"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002272cd3b6e25524aaa807d98b1f654206f\u0022\u003EThursday, 14 March 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a56d1294ec8a43d0aeac731d706642f6\u0022\u003EThursday, 14 March 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226402555481994149bd6b843c3a3ee4e7\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d33abd9b27e43f195822ce18b4b4f81\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022abe9137816e74a20afb1bef380448d54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abe9137816e74a20afb1bef380448d54\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E When the House resumes on Tuesday, 19 March the Government will look to progress the Appropriation (2011/12 Financial Review) Bill, the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, the Local Electorate Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Marine Legislation Bill. On Wednesday, 20 March, with the agreement of the Business Committee and effective on Thursday, 21 March, the House will have extended hours to progress a number of bills on the Order Paper, as notified in the determinations of the Business Committee on Tuesday, 19 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002247908be43498435ca83b81662e266c1e\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237b6e134add74d2d9276fb4686dbdacf\u0022\u003EPapal Election\u2014Pope Francis\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdb8ac425b5849838e73476daaec61a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdb8ac425b5849838e73476daaec61a2\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate concerning the election of the new pope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777f140cc75048e3b5c8660361daac97\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296e1045ebb604b64903a3a739b44f90c\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House note the election in Rome earlier today of Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina as Pope Francis I. He is the 266th Roman pontiff, the first pope from the southern hemisphere, and the first pope from the Americas. He has been for some years the Cardinal Archbishop of Buenos Aires and is well known for his humility and commitment to social action. On behalf of the House, I wish him the best for his term of office and congratulate the people of Argentina on a hugely significant day in the history of their country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002296513c366599433190fe54615bfd2efb\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e75fb876488429ba83acbaf0d2530be\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ea1d3e7d2c74b62a7b301a173dd51d8\u0022\u003ESolid Energy\u2014Financial Position\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6c958a644bd4d50b43b305b091d7120\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6c958a644bd4d50b43b305b091d7120\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that one of the three main reasons for Solid Energy\u2019s precarious financial position was that \u201Cthey added gearing to a company that historically had not had gearing\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a34d2c998e544f7fb63f8c5bd0e5e44a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a34d2c998e544f7fb63f8c5bd0e5e44a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: Yes, I do. The fundamental cause of Solid Energy\u2019s problems is that the investments that the board made did not generate the returns that the board expected, and the situation became a perfect storm when coupled with the collapse of world coal prices in 2012.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9f6632b3db4319b78426c2b5265d5a\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Finance stand by his own acknowledgment yesterday that in the case of Solid Energy it \u201Cwould have been better with no debt. In retrospect, that is easy to see; at the time it was not.\u201D; if so, can he understand why New Zealanders are so disappointed to have a Government that can be wise only with hindsight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeeecba4928c4352a459a6691f7a21cf\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and, of course, that is the benefit of hindsight. At the time that the former Minister for State Owned Enterprises wrote to that company, it was clear that, as we were expressing to all State-owned enterprises, there was a need to lift improvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022131dd86dffd940b68a647a07764d4a40\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why does his Government continue to deny responsibility for foolishly pressuring Solid Energy to hugely increase its debt and dividends at a time when coal prices were dropping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246009fa5bc0647f6b03f545d843c2dc9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government did not hugely pressure Solid Energy to increase its dividends and its borrowing. The Government is absolutely clear: it is the responsibility of boards to balance dividends, debt, and capital, and that is exactly why, in 2008, Mr Mallard wrote to the board of Solid Energy and said that a long-run ratio of dividends to net profit after tax\u201465 percent\u2014was something that Ministers were not uncomfortable with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d9430cf18d41e0961c8e618dd96665\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that Mr Palmer, at the Commerce Committee this morning, said that he had said to the Government that this call for higher gearing for a company that was exposed to a volatile price for commodities and a volatile exchange rate was wrong, and that his Government had said to do it anyway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81a27abe6384439b995f154033d9587\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: As the member heard this morning from Mr Palmer, dividend decisions are made by the board, and the board takes responsibility for those dividend decisions. If asking boards to consider debt and dividend policies is not right, why did Mr Mallard do it in 2006 and 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022944eea40af0540d78d98db64b52bf95e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Crown Company Monitoring Advisory Unit, as it was then, and the Minister of Finance\u2019s own Treasury\u2014of which the unit is a subset\u2014say in advice dated 26 May 2009 to the Minister of Finance, to Mr Joyce, and to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises that setting a blanket 40 percent debt target risked being seen as simplistic and unrealistic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b8fae4765745a799902708d99139c3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Probably they may have said exactly the same about the Labour Government\u2019s 35 percent debt target, which Mr Mallard told them about in 2008. But, look, let us be absolutely clear here. The board\u2019s responsibility is to manage debt, dividends, and investment. Clearly, wrong decisions were made in terms of some investments that have not generated the return that that company wanted. What the member fails to tell the people of New Zealand is that in the second half of 2009, coal prices strongly rebounded, reaching substantial price levels that continued right through until 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b53635e8e1c64b898499afadaf6ce9b0\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Mr Palmer that after the then Minister of Energy and Resources, Mr Brownlee, had put out his \u201CSexy Coal Brownlee\u201D video, after the Minister of Finance turned the first sod for lignite developments and the Prime Minister also expressed support, and after the Government said it wanted Solid Energy to expand solid coal production and borrow more money to do it, the Government knew it was asking Solid Energy to both increase debt and increase risk after Mr Palmer said that it was wrong to undermine its balance sheet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e6156fbb73f4196ac8b98c44650732b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That member is trying to rewrite history for his silly political purposes. The fact of the matter here is that after 2009 international coal prices rocketed. They went up significantly. In fact, under that party opposite, the value of Solid Energy went from about $500 million to $2 billion. The fact is that it is not the debt that has caused the problems at Solid Energy; it is the fact that a number of investments have been made that have not generated the return that the board expected, and, coupled with a major collapse in coal prices in 2012, we have what has been described a \u201Cperfect storm\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d2b2ca32d04a1f8a08ae0568127073\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of one of those failed investments, is he aware that Don Elder and Mr Palmer both said that the reason the biofuels investment did not make any money was that Mr Brownlee and his Government removed the biofuels sales obligation that was previously legislated? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de5000fa82c645a6b022f6f74aabdd59\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e9f97ba2a745d5a674326f1fbe5a69\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! A question has been asked. It requires and deserves an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ddd99f2a7ea44c9bdfbe4c96804b75d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The member seems to be suggesting that this would have been a profitable investment only if it was subsidised by the New Zealand taxpayers. The company must have known about that decision when it was made, and it can make investment decisions in response to Government policy change. The fact is that those investment decisions, dividend decisions, and debt decisions are the responsibility of the board, as set out in the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986\u2014passed by a Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f368b1e6e6214a178ea23cc80664912c\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Did the letter from the Minister of State Owned Enterprises on behalf of himself and the Minister of Finance as shareholding Minister in 2009 ask Solid Energy to increase its debt levels? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226adca626430f481a9990ae4c664dc1ab\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Together with every other State-owned enterprise, Ministers did write and ask the board to consider increasing the debt levels. Mr Palmer, recognising that this is the prerogative of boards, wrote back to the Minister and said that the board is best placed to understand the earnings volatility and balance sheet risks of the company, and I am sure that that is the view that the board had when Mr Mallard was writing to it about dividends and debt in 2006 and 2008. Goodness me, have they not forgotten a lot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf7c8eb8c24d4bb0869fb20cbdaf2790\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister be surprised that, given this company had one shareholder\u2014the Crown\u2014Mr Palmer found very influential the request from the Government, its only shareholder, to increase production, increase dividends, and increase debt? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a027be3096b140609279c1848119b087\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Now Mr Parker is saying that the board should not increase coal production when we had record coal prices from the end of 2009\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a8558546924ef4b7fc8ccfcfbe9fc0\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was not my question at all. My question, if I would be able to re-put it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022990d8db3b5274b10bd50fbfe95b8b6f6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think that is the quickest way forward, but it would be helpful if I could actually hear the question as well. If we could have a bit of silence from both sides of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf17b5940d44734a09dab5e4a8549df\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: If I can recall\u2014I will not be able to recall the exact wording\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a9739cda5564f86ae37259a62b92ada\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member has\u2014[Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e32edc241c8445ceb97099c4fe8297c9\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister surprised that former chair of Solid Energy Mr Palmer said that, given that the company had only one shareholder, the Crown, the request from the Crown to increase production, increase dividends, and increase debt was very persuasive? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424a10f968ca4f02b67be3cfc756e53a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is the responsibility of boards to make these decisions. If they cannot make those decisions, why bother having them? Labour passed the Act in 1986, and the fact here is that we are now hearing from Labour that when the coal prices were at astronomical levels in 2009, 2010, and 2011, the company should not have increased coal production. That is bad economics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df1c52a7d01d4d6baf455ae71f0ecac1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that forcing greater debt and extracting excessive dividends from Solid Energy was fraudulent in that there was no real revenue stream behind them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd8772809ac426ea0230225649dc93f\u0022\u003EHon Steven Joyce\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c595580c63c455d8f636f2edb78b574\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I know you are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aed2da6a862a4f16bd619d6513e0ab21\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! That is a good demonstration of what happens when there is an unhelpful interjection across the House. Would the Rt Hon Winston Peters please ask his supplementary question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c600340688f54579ba641c6396c1013e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that forcing greater debt and extracting excessive dividends from Solid Energy was fraudulent in that there was no real revenue stream behind them over those years, and that the dividends, in fact, came from increased borrowing, because otherwise would Solid Energy be bankrupt today; and why should not we believe an experienced business operator and Government appointee like Palmer, rather than a bank teller like you? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022630948a905d344c89d8132f38f52034d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: What I can tell the member is that this is a situation where the board made investment decisions that simply did not generate the rate of return that was expected of them and, coupled with a significant collapse in world coal prices, the company found itself in the position that it did. There is nothing fraudulent about the behaviour of the board, and I think the member should reflect upon that accusation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96cbd3208744ac5bc27ddff43df83b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why should we not believe Mr Palmer, who was a serious Government appointee in the past and has a serious business record, when he points to the Government using the device of forcing greater debt and extracting excessive dividends from Solid Energy as a deceptive way of massaging and flattering the Government\u2019s true fiscal position; why should we not believe Mr Palmer, and not a former bank teller like you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc5739346c9d4438b684a4c187426bfd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the Minister answer just the first part of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be95195207a1405698169904d3af06c1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, who I think was actually a Treasury official and did not work at the bank, I am sure that Mr Palmer did not say some of the things that Mr Peters has alleged that he said. But I agree with Mr Palmer when he told the committee this morning that dividend decisions are made by the board and he takes responsibility, as I am sure Mr Palmer said that the board takes responsibility for its investment decisions. Coupled with the significant collapse in world coal prices, that is why the company finds itself in the position that it is in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b1a395e3c204c4aa018986ebcbd0ad9\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Monetary Policy Statement, March 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u0022a37ca326f8cb444e9c48edd06c468966\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a37ca326f8cb444e9c48edd06c468966\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on the outlook for the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed68d6555eeb4c7b9e2a5dd5db8a16d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed68d6555eeb4c7b9e2a5dd5db8a16d0\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: The Reserve Bank today issued its latest Monetary Policy Statement for March. It kept the official cash rate unchanged at 2.5 percent. The Reserve Bank also slightly revised up its outlook for the economy from its projections in the December Monetary Policy Statement. However, it did note that the recovery remained somewhat uneven, with demand and output expanding and consumer confidence increasing. On the other hand, it noted that a continued drought would have a negative impact on economic output. Overall, the central bank now expects annual average real GDP growth to rise from just over 2 percent in the year to March this year to around 3 percent in 2014 and 2015 before easing back a little in 2016.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a10949124b79475baaad16d001210cb5\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the factors driving the Reserve Bank\u2019s forecasts for growth over the next few years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc213535cc3646f6b93d708b9084195e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank notes that reconstruction in Canterbury is picking up and will be a key driver of economic activity over the forecast period. Residential investment in other parts of New Zealand is also expected to increase as a result of mortgage interest rates remaining low. The Reserve Bank also expects export growth to be slightly stronger in the latter part of the 4-year forecast period than it projected in December. It notes that the outlook for growth among our trading partners has improved since that December statement. The bank\u2019s projection for private consumption is broadly in line with its December Monetary Policy Statement forecast. It expects household savings to pick up to 1.2 percent of total disposable income by 2016, from a negative 0.1 percent in 2012.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abc3111456594cee8bf0de8fa947bf0a\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What are the Reserve Bank\u2019s latest forecasts for the cost of living over the next few years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287f9561364634cda85a1e6204db0a32d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank expects consumer and price inflation to remain subdued through the rest of 2013 before gradually rising to the mid-point of its 1 to 3 percent target band. Headline annual inflation is projected to be 0.9 percent, 1.4 percent, and 1.8 percent in the March years to 2013, 2014, and 2015 respectively. These forecasts of low inflation are good for New Zealand households, particularly those on lower or fixed incomes. In addition, average floating home mortgage interest rates are now around half what they were 5 years ago in 2008. For a family with a $200,000 mortgage, that is saving them around $200 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203cc5dd48dc84dedae7abbe89cebd700\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What alternative economic and monetary policy approaches would put at risk the low inflation and low interest rates currently enjoyed by New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdb3aee162e402581c38f178c66ab2c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are a number of alternative policies that would put the substantial benefits of current low inflation and low interest rates at risk, and that would, of course, cost New Zealand households dearly\u2014for example, trying to artificially and substantially devalue the exchange rate or going soft on inflation, or, for example, opposing the Government\u2019s share offer programme and instead borrowing billions of dollars more to pay for priority assets like schools and hospitals, or, for example, just pulling out the photocopier and printing more money. All of those things would send interest rates and inflation through the roof, directly affecting New Zealand households and families. They are, of course, the cornerstones of the Labour-Green opposition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296feeebc83f34287a1ae400fdfd819c4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7f63f750b748ca89255e4f9a06c88f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister of Finance claim to be a responsible manager of the economy when, as shareholding Minister of Solid Energy, he so clearly mismanaged that at the cost of many, many jobs and many tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars just a year after he had the debacle of the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars extra through the mismanagement of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, where they did not even look as to whether there was interest and increased loans on the back of taxpayers following the grant of the guarantee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db850414364c47f09a244f267e776f59\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The member has an interesting take on history, given that it was the former Labour Government in 2008 that set up the deposit guarantee scheme, with the support of the Opposition at the time because of the difficulties of it. Of course, that deposit guarantee scheme has come at some cost to the country, as the member points out, but has actually helped underpin the New Zealand financial markets, which is one of the key reasons why we have come through the global financial crisis alongside Australia in better shape than just about every other OECD country. Once again, we learn that the member has very little understanding of finance whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a127e1a5bc14a47ba3cb966f9e4e92e\u0022\u003ESolid Energy\u2014Financial Position\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5ba042d4e4f473babe4dc42c7f99cc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E3.\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5ba042d4e4f473babe4dc42c7f99cc1\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Why did the Government approve increased debt for Solid Energy on 28 May 2009 despite the latest company report at the time stating that coal prices were falling and \u201Cwe expect this downward trend to continue through 2009 and into 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223d560a3f2a09484090143144166007d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d560a3f2a09484090143144166007d2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister for State Owned Enterprises) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Finance: The Government did not approve the debt at Solid Energy. It is the responsibility of the board to make investment decisions on the structure of the balance sheet. I would say to the member that, in fact, coal prices bounced back significantly in the second half of 2009 and peaked in 2011, which I think demonstrates the level of volatility in this area. As Mr Palmer said, the board is in the best place to understand the earnings volatility and balance sheet risks of the company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227831f49cfd634a7f80ba796061457591\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does he dispute, then, the testimony of John Palmer this afternoon, and why did the Government ignore the clear opposition by the Solid Energy board to increasing the debt loading that has seen its debt just balloon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0ea7b77231848388e2e84180cebc703\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot comment on the first part of the member\u2019s question but I can say quite clearly that it is the responsibility of the board to manage the balance between debt, dividends, and capital investment. The problem here with Solid Energy is that a number of investments were made that have not delivered the returns that might have been expected of those. Coupled with the significant collapse in world coal prices, that is why the company finds itself in this position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f4a762d52e5428fa3f0550220751cc7\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Is John Palmer then correct in saying that the National Government encouraged Solid Energy to take on debt to adopt an expansionary strategy, and if so, was it smart to take $164 million in dividends out of the State-owned enterprise in the same period when debt ballooned from $13 million to $313 million over the same period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ca9ca62932d45b79db122c8f2ed3031\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The level of dividends that were paid by Solid Energy is extremely moderate in comparison with the cash flows that that company was generating during a period of huge international coal prices. Everybody in this House knew about what was happening in Australia\u2014the huge boom in coal prices, profits, and investment happening over there. The Government did ask for increased dividends, but the dividends that it received would not be at all unusual compared with the 65 percent of net profit for dividends that Mr Mallard indicated in 2008 was appropriate for a company like Solid Energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270bc6af7ebaa4e1c9599936bb2bf2dbd\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister subsequently instructed or requested Solid Energy to see a reduction in debt or a reduction in debt expansion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1fc099df87f4883bcbac54ab404ae47\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is working very closely with the banks and the board of Solid Energy in respect of the future of the company. The company has been severely impacted by the significant collapse in coal prices\u201440 percent during 2012. Its export volumes fell 27 percent in one quarter alone. This is the reason why Dr Elder, I think it was, described the company as facing a \u201Cperfect storm\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8ae68079fa5477283604eaae89b0f7c\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was not about Solid Energy or the banks. The question was what the Minister is doing about debt\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e9aca6d6e34de8b5c56755f170eb00\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! And I have listened very carefully to the question and I am quite happy that the question was adequately addressed with that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25f3a33050146efa072fff31c19f4fa\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Was he ever advised that the high New Zealand dollar was, to quote John Palmer this afternoon, \u201CA major factor in Solid Energy\u2019s demise.\u201D, and is this yet another victim of this Government\u2019s monetary policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ade74fd7fb44ebc9e2cb32bee331b2d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The world coal prices and the returns to Solid Energy are impacted by a whole lot of things, but the most significant driver was the collapse in world coal prices. There was, actually, a 27 percent drop in exports in one quarter alone. That is the reason why this Government is now working closely with the banks in respect of how it gets this company moving into the future. I would say that that member opposite has opposed everything that Solid Energy has done to try to get its books back in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df0b5534292b453eb3f0f3c9e35b238a\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think the Minister addressed the question at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a41b79f2de443f69faef89cd25a1436\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did. If you listened to the answer, he clearly did address it. He said it was one of the factors, and then went on to elaborate with others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb12355ad571487a8bf2e8f44e810ea6\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister continue to blame biofuels for Solid Energy\u2019s demise when it was his Government that removed the biofuels obligation, it was his Government that reduced the financial support, and it was his Government that has seen the carbon price drop from around $20 a tonne to about $1 a tonne?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7783e071554b45bb653a65deea01f0\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I simply do not believe that a Government commitment to remove the biodiesels obligation is responsible for the collapse of Solid Energy. I would ask the member to look at what is happening in Australia, where, I think, Mr Tinkler is on the verge of being arrested because he will not front up to the collapse of his coal company. A number of American companies\u2019 values have collapsed by almost 70 percent. This is an international phenomenon that has affected coal companies throughout the world. That is the reason why Dr Elder today described the matching of the collapsing coal prices with the investment decisions that had been made as a \u201Cperfect storm\u201D. This Government is responding to that by working closely with the banks and the board of Solid Energy to see what we can do, because we have got so many people who rely on this company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206a243bc3e884a5b827a5657eac73841\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that the perfect storm he is referring to is, in fact, National Party policy and National Party decisions, and that that is the reason we are seeing Solid Energy in such strife?