"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c52c202b0554a7ab053e9499d464322\u0022\u003EWednesday, 8 May 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022713c584777ed4ab8b503e68b7f2ed96c\u0022\u003EWednesday, 8 May 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b0f5d877a6740c2a4377bb58cecc65a\u0022\u003EMember Vacancy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e5676a2cbad4005a5851a51a28727f3\u0022\u003EMember Vacancy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00229f915309bada4ae28cc6b19130f29f59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f915309bada4ae28cc6b19130f29f59\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Honourable members, I wish to advise the House that following the death of the Hon Parekura Horomia I have given notice that the seat of Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti is vacant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274dffbdf3dc04df5994111df88b0928a\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022237cbe10cfd34896b113270cab85e8e8\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2e7a6d66e23410dbc9c03cc1004ced0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00227fa16b3eaa2b4310837f1940b6805857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fa16b3eaa2b4310837f1940b6805857\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This question was originally to the Prime Minister. I seek leave of the House to have it transferred back to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e7239902447486faf2c80decf4d57a8\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002264ac6e3f35d04e9f9f7a53ece8862c9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264ac6e3f35d04e9f9f7a53ece8862c9e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he can seek leave of the House to do anything. It is very easily resolved. Leave is sought to transfer the question. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9e30cc108ac4053bba7803126deff94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9e30cc108ac4053bba7803126deff94\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be8511a628ac48d3acd85187b1d551cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This is a point of order and it will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223947453c3d7c489c9577308f1ac72553\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN\u003C/span\u003E: It concerns the problem of how we are to ask questions of the Prime Minister, because if we ask a generic question, like Mr Shearer\u2019s question No. 2 today, then you have ruled that because it is a generic primary we cannot expect specific answers. But when we ask specific questions of the Prime Minister, he transfers them to other Ministers. How are we to hold the Prime Minister accountable on specific issues if he will not answer specific questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00225a799ca9f6e44f1aafccc66a396ddcd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a799ca9f6e44f1aafccc66a396ddcd2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member to refer to Speakers\u2019 rulings, particularly 151/1, 151/2, and others that clearly say it is the prerogative of the Government to determine who answers the oral question. Does the member wish to continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00227f8b46ae7eed423cbbcf59d302c62a23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f8b46ae7eed423cbbcf59d302c62a23\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My simple question seeking clarification is this: how on earth are we going to find out whether the Prime Minister agrees with Mr English when in fact the Minister of Energy and Resources is going to answer? The whole thing is impossible at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022947f3b3b4677492681b83089f693a62c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022947f3b3b4677492681b83089f693a62c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I have just alerted to Dr Russel Norman, it is the Government\u2019s prerogative\u2014and it has been long established for many years\u2014to determine whom it sees fit to answer the questions. There is the ability for the Speaker to decline a transfer in the event that I perceive that transfer to be something that would avoid the question being answered satisfactorily. I have had a look at this. I am quite determined that the Government has correctly transferred this question. If the member wishes to continue to ask it, he will do so now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002218291d6a316a44449d040fa8b1d839e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218291d6a316a44449d040fa8b1d839e9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There appears, therefore, to be an error in the wording of the question. The question was to the Prime Minister and asked whether he agreed. You are absolutely right that it can be transferred, and there is a lot of precedent for that, but what has happened in the recent past under your rulings and the rulings of the Speaker before has been that there has been an opportunity to reword the question. The question would then have been reworded, if that proper negotiation had occurred, as \u201CIs he aware whether the Prime Minister agrees?\u201D. The Rt Hon Winston Peters is absolutely right that the question is about the state of mind not of Mr Bridges but of the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00221295d9a166b44736b3b3d8cd7e3813c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221295d9a166b44736b3b3d8cd7e3813c6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And again I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 152/5 that there will be necessary textual changes to a question once it has been transferred. This question has been transferred and if the member wants to ask the question he will proceed to do so now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022bef8467879014a17b84d91c598da9e6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bef8467879014a17b84d91c598da9e6c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you therefore confirm that the Hon Bill English\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211504e8a1c0a4e1b972ee7ca6a5e5d8e\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Trevor! Sorry, Trevor. It\u2019s changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f58f7825899401181ce8206250eeab4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c93b09088b4c67be5754287a5a22c9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been changed. It\u2019s changed on the yellow sheet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b37b1fdf79140a5a9f3b7e2178b9b13\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I apologise, Mr Speaker. There appears to have been yet another change that has occurred here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fdec96928d549d687db06430be89964\u0022\u003EPower Prices\u2014Increases and Electricity Market\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00227c509960786744b8a54602b819d75f8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c509960786744b8a54602b819d75f8d\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Does he agree with the Minister of Finance that New Zealanders are not paying too much for electricity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022552903bb52954c0490366fcf39928a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022552903bb52954c0490366fcf39928a30\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do. I also agree with the Minister of Finance\u2019s recent comment that a lot of us do not like the power bills we get, but the one thing that will be worse and more wasteful will be politicians running the electricity system. That will look cheap for a while, and then you will find that the technology has not been upgraded, that the new generation that we need has not actually turned up, and then there will be a big spend by the Government to subsidise something and the prices will all go up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d79ad9aa464372a494e83ada435923\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: How much has the annual electricity bill of a typical Kiwi family increased by under his Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022004d690b87b848519d5ef7a033aaf852\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: By about half as much as it did under Labour and the Greens. It has gone up by about 4.5 percent, not 8 percent, under this Government. So, in fact, although we saw massive rises under Labour and the Greens, we have halved that steep rise under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef94dcded16446fb06d8876c290606b\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document prepared by the Parliamentary Library showing that electricity bills have risen by $372.80 per year under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426acb80e665485ea11691ffaf38abb6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that paper prepared by the Parliamentary Library. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227697a67a576a4e36a18b555064a22f63\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that electricity prices rose at six times the rate of inflation in the past year, has the National Government been effective at bringing power prices down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ced025bbee4d39a8abb6df67f640e8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because, as I have already said, we have halved the massive, steep increases we saw under Labour and the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e34e8256e84ec6a66c116ae1093ebc\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: What action is the Minister going to take for the people of Tauranga, as statistics produced by his own Government show their power prices are rising 15 percent faster than the national average rise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbed99dd357f48e89f16bcdd41b22694\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to continue to ensure, as Minister of Energy and Resources, that we have an increasingly competitive system. The member might like to know that in Tauranga the main retailer is TrustPower, where it provides a cheque back to consumers of $375 a year. That is $3 more than Russel Norman says the prices went up by last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846dd670097f4d0e8d4186995e4704e1\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that power bills for the average family did increase under his Government by $372 per year, what is more important to his Government: profits for electricity company owners, or power prices for Kiwi families and businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb08ce1348a24258b988d1e728f97f9a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Prices for Kiwi families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c5a2f4aa824bc2ae52496e1c6b1676\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister comfortable with the constant increase in power prices under his Government\u2019s electricity market settings, when there are better alternatives that would result in cheaper power for Kiwi households and businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e84cc60dbc74698b972e0162c22f918\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Because we are ensuring an increasingly competitive system. We came into Government in 2008. We had a comprehensive review of the system. We made a raft of changes, and, as the Electricity Authority said very recently, we have seen in the last year increased competitiveness in the retail market, increased activity on the futures market, and improved hydro management in response to a dry year. So we are doing the right things to make this an increasingly competitive market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296deab8d05e348a099fc9faf6e960d4c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister\u2019s actions have been so successful, why have prices increased at six times the rate of inflation over the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2dc3fcbc1c44bccb8d341aae90284e7\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me give the member an example of how successful they have been. Some 700,000 people have switched since we introduced What\u2019s My Number. In Auckland, you can go from the most expensive to the least expensive retailer at the moment and save $343; in Wellington, $418; in Christchurch, $618; and in the South Island, in Balclutha, $485.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b16fa633f44b43908b8dd19fec51ff\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Commerce Commission\u2019s independent Wolak report that electricity companies are overcharging by $700 million a year on average?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b83b5870b96c4925861ac1a2496f562c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that that was based on very old data, but, to the extent that the member asked the question, no, I do not agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022981423caccf94431bb10794ae9a85c0f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Why do you not agree?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a92c2aac3c41b9836a248735703f4b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is based on old figures. Mr Wolak based it on northern hemisphere examples rather than on what is happening in this country, and we are a world away and have a very different set of circumstances from the examples he used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a9960ef9c04a718e633d0a19c59697\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that the Minister prefers to listen to the advice from the electricity companies that they are not overcharging, rather than listening to the advice of the independent report from the Commerce Commission, which found that the electricity companies are overcharging by $700 million per year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022546518ecedca4474be5528c60cb0aa70\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I already answered that in my earlier\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac398c2a9d0471ab10a148176113ce1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! I want to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da620619d0dd40e78660c20f55e12475\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I already answered that question in my earlier answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f08278c54b6b498cafadfaf89be677d3\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was: why is he listening to the electricity companies, rather than the Wolak report, which was commissioned by the Commerce Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e167800e1a4e4b90614a4c2a3c51a5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the Minister answered that by saying that he had already answered that reasonably in the earlier question. That is quite satisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226100d2504885443ab0e4f0ac403bdc1c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: What assurance, if any, can he offer New Zealand families and businesses that before the 2014 election electricity prices will return to the levels that they were when he entered office\u2014when will they return to the original levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f8562ba9e0f492f895aea4da7eadeb5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I offer them my absolute assurance and conviction that our market is becoming increasingly competitive, and you see that in the very sharp deals that you can get all around New Zealand at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6065632042a4a15b3b238b0a0a9754f\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table domestic electricity prices as released by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d0ce5832094d48831d41603df77239\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if it is released by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, is it freely available to all members on its website? Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229783119bc8ef4791bddc9d1af505797f\u0022\u003EPower Prices\u2014Commentary and Prime Minister\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00222fb9d9caa5eb46049e7bf0295b976b6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fb9d9caa5eb46049e7bf0295b976b6a\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00229d7380a7d7cd4e57b3392145d1a5925a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d7380a7d7cd4e57b3392145d1a5925a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7745c4700d1447f9ea629e5c5ac66ce\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his commitment to Grey Power in 2009 that his electricity policies would \u201Chelp constrain electricity prices\u201D and \u201Csee fewer stories about electricity retailers putting up power prices ahead of inflation\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e18381e8b824ceea5ed1c2e71d7164d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ce501848be440cadb243c1d5906610\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: In light of his answer, does he think it is fair that New Zealand power prices rose more than five times faster than inflation in the last year; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cbbc9807baa48cd86e40101fbd891f0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, power prices are rising much more slowly under a National Government than under a Labour Government, but part of the cost increases was the increase in transmission, which is necessary to improve the national grid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d41fc32b6a94e6ebfbabf713e82b5de\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider that residential power prices in New Zealand are too high?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa62a885aeb494d806943750f575f3e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: They are somewhere in the middle of the pack, I think, when it comes to around the OECD. What I can say is that the changes that the National-led Government has made over the last 4\u00BD years are increasing the competitiveness of the market. That is helping to deal with the issues of the rampant price increases that we saw under Labour. But I would say that if I was to implement the sort of policy I saw announced by Labour and the Greens, what I can be sure of are a few things\u2014that the predictions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5bc554617c4833990bd113e5cfee20\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was adequately answered, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae3dcba21a44f0f8ad488652598b9c1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is happy with the answer, we will move to the next supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515838615ef5488d8c066592c7449179\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Consumer magazine that \u201CEffective regulation is needed to ensure consumers get a reasonable deal. We are yet to see it.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257b82823f3ad4c8dbe9cdcffdee777b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not agree with the last bit. I think we are seeing effective regulation. What I can say is that what we are not seeing are the 101,000 bogus signatures that were on a petition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022716d49e7581b452caf5db58facc6bbf5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! That is not necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517a267670e14707882b02cea706fddf\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with his energy Minister that the Bradford electricity reforms introduced 15 years ago \u201Cdid not have a chance to bed in\u201D; if so, how many more years will it take before these electricity reforms bed in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437876ff18dd4690a514ce5b6ece4095\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure which electricity Minister the member was referring to\u2014there has been a number over time. But if it was Mr Bridges, then absolutely, because he is the face of the future, my boy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc752279b414cb4a1acb411fb57cf76\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Minister of Finance, who said, in response to questions about electricity prices being too high: \u201Cif you look at those returns being generated particularly out of the electricity market, the Government has taken the view that the market is not as competitive as it should be.\u201D? That was this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c990cb1b07194b57979e31605de0831b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would need to see the full context of the speech and what happened, because the Opposition has a bit of a habit of cutting and pasting these things. But, yes, in principle, I find myself more often than not agreeing with the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dec3f07b1ea4507ab25d055e142c091\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have any policies that will guarantee power prices dropping in the next 18 months; if so, which ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db6b3e0aeab34e6098b04caf6c23fb90\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not think it is possible to guarantee that power prices will drop. I think we can certainly guarantee that we have a market that is more competitive than the one we inherited from Labour. We can also certainly guarantee that if Labour was to ever implement its policy along with the Greens, there would be a number of issues for New Zealand. One of them certainly would be that the ability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c1a48761edd45539606d9301da29637\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a very adequate answer, but he was talking about our policies. I was asking about his policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2da3e1985494141a3a8f5a488226616\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question has been adequately addressed. Are there any further supplementary questions? Otherwise I move to question No. 3, the Honourable\u2014[Interruption] Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022727c6edfea2449ae9e455383878dc593\u0022\u003EGovernment Financial Position\u2014Crown Accounts for 9 Months Ended 31 March 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdebd90bad354467a55a94e4b08a1859\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdebd90bad354467a55a94e4b08a1859\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on the Government\u2019s finances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022093d6f0aa36b4b518521ef412c35724c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022093d6f0aa36b4b518521ef412c35724c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Treasury has this week issued Crown accounts for the 9 months to 31 March. The operating deficit before gains and losses for this period was $5 billion, which is $273 million smaller than the forecast back in December. Net core Crown debt is $1.4 billion lower than the forecast, at 27.9 percent of GDP. This illustrates that the favourable patterns of good control of expenditure and gradually increasing revenue are bedding in. The Budget next week will confirm the Government remains on track to surplus in 2014-15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f714169c18a4b2c833de26ebb7475f2\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: What are the main reasons for Crown accounts being better than expected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdbf299e1383445fb6378e393a60d9e3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: They are slightly better than expected, and the reason is improved revenues and ongoing careful management of expenditure across the public sector. Core Crown tax revenue was $535 million higher than forecast, due to PAYE on wages and salaries being $187 million above forecast and tax on other income of individuals around $406 million above forecast. Core Crown expenses were slightly below forecast. This is encouraging and broadly consistent with the quarterly employment survey released yesterday, which showed hourly earnings are up 2.1 percent in the year to March and employment growth of 1.8 percent in the year to March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228349b3c8e74146a4af1ba959df45118e\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government\u2019s financial performance say about the track to surplus, and how will this deliver benefits to New Zealand households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd6dc94197c4203830b80ad7e5d0c59\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: These numbers released the other day indicate that the Government is on track to surplus, consistent with Budgets over the last couple of years. By comparison, the 2009 Budget indicated net Government debt would exceed 60 percent of GDP or more than twice current levels by the early 2020s if we have maintained the spending track at that time. The benefits to households come both in the improvement in public services, despite the fact that money has been tight, and, secondly, in lower interest rates for longer because the Government is spending carefully. New Zealand households are enjoying the lowest interest rates since 1964, and the Government, of course, will do what it can to ensure that that situation continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022febca200e5f44ac6ad54cc1ed69f5190\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Reserve Bank Governor\u2019s warning about rampant house price inflation and the effects of increased lending on the exchange rate, and an already enormous current account deficit, will he acknowledge, as the Governor of the Reserve Bank did again today, that a capital gains tax would help significantly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c0b8bab49949e09c0081eba77b8bdc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, because that member\u2019s version of a capital gains tax would not cover most housing. I do not know why Labour persists in the belief that a capital gains tax that exempts housing is somehow going to make a difference to housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d04c94b09741d2acd32ab464f8e372\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a fact that the overseas aid announced in Budget 2012 has been massively underspent by $94 million, and how many other Budget 2012 items have been deliberately manipulated to get an artificial result of the type he is boasting today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab4a7e3194a459596b670fce4f5f0e8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There is no deliberate manipulation, but I would imagine that in the overseas aid budget, like many others across the public sector, Ministers and officials have become much more aware of the need to focus their expenditure on what is effective, rather than just on spending more and more money. I would congratulate the Minister of Foreign Affairs on showing the same tendencies as are benefiting the whole public sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e225856d2c4a4b9b802ba6ae5ae08d95\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If that is the case, what was the background behind the 2012 announcement that had the expenditure at $94 million more than is currently being spent, or was there no work done at all about that budget, and, if that is the case, why did he announce it in 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeca4d9f93d742408b5f112e542a039a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot answer the member\u2019s question in detail. What I can say is that there has been discussion in past Budgets about how to ensure that the reasonably significant increase in foreign aid would sit with guaranteeing effective expenditure. If the member wants more detailed answers, then he is free to put in a written question or seek the answers through a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b7b0e75efa54a34beb96b87fcf59242\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen about changing data in relation to key economic policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4123d4b76af40abb17d5e6f11b40112\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen one report regarding the Government\u2019s share offer programme. It confirms earlier suggestions by the Opposition that public opposition to this policy was overwhelming. In fact, the referendum, which they said had over 400,000 signatures, turned out to have 100,000 signatures on it that were not real\u2014an error rate of 25 percent, which, even for Labour and the Greens, is pretty high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267690842ab624b3b9d5616bf234fa264\u0022\u003EPower Prices\u2014Increases and Electricity Market\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227cc65cfcc9b847a7a5dad60332e118e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cc65cfcc9b847a7a5dad60332e118e8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement regarding the electricity market that: \u201CPublic monopolies will always rip off the consumer\u201D; if so, by how much have residential power prices excluding lines charges gone up in nominal terms since November 2008 according to the Ministry of Economic Development\u2019s Domestic Electricity Prices Survey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f132256d60d34c808a24d33d36b5ae2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f132256d60d34c808a24d33d36b5ae2e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, I stand by my full statement, which was this: \u201CIt ignores risk. Under the previous Government they did have a pretty risk-free environment. They pumped up prices 72 percent in seven or eight years. We are making it a riskier environment by adjusting the market to make it more competitive and that is going to mean it is hard to make those sorts of excessive returns. Public monopolies will always rip off the consumer.\u201D That is why we reject a scheme that would establish a public monopoly in electricity generation, as proposed by the member asking the question. Monopolies simply cannot and do not do better than competition. In answer to the second part of the question, according to the measure the member proposes, since this Government has been in power, prices have risen by that measure by 18 percent. Under the equivalent measure, under his stewardship they rose by 100 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6b2b0ea95d4293a8fb74e013ff22e5\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why have residential power prices not dropped in the last few years but instead risen, given that demand has slumped due to the recession, and carbon prices have crashed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e35e355314a46cabe8ae1d4044d19cd\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member is now mixing up measures. Of course, as he knows, one of the significant drivers of residential prices in recent years has been the line charges and transmission charges. He should be agreeing with that, because his Government started out on the process of the large-scale investment in upgrading our transmission capacity. Someone has to pay for that in the end, and that has flowed through into power prices. At the same time, there is downward pressure from slackening of demand and a collapse in carbon prices. But I have to say that under that member\u2019s emissions trading system policy, households would pay an extra $500 per year, which is well in excess of the cut that he is promising them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258625a864e1849fcb3850f7c6b342635\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why, despite household demand falling, is New Zealand one of just two OECD countries in the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment data that have seen power prices increase since the recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d9a7ff7b1e6436fba104a383fa43f5b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As I have pointed out to the member before, the investment of something like $3 billion or more in the transmission grid was required in order to provide for reliable supply, and the cost of that has been flowing through to consumers. But the idea that a Government department is going to make better decisions is one that very few New Zealanders find credible. In fact, I think it is only the Opposition that believes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e139e80ca47481fb21d133e2dbe2202\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister believe that hydro generators should keep the windfall profits they make from public water under the current pricing system, rather than passing them through to Kiwi families and businesses, as Labour is proposing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1b6c97b2d73491ca2436075c9bc1483\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Because we do not agree with those assertions. In fact, if the member looks at one measure of the profitability of hydro companies\u2014that is, the share prices of TrustPower and Contact\u2014they have dropped over the last 5 years. In the case of both companies, their share prices are lower than 5 years ago, which proves exactly the opposite of the point the member is trying to make. There are not super profits, and the decline in demand is reducing the value of those companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b6fa1211e24472884030e7371eb8ca5\u0022\u003EScience and Research Funding\u2014 Budget 2013 National Science Challenges Initiative\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd58041edb44da0b9ad21a5ad06ef7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd58041edb44da0b9ad21a5ad06ef7b\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Science and Innovation: What initiatives has the Government announced to invest more in science?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022992f063d12ad4ad799f7180aa8d87f84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022992f063d12ad4ad799f7180aa8d87f84\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Science and Innovation):\u003C/span\u003E On Wednesday last week the Prime Minister and I announced 10 National Science Challenges, along with an additional $73.5 million over 4 years from Budget 2013 to help fund those challenges. This is on top of the $60 million allocated as part of Budget 2012. The National Science Challenges will take some of the biggest science-based issues and opportunities facing New Zealand and tackle them by drawing together scientists from across institutions and disciplines. Targeting these specific challenges will help the country get greater value from the $1.3 billion investment this Government makes in science and innovation annually. If these challenges are achieved, they will create a major and enduring benefit to New Zealand. The funding for National Science Challenges forms part of a wider internationally focused growth package to be announced in next week\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b29a1f6d025410d8916942413edf8d4\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: What are the subject areas of the National Science Challenges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d378331619ff4301b49b5b1a04d4a9bd\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has identified 10 challenges, which cover research to protect the environment, improve the health of New Zealanders, and advance our economic growth. They are ageing well, a better start, healthier lives, high-value nutrition, New Zealand\u2019s biological heritage, our land and water, life in a changing ocean, the deep south, science for technological innovation, and resilience to nature\u2019s challenges\u2014and do they not hate it? The challenges were chosen by a peak panel chaired by the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Advisor from submissions by scientists, institutions, and the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782e2bfa7f5a4d37b7a189566121dc94\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: How does the funding of National Science Challenges lift the Government\u2019s investment in science and innovation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e4f0cac1cc049268f6983ef53c8fbcc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: National Science Challenges contribute to the very significant increases in funding for science and innovation that this Government has made since it has come into Government, from around $1 billion in 2009-10 to just over $1.26 billion now, despite the global financial crisis. That is under the leadership, of course, of the Prime Minister, who is very passionate about the investment in science. It includes programmes such as the Primary Growth Partnership, which we have developed; increases in the Marsden Fund, which were the first for many years; increases in the Performance-based Research Fund, similarly; research and development co-funding for businesses, which were established and grown under this Government; and funding for the development of Callaghan Innovation. Despite the global financial crisis, the Government has invested significantly more in science and innovation, and members can be confident that I am continuing to lobby the Minister of Finance for more money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290aa7ce459024923ac3ef331cb3797c7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u002287167e2f8a674d29b9aa86494bbdf557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287167e2f8a674d29b9aa86494bbdf557\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E I note, firstly, that the Associate Minister of Education is not present and the Minister of Education is present, and that there will be some discrepancies in the question as to the \u201Che\u201D and the \u201Cshe\u201D. I seek leave of the House to ask the question, taking into account those small discrepancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002209b5c4e4e1a24ddf8be33674a3a7423f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209b5c4e4e1a24ddf8be33674a3a7423f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is certainly in order, but just bear in mind that you are still now addressing the question, technically, to the Associate Minister of Education. The member can proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002286232cea5268414992102d30f534f297\u0022\u003ESchools, Partnership\u2014Outcomes for M\u0101ori Students and Staffing Issues\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00227cb1a14ad04b4d809a83f1ba08fdc3b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cb1a14ad04b4d809a83f1ba08fdc3b4\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: Does he agree with Natasha Sadler from Ng\u0101ti Wai that the wh\u0101nau-engagement aspect of Partnership Schools Kura Hourua provides an opportunity for improved educational outcomes for M\u0101ori children; if so, has he heard this view from other M\u0101ori organisations about this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u00224f21775040b54f3e836ac6d1ddd9d286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f21775040b54f3e836ac6d1ddd9d286\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister of Education: Yes, I do agree with Ms Sadler, and I have heard this view from numerous other M\u0101ori organisations. For example, Te Maru o Ng\u0101 Kura \u0101-Iwi o Aotearoa submitted to the Education and Science Committee that \u201CKura Hourua \u2026 have the ultimate opportunity to create a model of excellence for those groups of learners the system has routinely failed and neglected.\u201D, and \u201CM\u0101ori organisations will come in in big numbers, as will Pasifika. And the reason is simple: they want to be architects of their own futures and destinies.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022660c21966a8941eaaec2ce80661aa28b\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister please provide some feedback that he has received from M\u0101ori submitters about the opportunities that partnership schools kura hourua offer for M\u0101ori students, over and above what she has mentioned already? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8cc844e08924903aec468ddd8757dfc\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: There was significant feedback during the select committee process, but also separately, about the opportunities to have flexible hours, to have flexible programmes, and to be able to use teachers who were not registered with teachers\u2019 qualifications but who, through their reo and tikanga, have in the past added and will continue to add value to the educational opportunities of M\u0101ori students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225532e41feab940719ef92e1ff6fd98e3\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What procedures will kura hourua partnership schools be expected to follow if a teacher is suspected of possible serious misconduct that has occurred either prior to or during their current course of employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b69371bc38b149d795776d954aa55e63\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: As is the case with every other school in New Zealand, sponsors will be responsible for providing a safe environment for pupils and staff. For any employees, sponsors will be responsible for investigating and addressing suspected misconduct in accordance with the relevant employment health and safety legislation. If suspended misconduct relates to registered teachers, then sponsors will also be required to follow the procedures in the Education Act 1989 relating to referral to the Teachers Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0b6096b041455bb741ec7bdac50a04\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not want to interrupt the exchange, so I waited until the end, but it would be useful if the Minister who was answering the questions could clarify which Associate Ministers she was answering on behalf of, because there are in fact three Associate Ministers of Education. She could have been answering on behalf of Dr Pita Sharples or John Banks, and it would be useful for the House to know exactly whom she is answering on behalf of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520b369ddda549fca5404fb37e1fdfe2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is over to the Minister. [Interruption] Order! It is over to the Minister to clarify. In my mind it was fairly clear that she was responding to that question on behalf of the Hon John Banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299e26a0311f34c7ab75b2e18f864257a\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety, Workplace\u2014Task Force Report and Employment Conditions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0363cac47954988a7c95f6858f690c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0363cac47954988a7c95f6858f690c7\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Does he agree with the statement from the Report of the Independent Taskforce on Workplace Health and Safety established by his Government in June 2012 that \u201Cthe fact is that a lot of bad things happen to people at work in New Zealand\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00222cf79a2c40ee4bd398300f3730bfdd28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cf79a2c40ee4bd398300f3730bfdd28\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, absolutely. Can I take this opportunity in the House to thank the task force for its thorough and comprehensive work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d84e1dbf614d1b9d1317ecab8249bc\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept the task force\u2019s statement that a cause of our broken health and safety system is labour market liberalisation; if so, how will the Employment Relations Amendment Bill and more liberalisation of workplace rights reduce the death and injury toll in our workplaces?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c764ba8d8f8845f689daab7e45801b00\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I think what the task force was referring to was the failure by successive Governments to implement the Robens approach fully and to see that organisationally bedded in. But unlike, perhaps, the member opposite, I think we can hold two thoughts simultaneously in our minds and both ensure flexible labour markets and be pro-jobs whilst also having more stringent health and safety standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697fdab61fac4a369e038988ca035233\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: How will cuts to meals and rest breaks in his Employment Relations Amendment Bill help improve workplace health and safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f7999a785246cea45c1c97ec40b7c1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: It will ensure in certain instances people do not go off the job and ensure that there are actually very unsafe instances. But the fact of the matter is that although the member may not like it, the vast majority of New Zealanders and employers will not notice anything. It is simply about not being overly prescriptive and having, I think, some sensible, common-sense flexibility in the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273be9c4fa71c48d8aa61e3e2a3f84c01\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: If the original reason for the cuts to meals and rest breaks legislation was breaks for air traffic controllers, which have long since been resolved through negotiation, why does he think these changes are still needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c531b9abf534643ade5a27aedf7a039\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: As the member well knows, these issues come and go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5668d631c324e2f8ab665a745048e27\u0022\u003EHospital Emergency Departments\u2014Waiting Times and Hospital Readmissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5526827ebb9407687c7fee61f5b6af9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5526827ebb9407687c7fee61f5b6af9\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What is the average waiting time in hospital accident and emergency departments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226fd66e45501e40f7ae0c1911115baa2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fd66e45501e40f7ae0c1911115baa2a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the Ministry of Health does not collect a national figure for the average time waiting to be seen, but the latest results of the emergency department health target is that 93 percent of patients were treated, admitted, and discharged from an emergency department within 6 hours. I did do a ring-around this morning, and can advise a couple of hospital average lengths of stay in emergency departments\u2014that is, the average time a patient spends in the emergency department, including getting their treatment. At the North Shore Hospital the average time a patient spends in its emergency department has decreased by nearly 4 hours since 2008, from 7\u00BD hours to 3\u00BD hours. I am told that the average length of stay including treatment at the Whakat\u0101ne Hospital emergency department is just over 2 hours, and at the Christchurch Hospital it is 2\u00BE hours. I do have to say to the member there will occasionally be times when patients experience a longer-than-anticipated wait in an emergency department, which may be the result of a combination of factors, such as the seasonal flu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3411006a804360832e116aa5fc2b0f\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister have to say to 82-year-old Mr John Francis Cornell who, after being taken by St John Ambulance to Palmerston North Hospital, waited for more than 9 hours without being seen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cffa68c1149440b98865bb52b2acb21e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to bring that case to my attention and I will look into it. I have to say that 9 hours is way outside the 6-hours expectation that one would really expect in an emergency department. I have to say that we will look into that because that is an unacceptable performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221edb8771a6aa45a8ae4a253eb8b7a9f7\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Would he personally expect to be seen by a doctor within 9 hours of waiting at a hospital if he was suffering bleeding from the bladder and he has said that this is unacceptable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7cd36d8b8546d898c091a7df3e50ae\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is completely unacceptable, and, yes, I would expect to be seen. That is the reason why the Government has instituted the target requirement that patients be treated and seen within the emergency department within 6 hours at 95 percent. I would say to the member that if she brings that case to me, I will check the circumstances and will make sure that what she has been advised is correct, and we will make sure that that sort of case is brought to the attention of the district health board. It is completely unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022358a9ec3e2c647d3a11c2e0e7c91822f\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Will he acknowledge that the Government\u2019s initiative to provide \u201CBetter, sooner, more convenient care\u201D is actually poorer, later, and much less convenient?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d338e98d0f04b83a53cc8737304be8c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: No. As that member well knows, we have massively improved the level of service that New Zealanders are getting in emergency departments and in their hospitals. That member will recall that it was only 5 years or so ago that old people lay on hospital trolleys in corridors at the North Shore Hospital under bright fluorescent lights for more than 3 days on end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ac5cd0cebfd4c0bb721ca373b7bd36e\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Mike Ardagh, the designated emergency department health target champion, who said recently that there is no standard measure for readmission into hospital after discharge from the emergency department within 6 hours and there ought to be; if so, is he going to do something about that measure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de8bb3b21aa47d89b29bf4bb1b1ef64\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: If that was the circumstance now, it was certainly the circumstance when that member was Minister of Health for 6 years. What I can tell the member is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1653bd349ea4983af10139e41e8b612\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a straight question. It is nothing to do with what happened when Labour was in Government. Either he has an answer for it or he does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455c3e6cc3fb4d6a97cff198b01f9ac3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Does the Minister require the question to be repeated? Would the Minister please answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214035763f6d64c7fb0d9ca7f694e2fd8\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Hospital readmission rates are measured generally across the sector. What I can assure the member, as I am sure she was told by Professor Ardagh, is that we are working with clinicians in developing a suite of quality measures to indicate the level of performance within hospital emergency departments. Things are certainly improved from what they were when that member was Minister of Health and people waited for days on end in hospital emergency departments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229105bd28bf454bdba09bca265420909d\u0022\u003EBudget 2013\u2014Dementia Care\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002268d81bf141c74986bd7955f74b2d13d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268d81bf141c74986bd7955f74b2d13d1\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What reports has he received regarding improved services for dementia patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58ee2720ebc4f018b3a875b39898841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58ee2720ebc4f018b3a875b39898841\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand faces a rising tide of dementia as people live longer. Whether it is a family member, a friend, or even personally, dementia will touch all of our families. I have seen many positive responses to the Government\u2019s recent announcement of extra dementia services, and this is the third year in a row that this Government has provided extra funding for dementia. This means that over the next 4 years the Government will be investing over $100 million more into dementia services\u2014almost certainly the largest increase in funding for dementia care in our nation\u2019s history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274422fbbe838468e99db41b42fa22173\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the specific dementia services that this significant extra dementia funding supports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd0730e608e147cbb0af05e44c4c585f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: There will be a $12 million increase in funding for dementia bed subsidies over the next 4 years. This is important because it encourages further investment in dementia beds, remembering that it is projected that the number of New Zealanders with dementia will treble over the next 40 years. There is going to be another $2 million invested to support dementia awareness programmes and to support clinical teams in early detection of dementia, and a further $1.2 million over 3 years will be invested in dementia-related training for health care workers. Despite very tight financial times, our Government continues to make health investment a top priority, including early detection and support for serious long-term conditions like dementia, which are important to New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cab6b01bc7b4e769cdf01b4a018769c\u0022\u003EAfghanistan\u2014Crib 19 Deployment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002206af2d7912db41a4ac4e29c228946585\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206af2d7912db41a4ac4e29c228946585\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Does he agree with reported statements that New Zealand Defence Force personnel in Crib 19 were sent to Afghanistan without full pre-deployment training, given that their commanding officer believed they were not adequately prepared but felt he had no choice but to deploy them anyway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a1dda07de54417d9822ed2dd0dfb431\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I will be answering this question on behalf of the Minister of Defence, but I would point out that there are aspects of this question that could refer to a suppressed coroner\u2019s report, which we cannot refer to in this House. In recent days Mr Goff has either deliberately released some of that material or inadvertently done so. I do not think we should exacerbate the act by speaking of it further in this House. What I will do is attempt to answer his question from general information that I have been able to pick up today from the Ministry of Defence in order to answer this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a92235fc8f1e4da48737578959cd8d05\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the responsibility for the content of the answer is the responsibility of the Minister, and he can certainly say that it is not in the public interest due to a suppression order if he so chooses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002286bf4261980249a4be9bc81d0b33b6f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286bf4261980249a4be9bc81d0b33b6f9\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Defence: The commanding officer made no such comments. Mr Goff is relying on the comments of a warrant officer who was one of more than 16 instructors who prepared Crib 19 at the collective training centre. The commanding officer of Crib 19 was confident that they were ready for deployment into the theatre, where further in-location specific training took place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72088054b114d43b34019ae15ade9e0\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Was it correct that pre-deployment training was reduced from 5 weeks to 3 weeks because of Rugby World Cup commitments, which meant that training outcomes were not achieved, and that it was reported to the New Zealand Defence Force that this introduced \u201Cconsiderable risk\u201D to that deployment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b793f8c36d94e7394713f8b8c7e1475\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The commanding officer was satisfied that they were suitably trained to be deployed into the theatre. Further training was given to Crib 19 in theatre. The situation is that the commanding officer of the outgoing unit has to be satisfied that the incoming unit is operationally capable, just as the commander of the incoming unit has to be similarly in a position to assert capability. In addition, the combat training trainer who went to Afghanistan to complete that in-location specific training required for troops in Afghanistan was satisfied that they were competent. The line that Mr Goff is taking is completely unreasonable and terribly disrespectful to those troops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f23361e8e34959924555657f7a241a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will recall\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5d7e97c23ee4df98dc74e15fb997ac5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e4cef49513d42f1ba0b75521a314610\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I am raising a point of order and the Minister I am questioning is speaking during it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e91b281fccf248a594c6c2d99511c454\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, shut up your own members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f5cedd9f7c45e1ab53347d73a5a518\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and he is still doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022115f39d99ec74d3ea370f1d653a6bee5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Silence will be maintained while Mr Phil Goff gives his point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3bf07d1e434d64b277ce8b46178932\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: As you will recall, my question was very specific. By reducing pre-deployment from 5 weeks to 3 weeks and therefore not achieving the training outcomes, did the Defence Force have reported to it that this introduced considerable risk? It is very specific. None of those things were answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc671f2032e2456fbba70a6d0d405b0b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister in a position to answer the specificity of the question? He is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc3665b784a41f883fb8a20ea4ce89e\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Of course not. Did the extension of Crib 19 from the usual 6 months to 8 months, without any provision being made for leave because of that extension, again caused by the Rugby World Cup, leave personnel exhausted at the end of that deployment, thereby also introducing further risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b4a953847443518785f76bf7b174a0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Crib 19 knew before they left New Zealand that their deployment would be extended. Further, leave provisions were made for Crib 19, and on the last point I do not have enough information to comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298dd6a930f284e589d4090cbba411f27\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why was Romero Base combat outpost in Bamian denied the extra medical training resource, which was described as essential, and given only one set of defibrillating pads, which was described as insufficient if more than one wounded person needed resuscitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619bb2c0414142b3abddd885146fe43a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not in a position to answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aec2a04ef94a4bcdb01a21d4bae8a8be\u0022\u003EBudget 2013\u2014Student Achievement, Behavioural Issues, and Community Engagement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00226689a181db57428ea33a53435524edab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226689a181db57428ea33a53435524edab\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcement has she made about the Government\u2019s commitment to support parents and communities to raise educational achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u00229bdc5ae98e5e426292db08330e0f1358\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bdc5ae98e5e426292db08330e0f1358\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Today I have announced that this Government is investing $80.5 million over the next 4 years to help support parents and communities in playing their role to lift the educational achievement of young people. Of this funding $63.6 million has been committed to Positive Behaviour for Learning. This very successful initiative provides tailored programmes for parents, teachers, and schools to address challenging behaviour in children and young people. The $63.6 million investment over 4 years means that an extra 200 primary and intermediate schools will be able to participate in Positive Behaviour for Learning over the next 4 years, and it will be available to all secondary schools by 2016.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1c6f2642f30451487a52d1c88241df5\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives has she recently announced to better support parents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2f39506ec4411a952b83f44bb584ce\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: This Government recognises and values the contribution parents make to their children\u2019s schools through boards of trustees. Boards of trustees are operated by parents and are critical to the success of our schools. That is why this morning I also announced that we are investing $14.5 million over the next 4 years to support boards of trustees\u2014this being an increase in funding of 86 percent. This Government also wants to ensure that all parents are well informed and engaged in their children\u2019s learning, and that is why we are investing $2.4 million into a new Connecting Communities initiative, which will focus on providing information to families, wh\u0101nau, aiga, and communities to enable them to confidently engage with their early childhood services and schools, and we are encouraging parents to stand in the elections for boards of trustees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002275e992796f20455296aa6b7bb20395f6\u0022\u003EGovernment Communications Security Bureau, Director\u2014Appointment Process\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022223604b0033249a3935e4d4d11970a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022223604b0033249a3935e4d4d11970a73\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his answer to Written Parliamentary Question No 4253 (2013) that he \u201Cneither agree[s] nor disagree[s]\u201D with State Services Commissioner Iain Rennie that the phone call he made to Ian Fletcher about the position of Director of GCSB should have been made by Mr Rennie; if so, what view other than agreement or disagreement does he have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00222dba45ad379c49d797bed79a065d16c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dba45ad379c49d797bed79a065d16c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by the answer, and I do not have a view on Mr Rennie\u2019s statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6d70e115bf4e4b81317e7d1f84364d\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Should Iain Rennie have made the phone call to Ian Fletcher rather than the Prime Minister himself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d647ebabfe49d6994be8be4d922266\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is a matter of interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d8ccd98aa514871833af6590827488e\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Prime Minister\u2019s interpretation of that question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f7d8c8b990e4dfd84fe4478dc84fa0a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, now you ask, I am comfortable with the phone call I made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3423e5f6c27454ebdbcbb6e67d93a34\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Did he discuss the possibility of Ian Fletcher taking up a position in the New Zealand Public Service when he met him for breakfast on 17 June 2011, just 3 days after he had approved the interview panel for the Government Communications Security Bureau director position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee58b1a89e14c239f240c32d8830983\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022790122700b7e4022920dc8053559b975\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What did he discuss with Mr Fletcher at the breakfast meeting on 17 June 2011?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8cf4484b8f44469959ed0b1348354ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Largely policy issues in relation to what was happening with economic development in Australia. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6bf40331bc42f4a3232b208c2ffedb\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Members on the other side of the House were wondering whether there were more questions. There certainly are, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1acbd504db340e9b9b8738032206c27\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ae8a22afcb4408da8324150f24c4d6b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014so could I seek the leave of the House to ask a further question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221491f6712d5546dca3837ab8c2ff11eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can seek leave. Leave is sought to ask an additional supplementary question. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd953ca203f44a4ba1c87031f384344f\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5ce3be311b648c99e73303a29d5fbee\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety, Workplace\u2014Task Force Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ba0b9107e974facbd74fb166dbaa549\u0022\u003EKauri Dieback Disease\u2014Research Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5d2634faec0420dac421c37060be66a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5d2634faec0420dac421c37060be66a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Darien Fenton seeking to debate under Standing Order 386 the release of a report of the Independent Taskforce on Workplace Health and Safety. The release of the report is a particular case of recent occurrence involving the administrative responsibility of the Government. Although the release of a report may warrant an urgent debate, this must be exceptional, especially when working through a report\u2019s recommendations will take some time. The Minister of Labour has indicated he expects to respond in July. I am, therefore, not convinced that the matter warrants the setting aside of the business of the House today. The application is therefore declined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI have also received an application from Brendan Horan seeking to debate under Standing Order 386 the funding of kauri dieback disease research. A proposal to discuss a continuing problem such as the funding of research is not one contemplated by Standing Order 386 in that it is not a particular case of recent occurrence. The application is, therefore, also declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224bf20a02bfc0453295bfa60bdffc35e2\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b02342d0dfa447ecac8584be58ece924\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022769abd7830e7474abd53352a1e74da05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022769abd7830e7474abd53352a1e74da05\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. I would like to have time to dwell on the broken promises of the Government: the promised 170,000 new jobs\u2014so far it has lost 30,000 since it made that promise\u2014the drop in exports, especially outside of the primary sector; or the fact that despite its promises we have now clocked over 200,000 people deserting New Zealand for finer pastures in Australia. I would like to be able to illuminate to the public as to why it is that 4 years into this Government we have got a terrible current account deficit. It is terrible. It is the worst in the developed world. But I do not have time for that because I want to tell the New Zealand public something positive rather than something negative, and that is that under Labour, if we are elected, power prices will go down. They will go down by $230 to $330 a year for the average household and down by 5 to 7 percent for business. This is something that the Labour Party is proud of, and we will make it happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe National Government has made a fundamental mistake. It has said that you cannot trust Labour to deliver that. The public of New Zealand know that, yes, they can. They will trust us on that, and they are going to vote for it. That is why National has been so vociferous and over the top with its hysterical reaction to what we announced. \u201CMarkets are good.\u201D is shorthand for \u201CCompetitive markets are good.\u201D It is not shorthand for \u201CUncompetitive markets are good.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere is a huge amount of evidence that the electricity market is uncompetitive, whether it is the Wolak report of $4.3 billion of overcharging; whether it is the Auckland University study, more recently, of over $3 billion of overcharging; or whether it is these ever-increasing prices that have increased for 15 years, at double the rate of inflation, since the Bradford reforms\u2014which Simon Bridges said need more time to bed in. We have given up on that ridiculous argument. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other problem is that under the current system over 50 percent of New Zealand\u2019s power\u2014close to 60 percent of it\u2014comes from old hydro assets. They get jacked up in their values every year, put into the power prices of New Zealanders every year, more and more, on the basis of a pricing model that is wrong. Free water is being capitalised by the Government into these balance sheets of the State-owned enterprises that are being sold. So we warned people. What did the Government say? That it is sabotage. What would people have said if we had not warned them? Those people would have been appropriately aggrieved that we did not warn them of what was coming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to reflect on what some of the commentary is saying. In the New Zealand Herald, Bernard Hickey said: \u201CPower barons fail to fool the public this time around.\u201D Around the same time, Anthony Hubbard in the Dominion Post said: \u201CIt\u2019s enough to make you want to scream.\u201D That was his description of the current situation in electricity. The New Zealand Herald, in an opinion piece by Chris Barton, said: \u201CPower competition needs proper regulation.\u201D He is not the only one saying that. We had Rob O\u2019Neill, the business editor of the Sunday Star-Times, saying, around the same time, that leaving the market as it stands is not good sense. He says there is a need to further regulate the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party is going to reduce power prices. This will have a benefit to the economy\u2014this will have a benefit to the economy. Business and Economic Research Ltd suggests that the economic benefit is $450 million per annum in additional economic growth. In addition, there will be 5,000 to 10,000 more jobs. On the other side of the House, they look at the world through a merchant banking lens. On this side, we look at it through a production and industrial jobs lens. That is the difference between us and that lot on the other side. It is not Stalinism or Albania or North Korea. It is because of a failed experiment by Max Bradford under National that power prices are remorselessly going up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002245edc0e0d84449c5889187a378108876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245edc0e0d84449c5889187a378108876\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E What Kiwis know, Mr Parker\u2014that Mr Parker clearly does not know\u2014is that if it sounds too good to be true, well, it is. What is very clear and what we know about what the Labour Party is saying and the Greens are saying when it comes to power prices is that there will not be another bean in generation in this country under their policy. If there is, it will be from taxpayers, not consumers as it should be. They will undermine investment. We have seen very clearly the business community in this country rebel in horror at what it has heard from Labour and the Greens. So I say this to Mr Parker: why does he not just offer a couple of the easiest words to say in the dictionary\u2014just say sorry? Just say sorry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EHe says: \u201CWell, it is not Albanian policy.\u201D\u2014he says that it is not Albanian policy. Well, let me give him a list of countries or states where the single buyer model is currently used: Poland\u2014I have nothing against Poland; my wife is half Polish, and that is very nice\u2014Ukraine, Honduras, Indonesia, Pakistan, Mongolia, Thailand, Morocco, and much of Latin America. Well, I have got nothing against those fine countries at all, but what is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7668356db2417bbae96e159a3fbc63\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We are doing our best to follow this speech, but there must be something wrong with the sound system. I cannot understand a word he is saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf842ac653ca4f1fb732467ec114f7a1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can certainly understand what he is saying, but there is some difficulty in hearing it because of the noise coming from the Opposition benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f73c621a504881934eb2869c98a3f2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: For the respected elder gentleman, I will talk more slowly. What is very clear in this House recently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228647b38d75fd43ddbb36455925012a33\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Your voice is breaking, Simon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e929d7b8768744208102cafb0d456850\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cosgrove, I am going to speak about your good city. What is very clear is that there has very recently been a power list in Canterbury. A power list has come out, and we know that the Prime Minister is No. 1. That is understandable. Gerry Brownlee made, I think, No. 2 or 3. I did not see Mr Cosgrove\u2019s name on it, but that is OK. Look, Lianne Dalziel, I think, did make it. That is all good. Well, I wonder, if the Green Party had a power list, who would be on that power list. Who would be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022477c26fee63a44fabd2edee9950b136d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCougar Bait\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218dd74a96aa0444499b03607ee4ed4e6\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not know whether there are cougars; I think they were looking for a panther down on the river at one stage, Mr Mallard. But if the Green Party did a power list, who would be on that list? Well, Nos 1, 2, and 3 would be one and the same, I think: \u201CHey, Clint\u201D, take a bow. \u201CHey, Clint\u201D would be running that party. And he does not just dictate the media lines for the Green Party; he is clearly running the numbers, the strategy, and everything else in the meetings that I have been at. So that is all good for Clint. But I say this to the Green Party: why is it trying to orchestrate democracy from the outside? If Clint is so good, why does he not stand for Parliament? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWhile we are speaking about orchestrating democracy, here is what we know about the Green Party: it spent around\u2014wait for it\u2014$400,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money on the asset sales petition. Well, not even the Labour Party would do that. Not even the Labour\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5b8cfdc56964845b6877f3d38c64def\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What about the million you spent on adverts on television?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201bd5455ef9a4c199f30447a0b51ae09\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Not even Annette King, in her worst vote-buying days, would spend $400,000 on an asset sales\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1d7820711b640d784932e688e426891\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is not acceptable for a member to accuse another member of vote buying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022545fc8b9d16c4b65bb47d6637cc08a32\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I said that she did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4e826c717f420a903891085c76d166\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. This is the general debate. It is a robust debate. Would the member please continue with his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2401903a85545c0bff5ce4f03c0fbc8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member Annette King to stop being so precious, sweetheart, because I do not think that you would vote-buy. But what I am saying clearly is that $400,000 was spent by the Green Party on an asset sales petition. What else did those members do when they did that? Well, we know that 26.9 percent of their 400,000-odd signatures\u201426.9 percent\u2014did not count. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227170305202c8402e94cf569be91719ce\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: They weren\u2019t on the roll.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5f15fa11304628acbd670e3ecf9960\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: That leaves 292,000; 107,000 were wrong. So how did they do that? Well, if Mr Mallard is going to take a call, he can tell me. Did they sign up children? Is that what they did? Did they sign up people two, three, four, or five times? I would like to know how a population the size of Tauranga or Otago was signed up on this petition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5da04c2d5147739feba868e238276b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5da04c2d5147739feba868e238276b\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is always a pleasure to follow such an erudite speaker as Simon Bridges, the previous member. He has obviously invested a great deal of time and effort in the research and understanding of his subject, and I wish him well in so far as the realising of the returns from that investment are concerned. I say \u201Creturns\u201D because that is, of course, why anyone makes any investment\u2014they expect a return from it. A good investment made wisely may return a handsome profit. The returns on the member\u2019s investment may well be recognition, promotion, and a happier and more successful parliamentary life. I wish the member every success with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EPerhaps he could even take a few moments to enlighten the Prime Minister as to an explanation of the word \u201Cinvestment\u201D, because the Prime Minister does not appear to know what it actually means. It may strike some members as rather odd that I should make such a claim, because, as members know very well, \u201Cinvestment\u201D is one of the Prime Minister\u2019s favourite words, particularly when referring to his Government\u2019s planned sell-off of New Zealand\u2019s family silver and the actual and ongoing sell-off of our lands, forests, fisheries, businesses, and anything else that is not nailed down to foreign buyers. Investors, the Prime Minister calls these buyers. They are investing in New Zealand, and that, we are invited to believe, is a good thing. The investors to whom the Prime Minister refers are indeed wise to commit their money to the purchase of land and assets in New Zealand, to the purchase of farms and forests and power stations, because the returns in profits will be great indeed, for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EFor us, however, for the people of New Zealand\u2014for the citizens and taxpayers of this country, which is being invested in\u2014the results and the returns and the profits will not be so handsome. For us, this so-called investment\u2014this foreign investment of which the Prime Minister speaks so often and so enthusiastically\u2014in reality represents a loss. The profits taken by foreign buyers come at the expense of us, the seller. This is logic. In business one person\u2019s profit can come only from another person\u2019s expenditure. If that expenditure was itself an investment for us, the seller, from which we might expect a return, or if the expenditure was for a service or product not previously available that the investors\u2019 investment had made available, then this would not be such a bad thing. But when the sale of our lands, forests, fisheries, and power stations involves no new, actual investment\u2014in other words, when it involves only the transfer of ownership and the transfer of the wealth associated with that ownership\u2014then it is to the nation\u2019s detriment and it is not the desirable foreign investment that the Prime Minister appears to be so enamoured of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EIf a foreign buyer comes to New Zealand and buys 1,000 acres of gorse-covered scrubland and turns it into a prime dairy farm, buys shares in Fonterra, and sets up home and lives here and becomes a citizen and sends his kids to the local school, then that is something that increases the wealth of this country. It could rightly be called an investment, which we should welcome. But when a foreign buyer snaps up 16 dairy farms from a receiver, that is not an investment for anyone other than the foreign buyer. There will be no more cows than there were before. There will be no additional jobs for dairy farm workers. There will be no increase in the volume of milk produced and processed. And when the new owners build their own processing facility and ship the powder it produces directly back to China, there will be a net loss of wealth from this country, because that will be the milk powder that Fonterra used to process and now does not, and the profits for the dairy industry that used to remain here in New Zealand will now go to China instead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EWhen a so-called business migrant comes to Auckland from Shanghai and buys 10 houses to rent out, pushing the market up and out of the reach of New Zealand families and first-home buyers, that is not investment. It is transfer of ownership, and that is all. There will not be 10 new houses built as a result, just 10 more rent payments going offshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EWhen the Superannuation Fund sells New Zealand forests to the Chinese Government, that is not an investment we should welcome. It is the transfer of national wealth from New Zealand to China. The Chinese Government will not plant more trees here than would be planted if the forest remained in New Zealand ownership. It will not build more sawmills or particle board mills or newsprint mills or furniture factories. There will not be more jobs for factory workers or logging truck drivers than there were before. All that will happen is that the same number of raw logs that used to be exported to China will continue to be exported to China, except that because the Chinese Government now owns the entire forest, New Zealand will not even gain the benefit of the value of a log, which on its own is worth less than the same tree would be worth as firewood. I know this because I used to be a firewood contractor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EUnlike the Prime Minister, I have lived in the real world and I have had real jobs. The Prime Minister is a currency trader, or he was a currency trader, and he knows about making money and making a profit. If I buy 100 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b85e54c2b94c798b282399fb52bf6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b85e54c2b94c798b282399fb52bf6b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022972f522d792d4cb09976172628fa1425\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022972f522d792d4cb09976172628fa1425\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My colleague was making so much sense that I move an extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00224a00a15a89dd4148b5fc8d249e747d6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a00a15a89dd4148b5fc8d249e747d6d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You could seek leave to do so, obviously, and I do not even think the member is bothering to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002294a330f6f0cf4b7fadb57591c076d6db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294a330f6f0cf4b7fadb57591c076d6db\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E How humiliating it must be for them, must it not? Despite spending nearly half a million dollars, and involving the entire membership of the Labour Party and of the Green Party, and most of the unions, they were unable to get enough valid signatures on their little petition to try to stop the partial sale of State-owned enterprises. How humiliating for them. Do you know that the Greens spent $91,000 of their budget\u2014that is their publicly funded budget; that is the budget allocated to them for parliamentary purposes\u2014buying signatures? Labour allocated 30 hours a week. Labour allocated publicly funded hours of MP time and resources, and I would love to hear a more comprehensive list of the public money that Labour spent on this petition. And the unions paid a national coordinator for 3 months to run this petition. What else did they do? All this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4cd46eafa0e41caaaa9e22a9ab997d2\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: So what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae0eace4460480b95ffa9e5de581f29\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CSo what?\u201D, says Clayton Cosgrove\u2014so what? All this, to buy signatures. All this effort, and they were way, way short, with over 110,000 signatures counted to be invalid. There were people signing two and three times, people not on the electoral roll, people who never existed. It is kind of like they thought in their innocence\u2014in their cute little happy innocence\u2014that the Clerk of the House was not going to check. Well, the Clerk of the House did check. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Labour-Greens have ripped off the New Zealand public. They have used public funds to buy signatures. They were so lazy, they were so arrogant, that they did not bother to check that one in four of those signatures\u2014one in four of those signatures\u2014was made up, was false, was duplicated, and was bogus. The Labour-Greens said they had massive support, but they did not have massive support. They had to buy that support. Even then\u2014even then, with all that effort and all that public money\u2014they have fallen well short of the public support that they needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDo you know what? The Labour-Greens should try playing within the rules. When the Labour-Greens issued a press release saying they had 393,000 genuine signatures, guess what? They were wrong. They have been exposed as playing fast and loose with the democratic process, and do you know what? They should just apologise. They should apologise to all those New Zealanders whom they tried to dupe. Do you know what? Support that has to be bought is not support that is freely given, and therefore is no support at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDo you know what? The National Government has always been upfront about the policy of partial sales of State-owned enterprises. We campaigned on the policy going into the 2011 election. We played by the rules. We took that policy to the country. What was Labour\u2019s flagship 2011 election policy? What was it? No asset sales. Well, guess what? That won\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262ed5e01cf7643a09fcacde3547fb123\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Get GST off fruit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b5cba71c064699b2814dbf6e07e8e6\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: And GST off fruit. That won it 27 percent of the vote. Our election commitment to the New Zealand public was to protect New Zealand\u2019s economy through a programme of partial sales of energy State-owned enterprises. We went to the country\u2014the National Party went to the country\u2014with a plan to responsibly manage the nation\u2019s finances and to build a more competitive and productive economy, and that is what we are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ELabour, on the other hand\u2014well, it has kind of lost its way. Labour is opposed to all the initiatives that would create jobs and boost incomes. Labour is increasingly being known out there in the public as the anti-growth party. It is becoming a bit obvious that under the influence of Grant Robertson and Russel Norman the Labour-Greens are shifting ever further, ever further, ever further to the left. They want to do things like increase the impact of the emissions trading scheme on households to the tune of $500 a year. They want to discount the price of electricity by around $300 a year, with a net increase to households of $200 a year. With that kind of \u201Cfreak-onomics\u201D, it is no wonder they are getting increasingly desperate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s policy is to responsibly manage the country\u2019s finances and build a competitive and productive economy. It is what we said we would do, and it is what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d794e32ebc3445d1bca93fa1453ed25d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d794e32ebc3445d1bca93fa1453ed25d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The only thing that could be said for that speaker, Jacqui Dean, is that she did not try to sing a song. Just when we thought that Paul Quinn\u2019s arrival would lower the tone of the House, somewhere unfortunately concealed in the labyrinths of Parliament is an office with a Gilmore lock on it, a sturdy Samoan security guard outside, and that is the price you pay for abusing your status as an MP and not fronting up. The less said about that, the better. I am an expert in these matters, and you would be well advised to take the advice of someone who still actually shows the scars, but that is another matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the proxy for the National Party, given that its members are unwilling to go out and sell their own policies\u2014that very small cabal who seem to think that the households of New Zealand do not deliver an improved cost of living equation. Under the leadership of David Shearer and the architecture of our senior finance spokesman, David Parker, we will be reforming the lazy, self-serving, unfair energy sector. We will be bringing in a Pharmac-like agency that will drive down the costs to the ordinary Kiwi household and improve their cost of living, enabling them to have more p\u016Btea to do doctors visits, which are getting out of control under Mr Ryall, to buy sports shoes, and to actually have a wee bit more p\u016Btea so that day-to-day living can be made easier. For businesses, they are already saying that if they stand and if they are identified by Steven Joyce, for example, as approving the direction of our policy, they will be hammered. In key industrial sectors people have told me very, very forcefully: \u201CDo not back down on this policy. Do not listen to Phil O\u2019Reilly. Do not listen to Mr Barnett.\u201D I say to them that they have decided to don the garb of the current Government. From this day on, they will be treated appropriately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is reasonable to have a public policy debate and for advocates from that sector of society to come forward. But do not come back into the political ring on one day, presuming that you are even-handed, and the next day, trot out the diatribes of the Government. Where were they? It was $3.6 billion down the bog hole for finance companies. Never heard a single word from Barnett. Never heard a single word from Phil O\u2019Reilly. Where were they when the $22 billion cost, according to PricewaterhouseCoopers, has been imposed on society in general for the debacle of leaky houses? Much of that responsibility lies within the stewardship of industry. Not a single word. We stand up for households, we stand up for equity, and we stand up for long-suffering Kiwis. And we get this avalanche of hostility, which is not based on fact. There is no wealth dissipation or destruction; there is distribution. That is what Governments do. That is what we are going to do. If it was good enough for John Key to deliver the largest percentage of the tax cuts to a narrow range of New Zealanders\u2014if that is not distribution, what is? If it is good enough for you to manipulate the tax system through policy changes for those distributed purposes, watch this space, we will do exactly the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe are resolute about this. The business of looking after households is miles away from the mahogany-topped tables of merchant bankers and their Kohim\u0101rama bases. Get on with it, live your life, but do not live it on the backs of, and do not rip off, ordinary Kiwis who, by and large, are powerless. That is why they look to this side of the House, because at the essence of what we stand for is equity, reform, and improvement. That side is not a party of reformers. The reformers sit on this side: capital gains tax, massive reform; compulsory savings, massive reform; and changes to our monetary policy, massive reform. Getting rid of the self-serving, profit-seeking, and mean-spirited tsars of the energy sector and their merchant banking friends is a reform well overdue. We will not resile, irrespective of how many hired mouthpieces turn up. I accept, when the backbenchers come to participate in this debate, they need merchant bankers to talk for them because no one knows them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u00222ddbcc41453848038e4cd1de4fab1f0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ddbcc41453848038e4cd1de4fab1f0b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E A mere apology is not going to reinvent the man from the North. This is the man who saw an investment opportunity. He bought all the electricity houses in Meremere, all the old rundown houses, and then he shifted them to the North and he rented them to his own wh\u0101nau. In fact, his own wh\u0101nau said \u201CNo thanks, Shane, that\u2019s a bit of a ramshackle house. I\u2019d rather be in a State house.\u201D That is the sort of slum landlord Shane Jones is, and that is what the Labour Party has invested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae2c216678c843529d21093675c10922\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299121804db1c482e9b83d70dad9ae0e1\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, do not worry about that. There are plenty of people in the North who were offered those houses. So how dare he come into this House and say he is the new messiah, that he is the new man? He is nothing but an old man, and an old man who has said sorry for his appalling behaviour. Saying sorry does not actually cut it. Saying sorry does not actually mean you receive the baton from somebody like Parekura. Saying sorry is not going to get you anywhere near the leadership. I will tell you something else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2b48b7d6bc4d679dcf4a069ad98efd\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: You should know, Tau, No. 80 on the list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9d878b3ede4a0cb0e32f03d636303d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I am proud to be No. 40\u2014I am proud to be No. 40. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI will tell you something about the petition. It was an absolute rort, at half a million dollars. One in four signatures\u2014it was basically signed by 2-year-olds, basically signed by other people who had already signed the petition. There needs to be an inquiry into that behaviour of the Greens. And let us not point the finger too much at the Greens, because who were their mates in this dastardly act? It was not New Zealand First. It just wants to steal property. It just wants to steal property\u2014it wants to nationalise it. It was the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b854897bbd744c3a3562e898525a39d\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful, Tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f3a338e25a4c179810246913644531\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7872d554f034e4bad41afd332da5d67\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It was Grey Power, so you\u2019re abusing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f3f93e10fe496eaeae5b5230f6c19f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it was not Grey Power; it was the Greens and Labour who spent half a million dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money. And here is the shameful thing: they could not even get the signatures that were required. They could not even get the signatures. They had months and months and months of getting out amongst the people and asking the people to sign a petition. How many signatures did they fall short of? Sixteen thousand\u2014in fact, it was most probably more, but I think the Clerk of the House was being kind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222408a8efcd2b41309d9ea2028d2c0c91\u0022\u003ETodd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: How many fakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022894582d63f494da8b5f3acf0b6bff56b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: How many fakes? Sixteen thousand, as far as I am concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a15969902c8047d09e3f29839dba4f79\u0022\u003ETodd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: 100,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f55e458ecef4f9f8d557af8cd7b67cc\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I got my figures mixed up. It was 100,000\u2014100,000 signatures. I could have understood there being 1,000 signatures that were a bit dodgy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022643d7b7d473b42188e01658c123333ce\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: Human error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166cb1fc4c2f45288a5d4dff498454f2\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, human error. But 100,000 people in this country? No, it cannot be. I cannot believe that a political party or two political parties would rort the system that much\u2014that much. I think there should be an inquiry. In fact I will call now on the Auditor-General to get down here and make an inquiry into the performance of the Green Party and the Labour Party, because half a million dollars could have gone to feeding some children. Half a million dollars could have gone to buy some Weetbix for the children, so that those children could go to school with a couple of Weetbix in their belly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EYou see how silly the Green Party and the Labour Party have been in trying to rort the system. One in four signatures was dodgy. One in four signatures was made up. One in four signatures was\u2014well, I have to say this: it is criminal. It is criminal. If we were to find somebody double-voting, they would have the full force of the law come down upon them. But what about double signatures here? What about the people who rorted the system here? Let us have a look\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022748a70148b9442b2a1f112676c65eaa4\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Arrest David Farrar now then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c78da26583c496bb1cac5634ffe94f6\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: There is no need to say that we should arrest David Shearer. There is no need to say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00226e88370d694646b197263aea35ebc703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e88370d694646b197263aea35ebc703\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E If Mr Henare really cares about the starving children in this country, he could give back the massive tax cut that he gave himself\u2014tax cuts that overwhelmingly went to people who needed them the least. So cry me a river, Mr Henare, about how much the National Party cares about poor children, because your record speaks otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the incredible announcement that was made by the Labour Party over a couple weeks ago, regarding New Zealand power\u2014a real game-shifter in terms of how the electricity market will operate in New Zealand in the future. I want to know why the National Party does not want households to have cheaper power, does not want businesses to have cheaper power, and why it continues to defend a market that is not competitive. Does anyone in this country really believe that we have competition in our electricity market? The Minister of Energy and Resources says that he believes we do. Well, I can tell you that the voters in this country do not, because they are sick and tired of the rorting of the electricity system and the fact that it is the struggling New Zealand consumer who is constantly having to pick up the cost of ever-increasing power bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have a surplus of generation at the moment. We have flattening demand for electricity. We have a collapsed carbon price, and yet every single household in this country saw its power go up on 1 April this year. The chief executive of Contact Energy indicated that further price increases were on the way. If, at a time of surplus generation, flattening demand, and a collapsed carbon price we do not see power bills go down, what will it take? I tell you what it will take. It will take a Labour-led Government to ensure that the market operates fairly for New Zealand consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI was astonished at the hysterical overreaction that came from the Government. It is a hysterical overreaction that has continued to this day, because we still have not actually heard any kind of logical argument from Government as to why what Labour and the Greens are proposing would not work. We have not had any debate on the substance of the policy. All we have had is over-the-top rhetoric that this is like the Soviet Union. Well, it is not actually. It is like the United States of America, and I was not aware that the United States of America is now considered a communist country. This is a system that operates around the world. This is a system that will ensure that in the retail market we have innovation and increased competition\u2014real competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOur proposal is not to regulate the retail market, as the Government is trying to claim, but we will see more competition. We will see more players able to offer newer products, newer options to consumers, because they are not going to be shut out in the way that they are now by the four big players\u2014the generator-retailers\u2014in the electricity market. What that means is a reduction in power bills in the order of hundreds of dollars for the average household. It also means a reduction in power bills for businesses, particularly small and medium businesses that do not have the negotiating power that some of our very big energy-using companies do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc75d952a7c442ca9c96e7df92a0ff2d\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Explaining is losing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cee04ce75614f40b8f69be6982e91ba\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CExplaining is losing.\u201D says Colin King. Well, we would like to have the debate with your Government, Mr King. I can say that hysterical overreaction and misrepresentation is definitely losing, Mr King, and that is exactly what your Government has been doing\u2014flat-footed over this policy, because National says that New Zealanders are paying a fair price for their power bills. It does not think that in a time of recession, of flattening demand, and of surplus generation, power bills should go down. It is quite happy to see them continue to go upwards and upwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat did National say was the one big thing it had done? The What\u2019s My Number campaign. Well, I would like to live in the world that National members live in, where they do not see the people coming through their offices every day, who are lucky if they can find one power company to take them on. The idea that they have a choice of power companies, given their credit histories because they cannot afford their bills, is ludicrous. It shows the kind of entitled, la-la land that the National Party lives in. Early payment discounts matter or work only if you can actually pay your bill, Mr King. For too long in this country it has been the poorest families who have not had any benefit from any of the measures that Governments with the best of intentions have tried to put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWell, I want to ask a simple question of the National Party. Does it think that the Labour Party was wrong in regulating lines companies? Silence. Silence. I tell you this: we regulated them because they were monopolies. If you act like a monopoly, you can expect to be treated like a monopoly. If you exhibit monopolistic behaviour, which is what has happened in this country, then the Government should step in and regulate to ensure that New Zealand consumers and businesses are getting a fair deal, and under a Labour Government they will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022589d1bb6e4704a82a3984555fd8f8c80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022589d1bb6e4704a82a3984555fd8f8c80\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E This Government has delivered a GDP that is amongst the highest in the developed world, at a time of long-term ongoing financial turmoil. Such a record is possible only because a National-led Government offers a safe pair of informed hands\u2014a safe pair of hands, not the desperate clutches from two parties promising cheaper power but seeking power at any cost. Blas\u00E9, ignorant, or blithely unconcerned about their antics\u2014they have already caused massive depreciation of the assets of hard-working New Zealanders, risked the drying up of international confidence in financial direct investment in our markets, and potentially been the direct cause of New Zealand having to borrow more to finance essential investment in our schools, in our hospitals, at ultimately greater cost to New Zealand Inc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EFar from saving New Zealanders money, this crypto-renationalisation of the electricity sector will lead to additional costs for every taxpayer, and we have not even factored in the avowed aim of the coalition of the left, which is to dramatically increase liabilities to all under their extended, expanded emissions trading scheme, which will bring in agriculture. From the party that gave us the Electoral Finance Act, perhaps we should not be surprised, but this takes the cake for barefaced effrontery. It is cocking a monumental snook, saying \u201Cpedicabo\u201D to the carefully nurtured long-term consensus between the two main parties on economic policy, with its emphasis on the free market and competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003ESocialism had its moment in the sun over decades ago, but it has withered across the world with its few remaining outliers in Cuba and Tanzania, sustained only by the benevolence of others. Yet a desperate Labour Party has announced it will jump into bed with the money printers of a green-red hue, and excise a wedge of wealth from the taxpayers and shareholders in the energy companies and somehow supposedly transfer this wealth to businesses and householders by political decree. Central planning did not win much kudos for promoting competition in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and it is unlikely to be any more successful in Aotearoa. More likely, the dead hand of the State would deal up far less fizz in energy marketing, the touted savings will be found to be largely illusory, and the observed gains in energy efficiency and the development of new generational capacity we have enjoyed to date will be found to slow. The statists have made no mention of reining in the increase in costs of local and grid transmission\u2014another reason to expect less from their policy than the political rhetoric promises. Having seriously eroded confidence in, and wiped hundreds of millions of dollars off, our capital markets, how else could this merry posse of political pranksters destabilise New Zealand Inc? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is a trading nation. In another life, the Labour Party acknowledged that. Indeed, a Labour Government signed the free-trade agreement with China. This Government has fostered the first mover nature of the relationship assiduously. Trade, which in 2007 was running under $2 billion, last year reached $6.9 billion, an increase of almost 17 percent in the year. That is a huge success story for New Zealand Inc. Prime Minister John Key, in his recent talks with Chinese President Xi Jinping, building on the bountiful opportunities becoming apparent in a multiple of sectors, including agriculture, tourism, forestry, science, education, and high tech, was seeking buy-in for a further development in our relationship: nothing less than New Zealand becoming China\u2019s preferred partner in creating global supply chains to feed its population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EContrast this with a hypothetical Russel Norman interchange with the Chinese President: \u201CCan I have my flag back now please, sir?\u201D. The Trans-Pacific Partnership is integral to this. The Trans-Pacific Partnership is nothing less than a wider Asia-Pacific free-trade agreement, which had its genesis in the strategic decision of New Zealand and Singapore to negotiate a bilateral free-trade agreement in the 1990s with the bigger picture in mind. Only last month, Japan was welcomed to join the US and 11 other countries at the negotiating table. The Trans-Pacific Partnership is about economic change of a manageable, useful, and ultimately essential nature if the New Zealand economy is to continue to be able to participate fully in the burgeoning and vibrant 21st century Asia-Pacific economy. Many visionaries see the Trans-Pacific Partnership as an essential building block for a future APEC-wide zone of trade and investment integration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe Greens never cease their alarmist, carping opposition to the Trans-Pacific Partnership. How could Labour resist the ceaseless importuning of its new bedmate? Labour\u2019s slippery slide to the left will have red warning flags waving furiously among the thoughtful members of New Zealand society. The threat to the health of New Zealand Inc. is real and apparent. Should the unthinkable happen and the populist posturings result down the line in a future Labour-Green Government, then Fiji would look increasingly attractive, not just for a holiday but as a long-term destination. Economically we would feel right at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f17859745be0464685a3289d86ad465b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f17859745be0464685a3289d86ad465b\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. Talking about Fiji, if I look at some of the legislation we are seeing in this Chamber today, that is what makes me think of Fiji. It is not lower power prices, it is not lower housing prices, and it is not our economy going forward, which is not what we see from the Government benches. If we are talking about Fiji, let us look at some of the legislation, the spying legislation, that this Government is introducing and passing under urgency in this Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat a low standard of debate we have seen from the Government benches today. Government members are not focused on ideas and they are not focused on solutions; they are focused on the Opposition. Do you know why? I guess it gives us a bit of heart as well, because it is the Opposition that is coming up with the ideas. It is the Opposition coming up with solutions. All we hear from the National Government on power is 20 years of excuses. For 20 years all Kiwis have heard is excuse after excuse about why their power bills have to go up. While our power bills over the last 20 years have gone up 70 percent in real terms, across the OECD the average has dropped 6 percent. Under this Government we have seen power bills go up over $300 a year\u2014under National\u2014and there is no relief in sight, because all we hear is excuses, attacks, and rhetoric ignoring the real issues facing us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThat is why the Green Party and the Labour Party came out with our positive suggestion, our positive solution, for a Pharmac-style single buyer. We came up with the ideas of progressive pricing and greater energy efficiency. Those are going to have a huge impact for the economy. We have seen that with the Business and Economic Research Ltd report. We could see more than 5,000 jobs created. That is more than we can see in the Government\u2019s agenda. Those members have lost 40,000 jobs in manufacturing over their term in Government. We could see the creation of 5,000 jobs from NZ Power. That is going to have a huge impact for households, because we know that Kiwis are shivering over winter. We know that Kiwis are going without energy just to eat. A quarter of our wh\u0101nau are in energy poverty. They are spending 10 percent or more of their weekly budget just to stay warm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ENZ Power is going to have a huge impact for the environment as well. Progressive pricing is going to help, I think, two key parts of the country. The first is those people just going without power. They are going to use power to keep warm. They are going to use power to stay healthy. Also, NZ Power is going to drive efficiency, because if you have taken advantage of the Warm Up New Zealand healthy homes scheme, if you have got an efficient house, and if you have got efficient appliances, there is going to be a huge incentive to reduce your power bills to stay within that 300 kilowatt a month progressive-pricing threshold the Greens will introduce. NZ Power is going to drive energy efficiency. Having NZ Power is going to drive cleaner energy. The Government is failing in its target to try to get 90 percent renewable energy in the future\u2014it is failing. There is no carbon price, and there is no signal from the Government. It is just picking winners in the oil, fracking, and mining sectors. NZ Power is going to drive clean energy, like solar, in households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ELike the Green plans to support our information and communications technology industry through a second internet cable, we also have plans to lower housing prices and give housing affordability to Kiwi families. It is the Green Party, not the National Government, that is coming up with real solutions for Kiwis. What we see from the National Government is just this irrational, hysterical approach. Its members said the plan was from the USSR. Steven Joyce said it was like North Korea. This is a guy who is fond of saying \u201Cjumping the shark\u201D. I cannot think of anything more \u201Cjumping the shark\u201D than Steven Joyce\u2019s North Korea comments, because it is not North Korea but South Korea that has a single buyer like NZ Power, which Labour and the Greens propose, and it is South Korea that has seen its electricity prices drop 38 percent over the same period ours have been driven up 70 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe saw Business New Zealand come out to try to defend the long-run marginal cost electricity generation pricing system, where, basically, all electricity, even if it is cheap, clean hydro paid for decades ago, is charged at the most expensive rate. We have seen accusations thrown around of economic vandalism. Economic vandalism is the $700 million that the Commerce Commission\u2019s Wolak report said was coming out of our economy every year in excessive super-profits\u2014that is the economic vandalism. It is the hundreds of dollars extra that Kiwi households are paying every year in their power bills, and excessive profits that we are going to see with the asset sales simply going offshore\u2014that is the economic vandalism. It is the $200 million a year that Kiwi businesses are going to miss out on because the Government has got its head in the sand over rising electricity prices and no solutions\u2014that is the real economic vandalism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIt is clear that the current market is not working. Simon Bridges reckons 20 years is not long enough for it to bed in. We do not see real competition. It is the same five generator-retailers that control the market. We have seen more than $300 million a year in assets\u2019 upward valuations driving it. What we are doing is giving Kiwis a real choice on energy. Under National you are going to hear more excuses and more tinkering. You are going to see your assets flogged off. Under the Greens, Kiwis are going to save money. They are going to see cheaper power. They are going to see cleaner power. It is like the National Government is advocating for old Telecom. Why does it not advocate for re-bundling the network, if it supports old-fashioned, uncompetitive markets? We are giving Kiwis a real choice, and I think Kiwis like the idea of cheaper power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00226957f6d0f6944f3b87ac1a3b87ffa47a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226957f6d0f6944f3b87ac1a3b87ffa47a\u0022\u003ETODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow along the lines of something I heard on television a little while ago, from somebody few New Zealanders respect: \u201CHey, Clint, what do you think of that last speech? But are we pleased, Clint? Clint, are we pleased?\u201D. Well, how am I going to explain this? You have heard of the \u201Cghost chips\u201D ad on TV. Well, that was the ghost Greens-Labour Minister: \u201CHey, Gareth. Clint thinks you\u2019re dumb.\u201D It is as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI want, before I get into the meat of this speech, to pay a tribute to, and recognise, the Hon Parekura Horomia on his passing. I have not had an opportunity to speak in the House since yesterday. It was a very sad day for New Zealand. Yesterday, I think, in this House, the way members came together showed the great respect that we had for Mr Horomia and all that he did. I remember being down playing rugby with the Parliamentary Rugby Team a couple of years ago in his home district. The great hospitality he showed to all members of this House, but also, indeed, what the public showed to him, is a mark of the man. I want to recognise that and put it officially on record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI come now to the issue of today\u2019s debate. It is really about who is fit and able to govern this country. We have heard other speakers talk about this Government\u2019s record over the last 4\u00BD years, coming on 5 years. Indeed, after the first 3 years of our Government, New Zealanders looked at what was put before them and went to the election. They had a chance to vote, and we were returned to Government with a larger number of votes than was cast 3 years earlier. So through some of the most difficult economic times that New Zealand had faced in, certainly, a generation, after 3 years of the great difficulty that the rest of the world had faced, New Zealanders had faith in the job that John Key and Bill English were doing in a National Government, and they returned us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EA year and a half from now there will be another election and, again, the Opposition will come forward, and the same old rhetoric, the same messages of the previous 3 years and the re-election will be that the Government has not done a great job. New Zealanders will be able to judge, and we will be very happy to come forward on the campaign stumps and make our case. But what New Zealanders will also be able to do for the first time in the 6 years we will have been governing is have a real snapshot of what an alternative Government\u2014the current Opposition\u2014would be like. Whatever Opposition members said at the last election, New Zealanders did not believe them. They did not trust them. The Opposition will be able to come forward and talk about what they believe they will do for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIt is very important that New Zealanders get to balance that, because what we have seen over the last few weeks and what we hear in this House today is about a Green-Labour coalition and the direction it will take New Zealand in. It has very extreme left-wing\u2014extreme left-wing\u2014policies around the economy, which I actually think the Green Party are driving more than the Labour Party. I know there are moderate members over there who are much more sensible than what has been brought forward in public, but we often know that, in Opposition, members of Parliament will do and say anything to get over to this side of the House, and that is what I think is happening here. So I think New Zealanders will accept what a lot of the Labour Party members are saying at the moment, but the direction that the Greens are driving them in is of great concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ELet us have a little look at what it might be like under that Green-Labour Government of the future. Well, the first thing they would want to do is go out to New Zealanders and say: \u201CWe have the ability to manage affairs properly, to work out what policies we should have, and to put them in place. You can take our guarantee that these things will work.\u201D So they could say, for instance: \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to go out and collect 400,000 signatures for something, and that\u2019s the feeling of what New Zealanders want.\u201D Then we would find, when they brought it back to this House, that all of a sudden, oh, no, it was not 400,000 signatures. They were a few wrong. As Mr Henare said earlier, 100,000 signatures were collected by the Green Party and the Labour Party, by many of the Labour Party\u2019s hard-working volunteers, and by the Green Party\u2014people they paid with parliamentary money, taxpayers\u2019 money. They paid on behalf of the New Zealand taxpayers to collect signatures. And what did we find when they said \u201CWe\u2019ve done a great job.\u201D, and they brought the boxes to Parliament, and were so very, very proud? What did we find after their hard-working volunteers around the country had been out in the markets and the sunshine and the rain collecting these signatures? What did they find? They found they had got their numbers wrong and the job was not done properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo to every single New Zealander out there who voted for this Government in the last election and who will have a chance to weigh up the two sides in the next election, mark my words: they got it wrong there, and they will do and say anything to get over on this side. Question all of the promises that they make, and make sure that they can count properly when it comes to simple things like signatures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00226712edabe5ae49f987093dd3fb64146c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226712edabe5ae49f987093dd3fb64146c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Ko T\u012Bt\u012Brangi te maunga, ko te Whau te awa, ko Ng\u0101ti P\u0101keh\u0101 te iwi, ko Parekura Horomia n\u0101 \u012Ahowa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E[The mountain is T\u012Bt\u012Brangi, the river is Whau, the people are of European descent, and Parekura Horomia belongs to the Lord.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis is the first opportunity to speak since Parekura Horomia\u2019s passing, and I would like to add my short words to those of other colleagues who have spoken for him, and acknowledge you and other members of this House who have honoured our colleague and friend in his passing last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI wish to address the claims the member opposite, Todd McClay, has made. This is not Soviet Union economics; this exists in the United States. This is not North Korean economics; the single-buyer electricity model is handled in South Korea, currently one of the world\u2019s most successful economies. It is not bizarre; it is common EU policy. It is followed in many of the world\u2019s most successful developing tigers like Brazil\u2014indeed, countries like South Africa. It is widespread around the world. And why is that? Because we have a problem: the electricity market is not working. It has not worked for a number of years. Successive Governments have tried to fix it since Max Bradford wrecked it, and it has not worked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt does not work because it is declining gas and coal resources that are setting the price for the whole market. It has not worked because residential tariffs have skyrocketed while commercial and industrial tariffs have not. That has widened the gap and meant that ordinary Kiwis are being ripped off. It has not worked because there are huge problems in the so-called free market. The spot market is so thin because the generators and the retailers co-own each other and trade only internally, not on the spot market. So you have the bizarre thing where the marginal unit of coal sets the whole price for the whole country through a spot market that does not work, and that is closer to Albania and North Korea than what Labour is proposing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe single-buyer model is one of three absolutely standard models around the world. The first one is a regulated market. Well, that is what we have tried, and it has not worked. The current Government does not have the foresight to see it. The second is a monopoly seller, or a single seller that is controlled. We had that in ECNZ; the previous Government wrecked it. The regulated market cannot now work because the Government is privatising half of the Crown\u2019s power companies, meaning domestic price rises will be even more rampant in the future, and New Zealanders will be exposed. Why does that matter? Well, as our leader, David Shearer, has said, it is the little people who get it in the neck. I remember doorknocking a senior citizens village in Glen Eden in my first campaign in winter, and I remember seeing senior citizens with their eiderdowns pulled around their shoulders because they could not afford heating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c402082491904f8b8db3574573699400\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the last time you visited them, 12 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad5f995dbe84fa0a964141f6d3c1b41\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: They could not afford to turn on an electric blanket. That member may have his own insulation, but many, many Kiwis do not, and they require decent power prices to stay warm in the winter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is very interesting what this debate is telling New Zealanders about the choices they will have next year. As people can see, they will have real choices: a choice between a bunch of cronies of the so-called free market who have spent the last years giving tax cuts to the wealthy and blessing the worst rorts we have seen for generations; and, on this side of the House, a team that is united behind the interests of ordinary New Zealanders\u2014a team that is going to go forward, win Government, and deliver real change. This team is going to deliver lower prices, higher employment, greater social equity, fairer chances for New Zealanders, and prosperity for all for many years to come. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002248792f9e739a43ac8c8e83f8d6af3e26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248792f9e739a43ac8c8e83f8d6af3e26\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is rather sad, really, because when one listens to the stories coming from the other side of the House, we are not hearing the complete story. When we look at the Greens-Labour view of the world, power prices are set to continue to rise. The truth of the matter is that household prices will be affected enormously under the raft of intended policies that have already been put on the table by the Opposition. If you consider that house power prices were meant to drop by $300 and yet the entry into the emissions trading scheme will raise house power prices by $500, simple mathematics tells you that house power prices will continue to rise. It is very similar to that petition for a referendum that the Greens-Labour Opposition attempted to put together. Again, the figures do not add up. In actual fact, it is representative of a lot of the policies that Labour members are speaking about. One has to cast one\u2019s mind back only about 3 months, and what they were talking about then is no longer included in their rhetoric. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EEffectively, what we really want to do at this point in time is give New Zealanders a real shot of what the economy is looking like. During the most difficult times in 3 decades\u2014or three generations\u2014the living costs are at the lowest levels of increase since 1999. The interest rates are the lowest that they have been since 1965. The wages after tax have risen by 22 percent. That is what benefits all New Zealanders, and we can assure New Zealand that by 2014-15 the Government will be back into surplus. That may be a signal to the Labour-Greens Opposition to spend up large with reckless, gay abandon; we, however, have to maintain that situation to ensure that we make those gains, lock them in, and benefit New Zealanders entirely. So from that point of view it is important that we continue to look for growth. Unfortunately, over on the other side of the House all we hear is about rewriting history, and if that does not work, they pretend that the 9 years that that Opposition was in Government never, ever happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ELet us not forget, New Zealand, that the Opposition that we have today put New Zealand into recession before any OECD country. That is something that needs to be remembered. When the Labour members were on the Treasury benches power prices went up by 72 percent. It is not rocket science; we have to bear those things in mind. It is all right to talk about spending money with gay abandon\u2014it may even be on the side of the angels when Labour talks about this limited competition\u2014but let us stop and think about some of the stuff that Labour has talked about that is very anti-growth. It wishes to introduce a capital gains tax. It sees that as being a sort of silver bullet, and yet the tax will not be on the family home and, therefore, will not address the issue that it is trying to deal to. But what it will do is morph into death duties through intergenerational assets being passed on, and that will affect growth within the farming industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI talked earlier about the introduction into the emissions trading scheme. The Opposition will bring agriculture into the emissions trading scheme. That in itself is an anti-growth agenda. There will be higher tax. There will be higher company tax. There will be charges on water, because we have heard that from the Greens. We know that the way the policies are at the moment there is a dramatic shift by Labour towards the left. We are told that they will do away with the 90-day new employment test for employers and employees, which we know has made 13,000 jobs available. This Government here is a pro-active, growth Government. It has got a great track record, and what we are hearing from the other side of the House, the Opposition, is only half of the facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba5ef1c175744ed09622a49a389f0705\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022833467fe1ed14dcda4c6c3e8c6039a26\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6cbc8f7b21b4e6b88825c6b55c58795\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6cbc8f7b21b4e6b88825c6b55c58795\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the introduction and first reading of the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill and its referral to a select committee, the introduction and first reading of the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill and its referral to a select committee, the second reading and Committee stage of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill, the second reading and Committee stage of the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill, the second reading and Committee stage of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, the introduction and passing of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, and the first reading of the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and its referral to a select committee. This is a very important suite of bills that the Government wishes to make significant progress on. I will just work back through them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill is about ensuring that in the event of insurance company failure there is capacity for the Reserve Bank, which is effectively the regulator, to ensure that there is an orderly run-out of insurance services. We know that in the environment in which we live at the moment the prospect of distressed insurers getting into trouble is very real. We have seen three companies in that position so far. We need to be prepared for the worst if it were to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe introduction and passing of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill is necessary in order for the House to take a position ahead of the High Court deciding some matters in the Capital \u002B Merchant Finance case, effectively ensuring that it is not the Public Trust that becomes the default trustee in circumstances of finance company failures. Once again, we have seen some pretty awful stuff in that regard in recent times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Land Transport Management Amendment Bill deals with a significant issue that is on the Order Paper of the House as a discontinuance allowance. Without this there would be no clear ability for people who operate off-road vehicles to in fact escape the road-user charge regime. There are a number of other measures that go into that bill that are extremely important and relate to the road-user charge and excise calculations on vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill is one that the House has dealt with on a number of occasions. There have been several extensions of that legislation. It is now time to have a position that will take us forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill is one that the New Zealand Police and the Ministry of Justice are very, very keen to see progressed, and one that I believe has widespread support from the House. It is one of those bills that will make a difference to the way in which prosecutions are able to be brought in a timely and speedy fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe introduction of the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill, with its referral to a select committee for a 4-month period, is one that clearly deals with a number of issues that have been topical in recent times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFinally, as to the introduction of the first bill that we will deal with today, the first reading of the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, this bill clears up a number of matters that were brought to light in the recent inquiry, so that the operations of our security services can be carried out in a fully lawful way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289221a93c9904afcacbd6227ddfd54ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ddc01d32de245e8b4590f6d20825eaa\u0022\u003EGovernment Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002292499bf402c14e58b3b1dd9f69830b8f\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022594ed53773424e98adad44e18bb3a0c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022594ed53773424e98adad44e18bb3a0c7\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister responsible for the GCSB: I move, That the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 26 July 2013, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 188 and 191(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis omnibus bill focuses on New Zealand\u2019s intelligence community, which has a vital role to play in our national security. The bill makes amendments to three separate Acts, and it has three main objectives: first, to provide a clear and consistent legal framework for the Government Communications Security Bureau to operate within; second, to update the bureau\u2019s legal framework in response to the rapidly changing security environment, particularly in relation to cyber-security and information security; and, third, to strengthen the oversight regime that applies to our intelligence agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe recent compliance review of the Government Communications Security Bureau has highlighted that there are difficulties of interpretation in the existing Government Communications Security Bureau Act 2003. The 2003 Act sought to codify and make transparent existing practices of the then Government Communications Security Bureau, but, under scrutiny, the 10-year-old Act potentially limits the bureau\u2019s ability to provide the support and advice that successive Governments expected, possibly limits current support and advice that can be provided, and most certainly will restrict the bureau\u2019s ability to look after New Zealand and protect New Zealanders. For an organisation with intrusive powers like the Government Communications Security Bureau, an unclear legal framework is simply not good enough. Therefore, the responsible thing for this Parliament to do is to move to clarify that Act. This bill does that. This bill will make the Government Communications Security Bureau Act clearer and more transparent so that it is clear what the agency can and cannot do. In addition to that, the bill also strengthens the oversight regime of our intelligence agencies by making amendments to the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security Act 1996 and the Intelligence and Security Committee Act 1996. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Government Communications Security Bureau is arguably more important in New Zealand now than it has been for many years. As the key agency responsible for advising on and protecting against threats to New Zealand\u2019s cyber-security, the Government Communications Security Bureau is at the forefront of tackling a rapidly increasing threat. The bureau has three core functions: first, information assurance and cyber-security; second, foreign intelligence; and, third, cooperation and assistance to other entities. Two of the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s three core functions\u2014specifically, information assurance and cyber-security, and cooperation and assistance to other entities\u2014are currently compressed into only a single paragraph in the Act. This makes it both complex to negotiate and inadequate to empower the bureau to carry out the full range and scope of activities envisaged in these functions. Splitting the two functions apart in the legislation will allow us to more easily articulate what the Government expects the Government Communications Security Bureau to do and will provide greater transparency. It is important because New Zealand is no longer as distant from security problems as it has been in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe particular role of assisting with information security is clearly indicated in the Government Communications Security Bureau Act, but the current wording could be interpreted to mean helping only the public sector, potentially excluding critical infrastructure operators and organisations of national significance. We want to be able to use the Government\u2019s significant investment in technology and expertise in this field for the benefit of the wider State sector, critical infrastructure operators, and other key economic contributors. A safeguard is built into the bill in this area. It requires the Government Communications Security Bureau to get a warrant from the responsible Minister and the Commissioner of Security Warrants when it is performing this function in relation to the communications of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI will now speak briefly about the bureau\u2019s foreign intelligence function. This function is currently defined in the Government Communications Security Bureau Act in a highly prescriptive way, describing the overall function that the function involves and how it is to be achieved. The Act specifies such activities as deciphering, decoding, translating, examining, and analysing communications. When the House considers how technology has changed the way we communicate over the past 10 years, and in light of future changes that can already be anticipated, these specific descriptions are extremely limiting. They are also likely to mean that the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s abilities to protect New Zealand and New Zealanders are left behind by technology. We are therefore proposing to describe the bureau\u2019s foreign intelligence function at a higher level than the current prescriptive legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would like to move now to talk about the third function of the Government Communications Security Bureau, which is cooperation and assistance to other entities. A particular issue has arisen around the bureau\u2019s role in supplying crucial support to other entities, including the New Zealand Defence Force, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service, and the New Zealand Police. It has been a longstanding practice of the Government Communications Security Bureau, including under successive Labour-led and National-led Governments, to provide assistance to other entities. However, as I stated earlier, there are difficulties of legal interpretation in the existing Government Communications Security Bureau Act, including in relation to this assistance. The Government has decided that there is too much uncertainty to continue this very important activity under the existing law. The vast bulk of this type of activity remains on hold until legislation is passed by this Parliament to provide greater clarity about whether the bureau can provide assistance to others. Currently the Act says that assistance may be provided but only on matters relevant to the pursuit of the bureau\u2019s own objective, or the safety of a person, or the prevention or detection of serious crime. That limits or at least makes uncertain when the bureau is able to share its expertise across the intelligence community and the wider public sector. We want to provide greater clarity and ensure the bureau can help other agencies fulfil their lawful duties, particularly in the areas of security and law enforcement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would like to move now to speak about the significant changes to the oversight regime supporting the clarifications to the Government Communications Security Bureau Act. The most immediate oversight of activities by our intelligence agencies is internal oversight within an organisation. In respect of the Government Communications Security Bureau, two of our proposed law changes to the Act will impact directly on the way it manages itself. First, the bureau will be required to maintain written records of all warrants and authorisations in a way that is readily accessible by the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. This will support a compliance culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESecond, we are creating new obligations for the bureau in respect of the handling of personal information. These obligations will be based on the following principles, which are recognised under the Privacy Act: the purpose of collection, storage and security, accuracy, and not keeping information for longer than necessary. Under this bill the principles identified above will be transposed into the Government Communications Security Bureau Act with appropriate modifications to recognise the requirements of national security and the nature of intelligence gathering to serve as the basis of a new policy on personal information. This policy will be signed off by the director of the Government Communications Security Bureau in consultation with the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security and the Privacy Commissioner, and compliance will be regularly audited with results communicated to the Privacy Commissioner. The Office of the Privacy Commissioner and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security will have overlapping responsibilities in this area, which will help give confidence that the bureau is implementing these privacy protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would like to discuss external oversight, which applies to intelligence agencies as a whole. As one of our most important new measures we are creating the role for the Commissioner of Security Warrants in relation to the Government Communications Security Bureau Act. Whenever the bureau is called upon to intercept the communications of New Zealanders\u2014this could occur either as part of its information cyber-security function or when the bureau discovers a New Zealander acting as an agent of a foreign power as part of its foreign intelligence function, which is one of the existing exceptions to the basic premise in section 14. In such circumstances, before the bureau can take further action, it will first be required to get a warrant issued jointly by the responsible Minister and the commissioner. This is very similar to the role of the commissioner in respect of domestic warrants sought by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service and is an important safeguard in respect of New Zealanders\u2019 privacy. Of course, the commissioner will not play a role when the Government Communications Security Bureau is assisting another entity to perform that other entity\u2019s functions. This is because the other entity will have the authority to undertake that activity. Such authority could take the form of a warrant issued by the courts or an existing statutory authority granted by Parliament, or such other source of legal power to carry out the activity. In such cases the bureau will be governed by the restrictions and limitations that apply to the other entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn broad terms, the changes to strengthen the Inspector-General legislation fall into three categories: the first is legislative changes, expanding the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security\u2019s work programme, and enhancing reporting responsibilities; secondly, increased resourcing of the Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security; and, thirdly, legislative change to address the required qualification to broaden the pool of candidates and the appointment process. It is the Government\u2019s intention that the Inspector-General\u2019s office will become a more proactive overseer of the intelligence community that is able to launch its own investigations and is better resourced to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the changes proposed to the Act do not represent an extension of powers, but do clarify that the Government Communications Security Bureau can resume its longstanding practices under successive Governments. The legislation must be clear, must be fit for purpose, and must allow the Government Communications Security Bureau to get on with the job of protecting the interests of New Zealand and of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223132cad37f7945da8a086b7b23e28eaf\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before the Minister sits down, on the issue of process and good governance, it is important for the Minister to indicate to the House to which committee this legislation is to be sent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2d628b1072b4519b87c2d342c82464a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: She did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221caf43b2df2141e1a93f29db66b65d59\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I did\u2014I did say it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00222bc8c1e421144e3f813ac879080f4362\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bc8c1e421144e3f813ac879080f4362\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Today we see the Government trying to do a patch-up job on an intelligence network, on intelligence agencies that have some very serious shortfalls. I would put it to you that it is too important to simply apply a band-aid to save face for the Prime Minister. This is about our national security. It is about our human rights. It is about Kiwis\u2019 confidence in the integrity of our intelligence agencies, in agencies that we need. We need them to function according to the security demands that we have on us, but also according to the protection of our privacy and our human rights. That is why we have been calling from the very beginning of the debacle around the intelligence agencies for a wide, independent inquiry right across our entire intelligence network, not just about the internal workings of the Government Communications Security Bureau, because it is the right thing to do. We need to do this properly, we need to do it once, and we need to get it right, because we cannot go on as we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI want for the House to reflect just exactly why we are debating this issue in the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill today. We are debating this issue because we have had a train wreck over the last few months around our intelligence agencies, which has severely undermined the confidence that the public has in those agencies. On 20 January last year the police, with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, raided the home of Kim Dotcom, after the Government Communications Security Bureau had been spying on him for more than a month. The very next month, in February 2012, questions were raised with the Government Communications Security Bureau by other agencies about the lawfulness of that surveillance, because Kim Dotcom was a New Zealand resident. It concluded, strangely enough, that its actions were lawful. In May the directors of the Government Communications Security Bureau, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service, and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security all knew there were legal issues with the bureau\u2019s spying on New Zealanders, and not just in Kim Dotcom\u2019s case. In July it told John Key about the possibility that New Zealanders were being spied on unlawfully, and he did nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe next month the Government Communications Security Bureau director went to see Bill English and asked him to sign a ministerial certificate suppressing the details of the agency\u2019s involvement in spying on Kim Dotcom\u2014suppressing the details, and keeping out of any public scrutiny the fact that it had screwed up. John Key claims he was not told about any of the purported illegal spying until 17 September, when he was told that the Government Communications Security Bureau had acted unlawfully. He did not admit at that point that the broader concerns about illegal spying on New Zealanders had, in fact, been raised with him 2 months earlier, and he had done nothing in order to suppress that possibility of that spying being illegal. I have not even mentioned the fact that in the midst of all this John Key shoulder-taps a friend of his to become the head of the Government Communications Security Bureau. All of that contributes to an overwhelming lack of confidence in our intelligence agencies by the public at large. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ENow, in the heat of all of that political fallout over this debacle, what the Government is trying to do is to rush through legislation in hindsight to make these activities legal into the future. That is not what is needed. What we need is a full and independent inquiry, an inquiry that obtains terms of reference from right across Parliament, and an inquiry that can be agreed upon. I believe that is entirely possible. We need an inquiry of the ilk that is being done in Australia. In Australia they conducted an inquiry in 2003, an independent inquiry that looked at all of its intelligence agencies, and did it again just 2 years later. Australia is not afraid of being able to look at its intelligence agencies in total. We should not be afraid of doing that either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis fully independent inquiry will look right across the agencies. It will look at all of their functions and all of their accountabilities. We accept, I certainly accept, that some of the findings that could come from that inquiry may well be similar to the conclusions that appear in this legislation\u2014completely accept that. But we know it will be part of a much broader analysis. We need this inquiry because, in addition to the debacle that we have seen over the last few months around the Government Communications Security Bureau, we know that the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service wants to expand its role and has got legislation. We have not seen that yet, but we know that legislation is written and has been put to one side at the moment to be introduced at some later date, no doubt. We know that there has been no independent inquiry since the 1970s in this country. There have been massive changes in technology, and I completely agree with the Prime Minister, who says that there are threats to our cyber-security. Absolutely\u2014I completely accept that. But we need to be going about this in a way that makes sure that we have the best possible set-up and structure to enable those threats to be dealt with and with the correct ability to provide oversight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOne of the things that some of this legislation deals with is the Intelligence and Security Committee, the parliamentary oversight of these intelligence agencies. I can tell you that the ability of that parliamentary committee to provide oversight is woeful\u2014it is woeful. I want to give you two examples. First, we are not permitted to speak about what we discuss in these meetings, but I can tell you that at the last meeting that we had to look at some of the legislation that was coming forward, the briefing that we got was well below the level that the press gallery received a few hours later the following morning, together with an 8-page briefing statement that we did not get a chance to have a look at. Why do we have a committee that is given less briefing than what the parliamentary gallery will be able to receive about something as important as this legislation? The second example: when the legislation was announced at a press conference by the Prime Minister earlier this week I got a copy of the legislation 2 minutes\u20142 minutes\u2014before that press conference. I am a member of that committee and I got it 2 minutes before. So if this committee is going to be treated with that sort of approach, I think that this legislation does not go anywhere far enough in terms of being able to satisfy public opinion that scrutiny is adequate and able to give the public the confidence that these agencies are operating effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThen there is the question of urgency around this legislation. We need to rush this through because\u2014why? Because we are led to believe that there are somehow threats around New Zealand. Again, I believe the Prime Minister is playing politics. If it was so urgent, why did we not rush it through last year? This is now May. Either the Government is not taking those threats seriously, which it says it is, or there is actually no real problem, and, therefore, we do not need to rush it through today. In fact, we could have had an independent inquiry that had the buy-in of the entire Parliament last year. We could have had the buy-in of the entire Parliament, we could have had terms of reference that were agreed to by the Parliament, and we could have had that inquiry reporting back to Parliament in a way that gave New Zealand real confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe oppose the legislation because it is a band-aid. It is an ad hoc approach, it is way too mired in politics, and it is an attempt to get the Government out of a hole. It is not durable, it is not lasting, and it is not going to go as far as it needs to go in terms of satisfying the public that they can have real confidence in our intelligence agencies. We need to balance our national security, both our physical and economic security, with our right to privacy and civil liberties. If the Government was to establish such an inquiry that would enable us to satisfy both those competing objectives, we would cooperate with that, we would work with it, and we would work to bring forward to this Parliament legislation that would be able to give the public the confidence that our agencies not only are up to date but have the scrutiny and the correct accountability that we need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eda9f76421e34f758bf1cef182f2aa0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eda9f76421e34f758bf1cef182f2aa0a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the Minister of Justice wishes to correct her statement to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00223021ff77ad2145279a5ec6e7da802f79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223021ff77ad2145279a5ec6e7da802f79\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e26abf5a6ab45088514b62f5a583466\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a personal explanation or a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2358cb4ae2473ba54429a5555b95e8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is probably a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e90d9f87e5da4d2295b952cb9711bf70\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: All right, a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022126ace0723c541e280a81c94e4881977\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is a point of order. I am sure you will tell me if I am wrong, Mr Assistant Speaker. At the end of my speech on the first reading you asked whether or not I had nominated the committee. I thought we had, and other members thought we had. I think there is some doubt about that. In fact, I meant to and I do nominate that the committee is the Intelligence and Security Committee. Mr Assistant Speaker, I am sorry that I gave you the wrong information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee7117257ee24a68a5d5a3dc3cc2b1f3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9bbb6e39eb2427fac28fa7e023da140\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9bbb6e39eb2427fac28fa7e023da140\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to speak on this important bill, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, where we are acting responsibly as a Government in the interests of New Zealand and New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThis omnibus bill is about New Zealand\u2019s intelligence community, which is of course critical for our national security as New Zealanders. As the Minister of Justice has said, this bill effectively has three objectives: to provide a clear and consistent legal framework, which is fundamental in an area such as this; to update the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s legal framework, again fundamental as we live in a fast-moving and fast-paced world; and, thirdly, to strengthen the oversight regime that applies to our intelligence agencies, which of course is important in a country such as New Zealand, where we abide by the rule of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E The history of this bill is reasonably well known: a compliance review of the Government Communications Security Bureau by Rebecca Kitteridge, a review of the Government Communications Security Bureau Act 2003, and a review of the oversight mechanisms that apply to our intelligence community. We are also addressing recommendations that have been made by the Law Commission regarding intelligence agencies and privacy law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe Government Communications Security Bureau has an absolutely pivotal role to play in protecting our security as New Zealanders. Its operations are highly sensitive and its work cannot be talked about in detail because of a need to protect its capabilities and areas of focus. This means that its successes can rarely, if ever, be publicly discussed. But we are in no doubt, on this side of the House, that the Government Communications Security Bureau has, along with its other intelligence community colleagues, made an important\u2014indeed, a very important\u2014contribution to our national security over the years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWe cannot have, in New Zealand, an unclear legal framework that leaves room for interpretation and debate. That would not be just not good enough; it would be entirely wrong. Therefore, I started this speech by saying that through this bill we are doing, I think, the responsible thing as a Parliament in moving to clarify the law. This bill will make our regime clear and fit for purpose, and will allow the Government Communications Security Bureau to get on with the important job of protecting New Zealand and New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6a9fc029d9a4e569f0755f70db24d74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6a9fc029d9a4e569f0755f70db24d74\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to oppose this bill, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. I think the speech we have just heard from Simon Bridges gives us some insight into what the problem is here. He spoke for, what, 3 or 4 minutes about legislation that he himself tells us is significant and important, and covering a significant and important agency, and he cannot even be bothered filling up his time to talk about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is, as David Shearer has said, a band-aid solution. There are significant issues at play here for our security, for our human rights, and for privacy, and this Government thinks that it can sweep all of the problems\u2014the debacle that has taken place over Kim Dotcom and the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s behaviour\u2014under the carpet with this piece of legislation. That is simply not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe do need a full inquiry. We need that inquiry because this is not about just the Government Communications Security Bureau; this is about all of the intelligence agencies that work in New Zealand. We know that the SIS legislation had been drafted. We know that there were to be changes to the way that the SIS operates. Since the Government Communications Security Bureau Act 2003 was passed, the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand has come into existence, the Police\u2019s organised crime agency. We know that the Directorate of Defence Intelligence and Security now apparently wants the Government Communications Security Bureau working with it as well. There is an interconnected group of intelligence agencies, and for the Prime Minister to come down to this House and put in place a piece of legislation that sticks a band-aid over a problem that he does not want New Zealanders to focus on in the Government Communications Security Bureau, and say that this is the answer to everything, is simply wrong and unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is not just the Labour Party that is saying this. I want to quote from John Armstrong\u2019s column in the New Zealand Herald from Thursday, 11 April. This is what he said: \u201CA full inquiry is needed because formally allowing the GCSB some room to function in a domestic context is potentially a huge foot in the door in that arena whatever conditions or provisos are put on such change.\u201D He calls it \u201CNo8 fencing wire sort of stuff\u201D, and that is not good enough when we are talking about an agency with the intrusive powers of the Government Communications Security Bureau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EDoing this, enlarging the functions in this way\u2014and it is simply not credible for Judith Collins and Simon Bridges to tell us that there is no enlarging of the function here; there quite clearly is. Whether or not that is justified, given the changes in terms of cyber-security, given the different agencies that now operate in New Zealand, we simply do not know today. That is why we need that formal inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E But it is quite clear, when we look into the detail of the language in this bill, that the assistance that the Government Communications Security Bureau is now going to be able to provide agencies is \u201Cin their lawful functions\u201D. It has not got anything necessarily to do with national security; it just says \u201Cin their lawful functions\u201D. What does that mean? What greater powers does that give? Are we moving here away from information assurance into some other kind of area? What priorities are going to be put on the Government Communications Security Bureau? We cannot answer any of these questions, because we simply do not have enough information about the way that these agencies interact with each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut the scale of the change here justifies far more than a band-aid solution. This goes beyond clarifying the law. It goes into how this agency operates. It is very important that people understand what the distinction is between the Government Communications Security Bureau and\u2014let us take one of the other agencies\u2014the SIS. That distinction is that the bureau operates as part of an international network. The assurance, I think, that many New Zealanders would want is if the bureau is going to be given powers to work with other agencies, what assurance New Zealanders have that that information is not being passed overseas. The very nature of the expertise that the bureau is bringing to the table is its connection with international agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo here we have a fundamental change to the premise of the difference between, in this case, the Government Communications Security Bureau and the SIS. That is not a minor clarification; that is a fundamental change in the way the agency works. Just putting a bill before Parliament and saying \u201CThis is just to clarify what we\u2019re already doing.\u201D is not good enough when it comes to addressing the differences and the distinctions between those two agencies. As David Shearer has said, there may well, at the end of an inquiry, be a need to change this legislation to take account of new technology and to take account of new threats, but it is not good enough to bring this in and not have the discussion about that as part of a wider and fuller inquiry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen I obtained the documents from the court about the Kim Dotcom case, one of the things that struck me about the documents that came from the Government Communications Security Bureau as part of those court documents was the classifications on top of each page of those documents. Having worked in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, I am used to the various titles and names, but there were some that I did not recognise, and on further investigation they were classifications that indicated that this material was going to be shared with international agencies. We have been told publicly by various people with the bureau that this material would not be shared, but that information\u2014those designations on those documents\u2014indicates that it is routine for Government Communications Security Bureau information to be shared internationally. What assurances do New Zealanders have that under this legislation, if the bureau is working with those other agencies, that information will not be shared overseas? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that the fundamental purpose of the Government in bringing this legislation to the House is to sweep under the carpet John Key\u2019s role in the Kim Dotcom affair, because for all of Rebecca Kitteridge\u2019s report into what was going wrong at the Government Communications Security Bureau, the one thing she was not allowed to investigate was the Kim Dotcom case. The one thing that actually started all of this off, the Kim Dotcom case, she could not investigate. That is because the Prime Minister does not want New Zealanders to know about his role in that affair. We have managed over months and months to drag out information from the Prime Minister, and we now know that as early as July last year he was aware of unlawful spying, and he did nothing. He did nothing about that. In May the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security raised concerns about this, and the Government Communications Security Bureau, we are asked to believe, did nothing about that until it talked to the Prime Minister in July. What we do know is that in February 2012 the bureau knew that its spying on Kim Dotcom had been unlawful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhere was the Prime Minister in all of it? There is a lot of talk in this legislation about oversight and the importance of oversight. We have seen the most lax oversight of this agency by John Key, the Minister responsible for the GCSB, and that is why he does not want us to look into that. We cannot have a proper conversation about changes to the Government Communications Security Bureau Act without knowing exactly what went on in the Kim Dotcom case. David Shearer has already mentioned the fact that Australia has had such an inquiry, and one of the outcomes of that inquiry was greater parliamentary oversight. I strongly believe that we do need that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere are some things in this bill that are useful around the oversight. The expansion of the Inspector-General\u2019s office to have a Deputy Inspector-General\u2014that is a good thing. We need to look at the clauses around how that person is appointed, but I think widening the pool beyond a retired judge is a good thing as well. But what about that parliamentary oversight? In our democracy we need to have confidence in institutions and agencies such as the Government Communications Security Bureau. Public confidence in our intelligence agencies is at rock bottom, and putting up band-aid legislation simply is not going to satisfy that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am going to appeal now to the parties in this House that could stop this legislation and give us the full inquiry that we need. I want to quote something that Peter Dunne said in October last year, because I believe that he is actually right in what he said. He said, when talking about the intelligence agencies, \u201CI \u2026 believe very strongly that when exercising their responsibilities the agencies of the state must at all times act within the law they are pledged to uphold. In a free state, it cannot logically be otherwise.\u201D He finished by saying: \u201CFree societies operate on the basis of mutual consent. We respect the authority of the state because we believe it to be exercised in our best interests. When confidence in our institutions is diminished by their own actions, the cohesion of our society is eroded. That erosion and where it might lead is what has me feeling uncomfortable right now.\u201D That is what Peter Dunne said last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis legislation cannot get rid of the discomfort that he feels, because all it is doing is putting a band-aid over the problems that he himself identified. I am calling on Mr Dunne and others to oppose this legislation, because New Zealanders deserve a full inquiry into our intelligence agencies to restore confidence in them and to create around them the legal and oversight framework that can balance together issues of national security, freedoms, and privacy. That is the only responsible course to take. This bill does not take that course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcb924f3d78546b788e4b3e38798ff93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcb924f3d78546b788e4b3e38798ff93\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of the Green Party about the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. It strikes me always as strange that it is the parties of the right that want to restrict our freedom. Time and again what we find is that the parties of the right want to intrude into our lives. They want to listen to our phone calls, they want to read our emails, and they want to know what we are looking at on the internet. And here we have in front of us yet another bill from the parties of the right\u2014the National Party and the ACT Party, supported, I guess, by Peter Dunne, but I hope he changes his mind\u2014to restrict our freedom and breach our privacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ELet us remember what this bill does. This bill gives the Prime Minister and the Government Communications Security Bureau greater powers to break into our houses, to put bugs into our houses. It gives it greater power to listen to our phone calls without a warrant. It gives it greater power to look at our emails without a warrant\u2014it does not need a warrant. It gives it greater power to monitor every activity that we do every second of every day. That is what a surveillance State is about. It is striking that it is always parties of the right that support the surveillance State, that oppose freedom, and that try to breach our privacy year after year after year, and here we have another example of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe tragedy of it on this occasion is that in the past the attempts to, basically, undermine our freedom have been justified by the war on terror, or whatever, and, of course, there was the \u201CRed Terror\u201D before that. On this occasion the justification for the expansion of the powers of the bureau to spy on us even more is in order to cover up the Prime Minister\u2019s embarrassment. That is the tragedy of this particular piece of legislation. What stands behind it is the fact that the Prime Minister is embarrassed, as the responsible Minister who was supposed to be keeping the Government Communications Security Bureau acting lawfully and failed. This bill, to allow the spy agencies to intrude further into our lives\u2014its sole purpose, really, or its main purpose, driven politically, is to cover up the political embarrassment of the Prime Minister, and that is a tragedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhy is it that the parties of the right always support further intrusion into our freedom and our privacy? I would argue it is because they think that they are never going to be the target of it. They think: \u201COh, we\u2019re conservatives. The security institutions don\u2019t target us. They\u2019ll target those lefties, those greenies, those radicals\u2014they\u2019re not going to target us. So we don\u2019t care that we give more power to the Government Communications Security Bureau to break into our houses and listen to our phone calls, because we\u2019re not going to be the target of it.\u201D, and maybe they are right. I mean, if you look at the history of the SIS, it was found that it was spying on Aziz Choudry, an anti - free trade activist. The SIS persecuted Ahmed Zaoui because he was a democracy activist in Algeria and had upset the Algerian regime. We know that in the Kim Dotcom case the Government Communications Security Bureau was acting on behalf of the US Government. The Obama administration, of course, is highly dependent on donations from Hollywood. Hollywood is very upset with Kim Dotcom and when Hollywood said: \u201CJump.\u201D, the Obama administration jumped; when Obama jumped, then the Government Communications Security Bureau jumped, because the bureau is part of the \u201CFive Eyes\u201D network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo we know that the targets for the security agencies tend to be groups of people whom parties of the right figure they are never going to be part of: lefties, progressives, greenies. So what would they care if they breached the freedom and the democratic rights and civil liberties of ordinary New Zealanders? Of course, those ordinary New Zealanders whose freedom and civil liberties the parties of the right like the National Party are happy to breach are people like anti-apartheid activists. Of course, we have a Prime Minister who cannot remember whether he was opposed to apartheid or not, but those people who were opposed to apartheid\u2014of course, the National Party was not opposed to apartheid; the Prime Minister just cannot remember whether he was or he was not opposed to apartheid\u2014were the targets of the security agencies. Those people who campaigned against apartheid were the very targets of the SIS and the Government Communications Security Bureau, and those are the people who in the future, given these new powers of the bureau, will once again be the target of these agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is very difficult for us to know what the agencies do. Only very rarely does it become clear what they are up to. The Aziz Choudry case is an exception and the Ahmed Zaoui case is an exception, as is the Kim Dotcom case. Mostly, we do not know what they do, because they operate in secrecy. But when it is revealed what they do, what we find is that their targets are progressives. That is whom they have targeted historically, and this is a bill to give them more power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EMr Shearer from the Labour Party made a very valid case for having an independent inquiry. I believe that not only do we need an inquiry into the illegal activities of the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2014an independent inquiry, of which there has been none\u2014but we need an inquiry as to what is the role of the security agencies. Remember, these were established during the Cold War. They kind of ran out of steam after the Cold War ended, and then they used the war on terror as a justification for what they were doing, and now they are trying to find new justifications, and cyber-attacks are part of it. There is no doubt that cyber-attacks are real\u2014no question about it. The question is this: what should be the role of these kinds of agencies in a free and democratic society, given that they involve fundamental intrusions into our freedom and civil liberties? That is why we need an independent inquiry that is broader than just the Kim Dotcom case and that goes into the role of the agencies themselves. If they are to exist, then we need to know why they exist. We need to know what kinds of limitations on our freedom and democracy we are willing to withstand or put up with by the very existence of these agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI think this thing goes to the issue of oversight. What we know is that in other jurisdictions there is some kind of parliamentary oversight of these agencies. There is no parliamentary oversight of these agencies here. The sole democratic oversight is John Key. John Key, as we have seen, has forgotten his role, amongst many other things. He has forgotten that his job is to protect our freedom and democracy from the intelligence agencies, and he has not performed that function. In other jurisdictions there is democratic oversight. When I have spoken to people who have been involved in the intelligence community over the years, what they have said is: \u201CThe thing we\u2019ve always feared in a United States framework was that the congressional committee would pull us up and we would be forced to give testimony to the congressional intelligence committee about what we\u2019d done, and if we\u2019d broken the law we\u2019d be put in jail.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere is no parliamentary capacity in the New Zealand system for the Intelligence and Security Committee to force any of the agencies to give testimony. They do not have to say a word to us. We have no ability to force them to tell us what they are doing. I am a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. We have no capacity to force the intelligence agencies to tell us whether they are acting lawfully or not. We have no capacity to force an intelligence officer to appear in front of the committee and tell us what they are doing. We have no capacity to inquire into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIf you think about it, the Intelligence and Security Committee is going to have to consider this legislation. It would be a bit like if the Social Services Committee had to consider legislation about Work and Income but it was not allowed to ask any questions about how Work and Income operates; it was not allowed to ask how the unemployment benefit is administered, or any of the other benefit systems; and it had to decide whether the legislation was good legislation or bad legislation, without knowing or being allowed to ask a single thing about how Work and Income operates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Intelligence and Security Committee that considers this legislation will have to make a decision about whether it supports the legislation or not, without ever being allowed to ask a single question about how the intelligence community actually works in New Zealand. Under the statute under which it is established, we do not have the right to do that. That is the level, the woeful level, of parliamentary oversight of the intelligence and security services in New Zealand. Is it any wonder that these agencies, which have been living under a stone for three or four decades with no public scrutiny, no sunlight ever exposed to them, went dysfunctional? Are any of us really surprised that a group of a few hundred people who never, never had any oversight became dysfunctional? The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security was a joke. There was never any oversight of what they did. They lived under a rock and they did what they liked. So at the end of it we found they were highly dysfunctional. That is what the Kitteridge report showed. Just in purely bureaucratic efficiency terms they were highly dysfunctional. We found they were operating unlawfully. Is anyone surprised, when there is no proper oversight of these agencies? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis bill does not put in place proper oversight of these agencies. There is still no democratic oversight. The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security should be an Officer of Parliament. The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security should report to Parliament as the Auditor-General does, or the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment does, or the Ombudsman does. That should be the role of oversight. The Intelligence and Security Committee should be a committee of Parliament that has the right to require the intelligence agencies to appear before it and the right to force information out of them. We do not have that right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo in the absence of an independent inquiry, in the absence of any parliamentary oversight, and given the record of the intelligence communities to target progressive activists, it is obscene that the parties of the right once again want to restrict our freedoms, want to breach our privacy, want to break into our houses, and want to give these intelligence agencies all these expanded powers. We cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022eba249937e40482cbca9c8bd765a2e58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eba249937e40482cbca9c8bd765a2e58\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to stand and speak on the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. Thank you for your attention, and for the remarks of the previous speaker, Russel Norman, who I am sure would be a great author of a conspiracy novel, because that is what his speech sounded like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWe need to understand that the safety and security of this nation is dependent upon organisations such as this, and we need to understand that they must have a strong, clear legal framework in which they operate. New Zealanders expect that. New Zealanders expect this Government to provide security and safety to its citizens, and it is important that we have agencies that can assist and do this in a way that is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe Government Communications Security Bureau Act 2003 sought to codify and make transparent existing practices of the then Government Communications Security Bureau. But under scrutiny, the 10-year-old Act potentially limits the bureau\u2019s ability to provide the support and advice that successive Governments expect and have expected, and possibly limits current support and advice that can be provided. So it is important and it is the responsible thing for this Government to do to move to clarify the Act. This bill will make the Government Communications Security Bureau Act clearer and more transparent so it is clear what the agency can and cannot do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe functions and resourcing of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, of his office, will be increased and improved. It will increase capability and enable the office to have increased scrutiny over the operations of this agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe Government Communications Security Bureau has a crucial role to play in protecting the security, safety, and best interests of New Zealand and New Zealanders. It is for this reason that this bill, after the compliance review by Rebecca Kitteridge, is progressing in order to bring those improvements, to bring the improvements of oversight mechanisms that apply to our intelligence community. I am very happy to support the progression of this bill in the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1504db360704f1ea14313486c0f89c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1504db360704f1ea14313486c0f89c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think the background to this legislation, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, is well known by most New Zealanders. It is a shameful background of neglect, of cover-up, and of failure to answer parliamentary questions, or a failure to front up to the media and tell people what happened and what went wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe are charged as a political party with writing a law that hopefully the mass majority of members of Parliament can support, in the interests of the national security and safety of New Zealanders in our role as participants in seeking to obtain a safer world internationally. The outcome New Zealand First seeks, therefore, is to create an effective watchdog that does not bite the people it seeks to protect. New Zealand First seeks specific safeguards in the legislation to ensure that the Government Communications Security Bureau does not operate outside the law. We have set these out: first, \u201CEach surveillance to be authorised by warrant by the responsible Minister\u201D; second, \u201CThe warrant to comply with specified criteria to identify the potential security risk\u201D; third, \u201CThe method of surveillance and the time frame of the operation\u201D; and, perhaps as important, every warrant from the time of its issue is to be made available to a group in which the country can have total trust and confidence so that it can review within 3 weeks that warrant\u2014that is, a review by an independent authority selected from the judiciary, the Defence Force, and the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe have written to the Prime Minister setting out the circumstances in which we as a party would seek to pass a law, not for political reasons but for reasons that I believe and we believe are the responsibility of any member of Parliament. New Zealand First\u2019s position on matters of security is clear and unambiguous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe first duty of any Government is to ensure the safety and protection of its people. We therefore must live in the real world. We cannot put our heads in the sand in a world of extremists and terrorists, and for one, the party that I belong to, New Zealand First, and my caucus colleagues are not going to be standing by so that one day there is mayhem and murder and extremist actions in this country and people point a finger at us and say: \u201CBut what did you seek to do about it?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIn short, we understand the real world, and parts of the real world are a very evil place. To ignore the threats posed by such groups would be irresponsible. Recent events graphically illustrate that terrorism can be home-grown, and it also does not respect international borders. New Zealanders, as we know, enjoy civil liberties that are not universally shared. These are precious, and men and women have in the past fought and died for them. As a nation we have always jealously guarded our freedoms, and view with suspicion any moves by the State to impose any sort of \u201CBig Brother is watching\u201D scenario. The outcome New Zealand First seeks, therefore, is to create an effective watchdog that does not offend or bite the people it seeks to protect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe have specific areas of the legislation we believe need addressing. For example, new section 8A in clause 6 of this bill refers to \u201Cany other entity authorised by the Minister,\u201D. That is far too wide and should be limited to those entities with accountable authority and specified in the legislation. New section 8A(c)(ii) refers to \u201Cany person or office holder\u201D. That is far too wide, is far too open to abuse, and is not susceptible to transparency and accountability. New section 8B(1)(c)(ii) refers to \u201Cany person or office holder\u201D. Again this is too wide. New section 8B(2), in clause 6, refers to \u201Cany public authority \u2026 and any other entity\u201D. These are phrases that are far too wide, and they would have appeared, surely, to the drafters as obviously not capable of being supported by responsible members of Parliament. New section 8C(1)(d), in clause 6, refers to \u201Cany department\u201D. This should include a schedule of departments. The subsection is not clear. New section 25(3)(d), in clause 24, refers to \u201Cany other person that the Director thinks fit\u201D. Where on earth would they have got such a catch-all, carry-all, include-all phrase if they seriously wanted members of Parliament to support this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAlthough New Zealand First agrees with the necessity to gather information and to share it with appropriate authorities, we believe there needs to be far clearer definition about this and also serious general oversight. We have suggested an independent committee to oversee the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s information-gathering activities. Where New Zealand citizens or residents are involved, we want this committee to be informed when a warrant is authorised, and the same committee must be given the power to review the situation within a period of 3 weeks. That is proper oversight. This provides a measure of safeguard to avoid unfounded fishing trips on New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe Government Communications Security Bureau is an important agency. I can tell from the correspondence and communications that a number of people are suspicious of this. Let me ask them what they would have done in circumstances in which terrorism could have been discovered before it happened. When were they going to take responsibility, or whom did they trust to take responsibility for that? We are not asking people to sign up to spying on our fellow citizens. But there are some people in our society, as in a lot of societies\u2014take the serious drug-trafficking in this country and on the borders of this country, which is surely a case in point\u2014who simply cannot be trusted. Their whole record shouts that, and we know it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe bureau must operate professionally to meet the challenges faced by New Zealand and our allies. New Zealand First has said\u2014and we have written to the Prime Minister today\u2014that we will assist the Government to meet these goals so long as our concerns are addressed in this legislation, because we will not support the idea of rubber-stamping the bill as it stands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI have heard some of the previous speakers from the Government side. Frankly, with respect, I do not think they know what they are talking about. I have been a Minister who twice in my career signed out on countless authorities or warrants because I had to, but I was seriously concerned at the time about the safeguards where there may have been some impact on New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d45f1a505074036aff91b209d536e34\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He was no rubber stamp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c734d498e50941219c438b20592e8311\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not rubber-stamp them. That is a fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc4685957194e1281098b9a98e02cd7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Read them, unlike Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a606d6fa1ed44d29d35f4f2673d0437\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I most certainly read them. But here is the point: we had a Prime Minister who, according to the head of the Government Communications Security Bureau at the time, Mr Ferguson, paid no attention at all to this most serious of all obligations. We consider that the Government should seek as wide a degree of cross-party support for this bill as possible. In short, this legislation surely has to be supported by enough of Parliament to ensure that it survives the next election, the one after that, and the one after that, if it is going to have any serious meaning in terms of the security of this country. That being the case, and because we have written to the Prime Minister, and the Government has preferred under urgency to press this bill, deficient as it is, at this point in time we oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00223b8495ec919f4d5bad17a3e3cfce34e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b8495ec919f4d5bad17a3e3cfce34e8\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E This House is considering the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill because it is important that we take security threats seriously and we ensure that the legislation under which agencies such as the Government Communications Security Bureau operate is sound, is robust, and is fit for purpose. There are some important changes in the bill that I suggest to the House should be supported by the whole Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI heard some comments from Mr Robertson and Mr Norman. Mr Robertson spent a lot of time talking about what New Zealanders deserve. I think New Zealanders deserve a Parliament that takes security matters seriously. We live in a changing security environment where threats are increasingly interconnected around the world. Globalisation means that New Zealand is not safe from threats. We need to have an agency there that is looking after us. Mr Robertson does not believe legislation like this, which improves the framework under which the bureau operates, is important. I think New Zealanders deserve to have changes made to the Government Communications Security Bureau Act so that they can have greater confidence in the bureau and so that they can have a bureau that has greater oversight by the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, and an inspector-general who has greater resources to provide that oversight. That is what New Zealanders deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders deserve to have a Parliament that takes seriously the review undertaken by Rebecca Kitteridge. Rebecca Kitteridge made some important recommendations and highlighted some difficulties with interpreting the Government Communications Security Bureau Act. What was the bureau doing when the difficulties she highlighted were pointed out? The bureau was simply assisting other agencies carrying out their work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EMr Norman talked about the parties of the right trying to clamp down on freedom. In fact, with this legislation, the parties of the right are providing greater oversight, greater transparency, and a clearer authority for the Government Communications Security Bureau to assist other agencies to do important work on behalf of New Zealanders. This bill will improve the bureau and other similar agencies that it interacts with, and it should be supported by this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf52b086cccd4bd7805b71e366e8e86e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf52b086cccd4bd7805b71e366e8e86e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with one thing at least that Jami-Lee Ross, the member who has just resumed his seat, said. This Parliament needs to take security agencies seriously. If only the Government would do so. We have seen a debacle, a farce, surrounding the Kim Dotcom affair. The Prime Minister cannot even remember whether he was briefed on Kim Dotcom. He did not know Kim Dotcom. He did not know about the guy\u2014the biggest guy in his electorate, who had the largest mansion in his electorate, and he had never heard of him. He had never been briefed by the Government Communications Security Bureau. But he had been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere was the appointment process of the director. The Prime Minister thought he could ring up a mate and say \u201CHow would you like this job? There won\u2019t be any competition. You\u2019ll be the only interviewee.