not indicate at the time that he was calling a point of order. Mr Peters, Mr Parker, Mr Mallard, and various others then sought to raise a point of order with you. Of course, under the Standing Orders a point of order comes before all other business, so even if you had granted the Prime Minister the call, you would have been required to take the point of order from Mr Peters. I accept that that led to a testy exchange between members, and that was unfortunate. However, I do note on the Order Paper that Mr Peters does have a question down. It is a legitimate question\u2014it is, presumably, along these lines\u2014and I wonder whether you would consider allowing those members, now that things have settled down, to return to the House, particularly so that these matters can be canvassed by way of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002256b47bbe406a4c20aa0a525ed0b6f4a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256b47bbe406a4c20aa0a525ed0b6f4a1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows full well that I do not ask many members to leave this House\u2014in fact, up until today, only one member this year. I do not do it lightly. The only grounds under which the Speaker could have recognised the right honourable Prime Minister was for a point of order, because there was no other provision for the Prime Minister to speak. Even for a ministerial statement, the Prime Minister has to seek the Speaker\u2019s\u2014[Interruption] Well, the Prime Minister does not have to seek leave to make a ministerial statement, but he does have to, under a point of order, give an explanation that he is making a ministerial statement. So a point of order was the only grounds under which the Prime Minister could have sought the call then, and that is why I recognised it as a point of order. I was perfectly happy to let the members raise their points of order after that\u2014after the House had dealt with the Prime Minister\u2019s point of order. But I am not going to have that nonsense. The Rt Hon Winston Peters is a very experienced member. He knows full well that members who have questions on the Order Paper, if they are required to leave the House\u2014the Hon Trevor Mallard is back in the House, and, actually, I accept he left voluntarily. I accept he left voluntarily. I note that. But members know, experienced members know, that if they have questions on the Order Paper and they are required to leave the House, no one else can ask those questions. I am not about to change the rules. Members know the rules, and members should think about that before they take the Speaker on like that. I was very happy to hear the member\u2019s point of order at the appropriate time. [Interruption] Order! I am on my feet. But the matter is dealt with. I feel sorry that the member has been dealt with in that way, but I must say he was kind of fortunate he was not named for that performance today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263c30ae073cb4305b5caf7053d71198a\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u2014Procedure for Raising Alleged Breaches\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022de48245a060d48068206e5d5edfeb9ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de48245a060d48068206e5d5edfeb9ec\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order is that the Rt Hon Winston Peters wrote to you on 3 October 2012, with a reminder yesterday on 15 October 2012, concerning an investigation into a breach of parliamentary privilege by the right honourable Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022396339b4aa2e455297cd9b6dd2cd80fa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat, or he will be\u2014the member will resume his seat. That has nothing to do with the proceedings of the House. Those matters are dealt with by a letter to the Speaker, and the matter is being dealt with. It is not a matter to be dealt with\u2014[Interruption] Order! I am on my feet. The member will learn to respect that or he will be joining his leader. It is his choice, just like I warned other members. It is their choice. They comply with my rulings or they leave the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f829bcd048d94bdc9eea935cb49cfb61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f829bcd048d94bdc9eea935cb49cfb61\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. On that same matter, surely the House is entitled to an explanation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8379af278fe4bcebfa4b15df07c267e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have ruled on that matter, and that is the end of the matter. I am sorry, but all members have to be treated the same. The matter is not a matter legitimately raised by point of order in the House, and that is the end of that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7e6156c886a40588bb6c2a552d5e307\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7e6156c886a40588bb6c2a552d5e307\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the letters to you from the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222591e2e6105140c39c085a572ee3f58b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00223b5fdcc0ab194434b0462424633e6365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b5fdcc0ab194434b0462424633e6365\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table two letters to you from the Rt Hon Winston Peters, one dated 3 October 2012 and one dated 15 October 2012, concerning a request for an investigation to be undertaken into a breach of parliamentary privilege by the Rt Hon John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022367bb638658f40599ac849f63bc79d3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022367bb638658f40599ac849f63bc79d3a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3caa04ee2b4234a7ff61b9a0bcbf5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3caa04ee2b4234a7ff61b9a0bcbf5f\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Would it be possible\u2014I am asking as a member of the Privileges Committee on this occasion\u2014for you to give the House an indication of when you might have concluded an answer to the request set out in the letter, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00221d7801f9daf5477ba18dee8ce92ac1b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d7801f9daf5477ba18dee8ce92ac1b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker receives such letters on a frequent basis. There is nothing unusual about that. In fact, the Prime Minister\u2019s response on this occasion was received yesterday, and the matter is being considered today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8af1e859c9646c8877cf8ce01c619b4\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002261d8d2fb159a4bfd8c3911ddf348dc05\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c168c155b60243edb84c0bf8ecd629e3\u0022\u003EDotcom Case\u2014Government Communications Security Bureau Actions and Prime Minister\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u002218d33ef088734257a925a2c191d8302f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218d33ef088734257a925a2c191d8302f\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements in relation to Kim Dotcom and the inquiry into the actions of the Government Communications Security Bureau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00227f95f56d792f464aa555ac99111ed731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f95f56d792f464aa555ac99111ed731\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the member to the personal explanation I have just given to the House. At the time I was responding to the questions I believed the answers to be correct. However, evidence has since come to light that suggests that the answers I gave to the House in one specific area may well have been incorrect. I had no intention to mislead the House and I corrected these answers at the first opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221592d321194540ac91f1ad52fae24b85\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: On what date did the Government Communications Security Bureau first become aware that its surveillance of Kim Dotcom was illegal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aaa8d50277a47eeb788cb9021ac0fee\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The first day that I was briefed by the Government Communications Security Bureau about it being illegal was likely to be the 17th. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c596707173664d9eb22c7dca64b78938\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd9c65bd77a645c49fc7a65283ebf04f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think I can predict the Leader of the Opposition\u2019s point of order. The member actually asked on what date the Government Communications Security Bureau became aware that its investigation may have been illegal, not the date on which the Prime Minister was advised of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7310d3275eb4f4ab6860ccd1522784c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that date to hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5e3b238a3d94aa288ffe236db5dd2a7\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Further to his answers on 26 September, when he said he was unsure about the involvement of the SIS or the other staff from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet in the Dotcom case, can he now confirm what involvement those staff had?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243915d7586b94f67b489eeece89d6e83\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm all the involvements. I can confirm that the SIS played a minor vetting role, as it always does when people make applications. I can also confirm that when the SIS and the Government Communications Security Bureau say things, they do not just make it up\u2014like some members do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022055151f2566c47929f071f08821933a2\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398d6136b71d4c34a7d8744cdd5abf36\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I want to hear the Leader of the Opposition\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2585edb75454b8f92e5f9c3310d7910\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: In light of his answer to written question No. 8353, where he confirmed that he discussed the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s illegal surveillance of Dotcom with the Attorney-General but was unable to recall which other two Ministers he raised the issue with, can he now recall and tell the House who those other Ministers were?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225a0aafcfcc449bdb0e73d443c7a52e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df5c0e8735874aad8c94a5bfe2e324e5\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Acting Prime Minister sign a ministerial certificate to suppress and cover up the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s illegal activity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e3fe0a1ff9549a98c7c079eb771eb3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, he was not covering something up. What actually happened was that the Government Communications Security Bureau wanted to have its name not in the public domain, because it believed legally it had acted legally. It also had the paperwork to support that. I have seen that paperwork, and the paperwork made it quite clear it believed its activities to be legal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b18303d3254ccea5ed0364586d3c85\u0022\u003EMichael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to the serious allegations made by David Shearer that \u201Cthere wasn\u2019t a video simply because they\u2019ve taken the hard drives and wiped it\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd50e4dd2fd41c68ec71fe639d64a14\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that those allegations against the Government Communications Security Bureau are extremely serious and reflect on the integrity of the organisation and its staff. I have been advised by the director that there was no video\u2014that there was never a video\u2014and that nothing has been deleted from the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s system. So, quite frankly, Mr Shearer should put up or shut up. In fact, he should apologise for his unsubstantiated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022886ceab4db7b4c3c8a8836ec4b78f87e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022444ec2273520466e93085d8637264513\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc1c5f85c5d4462892f4a38dd4f18fb8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I know the issue is a tense issue, but I want to hear the question from the Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228393490211a4f79a83e8579fb97fa3f\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the following statements does he stand by in his answers about knowledge of the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s involvement in the Kim Dotcom case: \u201CNo, I don\u2019t think so.\u201D, \u201CNo, I don\u2019t remember.\u201D, \u201CLook, I don\u2019t know. Um, you know, who knows?\u201D, \u201CI\u2019m not in a position to answer that.\u201D, and \u201CI don\u2019t remember cracking a joke about that one, because I crack jokes all the time.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022186f53692ff34506a259b08ff4a9bb3e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: In the course of my job I answer questions on a daily basis, at length, to the media. If I am in a position to give the correct answer, I do. If I am not, I simply make sure that I get the correct information. David Shearer went on to Campbell Live and said there was a video, and it had been taken. Then he told David Fisher at the New Zealand Herald: \u201CWell, no, it\u2019s been wiped, because they\u2019ve taken the hard drive.\u201D Then he told Firstline it had been erased. Now he says it is not about the video. Apparently, it is not about the video.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2f59ee44f14e8c881ce14350d788db\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any information about other potential illegal or unlawful acts by other New Zealand Government agencies or a foreign Government agency in the Kim Dotcom case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0dd332f7484bae87863a58eb114cac\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: As the agency pointed out when the review was taking place, there are three other cases that took place between 2009 and 2012.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4fbec702b0a4b0d84bfac5ad1ffce8e\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a specific question about other agencies, not about the Government Communications Security Bureau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227d8217645534740869a21c0fc1d2d6d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was not unreasonable that the question was misunderstood. I invite the member to repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291bb11305e1a43768ad053fdc8625024\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any information about other potential illegal or unlawful acts by other New Zealand Government agencies or a foreign Government agency in the Dotcom case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dadb6f4d98b04cdea895649143931020\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my knowledge, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acad72a61c6240b8855779c0cb87acd1\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question to the Prime Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ec7ea3f0c24fbcb5fce982c786c364\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I want to hear this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cd1d2e2aab4ba79e141117c8d1f535\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Government Communications Security Bureau report to him on the introduction of kiosks into Work and Income offices; if not, why not, given that under the law it is required to give advice on the security and protection of information held by the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5d36e620fa42088a4facaad3950171\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No. I give the member full credit for auditioning for the new job as Leader of the Opposition, because apparently the way\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80e9fe8addf40c3a8a7ce1528812347\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] No, order! Question No. 2, Metiria Turei. [Interruption] Order! Unlike the aforementioned gentlemen, the Prime Minister did sit down when I got to my feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b7c54e4549b45eeb11c129606c9c580\u0022\u003ESocial Development, Ministry\u2014Security of Private Information\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00229e199217780e48f9a618ea83e66598c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e199217780e48f9a618ea83e66598c5\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: Does she have confidence that the Ministry of Social Development can keep private information it holds confidential?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00225efe51b9ad644f828208cb5f02b4b9f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225efe51b9ad644f828208cb5f02b4b9f2\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the Work and Income kiosks, I would have to say no. As the member will be aware, there is an independent investigation into that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022197254a1d9874234969ddd6525c0cec4\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Prior to her announcement of the vulnerable kids information system in the white paper, did the Minister ensure that her ministry could keep information about our most vulnerable children confidential, given that her ministry was advised in April 2011 that this risk existed in Work and Income offices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022943b02a7d4a1493bbf796ac769e09306\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the vulnerable kids information system, I had many meetings not just with my own department on that, but on what the security would be around it. I have got at least 18 months to 2 years to actually put up a prototype and to work through what those experts in security will be around it. We had made the decision previous to this week that we would have an experts advisory group that would ensure that information was kept secure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc60bfc746b4313923d59fff575fd96\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Given that she herself has leaked private details about beneficiaries to the public, contrary to the Privacy Act, will she take personal responsibility for creating the cavalier attitude to privacy now evident within her office and her ministry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da22e7db6397459ba8aaa75a2091652f\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I have not leaked private information about individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec11599a0be4b429265b03292fac961\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Did she or any of her staff have any involvement in the leak of Ira Bailey\u2019s name to the media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c9858212e141958f354c2c9977d51a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Not to my knowledge, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219fa5297aab84dfab6fdd26a44c9db3f\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Will she investigate whether any Ministry of Social Development staff in her office or in the Ministry of Social Development generally were involved in the leak of Ira Bailey\u2019s name to the media; if not, is this because she herself has exhibited such a cavalier attitude to the protection of the privacy of individuals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba4a7cb5aec4b87a4b4ab447f1cae42\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: To be fair, right now my ministry and I are very concerned about people\u2019s personal information being made available through the kiosks. That is our focus; that is the seriousness with which we are taking that. I have zero interest in going on a bit of a witch hunt at the moment. I want to get to the core of what this problem is. I want to fix it, and I want the public to have assurances that that is what we are concentrating on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289619e79e16643c899d415b5399e8c31\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Metiria Turei. [Interruption] Order! Order! I want to hear Metiria Turei\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbac7d56e48148bc880015f6df3b249e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that her failure to respect and protect private information has now exposed thousands of vulnerable New Zealand children to further risk of harm and abuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b379b9b67a342e7976cc8b866018578\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd36a65fbf034cf49bb0029edd7fa8b0\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders trust her oversight of her ministry\u2019s privacy systems when she herself has revealed blatant disregard for privacy, has leaked the information\u2014private information\u2014of individuals to the public, and was not aware that her own kiosks posed such an enormous risk to vulnerable children, and, in the midst of the biggest privacy drama, someone in her office or in her ministry may be responsible for the leaking of private citizens\u2019 information to the media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de7497237da1417392177427657537dd\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Quite frankly, I do not quite know where to start on the presumptions that were in the member\u2019s question. So one is that Mr Ira Bailey phoned into the ministry, did not ask that his information be kept confidential or anything else, and now that his name is out there\u2014and a lot of people knew his name and knew that he had access to that\u2014it is all of a sudden a leak, right? It did not come from me. I did not leak this information, so I actually take that as being factually incorrect. I have not leaked people\u2019s information previously. I think the member should concentrate on what is really important here, and I think that we are taking this very seriously, as we should. As soon as we knew this on Sunday, and it came out, we locked all systems down. We are concentrating right now on restoring the public\u2019s confidence in our ability to hold information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6d60caf553e4b9f92339eec02d822a7\u0022\u003EEconomic Programme\u2014Policies and Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022222db18aa0ee4fcd9fb61ead4228a6ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022222db18aa0ee4fcd9fb61ead4228a6ef\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What are the main features of the Government\u2019s plan to build a more competitive economy based on more savings, higher exports and less debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00226bb1dbaaf80b41428ad6a1a2532dbeba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bb1dbaaf80b41428ad6a1a2532dbeba\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has a number of aspects to our plan. The first is to focus on economic growth, as illustrated by the recent publication of a series of documents outlining our initiatives to support business growth. The second is to focus on a path back to surplus so that Government debt will stop increasing. The third is to provide better public services and a more productive public sector, and the fourth is to rebuild Christchurch. Basically, the Government\u2019s plan is roughly on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cea84fa7afea493581346218dd665548\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: What results has he seen of progress in the Government\u2019s programme to build a more competitive economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b8c7c786b364551b8428f581dba2fc2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In the face of some headwinds from the global economy we have been able to make progress with a number of deep-seated problems in the economy. Inflation is under control and, as we have seen today, the cost of living is rising by just 0.8 percent according to the CPI for September, which came out this morning. Our fiscal policy is roughly on track. We have growth of 2.6 percent, which is in the range of 2 to 3 percent that we have talked about for some time. A net 57,000 more New Zealanders now have jobs than 2 years ago and household savings are continuing to rise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ac2073f319491384147b72932d5182\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received on the impact of the current global economic situation and its likely impact on New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885b7f8d545b42eca2915fe3a40634eb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In recent weeks there have been a number of forecasts relevant to the global economy that have been more subdued than earlier on in the year. The forecasts indicate that Europe and emerging economies, in particular, are likely to grow more slowly than expected. We have yet to see how that impact will flow through to New Zealand. Treasury is going into another forecasting round for the half-year update that will be released in December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e96cbbcc29b48c58a628d8b2b783427\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received on alternative policy approaches that would leave New Zealanders worse off, pushing up their cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022088c534aa43f4a05a71295f7b4de4a39\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have been surprised at reports that political parties that have been advocating in the past that the cost of living was rising too rapidly are advocating, essentially, that the Reserve Bank should start printing money now. Of course, that would have the effect of driving up the cost of living further, particularly for the most vulnerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896bb5ce51fc4b16bf77554ce2898f3c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen the 2010 IMF report entitled Rethinking Macroeconomic Policy, which finds that \u201CCentral banks in small open economies\u201D\u2014like New Zealand\u2014\u201Cshould openly recognize that exchange rate stability is part of their objective function.\u201D, not just inflation targeting; and does he agree with the IMF that the New Zealand dollar is overvalued by about 15 percent, which is damaging the export sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022043fa9dd2a414859a0a91ce202f043b5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen the report, and the Government has said a number of times that the level of the exchange rate is providing quite a strong headwind for the rebalancing of the New Zealand economy. However, one cannot really argue about stability. In fact, one of the issues of the exchange rate is that it has been relatively high now for 4 or 5 years. It is to the credit of our exporters that they have been sufficiently resilient to be able to grow export volume and value in any case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002248874eb1429c48d089014a0657dafd8f\u0022\u003ESocial Development, Ministry\u2014Security of Private Information\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022494c0db09fd14d30bbae6c12e89b1193\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022494c0db09fd14d30bbae6c12e89b1193\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: Has the Ministry of Social Development competently managed the private information in its charge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002262976de8b2734bcb83f09ceeea5b307e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262976de8b2734bcb83f09ceeea5b307e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the Work and Income kiosks, I would have to say no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8d1d87e10244a0bb9cb24f91b935f9\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she not know about the vulnerabilities raised by an IT company a year ago when according to a letter from her to Bill English in 2009 the roll-out of the kiosks would be monitored by both her and her chief executive closely?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022133e1a642dc14c88a4e6d976328cc31e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is very operational. It was the IT division within the Ministry of Social Development that did it, and it was an operational issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229681f7dca5454ebebf417e076512d8cb\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How can the public have any faith in her plans to establish a database of vulnerable children, even if it takes a year to roll out, given that the latest failure was developed internally, tested externally, and supposedly monitored by her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fec4e801de040a7b6cc038c21633762\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The member can keep saying that but it is factually not true, in the end. It is an operational matter as far as the security of the systems, and that is where it lies. The vulnerable kids information system is going to be a very, very different system. Firstly, it is password protected, so only certain people have access to it, but I do admit that it needs absolutely the right checks and balances in place. I will have the right experts within the ministry, but equally externally from the ministry, going through and making sure that we get that right before we put anything out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8882a12caf94a3bac3c6a04ec812f0a\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor\u003C/span\u003E: Will the security and integrity of all Ministry of Social Development databases now be checked, and by when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0c8bfbe0d14cf88d705f674cbddb46\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The chief executive has got Deloitte doing an independent review. We are doing it in two phases. The first phase will be on the immediate problem with the kiosks, what has gone wrong there, why, what should have been done differently, and what we need to do immediately to fix it. We estimate that that should take about 2 weeks. The wider issue of the systems within the ministry will also be done by Deloitte, but I do not have an absolute time on that yet until it has done the original scoping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d263bc12d7437a9ed5e594726e3cfa\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter from the Minister to Bill English on the automation of front-line services where she says she will be monitoring the progress of these plans regularly with the ministry chief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa092b075b96498aac4acb03f5afa88c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? [Interruption] Order! There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235188cb618c246b195c2895b9f9b6f91\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: When did she first learn the name of who had identified the vulnerabilities in her department\u2019s system, and did she consider this relevant information and in the public interest to know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a5fad03a264aa1b2f6d22ed7901f8e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: To the first part of the question, I was informed on Wednesday afternoon last week, and at that point, no, I did not feel like it needed to be made public. We were not sure on the veracity around it. The ministry itself had started doing checks of systems but was obviously looking in the wrong place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e81654370b14fa78a175a2ba70c4422\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Why did her ministerial adviser access the LinkedIn profile of Ira Bailey on Thursday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226804c05b3abc4fc3ac1656f7d6ff6e8f\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, it was on Wednesday, and it is quite common for someone to google a name when it comes up as a person who might be looking at the systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4555e54afce4af0b86caa668817ac7a\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Can she assure the House that neither she nor her office leaked the name of the person who originally uncovered this serious breach of privacy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db364486d1b442b3a54977827ce23149\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I have answered that before, but I am happy to do it again for the member. Well, certainly I did not, and to the best of my knowledge no one in my office did. There is a wide range of people who knew that, and if the member thinks that this is the biggest issue of the day, I say we have much more serious things to consider than a side issue like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a73ae3864b04cdb9693e633c7c74e22\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 5, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga. [Interruption] Order! I say to the Minister I have called her colleague. [Interruption] Order! I have called the member\u2019s colleague and I expect a little courtesy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221709dc6700d44fa9abbb2835c6374b7b\u0022\u003EChild Abuse and Neglect\u2014Focus of White Paper for Vulnerable Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7a96e80ba6b498ea9589e5d1c97b60f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7a96e80ba6b498ea9589e5d1c97b60f\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: What children will the White Paper for Vulnerable Children be targeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9e375433df24957b7756ba1d3b96b5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9e375433df24957b7756ba1d3b96b5c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry, Mr Speaker. I was a little focused on being called a liar by the member over there. Right, this paper is focused on this country\u2019s most vulnerable children: those who have been and are at most risk of being seriously maltreated. This paper does not undermine the importance of ensuring universal support to children, but unless we put a clear focus on these most vulnerable children, things will not change for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31ecf544964464f8ece3c436c891939\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What have the trends\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215ed873f434d41e3b9f18bf1e9e0d2f9\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister for Social Development just made a very unparliamentary remark across the House and I ask that she withdraw and apologise for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc0767455b95482cb5bbb6b66889e581\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I actually heard what the Minister said. I do not want to repeat what she said, but she did not actually accuse anyone of lying. She made a comment, a quote from past time that is probably even on the record of this Parliament already, and I am not about to rule those words out. But members should not\u2014[Interruption] Order! Members should not take that as a being a precedent to call other members liars. [Interruption] Order! Before I call the member, I ask the House just to settle down a little, because members may recollect that the thing that caused the Minister to get a little offended in the previous question was that she perceived she had been accused across the House of exactly that. That is why I just ask the House to come back to a little more order. I know it has been a tense time. I understand that; I respect that. It is the House\u2019s right to be tense at times and to take issues very seriously. That is absolutely the prerogative of the House, but I think it is time now for a little more reasonableness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e75d986651c4108a459fb57a5058ecc\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What have the trends in child abuse and neglect been since 2004?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b71b6890cf467ca1ef4b447320024c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Notifications have increased considerably and continue to do so. Those notifications that require further action have also continued to increase. For as much as it can, actually, that is good news. It means that people are actually reporting and we are able to do something about it. It means that we are following up with those children who are potentially being maltreated. However, Child, Youth and Family has reported a 4 percent drop in substantiated findings, and that is the first time we have seen a decrease since 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022533c3c781e5444079070d7abb3d34d47\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor\u003C/span\u003E: How can the public have confidence that information stored in the proposed vulnerable children information system will be secure, given the recent security breaches by other departments such as Work and Income, ACC, and the Inland Revenue Department?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a3cfd029cd44a93900c42b15ddb514e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: For a number of reasons. One is the time it will take to build it. The second reason I would give the member is that, actually, the mistakes that have happened and that have come out most recently will certainly be putting a spotlight on this, and the pressure to get it absolutely 100 percent correct is well and truly on me. I know that, and I will be following it with every level of detail. The other thing is that we will be getting expert advice from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and we have asked some of those with ethics backgrounds to be involved in it as well. So we will work our way through quite a systematic process to make sure we get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267d2ba8906e14ae8b06a1a0ac6ae7f9b\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives in the white paper will make a difference for our most vulnerable children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e04a3d4edc49ef9be8038b049b4065\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Particularly around those children who are currently in the care of the chief executive and are currently, or have been, quite seriously abused and neglected, there are a range of initiatives that we are going to do for them\u2014for example, expand the number of specialist-trained caregivers for high-needs and high-risk teenagers; review the paid parental leave provisions to ensure that the provisions applying to adoptive parents, and those taking foster children in, also work for families who give children a home for life; and extend parent-child interaction therapy, which is being trialled in Child, Youth and Family and is proving to be very successful, particularly in dealing with those children with high and complex needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c781a2a10c9f45d9b9dfd5da47935b62\u0022\u003ESchools, Canterbury\u2014Criteria for Proposed Closures and Mergers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff08c9dd77d44ee4a09d0c3d983a04e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff08c9dd77d44ee4a09d0c3d983a04e9\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What specific criteria were used to determine whether a school in Christchurch was identified for restoration, consolidation or rejuvenation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u002232d2627dc01a492b9ce50aac305fdd64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232d2627dc01a492b9ce50aac305fdd64\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. The criteria for clusters were restore, mainly low-level change; consolidate, moderate-level change; and rejuvenate, major change across the cluster. However, it is important to note that those categories describe learning community clusters, and not individual schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295a4670c746943c7b6be959df492e082\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister\u2019s answer has given me an explanation of what each of the categories are. I have asked for what the criteria were in order to put schools within those categories.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4b519256cd44798ba29bc27d8270b1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member has got a legitimate grievance because the member actually asked what specific criteria were used to determine whether a school was identified for restoration, consolidation, or rejuvenation. The Minister, in answering, gave criteria for clusters. If she could clarify for the House whether that applies to individual schools, that would be helpful because that is what the question asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f704ba5edb9d4f698ef6a07ca57eca5f\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Those identifications\u2014restore, consolidate, and rejuvenate\u2014relate to learning community clusters, for which I have given you the criteria. They do not relate to individual schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268994be58aa047b2b1e2a8053bc9f5fd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022409c35cb68724a21b02c47b34a42eddb\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Schools were specifically listed in her proposal under one of those headings, and I have asked the criteria on which they were listed under those headings. That is a primary question, and it is not an unreasonable question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022233dc7eb59cc4b94be15a8fdc1c98487\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept absolutely that it is not an unreasonable question, and that is why I sought clarification from the Minister. What the Minister seems to be pointing out to the House is that those three classifications\u2014restoration, consolidation, or rejuvenation\u2014did not actually apply to individual schools. As to what the Minister has told the House, I have got to take the Minister\u2019s answer at face value. I cannot second-guess that. The Minister has given an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3688151f435461dbdd3707c875faae3\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to my colleague. The member asked for the criteria, and whether or not they were applied to a school or a cluster, I am not sure that any criteria were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229874b5e0349645f99c571e780c52cacc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister did. The Minister in answering the question, if I heard her correctly, went through the three categories\u2014restoration, what applied to that; consolidation, what applied to that; and, rejuvenation, what criteria applied to that. She went through each one. Admittedly she made it clear those did not apply to individual schools, and that is why I think there are some grounds for concern here. But just because the question asked that information does not mean to say the question was right in assuming that those categories applied to each school. The Minister is telling us that they do not, and I have got to take the Minister\u2019s word at that. The member may dig further, because it seems the member may have information that disputes that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255fe22293fa74d3a9d35a5dd6097652c\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What specific criteria were used to identify whether a specific school was proposed for a merger or a closure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a824b057d0bb4b31a14d19da633a8fff\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could the member repeat the supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d21eceec5343d1bc03d59a1f6d05c5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022906c282ba6e84d2ba75622b49c8c0ce1\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I will try. What specific criteria were used to identify whether a specific school, an individual school, was proposed for a closure or a merger?