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253e3703e10d4c93b492dd0b6a0edebb\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the Minister of Finance is very impressed to know that his policies have an impact on the coal companies in the United States, coal companies in Canada, coal companies in China, and coal companies in Australia that have all been dramatically affected by the collapse in world coal prices. The problems with Solid Energy come from the investment decisions not generating the returns that were expected, together with the collapse of world coal prices during 2012. This Government is responding to that by working with the banks and the board to do what we can to salvage as much of this company as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002275ea1d1ac18d4c919e7517f1f78a72e9\u0022\u003EMethanol Production\u2014Methanex Expansion\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7fc54cea38d4e268ff129261dc979a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7fc54cea38d4e268ff129261dc979a1\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What recent reports has he received regarding increased production of methanol from New Zealand gas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e485cb559cb94f8b9cea96f4cd872840\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking of gas!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022787aef21b901472c90d9e86c47aff9ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787aef21b901472c90d9e86c47aff9ac\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E There is a lot of natural gas over there. I have seen reports that Methanex plans to invest almost $80 million to increase its New Zealand production of methanol. This reflects the improving and secure natural gas supply in this country. This will involve adding capacity at its current Motunui site as well as restarting the Waitara Valley site later this year. By the end of this year its operating capacity is expected to increase from 700,000 tonnes to 2.2 million tonnes. I am encouraged that businesses such as Methanex are confidently expanding their operations in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275bc9c6ef24243829f47c0070af9a4d4\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: How will Methanex\u2019s expanded operations in New Zealand benefit both the local and the national economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a3ca9b8484042b3a58ca52ede48756a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: There will be many benefits to the member\u2019s region as well as to New Zealand. There will be more jobs\u2014some 500 more, a mixture of contractors and full-time workers\u2014there will be more equipment and materials bought mainly from within this country, and, of course, there will be wider benefits to the economy. The increased scale of Methanex\u2019s business will also generate more taxes over the long term and, through increased export revenue, assist with the country\u2019s balance of payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d19a382b1687454b83be63653e58efc4\u0022\u003ESolid Energy\u2014Financial Position\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002294ad47b7606b4cf081a75cabf55e4b9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294ad47b7606b4cf081a75cabf55e4b9a\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises: Does he stand by all the statements he, his predecessor and other Ministerial colleagues have made regarding the State-owned Enterprises portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221d2c587346614e47a51e7aa7bfa40690\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d2c587346614e47a51e7aa7bfa40690\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, within the context they were made, though. I suspect in the next 30 seconds I may want to change my mind. I can vouch for most of my predecessors, though I probably could not vouch for Mr Mallard when he said: \u201CIt will be up to SOEs to come up with robust business plans that can preferably be funded off their own balance sheet \u2026\u201D . \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fc3c57dbc0a41189e3637d4a5cfc851\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: If the intent of the 2009 letter to Solid Energy penned by his predecessor in respect of increasing gearing and dividends was not to encourage borrowing by Solid Energy at increased levels or a demand for increased dividends, why was it sent? What was its purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b2da5839cd41cc9353b2b51d353a52\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Letters were sent to all State-owned enterprises in 2009\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d88c0cdd64a04eae84ce192a3a5533fa\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Solid Energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568133fe272843aeb78d2780f8951e4b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014including Solid Energy. They are\u2014[Interruption] To make it clear that the Government did expect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b93f5146f0d48bea1153ad73a051bdf\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was about the letter sent directly to Solid Energy\u2014not letters sent to a variety of State-owned enterprises but the letter that was sent, which the Minister has, to Solid Energy directly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a08cf25eae344fbb2fe75e71425f132\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that, and the Minister was answering the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a112d69cde348a3bb5cebbbca79874e\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: No, he wasn\u2019t. He was talking about the other letters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e3716893d324d03ae3a566e3c4e3c9a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223afa0328c4c641bc919e02a6c229ab16\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government wrote to Solid Energy, as it did to every other State-owned enterprise, seeking to have improved levels of performance and contribution to the economy. It is up to the boards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2840cf87bd4a5382a32854e305f686\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: More debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb851ca133f4602a0ab940f8ba5720b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Members opposite seem to think that the debt is the problem for Solid Energy. I have said so many times today that it is not the cause of Solid Energy\u2019s problem. It is the board\u2019s responsibility to manage the structure of the balance sheet. The purpose of the Minister\u2019s letter was to say, just as Mr Mallard wrote to them a year earlier, that we expect better performance in dividends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022525d212895dd47f98bccc9489bd18eb3\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware of the Treasury proposal document of 2009, the recommendations of which his Government signed off, whose purpose was to increase the gearing of Solid Energy and, to quote the document, was designed to \u201Cstretch\u201D the State-owned enterprise; if so, has that stretch been successful, or has in reality that stretch perpetrated the almost total breakdown of that company at his Government\u2019s hands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9b87f70441643d5974cbd5513262e71\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: No. As I have said earlier on, it is not the debt that is the cause of Solid Energy\u2019s problems; it is the fact that a number of investments were made that have not generated the level of return to sustain those investments or their continuing, coupled with the collapse in world coal prices. In respect of the Treasury advice, it would not surprise me, because Mr Mallard in 2008 told the company\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c1d266e9a14579b991dd6e4ecb1736\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The document and advice that I referred to was not from one Trevor Mallard. It was the 2009 advice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b614a7a525c4b68b0a76cce0c3b0a94\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204cb0f61b18f4f8699c517cea6aa75e9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that talks about stretching\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cb9d726d8d24a8da30223b3481e8fb9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! But if you think about the member\u2019s question, it started with whether he was aware of the Treasury document. The Minister was just going on to talk about what was in that Treasury document. If the member is satisfied with the answer, we will move to the next supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f4e485ba1d94c9d926bb553ab5e01c4\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Is former Chairman of Solid Energy John Palmer correct when he told the select committee clearly today that contrary to the Prime Minister\u2019s claim that Solid Energy had asked for a billion-dollar capital injection and that the Prime Minister had refused that billion-dollar capital injection, no billion-dollar capital injection request was ever made\u2014no figures were mentioned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ab103aa21645318502d5705003a1df\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I would have to accept what the Prime Minister and Mr Palmer said, because I do not think they are necessarily divergent. What I can tell you is I do know that the Prime Minister received advice on the financial implications of what was being discussed with Solid Energy. I have got to remind the member again that the company\u2019s problems come from the investments that were made and the lack of return, and the collapse of coal prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226044e56330e341bdb6bffc1a40386d55\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that former Chairman of Solid Energy John Palmer confirmed to the select committee today that no action, none, was taken by any Minister in this Government since 2009 to require a change in direction\u2014in business direction\u2014no request was made to change business direction or to reduce expansion, and the only action that one can find on the record was 18 months of discussions with the company, which generated in zero action by this Government as it was asleep at the wheel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420a7df9f5404b9f98bcc87e628a12d0\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised by comments made by colleagues on this side of the House that that is not a fair representation of what Mr Palmer said, and therefore\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e18406e177d542eca5c5e9126437c185\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Nick Smith was not on the select committee, other Ministers were not at the select committee, and yet again this Minister makes it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95afa1a5ad545ce9e44e338c867b9e5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! But that is very much now debatable. I was not at the select committee\u2014[Interruption] Order! The Minister is attempting to answer the question, and I would like to hear the answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022359449f7bca540aeb12cb8699dab966a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has questioned my word. First, that is out of order. Secondly, he has said that from comments around him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225819f81ccf3a4488a13ec54b4aa9655f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Frequently Ministers disagree with words that are quoted by an Opposition member. That happens quite frequently in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeca517189c74a738f1f0c21bfe203f1\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234265aaf8a8f44328756931ef785f6e4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a fresh point of order? I will take a fresh point of order. If the member is intending to continue a repeat of the same point of order, then no, I have ruled that the question was being answered. I will give the Minister the opportunity to further answer the question, if the member so wants. But if he does not want a further answer, he does not have to have one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a859bfdf9a244b9db4361135804f181d\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc148eb32017488d99d03408db1dcb0e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b8f7ead2fc48cdbde8ef8526023ef8\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. With respect, I am not challenging your ruling at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c97ed82d497044c4b076c4d738fdb06a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member just come to the fresh point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed523cfc06be4054896b77eaf80a582a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. You stated that it is a precedent in this House that members say the member is incorrect, and you are absolutely right. That Minister did not say that. He challenged my word\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022380d674321e142018bc96cf3a0d340c6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think we are now relitigating what I have already ruled on. I am giving the Minister the opportunity to complete the answer that was interrupted, if the member so wants. If the member does not, then we will move to further supplementary questions or to the next question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b53d3c497a93454ab239ff352a7d3da5\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. Get him to answer. Yes, I do. I have accepted your invitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227310b42777a64169bff8f060a55a9b6f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister want to further elaborate on the answer that the Minister had given?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8eb1a50e4404901ab34a0a9588976aa\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has made it very clear, and this is certainly my view, that, following the scoping study in 2011, this Government took action to deal with the issues that were raised in Solid Energy\u2019s scoping study. That scoping study identified a number of issues that made that company vulnerable, including investments in a number of areas that were not generating\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbfaf62f2551496783dfd2e603d36722\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e036dddf43a04eaa847a24b2e35e6c5a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It also identified very high head office costs\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e3052e426a844ceb68ad28ab662017c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do not continue to ask me what I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ff34b402bcd4ce6a0c20d88fe329073\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and vulnerability around the projections for coal prices. And, together with the collapse in coal prices during 2012, the company finds itself in this difficult position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0ccd87c5eed463281819d4e4b5fae63\u0022\u003ENeonatal Services\u2014Intensive Care Units\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00226aa80663091b4c20a488c6f9520cdc09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aa80663091b4c20a488c6f9520cdc09\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he satisfied that the current number of beds and staff in neonatal intensive care units throughout New Zealand is enough to service our growing population?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002261c9598530b449f2a21a562154e7afaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c9598530b449f2a21a562154e7afaf\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. There are six neonatal intensive care units, which provide specialised intensive care services for very unwell or premature babies, for the whole of New Zealand. From time to time mothers and babies are transferred between the units. This can be a very difficult time for families. The most important consideration is the safety of the baby. A new $7.3 million unit is currently being built at Dunedin Hospital and is expected to be open by the end of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034efe99d7dc4e36b93beef91a013b24\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: How can he be satisfied when 33 expectant mothers in 2012 were transferred out of the Waikato to a location away from their families; and can he assure the public that the safety of these women and unborn children will not be impaired?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205942d8ebe58482d98ddaa7f129ba42a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The number of these neonatal intensive care unit beds has increased by about 10 percent since 2008; the birth rate has dropped and slowed in those last few years. It has always been the case that babies are moved between these units. I know it is incredibly disruptive. That is why we are investing to improve the one in Dunedin, because it was substandard and not up to what you would expect. I am confident that the safety of mothers and their babies is the priority for all of this being dealt with by the national clinical neonatal network.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc2f3e864f944d8eb856a4bcf323d3eb\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that transferring expectant Waikato mothers to cities as far away as Invercargill, at a cost of $8,000 to $11,000 on air transfer alone, is a good use of Government funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e668e6fa044bd091f56819a75f44c9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, because it is about protecting the mother and the baby, and that is why they go to a neonatal intensive care unit. I know it is incredibly disruptive for these parents, but we have a level across the whole country. It is a network. Mothers and babies at times do need to move around those units and that is why we provide support around that. But the priority has to be the baby and the mother. That is the commitment of this Government, and that is why we are moving to improve neonatal facilities, particularly in Dunedin, that have needed upgrading and improvement for many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac3785b56ff44597ad44987232212564\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have any plans to increase the number of beds and staff in other neonatal intensive care units throughout New Zealand to ensure that expectant mothers will not have to undergo lengthy, costly, and potentially unsafe hospital transfers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc668521ce684e5ab18309e5429286d4\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I can tell the member that the Government is investing $7.3 million in the new neonatal intensive care unit in Dunedin, which is expected to be open by the end of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022656f97f524374fb58e534f1c5ccdb525\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Corporation\u2014Injury Prevention Programmes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002207d2df970c344a3da9e0d234ac93f921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207d2df970c344a3da9e0d234ac93f921\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for ACC: What is ACC doing to encourage safe sporting and fitness practices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00228e1ea056e6f54878b74fdb7c4a96d509\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e1ea056e6f54878b74fdb7c4a96d509\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E ACC is working with industry leaders and other partnering organisations to reduce injuries suffered in sporting and fitness activities. Two examples of this are RugbySmart and ActiveSmart. For example, since the inception of RugbySmart, serious rugby neck and spinal injuries have gone down, from double digits annually to three or fewer per year. The British Journal of Sports Medicine regards this as the world\u2019s best community injury prevention programme. In 2013 RugbySmart has the potential to reach 12,000 coaches, 2,000 referees, and 150,000 players.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b302ef1241984aa4a10069ddbbfc8e43\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Is there an initiative that is more widely focused on general fitness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4245da88724c0ea2b18e8cc09a2e5f\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. ACC has also launched ActiveSmart, which is a programme for walking, running, cycling, and multisport\u2014although, obviously, not boxing. ActiveSmart has a free website and smartphone app that give easy access to tailored training plans and tips. The New Zealand Rugby Union has endorsed ActiveSmart\u2014and I understand, from the interest shown by members on the opposite side, I could arrange a briefing for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb6083af3311447caf0c093806b08399\u0022\u003EFamily Court Reforms\u2014Legal Representation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022afedd7492b634714a2f12094c7dbac9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afedd7492b634714a2f12094c7dbac9a\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Why is she proposing changes that may deny people legal representation in the Family Court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aec8c8d808634fb88dd4084e44868eb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aec8c8d808634fb88dd4084e44868eb0\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The member\u2019s question is, unfortunately, misconceived. Where people need legal representation in the Family Court they will get it. This is not changing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66fa82326ac4d03a4f32dc5e0dcb9fd\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: Given research shows 88 percent of New Zealanders in the Family Court\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223970dcd6702443e0b3f539cc8b0e22aa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am sorry to interrupt. I cannot hear the supplementary question. Could we have a bit of decorum, particularly on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef1ceb10a67949c6835fc6dd991c8e62\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: Given research showing that 88 percent of New Zealanders in the Family Court elected to be represented by a lawyer, why is she denying them that chance when the Family Court\u2019s own website says self-litigation in the court \u201Crequires a substantial understanding of the legal process.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8756d481fa8466e9ec244ed3f78e367\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, unfortunately, the member\u2019s question is misconceived. Most of the cases that will come into the Family Court relating to care of children matters will be able to move through to mediation in the family dispute resolution process, which was, in fact, suggested by the expert reference group set up to look at the Family Court system. In fact, what we are looking at is up to six different sessions of mediation to help people resolve their issues. Unfortunately, that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243740fad1689477182fce6e61e15c474\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s misleading the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a81e50d2a60049559fa22ba4f8a791f8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would ask that the member be asked to withdraw and apologise for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b928945688443c6bca969e75eb60572\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister has taken offence, then the member who made the comment should stand and withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d06d31d89bd413db796adea32695afc\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to know what the comment is that the Minister has taken offence at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022290c0ad0a78148af90719e7c12fb3fbe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need to repeat the comment, but I heard it. The Minister has taken offence. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227057034b1aba4be691c1eabdbd5bee86\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226289f1f77fef45a3ab6c555fcf8f14c8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: After six sessions of mediation a judge will then be able to actually triage the matter. So if it were a simple matter about where, for instance, Johnny is going to spend this weekend\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7854b4e07a1476597dd4e4b226efffb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister began by saying, for a second time, that the question was misconceived. The question regards the issue of legal representation at the Family Court. At no point\u2014even now, after that long answer\u2014has she got anywhere near traversing the issue of the absence of legal representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6aad4ee3fdc4d56a4529a6f0b8b4374\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think the Minister is certainly attempting to address the question. It is difficult because of the interjections, but it certainly is absolutely appropriate for the Minister to stand and start her answer by saying that she does not accept the arguments that have been put forward. I call the Hon Judith Collins, if she wishes to finish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cfb40fa04a5466db012268df7ab6de5\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I would like to say to the member that if he would like to have a full briefing\u2014and I understand that he is on the select committee and he is working really hard on it\u2014I can provide that to him, with more detail that he might not already have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b39bd97de64a439f726412860cec40\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: Although I am sure that the Justice and Electoral Committee and others would appreciate information that is clearly not in the Family Court Proceedings Reform Bill, what is her response to the six Christchurch Family Court judges who warn that explosive violent incidents will be more likely to occur, leading to an increase in domestic violence and an increasing risk to the safety of court staff and judges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246284a8cd673426fb148444ec87e14f6\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: That was an opinion expressed by a judge, but there was no evidence to support it, and it seemed to be that he was speaking about lawyers apparently stopping their clients from becoming violent in court. Well, I have never seen that happen yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220abdcb6e76674996b45da938561ab926\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister dismiss the concerns of Whangarei lawyer Dr Christopher Perry and the 4,740 other concerned New Zealanders who signed a petition asking for her reforms to be scrapped?