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421d9f0d56e54595aa67209a83dbab1b\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The primary question actually refers quite specifically to the identification of restoration, consolidation, and rejuvenation, and I have answered what the criteria were for that and I have made it clear that they did not apply to individual schools. We are now on quite a completely different question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ee4b5f49e834c1b8c660f5cc5f14c4c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If I am going to help members on this matter, they should be a little silent. I think it is not unreasonable\u2014the primary question asked what specific criteria were used to determine whether a school in Christchurch was identified for restoration, consolidation, or rejuvenation. The Minister in answering that question pointed out those three categories applied to clusters of schools, so the member has not unreasonably now dug further into that answer and asked then what criteria were used to identify schools for, I think his language was, merger, which is similar to consolidation, or closure, which is highly relevant to some schools in Christchurch. That is not an unreasonable supplementary question, and I am ruling that it is not an unreasonable supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834c56ba0213444a90d4a82e87e5e01a\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: There are 215 schools captured by the education renewal plan; 37 have specific proposals. However, all 215 are distributed across the three clusters, and each of them has different and specific criteria that relate to each of them. That is what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229706fb0834424e7981e5c5b63af8f282\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: What are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225282437677c54d669a14605a5de21e21\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: For the 215 schools, each of them has a different status. For the proposals for the 37, the criteria relate to low, moderate, or high-level impact of the earthquake, to weathertightness integrity, to functionality of buildings, to rolls falling or growing, and to movement of population from one area to another. Those are some of the criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b2085783d94beebc61a69e94bb1d4f\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Were the assessment of earthquake damage and the likely cost of repair for each of the schools proposed for merger or closure based on a physical inspection of each site and building; if so, who conducted that assessment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f1b7f72d084e998461d3f28ccff255\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The assessments were made in a range of ways. Some of them involved physical assessment by independently contracted engineers. Some of them involved book assessments. Some of them involved use of the property management information database from the schools themselves, and some of them involved permutations of all three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246d56cc426fb47c2818ba572e3694ffe\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Was the change in demographics taken into account when developing the criteria?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c81aae25337486c9a33c56eeaa275db\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is a people-related issue. Prior to the earthquake in 2010 there were 5,000 surplus places in the Greater Christchurch schools. The latest July roll data show that 4,300 children have left the area as a result of the earthquakes. So, obviously, those 9,300 empty places were one factor that had to be taken into account. In addition, a number of families that have stayed in Christchurch have moved, which has also impacted on school rolls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a344588c6ac4a909099fa20fe2dcff8\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was a physical assessment of the earthquake damage done on each of the schools that she proposed for merger or closure before she proposed that; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220525c9f615034949a26f0db14f9fa4aa\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the specific range of assessments that were used for each of the schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc71c8a55c5e4a2ca25181c77bad3ecd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Tracy Watkins [Interruption]\u2014Tracey Martin. I beg your pardon. My goodness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a501e051f5a7485db88ed93704e5289c\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c9d08b432c478ab79b014e129628a9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a87282f30d4d059969db3c3de03428\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022535b17ece1024baaaef968171b991171\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6db082ab40b4b65aef73ad383410117\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister assure the House that parental elections for boards of trustees will be held within 6 months of any consolidation or merger of schools in Christchurch as per the requirements of the Education Act 1989?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022404d909185084bbeb55e522ac3583d18\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: We are currently in consultation with all of the schools that are affected in Christchurch. It is my expectation, if we get through the process in the time that has been outlined, that that will be the case. However, there is some flexibility in the time line depending on the consultation needs of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dcb803bf39d4ee2ab3b7f842e6a6872\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise. Perhaps I missed it. I understand the time line around mergers might not be quite clear at the moment, but my question was whether the elections for boards of trustees would be held within 6 months of any consolidation or merger as per the Education Act 1989.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285e385c69df1433a9ae42169980205fe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the Minister to actually answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d9418b058b465bad402584fef40a9c\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc7694706404aa6aadb9083498d4d89\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did she review all of the information prepared by the Ministry of Education on the likely or estimated cost of repairing schools that she was intending to propose for merger or closure, before she made the decision to propose those schools for merger or closure; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ef73157dc334a3592f6250a73a3d2eb\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002212f10eed47e34e5183f3989bba510047\u0022\u003EGovernment Communications Security Bureau\u2014Taping of Prime Minister and Results of Audit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00224af744fffc1948feb44dc91a1c586b64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af744fffc1948feb44dc91a1c586b64\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for the GCSB: What were the dates of the three cases that the Government Communications Security Bureau audit highlighted, because they could not assure him \u201Cthat the legal position is totally clear\u201D, as referred to in his statement of 3 October 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b32b7037c5394a2480349aaa47300695\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b32b7037c5394a2480349aaa47300695\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Minister responsible for the GCSB):\u003C/span\u003E I do not believe it is in the public interest to release the dates of these cases, which have been referred to the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security for review. It is not yet clear whether there is an issue of illegality with the cases, and I encourage the members not to jump to conclusions until the status of the cases is clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9b7adb0acd4166a976704f69df95c0\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that when illegal spying on Kim Dotcom came to light, the Minister stated that Sir Jerry Mateparae was not in charge of the Government Communications Security Bureau while it went on, yet now, by not naming the dates, he is refusing to identify who was in charge of the Government Communications Security Bureau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dcd7bf0c9ef4448b70f44a29d27826a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: In the case of the decision made by the Government Communications Security Bureau that the particular surveillance on Kim Dotcom was illegal, that was a known fact at that point, so it became important, I thought, to clarify that matter. In these other cases, it is far from certain whether there is an issue or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b3ce2c48af04e458a0109905987266c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Prime Minister, by failing to answer this question, has thrown a question mark over the Governor-General\u2019s role at the Government Communications Security Bureau, and that this now means that this scandal has dragged in the Prime Minister and several Ministers, including the Minister of Police, is that not another reason for an independent inquiry to clear up the mess under his watch, and also to clear Sir Jerry\u2019s name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c26b779360f4642a36e82b109c62e97\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d87f78e4849d4cffb272e5751d8741e3\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that a camera capable of taking audiovisual material was on a tripod in the staff cafeteria at the Government Communications Security Bureau when he spoke to staff on 29 February?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022082c4d3e6ecc456aa5fd63351ad00c73\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm it but I am advised that there was a camera there. There could certainly be a camera capable of taking a video\u2014absolutely right. So let us go through that for the purposes of ensuring that his leader really hangs himself\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e4d887480824cf29ce38ad9b6d59ebf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c07b86d1762949fb974913755dc5c10f\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a straight question and the Prime Minister answered it by confirming that. That was good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f58c4f8ccfd4cf390222e9940b06074\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a1a126afea422da161066a06211445\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the Rt Hon Prime Minister first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8ec7d0129cf4cf4935fd0c6fc43d41b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have not finished my answer. There is a very specific and clear and non-political point I need to make to finish my answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6c55d3bcc5473bbb36aafa08607ae0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Prime Minister should have the opportunity to do that to put an answer in context, but that should not involve attacking another party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229465e85a71d4473093bba3a7dfee8094\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: When allegations were made by the Leader of the Opposition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a64d7d4b4f4391a6afc477853a3ea8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223948ca9eada04ec78c9ba16076a79b42\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that there was a tape\u2014no, I am just running through the details\u2014taken by the people of the Government Communications Security Bureau, and I have referred to the quotes earlier, and he then went on to say that tape had been erased, I took those allegations very seriously. I went to the head of the Government Communications Security Bureau. He firstly went through the use of the tape. It was used on 21 February and then not used again until April. The bureau then went to every camera operator that it has, including some who are currently posted overseas, and confirmed that they did not take any audiovisual or video of me. Thirdly, we went through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ce90e6d4ae4665b90596ceaf3c6897\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723c6c7187414b51a0f4df027014783e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d838cd25054c89894951d83ad81579\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I asked a specific question to confirm the specific fact, and the Prime Minister has done that. He has now gone well beyond that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe4924660e4f4c4eaa1dc05f3d8e785c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think, in\u2014[Interruption] Order! I am on my feet. I think, in fairness\u2014I accept absolutely that it was a very specific question, but were the Prime Minister to answer it just like, for example, as I understand it, \u201CYes.\u201D, he could be creating an impression that a live camera was operating at the time. I do not think it is unreasonable for the Minister\u2014in this case, the Prime Minister\u2014answering a question to have the chance to, in answering the question, give further information as to whether or not there was any chance that the camera was actually operational at the time. I do not think that is unreasonable, because if we are genuinely interested in the real facts and the truth, that cannot be wrong. What would be wrong would be to restrict the Minister\u2019s answer in a way that implied something else. That is why I will not allow the Prime Minister to attack the Leader of the Opposition, but if he gives information around that camera I see nothing wrong with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246881a2b6a7d46a5bd53d5dfb78309d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Just to recap, a situation was taken where we looked at the logs of when the camera was used. We then looked at the situation about speaking to every one of the camera operators to ask them whether they ever used the camera. They had not. The head of the Government Communications Security Bureau then went on to look at all of the logs about whether there was any deletion of any audio material. There was not. To satisfy himself\u2014and let us understand this: this is a spy agency; we do not delete things; we archive them\u2014they went right back to the ultimate source document and asked themselves that question: has there ever been a deletion? The answer was no. There was no tape taken by the Government Communications Security Bureau. The Leader of the Opposition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276dcd20cba1d45b6b847c5f34150ec30\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, I think\u2014[Interruption] Order! It was perfectly reasonable for the Prime Minister to be able to put that answer in context, but he should not go on now to criticise the Leader of the Opposition. Question\u2014[Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b3359e504244965b7ff17883fdd1af4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00220f1cf1b59e9149e3b1f7fb59214031eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f1cf1b59e9149e3b1f7fb59214031eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We come now, because the Rt Hon Winston Peters is not here for question No. 8, to question No. 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed8ec26bde8d4a68864edd3b3f599a6e\u0022\u003EEarthquake, Christchurch\u2014Review of Civil Defence Emergency Management Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002243368dc6ed524cedb4e706d7b10aadda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243368dc6ed524cedb4e706d7b10aadda\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Civil Defence: Why did he reject the independent Civil Defence Emergency Management earthquake review\u2019s recommendation, which was made in response to the finding that duplication of control was \u201Cnot only inefficient but put people and property at risk\u201D, and that \u201Cthe same situation could arise in a number of different parts of New Zealand\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00228af83598c96b44908344e37baaac51f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228af83598c96b44908344e37baaac51f5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN (Minister of Civil Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Just so that we are clear about the recommendation, the recommendation was that civil defence emergency management groups, not territorial local authorities, should lead and control the response to emergencies. To specifically answer the member\u2019s question and give the reasons for rejecting the recommendation, firstly, it was that most emergencies are short term in this country, and they are localised and best controlled at a local level. Secondly, civil defence emergency management group controllers already have the legal power to control the response to local emergencies if necessary. Thirdly, the ministry has already commenced a capability assessment framework to focus on improving leadership and governance not only in Christchurch but across the nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b8978448f14bc3a91188e4209f7664\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Did he factor into his decision the fact that the Wellington regional territorial authorities have adopted precisely the model recommended by the independent review on the basis that \u201Cdisasters don\u2019t abide by territorial boundaries \u2026\u201D, and that \u201CA shared approach to emergency management will enable our communities to be better prepared and will provide an ability to share resources to best effect.\u201D; if so, what does he know that they do not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edb0e11780754cab9ef83c569869dd47\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: That is an excellent question. In fact, the response by the Wellington civil defence regional group was, as part of the capability assessment framework, the recommendations that came from that framework assessment as well. Christchurch is a part of that, and there were recommendations on that point to the Christchurch group as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a2eb1d71bb42fdbe932da8ceab81c1\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: When did his ministry first become aware of the situational and local political factors between Christchurch City and the Canterbury civil defence emergency management group given that they had been through the same analysis that Wellington had been through prior to the 2010 earthquake, and what steps were taken to address these before people and property were put at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f34f95aeb664b48a6156e9b0767a80e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Pre-empting that particular question I looked for specific dates. The capability review process was commenced in early 2010\u2014that was before the first earthquake\u2014it was finished in August 2010, and I understand that it was given to the chair of the group on or about 3 September, a day or so before the earthquake. So they were aware of it, but they did not really have any opportunity to introduce the recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a447351b348643789852197002dd89e6\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was specifically when did his ministry first become aware? It was not a question about the local group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270daeab89dff444f9c6cbff2d4e42085\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister did actually indicate that date. If I remember correctly he said some date in August.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022955a627c359e49898a7d41307f2eb18c\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What positive aspects of the response were highlighted by the civil defence review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfaddec7e10d4f46bbd7795f75eb6860\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The report concludes that police, fire, ambulance, defence, civil defence, health services, and lifelines maintained control, rescued the injured, and kept the public safe. The courageous efforts of emergency services and volunteer groups were commended by the reviewers. The earthquake was an unprecedented challenge, but overall the report concludes that the emergency response worked very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5a8c9d63c3647d7a2f34a9cc727ff73\u0022\u003EWar Pensions, Law Commission Report\u2014Government Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5fbeb1ad1d949ce9d3cf1d82c24d8ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5fbeb1ad1d949ce9d3cf1d82c24d8ff\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs: What is the Government doing to improve the support and recognition given to veterans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022455f90a3ca12458185e9472767caf321\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022455f90a3ca12458185e9472767caf321\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday the Prime Minister announced the Government\u2019s response to the Law Commission\u2019s review of the War Pensions Act 1954. The package adopts in full or in part 132 of the 170 recommendations and provides new funding of $60 million over the next 5 years to implement these changes. The major changes include new and updated legislation, replacing the War Pensions Act 1954 with the introduction of two coverage schemes; an increase of 5 percent plus the annual CPI adjustment, forecast to be around 1.8 percent, bringing the increase close to 7 percent, which would occur from 1 April next year, for the war disablement and surviving spouse pensions; increased eligibility for support services such as home help and lawnmowing; and also new veterans weekly income compensation for veterans under the age of retirement and unable to work. I am proud of this very comprehensive package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022358940fa7840465ea968f851b886b27c\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: When will these changes take effect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225011cfb0e5ba478aa4b4064608956d88\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: The 5 percent increase, including the annual CPI adjustment to the war disablement and surviving spouse pensions, will take effect from 1 April 2013. The bill to enact the other changes is currently being drafted and will be introduced to Parliament as soon as practicable. We will listen carefully to veterans and other members of the public through the select committee process. Our aim is for most of the changes to begin from 1 July 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262810a25cb594f6991093b4a0ef0ca13\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: As the Government has announced that it will adopt 132 of 170 recommendations of the Law Commission review of the War Pensions Act 1954, what do the other 38 recommendations encompass, and what is the ongoing status and future of those remaining 38 recommendations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846cb5915f6246c3b7677853ac7aae02\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want the Minister to speak too long in answering that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225120b7238fa6401589929bbdbf6968bb\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to go through those in some detail. The member is coming into my office this week; I think that would be the appropriate time to have that discussion. But, in essence, Cabinet made a very good decision to support veterans, who have done an amazing amount of service for New Zealand. We are very mindful of the fact that the Law Commission took 3 years to draw up 170 recommendations that were uncosted. Of course, 12 Government departments had to work through that process of doing the robust costings. I took the proposals through to Cabinet and I believe we have ended up at the right place in supporting veterans into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c807662fe643d5ad5e177d4e8e2457\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We do not need to have the full details, but even a brief overview\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff3ff06aed1442f8963fb15b36699165\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the member\u2019s point. He asked what the 38 recommendations were that were not picked up by the Government. I did not want the Minister to go through all 38, but some flavour of some example might have been helpful to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f0430f73b044b698c74f44d28966596\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: One that was, unfortunately, not included was an increase in the funeral grant. Currently veterans do get a funeral grant but it is less than ACC recipients currently get. Cabinet also made a decision about one of the recommendations, which was free medical care for those over 80. In essence, Cabinet decided that we should be supporting veterans in need, not in particular to their age. That gives you a flavour of some of the examples that we could not fund. I think the important thing is, in very tight economic times, that this is a very good package of $60 million supporting veterans now and into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c7745ced9b2412ea430a514d5f4cc0b\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Minister ensure improved outcomes for veterans, when many of those affected state that Veterans Affairs New Zealand, otherwise known as VANZ, continues at times to provide inconsistent advice and responses that are often illogical, poorly timed, abusive, offensive, and lacking any duty of care to the veterans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022644569ba69cc47be9dbd00f0448acf5e\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not agree with those assertions. It was interesting that when this Government came in at the end of 2008 there was a backlog of 11,820 claims waiting to be considered. That is an embarrassment. They had been waiting for 6 months. Veterans Affairs, under a decent Government regime, has turned that round and now we do not have a backlog of claims. The member should stand up and applaud the direction of this Government to ensure that we are supporting veterans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022072aef11c2a74d5db531719fd6e8c630\u0022\u003EHon John Banks\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002267f3c1b4db87496b9589164a12219b2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267f3c1b4db87496b9589164a12219b2e\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he have confidence in Hon John Banks; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002248bdcfd53b814ed48f43735ce9a7262f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248bdcfd53b814ed48f43735ce9a7262f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; because he is a hard-working Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a522f6b50b34061af95a61bbdd96b4a\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it still his policy, as he told media on 30 April this year, that a Minister who lies or misleads about his actions would lose his confidence as Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b268c8be6a942ed92e00ed247000c33\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022566390ef804e47ddac1e8a5d37fa390f\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think Mr Banks has met this standard, after he told the New Zealand Herald on 14 September that the police were responsible for his witness statement being withheld when, in fact, it was he who asked for it to be withheld?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb96bbb5d0884233b81513a3fdca8400\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have no knowledge of that. That is a matter for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138c0a27dc2a467ea036ba168b58b26b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a letter from David P H Jones QC, Mr Banks\u2019 lawyer, to the New Zealand Police, dated 10 August 2012, which says that disclosure of any material relating to Mr Banks is opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022737d0559e60b45b4a47a0288087cab68\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245a5b40845e84fc192350704a1a50ad8\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he hanging on to John Banks as a Minister, when sworn witness statements of others, and Mr Banks\u2019 own actions, show that he has lied to New Zealanders, or is the Prime Minister simply prepared to put his own political interests ahead of the high ethical standards New Zealanders expect of Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd523a3d33464eb2a0d8df0e57da10b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because I accept the member\u2019s word that he has complied with the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e187257b8ff451fb3d5fbe128ffaaf3\u0022\u003EEarthquake Commission Review\u2014Objective and Focus\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00224f718937bfee408da9a3444524422556\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f718937bfee408da9a3444524422556\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for the Earthquake Commission: What is the objective of the Government review of the EQC?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224d39bb88c2944966b2917afd2d62e6f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d39bb88c2944966b2917afd2d62e6f3\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister responsible for the Earthquake Commission):\u003C/span\u003E Recently the Minister of Finance and I announced a review, with the objectives of learning the lessons from the Canterbury earthquakes for New Zealand disaster insurance arrangements. The Canterbury earthquakes have generated 698,215 exposures for the Earthquake Commission, and this has proved to be the biggest test of the current legislation since it came into operation in 1993. The commission has been an important part of the Government\u2019s overall management of disaster risk and recovery in New Zealand, and the review will ensure that the legislation provides the best possible protection for New Zealanders\u2019 homes in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd5c942772d45ac98453f3ce71b5109\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: What will the review focus on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feef959233804be2ab7aaa203cbb64f0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The review will focus on what types of property the Earthquake Commission insures, including structures that are built and the extent of Earthquake Commission cover for land; how the Earthquake Commission prices its insurance; the institutional structure and design of the Earthquake Commission itself, including its roles; and the financial management of the Crown\u2019s risk and its exposure and how that should be financed moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1fe2a4425c942d58cc1a17da6b820d0\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a74f707150f8433f989ac25ab55262ca\u0022\u003EIncome Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill\u2014Purpose\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022407284a7f5ce46e595eeb46d622a7276\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill: What is the purpose of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022835bc02612ac4bafb95b00bcbca2a0b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835bc02612ac4bafb95b00bcbca2a0b1\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose of the bill is to transform the in-work tax credit into a child payment for the poorest New Zealanders and their children. The payment will apply to New Zealand families whose incomes fall below a certain threshold, whether they are in work or receiving a student allowance, a benefit, or New Zealand superannuation, and will assist in bringing 100,000 New Zealand children out of the severe poverty that they currently suffer. Every child is entitled to a good life and a fair future, and my bill will make sure the poorest kids get that same opportunity to enjoy those rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260c11c517c0d44bb99765eb0edca3ac5\u0022\u003EHolly Walker\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement that the bill will give rich families even more money; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4f41ac1f3e549efa1991346b8ec57e9\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Prime Minister is wrong. The payment will be available to the poorest New Zealand families, not the richest, as my bill ensures that the means test will stay in place. My bill is a step towards a universal child payment, as recommended by the report of the Children\u2019s Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022414a222cc6844fd59d55caf7e645bb1e\u0022\u003EIncome Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill\u2014Effect on Child Poverty\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb6ece89ed8848b584e4f1ed5fd48396\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill: Does the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill attempt to fix discrimination in the current Working for Families tax credit scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbfab42e3e8448478ee5679a1b93f52d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbfab42e3e8448478ee5679a1b93f52d\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, it does. The Human Rights Commission has found that the current in-work tax credit discriminates against the poorest families on the basis of income source. That is because poor families on benefits, student allowances, or superannuation do not receive the payment, but those who work a minimum of 20 hours do. That is discrimination under New Zealand law on the basis of employment status.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f561252b91d043a0a0ce111a06216513\u0022\u003EHolly Walker\u003C/span\u003E: Is this discrimination acceptable, given that 270,000 children in New Zealand live in severe poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788f5c2b47544e889c8242f48b37a728\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not acceptable, and New Zealanders do not believe it is acceptable, either. Any policy that leaves 270,000 Kiwi children in severe poverty\u2014the highest number that New Zealand has seen since the early 1990s\u2014is deeply unjust. The Child Poverty Action Group is appealing a recent decision of the High Court in this matter, and I hope the appeal is successful, as no child should be discriminated against in New Zealand law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002208aa66433b394eedb4c43bd4b0695ad6\u0022\u003EIncome Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill\u2014Effect on Child Poverty\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a24ee5df396646b08e0acc7fe96c62eb\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill: What reports has she seen relating to reform of the In-work Tax Credit through the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill as a measure to address child poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00229962530617524f93ab5207f793197cc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229962530617524f93ab5207f793197cc5\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill):\u003C/span\u003E The recent report of the Expert Advisory Group on Solutions to Child Poverty for the Children\u2019s Commissioner notes that my bill is before Parliament, and welcomes the opportunity for a debate on child-related benefits. I also note that working paper No. 10 accompanying that report recommends that the hours worked test in the in-work tax credit regime be removed. My bill does as that working paper suggests. I have also read reports by Professor Susan St John of Auckland University, who says that my bill \u201Cprovides a practical and just way to make an immediate difference to New Zealand\u2019s disgraceful child poverty problem.\u201D, and that \u201CThere are many \u2026 ways to make work pay that don\u2019t involve punishing the poorest children.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022304cda9ea731489981af404f5312ec2b\u0022\u003EHolly Walker\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has she seen about the impact of the in-work tax credit on poverty rates overall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237da41807c19424d8a983a122c6644f8\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I have read Government reports stating that the in-work tax credit has been responsible for halving poverty among children whose parents meet the work hours requirement\u2014halving it to just 8 percent. These same reports reveal that poverty among the children of beneficiaries has remained unaffected at 70 percent. My bill would give those children the opportunity to have a good life and a better, fairer future, which the children of working parents have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af65c10338f0427588f1e92fa784f871\u0022\u003EIncome Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill\u2014Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d5227a411794b9c9e65e50f98dbc331\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill: Has she received any advice on other parties\u2019 support for the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb1dab13406b43ab9a3b24466d6e8c3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb1dab13406b43ab9a3b24466d6e8c3a\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Member in charge of the Income Tax (Universalisation of In-work Tax Credit) Amendment Bill):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party, New Zealand First, and the Mana party are all supporting the bill. Labour has agreed to support it at its first reading. I want to thank those parties for their support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224721060cdd674d7593a117139302b90b\u0022\u003EHolly Walker\u003C/span\u003E: Is that sufficient support for the bill to pass?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b40b517ac84337be7fb53e84746fc5\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately for New Zealand\u2019s poorest children, it is not sufficient. I have asked Peter Dunne to consider various options for supporting the bill, but I am advised by his office that he does not consider that the Government can afford to assist the poorest children in New Zealand. Given that the cost of leaving these kids in poverty is estimated at $6 billion a year, I would have thought that $300 million to $400 million for these poorest kids was an investment\u2014a wise and just investment\u2014in them and their futures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5a9e230ca3242f98463e8cc35268d83\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022509288e55b044b30876b08027dd967e4\u0022\u003ERail, Napier-Gisborne\u2014Decision to Shut Down Line\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4fb2c511701488bb4abad39e61986ce\u0022\u003EGovernment Communications Security Bureau\u2014Briefings and Unlawful Interception of Communications\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d9ea80af59c433ba5bf73347e32c489\u0022\u003EEarthquake, Christchurch\u2014Review of Civil Defence Emergency Management Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022af72fa02693a4c98add8e40505bd88ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af72fa02693a4c98add8e40505bd88ae\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Honourable members, I have received five letters seeking urgent debates under Standing Order 386. The first is from Phil Twyford seeking to debate the mothballing of the KiwiRail line between Napier and Gisborne. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility of the Government. However, the business of the House should not be set aside just because an announcement has been made. There will be other occasions on which this matter can be debated. Members may raise such matters of concern to them during the general debate. That application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe second application is from David Shearer, the Leader of the Opposition, seeking to debate further revelations about the unlawful interception of communications of certain individuals by the Government Communications Security Bureau and the Prime Minister\u2019s knowledge of such events occurring. A proposal to discuss a continuing problem such as this is not one contemplated by Standing Order 386 as a particular case of recent occurrence. Furthermore, the House has recently considered the matter. An urgent debate was held immediately before the adjournment on 27 September. Every subsequent press release on the matter will not necessarily require the immediate attention of the House. That application is therefore also declined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe third application is from the Hon Lianne Dalziel seeking to debate the Government\u2019s decision in response to the recommendations of the independent report commissioned by the Ministry of Civil Defence and Emergency Management entitled Review of the Civil Defence Emergency Management Response to the 22 February Christchurch Earthquake. The release of the Government\u2019s decisions is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility. The test for whether a particular case requires the immediate attention of the House is a high one. The business of the House should not be set aside just because a ministerial announcement has been made, even though it may be important. There must be an element of urgency for the matter to take precedence over other business. A corrective action plan for work programmes over the next 2 years is being developed. I do not think I would be justified in giving priority to this particular issue over other business of the House today. The application is therefore also declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f10e76f543b4520937d7e4e96f59569\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f7ab482e83e4268a2788a054e62fdde\u0022\u003ESocial Development, Ministry\u2014Security of Private Information\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00227b327d515ec647d1a5919df7d6894cbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b327d515ec647d1a5919df7d6894cbc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The fourth and fifth applications are from Jacinda Ardern and Metiria Turei seeking to debate the Government\u2019s failure to protect private information at the Ministry of Social Development. The failure is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. The requirement of recent occurrence refers to when the member became aware of the matter rather than when it actually occurred. Given the need for public confidence in the Government\u2019s handling of sensitive personal information, particularly at this time when, and in an area where, further shared information systems are proposed, I consider the matter important enough to warrant the immediate attention of the House by way of urgent debate. As Jacinda Ardern lodged her application first, I call on Jacinda Ardern to move that the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00225633b27cfc8647af848c3799046e7b73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225633b27cfc8647af848c3799046e7b73\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. Every single New Zealander has a right to feel concerned about this massive breach of privacy that has occurred within the Ministry of Social Development. This is by far the worst breach of privacy that I have seen, not just as a member of Parliament but as a citizen. I would bet that every single member in this House would be severely challenged to find a breach more serious than this one. But there is actually some competition for that title. In recent times we have seen breaches by both ACC and the Inland Revenue Department\u2014serious breaches. In fact, ACC in particular grabbed the headlines for a long period of time, and I expect that this breach will do the same. This time we add the Ministry of Social Development to that list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EUnlike ACC, where specific information was sent to an individual claimant, this breach is different. In this breach any member of the public could have walked, and did walk, into a Work and Income office and accessed a publicly available kiosk to view the personal and private information of some of our most vulnerable New Zealanders. It is utterly astounding that that could happen in this country, but it points to a cavalier approach to privacy and to the protection of information by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe buck has to stop somewhere. It is all well and good for Ministers, time and time again, to stand up and call these issues operational. But the protection of information held by the Government goes to the heart of people\u2019s trust in the State. This cannot be left as an operational matter to public servants. This is a matter very much at the heart of what the Government must be doing and must be held to account for. But we saw today the level of accountability that this Minister wants to take. She was quick to say this was an operational matter, and we will come to whether or not that is a fair claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut, first, let us review the background of what has happened in this incident. Recently, an individual who wished to stay anonymous encountered an issue with Work and Income kiosks. Let us be clear about the vulnerability in the system. This individual did not hack into Work and Income systems. Unlike what the Prime Minister and, at times, the Minister have implied, they did not need to know what they were looking for to find this information. They needed to know only how to use a mouse and click it as little as three times. They literally clicked on \u201Copen file\u201D in Microsoft Office in order to access this vital and key information. Linking a public Work and Income kiosk system to the main database of the Ministry of Social Development is unforgivable in this day and age. Even the most lay of people when it comes to IT issues would understand that that would be a risk and would put vulnerable people at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe individual who discovered that issue contacted the Ministry of Social Development\u2014it took several days for the Ministry of Social Development to respond to the original call\u2014and the main query they had was, like Facebook or Google, whether it gave any kind of remuneration for vulnerability testing of systems. The Ministry of Social Development responded last Wednesday, but in the intervening period Keith Ng, a blogger and an investigative journalist, had been approached by this individual. Keith took a look himself. What he found was devastating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ELet us start at the top. Firstly, there was contractors\u2019 information: full names, hours worked, pay rates, and pay details for all Ministry of Social Development contract workers, including for media trainers\u2014probably coming in handy at this present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESecondly, there were doctor and radiology invoices with full names of candidates for adoption, foster parents, and Limited Service Volunteer candidates\u2014some of our youngest and most vulnerable on Government support. In others, there were invoices from doctors in radiology for X-rays of children in care and protection with their full names and their chief complaint\u2014the cause of their abuse. Some of these were X-rays for injuries and broken limbs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere was debt collection information. The Ministry of Social Development debt collection unit uses Veda Advantage for its debt collection needs, and when it invoices it includes a list of people who owe it money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E But then there are the invoices that relate most specifically to our most vulnerable children. There were phone bills from Telecom for Child, Youth and Family homes and care and protection facilities. Although some of this information may be publicly available, what would of course not be known is who resides there and the phone logs that were made to those addresses. There were pharmacy invoices, including prescriptions, that identified not only children in Child, Youth and Family care but also the medication they are taking, including antidepressants and, in some cases, cancer-related medication. There were legal bills, which in some cases included historical claims against Child, Youth and Family\u2014obviously, in some cases, for abuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe availability of this information is an indictment on this Government and, it has to be said, on this Minister. She may claim, as she has done in the House today, that this was an operational matter, but in 2009 she wrote a letter to Bill English as part of her review finding value for money within her Government department, as all departments did. When she wrote to Bill English she said the following: \u201CWhilst the Ministry has a strong focus on reducing its national office numbers there are also substantial plans to automate frontline services for clients through the use of online and other IT solutions.\u201D\u2014a specific reference to the use of kiosks in Work and Income offices. She went on to say: \u201CI will be monitoring the progress of these plans regularly with the Ministry\u2019s Chief Executive.\u201D Quite clearly, the Minister did not do that. She did not monitor the automation of those services. She did not even follow what the Ministry of Social Development had done in terms of review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EEven the ministry itself undertook external reviews, which found vulnerabilities that this Minister did not even know about. How can she claim that this was an operational matter when she told her own Minister of Finance she would monitor it and, clearly, she did not? She has claimed that it is \u201Cdisturbing\u201D that her department did not act on vulnerabilities that were identified by an IT analysis. I find it disturbing that she did not act. I find it disturbing that she did not know of such a flaw in her own system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut let us come to what was happening within information and communications technology within the ministry generally. Let us be clear. The systems were developed in-house. It was not a contracted activity originally. It was done in-house, by her staff and by her team, and the systems were rolled out in 2010. At almost the same time Treasury was asking Government departments to save $130 million per annum on information and communications technology costs. Something had to give and, quite clearly, it did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere were also contractors involved\u2014this is true. There has been some suggestion that those information and communications technology contractors themselves failed. In fact, the ministry implied that in some of its media conferences yesterday. But now it has retracted and stated that it is not sure, or can no longer be confident, that the ministry even followed up on a report from Dimension Data in April last year, which the ministry paid it $10,000 to complete. It did not even follow up on the flaws that that company identified. Dimension Data raised issues with the Ministry of Social Development. The ministry paid it $10,000 to do that, and then did nothing to follow up the problems it identified. That is an absolute outrage. The fact that this problem could have been prevented and was not is an absolute outrage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt was not just an information and communications technology company paid by the ministry that found this problem. It has also been raised by a beneficiary advocacy group. Over a year ago it raised with the Ministry of Social Development issues with its system. There are two options. Either the ministry did not act on that information or it simply did not know what it was meant to be looking for. Either way, it is an epic fail, and this ministry has shown that it cannot be trusted with the personal, private information of vulnerable individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut there is another matter that the Minister has referred to in the past week that has now been drawn into this debate, and that is the issue of the White Paper for Vulnerable Children. The children affected by this breach will, in most cases, be the very same children the Minister wants to protect through her white paper, which has been totally undermined by this incident. The Minister\u2019s plan hinges on a database of vulnerable children being established and information shared. She herself acknowledges that faith in the system is critical for this database\u2019s success. In the white paper she said: \u201CWhile there is much to gain from better information-sharing about vulnerable children and their families, there are also associated risks, including a possible reluctance to use services if there is a perception that information will be shared,\u201D. We have more than a perception that information will be shared. We have a perception now that information will be severely compromised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EShe went on to point out that a similar system in the UK was dumped in 2010, in part because of concerns about the security of the system. She states that on the basis of this experience there are four key elements required for this system: social\u2014and in that she lists \u201Ctrust within and between agencies\u201D\u2014a legal framework, resources, and, finally, \u201CTechnical\u2014system capability is part of the solution, but trust (that personal information will be shared when necessary and with the right people) should underpin computer system design \u2026\u201D. She herself has identified the very issue that could bring down the key element of her white paper, and it has already happened before she has even started. Two of the four elements that she says are needed no longer exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E It is key that we do something to support and assist young children in this country and to prevent young children in this country from being abused, but the Minister has undermined her own ability to achieve that and must rebuild the faith in her department\u2019s ability to hold and use information appropriately. But can this Minister do it herself with the record she has? Not only was external testing not followed up, and not only were public complaints not followed up, but the culture that she presides over through her own leadership is highly questionable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt was not that long ago that the Privacy Commissioner was directly involved with this Minister over the release of personal details of someone on Government support. She was willing to release someone\u2019s private information in order to deflect from the bigger issue around her leadership of welfare at that time, and she was unrepentant, even saying she would do it again. She has assured the House that she has not given the personal information of the original informant around the vulnerabilities of her system to the media. But we can be utterly forgiven for asking. The Ministry of Social Development advised her office of Ira Bailey\u2019s name on Wednesday. On Thursday the Minister\u2019s own political adviser looked at Ira Bailey\u2019s LinkedIn profile. On Sunday the story broke. On Monday the New Zealand Herald suddenly had the name of that individual, and when so few people knew his identity it is absolutely right that the Opposition asks in order to figure out whether or not the Minister was trying to detract from what is the most pertinent issue here, and that is her ministry\u2019s utter incompetence in dealing with the information of vulnerable New Zealand citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EMembers of the public will make their own judgment as to whether or not this Minister and her department can be trusted with the information of our most vulnerable citizens. But this Opposition will continue to hold that Government to account for what is clearly a systemic issue and a massive, massive failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcaa6a650df04c9e8c74bc8a3564315c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcaa6a650df04c9e8c74bc8a3564315c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E The public deserves to have full confidence that Government systems are robust and secure. We should all be able to trust that any personal information will not be revealed by human or systems error, and that that information should not be accessible by any unauthorised person. From what we have learnt over the past 48 hours it is clear that the Ministry of Social Development has breached that public trust. I cannot and I will not make excuses. An independent review has been called, and that needs to be given its due process so that we have all of the facts on the table. But I want to say to this House and to the public that it is not acceptable. It is being taken very seriously by this Government, by the chief executive, by the extended Government. I have received an apology from the chief executive, and I certainly have passed that on to all of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe members opposite are calling out. I am not sure whether everyone can hear them out there, but I think that while we are going through the independent review I will give them some of the background on the kiosks themselves, and on how long computers have been in Work and Income, and members might want to note that that goes right back to the late 1990s. So I think we had better be careful as to where we jump to conclusions in terms of where some of it has actually been set up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThere has also been a lot of misinformation, and I know that a lot of people out there are worried about what has been accessed. There are few things that I think need to be set in balance. Core systems were not breached, so people\u2019s individual files as such were not accessible for the public or for anyone who was accessing that system. As the member who spoke before me, Jacinda Ardern, identified, though, a high level of personal information was accessed because of the four servers that were attached to the kiosks as such, or the computers there. Of those four, three were inaccessible and they could not get access to the information, I am told to believe, but with one of them, they could. I also want to make it really clear that they could not stand in the Work and Income office and read that information onscreen. What they had to do was download it, as the blogger did, then take it home and convert it into a readable file. So they were not standing in a Work and Income office as such and looking at it\u2014he converted it down, and then had to take it and convert it into a file that was readable. That is the information I have had to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI just want to reiterate\u2014because we have been getting a little bit of that kind of concern, as you can imagine\u2014that at no stage was anyone able to go into the Social Welfare Information for Tomorrow Today (SWIFTT) or Cyras systems, which is where we run Child, Youth and Family. They are quite separate. They are password protected, so only staff can access them, and, actually, the staff have different levels of access to the information within that system, as well. So the blogger was not able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI am extremely disappointed, and I do not think that this is acceptable in any way, shape, or form. I am going to be as upfront and as transparent as possible, and I will put as much information out there as I can as we work our way through this process. I am happy to answer any questions as I can while also having respect for the processes as we go through the independent review. So just bear with me. It came to my attention on Sunday evening that the blogger had contacted a media outlet saying he had managed to get into the Work and Income systems via the kiosks. At that point I was told that all systems were going to be shut down so that there could be no further access to them, so that access was not possible. The first I knew of it being the actual kiosks was at 5.46 on Sunday evening. Then, as more staff worked overnight on the issue, I was formally briefed when I got to Wellington about 10 o\u2019clock on Monday morning. I think the department\u2019s immediate response to this situation was absolutely appropriate. It took the situation very seriously and moved swiftly to contain what is very obviously a serious security flaw. We demanded answers from the department and we got a few, but, I think, not enough to satisfy the public and certainly not enough to satisfy me. That is why the chief executive has called an independent inquiry, which is going to be run by Deloitte. It is important that the investigation got under way immediately, so it has already started. We should see the results of that within 2 weeks, but the further results are going wider into the second phase of what should be this review. It will take more time, and I think we need to do a scoping expedition first to then give the House a real time line on when we will get that back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWhat did come to light last night was that a report was done in April 2011, and from what I have seen of the report it identifies this flaw in the system. What I cannot get answers on, and what I am asking the independent review to look at, is why, how, and when it was acted on\u2014so if it was not acted on, why was it not, and if it was acted on, what has since gone wrong and made the information yet again available. So we are looking backwards, and that will all be investigated. When we discovered that, the chief executive and I wanted to put that out in a statement this morning so that we are quite clear on what we do know and what we do not know. It is been only about 36 hours now, but at that stage it had been only about 24. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI want to give some information about the kiosks themselves, because I do think this is important. What they are effectively, obviously, are computers that people can go into. They predominantly use them to write CVs, to update their CVs, and to job search. So they access the internet and from that they also access Microsoft Word, which is predominantly what they use to do their CVs on. Actually, computers have been available to the public through Work and Income since the late 1990s. The only difference now is that we have put them throughout the offices. Technology has caught up a little bit, and they look different because there is a stand that you stand at. But, actually, if you wanted to use that term, they have been around since the late 1990s. In those early years technology was obviously different, but the computers were more used for typing CVs. Over time Labour when in Government moved them more front of house so they were more easily accessible to the public. Beneficiaries were able to go in and search for jobs. They had been able to do that for years. Some were done in seminars. Most of them were able to go in separately. If you go to different Work and Income offices, you will see that some of them are in a room attached and some of them are in the main body of the building where people also go for benefit advice and income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E This is what happened in July 2010. As I say, the kiosks themselves effectively are a stand that has the computer in it, and the computers have been there for some time. We rented out the kiosks, which would be more front of line, which means that we were having people more self-servicing rather than using up all of the time going to case managers\u2014they could actually access it themselves. In July 2010 they were trialled in six sites and in April the ministry made a business case and made the decision to roll them out. They have rolled out more than 700, I think from memory. So 730 have been rolled out across the country, but that just means we have replaced, in many places, the computers that are there and have put them in the stands of the kiosks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Social Development has around 1,500 servers. What were visible were five of these, and, as I have said, no core systems were compromised, but I do not want to undermine that a totally unacceptable amount of personal information was available from the server that he could access. As I say, that one server very much failed to have the protections that it should have. As a consequence, all the servers are being looked at. We are checking all of our information and we are making sure that we know where it is and what is happening. As I said, we will work our way through a process here. I cannot change what has happened and I cannot look backwards. All I can do is assure the public that I am taking it very seriously and putting the checks and balances in place so that we can make sure that we have people knowing what is happening. I can give assurances that our review will be robust, that it will be transparent, and that there will be a change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI will briefly touch on a couple of things that Ms Ardern raised in her speech. One was about Mr Bailey. The information that I have is that he contacted the ministry on Monday, 8 October and he received an answer within a day and a half, and he got a phone call back. As an aside, there has been this kind of innuendo that she makes that my staff members were looking into him. It would be quite common for someone to google someone whose name came up. In fact he looked at her LinkedIn file as well, so I suppose it is quite a common way of looking at each other\u2019s social media. So perhaps the member could give it a go herself. [Interruption] Exactly, it is hardly the scoop of the day, is it? It is quite interesting that the members over there think that it has been leaked and everything else, where, I think, in fact we need to concentrate on what the issues are that are most important here. That is that people\u2019s personal information was unacceptably contacted. They should not have had access to that level of information and that is the fact. I can see Lianne Dalziel yelling out over\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cca77ebdf764037a8e762ef7e65c1a5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You should offer your resignation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec8f011768445c78350779be81e33dd\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, should we talk about who should give their resignation? That member had to when she lied in unison, which was the actual reality of it, so I suppose she has personal experience of what that means to lie, but I have not. I have been absolutely factual with this House and that is where it sits. I can understand her anger, but she needs to calm down and have a bit of a look in the mirror\u2014have a bit of a look in the mirror\u2014if that is where she wants to look. As I said, I think this is unacceptable. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022199e56d561194d87849876ee51385c55\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14449377541427280485fb1b3a9a66d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to stand up and be counted for it and I think that is reasonable. We will make sure that we are getting to the bottom of this situation and ensure that the public know about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00227e1ec81b42cf4601b59685c4a4a49af0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e1ec81b42cf4601b59685c4a4a49af0\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The revelations of this massive breach of privacy and information and communications technology security failure at the Ministry of Social Development are a very clear indication of both a ministry and a Minister that are prepared to cut corners with scant regard for the privacy of the most vulnerable New Zealanders in this country. We would have thought that all of the Ministers of this National Government learnt the lessons from the debacle that we have seen at ACC, and that they\u2014Paula Bennett, in particular\u2014would call in their chief executive officers and chief information officers and seek assurances from their own people that nothing similar could possibly happen in their departments, and that if there were problems, they would take immediate action to remedy them. Some of those Ministers might have done that, but it is certainly clear that Minister Bennett did not. Minister Bennett learnt nothing from Minister Collins in the ACC breach, from the Inland Revenue Department breaches, nor even from her own disgraceful behaviour in breaching the privacy of two women\u2014two mothers\u2014who just happened to have the gall to disagree with her policy. This is the example that Minister Bennett has set for her ministry. This is not an operational issue; this is a leadership issue. This is a breach far worse than ACC, where human error was a significant factor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI just want to reflect on some of the things the Minister has said today and in her answers to questions. She talked about how the Ministry of Social Development has breached the public trust and that New Zealanders should be able to trust that no information will ever be revealed intentionally or by error. She talks about how she is so extremely disappointed and how she is committed to a process that is upfront and transparent. But where is her statement, her commitment to zero tolerance for privacy breaches? Where has she locked down and made sure that there will be no such breaches? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EShe could not do that, because she has no credibility when it comes to privacy issues, because she herself released private information of beneficiaries that she got, I understand, from the computer in her very own office. She got it from that computer in her office, and released private information about the incomes of two women who were solo parents on the DPB, who then suffered very severe public consequences in terms of people who verbally attacked these women and frightened them in terms of the protection and security of their children. Paula Bennett breached the Privacy Act and was found to be in breach by the Privacy Commissioner. Did she apologise to those women? No, she did not. She did not say sorry to the women whose privacy she breached. In fact, did she guarantee that she would never do such a thing again, having been found to be in breach? No, she did not. She did not guarantee that information held by her and her ministry\u2014private information\u2014would never be released. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EAnd now she has the gall to stand in this House and say that she is extremely disappointed with these failures, that she wants to be upfront and transparent, and that no information should ever intentionally be released. Well, this is the Minister who is leading the privacy breaches in her own ministry. She has set the standard for the Ministry of Social Development that it is OK to release any information you like, to not care for the protection of that information, and to have no respect for the people whose information is kept, and that has led to the kinds of breaches that we have seen\u2014not just this recent Ministry of Social Development breach, but also the continual leaks that appear to be coming from her office. She should at least now have a zero-tolerance policy. She does not, which means that all the things that she said in this House today mean nothing and can guarantee nothing for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is a systems failure of gargantuan\u2014enormous\u2014proportions. The front door to the Work and Income office was left wide open and anyone\u2014anyone\u2014could walk in and access personal details about the location of vulnerable children in the care of Child, Youth and Family. And the ministry knew that there was that vulnerability. It knew in 2011, 18 months ago\u2014more than that\u2014that there was a problem with this information being accessible and it did not do anything about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI think one of the most shocking revelations has been around the information of vulnerable children that has been available. The Minister has gone on and on about protecting vulnerable children. She has gone out and stigmatised beneficiaries in the process of her supposed desire to protect vulnerable children. She has harassed people over the issue of vulnerable children and is punishing people through punitive welfare reforms to justify protecting vulnerable children, and yet her own ministry and her own process are unable to protect even the addresses of the children who have been removed from abusers. The addresses and private information of children who have been removed from abusive households have been available, potentially, to those abusers. Somebody described this as a potential shopping list for paedophiles. That is the risk that Paula Bennett has put vulnerable children under. She has exposed them to that risk. And has she committed to zero tolerance of any privacy breaches? No, she has not, and has herself been guilty of putting other children\u2014the children of other beneficiaries\u2014at risk themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is an information technology security failure that is so huge that there has been some analysis from Daemon Consulting. Matthew Poole is talking about the fact that the entire Work and Income New Zealand network, and probably the entire New Zealand Ministry of Social Development network, should be considered to be fully compromised, not to mention the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority and the Families Commission, because some of that data was also available through the kiosk. Every server and workstation should now be considered to be accessible and controllable by people who are not employees of Work and Income or the Ministry of Social Development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EBizarrely, even passwords were available on that information. Those passwords were stored as plain text, so anybody who has access to that file has access to the passwords of who knows how many other computers or files. Minister Bennett, in answer to a question today, said that the reason why this vulnerable kids information database will not be as vulnerable as the current system is that it will be password protected. Well, not if they keep the passwords as plain text on a system that is so accessible, at this point, by who knows whom. That information, that system, will not be at all secure until the entire system at the Ministry of Social Development has been secured, and who knows how long or what cost that will take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EPersonal information may have been downloaded, false information uploaded, and existing information altered. There is a very high risk\u2014even higher now\u2014of internal fraud within the Ministry of Social Development as a result of this privacy breach. The Minister has tried to downplay some of the risk in these circumstances. She talks about data and information, but actually we are talking about people\u2019s lives being affected here if there is serious information interference, such as people who are being convicted or accused of fraud, people who may be accused of overpayments on their benefits, and people who may lose access or entitlement to their benefits, possibly because false information has now been placed on the Work and Income files and there is no capacity to tell whether or not that is the case. All of those files are now compromised. It is not just a matter of data; it is a matter of whether those people will suffer the consequences in their daily lives of this failure\u2014the most vulnerable New Zealanders, who do not deserve this kind of treatment. Of course, it is no surprise that it has happened on Minister Bennett\u2019s watch, because she has, as I have said, already demonstrated scant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228995ad9137d24dae8651fba1a21bdd48\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: It was inevitable it would happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d71b92a57b4c9a8809ebc5e9419945\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Well, my colleague from Labour said it was inevitable that it would happen, because of her scant regard for privacy, and I think he is probably right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EToday we have also had a revelation from the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s chief executive, Brendan Boyle, that in April of 2011 the ministry was informed about the flaws in the information system. Minister Bennett did not take that seriously, and nothing happened. Just last week, when Ira Bailey approached the Ministry of Social Development and did tell it that there was another failure in the system\u2014a whole information security hole at the ministry\u2014what did it do? Nothing. The ministry looked at him; the ministry investigated him. It did not bother to investigate his concern that there was a security breach in the information. It did not bother to go out and find the breach, and now it has been revealed to the whole public. The ministry can take full responsibility for that failure to check, when it had been told time and time again that this risk was present. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt has also been revealed that Ira Bailey\u2019s name was leaked to the media, and again Minister Bennett has taken no responsibility at all for the consequences of the leak. In fact, she is so blas\u00E9 about privacy breaches she said today she is not going to bother to find out whether or not her office leaked that name. That is her attitude. Her attitude is one of disgraceful disregard for the rights of New Zealanders. She does not deserve to be the Minister for Social Development if that is the kind of leadership that she is showing to New Zealanders. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00225550c72ae59947e5bf34c282b8bb7dba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225550c72ae59947e5bf34c282b8bb7dba\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is yet another case of the Government failing in its most basic duty to protect the rights of ordinary New Zealanders. If the Government collects, as it has in this case, important and personal information, and records that information, then it clearly has a duty of care to make sure that that information remains confidential. That is the basic function that has been breached in this case. There can, this time, be no excuses. There have been far too many occasions within Government agencies when breaches of privacy have occurred in just this first year of this term of this Government. First of all, we had ACC, we had the Inland Revenue Department, we had Work and Income, and now we have this. When is it going to stop? It cannot be allowed to go on and on and on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EWork and Income, in this case, has breached the public trust. It is not something that the public of New Zealand should let go past without protest. It is totally unacceptable. I listened to the Minister for Social Development and her apology, and I listened to her explanation today. I heard terms such as that some individual files were not breached, but one was. Well, what has that got to do with anything? It does not matter how many files are breached. It does not matter what information was obtained that should not have been obtained. It is not good enough, whether it is a lot or a few. I heard that only \u201Ca high level of personal information was accessed\u201D, and that, of course, really does not matter either, because it is perfectly clear that important personal information was available through the department\u2019s own facilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI also heard the Minister talk about being \u201Cdisappointed\u201D in the performance of the department, concerning these breaches of privacy being \u201Cnot acceptable\u201D. But what we really did not hear from the Minister was whether she was taking any personal responsibility for this, and whether she was actually going to make sure that nothing of this kind would happen in the future. Quite frankly, what I heard from the Minister was a totally inadequate response to such a serious issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe flaws in the department\u2019s kiosk system should have been identified by any number of in-house or external reviews. I am making the assumption that in this department, like other departments, there are robust in-house reviews and there is a robust system of auditing as to the performance of privacy provisions within departments. I did not hear from the Minister any words about that, and I would like to know, and I am sure the public would like to know too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIn fact, we do know that in April last year the Ministry of Social Development paid for a report by Dimension Data, and it actually did expose a number of flaws in the system. Why did the Minister not talk about that? Why did the Minister not say what those flaws were? Why did the Minister not explain what has been done about those flaws? Or is she just not interested? Quite frankly, that is the impression I get, not just from this Minister but from this Government as a whole. It seems to be deeply and comprehensibly disinterested in the protection of the privacy of individuals in this country, in respect of their personal information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENothing whatsoever has happened about that particular review. We are left, in this case, with yet another example of a Government agency, clearly inadequately staffed and inadequately funded, where those high up in the hierarchy are merely going through the motions and ticking boxes, and they are not, in fact, making sure that the privacy of people is genuinely protected. New Zealanders deserve a lot better than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EUnder this Government we have, of course, seen a whole litany of these kinds of omissions. First amongst them was ACC, and we eventually had the resignation of a Minister. We have had breaches of privacy in the Inland Revenue Department, and now we have Work and Income. You have to ask: where is it all going? What is going to happen next? What will be the breach of privacy in what department or what agency next month? It cannot be allowed to happen. The only way that this Parliament can make sure it does not is to hold Ministers accountable. That, in fact, is what it is there to do. Ministers are responsible to this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EWhat I have heard from this Minister is just this: that she does not think this is so serious that she should have done a lot more about it. As a result, we have a comprehensive lack of trust in this Government by the public generally. When you heard the debate earlier today during question time, and some of the things stated by the Prime Minister, you would have had to ask yourself as an ordinary New Zealander whether you could have trust in him as the Prime Minister of this country. When you think about the performance of Mr John Banks in this House concerning the issues that have concerned him in recent times, as an ordinary New Zealander you would have to ask, basically, whether you could really have trust in that particular Minister. I do not think many New Zealanders would be prepared to answer in respect of either of those cases that they have full trust in those Ministers. As I have already said, we have already had a resignation from one Minister, Mr Nick Smith, and that came back to trust as well\u2014trust in doing things properly and in accordance with correct procedures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EWhat we have with this Government is a culture of mistrust. There is a disconnect between the trustworthiness of this Government and the expectations of the people in this country, or what they should be. I have a number of questions to ask as a result of all this. First of all, the most obvious question of them all: where is the ministerial responsibility? Where is the accountability? This sort of thing has happened far too often\u2014in far too many departments\u2014and the Government just glosses over it. Well, it is time for this Minister to stand up and be counted. It is time for this Minister to resign. It is time for her to go. This issue is that important, and it cannot be allowed to go past. She should now really consider her situation. Why has she not demanded the resignation of her chief executive? That should also be called for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIn the end somebody has to take responsibility. It is not good enough for this to be glossed over once again. Why does nobody in this Government ever take responsibility for anything? It is always \u201CSmile and spin your way out of these situations.\u201D It is never \u201CLet\u2019s take responsibility.\u201D This is the way it should be. That is what the expectation of this House must be\u2014for that Minister to resign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00222f7135eb0d094541bde4d32bf68039f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f7135eb0d094541bde4d32bf68039f2\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am somewhat pleased to stand and take a call on this issue. I am not pleased, because there is absolutely no argument in this House that this security breach is appalling, and there is damage that has been done as a result of this breach. What I do find objectionable, though, is that members in this House stand here and say that they have not heard the Minister come to her feet and explain in some detail exactly what has happened. Instead, what do they do? They go into emotive language, and scaremonger about information that may have been made public. That is what I find offensive. The Minister stood here 10 or 15 minutes ago very clearly fronting this issue. She stood here, fronted the issue, and said she would make information available as it comes to her. She read an apology from the Chief Executive of the Ministry of Social Development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI am impressed. I am impressed with how quickly, when this serious breach came to light, and how rapidly those kiosks were shut down. So as soon as the threat was identified, it was shut down. And then not even 2 days later\u2014not even 48 hours later\u2014not only is there an independent review under way but also the consultants, Deloitte, have been appointed and they are under way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo there is no debate. There is no debate that this is a serious breach. But what there is a debate about is the fact that this side of the House fronts up, deals with issues as they go wrong, and focuses on the problem\u2014not petty politics, not scaremongering, and not scaring the New Zealand public. I mean, it is an absolute joke that on Sunday morning, that member of the Opposition, Jacinda Ardern, went on television to say that she would support perhaps some of the issues in the White Paper for Vulnerable Children, but not even 48 hours later she is using this to attack those same children. And here we have another party suggesting that paedophiles would use this information as a shopping list. That is despicable. That is absolutely despicable language in this House. There is a breach. We recognise that. The Minister and the chief executive have got onto it. They are dealing with it. So what is important now is that this issue is taken into focus, and that it is looked at in every level of detail possible to ensure that it does not happen. This is a problem. We are not saying it is not. The Minister stood there 15 minutes ago and fronted up with some detail about what information was potentially accessed. She talked about how absolutely mortified she was that there had been a breach. So for that side of the House to then use it to attack the very constructive work in the White Paper for Vulnerable Children, which over 10,000 New Zealanders have contributed to, is despicable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is focusing on what is important. It is focusing on what is important to New Zealanders. I am not going to stand here and have criticism of a Minister who I believe is the most courageous Minister for Social Development we have had in this country. Is she going to sit back and let generations rot on benefits? No, she is not. She is taking the hard calls. She is reforming the system that that side of the House did not have the guts to deal with. She is dealing with the issues of fraud. Constituents in my electorate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f81ffcf1c746eb8efd4aa6573b1992\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not interrupt the member immediately, because I was expecting you to interrupt her. The member cannot accuse other members of the House of lacking guts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca64894b777c4489923e484e21a9936e\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, technically the member is right. Generally, we apply that ruling when the word is referring to an individual. It was used in general terms. In my view, it is inappropriate, and I would just ask the member to desist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022150d4f7005ce424693e2a4c9804ca874\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, this is a Government that is focusing on what matters to New Zealanders. What matters to New Zealanders is having a system of welfare that supports those in need, and recognises that work is the best opportunity for families and children. We are taking the hard calls to protect the most vulnerable in this society, not playing petty politics with them like that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u00225abb1538ecdc4214b0ddeb4ff8a9de7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225abb1538ecdc4214b0ddeb4ff8a9de7a\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed her seat, Louise Upston, accused members on this side of the House of trying to distract attention from the true subject matter of the debate. Well, that is actually what she just did in the final couple of minutes of her speech. What this is all about is whether or not we have a Government that can guarantee the security of data that it holds on behalf of New Zealanders. Plainly, it cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EJust have a look at the examples that have occurred over the last couple of months. We had in September the Inland Revenue Department breaching the privacy of 30 people. At the same time, in the 2 weeks ahead of the tax return deadline 70,000 phone calls to the Inland Revenue Department went unanswered, and it has $7 billion worth of tax yet to collect. This is a department that needs decent IT. It is being starved of decent IT. The Minister of Revenue in perpetuity, apparently, the Hon Peter Dunne\u2014he has been the Minister now for 7 years\u2014seems to have no urgency in his mind about addressing this. He says there is a plan to upgrade the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s systems over the next 10 or so years. Well, who knows how many privacy breaches there will be over that time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAnd then there is ACC. The Privacy Commissioner recently examined how the private information of 6,748 people was sent to Bronwyn Pullar with ACC\u2019s compliance. It is just mind-boggling that that could occur. The independent inquiry into ACC on that occasion found \u201Csuch an error was more likely to occur because of systemic weaknesses within ACC\u2019s culture, systems and processes.\u201D Then, of course, Bronwyn Pullar\u2019s details somehow miraculously made it into the public domain. It is only necessary for me to quote the former president of the National Party, Michelle Boag, who said: \u201CWhen you can\u2019t send a communication to a Government minister without fearing that the privacy of that communication is going to be breached, that\u2019s very, very dangerous.