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a30d4007ac4da181e789e7e7033219\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Because the petition included completely incorrect statements, and, actually, I thought that the comments by that particular person were, in fact, not only misconceived but actually all about self-interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63a269eaee944509f64a05298a2e197\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222680e99bd58f4922af06a90926995564\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am dealing with a point of order from David Clendon. Does the member want to table some documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202298315194345af95aa509a4ba76cd8\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document. The document is titled \u201C2013 Family Court Reform: The impact on NZ families\u2019 access to justice in an age of austerity-driven reform\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf6f3d6fab0d4ce590a14cdfc2ff9413\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The source of the document, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e7f7ca77d1c453e9f1ee4515b58b797\u0022\u003EDavid Clendon\u003C/span\u003E: The author is Maria Kazmierow, a family law barrister and mediator, and the document is dated 11 March of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd39d149b8a14eb7b5f44a605e9c3ce8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b6fe06f9f8e420495c476dd5b571f13\u0022\u003ETax System\u2014Proposed Changes to Fringe Benefit Tax\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2ff9efd65024001a2f038a809396d33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2ff9efd65024001a2f038a809396d33\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: What reports has he seen regarding his proposal to apply fringe benefit tax to employee car parks in the Auckland and Wellington central business districts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00223e06be6bf55f4e72bb27853519df7b1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e06be6bf55f4e72bb27853519df7b1d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption] If I could just address the member, I have received a number of reports\u2014[Interruption] Oh, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9e9778c2da744c4acc47e24264080e9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If the Minister would proceed with the answer, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4024a6f996e499ea53e18896e2b2ae7\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a number of reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a909dc0d72843d1bf05bccd124e9633\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not offended by the Minister having trouble seeing the questioner, but he would not look at the Minister sitting next to him during\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022351870b0ee764c02ae840579df2f3c7c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order, but it is a good example of how points of order can come if the Minister does not get on with the job of answering the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221f5b6163daf48029840d712335a8b13\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a number of reports from Inland Revenue Department and Treasury tax officials on proposals leading up to and following the consultation paper for recognising salary trade-offs as income, which, I note for the benefit of the member in the House, was released back in April 2012. Policy consideration of this issue began, in fact, in 2010. The review was part of a package of base broadening and integrity measures, which included other matters such as the treatment of mixed-use assets and widening the income definition for social assistance purposes. As the member will be aware, the bill is currently before a select committee and the Government will carefully consider the select committee\u2019s report to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d296582e355d4e0ca58f8325e9274240\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with analysis by independent accounting firm Lock and Partners that shows that the compliance cost of collecting his car-park tax is over $30 million per annum, about double the revenue that the Inland Revenue Department suggests it would collect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228408a4670377459fa6fff08e28110298\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, it is fair to say, I think, that the report is perhaps a bit of a stretch in its estimate of compliance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200504e0c25384a93a1402b7338bb32a3\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. To assist the Minister, he was asked as the Minister of Revenue but he is replying on behalf of a different Minister. Perhaps he is confused or would like to start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b401a7e063524525b85a35d03ad712f6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He is to answer the question on behalf of the Minister of Revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca811ed6968a49ec8aa3603f417836ab\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Can I thank that member for his assistance, and say that my view is that the numbers on the report that the member raises are perhaps a bit of a stretch, indicating, as it does, a cost of $5,000 per annum for medium businesses and $8,000 in compliance costs per annum for large businesses. But, nevertheless, officials have been asked by the Finance and Expenditure Committee to look at compliance cost issues and it certainly would be unreasonable to have a tax if the compliance costs are very high. So, once again, we look forward to the response from the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd345cc762ce40f2bc586cf15e794c33\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given these compliance burdens, why did he break John Key\u2019s pledge to \u201Cnot entertain suggestions of applying FBT to on-premises carparks\u201D and to \u201Cremove a substantial amount of the paperwork\u201D from the fringe benefit tax system, or does he agree with the finance Minister, Bill English, that Mr Key\u2019s promise is now worthless because \u201Cthe tax environment has changed\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951e2bb119d545908822c6c058e69a04\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I would say that I think a fair amount has changed since that statement was made back in April 2005, which was when Don Brash was leader of the National Party. Since that time we have had three leaders of the Labour Party, and maybe a fourth leader of the Labour Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205af8d73446748bdb2db776ae16cdc6f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That does not help the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222baf5a928b8d4d0681020a509e27e465\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with commentator Vernon Small that the car-park tax is one of \u201Ca series of petty tax increases that are more about the elusive Budget surplus than fairness and good tax design.\u201D and includes measures like the paper boy tax, increased prescription charges, increased petrol excise, student loan costs, and his equally popular proposals to tax private cellphone use and accommodation for rebuild workers in Christchurch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022569bc1f4c7b741daa6d914837b0bce00\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very long question, but in terms of the characterisation reported by the eminent Dr Small, the issue in regard to fairness is actually quite an interesting one. I think the officials can make the case that this actually would create more fairness, because currently different types of car-parks in cities are treated in different ways. Nevertheless, the compliance costs are important. In fact, if the Government chose not to go ahead, it would actually be, I think, characterised as not particularly fair in relation to different car-parks. But, of course, practicality comes into it as well, and that is why we are watching closely to see the outcome of the select committee\u2019s deliberations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa239d6fe2c45818da6f344452144de\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Revenue consider that he can now continue in his portfolio, given that there are reports that \u201CNational Party officials at the very highest levels\u201D have told media that they are \u201Ctrying to shift the heat to Dunne\u201D, and that this is a blatant abrogation of the confidence and supply agreement with United Future, which demands \u201Cconfidentiality, collective responsibility, and recognition of his position as Minister of Revenue\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225beb6c7122584d879bae7443af6903c3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I think there is an old statement about believing half of what you hear and a third of what you see, and I think it would apply in this particular instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226014c5bd40c9405295005e6bd6eb17ef\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table analysis by independent chartered accountants Lock and Partners showing that the compliance cost of this tax is twice the recommended\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245beedfe846542048d7f8daedcc7a327\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And is it available publicly? I suspect that it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0a0bf5c094417c80d2946af2970153\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: No, not publicly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294032cc72ea742399033c72f28c84f8b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? No, there is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf045e10bfe44ef8633fd7b333da86a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the confidence and supply agreement between the Minister of Revenue\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378c00a0dd66406fa718e6241766d918\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is certainly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288dd203541f547bd95efbc8d426d8219\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table this rather endearing little moniker \u201CNo car-park tax. Stop John Key\u2019s\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a9c85ffaccc4529b18ce7dcd3837a8d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. That is not necessary to inform the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4b81ca104a4db793d93f35c55e5563\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is not yet readily available\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e874ef7af0d541119cc0e1cf9b936da5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And it certainly\u2014[Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. [Interruption] Order! And it will not be tabled, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb67269566c3477da10f459c70c011ae\u0022\u003EChild Health Services\u2014Free General Practitioner Visits for Under-sixes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c991572d030b49c081e388ea83225e83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c991572d030b49c081e388ea83225e83\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What progress is the Government making on access to free GP visits for children aged under 6?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220315efc3bf41477e9ac45b4dfd30eade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220315efc3bf41477e9ac45b4dfd30eade\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E More children than ever are now able to see a general practitioner at no cost, thanks to the Government\u2019s $30 million zero fees for under-sixes scheme. More than 350,000 children are now receiving free doctors visits during the daytime, and 95 percent of children aged under 6 have access to free general practitioner care after hours. In 2006, under the previous Government, only 77,000 children were receiving free doctors visits during the day, and there was no scheme providing free after-hours doctors visits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e272e1a09a02488db88a1a19d69fb700\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How many general practices are now providing free doctors\u2019 visits to children under 6 during the day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664719537c914180addb54638bc9dcb1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Of the just over 1,000 general practices in the country, 1,004 have opted to provide zero fee doctors visits to children under 6. Recently 12 general practices located in the North Shore, Auckland, Blenheim, Templeton, Rolleston, and Invercargill joined the zero fees scheme, which has enabled 3,500 more children under 6 to see a doctor during the day at no cost. So that is 96 percent of children under 6 who can go to a general practitioner for free during the day and after hours, compared with only 23 percent in 2006. I am sure the member will join with me in thanking general practices around the country for helping out children in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2ef6389979e44b3a6657ad98810d296\u0022\u003EEducation, Ministry\u2014Resignation of Secretary for Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002204025bd7fdf54408816e3a0787eed663\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204025bd7fdf54408816e3a0787eed663\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of State Services: What reasons did the State Services Commission give him for Lesley Longstone\u2019s resignation when he was briefed by them on 6 December 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00222805c61a6f334e3cbfd88da1e7bbfe00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222805c61a6f334e3cbfd88da1e7bbfe00\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E On meeting with the State Services Commission on 6 December, I was advised that Ms Longstone and the State Services Commissioner were in discussions about her standing down as chief executive. This reflected their joint view that there had been a number of issues that had not gone well during 2012, including the relationship with her Minister, and that a change of leadership was necessary to enable the Ministry of Education to move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da7089dfadfe4a10ad9b4e962a45c94c\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister of Education convey any specific concerns about Lesley Longstone\u2019s performance to the State Services Commission; if so, what was the nature of those concerns? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225890d76fce4540f5bf98b54fe7660a86\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: It made it clear that there were issues in the relationship, but I have also had advice from the State Services Commissioner that to discuss performance issues would be a breach of confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de85c4e305a6407a93abfc0e3b480975\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister of Education indicate to the State Services Commission that Lesley Longstone had undertaken any action that was inconsistent with the Government\u2019s direction; if so, what did she do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f982d680e5b4873972042a83e6e140e\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure whether there was an indication that Ms Longstone had undertaken any such action, but it was clear that there were issues in the relationship between the Minister and the chief executive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebbd871f1a3e41559726e5517f8daafc\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did the State Services Commissioner indicate to him at the briefing that Lesley Longstone\u2019s resignation was contingent upon her receiving a payment; if so, did he indicate his agreement that such a payment should be made? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e24bdf5bf944ea7ae93407aebfeb82b\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my recollection, the resignation was not contingent on a payment. However, as subsequently became evident, there was discussion around a payment. But I would emphasise, as I did the other day, that I did not sign off on any payment until after the resignation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221044bc842650403a98049235a883e24c\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When did he indicate to the State Services Commission the Government\u2019s agreement to Lesley Longstone receiving $425,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232091d84e5f2440783639a5d8ac2be01\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: My recollection of it is that it was on 18 December, when the package was put to me following her resignation\u2014or following not the public announcement but the formal conveying of her resignation to the State Services Commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1359a213f242f4a71abbbeaaa6ee8a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the State Services Commissioner, who described Lesley Longstone as \u201Ca highly competent and dedicated individual\u201D and stated that she could be re-employed elsewhere within the Public Service; if so, why does he believe that the public do not have a right to know exactly why it is that she received a $425,000 payout as part of her resignation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b709990cda984acaa23fae75522fa20e\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to say why she received that payout. As I said the other day, there was a certain part that was part of her contract around paying out holiday pay, but there was also a view that to move the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022537dbd47dd804315b776c32ecd92a396\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019d only been there 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ae273cc0174f8dac477656452d1d11\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was contractual. There was a view that, actually, in the context of a $12 billion vote there were things that needed to be done subsequently in education, and there was a mutual agreement that a change of leadership at the ministry was necessary in order for that to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ea3600917b54e46af599420fbbe47fc\u0022\u003EGambling Regulations\u2014Spot Prize Draws\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022e49ccff8ee2144688abed8a61204b568\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e49ccff8ee2144688abed8a61204b568\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What recent announcements has he made about reducing unnecessary red tape under the Gambling Act 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00226d53cd6cab9444deb0af6d6d9d83af95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d53cd6cab9444deb0af6d6d9d83af95\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This week I announced that the Government is considering changes to regulations around spot prize draws. I have released a consultation document, which includes a proposal that spot prize draws at these events should not be classified as gambling. This would mean event organisers do not need to apply for a licence to run spot prizes and can focus on their events rather than red tape. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765046c62187460688296636c2f0699d\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: Why are the changes to the current regulations necessary? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225752ca0900d246aa84f7ce9fb443e42f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Changes have been called for by organisers of events such as fishing competitions and sports events. Problem-gambling organisations report that there is little risk of problem gambling, if any, associated with spot prizes at these events, so I do not believe that rigorous rules are necessary. Event organisers should not have to worry about complying with the Gambling Act when considering spot prizes. They should be able to get on with providing fun activities for families and for their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022255d552cb440498c9a9ae4fec6208fdc\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022701339bd99064403a0da3922483efc16\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022776a6bdb246743f58a17a63ca301061d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022776a6bdb246743f58a17a63ca301061d\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the votes of the Hon John Banks and the Hon Peter Dunne against the amendment in the name of the Rt Hon Winston Peters on the second reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill to be recorded in the Journals of the House of Representatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00228ba603cbf6614f4eaa94862eeb7fcf0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ba603cbf6614f4eaa94862eeb7fcf0a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There is none. The result will be recorded as Ayes 33, Noes 85.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc569dfab91f490d999c9681daa4461e\u0022\u003EPlumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224fc28fadabd54dddb6057b7f2fdd5f6e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022bebcbb0a1b2f4befae0edd9cfbea3b51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bebcbb0a1b2f4befae0edd9cfbea3b51\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill be considered by the Government Administration Committee, that the bill be reported to the House by 22 March 2013, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 188 and 191(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill validates a disciplinary levy and an offence fee set by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board under the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006, which have been scrutinised by the Regulations Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261c250177ee54910b5b92db33e4935d7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Members, please show some courtesy to the Minister who is speaking. It is contagious, and it is within the spirit of the Standing Orders and the Speakers\u2019 rulings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc43f49980fc4ead9e0efdc5e5f46e04\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not contagious! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3495e1d9b624ee9a365dcade5cef292\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I know that you are not contagious, Minister, but something else is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f367f94cddb4491bfeddaf62edd4e52\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: The bill resolves the issue considered by the Regulations Review Committee by empowering the board to charge a new disciplinary and prosecution levy to fund the costs arising out of the board\u2019s prosecution and discipline functions. In addition, the bill also ensures that all Gazette notices containing disciplinary levies set by the board under the 2000 Act are valid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E Essentially, this bill addresses inconsistencies between the board\u2019s functions and the funding provisions in the Act. All of the board\u2019s functions are funded entirely from fees and levies charged to plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers registered under the Act, as is usually the case with other occupational licensing boards within the building and construction portfolio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe board regulates the plumbing, gasfitting, and drainlaying industry so that the public can have confidence that people undertaking those trades are qualified, registered, and regulated. Therefore, it is important to ensure the board has funding for all of the functions it is required to carry out. One of the board\u2019s statutory responsibilities is to prosecute people who carry out illegal sanitary plumbing, gasfitting, and/or drainlaying work. The board had funded this function through part of the disciplinary levy and then the offences fee. However, the Act empowered the board to set a disciplinary levy to fund the costs of complaints and discipline only in relation to registered persons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn February 2011 the Regulations Review Committee concluded that the disciplinary levy imposed by the board since 31 July 2010 should be drawn to the special attention of the House of Representatives, and the Regulations Review Committee recommended disallowance of the disciplinary levy. As members may remember, on 12 May 2011\u2014in fact, I am sure they remember it vividly\u2014the chair of the Regulations Review Committee moved a motion to disallow the disciplinary levy with effect from the end of the board\u2019s registration year, 31 March 2012. However, this motion was not agreed to. As a result the board changed its fee and levy structure and removed the part of the disciplinary levy that was funding prosecutions against non-registered persons and set an offences fee to fund its prosecution function instead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe Regulations Review Committee is currently considering the validity of the offences fee prescribed by the board. If the Regulations Review Committee also recommends disallowance of the offences fee, the board could be left unfunded to carry out its statutory prosecution functions. Therefore, without this validating legislation the board would be placed under significant financial pressure and would be unable to carry out its important statutory functions that directly affect the safety and the well-being of New Zealanders. It is essential that we resolve this matter and resolve it quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI move that the Government Administration Committee consider the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill, that the bill be reported back to the House by 22 March, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time\u2014and I think I have already moved all of that accordingly. In fact, I had better finish moving it, because I think I have to finish the moving. OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e05b3b57531f4369a498b093440dcb1a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Not until the debate is concluded, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225541dea440d14204a59b5c3afabec204\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Correct. That is what I thought\u2014that it should be done at the end, but it is in both parts. Someone in my office is doing a bit of a belt and braces here by putting it at the start of the speech and putting it at the end. I will leave it until the end. All I say to the House is that this needs to be done and it needs to be done quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u00228e9db9e6b9ac45e3bbade023d3173ee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e9db9e6b9ac45e3bbade023d3173ee6\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Whenever I have to take a call after the Minister for Building and Construction, the Hon Maurice Williamson, I feel professionally, politically, and morally obliged to raise some important points of clarification. The first point of clarification is that the purpose of this bill, the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill, which the Minister has just introduced, is to validate some actions taken unlawfully by the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board\u2014namely, the board that the Minister appointed. The action concerned referred to the moneys collected by the Minister\u2019s board unlawfully, so we are dealing with an ultra vires issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe second point of clarification is that the Minister\u2019s bill will apply retrospectively. The bill in its current form will apply retrospectively in order to address this board\u2019s ultra vires acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe third point of clarification is a bit historical. The Minister lectured the chair of the Regulations Review Committee quite nicely in relation to the committee\u2019s unanimous disallowance motion. However, his lecturing in May 2011 was rather misleading. In his speech on 12 May 2011 the Minister said: \u201CI say to the chair of the Regulations Review Committee that \u2026 if a small group of people from whatever industry, from whatever sector, come to a select committee and say to that committee they are unhappy and think something is wrong, then that committee has an obligation to go out and ask whether there is any industry association or any large body out there that represents that industry, and to get them to find out their view.\u201D, and so on and so forth. Of course the committee has such an obligation, and as far as the issues were concerned, the complaints were not from a small group of stakeholders. The sector is unhappily divided and, in the Minister\u2019s own words, the whole issue of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board has been quite shambolic for a long period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe Minister seems to have criticised the Regulations Review Committee for its diligence and professionalism, so the point of clarification here is that the Regulations Review Committee is a very important part of Parliament\u2019s processes. Its decision then, in relation to the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board (Fees) Notice 2010, was made unanimously with the support of both the Government and Opposition members on that committee. The committee did give the board the opportunity to reply and it did not consider the submissions in isolation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAlso, it is appropriate for me to point out that there are actually two professional associations representing the vast majority of the sector. The master plumbers association the Minister referred to in his speech, the Master Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers (NZ) Inc., is one. The Minister said in 2010 that it had 733 businesses as its members. There is another association called the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Federation, and, using 2010 data, it shows that it had 900 or so members. To be fair and scientifically truthful to the sector the Minister cannot support one and ignore the other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe federation alleges that the board members are made up largely of members of the master plumbers association. If it is true, it may help explain why the master plumbers association was opposed to the disallowance motion of the Regulations Review Committee. It also helps to explain why the Minister has to resort to such a bill to bail out the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EOther allegations made so far include that, firstly, the reason why the Minister has to resort to introducing such a bill, which has retrospective effect, is to try to stop the federation from taking more legal action against the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESecondly, both the board and the Minister knew the money had been taken from the industry illegally, and this will prevent the industry from ever claiming that money back. Therefore, this bill is nothing more than a cynical exercise by the Minister, Maurice Williamson, to cover his mistakes of the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThirdly, recent events have revealed that some of the information being supplied to the public by way of the board\u2019s electronic gas certificates is false, incomplete, and misleading. The federation believes that this affects thousands of gas certificates that were integrated into the current electronic gas certificate system. This is a very serious allegation. The complainant believed that the nature of the false and misleading information places at risk the public and tradespeople alike. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI agree that the board has a colourful history. It has been the subject of a complaint to the Office of the Auditor-General, Parliament\u2019s Regulations Review Committee, the Office of the Ombudsmen, the Charities Commission, and the Inland Revenue Department. I wonder what the Minister might say now in light of his statement in 2011 that the board was poor in the past, OK at present, and \u201Clooking to get the future quite tidy.