\u201D That was Michelle Boag in the New Zealand Herald on 28 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E Then we come to the departments that are within the responsibility of this Minister. In 2011, 10 Work and Income staff had to be sacked after two inquiries into breaches of privacy. Seven staff were dismissed for appalling breaches, including sharing information with family members, and three were sacked after a second inquiry for breaching the so-called zero-tolerance policy that was in place at that department. Well, some zero-tolerance policy! Then in September 2012 Work and Income sent a client\u2019s private details to another client. Someone\u2019s one-page application was included in a pile of papers the client received at the meeting. When the client rang Work and Income to report it, the client was asked to just destroy the document. Then in August 2012 there was a further breach. A woman who was absolutely vigilant about her safety was called at home by a man who said he was conducting a survey to ascertain whether she was happy with her experience with Work and Income. He knew her name and had information about her. She had never consented to the release of that information. That is the record of this Government on protecting privacy and keeping data secure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn answer to the previous speaker, the reason why members on this side of the House have real issues about the sincerity of this Minister on this issue can be summed up when we look at the way that she dealt with the privacy breach in relation to Natasha Fuller. The Human Rights Commission found that Paula Bennett breached that woman\u2019s privacy. She was asked whether she would do the same thing again and she said: \u201Cit would depend on the circumstances\u201D. The Prime Minister backed her to the hilt. That is the culture of compliance that we have under this Government. The apology that we heard that was read out by the Minister cannot be taken seriously, because of the Minister\u2019s form and the handling of this issue: blacken the names of the people who reveal the breach, say that they were after money, and leak their identity to the media. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe have got a real issue here. We have got a Law Commission report on privacy half implemented. We have got another Law Commission report on the Official Information Act, which is inadequate. Nothing less than a royal commission into the security of the way the Government holds the data of individual New Zealanders is going to be able to fix this problem. If we do not see it from this Government, we are going to see it, hopefully, through a member\u2019s bill, because I am certainly keen to see one drafted to bring about that reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcd246ae02184751b91e1d1cfa0b6a6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcd246ae02184751b91e1d1cfa0b6a6c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Minister for Social Development has done all that she could in the last 48 hours or so since learning of this appalling breach of privacy. No one is arguing that it is anything other than just that. For the Opposition to say that the Minister is insincere I think does obscure the problem that we have to deal with here. It does make it very personal, when in fact the reality is that this is something that could have happened to any Government at any time. It is not unique to the current circumstances. If members are realistic and honest about it, they will accept that these systems have been in place for a very long time, and, therefore, have had some of the vulnerabilities that have occurred, or come to light, I should say, in the last several months. What it does indicate is that we are now living in a world where a great deal of our information is held electronically, not just by State agencies but by many private sector agencies as well. Very few people would write cheques these days, for example, preferring to do everything by electronic means. It is simply the world that we live in. That does not excuse the appalling breach of security that has occurred inside this system. I am very, very certain that the Government wants to get to the bottom of this particular issue and to sort it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI am also very much in admiration of the Minister for being so upfront in saying exactly what it is\u2014an appalling breach of private security\u2014and not trying to create any degree of obfuscation through various excuses that might have previously been offered by other Ministers, and I speak about Ministers from other Governments in the past. The reality is that the Minister has done all that can be done at this point and continues to supervise a programme that will fix this problem. Mr Chauvel calling for a royal commission on this shows, I think, that he has not thought through exactly what he is asking for. This is an issue that is not necessarily confined to the State sector. It is one that could well affect the private sector. Indeed, there are some very interesting cases before the courts at the moment about privacy, about breaches of privacy, and about the way in which people\u2019s individual intellectual property, in fact, is dealt with, as well. We live in an age of increasing electronic activity. We live in an age where all of these things do need to be well looked after, and the commitment from the Minister and from the Government is to sort this matter out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u00221055b67460f346cdb22812ff548eadf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221055b67460f346cdb22812ff548eadf1\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me no pleasure to speak on this motion. I think I share the sentiments of all those in the House here today when we see a security breach where private information has obviously been put in the public domain unnecessarily. That situation is unsatisfactory and it is disappointing. I am sorry that this has happened. But it is about taking leadership and action, and this Minister\u2014and I stand to support this Minister, Paula Bennett\u2014has fronted with the chief executive, she has fronted to this House today, answering all the questions that have been put to her, and she will continue to fight for vulnerable children and she will continue to fight for the truth in this matter. And the truth is that at this point in time no one knows. I do not know what happened and how this information became public. Lianne Dalziel does not know what happened. Across the floor here, the Green and the New Zealand First members do not know what happened. But there is an independent investigation that is being carried out, and no stone will be left unturned in order to get to the truth of the matter. We hear cries from the Opposition of royal commissions of inquiry and we hear cries for resignations, when what is required here is calm, what is required here is leadership, and what is required here is restraint, in order to get to the bottom of these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ESo I stand to support the Minister, I stand to support the independent investigation that is going on, and I stand to support the reforms that this Government is doing in the area of social development. That includes welfare reforms, in terms of streamlining those reforms. It includes the white paper reforms that the Minister clearly outlined last Thursday. It includes reforms to help the vulnerable, the poor, and those in need. So I am not happy to speak on this motion, but I am certainly here to say that this Government is doing everything in its power to get to the bottom of this case, to get to the truth, and to ensure that in future, systems will be put in place in order for us to protect and safeguard the private information of our citizens. It is about the confidence and trust in our Government, and that is what is being done. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00224f5c4b3ad71b4fb8af5be674ab376993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f5c4b3ad71b4fb8af5be674ab376993\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E The very last sentence that the member who just spoke, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, said was absolutely true. This is about the confidence and trust New Zealanders can have in their Government. There are some questions that all New Zealanders will be asking around this release of private information. How did it happen? Who knew or should have known about the situation? When did they find out, and, when they found out, what did they do about it? Those are very legitimate and reasonable questions for every New Zealander to be asking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo how did this happen? It actually starts back in 2009. There is a paper trail that starts back in 2009, when Bill English wrote to Ministers in the incoming National Government and asked them what they were going to be doing to save money. One of the questions that he asked them was around what they were doing with regard to staff numbers. Of course, let us consider that in context. The context is that at the time the unemployment rate was going up, the economy was in a downward spiral, and there was clearly going to be more demand on Work and Income staff to provide front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E What was Paula Bennett\u2019s response to that? Paula Bennett\u2019s response to that was to say\u2014and I am quoting directly from a paper that Paula Bennett has signed off\u2014that \u201CWhilst the Ministry has a strong focus on reducing its national office numbers there are also substantial plans to automate frontline services for clients through the use of online and other IT solutions.\u201D, i.e. the kiosks in the office. She stated: \u201CI will be monitoring the progress of these plans regularly with the Ministry\u2019s Chief Executive.\u201D So how did this begin? How did those kiosks come to be in the Work and Income offices in the first place? The Minister made a conscious decision, in the context of rising unemployment, that rather than employ more people at the Ministry of Social Development to deal with that challenge and to provide support to the people who were going to be coming into the Ministry of Social Development and into Work and Income offices, she decided that she would put computer terminals in the offices instead. It was a conscious decision by the Minister that resulted in this problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWho knew or should have known is the next question that we then come to. Who knew or should have known? Should the Minister have known about this? When they decided to implement this IT solution by putting kiosks in the front-line offices, with access to databases, did the Government Communications Security Bureau get asked about that, and did it provide advice to the Government? If it did not, why not? That is actually its job. That is what the bureau is there for. Members of this House all have electronic devices that have restraints placed on them by Parliament on the advice the Government Communications Security Bureau. This is its job. It proactively goes in, looks at the IT systems of Government departments, and places requirements and restrictions on the use of those IT systems. So when it did this, when the Government decided, on Paula Bennett\u2019s direction\u2014it is in her letter here\u2014that it was going to put kiosks in Work and Income\u2019s offices rather than employing staff to deal with people, and to allow people access to its IT system, did it get the bureau involved, and did it check to make sure that its system was going to be robust? If it did not, then Paula Bennett has some serious questions to answer about that, because she is the Minister responsible and this system was implemented under her direction. It was her initiative. She is responsible for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe next question then becomes \u201CWhen did they find out?\u201D. Taking aside how we got here, when did they find out and what did they do about it? The kiosks were rolled out in 2010, and they were told in April last year that there were potential vulnerabilities within the system. So the question is what happened then? What happened then? When the Government found out there were potential vulnerabilities in the system, what happened then? That was April last year\u2014that is a year and half ago\u2014so why is it that this problem was not identified and fixed at the time? Beneficiary advocates reportedly told the Ministry of Social Development 1 year ago that there were issues with this problem. Again, why was it not looked into at the time? Why was it not fixed at the time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOn Monday last week the Ministry of Social Development became aware of the problem\u2014on Monday last week. It took it until Wednesday to tell the Minister that there was this problem. That is a problem in itself. Taking 2 days to tell the Minister that there had been a serious breach of privacy is not good enough. That is the first problem. So Paula Bennett found out on Wednesday. It was Sunday, when a blogger released all of the information online, before it became public. I want to know what Paula Bennett was doing for the 4 days in between. What did Paula Bennett do last Wednesday when she found out about this, and why was it that people could still access that on Sunday? That is simply not good enough, and the public of New Zealand should be able to expect better from Ministers in this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat did Paula Bennett do? Did she have her officials into her office straight away to find out what was going on? Did she contact the Government Communications Security Bureau at that point, knowing that this is the bureau\u2019s fundamental job? Did she contact it at that point? I will tell you what: if Ministers find out that their departments\u2019 databases containing private information about New Zealand residents and New Zealand citizens have been accessed inappropriately, and they do not immediately require some action to investigate what is going on and to make sure the problem is shut down, then they are negligent. They are totally and utterly negligent. Paula Bennett found out about this on Wednesday\u2014last Wednesday. Yet Sunday, when it became clear on the blogs, was the first the public knew about it\u2014late on Sunday night. Paula Bennett had that information for 4 days, and what did she do? What inquiries did she launch? What steps did she take to make sure that databases were shut down or sealed off until she knew that they were secure? Four days is a long time. A hell of a lot of information can be accessed in that time, and a heck of a lot of damage can be done in that time\u20144 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt is now over a week since the Ministry of Social Development found out about this situation and we are debating it in Parliament, the public having found out about it only yesterday, a week after the ministry was first informed about it. Why is that? Why did it take a week before the public found out about it? In that week, were any of the people whose information was accessed informed that their information had been accessed? If information, for example, was accessed\u2014and I am only going on reports here\u2014about children living in safe houses, what steps were taken as soon as the Government knew that that information had been accessed? What steps were taken to protect those people? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThese are legitimate questions that the Government must front up and provide answers for. This is not good enough. This is a serious breach, a release of information involving some very vulnerable people, and for the Government to take a week to reveal that to the public is simply not good enough. For the Minister to sit on this information for 4 days is simply not good enough. The public is entitled to expect better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo come back to the very first point that I made and to pick up Sam Lotu-Iiga\u2019s point, this is about trust and confidence in the Government, and if its handling of this situation is any guide to go by, the public cannot have any. They cannot have any trust and confidence that the Government will take their private and personal information, treat it carefully and responsibly, and make sure that it is not released for purposes that it was not collected for. Trust and confidence in the Government will be seriously eroded by this, not just by the fact that it happened, not just by the fact that it happened because of Budget funding cuts, not just because the Government sat on it when it found out about it, but because the Government, when it did find out about, did not do what it should have done. It has been negligent, and the Minister has been negligent in her handling of this situation\u2014full stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0e69e7d8bcb4436bee53b5e986ce1d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0e69e7d8bcb4436bee53b5e986ce1d9\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I can say, I think, with a reasonable amount of credibility that I am one of only a few members in this House who made my living developing computer systems before I came to Parliament. Yes, it was actually prior to the internet coming to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276316e6c15ad4087abd0ed1142a5517f\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I was going to say, I thought you were a bit old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226afbea4503ae4c1aa6819aab964b10d8\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Even so, there were communication systems on the airline system that allowed people to hack into the mainframes of stuff we developed. Whenever an issue like this occurs, I think the Minister has, in the words of that great Led Zeppelin song, \u201Ctwo paths you can go by\u201D. You can either try to hide, obfuscate the issue, justify what happened, and so on, or you can do what I think Minister Bennett has done absolutely admirably, and that is to be open, admit there is a serious issue, actually move heaven and earth to try to identify what the issue is, and fix the matter urgently. I want to say to the member Chris Hipkins, who has just finished his speech, that his facts were wrong. Yes, Minister Bennett on Monday was alerted that there was a risk to information. But that alert did not say where it was or what it was, but just that it was an unknown risk that needed some identification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebfe43d0f8e04aafacd779b827ab6abb\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: But what did she do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276809671adf48e9bb3afd8fa6c8c3ac\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member has just now played beautifully into my hands, because the Minister got KPMG to start trolling through the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s systems to find what it was that could be the risk and where it could lie. I am told that KPMG did not come back to the Minister until Sunday, identifying that it was the kiosks. For that member to be standing in this House today and saying that the Minister knew back on Monday and let a whole week of all this exposure go on without her doing anything is just factually incorrect. What the Minister did was to get KPMG immediately. It can happen to any one of us. Just about every Minister in the Government has departments that have information held on their departments\u2019 computers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E God knows, on 5 March next year Statistics New Zealand, one of my ministries, will collect incredible information in the census about individuals. I have gone out of my way to ensure that that stuff will be protected and kept safe and that no individual records will be made available. But Minister Bennett did exactly what she should do. And I want to say to members on the other side of this House that it is quite possible that these sorts of security breaches occurred while they were Ministers. It is quite possible that people would have been into the systems and seen information, but it did not quite get to be as exposed in those days because there were not things like bloggers around who felt it was really neat to get some coverage for blogging that stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79b5ff1c6e141879be5b52647df730a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: When we were Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da971ea404bf4384aae7712309920da7\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Blogging came into fashion only just towards the end of the Labour Government. Blogging has been around only 4 or 5 years now. It was not around in the early 2000s. I want to remind this House that we did not even have the internet in New Zealand 20 years ago. It came in only in 1993, and we are in 2012. So it is not yet 20 years for the internet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo Minister Bennett did exactly the right thing. When you come to be the Opposition, there are, again, two paths you can go by. You can start screaming and yelling and blaming the Minister because she allowed a security breach in a computer system, or you can actually demand that she take action to identify what the issues were, to make sure they are being fixed immediately and that any security holes in the system are being closed off, and to identify a regime that will prevent any such failures in the future. And, again, I believe that is what Minister Bennett has done beautifully. She has actually gone in to identify what matters are at risk in the system and so on. If it is any member of this House\u2019s advocacy that the Minister should know there is a security hole in some hardware/software networking, then I tell you that you are wrong. I tell you that you are wrong because I can tell you that it occurs even at the highest echelons of information technology\u2014for example, Microsoft, probably the world\u2019s biggest developer of information technology systems, has every now and then had to put out an announcement that it found a security hole in its Internet Explorer, or it found a pinhole in the back of some internet protocol of one particular product, and it has had to put out a fix, otherwise people would be able to breach the firewalls and breach the internet protocol, and so on. So to any member of this House prepared to get up and say that Minister Bennett should have somehow been crawling underneath the computers, pulling out all the internet cables and the ethernet plugs, and checking the IP addresses and what protection there was, I say that what Minister Bennett had to do was rely on her department giving her an assurance that when it brings a system into the market place like it did, it puts those protections in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut these sorts of things can and will happen again. They will happen even when there is another Government in this country in years to come as more and more information gets put online, as more and more sophisticated systems are out there, and as more and more sophisticated hackers find ways to go through some form of a click-box server in the Ukraine, come back via a pinhole in the firewall somewhere, and pick up stuff. What does that mean? Well, we could actually shut up shop and not put any information on the internet at all. We could go back to parchment and quill pens and go back to the old days, and I am sure there are some people around who think we should do that. But the rest of the world is moving on to putting its information on to information systems where they have phenomenal value, where people can go and read stuff, and so on. But, having said all that, there will always be risks. I hear, I think it was, Chris Hipkins say that we should have got the Government Communications Security Bureau in, but even the Government Communications Security Bureau will not be able to identify every hole in every piece of software wherever. Only when that hole or that security risk is found should the actual Minister, the department, the computer people, KPMG, and whoever else move heaven and earth to fix it, and that is what has gone on here. I actually ask all members of this House, especially from the Opposition, to be a bit careful about what they are advocating. I am happy for them to advocate that Ministers should step up to the mark and demand to find out how this happened. I am happy that she steps up to the mark and demands that immediate action is taken to close off the loop in it. I am happy that she demands\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9c22a47b7194949939cb38a3d79e796\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Leadership on privacy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae4c43ee149c4e1e8a127b766e0b3fd0\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am hearing something from Lianne Dalziel about privacy. Paula Bennett, like every other member of this House, believes truly in the need for privacy for individuals. No one in this House wants privacy breaches of information to be out. This was a failure of an information technology system. I look at stuff that I have rolled out of my ministry. I look at things like SmartGate and the taking of photos as you come through customs and whether there may be a breach in that. I have asked and asked, I have been assured, and I have gone and had a look at it, and I am quite confident that there is not. But if anyone ever identifies a breach in that, I can assure you that, like Paula Bennett, I will move heaven and earth to close down the risks, to shut down that system, and reopen it only when I am confident that we have found that particular bug. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut I finish as I began: big issues can occur even across the most sophisticated developers in the world, and huge companies with billions of resources have identified those risks. Well, the Ministry of Social Development got this wrong, Paula Bennett has said so, and Paula Bennett is fixing it. I think we should be very proud to have a Minister of her calibre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002291ca047d6b7d4f3589291888e8a11593\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill; and Bills Therefrom\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022138ef7923d0c450b9919d4d3f222ca93\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022416a3c835eff4eb4a2ac6e480197b91f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022416a3c835eff4eb4a2ac6e480197b91f\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, the Education (Student Allowances Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, the Income Tax (Working for Families Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, the Social Security (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, and the War Pensions (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. I am really pleased to be able to stand and talk about something that the whole of the House generally agrees on. First, I would like to thank my ministerial colleagues, particularly the Hon Chester Borrows, for their assistance in the second reading and Committee stage of this legislation, and I want to again mention the professional commitment and passion, way beyond the call of duty, of the health officials who championed tobacco reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThere was a statement made to the Finance and Expenditure Committee by the coalition End Smoking NZ trust, which places this bill in a proper context. The trust saw this bill as a means to correct the market failure that has resulted in the death of some 200,000 New Zealanders since 1950. According to the trust, the high profits gained from the sale of the product, which continues to kill 5,000 New Zealanders every year, suggests that prices should be capped and profits recovered as excise. It was a message that in various forms was replicated through the submissions of the 94 interested groups and individuals who so generously contributed to the debate. In fact, the great majority of submissions\u201475 out of 94 received\u2014recommended higher excise tax increases to reduce smoking even further. Repeatedly the committee was told that increasing tobacco tax is the single most effective measure to reduce tobacco consumption. In essence, that is why this legislation is so important and I hope it will receive the right support right across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the speeches made by members throughout previous stages have been supportive of our goal to address the enormous harm that is caused by smoking, which is by far New Zealand\u2019s leading avoidable cause of serious illness and premature death. I accept the healthy scrutiny that all parties take up in relation to discussions around revenue gathering as part of the core parliamentary debate. I want to give my solid assurance to this House and to the public that I have never considered tobacco reform to be important because of the revenue that is gained from higher excise. We should not play politics with such a serious issue. In actual fact, if our goal to make New Zealand smoke-free by 2025 is achieved, tobacco excise revenues will be significantly reduced over the longer term. There is only one universal goal in my mind and that is to reduce tobacco consumption, and in doing so we are literally saving lives. What greater goal can there be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EModelling referred to by the New Zealand Medical Association suggests that if smoking was eradicated from our country, it would see an overall increase in the life expectancy of M\u0101ori and Pasifika by 5 years, and 3 years for others. Increasing tobacco excise is a critical lever to raise the retail price of tobacco products. This provides a strong signal and financial incentive to dissuade people from smoking. It is effective, it is immediate, and we know it works. Increasing tobacco excise definitely impacts on our young people who might be contemplating taking up smoking, because we know that they are very responsive to price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESecondly, lifting the excise provides all smokers with another trigger to quit. Not only can they avoid the high risk of tragic health consequences from smoking, but they can save themselves sizable sums of money. I heard the most wonderful story from one of our Wh\u0101nau Ora collectives, which described a w\u2019\u0101nau in Taumarunui who came together to chart out a plan for their future. They had an overwhelming desire to own their own home, but on their income projections that simply was not going to happen fast. So they looked around, and they realised that they were all sitting on a significant source of revenue: their cigarette addiction. They literally took the power into their own hands by improving their health while at the same time increasing their savings and their potential for buying their own home. They quit smoking, they joined their savings together, and they are well on the way to homeownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThirdly, the rising cost and increasing unaffordability of smoking provides those who have quit or are struggling to stay quit with reinforcement to stay strong. The basic framework of this bill as announced in this year\u2019s Budget is to provide for four 10 percent increases in tobacco excise, to come into effect on 1 January in each of the next 4 years. In practical terms, it means that an average pack of 20 cigarettes will cost over $20 in 2016. The mechanics spelt out in the legislation provide for these new annual increases in tobacco excise and excise-equivalent duties to be made in combination with the existing processes available to keep pace with inflation. This is an important mechanism to maintain the value of the tobacco increases and the unaffordability of tobacco products in real terms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThis bill will ensure that the financial incentive against smoking is not watered down through the cost indexation of social assistance payments. Exactly the same thing was done in April 2010, when the last excise increase went through under urgency, so I have to admit to some surprise at the arguments that have been raised by Mr Lees-Galloway during the debate. It makes no sense to raise tobacco prices on the one hand in order to reduce tobacco consumption, only to then factor the increase in tobacco prices back into the calculations used to keep social assistance payments in pace with inflation. Of course we are sensitive to the impact that tobacco excise increases will have on those who are unable or unwilling to quit, but what the proposal in the bill does is strike a balance that does not unduly punish low-income smokers or their families, while ensuring that there is a strong incentive for them to quit and thereby significantly boost their disposable income. The Government provides a range of services and subsidised treatments to help smokers quit, and I am very mindful that there is always more that we could do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI have been very impressed by the bold steps that have been taken by the Queensland Government that make it illegal for people to smoke in cars where there are children. From 1 January 2010 anyone over in Queensland who smokes in a car with children has been liable to a $200 fine, the rationale being that the level of tobacco smoke inside a vehicle is very high and that young children involuntarily exposed to tobacco smoke in confined environments have significantly increased health risks, including bronchitis, pneumonia, asthma, ear infections, and sudden infant death syndrome. Queensland also has extensive smoking bans in outdoor areas, including beaches, sports facilities, and children\u2019s playgrounds. So there are plenty of ideas for us to consider in our quest to be smoke-free by 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to note two recommendations that the committee has made in its report on this bill\u2014namely, to monitor closely the progress that will be made over the next few years towards the goal of a smoke-free New Zealand by 2025 and implement further excise tax increases after 2016 if its achievement is in doubt, and to undertake work to access the compatibility of New Zealand\u2019s duty-free tobacco concession, with the goal of achieving a smoke-free New Zealand by 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI absolutely believe that we must search far and wide for all the avenues that we can use to reduce tobacco consumption and exposure to tobacco. I am proud that this Parliament is having the courage to increase the price of tobacco as one of the key levers of our comprehensive tobacco control programme. Although the increases in tobacco excise in 2010, 2011, and 2012 have reduced consumption and prompted thousands of smokers to quit, we cannot and we must not rest there. That is why this bill is needed, to bring in a further series of annual 10 percent increases over the next 4 years, and that is why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002294f9c68b334e45739ccb17229fcf4198\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294f9c68b334e45739ccb17229fcf4198\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this legislation. I listened intently to the third reading speech of the Associate Minister of Health Tariana Turia. The Labour Party is wholeheartedly in favour of the bill that was Part 1 of the original Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. We are less wholeheartedly in favour of the legislation that was Part 2. I want to elucidate that shortly. We will support Part 2. Certainly there is no argument from the Labour Party as far as Part 1 is concerned, where this excise is used to reduce tobacco consumption. It is one very valid way and one very effective way of reducing consumption, particularly to discourage new smokers\u2014young people, in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to use some reference from the regulatory impact statement from Treasury, when it was considering, and advising the Government on, this measure. Treasury said: \u201CThere are three broad reasons for taxing tobacco: raising revenue, addressing negative financial \u2018externalities\u2019 from smoking\u201D\u2014that is what Treasury calls it\u2014\u201Cand discouraging tobacco use for social policy reasons\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe bill that was Part 1 addresses quite properly the social policy reasons. There are very profound health reasons for increasing the cost of tobacco. In fact, Treasury says that there will have been a very substantial impact between the years ended June 2009 and June 2012 on tobacco volumes. They are forecast to have fallen in that period by 20 percent, which is a good thing, following a 38 percent increase in price. We in the Labour Party absolutely support this. This is a lethal drug. It is legal and it is lethal, and if there is anything we can do to discourage people, particularly young people, from taking it up, then it is incumbent on this Parliament, in my view, to do so. And so we have no issue at all in supporting the Minister entirely in her efforts for the social policy reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe concerns I have around this are that it is going to generate additional revenue of some, I think, $528 million over 4 years\u2014$528 million over 4 years\u2014with the passing of this legislation. Treasury says: \u201CAt over $1.3 billion per year, tobacco excise revenues may already exceed the direct health system costs of smoking\u201D. That is contested by one of the latest surveys\u2014a recent Ministry of Health study, which Treasury refers to\u2014which estimated the health costs of smoking at up to $1.9 billion a year, or some 15 percent of Vote Health, and that estimate used more detailed information than ever before. What I really hope the Minister is able to do and to impress upon her Cabinet colleagues is that this excise should be ploughed back into health. It should be ploughed back into addressing quitting smoking, making sure that there is as little access to it as possible, but mostly assisting people even more assiduously than we do now, paying more money into the assistance for those who wish to quit smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut my suspicion is that this is not the aim of other members of this Government, and certainly not of members inside Cabinet. If it were a health measure entirely, this legislation would have come to the Health Committee. It did not. It went to the Finance and Expenditure Committee because it is a revenue-raising measure. I would like to see this revenue-raising measure tagged to the health budget as additional funding to assist people to quit smoking, and then I might take some of the Minister\u2019s colleagues more seriously in their intent. The Minister proposing this legislation has outlined her absolute commitment to the reduction and eradication, eventually, of smoking in New Zealand, and I support that entirely and I do not doubt her motives, but I would like to see more teeth in this legislation, which would apply this additional revenue to health outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI need to talk for a moment about Part 2 of the original bill, which is the bit of the bill that divides the bill up into six additional bills. We expressed some concern in the Committee stage of the bill, and I was one who expressed some of those concerns. We will support these six bills, but they raise issues for us that I think are worthy of consideration. First of all, of course, the CPI measures the rate of the change in the price of goods and services purchased by New Zealand households. Statistics New Zealand visits 3,000 shops across New Zealand to collect prices for the CPI and to check product sizes and features in order to arrive at some understanding of how much the cost of goods and services to New Zealand households has increased over the previous year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe import of the part of the bill with six additional bills in it is to take tobacco products out of the CPI basket of goods that applies to beneficiaries of all sorts\u2014we are talking students, we are talking war veterans, we are talking superannuitants, and we are talking other beneficiaries\u2014and what those families might spend their money on. So the CPI indexation drops for those people and those people only. This is a way for the Government to mitigate its costs. In other words, it is cheaper for the Government to take tobacco out of the CPI indexation for the appropriations for which it is directly responsible\u2014in other words, benefits. So all of those benefits\u2014war pensions and all of those things that I mentioned earlier\u2014will be adjusted by a CPI that is lower. It is a CPI that is lower by a fraction, but it all adds up to Government expenditure lowered by a fraction for those people who are dependent upon the Government for their income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis raises issues for us, and we in the Labour Party think that it is time perhaps to review how the CPI is arrived at. It might be a useful exercise to see whether or not it remains fair and non-discriminatory to apply a differential CPI to those who are dependent on the Government for their income. Of course, there are cost impacts for Government in this, but we think that it is time that the process around arriving at the CPI could be reviewed, particularly to see whether there are items that ought to be exempted and there are items that ought to be included in the CPI and whether or not a differential CPI rate is fair and equitable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf this is about money then, certainly, this all works in the Government\u2019s favour. Not only does the Government get additional excise but it also has to pay out less of a CPI increase to those for whose income it is responsible. We did not do this when we were in Government. We did not exempt tobacco products from the CPI for beneficiaries. This has been something that this Government has done. What I am saying is that we fully endorse the health objectives of these bills. We will support the other objectives entirely, we will support progress of the legislation that was Part 2 of the bill, but that is not without question marks, and not without the need for some future consideration and review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5ad3ea346324106acde284e18e6faf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5ad3ea346324106acde284e18e6faf1\u0022\u003ETODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak on the legislation arising from the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, because they are extremely important pieces of legislation, and I am glad to hear that parties on all sides of the House will be supporting them. I am not going to take issue with any particular part that I may think could be made a little bit better. I am going to celebrate the great work that this Government has done under a very effective Minister over 4 years, and to look at what realistically these changes that have been brought through in this legislation will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI think it is clear to everybody in New Zealand\u2014and if not, they are deniers\u2014that smoking is the leading preventable cause of early death. We have groups within society that are affected to a much greater degree than some others. I particularly want to recognise the work that Minister Turia has put in to this House over the last 4 years to look at changing the disproportionate overrepresentation of M\u0101ori, and young M\u0101ori, in smoking statistics. That is harm that can be avoided, and all members of this House, rather than focusing on what else could be or should be done, or how they would do it if they were still in Government, should actually be focusing on the achievements that have been brought through in these pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EVery clearly, this legislation will do one thing and one thing alone: it will increase the cost of tobacco by 10 percent per year each year for 4 years. At the end of that period of time cigarettes will be close to $20 per packet. That is $1 per cigarette. For our young New Zealanders, I believe that this is one of the most important things that we can do to put smoking out of their reach. If we think about when some of us grew up, when the price was so much less, cigarettes would be shared freely around the place. I encourage you, Mr Speaker, or any other member of this House to go out to a school and walk around asking kids in the playground for $1\u2014say \u201CCan I have $1? Give me $1.\u201D\u2014and I guarantee you will not come away with very many dollars. But what this equates to was years ago \u201CCan I have a cigarette?\u201D was seen to be asking for something not of any value or any great cost. So I say to the Minister that these changes she is bringing into effect are going to have the biggest positive effect upon young people\u2019s health by stopping them from starting smoking. I will come to what we are doing around helping people to stop, to support them, but stopping young people from starting smoking is the very best gift we can give them, in so far as these pieces of legislation are concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EStatistically, we know that a 10 percent increase in the price of tobacco equates to a 4 percent decrease in consumption, and therefore, with this legislation, over the next few years we estimate that there will be about a 16 percent decrease in consumption. What that means is fewer people smoking, so it is not just that some will smoke less, but fewer people will smoke. Fewer will start smoking, and many more people will give up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIt is important that in doing this we continue to support those who are challenged, who are addicted to this drug and the harm that it does them. The Government\u2014I am very proud to say\u2014in the Budget in 2012 put in $20 million extra to assist pathways towards a smoke-free New Zealand by 2025. This is on top of funding that was put in by previous Governments. Indeed, Mr Speaker, what I can say to you is that we are making these increases, but they are in addition to annual inflation-indexed increases in excise. They follow a 40 percent increase in the price of tobacco since 2010. So our record on this, when it comes to smoking, is clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EEach year 4,500 to 5,000 New Zealanders die due to smoking or exposure to second-hand smoke, and that is 4,500 to 5,000 deaths that can be avoided, and I believe that this legislation will help in the future to reduce that number. About 650,000 New Zealanders smoke and we know, again through surveying, that the majority of people who smoke\u2014the vast majority of people who smoke\u2014wish they had never started and want to find a way to stop. I recognise that it is not easy, but it can be done, and there are many members of this House who are able to attest to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI want to just briefly touch on some of the things, as a Government, we have done previously to decrease smoking as it stands. There has been a 40 percent increase in the excise price since April 2010. We have adopted Better Help for Smokers to Quit, which is one of our six priorities in the health sector. We now know what has happened under Tony Ryall is that 89 percent of people who go to hospital or who visit their doctors are asked about giving up smoking and are offered support. That is up from 0 percent, because this was not a target and did not happen before. In the 2011 calendar year 129,000 patients received advice on how to quit and support from their general practitioners. One of the most important things that can happen is having your general practitioner or health professional ask you: \u201CDo you know smoking is not good for you?\u201D, and knowing how you can stop. We have increased fines for those who sell tobacco to minors, from $2,000 to $5,000 for an individual, and to $10,000 for a body corporate. We have banned smoking in prisons. A jump of 50 percent in calls to Quitline has resulted in significant increases in funding, from higher tobacco taxes. We have increased the uptake\u201482 percent in those 18 months\u2014of people who are looking for nicotine replacement gums and patches. We have included tablets that you can take to help you reduce smoking. They are now freely available from the health service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI want to finish here with one statistic that I think is fantastic. In 1999, 15.6 percent of school-age students smoked. That is not the fantastic part. In 2011 that number had dropped to 4.1 percent. That is a wonderful decrease. There are so many more young New Zealanders whose lives will be longer and healthier. But I set a challenge to this House: 4.1 percent of school-age children smoking is still far too high. We need to work collectively together to find ways to reduce that number and to support those who smoke to not smoke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI commend the Minister for this legislation and I thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its work. I commend the legislation to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00228d4e5cd8049e420b93653f99c8e1a970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d4e5cd8049e420b93653f99c8e1a970\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this legislation arising from the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. We wholeheartedly, as the Labour Party, support this legislation, recognising that smoking remains the single biggest cause of preventable morbidity and mortality in New Zealand. The previous speaker, Todd McClay, referenced the importance of being positive about this change, and, indeed, we do support it. We think that this is the way to address smoking. It is very clear that price levers are amongst the most effective tobacco control measures. They make it harder for young people to start smoking, and they make it more difficult for the tobacco industry to retain its clients in this industry, which currently affects about one in five adults in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt is interesting, of course, to note that historically the National Party, although it is calling for support now, opposed such measures. The previous member may not recall\u2014there seems to be a little bit of that going around the National Party at the moment, that recollection loss\u2014but the Hon Bill English said in 2000 that the reason the National Party voted against these kinds of measures was that \u201CIt is a tax on the poorest people in New Zealand, it is an increase that is far too large, and that is why we voted against it.\u201D He said that not so very long ago in opposing such an excise tax message. Those members may have forgotten that they had a different stance. In this case we celebrate that lack of memory from the National Party. In other cases we have been a little more critical, where the private details of New Zealanders are concerned, but in this case it is a happy thing that National members have forgotten that they opposed this kind of increase on supposedly principled grounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI am a little bit suspicious that what really is going on here is a revenue grab. It is actually a naked revenue grab. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df27f7d49d74cb3b5a3e8f50a789b0b\u0022\u003ETodd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not in your nature to be suspicious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c31295b09984b93a85231d37f19124b\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee tells me not to be suspicious in this regard, but I am afraid his body language is not convincing, and it is a little too late because we know that the Government has a significant revenue hole. This is excise legislation we are debating here in Parliament. The Government has had a revenue hole since revenues dropped by 4 percent under its watch. Its own officials say that 1.5 percent of that can be attributed to the global financial crisis, roughly in line with other countries around the world, but that 2.5 percent of that revenue drop is directly a response to Government policy changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe 2010 tax switch that this Government put through, we were assured, was going to grow the economy. Actually, what we have seen is the economy, in real terms, struggling, and the only reason we have had any growth figures whatsoever is due to population growth. Real wages for New Zealand workers have gone down. These 2010 tax measures, which switched around the way who got which tax cuts and how much of the value of the produce that New Zealand made went where, were not to the benefit of the majority of New Zealanders. Forty-four percent of the value of those tax cuts in 2010 went to the top 10 percent of earners; just 2 percent went to the bottom 20 percent of earners. That is hardly fair, but what we were told at the time was that this would grow the economy and that it was broadly fiscally neutral. If you can remember back that far, Mr Speaker\u2014and I am sure you can\u2014we were told that it was broadly fiscally neutral. The effect has been not broadly fiscally neutral, in my opinion, because what has happened is that those revenue drops have happened, the Government is now scrabbling around, and here we have a measure that looks more like something that is to do with expedience than something that is to do with principle, when we look back on National\u2019s track record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI am very proud to be a Labour member of Parliament, because Labour has taken a stance on this issue that is consistent over time, that is principled, and that is actually about reducing the harm that is linked to tobacco use. So National\u2019s stance stands out starkly in contrast to that when we see a revenue hole emerging and a different stance being taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Government has had various other measures that we have seen recently in this Parliament that are along a similar line and aim to fill this revenue hole. We have seen the car park tax recently announced. I am sure we will see legislation around that before too long. We had the paper boys and we had the cleaners, and now we have a tax increase in the tobacco area. What we also know is that those who will struggle the most with this, of course\u2014the National Party had a good point, originally\u2014are those who are the poorest, because they have the least room to move. It will affect people who are poor the most, and Labour has some sympathy about that. That is why we have said that we would like the Government to undertake a review of the CPI and of how it is used to index Government payments and revenue. At the moment it is used in an inconsistent and sometimes a discriminatory way. For example, the bills that we are looking at today ensure that CPI minus tobacco is used for benefits and superannuation, yet the full CPI is used for annual excise tax increases on petrol. The full CPI continues to be used for wage negotiations, aged-care subsidies, inflation-indexed bonds, and various long-term contracts in the public and private sector. So there is an inconsistency here that we think should be examined. We will be supporting the measure today because, as I say, we know that this is an effective way to curb tobacco use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOne of the things that is deliciously ironic about all of this, of course, is that National not so long ago was trumpeting the entry and the jobs created by the Imperial Tobacco Group\u2019s expansion in Lower Hutt, not so far away. At the time, it was thought that there were going to be 50 new jobs created\u2014and, goodness knows, we could do with jobs being created in this economy. There were many, many more applications lodged for those jobs than there were places available, I understand. So we have some job growth here. Ironically, the delicious irony here is, of course, that this industry will be one of the ones that will in very short order be hit by this measure. It shows how short-sighted National\u2019s thinking is on this and other measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E Of course, when it comes to manufacturing, the real story is that the sector is contracting outside the primary products sector. Simply transformed materials in the manufacturing sector have contracted by 15 percent since 2008, in 2008 dollars, looking at the figures\u2014a full 15 percent contraction in that manufacturing sector for simply transformed products, and a 10 percent contraction in elaborately transformed areas. Perhaps tobacco products fit into the primary products process category. The statistics on overseas merchandise trade, which Statistics New Zealand puts out in its data series, suggest that primary products is one of the few areas in New Zealand where the manufacturing sector is surviving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOf course, that story is about the way in which our dairying sector carries on. Those products still have to be processed regardless of the difficulties with the high dollar that that is creating for exporters. The processing in the primary sector continues, but it is the other sectors of our economy that are really struggling. One has to wonder whether manufacturing across the board will go down if the Government continues to take a short-term view in the way it does on many issues, where it switches from one position to another. Businesses like certainty, and this issue of customs excise on tobacco is, as I say, an ironic change given Bill English\u2019s vehement opposition to a similar change under the Labour Government. It is also ironic given the touting of these few extra jobs, which, presumably, after the $45 million expansion of the plant in Lower Hutt, will now be less secure than they were before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ETo conclude, I want to say that Labour will support this legislation because, on principle, we understand and appreciate the importance of raising the price of these dangerous drugs in a way that gives people the chance over time to quit the habit. We support the measures taken to support people quitting smoking, and we hope that the one in five New Zealanders who currently smoke will find their own way out of this habit, in part because of the measures proposed in this bill and the previous measures taken by the Labour Government in its principled view on this matter. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u002223fd6c4eb1d94642a95dc6975ba3df71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223fd6c4eb1d94642a95dc6975ba3df71\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This is now, at the third reading, no longer one bill but seven. Part 2 of the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, which we have been debating over some months, is now divided into six bills around indexation of benefits, pensions, and allowances. The Green Party is going to continue to support the first bill, which, really, all of the debate has been about, until this stage today. But we will oppose the six indexation bills, and I will come to that shortly. We join others in thanking and praising the contribution of Minister Turia in bringing this to the House and steadfastly campaigning on these issues. Tobacco is, as others have said, the greatest preventable cause of harm in New Zealand. Price measures\u2014measures that increase the price\u2014are the most effective strategy for reducing consumption and, therefore, reducing harm. So the first bill here is an absolutely sensible measure. It is interesting\u2014I make the comment in passing\u2014that the same argument, in fact, applies to reducing alcohol-related harm, yet we saw the Prime Minister, in response to the Law Commission\u2019s report, immediately ruling out using price as a mechanism to reduce that harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThere have been concerns raised in previous stages of the bill, and, indeed, in the public debate, about these measures and about what the Government\u2019s intent was. Minister Turia alluded to those in her contribution today, because academics from the University of Otago raised the suggestion that the Government could dispel speculation that its primary motivation was about revenue raising by adding into the bill a purpose that made it clear that this bill was, in fact, about improving the health of New Zealanders. The Government has declined to take up that suggestion, and I think that is unfortunate because that will ensure that there will continue to be a question mark not over Minister Turia\u2019s motivation but over the motivation of the Government as a whole on this issue. That speculation has been fuelled by the fact that the particular option that was chosen by the Government from those that were offered by officials for how excise tax could be increased over time to reduce tobacco-related harm was the one that had the least positive impact on health. So it is natural for the community and, in particular, the health community to wonder about what the Government\u2019s primary motivation is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI also draw attention to the fact that this legislation will not keep tax increases to a rate that will reduce tobacco consumption to meet the Government\u2019s goal of a smoke-free Aotearoa by 2025. So what that means is that the Government is planning to fail to meet its objective in 2025. It is good to see the comments from the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I think the select committee is concerned about those matters. It is good to see the comments about possible other steps that the Government might take to help achieve that goal, but the easiest step would have been to take the suggested excise tax increases that would have put this country on a path to achieving that goal, and it is unfortunate that the Government did not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003ETreasury officials in their comments to the select committee said that the reason for choosing the excise tax increase regime of 10 percent by 10 percent by 10 percent instead of that proposed by health community groups and academics from around the country universally\u2014of an immediate increase of 40 percent in the excise tax followed by smaller increases in future years\u2014was that it was concerned about the impact that would have on low-income New Zealanders. I think we would all share a concern about a disproportionate impact on low-income New Zealanders. But when we asked Treasury officials about what modelling they had undertaken to support their conclusion on that, in fact there had not been any at all. This was just a supposition on their part. And when we asked the health groups who worked with those low-income New Zealanders or represented those low-income New Zealanders what they thought about the assumption Treasury had made, they all supported the more aggressive tax increases of an immediate 40 percent increase followed by the others. The reason they did that, they said, when we asked them about it, was that, yes, it was true that there is disproportionate cost on low-income New Zealanders but also there is a massively disproportionate benefit both in health and in the economic gains that came from that improved health. That is why they rejected the option that was chosen by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI want to come to the six indexing bills. It is certainly the case that making tobacco products more expensive reduces consumption, but the logic that the Minister has outlined in her contribution today around the justification for these six bills fails a basic mathematical test. She said it makes no sense to make tobacco products more expensive on the one hand by increasing the tax and then giving that money back by including tobacco in the indexation for those benefits and allowances and so on. Unfortunately that is not how the trade-off works. That is not the linkage between those two things. These six bills, which remove the increase in tobacco excise from the CPI for the purposes of indexation, effectively erode the incomes of all New Zealanders who receive those benefits or allowances or pensions\u2014of all of those people regardless of whether those people are smokers or non-smokers. So it applies to all of those people in a completely non-targeted way, and it erodes their income. It is not specific to tobacco at all. What it does, instead, is to relatively increase the price of everything that they spend their money on. That is what it does. It is not a trade-off in the way that Minister Turia seems to imagine that it is. Therefore, these six bills are not measures that in anyway provide an incentive to reduce tobacco consumption. What they instead do is punish the poor, and that is not an objective that the Green Party can support. So we support the first bill and we reject the other six.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002273fda142c9bc43028e3462f7c83f4c14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273fda142c9bc43028e3462f7c83f4c14\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to support this legislation, the purpose of which is to increase the excise tax to reduce smoking, to dissuade young people from being involved in smoking, and to improve the health of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on a couple of quick points. One area that the Finance and Expenditure Committee looked at was this whole question of duty-free tobacco sales, and the committee requested that the Government work to assess the compatibility of New Zealand\u2019s duty-free tobacco concession with the goal of achieving smoke-free status by 2025. I did also want to note that the evidence we have had before the committee is that for every 10 percent increase in the price, tobacco consumption falls by about 4 percent. It is very interesting to me to see that the Greens and Labour very much understand that price measures are the most powerful and that taxes affect behaviour, and I do wish that they would extend that logic and abandon their constant desire to increase taxes on a whole heap of other things\u2014work and savings\u2014and follow that logic through to the rest of their political programme. But I support this legislation. I think it will make a great difference to the lives of many New Zealanders. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea2375bae23d42a4abaabbd86a56c9f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea2375bae23d42a4abaabbd86a56c9f9\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First for the third reading of the seven bills arising from the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First will support the first bill, the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, but we oppose the six other bills in relation to indexation. In relation to this, perhaps we could just explain again for the benefit of the people out there who may be a little bit confused as to why there are seven bills wrapped into this. The other six bills basically serve to remove the CPI indexation from tobacco in terms of tobacco in relation to the CPI, so that those receiving increases in student allowances, those receiving increases in children, young persons, and their families support, those paying income tax on Working for Families support, New Zealand superannuitants, and also social security and war pensioners, who have the annual CPI adjustments, will find that they will not get the full CPI because the CPI will, under these bills, exclude tobacco from their CPI assessment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn that respect, it is somewhat discriminatory that many, many New Zealanders\u2014thousands of New Zealanders\u2014who have nothing to do with smoking and are non-smokers, in a sense, will be receiving a small amount less in their pensions because of the fact that tobacco is going up by a significant amount\u201410 percent each year\u2014but that is being removed from the equation when the CPI indexation is assessed. It is, in a sense, also penny-pinching in that this has not occurred in the past and it is most unusual for a Government to start actually pulling out and removing certain aspects of the economy in order to help balance its books. Therefore, it is being discriminatory and it is punishing many of those who can least afford even a small adjustment in the CPI indexation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis week has been the national conference of the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services Association. It is very interesting that one of the major concerns of returned servicemen and servicewomen has been the aspect of their pensions. This Government this week has announced some measures to support the war pensions review being conducted by the Law Commission. So it is somewhat ironic that while on the one hand we are trying to assist the likes of the war pensioners, and, indeed, many other pensioners, on the other hand we are penny-pinching by making a small adjustment to their CPI because of the fact of cigarettes going up in price by 10 percent per year for the next 4 years. That is somewhat disappointing, and I think was unnecessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt perhaps reflects on a Government that at the moment is having to look at every last cent to balance its books, which included, as we have referred to before, taking something like $14 million from the paper girls and paper boys of this country in a new taxation regime this year. Again, it does get back to the whole concept of the \u201CFagin Budget\u201D. When you start to actually attack those who are most at risk and those who are most vulnerable and cannot really stand up for themselves, such as the young children of this country, such as the pensioners, such as the war pensioners of this country, then it is a sad day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EPerhaps this would have not been necessary and these penny-pinching measures would not have been necessary had the Government not given the significant tax cuts to the very wealthy people of New Zealand 2 or 3 years ago, when several billions of dollars in taxes were returned to those who could certainly afford to pay their taxes, and as a result we are having to put up with these penny-pinching policies now. Certainly the head of Telecom did not need a $5,000 a week reduction in his tax, the Prime Minister did not need a $1,000 per week reduction in his tax, and many other very wealthy New Zealanders did not require those. So, in a sense, I am certainly somewhat disappointed in the country of New Zealand, where we have been known to be a world leader in our social welfare, and where we have been a pioneer in providing a good, healthy social welfare State and supporting those in need and giving them a hand up, not just a handout. But it is disappointing to see these six other aspects of this combined legislation, which is just basically attacking those in need who can least afford it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut getting back on to the actual tobacco excise side of it, New Zealand First has supported the increase of the tobacco tax, but with reservations. We have said in this House before that we hope that the $528 million that is taken over the next 4 years with the annual 10 percent increase in the excise tax is not just again put into the general big black hole, the big Treasury coffers, to try to balance the books, but that in actual fact this has been taken for the purpose of trying to reduce the levels of smoking, and trying to help people with addictions in smoking, and certainly to also assist with our health aspects in terms of those affected by smoking. In that respect, we have said in this House before and we have put it to the National benches that we in New Zealand First certainly will be monitoring it to ensure that programmes are followed through, and we certainly hope that the associate health Minister Tariana Turia will ensure that funding is put into the programmes to support all those in need of support who are afflicted by smoking. That includes education and it includes resources to help with smoking cessation programmes. It includes having innovative ideas to try to curtail the level of smoking. It also means that we will have greater education, hopefully, out of some of this funding to stop young people getting into smoking in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E We also want to ensure that there are other measures taken in terms of smoking, and it is interesting that there are still many areas within the smoking situation that are not being addressed\u2014and it was raised by the select committee\u2014such as the anomalies with duty-free cigarettes being so very cheap, and people are encouraged to bring them in. We heard stories of places, particularly the Pacific Islands and Asia, from where people are encouraged on arrival in New Zealand to buy large volumes of cigarettes for family and friends. Again, that sends the wrong message. Surely in this country, if we are trying to reduce smoking and this measure is trying to reduce the levels of addiction, then why are we not also looking at the duty-free side, which Australia, across the Tasman, has done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ETherefore, I hope the Government is not just glossing over this and is not just looking at this as one more way to make money, to make tax, out of those who can least afford it, and that it is genuinely taking this as a disincentive for people to take up or continue smoking and that it is genuinely interested in the health aspects. But we do have our doubts, and we do wonder whether the health aspects have at any stage taken any priority in all this, and whether in fact much of that $528 million will see the light of day, in terms of positive things from some of those funds. So New Zealand First will support the first bill, but will be voting against the other six bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002267e1acc5660a40d9a5475822733a4e6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267e1acc5660a40d9a5475822733a4e6b\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E It has been really an effort, because this bill, the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, is being directed at trying to improve the atmosphere around that member\u2019s environment\u2014Andrew Williams, who has just resumed his seat\u2014by pricing tobacco off his leader\u2019s budget and thereby reducing the amount of smoke that that member has to inhale by association. I think he must be impacted by too much cigarette smoke, because it is impacting on his ability to think clearly and logically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIf the Government raises $528 million by increasing the excise tax\u2014which I doubt very much because the whole idea is to drop that amount; we want to stop collecting excise tax on that by cutting out smoking\u2014that money does not go into a big black hole, Mr Williams. That money goes into providing health care for the people who are damaged by smoking. If he actually studied this issue before he got up in the House and fired off clich\u00E9 after clich\u00E9 after clich\u00E9, he would discover that in the 1920s the connection between cigarette smoking and life expectancy was beginning to be drawn. It was only around 1932 that statistical evidence began to be collected on relating smoking to lung cancer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe second error of that member\u2019s logic is to assume that increasing the excise tax is always going to go into just the Government\u2019s budget. That is not the case at all, because the Government has said: \u201COK, we\u2019re going to collect more money. We want people to stop smoking. We\u2019re going to put $20 million over 4 years into smoking cessation and helping people to stop smoking.\u201D I think that the policies are working very well. I pick up the point that my colleague the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Todd McClay, mentioned, which is the really significant drop in young people smoking\u2014from 15.6 percent smoking every day in 1999, down to 4 percent in 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI would like to make just one point to the House as I conclude my support for this legislation. Recently I was watching some basketball players at the ASB Sports Centre at the bottom of Cobham Drive, and I heard the young people calling out the term of derision \u201Csmoker\u201D to their colleagues who muffed calls in the game. It was really fascinating for me to listen to these young people abusing their colleagues, using this foul word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI have no hesitation in supporting this bill. As an ex-smoker and sometime smoker myself I know how hard it is to give up. But those people across in the Labour Party know about this business of raising excise taxes. I can remember one Arnold Nordmeyer, who had his famous Black Budget. The next day my father stopped smoking, because of that tax grab. This is not a tax grab. This is an inducement to the community to stop smoking by 2025. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00220de9549687c343b7a7a38ec9275d3208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220de9549687c343b7a7a38ec9275d3208\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to rise and speak to the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill and six other bills. We will be supporting these bills. I think it is important to point out the overall ambition of these bills, and that is ultimately smoking cessation, as we understand it. It is an increase in excise that is intended ultimately to have some public health good. There is an estimate, though, that this legislation will raise an additional, as I understand it, $528 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e7b071a4044dfa864c7992237872fc\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Over 4 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ea904cfd28541ca985703539f84d736\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014over 4 years. But I think it is important to clarify that at least on this side of the House it is the public health measures\u2014the public good that is done by trying to reduce smoking amongst our communities\u2014that drive our support ultimately for this bill and the other bills. But is that what is driving the National Government, when it comes to its support of this legislation? I think probably the easiest way to give us some sense of what is motivating the Government and driving it on these matters is voting record. That usually is indicative of where a political party\u2019s ideological views, you could say, or you could say values, stand on these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhen we look at Labour\u2019s history and record when it comes to smoking and smoking cessation, I think it is a record that we can certainly stand on with some pride. That is, of course, because not only did we focus on excise as a way to address the issue but also we looked at how you create culture change. I think that one of the most significant moves in that regard was the legislation that was pursued and defended and rigorously developed by Steve Chadwick. That was, I remember at the time, extraordinarily controversial\u2014the idea of removing the ability to smoke in bars and restaurants. It certainly came under heavy scrutiny externally from those in industry obviously, but also from some in the hospitality industry. There was a view that it would bring down tourism, hospitality\u2014all sorts of messages were thrown around. But because our main driver was the public good and the public health good of these measures, we pursued them with vigour. Obviously there is always risk attached when you do pursue such matters in that way, but it was the right thing to do and I do believe it has made a significant difference. I have got nothing more than my anecdotal experience to say that I think it has made one of the most significant differences in recent times to shifting our culture, to shifting the amount certainly that people are smoking, but overall to try to move us closer to a smoke-free New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt is estimated that half of all long-term smokers die of a smoking-related illness, and about 5,000 deaths each year in New Zealand are directly attributable to smoking or second-hand smoke. It is unlike any other substance almost that we regulate in New Zealand, because we know of its dire consequences. That does give it a slight difference than alcohol. But I will come back to that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut let us look at National\u2019s record on these matters when we took extraordinary urgency to increase the excise on tobacco in May 2000. Bill English\u2014well, the National Party\u2014voted against those measures. But Bill English specifically said, when defending his reasoning for not having voted for those measures: \u201CThe reason we voted against this measure was that the Government did not ever say that it would do it, and that is the measure it set\u2014not us. The Government did not say before the election that it would do it\u2014that is the Government\u2019s standard, not ours. It is a tax increase. It is a tax on the poorest people in New Zealand, it is an increase that is far too large, and that is why we voted against it.\u201D I want to try a little experiment here. Let us pretend that instead of this being a quote about an excise tax increase on cigarettes, and instead of this being a quote given by a National member, let us turn it into a quote about GST increases, and let us turn it into something said potentially by a member of the Opposition. I think you would find that it probably would hold: \u201CThe Government did not say before the election that it would do it. It is a tax increase. It is a tax on the poorest people in New Zealand. It is an increase that is far too large.\u201D I think that would be a much more fitting quote for the National Government\u2019s increase in GST than it would be for an increase on excise around tobacco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAnd when it comes to increases in excise, here is an interesting point. Are those things that one campaigns on? Well, there is a reason why excise in many forms is often debated under urgency\u2014you know, last year\u2019s sherry taxes, alcohol taxes. There is a reason: you try not to encourage the enormous uptake of purchasing before you move an excise in a particular direction. It is a really practical reason. It is interesting, I think, that Bill English has, though, exposed at that time, and perhaps even now, where the National Government sits on these issues. Is it a tax grab? I would like to be slightly more generous than that. One thing I do know is that I have absolutely no doubt that the M\u0101ori Party has made a significant difference to the National Government\u2019s positioning on smoking. It absolutely has, and credit where credit is due. If Tariana Turia in particular was not driving this agenda on that side of the House, I doubt we would have seen the measures that we have seen. Certainly, plain packaging of cigarettes is an issue that Tony Ryall was very dismissive of\u2014very dismissive. And, I think, when you pull out the record of the Government on issues like that, it certainly exposes not only the Government\u2019s lack of commitment overall but also the difference that a coalition partner has made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne of the questions I want to ask is this: if we know that higher prices are one of the most effective tobacco control measures that we have, can we transfer that reasoning and rationale to the debate around alcohol? Both substances are associated with known harms. Obviously, in cigarettes from the first smoke to the 10th smoke there is harm, whereas with alcohol we are debating questions often of moderation, but you could argue there is immediate harm depending on your age and your station and so on, depending on who is consuming. Why, then, are we not having the same discussion around the difference that price points make for alcohol? Well, there is only one reason why we are not having that debate. It is that the Government does not want us to have that debate, and we should be having it. If the alcohol legislation that the Government is bringing before this House is the substantive opportunity that we have in this lifetime to change this nation\u2019s culture around alcohol, as with smoking, price should at least have been part of the discussion. It should have at least been debated. The idea that we need to collect more data, I am afraid, just does not hold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut I want to acknowledge how far we have moved in this debate\u2014how far even in my generation. I recall when I was at school, for instance, that my basketball coach\u2014I did at some point engage in team sports, which is something that would be known to be unusual, if anyone knows me\u2014told me that at one period during his life his doctor had prescribed him cigarette smoking as a way to deal with anxiety issues. He had prescribed cigarette smoking! That was my high school teacher. We have moved, and we have come a long way, but we must make sure that we do not lose our drive around dealing with this significant issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe one final thing I wish to say is that we are dealing with CPI adjustment in this bill in a piecemeal way. Labour believes that the Government needs to undertake a review of the CPI and how it is used to index Government payments and revenue, rather than fiddle with it in an ad hoc and potentially discriminatory way. I am pleased to be seeing a little more proactivity at this point, and I hope we will be seeing a lot more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00224e3cab10041f4f59a2747a51bf6700f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e3cab10041f4f59a2747a51bf6700f7\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E The Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill is a good bill. It is important that we see the other parties vote for it. I was very disappointed to see their speeches though, like that last speech, which try to condemn the theory behind what has been happening in this area. But it is something that all New Zealanders wish to see, that we look after the health of our fellow citizens. This mechanism of using the customs and excise on tobacco products is a means to send the right signals out there and, hopefully, encourage people to not engage in this activity going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt is easier said than done. There are a lot of cultural and historical factors and advertising that go into these products, which set people on that course. But as a Government we are making endeavours to try to challenge those behaviours in the best interests of the individuals and also of our country going forward. This is good legislation, and we thank all those people who have been involved in getting it to this stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221249e04885b04ebaab819162d8f9e159\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221249e04885b04ebaab819162d8f9e159\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Any further speakers? The question is that the motion\u2014[Interruption] I call Andrew Little. It is a split call\u20145 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b14a3124341449e494892bf013cb8552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b14a3124341449e494892bf013cb8552\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is just a brief contribution to the debate on the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, and the associated legislation. As my colleagues have said, Labour supports this legislation on the grounds of the contribution it will make to health and to public health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ELabour has always been at the forefront of measures to improve health through reductions and disincentives for smoking. We led the way, for example, with the smoke-free workplaces legislation back in 1990, and then with the extension of that to virtually every other public place, or place where the public gathers, with the smoke-free environments legislation in the 2000s. They were very important measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThey were difficult measures because, certainly for a lot of working people, having a smoke was seen as a reasonably cheap way of doing something that was pleasurable and luxurious, and as somewhat of an acceptable vice. But the truth is that, as we know, smoking has made an enormous contribution to negative health effects across New Zealand. Smoking was the source, or the cause, of cancers, of throat cancers, of lung cancers and many others, of hypertension, and of a range of other medical conditions. So those measures were necessary. If we wanted to address those health issues, we had to do something about smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe reality is, we now know, that when it comes to activities that come with a patina of social acceptability\u2014like smoking\u2014if you increase the price of them, you reduce the level to which the activity is subscribed to, and there are improved health effects. That is why, as some of my colleagues have raised too, it is so disappointing that this Government can see the implications and the benefits from increasing the price of a social activity that has negative effects like smoking, but it will not do the same thing when it comes to the social activity, or at least the social drug, of alcohol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe know that alcohol has extraordinarily negative health effects. We know that price will have an impact. We know what the research says and what the Law Commission tells us, but there is no corresponding gesture from the Government when it comes to addressing those health issues through legislating for minimum pricing on alcohol. That is just an inconsistency that we are going to have to grapple with, and deal with, as a House. The citizenry of New Zealand look to this House for leadership. They see leadership on the smoking issue and on the measures that we take to reduce smoking and improve our health performance. They see us taking leadership here today with this legislation. What a pity they have not so far seen us taking it on the measures to do with alcohol, but that debate is yet to be concluded, and maybe\u2014and we live in hope\u2014there will be change in that regard as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAs I said, Labour has always been ahead on smoking issues. I remember when the smoke-free workplaces legislation was first introduced. It caused issues for employers and for their workforces, and they had to negotiate their way to manage that. I remember representing many airport workers at Auckland Airport back in the 1990s when they were prohibited from smoking in the workplace. They had to duck out the back, as so many did, for a quick shoofty in the dark, dim, cold, barren places, corners that most employers had in their workplaces. What they found at Auckland Airport, of course, was that travelling passengers, particularly those from Asian origins, who had flown for 11 or 12 hours across the continent and into New Zealand were desperate for a smoke, and special provision was made to have a special smoking room in the Auckland International Airport. Great problems were caused when the great clouds of smoke went up in the international terminal. All the workers there who were hanging out, frankly, for their smoke could not partake of it even though the passengers travelling through the airport could. It is interesting to see now that that smoking room has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat was one measure that was taken, but the reality is that the underlying health problems that we still have with smoking have needed the last hurdle to be leapt, and that is the price hurdle. This legislation will do that. It will have a significant impact on reducing smoking and improving health effects. We will have to nurse those remaining dedicated, committed, and, some would say, of course, addicted smokers through it, because they will have a negative response, but the long-term effect will be good. It will be good for the youngsters in our community and for the diehards who will have to work their way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b20a52f058714e4888a2db2314804107\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b20a52f058714e4888a2db2314804107\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Other Government members have detailed the excellent measures within the Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, and I commend the Associate Minster of Health Tariana Turia for her excellent work in this area. I commend too the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Todd McClay, who has done an outstanding job of shepherding through some of the people who, for example, think that smoking is good for you and say that they enjoy it. There is one in particular on the Finance and Expenditure Committee who has taken a fairly mischievous outlook on this all the way through, but let us not relitigate all of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI think that this bill in its third reading actually does all that it sets out to do. [Interruption] OK, two of them smoke; that is true. This is an excellent bill. We know that 80 percent of people who smoke wish they had never begun. Once people are addicted, once they begin the process, it is a very, very difficult thing to give up. As W C Fields said: \u201CSmoking is easy to give up. I\u2019ve done it thousands of times.