\u201D Resorting to such a bill to validate unlawful acts does not strike me as something tidy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELabour supports, with reservations, this bill\u2019s referral to a select committee. It is important that concerned parties have the opportunity to debate and air their concerns about the bill at the select committee stage. By supporting this bill\u2019s referral to a select committee, Labour is not uncritically sanctioning the board\u2019s conduct in 2010, when it acted ultra vires, or beyond the scope of its levy power as defined in section 143 of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act. Rather, enabling the bill to reach the select committee stage will give all concerned parties an opportunity to be heard on these issues. It must be emphasised that validating legislation needs to be approached with considerable caution, and this is such a bill. It makes actions that were previously thought lawful and that have since been found unlawful actually lawful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAs Labour\u2019s spokesperson for building and construction, I wish to emphasise that we are supporting the board, the master plumbers association and the federation. The sector, namely the board, the members, and all tradespeople involved, protect the health and safety of the public, and, specifically for the board, it fulfils its statutory duty by regulating and ensuring the competency of the tradespeople carrying out sanitary plumbing, gasfitting, and drainlaying work. Although we are facing bigger issues such as the leaky buildings saga, I urge the Minister to be cautious, because we are talking about the quality of people\u2019s lives. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002233a9e09c85d242359b1554ec6fcc0af3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233a9e09c85d242359b1554ec6fcc0af3\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E May I say what a pleasure it is to rise to speak in favour of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill as sponsored by the Minister for Building and Construction, Maurice Williamson, and indeed to follow the previous speaker, Raymond Huo, who clearly understands the circumstances and the situation of this bill coming before the House. I must say it is a pleasant continuum of my parliamentary career, because in 2005 I served on the Commerce Committee. Even though we were in Opposition, it none the less had an Opposition chair. At that stage we handled the Gasfitters, Plumbers, and Drainlayers Bill. I see the Hon Maryan Street nodding. You remember the event? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfbd682b2e3646aea51e192bc1d32ec8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not actually, so please do not bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e0dbe71e484243a5b9d5a64954b72d\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I notice that the Hon Maryan Street does remember, and it was a fascinating and very engaging bill. They are a remarkably dedicated body of people, and I found the whole thing particularly interesting. They did have problems as an organisation and I like to think that we were able to help them. The problems continued on for a while, but consistently there have been improvements in the direction that this very, very important industry has been going in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI note the concerns of the previous speaker that we should be cautious with this, that it is retrospective, that it is validating, and that sort of thing. He is quite correct, but it is a very important bill, which we progress none the less. It is a bill that will capture few, if any, headlines, but this does not take away from the importance of its field or its intent. The bill tidies up legislation around the funding of the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board so that it can effectively do its job of protecting public safety. The bill also validates the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board\u2019s disciplinary levy, which funds investigations and prosecutions of plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers who are found to have been in breach of best practices or who are practising without the proper skills or qualifications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ELet us remember the difficulty we had in maintaining the volume of plumbers that we needed. Recently during a prime ministerial visit to the West Coast we visited a plumber\u2019s business that had been highlighted by the development trust on the West Coast as the business of the year. It is fascinating to see the level of skill, qualification, and dedication that is required to ensure that the services are properly passed on to houses. Plumbers, in fact, may I suggest, do more for longevity than the health services do at a medical level, because they look after our well-being prior to illness and disease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe amendments that are being proposed are in keeping with the original intent of the law. That is the reassuring bit. It is clear that the Government\u2019s intention was always for the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board\u2019s prosecution function to be funded by the industry. All its statutory functions are funded through fees and levies charged under the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006\u2014that famous one that Maryan Street remembers. The clarifications this amendment bill makes are simply a move to reflect the true meaning and purpose of the law as it should have been put forward. I look forward to working towards this with my colleagues on the Government Administration Committee, who have proved over recent months their ability to handle with competence and focus bills both large in prognostication and division as well as those of a forthright and logical nature like this one. I support this bill coming to the committee, and I call on the House to do the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022055f71bf26ad4ec5a8b8a605630a02be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022055f71bf26ad4ec5a8b8a605630a02be\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, Mr Assistant Speaker. I want to say to the member who just spoke, Chris Auchinvole, is this it? Is this all we have? On this Thursday we are debating plumbers, drainlayers, and gasfitters? Is that all there is from this Government? What about unemployment? What about the 16 percent of Pacific Island people who are unemployed? It would not be so bad if we were talking about injecting money to create more jobs. It would not be so bad if we were injecting money for the education of young people so that we would have more plumbers, drainlayers, and gasfitters. But is this it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI say that because earlier this week we had a petition of the people\u2014boxes and boxes of thousands of petitions, signed by over 390,000 people, who are saying to this Government: \u201CStop the sale of assets.\u201D And yet on Thursday, instead of debating that, we are having to debate the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e517dbc6ad243539b6bff883c6b593c\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: This will lead the news. This will lead the news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a810c866f7473f945e779ae318d916\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I would say I think it is the wrong priority for this Minister for Building and Construction to introduce this bill. It may be important, and it may be necessary, but in so far as the New Zealand public are concerned this is not the priority\u2014this is not the priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Raymond Huo has outlined, it is unfortunate that the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act of 2006, after so long, now requires amendment in order to correct some anomalies that have occurred. I suppose, to be fair, the board protects the health and safety of the public by regulating and ensuring the competency of persons carrying out sanitary plumbing, gasfitting, and drainlaying work. The board is funded entirely by the fees and levies charged to plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers registered under this Act, and it is very similar to other occupational licensing boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut the board made a mistake. Although I am not a member of that particular select committee I have to ask why it was that the board did not recognise the mistake that it had made. If it were not for the vigilance of the Regulations Review Committee, which in 2011 picked up on what had occurred and concluded that the board appeared to have made an unusual or unexpected use of the levy power, it would not have been picked up, I suspect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIn so far as Labour is concerned there are some issues in this bill that we have reservations about, but we will support this bill going to the select committee because I think the select committee is probably the more appropriate place for those who are directly going to be affected by the bill, those who are in this industry, and all other interested parties to raise their concerns, to raise their questions, and to allow members of that select committee to critique, analyse, and make appropriate recommendations with regard to making sure that the bill achieves its particular purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI understand that the purpose of the bill is to get rid of the uncertified practitioners in the industry. I am sort of surprised that whilst collecting moneys from the plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers solely for the purposes of prosecuting them, that the board also started using this particular money to prosecute those who are not registered. That is of concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b407ab2c450d433598544eea12fadb7e\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Well, every other profession does that. Architects do it. Electrical workers do that. This only brings them into line with everyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e752a3fd5f124643a9df796b3fb552f9\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I understand that the board imposed a disciplinary levy to fund the enforcement of its activities against those who breached the law, but it went outside that law and began to then also look at those who were not registered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESo I think it is a good thing that we do bring it in and ensure that the industry maintains its credibility. It is about ensuring that the New Zealand public are protected\u2014and we see it on television time and time again. In fact, I have had some dealings in my own personal situation where one plumber came in and carried out some work, and a few months later I had to call another plumber, and that particular plumber raised the fact that the first plumber had been using the wrong materials. So in terms of making sure that we have got protection for our consumers and our communities, I think that is particularly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI think what needs to be made clear, though, is that Labour is not uncritically sanctioning the board\u2019s conduct\u2014that it acted ultra vires, or beyond the scope of its levy power. Rather, I think it is going to be particularly important that this bill goes to a select committee, and that anybody and everybody who has an interest in this ought to be given an opportunity to submit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIn essence, one thing that, really, I have difficulty with\u2014and I made this point earlier\u2014is that what this bill does is takes actions that were previously thought lawful and have since been found unlawful, and tries to make them lawful again. There are some other cases around this country that, I think, will cause some serious concerns in local communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI think that the work the Regulations Review Committee did when it first considered the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board fees notice in 2010 ought to be commended. The select committee considered that the board had made \u201Can unusual or unexpected use of the levy power in section 143 of the Act.\u201D, as the board used the disciplinary levy to fund enforcement action against non-registered persons. I note that section 143 provides for the board to set a levy to fund only the cost of complaints and discipline in relation to registered persons. I also note that the disciplinary levy validated from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008 inclusive is $25. Look at how this quickly picks up. From 1 April 2008 to 30 July 2010 inclusive it becomes $50, and then from 31 July 2010 to 11 January 2012 it is $266. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ERegarding those who are in the industry and those who are practising their craft, I would call on all of those organisations to make sure they have a say, because I think that they would be seriously concerned about the quick movement of those particular levies, particularly when there is such high unemployment currently in our country. Despite the job opportunities that this Government attempts to spin to the media, the fact remains that we still have high unemployment. It is the highest in 13 years. In fact, for Pacific communities it is 16 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut, as I said, is this all that this Government has for us to debate? Is this it\u2014that, despite the worst economic history in 51 years, we are here tonight debating the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill? I think the public listening in to this will be saying to every member of that Government there: \u201CIs this what we put you in there to do?\u201D. It is tweaking all around these plumbers and gasfitters, these little things that the board itself should have taken care of. Instead, we are here on Thursday debating this when there are the more serious issues of families struggling to make ends meet. This Government should have made that the priority rather than plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers. How sad is it that this Government is debating this when there are so many people looking to it for leadership. I think that they will be very, very disappointed, not only in this Minister but in the entire Government on that particular side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u002283f1ead3bfdb4fd892b94fee8fe3f39b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f1ead3bfdb4fd892b94fee8fe3f39b\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E When we were first approached by the Minister for Building and Construction, Maurice Williamson, about this Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill, the Green Party was prepared to indicate our tentative support for the changes that it made. However, we did have substantial concerns about the process, including the constrained period of time for the select committee to consider the bill, and at this point we have to say that those concerns remain and are so substantial that we are unable to support the bill at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EWe know in the Green Party that the grievances and complaints concerning the levies and fees charged by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board have been ongoing for some time. As we have heard, in the past that board used to charge a disciplinary levy to all those registered under the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act, and this levy was used to fund the board\u2019s complaints and disciplinary processes. In 2010, after considering a complaint, the Regulations Review Committee recommended that this levy be disallowed, as it was being used to fund complaints and disciplinary processes against unregistered people as well as those registered under the Act, while only registered people were paying the levy. In response to the report of the Regulations Review Committee, the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board replaced that levy with an offences fee, which carried essentially the same function. Now, as we know, a second complaint about this offences fee is currently before the Regulations Review Committee, and although that committee is yet to report on this complaint, there is a risk that if the offences fee too is disallowed, then the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board will be required to refund the moneys it has collected under both the levy and the fee, and that will leave it in a financially unviable position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EWhen the Act that created the board was passed in 2006 it was arguably and quite likely the intention of Parliament that the board\u2019s disciplinary and prosecutorial role would be funded by a levy of this nature paid by those registered under the Act, as is the case in other construction industry boards. However, the Act as it is currently worded seems to fall short of this. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am finding myself rather distracted by interjections flying between other members of the House. If we could have a stop to that, it would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5a111445ae34805904f3e144cb88312\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, can I just advise the member that interjections from one side to the other are perfectly in order. However, I recognise that because of where the member is sitting\u2014and the member should know this now; she has been here long enough\u2014any interjections from the cross benches can affect the microphone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277039461a3004187b0e03c3806517090\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, the Act as it is currently worded seems to fall short of what Parliament intended in 2006. So this amendment bill would fix that loophole by retrospectively validating the funds collected through both the levy and the fee, and allow the board to continue to collect in this manner. As I mentioned at the beginning, when approached about this the Green Party was prepared to offer tentative support to allow this bill to be sent to a select committee so that the issues could be traversed. The amendments in this bill are, we believe, potentially sensible and they may settle what has been a long-running dispute between the board and some of its members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EHowever, I think all members of this House would agree\u2014at least, I certainly hope they would\u2014that legislation with retrospective application should be approached very carefully indeed and with meticulous precision and scrutiny. The Green Party has serious concerns about the process and time frames proposed for this bill, to allow that level of scrutiny to occur. We know that the bill has had to be drafted quite quickly, and although that is no criticism of the drafters, simply a statement of fact, when legislation is drafted very quickly it can often contain errors or omissions. These are picked up, ideally, by the scrutiny applied at the select committee hearing. However, in this case that hardly seems likely, given that the time frame proposed for the select committee to consider this bill is just 1 week. I believe we will have a chance soon to debate this shortened time frame, when the Minister seeks permission from the House for that. But for now, suffice it to say that, especially because of its retrospective nature, this bill requires very close scrutiny and it will not get that from a 1-week select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EFurthermore, as a number of speakers have already noted, the issues and complaints regarding the levies or fees raised by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board have been controversial and the source of much strife and division over a number of years. So therefore there are likely to be many individuals affected by this bill, not least the authors of the most recent complaint to the Regulations Review Committee who deserve to be treated with natural justice and due process. The rushed process followed with this bill, I believe, risks creating a new injustice that will only compound the strife and bitterness now so ingrained in this sector. Given that this bill is designed primarily to put a stop to that, we should be very careful about risking compounding the sense of unfairness and injustice in that sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EIt may very well be that we need to fix the messy situation that the board has now found itself in. The Green Party could support fair, thoroughly drafted legislation to achieve this, provided we were satisfied that a proper process has been followed. But we cannot be confident of that at present. We have indicated to the Minister our willingness to support changes, like those proposed in the bill, but our concern is about the time frame as proposed. Retrospective legislation should not be entered into lightly. It should be very rare, and when it occurs it should be meticulously drafted and scrutinised. In our view the bill at the moment does not meet this test. The 1-week select committee time frame proposed would not allow for the appropriate level of scrutiny for a retrospective piece of legislation, and the Green Party therefore cannot support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00222c93d79bccde44c09ea96fd449f3f49a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c93d79bccde44c09ea96fd449f3f49a\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to support this piece of legislation, the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill. Clearly, it is a piece of legislation that we wish we did not have to deal with right now, but it is important because when Parliament made some decisions in 2006 on the existing Act it made some mistakes. [Interruption] I hear the member from New Zealand First calling out. I might remind her that it was a Labour - New Zealand First coalition at the time that it was in place, so, hey, if she wants to take ownership of the mistake, she is welcome to. But it is clearly a mistake that we have to fix up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe reason why we have to fix this up is that the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board is an important occupational licensing body that is in place to protect New Zealanders. We need to give it the mandate and give it the ability to fund an important part of its job, which is keeping the public safe by ensuring that plumbers are doing their jobs properly and that gasfitters are not operating without a licence and in an unsafe manner. There have been situations where members of the public have been put at risk, have had their lives put in danger, because unlicensed individuals have not been doing work appropriately. We expect this body that we are debating to be able to go out and do its job, look after the public, and ensure that unlicensed individuals are not putting lives unnecessarily in danger. It has to be able to fund that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EClearly, there was a situation in 2006 where an incorrect clause in a piece of legislation was put in place, which has led to us now having to fix it up. It is not good, but we have to do it. I say to the members who are opposed to this bill that opposing it, and potentially getting into a situation where the board is unable to fund its activities if the regulations were ever to be disallowed, would lead to a very precarious financial situation for the board. The board could potentially become insolvent, and then it just could not operate at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EIt is not desirable to do this on a regular basis, but sometimes it is important to do so. We are doing it to protect the public and to ensure that the board can do its work properly. That is what the legislation is all about, and this party supports that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022d06750205ab540a4ae1a4d0b8d1cc138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d06750205ab540a4ae1a4d0b8d1cc138\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It seems to me to be one of the great unanswered existential questions as to why the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board has had such a fraught and wretched history, because every time I have ever employed a plumber, a gasfitter, or a drainlayer they have turned out to be perfectly jolly men and have got on with the job. So to have this level of controversy bedevil this board over many years is something that some of us in this House find fairly inexplicable. I do want to make a reference to the fact that this goes back to 2006 legislation, as the previous speaker who has just resumed his seat, Jami-Lee Ross, said. That is absolutely true. It was a complex piece of legislation at the time. I remember it well, as the member Chris Auchinvole referred to earlier, and it had to be divided into two parts in order to try to get it right. But the interesting thing, perhaps for the member who has just resumed his seat, is that the fault with this bill did not become apparent to either Labour or National until 2010. So this is not something about which the National members can say \u201COh, we spotted this years ago, and you guys just didn\u2019t do anything about it.\u201D It did not come to light. They were not aware of it. We were not aware that the provision would be misused in this way until 2010, when an additional levy was applied by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board in order, as I understand it, to try to get the cowboys out of the industry, and that is the purpose of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut the purpose of the board was to gather revenue in order to prosecute and investigate any breaches of the Acts that covered their activities. But the Act applied to registered people only. So perhaps another lesson in this for the public is: for goodness\u2019 sake, make sure you get a registered plumber, gasfitter, or drainlayer, and do not go for one of the cowboys who say \u201COh, I\u2019ve got a spare piece of that in the back of my van\u2014it\u2019ll just do the trick.\u201D So the lesson to any householder at home is to make sure that you get a registered person. However, that is not the subject of the bill, although it is the purpose of the bill, as it says quite clearly, to get rid of uncertified practitioners in the industry. As I understand it, this is what the board was attempting to do with this levy, which has turned out to be illegal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThat discovery came through the application of the Regulations Review Committee. At the time that the original legislation was going through the House, I was also on the Regulations Review Committee in 2005 and 2006, and most of 2007. I remember this coming there, and I remember complaints and the board appearing in front of the Regulations Review Committee as well. But this has come to light because of the scrutiny of the Regulations Review Committee, which goes to underscore just how important that committee is, because it scrutinises things that otherwise do not get any parliamentary scrutiny. That is its purpose, and it performs a hugely important function in that respect. Everything we vote on comes to this House for a vote. The things we do not vote on that are exercised by regulation promulgated by Ministers and Orders in Council do not get scrutinised by this House. So we need to respect the view of the Regulations Review Committee\u2014not only respect its view but also respect its function. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI need to say that I dislike, to my core, retrospective legislation, and this is the second time in 2 weeks I have got up to make a speech about retrospective legislation. The last time was on the Tasman District Council validation of rates that had been misapplied. I hate it, but we are in the situation where this House has very few alternatives. We either bankrupt the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board, which is in nobody\u2019s interests\u2014not the industry\u2019s interests, not the members\u2019 interests, and not the interests of ordinary people who require the services of these tradespeople. So I have to bite the bullet on this one. I do not like retrospective validating legislation. It is correcting an error. Somebody has done something illegal, and Parliament has to fix it, otherwise people will suffer as a result. So for that reason Labour is supporting this bill, but not without reservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere is one other item that I want to bring to the House\u2019s attention. I bring it to attention in this first reading because there is such a short time frame for the Government Administration Committee to consider this bill\u2014and the previous speaker from the Green Party, Holly Walker, referred to that substantially\u2014but there are some things in the content of the bill itself that require some reconciliation. I hope that the officials of the Minister for Building and Construction will, during the week that the bill is in front of the select committee, provide the select committee with some way of resolving new section 143(1) in clause 4, which provides the new process by which the board may legitimately apply a levy for disciplinary and prosecution purposes, with the new section 171B, which comes under clause 5 in Part 2 of the bill, and refers to the fact that any amendment on the date or after the date that this bill comes into force will render the previous validation ineffective. So the validation that we are trying to pass here will cease to apply if the board moves to make an amendment to the fee on or after this bill has come into effect and become an Act. I think there is a contradiction between those two things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI think that if the section 142 power that was used by the board to prescribe the original offence fee was dubious enough to require validation by this bill, then surely it cannot be a lawful basis for the board to use in amending the fee. If the bill is enacted, an argument can be made that the section 142 power, in so far as it was applied in prescribing the offence fee, is implicitly repealed by the new empowering provision inserted into clause 4 of the bill. I do think that the policy intent behind new section 171B is to tell the board that if it amends the offence then it will not have the protection of the validation provided for in the bill. I think this sends confusing signals. I know the Minister\u2019s office and the Minister are aware of my concerns in this regard, and I would hope that officials would be able to mend what I see as a difficult set of competing signals before the bill is passed into law. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00221a52ac3a713b40a3bcfddfe45ac035ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a52ac3a713b40a3bcfddfe45ac035ba\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E This vexing issue has been before the Regulations Review Committee for the entire time that I have been part of this House, which is a bit over a year now. Certainly, as the previous speaker, the Hon Maryan Street, alluded to, it has been before the Regulations Review Committee since around 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EBefore I make a few comments on that, I do want to comment on a couple of issues that Su\u2019a William Sio raised, because I think they need some addressing. One could be depressed by the current cricket score, but, also, you could definitely have been depressed by the first minute or so of his speech. He clearly lost his way, as the policies of this Government will almost certainly provide more and better-paid jobs for people, and certainly for plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EHaving got that off my chest, I just want to go on to make a few points about this bill, the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill, because it is quite important, I think. Although I am not keen on retrospective legislation, and I do not think anyone in this House is keen on it, it is at times necessary to put in place legislation that tidies up some issues for us. All boards in the building and construction sector are funded by fees and levies charged to their industry. This bill validates that situation for the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board, and puts it on a par with other industry bodies. The matter arises from its desire to rid the industry of unskilled and unqualified operators. There is no way to protect its members and clients from what may be termed unskilled or shonky operators other than for the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board to pursue and prosecute as required. We need to remember that this activity also protects the consumer from this danger or shonky work, and that is certainly a very important part of this Parliament\u2019s work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAs I have said, the bill has arisen after a number of attempts by both the Regulations Review Committee and the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board to rectify the situation. I must also defend the Minister for Building and Construction, because I do not recall him ever criticising the Regulations Review Committee, as Raymond Huo stated earlier. This is a pragmatic approach to a problem that was clearly an error in earlier drafting of the Act, both in 2000 and in 2006. It was clearly the intention of the Government of the day that the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board have the ability to police its own industry, to keep it under control, and to make sure that it was run rationally and in a manner that certainly protected its clients and the public from what was going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have got no problem in recommending that this bill go to the next stage. I am also pleased to see that it will be back in the House very quickly, as I think it is necessary that we get this sort of work done quickly, tidied up, and moved on. I also have some sympathy for the complainants in this matter, as they have spent a lot of time and energy putting those complaints to the Regulations Review Committee. I am sure that this solution will overcome those problems for the industry. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00228c156bd8acba43789527f36c2e9cf841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c156bd8acba43789527f36c2e9cf841\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I am willing to lay a bet that when the Hon Maurice Williamson took up his warrant as the building and construction Minister, sorting out the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board was probably not high on his list of strategic priorities\u2014Maurice\u2019s to-do list. I guess one late night 4 years ago he was sitting in the Bolton Hotel scribbling a list of things he wanted to achieve as Minister, and sorting out the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board probably was not one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that the problems of the plumbing, gasfitting, and drainlaying industry and the problems associated with that industry\u2019s board have been the bane of the lives of a number of building and construction Ministers over the last few years. It is a troubled industry. The dysfunctional relationships in that industry\u2014I think it is fair to say\u2014have plagued the operation of the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board, and that sort of entrenched animosity between members of the board and people involved in, I think, two different industry associations has tied up what should be an effective mechanism to regulate and clean up an industry. It has been plagued by fighting and animosity for some time. This bill, the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill, is not the first plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers legislation to come before this House in the last few years. I think we are probably all hoping that it will be the last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2039dba212e413eb8b04288240420a4\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9817fa320e04aa8b80978c73c89b30a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Labour supports this bill. Well, you know, I have a lot of sympathy for the remarks of Su\u2019a William Sio, who pointed out\u2014I think quite rightly\u2014that the people of New Zealand would like this Parliament to be focusing on things that are more of a priority for them. They want education sorted out. They want jobs. They want child poverty dealt with. They want Auckland\u2019s housing crisis addressed. Instead, the Government, Ministers like the Hon Maurice Williamson, and this Parliament are having to spend time on what for most Kiwis is a pretty obscure piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E I want simply to underline some of the comments that my colleagues Raymond Huo, Maryan Street, and Su\u2019a William Sio have already made, and that is that Labour is supporting this bill going to the Government Administration Committee, because we feel that the issues deserve to be aired and that the various warring parties in the industry deserve the opportunity to come along, have a say, and see whether or not this bill can sort out the mess that the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board has got itself into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe have rehearsed already our discomfort with the fact that this is retrospective legislation that is seeking to validate a practice that should never have taken place. The Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board should never have been using a levy that it extracted from registered members of its industry to prosecute and discipline members of the industry who are not registered members. As the Minister said earlier, it is perfectly normal in this kind of situation for an industry body like this, which is charged with maintaining standards and regulating the industry, to exercise a disciplinary role for registered and non-registered members. The problem is that the enabling legislation for this board restricted its purview to registered members of the board. So the board has got itself into a real pickle here, and it needs this House to retrospectively validate those levies that have been spent in a way that they were not supposed to be. As Maryan Street said, we can thank the Regulations Review Committee, which has done its job well. It identified what I think it described as an unusual or unexpected use of the levy power, and it has pursued this issue with some diligence over the last year or so. So we owe thanks to the Regulations Review Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EMy colleagues have pointed out also that Labour, by supporting the bill at this stage, is not uncritically supporting the conduct of the board. We are not endorsing the behaviour of the board in acting beyond the law\u2014acting, in fact, beyond the scope of its levy power. Rather, what we want to do is send this bill off to the select committee, try to get the problem sorted out, and give all the parties a chance to get in the room and express their views. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to just provide some background about the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board for those people listening. Its job is to protect the health and safety of the public by regulating and ensuring the competency of people in trades carrying out sanitary, plumbing, gasfitting, and drainlaying work. This bill allows the board to continue to collect offence fees. Currently, it is about $600,000 a year from registered persons for this 2013 licensing year. This bill validates both the disciplinary levy and offence fees in the past and changes the rules for the future. The effect of this is that the board cannot be required by registered persons to refund the moneys that were collected unlawfully by the board. I think, as Maryan Street pointed out, if we do not do that, basically, the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board will go belly up, and that will make a complicated and difficult situation much worse. So we support the bill on the basis that it is a necessary evil and something that needs to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe last thing I would like to do is just touch on the main provisions of the bill. Section 143 of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act is the empowering provision, allowing the board to impose a disciplinary levy on registered plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers. The board is allowed to use that levy for investigations into allegations or complaints against registered persons only and for disciplinary proceedings. Well, what this bill does is it empowers the board to impose those levies against registered members, but it enables the board to use those levies for prosecuting or disciplining any\u2014either registered or unregistered\u2014players in the industry. So it extends the purpose for which the board may impose the levy, and clause 4 of the bill amends section 143 of the Act in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EFinally, Part 2 of the bill is the validation clause. What it does is it retrospectively validates the disciplinary levy and offence fees that were imposed between 1 April 2007 and 11 January 2012.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022eae37ad97777445fa140b6bad20c7ff6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eae37ad97777445fa140b6bad20c7ff6\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Although I am happy to take a call in support of this bill, the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill, it is fair to say that no one takes any pleasure from speaking to a bill that seeks to validate, essentially, mistakes of this House. All that said, this is not a situation where the intended purpose of the original Act, drafted in 2006, has not been sought to be achieved. I am one of the members of the Regulations Review Committee, which has tangled with this issue over the past year, or certainly since I have been a member of this House, and it was obviously a problem long before that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board has had its fair share of challenges and troubles over the years, and this has certainly complicated the challenges that it has. Having said that, it is quite clear that the board, which is funded entirely through levies, has gone about executing its role, in terms of disciplinary prosecutions and procedures, in the best interests of the entire industry and, in fact, in the best interests of all New Zealanders, because of the inherent dangers that would come from shonky practices, as alluded to by the Minister. Where the difficulties have arisen is that in the original drafting of the law there is some degree of difficulty about the difference between a levy and a fee, and the fact that the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board sought to take prosecutions against people who are not actually registered plumbers. Submissions by plumbers and gasfitters to the Regulations Review Committee certainly alluded to their concerns about this, but I think it was generally accepted by all that it is actually in the best interests of the industry as a whole that those who are not registered and who are bringing the industry into disrepute and putting members of the New Zealand public at risk are actually held to account, and the board is really the only body that is geared up to achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003ESo what we have in this validation legislation is retrospectively dealing with the ultra vires problems that have arisen through a board that has actually followed the intent of the law, but the law in itself has not provided the appropriate platform. It sounds black and white talking about it here, but I can absolutely say that it is not, and that is something that the Office of the Auditor-General has also had some challenges in tangling with. But I think the important thing in terms of supporting this bill in a timely manner is that what we are doing here is validating practices that were in line with the original intent. It is very important to give this industry some certainty to New Zealanders and this board, and in that I am happy to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002268b91497986a48b1bfcfd1329439b4ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268b91497986a48b1bfcfd1329439b4ab\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to give the call to the Green member. This is normally a 5-minute call, but you can actually take 10 minutes if you wish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u0022584a12aa5498469689716a8e728bf424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022584a12aa5498469689716a8e728bf424\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will not need 10 minutes, but I am pleased to speak to this Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill. It is unfortunate that there is a retrospective aspect to it, but it would seem appropriate if this organisation, the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board, is going to keep its funding. We oppose this bill at this point but look forward to engaging at the Government Administration Committee, because we think that if this works well, we might be able to revisit our opposition to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThere is clearly a gap in the legislation, but there is also clearly a dysfunctional board as well. The industry is somewhat split. There is some resentful membership, and it seems like in some cases it is the small operators versus the larger operators that the board seems to look after in a much better way. This might be an opportunity for some amendments that can send signals about the functionality of that sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThere is the membership, of course, but there are also outliers who still practise under a mate\u2019s ticket or registration. In some respects, the board and maybe some of this legislation have helped drive that. There are part-timers or tradespeople who are working a range of different skills who are not just drainlayers, for example, or plumbers. I was speaking to one as recently as yesterday, who pointed out that he pays a $300 levy. It might not matter to some people across the House\u2014it may seem a drop in the bucket\u2014but for someone who is doing only drainlaying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee55c75215c41d4b1054a4e073f5b25\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a good expression for plumbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225832cbf77151454c817bba706c2869db\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it is a good pun\u2014and who is working only occasionally, but is still very skilled, and has to travel and then has to pay on top of that a further $380 to do the refreshers to brush up for the registration, this is driving skilled people out. And it is getting into the grey area of operating under someone else\u2019s registration and ticket. The board, in keeping its\u2014let us call it\u2014\u201Cdisputed funds\u201D will need to look at it. I dare say that the board is listening, and I am hoping that it is listening to the debates that go on through this rather shortened process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe board needs to better reflect on what it needs for the whole industry, to be fairly introspective, to make sure it is not operating with conflicts of interest, and to look after New Zealand in total by looking after all the tradespeople, so that we can have good tradespeople who are able to afford to retain their registration and be kept up to date at an affordable rate, so that everyone in the community can benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe oppose the bill at this point, to a fair degree because of the shortened process, although understanding that there is some rationale behind it, and we look forward to how that is distilled through the select committee process. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e51c5e0a25e843ae841d12de21b4b3ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e51c5e0a25e843ae841d12de21b4b3ae\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand as the final speaker on this side of the House for the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill. One of the things that has disturbed me in this debate was the opening contribution by the Labour member of Parliament Raymond Huo, who was so disrespectful to this industry that I was quite shocked. I was quite shocked and I was very disturbed at the tone in which the first Labour speaker spoke about this group of people, who are hard-working New Zealanders, who contribute to the economy, who are local employers, who have trained hard to do the work they do, and who have a really important job in terms of the health and safety of New Zealanders and the sanitation that is available to each and every one of us, and to suggest that this was not important work for the Government I find quite horrendous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I do not know whether I do or do not enjoy about being the final speaker on this side of the House is that I follow some very able colleagues who have spoken at length about the bill, particularly my colleagues whom I want to commend for being on the Regulations Review Committee. It is a committee that is not often given high profile in this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5f1cdaa8f748b6a986484368c81a36\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re the unsung heroes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222972cd3946e64b7793f837444f099126\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but it does do very important work. Unsung heroes\u2014that is correct, Mr Sabin. Those on the Regulations Review Committee are the unsung heroes of the parliamentary select committee process and have the very important job of looking at regulations that are put in place. These ones with the plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers are particularly interesting, and the fact that there has been an issue in terms of the levies that they have been charging and the work that they are using as a result of the levies charged. It is an interesting group, because I have had very, very lengthy conversations with a Taup\u014D constituent about this exact organisation, about the work they do, about how they are registered, and how their fees and levies are applied. It is one of the things that as a member of Parliament you have the opportunity to get involved with and learn about organisations, trades, and employers in areas that you have not really had the opportunity to learn about before coming to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis bill will tidy up a piece of legislation that has been challenging those important people who work in the plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers field. It will be very important for them that the board is able to do the work that it is put in place to do, and this piece of legislation that is brought to the House by the Hon Maurice Williamson enables it to do that. Unlike the other side of the House, I think the work that the plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers do for this country is important. It is important for our Parliament to support the work they do, to support their board, and to make sure that they are able to undertake the work that they need do. I am pleased to support this bill at its first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a0207c5996a445c8bc8e95195de96528\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000333\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00224d5581c04a024b3dab399c6437145665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d5581c04a024b3dab399c6437145665\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Government Administration Committee report the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill to the House on or before 22 March 2013, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 188 and 191(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe shortened select committee report-back period is essential, as the new licensing year commences on 1 April and practitioners are already making licensing payments to the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board. This legislation will provide practitioners and the board with certainty. May I say that if the Regulations Review Committee does actually disallow the old fees and payments, it could be that the board would find itself completely insolvent, and there would be no regulatory body controlling the industry. That is why there is a shortened period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u002231e3a422d8b044ce92a88e755863f7f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231e3a422d8b044ce92a88e755863f7f6\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call in this debate on the shortened process for the Government Administration Committee\u2019s consideration of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill. As I mentioned in my substantive contribution on the bill, the Green Party is concerned about this shortened select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EHaving sat on a select committee dealing with a bill in a shortened 3-week time frame and having found it impossible in that case to do justice to the complex issues or apply the appropriate level of scrutiny to the bill, I cannot imagine how that can be achieved in the 1 week proposed for this bill. In our view, 1 week would be insufficient to adequately deal with any bill through the select committee, let alone one that has retrospective application. In such cases an even greater level of scrutiny should be applied than to a normal bill, and this will be impossible for this bill in 1 week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EFurthermore, we can predict that because of the long-running issues and complaints that prompted this bill, there will be a significant number of affected parties wishing to make submissions and follow the select committee\u2019s process. These people deserve the opportunity to do so, because in many cases the changes proposed in this bill will impact directly on their daily lives and their businesses. One week is not sufficient for these stakeholders to prepare, present, and submit on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party remains strongly opposed to this shortened select committee process. Although we understand that there is some rationale for that shortened process, those concerns are very fundamental. However, we will, as always, engage with the bill at the select committee as constructively as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce94ffa381164874887524baa9020aed\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Government Administration Committee report the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill to the House on or before 22 March 2013, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 188 and 191(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 97\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002291c31422dae94310a2e180f164300447\u0022\u003EMinimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f19a266fdea64db5b3afe378d0091216\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022640377ff8cb1497198b42b676970ef07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022640377ff8cb1497198b42b676970ef07\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I thank the members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and its chair, David Bennett, for dealing with this bill so swiftly and efficiently. The select committee reported back to the House on 26 February and recommended that the bill proceed with some amendments. I agree with the amendments proposed. In addition, I intend to make some minor technical changes to the bill through an amendment to be tabled at the Committee stage. These technical changes will provide further clarity around the meaning of continuous employment, clarity on the timing for which a person is no longer eligible for a starting-out wage, and changes consequential to the Minimum Wage Order 2013 coming into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand and worldwide young people have been severely affected by the recession. The household labour force survey shows that young people under the age of 20 have been more negatively affected in employment terms than older groups of workers. In the past 5 years there has been a drop in employment for young people aged between 15 and 19 years of about 42 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EInternational research shows that long spells of unemployment and inactivity may permanently lower young people\u2019s future employment prospects, particularly where they are low skilled and inexperienced. Like other OECD countries, New Zealand is responding to the negative effects of the global recession on young people. A reduced minimum wage is used in several countries, including Australia and the United Kingdom, to encourage youth employment. We need to ensure that young people are ready and equipped for work as the economic recovery gains momentum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI am confident that the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill will assist young and inexperienced workers to gain a foothold in the labour market. To achieve this aim the bill will enable the setting of reduced minimum wage rates by Order in Council for certain groups of young people aged 16 to 19 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe rates will be set at no less than 80 percent of the adult minimum wage. It is intended that three groups of young people be targeted for the starting-out wage. These are 16 and 17-year-olds in their first 6 months of work with a new employer, 18 and 19-year-olds who have been paid a benefit for 6 months or longer and who have not completed 6 months of continuous work with any employer since starting on the benefit, and 16 to 19-year-olds in training in a recognised industry training course involving at least 40 credits a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe intent of the starting-out wage is to support young people who are new to the workforce into long-term sustainable employment by providing incentives for employers to take them on. For young people the starting-out wage will provide them with an advantage in the labour market so they can gain the necessary skills and work experience that will assist them throughout their working lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe bill limits the period for which an employer can pay a starting-out wage to a young person working for them who is not supervising or training others to a period of 6 months. After this time the young person will be entitled to be paid the adult rate by that employer. This bill encourages continuity with the same employer. Young people\u2014like all employees\u2014with a steady work history are seen as less risky for employers to take on. This puts a focus on young people gaining work experience at a steady job and becoming better equipped for their future employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThis Government recognises that there is a need to provide for more vocational training opportunities for 16 to 19-year-olds. It is important that young people are given opportunities to engage in training for industry. Employers so far have indicated that they are not using the training minimum wage. The bill provides for young people aged between 16 to 19 years who are required to undergo training as a condition of their work to be paid the starting-out wage rather than the minimum training wage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe number of annual training credits will be changed from 60 to 40, through an Order in Council, for 16 to 19-year-olds to give them the flexibility to choose a range of courses without having such a heavy workload. Reducing the credit requirements to at least 40 credits per year for 16 to 19-year-olds will support more young people to gain skills in their chosen industry. The lower credit requirement means that more people will qualify for the starting-out wage than did for the training wage, so more employers will opt to train young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe select committee received a range of submissions on the bill, and it has given thorough consideration to the issues raised by submitters. As a result, some minor amendments have been recommended. An amendment is proposed to clause 2 of the bill, which provides the date on which the bill comes into force. The select committee recommends changing the commencement date of the bill from 1 April to 1 May 2013 to provide sufficient time for employers and young people to be fully informed about how the starting-out wage will affect them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThis will not affect the making of this year\u2019s minimum wage order, which, as it did last year, is intended to come into force on 1 April. Nor will it affect those on the new entrants wage, who will receive the higher of the new entrants rate or the new starting-out wage rate for 16 and 17-year-olds until they have completed their 3 months or 200 hours of employment under the current law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EClause 4 replaces section 4 of the principal Act, which authorises the Governor-General, by Order in Council, to prescribe minimum rates of wages, with new sections 4 to 4B. The select committee proposed a small number of technical amendments to the bill under clause 4 to clarify its operation. One amendment clarifies that when the bill refers to \u201Ccontinuous employment\u201D, continuous work counts from the worker\u2019s first day on the job and is taken to mean any amount of work, regardless of hours per week, done on an ongoing basis for an employer. Another amendment clarifies that the time before a young person turns the age specified in the starting-out wage Order in Council would count towards their eligibility for the starting-out wage. These are sensible recommendations, and I thank the select committee. I would also like to thank the people who took the time to make a submission on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill is the latest in a series of steps the Government is taking to get more New Zealanders into work and into jobs. The Government\u2019s continued focus on getting young people off benefits and into work has already seen thousands of young people benefit from subsidised work placements and pre-employment training. The Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill is part of this wider package to help get more young New Zealanders into work or training. It provides real incentives for employers to take on young people and give them the opportunity to gain work experience and skills that will stand them in good stead for their future working lives and careers. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00220d5a9dcfca8d448a8cb29afefb8a1850\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d5a9dcfca8d448a8cb29afefb8a1850\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I do not think there is anything for that Government to be congratulating itself on, when the time frame for the submissions on this Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill has been shortened. When we are considering something as important as cutting workers\u2019 pay, the least the Government could have done was give the normal period of time, and not rush it through the Christmas period when people did not have the chance to make submissions. Needless to say there were more than 500 submissions\u2014531, actually\u2014received on this bill, of which 522 were opposed; only nine were in favour. The reason for that is that this bill is going to put young workers back on the scrap heap of youth minimum wages. It is the economic failure of this Government and it is putting its failures squarely on the shoulders of our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill reinstates youth rates not only for 16 and 17-year-olds but also for 18 and 19-year-olds\u2014something we have not seen in New Zealand since last century. Rather than making bold plans to tackle the urgent crisis of youth unemployment\u201427,000 under-20-year-olds are not in employment, education, or training\u2014the Prime Minister and the Government have once again demonstrated their contempt for young people and also the fact that they have no ideas. This bill is based on the flawed idea that cutting wages is a way to grow jobs; it is a tried and failed policy of last century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe all know that there is a problem. No one is denying that. There is a national crisis in youth unemployment. But we do not agree that cutting wages for 16 and 17-year-olds or 18 and 19-year-olds who have been on a benefit for 6 months will make the difference that is needed. Cutting wages and making workers easier to fire, as this Government has been doing, has not created jobs in the past for young people, and is not creating jobs now. There are now 90,000 young people out of work, education, and training. That is an increase of more than 10,000 in the last year alone, and that is shameful. That is despite the fact that Government members get up every time they have the opportunity and boast about the 90-day trial period. It has done nothing. It has done nothing to help youth unemployment. I find it very astonishing that the Prime Minister admits he could not live on the minimum wage of $13.50 an hour\u2014soon to go up by a paltry 25c an hour\u2014and, as he admits, at the same time he still expects young people, young 16 to 19-year-olds, to live on something like $10.80 or $10.90 an hour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhat young people need is hope. They need hope and the skills to succeed in the job market and achieve higher incomes and better jobs. Creating a high-skill, high-wage economy is the way to go about this to give our kids hope for the future, not cutting pay. We all know that the next generation of this country is hollowed out. Numbers of our kids are getting on the plane for Oz. Numbers are already saving up their airfare to go to Australia because they know that even there, where there is a youth minimum wage, it is going to be a lot higher than here. But this Government does not listen, it did not listen to the submitters, and it just blunders blindly on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EYou know, what was interesting during the submissions was that even employers were less than enthusiastic about sub-minimum wages. In a survey done by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment last year it found \u201Ca key theme arising from the quantitative interviews was a lack of incentive that reducing the cost of labour or wage rates was for employers in hiring staff or filling vacancies. In fact only a small number of employers suggested reintroducing youth minimum wages would improve their likelihood of employing 16 and 17-year-olds.\u201D The employers are saying that they are not going use this, so it is going to fail in its aim of cutting youth unemployment. The Employers and Manufacturers Association submission was interesting. It told the select committee that cutting youth pay is not a silver bullet and that there needs to be a whole range of measures, of changes, rather than this single, one-eyed approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe fundamental question that goes to the heart of this bill, however, is whether it is fair or right to pay workers less because of their age\u2014to discriminate against them. The implication of this bill is that the work of younger workers is of lesser value than that of older workers, it perpetuates its stereotype of young workers as being unreliable and incapable, and it ignores the fact that many young workers have already had considerable work experience at the age of 16. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EMany people who support youth rates say that young workers need more training and support when they start a new job. But that same logic applies to anyone who starts a new job. There was a time in this country when people said the same about women, and indeed M\u0101ori. They said they were worth less because they were women and because they were M\u0101ori. In fact, up until the early 1970s women on the minimum wage were paid less than men. In the early 20th century M\u0101ori were paid less than other workers. No one today would imagine tolerating that type of discrimination, but here we have the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, which perpetuates discrimination on the basis of age. We cannot discriminate against older people. We cannot discriminate against people on the basis of being older. Some argue that older workers are less productive, yet there is no age-based minimum for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I said at the beginning, this bill will not achieve its aim. It will not deliver on its stated aim of reducing youth unemployment. The regulatory impact statement, which was very interesting, said that \u201Cthe precise nature and extent of the policy\u2019s expected benefits are uncertain.\u201D All the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment could do was guess. And its best guess is that this bill will create only 400 to 1,100 net new jobs. Even if true, and that is taking into account the displacement that will occur for older workers, this is only a drop in the bucket compared with the 250,000, sixteen to 19-year-olds in New Zealand. Even those figures have to be treated with extreme caution. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment said it cannot project the impact of the policy. It cannot tell us that this policy will work. It cannot do it with any accuracy, and it was quite explicit that it did not have the information it needed to make a credible estimate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EDespite the Minister claiming that youth rates are voluntary and that workers do not have to accept sub-minimum wages under this bill, if they do not accept a job\u2014these are 18 and 19-year-olds who have been on a benefit, and let us remember we are not talking just about the unemployment benefit here, we are talking about sickness and invalids benefits\u2014and Work and Income judges it to have been a suitable job, they have to be stood down. They can be stood down from any support from Work and Income for 13 weeks. Poor young worker gets out of bed, having been sick or having been injured, manages to apply for a job, and then\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246d74f538b1f4fb2b792ea1daa86c8ab\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the member. [Interruption] No, I am on my feet. The interjections across the benches are unacceptable. I want to hear what the member is saying. If there are interjections they should be on what the speaker is saying, and not this other dialogue that is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe08954ae86a4415a70dfe28ee41974f\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, the poor young worker who drags himself out of bed, having been on a sickness benefit or an invalids benefit, has to accept a job at sub-minimum wages or he will be stood down, with nothing from Work and Income for 13 weeks. What is fair about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ECutting young people\u2019s pay is just the tip of the iceberg of this Government because, of course, we know that changes to the labour laws, including meal breaks and rest breaks, are on their way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bac6be4b9d940dfb5767409e3f0a45b\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: You bet they are. You bet they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a90e4a8426c4168a1b9b3378caf5ba7\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you bet they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf51f44037a248f9b0627ebd029ff833\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Then why\u2019d you put out that press release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e21cb1d0d944efbd7e62f2e9202909\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Because I was hoping the Minister of Labour would show some sense, unlike his predecessor, because that is a stupid bill. This is all going to hit Kiwi workers across the board, but this bill in particular is going to hit young workers. It is going to make it much more difficult for them to survive. It is not going to make it easier for them to get work. The Minister\u2019s own department could not verify that the aim of this bill, of cutting youth unemployment, would be delivered. So it is a bill that just goes back to the tradition of the National Party\u2014back to the 1990s. Let us cut people\u2019s pay. It does not work. It did not work then, and it will not work now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022 data-id=\u00224a3412bfcab04e7d8389d8c470b020e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a3412bfcab04e7d8389d8c470b020e7\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address what the Labour member Darien Fenton has raised. She has raised two very important issues. She raises the issue of so-called sub-minimum wages and she talks about hitting young workers. The ACT Party supports this Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, and supports this young Minister of Labour. It is an opportunity for young people to get their foot on the first rung of employment opportunity. We support the intention but the ACT Party is on record as saying we need to go further. Since Labour and the Greens abolished youth minimum wages in 2008 youth unemployment has reached crisis levels. This is the key point I want to put to the Labour Party Opposition today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EThe member talks about sub-minimum wages. I want to talk about the $4.50 an hour paid every fortnight electronically at midnight from Work and Income to the 40,000 young people between the ages of 15 and 19 who get the dole\u2014$4.50 an hour on the dole. This is an opportunity to pay young people a fair rate of pay for the dignity of a working opportunity. Statistics New Zealand put youth employment in December at 30.9 percent. That is the highest rate we have had in three decades. Over 40,000 young people who want to work cannot find a job and I rise in this Parliament today to represent them. It is worse amongst young M\u0101ori, it is worse amongst young Pacific, and it is worse for young Asian. Forty percent of M\u0101ori aged 15 to 19 are on the dole, 47 percent of Pacific youth are unemployed and on the dole, and 55 percent of Asian 15 to 19-year-olds are consigned to the dole\u201455 percent. So we are talking about 48 percent of Pacific, M\u0101ori, and Asian youth on the dole. Of course, it also has encompassed in that young European and others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EBut we cannot sit back as a Parliament, as a country, and pay so many people, 30 percent of our youth aged 15 to 19, $4.50 an hour to do nothing\u2014$4.50 an hour. I say to the Labour Party list member opposite who resumed her seat, Darien Fenton, what about talking about and thinking about the 40,000 young people aged 15 to 19 who desperately need the dignity of work and a job opportunity to get on with their lives? Too many of these young people are starting lives with poor education, no jobs, no hope, and few opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7ecf98da8c40db8f6ef52be64c3bf3\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor\u003C/span\u003E: Whose fault they\u2019re getting poor education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022983ba4bb586242449bdf266ae0a22772\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the yapping member opposite that I have been in business for 50 years this year. I have employed tens of thousands of young people in the restaurant chain that is 50 years old this year, Tony\u2019s at 27 Wellesley Street.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E In December 2007, before Labour and the Greens abolished youth minimum wages, M\u0101ori youth unemployment was 22 percent. M\u0101ori youth unemployment before Labour and the Greens abolished youth rates of pay was 22 percent. Today it is double that figure and the member who resumed her seat has the temerity to criticise the Minister of Labour for trying to do something about getting the dignity of work for so many people who feel helpless and hopeless without a job. Deliberately legislating to stop young people from making a successful transition from school to jobs is a violation of their right to make their own decisions. Deliberately doing that by legislation is a violation of young people\u2019s right to make decisions for themselves and have a working opportunity. The Labour Party\u2019s short-sighted policy has had a devastating effect on our young people\u2019s morale and sense of self-worth. Morale and self-worth\u2014any member in this House who has had a young boy or girl between 15 and 19 sitting at home, desperately wanting a job, and without the dignity of work knows exactly what I am talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EDo not be hypocritical, I say to members\u2014please do not be\u2014by suggesting that this is not going to work, because we pay $4.50 an hour to 40,000 young New Zealanders between 15 and 19 every second Wednesday night from Work and Income by way of the dole. We believe that 80 percent is still too high as a minimum rate. In the UK the rate for 16-year-olds is 60 percent. In Australia the rate for 16-year-olds is 48 percent\u2014much lower than what is proposed today. I would pay those 40,000 young people looking for work $25, $30, or $40 an hour if we thought we could afford it. The fact of the matter is the country cannot, business is struggling, working opportunities are not there, so what we are trying to get here is a measure of sensibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d040769899248cf9501b0ee1e669d2a\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Make the young people pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022261e693ddd4a43f08fbcf2505dae41dd\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: That member across there has witnessed a doubling since the Labour Party and Greens abolished minimum rates of pay. There are twice as many young M\u0101ori on the dole\u2014twice as many young M\u0101ori on the dole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a80fd7c4cca4d46a058568963249ce7\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225dd9b0320c7417b8d37f8c03e43f6f4\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a shame. These countries that I am talking about obviously understand that it is important for youth to get their feet on the employment ladder. We want to see every young man and woman with their feet on the employment ladder and with the dignity of training, of work, of opportunity, of earning a living, and of making a contribution. Members on the other side of the House have, as statistics have proven, wiped out so much of our youth. Not only is the proposed rate too high but the conditions of this bill are too strict. The 6-month limit is not long enough to gain work skills and experience. It is not long enough. As someone who has been in business employing people for 50 years, I say it should be 12 months or longer. Forcing people to be on a benefit for 6 months before they are eligible for a starting-out wage, again, is far too long. Why would this Parliament force young New Zealanders to stay on a benefit for 6 months before they are eligible for the starting-out wage to get some dignity in their lives? Why would it do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EACT strongly supports a return to the situation pre-2008, before we doubled youth unemployment for M\u0101ori, before we doubled youth unemployment for Pasifika, and before we doubled youth unemployment for Asian people. These people opposite, these members of Parliament opposite, have never employed anyone, have never had to pay a wage to anyone, and have probably never had the indignity of joblessness. I say to the yapping members opposite that they should think about the indignity of joblessness\u2014think about the indignity of joblessness. For once in their lives they should think about the 40,000 fifteen to 19-year-olds in this country who are crying out for an opportunity to work. They look to Labour and the Greens, and what Labour and the Greens have left us is a legacy of doubling unemployment for M\u0101ori youth, doubling unemployment for Pacific youth, and sending unemployment for Asian 15 to 19-year-olds to 55 percent, the highest in any OECD country. And now they do not want to give employers the opportunity to give them some training and some work. We believe it is important that youth have the opportunity to work, to learn, to gain skills, and to gain habits and experience that will set them up for their future careers and for a more prosperous future. Why would these people opposite vote against that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222cedeb2e1b2a482b9ce441320b285346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cedeb2e1b2a482b9ce441320b285346\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill. That last speaker, John Banks, was absolutely correct in one thing he said\u2014that this bill is an opportunity for employers. That is all it is about. I rise on a day when some in this country are celebrating the arrival of a new pope. Cardinal Jorge, from Buenos Aires\u2014Pope Francis I\u2014has committed himself to alleviating the burdens on the poor. So those of that faith now have a new champion on their side, and the Catholics in this House will know that they have as their religious leader someone who is committed to alleviating the burdens on the poor. This legislation is no way to go about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Labour, Simon Bridges, is new in that role. He is learning a lot about the labour market. He has been to the home of the high-skilled, high-wage economy in this country, and that is Taranaki. He had a look around at the oil and gas sector last week, and he came back brimming with ideas and realising that what is happening in Taranaki is unique to Taranaki. But here is the thing about the way the labour market operates. Passing laws does not create jobs. Passing laws does not make work. What does make work is economic activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224941cbcdec2a42249e407d43de0d482c\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! This can\u2019t be the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e4defb2cf248b1bd42522941f0c48e\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It is pretty simple economics, and even David Bennett from the Waikato understands it. In order for jobs to be generated there needs to be economic activity. People do not sit around saying: \u201CGee, I\u2019m not an employer today, but if I could get away with paying nothing or next to nothing, I will employ a whole bunch of people.\u201D What are they going to employ them for? People take on labour, people engage workers, when there is work to be done. That is the first part of the equation, Minister. There has to be work to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E The second part of the equation is that there has to be value that can be generated as a result of it. We can go back to the old surplus value theory of labour, which is that providing you take somebody on and the return on the value of that work can pay for the worker and provide the employer with something, then you pretty much have what it takes to create work. Creating an environment where you just reduce the price of labour is not about creating work. It is simply about opening exploitation. When the Hon John Banks said that this is an opportunity for employers, there is only one meaning you can attach to those words, and that is that this is an opportunity for employers to further drive down the cost of labour, jobs, and work that they already engage. It is not going to create a single extra job in this country. It will not help a single extra person. All it will do is mean that those people who are employed under it will get paid less than they would otherwise have been paid, and who knows about the quality and the training under it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe law is very clear, and the conditions for engagement under this legislation are simply any training. Well, I met an employer recently, and so did my colleague Darien Fenton, who lamented the fact that the minimum wage that is in place at the moment meant that it was getting harder and harder for his friend, who runs a business that requires a lot of envelope stuffing, to engage people. He wanted an even lower wage, so that young people could be, in his words, trained up to stuff envelopes and they would have work. Well, actually, I am not quite sure whether that is what this bill is about and what its objective is. That is not work that we want. The challenge for New Zealand and the challenge for this Government and any Government is to encourage and incentivise that sort of economic activity that is going to encourage or create those jobs that are high value, that are higher wage, not minimum wage jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe reality is that there are parts of this country now where we have a two-speed economy operating, where we do have jobs that are well paid, well remunerated. I am not talking about the chief executives of Government departments when they get well paid, and they get paid even more when they leave their job. I am talking about people who leave work in the morning, or might leave at the end of their shift, come home from doing an honest day\u2019s work, and get an honest day\u2019s pay to look after their family, have a few hobbies, and stuff. There are some people who live that sort of lifestyle and do very well. There are a growing number who have that sort of life\u2014a 40-hour-a-week job or longer\u2014and can still barely make ends meet because they are on the minimum wage. There is a growing number of sectors where that is happening. It is no longer just the service sector, either. It is in important industries of ours\u2014for example, forestry, where a growing number of the workforce are on the minimum wage. This bill will do nothing to help that. What it will do is give a signal to those employers that if they can dress up an induction to the workplace as training, they can get away with 6 months of paying an even lower wage than they have to pay as the minimum wage now. That is all it will do. It will cheapen labour, make it easier for the ruthless employers and the employers that we actually do not need more of, and make it even worse for those workers who are struggling to get work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is not going to help young people. The old canard is trotted out every now and again: \u201COh, but what about the 90-day trial?\u201D. The most dubious piece of labour market research we have seen in a generation from the NZIER, calling itself the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research, came out and said: \u201COh, it created 13,000 jobs.\u201D The research was done within months of the legislation coming into effect, and every other worthwhile and self-respecting\u2014actually, decent\u2014economist who ever looked at that piece of research said that it was a load of bunkum. It failed to take into account the fact that there were other measures in place to help young people. But it did not even take into account the displacement effect\u2014the fact that employers were getting rid of some workers and employing them under the 90-day law because they could get away with it, because it was low-skilled work and they could manage a high-rotation workforce, and they did it. There was no evidence that making things worse for younger people, whether it is in terms of their security of employment \u00E0 la the 90-day legislation, or lowering the minimum wage, is going to help young people into work. The labour market does not operate that way. Economics 101 does not operate that way. You do not have to be very smart to realise that simply lowering the price of labour does not create a single extra job. What creates jobs is economic activity, and that is what this Government has singly failed to do, to achieve, and to do anything about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo despite all the arguments that were trotted out by employers, by the less than half a dozen employer representatives who fronted up to the select committee to say that the current minimum wage is a barrier to work, that this will not create work, they knew, when pushed, that they could not sustain that argument. They did not believe in it\u2014they did not believe it. I think this Minister, when he is pushed, and when he looks into his heart, and when he looks to Pope Francis I, will know that this legislation will not achieve the objectives that he claims of it. That is why we will be opposing this legislation. There are fortunately other members in this House who know that cutting the minimum wage, reducing it even further, does not help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022838f53593f0b44d6b7d83998096c52b8\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: David Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5ad90bfc6994240a465448ce9ed6008\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: David Bennett, for example, said that when there was an attempt previously to reduce the minimum wage through legislation, we are, by doing so, denying young people their success by holding them at a lower rate than their ability shows as individuals. David Bennett was right. That was David Bennett, National MP for a Hamilton seat, either east or west\u2014but, anyway, one of the Hamilton seats. He knew then; he was right then. It will be interesting to see whether he takes a call today to talk on this bill, which he knows is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe are opposed to this legislation. It will do nothing for New Zealand. It will do even less for young people. What we need is a real plan that is going to create jobs and lift incomes in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u00224bff1a4eefb04f29b76694c7cfd25998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bff1a4eefb04f29b76694c7cfd25998\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Tisch. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. The Green Party opposes this bill, the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, in its entirety. It is ironic\u2014it is totally ironic\u2014that the second reading of this bill should come to this House 20 years and 1 day after the Rt Hon Don McKinnon, on behalf of the New Zealand Government, signed the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Yesterday, I would remind the House, this House unanimously supported this motion: \u201CThat this House notes that today is the 20th anniversary of New Zealand ratifying the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child,\u201D\u2014UNCROC\u2014\u201Cthat it is the most well-supported human rights treaty in history, that it committed this country to consider the best interests of the child in all activities and make children\u2019s rights known as a priority, and that the House recognises children as full citizens of our nation, deserving of our most ardent attention to make the world fit for them to inherit.\u201D In 1993 we committed to bringing our laws into line with this convention. That convention applies to all young people who are under the age of 18. So why are we today attempting to pass a law that allows for some of our young people\u2014those aged between 16 and 20, who may be on a benefit\u2014to be discriminated against in their pay rates? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note in this bill, right at the beginning, says: \u201CMinimum starting-out rates of wages are designed to support young people entering the workforce, including those who have been on a benefit, and young people who are undertaking industry training for their work. Starting-out wages provide an incentive for employers to take on young workers at a reduced rate of pay while foundational work skills, experience on the job, or training is gained.\u201D We do not believe that this bill will support young workers. What it is is a new take on the carrot-and-stick approach. The employer gets the carrot and the young worker gets the stick. Paying low wages is an incentive for employers to keep wages low. The only incentive that young workers new to the workforce will get from this law will be the incentive to join the 50,000 or so New Zealanders every year who leave this country for Australia for better-paid jobs. Certainly, in this bill I see no incentive for a young worker to get a job, especially when they are going to be paid poverty wages. But then this bill is more in line with the Government\u2019s approach to punish young people, especially young people who may be receiving State support. That includes the young mothers and other young beneficiaries, who now have less decision making around their own finances, and it includes university students, who are being increasingly shut out of allowances that would enable them to finish their studies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EIf we are looking at incentives in this bill, then we need to look at what this bill offers employers. I agree with the Council of Trade Unions, which said in its submission that this bill will incentivise poor employment practice: \u201CThere is a clear encouragement for some employers to sack young staff after 6 months\u2014and they can do so at 90 days without any justification\u2014in order to continue to get labour at a 20 percent lower cost.\u201D The Council of Trade Unions was one of 529 submitters on this bill. Of them, only nine submitters were in support. Surely that tells the Government something. Of those nine submitters in support, seven of them came from employer groups and industry organisations\u2014that is, parties with a vested interest in keeping wages low. Among the 520 submitters who opposed this bill were parents, unions, community groups, charitable organisations, NGOs, the Human Rights Commission, and hundreds and hundreds of young people, many of whom submitted in person. And, I might add, some of them were not treated with the respect that they deserved by the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. The chair of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4915e667a7e44659dbcdf91b2efcfe3\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022337a72e57bdc4c16a4d4e97a277df67c\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE\u003C/span\u003E: The select committee heard from economists. We had reports from economists. There was conflicting evidence from economists, and I was reminded while I was looking at the evidence and the different opinions from economists that economics is not a science. There were even two submissions from employer groups who did not think that this bill would help with the unemployment rate, either. We could be doing more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EAs for the young people we heard from, they were really worried about reducing the wages from one category of worker and displacing the work for others, for those in the next age category, the 20 to 24-year-olds. Those ones are at least protected at the moment by the minimum wage, although it is very paltry, I agree with Darien Fenton. Really, we did not hear any concrete evidence, or promises for that matter, from employer groups that this bill would increase jobs. We did not get that assurance. The way to get young people off benefits and into work is by creating jobs. Simply lowering the price of labour does not do it. Creating a low-wage economy does not alleviate poverty and it brings absolutely no new ideas into the mix. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EIt has been proven that the way to reduce the number of people on the benefit\u2014and that is whom this bill is targeting\u2014is to get them into jobs, and jobs where they have a decent job and can support themselves. In 1999 there were 160,000 unemployed people. By 2007 that figure was down to 17,000. Why? Because there were jobs. Forcing wages down under the guise of doing young people a favour by getting them into work where, frankly, they will be exploited does not help the economy as a whole. Doing something for the manufacturing industry in this country, where 40,000 jobs have been lost in 4 years, would help. The Government could assist by diverting some of its resources away from offshore interests that demand law changes in exchange for a few thousand short-term and low-paid jobs and into local industry that is struggling with the high exchange rate. The Government could also help by ensuring that local companies get Government contracts, because that creates local jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWe reject the notion that this bill is needed because young people are a risk to businesses. That is discriminatory. All bosses take a punt on any new worker. We do not need this bill. We have sufficient legislation in place to mitigate that risk. That is what the 90-day rule is all about. It enables employers to deal with substandard workers and it reduces their liabilities. For employers who are genuinely\u2014genuinely\u2014offering training to young workers, there is already the training rate, which gives an 80 percent pay rate to young workers in training. We could be doing more for our young people to get them into work and training. The Government could be following the lead of the Mayor of \u014Ctorohanga, Dale Williams, who has, with his entire town, created a wraparound service that mentors and supports young people into work. This model is also working in Buller, and it could work everywhere else too. I note that the speaker from ACT, the Hon John Banks, was the Mayor of Auckland City and was one of only two mayors in New Zealand during his term in office who declined to join the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs. That was a shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThis bill sends a really, really negative\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d57f85cf212140bc889979aae0130ac0\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Positive signal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022748dc8a845634be2990cd4489c2ee77a\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014really negative\u2014signal to young people that they are not valued, that the Government will not invest in them, and that the Government is willing for them to be exploited and discriminated against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00222d47a56992464090a23bd8c141938728\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d47a56992464090a23bd8c141938728\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to congratulate members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the way this bill, the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, went through the select committee process. I think it was very well done. I would like to pay special tribute to the fine young Minister, the Minister of Labour, who led this great debate today. He is doing an excellent job in his ministerial roles\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bbb9edc374a49ac974037ffdb5185ae\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Inspirational.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022902e28cda4604faa8455d909be17fa26\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and is inspirational to young people, as many people through this country know. This is another fine piece of work from that young Minister, who is doing so well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI want to take just a short call on this bill. It was an interesting speech that we just heard from Denise Roche of the Green Party. That was the economic rationale from the Green Party. It does not have any economic rationale; it just tells you a lot of weasel words. But we did get some economic rationale from the guru Russel Norman today. Russel Norman has given breaking news about the economic policy of the Green Party. It is no longer printing money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2bd22df3fed4e489d98570574dcee1f\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b1bd79ebcc487099a1671a271808be\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: At the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014no, no, no, it is not going to print money any more; it is going to do it electronically. The Green Party is going to make money electronically now, instead of printing money. You would think it is doing that for green purposes, to save trees. It is not. It is doing it so that it does not have to take the hassle of being asked how you print money and change the economy, how you print money and reduce the exchange rate, and how printing money, electronically now, actually means that you are going to provide jobs for young people. The economic rationale of the Green Party is rubbish. Everybody knows that. It is rubbish, and it will never work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ETo prove that, we had a speech from the Labour Party, from Andrew Little. Andrew Little gave a very good speech. He had one line in his speech that I think we should all take to heart: \u201CPassing laws does not make jobs. It needs economic activity.\u201D That is what Andrew Little said in this House 10 minutes ago. The leader of the Labour Party union movement came to this House and said: \u201CPassing laws does not make jobs.\u201D What does that do for the whole Labour Party, whose whole life is about trying to get in this place and pass more laws? That is Labour\u2019s answer to making jobs. It does not believe in people, it does not believe in the economy, and it certainly does not believe in our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Opposition is portraying this bill as anti young people. That is not the case. This is giving young people a chance. Young people need that chance. They need to get in the workforce, and this gives them that opportunity. In a perfect world we would want our young people to be getting an education. The days are gone when you could leave school, just walk into a job, and think that was going to be for life. The modern world will require those young people to get an education. Everybody in this House should be saying that and should be believing in that, because that is those young people\u2019s future. In some cases, some people will leave school and they will be looking to go into the workforce, when they probably should be going to get higher education. The main thing we can do is give those young people the confidence and the ability to get a job. This bill helps them to do that. It gives them the chance to get their foot in the door, to prove themselves, and to move their way up the economic scale. That is good for New Zealand\u2019s young people, it is good for this Parliament, and it is good for the future of this country. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00224192e2dad67c448bb5d41fe1f7fe0bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224192e2dad67c448bb5d41fe1f7fe0bd4\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to speak to the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First opposes this bill. We oppose it on the grounds that it is an attack against young, vulnerable workers who are just starting out on their working careers. Young workers who want to be independent and self-sufficient often move away from home, and they have very high ideals and hopes. But with this legislation keeping them right down there on the poverty line, they just cannot afford to have this hope or any future plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe at New Zealand First ask the National members where the demand is for this change. To date we have heard absolutely nothing from the other side that will help change our minds or ensure that we know why there is going to be this change. Who out there, apart from National and ACT, really wants to rob young workers of an extra 20 percent of their wages? The fact of the matter is that there is no real demand for this change. Youth rates were done away with in the 1990s, and, as we have heard, employers are not entirely ecstatic over this change either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWith this bill the Government is taking another step towards a low-wage economy\u2014something that we want to move away from. Hard-working Kiwis have faced numerous attacks from this Government. It has sold out workers to foreign corporations, it sells off the assets, it changes the labour laws to suit its ideology, and now it has mounted an attack on young working New Zealanders. It taxes all fringe benefits\u2014looking for money everywhere\u2014and now we have got young people. Is this truly a part of the Government\u2019s plan to catch up with Australia? This bill is creating a further disincentive for young workers. Is it the way to get ahead? No. Is it the way to bridge the gap between our two countries, and entice our young people to stay here and work? Definitely not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E Jobs are generated by economic activity, and the reality is that that is not happening here in New Zealand. The National Party and ACT like to talk about bludgers and laziness and people doing nothing. Mr Banks was talking about paying $4.50 an hour to people who are on the dole for doing nothing, but the bottom line is that he has created this situation of no employment and it needs to be sorted out, and pretty promptly, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThey like to talk about welfare dependence and people relying on the State. Our young workers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2fcb52a6e9d4f539716d4fb60767ea4\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Brendan Horan is not that bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217db448f94484ab2bbf3e09e5cb23c65\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART\u003C/span\u003E: We are not talking about Brendan Horan here. Young workers are not bludgers, and I would say that the Minister, the Hon Simon Bridges, would say that they are not bludgers. They are not out milking the system; they are industrious young Kiwis and they are trying to get ahead. They are young people trying to get a foothold in the working world, which is not easy in today\u2019s world of fewer and fewer permanent career jobs. Learning life\u2019s lessons and learning what money is all about and what it buys is what every young person wants to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWhat is this piece of legislation? A slap in the face for young workers. It is an affront to their dignity. Cheap labour is not the silver bullet that is desperately needed. It will not help young people to be independent and keep a job and get a job. We know in New Zealand First that this is going to do absolutely little to nothing to encourage economic growth, which is what we want, as well as the creation of more jobs. We are not alone with this particular viewpoint. The Salvation Army too rejected suggestions that this bill will support more young people into employment. So if it does not believe it, we definitely do not either. It also rejects the viewpoint that this bill will provide more incentives for employers to take on younger workers. On this occasion, we agree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIt is our belief, in New Zealand First and on this side of the House, I would say, that, irrespective of age, anyone who turns up and puts in the hard work deserves a decent wage. It is the Kiwi way. Here in New Zealand we were a country that was founded on egalitarian principles. From the very beginning, New Zealanders recognised talent. They recognised good ideas and hard work, irrespective of where it came from. In New Zealand First we believe in giving credit, too, where credit is due. We believe in rewarding the hard-working, the industrious, and the innovative, and we believe totally in encouraging New Zealanders into their first jobs. Where are the jobs? This bill is not creating them. They are getting harder and harder to find.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThroughout New Zealand the National Government has been out trying to woo mums and dads. It has been telling them that it understands how to sort out the Government\u2019s books, because, after all, it comes from a business background\u2014it understands business. But although it might understand business, this bill shows it does not understand people. It shows that National basically does not care about people\u2019s kids. It shows them that it is nasty and mean. National is not providing the brighter future that everybody wanted to believe was coming. We all started off very optimistic, looking for this brighter future, but it is not here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c26eddd9787b4049b1372f92e4a7d450\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor\u003C/span\u003E: Where is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241dc9a53dae64ceb801990f37bc33255\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART\u003C/span\u003E: Gone\u2014gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe reality is that mums and dads do not want to be paying their kids\u2014\u2014the 16, 17, and 18-year-olds\u2014extra money to top up their wages. They cannot afford to pay the extra money. People are poor out there. Groceries are going up, power is going up, petrol is on the rise all the time, and they want them to be independent and able to support themselves, and I know that Mr Macindoe agrees with me there totally. They want their kids to be getting after-school jobs. They want them to be having jobs in the weekend and in the holidays. It is what has always happened. We have always had weekend jobs and holiday jobs. They expect them to be learning how to pay their own way\u2014slowly but surely. In this way, this bill is merely an attack on young workers. It is also an attack on the entire family unit. The bill does nothing to instil young Kiwis with confidence for the future. What it does is denigrate them as having the status of second-class workers. What it does is play off 20 to 24-year-olds against 16 to 19-year-olds. What it does is get parents\u2014all those infamous \u201Cmum and dad\u201D Kiwis\u2014questioning the brighter future that was promised by the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is firmly opposed to this piece of legislation. It will not support young people entering the workforce in this way. It is an absolute affront to young, industrious New Zealanders. It is discriminatory and unfair. It runs contrary to the Kiwi notion of giving everyone a fair go and a fair day\u2019s pay for a fair day\u2019s work. We need a real plan to get the economy going again, and this is not that plan. On these grounds, we are proud to oppose this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00226cae894f936e495db70ac621b5ad7dab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cae894f936e495db70ac621b5ad7dab\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I was going to say what a pleasure it is to follow Barbara Stewart, as always, but I am finding that a little bit difficult because\u2014I am sure she did not mean her last remark when she said that New Zealand First will not support young people entering the workforce. Did you hear her say that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baeeec6730104cddacb1907a267e66d4\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: I did. I did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1c694828364aa393c684de8b5cbb93\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr King heard you say that. I am sure she did not mean that, but, in effect, that is what her speech said. She said throughout the speech: \u201CWe would prefer people to be staying on welfare, on the dole, sitting and waiting for a job.\u201D Young people love to work. That is what they want. But what did we hear? New Zealand First said: \u201CNo, we will not support this new opportunity that is being put forward for a brighter future by National. We will not make it easier for employers who are doing their level best to employ people, just to make it that skerrick easier for them. No, we will not support this.\u201D And I am astonished\u2014I am astonished that the Greens said it too. I would have thought they would be very pleased to be involved in this and give us a bit of backing. \u201CNo, it is preferable that young people stay out of work.\u201D\u2014that was the message we got. That is the message we got. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf75b7f56954ffd9363f131c1832f99\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: We want jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6bae916c34b418ca16b41bfbb808670\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Would you like some of my speaking time to correct your statement? I will sit down and let you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b8477b99da74009862a49f2dbe2f0cc\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: No, we just want jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7c2513a6d249f3a7f8804ef0b64b39\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: You do not want to do that. All right. Perhaps a future speaker from New Zealand First will withdraw the remark and correct it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI am rising to speak on the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill in the name of the Minister of Labour, the Hon Simon Bridges, who is providing such inspirational leadership on this issue. It is great to see. This bill seeks to deal with what is an assuredly important issue. It is an issue so important that Su\u2019a William Sio decided to bring it up during his speech on the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill\u2014a speech that should have been on ensuring the best practices of an industry that is vital to the safety of our homes. No, Su\u2019a William Sio decided to bring up the issue of employment and getting people into jobs. I thank him for the opportunity, because, you see, that is exactly what this bill is about. He asked what we are doing about jobs. Now we are able to respond to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe bill is about ensuring that starting-out workers can get their foot in the employment door. A low wage is surely better than no wage. It is, indeed, better than young people having to languish on welfare. I have not heard the phrase \u201Cdole-bludger\u201D from this side of the House. Have you heard that phrase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8f638fa15f547eb819053e203186f2b\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256aa46c38bb140c2a05793e518c2edb4\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Have you heard it from the other side of the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aa02132673d4c0d9b89a9b6cf3a347f\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e112ccff475a4d6a9f0913cf61f24564\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. That is what we heard this afternoon. We heard it from Barbara Stewart. So not only are young people dole-bludgers but they are not allowed to work, because New Zealand First is not prepared to see people on starting-out wages\u2014the incentive for employers to take a chance on a younger worker, and it incentivises these young people to seek out work or training or both. Dave Bennett made the very good point that you cannot be dependent just on muscle for job security now\u2014you really cannot\u2014you do need training. However, we do have this system coming forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about it at greater length, but I think we need to give the other side of the House the opportunity to correct its mistaken approach to this bill. Let us see whether it does not just swing around in support of it. I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022b399b5adc94e40ab9fb4e8344f0e2659\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b399b5adc94e40ab9fb4e8344f0e2659\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E We took the mickey out of the Hon Maurice Williamson earlier this afternoon for bringing the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Amendment Bill to the House. A number of us commented then that it was a curious use of the House\u2019s time to be dealing with the minutiae of plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers when there are so many pressing economic, social, and environmental problems facing the country. But, to be honest, compared with that bill, this bill, the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, is the work of an intellectual midget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226912e72f808e42b9b6bd363fec430e3d\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Pygmy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cde662d3904a483898f79079d5916b67\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Pygmy\u2014midget\u2014pygmy. Chris Auchinvole would have us believe that the choice facing this country is between no work and work on reduced wages. Is that really what John Key\u2019s brighter future has come to? This is the choice we face as a country: our young people either should be paid to stay at home all day or they should be prepared to take a cut in wages and be paid less than the next person for doing exactly the same work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThat is the kind of vision that Chris Auchinvole has for this country, and that is where John Key\u2019s brighter future has got to. It is depressing. It is depressing to be standing in this House on a Thursday afternoon, debating a bill brought to this House by a political party that is so bankrupt of ideas. National is so utterly lacking in any kind of creative thinking about this country\u2019s future, how we build prosperity, how we increase productivity, and how we unleash the potential of our young people that this is the best\u2014this is the best\u2014it can do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIf this is Simon Bridges\u2019 attempt at a career-advancing move, then I hope he has got some other ideas in his back pocket, because this bill is based on the flimsiest of logic, the flimsiest of policy. The idea that if you cut the wages down from $13.75 to $11 for 16, 17, 18, and 19-year-olds who have been on the dole for 6 months, somehow you will create new jobs is what this bill is based on. It is pretty simple for the folks at home who are listening to this. If they have just tuned in, that is really all they need to know. The National Party is cutting the take-home wages down to $11 an hour for young people between the ages of 16 and 19 who have been on the unemployment benefit for 6 months. That is National\u2019s solution to the unemployment crisis that is facing this country. What a depressing, depressing thing\u2014to create a financial incentive for employers to hire one group of workers over another. It will not create a single new job. It will simply displace employment from one group to another. This is the extent of the National Party\u2019s vision for tackling the jobs crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I find really dispiriting about this bill is that people in this country need hope. They need hope that there is a place for them and that there is a future for them and their families in this country. The fact that so many people are heading to the airport and heading off to Australia and further afield, looking for opportunity and looking for hope, is surely a wake-up call. One hundred and eighty thousand people have left this country under the National Party\u2019s policies of the last 4 years. It cannot find a stadium big enough to fit in the equivalent number of people to signify how many people have gone to Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EInterestingly, we do not hear much from John Key these days about how many New Zealanders are heading to Australia, but 5 years ago that was all he wanted to talk about. Now we see a bill that comes to this House to cut the wages of our young people. What will be the result? Surely they will save up their $11 an hour so that they can buy an airfare to get to Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt should not surprise us that the National Party\u2019s first response to any major problem is to cut wages. It is what the National Party has always done. If you go back through the history of this country to the predecessors of the National Party, you will see that their idea for a Depression-busting policy was to create work camps in the countryside, and they shipped unemployed men and women off to those camps to work at starvation wages. That was their idea of a policy to deal with the Depression.