\u201D It is a difficult process, but we in this Government are unashamedly encouraging smokers to quit. For every 10 percent increase in the price, tobacco consumption falls by 4 percent. That is good enough for me. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise (Tobacco Products\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022399b2c9ffd6f4635afbce0b5efd96c21\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000481\u0022\u003EEducation (Student Allowances Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000482\u0022\u003EIncome Tax (Working for Families Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022380db035feff4f889bd7169092b81290\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229f7e491d6f474deeaada4520f3bc542f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Social Security (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002263106b587e1642d59935d6e2f6ad0a47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the War Pensions (Indexation\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a81f75ccd9074385ba2e7bdbf2d2b57d\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0976106bccb4748829f311d51143b50\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000484\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 September on the Commerce (International Co-operation, and Fees) Amendment Bill, the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill, the Fair Trading (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill, and the Telecommunications (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u00225aded9257f434e4d909110f6e18855f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225aded9257f434e4d909110f6e18855f2\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am destined to have breaks in my speech\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and I am sure that keeps members opposite entertained, especially Mr Maurice Williamson. Just to reiterate, the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Bill was originally introduced by my colleague the Hon Lianne Dalziel. It was adopted by Simon Power, and now the Hon Craig Foss. It was reported back from the Commerce Committee in November 2010, and it has languished on the Order Paper, but it is good to see the legislation arising from it back here in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe proposals of the legislation are part of the work programme supporting the memorandum of understanding on business law coordination with Australia\u2014therefore, the legislation aligns the systems of the two countries\u2014where similar legislation was passed in 2007. So, finally, in 2013, we do catch up with Australia on this matter. The legislation certainly expects to facilitate greater reciprocal assistance from equivalent overseas regulators, which is increasingly important for the effective enforcement of competition and consumer law where businesses operate in multiple jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWhat is interesting for me in this legislation is that there are now provisions about cooperation and the flexible way in which we will engage in that cooperative relationship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d9f99bbc444de1b1f24e0fbc1a3b0a\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is my third go at it, and it feels like a bit of a conspiracy. Two weeks ago, I was given 1\u00BD minutes, and a couple of hours ago I was given another 2\u00BD minutes. This is the third go. But it is good that I have the chance to finish what I was going to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EAs I said, the Commerce (International Co-operation, and Fees) Amendment Bill is a bill that we support. It puts in place some very good provisions around cooperation with Australia to give meat, if you like, to the memorandum of understanding that has been signed. The bit here that is of interest to me is the cooperation arrangements that the bill proposes. That seems to be the flavour of the provisions in the bill\u2014in all of the bills now, as the bill has been broken up into four. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ESo it is the desire here to get regulators to cooperate to manage competition and consumer effects of transactions on domestic markets. And then in the legislation there are the provisions about how information that has been acquired compulsorily on this side of the Tasman is then to be shared with regulators across the board. That is provided for, and further down in the legislation there are some safeguards that are built in about the sharing of this information. Indeed, it says very clearly and very directly that the matters of maintaining confidentiality of information, the storage of information, the copying, returning, and disposal of anything that is provided, and the payment costs are some of the provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is good to see in the bills those kinds of provisions put in place. So the point here is about information sharing and maintaining the confidentiality of information. But I have to say that this is not a good week, if you like, to have a look at\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ed20da09626489a8ad3b54e98075644\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s a great week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fdfe7385e444429929ff49eb713c06e\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bridges will soon realise exactly what I am talking about. Mr Bridges, it is about maintaining the confidentiality of information. So for the member\u2019s Government this has been a bad week, where information that should have been well protected was actually made available accidentally. So there you are, Mr Bridges. I say that his Government now has a bad record, and, therefore, I am glad that this part of the legislation is here. But I hope that his Government can deliver on it, because the kind of information that is collected around credit and around payments etc. is really highly confidential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMr Bridges has gone quiet. I am pleased he has, because he acknowledges that there are some holes in the Government\u2019s commitment to protecting information and protecting privacy in that way. So those provisions are here. The Government has had a bad week. It has got a lot of work to get through to regain the confidence of the public around information and around maintaining the confidentiality of information. These bills enable that type of information collected here to be treated in a confidential manner when it is to be shared with our counterparts in Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThere are many warnings from the recent experiences that the Government has had around ACC and around the Ministry of Social Development just a few days ago about information. So with those kinds of statements, those kinds of anxieties we have about confidentiality of information, we are pleased to be supporting these bills. I am glad that I finally got to finish my last comments without interruption. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u002278874791e19e4062b027b35f7911a74c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278874791e19e4062b027b35f7911a74c\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E May I just, in beginning, compliment Dr Prasad on his perseverance in getting through his contribution. It has been a long haul. I am pleased to take a final call on these bills: the Commerce (International Co-operation, and Fees) Amendment Bill, the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill, the Fair Trading (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill, and the Telecommunications (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill, which have evolved or, rather, been derived from the original Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Bill. We have been happy to support that bill throughout its rather extended journey through this House\u2014some 4 years, coming on 5 years. We were happy to support the division into the four bills that we are discussing collectively tonight. It was an appropriate and a sensible thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIn his opening remarks, the Minister of Consumer Affairs on behalf of the Minister of Commerce pointed out some of the features of these bills as they emerged collectively; initially, that they are intended to enhance cooperation between our Commerce Commission and its Australian counterpart, and, indeed, the consumer and the anti-competitive regulatory bodies in other countries. That is an entirely appropriate and sensible thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the notion of cooperation is emerging much more in business. Competition has its place, of course, and anti-competitive behaviour ought not to be tolerated, but, equally, in the evolving and emerging language in the business sector there is much more recognition that in a small country a high level of inter-business cooperation and collaboration is a good thing. Indeed, I think that notion can extend. That notion of cooperation can even extend across the Tasman, given that New Zealand and Australia have some combined economic interests, clearly, as well as having our independent sovereign interests. But, equally, we should recognise that the notion of collaboration is an extremely powerful place to start looking to do business and to do well economically as well as in other ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe bills contain the notion of reciprocity\u2014that all participants, be they in bilateral or multilateral arrangements, should benefit. Again, that is entirely sensible and appropriate, otherwise what would be the motivation for other countries to participate? The notion of flexibility, that these bills allow for both Government to Government and regulator to regulator relationships to be built up over time and for action to be taken at that level, was particularly important. It is a long time ago now, but I recall that the Commerce Committee looked at the issue of regulator to regulator engagement, and to some extent that was based on recognising that otherwise we could find ourselves in the situation where the commission was having to deal, potentially, with half a dozen different state Governments in Australia. That simply was not feasible. There was no point to not creating this other flexibility and these other flexible arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAs I said, the Greens have supported the original bill throughout its extended journey. Our only concerns initially were about the issue of the regulatory powers that allowed for an exemption in terms of the fees. We had some suspicions about that, but I can say that they were allayed through the select committee process. Clearly, the intention is that the exemption may be applied to small to medium sized enterprises, recognising that it is not appropriate to put on a small to medium sized business the same burden or cost as that put on a larger concern, a large corporate, that is very likely trading across the Tasman anyway. We think that is a very good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI hope that that continues\u2014that the Government continues to have regard for the well-being of the small to medium sized enterprises sector. I have to say that within the sector there is a great deal of concern that such support for small to medium sized enterprises seems to be conspicuous by its absence from this Government\u2014notably, for example, a week or so ago at a gathering of 150-odd small to medium sized enterprises at the Small Business Summit. I was there for the third time and a third year. Labour sent a senior MP; a former Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ERegrettably, the Government did not seem to be able to produce a person despite the fact that the organisation organising this event for the 150-plus small to medium sized enterprises actually shifted the date of the event to accommodate the diary of the Minister for Small Business, who, nevertheless, could not manage to be there, and nor could one single member of this National-led Government, which is quite extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThese bills do give some consideration to the small to medium sized enterprises and to the small business sector, and that has been, as I said, notable by its absence in many other contexts. The Government seems to have no interest in this sector, which provides over 30 percent of employment in New Zealand and contributes something like 40 percent of value-added production in New Zealand. Small to medium sized enterprises make up something like 97 percent of all of the enterprises in New Zealand, so their collective contribution is extraordinary. And we do hope that the contribution, or the acknowledgment, of the small to medium sized enterprise sector and its special character\u2014which this legislation, which is about to become law, does recognise; these Acts, as they soon will be\u2014will not be entirely overlooked by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EHaving said that, it is not entirely an issue, because the Greens are very, very happy to pick up the cudgels, to become the champions of small to medium sized enterprises, because, after all, even our largest companies started out as small businesses. The Greens are very pleased and very happy to be involved in supporting small to medium sized enterprises, helping them down a sustainability path, and helping them to become contributing members of our economy, to our environmental well-being, and to our social well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESo although this Government seems to have lost its way in supporting small to medium sized enterprises, the Greens are very happy to pick up that task and continue it. So with those few comments, as I say, we will continue to support the progress of this legislation, and we look forward to it being passed into law. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd2e4a1b70a04671bb125a189733c78e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd2e4a1b70a04671bb125a189733c78e\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak on the third readings of the legislation arising from the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Bill. It is legislation that will be welcome. It enables greater cooperation between the Commerce Commission and our Australian counterparts, as well as other overseas regulators. The legislation is particularly important because it advances the single economic market outcomes framework that was announced by our Prime Minister, John Key, as well as Prime Minister Rudd in 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWhat this legislation does is it allows for better trans-Tasman enforcement of competition and consumer laws. It enables the commission to share information with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and other regulators. It will support the work that we have been doing around consumer law reform, which is also proceeding through this House. It is about international cooperation between our regulators and our foreign counterparts. It is legislation that will be good for commerce, good for our country, and good for jobs and opportunities here. I support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022674fee44db9644a382fd3f9c684369df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022674fee44db9644a382fd3f9c684369df\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak on the bills arising from the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First is supporting this legislation. We supported the original bill through the first and second readings and now we support the third readings of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAs we have heard, the primary objective of the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Amendment Bill was introduced on 9 September 2008, so it has taken a long time to get to this point. It is somewhat disturbing that it has taken 4 years to get through the legislative process when it does provide some assistance in terms of our Commerce Commission and dealing with its associate in Australia, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. So it is somewhat disappointing that it has taken this amount of time for that cooperation to be confirmed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E The new powers will also affect the Commerce Act, the Fair Trading Act, and the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act, so they do have some ramifications for those Acts, as well. The main thing in terms of this legislation is the reciprocity, and the main justification for this legislation is that any assistance that is provided to the commission is then reciprocated with its sister organisation in Australia. This is achieved by requiring formal cooperation arrangements to be in place before the commission can offer any investigative assistance or information. Every such agreement must provide for the commission and the overseas regulator to provide information and assistance to each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe concept of reciprocity between regulators is important. It should go without saying that the commission should not dedicate its time and limited resources to assisting an overseas regulator unless there is something to be gained by it and New Zealand consumers. The commission\u2019s core function is to promote competition in markets for the benefit of New Zealanders. There are some safeguards in this. New Zealand firms already complain of the sluggishness of the commission to reach decisions for mergers and other investigations. For them, a diversion of the commission\u2019s limited resources away from its core function would be unwelcome. This legislation provides some safeguards in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ECooperation arrangements must consider the potential consequences for New Zealand consumers and businesses of providing compulsorily acquired information or investigative assistance to the overseas regulator. The Minister must also have regard to the legal framework around the use of the information in that foreign jurisdiction. This should alleviate concerns that information obtained in New Zealand may be used in another jurisdiction in a manner inconsistent with New Zealand\u2019s legal principles. The legislation also provides for the commission to seek payment from an overseas regulator of any costs it incurs in assisting. Again, that is a good move so that we are not just doing things in the freebie situation, and so that there are charges incurred, and therefore they will be genuine inquiries that come from any sister organisations from other jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe legislation seeks to better equip regulators both here and overseas to detect and deter anti-competitive behaviour. The proposed powers represent a significant inroad into international law concepts about the extraterritorial reach of domestic legislation and the powers of domestic regulators. This legislation overcomes international difficulties by providing an alternative and, some may say, back-door route for obtaining international legislative documents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWhere information is to be provided to an overseas regulator, the commission must advise any person to whom it relates about that, unless disclosure compromises the overseas regulators or the commission\u2019s investigation. In practice it is likely that the commission could, if it so wished, often argue disclosure would prejudice an investigation. For example, it may tip off a company that an overseas regulator is investigating a particular industry, or, if the information has been received pursuant to a leniency application, it could reveal the identity or existence of the whistleblower. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe legislation also contains provisions to expressly protect privileged documents the commission receives from overseas regulators and vice versa. Existing agreements are already in place with some countries, such as Canada, the United Kingdom, and Taiwan. These provide for cooperation on certain matters, including coordinating enforcement activities and exchanging non-compulsorily acquired information, or with the consent of the providing party. The legislation is an acknowledgment, however, that without compulsorily acquired information being able to be shared, mutual cooperation is somewhat limited. These existing arrangements will likely need to be amended to incorporate the new proposed powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAs to the timing of the change, this has been a long gestation, as I said before\u2014since 2008. It has taken 4 years. The Australian legislators have already enacted this some considerable time ago, so we have been lagging in terms of our response to this. This is overdue. New Zealand First supports this legislation. We have said we support good policy when it is put up by the Government. This is good policy. It is very sad that it is long overdue policy, but it does certainly give more strength to the Commerce Commission to this country, and across the Tasman with its sister organisation, to ensure that there is good practice in terms of our economy. New Zealand First supports this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u00222f6ca1e507234dbfb9d739827da6c00d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f6ca1e507234dbfb9d739827da6c00d\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to stand and support this legislation arising from the original Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Bill at the third reading. The legislation leads to increasing economic performance because its main aim is to facilitate and increase cooperation between New Zealand\u2019s Commerce Commission and its counterparts in other parts of the world, particularly the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and other regulators in Australia. Needless to say, the end beneficiary of this simplified process will be the end consumer, as the process will promote competition and fair trading in the domestic market, which will result in lower prices, more choice, and, of course, better consumer protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EFor a small trading nation that exports almost 85 percent of what we produce, it is critical that we build good relationships, and that rules and regulations are agreed by our trading partners so that we can compete on a level playing field. This legislation makes it simpler for New Zealand businesses to operate in international markets and economies that have the same type of international laws and regulations as we have in New Zealand. I sincerely feel that this legislation will serve as a big help to our exporters and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022e29fc6ed31a54074bd3be9449d4a104b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e29fc6ed31a54074bd3be9449d4a104b\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the third readings of these cognate commerce bills. As my colleagues have said, we support the original bill, the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Amendment Bill, which has been divided into the following bills in the Committee of the whole House: the Commerce (International Co-operation, and Fees) Amendment Bill, the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill, the Fair Trading (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill, and the Telecommunications (International Co-operation) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs many people have observed, the original bill was introduced by that excellent Minister of Commerce of the former Labour Government the Hon Lianne Dalziel way back in 2008\u2014a long, long time ago. It was adopted by Simon Power, who has now gone elsewhere, and now we have Craig Foss. It was reported back from the Commerce Committee in November 2010. Since then we have had a general election, and here we are now in 2012. Finally, after seeing the bill languishing on the Order Paper for some time, we are finally getting to what we agree are very good bills that need to be passed tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIt is very instructive to look at the report from the select committee, which, as I said, reported back in 2010, and to look at exactly what the process was. It is hard to see, looking at that, why this legislation has been so difficult to pass. There were seven submissions from interested groups and individuals, and the committee heard two submissions. So this was hardly controversial. There was a high level of agreement around this legislation. There was also, of course, advice from the Ministry of Consumer Affairs and the Ministry of Economic Development, which has, since then, gone through a whole other evolution. What is it called these days? Is it the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014something like that? Yes, it has gone into a whole new thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI was also interested in the select committee membership way back then. It is a bit of a who\u2019s who of who was in the ACT Party in 2010 and who is no longer here. There was John Boscawen. I do not have a problem with John Boscawen. He has gone on to better things, I am sure. He was on the select committee. Hilary Calvert had a very, very short career in Parliament, actually. I think my abiding memory of Hilary Calvert is that\u2014you know, I cannot do it\u2014that clown face, that clown thing, that she did in Parliament. You know, that was her face\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f4d46001c148c8a5f67a1258437dd0\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Nah, nah, nah, it was the building with her eyes on top.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e13f10ef3a12468fb3a475e1e56ff668\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. Yes, that is right, the building with her eyes on top. That is right: \u201CThis is not a sex shop\u201D. That is the one. Also Sir Roger Douglas, the Hon Sir Roger Douglas, was on the select committee. As I said, this is a bit of history that we are debating tonight in these third readings\u2014a bit of history. We are looking back to some honourable members who were here for either a long time or a short time, or who came back after a career when perhaps they should not have. I could probably make some analogies about current ACT members, but I will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe proposals in this legislation are part of the work programme supporting the Memorandum of Understanding on Coordination of Business Law with Australia. The legislation aligns us with Australia, which passed similar legislation in 2007. I do have to say that it is really nice to be debating legislation in the third reading where we actually are aligning ourselves with Australia. Apart from the promises that we had from John Key in the 2008 and 2011 elections, and the 2025 Taskforce, which was all about catching up with Australia\u2014remember that? Half a million dollars went to Don Brash and friends to make recommendations about how New Zealand was going to catch up with Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOf course, the only thing that has caught up is this legislation. That is evident. We certainly have not caught up with wages; we are dragging way, way behind Australia. John Key\u2019s famous hoarding during the 2008 election campaign, \u201CWave Goodbye to Higher Taxes. Not Your Loved Ones.\u201D, has become a joke. He has become a laughing stock, because day by day, week by week, month by month, and year by year tens of thousands of our kids, our best and brightest, are going to Australia. Actually, a lot of them are in the 18-30 year age group, so we are losing a lot of young people to Australia. So that promise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022081f5739bddd4e2e8ae0bf4ab0e8d92c\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: I saw you on telly tonight, having a laugh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2571aa023e9434889f82b7a573a8780\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right, I did. I like laughing, and I certainly like laughing when we talk about catching up with Australia. So it is really good, as I said, to have some things that we can talk about where we are aligning with Australia, even though it passed similar legislation in 2007, which is a long time ago. It just reminds us of the dragging that this legislation has taken. Five years later here we are at the third readings, passing this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe legislation is expected to facilitate greater reciprocal assistance from equivalent overseas regulators. This is increasingly important for effective enforcement of competition and consumer law where businesses operate in multiple jurisdictions. That is an increasing issue, as people are aware. We support what this legislation does with this, but I think there are other issues that over time we will need to address\u2014issues around similar jurisdictions, and particularly the relationship between New Zealand and Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EHow often do we have people talking to us about the job they do here compared with the job they do in Australia, where the wages are so much higher? They ask how that is fair and why it is different. We have this relationship with Australia, we have had this treaty with Australia for so long, yet New Zealand seems to be positioning itself as a low-wage country. So it is really good that we are going to be able to enforce competition in consumer law, and protect people where businesses do operate in multiple jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe legislation will allow Government to Government cooperation arrangements or regulator to regulator arrangements, subject to ministerial approval. That was inserted by the select committee. I think that is probably a really good thing, although I always have reservations about ministerial approval, as well. But it is another check and balance that probably needed to be added to this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to read the select committee report. In submissions the Commerce Committee requested that this legislation also apply to information gathered under the Telecommunications Act. Obviously, that was a big discussion at the select committee. Telecom and Vodafone opposed the inclusion of the regulations that were included in the Australian legislation, but this has been included by way of a Supplementary Order Paper. We support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe select committee has also recommended a consultative procedure where the commission is concerned that a request for assistance might have significant international trade implications. The commission may consult the Minister of Trade, after consultation with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and then rely on a statement by the Minister of Trade as to whether providing the information or assistance would significantly prejudice New Zealand\u2019s international trade interests. That is a good provision, because it is looking out for New Zealand\u2019s international trade interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe hope, certainly, that our negotiators on the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement are looking out for New Zealand\u2019s international trade interests as well as our sovereignty interests. And we will wait with interest and some anticipation that the Government will do what it says it will do. When it comes to that particular trade agreement, there is a lot of concern about this. However, there is a flexible regime that will come about because of this bill. It facilitates enhanced cooperation between the commission and overseas regulators, and it seeks to do this while ensuring that there are appropriate safeguards in place to address public interest considerations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ESo all in all I think the Commerce Commission, the select committee, and others have done a very good job on this bill. There will be new powers for the Commerce Commission\u2014statutory powers\u2014but they can be used only in relation to enforcement and adjudication in New Zealand. There are legal constraints on the provision to overseas regulators of confidential compulsorily acquired information already held by the commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EMost overseas regulators consider the likelihood of reciprocity as a factor in determining whether to provide assistance or information to the commission. As I said when I started out, Labour supports these cognate commerce bills. We are pleased that we have finally got to the third readings of these bills. We are pleased that we are finally passing this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b60892737b47b195a6104e395c261d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: After all these years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204c37ba20c3944d3ac9c29370e10a39d\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E\u2014after all these years\u2014and the excellent work done by the Hon Lianne Dalziel, not only as a Minister but also as a chair of the Commerce Committee. It is very fulfilling to see that the work of the former Labour Government is coming to fruition at last. Labour is very pleased to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002231085263267b459bb8e8653ac7643947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231085263267b459bb8e8653ac7643947\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on this, the third reading of the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Bill. It is very important for this country that our export and trading sector continues to grow. This bill is just part of the Government\u2019s bigger programme\u2014an aspirational programme\u2014for the future growth of New Zealand and for futureproofing New Zealand for our younger generations coming through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EEighty percent of our economy is actually small to medium sized businesses, and many of those will look to markets like Australia to want to grow into. Often they will look at the barriers and the risks associated with entering a new market like Australia. The great thing about this bill is that it actually removes a lot of those risks and a lot of those barriers for them. I am confident that with a bill like this we will see more of our businesses wishing to take the step into a new market like Australia, and continuing to help the country to grow. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002228a3afb24e33405c9913a59af53c81fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228a3afb24e33405c9913a59af53c81fb\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a split call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f422adc86f4f7b97d0facc2210d524\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It is, Mr Speaker\u20145 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ab8284814374c399a6db424ea98324e\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00224f1ee350d5234c61b73b238134651286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f1ee350d5234c61b73b238134651286\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a quick call on the cognate commerce bills and in particular this telecommunications aspect. The Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Bill was originally introduced by Lianne Dalziel. It was adopted by Simon Power and now Craig Foss. So it has got quite a history, and I know that none among us with any right mind would wish to disagree with the work of those three eminent parliamentarians. Of course, Labour is supporting this legislation through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis legislation is part of a broader programme of work to iron out some little crinkles in the business relationship with the \u201CWest Island\u201D, and based on this progress we hope very much that we are going to address bigger and brighter things like dividend imputation in the near future. We expect that the legislation is going to facilitate greater reciprocal assistance from overseas regulators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is very, very important that our Commerce Commission, which plays a key role in the regulation of markets, is able to access experience from across the Ditch. The reasons for that are several. One is that we are a small island market and our experience across different industry sectors is\u2014oh look, Mr Speaker, I know the House is going to be delighted by this news. I have just been advised that I can now speak for the full 10 minutes, so I am going to detruncate the remarks. What I would like to do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c245e53943324132a1eda288b02d61dc\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Could you spend a little bit more time praising the former Minister and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b0dcabd094346869b7264aeafcb2d81\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Now that I have longer to praise the former Minister the Hon Lianne Dalziel\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210dab63ebd724f52bd86f100bdf068c5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: And the chair of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e05c2614dd40d6bc178d5dfdb160f0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the chair of the select committee? No, in all seriousness let us get back to the topic, which is the importance of having coordination between the regulators on both sides of the Ditch. Why is that important? In a syllable it is because the businesses are coordinated, because they are cross-owned. If you are dealing with telecommunications companies like Telstra and TelstraClear, just as a random example, or Griffin\u2019s Foods, or Heinz-Wattie, or anyone, even Vodafone, which is a multinational, any of those companies, of course, has a footprint on both sides of the Tasman. They are global businesses in many cases, and in the eternal game between poacher and gamekeeper it is very important that the gamekeepers have access to the same global resources and information as the poachers, and that is why it is important that our regulators are unified across the Tasman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo there will be greater reciprocal assistance from the regulators across the Ditch allowing more Government to Government cooperation arrangements and regulator to regulator arrangements. This might not sound very important to the people out there in TV land, but what it means is, in the telecommunications sector, for example, a better chance of getting cheaper, faster broadband. Pretty simple. If the companies concerned are held to a more competitive market standard it means the price you will pay for your phone bills at home will go down. The data caps you get on your internet will go up, and that is a good thing. The regulators on both sides of the Tasman will be able to hold the market to account. And as the companies concerned are global companies operating on both sides of the Ditch, it is very important that the regulators are able to work across both sides of the Ditch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Committee has recommended a consultative procedure where the committee is concerned that a request for assistance might have significant international trade implications. The commission can consult the Minister of Trade after consultation with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and then rely on a statement by the Minister as to whether providing the information would significantly prejudice New Zealand\u2019s international trade interest. It is not easy to think of an actual example where this would be an issue, but it is a safety valve. Let us imagine that the regulators on both sides of the Ditch want to swap information about a particular business. The proposal exists, as a result of the select committee\u2019s work, for the Minister to say no. As long as it is within the international trade rules the Minister can deem that that would be severely prejudicial to the interests of a New Zealand company and can thereby say: \u201CNo. We don\u2019t think that\u2019s a good idea.\u201D That seems like a reasonably practical thing for us to insert into the legislation just to make sure that Kiwi companies do not get rolled over by their larger \u201CKangaroo\u201D competitors. That is a reasonable safety valve to have in there, I think. We ought to acknowledge the select committee for its work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI think it is probably relevant and fair at this point to note the change that has occurred under the current Government in the trans-Tasman trade liberalisation negotiations. Under the previous Government the standard to which New Zealand negotiators were held was to do what was in the interests of the New Zealand public and the New Zealand economy. In the last round of the single economic market negotiations that standard was amended, and it is now for the negotiators to do what is in the joint interests of the two countries. Those sharp-eared and sharp-eyed amongst you will, of course, understand that that means that we could now be negotiating something that is not in New Zealand\u2019s interests as long as it was in the trans-Tasman interest. As we are the smaller partner we cannot discount the possibility that that might occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI guess I would call upon the Government speakers next up to explain to the House why as the custodians, for the next 18 months or so, of the national interest they believe it is in New Zealand\u2019s interest for us to subsume our negotiation objectives to those of the whole trans-Tasman market, rather than to act in the interests of \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D One of the things that right across this side of the House\u2014and just as a little aside, I think the public has seen in the last week, with things like the manufacturing inquiry, an uplift in cooperation between New Zealand First and Labour and the Greens, all acting in a very professional way together to deliver services to the public. They are seeing us act as a united Opposition to try to bring policies forward and ideas forward that will really help New Zealand go forward and hold the Government to account. So we are asking on this issue, as a united Opposition, why, National Government, are you subsuming the New Zealand interest to the trans-Tasman interest? And why, then, is there a risk that the New Zealand regulator might be leaned on by a Minister because they get a phone call from Canberra? I could tell a few stories about meetings in the Beehive with the representatives of major Australian corporations, but perhaps it is not the occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Commission is currently constrained from providing investigative assistance and compulsorily acquired information it holds to Australian or overseas regulators. That is an important issue. If evidence is found in, perhaps, a trans-Tasman monopoly issue that bears upon the behaviour or performance of the Australian parent company\u2014let us just say it was a bank, for a start\u2014the law currently prohibits the New Zealand Commerce Commission from sharing that information with the Australian regulator. That is not a smart thing to do. If the company is cross-owned then the sheriff needs to be able to share information with the posse. That is a reasonable and prudent thing to do in order to get good governance on both sides of the Tasman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn general Labour thinks that this legislation is worth supporting. We acknowledge that it flows from work that has come from cooperation across the House, a bipartisan approach to international trade\u2014or hitherto bipartisan\u2014where we are managing for New Zealand\u2019s national interest, where we acknowledge the importance to New Zealand of our status as a trading nation and the importance of fair international trade rules. We understand that for that to work you have got to have teeth amongst the regulatory systems on both sides of the Ditch, and that, in turn, means the ability of the regulators to exchange information and ensure compliance on both sides of the Tasman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis is a small but positive step forward. It is not the end of the road. Looking forward, to conclude my remarks on behalf of the Labour Opposition, may I remind the House of the importance of whoever for the time being is sitting on the Treasury benches, Mr Bridges, operating in New Zealand\u2019s national interests in particular, as well as those of the trans-Tasman economy as a whole. It is New Zealand mums and dads, New Zealand taxpayers, who are paying our wages and in whose interests we are working. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00226e69b2a270de4114aab0f55ab41d5ed5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e69b2a270de4114aab0f55ab41d5ed5\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, how lucky were we to have 10 minutes instead of 5 minutes from the previous speaker, the Hon David Cunliffe. I feel that all of the issues have been so well traversed that it leaves it for me simply to sum up by saying this is good legislation. It needs to be passed into law, and I support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb81c291681c4a3bbc8235fc66b15e2c\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates, Returns Filing, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002223063ed346d446b581cbfd4b1f7639d9\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000564\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 26 September.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268658bf268484255b5a386fa53869a20\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to other Acts and regulations (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0808044607948988e589376fb2d569d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0808044607948988e589376fb2d569d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in Committee for further consideration of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Returns Filing, and Remedial Matters) Bill and for consideration of the Legislation Bill, the Airports (Cost Recovery for Processing of International Travellers) Bill, and the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill. Members, we come first to the Taxation (Annual Rates, Returns Filing, and Remedial Matters) Bill. When the Committee last considered the bill we had reached Part 5, and the Hon David Cunliffe had the call. He has 3 minutes and 20 seconds remaining, if he so wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed381f92fb534c7eb510c9e903bd6886\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed381f92fb534c7eb510c9e903bd6886\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. That is incredibly generous of you to remember back that far, and I am delighted to take up the other 3 minutes and 20 seconds. I had actually temporarily forgotten that my last soliloquy was so rudely interrupted by the clock. So let us pick it up from where we left off, which, of course, is that the Taxation (Annual Rates, Returns Filing, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u2014which Labour supports, the Chairman will be pleased to know\u2014is part of a much broader plan that the Labour Opposition has for creating jobs by supporting our exporters to expand and to earn more, and to help Kiwis get the education and skills they need to seize the job opportunities of tomorrow. It sounds pretty good, does it not? But none of that is going to happen unless we have a tax system that works for our businesses and for our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is important that we grow our jobs and businesses by investing in science and innovation, so that we can own the intellectual property rights that will help us command a premium in overseas markets, and we also want to be able to help Kiwis save for a first home. This is a long-held and long-cherished part of the Kiwi dream, that you can own your own patch of dirt, but in order to achieve that we need to have a reasonable tax system that encourages homeownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo how does this bill fit in? Well, in general, the picture that New Zealanders are seeing is that under National things are slipping backwards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc397e3666e41f284fdaafc005ebbd7\u0022\u003ETodd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, such a good speech until now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022460c830824d048e295f46ba38ce2b65c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the member for Rotorua\u2014that, sadly, National does not have a plan for taking us forward, that it is increasingly out of touch with ordinary Kiwis, and that it is spending its time debating things like its defence of Dotcom actions and so forth, whereas what ordinary Kiwis are saying to us is \u201CActually, we care more about paying the bills, you know? Yes, Labour, you\u2019ve caught them out, but it is time you came back, Government, to what matters to us: paying the bills, putting the roof over our head, getting the kids through school, and making sure that the hospitals are there when they need them.\u201D, and that is what we are determined to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a very small contribution to a few good things. I am going to run through just a couple of them. It raises the employee contribution rate for KiwiSaver from 2 percent to 3 percent. The irony of that is, of course, that only 2 years ago National cut the KiwiSaver rate from 4 percent to 2 percent. But we are broad-minded. We are pleased to see that the Government has now admitted that it has got it wrong and it is doing a U-turn, which we are now pleased to support. It is a small U-turn. The Government went from 4 percent to 2 percent, and now it has gone from 2 percent to 3 percent, and for National that is a revolution. It is a very small revolution. It is a step in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that Labour\u2019s KiwiSaver plan, which was taken to the last election, would have increased the savings rate by four times over National\u2019s plan\u2014four times\u2014and that would have been of huge benefit to savers, to the banking system, and to our businesses that wanted to access investment capital. Labour\u2019s KiwiSaver Plus plan would have really guaranteed a good savings future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat the chopping and changing on KiwiSaver does, though, is it undermines New Zealanders\u2019 confidence, and it does nothing to improve our dire savings situation. So what we would recommend to the Government is that we are supporting this increase from 2 percent to 3 percent, so why do you not get with the programme and increase it to 12 percent, or 19 percent, which is what the Australians are doing through their employer contribution? That would be real change. This is just tinkering. We are supporting it just because it is going in the right direction. It is a small step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe bill also confirms that GST applies to late payments. The Minister of Revenue claims that he is merely trying to clarify the law around GST on late payments, but tax experts say that late payment fees neither were particularly good nor were they a service, and therefore they were not supported by the first-principles approach to GST. That is complicated tax language for the fact that this confusion should never have occurred in the first place. We support the tidy-up, but it really should not have been there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe National Government, of course, has bad form on GST. I am sorry to have to remind the House of this, but, of course, we all have emblazoned in our minds the indelible picture of John Key facing the camera and recalling that he would never raise GST. And then, in a sudden stroke of amnesia, he forgot and he raised it, and then said that he never promised he would not. It is extraordinary, that bloke\u2019s amnesia, is it not? You know, one minute he is running a spy agency; the next minute he cannot remember where he had lunch. It is extraordinary. One minute he is promising he will never raise GST; the next minute he is raising it and then forgetting that he had promised not to. Anyway, let us let bygones be bygones. We are bigger than that. That was last election. We are preparing for the next one. We are supporting the bill. We are supporting the tidy-ups on GST, but that brings me to the next issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMembers will recall the tax switch. That was the much-heralded idea, and one of really only two ideas that the Government has had in the economic area since coming into office, that it would swap increasing GST on everybody for cutting the top tax rate for rich people\u2014very rich people\u2014and that that would cause the economy to bloom and it would not lose money, because it would be fiscally neutral. Bad idea for everybody except the top few percent, because the economy did not grow and it was not tax-neutral. The taxpayer was out of pocket to the tune of $1.1 billion over 4 years. That was one of two bright ideas National brought to the table as a new Government. The other one was selling State-owned assets. Neither has made a blind bit of difference to an economy struggling to get out of the mire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s tax switch was, therefore, really a tax swindle. Hard-working Kiwi families ended up paying more than they needed to, and they saw little in the way of tax cuts. The current Government has got more problems, because, as we have long suggested, the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s computer system is on the brink of falling over. What that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfaa9575e91f4998b6d814cb5a37775c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Part 5\u2014I am just struggling to find the part of Part 5 that the member is referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229adf1caa9c574568990a6ab4efff68b5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It applies to KiwiSaver, and this tax system is required to implement KiwiSaver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea089b73cac94f47b4b497faeb033025\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Drawing a long bow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a27bab1441b47989ed6b4b7b7b51947\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: We specialise in long bows. I will come back to Part 5. We have been on a little, what we might call, derivative tour through macroeconomics. We went from KiwiSaver to the savings rate. We went then to the tax system and the fiscal balance, which, of course, is impacted by the savings, and so back to KiwiSaver, of course, which is referred to in Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d77584cde945dba7b2d327c17d973d\u0022\u003EMichael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: That is a long bow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e42bcad8dca49c6b69ee5037c89b2d3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a long bow but it is relevant, because what we are doing is actually cutting through the fine print to what is really important to New Zealand households, and that is being able to pay the bills, put a few cents away for the rainy day, and make sure that they have left something for their own retirement and something for their kids. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENew Zealand needs KiwiSaver and it needs it to be bigger, it needs it to be better, and it needs it to be stronger, and National\u2019s record in this regard is not flash. It cut the contribution rate from 4 percent to 2 percent. In this bill it is lifting it from 2 percent to 3 percent. We think it is a good idea. We are prepared to support the bill, but do not let anybody out there in listener land get the wrong impression that it is a full solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00226829ccf91395489695701c9a8b83e6d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226829ccf91395489695701c9a8b83e6d1\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the Taxation (Annual Rates, Returns Filing, and Remedial Matters) Bill. We are on Part 5, which deals with, among other things, changes to the KiwiSaver Act of 2006. I have to say I am surprised to be here debating a bill, a measure, put forward by the National Government to increase the KiwiSaver contributions to 3 percent. This is a special moment for me, because one of the very first speeches I gave in this House\u2014I think it might even have been before my maiden speech\u2014was opposing the newly elected National Government\u2019s decision to cut KiwiSaver contributions from 4 percent to 2 percent. I said at the time\u2014I had only just arrived here\u2014that I thought it was a very short-sighted measure and that 4 percent probably was not enough. Here we are, and I am pleased the Government is increasing the contributions to 3 percent. In fact, I think they should go back to 4 percent, and potentially go higher than that. So I am very pleased to have this opportunity to talk about this decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think that moving back to 3 percent is a very sensible move. I think it was an unwise decision to drop the contribution in the first place. I am not entirely sure what the motivation behind the National Government proposing that at the time was, given that the uptake of KiwiSaver was so high. I think KiwiSaver, when it was first created in 2006, exceeded the then Labour Government\u2019s expectations manyfold. I do not think it was possible to anticipate that so many people would sign up for KiwiSaver. It was hugely popular, and I remember watching Michael Cullen continuously ticking off milestones in the KiwiSaver scheme. I think that was really fantastic. I think it was, therefore, confusing when the incoming National Government decided to cut it in half, without any real justification for doing so, because it was clear that 4 percent did not provide a barrier to people wanting to sign up for KiwiSaver. They were already signing up for KiwiSaver in large numbers at 4 percent, and so the argument that more people would sign up for it if we dropped the contribution rate to 2 percent was in fact a little bit of a folly. So I am very pleased to see that it is going up to 3 percent now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere is another interesting aspect to this, which is that we want to encourage retirement savings generally. Dropping the KiwiSaver contribution from 4 percent to 2 percent created some inequities in the system, whereas the Government had previously provided other superannuation schemes that were more generous than 2 percent but less generous than 4 percent. For example, when I was a public sector employee, I was a member of the State Sector Retirement Savings Scheme and that has a contribution rate of 3 percent. When KiwiSaver was introduced, future public servants were prevented from signing up to be members of that scheme on the basis that everyone could sign up for KiwiSaver. It was more generous, there was a bigger contribution, and therefore they were better off doing that. When the Government cut that to 2 percent, it created some real unfairness because it meant that newer people signing up to be public servants\u2014and we want people to sign up to work in the public service and serve New Zealanders\u2014were being penalised and they were being disadvantaged, because they could no longer get the 3 percent employer contribution that they might have been able to get before KiwiSaver was introduced and before membership to the State Sector Retirement Savings Scheme was cut off. So this bill now brings KiwiSaver back up to that rate. I think that is very good, and I am sure it will be welcomed by the people who would otherwise have missed out on that extra 1 percent employer contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere is an interesting provision in new section 112B, inserted by clause 157B, about non-deduction notices. I have not had a chance to study this in great detail with reference back to the principal Act, and, of course, when you are reading an amendment bill without making reference to the principal Act, sometimes things are not always as clear as they might otherwise be. But by my reading of this matter, people can, whenever they want to, issue a non-deduction notice to their employer and stop their KiwiSaver contributions, and the employer contributions would also cease at that point. Previously, you needed the approval, I believe, of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue or his or her delegated agent in order to cease your contributions to the KiwiSaver scheme. What I am wondering is whether these non-deduction notices remove that requirement. Can anybody just opt out of KiwiSaver whenever they feel like it, or will they still need that waiver, if you like, from the Commissioner of Inland Revenue? Certainly, read on its own, that is what that section would suggest, but, as I say, I have not got the principal Act in front of me to refer back to, and it may well be that there are sections in the principal Act that I have missed that might actually cover that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are some other interesting provisions in Part 5, in particular the provision relating to unsuccessful software development in new section DB 31B, inserted by clause 163. Section DB 31B(1) states: \u201CThis section applies when a person incurs expenditure in the development of software for use in the person\u2019s business if\u2014(b) the development of the software is abandoned before the software is fit to be used in the person\u2019s business;\u201D. I think it is really important to note that Government software development does not come in under this category here, because, as we have seen in recent days and weeks, the Government is not doing particularly well when it comes to software development and how it manages information within departments. I think maybe we do need to look at how we could incentivise the Government to up its game here. Obviously, a tax deduction is a bit pointless because the money would go back to the Government in the first place, but there is merit in discussing how we could get the Government\u2019s software development and IT project development sharpened up a little bit in light of recent announcements and recent debates that have taken place in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are some other interesting provisions in this part, such as clause 166, \u201CSpreading forward of deductions for repairs to fishing boats\u201D. I have to say that is an interesting topic. I am sure the owners of the fishing boats will be very, very pleased with these amendments. So on that note, I would finally say that the Labour Party is supporting this bill because it contains many measures that we do support, and particularly I am pleased\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd1f3a3684d4b38ae05ac648006910d\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What about cabbage boats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c59b3afdc29403a918622b146b39105\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: What about cabbage boats? That is a good point actually. I have just thought of another 5 minutes! Will this amendment to the repairs of fishing boats apply to cabbage boats that Mr Banks might be wanting to come into the country on? That is a very good question. I do not know, because the definition of a fishing boat\u2014from just glancing through it\u2014is defined under the Fisheries Act 1983. I do not know what the definition of a fishing boat is. I am not sure whether John Banks\u2019 cabbage boats would necessarily come in under that, but I am sure that one of the other members of the Opposition, or the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Consumer Affairs, might be able to clear that up for us. He is nodding his head, so I am feeling very optimistic. I think he is misleading me, though, because I get the sense that he is not going to take the next call and answer all my questions. I am going to be bitterly, bitterly disappointed by that, because I think there are many issues to be cleared up, particularly this new revelation that has just arisen a few moments ago that in fact John Banks\u2019 cabbage boat could be covered by this exemption or these requirements around certain repairs to fishing boats. That is a very interesting development, and one that I think it would be interesting to hear the Minister\u2019s feedback on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI was winding up before, and David Clark kindly gave me some new material to work from, but finally I just want to summarise by saying that the Labour Party supports this bill. We are very pleased with the KiwiSaver amendments in particular. We do not think that the Government did the right thing in cutting KiwiSaver contributions from 4 percent to 2 percent, particularly at a time when the Government was saying it wanted New Zealanders to save more money, and its decisions around KiwiSaver certainly went in the opposite direction. So we are very pleased to see it going back to 3 percent, and the Labour Party will be supporting this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3d3e5a538d449c3a23f04cbd0538ed0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3d3e5a538d449c3a23f04cbd0538ed0\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u002285a731656b614e3d8128420693f5acaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285a731656b614e3d8128420693f5acaf\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am taking a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Taxation (Annual Rates, Returns Filing, and Remedial Matters) Bill. We also will be supporting this bill, and now that we are on to Part 5 of the bill we certainly also support the whole new structure in terms of the employer contributions for KiwiSaver returning to 3 percent from 2 percent, having been reduced from 4 percent a year or two ago by the National Government. It is somewhat ironic that, having halved them, the Government is now increasing them by 1 percent back up to 3 percent, and one wonders why it dabbled with the KiwiSaver scheme in the first place when it was working so well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThere is a little bit, at the moment, of a feeling of rearranging of the deckchairs on the Titanic when it comes to this Government at the present time. There seems to be an awful lot of tinkering around the edges when it comes to some of these taxation things, as we have heard earlier in the evening on other taxation matters where the Government seems to be intent on just tinkering with the trivial in taxation while leaving the big-picture stuff aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn that respect I have already spoken in the House tonight about the several billion dollars in tax deductions for the wealthy in this country that resulted in us in an earlier bill having to look at the CPI adjustments to do with the cigarette excise, and here we are looking at putting up the percentages again. Again, there is an awful lot of tinkering without solid results. In fact, here is a situation where the Government is having to basically concede that it was wrong on the KiwiSaver deductions. So, hopefully, this will help increase the savings of Kiwis, with the contributions from employers increasing to 3 percent, and it will help the ongoing savings of New Zealanders for their retirement in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut it is interesting looking at some of the other clauses in this bill. The previous Labour speaker, Chris Hipkins, also mentioned about the software deductions and that if you have failed software, then you can have the appropriate tax deductions. Presumably this will not apply to the likes of Work and Income and to other Government departments that have had some colossal software failures, obviously, in recent weeks under this Government and where there have been some huge, huge holes found in the software and in the access of our computer systems in some of the Government departments. So it is somewhat ironic that if you have failed software, you will be able to get deductions under this new taxation. Perhaps they could foresee that there were going to be some of these problems with some of these Government departments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut it is also interesting, when it comes to clause 172(1) under \u201CFees\u201D, that in terms of departmental consultation the fees are going to be increased from $50 to $150 in terms of deductions for consultants such as valuers, engineers, and architects in obtaining advice as to the estimated useful life or estimated residual value of the property to which the application relates. And is it not interesting that we have a Government that often complains about the rising cost, for instance, of charges by local government, and that local government has been exceeding its charges exorbitantly, according to some of the National Party members, and increasing the charges colossally. And here this Government is increasing the fees in relation to this regulation from $50 threefold to $150. That is a pretty jolly good increase by anyone\u2019s standard, to put forward a threefold\u2014300 percent\u2014increase in fees. So again it is a little bit like the bull in the china shop or throwing stones in glasshouses. This Government is quite happy to put up fees by three times, but then criticises other parts of local government and other parts of all sorts of things that simply are doing their job, and this Government sees no problem at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First will be supporting this bill but it is very mindful of the fact that once again a lot of this is overdue, a lot of it is tinkering, a lot of it should never have happened in the first place, in the case of the KiwiSaver changes. Basically, as I said before, the deckchairs of the Titanic continue to be rearranged. We hope that finally one day this Government will get things on an even course so we do not have to have these sorts of bills coming to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00222d001d947ff544a9b93e2c83b96b9311\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d001d947ff544a9b93e2c83b96b9311\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002202506d14287440c8a588d8fccc41553c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cc4f53e1334749a9bbeea56ffc334107\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220747eba3ba8e41d4826d407278b42269\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294c38709fc1b4fb0ba9098dc4b9d1ec1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002229a321926b8343f3b863a8a18887c79b\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000607\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in his name to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000608\u0022\u003Eto insert before the amendment to subclause (6B) the following amendment:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000609\u0022\u003ESubclause (6): replace \u201CSection 137\u201D with \u201CSection 137(1) and (2)\u201D.; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000610\u0022\u003Eto omit the amendment to subclause (10B).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dbd50ce5ad3546d482ded3c59981015a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000611\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225561a65fd6a34de7b8e0ac595882a62b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229049ef8461c147008fdf9a4b3ba6635f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000612\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ad4a9a92f8d439797e11617081a73e2\u0022\u003ELegislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cc02382f7a54fd28973f5faf022e2f0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cf5db0e45f34dadb90ab9df90a917ee\u0022\u003EPart 1  General provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e11e67beb4f34555af1a5387a74a525f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e11e67beb4f34555af1a5387a74a525f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to address the Committee stage of the Legislation Bill. As of course we are all aware, the Legislation Bill is designed to modernise and improve the law relating to the publication, availability, reprinting, revision, and official versions of legislation, bringing them together in a single piece of legislation. So that is an excellent move in respect of this particular piece of legislation, and that is something that we all support in this House\u2014in fact, we welcome it. I think that it is an important advance in the way that we are able to bring together the legislation into the one single format. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill was introduced to Parliament on 25 June 2010, and normally I would make some reflection as to the time that it has taken to return to the House in the Committee stage. I think Mr Chairman would know that normally I would be somewhat critical of such a delay, but I am not critical of the delay in this particular instance because I believe that the legislation is so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn many respects it is not the sort of legislation that, as my husband might use the phrase, smokes your tyres. He always uses that expression. Something that is particularly exciting is something that smokes your tyres. This does not normally smoke the tyres of anyone I know, but the truth is that it is really important legislation and it is worth taking the time in order to put the effort in and in order to make it really worthwhile. So a lot of people who are tuning in to their crystal sets tonight will be thinking that this is a very technical and a very dull bill, but I can assure those people who are listening tonight that this is anything but, certainly for this side of the House and for certain members on both sides of the House. For a lot of members of the House this will be a technical and dull bill, but those of us who have been here for some time will know that it is a really important part of making sure that our legislation speaks to our modern environment, rather than reflecting that which has come before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThere are elements around this particular law, though, that I do think are worth reflecting on as we deal with the Legislation Bill in the Committee stage. I really would like the Attorney-General to speak to a particular issue that I want to put on the table, and it relates to a former Leader of the House and Attorney-General, Sir Michael Cullen, who believed very strongly that the Parliamentary Counsel Office should report to the Leader of the House, as opposed to the Attorney-General. I personally think that he was on the right track with that, and I really would like the Attorney-General to respond to that because it was a comment made by a former Attorney-General. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reason I support it is that, in fact, the Leader of the House controls the agenda of the House, controls the Order Paper, and looks after the legislative programme. I remember, as a former Minister, having to negotiate quite a hard bargain from time to time to get bills that I wanted on that programme. Often the point at which it was held back was when the Parliamentary Counsel Office was not able to prioritise that work. Therefore, rather than having the Attorney-General being the Minister responsible for parliamentary counsel, it actually made good sense to have the Leader of the House with that particular role. Actually, the more that we debated this issue\u2014because we did have quite a long discussion about this when we were in Government\u2014and the more we had the discussion around the different roles that were brought to bear in this regard, there was not a vote, as it were, that sat with the role of Leader of the House, and it made good sense for the Parliamentary Counsel Office to be the basis for a vote to be allocated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI will give you an example of where that particularly worked. I want to go back perhaps more than 10 years now, back to the last time when the sale of liquor legislation was before the House with any sorts of substantive amendments. Of course, in those days all parties operated under a conscience vote. As a result of a number of different amendments that were going to be moved during the Committee stage of the sale of liquor amendment legislation that we had in front of us at that time, the Attorney-General was asked to make provision for parliamentary counsel to be available to private members\u2014to individual members\u2014to assist in the drafting of amendments. The reason that this occurred was to ensure that under a conscience vote scenario, if legislation was to be amended by way of a Supplementary Order Paper by a member, at least it would be drafted in a form that would work. Again, that really reflected back to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am trying to remember who the Minister was at the time. I know that Tony Ryall was the Minister of Justice when the legislation went through, but I cannot recall whether it was still Doug Graham in those days who was the Attorney-General. But whoever it was, they did make the Parliamentary Counsel Office available for the amendments that were going through. It did strike me at the time that it would actually go a lot better with the role of Leader of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn terms of the good order of the House around the question\u2014particularly in conscience vote areas, and I know that there are fewer of those today\u2014it did seem to me that it made a lot of sense for that to occur. So I really would appreciate the Attorney-General actually responding to that issue. I know that Sir Michael Cullen would have felt\u2014well, I think he would appreciate the fact that the House was considering this particular issue in the context of the Legislation Bill in front of us tonight. So I do ask the Attorney-General whether he would respond to that particular question. I do actually think that it has a lot of merit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to mention just one other example of when this particular issue came to light, and that was when I was part of a select committee that was looking at constitutional arrangements. Again, this dates back a number of years. I think it was just prior to 2005\u2014it might have been 2004 or 2005. I was involved in a small select committee that was established for the purpose of looking at constitutional arrangements, and I recall that Peter Dunne, I think, was the chair of that particular committee. We traversed a whole range of different issues around constitutional matters, including this whole question of whether a vote should apply to the Leader of the House, and whether there were grounds for particular support around some of the constitutional issues that would arise in terms of the House, and the roles of private members arose on that occasion as well. So even though it is not obviously a part of this bill in the sense that it was not a proposition that the Government did pick up, I would actually appreciate having the Attorney-General on record in response to that particular issue because it is an important one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe point that I really wanted to make was how important these sorts of legislative measures are. There is a lot of serious work that goes on behind the scenes to modernise the rules around legislation. I think that for legislation to be accessible and available to people generally, we do have to have a serious look at these kinds of legislative improvements from time to time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe select committee looked at the regulations disallowance changes proposed in the bill, as well\u2014the provisions in the bill that separate the publication and the disallowance of delegated legislation in the broad definition of \u201Cdisallowable instrument\u201D. That is designed to ensure that there will be parliamentary oversight of the use of delegated powers by the executive and to make it more difficult to avoid disallowance. I also agree with that. I think it is very important that we are able to hold the executive to account, which is the proper process of the Regulations Review Committee and parliamentary process in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef0537f9c37e426f9658a089e4f1f6db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef0537f9c37e426f9658a089e4f1f6db\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a couple of points about Part 1 of the Legislation Bill. The purposes of the bill are set out in clause 3. The first is that the new Act should bring together the main provisions of New Zealand legislation relating to the drafting, publication, and reprinting of legislation, and the disallowance of instruments. The other purposes include providing for electronic and printed copies of Acts and legislative instruments to be published, to provide for official versions of Acts and legislative instruments to be published in electronic form\u2014at the moment the only authoritative form is the written form\u2014and to facilitate the production of up-to-date reprints that are modernised and made consistent with current drafting practice concerning their mode of expression, style, and format. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe next purpose is a very significant one, because it relates to accessibility. This is a principle that the Regulations Review Committee has stressed the importance of a number of times. The bill expressly sets out to make New Zealand statute law more accessible, more readable, and easier to understand. It sets out to do so by means of facilitating a progressive and systematic revision of the New Zealand statute book so that statute law is rationalised and arranged more logically, inconsistencies and overlaps will be removed, obsolete and redundant provisions will be repealed, and expression, style, and format will be more modernised and made more consistent. Another important purpose of the legislation is to enable certain kinds of subordinate legislation to incorporate material by reference in reliance on the statute, subject to compliance with consultation and other requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EMembers will know that the phenomenon of the incorporation of material, by reference, into our law is an increasingly common phenomenon, particularly as we adopt international legal standards. It is not uncommon for legislation these days to refer, for example, to Treaty provisions that are extraneous to the statute itself, and which are not necessarily even scheduled to the statute as used to be the practice. There is often a reference in the schedule to where the provisions of the Treaty can be found. So it is important that we are clear about how material incorporated by reference into the laws of the land is able to be found by the reader, so that the reader may ascertain on any occasion what the law of the land is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFinally, the legislation will replace an Act of Parliament that is many, many years old\u2014the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920. It will replace it with modern legislation that continues the Parliamentary Counsel Office, but as a separate statutory office that facilitates the drafting and publishing of high-quality legislation. Those are all purposes with which the Opposition wishes to associate itself. Listeners to the debate might be wondering why this set of aims is necessary and what is wrong with the status quo. Perhaps what they might like to think about is the way in which statutes are published and accessible at the moment. When they are published, Acts of Parliament are ordered chronologically, which means that the user looking for an Act on a particular topic is likely to have trouble knowing exactly where to look for it, unless they have an index, or unless they are searching on the internet for electronic copies of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe law on any one particular topic could be scattered through an entire range of Acts. All of the content of an Act may not be indicated by its title. Provisions about certain matters can be located in all sorts of unlikely or unexpected Acts, unless the reader or the searcher has a degree of legal training and knows, because of that training, where to look. Sometimes it might be quite a surprise to find particular provisions where they are actually located. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAmending Acts sometimes contain substantive provisions that stand separately from the Act being amended, and these can be easily missed when searching for provisions on a particular subject. Obviously, some Acts are old, drafted in archaic language that is difficult to understand, or drafted in a style that because it is not compatible with contemporary usage is just not accessible to the reader today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EActs can be amended several times before they are replaced, and this can mean that there are inconsistencies in drafting style between the original and the inserted provisions in the same Act. In addition, redundant and obsolete provisions can remain in force, and although the Parliamentary Counsel Office is responsible for publishing Acts of Parliament, it does not have an express function relating to the presentation or accessibility of public Acts. When formulating policy, Government departments do not always treat accessibility of statute law as a priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESo I am hopeful, given the aims of the legislation, that those are some of the problems that we currently face in accessing our statute law that will be remedied by this bill. Certainly, that was the hope that was expressed by a number of submitters to the Regulations Review Committee, and the committee has done its best to ensure that in reporting a draft of the bill back to the House, the principles that I have listed will be preserved as we enact the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EJust a word about the background to the bill. The bill will implement the majority of the legislative recommendations made in two Law Commission reports: first, Presentation of New Zealand Statute Law, dating back to October 2008, NZLC R104, and Review of the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920, from May 2009, NZLC R107. Many of the problems that I listed earlier are identified in those reports, and the bill is an attempt to address a number of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Minister has tabled, I see, a 27-page Supplementary Order Paper, and it would be, I think, helpful to know, while we have had a chance to read Supplementary Order Paper 127, at least cursorily, whether the Supplementary Order Paper makes any substantive changes to the aims of the legislation and the purposes of the bill. Obviously it would be helpful, if that were the case, for him to address any of those changes, so that the Committee is clear as to what we are doing as far as recommendations that might differ from the reported-back version from the Regulations Review Committee are concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EPerhaps also just a word here about the legislative history. The bill was considered by the Regulations Review Committee of the previous Parliament. The deputy chair from the committee is present in the Chamber. There was, I think, at one point a proposal from the Attorney-General that this legislation should be combined with the Regulatory Standards Bill, and apparently that does explain some of the delay in bringing the legislation back to the House. I think the Attorney-General would agree that it was considered not proper to combine this legislation with the regulatory standards legislation, given that the latter bill does not have wide support across the Parliament, whereas, as my understanding is concerned, this Legislation Bill does have that support. So it has been decided to now bring this bill forward in its current form, back from the select committee, with the reasonably substantial Supplementary Order Paper that I mentioned. If my understanding is correct, if the Minister in the chair can confirm that, then certainly that is a move and an approach that the Opposition would support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis legislation is good technical remedial legislation. It would not have been appropriate to combine it with legislation that advances a particularly partisan agenda from the ACT Party, as the Regulatory Standards Bill is intended to do. With those few words of introduction on Part 1, I certainly look forward to and anticipate the rest of the debate with interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00224eee670605fe482bb81927682b5e0aaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eee670605fe482bb81927682b5e0aaf\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E This is an important piece of legislation and a very worthy piece of legislation. In equal amounts it is very technical and very dull, which probably explains why all the speakers tonight on this bill, the Legislation Bill, with my exception, will be lawyers. They thrive on this sort of thing. Labour will be supporting it. It looks like a common-sense bill and certainly not before its time when you consider that one of the pieces of legislation that the bill replaces is the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920. Well, that was 92 years ago. That was a different age, and it is really quite remarkable that a piece of legislation could have survived this length of time, albeit with amendment but in its original form. Because the legislation has been there for 92 years, I guess it is understandable that this legislation has sat around since the Regulations Review Committee heard submissions on it about 2\u00BD years ago. So it is not the sort of legislation that the Government has given any particular priority to, notwithstanding its worthy nature. In fact, I see the closing date for submissions was 23 September 2010. Almost exactly 2 years later, the Minister brings to the House an extensive Supplementary Order Paper, which runs into 23 pages. Because this bill is about drafting and printing, one wonders why the Supplementary Order Paper has come in and those technical changes were necessitated so long after the submissions were received and the select committee looked at it. Maybe the Attorney-General can give an explanation for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EEssentially, what this bill does is to modernise and improve the law relating to the publication, availability, reprinting, revision, and official versions of legislation, and it brings them together in one piece of legislation. Well, I think that is an important first point. It replaces three pieces of legislation: the 1920 Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act, which I have mentioned, and two pieces of legislation from 1989, the Acts and Regulations Publication Act and the Regulations (Disallowance) Act. So it is always good that in the myriad tomes of statutes we can try to consolidate down legislation into one piece. In fact, the first purpose of the bill under Part 1 is set out \u201Cto bring together in this Act the main provisions of New Zealand legislation that relate to the drafting, publication, and reprinting of legislation, and the disallowing of instruments:\u201D. So that is certainly something to be said in its favour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBecause it is a modernising Act, it also provides, as well as for printed copies of Acts, for there to be electronic copies. The old days when people studied for long hours over dusty books in the law library have been replaced with most people having access to legislation online, and that certainly has been an improvement as well. The bill sets out as a purpose the facilitation of the production of up-to-date reprints that are modernised and consistent with current drafting practice, particularly in terms of expression, style, and format. That is a good thing. What so much of this legislation is about is to try to make Acts of Parliament less impenetrable for the average citizen. I am going to come to the really important part of this legislation and what the Law Commission actually said about that in just one moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill also sets out as its purpose \u201Cto make New Zealand statute law more accessible, readable, and easier to understand by facilitating the progressive and systematic revision of the New Zealand statute book \u2026\u201D. What it tries to do, in that sense, is to rationalise and arrange statute law more logically, and that is praiseworthy; to remove inconsistencies and overlaps, and certainly the legislation will benefit from that; to repeal obsolete and redundant provisions, and if you can make the legislation shorter, again that makes it more comprehensible; and to modernise the expression, style, and format, and make sure it is consistent. I note what the Law Commission said, which is at the heart of this legislation, and this was in its Presentation of New Zealand Statute Law that came out way back in October 2008. I want to quote from it, because I think it is the heart and the soul of the legislation: \u201CThe state has an obligation to make law accessible to citizens. People have to obey the law; ignorance of it is no excuse. So they need to be able to find it and understand it. They will not respect the law if they cannot. Moreover, law which is not accessible is expensive in terms of both time and money.\u201D It is notable that this legislation\u2014I mean, it is very hard to find any politics in this legislation\u2014actually comes out of two reports by the Law Commission. I want to acknowledge the work of the Law Commission, because this is the sort of thing that, actually, you would be waiting forever for if it was the Ministry of Justice that was responsible for putting it together. The Law Commission put out first of all the Presentation of New Zealand Statute Law in October 2008, and then a year later the Review of the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI think it is important to go over what was wrong with the existing law, why we have this very large, new piece of legislation, and why it is necessary. There are a number of things I think we need to take into account. Acts of Parliament are ordered chronologically, which means that the user who is looking for an Act on a particular topic is likely to have trouble in knowing where to look for it. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the law on one topic can be scattered across any one of a number of different Acts. That makes it very hard for somebody who is trying to understand the law in a particular area. We need to address that. All of the content of an Act might not be indicated by its title, which again makes it more difficult for people to find. Sometimes the legal provisions about particular matters are located in very unlikely sounding Acts, and that is a frustration for people trying to follow the law, as well. Amending Acts sometimes contain substantive provisions that are actually separate from the Act that is being amended, and therefore you can miss that when you are looking for the provisions on a particular subject. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EA lot of the Acts that we are dealing with\u2014and you have only to walk out into the lobbies and pick up some copies of the statute book to see that\u2014are old, drafted in archaic language that is difficult to understand, and drafted in a style, again, that is not accessible. Acts can be amended several times before being replaced\u2014God knows how many times the Crimes Act has been amended, and it still has not been replaced. One day there will be a Government with the time, or the courage, or the stupidity to take on that particular task. But because of those amendments, it can mean that there are inconsistencies in drafting style between the original and the inserted provisions in the same Act. You are clearly looking at something that appears to be scissors and paste in how it is put together. It lacks coherence, it lacks consistency, it lacks flow, and, again, that is not desirable. Sometimes when the National Party is really desperate and it is looking for a member\u2019s bill, it repeals things that nobody has thought about, nobody cares about, and that have not been seen for many years. The truth is that you get redundant and obsolete provisions that remain in force for a very long time. That is one of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257fb9a34005496baa9e2c2c0cc4dec5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: John Banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c6322298d14edda733b9edde171bc7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes members of Parliament come into that category too, my colleague Lianne Dalziel very\u2014well, I would not say unfairly, I think it is absolutely fair\u2014unkindly suggested that John Banks might be redundant and obsolete. One wonders why he is in the House\u2014a dead man walking. The last point to come back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e5af731ead46de8c75b7dbce10c640\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: People in glass houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42222a0f82d41a7b16385a50fecbe8b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, people in glass houses. Well, tell us about it. One day, Maggie Barry, somebody will explain why somebody who lies can retain a ministerial portfolio. Can you explain that? Not you, Mr Chairman, but Maggie Barry, if she wants to worry about glass houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f24fded57fc34f37adaac791b94b4cf1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ad369f164ff4f8ba217d41ced7c68dd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I know. I will come back to the point. I have been distracted by that unfortunate intervention from that unfortunate member. So what you can see from what I have been saying right up to date\u2014trying to make this non-political, because, essentially, the bill is non-political\u2014is that there are real problems with the status quo and we need to make those changes. If we look at the summary of the provisions, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, which is the key agency here, will be required to publish legislation electronically and in printed form. It will issue official versions of legislation in both forms. This provision is a sensible one. We support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7359128122048109f7abef5288ba361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7359128122048109f7abef5288ba361\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the Legislation Bill. Many of my colleagues have already spoken at length on this bill and what it seeks to do. And they spoke very well. We heard from Lianne Dalziel, who got up and told us that although this was not a very exciting piece of legislation and was not legislation that would smoke your tyres, it was indeed very important legislation that needs good consideration by this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThen we heard Charles Chauvel, in a much more tempered way, call this bill good technical remedial legislation\u2014he did not go down the \u201Csmoke your tyres\u201D route. And then Phil Goff called it technical and dull, and said that he was going to be the only non-legal to take a call on it\u2014well, I join you in taking a call on this bill. In fact, Charles Chauvel and I decided that you got the gold star for finding politics in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn all seriousness, this is an incredibly important piece of legislation. As colleagues have set out, what it is doing is both modernising and improving the law relating to the publication, availability, reprinting, revision, and official versions of legislation. At its core what this bill is about is making the laws that we make in this House accessible to the people whom we make those laws for. I think that is an incredibly important piece of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis bill was very carefully considered at the Regulations Review Committee under the excellent chairmanship of Charles Chauvel. It is important that it had such a thorough examination at the select committee, because it deals with important constitutional matters, as previous speakers have talked about. What this bill does is provide unelected officials greater power to change the words agreed to by this Parliament in terms of the law of New Zealand. These provisions are carefully constructed to ensure that the powers are limited only to obvious errors. This should be the case; we need to make sure that we have tight controls around this when we have unelected officials making changes to what we enact in this Chamber and the laws that we make here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of clause 3, \u201CPurposes\u201D, what we see is that there is a very great purpose in this bill. The provisions giving the Parliamentary Counsel Office the power to correct errors are sensible. In fact, they not only are sensible but will also be of great assistance to this Parliament. However, any time that we propose to transfer this power, as I said, we must make sure that that transfer is wise. I think that this legislation has achieved this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes the very important practice of revision bills, which will be overseen by the Attorney-General. This will provide for the revision of the wording, the numbering, the title, etc. of Acts of Parliament. The aim of these bills will be to simplify New Zealand\u2019s legislation and make it easier to access and understand by embarking on a 3-yearly programme of systematic revision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI note that in the regulatory impact statement the Chief Parliamentary Counsel has considered the cost of what this revision will be. He says that it is not possible to quantify with any precision the cost associated with a statutory programme of revision because it will depend on the size and nature of that programme. A programme of 3 or 4 revision bills per year would approximate to around $220,000 per annum of additional cost to the Parliamentary Counsel Office, but $220,000 is a small price to pay to make the laws that we make more accessible to people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EMany members have spelt out the status quo and what is wrong with it. Acts of Parliament are ordered currently in terms of chronology. That means it is hard for ordinary members of the public who are looking for an Act on a particular topic to know where exactly to look for it, because things are scattered all over the place. We need to consolidate this and bring this together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAll the content of an Act might not be indicated by its title. There are laws and provisions contained in Acts with titles that would never lead you to suspect that that is what you are looking for. Amending Acts sometimes contain substantive provisions that stand separately from the Act being amended, and these can be missed when people search for the provisions on a particular subject. So when the Parliamentary Counsel Office publishes law, it has an express function relating to the presentation and accessibility of public Acts. When formulating policy Government departments do not always treat accessibility of statute law as a key priority. When they are putting together policy and putting together legislation, whether or not people can access it and find it easily is not their key concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EMy colleague Phil Goff talked about the Law Commission saying that it was going to save a lot in terms of time and money, making this process much simpler for it. The Law Commission has gone back to some very clear research on the values of plain drafting of legislation. Several pieces of research have found that untidiness and obscurity in statute law are likely to add to the costs of providing legal advice about rights and obligations to Government, businesses, and the public generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo what we have here in this legislation is not only an ability to make law more accessible to the public of New Zealand more generally but also an ability to make it more accessible to the Government when it goes about its business and to New Zealand businesses when they are going about their everyday work and running their businesses. Anything that seeks to modernise, bring together, and make what we do here in making laws for New Zealanders more accessible is something that we are happy to commend to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228fbf376d558747c087a64f766f59db93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fbf376d558747c087a64f766f59db93\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254edc16bd1ad4e709caacc87c61a0c7e\u0022\u003EPart 2  Law relating to publishing, reprinting, and revising legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022959a81d08585471c99a36314166357af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022959a81d08585471c99a36314166357af\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Legislation Bill is divided into three subparts\u2014a bit like Gaul. Subpart 1 deals with requirements and responsibilities for publishing legislation. The Chief Parliamentary Counsel will be required under the bill to arrange for the publication of copies of every Act enacted after the commencement of the legislation, copies of all legislative instruments\u2014which is the term that is used in the legislation broadly to describe delegated legislation\u2014any reprints of Acts and legislative instruments, any reprints of regulations made before the commencement of the section, and, finally, reprints of imperial enactments and imperial subordinate legislation that remain in force as part of the laws of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe innovation that will be required by the bill is that not only is there to be a definitive written copy of the legislation, which is to be the responsibility for publication of the Parliamentary Counsel Office, but there will be an authoritative electronic version of legislation as well. Clause 6(2) requires that every Act must be published in electronic form after enactment, and clause 6(3) requires there to be a copy of every legislative instrument in electronic form. The rest of the clause carries on the scheme that I have begun to describe. Then there are provisions around availability, sale of physical copies, and availability of electronic versions. There are also provisions around the numbering of legislative instruments and notice of making legislative instruments, all of which are sensible machinery provisions that will assist with the accessibility questions that were referred to in the debate concerning Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that the bill will enable when it is passed is a more logical way of accessing delegated legislation, and that is certainly something that I think people will welcome generally. At the moment the regulations are well accessible if they are actual regulations in the strict legal sense of the term, but there are a whole range of other types of delegated legislation that are much more difficult to access, and it is hoped, I think, that the provisions of the bill will make that sort of thing much easier to locate and read. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThere is a sensible provision around the power to revoke or otherwise declare ineffective, or no longer effective, a legislative instrument. That is a power that the Governor-General will have on advice from the Attorney-General. The re-enactment of provisions around judicial notice of Acts, regulations, and legislative instruments, and confirmation of the official status of both electronic and written versions of legislation\u2014all those are very sensible provisions, as I have said. Particularly in this age, where a whole new generation has become quite accustomed to locating, reading, and using material that is not in printed form at all any more\u2014it is all simply online\u2014this is a useful, probably overdue innovation. It is good that, a number of years after the Law Commission recommendations around these matters, we are finally moving to enact them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESubpart 2 of Part 2 deals with reprints. There are some sensible provisions around empowering the Chief Parliamentary Counsel to make changes around gender-neutral language, and changes around updating references so that references, for example, to Her Majesty the Queen can be automatically changed to references to the Sovereign, in keeping with contemporary usage, and references are able to be changed automatically around the content of legislation and schedules. As I say, they are all measures that make a lot of sense and ought to make for much more efficient updating of our body of laws. They are ones that we commend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EProbably the most interesting part of Part 2, though, is the provisions around revision bills, which are contained in Subpart 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ab7cf568ef24bcc946ef1e76eb49d95\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Fascinating!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7b7459879144a0b1998de929ea9d9d\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: I know that my New Zealand First colleague is raring to speak on this particular issue. He is greatly excited by the notion of revision bills. But, seriously, the bill will require that the Attorney-General provide each new Parliament with a draft 3-yearly revision programme. The revision programme will be presented to the House as soon as practicable after it has been approved by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EBasically, revision bills can do a number of things. They can revise the whole or part of one or more Acts and, for that purpose, combine or divide Acts or parts of Acts; they can adopt a title that is different from the title or titles of the Acts or parts of the Acts being revised; they can omit redundant and spent provisions, and renumber and arrange provisions from Acts being revised, or parts of Acts; they can make changes in language, format, and punctuation to achieve a clear, consistent, gender-neutral, and modern style of expression; they can include new or additional purpose provisions, outline or overview provisions, examples, diagrams, graphics, and flowcharts; they can include new or additional provisions alerting users of the revision to enactments that are not incorporated in the revision but are relevant to the subject matter of the revision; they can correct typographical, punctuation, and grammatical errors and other similar errors; they can make minor amendments to clarify Parliament\u2019s intent, or reconcile inconsistencies between provisions; they can update monetary amounts, other than an amount specified for the purpose of jurisdiction or an offence penalty, with regard to movements in the CPI; they can omit forms and schedules and, instead, authorise the matters in those forms and schedules to be prescribed by or under regulations; they can make consequential amendments to enactments that are not incorporated, or are incorporated only in part in the revision; and they can include any necessary repeals, savings, and transitional provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThen there are some safeguards that are built into the legislation around revision bills so that they are not able to be misused. There has to be a certification that a bill is, in fact, a revision bill. The certifiers are to be the president of the Law Commission, the Solicitor-General, a retired judge nominated by the Attorney-General, and the Chief Parliamentary Counsel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis provision relating to revision bills really is an important part of the legislation in respect of the objects that I referred to in my earlier contribution. It will allow for mechanical updating in a sensible way that is not provided for at the moment. It is really a very important piece of the bill. It is a subpart that the Regulations Review Committee considered in some detail. We did recommend some amendments, which I am pleased to see are largely being adopted. One thing that is not dealt with in the bill but was dealt with in the Law Commission report is the necessity to come up with some new Standing Orders to facilitate the changes that will be made by Subpart 3 when revision bills become a reality. I am sure that the Attorney-General has given this careful consideration and is already working with the Office of the Clerk to ensure that these new Standing Orders are recommended to the Standing Orders Committee. They will be required. There was some suggestion that we ought to deal with these machinery Standing Order - type issues in the bill itself, but we, on advice, agreed with the position that that was really a matter for the House. It was for the procedure of the House itself, and it was something the Standing Orders Committee would need to come to in due course in order to operationalise. It will be, I think, a welcome move to see those provisions, in particular, and those new Standing Orders come into force, and to see the very commendable innovations that Part 2 will enact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u002200d29b4416044ab6bbb110e6652798ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200d29b4416044ab6bbb110e6652798ce\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Legislation Bill wholeheartedly. We think it is a very good piece of legislation. Indeed, we think it is high time that this country had it. I would like to begin by acknowledging the work of the Ministers involved, of the Regulations Review Committees past and present, and also, of course, of the officials who have been involved in producing this very good piece of legislation. For me, I think the improvements it will make to public access\u2014what I call understandability, and what is called navigability in the regulatory impact statement\u2014are the most important aspects of the bill. I can tell you that when I was admitted to the Bar in 1972 things were a lot more difficult for people then when they tried to navigate their way through legislation. I remember staggering into courtrooms with arms full of statutes or regulations, in case I had to refer to some obscure part of one of them and track my way through various amendments. So Phil Goff\u2019s reference to dusty volumes was very real for me in those days. But, of course, things have much improved, and this particular bill is going to make things better still. I think accessibility and understandability, not just for judges and lawyers but particularly for the public, are what I particularly like about this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIt is very important legislation, dull though it may be to many people, because it does govern the drafting of legislation in this country. It also concerns some new definitions of roles for the Chief Parliamentary Counsel. Principally, it will be replacing the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920, which is an old and rather out-of-date piece of legislation, the Acts and Regulations Publication Act 1989, and the Regulations (Disallowance) Act 1989. More important still will be the programme for a 3-yearly review on a systematic basis of New Zealand legislation. I think that is extremely important as well. I do think also that the functions of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel in ensuring that legislation will be published in an electronic as well as a printed form are equally important, and that he will be able to issue official versions in an electronic as well as a printed form. That is also important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI do, however, particularly want to refer to something that is stated in the regulatory impact statement, when giving an example of why it is important for people to be able to navigate their way through legislation. It says: \u201CFor example, the law on one topic can be scattered, with provisions sometimes hidden in unlikely statutes; and Acts are amended many times before they are replaced. This can lead to inconsistencies, with obsolete and redundant provisions remaining in force.\u201D Those are exactly the sorts of problems that this bill addresses, and it is why New Zealand First is so happy to support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI do want to refer especially to clauses 31 and 33, because I think that these are most important parts of the bill as a whole. The most important part of all is clause 29(2), which sets out the purpose: \u201CThe purpose of revision is to re-enact, in an up-to-date and accessible form, the law previously contained in all or part of 1 or more Acts, but (except as authorised by this subpart) revision is not intended to change the effect of a law.\u201D That is the crux of the whole thing, I believe. I also note that in clause 33A(1) it says: \u201CA revision Bill, as introduced, must not contain any proposed change to the effect of the law unless the amendment is authorised by section 31.\u201D So that is repeated there again. I note with some pleasure also the requirements for certification in clause 33, which, I think, are a very valuable safeguard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EHowever, if I were to express any concerns at all\u2014and I must say that they are not great concerns\u2014I would have to refer to clause 31, which does provide the revision powers. It refers particularly to some I think important items in clause 31(2), which states that \u201CA revision Bill may\u2014(a) revise the whole or part of 1 or more Acts, and for that purpose combine or divide Acts or parts of Acts:\u201D. I do not think that is likely to cause any difficulty with regard to the requirement not to change the law. However, if you look at clause 31(2)(f) it does state that it is possible to \u201Cinclude new or additional purpose provisions, outline or overview provisions, examples, diagrams \u2026\u201D and so on. So, actually, that does make it possible for some change in the substance of the law to be introduced. However, with the certification provisions, I think the risk of that is minor. The greatest risks\u2014if there are any, of course\u2014are in clauses 31(2)(i) and (j). Clause 31(2)(i) says that it is possible to \u201Cmake minor amendments to clarify Parliament\u2019s intent\u201D. The problem is, of course, that we will never really know what the word \u201Cminor\u201D means, and \u201Cto clarify Parliament\u2019s intent\u201D can be a lot more difficult than the words as stated might on the surface mean. Clause 31(2)(j) refers to updating \u201Cany monetary amount\u201D and so on\u2014those sorts of things. So there is some scope for a change to the substance of the law to be introduced as part of a revision bill. However, I think care has been taken in the bill as a whole to make sure that that will not happen, especially the certification provisions. Indeed, clause 31(3) states quite explicitly that \u201CA revision Bill must not change the effect of the law, except as authorised by subsection (2)(i) or (j).\u201D, which are the very ones I referred to under which such a change is possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EBut I think the safeguards are quite sufficient, and New Zealand First, for that reason, is very satisfied with the bill as it stands. We believe that it will result in legislation being regularly updated, that it will be much more understandable, or navigable, as it says in the regulatory impact statement, and that certainly from the public\u2019s point of view it will be much, much more accessible. For all of those reasons, New Zealand First will be very happy to support the bill as amended at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00220d3ce530529c49b9b54e311b883cce44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d3ce530529c49b9b54e311b883cce44\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I was very keen to speak on this part of the Legislation Bill, because this is a particularly exciting part. In particular, it is actually Subpart 2, \u201CReprints\u201D\u2014not retreads, Megan Woods; it is reprints that I am talking about. The reason I am quite excited about this is the capacity for legislation to stay up to date with current drafting practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen I first arrived in Parliament a few years ago I had completed my law degree at Canterbury University. I actually enrolled for a particular component of my degree, and it was a course called Legislation. My university lecturer was one John Burrows, who went on to become, of course, an esteemed professor at our university, and then on to his most recent role at the Law Commission. Because of his influence, I believed that working in the Parliamentary Counsel Office was something that anyone with an interest in the law, a passion for the law, would be absolutely interested in and fascinated by, because he made the Parliamentary Counsel Office and the work of parliamentary counsel sound so fascinating and so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen I arrived here I did not find that colleagues were quite of the same understanding of the fascination and the passion for the work of parliamentary counsel. But having served for three terms on a range of select committees I actually did realise that parliamentary counsel were able to bring to bear a consistency in terms of the language that they used and the method for prescribing the law in a way that made sense right across a range of different laws. And they were all able to do that. We had some incredible parliamentary counsel officers, from the top down, at select committees, but right across the board there was this absolute commitment to what is now described in this legislation as current drafting practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThere would be some challenges faced when legislation came before a select committee and it did not meet that test of current drafting practice. The one I recall the most was actually a very early bill that was referred to the Justice and Law Reform Committee, as it was called in those days, and that was the Companies Bill. It was a brand new piece of legislation that had been the subject of a Law Commission report. The Law Commission had, in fact, drafted a bill, but the bill did not meet the Parliamentary Counsel Office\u2019s current drafting practice, to adopt the modern phraseology. As a result, the Ministry of Justice issued drafting instructions to the Parliamentary Counsel Office and completely redrafted the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI will never forget sitting at that select committee listening to submission after submission after submission, all of them beginning with their particular theory as to why the Law Commission draft was different from the Ministry of Justice\u2019s draft. There was theory after theory after theory as to why a particular phrase was used and why a particular clause was drafted in a particular way, and so the debate at the select committee came about as a debate around the two different drafting styles and the different approaches that they represented, rather than a discussion about what our company law ought to look like. I have to admit, and I think that colleagues on both sides of the House felt exactly the same way, how difficult this made our job as a select committee. It really led me to the very strong view back in those early days that the Law Commission should, in fact, have the advantage of a direct delegation of someone from parliamentary counsel to the Law Commission when it was drafting bills. Then we would get the current drafting practice merged into the Law Commission\u2019s work, so that when it returned a bill to the Minister, the Minister would, with confidence, be able to introduce that bill to the House. So I am very pleased to see an entire subpart of Part 2 devoted to this whole question of current drafting practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOne of the frustrations that I have experienced over the many years that I have been here is when legislation was drafted in a format that is no longer representative of current drafting practice and an amendment has to be made, and the number of times that parliamentary counsel have to go through the existing legislation in order to, essentially, upgrade it so that it is fit for purpose and to accept an amendment that Parliament is dealing with several years later. I believe that that frustration can be dealt with as a result of this subpart, which is why I am very, very pleased to see it in the form that it is in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOf course, there are simple editorial changes that can be dealt with at the time of a reprint, which actually make incredibly good sense. We can, for example, see language changed to gender-neutral language so that we can refer to \u201Che or she\u201D instead of the word \u201Che\u201D. I mean, I remember all of those laws that existed for many, many years that only ever referred to \u201Che\u201D. You know, I felt as a woman that these things never quite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022107b755002b84eeda92275812e52f7a3\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Excluded\u2014you felt excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fa1256797a447dc8e8934656abaaebf\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I felt excluded. That is exactly the word I was looking for. Thank you, Mr Little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc6a479e03441c58f5affc334c57d5b\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: They didn\u2019t apply to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222969a6f8b5604ddea4cd0d51e08e6cdb\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: But sometimes I felt that they ought to apply to me. I felt definitely excluded. But now the words \u201Che or she\u201D can simply be replaced for the word \u201Che\u201D, and that enables the law to be updated in a sensible way. The word \u201Cchairman\u201D may be changed to \u201Cchairperson\u201D. I remember\u2014this is going to show how long I have been here\u2014the Rt Hon Sir Robert Muldoon debating in the House once, and he actually got a bit upset that somebody had been referring to the Chair. He got up and gave a speech about how unfortunate it was that the previous speaker was able to address only an inanimate object that the Chairman was sitting on. He really was not quite up to date himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe words \u201CHer Majesty the Queen\u201D may be changed to \u201Cthe Sovereign\u201D. I actually think the fact that we are signalling this does suggest that, you know, we are getting ready for the inevitable there. I think the same thing happens when you refer to things like Queen\u2019s Counsel and it becomes King\u2019s Counsel over time, and vice versa. We have to make sure that our legislation is able to stay up to date in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThen there are some simple changes that just reflect some sensible changes to the way we use language. Sometimes there are simple spelling errors, errors in numbering and cross-referencing, and any other errors of a similar nature. All of these can be tidied up in a very straightforward manner, and that is something that I think makes really good sense. So I believe that this is a helpful part of this legislation\u2014this subpart, in particular, I think\u2014to embed current drafting practice, because, of course, the language always speaks to the present moment. The definition of \u201Ccurrent drafting practice\u201D in clause 23 is that it \u201Cmeans the legislative drafting practice for the time being used by the PCO\u201D. That means that whatever the drafting practice of the day is, that is the definition that will apply. That will enable our laws to remain of a particular standard. That means that when one looks at a particular piece of legislation and at another piece of legislation, the differences will not be there. They will, in fact, be drafted in the same way and will meet the same tests, and that will ensure that people have a common understanding of what they mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo, again, I think this is an excellent bill, and I am pleased to see this particular part. I know that people have sort of taken my comments as being somewhat facetious, but having had the experience of sitting on a variety of select committees and seeing the incredibly hard work that our parliamentary counsel bring to the task, I believe that these changes will assist them in the work that they do and, obviously in that regard, assist the work of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ded955e0262549c3aea116eb49e06b5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ded955e0262549c3aea116eb49e06b5d\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the Legislation Bill. Some of the comments from my colleagues and others in the Chamber earlier might have suggested that this legislation is tedious or boring, but this is actually absolutely fundamental to the operation of the House. If there is one thing that this House stands for and that it is measured by, it is the lawmaking that it does and the legislation that it produces. Therefore, to make good the record of the laws that we make and to ensure that the public and the voters\u2014the citizens who are subject to the laws that are the product of this House\u2014have access, it is vital that those laws be properly accessible and understandable. So this legislation goes some way to ensure that that happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat I wish to address my comments to is that issue of accessibility. I know, hearing some of the earlier comments from other speakers, as I say, that some people think that this is more exciting for lawyers than it is for others. I have to say that yesterday morning, like, no doubt, many others, I watched the leap\u2014the death-defying leap\u2014of Felix Baumgartner from 39,000 feet on the edge of the stratosphere, and that was exciting. But when we get to talk about our role as lawmakers, that goes beyond excitement. That is enjoyable and it is essential and it is uplifting, and it is a better thing than watching somebody jump 39,000 feet. When we talk about the accessibility of the law, clause 7 of the bill requires that the places where the printed legislation can be purchased be designated, so that there are known places where the law can be purchased. But the good thing is that the places where printed legislation can be purchased are not just confined to designated places; it can be purchased from other places as well. That is a good piece of flexibility in a good piece of law. Clause 8 requires the price of printed legislation to be reasonable, and so it should be. That is another question of accessibility, and, if I can refer to the debate in this House earlier, hopefully the CPI measures can be properly adjusted to ensure that the price of printed legislation is not artificially inflated or added to and that it remains accessible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think that what is most important in this day and age, in the 21st century and the age of the internet, is free access to legislation on the internet. We already have the legislation.govt.nz website, which is a fantastic resource wherever you are, and no doubt that will continue to be a place where the legislation is available and provided for, as the legislation says, for free. I think the question about accessibility through the internet is going to be vital, and we need to ensure that that portal, that means of access to the legislation, is as widely available to as many citizens as possible. May I suggest, without a hint of facetiousness, that maybe the IT department for Work and Income could be contracted on a special project to assist in that to ensure that the widest possible access is given to legislation available through that portal. That will satisfy the demands and the needs of clause 9 of the bill, and that will be very important in that central task of making the laws that we make accessible. It is grouped together, as we know, on the present internet site. When you enter your search, it provides all the available legislation\u2014delegated legislation as well\u2014that is relevant to the topic, and this new legislation will ensure that that is mandated by statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe provisions in this particular part go on, as my colleague Charles Chauvel talked about, to the 3-yearly review of legislation. It is now a standard procedure in any organisation, private or public, to ensure that the outputs and the services that are provided are given a regular review to ensure that they are up to date, meet the need, and are fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI do notice in clause 33 that those who are empowered to give certification to legislation that is reviewed and given revision\u2014so that there is editorial change without changing the meaning of the law\u2014are confined to the president of the Law Commission, the Solicitor-General, and a retired High Court judge appointed by the Attorney-General. That is a sensible provision, so that this House does not get bogged down in having to utilise its very expensive processes to make what are often purely administrative or editorial changes to make the law current and alive and relevant for today. Typographical errors need to be able to be dealt with without taking unnecessarily the time of this House. Making the changes that tidy up the law and modernise the language without changing the meaning is a very important task, and in terms of those who are tasked with it and those who have the job of certifying that the task is done without the changing the meaning of the law, I would note that it does require some of the best legal minds we have. Indeed, the provisions in clause 33, with the designated positions that are provided for, will, I am confident, ensure that that will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn this part of the bill, we are very keen to support it and see a 92-year-old piece of legislation transformed and modernised so that we can get on and ensure that our legislation, the work we do, continues to be made relevant and, most important, made accessible to the citizens who are touched by it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Christopher Finlayson to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 127 in his name to insert new clause 32A be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003Eto omit new clause 32A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 127 in the name of the Hon Christopher Finlayson to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Taxation (Annual Rates, Returns Filing, and Remedial Matters) Bill with amendment, progress on the Legislation Bill, no progress on the Airports (Cost Recovery for Processing of International Travellers) Bill, and no progress on the International Finance Agreements Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20121016d81de60fb50c4d8baf03405c663e4ce3000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"