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c588eabdb44c2ebc868a94b2ac844c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Now they\u2019re paying fringe benefit tax on accommodation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331ca479edfe42818dab3f4dde972e2c\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right. As Mr Cunliffe says, now workers are paying fringe benefit tax on the accommodation\u2014exactly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt was the National Party that was responsible for the policies of the 1990s to smash the trade union movement of this country, to get rid of the minimum wage, and to drive down wages. And, my God, it succeeded, and we are dealing today with the legacy of those policies that made a low-wage economy. Yet when the election campaign came around in 2008, the National Party of the time, under John Key, campaigned on the idea of closing the wage and salary gap with Australia. Yet time after time after time National members do whatever they possibly can to drive down wages. We have seen the pathetic increases to the minimum wage that this Government has presided over. We have seen the 90-day bill, which surely has one objective in mind, and that is to create insecurity for New Zealand workers, to make them fear for their jobs, and, in so doing, to drive down the cost of labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis bill is another example in that great National Party tradition to lower the cost of wages, because National has only one tool in the tool box: \u201CWhatever the problem\u2014whatever the problem\u2014let\u2019s cut the cost of labour.\u201D That is all National members know how to do. What an irony that they campaigned so hard about closing the wage gap with Australia! We have been hearing day after day in the House that the wage and salary gap, under National\u2014the gap between New Zealand and Australia\u2014has actually increased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat we need is bold leadership in this country to tackle the jobs crisis, and I am going to tell you some of the policies that National would be contemplating if it had any kind of curiosity about the policies that would solve the jobs crisis. For example, it would be restoring the research and development tax credits so that New Zealand companies had the incentive to lift their game and invest in innovation and productivity through research and development. The members on that side of the House would be considering reform to monetary policy that would stop the endless round of squeezing the lifeblood out of our exporters every time the economy showed some kind of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EInstead of the Reserve Bank Governor having this single focus on controlling inflation, the National MPs would be considering a monetary policy that took into account economic growth, jobs, and exports. But, no, they will not consider that. They would be considering skills and apprenticeships that would invest in our young people\u2014not cutting their wages and taking away their employment rights, but actually investing in skills and apprenticeships. There is no reason in today\u2019s world that young people should only either be paid to stay at home or go to work and have their wages cut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe have seen an increase in the number of young people who are not in education, employment, or training: 30,000 under-20-year-olds are not in education, employment, or training, and that is 4,000 more than when this Government took office. If this Government was interested in a jobs policy, it would be far more wholehearted about tackling the procurement policy that sees jobs shipped offshore constantly and the gutting of New Zealand\u2019s high-value manufacturing industry. It would consider a capital gains tax that would tilt the playing field back in favour of the productive economy, away from wasteful investment in rental real estate and into businesses that will produce jobs and livelihoods for New Zealanders. But, no, National members are not interested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ENational members are not interested in industry policy that would look at how the State can actively partner with New Zealand firms and exporters to grow jobs and grow productivity in this country. Their idea of an industry policy is getting problem gamblers to fund Auckland\u2019s new convention centre. That is their idea. Selling out employment law to Hollywood corporations and taking away the work rights of New Zealand workers at the behest of Hollywood is this Government\u2019s idea of a jobs policy. It is not good enough, and New Zealanders demand something better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00221d868fea86194218ae9379b76d66bac4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d868fea86194218ae9379b76d66bac4\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E What an array of contradictions we have just heard there from Phil Twyford. We know that under this Government take-home wages are increasing. Regardless of the fact that it is by 25c, the minimum wage is going up. We protected jobs around The Hobbit and so forth\u2014you know, we reacted there\u2014but that is somehow a problem. One of my colleagues pointed out to me a bit earlier that this hands-on approach of the Labour Party is really around your throat and in your wallet. What is the solution? What is the solution for more jobs? A tax\u2014a tax. Let us have more taxes. Boy, what economic policy there!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022657a3cc2d70e43cbbd9dfc552a06944d\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: Around your throat and in your wallet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3e02ff592141e09b96a1b5d11e1e5f\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. It is a slap in the face and a kick in the guts to New Zealand. That is the Labour approach: hands-on Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, is a good opportunity, and I want to acknowledge the Minister of Labour, who is here in the House supporting this bill. This bill is really about opportunities and incentives to get young people into work. What we have heard from the other side can be best defined as utopianism, a world where everyone is perfect, everyone can be paid the same amount of money for whatever they do, and everything is perfect. Well, some of us live in the real world. Some of us do not believe in utopianism. We believe we have to do something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESomeone talked a little bit earlier about, oh my Lord, how dare we pay them a little bit less. The key comes down\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95ba145e0f34f58b864f3be66940900\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I bet you love Charles Dickens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227095ea2c8368411aa7242389ba35b316\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Micawber\u2019s quote does come well to mind again, if Labour wants to start talking about Dickens. Go and look up Mr Micawber. The key here is that we want the dignity of work, and a lot of people submitted that to us\u2014the dignity of work. Andrew Little tried to quote the pope. Well, maybe he should go and read Rerum Novarum some time. At the end of the day, the dignity of work comes first and foremost. This party, the National Party, is behind the dignity of work. We want our young people to get into jobs, and if part of that facilitation in the real world is giving them a slightly more minimum wage to start on, then we are behind that. I support the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cc92328ef284115bacbe14023873d1e\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002227a3e39317c54d97a53721e48ad000e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227a3e39317c54d97a53721e48ad000e0\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a split call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b117790e44a4e0d9d71e55f63ff01d8\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: It is indeed a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224992811e192a4b8d8ae9840c0867663e\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u002228e73ccca4e8495689548276f8983a1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228e73ccca4e8495689548276f8983a1f\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to say that I normally start off my speeches by saying it is a pleasure to rise and speak, but, quite frankly, I am getting tired of rising and speaking to these bills that have absolutely no vision for a better and brighter future for this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWhen Simon Bridges was promoted recently in Cabinet, I think the media thought: \u201CLook, here\u2019s a bright new guy, he might have some new ideas. He\u2019s fresh, he\u2019s got a bit of energy.\u201D Well, sadly, here he is bringing back the same old tired rubbish to this House that National has been trotting out for decade after decade after decade. There is no shiny, bushy, energetic new thinking from that side, just the tired old wage-cutting regime that National members have rolled out for decades now. So they have not learnt a thing. Once they used to be ambitious for New Zealand. Do people remember that? We have not heard it for a while, but when they were in Opposition, John Key claimed that he was ambitious for New Zealand. I notice that as soon as he got into Government he stopped saying that. Here is the reason why. They absolutely lack ambition for New Zealanders, and this bill, the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, proves exactly that point. It is not about creating jobs; it is all about lowering wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI listened to a very good speech from my colleague Andrew Little earlier where he outlined exactly why, of course, it does not create jobs. Work creates jobs, not lowering wages. Having work to do creates jobs. That is what employers employ people for. They are not benevolent societies and charitable organisations that employ people because they just want to help them out. They do it because there is work there to be done. The real tragedy of this piece of legislation is that, in fact, this will ensure that there is less work\u2014fewer jobs in our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWhen that Government lowers wages it will reduce the amount of spending power that New Zealanders have\u2014in this case, those aged 16 to 19 years of age. But if anyone listening to this debate thinks it stops here, think again. They are coming after you next. They are coming after other New Zealanders after they have lowered the wages of 16 to 19-year-olds, because this is the only thing a National Government knows how to do. The only answer it has to any economic circumstances, whether they be good, bad, or ugly, is to reduce wages. That has always been its only answer. When wages are reduced in New Zealand, that reduces spending in our economy. When spending reduces in our economy, guess what? More jobs go. Jobs are lost through ill thought through pieces of legislation like this. They certainly are not created. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022829fac5414404372b1433db8c4b1f201\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: This is real Labour Party 1990.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e707a312bd434982bcd9409201dffd9a\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: He is showing a bit of energy now, that Simon Bridges, but why did he not show a bit of energy when he was drafting this legislation? Why did he not stand up to his tired old party and tell them that this is the pathway to a downwards economic cycle, not an upwards economic cycle at all? All it does is introduce more exploitation and more discrimination into our workplaces, and that is something we definitely do not need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI would like to invite Simon Bridges to have a look at the coverage from Campbell Live the other night of the hundreds of people lining up for seven jobs. They were stores jobs, and not very highly paid ones. They were pretty ordinary stores jobs, but a job none the less. His piece of legislation is inviting that employer to actually exploit people, to actually say to most of the people in that queue: \u201CActually, don\u2019t even bother lining up, because I\u2019m not going to employ you. You are a bit dearer than the other people.\u201D That is not going to actually fix the deep problems that we are experiencing with the New Zealand economy. It is no wonder that the economy is going nowhere under this Government, that it is flatlining, because this piece of legislation is just another hopeless piece of legislation that does nothing to lift economic performance. In fact, it does quite the opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8823b681336423082cc8ef6dd596ea8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8823b681336423082cc8ef6dd596ea8\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Last night this House took a significant step towards ending discrimination and eliminating a serious inequality in our law. That, of course, was passing the second reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill. Many of those who supported that bill, including many Government members, talked about the message it would send to young people about their importance, their value, their human rights, and their mental and emotional well-being to remove that discrimination. It was a great moment in this House and it made me very proud to be a member of it. But in that context it is particularly distressing that the very next day, after sending such a positive and affirming message to young people about their value and their future, we are undermining that message with this discriminatory and damaging Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, which sends exactly the opposite message to young New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EWhat this bill says to young New Zealanders is that they are not worth as much as older New Zealanders, that their work and their labour, even if employed doing exactly the same job as an older counterpart, or managing them\u2014[Interruption]\u2014that is right, is not as valuable as that older person\u2019s labour and that their needs, their expenses, and their rent, food, and living costs are not as important as those of older workers\u2014that their rights are not as important as those of older workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EIt is no wonder that young people are disengaging in droves from politics and Parliament and voting when this House passes legislation like this that disempowers and discriminates against them en masse, just when we might have convinced some of them of our relevance, our value, and our commitment to them and their future with the marriage equality bill last night. If you looked around the gallery here last night it was young people whom you saw. Just at that point we slam them with this bill and undermine all of that good work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EThe discrimination inherent in this bill is not acceptable, in just the same way that it is no longer acceptable to pay women less than men for doing exactly the same job\u2014although arguably that does still take place in some cases\u2014and just as it is not acceptable to pay workers of one ethnicity less than workers of another ethnicity. When these things occur and they come to light we are rightly outraged, we prosecute offending employers, we shake our heads, we tut-tut, and we talk about discrimination. Yet here we have a Government that is prepared to introduce comparable discrimination against young people into our employment law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EOn the basis of human rights and discrimination alone this bill should be dead in the water but, as this Government has demonstrated with a number of other pieces of legislation\u2014like the current welfare changes, which impinge on the rights of women, young people, and children\u2014rights-based arguments do not have a lot of impact on this Government. So let us have a look at its own economic rationale for this bill and see how it stacks up. This Government says that this bill will support young people entering the workforce and encourage employers to take on young workers. What a joke! Combined with its other discriminatory policy against young workers of 90-day trial periods, this legislation means that at most young people can expect to be hired at below subsistence wages for 3 months and then flicked on in favour of another new cheap young worker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EI was not on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee but I have heard that it heard no evidence that introducing youth rates would decrease youth unemployment. In fact, there was conflicting evidence from Government departments and economists on exactly that point. Even two submissions from employers did not think that the bill would actually help with youth unemployment. What the bill will do is incentivise employers to keep wages low, keep New Zealand a low-wage economy, and continue to encourage the 50,000-plus New Zealanders every year who leave permanently for better wages and opportunities overseas. If this Government really cared about youth unemployment it could invest in skills training and apprenticeships more than it has. It could improve access to student support. It could support the manufacturing sector and it could look at what is working in places like \u014Ctorohanga with the mayors task force. But it has not done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EThis bill does not make economic sense, it will not help youth unemployment, it is discriminatory, and it sends a terrible message to young people about the value that this Parliament places on them. I am ashamed of this House for passing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc72e0cd46f5435aa51d552af1fa82db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc72e0cd46f5435aa51d552af1fa82db\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E My dad died when I was 6 years old. I was brought up by my mum, and she used to call me her right-hand man. The reason for that was that she got me to rake up the leaves and mow the lawns. I mowed the lawns with an old push mower, and I can remember to this day the joy I saw when I came downstairs and there was a new Briggs and Stratton 4-stroke Kingfisher mower, which I was able to use. I fired it up and mum came out in great concern because I was throwing lemons through the side to see them explode into a myriad pieces. I am telling you this story because that was my first entry into earning money\u2014earning money. I used to do my own lawns, then we would tie the mower to the back of the bike, we would ride around lower Westown in \u201CTaradise\u201D\u2014New Plymouth\u2014and I would sell my labour and mow old people\u2019s lawns. I learnt to realise that mum was right: money does not grow on trees. Money does not grow on trees, and I think that if she said that to me once, she probably said it to me 500 times. But I learnt the lesson. What I learnt also was the dignity of work\u2014that you get out of life what you put into it. If you want to make a metaphor, you can say that we got a foot on the pathway to personal responsibility. I got a chance to get the keys to the Zephyr, buy a surfboard, or, nowadays, get the keys to a Nissan Skyline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill, is about young people getting opportunity, young people getting skills, and young people getting the money to survive in a difficult labour market. The axing of the youth wage by Labour cost up to 9,000 jobs. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment suggests that the starting-out wage in the first 2 years could provide 2,000 jobs for 16 to 19-year-olds. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments recommended by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b3953072f01f4d8cb70355a18adb8ea8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f13f62574979496890fc9e0a0e9a2882\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Minimum Wage (Starting-out Wage) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9dfe2c7ad374654be58e11118472b89\u0022\u003EBuilding Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0fcacb3c7a740f48e7bd29b1c3064ff\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000488\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 28 February.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022851dea276dd546fc81b49cb98f4c71fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022851dea276dd546fc81b49cb98f4c71fb\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I support this Building Amendment Bill (No 4).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbf53deba8de4c5b873ff9b3c0d90755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbf53deba8de4c5b873ff9b3c0d90755\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that is one of the better contributions we have heard from Nicky Wagner recently. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to spend the dying moments of Thursday afternoon with the National backbenchers. We are coming to the end of what has been a fantastic week for the Opposition. They are reeling punch-drunk from the blows on that side of the House. They have wheeled out the junior Minister Simon Bridges to keep an eye on the backbenchers this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022409aa60cbad34fecab69a340e28f2929\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s on youth rates. He\u2019s on youth rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d6719d310ce4a7490801082da5ed6e8\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That is right: he is on youth rates. That is right\u2014he is. We are here to speak to the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). It is my pleasure to make a few comments about this bill. We have said many times that we are broadly supportive of the Building Act review process. It was begun under the last Labour Government in the wake of the leaky buildings crisis. There has been a fair measure of cross-party support for the Building Act review process as together we try to fine-tune and develop the Act to protect consumers more and to tackle some of the deep-seated problems in the building and construction industry that were behind the leaky buildings catastrophe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe have not supported all of the measures that this Government has taken. Indeed, the last couple of bills, including this Building Amendment Bill (No 4), Labour has not supported, because we feel that the Government has really fallen down on the job. In a nutshell we believe that this bill is part of a piecemeal and uncoordinated approach to the problem, and that is not worthy of support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EFor the folks at home who may be just tuning in, given that this is an interrupted debate, I want to just summarise briefly some of the key provisions of this bill. It is the second of two bills that are part of the Building Act review process. It attempts to introduce enhanced consumer protection measures, including mandatory written contracts for work valued over a particular amount, and mandatory disclosure of certain information by building contractors. It has a set of requirements around that including penalties for breaches of those provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESecondly, it clarifies exemptions from the building consent requirements in the Act by rewriting the whole schedule. It adds some new exemptions as well. So it is a bit of tidying-up work there. It adds a new power for territorial authorities to deal with buildings that are at risk because they are adjacent to dangerous buildings. That is particularly relevant, I think, in Christchurch as it deals with the post-earthquake recovery. The bill increases the maximum penalty for the offence of doing building work without a consent. It doubles it from $100,000 to $200,000. It has got a whole section on dams, and it introduces the concept of a classifiable dam and a referable dam. It basically applies a risk-based approach to the regulations around dams, which, I think, the Local Government and Environment Committee has been in agreement is a pretty sensible approach. It makes a number of other minor and technical amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to go back to our criticism, and why Labour is not supporting this bill. First, it has a very narrow focus on residential properties, and it fails to address the wider concerns that affect the whole of the construction industry. In the recent case dealing with Spencer on Byron, that hotel or apartment complex in Takapuna, basically the Supreme Court held that the council owed a duty of care for all buildings, irrespective of whether they were residential or not. I think that is a good pointer, or should have been, to the select committee that the focus on residential buildings is far too narrow here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe other thing that it does is replace the old code compliance certificate with a consent completion certificate, and what this does is attempt to reduce some of the burden, some of the liability, that councils face, which has left them so often as the last man standing, with the ratepayer being expected to pick up the tab for deficiencies in work that possibly, in many cases, should be the responsibility of builders or designers. We believe, as do a number of submitters\u2014in fact, the Home Owners and Buyers Association of New Zealand made this point very eloquently at the select committee\u2014that this is a step too far until some of the quality improvement and accountability measures come to maturity, particularly, for instance, the licensed building practitioners scheme. Until consumers can have more confidence that they are going to have accountability and high-quality work done, then actually removing some of the responsibility from local government is going to have the effect of reducing the protection for consumers. That is really the opposite of what this bill is supposed to be doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe two really big issues that, I think, have been hanging over the whole Building Act review process are a consideration of joint and several liability, which is the legal doctrine that we have in New Zealand, and there has been a lot of debate about whether we should shift to one of proportionate liability. This debate has been one of the big kind of ripples after the leaky buildings disaster. That issue was deemed to be in the too-hard basket by the Hon Maurice Williamson. It has been flicked off to the Law Commission, which is currently looking at whether or not New Zealand could shift to a system of proportionate liability. That would mean, for instance, that the different players responsible for, for example, a leaky home would be financially liable only proportionate to their share of responsibility for the work done. The other idea that has been proposed by many, many people is that of mandatory insurance\u2014mandatory warranties backed by insurance. That would be probably the single biggest thing that would clean up the industry and give consumers protection and accountability. That has also been put in the too-hard basket by this Government. So there is a lot of twiddling of the knobs with this bill and not much that addresses the real issues that are affecting the very low levels of productivity in our building and construction industry, and the great vulnerability that consumers have in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe one provision that we would support\u2014and we think it should probably be sliced off and dealt with separately as a bill in its own right\u2014is the provision dealing with dams. That is pretty straightforward, and we do not see why that should not go ahead. We just think, along with a lot of the submitters who came to the select committee, that this bill does an injustice to the Building Act review process. It is tinkering with a whole lot of small things, including the liability of local government. It is not likely to enhance protection for consumers, and it needs a rethink.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130314f7625dc4b7474d848f8924ee449058d4000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"