\u201D and get away with it. He thought he could get away with not telling this House the full truth. The Prime Minister never admitted that he had breakfast with him on a number of occasions, never admitted that he was a good mate of his, and went about it in a way that the State Services Commissioner himself said was flawed. He used Yes, Minister language but what he was really saying was that the Prime Minister broke the protocols\u2014did it wrong. If anybody has undermined the confidence of New Zealanders in our security agencies, it is John Key, who is meant to be the Minister responsible for the security agencies and is meant to exercise the oversight, but time and again has failed to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI am one in this House who believes that the security agencies do need reform. They need reform in regard to their powers, so that they are 21st century powers and they are appropriate to the work they need to do. But, just as important, they need reform around the oversight of how these agencies, which act in secret\u2014act outside the public oversight\u2014can be checked and how it can be made sure that they are acting under the law and that they are acting properly. To do that, you need proper legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe also need legislation moved through this House in a way that would restore public confidence in the security agencies. TV3 ran a poll the other day. What did it show? A massive 40 percent of New Zealanders have no confidence in, do not trust, the Government Communications Security Bureau. You cannot operate in a democracy with security agencies that so lack the confidence of the public, whose needs they are meant to be serving. That is an indictment on the bureau. It is an indictment on how the Government has handled this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIf we do not get this legislation, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, right and if we do not do it in the right way\u2014build consensus, because you need consensus across the House on how these agencies should be run\u2014we will end up with the bureau damaged in the same way that the SIS was way back in the 1960s. You will remember the case where the SIS agent left his briefcase on the street in Wellington. It may have had secret documents in it, but more attention was given to the copy of Penthouse and the cold pie that he had in it. That made the SIS a laughing stock. We cannot afford for our security agencies to be a laughing stock. Unless we do this well, the Government Communications Security Bureau will be, just as the SIS was, a laughing stock that lacks public confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat I am saying to you is that if you are going to do this well, you do not do it in an ad hoc way; you do it comprehensively. We know that this House is expecting another piece of legislation, which the Government has tucked away in the wings, on the SIS\u2014so a separate piece of legislation on the SIS\u2014and this legislation, rushed into the House under urgency today, on the Government Communications Security Bureau. Who is going to have confidence in the outcome of legislation that is done in an ad hoc way? Who is going to have confidence in legislation unless there is a full and public inquiry into how our agencies are operating, what powers they need, and what safeguards there need to be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E Better than most people in this House, I have an understanding of how our security agencies work. As a foreign affairs and trade Minister and as a defence Minister, I worked with those agencies for 9 years. But I think the time has come to fully, comprehensively, and coherently reform those agencies. I do not think they do the job that we need them to do, I do not think they do it thoroughly and competently enough, and I do not think that the powers of oversight over how they carry out their functions are done properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe reason we have got this legislation is not that there are terrorist groups lurking in the wings. You can never rule out that you do not have nutcases like the Boston bombers who can operate in a country, but that is not, I think, something that is actually such a risk to New Zealand that we need to rush legislation through in an ad hoc way. I think there are more important questions to ask about cyber-security, about commercial interests and State interests outside of New Zealand that would like to break into our IT networks and use that information. Maybe the Government should be asking itself some questions about why, unlike Australia and the United States, it has accepted Huawei into New Zealand, when that in itself is regarded by two of the countries we work closely with as being a security risk. The Government will not talk about that, but that might be what it actually needs to be focusing on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYou know, we have this legislation to distract the public from the embarrassment that John Key feels about the debacle of the Kim Dotcom affair. The police went into that mansion with a combination of Rambo and the Keystone cops\u2014total overkill, unnecessary. That was bad enough. What was worse, according to Justice Winkelmann, is that they went in without a valid warrant to search the place or to break into the place, and that makes us as New Zealanders, and as taxpayers, liable possibly to tens of millions of dollars in damages if that is the way it goes. So we certainly need an inquiry into the Kim Dotcom case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe need to know why\u2014when they acted illegally, when the advice of Crown Law was inadequate, when the Ministry of Justice did not get it right, when the police did not get it right, and when the Government Communications Security Bureau did not get it right\u2014Bill English suppressed information that revealed those facts. Why did he cover it up? Is it credible that John Key, who is the Minister in charge of the security agencies and the Prime Minister, was never told about Bill English\u2019s once-in-a-lifetime warrant to suppress public information about the Government\u2019s illegal doings? He did not brief John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cac9de446404ee3b439d8476252fabb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Who believes that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e334369ae04c9fbc8680e2963bc0df\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Who believes that? I mean, either you have got a totally incompetent and disloyal deputy, or you have got a Prime Minister who is not telling the full truth. I will leave it to the public to make up their minds on that. We need a proper job to determine the powers and the oversight of the Government Communications Security Bureau. This bill does not do it, and this process is such that there will be no restoration of public confidence in those agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to look very quickly now, in my last minute and a half, at the oversight proposals in this bill. Rebecca Kitteridge, who is a very competent woman, I think got the direction right, but she did not go far enough and this bill does not go far enough. You need an Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security who is not in a retirement position. You need an active inspector-general\u2014more than that, you need a proactive inspector-general\u2014and you need that person to be backed by staffing and resources so that they can ensure compliance. We need to have a strong inspector-general, and that person, if they are not to be a retired judge, needs to have the confidence of both sides of this House. So in this bill there should be legislative provision that the appointment needs the concurrence of the Opposition, just as you do for the Governor-General, because that is how important the position is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYou also need changes to be made to the Intelligence and Security Committee. I served on that committee for 3 years. It is a farce. It does not do the job, because John Key does not let it do the job. It hardly ever meets, it does not get briefed properly, and it does not give anywhere near adequate reports to this House. It is an absolute conflict of interest that the Minister in charge of the Security Intelligence Service should be the chair of the committee having oversight into the Intelligence and Security Committee. He is the person who should be held to account. This bill says: \u201COh, put the Deputy Prime Minister in or the Attorney-General.\u201D That is not good enough. Maybe we should look at the Regulations Review Committee and, like that committee, have an Opposition member chairing the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00220a00beb1c29e49b1a2bf5afde5b83a75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a00beb1c29e49b1a2bf5afde5b83a75\u0022\u003ETODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E What an angry speech from an angry man. Mr Goff is a man who comes to this Parliament after continuing to leak to the media suppressed details from a coroner\u2019s report, a report that is still subject to a suppressions order, in an absolute disregard for legal process and the laws of this country. Then he has the audacity to come down here to this House and lecture us on what he views as being right and being wrong. You see, the problem that we have here is that Mr Goff has just questioned whether or not the Prime Minister received a briefing. What we have got to do is look at the year before last when he was Leader of the Opposition. Do you remember that he was the man who forgot he received a briefing from the SIS? And then he said he would not meet with the SIS again without somebody else there who was independent, because he forgot. So it is not just that he does not trust all intelligence services in New Zealand; it is that Mr Goff forgets sometimes but he will not own up to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, is a responsible piece of legislation on behalf of the Government and for this Parliament. It does a number of things. The first is that it looks at a service\u2014the intelligence community\u2014that has a vital role to play in our national security. Very clearly, the bill is to provide a clear and consistent legal framework for the Government Communications Security Bureau. It will also update the bureau\u2019s legal framework in response to a rapidly changing security environment. And the third thing it will do is strengthen the oversight regime that applies to our intelligence agencies\u2014something that everybody in this Parliament must surely want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOne of the challenges we have is that the Government Communications Security Bureau is arguably more important today than it has been for many a time. The reason for this is that cyber-security, and the way that security must be handled on behalf of nations around the world, has changed and continues to change rapidly. We need to continue to be able to have our services tackle a rapidly increasing threat. Very clearly, what will happen is that the Government Communications Security Bureau will continue to have three core functions: information assurance and cyber-security, foreign intelligence, and cooperation and assistance with other entities. This legislation will help Parliament look at that and make sure we are doing this work in the right way, and give the surety that New Zealanders need that the agencies are working in their best interests. I look forward to it passing through this House, and to further discussion. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2de59c1098441269753fc5b28b91e98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2de59c1098441269753fc5b28b91e98\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b51e9d6356964261a012bd5fe755c772\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b51e9d6356964261a012bd5fe755c772\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I think I would start my point by noting the fact that the Government decided to put up Todd McClay on intelligence legislation\u2014a contradiction in terms to start with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think most people are aware of the fact\u2014although some of the new members might not be\u2014that I have had a mixed history in this House to do with security legislation. I was arrested in the House opposing the 1977 legislation, and the core reason that I was opposing it, and why many, many New Zealanders marched on this Parliament, was because we did not think the Prime Minister of the day deserved the trust that was being given to him as part of that legislation. I think we have come full circle. I certainly trusted Jim Bolger with the legislation. Jenny Shipley I did not know well enough to know how she acted in this area. Helen Clark and David Lange certainly took this legislation very, very seriously across security areas. But times have changed. I have no doubt that we need changes in our security legislation, not only to do with this agency but also to do with the SIS. In fact, I have been part of consultations on changes to the SIS legislation, and it just seems to me unbelievable that the Prime Minister is trying to do a patch job on this bit of the legislation, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, without having a proper look across all of the agencies as to what needs to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAnd I will say something else. There are considerable infringements of personal liberties that flow from this legislation\u2014considerable. What this Parliament does when it is doing its work well is it comes together and works out what is fair and what is reasonable. I am just going to say this a little bit carefully to the people who I hope will be supporting a Labour Government later on: we do not always get everyone on board, but I think it is important, in order for legislation to be seen as reasonable, for it to be at least bipartisan. I think that that is a minimum for this sort of legislation, which infringes so badly on the liberties of individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think something else is important, and that is oversight. I want to say that there are two levels of oversight that I am worried about here. There is the oversight of the legislation\u2014and we will get back to that later on, as to which committee it is going to go to and for what period\u2014but there is also the question of the oversight of the agency itself. I think we should soon be at a point where we can have someone whom we trust to oversee it\u2014someone who cares about the governance, someone who gets regular briefings on matters that are important, and someone who does not appoint his boyhood friend as a director and does not suggest to him that he should apply for the job. We want to have a group in charge of this that is going to haul the director over the coals. It is important, when so many rights are being taken away, that the individuals who are making those decisions are properly accountable, and this legislation does not get anywhere near that at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThat is why, in my opinion, there needs to be a proper review\u2014a proper inquiry. I would suggest that it would be a good idea to involve people from offshore as well as from New Zealand\u2014Australia has done it twice in recent memory\u2014to have a really good look at our mosaic of security arrangements, because I do agree with the Prime Minister that they are out of date. The legislation is out of date. I think the pattern of arrangements is out of date. The fact that it appears that our information is sent almost automatically to the United States from this organisation is out of date. It has got to change, and this legislation does not do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u00227b8a50dad9674491903d30bccc6bb884\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b8a50dad9674491903d30bccc6bb884\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. The question has to be who makes New Zealand spying law, and whom it is for. Clearly, it is for John Key and his mates, but it is also, I suggest, for Echelon, the five-nations, USA-dominated spy agency that has its Government Communications Security Bureau arm run spy domes at Waihopai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThis week there are three different significant spy activities going on in New Zealand. The first is these new spy laws being fast tracked into Parliament instead of first having an independent inquiry into the Government Communications Security Bureau, its illegal spying on us Kiwis, and its functions. The second is the faux damages trial of the three penniless, dome-busting peace activists for $1.2 million for their costs for popping one of the Waihopai domes while trying to interrupt New Zealand\u2019s part in the bloodshed of innocents\u2014Government Communications Security Bureau material again. That really embarrassed New Zealand to its USA, UK, Australian, and Canadian spy mates, so today John Key has got a gift for them: this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe third is very disturbing as well, I think. Today the US Attorney General, Eric Holder, is in Auckland, New Zealand, for the five-nation meeting of Attorneys-General. That is a meeting of the US Attorney General; the Aussie Attorney-General; the New Zealand Attorney-General; the England, Wales, and Northern Ireland Attorney General; and the Canadian Attorney General\u2014the same group from Echelon. Also today they are holding a joint session with the FBI-instigated Strategic Alliance Group, comprising the same five nations\u2019 federal policing agencies: the FBI, the Australian Federal Police, the UK\u2019s Serious Organised Crime Agency, the New Zealand Police, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. So the five Echelon States have their Attorneys-General and policing agencies all here having a chat about, among other things, Kim Dotcom\u2019s Megaupload, and who knows what of the other 88 people illegally spied on by the Government Communications Security Bureau, which this bill intends to make legal in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EJohn Key must feel very, very smug at having a new spying law for his mates in town that can allow Echelon to spy on, effectively, anyone and have total access to all telecommunications and internet systems. A big focus will be on the USA-UK corporate masters\u2019 income protection, including their Hollywood mates, but it is a huge, huge loss for the civil liberties of Kiwis. New Zealand needs to break away from these alliances, which are set on protecting the USA-UK industrial military complex, and needs to show an independent, peace-loving example predicated on human and civil rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESo we have John Key and his hand-picked mate, Government Communications Security Bureau Director Ian Fletcher, spying on us New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI will give just a little reminder of where the Government Communications Security Bureau Act came from in 2003, when MPs repeatedly commented that there was nothing to worry about, because the bill expressly stated that New Zealanders could not be spied on. But we know of at least 88 now. In 2003 Tony Ryall said: \u201Cpeople who have quite a bent on conspiracy theories and seem to think that all the Government Communications Security Bureau ever does is listen on New Zealanders\u2019 telephone calls, which is, of course, expressly prohibited. The bureau is not allowed to listen in on New Zealanders.\u201D Peter Dunne also said he would listen to no concerns when the 2003 bill was passed. He said: \u201CThis is a good bill. I do not accept the criticism of those who speak against it, that somehow it means that information about people will be gathered improperly,\u201D. Well, Tony Ryall and Peter Dunne showed how clear it was to Parliament when it passed that bill that the bureau was not permitted to spy on New Zealanders. The law and the intent of the law were not confusing; the bureau just did not follow it. There is no justification for the expansion of powers other than that the bureau was breaking the law. It is not needed. The law is adequate. The Greens want an inquiry. We think the bill should be pulled, and we oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002250d4df55f875418da0936d5e79bc0d7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d4df55f875418da0936d5e79bc0d7a\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E The Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill is needed. The law is inadequate, and that is exactly why we are introducing this measure this afternoon. It is naive to suggest that this bill is simply about making life easier for the Prime Minister and his mates, or whatever the exact wording was that the previous speaker, Steffan Browning, used when he was on his feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that this is an ever-changing world. We know just with cyber-security how rapidly things change, and, as a result, it is important that we have clarity in our legal framework. Yes, there are some extensions in powers here, but that is because they are needed. Most New Zealanders understand why we are doing this and they are supportive of it. I have great pleasure in supporting the first reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e8f20f67caed48239bb3341e35dcbb0f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000436\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill be referred to the Intelligence and Security Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c4338f581d934777968a25f9069a558f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00226a45b5f18e2641b0a5f2a1c19bef0249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a45b5f18e2641b0a5f2a1c19bef0249\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister responsible for the GCSB: I move, That the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 26 July 2013, and that the Intelligence and Security Committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during an evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 188 and 191(1)(b) and (c). The Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill will go to the Intelligence and Security Committee for a shortened period because the difficulties of interpretation in the Government Communications Security Bureau Act need to be resolved in a timely manner. The compliance review by Ms Rebecca Kitteridge raised issues that need to be addressed. Until legislation is clarified, the Government Communications Security Bureau remains in the situation where it has put important activities on hold. This includes the vast bulk of its assistance to other agencies like the New Zealand Police and the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. Until the legislation is passed, the bureau\u2019s ability to help important private sector companies with the rising threat of cyber-attack is also unclear. This needs to be resolved. The public will have a chance to have its say, and rightly so, but for a reduced period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002272bd6faddde74d58a456de05e378f67b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272bd6faddde74d58a456de05e378f67b\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to oppose the motion that has been moved by the Minister of Justice. The 2-month period that is being suggested here is woefully inadequate to give members of the public the opportunity that they need to have a say on such significant legislation as the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. The Minister has just told the House that the lack of ability for the Government Communications Security Bureau to continue to assist other agencies is hamstringing it from important activities. Well, if timeliness is the issue here, we know that in at least July last year the Prime Minister knew that there were issues with unlawful spying, and then in September, according to statements the Prime Minister has made, the kinds of activities that are being talked about here were ceased. So if there is an urgency that requires only a 2-month period, why was legislation not introduced in September last year? In order to justify such a truncated select committee process, the Government needs to answer the question of how it is that when it has been aware of this since at least September\u2014actually, July last year, in the case of the Prime Minister\u2014it did not act at that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt has introduced legislation to the House today that has not been adequately scrutinised by anybody. It put that legislation in front of the House and asked for an exception to grant it only a 2-month select committee process. The gravity of the issues involved here in terms of personal privacy, in terms of human rights, and in terms of our national security is such that it is simply impossible that a 2-month committee process would be able to take that on board. I imagine many, many New Zealanders will want to make a submission to this bill, and to have only a 2-month period guarantees that the voice of a lot of New Zealanders will not be heard in the committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to speak too about the nature of this particular committee, the Intelligence and Security Committee, and its relationship to this truncated select committee process. This Intelligence and Security Committee is unique in our Parliament. It is constituted in a different way from all other select committees, to the point that members cannot be substituted on this committee. So in such a truncated period, will members of the committee actually all be available to hear submissions? I am not certain that they will, and there is no capacity to have a member substituted on. Can the Government guarantee in this House today that the Prime Minister will be present throughout the submission process? Can it guarantee that to the House? If it cannot, then New Zealanders are being denied their right to participate in discussion on this legislation in front of a full committee. Certainly, in terms of the Labour Party\u2019s representative on that committee, David Shearer, in this 2-month period\u2014it is a very, very busy period. We have just had the Prime Minister announce today that the Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti by-election will be held on 29 June. The National Party is not participating in that by-election, but this is a period of time that is extremely busy. It is a committee that operates in quite a different way from other committees in the House, and I do not think sending a piece of legislation to that committee for only 2 months is satisfactory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe know that there will now have to be submissions called for. That will be a very narrow window for people to put submissions in, and then a very, very narrow window for those submissions to be heard. There are issues that are raised in this legislation that may well be of a confidential nature. People who want to make submissions to the committee may well have issues that they need to raise that will be of a confidential nature. What processes are going to be set up to allow that to happen, to allow people to have an adequate say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe heard in the earlier debate both sides of this argument talk about the significance of what was being done here, that there were significant changes to the way in which the Government Communications Security Bureau would be acting, and yet the Government has put up a motion that says it needs only 2 months to do this. That is not consistent with what we know about when the Government was informed about unlawful spying. The urgency with which this is being put through simply does not match the process of events that took place last year\u2014and I will rehearse those again, because they are relevant to the question of how long this committee should have to assess this bill. If it is true that the Government Communications Security Bureau itself became aware in May last year of unlawful spying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3968ae166e4cfd93b7d5f6b09b065c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: February. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ccbc5dd259c463ea2d09caad1bbfce7\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: February, initially, that is right\u2014February initially, and then the bureau swept it under the carpet. Then in May it returned to the matter when the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security raised concerns. Then in July Ian Fletcher decided it was time to let the Prime Minister know about the unlawful spying, and nothing happened at that point. Nothing happened along the way there to say: \u201CThis is a hugely urgent matter\u2014we better get a bill in front of Parliament and rush it through.\u201D That did not happen. Then between July and September it appeared the Prime Minister was happy enough to see the Government Communications Security Bureau continue to operate under the existing law. He did not seem concerned about the information that he had been told about unlawful spying. But in September the game was up, because finally the bureau and the Prime Minister had to come clean about what had happened in the Kim Dotcom case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAt that point, if a bill had been introduced to this House and the Government had said we have to get this through quickly because we have got to make sure that the Government Communications Security Bureau can continue to do the work it has been doing on behalf of other agencies, that would have made some logical sense. But that did not happen. Nothing happened until today, when a bill was introduced to Parliament. The Minister stood up and moved a motion that said there needs to be only 2 months\u2019 worth of consideration by a committee that is restricted in the way that it operates. I simply do not believe that that is adequate for this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI believe that the people of New Zealand, when we are dealing with issues of such sensitivity, and when we are dealing with an agency with intrusive and significant powers and that operates in an opaque manner, deserve a proper process for this piece of legislation. I have not heard anything advanced today by the Government, most especially in the recent contribution by the Minister, that actually indicates why this urgency is required, because if it had been required, we would have seen legislation in September last year. The fact is that it is being referred to a committee that operates, as David Shearer has already said to the House today, in a way that I think is woefully inadequate in terms of parliamentary oversight, and that committee is then being given only 2 months to do its work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI believe strongly that this legislation deserves full scrutiny by this Parliament, and New Zealanders deserve an opportunity to make submissions and know that if they request to be heard by this committee, they will be heard. With a 2-month window it is simply not credible that all the New Zealanders who will want to be heard on this bill will be able to be heard on this bill. That is possible only with a full select committee process. The Labour Party is on record as saying that we need a full inquiry into the intelligence agencies. The severity of the change in this bill actually indicates that that inquiry is needed more than ever, but in the absence of the Government agreeing to that inquiry, this select committee process for this bill is the only opportunity that New Zealanders have to actually have their say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI think that the Government needs to think again about how it is treating these issues. These issues are about the balance in our society between the fundamental freedoms that New Zealanders expect\u2014the fact that they can go about their business without the intrusion of the State\u2014against our national security. Those are weighty matters. I accept the need in our society for these kinds of agencies, but without New Zealanders having confidence that the checks and balances are in place, we run the risk of totally undermining the confidence that New Zealanders have in our security and intelligence agency, which is at an all-time low now, I would suggest. Nothing that the Government is doing today will increase that confidence; it will simply decrease it. The idea that the Government is ramming through under urgency this first reading, and the idea that it is putting in place a truncated select committee process, simply fuels the view of many New Zealanders that this Government is trying to sweep under the carpet the problems, the debacle of the Government Communications Security Bureau, and the role of the Prime Minister in it. Democracy is not being served today by a truncated select committee process through a committee that does not operate properly. I urge the Government to reconsider this motion, and I oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022662c2925f62a48df8ea47e28a508d94c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022662c2925f62a48df8ea47e28a508d94c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I am surprised that no one from the Government is prepared to defend this rorting of the parliamentary process that is being attempted by Judith Collins and John Key today. We set up rules for the running of this Parliament. We set up rules for the running of it, and one of the great things about our democracy is that just about every piece of legislation is referred to a select committee\u2014a proper select committee of this House\u2014and the public have the right to come in, to have their say, and to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EYou will have noticed that on an earlier motion the Labour Party voted against this bill, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, going to the Intelligence and Security Committee. We did that because we thought that that was not the appropriate committee. It would be better to get it to a proper select committee, one in which the normal rules of Parliament work and where there is an opportunity for proper discussion and proper debate. In fact, I think that if the Government looks at this carefully, it could think about referring the bill from the Intelligence and Security Committee to the Government Administration Committee, or a similar committee, which works on the edge of these matters but has, I think, some independence to consider matters carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut even if the bill did get cross-referred to that committee, I would still be opposed to this shortened time. My view is that what we need is a period long enough for there to be a proper review. In fact, if there is an exception to be made to the normal Standing Orders of the House with regard to the length of time that this bill is at a committee, then consideration should be given to making an exemption to the 6-month maximum\u2014the normal maximum period\u2014that a bill is at a select committee, in order to ensure that a proper inquiry takes place, an inquiry with people who are experienced in intelligence matters, preferably someone from overseas, and preferably people who have been involved in the Australian arrangements. To do that, we know\u2014to do a proper job\u2014it cannot happen in 5 minutes or in the 10 weeks that John Key has decided that this committee will have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI also want to refer again to the busyness of this period. There is a by-election to be had. It is my expectation that our representative on the Intelligence and Security Committee, the leader of the Labour Party, will be actively involved in that by-election. It is not like it is a minor wee seat that sits in one of our metropolitan areas; it stretches from Wainui\u014Dmata around the top of the East Cape. It is an enormous seat, and it is our expectation that our leader will be out. I know that the National Party has run up the white flag as far as that by-election is concerned, and that that problem will not affect the Prime Minister in the same way because he will not have the expectation of being involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other not so minor matter that is occurring, I think, in another couple of weeks, around which there is going to be quite a lot of debate and quite a lot of business, is the Budget. I do accept that there are one or two engagements that follow the Budget that the Prime Minister takes\u2014about the same number as for the Leader of the Opposition\u2014but all of the party leaders and all of the people who are members of that committee will have quite a chunk of their time taken out around Budget matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWe know that by now the Budget is in bed. It is finished. Its proofs are probably being read at the moment. The Prime Minister\u2019s work in understanding the Budget is now finished. He will not be involved in that, because he will be right across it, like he was right across the paper boy tax last year and a number of other things that he missed. But for people who are not part of the Government, it takes a lot of time for them to get understanding of the Budget matters and the things that are within it, and that is time that will not be available. If the Intelligence and Security Committee is going to be meeting around that time\u2014the time immediately after the Budget\u2014again, that is time that is not available for the leaders of the other parties to be doing what is essentially what I would describe as their core work for June. Most of this period is in June. It is the biggest chunk of it and, post-Budget, the last week of May and the weeks of June are when that occurs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to just go back to a point that I made with regard to the legislation generally when I was talking about it, and that is the importance of consensus, wherever possible, around this sort of legislation. I think there should be consensus around the process. I reiterate what I said before that I do not expect total consensus as to the results. We have parties that have different views, and I do not think we will ever quite get there by way of agreement. But if we could have consensus around the process, and an acceptance that those views that might be described as outside the mainstream have an opportunity to be heard, and at the end of it there can be some bipartisan agreement to the legislation, then that means that New Zealanders are more likely to be happy or accepting of the result. I think, to be absolutely fair, most New Zealanders are not happy at the idea of video cameras in their bedrooms. I mean, most people do not want that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bd47df5302f442d814c8e7a1ab075aa\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: If they put them there themselves, Trevor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6b7a9525bf481a8d370a65a849e42f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The member might. We are talking about the ones that John Key puts in there and looks at. Most people\u2014most people\u2014are not happy with the idea of intrusions, video or audio, into the personal parts of their lives. But what we are doing here is for the first time granting the right not of the police, who are trying to stop a crime, but of an agency that feeds material to the United States and the United Kingdom to make video and other surveillance of Kiwis. Previously, it was not allowed to. There can be, with a judge, the right for the New Zealand Police to use that sort of approach. But if we are going to extend it, we need to make sure that a consensus can be built around it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other obvious point is very clear from listening to the Prime Minister about this. You know, I acknowledge that Clare Curran and Grant Robertson have both got their heads around some of this cyber-technical stuff much better than I have, but I know that I can understand it better than the Prime Minister. What we do need to know is that there is enough time at that committee for the proper briefings to build the Prime Minister\u2019s understanding of the technology in order to make sure that both the current technology and the stuff that is coming in are, one, properly covered, and, two, properly protected. It will take much longer than 10 weeks for the Prime Minister to understand that. It will take much longer than 10\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269f737a20098461d9b37ed6fbb8c5ad8\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll take years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f16a8c54f50041a787d527ffde959a92\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I disagree. I think if the Prime Minister focused on it, if he put his mind to it and if he worked hard at it, he could understand it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdee392b9a1849e0961b7e3c20a59996\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019d quite probably forget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222af9ce497f17463a92702f1f25d8bfbf\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, there is no chance of him remembering. All we are talking about is understanding for a short period of time so that the committee can make decisions. If he forgets after that, well, we understand that that happens with him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u0022305b998dc9ac4551be8fa8e7e1897985\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022305b998dc9ac4551be8fa8e7e1897985\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This very, very short time that has been mooted for reporting this Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill needs to be reviewed because this is a significant piece of law. It affects all New Zealanders. It affects New Zealanders in a range of ways. It can be in their individual lives. It can be in their membership of different organisations. It can be to do with their faiths. It can be in all sorts of ways that this bill will cover them. Those people need significant time to actually get a grasp of the enormity of this bill. They need to be informed on the way that it can affect them in their lives. They need to be able to get expert advice, if they so choose. They need to be able to draft submissions. They need to review those submissions, and they then need to submit and they need to have access to the Intelligence and Security Committee to speak to their submissions. We are talking about potentially everyone and anyone. Having only 2 months is definitely going to block out significant numbers of people, even though they may wish to submit to that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EIt was concerning to be reminded that no substitutes are able to be on that committee. Although it is in a way contrary to another call\u2014ensuring that this very small committee may basically struggle to have full attendance if the Prime Minister or other very busy members of Parliament are away\u2014I actually think it would be very, very good if we did have substitutes. Maybe that needs to be considered, because in this instance where we are considering whether we need more time, we need to reflect that the Prime Minister himself is absolutely culpable in the illegal spying that has pre-empted this bill. Fast tracking over a couple of months, to report by 26 July, will not cut it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThis is about civil liberties. New Zealanders, as I say, need time to engage with this bill. We need to give them the opportunity to find out about it, and we have to think about who is going to do that. We have got an organisation, the Government Communications Security Bureau, that is covered by the bill. We have the SIS implicated in it and also a number of departments. Are they going to be letting New Zealanders know about the significance of this bill and that they need to get involved and submit on it? There are a lot of questions about that, and certainly the time is not there in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI need to point out the types of organisations that could be affected. There is a March Against Monsanto shortly, to do with genetic engineering and pesticides and things like that. Those are the sorts of people who potentially would be spied on. They may want to submit and talk about the fairness that they should be covered by in terms of legislation. There are the Ploughshares people, whom I mentioned earlier, and civil society generally, and there are a lot of organisations involved there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThere are professionals and academics who will want to be involved. I note an Otago Daily Times article about some University of Otago professors talking about the national security State brought on by this bill. I am sure that they will want to make a submission. They point out the worrying implications for individual privacy, civil liberties, and national security that this proposal has. And that covers everyone\u2014that certainly covers everyone\u2014and everyone needs a full opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThey added: \u201CWe do not think this critical law should be changed without more extensive public discussion about its potential costs and benefits.\u201D So I think Professor Kevin Clements and Professor Richard Jackson from the university\u2019s National Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies raise a very, very important point. That point, if it is to be considered appropriately and if we are to extend it, would mean that we should be giving much, much, much more time for this bill to be put in front of a committee\u2014a committee that probably should not have John Key anywhere near it and certainly not voting on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThere have been at least 18 months of illegal spying. We have no inquiry. The nearest thing to an inquiry will be the submissions to the Intelligence and Security Committee. So surely the public could have at least 6 months\u2014a third of the time that illegal spying has been going on, which this bill is about. What we have got is 2 months, a ninth of the time of that illegal activity, which John Key knew about. This is the amount of time that the public will have to properly realise in respect of this bill, which has been thrust on them this week, that they can suddenly get into gear and get submissions in that would have enough import to potentially change the wording of this bill, and come to us as members of Parliament who might be able to assist, particularly those involved in that committee. They clearly have not got a chance of getting very, very far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI would just point out the functions of the bureau as such in the old law, which finishes in a way: \u201CThe performance of the Bureau\u2019s functions is subject to the control of the Minister.\u201D John Key and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb499c58660416aa273b7beb3597fdf\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No. Order! This debate\u2014if the member would sit while I am on my feet\u2014can deal only with why the report-back period is being truncated. There is Standing Order 286(3). So if the member would just come back to that. You have been fine up to now, but you cannot deviate and start talking about things of substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b62baa1a8040aca015df358ac50ddd\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, thank you. I have expressed a fair amount of it. I think there are those organisations that will want to come to the committee. As I mentioned earlier, there are the faith organisations. They are generally involved around these civil liberties issues of privacy. Business will be concerned as well, because of the levels that this bill can go to. So they will want to submit. The telecommunications companies\u2014and we know we have got another bill that will affect them too\u2014will want to be involved. I would expect that the departments that are included in the powers of this bill\u2014and a number of Government departments are given access to it\u2014would also want to be involved in how that is managed for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EEverybody will want, or should want, to be involved here, and the 2 months aspect of it may actually make some of them say: \u201CWell, this isn\u2019t worth it.\u201D, and that would be very, very disappointing. Maybe that is part of the point of it. So I wonder\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d652d9022089490fba56d50472deba49\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: What we are actually talking about is that the limited amount of time this Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill has before the committee is far from adequate. We certainly need an inquiry. The various groups that I was talking about before need a lot of preparation time. I have been able to check on some of that through the dinner hour. We know that this short period of time is not going to be adequate to explore the issues that this significant piece of legislation requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe Green Party would like to see an extension. We would like the Minister to reconsider the time frame that has been put up for this significant piece of legislation. We did point out that the illegal spying was going on for 18 months. I think that needs to be taken into account, to give as long as is legally possible for all the public who will be exposed to this law an opportunity to come back on it. The Green Party would like that to be taken into account, and hopefully the Minister will respond to it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002287f510828a714b27868439d48f1feff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287f510828a714b27868439d48f1feff0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E This motion has two elements to it; both are important. The first aspect of the motion is to truncate the process by which submissions can be made to the Intelligence and Security Committee. I want to come back and construct the argument around why this legislation, of all legislation, should be subject to a full and proper process of democratic consideration. The second aspect of the motion is to refer the legislation, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, to the Intelligence and Security Committee. I want to suggest to the House, and seek a response from the Minister of Justice, why that is not an appropriate committee to send this legislation. Those are the two aspects of the motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ELet me come back to the first one, which is the truncating of the period of time for submissions, because the Minister\u2019s motion states that this legislation needs to be referred back to the House on 26 July. It will not go through the full process of scrutiny. It will not allow people the normal time they would have to put their submissions together. It will not allow them the time that they would need to present those submissions. I would argue that it would not allow the committee to properly analyse the submissions that are made to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EFor as long as I have been in this House, I have seen changes in the process of Parliament that have actually strengthened democracy. That process was predominantly about sending all legislation to a select committee and making sure that people had the proper time to be able to present to the select committee. That is how we involve the New Zealand public in the scrutiny of legislation and give them confidence that as members of a democracy they will have their voices heard and they will be listened to. There is a particular reason why we need to reinforce public confidence in that process on this particular piece of legislation. That reason is that this is a particularly intrusive piece of legislation giving very strong State powers to interfere in the lives of people, to subject them to scrutiny, and to intercept their correspondence. It is something that would not normally be allowed in a free, liberal, and democratic country. There may be an argument specifically for why the intelligence agencies need these powers, but you therefore need to be very careful in terms of what powers you give them, and what scrutiny the exercise of those powers are subject to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe know at the moment because of a variety of reasons that the Government Communications Security Bureau has lost a huge amount of public confidence. In a TV3 poll 40 percent of people have said that they do not have trust in the Government Communications Security Bureau. I think that is bad. That is bad because we need an organisation of this nature, but because of its intrusive powers, we need to have public confidence that it is exercising its powers properly, that it is subject to proper scrutiny, and that the process of giving it those powers and the process of determining the oversight is subject in turn to the scrutiny of the public. They get this opportunity at the statutory committee, but the Government has made the decision in this motion to cut back the period of time that people have to have their voices heard. If ever there was a piece of legislation that you wanted to build public confidence in the process that you are operating so that the Government would get it right, it is this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe know that what the Government Communications Security Bureau does in its normal course of events is not subject to public scrutiny. We do not know how it operates, what it does\u2014or most people do not know. I know because I have worked with them, but most people do not know. They have a worry that for the first time this organisation is being given the power explicitly to spy on New Zealanders. You would think that the process by which we debated giving it this power would be subject to the strongest possible public scrutiny of the legislation itself, and that is not going to happen. We saw in the debate on the bill that the National Party got up and spoke for 1 minute or 2 minutes. It did not speak to any matter of substance and did not take the full call to properly debate in front of the public why this legislation was necessary. This motion itself is a motion that truncates the process of democracy, and no member of the Government is getting to their feet to defend why they are doing that. That is wrong. That is why we are opposing this motion. This is a process that should be particularly thorough and that should give the public the maximum import. If anything, they should have longer to do their submissions on this piece of legislation, but under this motion they have less. We are against the time frame that the Government has set, but equally we are against sending this bill to the Intelligence and Security Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c34d7ddcb5d4209952264d169b07361\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e62b6d31b64ae09b282fa6a4994b30\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I have sat on that committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e29e66503dff4d02b40153ba0865966c\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Standing Order 286(3) is quite specific and in reference to the debate on the question: \u201Cfor a motion under this Standing Order is restricted to the special powers or instruction set out in the motion. It may not extend to the principles \u2026 of the bill.\u201D, etc. The statutory committee motion has already been passed by the House. The motion that is under debate does not mention the specific statutory committee. The House has already dealt with that element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbac13a00f74f0586f22de93b4c3173\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The statutory committee that it is going to is relevant to the point of how much time that committee will have to hear the submissions. This has been commented on earlier in this debate, but it is a particularly important point and I want to reinforce it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ab134c9ffd43f3a32fd9a73a67f5ad\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will hear the member, but it must be pertinent to the truncation of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a5d9ac9f6fc4c0aa106745bd9b8e50c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is pertinent. Firstly, the statutory committee is a very small statutory committee. It has only six members. The second thing is that it is unique amongst committees, because you cannot substitute for those members. I am wondering how you are going to have the time on that committee in a truncated time period to hear the submissions when that committee has, for example, the Prime Minister, who is normally known to be a reasonably busy person, so he may not be available for the timing that committee needs to meet. It has the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition will be going up and down the country both talking on the Budget, which comes in the middle of the submission period, and campaigning in the by-election in Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti. So it is really difficult for the two key members of that committee to actually be able to be there so that the committee can hear from the submitters in the time frame that is given. If you look at the other members of the committee, you see that one is John Banks. Given the court case today, he might not be available at all, but we do not know that yet. The other person is Peter Dunne. He is the leader of a political party, and one suspects that he has a lot of things to do. The other is the Leader of the House and the Minister of something or other. He is going to be busy. It is pertinent to the question of timing. We have got a truncated period of time for the committee to consider submissions, and we have got members of the committee who will make it even harder for those submissions to be heard within that time frame. It is a real problem, it is a practical problem, and I do not think that the combination of those things will give adequate opportunity for the democratic process to be followed properly in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate the point. The timing that people have to participate in the statutory committee process is absolutely essential given the nature of the legislation and given the confidence-building period that the submissions should be involved in helping to develop, given the loss of confidence in the Government Communications Security Bureau. This is an important piece of legislation. The Government should be taking it seriously by taking calls in the debate. The failure of the Government in this debate to take calls will just reinforce the impression that members of the public have that this is designed to be a quick and dirty process. The Government has made up its mind. It does not actually want to hear the submissions on the legislation. It is limiting the time and it is making it really difficult, actually, even to put the committee together to hear those submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere was a really important opportunity in hearing the submissions on this legislation. It was to build an understanding about why certain powers should be given to the Government Communications Security Bureau and why strong powers should exist for oversight of that organisation. But if the public takes the message that the National Government is giving it tonight that it is not taking this process seriously, then the public will take the corresponding message from that that the Government is not interested in a process of democracy, that it is not interested in people having adequate time to prepare their submissions and have their submissions heard, and that what the public says actually will not count for anything anyway. This bill itself is wrong and the process is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002296da39f6ed0446b6a38fb01bb40edce3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296da39f6ed0446b6a38fb01bb40edce3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We in this House are the guardians of civil liberties for the people whom we represent. There is no one other than us who stands between inappropriate legislation and inappropriate legislation being passed and applying to the citizens of this country. Nowhere is it more important to look at the civil liberties of people than when it comes to legislation that gives to the State powers of intrusion into people\u2019s lives. When we do that, we are allowing the State more rights than we normally give to people to intrude into other people\u2019s lives, and we have got to be very careful that we guard those rights jealously. One of the most important protections that we have in any democracy is delay\u2014not undue delay, but appropriate time periods that allow the fourth estate, the media, and interest groups that might be getting their heads around the implications of policy changes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225870cb1a67074cd58218d00d782ee3e8\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Say it like you mean it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228734c34981a743a09c6ca3de05a613db\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, Jacqui Dean, I say it like I mean it. I would actually like you to take a call and say it like you understand it. That is the sort of inane interjection that we get from National members\u2014not debating the substance of an important issue, but saying: \u201CSay it like you mean it.\u201D I would say to Jacqui Dean that I actually do mean this\u2014I do mean this. I am quite happy to be one of the people who stake my reputation on appropriately protecting the civil liberties of our citizens from inappropriate State intrusion. I do mean that, Jacqui. I do not have to shout it to mean it, but I am willing to take a call and state what I believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ETime is important. The time for processes ought not to be unduly truncated in any democracy. It is especially important when you live in a jurisdiction that has only one House of Parliament. It has no Upper House to negotiate once legislation is passed by this House. There is no effective constitutional check on intrusions into civil liberties in New Zealand, except through this House of Parliament. I have not seen a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet on this bill, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. I do not know whether anyone else has had an opportunity to read the vet. I do not even know whether there is one. We have not heard any discussion of it today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234b8fd2ccd884318b5c3397dd63ae57e\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It was only tabled today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfc14008c2824b73ab0c33a68619570a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill was tabled only today. We have not had the opportunity on this side of the House to get our heads around the full implications of this bill. If we\u2014with all of the resources that are open to us and our ability to devote full-time attention to this\u2014have not been able to, what hope is there that members of civil society have properly been able to consider the implications of this legislation? That is why we allow ample time for submissions to be made, so that people can think through the implications of legislation that impact upon civil liberties, rather than rushing it through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EParliament views that so seriously that it recently introduced a change to the Standing Orders so that we can have this very debate. Until a few years ago, we would not be having this debate as to the inappropriate truncation of select committee procedures. It was through a change to the Standing Orders, which was agreed across all sides of Parliament, that we changed the Standing Orders through the introduction of this Standing Order 286, which is why we are debating this motion. It provides that where truncation of the select committee process is shortened by an inordinate degree, we should debate whether that is proper. That is to enable us to highlight to the public how inappropriate it is that in a unicameral system with only one\u2014one\u2014House of Representatives, with no Upper House acting as a check on our conduct, it is appropriate that we properly protect our citizens from inappropriate intrusions by the State through proper scrutiny of proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow we are going to have this rushed process. The Hon Phil Goff has already said how difficult that is, given the make-up of this committee, the Intelligence and Security Committee. This committee, according to what the Hon Phil Goff says\u2014and I did not know this, actually, Phil\u2014can never have substitutes. The committee can never have substitutes. Remember we have the Prime Minister sitting on it hearing submissions, and the Leader of the Opposition, and representatives from other parties, all of whom are very senior, very busy, with lots of other obligations, and the idea that they can do justice to this within that time frame is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut the idea that they will have the submissions before them is also wrong, given the truncated process. A lot of the organisations that are submitting on legislation like this are effectively volunteers in that process. They are not doing it because they are being paid to do it; they have been doing it because they think there is a public interest in submitting or that they have got some knowledge that Parliament could benefit from hearing. They cannot drop their ordinary lives. Sometimes they are accountable to committee structures that meet only once a month. How do they get this information out to their members, form a view, and then submit to the committee within the time period that Parliament, because of what the National Government is doing today, is imposing upon them? They cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis is another reason why the normal rule is that you have a longer period of consideration by the committee, which then enables the committee to give a fair notice through public notices to all and sundry through the country. It enables people to get up campaigns though the media in the fourth estate and all of the little committees that might be interested in this in civil society, whether they are members of councils for civil liberties or whether they are Rural Women or whatever. There will be lots of people who are interested in these issues, but they do not have time, because of a truncated select committee process, to be given sufficient time to submit to the committee to give a considered view of what the implications of this legislation are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn the Labour Party we accept that the Government Communications Security Bureau needs powers. We also accept that it is appropriate for the State to have powers of intrusion in respect of New Zealanders. We are not sure what the arguments are for and against\u2014the issue as to whether the Government Communications Security Bureau should be given powers in respect of the surveillance of New Zealand citizens that could not already be done through the likes of the police. These arguments are very, very important. They need to be explored at the committee. Why is it that we cannot just rely upon the police to use their warranted powers, rather than giving the Government Communications Security Bureau the powers to spy upon New Zealanders? There are, no doubt, arguments on both sides of that debate. We want to hear them\u2014we want to hear them properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe fact that this has been a live issue for the Prime Minister since the middle of last year is already a matter of public record. We know that the Government Communications Security Bureau warned the Prime Minister that there were doubts about the legality of some of the bureau\u2019s conduct arising out of the Dotcom fiasco\u2014which it has to be called\u2014in the middle of last year. So since the middle of last year the Prime Minister has known that there is an issue, or that there may be an issue, at large. Here we are, just about a year later, and what does the Government do? Having mucked around for all of that time, having obfuscated and having all these faded memories as to what was said where and when, we now are told that we have got no time for a normal select committee process to consider whether the civil liberties of New Zealanders are inappropriately infringed by this legislation. The Government now says\u2014having delayed all that time, the best part of a year\u2014it has now got to truncate the only part of the process that the public can be involved in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EHow cynical is that? How inappropriate is that? How unprincipled is that? You look at how long we took for the search and surveillance legislation. A good process was run around that. It actually took over a year. It is important to get these things right. There are civil liberties at stake. There are high principles that go back for ever. You know, you do not have to think too far back to think when we have had Governments in New Zealand that have gone a wee bit towards the totalitarian fringes. It happened in New Zealand under Mr Muldoon\u2014it did. The courts pushed back against that. You have got to think of this legislation long into the future, when you may have a Government that is not as benign as the Governments we have now or have recently had. These principles are important. These principles are meant to be protected by the Standing Orders. This motion should not be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002240d811d3345a483fbd96fa7e2d561ed2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240d811d3345a483fbd96fa7e2d561ed2\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. I rise to take a brief call on the instruction on the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. As members are well aware, but maybe people watching and trying to learn about our democracy and Parliament might not be aware, under Standing Order 286 when a Government Minister instructs that a bill must be reported back from a select committee in less than the traditional time, it allows Parliament to debate for an unlimited amount of time this instruction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing is this Government giving this legislation only 2 months\u2014only 2 months\u2014to be reported back to this House. Remember, this is legislation that only recently was given to the Opposition. It is legislation that had no New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet. It is legislation that is being introduced in urgency, and it is important that the Opposition has a say. This is, in fact, the only protection our country, our democracy, has when the Government abuses, I believe, the system needlessly for a bill such as this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe have not seen a bill pass with the unanimity of this House. We have seen a bill pass its first reading by the smallest of margins\u201461 votes to 59. We see a bill being passed under accusations by the New Zealand First Party of bully-boy tactics. We see a bill entering this House under urgency, with a constrained, shortened select committee period. Select committees are vitally important to our democracy. That is where the real work is done. That is where I wish more people would actually watch and tune into the work that MPs across all the party lines do, because people would see MPs work collaboratively. They would see MPs not always butting heads, as they do inside this Chamber. They would see legislation actually improved. You see experts, the public, and interested parties get a say, and that is not what we are going to see with this important bill, which deals with issues of security, issues of spying, issues of surveillance, and issues of civil liberties and human rights. I think the Hon David Parker quite aptly explained why select committees are so important in our unicameral parliamentary system, where there are so few constraints on executive power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe have seen no arguments, I believe, from the Government benches. In fact, no National members\u2014I see, what, about eight in the Chamber today\u2014have stood up and been prepared to take a call to explain why this bill is going to be reduced to having only a 2-month period at a select committee instead of the traditional period. We have seen some waffly claims, which I think most New Zealanders do not take particularly seriously, of potential nuclear weapons information acquisition through New Zealand. We have seen some claims of cyber-attacks. The Green Party takes these allegations seriously. We take the security of our country seriously. Obviously, we do not support, or in any way want to be seen to support, those who use, in the name of political goals, violence such as, obviously, what is in the definition of terrorism used by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe take these issues seriously, and that is why we do not think the Government has gone about it the right way. If the Government was concerned about an imminent or urgent threat to our country\u2019s security, it would have gone about this bill in an entirely different way. It would have convened a meeting of the parties. It would have done it in a much different way, as we have seen in our country\u2019s history over the decades and centuries. But, instead, what we see is politics being played. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EAs Steffan Browning said, we have got the US Attorney General and representatives of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in New Zealand, and representatives of other spying partners, of which New Zealand is one of five members\u2014the little finger of the fist, some people call it. Mr Browning, quite rightfully, I think, posed the question as to whether we are seeing this bill introduced under urgency today to send a message to the US that New Zealand takes its concerns seriously\u2014that New Zealand will do whatever it can if Washington beckons. We have seen it with Dotcom. We have seen it even with copyright legislation, where the WikiLeaks cables have shown that the US Government asked New Zealand to jump, and the National Government said: \u201CHow high?\u201D. This is why it is abhorrent, and I believe egregious, that legislation containing such important issues, with such significant ramifications for our country and for our human rights and civil liberties, is getting such a constrained select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat we know is that 80-plus New Zealanders have likely been unlawfully spied upon over 18 months, and I think this is a crucial thing when we are putting the context of a 2-month report-back period. Over 18 months we have seen potentially unlawful spying on Mr Dotcom, and on other New Zealanders, potentially, over a longer time. For 18 months we could have sorted out and dealt with this issue, but instead the Government wants, through urgency and through a constrained select committee process, to rush the issue. That is not how good legislation is made. That is not how good, enduring political consensus is made. Despite a multiplicity of views in this House\u2014which is only right in a mixed-member proportional system; obviously, we are not agreeing with the Labour Party on everything and we obviously do not agree with the National Party on everything\u2014we should have a more considered, deliberative time to go through and get this stuff right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe should have had an inquiry, and this is why the Green Party has been calling for that. A constrained 2-month period at a committee will not cut the mustard. It is nowhere near an inquiry, but this is the closest thing our country is going to get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo I urge a National member, if they stand behind the decision of the Minister responsible for the GCSB, to take a call and defend your arguments. Put your arguments so that the people of our fine country can hear them. But, no, we see members shaking their heads. We are not going to see a National member taking a call, but I urge them to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI guess it is not a good day to be a National member, is it? We have got the Prime Minister talking only about Aaron Gilmore\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224085c1d456534c95ada652ef93c84882\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member is outside the scope of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b3b34575d44faa8e4f68e4c5f7ded7\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Good call, Mr Deputy Speaker. I acknowledge the call. I think it is bad process that we are seeing today. It is not a good day to be a National member. But, look, if those members are going to take decisions like this to rush bills through in urgency, and if they are going make a decision to put the bill through only a 2-month report-back period, stand up and defend it. Put your words in the Hansard if you defend it. I challenge a National MP to put your words on the record of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f501e46c828f4662aa8db25e2dd299a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f501e46c828f4662aa8db25e2dd299a7\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00223e1008e04e534c8f9f590ae7d211adae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e1008e04e534c8f9f590ae7d211adae\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Simpson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe4f126f6bc54a718e432e5cb3361c19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe4f126f6bc54a718e432e5cb3361c19\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CHipkins\u201D, I believe, is the word you were looking for then, Mr Deputy Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227af2edc92daa445ca25804f7d3dab25d\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I do apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb66e7c265142749b05c5142f029dc7\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I will forgive you. I will forgive you. I am mortally wounded! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are two procedural aspects to this debate, which are kind of new for the House because of the changes to the Standing Orders that were made by the Standing Orders Committee of the last Parliament. One is that we are debating this matter under urgency\u2014and I will deal with that one in a minute\u2014but the second is that in what has now become a relatively rare occurrence, we are debating a referral motion that gives the committee a shortened time frame and a whole lot of additional powers. It was standard practice in the House that Ministers, for quite a long period of time, would be able to move all sorts of additional powers for the committee in their referral motions. There would be no debate on those; it was just standard practice. It would happen all the time. The Standing Orders Committee considered that issue, along with a range of other potential amendments to the Standing Orders, when the Standing Orders were reviewed at the end of the last Parliament. This new provision, which has been enacted now and which allows this motion to be debatable, was part of a whole package of amendments made to the Standing Orders and it was part of the trade-offs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E The changes to the Standing Orders made by the last Parliament actually gave the Government a number of additional powers to expedite business before the Government, without the need to do the sort of thing it is doing within this referral motion. It gives the Government powers to use extended sittings, for example, so that it does not have to use urgency so much. We are considering this under urgency, which in itself is unnecessary because there are a whole lot of additional ways that the Government could gain the additional time it needs in the House to consider this matter without having to resort to urgency. We are debating a much-reduced time frame for the bill, and I think it is a good advance that these motions are now debated and therefore have become much more rare in their occurrence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe question that the House has to turn itself to in these sorts of debates is whether the justification for shortening the time frame is sufficient. I want to talk through a little bit about the process of what happens to the bill from here. There are certain time lags within the process when the bill gets referred to a committee that draw into question whether the bill could be adequately considered within the 8 weeks that we have given in this House. I would hope that the committee that this bill is referred to will advertise and call for public submissions. In order to do that they have to have a meeting. The committee comprises the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, among others. Therefore, getting them together to have the first meeting in order to call for submissions will probably take a little bit of time, and, if we pass it today, it may not even happen this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister traditionally is not in the House on Thursdays. I do not think I am supposed to say that, but on Thursdays we do not necessarily expect the party leaders to be here and therefore they may not be here tomorrow. So the meeting may not happen this week, and it might not happen until next week. At that point there is then a process to lodge the advertisement with the newspapers. That normally takes a couple of days, by the time the advertisement actually makes it into the paper. You have then got to give people a reasonable amount of time to read the advertisement and prepare their submission. So the question then becomes, well, who are the sorts of people who are going to be interested in making a submission on this? It will be civil liberties groups, lawyers, people with expertise in this particular area, and they will also typically be quite busy people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI would imagine, given the subject nature, that there will be members of the fourth estate, of the media, who are going to be very interested in the extension of powers to the Government Communications Security Bureau and they may also want to make submissions. The fact is that the bureau\u2019s powers have been used against the media by the current Government over the teapot tapes, so the media are going to have an interest in an extension of the bureau\u2019s powers and are likely to want to make a submission. We need to allow sufficient time for them to consider the nature of the bill, the contents of the bill, and make informed and educated decisions around what sort of input they want to have into that process, and the time frame that we are allowing does not do that. It is another attack on the freedom of the press. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis bill is another attack on the freedom of the press, because we know that the Government we have now is very happy to use the bureau\u2019s powers to attack the media, and therefore we have to make sure, because the media are a very important safeguard in our democratic process, that they are given sufficient time and opportunity to make submissions and to have their voices heard in this process. The truncated time frame simply does not allow that to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo, why the urgency? Why are we even trying\u2014it is not \u201Cwe\u201D, because the Opposition is firmly opposed to the shortened time frame\u2014why is the Government even trying to push this bill through with such haste? Given that it has known about these activities that this bill relates to for over a year, why is it that all of a sudden now the whole thing has to be fixed within 8 weeks? It is completely unnecessary. In fact, what the Labour Party has said is that the process should be a longer one and a much more extensive one\u2014one that considers the wide-ranging ramifications of the concerns around the way the Government Communications Security Bureau is operated, and pushing this through simply thwarts what should be a very constructive debate around how the bureau uses its powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ELet us be very clear about the nature of the bill that the Government is trying to push through. It is around illegal activity by the Government spy agency spying on New Zealanders, and it seeks to make that legal. I have mentioned in my speech so far some of the organisations that may be interested in making a submission on this bill, such as civil liberties groups, lawyers, and the media. But actually, this being the people\u2019s House, any New Zealander should have the right to be able to consider this legislation and make a submission on it. The bill gives the Government Communications Security Bureau the power to spy on any New Zealander. Any mum or dad, as John Key refers to them, could be spied on by the Government under this legislation. Will they have an opportunity to make a submission on this bill within the time frame that is proposed? I do not think that the Government is doing anything more than paying lip-service to the democratic process, because in fact if the Government was genuinely committed to providing an opportunity for people to make their submissions and to have a say, it would not be trying to push this through in 8 weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe regular time frame for a select committee consideration is somewhere between 4 to 6 months, so the default setting really is about 6 months. There is another provision, and it is non-debatable. This debate would not happen if it was 4 months or longer. So the Government can shorten it by 2 months without having to have the debate. But there is another way that the Government could shorten the time frame for the committee, and that is to take a recommendation to the Business Committee, which is comprised of all of the parties in the House, and get agreement on a shortened time frame. Even if a shortened time frame was deemed to be desirable and it was deemed to be desirable across the House\u2014so it was not being done for political purposes, but there was some genuine need for urgency\u2014there is a provision in there for this whole debate to be avoided. The Business Committee could agree to a shortened time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe records of the Business Committee\u2014[Interruption] No, the records of the Business Committee will record that no such proposal has been received. The minutes of the Business Committee, I think, are public\u2014certainly the determinations of the Business Committee are public\u2014and no such proposal was received. The Government did not even attempt to gain cross-party agreement for this shortened time frame. So that is a matter of concern, because what it means is that the Government is using a wafer-thin majority in the House\u2014a wafer-thin majority in the House, and getting thinner by the day\u2014to try to push through legislation that is incredibly controversial, that gives the Government Communications Security Bureau the power to spy on New Zealanders, and dramatically reduces the opportunity for the people who will be the subjects of this legislation, i.e. every single New Zealand citizen and resident\u2014very important, and resident\u2014to fully participate in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThat is fundamentally wrong. This bill should go through a full regular select committee process, but in fact even that is premature because what should happen first is there should be a full review into how we got to this position so that the New Zealand public can have confidence that this Government is protecting their rights to privacy, among other things. This bill does not do that. It is in fact a violation of that principle, and the process around passing it is a further violation of our democratic principles in this House. It is an affront to our democratic process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00222d1752d8a15c4af49060f10328faf5ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d1752d8a15c4af49060f10328faf5ac\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b245940151af4c3baba1e2772e8f0b99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b245940151af4c3baba1e2772e8f0b99\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We did get some new material then, so I will hear Denis O\u2019Rourke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00221ada4caf92594fad838531bcf3ac4b8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ada4caf92594fad838531bcf3ac4b8f\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First opposes the time frame proposed in the motion. We think 2 months is ridiculously short. The essential issue, of course, is whether the Government really has any genuine interest in the views of the public and in the contributions that might be made by special-interest groups. There are likely to be many of them on this particular bill, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe shortness of the time frame indicates to me and, I think, to many others that the Government has in fact prejudged the issues in this bill, and that it is not interested at all in what the public has to say. Nor is the Government interested in getting quality submissions, because quality submissions from the public do take time. Hurried submissions are likely to be less considered and less comprehensive. So what are we really achieving by having such a constricted time frame? What we are achieving is less quality, and a less properly considered bill by the public. The public does have a right to participate properly in these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIt is a shame that that is the case, because much can be learnt from the public and from special-interest groups. Many bills, as we all know, are altered as a result of well-considered public submissions. We have to acknowledge that we members of Parliament, the Government, and the officials do not always know everything about these issues, and certainly do not always get them right. In fact, the history of this legislation shows that past Governments and officials got it wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI have studied the bill and have seen in it several important issues that I will wish to consider much further. And, of course, as Winston Peters said earlier today, New Zealand First has already written to the Prime Minister seeking a whole raft of changes. If that is the case with us, it is likely also to be the case with special-interest groups especially, and with very large numbers of members of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThis is not a simple bill. It is complex; even the most cursory reading will demonstrate that. There are many options possible within its provisions, especially, I suggest, those regarding oversight and supervision issues. These matters take time to understand and they take time to consider. It takes time to look at other possible options, and it takes time to write all of that down and submit it through the process. Time is needed for proper consideration, and that is what the time frame in this motion is, I think, quite deliberately avoiding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Government is, in fact, treating the public with contempt, for that reason, by not giving adequate time for submissions. It knows that it is doing that, and it is doing it quite deliberately. The public needs to know the contempt in which it is being held in this way. Firstly, in the context of matters of high public interest\u2014and there have been few issues of higher public interest in recent times\u2014secondly, in the context of matters of high importance to our freedoms and democracy, which this unarguably involves, and, thirdly, in the context of the significant complexity that I have mentioned with regard to this particular bill, the lack of an adequate time frame is a sad indictment on a Government that is obviously just trying to put an awkward situation behind it. Well, that is not a good enough reason to treat the public in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EJust as disappointing to me has been the lack of argument by Government members opposite. I have waited to hear from them. I have waited to hear good reasons why this motion proposes such a ridiculously short time frame, but nothing has been offered. That proves, I think, the points that I have been making. So for all of those reasons that I and others have stated, New Zealand First will certainly oppose the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00221473075524e64991b60d38bcd6849694\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221473075524e64991b60d38bcd6849694\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022adc31a1d3c6d49cea906fd1038172f0c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222a8e0942093c4538b15e7b09edd58ea7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill be reported back to the House by 26 July 2013, and that the Intelligence and Security Committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during an evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 188 and 191(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f193d77c9fb461aa2fd1d25de191867\u0022\u003ETelecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022733a28c9834b4f6cb3e4c09ca70fa206\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00224a97849089e648f08e332fe62b09e5fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a97849089e648f08e332fe62b09e5fd\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance, and I apologise to the Minister for Communications and Information Technology. I have checked with the Bills Office, and there appears to be no regulatory impact statement available for the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill. It is noted in the explanatory note of the bill as having been created. I seek your guidance for us as members of Parliament unable to access that regulatory impact statement when we are debating the bill. It seems to me to be something that members of Parliament should have access to; we certainly did for the last bill. I seek your guidance as to how that works for us and what process there is available to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1bdf55bc9844b4997b6f60115405235\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1bdf55bc9844b4997b6f60115405235\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is no requirement that I am aware of under Standing Orders. It is an advised and an accepted practice. It is up to the Minister. I think the member has made a valid point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d11d78790d204654ab72a3a1736a6969\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022108aa6a7784243f7b32cfc7312ca882f\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have already ruled. Are you seeking the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd56ac3533f466bbb0ef8d624a8cb76\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I wished to cover why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022246dd5bded474650b1a65c75a3c0c224\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can do that in your speech, if you like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00228ed35235a1e84d9dac6a69091624b591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ed35235a1e84d9dac6a69091624b591\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for Communications and Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill be considered by the Law and Order Committee and that the committee present its final report on or before 20 September 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe telecommunications sector has been evolving rapidly in recent years, with the development of faster, smarter, and globally reaching technologies, networks, and services. The change has been accompanied by a fragmenting industry structure and the proliferation of new entrants in the telecommunications industry. Our legislation needs to keep pace with these changes and be flexible to accommodate continued change in the coming years. With the increasing day-to-day reliance on the internet and information communications technology by the Government, businesses, and individuals, a secure telecommunications infrastructure is essential to protect New Zealand\u2019s national security interests, including our economic well-being. The ability for the Government to appropriately use telecommunications capabilities is also important in the fight against crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis bill has two main parts. Firstly, the bill will repeal and replace the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act 2004, updating existing obligations on network operators to invest in specialised equipment and expertise to enable lawful interception. Secondly, the bill will introduce a formal framework to ensure the security of our telecommunications networks through partnership between the Government and network operators where there may be a risk to New Zealand\u2019s national security or economic well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ELawful interception relates to the ability of New Zealand Government agencies to intercept private telecommunications where they have the lawful authority to do so. The bill is about the obligations on the telecommunications companies and their relationships with surveillance agencies. It will not in any way alter the authority of police or intelligence and security agencies to intercept telecommunications, nor will it reduce the checks and balances on how these agencies can access and use private communications information. These matters are dealt with under separate legislation that must be complied with before the regime under this legislation can be utilised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EToday, interception of telecommunications plays a vital role in investigating, disrupting, and prosecuting serious crime, detecting and prosecuting international and domestic cyber-crime, combating threats to national security, and responding to emergencies like kidnappings. Surveillance agencies rely heavily on the cooperation and compliance of telecommunications companies for interception. This bill aims to make the interception capability obligations on industry more proportionate and remove the need for unnecessary expenditure. This will be done by removing or reducing obligations in areas where they are unnecessary for operational reasons, they are duplicated, or they are disproportionately expensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ETo ensure flexibility and responsiveness, the bill provides that other telecommunications providers can be deemed to have interception capability obligations, noting that all network operators and service providers will retain their current obligation to assist with interception warrants regardless. These provisions will be exercised through a ministerial direction and can be used only when more onerous obligations are justified for reasons of law enforcement or national security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes other changes such as specifying the international standard to be adhered to when formatting intercepted material for delivery to the surveillance agencies, providing a speedier process for exemptions, clarifying the obligations under the duty to assist and stating clearly that these include help with decryption and that the duty applies to both domestic and offshore providers, and allowing network operators to share specialised equipment and staff. These changes will make a significant positive difference for network operators. Their obligations will be clearer and more easily varied when appropriate, and the costs of complying will be more proportionate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe Government already works closely with telecommunications providers to address national security risks relating to the design, build, and operation of telecommunications infrastructure. It is timely that this arrangement be formalised to take account of the rapid changes in technology, changes in industry structure, the entry of new and specialist providers, and our ever-increasing reliance on the internet and information and communications technology and its security to conduct our lives. The security of telecommunications networks are critical if we are to prevent the unauthorised ability to access, copy, or divert data, and prevent espionage or the disruption of critical services we all take for granted\u2014for example, in our banking and energy services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe bill will introduce provisions that will mean network operators will be obliged to engage with the Government through the Government Communications Security Bureau on network security, where it might affect New Zealand\u2019s national security or economic well-being. The bill gives network operators direction on when to notify the Government Communications Security Bureau, and about what. It puts obligations on both the network operator and the bureau to notify each other as soon as they become aware of network security risks or potential risks. It provides a step-by-step process for addressing those risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThese provisions are about formalising the existing relationship and the existing partnership approach based on principles of working cooperatively and collaboratively with each other and agreeing on decisions and actions that are effective and proportionate to the risk. In rare circumstances where agreements cannot be reached, there is provision for a ministerial direction. This direction will be issued only after taking into account submissions by both the Government Communications Security Bureau and the network operator and after consulting with other relevant Ministers, and only where a significant national security risk is evident. The direction may require the network operator to refrain from a particular course of action, to undertake a specific activity, or to make a specific change to the design, build, or operation of their network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe lawful interception and network security regimes are both underpinned by a shared compliance and enforcement framework. A register of network operators will be established, with network operators being required to register details, including the size of the customer base and services provided. Surveillance agencies will be given the power to request information from network operators relevant to their obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ENetwork operators can be asked to participate in compliance testing for interception capability and their chief executives can be required to certify that they are compliant with the legislation. The new two-tiered enforcement regime for non-compliance distinguishes between minor non-compliance and serious non-compliance. Minor non-compliance will be dealt with by way of a notice requiring that the breach be remedied within a specified period of time. Serious non-compliance will be dealt with through the High Court, as is currently the case in existing legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThese changes to the current legislation are necessary to modernise existing interception capability requirements and to establish a formal and transparent framework for network security. The provisions in this bill will ensure that New Zealand\u2019s telecommunications providers have a clear understanding of how to meet their interception obligations and will safeguard our telecommunications infrastructure. The bill will provide greater certainty and transparency for the telecommunications industry and the New Zealand public. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00224df5b64448bb497fadba02112d2c8431\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224df5b64448bb497fadba02112d2c8431\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E This bill, the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill, represents a major and frightening expansion of Government powers over New Zealand\u2019s communications networks and over those who provide services to New Zealanders on the internet. That is a sobering prospect. It is potentially a big step towards an authoritarian approach to Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill raises serious issues affecting the civil rights and personal privacy of New Zealanders, and it has a lack of checks and balances. It provides extraordinary discretionary powers to the Minister, on the advice of the Government Communications Security Bureau. On the face of it, this bill could impose unreasonable and illogical costs on network operators to comply with the new requirements. On the face of it, it could capture small network operators, such as schools and Wi-Fi communities, and result in unreasonable and unnecessary compliance and surveillance measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt gives ministerial discretion to decide what sort of network should be captured. If, for instance, a network was established to provide information and provide a campaigning tool for an issues-based organisation\u2014an NGO that was of a political nature\u2014could the Minister, on the advice of the Government Communications Security Bureau, decide that this was a threat to national security or economic well-being? That is a frightening thought, and it does go to the heart of democratic activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOn the face of it, this bill hands the control of the network design and operation of a telecommunications network to the Government Communications Security Bureau in the name of \u201Csecurity\u201D, which not only loads a level of bureaucracy and complexity to a legitimate commercial operation but provides an extraordinary level of potential interference in that commercial operation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill gives sweeping powers to the Minister responsible for the GCSB to prevent, mitigate, or remove a significant network security risk that could be related to national security or our economic well-being\u2014in other words, to have the ability to shut down a network or part of a network should it not comply with its demands. This is not supposition; this is how the bill reads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOn the face of it, this bill contains no definition of the problem that is trying to be solved. I would like to just reiterate the words from the previous discussion around this bill, and that is that the privacy of New Zealand\u2019s citizens counts, the civil liberties of New Zealanders count, and checks and balances count in all of our legislation, and they do not exist in this bill as it has been tabled in this House today. On the face of it, this bill should make New Zealanders afraid of what their Government is trying to achieve. There are so many unanswered questions and too little information about the reason that this bill has been brought before us in this form. It has been brought before us with no consultation, no discussion, no analysis of the problem that it intends to solve, no regulatory impact statement, and a lack of checks and balances that would give the New Zealand public confidence in its security agencies and in its Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ELabour supports the modernisation of legislation. Labour supports the need to ensure that New Zealanders and New Zealand businesses are protected from cyber-threats. Let there be no doubt about that. Labour has serious concerns, though, about the two core underpinnings of this bill\u2014the obligations being put on telecommunications companies and the changes to the interception capability regime\u2014and deep concern about the introduction of a formal so-called transparent network security regime and the sweeping powers that it gives to both the Government Communications Security Bureau and the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ELabour cannot support this bill. Labour opposes this bill. This is about our national security, about our human rights, and about Kiwis\u2019 confidence in their security agencies and in their telecommunications agencies. It is also about confidence in the Government and trust that our Government will do the right thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe want to see evidence-based analysis that would demonstrate the need for such sweeping powers and changes. Late on Monday night I received a media release email with a link to the bill before us. Last night I received in my office a letter from the Minister for Communications and Information Technology regurgitating that media release that she had sent out the day before. Less than 24 hours later we have the first reading of this bill. There has been no briefing to the Opposition on this bill. There has been, to my knowledge, no in-depth discussion with the industry about this bill. There has been, as we have said, no regulatory impact statement released to the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill sits alongside the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, which Labour also opposes. We believe that before such an overhaul can take place, there has got to be an independent inquiry into our intelligence agencies and, as I said, an evidence-based approach to why this legislation is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe process around this is incredibly shoddy and it is, quite frankly, frightening because it shows that this Government does not take seriously the concerns of citizens about the important checks and balances that such an important piece of legislation should contain. I am pleased to hear that the bill is going to the Law and Order Committee, which will actually be able to have participation in it. I certainly hope that there will be adequate time for those submissions to be held. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill replaces the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act 2004, but it adds a significant new component to the title, and that component is \u201CSecurity\u201D. It also defines threats to our economic well-being as being security risks, but there is no definition about what that means, and that definition, it appears, lies with the Minister and the Government Communications Security Bureau. There is in this legislation no independent oversight or accountability on what economic well-being or national security is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe process around getting this bill to this House has been shoddy, yet the Prime Minister has said that he wants cross-party support. So why has there not been a discussion with the Opposition parties about this bill? Why has there not been an explanation of the problems that require such sweeping powers to be given to a Minister and to the bureau? Why have we not been told that the intercept arrangements that exist right now between the surveillance agency and the telecommunications companies or the network operators are insufficient? What is wrong with those arrangements? Why has there not been a public discussion on that issue? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe certainly know that there has been a raft of data breaches and security flaws exposed within Government departments and agencies over recent months. In the last year tens of thousands of New Zealanders have had their private information exposed because of lax processes and insufficient IT capability, expertise, and governance arrangements across those Government agencies, but will the bill solve those problems? No. Will it address any of those problems in any way? Is the Government doing anything about those issues in any way? No. What is it doing? Nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWill this bill make New Zealanders feel more safe and secure? My fear is that it is actually going to make them feel more vulnerable\u2014more vulnerable to intrusion into their privacy and civil liberties. There could be intrusions also into the lawful commercial business activities of our network operators, and that is one of the potential dangers behind this bill. Will it have a chilling effect on the innovation of network operation centres and the development of new services? That is a question that is being asked today about this very issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ECould we see our economic well-being being undermined by this bill? New Zealanders should be aware that this bill covers their email, their texts, Twitter, other social media, Skype, and private encrypted discussions through chat sites and cloud services such as Microsoft Lync, Dropbox, Google Drive, and Mega. It would include any business operating cloud services. It could cover the likes of Xero and TradeMe. The limits of the ministerial and Government Communications Security Bureau powers have not been defined, and they leave many questions unanswered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228c383a1419db4e5cb9a682498c86a857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c383a1419db4e5cb9a682498c86a857\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E This bill, the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill, repeals and replaces the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act 2004. There are two parts to the bill. The first part clarifies interception obligations for telecommunications companies, and the second part introduces a transparent network security regime for network operators and the Government to work together on matters of national security. I look forward to scrutiny of this bill in the Law and Order Committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee15197ac50642f48d1108ffc6e480ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee15197ac50642f48d1108ffc6e480ea\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Once again we have the sight of National members supporting a bill through this House that makes significant change to the activities of the Government Communications Security Bureau and to the activities of telecommunication providers and telecommunication users, and we get 1 minute - long, fatuous contributions like that from Jacqui Dean. It is a disgrace to be in this House tonight and watch the National Government once again ride roughshod over democracy, just as it has done time and again over the last 5 years. This Government\u2019s commitment to democracy is wafer-thin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to speak now briefly about the question of the lack of a publicly available regulatory impact statement for this bill, the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill. I want to read from the Treasury website what it says about regulatory impact statements: \u201CTo help ensure that the regulatory process is open and transparent, Regulatory Impact Statements (RISs) prepared to support the consideration of regulatory proposals are published at the time the relevant bill is introduced to Parliament or the regulation is gazetted, or at the time of Ministerial release.\u201D We are standing here in this Parliament tonight without a publicly available regulatory impact statement on a piece of legislation that imposes significant additional regulatory burden\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c252e766534233bf0e778a65b73052\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Or a Bill of Rights vet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587a2418e01241e6bffdef80754070aa\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on telecommunications matters. In addition to that, as my colleague David Parker says, for the second piece of legislation in a row tonight there is no New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet\u2014no section 7 report under that bill for these two pieces of legislation. These are pieces of legislation that cut to the heart of New Zealanders\u2019 fundamental rights and freedoms: the rights to go about their business without the State intervening in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have had the discussion already tonight that there will be occasions when we expect our intelligence agencies to undertake activities. We do need to defend our national security, but we do that in balance with the right to privacy, with the right to freedom of expression, and with the right to freedom of organisation. We balance those things together, and tonight this Government rams through two pieces of legislation without releasing a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet and, in the case of this bill, without putting up a regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is wrong. It is against the principles of this House. As a member of Parliament, I expect to be able to read a regulatory impact statement and understand what Government officials believe the impact of this legislation will be on those who are affected by it, and I am unable to do that tonight. Not one member of the National Government should be voting for this legislation tonight in the absence of that material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am quite confused about this, because what the explanatory note to the bill tells us is that the regulatory impact statement was completed on 12 March. Well, where is it, Minister? Where is it? The Minister for Communications and Information Technology keeps her head down now because the Government is not prepared to give New Zealanders proper information to debate this bill. This bill has been introduced today to this House, and we are debating its first reading tonight. This is a disgraceful display from a National Government that is riding roughshod over democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E When we move to the substance of the bill, my colleague Clare Curran has outlined some of the concerns that are in the public arena. It is very important that we set the context of this. The context of this is a time when public confidence in the Government Communications Security Bureau is the lowest it has ever been. A survey told us that 40 percent of New Zealanders have no confidence in the bureau, and yet here we have a piece of legislation pushed through under urgency for its first reading that will extend the powers of the bureau significantly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI repeat again for this House that this is the time for a fundamental review of our intelligence agencies. Yes, there are new threats to New Zealand security out there. Let us make sure we get in place the organisation and the legislation that will protect New Zealanders\u2019 security and protect New Zealanders\u2019 rights. How can we know that we are doing that without that proper, fundamental review? Once again, this legislation is being put through Parliament in this way because the National Government wants to sweep under the carpet the debacle that has taken place with the Government Communications Security Bureau around the Kim Dotcom affair and what has followed on from that. That is not the way to make legislation; that is not the way to take on an issue that is of such significance for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe big difference between this legislation and the 2004 legislation that it seeks to replace is the introduction of the concept of security\u2014it is in the title of the bill\u2014and the idea of national security. The absence of a proper definition of that, the absence of any shared understanding of what we are actually talking about, is the fundamental problem I have in this first reading. What we now see in this legislation is significantly increased powers for Ministers. Ministers are deciding what \u201Cnational security\u201D means here\u2014in fact, not Ministers, but one single Minister. That is a massive extension of the power of what Ministers can do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMembers of Parliament will recall that one of the interesting moments in the Dotcom saga was the ministerial certificate signed by Bill English in John Key\u2019s absence to suppress evidence in the court. Well, what this bill does is set up a whole process for being able to put evidence to a court that only the court will see, and defendants will not see. And who will be making that decision? But one single Minister. It massively extends the power of an individual Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMore than that, the Labour Party over the years has copped a lot from the National Party about so-called nanny State initiatives. Well, what is this? What is this, apart from going into private business and setting enormous burdens upon those businesses about what they are able to do and the things that they have to do? It talks about an escalating enforcement regime. This is a piece of legislation, again, that\u2014we do not have a regulatory impact statement to get the officials\u2019 background on this, but on the face of it\u2014will increase costs significantly for people in the telecommunications industry. And for what? The Government has simply not made the case for why this is necessary. Perhaps in the select committee process we will start to get some greater idea from this Government about what the case is that it is making here. But at this stage we have not seen that. All we have seen is a bill that increases the powers of Ministers, that puts further burden on businesses\u2014and we all know that it will be the users of those businesses who will wear the costs in the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis bill, in its shoddy process that it has come through to us, actually does a number of things that I believe people in the telecommunications industry will be deeply concerned about. What it actually says is that the Government Communications Security Bureau now has a role in the design and development of data and voice communication networks in New Zealand. It actually gives the bureau a role in that\u2014a vetting role, a role where it could actually stop the development of a network if it believes it somehow breaches this undefined national security. Have a think about that. That is a Government agency having the ability to say to an NGO or to a private business that it is sorry, but its network is not acceptable to the bureau. That is the kind of intervention that this bill is proposing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f5754de534c493abdfebc1faba4fbe9\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that going to do to investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eec70ed7f6642cb8b74e2eed0ed129e\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014what will that do in terms of people who want to invest in telecommunication networks in New Zealand? The Government has simply not made the case. There are numerous unanswered questions within this piece of legislation\u2014a piece of legislation introduced today under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe need good, strong measures to protect New Zealand\u2019s national security. If we are going to get measures that are durable, that requires a cross-parliamentary understanding. We support having good, strong intelligence agencies, but what we cannot support is legislation that rides roughshod over democracy, that fails to make the case for why it is necessary, and that appears, on the face of it, to give the Government extraordinary powers to intervene in the activities of private businesses. That is the kind of thing someone once told me the National Party was all about\u2014supporting the rights of business people to go about what they do without unfair interference. Well, that has all gone, because tonight what we see is legislation from a National Government that has no commitment to democracy and is obsessed by its control and the control of individual Ministers. This bill is being opposed by the Labour Party tonight. We have not seen a case made for it by National, and the way it has gone about it, the process it has used, has been a shoddy, shoddy process, and it is making a sham of our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u00226b8d7e76bc1d4f75b8edd3688917108a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b8d7e76bc1d4f75b8edd3688917108a\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I rise to speak to the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill. It could also be called the \u201CTELCOs (Spying on Kiwis) Bill\u201D, or the \u201CTELCOs (Let\u2019s Get Hacked) Bill\u201D. We have to ask: why now? What is the gap in legislation that we need this bill to cover? We questioned that in April when this bill was being mooted and at the time of the announcement that the Government was to change its plans to modernise the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act 2004. We opposed that Act for good reason, and since then there has been plenty to show up why we should have and why we did. Rather than amend that law, it should be reviewed. The Green Party opposed that law because of the great power it gave agencies to spy on New Zealanders\u2019 online activity. Of course, when we learn about the 88 people who have been illegally spied on, we may see that that has been an abuse of this. Maybe that is the patch-up that this new bill is about\u2014about covering up another one of the gaps where the Government has, clearly, been operating illegally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EIt is very concerning that the changes to this interception capability are being developed at the same time as the Government changes the law around the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2014and not just New Zealand agencies; it is around the agencies of those other nations such as the US, which is the main one behind it, the UK, Australia, and Canada. It gives those agencies associated with that the ability to spy on New Zealanders as well. Or is the reason for this change that agencies have yet again been caught outside the law, and also that in building \u201Cinterceptability\u201D, let us call it, into the network it has actually created weaknesses? We think that they have created weaknesses that could be exploited and they now need to be patched up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EBut tell us the truth. What is going on here? What is the real reason? What are the real reasons for this bill coming at the moment, apart from just overall having a total surveillance State in New Zealand? A commission of inquiry is needed into both the Government Communications Security Bureau and the telecommunications laws, the laws that allow that surveillance, and their operation. We need a review. We need a full commission of inquiry rather than these piecemeal pieces that the Government is putting in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill open us up to? Well, one thing is that the increased capacity in security systems will, basically, allow National\u2019s chosen spy mates, its chosen agencies like the Government Communications Security Bureau and its US mates, to get into, as I said, that deeper hacking. Shortly after Parliament passed the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act 2004, there were concerns raised as a result of what we called the Greek Watergate. In 2004 and 2005 hackers gained access to Vodafone Greece\u2019s mobile system and to the built-in law enforcement interception capability back then, and they tapped months of calls of more than 100 mobile phones. These days hackers do it much, much more. The reason they could do that was that they were using the interception capability put in by the spy agencies. Greek officials believed that a foreign intelligence agency was responsible, and the news media, including the BBC and the Wall Street Journal, at that time raised the United States intelligence agencies\u2014the Government\u2019s mates\u2014as the leading suspects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWhat we are doing here is putting in laws to make it legal for those agencies to spy on us. We do not need to rely on them hacking in any more, because we are setting up laws for them to do it\u2014not us; the National Party and its buddies. There was another thing that happened in 2004\u2014to United States wireless company T-Mobile\u2014that resulted in hackers obtaining candid photos, at that time from Paris Hilton\u2019s Sidekick smartphone account. What did they get? They got 16.3 million customers through that access point. Provided for by whom? By the law enforcement agencies. For over a year that hacker had access to all their social security numbers, dates of birth, voicemail PINs, and passwords to their email accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESo what is this bill? What is this, National? Is this because you have stuffed up? Are you going to make us even more vulnerable when we go into this? Whose tune are we dancing to, National? Who is in town this week? There is lobbying by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is in town again this week. The Government Communications Security Bureau is totally tied in with that. We know that from the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3666a1a9274340abd1fc4ed7f9ba70\u0022\u003EScott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1a7d49fc2274345869c79569421da5a\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: You guys might laugh at the idea that other foreign agencies are part of all of this. You just talk to your boss, John Key, about that, and you will see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239cc1bb6966747aa9bd4da1c04667b55\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bc4a110c1144133b0612ed8241fa317\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Assistant Speaker. This is a disgusting abuse of legislative power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThere is another aspect in this bill, of course. Is this a bill to actually screw down the telecommunications companies to pay even more money in meeting the Government\u2019s requirements? In the early 2000s Telecom was charging Government agencies nearly half a million dollars a year for assisting in search warrants, and Vodafone had set an annual fee of $800,000 to $1 million. The risk, wrote the SIS, was that in future the police would not be able to afford all the bugging that it wanted to do. Is this the reason for this bill: so that other providers will provide the Government the information that it wants free of charge? It certainly seems that this might be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EDean Pemberton, who had previously set up and run lawful interception equipment at TelstraClear, told a lot of network specialists a while back that the agencies expected that sort of assistance from it. He said that they expected TelstraClear to install devices that could intercept data and forward it to the agencies on a minute-by-minute basis. That is what this bill is about. If the companies did not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022840b17d77746462085ed33c680153cfa\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Members, it is a longstanding convention that people should not conduct conversations in the House unless it is absolutely necessary to do so, and then only so as they do not disturb proceedings. I just ask for some courtesy for the member trying to address the House. There is too much background noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022899365bbb67442158f32eb0841195e4b\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. As he pointed out, the agencies were meant to intercept and forward that data\u2014New Zealanders\u2019 data\u2014on a minute-by-minute basis. He said that if the companies did not have this gear in place, they risked a half-million-dollar fine and should get a lawyer. And he said: \u201CIf you try to be wise with them, you\u2019ll end up in the High Court within hours. Don\u2019t be a fool.\u201D Well, of course, the Government is not going to make them be a fool, I suppose. It is going to enforce it through this new legislation and force them to spy on their neighbours, to spy on their fellow nationals, on behalf of the spy agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EAnother concern we have with this is that it is about data retention, or the amount of time the spy agencies demand the telecommunications companies hang on to our private communications, our telephone calls, our texts, our emails, and everything that is going through the systems that these two bill together\u2014there is an ugly twin, as I have said, with the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill\u2014will be able to do. The Greens will be opposing this. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00221963d4234d334866be1d31d0a9ef8d5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221963d4234d334866be1d31d0a9ef8d5d\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to acknowledge Minister Adams for bringing a very good bill, the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill, to the House. This Government is serious about protecting New Zealanders from threats, both domestic and foreign, and this includes updating legislation around interception capability. I look forward to receiving this bill at the Law and Order Committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u00221c72ecdbafbe47f5b0295f12fa460ccd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c72ecdbafbe47f5b0295f12fa460ccd\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to take a short call on this bill, the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill. New Zealand First understands and accepts the realities that have made this bill necessary. We give notice to the House and to the Government that we will be supporting it at least going to the Law and Order Committee at this stage. I will stress, however, that our support is conditional on the concerns that we have being addressed, and on there being sufficient oversight and safeguards put in place so that the rights and freedoms of New Zealand citizens and residents are not jeopardised or disregarded in the execution of the powers that this bill encompasses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThis bill, as stated in the general policy statement, \u201Crepeals and replaces the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act 2004.\u201D The year 2004 was relatively recent in some regards but is a very long time ago indeed by some other measures. Technology marches on all the time at an exponentially increasing pace, and legislation must be able to be updated and improved in order to recognise advances in technology and in the technical field. In addition to this, the commercial landscape has altered dramatically since 2004. Telecom as a single company has nowhere near the market dominance it enjoyed nearly a decade ago. There are more players in a telecommunications environment that is very much different from that which the 2004 Act sought to address. There are more players, there are more networks, there are more devices, and the manner and volume of data and information being transmitted are very much greater. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThis bill covers two main issues: interception and network security. The network security aspects are largely technical in nature and deal with how the telecommunications sector and the companies operating in the telecommunications sector are to actually operate in relation to interception warrants. These technical aspects relate to the operation of the networks and the examination and collection of information and data, both through and from various network devices\u2014matters that, as I alluded to earlier, are subject to rapid technological change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThe nature of individual and commercial use of networks and of network devices is also changing, and it is this usage that by the very nature of its usefulness makes companies as well as governmental agencies vulnerable to exploitation through them. Essential service providers, both public and private, may be subject to eavesdropping and cyber-attacks, with the potential for intellectual property to be usurped and the possibility that essential services to individuals and companies may be compromised. New Zealanders deserve to be protected from such potential threats, and, as such, it is necessary that the legislation governing the interception of electronic communications is able to be updated as required as the terrain of the cyberenvironment evolves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E Interception itself remains almost a separate issue and is also dealt with in this bill. Warrants granted under the auspices of this bill to the police, the SIS, and the Government Communications Security Bureau will need to adhere to, and provide sufficient regard for, the rights and civil liberties of New Zealanders. There will need to be sufficient oversight of these warrants and the authority under which they are granted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThe general policy statement states that \u201CThe main objectives of the Bill are to ensure that the interception obligations imposed on the telecommunications industry are clear and reflect the changing telecommunications industry structure, do not impose unnecessary compliance costs, and are sufficiently flexible to match today\u2019s operational needs and future technology developments;\u201D, and, furthermore, \u201Cthat network operators are obliged to engage with the Government on network security matters where they may raise a risk to New Zealand\u2019s national security or economic well-being, inform the Government of network decisions that may be of particular national security interest, and work with the Government to apply any required risk-based and proportionate security measures.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EIf these objectives can be met and at the same time the freedoms, rights, and civil liberties of New Zealanders can be assured, then New Zealand First has no issue with supporting this bill. We do have some of the same concerns as the Labour Opposition, but they have to be balanced by the knowledge that threats can develop and evolve very rapidly and may well be home-grown. In closing, I would reiterate that New Zealand First\u2019s continuing support for the bill will be conditional on these concerns being examined and satisfied. New Zealand First will support this bill going to the select committee at this stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00221ca38240fbaa4c3889aee716b8a8bb86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ca38240fbaa4c3889aee716b8a8bb86\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to Steffan Browning, and if he is the member for Waihopai, I can certainly claim to be the member for Tangimoana, because I can throw a rock at the Tangimoana telecommunications station.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250de9066e7a64d8caebc403d611d58f5\u0022\u003EKris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d get prosecuted if you did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293110cde201f4d03891594dc4a75e61c\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: There is a security fence around it, Mr Faafoi. However, I understand the need for security, and the previous speaker, Richard Prosser, most certainly pointed that out to me. This Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill is a great piece of legislation, brought to the House by Minister Adams. I have pleasure in commending the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb24b441f3e542b086719d1000a66d19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb24b441f3e542b086719d1000a66d19\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Once again we have an important piece of legislation coming into the House that may be necessary, but the case has not been made out for it; that is certainly intrusive on the privacy and individual rights of New Zealand citizens, but again fails to indicate the checks and balances that might exist to prevent those powers being abused. The Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill is a piece of legislation that was brought in under urgency, yet National speaker after National speaker, instead of making out the case for why this legislation is necessary and what protections there might be to stop its powers being abused, stands up, utters and mumbles a few inane sentences, and sits down. There is a responsibility on the Government of this country when, in the night and under urgency, it tries to rush a piece of legislation through, to actually justify to the country what it is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYou know, there has been a tradition in this House that where a Government acts reasonably there is an effort to achieve a bipartisan consensus to get intrusive legislation through the House. In this legislation there has been no such effort. It was not tabled until today, and when the Minister for Communications and Information Technology brought the bill in, the bill in its printed form made a comment about the release of the regulatory impact statements. There are wide-ranging powers in this bill, and we need to know what Treasury and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment say the implications of this legislation are. But what do we read in the bill? That \u201CThese regulatory impact statements have yet to be publicly released on the Ministry\u2019s website \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Government why it is good enough for it to bring in a bill that gives unprecedented powers over telecommunications companies to the Government to intrude into the lives of private New Zealand citizens, yet the Government does not deem it necessary to table the regulatory impact statements so that the whole House can be informed about what this bill means for New Zealanders. That is a breach of process. That is utter arrogance, matching the arrogance of National members who stand up and speak three sentences, and then jeer from their seats when other people are criticising the way this bill has been put together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to make a point about the bill. This bill is going to the Law and Order Committee. I sit on that select committee. Interestingly, our select committee had before it the Corrections Amendment Bill. Members of the committee are in the House right now and they can confirm that. This submission is from three telecommunications companies: 2degrees, Vodafone, and Telecom. This is evidence that the Government never learns from its failures; it never learns from the fiascos and the botch-ups that it has already made. This is what the companies said: \u201CIt is unfortunate that we were not consulted on the Bill before this process began.\u201D This was about a bill in the corrections context giving power over telecommunications companies\u2014a parallel to this legislation before us\u2014and the telecommunications companies came to the committee and said that they did not know about it before the Government introduced it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMy challenge to the National Government is this: did it consult with the telecommunications companies? Did it ask whether the measures were effective, were able to be implemented, and were necessary? Whether there were better ways of doing it? Whether it unnecessarily intruded on privacy? Silence. You know the answer, Mr Assistant Speaker. The answer is that it did not consult with the companies that are dramatically affected by these legislative powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat do we find about the Government\u2019s last effort to do this that went to the Law and Order Committee? We found that the bill would have had unintended consequences; that the telecommunications providers actually did not have the capability to do what the Government was demanding of them. We found that it gave the department search and surveillance powers over and above any others that existed for Government agencies, that it failed to take into account better ways of doing it, that it set out costs that ran into millions of dollars, and that it was an unjustified intrusion into the privacy rights of individuals. Do you know what the result of that submission was? Everything the telecommunications companies said about that intrusion and those powers was absolutely correct, and the Government slunk off with its tail between its legs. It withdrew the provisions in the legislation and it put into effect provisions that the telecommunications companies said were necessary, useful, pragmatic, and had proper checks and balances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis Government learns nothing from its experience. It brings into the House this bill with unprecedented powers. It has not consulted the Opposition parties. It has not consulted the telecommunications companies. My fear is that our committee will find exactly what it found last time the Government tried to implement something like this: that what the Government was recommending would not work, could not be done, was expensive, abused the rights of ordinary New Zealanders, and failed to protect, where it was necessary to do so, the privacy of individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYou know, I wonder what this legislation is about. Some time ago I was talking to people representing the Australian Government and the United States Government. They asked me this question, saying: \u201CYou know, you\u2019re worried about cyber-security. Why is it that the National Government has agreed to allow Huawei to set up communications networks in New Zealand that we in Australia and we in the United States wouldn\u2019t allow because of the fundamental impact that would have on undermining cyber-security in our countries?\u201D So on the one hand the Government has gone out and it has agreed to something that its closest friends and allies apparently thought was stupid, and then on the other hand it brings this legislation in. Maybe it is bringing this legislation in because in retrospect it realises it has done the wrong thing and it has opened New Zealand up to the sort of cyber-attacks through foreign-owned companies that other countries with similar democracies have not opened themselves up to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI ask the next Government speaker not to mutter something inane when they get up and then sit down again, but to answer that question. Answer all of those questions. Is this about Huawei? Why is it that there has been no communication with the telecommunications companies? Why is it that we found out about this legislation only when it was tabled, and that there was no effort, as you would normally expect, to give a briefing to the Opposition on legislation that provides for a massive expansion of Government powers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to give an indication of what that massive expansion is. Network operators will have to notify the director of the Government Communications Security Bureau of \u201Cany proposed decision, course of action, or change [to] procurement of any equipment, system, or service \u2026\u201D, any change to those, or any change of ownership of any of them. What remarkable powers\u2014remarkable powers that the Government Communications Security Bureau will have over communications companies. Why is this deemed to be necessary at this time? Is it about Huawei? Or is it because the Government just thinks that it should be able to go in and direct anything that the private communications companies are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill says that the telecommunications companies must notify the Government Communications Security Bureau before they go out to the market for any new equipment. That is a huge intrusion on what the telecommunications companies are doing. It has not been necessary in the past. Why is it necessary now? The Government Communications Security Bureau is to have a veto power over network operators upgrading and introducing new network equipment if in the director\u2019s opinion they pose a security risk. What is the criteria he follows in that? Why is that not spelt out in the legislation? Is this a total unbridled power? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIf the director is not satisfied with the proposal, then they can refer it to the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister can direct that they stop a particular activity\u2014enormous powers placed in the hands of the Prime Minister to be directive. Where is the check and balance on that? It may be that they are concerned, for example, about the economic well-being of the country. Every day the National Party stands up in the House and argues that every party in Opposition is undermining the economic well-being of the country. Is this a cause that would allow the Government to spy on the political parties\u2019 decision-making process because of that? You would say that is silly, really, is it not? Is it not silly? The Government would not do that, would it? John Key, or, actually, Bill English, would not suppress the fact that the Government had acted illegally in another area. John Key would not lie about his involvement in the appointment of the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s director. No, they would not do those things! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis is bad legislation\u2014poorly introduced, inadequately explained, with no New Zealand Bill of Rights Act veto, and no checks and balances. The Labour Opposition will be opposing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00222a8017a5307543bdbb8bca7936e134cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a8017a5307543bdbb8bca7936e134cf\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Could I begin by acknowledging the contribution that we had from Richard Prosser as he outlined his party\u2019s understanding of the need for this Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill. We acknowledge that his party has some concerns and they will be worked through. But I want to thank the New Zealand First caucus for its indication of support for an important piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI want to turn just briefly to some of the comments of the member for Mt Roskill, who made much of the idea that the Government has not outlined its case for this bill. I can only assume that he was not in the House at the time that the Minister for Communications and Information Technology spoke in considerable detail as she outlined exactly what the reasons for the bill were. She made it very clear that this is a bill whose time has come because technology is changing so rapidly. It would be totally inappropriate to bury our heads in the sand and to say that the law does not need to change when New Zealand\u2019s telecommunications infrastructure has to be able to remain secure in an increasingly online world. It is about ensuring that telecommunications network security law reflects the realities of our modern telecommunications infrastructure, which is constantly changing at a baffling speed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EOur current legislation relating to interception obligations was put in place when there were only a few major vertically integrated network operators. So much has changed since then. That is no longer the case. Therefore, times have changed, the technology has changed, and the law must change to reflect contemporary needs and challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a871237f43e340d78a2a0be01045a84f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a871237f43e340d78a2a0be01045a84f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80727dbcf124ccc889251e84df97edb\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Split call. A 5-minute call, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e015d2e8a05e47ccbc2b35185f0e2e83\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: A 5-minute call. I call the Hon David Cunliffe, and I will give the member a bell at 4 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00220953f2085cd0414393817a7eaff9caca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220953f2085cd0414393817a7eaff9caca\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E In this Chamber we have decorating the walls the emblems of battles in which New Zealanders have fought. I am looking opposite at one named Egypt, where the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion served so gallantly in the front line of the break out at El Alamein, which it was my privilege once to visit. I am calling it to mind because our late colleague Parekura Horomia was a dedicated attendee at its commemorations. I have been very pleased to be at some. I recall the battalion because the principles for which it fought, and for which too many died, included the protection of the very freedoms which this Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill now calls into question. That is a matter of such seriousness that it behoves this House and every listener to contemplate very, very carefully the freedoms which could be compromised willingly or by omission through this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill as it currently stands, based on the information that we currently have, appears to be a sham in the shadow of a farce. The farce is obvious on our TV screens, and in the debacle of Dotcom and the unanswered questions about Huawei, where our nearest allies, our \u201CFive Eyes\u201D partners, are unwilling to accept certain technology offerings that this Government appears comfortable to do. We have, perhaps most important, a significant issue of the Government Communications Security Bureau\u2019s cart being before its own horse. We have the Kitteridge review, which found 88 cases of illegal spying on New Zealand citizens or residents and made an extensive set of recommendations. It is absolutely proper and important that the House considers the response to that review before it extends the powers of the agency as proposed in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHow does it extend them? Firstly, to broaden the purposes for which the Government Communications Security Bureau may act to include any economic well-being is to broaden it by, as they say, a country mile. Almost anything has a cost in financial terms and can be said to impact business. It is not necessarily wrong to cover that, but we would want much more information about the extent, the process, and the accountability around that because it magnifies the scope of this agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EA colleague opposite talked about technology change. A key change has been the development of the cloud. This bill gives the obligation to our telecommunications providers to allow interception access into the cloud. You have seen the ads by one telecommunications company: \u201CWe can\u2019t even say which Government agencies use our services.\u201D This bill forces them to open up their clients\u2019 accounts to the scrutiny of those agencies, or so it seems. What protections, I ask of the veterans of El Alamein, are given to New Zealand citizens? Will a judge\u2019s warrant be required for such intercepts? Will New Zealanders\u2019 cloud information be deemed to be within New Zealand\u2019s jurisdiction? Or will it be ultra vires because it is in the cloud and not tied to our domestic terrestrial communications? We look for the answer. We have none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat of the scrutiny? Currently the Intelligence and Security Committee, the oversight provided by Parliament, is in name only. It generally gets information after it is released to the public, and it is headed up by John \u201CBrain Fade\u201D Key\u2014a man who has the courage to pick up the phone and ring a schoolmate and ask him to be the head of our spy agency, but does not have the courage to pick up the phone and talk to Aaron Gilmour about his antics. He cannot remember where he was last week, or last month, or last year, or whom he spoke to, or why. Are we prepared to accept that man\u2019s assurance that all of the activities of the agency that are being broadened by this bill are subject to New Zealand law when the Kitteridge review has not yet been acted on? I think not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOur Government Communications Security Bureau has a valid and important role to play in protecting our national interests. It must have the highest trust of this House and the New Zealand people. This legislation needs a lot more clarity and a lot more information before the Labour Opposition can support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u002259f85b73f68a41d384199e5173877a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259f85b73f68a41d384199e5173877a6a\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. I rise to speak to and oppose the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill, introduced by the so-called Minister for Communications and Information Technology, but I think she is going to get a name for herself as the \u201CMinister of Communication Interceptions\u201D. This is a bad day for our democracy. It is a bad day. We are seeing this and its sibling legislation, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill, introduced in this Chamber today under urgency with a constrained committee hearing period, and with no New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet and no regulatory impact assessment\u2014introduced under urgency. It is a bad day for our democracy because I do not think this is the standard Kiwis expect and demand from a Government that takes human rights, civil liberties, and security issues seriously. What we are seeing is bad legislation being introduced under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI received this in my office today. It is dated yesterday. It is a letter from the Minister for Communications and Information Technology, Amy Adams, with the legislation. The day it is tabled in Parliament, the Opposition gets to look at this legislation. That is not in the spirit of the cross-party approach that we have seen over decades when it comes to security and surveillance issues. I think it is a bad day and it reflects very poorly on the Government. I think the tone of this debate reflects very poorly on the Government benches, who are not speaking for more than 1 minute, except for a few bland comments. They should be able to stand up and defend this legislation in the House, in front of these people, and put their words down on the record of our country, and in Hansard. This is the party that boasted so boldly and loudly about the nanny State. This is the party that, ridiculously, talked about Fiji and North Korea when we talked about lower electricity prices and housing affordability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIf we are going to have a conversation about Fiji and North Korea, let us look at the legislation in front of this Parliament today and at what we are talking about. Let us remember what we did last session in Parliament: criminalising protest activity. If there are things that remind me of totalitarian Governments, it is things like spying on its citizens, it is things like retrospectively changing the laws when the Government has been found to have used its agents to act unlawfully, and it is criminalising protest activity. I think it is a bad day for the Government when we are dealing with issues such as this. Government members call it necessary and transparent, but there is no justification. There is no case that they can point to. There is no cross-party process that they have gone through to build support, as would have been the case in the past. This is a large expansion of power. It deals with the interception capability of internet service providers and other network operators. It deals with a differential, escalating role of monitoring and compliance regimes. It contains a penalties regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI do not think the information and communications technology sector or the telecommunications sector will be welcoming this. I doubt they were consulted. We still have not got a mention from the Government benches as to whether they were or not. I think they will be concerned. I think they will be concerned because it is going to risk investment in this critical sector and, I believe, an important part of our economic prosperity going into the future. There are even risks around whether these companies can be sold in the future or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EHey, if we are going to have a conversation on nanny State, let us just look at this bill in front of the House today. This bill contains an extremely wide definition of what security is and what can be surveilled as a consequence. It uses the term \u201Ceconomic well-being\u201D, a catch-all that could catch anyone from Greenpeace, to a protestor with a banner, to the Green and Labour parties when we talk about excessive super-profits in the electricity sector and trying to drive down power bills for Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI think, crucially, what Kiwis find so unfair and egregious about this bill is that what we have seen over the last 18 months is a monumental cock-up when it comes to Kim Dotcom\u2014a monumental cock-up. What this Government has done is reward those spies for their unlawful activities. It is rewarding the spies for their bad behaviour. It is changing the rules to validate what they did. We may as well get Jetstar to write our customer service standards. We may as well get John Banks to run our electoral donation register if we are going to give the spies the laws they want when they act unlawfully. It is bad for our telecommunications and it is bad for our human rights. This is being passed through our Parliament in a poor, shoddy process with no New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThere was a regulatory impact statement produced on 12 March, I understand. That is not in front of this House. It is a terrible process\u2014a shoddy process. It smacks of Muldoonism. I think the members should be ashamed that they are voting for it. I say that with all honesty, and without a sense of rhetoric. This is a shameful day. We have seen a litany of terrible legislation under this Parliament, but, jeez, this has got to take the cake. Laws to spy on Kiwis, to validate unlawful spying on Kiwis, under urgency\u2014a bad day for this country and a bad day for the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f92dd61eeb4937b8981f60ca028d6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f92dd61eeb4937b8981f60ca028d6d\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to be the last speaker in this first reading of the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill. We live in times that are changing. We live in a modern world where there is increasing technology and increasing risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis bill is a good bill. It is a good bill because it will give the increasing number of telecommunications providers that we have a very clear understanding of their obligations, not just to the Government but in terms of the security of New Zealand and our economic well-being in the global environment. This is a good bill. I commend it and endorse it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022403e167b86894010912268d6da336643\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000655\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf846be15ebb4f8fa8f2f27921cb2219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf846be15ebb4f8fa8f2f27921cb2219\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Communications and Information Technology: I move, That the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill be reported back to the House on or before 20 September 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ea2091517aa409086e6d134e6d11bb7\u0022\u003ECriminal Procedure Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002206976893dd10480bb206d77a3e2c3648\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00228d279b4026114928bdcb7e18cf4387be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d279b4026114928bdcb7e18cf4387be\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill be now read a second time. In October 2011 Parliament passed the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 and its 14 associated amendment Acts. Those Acts represented the biggest reform and modernisation of criminal justice procedure in nearly two generations. It forms a comprehensive package that will make the criminal justice system more transparent, understandable, and efficient. Although a small number of provisions came into effect in March 2012, the majority of the legislation will commence in July this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ESince enactment, a number of technical deficiencies have been identified in the Criminal Procedure Act and associated legislation. This bill is an omnibus bill to rectify those technical issues identified during the implementation process. These amendments ensure that the legislative intent of certain provisions is made clear so that those provisions can be interpreted and applied consistent with the policy. The amendments ensure that operational efficiency in the courts is enhanced by clarity in the legislation and that the predicted benefits of reform are realised by full implementation. I would like to thank the Justice and Electoral Committee for its thorough consideration of the bill and the amendments it has recommended. The constructive engagement from all parties on the committee enabled the bill to be reported back to the House well ahead of its due date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E I would like to focus on two issues raised by the New Zealand Law Society in its thoughtful and considered submission on the bill. The first issue relates to the provision of the bill that would have allowed for regulations to make consequential amendments to references to the word \u201Ccrime\u201D. The criminal procedure reforms abolish the summary and indictable offence distinction and repeal the definition of \u201Ccrime\u201D in the Crimes Act 1961. In some instances, references to \u201Ccrime\u201D have already been replaced to make clear the scope and effect of the provision in question. As the Law Society noted, that is necessary in some instances to make legislation intelligible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe relevant regulation-making power was proposed to enable any such references to \u201Ccrime\u201D that may inadvertently remain on the statute book to be tidied up. However, the Law Society raised concerns about the potential for this power to be used to make substantive changes to the criminal law by extending too far the scope of existing criminal provisions, and the committee has removed this particular regulation-making power from the bill. Although the committee doubted that the power would be used inappropriately, it agreed with the Law Society that such amendments would be better made by primary legislation, and this would allow parliamentary scrutiny on a case by case basis of any such amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe second issue relates to another regulation-making power, and this one relates to the jurisdiction of community magistrates. As many members may know, community magistrates are judicial officers who sit on a wide range of less serious criminal matters in several District Courts around the country. The bill clarifies and gives full effect to the intended policy that community magistrates may receive guilty pleas for those offences for which they may sentence offenders. It also amends the regulation-making power in the Act to clarify that community magistrates have jurisdiction to deal with all category 1 offences punishable by a fine of up to $40,000, except those specified by regulations. Currently, the Act requires all offences that community magistrates have jurisdiction over to be specified in regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe Law Society raised concerns that this change reversed a policy decision. Although the committee understood the concern, it ultimately determined that the amendment provided the most efficient means of meeting the overall policy objective that community magistrates should have jurisdiction to act within the specified range, unless there is a compelling reason that they should not do so for any particular offences. The committee also recommended that certain powers be included in the list of matters exercisable by the community magistrates. The Chief District Court Judge raised the issue with the Ministry of Justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EDue to a legislative oversight, certain powers properly exercisable by community magistrates had not been included in the Summary Proceedings Act. This bill provided the opportunity to make the necessary amendments. These give community magistrates the power to order that a vehicle be confiscated and destroyed after a third illegal street racing offence, and the power to issue a written caution to a person with an interest in a vehicle involved in a street racing offence. A number of Land Transport Act powers are also specified as being exercisable by community magistrates, consistent with the Chief District Court Judge\u2019s representations as to the need to update the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThese sensible amendments fall squarely within the scope of this bill and the overall objective of the criminal procedure reforms. As noted by Judge Doogue, without these amendments the valuable resource provided by community magistrates would not fully be utilised. The amendments will help to free up District Court judges\u2019 time and will reduce delay and unnecessary churn in the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommended a number of other very sensible amendments to the bill, consistent with the technical reforms in the bill, to ensure its full implementation and effective operation. These are small amendments, but collectively they ensure that the policies contained in the Criminal Procedure Act will be efficiently and coherently implemented as intended. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f31949729ea341db9232f3412777ef43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f31949729ea341db9232f3412777ef43\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak on the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill and to confirm the Labour Party\u2019s support for the bill. The project of overhauling our criminal procedure legislation started under the last Labour Government. It was overdue and it was a welcome change, and this legislation tidies up the bulk of the work done under what is now the Criminal Procedure Act, which is due to take effect on 1 July this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know, from getting around members of the profession over the last couple of months, that there is a combined sense of anxiety and also a palpable sense of thrill that the profession has about the coming into force of this legislation, because there were problems\u2014major problems\u2014with the administration of criminal justice in this country. Foremost amongst those were the delays being experienced, certainly at the District Court, and also at the High Court level in many registries around the country, and the profession was very keen to see changes made that would enable cases to be brought on and justice to be administered in a timely fashion, as indeed it should be. As we all know, justice delayed is justice denied, or, as it was quoted at one point last year in this House, sometimes justice denied is justice delayed. The logic of that proposition, of course, needs no further explanation, and will get none from me. So we welcome the legislation; it was the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow this Government has discovered there are tidy-ups required. That might call into question, however, the speed with which\u2014even a piece of legislation that went through a very deliberate process can sometimes lead to flaws that have to be corrected. It was good that there was a considerable lapse of time before the implementation date for the legislation. It was 1 July this year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a6a1cdbd8934c55b91de8f9eebfdc5c\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Do you think they should do that to the family law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe6598520154abdb6ac42fa1889486f\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014so there was time to review it. I can think of other laws where it would be entirely appropriate. In fact, some legislation that had its first reading in the House only this afternoon could well do with a much more considered and deliberate time frame to make sure the Government gets it right. I can think of the Family Court Proceedings Reform Bill, which is currently working its way through. It should have been given more ample time to have it properly considered, rather than having it pushed through and becoming a great cause of anxiety to the profession. A submission period that encompassed 4 or 5 or 6 weeks of a Christmas break caused major problems for those who were offering their professional expertise and skill to assist the Justice and Electoral Committee and this House\u2014but that is beside the point. So we welcome, naturally, any changes that will improve the administration of criminal justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is another important principle in all this, which is a point that the Law Society made in its submission on this amending bill, this tidy-up bill. It is that to the best extent possible, criminal justice legislation\u2014if not, indeed, all justice legislation\u2014should be done in this House on a bipartisan or multipartisan basis. When we are talking about the administration of justice, when we are talking about potentially imposing criminal sanctions on people, depriving them of their liberty, that is a matter that the House should reach agreement on, for the benefit of all our citizens. It is good that this legislation has, as indeed the Criminal Procedure Act had as it was being processed through the House, the support by and large of the whole House. That is the way it should be. The criminal justice system needs to be robust, and it requires the robust support of all parties in this House. It was good to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOf course, I speak on this bill not having had the benefit of sitting on the Justice and Electoral Committee at the time it was going through, but the Government is entitled to credit for listening to the submitters and the other parties on the select committee when processing this bill. Changes were made. Although it is largely a technical bill, changes were able to be negotiated and were indeed made. A principal change, which the Hon Chester Borrows adverted to in his presentation just now, was the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause that would have allowed changes to primary legislation and references to the term \u201Ccrime\u201D in that legislation to be amended through Order in Council. That has gone, under this bill. That is the correct thing to do. The term \u201Ccrime\u201D, whether it is in the Crimes Act or in any other piece of legislation, is a sensitive term, a term of art in many respects, and if that term is to be changed in any legislation, then it should have the proper oversight and scrutiny of this House. That will be the case with this bill as reported back to the House from the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere were other amendments made. The clarification of charging documents\u2014we are no longer having informations laid in the criminal justice system. We are to have charging documents. The procedures and rules around the waiving of fees to access documents to clarify are improved, and that is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe administration of criminal justice is a crucial aspect to the principle of the rule of law, and it is our adherence to the rule of law as a principle and in practice that makes us a developed, modern, civilised nation. That must underpin what we do in criminal justice, and indeed in any justice legislation that we pass. But I think it is timely to point out in this regard that in too many other cases we have a Government at the moment that is showing a willingness to ride roughshod over basic rights and principles, and that runs counter to adherence to the principle of the rule of law. We have seen tonight in other debates exactly that risk being taken, that threat being imposed, in the debating and passage of other legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe rule of law is absolutely crucial. That is why the World Justice Project, sponsored by the American Bar Association, now has a rule of law index for every country in the world. New Zealand presently rates reasonably well in that rule of law index, but it is the actions of this House and of Government agencies that will determine whether we maintain our high ranking in that register. We do not want to compromise our position. Having a good standing and a good rating on the rule of law puts us in good stead internationally not only as good international citizens of the world but also for our commercial and trading partners to know that this is a place where they can reliably do business. They must also know that when citizens of other States come here and they are subject to a criminal regime, that criminal regime will also be subject to the basic principles of the rule of law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut that is not what we have seen in other situations. Only today and yesterday we have seen the Minister of Justice talking about, as a knee-jerk reaction, introducing a new register of deported offenders\u2014New Zealand citizens, deported back to New Zealand after committing offences in other countries\u2014as a permanent record of their offending, and with no scope for them to put their evil past behind them and embark on a good future. We have seen that the Family Court reforms launched on this House have now had to be changed because of some of the failures to observe basic principles of the rule of law\u2014denial of the rights of counsel, particularly to children, which we know is a breach of our international obligations under international conventions. The rule of law remains important and that is why this bill is one of those bills where we see that when the House gets it right, our standing and our place, when it comes to measures of the rule of law, are good and sit at a high level; it is the right thing to do. On that basis, we are thankful for the Government taking the time and effort to listen on this criminal justice legislation, and we support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002204edc2ea8edd45498781b005aa718a04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204edc2ea8edd45498781b005aa718a04\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E As chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee it is a great pleasure to stand and speak in support of the second reading of this Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. The bill, as other speakers have indicated, contains a number of technical amendments required to ensure that the legislative intent of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 is made clear and can be applied as intended. As Mr Little just mentioned in his presentation previously, the support for this piece of legislation at the select committee was unanimous and I am delighted to report that the committee worked very well on its deliberations in regard to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2192bd0269b40aa9d5bc9f7007f7f80\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Good committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c5ebd25be524933abf2afb15348d4f1\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a good committee, Mr Macindoe\u2014a very good committee. I think it was a good example of how the select committee process can work to make for better legislation, and I want to thank members for their cooperation and support during the discussions that we had. The bill contains these technical amendments to make for better operational efficiencies within our court system. We heard, as others have mentioned, a very compelling submission from the New Zealand Law Society in relation to its concerns about the so-called \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause. It was a good result that that was removed from the draft of the bill, and I think we have got now a position on this piece of legislation that is going to be acceptable across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E The Government believes that justice delayed is justice denied. This bill will ensure that timely justice is delivered for victims, witnesses, defendants, and our entire community. Currently our system is clogged and needs to be fixed, and these amendments in this piece of legislation will remedy that. I commend the bill to the House. It is a good piece of legislation, and I support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e21e9a4ce06e4277839b295980786cf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e21e9a4ce06e4277839b295980786cf4\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E When the Associate Minister of Justice commented on this piece of legislation, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill, he did not mention that clause 15 was a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause. I think it is important to put on the record of the House why there is an objection in principle to \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clauses being enacted. The reason is simply this: that when an enactment needs to be amended, it should be done by Parliament\u2014it should not be done by the executive. When one has a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause in play, it actually enables the executive to make an amendment to the work of Parliament, which in itself, of course, is something that should not be taken lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EA number of people have mentioned the Law Society\u2019s submission on this particular piece of legislation. The society commented on the use of the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause, and said that in this particular instance it did not have an objection to it, because it was the power to make technical amendments to the enactments that the legislation amends to ensure consistency across the statute book. Generally speaking, that was acceptable to the Law Society and, I think, acceptable right across the House in terms of those minor amendments that would need to be made in order to ensure consistency. When one is talking about the extent of reform that the criminal procedure legislation was designed to address, it was entirely appropriate that some mechanism for those tidy-ups outside the statutes amendment process could be allowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo, generally speaking, the principle was accepted that as long as it was within that category there was not a problem, but the Law Society pointed out that it could be problematic. I want to particularly congratulate Graeme Edgeler, who appeared on behalf of the Law Society, because, obviously, he personally had put a lot of effort into this particular submission, and I believe that he represented the Law Society\u2019s position exceptionally well. What he said when he appeared before the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014and I have the submission in front of me\u2014was that he was concerned about the insertion of a paragraph that would allow references to the word \u201Ccrime\u201D in other enactments to be amended by the executive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAgain, where that was a technical issue he did not have a problem. But what the Law Society in fact identified was that what could happen was that there could be, by regulation, a vast expansion of the scope of certain offences, in fact resulting in the criminalising of conduct that would have been entirely lawful but for that amendment. Of course, he made the point\u2014quite rightly so\u2014that these sorts of policy decisions are questions that Parliament itself should consider. When select committee members heard the submission we did question him about this, and I think what he really persuaded the select committee of was that we had to rethink what the essence of the amendment was all about. What he was concerned about and the Law Society was concerned about was that: \u201CUnder the law applying before the principal Act enters into force, the concept of a \u2018crime\u2019 for the purposes of the criminal law is essentially a subset of imprisonable offences: it includes all offences where the prosecution has the option of laying a charge indictably. There are a substantial number of imprisonable offences that do not meet the definition of \u2018crime\u2019, as the prosecution is not permitted to lay them indictably.\u201D So this is a natural consequence of the change to the legislation itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E Then he went on to say that \u201CThis Bill itself makes a number of amendments to the term \u2018crime\u2019, and provides good examples of the type of amendment that are technical, compared with those that involve important policy questions.\u201D Then he says: \u201CSchedule 2 lists a number of amendments to uses of the word \u2018crime\u2019 in the Crimes Act 1961. The amendments \u2026 are simple amendments that enable the law to be intelligible now that the definition of \u2018crime\u2019 has been repealed and the distinction between summary and indictable matters removed. The amendments to the other sections are different: while they may be the right course, they involve a policy choice that extends the scope of criminal offences beyond that which applies today. The choice of what replaces \u2018crime\u2019 in these situations determines how much the reach of these offences is extended.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThen he goes on to talk about how, for example, \u201CThe offences in the sections listed above tend to criminalise innocuous or not-very-serious-behaviour when it is committed with intent to commit a crime. Section 251(2) of the Crimes Act, for example, criminalises possession of computer software that is capable of enabling unauthorised access to a computer \u2026 however, this possession is only illegal if done with the intent to commit a crime.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo he was making the point that the situation of removing the reference to the word \u201Ccrime\u201D would in fact potentially create a criminal offence that was not the original intention because it was not done with the intent to commit a crime. Then he used a number of other examples, but the best example he used was burglary: \u201CBurglary involves an unauthorised entry to a building \u2026 with intent to commit a crime. Unauthorised entry by itself is illegal, but is not considered to be particularly serious \u2026 However, if the entry is done with the intention of committing a crime, it becomes a burglary,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo even though he went through all of the technical details in the way that he did, the point that he made was absolutely correct. What we were actually going to be doing was creating the potential for offences that would not of themselves be regarded as serious crimes to become serious crimes by the removal of the word \u201Ccrime\u201D in the legislation. We had a good, robust conversation with officials about this, and I have to say that the officials who were serving our select committee were very, very helpful. They actually came back to us with a very simple solution to the problem, and that was to remove the reference to clause 15(3)(h) altogether. That, I think, was incredibly helpful, because what it enabled us to do was address a very serious issue that may never have become a problem. But given the fact that it could have, and that our select committee had been given the benefit of that advice, I think we actually did the right thing. So I do agree with the chair of the select committee that we were incredibly well served by our officials and we were able to make the change that we did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI just want to agree with what my colleague Andrew Little said before, and that is that when you are faced with legislation at a select committee, even if it looks pretty straightforward on the face of it, sometimes it takes just one submission\u2014there were only two submissions that we received on this entire bill\u2014and somebody to come to the select committee and make the case, and you can end up making quite a substantial change to the legislation, which means that you do not get into problems down the track. I think what Andrew Little was saying was that actually we do have to allow time for bills to go to select committees so that those who are going to make submissions can take the time to consider all of the elements of the legislation, and to enable them to make constructive comments, as the Law Society did in this particular case, and to enable that to be considered by officials and for a select committee to report back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESometimes I think that we actually do a disservice to the very robust process that we have of referring out to the public for that wider reach and consideration on legislation. We do the people of New Zealand a great disservice if we do not allow sufficient time for that. I think that what we have seen here tonight in the House with other bills that are not being allowed sufficient time at a select committee is that we will pay a price for that in the long term. This is a very simple piece of legislation, but it just shows what a difference one submission can make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe other example that my colleague Andrew Little used was the Family Court proceedings legislation, where we have not had sufficient time, and with the looming deadline of the legislation coming into force in part on 1 October this year, I just despair of the reality of people who have to operate within a time frame that does not allow for sufficient time. So in this particular instance I would really like to place on record my sincere thanks to the New Zealand Law Society. It has done this House proud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022655b39f15bb64f70b174ff0709e07f48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022655b39f15bb64f70b174ff0709e07f48\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I am pleased to speak to this bill, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill, and to confirm the Greens\u2019 continued support for this legislation. It is a necessary piece of legislation. It is practical. It seeks to ensure the integrity and, indeed, the utility of the primary legislation\u2014the legislation as passed in 2011, or was 2012 the final passing? As highlighted by the Minister introducing the bill, the Associate Minister of Justice, the 2011 legislation intended to make the criminal justice system more transparent, more understandable, and more efficient. Those are clearly admirable goals and appropriate goals, and it would be perverse not to support them. It is worth recalling that at the time the legislation was being put through the House in 2011, there were elements of the original drafting that were not admirable and did not win the support of this House, particularly in the proposals to change the practice of trial by jury and to change the practice and policy around the presumption of innocence. In the event, of course, the Minister at the time lost the majority in the House due to those two critical elements of the original drafting. It required him to recant and indeed to redraft the bill into a form that was acceptable, and it ultimately did get passed through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think the necessity to ensure that our criminal justice system does move speedily and smoothly, and that it is streamlined and efficient, has been highlighted recently in the context of conversations around the bail laws and the perceived necessity of amendment to those. We are seeing reports of increased offending by people on bail, and clearly one of the drivers of that is simply that people are on bail for much longer than is desirable. In part, that is due to the fact that the courts are not able to put cases through. Hearings are taking too long and the process is slower than it ought to be and than it ideally would be. Anything we can do to amend that has got to be a desirable thing and something we will support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EHowever, there is some disconnect, I have to say, between the intention of this bill\u2014the efficiency, and the streamlining of the justice process and of the court process\u2014and other policies, other legislation, and other practices of this Government, where it seems almost deliberately to be setting out to slow the functioning of the courts, and to make the courts less effective and less efficient than they ought and need to be. I think of issues like the numbers of support staff. As with elsewhere in the Public Service, we are seeing a reduction in numbers. We are hearing from lawyers, from people working in the justice sector, that we are seeing a loss of experienced staff in the courts. As a result of that, we are not seeing the courts operating as effectively and as efficiently as they might. That is clearly not a desirable thing. We should be at least ensuring we have sufficient well-trained, well-qualified, and experienced staff in our courts to ensure the prompt and the effective delivery of justice to people going through the court system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESimilarly, it seems perverse at a time when we are seeking to improve the functioning of the court system that we are closing courthouses in some of our provincial areas and reducing services available at other courts. This is not helpful, clearly, to the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1414e74af5e44db9d79e04749860004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1414e74af5e44db9d79e04749860004\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for me to leave the Chair. This debate is interrupted, and the people\u2019s House stands suspended until 9 a.m., when I shall resume the Chair. Tihei mauri ora! Parekura Horomia, haere r\u0101. P\u014D m\u0101rie. Good evening, honourable members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130508e62c79011d9a42ff90bd321b34a55d6d000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfa344b0206f41a1aa65418f9a66c4bf\u0022\u003EWednesday, 8 May 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a00cdcb9b70b4d99b34763ab61d8146d\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 9 May 2013)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022816ea21f8ad94456867da951b6c517e3\u0022\u003ECriminal Procedure Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd516822013b4640ba08e32268503d39\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00227f6d546958dc4ba1888b57b072564945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f6d546958dc4ba1888b57b072564945\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. Members, the House is debating the second reading of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. David Clendon has the call. He has 6 minutes remaining, if he wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00229ddb464a4a904fbdb99464b802bf96be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ddb464a4a904fbdb99464b802bf96be\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e18614614db4f0396d6ee347c8d4b79\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t have to!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d7f0df67e7c47919338bce7a5971734\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: I would not deprive you of it, Mr Henare. I am pleased to pick up the remaining few minutes. Last evening, about 11 hours ago or so when we were discussing this bill, I was making the point that the intention of the original legislation, which we are now repairing, for want of a better word, was to make the criminal justice system more transparent, more understandable, and more efficient, and the Minister introducing the bill yesterday reminded us of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThose are admirable goals, and we support this legislation, in part because we do need a well-functioning justice system. But sadly\u2014and I was also making this point last night, or had begun to\u2014a lot of what this Government is doing elsewhere is actually counting against the implementation and the practice of an efficient and fast-moving justice system. By \u201Cfast-moving\u201D, I mean we have to get cases through to the courts as quickly as we can practically do so. It is not acceptable, for example, that people may be sitting on bail, or, indeed, on remand, for 6 months, a year, or even 18 months, often in quite serious cases, because the courts are that jammed up that we are not getting the cases through in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe level of offending on bail has gone up, we are told, and clearly that is in part related to the fact that people are spending longer on bail because the courts are not moving sufficiently\u2014they are not moving quickly enough or smoothly enough. Some of the reasons for that, we know, are that there have been some cuts in court staffing. The courts are now struggling to fulfil their core functions. We are seeing a significant loss particularly of senior staff, or experienced staff\u2014the people who actually understand and have the institutional memory to make these quite complex organisations work well. Although we might seek a legislative remedy to ensure that the legislation supports an efficient operation of the courts, if we are going to remove the people who actually make it work day to day, then we will not succeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is important too that we keep the courts open, and it is unfortunate that we are seeing closures of courts around the country. We are seeing a reduction in the accessibility of courts, due to reduced services, reduced hours. None of this is supporting or helpful in the sense of wanting to get our justice system working effectively, smoothly, and quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are seeing reductions in the availability of, and eligibility for, legal aid despite the fact that this can drive people of necessity to represent themselves, and we have seen on the Ministry of Justice\u2019s own website cautionary tales advising people not to self-litigate. Self-litigants in the courts dramatically slow the courts. They cause a great deal of extra work and load on judges, court staff, and other people involved in the process. We ought to be making other practical contributions to a smooth and effective criminal justice system rather than undermining it. We have seen that very recently, in fact\u2014legislation is still in process around the Family Courts, where, again, we are seeing a reduction in the accessibility to the right of people to use lawyers, which will force them to self-litigate. We are seeing increasingly that far from making courts more accessible and more understandable to lay people, they are becoming less accessible, and that is simply not helpful in terms of what this legislation is allegedly trying to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe Greens will continue, as I said at the beginning, to support this legislation. It is necessary to ensure the integrity and utility of the primary legislation that was passed a year or so ago. We will support it for that reason, and we do obviously encourage the idea of the courts being more efficient, more transparent, more accessible to people. But, unfortunately, we are going to have to wait for another Government, a more enlightened, progressive Government, to come along to actually put in place the necessary structures, the necessary legislation, the necessary policy to make our courts work as we all want them to do. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022839abec2148c4464ab043baeb0a01209\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225574aee03b8646bda0c9982d748ca462\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00224e4ec4ff186d4a79a7a6c3a599e69af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e4ec4ff186d4a79a7a6c3a599e69af4\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for there to be a question time at 2 p.m. on Thursday, 9 May, and for questions to be lodged in the normal manner, pursuant to Standing Order 378.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe07ad6d52fd49f29b7323ce9bc59f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe07ad6d52fd49f29b7323ce9bc59f51\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb4f906cad0b4382819c87ddd0728143\u0022\u003ECriminal Procedure Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200870a17ded047faa9ea809030390b6a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000022\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022e850bfcb4ba8427d83f3e172e02c5083\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e850bfcb4ba8427d83f3e172e02c5083\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise and take a call on the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. The previous speaker, Mr David Clendon, talked about a smooth and effective system, and that is exactly what this bill is actually intending to do. The bill makes minor technical amendments\u201411 in particular\u2014so that the legislative intent is clarified, the operational efficiency is enhanced, and the predicted benefits are realised. That is exactly what we are doing, and I agree with Mr Clendon in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI want to briefly touch on two submissions\u2014in fact, there were only two submissions\u2014on this bill. One was from the Law Society and one was from Dr Don Mathias. Clearly, their submissions were in support, and generally there were a number of just minor changes that people wanted to make, but in particular there was general support for this bill because of what it is intending to do. The proposals build on the changes already under way to improve the criminal justice system, including removing oral deposition hearings, legal aid reforms, victims of crimes initiatives, and the roll-out of audio-visual links between courts and prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI also just want to comment on a couple of things that will be achieved, including the changes made in the Supplementary Order Paper. The reforms contained in this bill have the potential to free up 10,000 court sitting hours each year by delivering benefits that include 31,200 fewer court events, 300 to 500 fewer jury trials, and 6 to 9-week reductions in the average time to complete a jury trial. This is a good bill. We think it has got great support right across the House. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00224ffbf0846a724a6e9a514443a141ba3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ffbf0846a724a6e9a514443a141ba3b\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. I would like to begin by congratulating the Associate Minister of Justice, Chester Borrows, on a good piece of legislation. I would like to congratulate the Justice and Electoral Committee on its work, which it carried out in a constructive and non-political way. I would particularly like to congratulate the Law Society and thank it for the quality of its contribution. It is fair to say that this piece of legislation would not be what it is without its input. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe nature of the amendments this bill makes to various Acts is largely technical, as others have said, arising from the passing of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011. Although technical only in nature, they are still important and necessary amendments to keep the criminal law and procedure up to date. Failure to do so, of course, may result in some very unfortunate results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe amendments fall into four categories. The first is a number of cross-referencing and other minor technical fixes, which form the bulk of the bill and are pretty straightforward in nature, requiring no debate here. Secondly, there are amendments to ensure that the procedures and processes under the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 can be fully implemented to operate as intended, and these are also straightforward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe most important amendments are those with references to crime, in several statutes, due to the repeal of the definition of \u201Ccrime\u201D in the Crimes Act 1961. An example of those is clause 4, which amends section 5 of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011, and concerns interpretation. The amendment adds a definition of \u201Cimprisonable offence\u201D, and clause 32 amends section 11 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975, which concerns the theft of controlled drugs. The amendments replace \u201Ccrime\u201D with \u201Coffence\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EClause 34 amends section 28 of the Summary Offences Act 1981, which concerns being found in a public place preparing to commit a crime. The amendments replace \u201Ccrime\u201D with \u201Cimprisonable offence\u201D. Those are some examples of many amendments of that kind\u2014simple in nature but very necessary and very important. So those are all measures that we can all easily support. They are good housekeeping amendments. Definitions in criminal legislation are, of course, of very high importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E Another amendment gives community magistrates jurisdiction to receive guilty pleas for certain category 2 offences, being offences in respect of which community magistrates have sentencing jurisdiction. The opportunity is also taken to clarify with greater specificity other aspects of community magistrates\u2019 jurisdiction. These also are sensible and necessary amendments, which will improve aspects of criminal procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014mainly as a result of the input of the Law Society\u2014recommended the deletion of clause 15(3)(h) of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill as introduced, which contained a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause under which there would have been a regulatory power for the Minister of Justice to change the definition of \u201Ccrime\u201D, effectively amending legislation. Indeed, Henry VIII would have been proud of such a power, and, no doubt, would have used it to the hilt. New Zealand First supports, of course, the deletion of this clause, which was unnecessary and improper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe bill makes many such sensible amendments, all of which are really just good housekeeping. New Zealand First will therefore vote for the bill, which, as I have already noted, is largely technical in nature. It makes some simple and technical changes in relation to the good operation of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00221e4ab6dc7e8d4a979ee71772f3ba069e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e4ab6dc7e8d4a979ee71772f3ba069e\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very short call in support of the second reading of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. This bill is another step in our commitment to a more effective and efficient justice system. It has been described several times as \u201Cminor and technical\u201D. I would have to say, as a previous lawyer, that when those words are used, it actually leads to more scrutiny and invites more attention, rather than less. Having said that, it is somewhat minor and technical, but it is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe most debated provision was in relation to the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D regulation-making clause. The Law Society made a very compelling argument. My colleague the Hon Lianne Dalziel has in her earlier speech well traversed the ramifications of \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clauses. I do not need to add any more to the debate than that. I merely say this is a good bill. It should be passed. I am pleased that it has got bipartisan, apolitical support across the House, and I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002293a0b09fe38f46e0a4afc03e08172c8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293a0b09fe38f46e0a4afc03e08172c8f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting\u2014just to pick up on a comment made by the last speaker, the Hon Kate Wilkinson\u2014to hear about the Government welcoming bipartisan support. I think it is good when the House can come together and overwhelmingly support a piece of legislation that people acknowledge will improve the functioning of the justice system. Indeed, the Law Society in its submissions on this bill, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill, made the point that in regard to criminal legislation, you should try to take the politicising of it out and actually work to have a coherent policy that will serve the interests of New Zealanders, of victims, and of all of those who appear in the court system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI would hope that the Hon Kate Wilkinson and the National caucus as a whole actually take those principles and apply them more generally to the legislation in the House. Last night we spent hours debating legislation\u2014when no member of the National Government got to their feet to debate it\u2014that was rammed through under urgency. No attempt was made to build consensus. There was an absolute politicisation of the process. And then the Government wondered why it got powerful Government security legislation rammed through the House with the barest of margins\u2014the barest of margins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo I say to Kate Wilkinson: take the principles that you have just stated now and apply them to what you are generally doing across the House, and then you would get better legislation. You would have proper process and you would have good legislation. What the National Government showed last night was that it was not interested in process and was not interested in good legislation. It was not interested in protecting human rights against the most intrusive powers that the State can operate. Contrast that with this legislation. Suddenly peace and harmony, Chester Borrows, have broken out across the House. There is good reason for that. I agree with what Chester Borrows said in the House last night. These are the most important changes to the criminal procedure legislation in 50 years\u2014in a couple of generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E We need to look at the process to understand why this legislation will be good. It began under Labour, actually, in 2007. The way we went about this\u2014and I was Minister of Justice just prior to that\u2014was that we got the Ministry of Justice to do the work together with the Law Commission. They spent thousands of hours in working out how we could get fundamental reform to deal with some of the issues that confronted the justice system. So the process was not rushed, it was not rammed through, and it was not designed to be a distraction from the embarrassment of the Government in another area, like the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill was last night. It was proper process. The homework was done and the groundwork was laid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThen we got the legislation. The primary legislation for this bill was 526 pages long. It was an enormous piece of legislation, and what it tried to do was address some of the critical issues that were facing the procedures in the criminal justice system. There were excessive costs and there were excessive time delays. You had a legislation process, or a framework, that was outdated, and you had excessive complexity involved in it. In fact, the Law Commission described the court system as an impenetrable maze for lawyers. Lawyers might like that because it creates work for them, but, actually, when they think of the public interest, they do not like that. You have got to think about serving society, about serving victims, and about protecting the interests of defendants in the right way. We were getting huge delays in the court system, and justice delayed is justice denied. We have heard that many times over, and it is absolutely correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo the legislation that came in aimed basically at addressing these critical problems: excessive costs, excessive delay, excessive complexity, and an outdated legislative framework. There was cross-party support for that broad reform, but then the Government decided it wanted to put in a number of more contentious things. That included lifting the threshold for jury trials so you would not be eligible for a jury trial unless your maximum jail sentence was in excess of 3 years. It required the defence to identify and disclose issues under dispute before trial, and that clearly would have worked against the interests of the defendant and would have been unfair. There was the allowance of courts to actually try a defendant in the defendant\u2019s absence. That was an absolute turn-round on fundamental rights in the justice system that go back hundreds of years. There was the attempt to load compliance costs on to those involved in the process, and there was the attempt to remove the right to silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to give credit to a past National Minister of Justice, Simon Power. Actually, even though he put this in the original criminal procedures legislation, when the submissions were heard before the select committee, when the evidence was given, and when Labour, the Greens, and other parties highlighted the inadequacies of this, he listened and made changes\u2014he listened and he made changes. There was proper process. The select committee worked. That is what democracy was about. That is why last night in this House we fought tooth and nail against the abridging of that process and the truncating of the opportunities for people to make submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIf you want to get legislation right, this legislation demonstrates absolutely clearly the importance of the select committee process. And we have just heard National members on this technical piece of legislation to bring the criminal procedures legislation into effect saying how important those submissions were. Today they say how important it is for the public to be able to make submissions. Last night they voted in the House to abridge the right of New Zealanders to have their voices heard on perhaps the most intrusive powers a Government has ever given itself to interfere in the privacy of individuals and to direct companies. I say those are double standards. We cannot say: \u201CThis legislation is good. Isn\u2019t it great? We\u2019ve got consensus, good process, good outcome.\u201D and then do the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhen is this slow-to-learn Government ever going to pick up the message that if you want legislation that serves New Zealand properly, then you do the proper process? You consult before you bring in contentious legislation. You try to embrace the Opposition and say that this is what you are trying to do. Before you tell telecommunications companies what to do in every aspect of their jobs, talk to them first\u2014talk to them first. We saw in the corrections amendment legislation, which some of my colleagues from the opposite side of the House were on the committee for, that the Government in that case did not talk to the telecommunications companies first. It got it absolutely wrong. It had to do a total U-turn. But did it learn that lesson? No, it did not learn that lesson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe appalling thing about today is that this bill before us today highlights every rort, every inadequacy, every breach of process, every attempt to truncate the ability of New Zealanders to have their voice heard and people to be properly consulted that occurred last night. When is this National Government going to learn? When are those backbenchers, with their heads down now, actually going to stop being lobby-fodder and challenge in their caucus the ridiculous decisions being made by their Ministers, including the Prime Minister? People elected the Government members to the House to actually have their voice heard, not to stand up on highly contentious legislation, mumble some inane comment, and sit down. That is not the job of the Government backbenchers, and well you should hang your heads in shame at the behaviour of the National Party caucus and its acolytes last night in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation is actually a good piece of legislation. It supports a piece of legislation that had bipartisan support, that went through proper process, and we are celebrating that now. So, for heaven\u2019s sake, if this is good and this was good process and this worked in the interests of New Zealanders, apply those same principles across everything that the Government is trying to do, including some of the obnoxious pieces of legislation that were compelled through the House last night by the narrowest of majorities. All that means is that, actually, we will be back in 18 months under a new Government to repeal that legislation. This legislation today is an example of how you should have done it, and that is why Labour is supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f3dc279bc242cdb5df0fcb3f94a1c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f3dc279bc242cdb5df0fcb3f94a1c4\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak to the second reading of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. As has been noted, this bill is largely technical and contains non-controversial amendments to ensure that the intent of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 is clear and can be applied as it was intended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill has the support of the House. It is a good bill, with very sensible amendments. It is another step in National\u2019s commitment to make the justice system more responsive. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002220db7d83631c4fa7be472e9521d9e1a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220db7d83631c4fa7be472e9521d9e1a8\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This will be a split call. Kris Faafoi, 5 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc4f5d77ce3143379d33b4c914364651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc4f5d77ce3143379d33b4c914364651\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Before I hand out a few brickbats, let me hand out a few bouquets: first of all, to the Justice and Electoral Committee; to Scott Simpson, who is the chair; to Jackie Blue; to my colleagues Andrew Little and the Hon Lianne Dalziel; and to those who submitted to the Justice and Electoral Committee on this bill, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs Phil Goff said, we have got a bill in front of us at the moment at the second reading that has been amended. It is a good bill and it is a perfect example of how the process works when good legislation goes through this House. It has cross-party support, as the Hon Kate Wilkinson said. There has been a lot of consultation with Opposition parties to make sure that this very important piece of legislation will go through the House and have the wide support of this Parliament, because it is a very, very important piece of legislation in terms of our criminal procedures. We can contrast that, as the Hon Phil Goff said, with the pieces of legislation that we had before this around the Government Communications Security Bureau and the interception of telecommunications, where the process has been an absolute farce and an absolute shambles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThose two pieces of legislation are very important in terms of oversight of our intelligence committees. You really do have to look at the way that the Government has put this piece of legislation through\u2014in what I think was a very good manner, and we have got a very good piece of legislation before us\u2014and what happened before this piece of legislation in terms of those two bills, the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill and the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have also got the situation where last night we were debating the truncation of the select committee consideration of one of those pieces of legislation; again, taking away the ability for the scrutiny that is absolutely needed when we are talking about the surveillance of New Zealanders\u2019 telecommunications. Again, this is in complete contrast to the process in the select committee with this bill, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI understand there were only two submitters to this bill, the major one being the New Zealand Law Society. You have to contrast the ability of people who are aware of the situation in this criminal procedures legislation with the Law Society coming in and making a fulsome submission to the select committee. That select committee went away and listened to that submission, and made the appropriate changes in the appropriate length of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EBut in the previous legislation that I was talking about here, we have a truncated select committee period for a piece of legislation that goes to the heart of democracy and also the oversight of our security intelligence agencies. As the Hon Phil Goff has said, you can hardly make sense of the contrast between the process with the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill and with the legislation that this Government put through this House yesterday, in terms of the changes that it is making to our intelligence agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs has been said before, this is a bill that makes technical amendments to, I think it is, the Criminal Procedure Act, which was put through this House in 2011. It has come out of work that was started by the Labour Government in 2007. I do want to just reiterate the words that the Hon Kate Wilkinson said\u2014that although they may be technical amendments, they are very important amendments that make sure that the Criminal Procedure Act actually works for those people who are going through the court system, because there are some serious issues around delays in our court system, the increasing costs of getting justice in our court system, and also the complexity of the court system for those who are going through it, and that is for victims as well as defendants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely, fundamentally correct that we should put through this legislation to ensure that the quality of justice that those victims and those defendants are getting in our justice system is as good as it can be. As I did say, there was one major submission to the select committee, by the New Zealand Law Society, and that was basically around some concerns around the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause, which has been well traversed, around the definition of crime and the ability to change the definition of crime by regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI just wanted to congratulate the Justice and Electoral Committee on taking that on board and making sure that that part of this bill was removed, because, as I say, this is a case where a select committee has listened and has acted, and the process was good. But I reiterate that in other bills that are before this House on this day of urgency, that has not been the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022cef34532deca4996b5cba37a42e4429d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cef34532deca4996b5cba37a42e4429d\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call in the second reading debate on the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. As has been mentioned by everyone before, this bill is housekeeping, and it is good housekeeping, and that is an important thing. It is an indication for us\u2014and I think this has been said before\u2014that we can talk about housekeeping as if it is a very simple thing that is not very important, but, actually, if we do not do the housekeeping properly, terrible things can happen. That is why it has been good to see this bill go through this process\u2014some potentially awful consequences have been avoided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe have had the submission, the one substantive submission, from the Law Society, which has enabled us to avoid the Government being able to define crime through regulation. I am sure all New Zealanders will be very thankful for that in the future. I wish all bills in this House had the same scrutiny, and, when things appear very simple or very urgent or very important to this Government, I hope it will remember that this bill, which looked so simple, so technical, and was just a piece of housekeeping, actually held within it a small clause that could have had terrible consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWithout that proper scrutiny, this bill would have just passed and we would have had those terrible consequences in place. So I am very pleased to be able to commend this bill to the House, with the good housekeeping having being done. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb565b16815240828281857240caf099\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb565b16815240828281857240caf099\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to rise to take a very short call to add my support for this bill, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill, at its second reading. The problem with the current criminal procedures over the past 20 years could possibly be summarised as being that we have had excessive delay, complexity, an outdated legislative framework, and excessive costs. A lot of members have traversed these matters over the time of the debate of this bill. National believes\u2014and many other members have actually mentioned this\u2014that justice delayed is indeed justice denied. This bill will ensure that timely justice is delivered for victims, witnesses, defendants, and the community. That can only be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe system is clogged and needs to be fixed. These amendments will reduce delay in the District Courts and free up judge time. We expect shorter trials, fewer adjournments, and less delay overall. As someone who has actually been a victim, who had to turn up to court to face the offenders in a court trial, and who knows the frustrations and the stress that happen every time a court case has been delayed, I am very pleased that this is actually happening, because it can only reduce the stress for the victims. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224000b95cc1704edf86d9e736c4a0bdf0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225319a94e10ef4cee9dedd28b9ce4292d\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Criminal Procedure Act 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00227f24958c01414e48bc8060b55474ab20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f24958c01414e48bc8060b55474ab20\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: M\u014Drena. Kia ora t\u0101tou. N\u014D reira, e te Whare, e ng\u0101 iwi, e ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Good morning, honourable members. The debate is on clauses 3 to 17 and schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5d318ba629344eead0d5fe12528b7e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5d318ba629344eead0d5fe12528b7e3\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As we indicated in the second reading just a short while ago, Labour supports this bill, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. This bill makes some very important and very necessary tidying-ups to a very substantial piece of legislation, which has worked its way through this House in a very deliberate, very careful, very considered sort of way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis will be the biggest set of changes to our criminal justice system, to our criminal procedures, in many, many years. It is always important when we are considering big change, particularly to an area as important as the administration of criminal justice, that we get it right and that we take our time to do so. That, as my colleagues have pointed out in their second reading speeches, contrasts with the approach taken to some other legislation by this Government, but on this occasion the Government and the Minister in charge, the Minister for Courts, are doing the right thing and have actually in the process of this particular bill taken time to consider, to listen to, and to accede to the points made by not only members on this side of the House but those who have submitted on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn this part of the bill there are a number of parts that I think are very important. It highlights how, when the House is considering large pieces of legislation and significant legislation, even what might seem to be reasonably trivial aspects of the legislation, when it is passing through the House in its stages, can be overlooked in its first phase. But it is good that there is time to correct the mistakes that have been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge particularly in relation to clause 14A\u2014and this was a change made as a result of the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s consideration of the bill\u2014the power of the judge or the registrar to waive certain fees imposed by the court, particularly in relation to access to documents, and also the provision in clause 14B for the arrangements and provisions for access to court documents. These are very important. These are very important not just for those in the course of a trial or the set-up of a trial\u2014but actually often what happens is an aggrieved defendant considers they have not been dealt with properly, is not sure whether it is appropriate for an appeal, and wants to consider the matter and to get timely access to documents without the obstruction of the risk of fees and charges. With this change they can get access to them. It is good to see that that change has been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen, of course, there is the important provision in this part, clause 15, dealing with the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause that was in the original legislation. That is now gone and this Committee is rightly saying that changes to other legislation, particularly with reference to a term like crime, should properly have the scrutiny and consideration of this House and its proper law-making function, and that appears in here. So we welcome these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe welcome this bill. This is a good piece of legislation, and it has been properly and well considered by the House. We only hope that the example given by this bill might be replicated in other pieces of legislation that are being promoted and pushed through this House by this Government. This stands as a benchmark to be observed and considered in other legislation. It is good that we are able to do that on this occasion even if it is in urgency and even if it is buttered up to more insidious legislation\u2014legislation that poses greater risk to the liberty of the individual and citizens than perhaps posed by the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. The Government and the Minister in charge of the bill are to be acknowledged. They are entitled to have the credit of having managed this piece of legislation and this bill properly to the point that we are now finalising these aspects so that by 1 July we will have a good quality criminal justice system and legislation, which ought to pave the way to reduce delays and provide people with the sort of fairness and procedural fairness that we expect to have in our system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI referred in my speech last night to the Rule of Law Index. New Zealand ranks seventh out of 97 countries that it presently measures for the principle of the rule of law. This legislation keeps us there. Let us not compromise our standing in the international community by rushed pieces of legislation that compromise the rights and liberties of our citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00227bbf08c417904029a9183208ca066dfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bbf08c417904029a9183208ca066dfd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I want to begin by congratulating the Minister in the chair, the Associate Minister of Justice, because I think this is a good piece of legislation, the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. We intend to facilitate this legislation and Part 1 of the bill through the Committee because by so doing in the technical amendments that it is making, the improvements, and the picking-up on one or two things that were wrong with the original bill we will bring into effect the Criminal Procedure Legislation Act in July of this year. That Act will be of considerable assistance to New Zealand. It is designed to reduce excessive cost, excessive delay, and excessive complexity. It will bring in a modern and fit for purpose framework for criminal procedures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAll of those things are important, and I am particularly keen on the legislation going through because its origins came in at the time that I was legislation Minister and then my successors, when we set up the Law Commission to work with the Ministry of Justice. I want to commend officials in both groups because they worked incredibly hard, and I think by and large they got it right. Where the Government did not get it right the Government actually listened and made changes that enabled this legislation and this part of the bill to really attract consensus support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI just want to quote what the Law Society said about that. It argued that cross-party agreement was needed on criminal justice instead of politicising issues that require coherent policy. I think in this part of the bill we have got coherent policy. But the tradition of the Committee stage is that we ask questions of the Minister in the chair. I would not want the Minister to feel that he simply had to just sit there and rubber-stamp everything that happens, so I have a number of questions for the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe first question, Minister, is whether it was helpful that the groundwork for this bill was properly laid by proper process, by thorough analysis, and by careful consultation. Long before the original and primary piece of legislation, the Criminal Procedure Act, was brought in, the homework was done. I think, by and large, people got it right, and this was not a politicised piece of legislation designed simply to appeal and to win some popular support even though, cynically, the Minister or the Government knew that that was not going to make any change. So the first question was how important it was, Minister, that the groundwork was laid, the research was done, the analysis was clear, and the consultation was had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI think, Minister, you will understand why I am asking that question. It is because I cannot help but contrast the way that this piece of legislation and its primary legislation has been done with the legislation rammed through by the narrowest of margins under urgency in the dead of the night last night. So I guess I am asking you, Minister, whether there are lessons to be learnt from this legislation that you would want to see your colleagues apply to the legislation that went through last night, the legislation on the Government Communications Security Bureau and the telecommunications security bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe second question I would like to ask the Minister\u2014and I will just pause because the Minister is occupied at the moment. I do want him to answer these questions, because they are important questions. Minister, what consultation was done with key groups affected by this legislation before it was brought into Parliament? I assume, Minister, that this was not legislation done in ignorance of the views and the expertise and the attitudes of those who were going to be intimately affected by it. I presume that consultation with groups like the New Zealand Law Society and the Criminal Bar Association, the judges, and so on was done very thoroughly so that when you introduced this legislation, you knew the realities on the ground\u2014well, the Chairman probably knew, too, because he is a very well-informed Chairman, but I am referring to the Minister in this case, Mr Chairman. The Minister knew that if legislation is to be good legislation, then he would have to talk to the people who are most intimately affected by it and involved in it, so I imagine that all of those consultations took place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EOf course, if the Minister did that in this bill, can the Minister explain why his colleagues failed to do it in the legislation we had last night affecting telecommunications companies, where they were not consulted and we do not know whether that legislation will even work? I ask this question, drawing on the Minister\u2019s experience on this bill, because he is also the Minister of Corrections, I think\u2014no, he is not. But he is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221074c3f342e4390a875e373b5f4f129\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Shame. He should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba92742f5b54b918d7c3a484be48ea6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: He should be. Who is the Minister of Corrections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fedb73b5f4ca43dcb786d8fe58909ed6\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Anne Tolley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5c4c6b0b964d8893aaf42a3190ca63\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Anne Tolley\u2014oh, I thought she was still the Minister of Education. Judging from the utter chaos that is going on in the education area, I thought she was still the Minister there. But I ask the Minister whether he is also aware of the Corrections Amendment Act, which also affected telecommunications companies, where consultation was not done and the Government had to do a total U-turn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo what I am really asking the Minister is whether he will use his knowledge and his reasonableness to talk to his colleagues and say: \u201CLearn from this legislation, and for heaven\u2019s sake, if we want to build coherent policy and consensus support for it, and we want something that will work, you\u2019ve got to do it the right way.\u201D I fear, Minister, that everything that you have done in this bill and all of the lessons that you have learnt in this bill have not been taken on board at all by your colleagues, including your leader, because if they were listening to this debate now and they were seeing that the Opposition was working cooperatively and constructively with the Government, they would say that this is a good model in a democracy, that this is how democracy should work.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo my next question is whether there was a full and proper select committee process, or did the Minister decide to truncate it to try to ram the legislation through and make it as difficult as possible for experts and for members of the public to have their say on legislation, which is a critical part of the democratic process. From recollection, I recall that there was a full period for submissions, that people were listened to with respect, that the timing was designed to ensure the best possible outcome from the legislation, and I commend you, Minister, for doing that. But I have to ask again why it is that for legislation that is critically intrusive in the privacy of New Zealanders and can open things up for the abuse of power the Government did not allow for that normal process of consultation last night when we moved the motion on the Government Communications Security Bureau legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat I am asking the Minister, really, is whether he will use his experience and his expertise and his proven ability to win the support of all of the groups that will be affected by it and all of the parties in Parliament to persuade his colleagues that they got it so hopelessly and dramatically wrong last night. My question to the Minister is whether he will pass on what his experience has been. My question is whether he will tell the Committee now that the process that he has followed has worked for good legislation, has worked for the interests of the country, and that this should be the model for all legislation that the Government brings through\u2014in particular, for highly controversial legislation where enormous powers are given to largely unaccountable agencies, which can have huge implications for the privacy of New Zealanders and, in the ultimate, the establishment of a State that has powers over its citizens that contradict democratic processes and principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAgain to the Minister, congratulations on this specific piece of legislation and listening to what the Law Society said about the need not to have \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause powers so that you should not have the executive moving by regulations things that are substantive parts of the legislation. The Minister in this case listened to the Law Society and he made those changes. So not only in the primary legislation but also in this largely technical legislation we have seen exhibited time and again the benefits in a democratic society of getting legislation right, of being fully consultative with groups and with political parties, to listening to submissions\u2014because officials are human; they do not get everything right all of the time. So we have got improvements, even in this technical piece of legislation, that will make the passage of this legislation easy, and, most important, will make the outcome for New Zealand a good outcome in having legislation that will not be back before the House and will not be repealed by the new Government that will come in in 2014. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002252dda12e8b08469bb3ac01405e3ef04a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252dda12e8b08469bb3ac01405e3ef04a\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Taloha ni, Mr Chairperson. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to Part 1 of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. I just want to begin where the Hon Phil Goff left off, because the Minister in the chair, the Hon Chester Borrows, is someone who is a very good Minister and someone whom this side of the Chamber respects. I would like to just carry on what Mr Goff said and praise Chester Borrows for the way in which he has tackled this Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill, because it has been absolutely textbook\u2014absolutely textbook. You could not do it any better. If I were the Hon Judith Collins and the Hon Amy Adams, I would be making an appointment with the Hon Chester Borrows just to discuss how the process should work in this New Zealand parliamentary democracy, because the Hon Chester Borrows has done this textbook. He has gone out and he has assessed the situation, he has consulted, and he has put before this House a very good piece of legislation. That went through the select committee scrutiny stage, people submitted and gave their concerns, he listened, the select committee amended the legislation and that has been supported by the Minister, and now this legislation is before the Committee being debated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs you have seen, this is in contrast to the two previous pieces of legislation that were immediately before this Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill. An outbreak of aroha has happened because of the way that this process has been put through this House. If you were watching the House roughly 15 hours ago, you would have seen absolutely robust debate in fierce opposition to the legislation that was going through this House. But now, because of the way that the Hon Chester Borrows has shepherded this legislation through this House in a textbook manner, with cross-party coordination and consultation to make sure that this piece of legislation is fit for purpose, you are seeing that this piece of legislation has very wide support. I did want to just commend the Minister in the chair for the way he has done this, because I think that at least two of his colleagues\u2014at least two of his colleagues\u2014could certainly learn from the way he has shepherded this piece of legislation through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI did want to point to a section of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill that I think will seriously address the issues that the bill sets out to address, and I think Mr Goff pointed out those issues, and that is the seriously excessive costs of the criminal procedure system, the complexity of the criminal procedure system, and also the serious delays that are happening within our court system at the moment. The Justice and Electoral Committee has inserted new clause 14A, I believe, which allows a judge or registrar to waive certain fees if they are satisfied that someone is unable to or should not be required to pay those fees. I think that is certainly something that will help in the process of equality of justice to help get those people, where costs may be a hindrance to them getting a fair trial through the justice system, through the criminal procedure system, much, much more easily. So I did want to commend the Justice and Electoral Committee for that change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAgain, it is one of those changes that have been made with cross-party support, and, again, I did want to commend the Minister in the chair and the chair of the select committee, Scott Simpson, who is someone who should also get some praise for the way that this process has worked. Look at the way that has happened in that select committee process, and the contrast of that in terms of what we are going to see through a truncated select committee process for the two pieces of intelligence legislation that are going through the House at the moment. There is also new clause 14B, which is going to make it much easier for people to access court documents. I think that goes to the heart of addressing the issue of the complexity of the criminal procedure system, where a lot of people who are going through that system were finding it very difficult to manoeuvre their way around the complexity of the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EJust before I finish, I just want to reiterate again and congratulate the Hon Chester Borrows on this textbook manner in which he has done it. There has been assessment, the drafting of appropriate legislation, and the select committee has gone out and listened and made the appropriate amendments, and we believe that the Hon Amy Adams and the Hon Judith Collins should take heed of the process that has been put in place here with the Hon Chester Borrows, and look for some time in his diary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfb3cae785f54a8b9f24ebca7baa246d\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224de7941cdb744ab9ab01e62e407f77d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224de7941cdb744ab9ab01e62e407f77d0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is that Part 2, which is debate on clauses 18 through to 34 and schedule 2, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00221b6dfe5fce1049b783992d04385de41c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b6dfe5fce1049b783992d04385de41c\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I did want to make some brief comments about Part 2, in particular on clause 21, but before doing so I would like to say this. There was, I think quite recently really, a television advertisement for Mainland cheese. Of course, the best cheese does come from the Mainland and this company produced it. The theme in their advertisement was \u201CGood things take time.\u201D, and, indeed, their product was a superb product, and still is, and it did take time. They were very memorable advertisements and what they said, most people believed to be true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIn the case of this particular legislation it has taken time, it has matured properly, it has been considered properly, and we have got a good product. So good things take time\u2014this took time and we get a good piece of legislation out of it, especially with regard to the input of the Law Society and, indeed, the other submitters to the Justice and Electoral Committee. I would like to reiterate also what many others have said, that it is a shame that with the previous legislation we debated\u2014the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill\u2014we are not seeing that. We are not seeing the Government take time. We are not seeing the electorate having the time to make a good and considered submission on that legislation as it has on this. So that is a matter of considerable regret. We can easily agree to legislation of this kind, which has been well considered, and, of course, it cannot be expected that any of the Opposition parties would be prepared to support the sort of process we saw yesterday with the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EHowever, I did particularly want to mention one clause in Part 2. The reason I do so is because in the first reading I questioned clause 21, which amends section 8, and that concerns \u201CJurisdiction in respect of crimes on ships or aircraft beyond New Zealand\u201D. This provision would replace section 8(2) with two new provisions. The first providing that \u201CIf a person does or omits to do any act to which this section applies, and that act or omission would, if it occurred within New Zealand, be an offence \u2026 punishable by imprisonment for life or by 2 or more years\u2019 imprisonment, then \u2026 the person is liable on conviction as if the act or omission had occurred in New Zealand.\u201D That is fine. The second, however, provides that \u201CIf any proceedings are taken by virtue of the jurisdiction conferred by this section, it is a defence to prove that the act or omission would not have been an offence under the law of the country of which the person charged was a national or citizen at the time of the act or omission, if it had occurred in that country.\u201D So that means that a New Zealand citizen would potentially be treated quite differently from the national or citizen of another country for the same offence in the same circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI questioned at the select committee stage whether that was appropriate, and it did receive proper consideration. The officials were able to satisfy me that this was not really a change at all, that it was, and has been for some time, a provision in New Zealand law and would be consistent with the legal systems of other countries, and that it would be unwise not to have such a provision in our own statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI just wanted to mention that, as I said at the beginning, these sorts of provisions need to be scrutinised. We need to get them right, we need to understand, indeed, what we are doing and make sure that they are correct and proper provisions. So, as I said, good things do take time. We have scrutinised that provision, along with the others. We have satisfied ourselves that it is the right law and therefore it deserves support. I just thought I would place on record, having raised my concern at the first reading, that that concern has now been allayed and I am satisfied that this provision is good and proper and should be passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022927a265f68854dad89930078a2d08f6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022927a265f68854dad89930078a2d08f6a\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take just a brief call on this point. I appreciate that this part of the Criminal Procedure Legislation Bill deals with a gallimaufry of changes to a range of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022718e9d68495b459ca44c2ee070c78ea9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s unparliamentary!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55e5c5fc57e41d5b47d349746cff8b6\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The last time I used that word the Hansard transcribers got it absolutely correct, so good on them. You will have to look in your dictionary. You can download dictionary apps on your iPhone very easily these days, so there should be no excuse. It simply means a diverse range of things\u2014a gallimaufry. A bit like this House\u2014we are a gallimaufry Parliament. Some have described us in other terms, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229044080fbac2417baa497081858809e0\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does that extend to Aaron Gilmore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe100e75604440f49d505db46ab3b020\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: We are one less gallimaufry down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ETo go back to the point I was making before I was distracted by my colleagues, this part of the bill deals with a diverse range of changes to other legislation. If I could put it in simple terms, this is again part of the perfecting and refining of our criminal justice procedures. That is good and that is welcome. I note, for example, that clause 27C deals with witness anonymity. If there is to be a trial involving a witness that is the subject of an anonymity order, then that trial is to be held at the High Court. That is entirely appropriate. It properly deals with the gravity of that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI said in a contribution yesterday on this bill that\u2014and I know from talking to many lawyers\u2014many members of the criminal bar are welcoming these changes. There is a sense of trepidation, of course, that goes with it, but they think that this is a coherent set of measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is one set of lawyers who are not so welcoming of it, and they are the ones who are having to travel further distances to court for their court matters and their trials because of the number of courts that have been closed down. In small courts in rural and provincial areas, in what were once upon a time places where the local legal fraternity knew that there were sitting days and there were days when they could conduct their court matters\u2014including, in most of the cases affected, District Court trials\u2014that cannot now happen. Those lawyers and their clients are having to travel further distances, as, indeed, are the witnesses, including the police witnesses. So I simply make that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is good that we get our criminal procedures right, but we need also to make sure that the fora, the courts, and the places where we conduct arguably one of the most important functions of our justice system\u2014that is, the administration of our penal code\u2014are accessible to people and that people do not, in addition to having to either defend themselves against accusations or, if they choose to plead guilty, put themselves before the mercy of the court, have that compounded by the fact that the court now might be some considerable distance away. The Minister in the chair, the Minister of Courts, is entitled to significant bouquets for the way that he has handled this legislation, but there are some brickbats concealed in those bunches of roses because of the fact that there will be some people who will find it more difficult to get access to courts to avail themselves of the procedures that we are correcting, improving, and brushing up on in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn that note, I once again reiterate that we are supportive of the bill and of this legislation, and of anything that will make access to and the administration of our criminal justice system easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2eb48170c3d460f8f5ab281ef44dab7\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000115\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Chester Borrows to schedule 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000116\u0022\u003Edelete the item relating to section 191. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000117\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000118\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220565b9dafac40e4b802b4584ab55993\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6f3d74e414a4b2ba8e49d2c7a47a226\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b9f03fa130349cd8c48dcd90eea036a\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000122\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill, the Auctioneers Amendment Bill, the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 2), the Criminal Disclosure Amendment Bill, the Evidence Amendment Bill, the Juries Amendment Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill, and the Summary Offences Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 233.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000123\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000124\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c16bedf84cfc43afb17813b31a46b8f0\u0022\u003EPrisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e239c2e08254b09a63756dd916fc831\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00227064a2576ae747b088ba82ccec83a170\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227064a2576ae747b088ba82ccec83a170\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice) on behalf of the Minister of Justice:\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. Let me first extend my thanks to the Justice and Electoral Committee for its work on this bill. The committee received seven submissions on the bill and has recommended that it proceed without amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill makes three main changes to the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Act 2005. First, it repeals the sunset clauses in the Act so that the Act will no longer effectively expire. Second, it makes a small change in the civil limitation periods for victim claims, for their benefit. Third, it clarifies that the Act applies to unlawful detention claims. The Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Act 2005 provides for awards of financial compensation to be made to prisoners only in extraordinary circumstances where no other remedy is deemed appropriate. Prisoners are also required to make use of the existing complaint mechanisms that are available to them, before they seek compensation through the courts. If financial compensation is awarded to a prisoner, or if a settlement agreement is entered into, the Act requires that deductions are made to pay any legal aid debt in relation to the claim, any outstanding reparation, and any earlier orders in favour of victims. The Act then allows victims of the prisoners to claim against the money through a simplified victims\u2019 claims process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWithout this bill the Act would effectively expire. The statutory guidelines and restrictions on awarding compensation and deductions and the simplified victims\u2019 claims process would no longer apply to prisoners\u2019 claims lodged from 1 July 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe bill will ensure that the judiciary has clear guidance on the circumstances in which Parliament intends that compensation should be available to prisoners. This will avoid any potential inconsistency. The bill will also ensure that victims continue to have first claim against any such compensation awards to prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe Act responded to community concerns that offenders should not receive financial compensation for wrongful treatment without first having to redress the harm that they themselves have caused to victims. The simplified victims\u2019 claims process does not create any new rights for victims to bring claims. The victims always have the option of bringing a civil claim against their offenders. However, the victims\u2019 claims process provides an easy and cost-effective way for them to do so in circumstances where the prisoner has the means to pay at least some of the damages due to the victim and while the Crown has control of that money. The bill also ensures that victims will not be disadvantaged by any administrative delays that stop the clock on the civil limitation period for victims\u2019 claims while the Ministry of Justice assesses the level of deductions to be made, such as for legal aid payments, and, where necessary, resolves disputes about these amounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill includes a clarification for the avoidance of doubt that the Act applies to prisoners\u2019 claims of unlawful detention. These claims arise from time to time, generally when a prisoner is held beyond their statutory release date due to an administrative error. It always has been the intent and practice that unlawful detention claims, like other breaches of prisoners\u2019 rights, be subject to the Act. The best way to prevent compensation payments is to ensure that abuse does not occur. Prison mistreatment will not and should not be tolerated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI would like to reiterate that the Government has great confidence in the ongoing integrity and professionalism of corrections staff working in New Zealand prisons. However, if breaches do occur, it is important that we have a fair and appropriate regime that balances the rights of prisoners and their victims. This bill provides for the continuation of that regime. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd42023f25614b2eaad9f4241f1ed10f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd42023f25614b2eaad9f4241f1ed10f\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to speak on the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. This legislation had its genesis in the previous Labour Government. It was a response to a very precise, very confined situation where a group of prisoners, because of the way they had been treated by the prison system, made a claim under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act under the precedent case\u2014the Baigent case\u2014and, as a consequence of that, were awarded damages. These were criminals who had committed crimes of a very serious nature, and they were criminals whose victims would not at the time of the trial and conviction of those prisoners have ever thought that there was any value in pursuing a civil claim against those prisoners. They had no claim for personal injury, but they might have had a claim for exemplary damages for their conduct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat has always been the nature of our criminal justice system and the victims of it. But that was a different situation, where prisoners had won significant damages as a consequence of what had happened to them while they were incarcerated. It was simply repugnant to the community\u2019s notion of justice that people who had inflicted considerable harm and injury on other citizens should, because of the circumstances of their incarceration, achieve a windfall gain, whereas their victims got nothing apart from their entitlements from the accident compensation scheme and any other State-funded assistance they got. So it was absolutely correct for the Government of the day to pass legislation to correct that obvious injustice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENone of that is to say\u2014as I think the Associate Minister of Justice said in his opening speech\u2014that we do not strive to ensure that our corrections system, our system of incarceration, is one that does not lead to abuse of those who are being incarcerated, those who are in the Crown\u2019s custody serving out a punishment. We must do that, but it would be wrong for those who are harmed by the Crown in the course of being penalised by the Crown to then gain a windfall, when citizens who are the victims of those who gained that windfall should have no claim at all. I have no personal difficulty with a regime that provides a greater sense of justice for victims and a signal to all other citizens that the person who has caused a victim harm, damage, or death should not be the beneficiary of some greater claim in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this law was very important, and it was very important that it should spell out that the courts require that in the event of a future claim by prisoners who are claiming abuse in the prison system, they should exhaust other sources of remedy. They should go to the Ombudsman or they should go to the system within the Department of Corrections and utilise those forums before they seek redress in the courts. It is also right that we should ensure that we have an effective mechanism to ensure that any abuse of power in prisons is properly redressed. If there are concerns about the existing regime that we have, then let us hear those concerns and let us consider what may need to be done. It is only part of our obligations as an international citizen that we ensure that those who are incarcerated by the State are not subject to abuse and torture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EHaving said all that\u2014and we will support this legislation\u2014I want to place on record our concerns, and the first is that the original legislation was time limited. It was assumed that there would be, and it was intended that there would be, a review of the sort of regime that would deal with victims\u2019 rights and with what happens to prisoners\u2014but, most important, with victims\u2019 rights. Indeed, in one of the more recent renewals of the legislation, of the continuations of it, an undertaking was given by the Government of the day\u2014this Government\u2014that there would be a review and that other parties would be consulted on it. I have to say\u2014and it may not be the fault of the Hon Chester Borrows, who moved the second reading motion\u2014that the reality is that none of that happened. There has been no consultation with other parties and there has been no review. So we are now stuck with a piece of legislation that was designed to deal with a specific situation, a specific injustice perceived by the community, which raised issues about the broader justice system but, most important, raised issues about our system, our regime, of victims\u2019 rights. That work still remains to be done to ensure that we have a system of victims\u2019 rights that is robust and that respects the various positions and standings of the parties concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are some alternatives. There are some who argue that the provisions in this bill should be extended to any windfall gain that a prisoner gets, whether it is a bequest as a result of a family member\u2019s death, a win in Lotto\u2014although quite how a prisoner incarcerated at the time could buy Lotto tickets defies explanation to me\u2014or any other windfall gain. I do not go that far, but what I do say is that a more progressive and comprehensive system of justice that is looking firmly at victims\u2019 rights might say that there are different ways of approaching it, and that redress can be provided to victims once a penal sentence has been served. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn most cases, in the majority of cases, prisoners\u2014those who are doing serious time\u2014will get to a point where they have done their last penal servitude and they get released. Because of a progressively changing corrections system, we are now getting people back in the community without recidivism. They do not repeat their crimes. It is not too much to say of those who have caused significant harm and damage to others that they may have an ongoing responsibility through their future earnings to provide support and assistance to those to whom they have caused that harm. I do not think it is beyond the realms of a broader system of justice to look at something along those lines. There may be a trade-off in the length of sentences if, indeed, somebody, having served a sentence, goes into paid work and as part of their contribution to the community makes amends for the harm they have done and has a further surcharge on their earnings to make good the damage they have done to their victims. I do not think it is beyond us to do that. That would be fair. It could be considered at the time a judge is considering the sentence. It is a matter that could be followed up and could continue to be administered by either the corrections system or, indeed, the Inland Revenue Department\u2014on which we are about to spend $1.5 billion on a computer system that should be able to handle at least that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe support this legislation because it continues its confined approach to a confined problem, but it does not answer the real problem, which is a broader answer to the need for a comprehensive regime, a cohesive regime, of victims\u2019 rights in order to compensate those victims who have suffered harm beyond personal injury, which is compensated for through our accident compensation scheme, and who have suffered other harm and damages as well that ought properly to be compensated for. Leaving in place this system makes that a lottery, because the victim can recover compensation only if the perpetrator of the crime or violence against them is somebody who suffers their own violence in prison at the hands of the prison system. That, as we know, does not happen to every prisoner. It happens to a very small percentage of them\u2014in fact, a very small number, as was evidenced in the particular case that triggered this legislation, the Taunoa case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe do not want a victims\u2019 rights regime that is essentially a lottery system; we need one that is based on coherent and considered thought. Coherent and considered thought has not gone into this legislation. It is simply being rolled over, with some clarifying amendments. It does not address the fundamental problem. That was the undertaking given by this Government when it rolled this legislation over the last time. It has not fulfilled that undertaking. Even though this is an open-ended piece of legislation now, I prevail upon this Government and the Minister, who is in the House, to take seriously the wish from all sides of the House to get and have in place a sensible system of victims\u2019 rights, in order to put to bed once and for all the repeated claims of injustice being suffered by victims. Notwithstanding all that, we will support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00228dd7bfa20948454289d935cd4fbf4cb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dd7bfa20948454289d935cd4fbf4cb1\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and take a brief call in support of this Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill in its second reading. At the outset I would like to acknowledge the support from the previous speaker, Andrew Little, on behalf of the Labour Party, which is going to support this good piece of legislation. Of course, the purpose of this bill is to make the restrictions on awards of compensation and the victims\u2019 claims process in the principal Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Act 2005 permanent. As Andrew Little said, it is\u2014and I am sure he did not mean to make a pun\u2014a confined solution to a confined problem, and it is a good solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EMr Little talked a little about the\u2014I did not mean that. I did not mean that, actually; it is early in the morning. Mr Little did say in his presentation that a review should have taken place. Well, of course, there is not much need for a review when a system and a piece of legislation are working very well. The Government, I am very pleased to say, is satisfied that this scheme is working well. The scheme represents our commitment to victims and the focus upon victims, who are, of course, participants in our criminal justice system completely as a result of other people\u2019s actions and not their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that I am part of, and we are committed to ensuring that victims are supported and the scheme that we are supporting today achieves that endeavour. We make no apology at all for focusing our justice system on the rights of victims. It is right and appropriate that we should do that. As chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee I was very pleased with the way the committee worked through our deliberations on this bill. The committee received seven submissions and recommended that the bill proceed without amendment. I speak in support of the bill. It is a good bill. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002291075130eeef4e059e30cfab1a7ee8a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291075130eeef4e059e30cfab1a7ee8a4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. There was an unfortunate complacency, I think, in Mr Simpson\u2019s speech when he said that the scheme was working well and is looking after victims. I beg to differ. I beg to differ from the perspective of one who introduced this legislation in the first place and had it legislated through Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe reason I put a sunset clause in the legislation back in 2005 was that I wanted to review the scheme to see that it was doing much more than just being a stopgap measure against windfall profits arising out of the Taunoa case. I wanted to be sure that victims were properly compensated by those who offended against them horrendously when the criminal offender was in a position to provide that compensation. As it works out, the legislation probably had a prohibitive effect in terms of some gold-mining lawyers on behalf of some really hard-core criminals, but it has not raised a lot of money for victims. I think it was about $45,000, from memory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere seemed to me to be a lot of people\u2014not just the vicious blue-collar criminals who were never compensating their victims, but another whole category of criminals. These, Mr Simpson, are the people the National Party knows better\u2014the rich and the powerful, the reckless and the greedy. [Interruption] They are the white-collar criminals\u2014Tau Henare knows exactly whom I am talking about\u2014who rip off people\u2019s life-savings. The member will have, as I have in my electorate, people who have lost their entire life-savings because of the greed and the recklessness and the criminality of people who might have gone to King\u2019s College, who have big houses on Paritai Drive, and who have all the privileges in life but are criminals nevertheless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI say that when those rich and powerful and privileged criminals rip off people of their life-savings, you cannot just put them in jail for 2 years, allow them to protect their savings in family trusts, and then let them come out of jail and get on with their high lifestyles while their victims go to their graves penniless because they ripped them off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI say that absolutely nothing in this legislation addresses that class of criminal\u2014absolutely nothing. And yet we have seen, in the last 5 years, time and again, people like Petricevic, or whatever his name is\u2014he ripped off people in the 1980s, and ripped them off again in the 21st century\u2014who get out of jail after a while and are living the high lifestyle. They stole not bits and pieces out of houses like burglars do; they stole hundreds of millions of dollars. They did not steal because they were underprivileged; they stole because they were greedy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d3d3891e10d401b8fc0027f67d7d0f3\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: What did your Government do while it was happening? Sat there and twiddled their thumbs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84514c73e97432d9e047e1583da684b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and yet they get away with a situation where they never pay their dues, Minister. They never pay their dues to society. The reason that I put a sunset clause in the legislation was not simply to stop windfall gains for people who are rotten criminals who never gave any compensation to their victims. That is why I did it in the first instance, but I put the review clause in to ensure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221244b539ead145caaeff3bcb1368254e\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: That Labour Government did nothing\u2014watched it happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e540981f7aa447729c35d7e9693891da\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I hope the Minister will take a call to explain herself and justify herself, because the sunset clause was there so there would be a review, so that you, Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c895f413cb374b04a029cc534981ac7f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. There are interjections taking place between members who do not have the call, and that is out of order. I know Mr Goff is making a strong, robust speech, but that does not mean that members from this side and that side can interject on each other. If you want to interject on Mr Goff, that is fine, but not on each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213d785a23014f70a7f6bbd5897a3175\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: It is really sad that over these debates, time and again, members on the Government side fail to take a call and do not show the \u201Cintestitudinal\u201D fortitude\u2014I think that is a word for guts\u2014to get up and debate the bill, but they will sit in their seats and interject continually. What I am saying to the Minister who was interjecting is that the sunset clause was for a review so that we could see how we could get this legislation working better for victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E The legislation has expired a number of times. Did the Government ever use the opportunity to be imaginative, to show its commitment and its determination to support the rights of victims by getting a piece of legislation that dealt not with a tiny minority of cases in prison\u2014cases where the corrections department got it wrong and was forced to pay compensation\u2014but with the wider spectrum of criminal offenders who never set things right for their victims? I am a strong believer in restorative justice. What restorative justice means is that the offender sets things right for the victims. My colleague next to me, Mr Sio, knows the system of ifoga in Samoa, which is based on a person showing remorse and trying to put things right for the victim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39a1c2f03e04d6190188151b11e224b\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Say sorry for breaking the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1c49ad1264f48028fe612ee76ad35e1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Lotu-Iiga will know that system. He should know about it. In terms of restorative justice, it is really important that the offender shows remorse\u2014genuine remorse\u2014but that is not very concrete. What is concrete is whether the offender is able to make a reparation payment. It is too often the case with our offenders that they come from dysfunctional backgrounds, they have no savings, and they have no income. When they are locked up in prison, they have no ability to pay, and in most cases victims get nothing back from their offenders. That is a fact of life. You cannot get blood out of a stone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat you can do if there is a windfall profit by an offender, such as through the compensation cases that followed Taunoa, and if they have got money, is you can get it and you can give to the victim. Or if somebody wins Lotto in prison\u2014you know, they are sitting on a million dollars and they have done grievous damage to their victims\u2014then they should be required to make a payment when they are able to. That is common sense. That is justice in the real meaning of the word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe reason why I focused before on the white-collar offender was that after the global financial crisis, which revealed the recklessness and the greed of those white-collar offenders, a number of them have ended up in prison, and they are the very people who could be required to make compensation, maybe not at the time they are in prison but thereafter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere are people who were in prison in the 1980s and who are now very wealthy businessmen again. Have they ever done anything to set things right for their victims? The answer is no. They are back sipping their cocktails, living in their mansions, driving their flash cars, when they have driven other people into poverty at the end of their lives. I resent that. I deeply resent that. I resent it because I have represented constituents who have been placed in that situation\u2014worked hard all their lives to get their savings, and maybe somewhat naively put their money in particular institutions that were not sufficiently blue-chip. But they did it in good faith. They believed the promises that were made. They had their savings ripped off, and the people who did it to them never paid their dues. Although we will support this legislation reluctantly because those who get windfall profits in one way\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d76b49fb36c4f96b1e8774484d5bf51\u0022\u003EScott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: After all that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228edaeeb43a38409b801465fba55e8acd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Simpson, you should have listened. That is one of your problems as a new member. You have not learnt to listen yet. The Government could have done more than simply raise $45,000 for victims. It could have raised tens of millions of dollars to be paid back to victims if it had been imaginative in the sort of legislation it put through. It could have got those white-collar criminals who ripped off their fellow citizens to pay their dues. It could have got them to indulge in restorative justice and set things right for those who have suffered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo my objection to this legislation is that it does not go anywhere near far enough. It is faint-hearted. It lacks imagination. Members on that side of the House do not live up to the rhetoric they use on the campaign trail when they say that they stand up for victims. This legislation does nothing for most victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220af8a9a630149439a10ffbdf0403b95\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s weak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022054a853622e04d849908bea97d15d8e3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: It is weak. It does not do what the Government could have done if there had been a proper review, if it had worked through the options, and if it had got its officials working hard in the 4 years that it has had in Government to actually put something in place that would see a far wider extension of looking after the victims, ensuring restorative justice, and ensuring that people who rip off others are required to put things right when they are in the position to do so. On all of those measures, this legislation fails, and that is why every member of the Government has got their head down at the moment, because they know the truth of what I am saying. This is weak legislation. It could have been much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6bf9ac21ac140c6872c2eafe2859309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6bf9ac21ac140c6872c2eafe2859309\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is a little bit like Groundhog Day. There is a very strong sense of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu in yet again standing to speak to prisoner and victim matters and the latest iteration of this legislation, the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. We have had a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ca6370eca404ce9bcb9ca81b4e83223\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s got yesterday\u2019s date on the wall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ff659c6a9214ca294c4d78ef5e229e7\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed it has, yes. That will be part of the problem, I am sure. The principal piece of legislation was first put into place in 2005 as a stopgap measure, as a response to the political necessities of the time, perhaps, in order to endeavour to placate, perhaps, a very rowdy minority in the public who were objecting to some of the actions that were being taken. Mr Goff just spoke, and I must say I am somewhat puzzled to hear such powerful objections to this legislation from the Labour side. I look forward to those members switching their vote and actually opposing this legislation in line with the speeches they are making. This legislation has not worked. It has not been effective in returning value to victims, and, fundamentally, it denies human rights. It is an abrogation of human rights. It is not acceptable in a country that, as we have heard this morning, rates very highly in terms of our commitment to the rule of law, and where we rate ourselves as being a country where corruption is not seen and where we respect and honour everybody\u2019s human rights. This legislation is an offence to that, and we will continue to oppose it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe fundamental intention of this legislation is to deny restitution to people whose human rights, whose basic rights, may be abused while they are in the custody of the State. We have seen instances of that where, indeed, prisoners and inmates were actually tortured over extended periods under the behaviour management regime that led to the Taunoa proceedings. The court found very clearly and made very strong rulings that the treatment of those men was absolutely unacceptable in a country that calls itself civilised and a country that commits to human rights. It is unacceptable, and this legislation is equally unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think that the notion that the public was demanding that prisoners, inmates, and people who have offended ought not to receive any restitution is not based on particularly strong evidence. It is clear that there was a very punitive approach in the air in the mid-2000s, and to some extent that still prevails, but you have to scratch only an inch below the surface in talking to members of the public, in talking to NGOs, and reading the public pulse. People are more intelligent than that. They understand that people do not lose their human rights simply because they have offended and because they have been imprisoned. If we are truly committed to that, then everybody should be entitled to restitution if their rights are abused while they are probably the most vulnerable people in our society, those who are in the custody and the care\u2014I use the word loosely\u2014of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EMr Borrows, the Associate Minister of Justice, in introducing this second reading pointed out that we have a solution available to us. If we do not want to see inmates receiving compensation for abuse, let us create an environment where those abuses will not occur. It really is as simple as that. We do not need this particularly vicious piece of legislation; we simply need to ensure that our prison system is run in a humane manner, that it is run in a just manner, that human rights are respected and maintained, and that even minor transgressions of human rights are not accepted, so that this sort of legislation need never be triggered. It is not beyond our wit to create a corrections system where prisoners\u2019 rights are protected and maintained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI have to acknowledge that there is some good work being done in the corrections system and the corrections area. The new Chief Executive Officer of the Department of Corrections, Ray Smith\u2014not so new now\u2014is working very hard to change the culture, and he is having some success in that. But he is trying to steer a very cumbersome, very complex, very slow-moving vessel, trying to take it to a better place, and we are nowhere near there yet, I would have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think we need only look at some recent examples. A senior corrections officer is quoted today in one of the papers\u2014I think the Dominion Post\u2014as saying that the management of maximum-security prisoners is constantly evolving to better assist prisoners towards a crime-free future. I am afraid that that is rather an idealistic and simply an unsustainable proposition, given, for example, what is currently happening in D Block, the maximum-security block at P\u0101remoremo, at Auckland prison, where for a period of some 3 months, over this very hot summer we have had, prisoners in the maximum-security block were denied outdoor exercise. For 3 months those men did not get in the fresh air, did not get sunshine on them. Imagine what that does to people\u2019s mental and physical health\u2014being denied for over 3 months that minimum requirement of simply 1 hour in the fresh air. That is completely unacceptable. What is that going to do to their attitude, to their level of tension, the level of stress within that already fairly volatile environment that is a maximum-security wing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAs we speak, for the last 6 or 8 weeks, prisoners in D Block have been washing their clothes in buckets because the laundry facilities have been removed and have not yet been replaced with new laundry facilities. If they send their laundry to other wings, only half of it comes back. That has been confirmed by the acting manager of the prison. They do not have that fundamental, very basic, and simple assurance that their personal property will actually be secure and returned to them. As a result, we had an entirely unsatisfactory situation where prisoners were endeavouring to clean their clothes and their bedding in buckets of water without so much as soap or soap powder being issued to them. That is an unacceptable situation in the 21st century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAre we trying to stir up more stress in our prisons? Are we trying to increase the frustration levels of these already volatile men by depriving them of those basic human dignities of clean laundry and a breath of fresh air for 1 hour out of every 24 hours? Are we deliberately trying to create situations where we will get outbursts of violence in our prisons? Mr Kim Workman, who made submissions to the Justice and Electoral Committee in February this year\u2014a man with an extraordinary depth and range of knowledge about our prison systems\u2014made the point that prisons will be made safe when prisoners observe that they are being treated fairly and decently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAnybody who believes that our prisons are holiday camps clearly has never been inside one. Prisoners do not expect to be coddled. They know they are not there to enjoy themselves. They accept that. But prisoners also know what is reasonable, what is fair, what the minimum legal requirements are, and what the minimum requirements are in terms of human rights. And we are not meeting those requirements. A safe prison is one where prisoners feel that at least their basic humanity is recognised, that they are being treated fairly. That environment becomes safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EMr Workman went on\u2014and I am paraphrasing him here; I am not quoting him directly\u2014to make the point that we have a very poor culture and a very poor environment historically in our prisons, and one day if we do not do something to do better, our prisons will blow up and we will not know what struck us. We are seeing already expressions of that. Over the last 12 to 18 months there have been five or six quite serious incidents in our prisons, at Rangip\u014D prison, at Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Prison, at P\u0101remoremo prison. These are becoming quite commonplace. The Department of Corrections\u2019 response to the latest at Rangip\u014D prison, for example, was to actually deny that it was a riot, despite the fact that 11 men were involved and 11 men were relocated. We are seeing these constant incidents, quite serious incidents, occurring in large part because we are failing to create a safe and humane environment in our prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe legislation that is being advanced today embeds this extraordinary proposition that prisoners should not be eligible for restitution if the State violates their human rights, even to the extent of physical abuse and torture\u2014nevertheless, prisoners ought not to receive compensation for that. This legislation that we are making permanent today does nothing to make our prisons safer. It will do virtually nothing to protect or enhance the rights of victims. We need to have a comprehensive review of how we can assure that victims of crime in New Zealand are treated as well as we can treat them, that the offence against them is made good, and that the emotional, the physical, and the mental trauma they suffer is remedied to the extent that we can do that. This legislation does nothing. It is silent on that. There is no means in this legislation to protect victims beyond the most superficial, perhaps, way that could be possibly imagined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe need, as was promised and intended in 2005, to look at the rights of victims, remembering also that many of our offenders, many of the people in our prisons, are themselves offended against. That cycle of being the victim and being the offender is one we need to break. We need to address that, and we can do that by intervening intelligently, humanely, and thoughtfully. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u002263213a0730b54c56a98d43551d6f50f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263213a0730b54c56a98d43551d6f50f8\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand a little concerned at that last speech by the member from the Green Party because what it is telling ordinary New Zealanders is that all we have heard over the last 5 minutes or so is about the rights of the prisoners and not about the rights of the victims. We all know that incarceration on its own is not enough to deal with the issues of recidivist offending. But what we do know in this Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill is that there needs to be a balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EIf the previous speaker knew the intent of restorative justice, it is about balancing the rights and the responsibilities of both the victims and the offenders, and that is exactly what this bill is intending to do. It is taking responsibility for the things that have been offended. The previous speaker, Mr Clendon, talked about how many of us may not have been in prison. Well, I have been in prison. I know that many of my colleagues have been there to see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f165eecf174aabac864ebae5a16b5e\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What did you do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022955ff2c5b9e64d79b22a715c6bc6efb0\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO\u003C/span\u003E: In prison to visit, may I qualify that statement, to visit\u2014to visit. I actually was taking some pastoral care there. In helping to support, I understand the issues of those who are in that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e11fa7ef034cd0b4d61a98a96ef5fa\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Go back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef6bdc2c996f499b872fa6437fb20c92\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO\u003C/span\u003E: What this bill is trying to do\u2014yes, I will go back to the point that I want to make. I want also to commend Mr Little, who said a lot about the balance in this bill. That is what this bill is intending to do. I commend this bill. It is taking a balance between the rights of the victims but also the responsibility of the offenders. That is what this bill is intending to do. I commend this bill. It is a good bill. I commend the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee. It is a small bill, but it is powerful. It is a little, but it is a lot. Thank you. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a90873e263f44c0c9b3c817871261c97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a90873e263f44c0c9b3c817871261c97\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill re-enacts the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Act 2005 so that it will continue in force beyond the extended sunset date of 1 July 2013. The restrictions upon the award of compensation to prisoners by the court and the process by which a prisoner\u2019s victims can claim from an award are now to be made permanent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI am pleased to be able to say that the Justice and Electoral Committee has conducted a rigorous examination of the bill as introduced, and New Zealand First is pleased to see that a number of needed changes have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe principles that New Zealand First considered in relation to this legislation\u2014and many submitters have covered these too\u2014included, firstly, that being a prisoner means being penalised only by the temporary removal of personal liberty and by incarceration. It does not mean anything more than that. Prisoners must have the opportunity for rehabilitation, education, and reorientation in the direction of their life if that is at all achievable. Secondly, it does not result in the loss of other rights. That means that it does not result in the loss of the right to compensation for genuine injury or disability from genuine accidents, because they can happen in prison just as easily as they can happen anywhere else. It does not mean the loss of the right to compensation for significant mistreatment should that occur. I agree with my friend Mr Clendon, who pointed out some of those sorts of circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI also took Kim Workman\u2019s submission very seriously because he did make a very important submission to the committee. He said that we should take into account the need for a good prison culture and that good process encourages good behaviour inside and outside prison, and will lead to fewer assaults within the prison, fewer suicides, and so on\u2014generally better behaviour by prisoners. He also said that vexatious claims were few in number\u2014and I agree\u2014and that other prisoners dislike troublemakers and have their own effect in suppressing vexatious claims. So those things also need to be taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, the rights protected in this way must be balanced against the fact that there is concern in the community that some prisoners abuse some of those rights, especially the right to compensation for mistreatment and especially in regard to accident compensation. Those are genuinely held concerns, as we heard in the submission process. We must give proper attention to them even if cases of abuse of rights by prisoners are rare. We certainly should not mollycoddle prisoners and we should make sure that there are no rorts like those we have seen in recent times by a few prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First accepts that there is a need also for an accessible process for the victims of a prisoner to be provided for claims against any award made to a prisoner. That is the fundamental purpose of this legislation. We think that victims\u2019 rights have been seen almost as second-class rights for far too long. This bill pays proper attention to that, and creates a clear right and an easily accessible process for a victim to claim against an award made to a prisoner. That achieves an appropriate balance that protects the rights of prisoners on the one hand and also meets community expectations that prisoners\u2019 compensation be accessible to their victims to meet the properly awarded claims made by those victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Government, I understand, originally wanted a fund to hold the proceeds of all compensation awarded for victims, who would then have the right to claim against it. But that was clearly impracticable and has been replaced by the better provisions now in the bill for a victim to claim against an award made to the prisoner who committed a crime against that victim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESome submitters have also said that the courts had pre-empted this bill in the Taunoa v Attorney-General case and that therefore the bill is not needed at all. They thought that codification of restrictions on claims made by prisoners may mean that the law would not be developed or refined further. However, against that, codification provides certainty and consistency in the law. Parliament does need to set out what the scope for claims made by prisoners should be, and it does not mean that the courts may not develop the law within the scope of the Act. Again, the Kim Workman submission was very relevant. He pointed out that codification helps both prisoners and victims to understand their rights. So, on balance, I believe that it is right that this process and these rights should now be codified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESection 13(1) of the principal Act sets out the essence of these issues. It says: \u201CNo court or tribunal may, \u2026 award any compensation \u2026 unless satisfied that\u2014(a) the plaintiff has made reasonable use of all of the specified internal and external complaints mechanisms reasonably available to him or her to complain about the act or omission on which the claim is based, but has not obtained in relation to that act or omission redress that the court or Tribunal considers effective; and (b) another remedy, \u2026 cannot provide, \u2026 redress that the court or Tribunal considers effective.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI think that is the essence of the issue, but, of course, there needs to be some guidance as to how that is assessed, and section 14 provides for that. Amongst other things, it says that the considerations are \u201Cthe extent \u2026 to which the plaintiff, \u2026 took, within a reasonable time, all reasonably practicable steps to mitigate loss or damage\u201D and also \u201Cwhether the defendant\u2019s breach of, or interference with, the right concerned was deliberate or in bad faith; \u2026 the relevant conduct of the plaintiff;\u201D\u2014the prisoner, in other words\u2014\u201C\u2026 the consequences for the plaintiff of the breach, \u2026 the freedoms, interests, liberties, principles, or values recognised and protected by the right concerned; and\u201D\u2014importantly, I think\u2014\u201C\u2026 any need to emphasise the importance of, or deter other breaches of or other interferences with, the right concerned;\u201D. That is where I thought the Kim Workman submission was very appropriate. It goes on to give other considerations, which include \u201Cthe extent \u2026 to which effective redress in relation to that act or omission has been, or could be, provided otherwise than by compensation;\u201D\u2014again, an important issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESo, taking all that into account, New Zealand First considers that the bill now achieves the correct balance that I have spoken of and that prisoners\u2019 rights will be preserved but will be appropriately restricted in the claims that they bring. More important, and finally, the victims of crime will have a clear right and process to make claims against any award that the committer of the crime against them has received, and that is as it should be. The victim should have the first claim against that money. The prisoner who committed a crime can only expect that he or she must first compensate the victim before benefiting from any compensation themselves. So for all those reasons New Zealand First will vote for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb2d62bb90dc43a6a5b939170db02879\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb2d62bb90dc43a6a5b939170db02879\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a very short and succinct call to support the second reading of the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. Actually, following on from Denis O\u2019Rourke, the New Zealand First speaker, it was refreshing to see that he used the word \u201Cvictim\u201D far more than the Green speaker, who did not, I believe, use the word \u201Cvictim\u201D at all, but seemed to concentrate mainly on the rights of prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis is actually about having a fair and balanced system. It is just making the current regime permanent. It is putting victims at the heart of the justice system. It has stronger emphasis on victims, not prisoners, but it is a balance between the rights of offenders and the rights of victims. It is not removing the rights of offenders, but it is putting victims at the heart of our justice system. They are the ones who have been harmed by the actions of the offenders, and it is only right that we should have a justice system focusing on the rights of victims. This is a good bill. It is the right balance, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc82323c7bc248d999e1c62d23d6f080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc82323c7bc248d999e1c62d23d6f080\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in relation to the Prisoners\u2019 and Victim\u2019s Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. I am afraid I cannot repeat the enthusiasm of the previous National Party speaker, Kate Wilkinson, on this particular piece of legislation. The reason that I do not feel enthusiastic about our position, which is to support the passage of the bill, is that in so doing, in actual fact, we are allowing a piece of legislation to go through when the real issue has not been addressed, and the real issue is the rights of victims. During a select committee hearing there was a very powerful presentation from the Sensible Sentencing Trust. It was very interesting. I have, on occasions, clashed with members of the Sensible Sentencing Trust on some issues where I am regarded as being somewhat soft on crime, perhaps, but I think that its submission was compelling. Why it was compelling was that it actually raised a whole lot of questions around where the Ministry of Justice was up to as far as victims\u2019 rights went. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EPart of the sunset provisions that went with the original legislation, which has had to be reinstated once\u2014and, in fact, there was a reinstatement bill for a further sunsetted provision when it was replaced with this bill that we are now dealing with. There were two reasons for that. One was to make sure that there was put in place a good process for ensuring that prisoners\u2019 rights were upheld. We are signatories to the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, after all, and the Ombudsman did come to the select committee and tell us that there are issues around cruel and inhumane treatment of prisoners. The submitters talked about unlawful detention, they talked about unlawful strip-searching, and they talked about inappropriate placement on segregation, resulting in isolation and the removal of minimum entitlements. Nobody wants to see prisoners treated in that way when they are in prison. No matter what they have gone to prison for, their punishment is their imprisonment; it is not the way that they are treated while they are in prison, and they are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EHowever, the victims of crime are also entitled to be treated with dignity and respect, and here are the \u201CGuiding principles for providing effective service and support to victims of crime\u201D that they brought to our attention: \u201CRespectful and confidential treatment: \u2026 Individualised response / flexible services: \u2026 Services are accessible: \u2026 Provision of \u2018right information at the right time in the right format\u2019: \u2026 Delivered by experienced, knowledgable, well-trained, empathetic staff: \u2026 Consistent high quality services and support: \u2026 Integrated service provision: \u2026 End-to-end individualised support: \u2026 Accountable services:\u201D. Where do you think they got that from? Do you think that that was a charter that they wrote themselves? Because it certainly looks like a victims\u2019 charter to me. Where they got that from was the Ministry of Justice website. It was a report commissioned by the Ministry of Justice, Victims of crime in the adult criminal justice system: A stocktake of the literature. In fact, after an extensive range of research relevant to crime victimisation, the expert who provided this report to the ministry identified a number of guiding principles that emerged as important in delivering effective support and services to victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill does nothing to advance any of those. That is why it is with some disappointment that we see it being enacted, but we are supporting it because the balance has to be there, and, on this occasion, the balance requires us to vote for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00225d7d78040a0146cfafd7f7d9831f7d56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d7d78040a0146cfafd7f7d9831f7d56\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be speaking to the second reading of the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. The purpose of this bill is to make the restriction on awards of compensation in the victims\u2019 claim process in the principal 2005 Act permanent. The 2005 Act was due to expire at the end of June last year, and an interim bill was introduced to cover a further year from 1 July 2012 to 30 June this year. This bill will now make the 2005 Act regime permanent. It is a balanced bill, as we have heard before. It balances the rights of victims with the responsibilities of offenders. It is a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022db630df606f841129fa19c286bf27309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db630df606f841129fa19c286bf27309\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022c24aeed1ed3146c2873af054c1ec114f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c24aeed1ed3146c2873af054c1ec114f\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E It is. Thank you very much, Mr Assistant Speaker, for the chance to speak to the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. As my colleague the Hon Lianne Dalziel stated at the end of her speech, this is a bill that we will support, but it is with some considerable amount of reservation. We are supporting it because in essence it is a continuation of a piece of legislation that the Hon Phil Goff saw through this House in 2005. My colleague Andrew Little said it was a measure taken because of community unease at what had happened in a particular case where a prisoner had got some compensation and that should have been passed on to the victim of his crime. At the time the then Minister of Justice, Phil Goff, said that most people believe it is wrong that offenders should be compensated for wrongful treatment but in turn are not required to pay restitution to the victims they harmed. Good words\u2014from a very good member of Parliament, I should add. But I think this goes to the very heart of the Kiwi sense of a fair go, in that if you get ripped off and someone has the ability to compensate you, then you should get that compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EBut our reservation with this bill comes around a commitment made by the Government to consult the rest of Parliament and to have a review around the functionality of this legislation. This bill that is before us now basically makes permanent the sunset clause that has been rolled over, I think, three times since the 2005 legislation was enacted. The purpose of that sunset clause, as Mr Goff has mentioned, was to ensure that there was a review to make sure that this system has been working. The member from the Government side of the House Alfred Ngaro said that there was a balance to this piece of legislation, and in a very narrow sense that might be true. But in a broader sense, as Mr Goff has said, to see whether this sense of fairness across the board is working we believe that a review should be taken of cases where not just victims of mistreatment in prisons were getting some meaningful gain but also other prisoners who were being incarcerated had the ability to compensate. As I said before, if someone rips you off and you have the ability to be compensated by them, then you should get that compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo we believe that there should have been a review. We understood that the Government was going to undertake a review. I believe that the last time the sunset clause was pushed out by another year or so we were told that there was going to be a period of consultation, when we could talk about what would be captured in that review. As Mr Goff said, in that review we would have liked to look at the issue where some people who have dallied in white-collar crime have been able to sit on rather large amounts of money while their victims are looking at their bank accounts and their life-savings and seeing very little there, and whether or not that should be captured by this bill in terms of being able to get them compensation. It is absolutely unfair and a break of a commitment from the Government to say that a review should not be held for the benefit of those people who are looking at this and saying: \u201CIf they can get compensation, why can\u2019t we get compensation when someone has ripped us off and is sitting on a huge nest egg? We can\u2019t get our hands on it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWhy cannot the Government, in this piece of legislation, be true to its promise about caring about victims of crime\u2014whatever crime it may be, whether it be an act against the person or an act against their bank accounts\u2014hold a review, and broaden the scope around the victims\u2019 rights and their ability for compensation? We have seen that that has not happened. It should happen, it is a break of a commitment, and, although we support this legislation, we do it with reservation because the Government says it is on the side of victims but in this case it has not been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00221d152065c412446db9ca66dd94cc6066\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d152065c412446db9ca66dd94cc6066\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to add another voice in opposition to this Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill on behalf of the Green Party. We are not supporting this bill, because we have a sense of justice and a belief in human rights, and we believe that victims\u2019 rights are absolutely critical regardless of whether they are in or out of prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI would also like to just remind this House, as have many others before me, of the intended review that has never happened. If this Government was truly interested in victims\u2019 rights, then that review would have happened and we would have had legislation that evolved out of a review that was evidence-based and considered the actual needs of victims and what would make a difference to them. This legislation does nothing towards actually addressing the needs of victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe have heard about the gaps in terms of white-collar crime and recompense to victims. That point has been made very eloquently, I think, by my Labour colleagues, but I would also like to draw to the attention of this House the work that was shelved by this Government on the inadequacy of our system in addressing the needs of victims of sexual abuse in this country. There was a huge review done by the Law Commission on looking at alternative pre-trial and trial processes to improve the ability of sexual abuse victims to get justice in our courts. We have a system that denies justice to about 99 percent of sexual abuse victims in this country, and this Government after months\u2014and decades, in fact\u2014of work on that issue just decided to shelve it, because it was not a priority and because some of the ideas in that review were contentious. Not many of them were\u2014a huge number of them, in fact, had agreement\u2014but some of them were contentious so this Government shelved it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWhere in that is any concern for the victim? It is a joke to put this forward in front of this House and pretend that this Government cares about victims, when the most major piece of work that would have helped improve justice for victims in this country was shelved with no adequate reason being given for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAnother reason that we are opposing this bill is actually the point I made earlier: that we see prisoners being able to be victims. It is a very basic principle. This bill will have the perverse result of making prisoners less likely to report torture and will take away incentives for our corrections systems to create the safe environments that would mean that this legislation was completely unnecessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAlthough New Zealanders may have a gut reaction and think that it is unfair that these people who may have done terrible things are now getting a payout from the Government, that train of thinking is focused on what happened to somebody outside of prison that was done by this person, and it misses the situation of that prisoner having been victimised by our State. The case that led to this was a case of extreme torture that was perpetuated by the State and I am very pleased to see the Government now taking action in terms of helping to protect, hopefully, transgender prisoners in New Zealand who, we know, are being sexually abused in our prisons at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe State has a duty to protect prisoners. That is a basic, basic part of human rights and we know that we are not going to have safer communities if we have prisoners who feel that they are, in turn, being victimised by the State. That is not going to lead to them feeling as if they have something to contribute to our society and something to give back to the community, if they are alienated through the rehabilitative process. So there are many reasons that the Greens are opposing this bill and at heart it is because we care about victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a309655210d94bfcafdda07df9c6dc16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a309655210d94bfcafdda07df9c6dc16\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just a very quick call\u2014[Interruption] Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d51d71122114eb282f82974425b64e6\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Do a proper speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c035d09051ca429fbc8639df26f2479e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let us talk, first of all, about Phil Goff, shall we? He talks about criminals and victims, but he is the one who broke the law just the other week by releasing a coroner\u2019s report that was suppressed. He gets up in this House and talks about all these horrible criminals, but the fact of the matter is that he should get up in the House and apologise to the coroner for releasing a protected report. That is the issue here, so he has got a cheek to get up in this House and talk about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI think the best speech in this House was Andrew Little\u2019s. Andrew Little put it succinctly\u2014that is, that this Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill is a good bill, and he supports the bill, not like Phil Goff, who gets up and does this raving speech about the rich and the poor, and the criminal and the victim, and the \u201CI\u2019ve done this.\u201D and \u201CI\u2019ve done that.\u201D He rails against the bill, but then he says: \u201CBut we\u2019re going to support it.\u201D What a speech for the ages! I support this bill. All it does is to make sure that the victims are looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226779871956e84a078660e547a8913102\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002205dc74d951ca484c84ad4c8bc50306a0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222187971e2e6b467d9e55cc4fceb1191b\u0022\u003EPart 1  Main amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022746229039a08455087fceb2953004c36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022746229039a08455087fceb2953004c36\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do not want to disappoint Tau Henare, but our support for this bill is highly contingent. We have considerable reservations, if, indeed, not anxieties, about this bill, the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe understand the origins of this legislation. The origins of the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Act go back to the previous Labour Government. It dealt with a very confined, very specific set of circumstances, but it was to foreshadow a more comprehensive review of our victims\u2019 rights regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis legislation is not actually victims\u2019 rights legislation. This places victims\u2019 rights on the level of a lottery. If you happen to have been violently abused, mugged, harmed, or injured by a prisoner or by a perpetrator who then, on serving a penal sentence, is himself or herself beaten up, abused, tortured, or whatever and is successful in a claim against the Crown for that abuse, then you might have a claim as a victim. Well, that is not a victims\u2019 rights piece of legislation, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe understand the confined nature of this legislation. It originated under a Labour Government and we continue to support it for that reason. But we have also done so because we were given an assurance and an undertaking that there would be a proper review of our victims\u2019 rights regime. This Government made that undertaking. It said it would consult with other parties, including us, and it has not done so. It has not fulfilled that undertaking. So that work still remains to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EMy colleague Phil Goff talked about the impact of this legislation since it was originally enacted. It has led to a total of $47,000 worth of compensation being paid to victims out of a total of nearly $250,000 awarded to prisoners for the abuses they have suffered at the hands of the State. That is hardly a great rallying cry for a successful piece of victims\u2019 rights legislation. It simply is not, because it is so chance-based and really requires some considerable degree of misfortune on the prisoner\u2019s side and, you might say, luck on the side of some victims. That is not taking victims\u2019 needs seriously. That demand, that need, remains, and it remains unaddressed in this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo if by passing this legislation we can give the Government room to continue to consider the issue of a proper regime of victims\u2019 rights, it will have our cooperation in doing that. I lay down that challenge and that invitation to the Government. We know that that work still needs to be done, the Government knows that work still needs to be done, and we should be concentrating our efforts and the efforts of this House on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENone of that means that we do not also ensure that the way we treat prisoners\u2014those who are serving prison sentences, those who have been incarcerated by the State as a punishment for the conduct they have visited on other citizens\u2014fulfils our international human rights obligations. We treat those who are in the custody of the State properly and with humanity, knowing that merely by being incarcerated they are serving their punishment. Their simply being sentenced to prison does not justify other abuses behind prison walls, out of the public gaze. We understand all that, and that is a crucial part of our total criminal justice and corrections system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut when it comes to victims\u2019 rights, let us not deny that there is something repugnant about the idea that somebody who has been the victim of the serious violence of a criminal\u2014or, indeed, as Phil Goff has pointed out, somebody who has been ripped off by a white-collar criminal to the tune of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars\u2014has to stand by while that criminal is able to recover considerable compensation from the Crown for wrongful treatment, because a misguided prison manager or a misguided corrections officer has mistreated the criminal, leading to a recovery for the prisoner while the victim gets nothing. That is unjust, and that issue still needs to be addressed. This bill is a start towards addressing that injustice, but it does not go anywhere near dealing with it and addressing it fully. So, as I say, that work remains\u2014that work remains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe impact of this legislation since its inception, and the impact it will continue to have, means that those who do recover from the State in the rare instance when that happens\u2014we have the Taunoa case and one or two others that have followed it, but not many others\u2014when the prisoner does recover compensation, it then gets paid to the State. The various claims that can be made upon it are paid out, including the recovery of some of the costs that the Crown incurs in bringing a prisoner to justice, and then money goes to the prisoner. It is important, if we are serious about victims\u2019 rights, that victims have a claim, regardless of whether or not the prisoner is able to get some sort of windfall payment as a result of an abuse by the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EA proper victims\u2019 rights regime\u2014and, indeed, a proper system of criminal justice\u2014would say not only that those who have suffered at the hands of a criminal are able to recover once the criminal has served a term of penal servitude, if that is what the justice system demands, but also that the victim can claim and seek, and reliably expect to receive, some sort of reparation or compensation for the material harm done to them. That is what a real victims\u2019 rights regime would provide for. That is what this legislation, when it was enacted under the Labour Government, ought to have led to\u2014a proper, deliberate consideration of the needs of victims and reparation for victims, as opposed to this stop-start lurching from one remedy for a confined set of circumstances to simply rolling over the same remedy for the same confined set of circumstances. That work needs to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo let the passage of this bill through this House at this time be a clarion call to this Government and any future Government to say: \u201CLet\u2019s get on with that work.\u201D If we are serious about victims\u2019 rights and we understand the impact of serious crime on victims, whether it is violent crime or whether it is white-collar crime in the nature of fraud and generally ripping people off, let us have a proper and serious considered look and conversation about what might be done to more reliably give an assurance to a victim that they can get justice beyond simply seeing the perpetrator of the crime against them banged up in jail for a period of time and deprived of their liberty. That to the victim is of limited use when they have been deprived of their ability to go about their ordinary business in their life, or deprived of their future if their funds have been ripped off them. That is the real challenge laid down by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe are up for that challenge. We are up for that conversation with a Government that is interested in doing that, and I know that other parties will be, as well. Let the passage of this bill at least lead to that process. Let us hear from the Minister in the chair that he is prepared to give that assurance, so that we can at some point in the near future look back and say: \u201CWe have a world-class system, not only of criminal justice but of victims\u2019 justice and victims\u2019 rights, as well.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022462f82672bac47a5aeacea189d7e5f57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022462f82672bac47a5aeacea189d7e5f57\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to make a few comments on some of the detail of this bill, the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill, and to talk initially about the clause that reads as follows: that this bill makes \u201Cit clear that certain persons unlawfully detained by or on behalf of the Crown are, and have always been, for the principal Act\u2019s purposes and the period of their unlawful detention, persons under control of supervision\u2026 \u201D. Roughly translated, that means that this prisoners\u2019 and victims\u2019 claims legislation\u2014that is, the denial of any restitution to prisoners for any wrong done to them while they are in prison\u2014will be extended to include the situation where prisoners are kept in jail longer than they ought to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis happens surprisingly frequently. The flip side, to the advantage of some individuals, of course, is that occasionally prisoners are released sooner than they ought to be. These are administrative errors. They ought not to happen\u2014I am sure people in corrections work hard to see that they do not\u2014but they do occur. Sometimes people are kept in beyond the expiry of their sentence for some significant periods of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that we are told in the regulatory impact statement that the intention of the original legislation was that people unlawfully detained beyond the expiry date of their sentence would nevertheless be subject to this prisoners\u2019 and victims\u2019 claims legislation. The insertion of this clause, as they say, is for the avoidance of doubt, whether it was because of case law or simply an observation that it could perhaps be read differently. For the avoidance of doubt, we are told that prisoners kept beyond the expiry date of their sentence will nevertheless for that period be subject to claims by any victims. Any restitution paid to them for that unlawful detention will be subject to claims by any victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe argument has been made this morning\u2014and I do not think it is a compelling argument nor defensible\u2014running roughly like this: people who offend and are imprisoned therefore lose their rights, or lose some of their rights beyond simply their right to their liberty. We are told that people bring that on themselves, essentially. They offend against people\u2019s property or against people physically, violently, or whatever, therefore for the period of their incarceration they should not be entitled to any restitution. I fail to see how you can extend that argument to say that people should not get restitution if the Crown fails in its duty to release them on the appropriate date. You can argue that the period of the sentence has been brought on the prisoner by their own actions, and quite reasonably. I fail to see how an unlawful detention beyond the term of the sentence is the fault of the prisoner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EBy this reassurance, by confirming that unlawful detention is subject to the prisoners\u2019 and victims\u2019 claims provisions, that somehow implies it is the prisoner\u2019s fault; that it is by their action that they have been unlawfully detained and therefore they should suffer the penalties and they should be denied any possibility of restitution. Frankly, that argument makes no sense to me. I would be really interested to hear a justification for including unlawful detention for the period that prisoners are kept in jail when they ought not to be through no fault of their own. How is it their fault? How is it, therefore, that they are subject to, then denied any possibility of restitution for, that unlawful detention? I would be very interested to hear exactly how that spins out in the mind of the Minister of Justice, who drafted this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe other point I will make is a more general point. We have in our prisons a complaints process, which is an internal complaints process managed and operated by corrections. Beyond that, there is also an appeal available to the Office of the Ombudsmen. I think it is important to realise that there is a very low level of confidence with inmates, with their families, with other interested parties, with NGOs who observe these things, in the complaints process. To a large extent, it is because prisoners are often in the slightly odd situation where they are having to hand the complaint to the person who could well be one of the people they are complaining about. That is a very perverse situation and one that I think we need to think harder about. The point is that if prisoners\u2019 complaints are not heard, and if prisoners and other interested parties are observing that the complaints process is not working, then we are more likely to get outbursts of violence and incidents in our prisons. It is very hard to see in the context of this bill how revictimising people while they are in the care of the charge of the State\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002259d7e1d1eaf044fcb924428ed08a7dcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259d7e1d1eaf044fcb924428ed08a7dcb\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to pick up on a couple points that my colleague David Clendon has made. This legislation, the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill, in my view, is not about saying that people who offend lose all their rights when they go to prison and that they have no rights. I think that is a misconceived view of why this was introduced. I guess I am in a reasonable position to know why it was introduced, because I did the introduction. What I said when I introduced this bill, I still believe. I want to read it out, because I think it is pertinent. I said that most people believe that it is wrong that offenders should be compensated for wrongful treatment, but in turn are not required to pay restitution to the victims they harmed. This arose from the Taunoa case and the behaviour modification regime. That regime was wrongful and it has been done away with, but the people who were in there were amongst the worst offenders. The damage they did physically and emotionally to their victims was intense, and they were going to collect tens of thousands of dollars for their rights being harmed. I did not believe then, and I do not believe now, that if you have harmed somebody else and you get a windfall compensation, you should not be required in turn to compensate your victims. Part 1 of this bill keeps that provision in place, and I believe rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI am not arguing at all that the Department of Corrections is above the law; if it breaks the law, it needs to be called to heel. It must operate under the law. There are provisions that enable that to happen. When we put the Corrections Bill through in 2004, that set up an internal complaints procedure. I disagree with David Clendon that that does not work. We also put through in 2007, under the Crimes of Torture Act, the role of the Ombudsman to be designated as the national preventative mechanism, where two inspectors appointed by the Ombudsman regularly go through the prisons to examine the conditions and the treatment of inmates. It is putting the fence at the top of the cliff, not a compensation regime at the bottom, that is really important. So the first point is that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe second point is that this legislation actually does not prevent any claim for compensation being accepted by the court. The court simply has to do a number of things first. It must first consider whether there are remedies other than compensation that should be employed in dealing with a claim by the prisoner. It must consider whether the prisoner made reasonable use of the complaints procedure and was not trying to milk the system. That is fair enough. It said that compensation should be reserved for exceptional cases when it was necessary to provide effective redress, and that is fair enough. For those reasons, I am comfortable with the fact that this bill remains in force. What I am not comfortable with, and what Part 1 of the bill does not address, is that we are limiting the payments of compensation to victims by criminal offenders to an ever-decreasing number of people. Hopefully, when we stop abuses that might occur within the corrections system, there will be no grants, but does that mean to say we do not have to look at the wider problem, which is that most victims never receive a cent in reparation or compensation from their offenders? If we have inmate A, who wins Lotto and gets a million dollars, does that mean to say he should never have to pay back that money to the victim to whom he did so much damage? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other example I used is the example of a white-collar offender. They do have the human resources that would enable them ultimately to compensate their victims. Part 1 does not address the problem of the privileged white-collar offender who goes to jail for 2 years, gets out, goes back to living in the mansion and driving the flash car, has all sorts of resources in the family trust, and leaves thousands of victims of his offending, which robbed them of their life savings, never being able to get compensation from their offender. In the original legislation we had sunset clauses. Those sunset clauses called for a review. This part does not actually act on the original legislation. It does not provide for an extension of a system that looks to the interests of the victim. I am in the position of criticising this Government because it has overlooked the opportunity to do something meaningful to help thousands of victims of criminal offenders who never get reparation, and who never see restorative justice, where the offender is never required to put it right for the victim. This measure is supported by us because in a very limited range of cases, there is good cause to say that if the offender gets compensation from the State, they may have to pay that to their victim. But it does not say that the vast majority of offenders, when they have the ability to do so, should repay their victim and make reparation. This bill does nothing to allow justice to happen in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill that originally went through Parliament asked for a review. Each time, when we had to extend the legislation, the Government failed to ever put that review into effect. It failed to use its imagination. It failed in terms of commitment and determination to do something on behalf of victims. That is why this is regarded by Labour as weak, as half-hearted, and as inadequate. Yes, what it keeps in place is OK, but it does not extend what it put in place. It is not wrong to expect of any criminal offender, blue-collar or white-collar, if they are in a position to do so, to make reparations to their victim. They may not be in a position to do so at the time of sentencing or while they are in prison, but if the circumstances arise where it becomes possible for them to provide compensation, then surely they should be required, under common sense and any principle of justice, to set things right for the victim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ETime and again we have heard the rhetoric on the election trail about the need to look after the interests of the victim. When this National Government had the opportunity to do a review and to find ways that we could require the offender to compensate the victim, it came up short. In the course of this debate, we have not heard from the Minister of Justice. Perhaps the Minister would like to address this: why did the Government not utilise the opportunity provided under the legislation for a review, to do a review, and to consult with the Opposition, as the Minister at the time promised? She broke that promise. She reneged on that promise. The Government has been complacent. It has said: \u201CWell, we\u2019ll keep this in place. Labour introduced it. We\u2019ll keep it in place, but we won\u2019t do anything more.\u201D That relegates thousands of victims across our country to be in a position of never having hope that they will get a fair redress of the injustice done to them by requiring the person who did that injustice to set things right. What more could we ask from a system of justice than it restore the position of the victim? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis is a lost opportunity. This maintains the status quo; it does not extend it. It relegates compensation payments to an ever-dwindling number of people who might get compensation because of breach by the State of its responsibilities. It does nothing to protect or enhance the position of the victim. That is why, although we will support it, because it keeps in place a limited measure that I introduced, it does not take the opportunity to extend it to provide a better, a fairer, and a more just outcome for victims. Shame on the Government for not taking that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00221501fa3acc1343d2b622cc2271d441e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221501fa3acc1343d2b622cc2271d441e2\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I feel that there has been a good process through which this Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill has gone, which has therefore resulted in a good bill. There were also some very good submissions, but I would have to say that I fundamentally disagree with some of them. The Law Society made a very good submission, and suggested that, following Taunoa v Attorney-General, the bill was actually not needed. Of course, the Taunoa case did narrow the scope for prisoners\u2019 rights to compensation, and that is also what this bill does. But I do not agree that the bill is not needed. What the Taunoa case did show was that the law at that time was moving in the same direction as this bill is, and no doubt that is a movement that would have been irresistible. In any event, there are some significant advantages in a bill of this kind. I think the main one is that there is a code there to which prisoners and victims can refer to understand their rights. I think that in itself will go quite a long way to limiting vexatious claims by prisoners and unrealistic expectations by victims. So it is a very good bill for those reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI also reject, I think, the submissions made by the Ombudsman and the Human Rights Commission. They suggested that the bill would result in a reduction of human rights for prisoners. I understand that that is also the position that the Green Party has taken. I do not believe that is the case. It certainly narrows the rights of prisoners and it defines those rights. It does not remove them. I think there is also a need for a balance between those rights and the rights of victims. That emphasis is the one that the Labour Party has, I think quite rightly, emphasised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI would have to say, however, that the real question is whether this bill actually does go far enough. We have heard a couple of speeches from Labour members who suggest that it does not and that there is further work to be done, especially with regards to victims\u2019 rights. I suspect that there is some validity in that position. However, I have not really heard any specificity in the claims that more work needs to be done and that the bill does not really go far enough. New Zealand First is, however, always prepared to listen to those kinds of arguments. I have not actually heard any yet; I have heard only general claims that more needs to be done, and I do not know what that really is. So, if other Labour members can tell me a little bit more, I would be grateful for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, the Greens say it goes too far. They say prisoners\u2019 rights will be too constrained. In fact, Mr Clendon said that. I do not think that is the situation at all. The bill certainly limits and narrows claims, but it does not really reduce them in any way that I think is a concern for human rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EHowever, New Zealand First has a different position from either of those, and we feel that the bill does strike the right balance. In fact, we expect that the courts over time will further develop the law with regard to this tension between prisoners\u2019 rights and victims\u2019 rights and that they will develop the law within the scope of the bill. That is appropriate, and I think\u2014and we in New Zealand First think\u2014that that is enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the Government did listen to a number of the submissions. There is one in particular that I approve of, and it concerns the issue of compensation diversion. The Government originally wished to provide for a compensation diversion provision, which would have meant that there would be a pool of prisoners\u2019 compensation funds, which victims could refer to. That, I think, would have gone too far. It would effectively confiscate any compensation that a prisoner was awarded. So it is much better that that provision has been deleted and that the Government did listen to that, and now victims may, in fact, claim only against the specific award of the prisoner who committed the offence. I think that is appropriate, so I am glad that the Government listened to that and that we have a better bill as a result. That good balance has made it possible for New Zealand First to support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIt is, therefore, a bill we can support because it does achieve that balance, but that did not really arise because it was a Government bill and a Government-conceived position. So I do not think the Government can really particularly take credit for the bill as it now is, because it is not the bill that it originally introduced. What has actually happened is that the bill has gone through a good process. It has been amended, and it has been modified, and now we get a good balance. So I think that the bill is a tribute to the process, to those who submitted, and especially to the Justice and Electoral Committee, which dealt with it. We support it because of that process and because it is a good outcome. We think that it does not really need any further work, but if others feel that it does, they need to be more specific about what that should be. We will be voting for the bill, as I have already said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f032f9a4354ee3b8a6cb184957b94b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f032f9a4354ee3b8a6cb184957b94b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to assist the previous speaker, Denis O\u2019Rourke, with some advice as to what would improve this legislation, the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims (Continuation and Reform) Amendment Bill. It would require some action away from this place initially, because it would require a substantial review of the issues that were really the reason for the original sunset provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EDuring the period of the legislation\u2019s original enactment, 5 years, I think, was allowed in order for some significant work to be done on the whole issue of reparation for victims. When I read that list before, of the number of things that the best evidence shows would support victims in terms of their recovery from serious offences, I saw that reparation was an element of that. The question of reparation comes well down the list, after respectful and confidential treatment, individualised response, and flexible services, but within the context of individualised responses, obviously reparation comes up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe real issue with the sunset provision\u2014the period of time before the provisions expire\u2014was that we were asking how we would get reparation to the victims and how we would do that in a timely fashion, because the timeliness of reparation is very important. A number of the submitters who came to the Justice and Electoral Committee made the point that \u201CActually, we don\u2019t want to hear about this guy again until we have to front up for a parole hearing.\u201D In terms of the thought that they might take some comfort from the fact that the prisoners had had their human rights abused in some way, shape, or form, and that that therefore enabled them to pay some money to victims, they said they could not think of a worse way of receiving reparation, because it would just bring back all of the memories of everything that had already happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo the idea of the extension of time with the provisions falling out of play was to enable us to establish a system for providing reparation to victims and then decide after that how we then fund that payment. Part of that payment was not to come just from the chance that a person\u2019s rights had been abused in prison; it would have enabled us to then look at any windfall provision. It could have been a tax\u2014an additional tax like a student loan or an additional tax repaid from earnings by those who have offended against someone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ERemember, not everyone who is in prison has actually caused a victim of a crime. They may, in fact, be the sole victim of their crime. They may have driven drunk several times and ended up without having caused an accident, but, having been caught, they may have ended up in prison. They may have been in prison for possession of marijuana, or they might have been in prison for possession of another drug for their own personal use. So there are a whole lot of reasons. Driving offences are actually a significant reason why people end up in prison at any one time. If their rights are violated, they have no credible claim for compensation if it is simply going to be taken by the Crown for the general use of victims, because they have not actually caused a victim of a crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo that is why this bill is problematic, and that is why I have no enthusiasm for it. I believe that we are doing the right thing in voting for it, simply because it does not offend against the underlying principles. I actually agree with the New Zealand Law Society that it is not really needed any more, as a result of the Taunoa case and subsequent changes to how the courts might approach these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that the best thing we could have done would be to actually step away from the issue and ask what we were trying to achieve. What we are trying to achieve is we are trying to ensure that victims have access to reparation at a very early stage so that it is timely\u2014in fact, it is immediate\u2014and so that people do not have to spend money. We heard people saying that they had had to travel great distances to the original arraignment and then to the court hearing itself. They ended up in a town where they had not expected things to be held over for as long as they were, and so they had to buy extra clothes. There were just lots of little examples that people gave to us of significant expenditure, significant costs, that they were confronted with at a time when they were grieving the loss of their daughter, the loss of one of their children, or the loss of a husband or a wife. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWe have had people give evidence at the select committee that that is what the priority is. What we were supposed to be doing in the period within which this had its sunset was actually establish what the best way was to provide for that in advance, immediately, and then how we claim it back. One of the groups of people whom we had to claim it back from was the people from whom reparation ought to be sought, and they are the perpetrators of those major offences. But not every single person who has committed an offence ends up in jail, and that is the perpetrator I am talking about. But should those perpetrators in fact be allowed to keep a windfall of a Lotto win after they leave jail? Should they be allowed to keep a Lotto win or should they in fact be required to reimburse to the account from which the reparation was paid to their victim? Should they have an ongoing, lifelong obligation to repay that amount if there was a windfall situation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat was the sort of thinking outside the square that we had really expected to be done during this period. That is why on the one hand Phil Goff can say that it does not go far enough and on the other hand the Green Party can say that it goes too far. In many respects they are both right, because the legislation that we are dealing with actually does not do what the original legislative sunset period was designed for. That was designed for a very specific, serious piece of work. This bill does not deliver on that, and I think that is the tragedy of it. But on balance, as I said before, Labour is voting for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022480dcedc6fda43d49bdecaacac752a34\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e44c6140e0b0477a8bf852d317f99d91\u0022\u003EPart 2  Saving and repeal amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e440013359304802b20bbfc502aa43de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f49804796934b6781557ea936a0b6f1\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fda3e9a4df3346d3ac1ce0126d7366c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022abec404a3f48453e97cb8ec56367fe3b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002232ca3c466b5649018a51cae1debdd6f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000267\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000268\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c271ad0fd37f4cd4ba1702cc7dbc8e3c\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287d4586dc2384cae8200a48a9d9b5d8c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00221cf5768a325748a3973275b24fa6c1ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cf5768a325748a3973275b24fa6c1ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Defence)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: I move, That the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I would like to thank the chair and members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for their work. I would also like to thank everyone who took the time to make a submission to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis Land Transport Management Amendment Bill is part of the Government\u2019s ongoing efforts to cut unnecessary red tape and to create better, more effective legislation. The bill will lead to streamlined decision making and less prescriptive planning processes for those in the transport sector. It will allow councils greater flexibility to plan for the needs of their regions. It will ensure both central and local government get better value for money from their investment in public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill has three main components. First, it makes changes to the planning and funding framework of the Land Transport Management Act. This channels around $3 billion of central government funding annually into roading, public transport, and road safety. Second, it will also streamline the framework for assessing toll-road schemes and will simplify the Act\u2019s concession agreement provisions while facilitating roading public-private partnerships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dfb503fa512499c9e57fb7ce2bd1dff\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got the wrong speech. Who\u2019s listening anyway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515caf6f32144e33b320093664853f29\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: You should listen, actually, as a convicted drunk-driver, because they drive on roads as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979dd6562eef4fb7bba689d76eb9a604\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229927663047714632ba8eccbeb726acfc\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Point of order\u2014I think I know what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022303a013881eb4637815d22b15efbe294\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Deputy Speaker, you are not a convicted drunk-driver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b711905d4d84287b21de4c5544453a3\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member must not bring the Speaker into the debate. Be very careful on the pronouns that you actually use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e27e71c45fa40fc8cbbfae9bba0ec02\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da76c171d4c8434aba602e4139f35693\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have ruled. The member should not bring\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f08929ae0bf49da9ca8a3b30c6ceff6\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Mrs Dyson is not a convicted drunk-driver\u2014sorry, is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a7796e22a746d296be50bcf341284d\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f568e5afe88c4d159d4cb2f2d03ea357\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You asked him not to speak to your ruling; he did. At this point he should go. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a214d0214d6e4b699337106962e16f3b\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I will ask the member to stand and withdraw the comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b65af9e725b84a3daaab4921b47d8527\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5630afef3034886bba3970b4742cdf6\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now contain himself to do the speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2d9968a7768484b85e6232c8f4ce86c\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Right, where were we? The bill has three main components. First, it makes changes to the planning and funding framework of the Act. This channels around $3 billion of central government funding annually into roading, public transport, and road safety. Second, it will also streamline the framework for assessing toll-road schemes and simplify the Act\u2019s concession agreement provisions, which facilitate roading public-private partnerships. Third, it establishes in legislation a new public transport operating model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ESubmitters were generally supportive of the bill\u2019s intent to simplify the Act\u2019s planning and funding framework. To achieve this, the bill will focus the Act\u2019s purpose and decision-making criteria on an effective, efficient, and safe land transport system in the public interest. This will make the Act simpler, clearer, and easier to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill will also simplify central and regional transport planning processes. The bill consolidates the regional land transport strategy and regional land transport programme into a new regional transport planning document, the regional land transport plan. It also consolidates the national land transport strategy and the Government Policy Statement on Land Transport Funding into a single document, the Government Policy Statement on Land Transport. The select committee recommended amending the bill\u2019s provisions on the new Government policy statement to give clearer guidance on what might be included in this document. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill will also do away with the obligation for regional transport committees to include representatives from a list prescribed in legislation. This will give the committees\u2019 elected representatives the right to decide whom they need to hear from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ERules against borrowing will also change. Currently, borrowing is allowed in two situations: firstly, borrowing that is repaid through the use of toll revenues that are not part of the National Land Transport Fund; secondly, borrowing for cash-flow management of the National Land Transport Programme, repaid from the National Land Transport Fund. This bill will remove this artificial distinction between borrowing against the fund and other transport revenues. It will do this by allowing borrowing to be used for future projects, should there be a good case and should it be prudent to do so. This type of borrowing would be subject to agreement from the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EProvisions for a regional fuel tax will be repealed. This will guarantee that costs imposed by a regional tax are not spread across all regions. It will also safeguard productive sectors that use fuel for non-transport related reasons from the additional costs of going through a refund system to claim back the tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe second significant area of change is to tolling schemes and concession agreements. The bill will simplify the process for approving toll-road schemes. A number of existing statutory tests, many of which are currently duplicated elsewhere in the Act, will be replaced with a single high-level test requiring tolling proposals to be efficient and effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill removes the requirement for toll roads to include at least one method of payment that does not collect personal information. Motorists\u2019 privacy will continue to be safeguarded by the Privacy Act 1993 and the availability of an un-tolled route. The committee recommended that motorists\u2019 privacy is further safeguarded by amending the bill to limit the circumstances in which personal information can be retained by the toll operator. As part of these changes, the bill will enable the existing toll road in Tauranga, Route K, to be brought under the toll-road regime that applies to other toll roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill also simplifies the road leasing policy set out in the Act\u2019s concession agreement provisions, reducing potential barriers to the use of public-private partnerships for the purposes of constructing or operating new roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EFinally, this bill establishes in legislation a new policy framework for an ongoing partnership between regional councils and public transport operators for planning and contracting public transport, known as the Public Transport Operating Model. Almost all submitters on the bill were supportive of this new model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill will also repeal the Public Transport Management Act 2008, carrying over relevant provisions into the Land Transport Management Act. The bill will require all public transport services in a region to be segmented into units and provided under exclusive contract to the regional council. Regional councils will be required to identify in their regional public transport plans the units they propose to contract, the policies applying to operators of units, and any taxi and shuttle services the region intends to financially assist. Services that do not form part of a region\u2019s core urban public transport network will be exempt from operating under contract and will be identified on an exempt services register, held by the relevant regional council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe committee recommended amending the bill to insert principles for planning and operating public transport services that will guide decision making. The principles are those that were used in the development of the Public Transport Operating Model and they incorporate the Government\u2019s objectives for public transport services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe committee recommended amending the bill to express more clearly the intended purpose of regional public transport plans and simplify the content requirements for regional public transport plans. The committee also recommended a number of other amendments to ensure existing services and operators are not unduly affected by the transition to the new framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIn closing, I would like to once again thank the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee members for their work on the bill. A number of worthwhile refinements have been made. This bill will provide a durable piece of legislation that promotes an effective, efficient, and safe land transport system. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002262567808a25a4d66be18014cfc842ffc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262567808a25a4d66be18014cfc842ffc\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Labour opposes this bill, the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, because it sets in permanent bitumen the National Government\u2019s fossilised approach to transport infrastructure and its determination to waste taxpayers\u2019 money on monster motorways that serve no real purpose, other than to be a monument to this Government\u2019s profligate spending on outmoded transport infrastructure that harks back to the 1950s era of sprawl and motorways. The central way in which this bill achieves that is by changing the purpose of the current Act. The current Act says that its purpose is \u201Cto contribute to the aim of achieving an affordable, integrated, safe, responsive, and sustainable land transport system.\u201D What could possibly be wrong with that purpose and that aim for our land transport? But this is what the Government wants to do away with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at the reasons why. Well, the question of affordability comes up first. Is our land transport system affordable and are the Government\u2019s plans affordable? Well, clearly they are not. That is why this Government is having to raise fuel excise taxes by 9c a litre, increasing the cost of living for hard-working New Zealanders right at the time when they can least afford to face new costs. This Government is not prepared to bring down the cost of electricity and it is prepared to increase the cost of fuel so that it can pay for its unaffordable monster motorways\u2014its roads of national significance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIs the land transport infrastructure integrated? Integrated, of course, means making sure that different modes of transport can work well together. Well, again, this Government does not believe in different modes of transport; it believes there is only one way to move people and freight around New Zealand, and that is with cars and trucks. It does not believe in rail and it does not believe in coastal shipping, so of course it does not want the purpose of this Act to be that land transport should be integrated, because it simply does not believe in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EDoes it want to be safe? Well, the Government has already withdrawn funding from local councils for their safety promotion programmes, so it is making it harder for councils to make their roads and their pedestrians and cycleways safer. But, in fact, the Government has also indicated that it is prepared to sacrifice the lives of people travelling on local roads, the lives of cyclists, and the lives of motorcyclists, so that it can pay for its roads of national significance. So of course this Government does not want to have safety included in the purpose of this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIs it responsive? Well, it certainly will not be responsive to New Zealand\u2019s needs. It will be responsive to this Government\u2019s fixation with roads, but nothing else. And is it sustainable? Well, we know that the least sustainable form of transport is the car, especially the car carrying a single occupant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo this Government has no commitment to a sustainable land transport system. That is why the National Government is gutting the Land Transport Management Act by doing away with all of that and simply narrowing it down to \u201Ceffective, efficient, and safe.\u201D Well, I do not believe the safe bit, because the Government has not demonstrated its commitment to safety, and \u201Ceffective and efficient\u201D basically just means \u201CDoes it implement National\u2019s fixation on roads?\u201D. That is all this bill is about, and that is all the Act will be able to achieve once this bill is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe other thing that this bill does is it removes the ability for local councils to implement a regional fuel tax if they choose\u2014if they choose. The current Act does not commit anybody to a regional fuel tax, but what this does is take away that option. We know that the Government\u2019s programme is unaffordable, and that is why it has had to increase fuel taxes to pay for its monster motorways. It says that that is what it is all about\u2014it is about paying for the roads of national significance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EEven if we believe that it is about building roads\u2014and most people do not; most people think that the increase to the fuel excise tax has a lot more to do with helping this Government reach its surplus, because it has failed to actually get the economy moving, so it had got to reach its surplus somehow else, and that is by increasing taxes on ordinary New Zealanders. But even if we believe that it is about building roads, we know that, actually, only CPI increases are required for the Government to meet its roading programme. If the Government would just take a sustainable approach to transport infrastructure, if it would not stick to its politically motivated programme that ensures that a group of projects is started before the next election and another group of projects is started before the election after that, if it would abandon that political motivation and focus on a sustainable approach to land transport, then those excessive increases to fuel taxes would not have been required, and New Zealanders would have just a little bit more left in their back pocket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EBut we know that sense and planning have nothing to do with this Government\u2019s approach to land transport infrastructure. It is all about ideological madness. The next example of the ideological madness is using a public-private partnership to build Transmission Gully. This bill allows for greater use of borrowing to build the Government\u2019s unaffordable transport infrastructure. It cannot afford to pay for it, even with its excessive tax increases, so it needs to open up the opportunity for borrowing. Well, a public-private partnership is the worst possible form of borrowing that it could undertake. There is no evidence that a public-private partnership is more efficient or more effective than simply using the public sector model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIn fact, this Government was not prepared to release the public sector comparator for Transmission Gully. It is not prepared to tell the public how much it thinks it would cost to build Transmission Gully under the traditional model. I think the reason for that is that it knows that the public-private partnership will not stack up against the traditional model. The Government has not been able to demonstrate that it will cost less to build it by a public-private partnership. It relies solely on intangible, supposed benefits and simply relies on the theory that the private sector can do it better. The evidence says that that is just wrong. If you look around the world, all you have to do is look across the Tasman at Australia. We know that public-private partnerships for roading infrastructure have often been a dismal failure there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo we need to get the Government actually looking at the real options, not adhering itself to ideological madness. We know why the Government is doing this. We know why the Government is doing this, because look at the enthusiasm from the private sector to provide this money. The enthusiasm was enormous because the private sector saw an opportunity for a low-risk, high-return investment\u2014a low-risk, high-return investment. The Government has taken all the risk out of Transmission Gully. It does not matter how many people use it. It does not matter whether it is the right road or whether people end up using it or not. The private investors will get their money. It is going to cost New Zealanders $2 billion more than it ought to. It is going to cost New Zealand taxpayers $2 billion more than it needs to. Why? So that the National Party can provide a low-risk, high-return investment for its mates. That is who it is about, not New Zealanders, not road users, and not public transport users. This is all about the National Party\u2019s mates. That is what it is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EOver on this side of the House, we believe in an integrated system. We believe that roads are important, we believe that rail is important, and we believe that coastal shipping is important. We do need an integrated system. That is why the purpose of this bill should be about building an affordable, safe, and integrated system that is sustainable. That is what this Government is taking away with this bill. It is going to ruin our transport infrastructure, and it locks us in to a 1950s vision of transport. This is a fossilised Government that is stuck in the past. The bill is going to be detrimental to the economy up and down New Zealand, as New Zealanders are forced to pay for this madness and for monster motorways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5742f0eccf14386add04edf8744581f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5742f0eccf14386add04edf8744581f\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I never thought I would say these words in this House, but I wish Phil Twyford was back. Phil Twyford was the reasonable, sensible face of Labour Party transport policy. Now the Labour Party has given up not only economic policy to the Green Party but transport policy to the Green Party. What kind of Labour Party are you? What kind of Opposition is the Labour Party when the Green Party dictates your policy, and the Green Party tells you what to say in this House? Be a real Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a0a89fb40a45bbb8a784b309f0c0c2\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe that it is outside of Standing Orders to suggest that any members or parties are under the influence of any other group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463cdeb62afa4d6393add60a13d901a9\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not\u2014[Interruption] Order! I do not believe that the assertion was made that the member was under an influence. I understand that it is a reasonably fine point, but I do not think that that assertion was made with clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224948ce780fbf4fde82072a4ec8f22e27\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, those members are so sensitive, but they are going to be more sensitive when the regions of New Zealand hear these words, the words coming from the Labour Party spokesperson on transport, that the car is the least sustainable form of transport. I will say that again: the car is the least sustainable form of transport. Another thing he said in his speech was that there will be only CPI increases for the transport budget\u2014only CPI increases. The other thing he said was that the Government is wasting money on outmoded transport infrastructure and big projects like monster highways. Labour will not support the roads of national significance. That is true, is it not, Darien Fenton? I know it is, because in Hamilton we have the Waikato Expressway being built. I would like to see the day when a Labour member of Parliament or Minister-in-waiting comes to Hamilton and actually says that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b78e894f559479b9ae720c5552171cc\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Been there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52730d54cdd4d57a3bf947120bd74ca\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, they cannot come and say that. They came to the paper. It was in the Waikato Times a few months ago. Martin Gallagher, that great MP from Hamilton West, who is nearly as great as the current MP from Hamilton West, asked the question of the Labour Party members: \u201CDo you actually mean what you say?\u201D, and they would not answer. The members of the Labour Party would not answer that, because they know that they cannot go to Hamilton and say that they are not going to support the roads of national significance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227721d580fe644c708dc485415aa1fd7c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What did Sue Moroney say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dec0c0e06ba5486a9c72a45d044b6b7a\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Sue Moroney does not have any opinion on this matter. That is the Labour Party: no opinion, because it knows that it is bad policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI wait for the day when that member Iain Lees-Galloway and the leader of the Labour Party come to Hamilton and are asked by the councillors and the mayor and all the big parties in Hamilton whether they are going to support the roads of national significance and the Waikato Expressway, and they will not say a word. They will not say a word, because they want to go into the next election having no commitment on this. But their real feeling is that they will not support it, and today we have seen this in this House. That is a shame, and that is why you are going to lose provincial votes. Do not give in to the Green Party any more. Be a true Labour Party: stand up for reason and for Labour Party values. You are not the Green Party. We look forward to this Land Transport Management Amendment Bill progressing through Parliament. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002253136b7220ec41689c0e367ef3fb7487\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253136b7220ec41689c0e367ef3fb7487\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. I want to start by acknowledging the previous speaker, David Bennett, and the rant from the previous speaker. My question to him and also to the other member from Hamilton, Tim Macindoe, is why is he so desperate to have people from Hamilton getting out of Hamilton and going to Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5c279a389b402a9ecbad50f9a92dc2\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022512e5f3cdd12478e8c24fbf401ee1259\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you must be. You must be, because you go on and on and on about the Waikato Expressway. That is what it is for. You want to see people from Hamilton going to Auckland because they cannot get jobs in Hamilton because that member has done nothing about job creation, just like the rest of his Government. That was a rant from that member, but we have come to expect that. I would like to advise the House that, actually, in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee he shows a little bit more decorum, and he did chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287be8ae9ede842298b6b50106565e61a\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5842628338b44f98e75d72d7d29a7cd\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes\u2014not when Andrew Little was there. Now Sue Moroney is back we can probably expect to see lots of decorum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThere were 98 submissions on this bill, and we heard 29 submissions. One of the good things the select committee did was to go to Auckland to hear from interested parties. That is quite unusual, really, for this Government, which seems to want to cut back on the select committee process frequently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E So returning to the bill, having praised the chair of the select committee\u2014and he was too busy shouting across the House to listen, which is pretty common, may I say\u2014I want to talk about the bill a wee bit because its purpose is to reform the Land Transport Management Act 2003. I thought I would inject a little bit of history into the Land Transport Management Act 2003 because that was a brilliant piece of work done by the former Labour Government and it represented the biggest change in land transport funding and management since the 1980s. Prior to that it was a complete mess. The land transport management funding framework was incredibly flawed. There was no strategic direction. It did not allow for an integrated approach to be taken to land transport because it focused on roading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWell, here we are, 10 years afterwards and we have a bill that is all about roading. This bill undermines all of the good work that was done with that Act, along with the Public Transport Management Act. It made significant strides in our land transport systems, including public transport. But of course public transport takes a back seat under this Government. All of that work\u2014there was a 2008 Act, also brought in by the Labour Government, that enhanced New Zealand\u2019s transport planning and funding system. That Act provided for fuel excise duty for land transport purposes and changed the way that fuel excise is set, to provide more certainty for future investment. That was a very progressive move by the previous Labour Government. We increased the investment in public transport tenfold and the funding for passenger transport services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhile I am talking about the history of this bill can I also just remind the House that it was Labour that initiated double tracking, electrification, an extension of passenger transport to other parts of Auckland, the reopening of railway links, some of which are now being closed, and the North Shore busway. I was just gobsmacked to hear Steven Joyce\u2014the Hon Steven Joyce\u2014claiming credit for the electrification and the double tracking of the Auckland rail system, because I know that is not true. I live in west Auckland. I know who started that project. I know it was Labour that did that, and I found it pretty outrageous actually that Steven Joyce would try to take credit for that. I suppose he has to in a way though, because there are not many other public transport system initiatives that he can take credit for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I said, this bill undoes much of the good work that was done in the 2003 Land Transport Management Act. It does show that the Government has realised that its roads of national significance projects are too expensive and it is going to have to borrow to fund them, or make them all toll roads. Without increasing petrol tax beyond the CPI adjustments, the New Zealand Transport Agency would need to borrow $930 million over the next 5 years to keep the roads of national significance on track. Let us say that again\u2014$930 million will need to be borrowed over the next 5 years to keep the roads of national significance on track That is why we have to have this bill. The Government has realised that it cannot afford it, and it is going to set it up so it can borrow more. It can set up public-private partnerships, and it can toll people, hard-working people who are already struggling to get by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe change in the purpose section, in clause 4, I think says it all. I will talk a little bit more about that when we get to the Committee stage, but the only reason that I can see that the Government is making changes to the purpose section is that it no longer wants a transport system that is affordable, integrated, safe, sustainable, and accessible, or one that promotes public health and environmental and social responsibility. That is the only conclusion one can draw from the fact that the Government has amended the purpose section. It is about National trying to tighten its control of land transport so it can cherry-pick more projects to suit itself. The sad thing about that is it removes, and this bill removes, the opportunities for local communities to support transport projects that benefit them. That is something that I think communities are getting pretty outraged about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe bill reduces opportunities for the community to have input into transport systems. Every community should have the ability to have its say about its transport systems. But what have we got? We have got the debacle in Auckland where you now have a consensus on a way forward for funding for transport, and the Government will not have a bar of it\u2014will not have a bar of it. They brought together a whole lot of people\u2014business, unions, transport experts, the cycling forum\u2014all sorts of people have come together and agreed on a system of funding into the future for Auckland, and the Government is just pulling that they are the big boys in town. Wellington should tell Auckland what it has to do for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI live in Auckland and I support the plans that have come from our council about the future. I am sick of being on roads that are jammed to the hilt. I do not believe that building more roads will change that. In fact in Auckland there is nowhere to build more roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c039dfd6c044ae1899d53c122210c9a\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Come to Hamilton. We\u2019ll take you round Hamilton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc36a8a118914cb68e6962803e584290\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, you are sending the people to Auckland. That is the problem. If you stop sending all those people to Auckland through the expressway, we probably would not have so many problems. I am sick of that. I want to see a city in the future that is supported by this Government. It is not supported by the Government. The wonderful unitary plan that has been widely consulted on throughout the city is being ignored by the Government. It does not want communities to have any say in the future of their cities or their transport systems. That is what this bill does. The Government also continues to underfund local roading. It sees a subsidy on State highways, which receive $142,509 per kilometre compared with $7,573 per kilometre for local roads. So a huge subsidy is going into State highways, compared with the local roads. I am sure that other speakers are going to want to talk about Transmission Gully and the expensive project that is turning out to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill, as I said at the beginning, undoes all the good work that was done by Labour over 10 years. We inherited a mess in the road transport system. We put in place some very, very good systems and projects. We allowed communities\u2014wanted communities\u2014to have a say. This bill undoes all of that and goes back to roads, roads, roads, like we had the last time National was in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c665f405f59748ccafb44679923b949a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c665f405f59748ccafb44679923b949a\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou, kia ora. I rise to oppose this bill, the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, but it is probably more aptly called the \u201CRoad to Nowhere Bill\u201D. You could call it the \u201CPut It On the Credit Card and Pray For a Brighter Future Bill\u201D. But I guess most important for our National MPs who are all fired up now, many of them who do represent the regions, is that you could also call this the \u201CRegional Road Kill Bill\u201D, because what this bill is doing is taking away regional decision making. It is taking away regional autonomy. It is basically saying that this Government does not care about the regions. No, no; this Government cares only about motorways in the big cities. It cares only about these uneconomic roads of so-called National Party significance. All it cares about is putting it on the credit card and borrowing more for these uneconomic roads. I believe it should be called the \u201CRegional Road Kill Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, deals with transport planning and funding issues. It is a big deal because it deals with the future of our economy, the future of our cities, and the future of our towns and the way that Kiwis get around, whether that is going to be more expensive or cheaper, faster or slower, stuck in gridlock or not. These are key issues for our country, and the Greens have got solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EAgain, it was a very low-quality contribution that we saw from the member from the Waikato David Bennett, but I think he did touch on the change and how it was seen under Labour. I celebrate this. I congratulate this. Labour in its last term did do some great things for transport, particularly in Auckland. I would like to congratulate the Labour Party on the moves around electrification and double tracking in Wellington and Auckland\u2014good stuff. I would like to think the Labour Party has moved with the times, because the National Party, these guys\u2014and it is all guys in the House today\u2014are stuck in the 1960s. They are stuck in a 1960s approach to transport. We see this in this bill that is all about removing local decision-making, putting more money on the credit card for motorways, and reducing the regions\u2019 decision-making ability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I would like to acknowledge the select committee process, thank all the submitters, thank the officials, and thank the members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. There were some improvements, I understand. I did not get the privilege to sit on the committee, but I understand that a new clause 43A has been inserted. This is around the privacy concerns about tolling. This is something I talked about in my first reading speech, based on concerns raised by the Privacy Commissioner, so it is good to see some solutions proposed and the improvements to the legislation there. Other changes are around regional public transport plans and the hierarchy making with the Government policy statement on transport planning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EBut, you know, let us get to the heart of this bill. What this bill is all about is the Government\u2019s motorway agenda. When I was the transport spokesperson for the Greens, I used to call Steven Joyce the \u201CColossus of Roads\u201D, but we have got Gerry Brownlee in the transport ministry now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e3f5bd393b746c6b25033b397c746f2\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s Gerry\u2014he\u2019s a serious colossus. There\u2019s a serious colossus there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ae34d037244741ae23459ed6439adc\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and if there was a \u201CColossus of Roads\u201D, there sure is with Gerry Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat we see is that this Minister with considerable power has been given a pantry, which he has stocked with $20 billion worth of transport funding. The Minister of Transport does not have to go off to the Minister of Finance to get his spending approved. This Minister has got a pantry stocked with $20 billion paid for from the fuel excise tax and the diesel charges, and what we have seen is that this Government has totally cleaned out the pantry. The pantry is bare because it has spent it all on the roads of so-called national significance. The pantry is bare because it has spent it on the motorways\u2014the Transmission Gullies, the uneconomic road from P\u016Bhoi to Wellsford. That is why, as Darien Fenton pointed out, it is needing to borrow almost an extra $1 billion to fund the roads of national significance\u2014the seven motorways in the cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESo the agenda behind this bill is bad news because it does not even meet its own economic objectives. We know that the benefit-cost ratios for half of them would get any National member laughed out of a business board meeting if they proposed to go and borrow billions of dollars with benefit-cost ratios of less than one. Take Transmission Gully. Independent estimates previously put that at a ratio of 0.4. For P\u016Bhoi to Wellsford, independent estimates put it at a ratio of 0.7. So for every dollar the National Government is going and borrowing from New Zealanders\u2014borrowing from the future\u2014it is planning to lose 30c to 60c. It would get laughed out of any business board meeting, but somehow it is doing it to our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis Government is removing the five previous transport objectives in the legislation: the objectives of being affordable, integrated, safe, responsible, and sustainable. I do not know what the National Party has got against being affordable, integrated, safe, responsible, or sustainable, but obviously it has got some concerns about those points, which I think Kiwis would find surprising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe rationale behind this bill is tilting the balance of power as we make decisions on these key transport issues that shape our cities, towns, and economy. We are seeing considerable and enhanced powers given to the Minister of Transport. We are seeing consultation provisions being removed. We are even removing the non-voting members of regional transport committees. These are the people who sit on committees and do good work advocating for walking and cycling. It is a pretty hard job at the moment because the pantry is being made bare to spend money on these roads of uneconomic national significance. The Government is even getting rid of these people, who stand up in their community and advocate for walking, cycling, or public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Government is removing the regional fuel taxes. This is quite interesting, because the Government has the power of veto over any regional fuel tax right at the moment, so what it is doing with this legislation is quite literally putting its foot on the floor, rubbing it in, and making sure that regional fuel taxes are an impossibility. It is disappointing, because Auckland, which is obviously disappointed by the Government\u2019s 1960s transport agenda, is setting out to try to provide solutions for its city\u2014solutions that the city needs, like the central business district rail link. But what this Government is doing is making it virtually impossible for Auckland to be able to raise the funds itself. There are other potential funding mechanisms that Auckland Council is investigating and considering, but this Government is making it harder to see the transport solutions that city needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing is an increase in borrowing under this legislation. I think we should have an intelligent and considered debate around the hypothecation of transport funding. I think there are some pros and cons. I mean, we are not going to see an intellectual, considered debate in this House with the National Government on the Government benches, but we have got to have a conversation. At the moment the funding raised from fuel taxes on diesel and petrol is spent on roads, for everything from public transport to road safety campaigns to policing through to motorways, and what this Government is saying is that it has blown the budget on the motorways and it has got to borrow more to fund it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis is an incredible statement, because over the National Land Transport Fund\u2019s 10-year funding horizon, which the Government allocates through the Government policy statement, it has got around $20 billion. Any other ministry would love to have a $20 billion kitty to play with over 10 years, and all this Government is saying is that it has blown it all and it needs extra money\u2014it needs to put it on the credit card. Of course there is an argument for long-term borrowing to fund infrastructure investments across generations, but, look, this should be only in a situation where the infrastructure investments make sense, have good business cases, and have a good rationale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe reason why the budget has blown out, of course, is that while the Government is off borrowing billions for these uneconomic motorways, what we have seen is road patronage flattening down, petrol prices go up considerably over the last 5 years, and public transport go through the roof in the last 5 years. We are seeing fewer funds in the National Land Transport Fund, so the Government has to go to the bank to borrow some more for the motorways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIt is not a good way to run the economy, it is not a good way to plan for our cities, and New Zealand is stuck in traffic because the Government is not offering alternatives to ride or walk to work, or to catch a bus or a train. Because those solutions are not there, it is going to be the Aucklanders in congestion cursing the National Government, because what it is doing through this \u201CPut It On the Credit Card and Pray For a Brighter Future Bill\u201D, or the \u201CRegional Road Kill Bill\u201D, is not going to be providing the solutions our cities and towns need for the future. That is what the Green Party is doing. We have done it for a long time, and it is something we will continue to champion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn Government\u2014sooner rather than later, we believe\u2014what you will see a Green Government doing is funding a fair contribution towards the central business district rail link. We will be seeing things like the light rail link in Wellington. We will be trying to make public transport more affordable. Of course, this is going to help people get on the bus or safely cycle to work. It is also going to help those motorists because the more people we have taking sustainable forms of transport, the more room there is on the roads for the taxis and the plumbers, whom Michael Cullen used to talk about fondly. In summary, this is a bad bill. That is why we are opposing it. It is a 1960s approach to transport. I believe the Green Party is reflecting the future and the solutions this country needs, and I am proud to be championing them in Parliament. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u002226f6bd90415a4bdbb93f266efdfb7987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226f6bd90415a4bdbb93f266efdfb7987\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on this Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. It is just a shame that we could not beam the contribution from the previous member, Gareth Hughes, into the households of New Zealanders on the 6 o\u2019clock news, because, by crikey, would it do some fantastic things for the party vote for this party and put his party vote back where it belongs at about 0 percent. That contribution from that member, matched by the Greens\u2019 friends in the Labour Party, shows exactly what those people think about what New Zealanders care about, which is infrastructure to provide an economic platform and to provide productivity. This bill goes to the heart\u2014it goes to the heart\u2014of providing the freeways, the highways, and the byways into the economic engine of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EMembers from that party will wander up to Northland once a year to have their retreats. They have some fish and chips at the Mangonui fish and chip shop, they snap a couple of photos, they pontificate about the challenges of Northland, they come back to this place, and then say that the P\u016Bhoi to Wellsford road of national significance is the first thing they will get rid of. They would not say that up there. They would not say that up there, because they know what sort of reaction that would get. They do not understand that the importance of that road to the New Zealand economy is something that this party does understand, and that is why that road of national significance is on track and will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhen we had the whole of region economic summits in Northland, and when we asked what the biggest issue is for Northland\u2019s economic growth and prosperity, what was it? It was State Highway 1\u2014State Highway 1. The New Zealand Transport Agency said it would be a $35 million to $45 million addition to the Northland economy per year. That was back in 2011. I drilled into those figures a little bit further with our local economist: 15 percent of the Northland economy, that is $1,800 million per year, travels down that road, and by our improving that roading infrastructure it is not only about safety but also about empowering the Northland economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThis legislation goes to the heart of providing the synergy across national land transport planning and programming with the regions, because there is a disconnect with what the regions are doing in many respects, and getting synergy is about efficiency and understanding how this whole country works and the importance of the roading network in it. I wholeheartedly commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8dcf36a49de418193fb33842491660e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8dcf36a49de418193fb33842491660e\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The aim of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill is to change the funding framework for land transport activities including roading, public transport, and road safety; repeal regional fuel tax provisions; change the framework for assessing road toll schemes; establish a policy framework for the relationship between regional councils and public transport operators; and bring the existing road toll at Tauranga under the Act\u2019s road toll regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe changes made to the planning and funding provisions of the Act that I wish to mention include the funding framework being focused on the effectiveness and efficiency of public expenditure; the decision-making criteria being changed to emphasise the effectiveness, efficiency, and safety of the system; the replacement of the national land transport strategy with a statement on land transport used to set central government\u2019s outcomes, objectives, and impacts; the removal of non-voting representatives from regional land transport committees; and the repeal of regional fuel tax provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EStarting with the objective and functions of the agency, I note that the changes to the objectives of the agency from the achievement of \u201Can affordable, integrated, safe, responsive, and sustainable land transport system.\u201D to the achievement of \u201Can effective, efficient, and safe land transport system\u201D will be a huge mistake for New Zealand. Essentially, it means that the Government is interested only in saving money as the first priority, but much more is at stake. The agency must seek much better integration of transport modes. As the era of the dominance of fossil fuel transport comes to an end, mostly because of the increasing costs and risks of production and the increased competitiveness of alternative energy sources; as the dominance of the use of cars for peak-time travel is increasingly non-viable in the big cities, especially at peak times; and as the competitiveness of other modes and the huge increases in road network expansion and maintenance increasingly favour those other modes, it will be increasingly necessary to ensure a properly integrated system so that the best use can be made of all modes and of the alternatives to more cars and more and bigger expensive motorways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESimilarly, it will be essential for New Zealand to design a transport system\u2014especially for freight from one end of New Zealand to the other, and especially for personal transport at peak times in the larger cities\u2014that is sustainable, and that means economically, socially, and environmentally sustainable. If that ceases to be an objective, then the vast effects of the transport system will not be adequately controlled and mitigated. As a result, the viability and usefulness of the system will be so seriously compromised that the Government\u2019s own stated objectives in relation to efficiency and effectiveness will actually become unachievable. But, most of all, the very environment on which we rely for healthy lives and a good quality of life will also be degraded, and that is not the \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D any of us want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe bill will also entrench the current situation with us for decades under successive National and Labour Governments\u2014a situation in which we will continue not to have a genuine and comprehensive New Zealand transport strategy. The intent of the bill, under which the Government will issue a Government Policy Statement on Land Transport, will not be a sufficient basis upon which the planning and funding of our future land transport needs and options can be based. Land transport will continue to be a political football kicked about in different directions by whichever political flavour is in power at any particular time. It will ensure that there is no coherent, long-term strategy that we can work towards. It will mean the wasting of huge amounts of public funds on doing what we have always done: failing to provide for fundamental future changes that will be imposed on us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EWe need an entirely new approach that converts our system to one that over time makes much better use of our vast renewable energy opportunities, reduces dependence on imported liquid fuels, and replaces more clogged motorways with attractive, safe, comfortable, and affordable public transport systems, as well as facilitating more cycling, especially at peak times. In my work on the city council I accepted the need for a better road network and, indeed, led the project for the completion of the ring road there and supported the completion of the southern motorway. But I also introduced, however, a living streets concept so that roads would be designed to enhance neighbourhoods and safety while making good provision for both road traffic and the prioritisation of public transport. I think Fendalton Road is an exemplar of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI went and studied examples of advanced, modern integrated systems such as those I found in Portland, Oregon, where I saw a cut-off motorway ramp. The city had simply said: \u201CThis is enough. These motorways stop here.\u201D Instead, they replaced them with a new light rail system and much better bus services. That city is now one that we should look at as an example to follow. We must learn the lessons from other countries where the headlong race to build more road capacity has resulted only in more demand, especially at peak times; Los Angeles is the exemplar for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe effect is a vicious circle that costs vast sums in capital expenditure and increased maintenance costs, and in addition it causes very large increases in externalities such as the costs of accidents, health care, and deaths, and the increased costs in relation to pollution, waste, delays, community severance, business dislocation, and so on and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI note also that some of the best aspects of regional transport administration will be removed by this bill. The non-voting representatives of a prescribed list of interests as members of regional land transport committees are removed. This reinforces the Government\u2019s disregard for the integration of land transport modes and its determination to favour road transport over all other modes through planning and funding mechanisms. From my experience the quality of input of volunteer experts in public transport, transport safety, cycling, walking, business operations, and so on is too valuable to lose. It is just another way in which this Government is intent on the minimisation of local democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe removal of these people is just silly, but worse still is the intention to remove the option of regional fuel taxes. Although issues in relation to these are significant, they are certainly not insurmountable. If a regional council can persuade its population in favour of such a tax, it offers an inexpensive, effective, and fair way of funding important regional transport initiatives that might otherwise not be achievable. The removal of this option is a great shame and is entirely unjustifiable. We need to try to broaden the funding base, not narrow it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is focused on a sustainable transport system. We want more from the system than just roads. We want a modern rail system integrated with good roading, shipping, and air transport systems. We want to develop these with Kiwi expertise, rather than buying this from overseas, and the same applies to transport equipment, especially railway wagons and electric locomotives. That creates more jobs and more economically and environmentally sustainable transport facilities for this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s direction in this bill is entirely misconceived. It will damage New Zealand\u2019s economy, social well-being, and environment for decades to come. We will, therefore, certainly vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00229b53e79474534a2d8888fab65963a7f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b53e79474534a2d8888fab65963a7f0\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take over from Mr Denis O\u2019Rourke. Although his speech, to my ears, was for the most part very positive and obviously coming from a good, solid knowledge and experience base, I am still not quite sure whether he is going to vote for the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill or against it. Let us hope that he is going to vote for it, because this is a very important bill, and one that will serve the country well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIt is a disappointment to me to hear members on the other side speaking so negatively about such an important bill. I thought during the select committee process\u2014and I am sure my colleagues think the same\u2014that they were reasonably responsive, they were open to argument, they reasoned things quite well, and there was a touch of collaboration there, until we got back in the House. Then off Labour went with the Greens to satisfy its left-wing trade union base and sycophantic supporters, and out the window went common sense, reasoned argument, and any suggestion of collaboration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ELabour should be braver. It is a disappointment to me, and it lets those members down. It is a disappointment to the voting public and to those who will be assisted by the passage of this bill, and there are a lot of those. Fortunately, we will pass this bill. I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022894dbfe236a24bf6917f433c32f35cf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022894dbfe236a24bf6917f433c32f35cf2\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E For the avoidance of any doubt for my friend Mr Auchinvole across the aisle there, Labour will be opposing this bill, the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. It is a bad bill. It will do nothing for transport. This bill is a bit of a curate\u2019s egg. There are actually some good bits in it, but the rest of it is rotten and stinks. We are opposed to it, and we will not swallow this bill. In reference to Denis O\u2019Rourke and Iain Lees-Galloway, this is a bill that does give you the dry horrors, even just thinking about it. It does get us pretty choked up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI raise a question: what is this bill going to do for State Highway 3 in north Taranaki? David Bennett will know that State Highway 3 is the only northern link to Waikato. There are a lot of Hamiltonians who, when they need a break from that thriving city, that exciting city, come down the coast, down State Highway 3, to enjoy the delights of Taranaki\u2014the mountain, the surf; the things you do not get in the Waikato. When you get sick of green paddocks and the flush of milk, you come down to Taranaki because you get the flush of milk and the green paddocks but you get the surf and you get the mountain as well. That is why a lot of Hamiltonians come down here. There are two very notable roads in Taranaki. The other is the Forgotten World Highway, which some people mistake for the pathway to the National Party research office, or sometimes Aaron Gilmore\u2019s office. But it is not the Forgotten World Highway that we have to worry about because the residents on that highway quite like the way it is. That goes not quite all the way to Waikato; it heads off towards the other mountain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EState Highway 3 is a very important road to Taranaki and it has never featured on the list of roads of national significance under this Government, in spite of the fact that it carries every day literally tens of millions of dollars\u2019 worth of valuable product. It is a lifeline to Taranaki\u2014it is a lifeline to Taranaki. Most of the heavy lorries that supply the supermarkets and the shops have to go through State Highway 3 in north Taranaki. Many of the trucks, laden with Taranaki gold, the crude oil that is pulled out of the ground in the safe, extractive industries that are occupied there, have to go on State Highway 3. You would think, given that in that region there are no fewer than three National Party MPs\u2014none of whom sit in the full Cabinet; the real Cabinet\u2014that the Government might actually listen to what those members have to say. But, no, it does not. Never a word has been spoken about State Highway 3. The only concession given by this Government is to spend $15 million on 30 metres of road, which is a bridge just out of New Plymouth. The remaining 100 kilometres between New Plymouth and Piopio were ignored by this Government, until I actually raised this issue of State Highway 3 recently, and Jonathan Young has talked about but since. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ELet me tell you about that road. It is a dangerous road. There are heavy lorries going on it, and they have to negotiate poor paving and poor bridge abutments. It is very dangerous if you are a truck driver, that is why we have very skilled truck drivers in Taranaki. It is very poor quality. Then they have got the Awakino gorge, which has been a point of debate for, frankly, decades. There would not be a year goes by when that piece of road is not closed for several hours because of an accident, as it was only a month or so ago. Then there is Mount Messenger\u2014another very dangerous piece of road. Millions of dollars have been spent on repaving, trying to get it upgraded, and expanding the tunnels that are up there, but that does not improve the productivity of the roading. You would think that a Government concerned about productivity and good quality roads, and not wanting to make political gestures all the time, would look closely at that road. This Government has not done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is nothing in this bill\u2014nothing in this bill\u2014that will shift this Government away from its highly dodgy benefit-cost analyses on its roads of national significance to have a look properly and in a considered way at roads that are of value to significant communities. Taranaki punches well above its weight in the contributions that it makes to the national coffers through taxes on income, GST, and royalties on those goods extracted out of the ground. Taranaki pays an enormous amount, and it is not too much to ask for a decent long-term plan on the upgrade of State Highway 3. It is long overdue and we have the means to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOne of the dangers of this bill, of course, is that we hand everything over to the New Zealand Transport Agency. This was the agency that only 2 years ago made an accounting error to the tune of $182 million\u2014$182 million\u2014and we want to give it the responsibility for oversight of this relaxation on tolling, making it easier to introduce toll roads, and for the introduction of a much less wholesome consideration of what is needed for our roads. It now wants to reduce that to criteria that focus on effectiveness, efficiency, and safety\u2014never mind the cost to the public. The old wording, which required a much broader consideration when it came to roading decisions, is much more important. It requires that there be consideration of integration of not just roading transport but public transport and other modes of transport as well. That is all gone under this bill. That is wrong\u2014that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EProvincial centres like New Plymouth, which some might describe in terms of \u201Cisolated\u201D cities, which really have only one road in from the south and one road in from the north, are dependent on quality decisions being made under legislation like this and by agencies like the New Zealand Transport Agency. But nothing in this bill will improve the considerations and the quality of decision making when it comes to Taranaki roads. State Highway 3 south of New Plymouth has a highly problematic stretch at what is called the Normanby bridge. That is a 30-metre bridge as well but it happens to be on a dog-leg, and it is the cause of many, many accidents and many fatalities, with another fatality\u2014just another fatality\u2014only earlier this year. Yet the Taranaki Regional Council cannot get this Government to understand that real funding is needed to correct that problem. That roading and the structure of that roading would be an easy problem to correct, but it cannot get funding for it. Indeed, the Taranaki Regional Council ended up having to challenge the New Zealand Transport Agency when it said: \u201CChoose between your Waiwhakaiho bridge and your Normanby bridge.\u201D Taranaki Regional Council said: \u201CNo, we\u2019re sick of having to choose between two difficult projects.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOf course, what the Taranaki Regional Council could not also say was: \u201CBut we\u2019ve also got just as much of a problem with State Highway 3 north.\u201D That problem remains. There is only one MP in this House advocating the case for State Highway 3. It does not have to be a four-lane motorway into Waikato; it just needs to be a proper, decent, safe road rather than what is presently a very dangerous stretch of road. There is only one MP making that case, and that is the list MP based in New Plymouth, and that is me. The Government MPs in that area show no interest in standing up to the senior members of their caucus, their members in Cabinet, to say: \u201CWe need to fix this problem for the good of Taranaki.\u201D The Government members will happily turn up to the opening of the peaker plants, the new drilling rigs, and all that sort of stuff, but when it comes to infrastructure for Taranaki they turn a blind eye and they have nothing to say. Thank goodness for the list MP based in New Plymouth who is prepared to take on the hard issues and make the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2fd8a47699044e2b42105a18f855f7e\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f81511768a7a4ca0a0cd3ea188d36f07\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00228f484c938e6c452b88c09cf92efcfb3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f484c938e6c452b88c09cf92efcfb3d\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make the business statement for the next week of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf5d97a29af94dbca4c5f9744e0966ca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make the business statement? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b74070393e24b3e95ba9b971f6cc18c\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: When the House resumes on Tuesday, 14 May the Government will look to progress the Education Amendment Bill, the financial review debate on the performance and current operations of Crown entities, State enterprises, and other public organisations, and Government notice of motion No. 1, relating to the budgets for the Offices of Parliament. Wednesday is a members\u2019 day and Thursday is Budget day. With the agreement of the Business Committee, Dr Jackie Blue will deliver her valedictory at 5.45 p.m. on the Wednesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022918d84fd962647e19e8a821d679ea82e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022918d84fd962647e19e8a821d679ea82e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Can we have an assurance that there will be an opportunity for Mr Gilmore to speak if, in fact, he resigns over the weekend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5722a7eebc443008bfbbe8c16da2215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5722a7eebc443008bfbbe8c16da2215\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I move to question No. 1, in the name of Jacqui Dean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264e754b221744f48b2fe0f6c80ed3a15\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1e198c15a504126a41862189b438404\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aab6ee82d2764e57a759633f15d173ea\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Progress, Benefits, and Costs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002248967a58939c4480b569673a6f8e5209\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248967a58939c4480b569673a6f8e5209\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What progress is the Government making with its share offer programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00229aa06acfd5d64b2da95c89a7c81fc57e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aa06acfd5d64b2da95c89a7c81fc57e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is making good progress on the share offer programme. Last night the Government set the price for the Mighty River Power share offer at $2.50 per share. The 113,000 New Zealanders were today allocated shares through the retail sales pool, and by Friday night, tomorrow night, the Government will have collected $1.7 billion in proceeds, which will be available to the Government for investing in other public assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b27e27bce64116801a6fc793c4389e\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: How much did the Mighty River Power share offer raise for taxpayers, and how will that money be invested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f75582d2808405dbc6c8ebf094271c2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There has been, I think, a misunderstanding that somehow in selling shares the Government and the taxpayer are losing an asset. In fact, we are swapping shares for cash, and by tomorrow night the Government will have $1.7 billion in its bank account ready to invest in those projects that will be outlined in the Budget through the Future Investment Fund. Future proceeds of asset sales will also go into that fund. Parties that want to buy back the assets, or not sell them, will have to borrow the same amount of money from foreign bankers if they want to invest in the same way this Government plans to invest in infrastructure, in hospitals, in schools, and in better public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db71abfafaf2440688858738fecbc39d\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of the Government\u2019s share offer programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf2e91d870964c278fd7ab94d9b5f29f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There are many benefits. In the first place, the Government achieved its objective of widespread New Zealand ownership\u201486.5 percent of this company remains owned by New Zealanders. Secondly, it has provided an opportunity for New Zealand savers to invest their money in the share market, many of them for the first time. Thirdly, we have collected $1.7 billion in cash proceeds, which are available to the Government for reinvestment in public assets. And, finally, it is a significant move in reinforcing our public capital markets, where Mighty River Power will list as the fifth-biggest company on the stock exchange. A strong public capital market is one of the ingredients for higher incomes and more jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e9ecd35d464a9bba1e2462c44b9727\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that Treasury told the Government in the Budget Policy Statement that as a result of the Government\u2019s privatisation programme, the Government would be worse off by $90 million to $100 million every year on a net basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2eac74184c465685c2ae7979fba813\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not correct. Treasury provided a range of measures of the fiscal impact of the sales, some of which were slightly positive, and some of which were slightly negative. The Government has debated this issue for several years. We came to the view, which I believe has been vindicated, that the sale of 49 percent of this company will be good for the company, good for the economy, and good for the Government\u2019s books, and will help us to avoid the kinds of high levels of debt that the Opposition seems to favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183467e778a941f9bd2d8ae5979b6326\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek to leave\u2014I seek leave to table\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022439ec84285df4c7fbf59a02341567817\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I want to hear what the point of order is. [Interruption] Order! The member has called for a point of order. I want to hear what it is. It will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276472449ab3148f287a4f493ad859c40\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In light of the Minister\u2019s denial, I seek leave to table the Budget Policy Statement, which shows that Treasury says\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253695f9cd9174d208c77080f7d1946a8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Budget Policy Statement is available to all members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd87191a06e542cc8da67cffafd3a27d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister tell the country what the likely dividends are going to be from the replacement investments he has just mentioned, in comparison with those dividends now lost from Mighty River Power; and if there is nothing that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224333febed04e4c648bb7961ca68fdcd1\u0022\u003EHon Steven Joyce\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll be the interest on the wonderful schools and hospitals, sunshine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e441d6b03cad4ed79538037aac5f6a01\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so it is interest now, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b37c2305c184392a670f36a07394859\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the member please\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e2ce0ab9839470e99906531aca1730a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, \u201CBig Ears\u201D keeps opening his mouth when I\u2019m talking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce87df6eabe484ba9c54a95527fd039\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. It is not helpful for there to be interjection. Would the member please ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab5c4f495c074cdea6dbc1353d933274\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What will the likely dividends be from the replacement investment that he just referred to with respect to the cash he is getting from Mighty River Power, as opposed to that lost from Mighty River Power; and, if it is not in any way an equivalent, why does he expect the public to believe the bulldust he is giving us now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a5c91d2c8c4303b6779bbc81825aea\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because it is not bulldust; it is a simple fact. The $1.7 billion collected will be invested through the Future Investment Fund and other public assets. Some of those assets will not pay dividends, such as new schools, new public buildings in Christchurch, new hospitals, and other infrastructure that the Government needs to invest in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243c481115baa416a9c27fb36a7ae7dea\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received on alternative policies to the successful share offer programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022812586e585b34cbbb7fc988752bf86f2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef617cd553d4ef4b7b621bffdcf1477\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Not to sell them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222797a55f4fb64a449f5408382a185b37\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. I have seen reports of policies not to sell them, and reports of a referendum to be held to try to prevent the Government from selling them, which has so far failed because one in four of the signatures was dodgy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217bcb84609a44c72986f3cea4b689d1d\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Will he give New Zealanders a guarantee that as a result of this float, excessive power prices will not occur, as Mighty River Power looks to pay out up to 110 percent of its profits as dividends to its previous owners, as stated in the 2012 statement of corporate intent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcff0e45b4ae4336a2ba3e37619f66bf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I can guarantee the member that the fact that the company has floated has no direct effect on power prices, and that in fact the process of bringing it to the market has turned it into a very efficient, cost-effective company that will need to compete in the market against other companies in a way that will tend to hold prices down from the very high increases that occurred under that Minister\u2019s model for the electricity market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bf6668b3161498b91ec0c25a2847187\u0022\u003EWellington\u2014Economic Growth and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002232c51bc96a1c40ebb358e13e9b9649fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232c51bc96a1c40ebb358e13e9b9649fe\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement \u201CThe reality is even Wellington is dying and we don\u2019t know how to turn it around. All you have there is government, Victoria University and Weta Workshop\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00220a8ca0703ab84f139ce694e61686e7dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a8ca0703ab84f139ce694e61686e7dd\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E As the member knows, the Prime Minister himself has said that he could have chosen his words better and that he was referring to the fact that the head offices of large corporates have migrated from Wellington to Auckland over the past 45 years, which of course I agree with because it is true. However, we are very fortunate to have a number of thriving, innovative, and successful businesses in Wellington, like, for example, Weta Workshop, which may not have been the case, of course, if the Labour Party had gotten its way and we had driven the Hobbit films offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de07c7f1efb24103acc2e722a9b9e1b7\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the Minister\u2019s answer, if the Prime Minister does not think Wellington is dying, why did he say it was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e482d8d027a48e6bf32cffacc83a552\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I think I did answer that in the opening answer, which was to note that the Prime Minister himself says he could have chosen his words better. But I have more good news for the member, because the household labour force survey came out this morning and Wellington\u2019s regional unemployment rate has fallen by 0.9 percent, with an additional 14,000 more people in jobs in Wellington than in the previous quarter. So the good news is that Wellington is picking itself up and growing well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ad1aa7eb2a4891ba081e7ae23cfcd1\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does he take for Wellington dying or being under pressure, or whatever the Prime Minister\u2019s latest phrase is today, after his Government slashed thousands of Public Service jobs and failed to support manufacturing or other sectors in this city?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efea75cf421d456aa0704401ff231829\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: It is very interesting, the world that member lives in. But the reality is that this Government is investing\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b96067f75b48ce9030f964232d46d2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but we must have the ability to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cac8ef953684b80b4ef38ecf700e2a9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a pretty straightforward question, and the answer was prefaced by abuse of the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f786ac44a435413887ee93703eb5f186\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The difficulty was that it was a relatively straightforward question, I agree, but I was not able to hear the answer because of the noise. [Interruption] Order! I will now ask the Minister to continue with his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220090bd539f8a4fd88930454a9a0e6a80\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Responsibility, Steven, that\u2019s it\u2014what responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022748c6dbbfac24e69a623b6a38df7c012\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is taking responsibility for working very hard alongside Wellington to grow the Wellington economy in areas such as infrastructure, with the ultra-fast broadband; roading, which, incidentally, the member could help with if he gets some of his friends on the council to start supporting some of the transport projects around Wellington; innovation, with our investment in Callaghan Innovation, and our research and development co-funding for businesses in Wellington, the Hutt Valley, Porirua, and so on; the development of Victoria University, which is going very well and has just got an excellent result out of the Performance-based Research Fund; and, of course, industry development in areas like the movie industry, tourism, and international education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265ee6e10ae4d47b59927a856371696f8\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister said \u201CWe don\u2019t know how to turn it around.\u201D, is that a reflection on his Minister for Economic Development\u2019s complete lack of any plan to help grow the Wellington economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84724fce5cc48088bf80b660c35337a\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: It is always difficult when I end up answering the question before the member asks it in his next supplementary question. I have just given him a huge list of things that the Government is working on to develop the Wellington economy. If it is helpful for the member, I will repeat that list for him. There is the infrastructure we are investing in: the ultra-fast broadband, the roading, and, in fact, the commuter rail where we are helping Greater Wellington get a 100 percent modern fleet as a result of this Government\u2019s investment. There is our investment in Callaghan Innovation, which, of course, is headquartered in this city, and our involvement in National Science Challenges, where organisations like the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, and so on, are participating. There is our involvement in the city\u2019s business incubator, the development of Victoria University, the refocusing of the polytechnics to make sure they are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc76faa56db45eeb93928a17d0de1da\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That answer is quite sufficient. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a0808be34541649e07a4f36c551f18\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to Wellington property developer Ian Cassels, who said that John Key should resign because he is not representing New Zealand or valuing what Wellington has to offer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddfdce9a57004ff69abe435b476c0d55\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cassels, of course, represents the commercial property industry, which has struggled with the fact that the Government has not kept building brand new office buildings in Wellington every 5 minutes, like it used to under the Labour Government when it was setting itself up, under Labour, for a decade of deficits because of the amount of public sector spending it was doing. We are not doing that any more. We are not able to do that any more. What we can encourage is private sector investment and the growth of industries in Wellington, and if the member would like, I am more than happy to go through the list one more time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9ec32756274d789951e8564b7ff31f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his comments this week on Newstalk ZB about Wellington when he said \u201CAnnette\u2019s right. There\u2019s very big investment going into the IT sector and the high-tech manufacturing sector. There are lots of staff based here.\u201D, and has he thought about how he could turn round the Prime Minister\u2019s ill-informed views about Wellington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b8b36670564e09a7c5fc7ed2171f81\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do stand by my comments on Newstalk ZB this week, including my offer to support Annette King in her campaign for the mayoralty. I have run a couple of campaigns in my time, and I have to say, Annette, that you would do a moderately better job than the current mayor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b83cd06262344c8b83a5ad2ccf7b891\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Costs and Investors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00228e73c2fe52a640cba929ccf126e110bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e73c2fe52a640cba929ccf126e110bf\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How much has the asset sales programme cost, including but not limited to the expenditure on brokers\u2019 and bankers\u2019 fees, the bonus shares, advertising costs, the Treasury\u2019s internal costs, the costs borne by the companies slated to be sold, the water dispute costs, extra fees to board members and CEOs, and listing fees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022712f027421344d2190796f190bb1c052\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022712f027421344d2190796f190bb1c052\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Treasury is currently pulling together information on brokers\u2019 fees and other recent costs, and, like all other costs associated with the programme, they will be released when they are ready. I can tell the member that the most recently published information on the costs reports spending by Treasury of just over $16 million and by all mixed-ownership companies of $8.4 million. The member may also be aware that this has been part of a process that will mean the Government in the next day or so collects $1.7 billion, which will enable it to invest in other public assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c63e00eb8b0145379841413f90e4fd8f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the best estimate of the cost of the brokers\u2019 fees is about $50 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b28b4ba16b46b0a5723c5bca81fdb9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a41ba0616644f7b77c193e891c5e08\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014$50 million\u2014that the best estimate of the cost of the bonus share giveaway is about $25 million, and that the Minister has just identified about another $25 million worth of costs, has the asset sale programme not so far cost around $100 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5079b2e3d414e4bbafb06f216323185\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That may be possible. The Government has said right from the start that the costs of the programme would represent 1 to 2 percent of the proceeds. We are on track for proceeds within the range that the Government laid out some 2 years ago of $5 billion to $7 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80e695b98a54df4a3c4241c25475afb\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Government justify spending around $100 million selling Mighty River Power when just 2.5 percent of New Zealanders took up the offer? How does he justify spending around $1,000 per retail investor on this sale?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219bbd33c844c403eb19183e893a28543\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That is a bit rich coming from the member who tried to stop the sale, which would have wasted the however many millions he thought that it might cost. The Government justifies it on the basis that we will get a better-performing company, a better-performing electricity market, and better investment opportunities\u2014not just for those who bought shares directly but also for the 2 million New Zealanders who have KiwiSaver accounts. We also justify it on the basis that by the end of the week we will have $1.7 billion available to us in the Government accounts to invest in public assets. That is $1.7 billion we have not had to borrow from the foreign bankers whom this member seems to be sticking up for. Would he rather have us borrow it from his mates in foreign banks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201254bb501a945b8a416c85cccde29eb\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports on the costs of the Labour-Greens referendum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e398785d64544d8eac3ea7fb4b8a96bc\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I fail to see the ministerial responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272946ff61a0948eebc935380f42aea7e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that. I do not believe there is any ministerial responsibility at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec4787f24af49c0adecec4236c6c39c\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any other costs associated with a Labour-Greens referendum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b894fd0972654b50b4460e92f1a3f48a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I do not believe that is a responsibility\u2014[Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b2c3374e1954c71b313237c4626a1c8\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the average retail purchase of\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b91e2665ef4a5cbf45a4c304c66213\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We have still got a level of noise here that is making it hard for me to hear the supplementary question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa569775cc64e2c9488e3e7809526e2\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the average\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8dda2d23af45f3a598b61d20d3a803\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the member please start for a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fae9b16c3e44376ad3005b6e2c409f4\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the average retail purchase of Mighty River Power shares was $8,220, according to the Government, yet the typical family has less than $2,000 in the bank, does he think that the less than 3 percent of Kiwis who bought shares in this company are a representative slice of middle New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fb2050e59b44fd88f535a36886f50a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, they probably are not, but that member did his best to make sure that people with $2,000 to spend on this did not do so, by scaring them with his stupid nationalisation policy. However, we are not opposed to average New Zealand households having investments, so we are going to offer them another opportunity to buy shares, and we would hope that the member will this time encourage people with $2,000 to invest in the share floats, instead of showing his contempt for their aspiration to make their own decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a186117afa2d481d9354dc680c2479f2\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: What is his Government\u2019s message to the 97.5 percent of Kiwis who have not bought shares in Mighty River Power and who now face higher power prices in order to increase dividends to the 2.5 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbcc8026c187422ba808124ffb6baed2\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My apologies to my colleague. The barracking that is coming from behind me is making it impossible to hear the question. I am sitting right next to the questioner. It would be much easier for the whole House to hear if this barracking was made to stop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022171a2eff0c1d4e419de29f08450ee45f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is a level of noise today from all parts of the House that is unacceptable. I do not want to ask anybody to leave\u2014[Interruption] Order! But if the level of noise continues, then I am going to have to ask somebody to leave the Chamber. I would be reluctant to do that, but at this stage the noise coming from many quarters of the House is unacceptable, and I think Russel Norman should be allowed to start that supplementary question again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276237fd263a140bbad6cb64af45b7d9e\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: What is his Government\u2019s message to the 97.5 percent of Kiwis who have not bought shares in Mighty River Power and who now face higher power prices in order to pay dividends to the 2.5 percent who have bought shares in this company, and is not his Government now a Government just for the 2.5 percent and showing contempt for the 97.5 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d2842157df4dce84ac3ddcf8007e32\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Our message to them is, first, the Government owns 51 percent of this company on their behalf, and I expect that within a matter of weeks that 51 percent will be worth considerably more than it was at the beginning of this year. Secondly, our message to them is that those who manage their KiwiSaver accounts have probably made an investment in this company, and it looks like that could probably be a successful investment. My third message to them is that if they are approached by parliamentary funded Greens staff looking for their signatures, do not sign, because it is a dodgy petition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b0ba3309bcb4891b6a64a79639bb175\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a fair statement of the Government\u2019s policy to say it cut $2 billion a year in taxes on the wealthy, it then found that the cupboard was bare because there was not enough money, so it told us it had to sell assets in order to pay for schools, and then it sold those assets to the very same people to whom it gave the tax cuts? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2bd0fadfae040148f08afa02955a756\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not the case, because none of that is true. But what we would say to them is that even if that was true\u2014even if it was true\u2014the alternative of printing money, nationalising the electricity industry, nationalising the housing construction industry, and shutting down our primary production industry would probably lead to less income and fewer jobs. Those are Labour-Greens policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002223c2523e1e0c467db9cfd96556690e14\u0022\u003EState-owned Energy Companies, Sales\u2014Mighty River Power and Power Prices\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022b17345b5fee84e01b5e5ae83ca61cb23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b17345b5fee84e01b5e5ae83ca61cb23\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises: What reports has he received on the sale of a minority of shares in Mighty River Power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b18e15c1a5164f54b8fc8398b54c6e8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b18e15c1a5164f54b8fc8398b54c6e8e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E Last night the finance Minister and I were pleased to confirm the completion of the book build of the Mighty River Power share offer, which will see 113,000 New Zealanders become individual shareholders in the company on Friday, not to mention those thousands who will own the shares indirectly through KiwiSaver accounts and suchlike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb55b4b13214f259e4b50bbc530e8bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That question asked him about what reports he has received. We are getting a recitation of last night\u2019s history, but nothing about a report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8aa23539b944cde8a730202c5354a04\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister was addressing the question quite adequately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6b1ae13320d4d8bbd03d87dd9bea9da\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He is asked by the question to give a report, it is the No. 1 objective of that question, and all we are hearing is a litany of what happened last night. That is not a report at all. I want to know why he is not answering the question now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c562e6054859418b9ac0d90e00b447a2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will allow the Minister to continue the answer, and I am sure we will get the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a76f85e0e9241bf99aa4f543ec14b30\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Numerous reports I have read tell us that $1.7 billion will be returned to the Crown accounts, allowing the Government to control debt and invest in important public projects, such as the new Christchurch city hospitals. We are very pleased at the level of enthusiasm from New Zealand investors, despite 18 months of politicking from the Opposition. We look forward to seeing the Mighty River Power name on the New Zealand Exchange tomorrow\u2014Friday afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b03b4aaac0f43e6ae4b734e5eac0a2d\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government met its objectives in relation to the Mighty River Power minority share float?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e05a6316df547ddbf4d21ed8cb07e64\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Despite a year and a half of the Opposition politicking and trying to convince New Zealanders that the float was off-track and that they could not be trusted to try to buy shares in these businesses, the Government has met its objectives. We have got over 86 percent New Zealand ownership. New Zealand is at the front of the queue. Now 113,000 individual investors, thousands more through KiwiSaver and the Government Superannuation Fund, and many others have had the opportunity to get a good investment experience. As a country we are controlling our debt while providing around $1.7 billion of money for the Future Investment Fund to invest in important public assets like schools and public infrastructure such as the new Christchurch city hospitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234352cd9d11344c8afb9369e8b223f46\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: Were there any particular matters that impacted on the offer over the course of the share float; if so, what impact did these matters have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ef9f4d6a6d4843a75d5ed1196856bc\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Just 3 days into the offer period the Opposition parties set about to sabotage the offer by proposed changes to the energy sector that would strip capital and value from their investments. This economic sabotage was not thought through, and it is clear that it cost many everyday New Zealanders the opportunity to participate. It cost thousands of New Zealanders through their superannuation fund investments in already listed energy companies, and it cost taxpayers many tens of millions of dollars that could have been released in the sale of these minority shares to invest in schools and hospitals\u2014all for political gain and all in vain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146f2b1dc9b14926ae95e5b0fc0c6a78\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: If we accept the logic of the Minister\u2019s argument that the NZ Power announcement reduced the value of those electricity companies, does it not follow from the logic of his argument that the market accepts that NZ Power will reduce the price of electricity for ordinary Kiwi families and businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc7ed37a8cd4cd0931daa4a73235338\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all. I do not think that is the case at all. I think what most New Zealanders realise is that this was a case of economic sabotage, where the Opposition parties decided that they wanted to interfere with the ability of New Zealanders to make this decision. The fact is that the NZ Power proposal is not well-thought-through. The Opposition parties did not consider the consequences, and I think more and more New Zealanders, as time passes, will realise it was simply a political stunt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c372d091bfa4ca58dab6ca6d2dd7ca4\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Why does his Government insist on ploughing ahead with the sale of electricity assets when the market is not working fairly for consumers, and electricity companies are making windfall super-profits, or is the Nelson Grey Power president, Neville Male, incorrect when he says that many senior citizens cannot afford \u201Ccrazy\u201D electricity prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e044efbff954110b9b04c4c86d7587f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has made changes to the electricity market that have improved the level of competition, which was never seen when that member was in Government. Under his Government electricity prices increased by 72 percent in 9 years. The rate of increase now is much lower. The amount of switching and choice that customers have is very, very considerable. That is the benefit of having a far more competitive electricity market, and it is the benefit of a Government that is determined to give New Zealanders an opportunity to invest in good quality infrastructure assets in partnership with the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dfe89bf4fbe54d559a4bfc1df95bafad\u0022\u003EExchange Rate\u2014Reserve Bank Intervention\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2731c4d298e48628ac2f45fe947b058\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2731c4d298e48628ac2f45fe947b058\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What is his view of Governor Graeme Wheeler\u2019s recent statement to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that with regard to the Reserve Bank\u2019s recent activities \u201Cthere has been some intervention\u201D in the exchange rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002218e49175d8874d649512dabaab5fffdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218e49175d8874d649512dabaab5fffdd\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E My view is that the statement is probably correct if the governor said it. He would be following policy that has been in place since 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022561b041fa97a4449955cb6e03600c9c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Minister for Economic Development, Steven Joyce, that intervention is \u201Ca bit of a fool\u2019s paradise\u201D, and why is his ministerial colleague making comments about matters he patently knows nothing about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec0a84671c84c9b869d94491102496e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the second part of the question, Mr Joyce, from my experience, does know quite a bit about it, and perhaps may even know as much as that member about it\u2014possibly more. In respect of the first part of the question, as the governor has said himself, foreign currency intervention is unlikely to have a sustained impact on lowering the exchange rate, but it can reduce pressures in the short term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2e538202ed44efcb3c2553f8d5eeccd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does he recall the Prime Minister\u2019s statement on the exchange rate that \u201Cthe Government does not believe that it can influence that through intervention,\u201D; if so, and in light of the Reserve Bank\u2019s recent action and statement before the select committee, has he informed the Prime Minister that his belief was demonstrably wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0bc0f738cca4e249f10a5f6ed7528db\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here. The fact is that the Reserve Bank\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267497667cc7f4f6ba806ac2f56e3884d\u0022\u003EHon Steven Joyce\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a surprise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234a33863e1e4468b84419a43c6dd04c3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Not the first time\u2014yes. At least he is starting with a molehill this time, which is quite big, really. The point here is that the Reserve Bank has always had the power of intervening. It has published the conditions under which it can make interventions. The bank itself has said that it believes the impact of those interventions is limited and short term. The member, on the other hand, and the Labour Party advocate that the Government can pick an exchange rate and the Reserve Bank can just push the market to that exchange rate. That is simply wrong. That is the context of the Prime Minister\u2019s statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abce0aca51444519c759f4cb8cbb92f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders, the market, or anybody interested in this subject possibly have confidence in a Government that has such a dysfunctional relationship with the Reserve Bank in so far as the bank\u2019s actions, though they might upset \u201CBig Ears\u201D, directly contradict the line spouted by senior Government Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1ee33c6c794dc3aa056c01492173c6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The public do have some confidence in the Government, and the Government has a good relationship with the Governor of the Reserve Bank. However, he operates foreign currency intervention quite independently of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228afa861348d24a20bdfc919e77c23138\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that as the Minister of Finance he could have instructed the Reserve Bank to begin intervention in the foreign exchange markets earlier, thereby reducing the devastating impact the high New Zealand dollar has had, and is having, on our export sector, as the industries have evidenced in their public statements day after day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f358a71be684f83b2fe4b753d7f566e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The fact is, no, I have not issued any direction to it. The decisions have been made by the governor about his intervention, and I am not always aware of whether he is or is not intervening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d91ebcd04844d26baa2947043b22668\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not asking whether he has done anything, because I know he has not. What I want to know is this: does he admit that he could have or that he had the power to do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06f222abeaa4885834b8423f6966253\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Hon Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a850816a6dff4d4d9253211dbf268815\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to that is no, and in respect of the damaging impact on the export sector, the member should look at the household labour force survey figures today, which show an increase in full-time jobs across the economy despite the fact that we have had a high exchange rate. The Reserve Bank Governor would not himself claim that his actions are somehow substantially realigning the exchange rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002277b4c1da3cdf41a48f79a119d01d62dc\u0022\u003EPrimary Sector Development\u2014Lincoln Hub and Other Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c3b1153c2748c6a4f95add5a2f56e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c3b1153c2748c6a4f95add5a2f56e3\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Science and Innovation: How is the Government working to encourage innovation in the primary sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002222347704aa2443639790e50b997156aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222347704aa2443639790e50b997156aa\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Science and Innovation):\u003C/span\u003E Last week the Minister for Primary Industries, Nathan Guy, and I unveiled the concept plans for a world-class agricultural research and education facility to be located at Lincoln, just outside of Christchurch. The Lincoln Hub, which is a partnership between, and investment by, Lincoln University, Dairy New Zealand, and Crown research institutes AgResearch, Plant and Food Research, and Landcare Research, has the potential to transform New Zealand\u2019s farming productivity by providing a one-stop shop single site that will allow information and ideas to be shared much more easily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205fc234f0f7146bab2e61c7fa3aff8d2\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Lincoln Hub benefit students, exporters, and the wider economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fa9b40e58ef4c569b8113d8d7ab7be2\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: There is obvious concern from the Opposition members about our investment in science and innovation\u2014they are obviously thinking there is too much of it. The primary sector remains one of the powerhouses of the New Zealand economy, with a 1 percent increase in primary sector productivity equating to an extra $4 billion in export earnings. The Government has set an ambitious goal to double primary sector exports to $60 billion by 2025. The Lincoln Hub and the investment in it will help us achieve that goal by bringing together our public research institutions, private sector players, farmers, and producers to drive innovation and exports, to maximise the opportunities for student learners, to increase expertise in our research community, and to provide valuable links between businesses and the public sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0e79173ff8e4eb792f730ac29f8de63\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: What other Government initiatives are supporting growth and innovation in the primary sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd290202cbb540d6b3397225ca7ee44d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: In the words of Maurice Williamson, more good news. Through the Primary Growth Partnership, the Government and industry are investing $657 million in a range of primary sector research initiatives, including research into new shellfish industries, steep-land tree harvesting, high-value marbled beef for premium markets, and the reliability of supply and quality of medical-grade m\u0101nuka honey. We have created the National Science Challenges to encourage our scientists and researchers to tackle some of the biggest science-based issues New Zealand faces. A number of these directly affect the primary and rural sector. And, of course, we have increased funding for the Performance-based Research Fund to $300 million by 2016 to ensure that excellent research in the tertiary education sector is encouraged and rewarded, including, of course, in the primary sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205763559c63f4312af563b5b780d0265\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How much of the $161 million of taxpayers\u2019 money he has given to the meat industry is delivering benefits, given the refusal of the Minister for Primary Industries to answer questions on any deliverable outcomes for the Primary Growth Partnership and the fact that hundreds of farmers have no confidence in the current structure of the meat industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228426a250f475478f8a7999afe6531b5e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the world has known for a long time that there are plans to, if you like, alter the structure of the meat industry, and the Government is being very encouraging of the industry to look at its possibilities and its future, particularly around adding value and getting higher benefits for the exports that it produces. The Primary Growth Partnership is actually focused on a whole range of things that will encourage doing that, and it is actually about getting co-funded research between the private sector and the public sector that leads directly\u2014directly\u2014to benefits in innovation and productivity. The insurance of that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614cfa812f1549d8b16c4e276d4d4078\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: The co-funding model is not working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc6652c43c24dbaae65dd106df92268\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014oh, it is working\u2014is that the private sector industries are putting up half the funding themselves so that they can get that benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4f9b298d944bf8ae2eeaabe9928fcc\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table 18 questions put to the Minister for Primary Industries that the Minister has refused\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf320882d107401a98e92caa63a725cb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Are they questions for written answer, which are then published and available to everybody?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592d0404f8384c19b72c026fcd908a5e\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but the Minister has not answered them, and they are overdue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9ae95b22ed4707bed965d3f330d305\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister has not answered them, then that is a matter that you can certainly take up with me, and I will look\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f107dd4833cf47cfb5a357f726640635\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the questions, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef78a370af594f5a972c6ed59242def9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The easiest way to resolve it is to allow the member to seek leave. Leave is sought to table some questions that have not, apparently, been answered at this stage. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfd7aead538d497d96468e1db1d26465\u0022\u003ESolid Energy\u2014Financial Position and Sustainability\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00228d9b31403f524a04b352fd0fd9b3ae4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d9b31403f524a04b352fd0fd9b3ae4d\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement regarding Solid Energy that \u201CNo, we are not going to let it go into receivership\u201D; if so, is he committed to the ongoing sustainability of all State-owned enterprises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8807889ec1a46379a360aad941d0f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8807889ec1a46379a360aad941d0f2a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by the statement in the context in which it was made, which was the possibility that Solid Energy could have got itself into severe financial difficulty in a hurry. The Government will certainly be there to support Solid Energy if there is a viable business to support, and we hope that that is the case. However, we would expect that a viable Solid Energy will be a smaller business with a stronger focus on mining coal, and we would expect others to help participate in the restructuring of the current entity. As I said yesterday, if Solid Energy is not viable, the Government is not prepared to create a business that is not sustainable in order to subsidise it. The same approach applies to all State-owned enterprises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d6a06f86b445ba89fe610c9df024a9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: the Minister of Finance, who yesterday directly questioned the viability and sustainability of Solid Energy, or Mark Ford, the chair of Solid Energy, appointed by the Minister\u2019s Government, who said that the core assets of the company are viable and that Solid Energy has a \u201Cgood future\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022713e2a23bd8e478cb50199c939e80376\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the sustainability of Solid Energy was not just questioned yesterday, it was questioned some months ago, when the company got itself into pretty severe financial difficulty. We are going through a process at the moment, which the chairman is closer to than the shareholders, of working out whether and in what form Solid Energy would be an ongoing, sustainable business. Over the next couple of months we will be able to answer those questions fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a60023f09b2c423eb093621df8691a6c\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was who was correct\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b259b3bfce14bd29f3d7cbb02528c22\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I heard the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6490c5c989471199240e3ad8e1f839\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It was not addressed. I asked who was correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208b342ba003443efa01392bfdf13cfa5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was very definitely addressed. The member may not get an answer that satisfies him, but it was addressed to the point that they may well both be correct at this stage, and that further work is ongoing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c354b04aae43948c340b497ba5c413\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: On what date did he advise the Solid Energy chair, Mark Ford, that he was going to make yesterday\u2019s public statement questioning the viability of Solid Energy, and if he did not advise Mr Ford, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c94a8dd3b70455f8a3eac192aeb1489\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I did not advise Mr Ford, because I did not make a statement of the nature that the member is saying. If the member is not aware that the viability of Solid Energy has been in question for several months, then he is not doing his job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aba822ae800b4a8592dda603fad606e7\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he questioning the future viability of Solid Energy, and thereby undermining the efforts of the chair, Mark Ford, to give confidence to lenders, as the chair tries to forge an agreement to ensure the long-term future of the company, or is this all about the Minister\u2019s political expediency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022904d6ba25b694648a031bf74bc37a243\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: This is a serious issue, as the member will know. One hundred people in the company lost their jobs yesterday. You can be absolutely sure that there are a lot of questions in their minds, even if he is unaware that the company is in trouble. The Government is fully supporting the efforts of the chair and others to find out whether there is an ongoing, sustainable business in Solid Energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc411cfbc48548a9b7a0a237b1db41b0\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give an assurance that the $1.9 billion of coal reserves in land controlled by Solid Energy will remain in New Zealand ownership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213d3ac5a07c3438087f46f7baf27541e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was\u2014[Interruption] Order! I am going to ask the member to repeat his supplementary question to the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7bf0b0d3da483a89f0f12d84f6d3f4\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give an assurance that the $1.9 billion of coal reserves controlled by Solid Energy will remain in New Zealand ownership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e436eeb232264348af1984281a9f85a4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That sort of issue will no doubt be tied up with the future of the company, and I do not intend to prejudge or guarantee any outcome from the process that we are currently going through. Our focus is to see whether there is a viable business there, and, if so, to work with other parties to restructure the current version of Solid Energy into a sustainable business. I am not going to speculate on the results of that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276e319a396d6440ca7b8d776a8ef1ade\u0022\u003EBudget 2013\u2014Rheumatic Fever Prevention\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00220507dc9fcde541ebb6ee7b2ec40b8d98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220507dc9fcde541ebb6ee7b2ec40b8d98\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What investment will the Government make in rheumatic fever prevention as part of Budget 2013?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34bf60906d04f1481baad881791f1ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34bf60906d04f1481baad881791f1ec\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s campaign to reduce rheumatic fever among children will receive a budget boost of $21.6 million over 4 years as part of Budget 2013. This new money almost doubles the already substantial $24 million investment we have made to combat rheumatic fever and will allow local communities and health providers to work together to make a real difference to these children\u2019s lives. The Government has a target to reduce the incidence of rheumatic fever by two-thirds, to 1.4 cases per 100,000, by June 2017. This money will ensure that we remain on track to achieving this. I certainly would like to acknowledge the very strong and continuing support of my Associate Minister of Health the Hon Tariana Turia for this programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebdc922346a14b6ebaf885c76355fee2\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: What will the Budget funding for rheumatic fever prevention include?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff526c6827c40d0978dfa1b495dfd21\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: More than $11 million over 4 years is going to be invested in a nurse-led sore throat drop-in clinic, which will provide improved access to families whose children do not attend school or during school holidays, and access to free sore throat swabbing services. Nearly $5 million over 4 years will be invested in community awareness and home visiting support to ensure vulnerable families know and understand what they can do to help better protect their children. The Government is also going to invest almost $4 million over 4 years in supporting the Auckland-wide healthy homes referral and advice services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022922a3d25bc3b4b048c7030331a06ad22\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that the rates of rheumatic fever have increased in Northland over the last 5 years\u2014the mean annual number between 2000 and 2006 was 9.2 cases per 100,000 people, and it has now jumped to 13.6 cases\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db22759dc5f44d3ea20198a12be2cb83\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb5627f427fd4db28b586ac1314f1059\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: \u201413.6 cases\u2014and that the issues that need to be addressed are poverty, overcrowding, and better access to primary health care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221801254800924580bc3ead1cdc316ee9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have those specific Northland numbers with me, but I do have the numbers under the previous\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08954dd06c943ae8efca4b8edcf1ea4\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a straight question, not about any other Government, but whether he can confirm they have increased. He said he does not have the numbers. That is the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b21b38edbf404cad9fcb937755fa18\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is happy with that answer, then we will move\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dd04188619048e2a85e53cf4ff0f66d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cd72280cfe44807bcadf24a18567ada\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is happy with that, the question has been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fcdd49d03ba4d93b97c49a48ae2a0da\u0022\u003EChild Poverty\u2014Measurement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00226f83ee5c6a324fecb92de00b4a270b5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f83ee5c6a324fecb92de00b4a270b5a\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: Does she stand by her recent statement that \u201Cthere are children who are living in poverty and are doing it hard in this country\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecae1ec172bb45c784c460b2154b1d5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecae1ec172bb45c784c460b2154b1d5c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Social Development: Yes, she does stand by her statement. She also stands by her statements today where she welcomed the household labour force survey, which shows more New Zealanders are in work. It is very good to also see the continuing growth in the New Zealand economy, which will provide more opportunities for more New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa284a9c08e4d0ba2c3a892e67ab37e\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Why is her Government content to measure and set a target for reducing rheumatic fever but it refuses to measure and set targets for poverty, a key determinant of this disease, or is she happy to stick with her position on this issue that \u201CThere is not a Government measurement for poverty, ha, ha, ha, ha!\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f03d57c202345f4b6f79900c16beaac\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I would certainly have to check the quote that that member wants to attribute to the Hon Paula Bennett, but I can certainly say that the Minister has always made it clear that she does not believe there is one measurement of poverty in New Zealand. What the member should also know is that the Minister is very strongly supportive of the rheumatic fever programme, because under that member opposite\u2019s Government the rheumatic fever rates increased relentlessly, particularly during the term of the Minister Annette King.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a343341fb6480ba07821c7adc9cf6d\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How many measures of poverty are there, and is the Government willing to pick at least one, or even five, of those measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022586eea9a842a415eb83ba72e65f13ae1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is determined to take a far more serious approach to dealing with poverty than participating in some argument about what the rate of poverty measurement is, etc. We do not think we should be spending an inordinate amount of time debating that issue. We would rather put our focus on to actually dealing with the issues, and this Government\u2019s focus has been on providing opportunity through things like education and jobs and on ensuring that we get the best out of the many hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on social services delivery in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1964e6af4b46048075532fa910589b\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked the Minister how many measures of poverty there were and whether he was willing to work with one or a range of those measures. I did not get that response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b369c3d595458da9c870f45ba5266e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please repeat the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6a17f7dfc8d460391937439c8a6fc9c\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How many measures of poverty are there, and is the Government willing to pick one, or up to five, of those measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796a351418af45f087a509c73217248e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I would repeat what I said earlier on. The Government is not going to get into this argument of how many measures there are or on what there is and what there is not. Our focus is not on spending a whole lot of time arguing about how we are going to measure it. Surely, the focus must be on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e842f86719c4f98a01f7cfe61f083e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If he is refusing to answer the question about the measurement of poverty, then he should sit down\u2014that is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c18754956434d1282ebe19cc15946d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member who asked the question asked for it to be repeated. It has certainly been adequately addressed this time. Are there further supplementary questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231efef172c314485b60aed0bc709eef0\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What is the argument against measuring child poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f0a135a678478f85d50409001d89c1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I think the argument against what that member is arguing in terms of the measurement of poverty is which measure one might want to choose, and how much focus you put on a single measurement. I would rather the focus was put on dealing with the issues, instead of on some argument about what measure is going to be used. This Government is focusing on the Better Public Services targets that our Prime Minister has set, which we think will make a real improvement to the situation of many of New Zealand\u2019s children who do live in poverty and who do live in hardship, and that is our determination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b232e4e0b4144d8dbd7c57933d99e628\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I still did not feel it was an adequate answer. The question was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226563be35a80344d1965aab9516c4d1f4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That question was very adequately addressed on that occasion. Has the member got a further supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d363b8d9ef4d2cba22c9076708746c\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45e3fb67ef64ec5ac6e74a5808436cb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Then I suggest you use it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f43ae34407de4b53af48b52efbf5a17c\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Do the Better Public Services targets require measurement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a7b4bd392da462793418578023cb538\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02d313ad12344a1ba0377c91900a984\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister\u2019s belief is that the argument against measuring child poverty is that there are too many measurements, will the Minister accept the Children\u2019s Commissioner\u2019s recommendation that the Government measure against five measures of child poverty; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202be609f4af4a3b89ccacdbdc8c51e2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is considering a number of the recommendations made by the authority that the member has just referred to. We think this is a very important issue. We put a lot of time and effort into dealing with poverty and we consider it far more of a priority than the members opposite, who have given their spokesman the opportunity to ask questions in this House on only three occasions this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9427bcc42424efc941db9c4313ed3c5\u0022\u003EPower Prices\u2014Effect on Vulnerable Households\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8676c62228d40de9222138abc82d5bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8676c62228d40de9222138abc82d5bc\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his answer \u201Cno, they\u2019re not\u201D when he was asked whether New Zealanders are paying too much for electricity, in light of the 5.2 percent increase in power prices in the past year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad357b4438464e7b8867dc1370ecefd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad357b4438464e7b8867dc1370ecefd0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by my statement in the context in which it was made, which was in response to the following question: are New Zealanders paying too much for power, as Grant Robertson suggests? Of course, Grant Robertson\u2019s suggestions were the usual combination of exaggeration and illogical statement, and that is why I said \u201CNo, they\u2019re not.\u201D I went on to say that of course New Zealanders would prefer to pay lower power prices, but around the world the experience is that the best way to set power prices in the long run is to have a competitive market, and all countries that we know of have been moving from Government-run monopolies towards more competitive markets. The Labour-Greens policy is the only political policy we have seen heading in the opposite direction. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022746df8bbdc93414197a559a7c284a38d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We will just wait until the Labour benches are quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eefb4373bd74ecab491d52daaa38471\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister continuing to defend excessive prices for power for families and excessive profits for power companies, when he knows that there is a direct link between cold and crowded homes and rheumatic fever in children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250064782566548d7bda9fc13b75cd269\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not defending excessive power prices. It is\u2014[Interruption] Well, the power prices will be much higher under Labour-Greens policy because their climate change policies will cost the average household $500 per year. What we are arguing for is that in the long run competitive markets are the best way for consumers to get the lowest power prices. In fact, you could almost guarantee that the Labour-Greens policy will lead to higher power prices; it is just a matter of when.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113fd14a30334219aed56b5856d33fd8\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister believe\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8911790e274ee69a77650e6bca48e3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! Right, now we will have the supplementary question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4e6541905e4776a68eb715083cd0f6\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister believe that it is acceptable for a quarter of a million New Zealand children to live in households who pay too much for their power, or, worse, live in cold homes and get sick because their families cannot afford to pay the big power bills that they face?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e8f29a443b4479b3360f02583c0cd2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it is not acceptable for people to be living in poor conditions that make children ill. That is why the Government has spent hundreds of millions of dollars insulating those homes\u2014precisely to get the health benefits. The cost of living increase in those homes is not 5 percent, as the member says; it is actually 1 percent for the last 12 months\u2014in fact, a bit less than 1 percent, which is among the lower increases in the annual cost of living that we can recall. But if that member was that worried about it, why did she support the previous Government, which pushed up power prices by 8 percent per year for 9 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7b989b085a4a469bb542100e1dcd71\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: How many cold, unhealthy homes would have been insulated for the estimated $100 million that his Government has wasted on selling Mighty River Power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223163b0de5ff94614b6cb3f31ae575653\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot give the member the details on that, but I would ask her this: how many homes could have been insulated for the $400,000 she has wasted on a dodgy referendum? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281834560e395460b8e44e1fd672b0b8d\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd1fec24499a42b7958ef9c8f0d184b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We will just wait for Annette King. [Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae27a6103a442dcb018fca1092ccc40\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that it is an acceptable trade-off to allow children to live in cold, crowded homes and become ill because their families cannot afford the power bills, while companies like Contact Energy make billions of dollars in excess profits because he will not do anything about the price gouging that New Zealand families suffer every month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c329f597d9e843a89d0251702bb8307a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: If you were going to look at the companies as a measure of what has happened to power prices and profits from them, the Contact Energy share price, I am advised, is lower today than it was 5 years ago, as is the TrustPower share price. If those companies were making super-profits, then they would have super-sized share prices, and, in fact, they do not. It does not matter how much the Greens say power prices are at some ridiculous or excessive level, it is the case that they are rising much more slowly than when she was supporting a Government that pushed up power prices for the poorest households in New Zealand by 8 percent per year and burdened them with 5 and 6 percent increases in the cost of living rather than 1 percent. So she should stop being as moralistic as she is wanting to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ae0df58c36f44d6bcf00bbd09bf41db\u0022\u003EMothers\u2014Government Support and Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022471a8ba5b9974a50b12d88b6ef0a9ae0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022471a8ba5b9974a50b12d88b6ef0a9ae0\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs: Does she have any positive announcements to make for New Zealand mothers, as families prepare to celebrate Mothers\u2019 Day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u00221774993d0f904a52a8b1b3fc71432440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221774993d0f904a52a8b1b3fc71432440\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW (Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, there are a number of positive announcements. Mothers will celebrate an additional $21.3 million over 4 years to fight rheumatic fever amongst their children, and an additional $70 million extra for aged care and dementia, which will help older mothers and those mothers caring for their parents. They will also be celebrating the March 2013 household labour force survey showing an increase in female employment of 0.9 percentage points over the last year, and a drop in the unemployment rate of 0.2 percentage points in the last year\u2014the first quarter since December 2011. I would like to take this opportunity to wish all of the mothers present in this House a joy-filled day on Sunday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c30d17ad31c74d57b3e1bd0aefab07a9\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the Minister, but has she seen the report from Save the Children on the state of the world\u2019s mothers that shows New Zealand in 17th place in 2013, plummeting from fourth place in its 2012 report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022219ac2d3855a486abb85844f21115821\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen reports about that report and I am aware that the chair of our very own Perinatal and Maternal Mortality Review Committee has disputed the figures in that report and says that for the majority of women we have a very safe and effective system. In fact, the actual figures for New Zealand are very different from the figures in that report. In our first Budget we committed more than $103 million over 4 years to improve maternity services. In 2011 this Government committed in this area an extra $54 million, and in 2012 an extra $20.5 million. No one could say that this Government is not doing more for mothers and babies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287870de41d1f4060a056fc73de029eba\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how does she then explain Australia being\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1fd26c25443481fbe6d025a2f102e5e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This time the noise is definitely coming from the far right-hand corner of the Chamber. Sue Moroney\u2014[Interruption] Order! Now it is coming from the front bench of the Labour Party. Can we please have\u2014[Interruption] Can we please have consideration for the member asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6f09855d11a44ddae8106acf3b8f8e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. When a Speaker gives a ruling that seems to be unfair to some person, I think it is beholden on a member of Parliament to raise the issue as to whether it was fair. If you look at the far corner of the House, that is Mr Gilmore, and he was not making a noise at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200926a009071421b8c350e532cb7fbb3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I was not referring to him. That is not a valid point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17f4549a6ab4dcaa9ec9c842f2c8795\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Does she attribute the staggering decline of 13 places in New Zealand\u2019s ranking as a country for mothers to the fact that the 2012 report relied on data from 2007 onwards, when Labour was in Government, whereas the 2013 report used data gathered since 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e327a4d388484b3d8f1a9e6f1d02573f\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: I can answer the member that what I am relying on to keep this report in perspective is the comments from the chairwoman of the Perinatal and Maternal Mortality Review Committee, who says that its own report shows about one in 8,000 women dying in pregnancy or childbirth, which varies greatly from the one in 3,300 in that report. The additional information that the chairperson, Cindy Farquar, was able to give was that we have a comprehensive data collection system, unlike Australia, which may account for why it is rated better in the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022611393ba38264c60b3c60474d48452b3\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Prime Minister when he said he thought paid parental leave would increase one day; if so, does she think that that \u201Cone day\u201D will be while she is the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs, or will families need to elect a Labour Government to extend paid parental leave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d758a48c1c5f4f1bb3b4de50448b8984\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: I am in agreement with what the Prime Minister said. He has said it publicly several times. The Government still plans to veto the bill to extend paid parental leave. As he has said, we are not opposed to paid parental leave. We already have it in New Zealand and more would be better. What we are saying is that an increase now in paid parental leave will mean that we have to either forgo our goal of getting back to surplus or stop spending money on something else. We are not ruling out an extension at some stage when the books are back in surplus. We are just saying that it is not the right time to do it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422d47e93789453e987b4033c30b7ad7\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: When will the right time be, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223508fef78ab040b1979a7bd582ae1e2b\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: We all look forward to the day that we are back in surplus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e28c5b1a625404c8bd46cd74ff66b9b\u0022\u003ESchools, Digital Learning\u2014School Network Upgrade Project and Other Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00225d87bea0c9af419d869fa964bae292b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d87bea0c9af419d869fa964bae292b7\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: What recent announcements has the Government made regarding improving school IT networks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00226771bf412e71465da6c956f870dd681f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226771bf412e71465da6c956f870dd681f\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Last week I announced that an additional 80 schools have been invited to upgrade their IT network through the School Network Upgrade Project. This means that under a National-led Government, over 1,400 schools are now involved with the School Network Upgrade Project. That translates to over 60 percent of all eligible State and State-integrated schools in New Zealand. Our Government is focused on providing the best information and communications technology infrastructure and modern learning environments to enable better learning resources and more opportunities for young New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7972b17d7ac4b78ab40ffd4f667e27e\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What other recent announcements has the Government made regarding digital literacy and 21st century learning environments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e44c21ddb3484812b7224a07d294b29c\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: Recently I announced that the Government will be setting up a 21st century learning reference group. This will help us provide greater learning opportunities. Alongside this, we have committed to producing a digital education strategy. Recently we released the results of the School ICT Infrastructure Survey. This is the first School ICT Infrastructure Survey to be conducted since 2002. This has given us a better understanding of schools that are embracing digital learning and those schools that need greater support. In addition, I am working with the Ministry of Education to ensure even more schools can upgrade their IT networks more quickly. By doing this, young New Zealanders will have a brighter and more connected future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224004ad9c788e42239c8028445f159207\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the contract for the Network for Learning\u2014an information and communications technology project announced in last year\u2019s Budget\u2014not awarded by the end of last year as expected, and what delay will this mean for the Network for Learning\u2019s target to be progressively available to kura and schools from the middle of this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b10ffb9863ca4ee287f218b855d8fd8d\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: The Network for Learning company was formed in July 2012. It is currently working on its business plan and offerings. There was not a date given at that time, in terms of when it would sign the contract in terms of its preferred supplier. I am currently doing some due diligence on that. I have announced publicly that within the next 6 weeks there will be further announcements on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002261887e9650de4bcea05fbf69e128fabf\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224fd8a68d7e9a4ac2ba39985d21ecfda7\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000609\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u002267c37b12e2f54d7c9bb25ecc585b5562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267c37b12e2f54d7c9bb25ecc585b5562\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E There was a long and winding road of a discourse from the previous speaker on the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, Andrew Little, who was regaling us with stories of State Highway 3 in Taranaki, an area commonly known as \u201CTaradise\u201D by those of us born there or those who may have discovered the joys and charms of the area and choose to live there now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to the constant improvement of our arteries of commerce\u2014our roads and highways\u2014and the extensive work on State Highway 3, just north of New Plymouth, the Bell Block Bypass, is testament to that. The Mount Messenger road, which used to strike fear into my aged grandmother when she remembered later on in life incidents of travelling over it when she was a young girl, is now being tamed, curved, and smoothed into docility, despite the treacherous substrate of greywacke. Work on the northern outlet has gone on and is due to be completed next summer, along with the stretch between Vickers Road and Elliot Street. Work that was ignored by the Labour Government in the times of unparalleled surplus has been undertaken by this Government in stages, despite the global financial crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThis Government believes that the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill will facilitate our aims of simplifying and modernising New Zealand\u2019s transport system nationwide so that it is efficient and cost-effective and able to better serve the needs of growing our economy. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae7ffd2411e24bb88c35f488719cfc7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae7ffd2411e24bb88c35f488719cfc7b\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Wow\u2014limited applause for the member, Dr Cam Calder, who just took his seat. In the regulatory impact statement for this bill, the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, one of the first bullet points, where they say what the main objectives of this bill are, emphasises value for money within each activity class. That is very interesting, given that the Kapiti Expressway has a benefit-cost ratio of just 0.2 percent and that it is one of the projects that the Government is crowing about\u2014the roads of national significance. A leaked report last year by the engineering consultants Beca Group showed that the $515 million investment would yield a return of just $118 million over 30 years, or, as I said, a cost-benefit ratio of just 0.2 percent. So I wonder, in terms of the Government\u2019s objective of emphasising value for money within each activity class, in this bill, whether the Kapiti Expressway meets that objective. Because it would seem to me, on the face of it, that when you are spending $515 million on something and you get a cost-benefit ratio of $118 million over 30 years, that is a pretty awful investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the people in the communities of Raumati South, Raumati Beach, and the Kapiti Coast, because this bill proves the fear that they have held since December 2009 that this Government is blinded by its roads of national significance agenda, pushing through massive roading projects against economic argument, against environmental argument, and, most of all, what is most concerning, against the communities and the communities\u2019 transport needs. This bill shows that this Government is hell-bent\u2014come hell or high water\u2014on huge roads of national significance going through and ruining people\u2019s lives, people\u2019s communities, and they make no economic sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis bill will allow the Government to do more borrowing for this roads of national significance scheme. We were already told that the cost-benefit ratio of these roads simply does not stack up\u2014simply does not stack up. I just want to, again, repeat the leaked report from Beca Group last year that a $515 million investment would yield a return of just $118 million over 30 years. The economic case does not stack up with the Kapiti Expressway and the environmental case does not stack up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI have here with me, just in front of me, the signatures of 4,072 people, mostly from the Kapiti Coast, who are opposed to the Kapiti Expressway\u2014opposed to the Kapiti Expressway. Let me go through some of the comments that have come through here. I have picked just a random page, but I am sure it will be awful for the Government: \u201CTo Minister Steven Joyce\u201D\u2014it is quite simple\u2014\u201CStop the proposed motorway going through the Kapiti Coast.\u201D Another one is from Joe Donovan: \u201CI agree with this petition and hope that the Government will think carefully to do what\u2019s best for this thriving community.\u201D\u2014I agree with this petition and hope the Government will think carefully to do what\u2019s best for this thriving community. But, as we know, this Government has not done so; it has pushed on with the Kapiti Expressway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI find it very interesting, given some of the messages that were sent to the people of the Kapiti Coast by the Government in terms of what the roading solution was going to be for the Kapiti Coast. In December 2009 Steven Joyce dropped the bombshell on the people of Raumati South and Raumati Beach that the expressway was coming, but let us look at what Nathan Guy said in February of that year: \u201CI am working hard with Mayor Jenny Rowan to get this project started this year, as the funding has already been allocated. The transport Minister\u201D\u2014sorry, he says here \u201CSteve Joyce\u201D; they must be friends\u2014\u201Cwill be briefed on this project when he visits the \u014Ctaki electorate next month to understand how important it is.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs we all know, Nathan Guy got rolled. The last and I think the most important quote here from his press release says: \u201CI see the Western Link Road, rail electrification to Waikanae, and extending the safety barrier from MacKays Crossing to Paek\u0101k\u0101riki as a really important package for our region.\u201D Well, in February 2009 Mr Guy thought that, but in December 2009 this Government changed its tune and broke its promise to the people of K\u0101piti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce90079aa2a545828ffea705f3f5b277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce90079aa2a545828ffea705f3f5b277\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak on the second reading of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. I have to say that sitting through the select committee process on this bill was quite discouraging. Similarly to the Government\u2019s asset sales legislation, its gutting of the Resource Management Act, and its gutting of the Local Government Act, it was another example of a charade of democratic process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee heard a large number of really excellent submissions, and I have a huge stack of them right here. They were well informed. They were made by people who work on the ground on transport issues\u2014people in regional councils and local councils. We heard submissions from very concerned citizens who are wondering how New Zealand is going to respond to climate change with its transport spend; how New Zealand is going to reduce the burden of chronic disease on the health system, which is actually increasing because of our transport system; and how New Zealand is going to deliver a transport system that works for everyone, including the elderly, the very young, those on low incomes, and those with disabilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EDespite some very strong consistent themes in the submissions, there were very few changes made to the first draft of the bill. I regret to say that some of the very young and earnest submitters\u2014ordinary citizens who care enough about New Zealand to participate in the supposedly democratic process we have for improving legislation\u2014were treated very poorly by some of the Government members on the committee. As with so much else, the Government did not listen to stakeholders. It voted on every part of the bill with its one-seat majority on the select committee\u2014it was a 5:4 split on every part of the bill. Like so many other controversial things this Government is doing, it has used its very narrow majority to force changes that do not reflect the views or concerns of most New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI will talk in detail about the parts of this bill that are the most problematic during the Committee stage of the bill today. There are quite a few of those parts, and I will just touch on a few right now. In my minority report I highlighted my concerns with the lack of response to the submissions about changing the purpose of the Act; changing the make-up of regional transport committees; borrowing to pay for projects in the national land transport programme; going to public-private partnerships, which are essentially a more expensive way of borrowing for some very low-value highway projects like Transmission Gully; and removing the regional fuel tax, which would have allowed a region like Auckland, and perhaps other regions, to raise revenue that it desperately needs for its transport priorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ERight now I would like to speak to my concerns about the new Public Transport Operating Model that the Government has spent so much time on with existing bus operators. The purpose of the Public Transport Operating Model is supposedly to improve the competitiveness of public transport operators when in fact we see it does the exact opposite. Much of the detail is not in this legislation. It will be set by Order in Council by the Minister. But what I have learnt through talking to specialists in the area is that the new Public Transport Operating Model entrenches the existing monopolies of existing bus companies. What it does is protect existing bus companies from having to compete in the provision of bus services, and this may be true for other providers as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EEssentially, what is going to happen if there is not proper competition in the provision of public transport services? For example, we are not even going to have tenders; we are going to have negotiated contracts on competitive routes like the Northern Express. At the moment average tenders are only 1.1, so obviously there is no competition in most regions. There is not gross cost contracting in Wellington and Auckland, which has led to bus operating costs being 40 percent higher in those two cities than in Christchurch, where there was gross cost contracting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Government has not listened to economists or public transport specialists. It has listened to the bus companies, which, naturally, want to maximise their profits by avoiding competition. So what we have seen is a model tailored to their needs and to their desire to maximise profit. It is going to increase public transport fares for users. It increases the public transport subsidy that must be paid by regional councils and the New Zealand Transport Agency. Ultimately, it is not good for New Zealand\u2019s economy. It is good for the bus operators\u2014the private monopolies that National protects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022967a823416634b36b7b4ffdc4fa7caf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022967a823416634b36b7b4ffdc4fa7caf2\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take this call. Once again, we see inconsistencies in thinking. We have heard from the member who just sat down, Julie Anne Genter, that we want more competition in the bus market, but then, of course, hers is a party that has been arguing against competition when it comes to the electricity market. It is quite confusing. We also had an idea of democracy that really comes down to it being democratic only if the Green Party agrees with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe Land Transport Management Amendment Bill is a good bill. It is ultimately about movement. As sort of an homage, if you like, to that aspect of movement, I would like to move that this bill progress to the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments recommended by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225495bac2794a49dd8370d310a4455f37\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227905785ea120466cac6963a361af42da\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a61bb257c3ef4464ac282f36d7e8c11e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022936b1a361d7346d09f719193f0df938d\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Land Transport Management Act 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00229dea8c0839de45aa8db6508cdc2be432\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dea8c0839de45aa8db6508cdc2be432\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E In this call I would like to specifically address Supplementary Order Paper 235 in my name. It is clear that the divisions across the Chamber on this bill, the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, are pretty strong. The Government has just the narrowest of majorities on this bill and the Opposition parties\u2014and, in fact, even the Government\u2019s support party the M\u0101ori Party\u2014are opposed to this bill. I imagine that a lot of the debate this afternoon will be of a fairly political nature, but I do ask members to consider this Supplementary Order Paper closely because this is a constructive change to the legislation that has been asked for by regional councils that will need to operate under this legislation. It refers to transitional arrangements, moving from the current parameters under the Land Transport Management Act as it currently stands through to the new Public Transport Operating Model that is contained in this amendment bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EUnder the new provisions the regional councils will need to have in place a new regional public transport plan before they can contract any new public transport services. However, those plans are not due to come into place until 1 July 2015. That is the latest that the legislation allows for them to come into place. Having spoken to the regional councils, that is the appropriate time. There is a considerable amount of work required to get those regional public transport plans written up and in place. They will not be in place before then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EHowever, for at least seven of our regional councils their current contracts with public transport providers are going to come to an end after the amendment bill is passed but before the regional public transport plans are in place. That means they have some difficulty in determining under what parameters they are contracting those new services. In fact, in discussions with the New Zealand Transport Agency and the Government the regional councils have been advised that the best way forward for them is simply to roll over the current contracts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIn the first reading debate Julie Anne Genter talked about how the Public Transport Operating Model supports the current operators. It is monopolistic in its tendencies. This transition period is even worse for that because essentially the operators will be able to dictate terms to the regional councils about how those contracts are rolled over. There will be no competition at all if this transitional period is not agreed to, and that means that ratepayers are going to be paying far too much for their public transport. It means that the operators will have the regional councils over a barrel. I do not think that is the situation that anybody seriously wants to have happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIn the spirit of constructive bipartisan efforts to try to make what is a bad bill as good as possible, I have tabled this amendment to bring exactly that type of transitional period into place, whereby the regional councils would be able to contract new services under the current arrangements provided for under the current Act up until the new regional transport plans are brought into place, and then those contracts can run through only until 30 June 2017, so by 30 June 2017 everybody will be operating under the new Public Transport Operating Model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think that reflects the consensus that the operators certainly believe exists out there. The regional councils want to work with the Government. They do not want to be kind of in opposition to the Government. They do not want to be seen to be working against central government; they want to work alongside it. But the only way for regional councils to effectively work alongside central government is for this amendment, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 235, to be passed. So I do ask that members give it serious consideration, particularly Government members. I know there has been a lot of conversation between the regional councils and the New Zealand Transport Agency, but this is an opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c322a7d7a76f4e9e9b84fee637d9a431\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c322a7d7a76f4e9e9b84fee637d9a431\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will also speak to Supplementary Order Paper 235, brought to the Committee by Iain Lees-Galloway. I have to commend Mr Lees-Galloway for bringing this Supplementary Order Paper to the Committee. I do hope that the Government will be listening with an open mind, because I know that the Government says that one of its priorities is to get good value from the amount of money that taxpayers are putting into public transport, and also to get good value for money for those public transport passengers who are paying fares. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAs Mr Lees-Galloway quite rightly explained, the impact of the transitional measures in this bill, the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, at the moment will be that many regional councils will have to roll over existing contracts for a period of several years. This could end up costing them millions of dollars. The only people who benefit from the transitional measures are the existing bus operators. They will essentially be in an extremely strong position where they will be able to negotiate what is good for them, at the expense of ratepayers and at the expense of taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is very perplexing to me that the New Zealand Transport Agency has not listened to the concerns raised by regional councils on this issue, as the New Zealand Transport Agency is using some of its own money to pay for public transport services. What we saw earlier this year was that the Otago Regional Council went ahead to tender for contracts for some of its bus services. It was able to negotiate savings in the order of millions of dollars. Then the New Zealand Transport Agency told the Otago Regional Council that it would not be providing the council with a subsidy for its public transport services, which normally it has as of right, because it did not follow the model that the agency had decided to go with. That would have meant rolling over contracts for the Otago Regional Council until 2016 rather than going to competitive tender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIf this Government actually believes in competition and in getting good value for money, then I think it must support these absolutely reasonable changes put forward in Supplementary Order Paper 235, because they will enable regional councils to tender for contracts in the interim period until they have gone ahead and established their new public transport plans and are able to contract under those in several years\u2019 time. At stake is millions of taxpayers\u2019 and ratepayers\u2019 dollars. It is really an opportunity, I think, for the Government to show its commitment to value for money and to demonstrate that it is not actually going to simply listen to the demands of profitable bus operators that do not want to have to compete. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESpeaking to other parts of Part 1, I would like to raise the issue of the purpose of the Land Transport Management Act. A number of submitters on the bill understood the Government\u2019s interest in simplifying the existing purpose, but it is important to realise that, actually, the land transport system has a wide variety of effects on New Zealand\u2019s well-being. The land transport system cannot be considered alone when, in fact, the land transport system\u2014the roads that we put in place, the public transport that we have in place, the rail network, all of that\u2014contributes to a number of other areas that the Government is directly responsible for. For example, in the area of public health there has been an enormous amount of research demonstrating that the transport choices that people have available to them impact directly on their health. This is a ticking time bomb for the New Zealand public health system, because in neighbourhoods where children are unable to walk and cycle safely to school and they have to be driven, they are much more likely to be overweight and to not get enough activity. Therefore, in the future they are much more likely to suffer from chronic diseases, and we all know that chronic diseases like diabetes and heart disease are on the increase in New Zealand. They are on the increase in most rich countries, and a certain portion of that increase is directly due to the lack of activity that happens when you have a transport system that is entirely or overwhelmingly reliant on private vehicles\u2014there are decreasing levels of physical activity. I encourage the Government to listen carefully to the recommendations of doctors, nurses, and other public health professionals associations that have been speaking out on this issue and saying that, actually, we do need to take into account the health impacts of our transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other co-benefits that need to be taken into account when we are deciding what transport projects we invest in and prioritise. One of these is carbon emissions. Our transport sector is the single biggest contributor to our carbon emissions. It has been the fastest-growing area of carbon emissions, and the overwhelming majority of our imports of oil goes on transport. This has a wide variety of impacts, such as the need we have to reduce our carbon emissions in the future\u2014that is undeniable. We will have to do that. We need to take that into account when we are planning transport projects that are going to last 30, 40, 50, or 100 years into the future. How are they going to enable New Zealand to reduce its carbon emissions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut there is an added economic benefit to reducing carbon emissions, and that is that we reduce our oil imports. New Zealand\u2019s oil bill last year was $8 billion. For the past decade we have not increased much, if at all, the amount of oil that we have been importing. We are using the same amount of oil that we did in the early part of the last decade, but we are spending more than twice as much on it. Our oil imports have gone from under $4 billion to $8 billion last year. All of that contributes to our current account deficit. It is not good for the New Zealand economy to be so reliant on imported oil. If the value of the New Zealand dollar was more realistic than it is at the moment\u2014it is hovering towards 0.9 on the US dollar\u2014petrol prices would be through the roof, and we would have significant harm to our economy because households and businesses simply would not be able to get where they need to go without spending a ton of money on petrol. We are already spending a lot of money on petrol\u2014$8 billion. We would be spending even more if the New Zealand dollar was at a more realistic exchange rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo changing the purpose of the Act to consider only a few narrow transport criteria rather than the broader impacts that transport has on our public health system, on New Zealanders\u2019 well-being, and on our economy is very short-sighted. Unfortunately, it is quite a typical characteristic of this Government to not understand the interrelationships between the different things that we are doing. It may make decisions now that seem to make sense from a transport point of view, but, actually, they do not, because the vast majority of the transport budget is being spent on a few big motorway projects that do not even come out good on the Government\u2019s own narrow assessment of transport benefits. Those projects have very low benefit-cost ratios, even when you do not consider the wider impacts. So maybe it is not a problem of the Government not understanding the interrelationships but one of simply not caring about what the economic impacts of our transport spend are going to be, and instead wanting to build a few big, shiny new projects because it thinks they will make it look good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI was really struck by the submitters who came to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, who all seemed to sing from the same song sheet. Submission after submission after submission said that it is really important to consider the wider impacts of transport in the purpose of the Land Transport Management Act. Amending the purpose of the Land Transport Management Act to reduce it to get rid of words that are really important, like those about affordability and about the impact on public health and environmental sustainability and safety, is going to very much narrow the considerations that should be and can be taken into consideration when we are prioritising our transport budget for different projects. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00224252a32bbefb4afba33a7bbf32e9fd73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224252a32bbefb4afba33a7bbf32e9fd73\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Taloha ni, Mr Chairperson. Thank you very much for the chance to speak at this Committee stage. Iain Lees-Galloway and Julie Anne Genter started their contributions by speaking to Supplementary Order Paper 235, I believe, but I would like to start by addressing Supplementary Order Paper 234, which is still in the name of my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway. It talks about the amendments that are being made in the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill around the purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo I am starting at the start\u2014a good place to start. At the moment, the bill, as reported back from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, has the purpose set out as: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to contribute to an effective, efficient, and safe land transport system in the public interest.\u201D We are not happy with that on this side of the Chamber, obviously, so that is why Iain Lees-Galloway has put forward this amendment in Supplementary Order Paper 234, where the purpose should read\u2014and we would hope that the Committee would adopt this\u2014\u201CThe purpose of this Act is to contribute to the aim of achieving an affordable, integrated, safe, responsive, and sustainable land transport system.\u201D It is a very good amendment and we do hope that during this debate\u2014and perhaps a Minister in the chair could comment on whether the Committee could pick this up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI want to look at each one of these aspects that Iain Lees-Galloway has put in his Supplementary Order Paper on changing the purpose to affordability, being integrated, being safe, being responsive, and being sustainable, and I want to put that into the context of the Kapiti Expressway, which the Government is forcing upon the people of the Kapiti Coast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ELet us start with the first one, and that is affordability. As I said earlier in the previous stage of this bill, the Government is spending $515 million on this Kapiti Expressway, and a leaked report from Beca Group last year revealed that the benefit-cost ratio for this investment was $118 million over 30 years. The rough maths in my department says that that is a benefit-cost ratio of somewhere around 0.2:1. So, in terms of an investment, it is a dog. The economics case, or the affordability case, in terms of Mr Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, does not stack up in that sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWhen you put that next to what was proposed before the Kapiti Expressway\u2014when Steven Joyce changed the tack of the National Government\u2014the plan before that was the Western Link Road, which was costed at around $300 million, I believe, and was fully consulted on with the people of the Kapiti Coast. All the permits and all the official documents were signed off, and things were pretty much ready to go, and everyone on the Kapiti Coast thought that this Western Link Road would go ahead. But, no, in December 2009 Steven Joyce rolled \u014Ctaki MP Nathan Guy and decided to go with an option which we now know as the Kapiti Expressway, which is roughly $200 million more than what was planned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWhen you put that into the context of the Government being quite tight in the fiscal department, especially in terms of land transport\u2014and this bill itself allows the Government to borrow more for transport\u2014and when you go from a $300 million project to a $500 million project, that makes the project much more unaffordable for the Government. So to help the Government, Iain Lees-Galloway has put forward this Supplementary Order Paper to ensure that any project that it undertakes is affordable. So there you have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Kapiti Expressway, we could have saved the Government $200 million in one fell swoop by making sure there was a roading solution that was not just a big concrete ribbon through the Kapiti Coast, but it was an upgrading of State Highway 1, it was a local road for the locals, and it was making sure there was a better focus on public transport through the increased electrification of the rail network on the Kapiti Coast. So in terms of affordability, that would have been a much better option for the people of K\u0101piti, but the Government of the day has chosen to ignore that and go ahead with the Kapiti Expressway. We will not quit in our opposition to\u2014you know, there are some people who should be quitting\u2014this expressway, because in the affordability stakes it certainly does not match up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe second point that Mr Lees-Galloway makes in Supplementary Order Paper 234 is about an integrated transport system. I have already touched on this ever so slightly earlier\u2014[Bell rung] I am only on point two of five points, so I had better get a move on. In terms of integration, the solution for the Kapiti Coast would have been what Labour had proposed towards the end of 2008, and that was to upgrade State Highway 1, to build a link road for the Kapiti Coast\u2014so we separated the local traffic from the through traffic who are dead set on heading further north, even though they should have stayed and spent some money on the Kapiti Coast\u2014and also to upgrade the rail link and make it much more accessible and, I guess, affordable for those people who are going to use public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe Government has gone against that. It is gone against integration. What it has done is say: \u201CWe only really care about the big stuff, the big traffic, so we are going to build this $515 million road through the Kapiti Coast.\u201D So what you have now, instead of integration, is the local and the through traffic going on a four-lane motorway that has crashed right through the Kapiti Coast. Anyone who knows the Kapiti Coast well will know that there is a mixture of both young and old. A lot of people head up to the Kapiti Coast to retire. What you are going to get now is, unfortunately, some people, who would probably prefer not to go on a four-lane monstrosity, mixing with the big trucks that are heading either north or south through the Kapiti Coast, and probably feeling very worried about that. So that is not necessarily the best in terms of safety and not the best in terms of an integrated service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAlso, the Government is not looking at upgrading the rail network. There is no focus on that, and I think that is a real loss given the number of people who are now making their homes on the Kapiti Coast and are commuting to Wellington\u2014which is not a dying city, I should add; it is not dying city\u2014heading south, to work. More and more people are doing that and more of them would prefer a much more integrated public transport system. Our option, the Western Link Road, would do that. If the Government did have integrated transport systems at the purpose and at the very heart of this bill, then maybe it would have been able to do that with the Western Link Road plan instead of the Kapiti Expressway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENo. 3\u2014I think I am a bit behind\u2014is safety. I have already mentioned the fact that this road that the Government wants to build is a four-lane monstrosity. Everything will be travelling on it, as opposed to what I said before\u2014you know, the local traffic on the local road, and State Highway 1 being for a lot of the commercial traffic heading further north or further south. In a safety sense, I would prefer, if I was a local, to be on the local road, not mixing with the two-rig trucks that are speeding at 100 kilometres an hour\u2014or maybe a little bit more\u2014down State Highway 1. I think that is awful, in terms of a safety sense. The Western Link Road addressed that, because the locals did not want to be mixing with that through traffic, but the Government has decided to go against that in terms of safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, on to responsiveness. With me here I have the signatures of 4,072 people from the Kapiti Coast. These are the people who were pretty much opposed to\u2014not pretty much, but dead against\u2014the Kapiti Expressway. Instead of being responsive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226747eab000bf41ff8e2dbb36242d4cc8\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Greens help collect those?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9af3b8b800344a5b1783dbdfc7b0a83\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Government ignored these people and is still going through with the Kapiti Expressway. Mr Sabin wanted me to choose a page, so I will for his pleasure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bbd89afd4d4615a13557ea98a82f68\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: A random one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246cf216726cf4598b0eb51047979002a\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: I will choose a random one. Here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ETerry Smith from Wellington\u2014a very good man, Terry Smith; could be a lady\u2014said: \u201CBad idea. High impact on local community. Already have transport corridor.\u201D Good on you, Terry. That is a very good representation of what the situation is. OK, let us go over here. Susan Ansell from K\u0101piti in New Zealand said: \u201CYou can serve the needs of the local community and provide an efficient, sustainable transport solution, improve rail, two-lane Western Link Road improvements to make...the community has not been fully informed on the effect of a four-lane highway. Many are unaware of the negative impact it will have on their community at all.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E So, in terms of responsiveness, this Government has absolutely and utterly ignored the people of the Kapiti Coast. Sure, they want a transport solution, but what this Government has put in front of them and will force on them is not what they wanted. What they wanted was the Western Link Road route, the one that would have had a local road, an upgrade of State Highway 1 for safety and also for capacity, and also an upgrading of the public transport route. This Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002218d5a841eea0425eb024cec97a204e2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218d5a841eea0425eb024cec97a204e2d\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to this Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. There are two issues that I wish to cover, and in the course of addressing those two issues I want to refer to the situation in Nelson. I trust, Mr Chair, that you will bear with me as I explain it a little bit for the benefit of members, so that they can see why this applies, and why this particular bill causes members on this side of the Chamber such anxiety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt certainly causes me anxiety on two counts. One is about environmental provisions, and the other is to do with the curtailing of local community input. So it is those two points that I wish to make in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI see this bill as a Trojan Horse. It is a Trojan Horse because there are provisions in it that although they may not apply to examples such as those my colleagues have already given, they are absolutely critical for proposals that may be considered in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe example I am thinking of in particular is a southern motorway through the Victory community in Nelson. The Hon Nick Smith, the member for Nelson, has been defeated three times in his desire to get a southern motorway through this Victory community centre. On two occasions he has been defeated by the council, which has gone out and done its homework, consulted with the communities, measured traffic flows, and decided that such a motorway is not required. The trouble is that the main road, State Highway 6, which goes through Nelson, goes round the beautiful waterfront. Who owns the houses on the beautiful waterfront? Well, squillionaires own the houses on the beautiful waterfront. Many of them are very strong contributors to Nick Smith\u2019s campaign funds, and they vote National. But I have to say that not all of them vote National. Not all of them vote National, but they will not tell Nick that. They will not tell Nick that, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aeda778dbcf4e7b95d43e8d48797133\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220730afbb3a5f4648add34d453ca6c625\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. They will not tell the Hon Nick Smith that, because they know that they are surrounded by his supporters in that area. So their push, and it is renewed time and time again\u2014in fact, as recently as just a week ago or 10 days ago now there was another front page article in the Nelson Mail about how they want to get the logging trucks off State Highway 6 and, in fact, resurrect the idea of a motorway through the southern link road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill does two things that make the Hon Nick Smith\u2019s desire to please the wealthy funders of his campaign possible. The first, and the most dangerous, is the limitations to community input. The bill gets rid of the obligation to consult communities on regional transport plans, arguing that consultation is done anyway under the Local Government Act. It removes from regional transport committees representatives of the social, environmental, and safety criteria, leaving just elected representatives from the councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere is a vibrant community called Victory in Nelson\u2014and you can join the dots easily enough to see why it is called that, but that is an aside\u2014which comprises people who are in lower socio-economic areas, which houses most of our refugee and migrant population in Nelson, and which really deserves to be consulted and to have a proper and adequate say in whether or not a roading project of the future should go through the middle of its community. This bill is just what Nick Smith needs in order to ensure that there is no input, or minimal input, from local communities, and that there is every chance that central government could nominate that as a road of national significance, change the designation of State Highway 6 from Rocks Road to this new project, and drive a motorway through the Victory community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b1d7c8914c4d8195cd056859161d74\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Better not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a205f707a2d40df8d47fc7d683ca049\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: It had better not, as my colleague Trevor Mallard says. That is absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b55cf8baf4747f5857a11e1f4c8f084\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: There should have been a railway there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256d066b22b6b4841a545b35dc8a82974\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed. What I am concerned about, in addition to this impact on community input, is the environmental impact, and this goes to the point in the bill that takes out the original purpose of the Land Transport Management Act, which had as its purpose statement the requirement for an integrated approach to the transport system, including environmental responsibility and rail and coastal shipping. That disappears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ERail, coastal shipping, and care for the environment are things that would impinge directly on the development of Rocks Road. Rocks Road is a shabby little road. It does get logging trucks up and down it, but it could be beautiful. What is beautiful about it is its view. It keeps getting torn up by logging trucks, that is true, but things could be done if we were to have an integrated transport system, and not a Land Transport Management Act whose purpose is \u201Cto contribute to an effective, efficient, and safe land transport system in the public interest.\u201D Gone are environmental responsibilities. Gone is the imperative to integrate transport options. Coastal shipping in Nelson is absolutely a possibility. It is entirely possible to shift logs by sea. It is possible to reinstate a railway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill is a Trojan Horse. Although my colleagues have outlined particular current proposals that are on the drawing board, such as the Kapiti Expressway, which Kris Faafoi mentioned a moment ago, there are proposals that are not on the drawing board yet but are a twinkle in the eye of the Hon Nick Smith and his supporters in Rocks Road who fund his campaign. His campaign would struggle for funds if it were not for these people in Rocks Road. He depends on them. This is exactly the kind of legislation he requires in order to push through something that is hugely unpopular. If he can limit and restrict the input of community groups through the provisions of this legislation, then he will\u2014he will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI can see the Hon Nick Smith\u2019s fingerprints all over this as well. He will just be biding his time and waiting for the next opportunity when he cannot put additional funding into beautifying the Nelson waterfront, which is entirely possible now with half the contribution from the Nelson City Council and half from central funding because it is a State highway. No, he would like the State highway to go through the middle of a community that, in large measure, does not vote for him. That should not be allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill can be used for destructive purposes, and I would ask the members opposite to consider that and consider whether what they are setting down here for the future is going to be constructive or destructive. Take away community input, take away environmental responsibility, and we are left with a roading programme that detracts from our environment, that ruins our environment, and that does not advance alternative and integrated systems of transport. We are left with an impoverished future as a result. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022df75d16d37eb49c19494e4a388f92f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df75d16d37eb49c19494e4a388f92f56\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 1 of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, particularly right now on clause 9, which amends section 10 of the principle Act to allow the Government to borrow for the National Land Transport Fund. I would like to talk about my concerns about allowing the Government to borrow to pay for projects in the National Land Transport Fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFirstly, at the moment the Government has a very unbalanced transport spend. Over $1 billion is being spent on new State highways. That is over a third of the total transport budget, and very small amounts of money are being allocated to all the other areas that we need to attend to as part of our transport network. That includes the maintenance of our existing local roads, the maintenance and renewals of our existing State highways, and there is a tiny, tiny proportion of money going into walking and cycling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIf you look at the National Land Transport Plan for the next 3 years, there is actually almost no money being put into new public transport infrastructure. At the moment we have a Government that does not understand that the transport system is a network, and the best way to get a good outcome from a network is to make sure that it is balanced. The best way to free up our existing roads for those who need to drive is to allow a small number of people to be able to walk and cycle safely\u2014like children walking and cycling safely to schools so their parents do not have to congest the roads at peak time because they have to drop them off\u2014and to allow a small number of people in our congested urban areas to switch to public transport. Not everybody needs to use public transport, walk, or cycle to benefit from the investment in having that alternative. Unfortunately there is no evidence anywhere in the world that expanding road capacity or building new roads will improve economic productivity or reduce congestion. In fact, there was a letter written to the secretary of transportation in the UK, just a few months ago, by 32 leading transport professionals and academics, people who have worked in this industry for 40 years, saying actually \u201CWe are concerned that our current methods of planning for transport infrastructure and evaluating the economic impacts do not take into account the reality that has been observed everywhere that building new inter-urban roads worsens congestion and does nothing to improve economic productivity.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, essentially, by allowing this Government to borrow to pay for its unbalanced and backwards transport priorities, what is going to happen is future New Zealanders and future Governments will have less money available to spend on the transport projects we actually need. That is because none of the projects the Government is proposing and is going to spend billions of dollars on will actually generate new revenue. Although in theory it may make sense, for example, to borrow to pay for some of Auckland\u2019s transport infrastructure because we are expecting huge growth in Auckland and therefore there will be future ratepayers and taxpayers who will benefit from that infrastructure investment, and we need to plan ahead of that growth, what the Government is planning to do is to borrow to pay for Transmission Gully. It is going to borrow through the private sector through a private-public partnership, which actually is essentially just taking out a loan from the private sector. So instead of paying 4 percent\u2014and the Government could realistically borrow at 4 percent\u2014it will be paying 12 percent to 14 percent or 10 percent to 12 percent so that the private investors have a guaranteed return for the 25 years of the life of the project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat National is doing is spending future taxpayers\u2019 money now. It wants to expand the amount of money available to them to throw away at senseless transport projects that will not benefit the economy, unfortunately, and yet future taxpayers will have to pay these back with interest\u2014with excessive interest in the case of the public-private partnerships\u2014and they will not have the money available to maintain our existing road network. They will not have the money available to invest in the very vital alternatives that people in urban areas are crying out for. Everywhere we have invested in congestion-free public transport alternatives, it has been wildly successful. We can see that with the northern busway and we can see that with the investments that have been made in the Auckland rail network so far. We have had huge growth in both of those areas, much higher than what was modelled. That has led to declining traffic volumes on State highways, which means there are fewer problems with congestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002279822921e65f4a9b943026159006144b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279822921e65f4a9b943026159006144b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I note that no National Party member contested the call with me. I note that no National Party member is prepared to defend Gerry Brownlee. I note that no member with any responsibility for the transport area has bothered to sit in the chair or to defend the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. That is probably because it is more or less indefensible, and they are waving the white flag on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do note the comments that my colleague Maryan Street made with regard to the Victory area. As the successor to the member for Pencarrow I note that my predecessor Sonja Davies cut her political teeth on the ripping of the railway line out of the Victory area. Now, I understand Nick Smith wants to put a motorway through there. I think we might be past putting a railway back into that part of Nelson but I think this is the sort of bill that would allow a motorway to go through that community, and that would be something that would be absolutely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn making that comment my colleague was referring to the importance of integrated transport planning and spending. I do want to commend the Greens speaker who made the last speech, Julie Anne Genter, because I think she has got her head around the importance of having integrated planning as far as transport is concerned. I think all of us in our electorates have areas where if things were done more logically, we would have less spending on roads and more on the alternative to roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn my electorate, Hutt South, clearly an increase in public transport is warranted. An increase in alternatives to our roads would include in my area the Wainui\u014Dmata Hill bridge\u2014a bridge across the top of the hill that would mean that people could walk over the hill, take the bridge over the top of the road, and then walk down the other side. At the moment people have to dodge their way across the road, slightly blind to transport coming from both directions, and it is quite dangerous for people to either bike or walk on the paths and to cross at the top. A bridge was going to be available and was heading for the top of that hill\u2014I think a bridge actually used to be proposed at P\u0113tone before they made the changes at P\u0113tone\u2014and the National Government changed the rules as to the alternatives to roads. It meant that the money that would otherwise have been available was no longer available. I just think that that is wrong. It creates danger for individuals and it means that a lot of people who would bike do not bike because it is seen by them to be dangerous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn a similar way the focus on having more and more motorways means that some of the logical things, such as the improvement of the railway links around the Wellington wharves, have not happened. I think for a long time now, probably for at least a decade, there has been a focus on getting grade separation\u2014that means bridges and overpasses\u2014around the ferry terminal in Wellington in order to be able to bring in much more freight into the Wellington waterfront by way of train rather than truck, thereby freeing up the motorways and freeing up the road from the Wairarapa so that things can come down\u2014logs, in particular\u2014on the train and be there immediately in time for the ships. There is a lot of logic to it, but the problem at the moment is that the trains and the road traffic conflict, and when a train comes in, you have a massive traffic jam. What is needed, obviously\u2014[Interruption] Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15fed80ec7a4909a9da4247ea47ac48\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: A log jam.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022500095db5b8b44c0b698483a0cf04c99\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The logs are jammed up in both senses. Both the ones on the trucks and the ones on the trains end up getting jammed up, and as a result of that there is clearly a much more logical way of using the money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe changes in the ratios mean that the Cross Valley Link, which would take a lot of traffic off The Esplanade, which is, again, another jammed-up point in the Hutt Valley, and would feed across Whites Line East, off the Wainui Hill out of Naenae, and across a new bridge and into the Dowse Interchange\u2014$40 million spent on the Dowse Interchange\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db32fb42c6784b90809c976c81057356\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222222e6bfd15542fe8133ac969eef18dc\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Forty million dollars was spent on the Dowse Interchange, and what is it? It is an interchange to nowhere, because the road that was meant to come off it has been cancelled by the National Government\u2014cancelled by the National Government. You know, it is just a silly approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe last point that I want to make I make more with my sports spokesperson hat on. I refer to the definition of \u201Cevent\u201D here and the change in policy with regard to sports events, which has been very recently drawn to my attention. Previously, what used to happen\u2014and I think this was probably under the leadership of the Hon Annette King, although it possibly happened earlier\u2014was that there was some funding going out of the land transport budget and into the police budget for the police to do safety work, which included work around sports. I, as members know, have an interest in cycling. But that funding has been changed by the National Government from, I understand, only about 1 March this year, or it might have been 1 April this year, so that the police are no longer contracted\u2014they are no longer funded\u2014in order to do their police work around sporting events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI have got an example of this. It is one of the long-term examples, just north of Mr Faafoi\u2019s electorate, Mana. For years, during a local cycle race that goes round Akatarawa and up the Paek\u0101k\u0101riki Hill, the local policeman has come out for about an hour and overridden the traffic lights to let the cyclists through as they come through in bunches in order to not have 400 or 500 people together in a group on the road as a result of the lights turning red and the cyclists having to stop. This was a logical safety measure that allowed the traffic and the cyclists to flow and not to end up being many abreast and becoming a massive safety factor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe ruling of the Government means that that work is no longer done. At the first instance of that race happening after that ruling, about 5 kilometres down the road afterwards, because of a massive bunch of cyclists and the pressure from cars and trucks, there was an accident that involved, I think, about 37 cyclists\u201437 cyclists\u2014being knocked out of the race, and two of them being hospitalised. Four ambulances were required and two of the cyclists were hospitalised, all because the National Government, in order to try to save a wee bit of money in this area, said that the local policeman was not allowed to go there for an hour to do the safety work for which the police had previously been contracted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThese people opposite know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I am not even going to say that they were conscious of the effects that they were making when they changed their rules, because I am not sure that they actually read the papers that are put in front of them that make this sort of change. I appealed to Hekia Parata. I would have thought that Mr Brownlee, the current Minister of Transport, would have been across it\u2014although it might have happened in the time of Steven Joyce, and we knew that he did not read his papers properly. That was certainly the case with him. But we have got to know that safety is important to this Government. We have got to know that we have integrated transport planning, and this bill gives us no hope whatsoever that the Government knows what it is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd0c6ce1022143c0bf14fdf4b2aff1fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd0c6ce1022143c0bf14fdf4b2aff1fd\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u0022afad8acd1f074348bdee7d90111da535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afad8acd1f074348bdee7d90111da535\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to Part 1 of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, I must say that I absolutely agree with all of the speakers on this side of the Chamber, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e653412a3f21491babca4564c55c598c\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re the only ones who\u2019ve spoken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd400bf310c9489b98b9c841b2487bf5\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, but I think they would still be the only ones whom I agreed with. However, as did the honourable Mr Faafoi, I would like to speak about the change from an affordable, integrated, safe, responsible, and sustainable land transport system to\u2014and this is where they just play on those words, over on that side\u2014\u201Can effective, efficient, and safe transport system in the public interest.\u201D What is the public interest? Well, the public interest is certainly not the danger of having this collapsed funding for sustainable transport and sustainable transport programmes. In the city that I dwell in, Tauranga, that would wipe out walking school buses for children programmes, kids on feet programmes, kids on bikes, bikeways, and everything that is associated with getting rid of the congestion around schools and with making it safer around schools and making our children safer. This bill has the potential to completely collapse that funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EThe Government does, however, talk about exhibiting a sense of social and environmental responsibility, but again it is just talk, and it is not in the objectives statement. The new Government policy statement also removes affordability, which may enable the Government to justify building new roads that do not have a cost-benefit ratio factor outcome, like the Auckland \u201CHoliday Highway\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EI think I will touch on some of the roads around Wellington, because it is obvious that members on that side of the Chamber know very little about Wellington, and I will say that the only thing dying in Wellington is support for the National Party. But let us talk about Transmission Gully and the Porirua bypass. When we talk about Transmission Gully, the only way that fits into the cost-benefit ratio is when you extend it through \u014Ctaki and all the way to Taup\u014D, and then it fits and then you can have it. If we look at the Porirua bypass, what about the people from Porirua and some of those areas who may not be able to afford the road toll that is inevitably going to be thrust upon unsuspecting motorists there? They are going to have to do this massive dog-leg to get into the city. I mean, it is absolutely ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EI would also just like to touch on the undemocratic way in which this Government seems to be operating. I would like to ask some of our Labour members, who are far more experienced than me, whether they have ever heard of a Minister preventing a local MP from getting a traffic briefing from the New Zealand Transport Agency on the future of roading in their area, because that is what happened to me. The Minister of Transport stopped the officials from briefing me on the plans for roading in the Bay of Plenty and the Western Bay of Plenty. I think that is just another indication of what this Government is all about. It is just trying to railroad through bills with very little scrutiny. At the end of the day it is New Zealanders who pay the cost, and it is a massive cost. I would say, please do not play with the safety of our children and the future of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002235f7d4ee6667498ca2f59b15f47a9f39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235f7d4ee6667498ca2f59b15f47a9f39\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E First, I would like to say that in my first contribution on this Part 1 of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, in the first 5 minutes that I got, I spoke to my Supplementary Order Paper 235. That is a very serious Supplementary Order Paper. It is a serious amendment that regional councils want to see happen and I think that the Government members owe it to regional councils to get up and say what their position is. So whether you are for it or against it, please let us know and please let local government know what your position is, what the position of the Government is, and why. I think that is the very least that Government members could actually undertake. But, no, what we have had is Mr O\u2019Connor taking a closure motion, and it looked like Mr Sabin was quite keen to take one as well, without a single member of the Government benches taking a single call on this bill. That, I think, tells you exactly how ashamed they are of this legislation, in the fact that they do not even want to get up and tell us about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI want to talk about my other Supplementary Order Paper 234, which would restore the original purpose of the Act. Basically, what National is doing by changing the purpose of this Act is giving central government absolute control over what roading projects\u2014sorry, a slip of the tongue there, but it really does reflect what this Government wants, which is roads, roads, roads, and mega-roads. Actually, it is not about roads; it is about mega-highways, and that is it. That is what the purpose is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe word in particular that I think is really missing from the new purpose, which would be restored if my amendment was adopted by the Committee, is that word \u201Cintegrated\u201D. Probably the most important word that is going to be missing from the Act now is having an \u201Cintegrated\u201D transport system. I thought that some of the contributions from the National Party members in the second reading of this bill were a bit thick, to be honest\u2014a bit thick. I know what they are trying to do. They are trying to position Opposition parties and trying to play politics here. But let us have a sensible serious conversation about our transport needs, because what David Bennett tried to say is that the Opposition parties hate roads. Well, guess what, Mr Bennett? Under that Government, under the National Government, local roads up and down this country are being completely overlooked. There are roads in my electorate that need to be built and need to be maintained and they will not be. The New Zealand Transport Agency has turned down the funding, it has said no to the local councils, because all the money\u2014all the money\u2014is going to the roads of national significance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo I do not accept it when National Party members get up and say they are interested in roads, and they are interested in economic development, and they are interested in supporting the regions, when regional roads and local roads up and down New Zealand are falling apart and not being supported. This Government does not care about an integrated transport system. It does not care about an integrated transport system and it refuses to have a law that says that when funding decisions are made about transport, the economic viability, the environmental viability, and the social sustainability of infrastructure need to be taken into account\u2014not even economic viability. Of course, we know that the only projects that this Government supports\u2014its monster motorways\u2014are not even economically viable, let alone considering their impact on the environment or their impact on local communities. That is why this Government does not want to support the idea of having an integrated transport system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAny transport system needs roads. If you look at a transport need and you look at the variety of solutions available, sometimes it will be a highway. Sometimes that will be the right response. Sometimes it will be a road. I think of the Western Link Road, which Mr Faafoi\u2019s electorate is not going to get\u2014the Western Link Road, which Mr Faafoi\u2019s electorate is not going to get. There are the roads in Palmerston North that would support the central distribution transport hub, which we are not going to get. There is the road that Andrew Little wants in Taranaki, which Taranaki is not going to get under this Government. All the Government is interested in are the roads of national significance, not local roads, not regional roads, and certainly not rail or coastal shipping\u2014certainly not rail or coastal shipping. Sometimes those will be the answers as well. Sometimes, if we think about the economic benefits or we think about the social benefits, or we think about the safety of getting freight off roads and on to rail or on to coastal shipping, that will be the right answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EBut what this bill does is it creates a situation where that will never be the answer. The analysis that the New Zealand Transport Agency has to undertake will never come up with the answer that a railroad is the right answer or that greater use of coastal shipping is the right answer. That is because the National Party wants to control the National Land Transport Fund so that it can look after its mates\u2014its mates in the trucking industry and its mates who want to make money out of public-private partnerships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe other thing that this bill does is it supports greater borrowing to pay for those unaffordable roads and it supports uneconomic, ludicrous, economically mad public-private partnerships like the one at Transmission Gully. Let us look at Transmission Gully as an example of the foolishness of this Government. Labour actually supports building Transmission Gully. Labour supports building Transmission Gully; it is something that we would do. But we think it should cost $1 billion, not $3 billion. The National Party wants it to cost $3 billion. It wants to charge New Zealanders $2 billion more than is necessary to build Transmission Gully. Why? So it can do it by public-private partnership. There is no evidence. The Government has not been able to produce a shred of evidence that building Transmission Gully by public-private partnership will be safer, more efficient, more effective, or, most important, cheaper. It cannot demonstrate that. In fact, Government members are so nervous about this that when the Labour Party requested information under the Official Information Act, they gave us information but they removed the public sector comparator. They removed the bit that says how much it would cost to build under the traditional procurement model. I wonder why that is. I wonder why they are not prepared to tell us that number. I bet\u2014I bet anything you like\u2014that the reason is that the public sector comparator comes out much, much better than the public-private partnership. You do not even need to guess at this. You have just to look at the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s predictions for transport costs over the next 30 years. It put in a special line that accounted for building Transmission Gully by public-private partnership, and that line showed that it was going to cost $2 billion more than building it under the traditional model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo the New Zealand Transport Agency knows it. Government members know it. Why on earth are they doing it New Zealanders can only guess, but I would like to offer one possibility, and that is that they like providing low-risk, high-return investment opportunities to their mates in the banking sector. That is what they have done with Mighty River Power and that is what they are doing with the Transmission Gully public-private partnership. This bill is all about National tightening its control over the land transport system so that it can look after its mates and cherry-pick projects for itself, not run a sensible analysis of each project and choose them on their merits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett was going on about the Waikato Expressway and my position on that. I came to Hamilton, I spoke to people, and do you know what I said? I said: \u201CWe have to take a look at this, Mr Bennett. We have to take a look at this and we have to run a sensible economic analysis of the project.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa9b1aa803e4676bb45bc8abe5a729e\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not going to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248e6d69dcbcd4d2793b4b95931eb46c1\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: If you do not like that, Mr Bennett, if you do not like the idea of a sensible economic analysis being run on a transport project, that simply reveals that this Government just wants to cherry-pick projects whether or not they make sense, whether or not they are good for the taxpayer, whether or not they are good for local ratepayers, whether or not they are good for the environment, whether or not they are socially acceptable, and whether or not they are the socially right thing to do. This National Government just does not believe in evidence and proper analysis; it just picks ideas out of the air and picks and chooses its own ideas. That is what this bill is all about. We had a system whereby the New Zealand Transport Agency had to sit down and do a rigorous analysis of what projects should be supported. That is what Labour had to bring in after 10 years of National building road after road after road after road. Labour came in and said we needed an integrated transport system and that is what we set up. But all this does is go back to the old days, the fossilised view of the National Party of the 1950s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6edc460321f4d01aebf3e6f8f2ccd3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6edc460321f4d01aebf3e6f8f2ccd3f\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002278c8571ca42d452d8957bebf16cf71a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278c8571ca42d452d8957bebf16cf71a5\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the ability to take a call on this Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, particularly given that I have Supplementary Order Paper 238, which I would like to share with the Committee and which relates specifically to the notion of exempt services. I have not heard too much discussion, in the time that I have been in the Chamber, around the debate that I am sure was had amongst Transport and Industrial Relations Committee members on exempt services, but it is an area that has the potential to derail our ability to create integrated public transport in critical areas like Auckland. New Subpart 2 in clause 69 of the bill contains the detail around exempt services. They are essentially those services that will not be able to be required by councils to be privy to all of the things that they have in their transport plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EPreviously, before the bill went to the select committee, the criteria for an exempt service were contained in new section 129(2)(a) through to (e) in new Subpart 2, in clause 69. They have been struck out. Previously an exempt service included \u201Ca ferry service registered with the regional council as a commercial public transport service under the Public Transport Management Act\u201D. It then included certain types of bus services, and so on. They have been struck out. Now the criterion for an exempt service is a public transport service that, for instance, operates without a subsidy for the provision of the service. That is a key little indicator in there that no longer are we being explicit about exemptions being specific to ferry services. Now we are saying that one of the main criteria is that you do not receive subsidies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this is that there is a somewhat controversial provider of transport in Auckland that provides ferry services to Waiheke Island. Waiheke Island is predominantly serviced by a sole provider. Some will argue that there are other options. Those who take that service daily will argue that they have very few options other than those provided by Fullers ferry services. Fullers ferry services, very early on in the discussion around this bill, directly approached Steven Joyce and asked Mr Joyce whether it could be exempt from the provisions of this bill and be considered an exempt service. Clearly, it was given an indication by Mr Joyce that that was going to be acceptable, because when Fullers then went to the select committee, it included in its submission that it had already been given assurances that it would be an exempt service, to the degree that it had purchased additional infrastructure, which, it implied, it otherwise may not have invested in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhy is this interesting? Well, for one thing, some people would think that Fullers actually does receive a subsidy from the Government. It receives a hefty amount through the SuperGold Card. Many SuperGold Card holders use Fullers ferry services. Secondly, by being exempt from this bill, we will continue to have an operator\u2014with Auckland Council having very little ability to ensure that the operator provides the kind of service that commuters require. If Fullers was not in the game of providing that service, the council argues that in some form it would have to step in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe council argued on that basis that Fullers should not be an exempt service, but, unfortunately, that was an argument that, given Fullers had gone directly to the Minister, clearly was lost. Why? Why should it not be an exempt service? It would argue that it is a private operator, and there is no reason why it should be included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWell, when you look at what the content of a regional public transport plan includes, it includes the ability to provide an outline of the routes, the frequency, and the hours of operation. It would give, for instance, Auckland Council the ability\u2014if for any reason the service dropped below what it would consider necessary for a fully integrated public transport network to be sufficient, it would at least have some grounds for engagement around that. Secondly, for those that are included and covered, which an exempt service would not be, it allows the council some ability and say over accessibility, quality, and performance\u2014an issue that is of major concern for commuters from Waiheke Island who do not always believe that they get that level of service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt also allows transparency around fare setting, the method or formula, and around the reviewing of fares. This is not to say that you suddenly have the council coming in and being able to set the service\u2019s fares, but it at least adds a layer of transparency around that. That is certainly something that has been demanded for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think Auckland Council was right to say Fullers should not be an exempt service. My Supplementary Order Paper would remove it from being an exempt service. It would allow for integrated fare structures, and that is what I think we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u002275c3bdd4a3f24858a98e94fcf8a27e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c3bdd4a3f24858a98e94fcf8a27e0d\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002246fe94b4ca7440848236fe9c45b5a23b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246fe94b4ca7440848236fe9c45b5a23b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I am going to hear from Dr Megan Woods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002259323a942daa4444819905699a607048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259323a942daa4444819905699a607048\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take my first call on this Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, because I think it is really important and I think it is important for us to get on record why it is that, all over the country, Labour has a problem with this bill. My main two problems, actually, are covered by my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers 234 and 235. I want to focus particularly on this: the constraints within the purpose of the bill and the limits of local input\u2014so Supplementary Order Papers 234 and 235\u2014and to talk about these particularly in relation to transport planning, which is integral to the rebuild of Christchurch, and the transport planning that is happening there at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIf we have a look at the first of these, the bill as it currently stands removes the purpose statement of the Land Transport Management Act, which sets out the integrated approach to the transport system. Many of my colleagues have talked about this and what it will mean at a local level and the problems that this puts in place. We have specifically touched on how removing the integrated approach to transport\u2014including the environmental responsibility that goes with that, along with rail and coastal shipping\u2014is a backward step, and I want to show how this will be the case in Christchurch. The other thing that I want to touch on is the changes to the make-up of the regional transport committees and talk about the importance of local community input into planning effective transport systems that will operate well in certain localities. After all, Labour does believe very strongly that local communities need to have a strong say in their local futures, and transport is very much one of those areas where we would like to see this happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn Christchurch, as we plan our recovery, we see transport as absolutely central to this recovery. One of the key things that we are grappling with, and that the Government opposite is grappling with as well, is how the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, the New Zealand Transport Agency, Environment Canterbury, and the Christchurch City Council are all going to fund different elements of the transport recovery strategy and the transport recovery plan\u2014different agencies have different responsibilities for different parts of this\u2014and how all this is going to fit together. I think the case of Christchurch shows very clearly the need to have this very integrated approach to transport, because we cannot think of just one mode of transport as we think about transport recovery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the Christchurch Central Development Unit has just drafted a transport chapter as part of its plan for the recovery of the central city of Christchurch, but within this\u2014I mean, in many ways there are some very positive steps about what transport in a recovered Christchurch is going to look like. But one of the things that we in Labour have signalled as a really strong concern that we have with this chapter is that there is no detail about how it connects up with other elements of planning within transport. So how does it connect with Christchurch City\u2019s transport strategy? How does it link with the Canterbury Regional Land Transport Strategy? How do all these things go together? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EGoing back to my colleague\u2019s second Supplementary Order Paper, in terms of the make-up of the regional transport committees and the need to have this local input into them, we have real concerns. One of the things we know is that the majority of submitters who came to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, including representatives from the regional transport committees, really wanted to maintain the status quo of requiring specialist experts, including the police, disability experts\u2014and I would like to come back to that, about the need to have a city with very accessible transport in the 21st century\u2014and representatives from walking and cycling groups on regional transport committees, as they have valuable input to make. Having this wide variety of experts and perspectives in the transport planning and funding process at the outset ensures that far more robust discussions are had about priorities and about projects. But the concern is that if the funding is not there, it is not actually going to have this diversity of views that will lead to the integrated approach to transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo what is it that we are hearing from Christchurch residents on what they want in their recovered transport plan? Well, one of the things that we are hearing very loud and clear, and that the Christchurch City Council heard really loud and clear, and also the Christchurch Central Development Unit, when it put its transport chapter out for consultation, is that Christchurch citizens very much want\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d39aa471f6834e03a31628f25f7de816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d39aa471f6834e03a31628f25f7de816\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on Part 1 of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. What this bill seeks to do is very important, particularly when it comes to local input into roading priorities. That is a system that has been very important in the last few years, as regional councils and district councils have come together with their roading committees and with local interested groups\u2014the Road Transport Forum, I know, in Taranaki plays a big role\u2014and other interested parties to discuss what should happen in our roading priorities in the area of Taranaki. This bill will take that away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill will take away the stake that those people\u2014the major users of roads, whether they are commercial or non-commercial users\u2014have; their right to have a say on what those priorities should be. That, in my submission, is what damns this bill. For all the good parts in it\u2014the public transport operating mechanism that is provided for in the bill, which is not a bad thing\u2014it is the failure to allow local and regional input into roading priorities that is fatal, along with the much narrower brief, drive, and purpose of the bill that is provided for there. It is for that reason that I support Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers 234 and 235, which seek to change those provisions of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EMaintaining the quality and the standard of roading, whether it is new roads\u2014and the Green Party certainly has a view about whether or not we need to break into new roads\u2014or existing roads, and, above all, the safety of them, still remains a crucial responsibility of the Government, and because the funding comes through central government, it is the responsibility of central government. This bill takes away the opportunity for local solutions, even for roading upgrades and roading improvements, by abolishing the regional fuel taxes. That is not an option that has been widely taken up since it has been on the statute book, but it has always remained a possibility, as something that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know that over the last 3 or 4 years the regional councils have been grappling with roading issues, and roading priorities have had to use the regional funding that they have had access to, effectively to work on State highway roading that is properly the responsibility of the New Zealand Transport Agency. So they had less to put into what are truly regional roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI come back to the issue I raised about State Highway 3\u2014certainly, that section north of New Plymouth. That is becoming an issue that is demanding great priority. It is screaming out for attention, and yet of all the Government MPs who live in and around that area, not one has seen fit to address this House and give some reassurance to this House and the people of Taranaki / New Plymouth that they are taking that issue seriously\u2014not one MP from that area, except me. I am the only MP in this House connected with Taranaki who is prepared to stand up and argue that State Highway 3, north of New Plymouth, must be a priority for the New Zealand Transport Agency and for this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder stood up earlier today to apologise for the failure of the Government to give it proper attention. He is an apologist. He has become an apologist for doing nothing, as, indeed, has Jonathan Young, as, indeed, has Shane Ardern, as, indeed, has Chester Borrows\u2014apologists for doing nothing. David Bennett, who lives in Waikato, is an apologist for doing nothing for Taranaki because he knows that if he can suck up as much money as possible for the Waikato Expressway, that is all good for him. Well, it is not good for the people of Taranaki, and, frankly, the people of Taranaki deserve better. They deserve better. They deserve a better bill. They deserve a bill that allows for much greater local input, leaves the opportunity and the options for genuine local solutions in place, and provides in its purpose a provision that will allow a broad range of solutions\u2014roading and integrated transport\u2014to be considered at a local level. This bill does not do that and that is why we remain opposed to it. It is a bad bill and it should be opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00221387f9c3e1a34021ae0e93cffc5f3d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221387f9c3e1a34021ae0e93cffc5f3d90\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to have another opportunity to take a call on Part 1 of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, as there are so many different changes happening in Part 1 of this bill. I have already spoken about my concerns with the changes to the purpose of the principal Act and the lack of the Government\u2019s willingness to listen to the many submissions that were opposed to that. I have talked about our concerns with the transitional measures and other elements of the Public Transport Operating Model that are going to entrench existing bus monopolies. I have talked about the problems with borrowing or going to public-private partnerships to fund transport priorities, when those new projects do not generate new revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFurther concerns that I have are to do with clause 14 and clauses 66 and 67. These are related to the core requirements of the regional land transport programmes prepared by regional transport committees and the make-up of the regional transport committees. During the select committee process we heard from a number of regional councils, people who have sat on regional land transport committees, and, in almost every single case, perhaps every single case, they said that they benefited greatly from the additional members, such as representation from the police, representation from the disability community, and representation from cyclists and walking advocacy groups, because all of those different perspectives were able to provide the regional transport committee with solutions to problems before projects were implemented. So, even though it may have taken a little bit more time, having that broad perspective from a number of different areas resulted in more robust decisions being made. When we see the sort of horrific accident that happened at the KiwiRail level crossing in Morningside, where there was not adequate disabled access and a woman in a wheelchair was trapped and hit by a train, that sort of problem with the design of transport projects is exactly what can be avoided if you have robust input into the projects and into the prioritisation of projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAlthough I expected regional land transport representatives to tell me that there was some problem with having these additional representatives on their regional and transport committees, in fact, every single one of them, when I asked them about it, said that, no, they really valued it, and they did not want the change that the Government was proposing. So it does not seem like there was actually any problem with having that broad representation or requirement for broad representation in the principal Act. The problem, or perception of a problem, came from the Government, which simply wants to streamline everywhere. The results of streamlining and making this change, despite the fact that the individuals directly involved said that it was beneficial, will be that we will see more of these problems where regional land transport committees will not have the diverse interests of end-users put into the planning and programming of the regional land transport priorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EA further problem that was raised by my colleague Andrew Little just a moment ago was the fact that there is actually a downgrading of the ability of regional councils to set their own priorities. We see this in clause 14 with the changes to the core requirements of regional land transport plans. They are going to be required to be consistent with the Government\u2019s Policy Statement on Land Transport Funding. So what the Government is essentially doing with this bill is concentrating more and more decision-making power at the central level, as to which transport projects will get funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of different problems with this. Firstly, regional and local ratepayers are major contributors to the money that is going into transport projects. They really should have some say as to what their priorities are. But, secondly, it is actually taxpayers all over the regions who are paying the road-user charge and the fuel taxes that are going into the central government\u2019s transport budget. Ironically, when the previous Minister of Transport, Steven Joyce, asked the Ministry of Transport for advice on the amount of vehicle trips that were being taken on local roads, which are half-funded by ratepayers, not by road users, and how many were being taken on State highways, which are 100 percent funded by the Government but are, basically, funded by road users everywhere, asking whether they are driving on local roads or on State highways, what it showed was that the number\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022259f9ddeb2a443e2be00098404f09924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022259f9ddeb2a443e2be00098404f09924\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill as a new member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which considered the bill. I am sad to say, though, that I rise to reiterate Labour\u2019s opposition to this bill because of the narrowness for which this Government has now become famous in terms of how it deals with many issues locally. We know that it narrowed the local government bill down so that social well-being and people\u2019s wellness were not part of what was taken care of, and here it goes again with land transport management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI want to speak specifically to Supplementary Order Paper 234 in the name of my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway and support this Supplementary Order Paper being voted through. This would actually fix up the very problem I have just highlighted. What Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 234 does is restate what the purpose of land transport management legislation should be. It would bring back the purpose of the Land Transport Management Act to being \u201Cto contribute to the aim of achieving an affordable, integrated, safe, responsive, and sustainable land transport system.\u201D Why would any Government not vote for a purpose statement like that for land transport management legislation? Why would it not vote to make sure that our land transport management system achieved affordable, integrated, safe, responsive, and sustainable land transport? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIf we think about sustainable land transport systems in the Waikato area, where I come from, it reminds me of a push that has come locally to have a commuter passenger train between Hamilton and Auckland. This is so popular that 13,800 people signed a petition asking the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to look at the issue of establishing such a service. That member opposite, the chair of the select committee, David Bennett, who is from the area, actually made sure that the select committee did not hear that petition. He, as a local Hamilton member, made sure that those 13,800 people did not have their views heard in front of the select committee. I think that was a sham in terms of democracy. I have never seen a select committee that has turned down and stopped so many petitions from being heard as the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee under David Bennett\u2019s chairpersonship. It has been quite shocking. Those 13,800 people were after a sustainable land transport management system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett likes to go on about the billions of dollars spent on the Waikato Expressway, which actually, by his own Government\u2019s admission, would save only 10 minutes\u2019 drive time between Hamilton and Auckland in 10 years\u2019 time\u2014in 10 years\u2019 time. That is the thing that we are spending billions of dollars on: saving 10 minutes\u2019 drive time between Hamilton and Auckland in 10 years\u2019 time. Well, if we spent a tiny, tiny proportion of that actually supporting a commuter passenger train service between Hamilton and Auckland, we could save 10 minutes right now. We would not have to wait 10 years for it. We could save 10 minutes\u2019 drive time right here, right now, with much less taxpayer money being spent on it, and have a sustainable transport system, with road and rail working together to complement each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWhen people get on the Waikato Expressway and in 10 years\u2019 time save their 10 minutes\u2019 drive time, only to sit in that southern motorway car-park\u2014the great car-park at the end of the southern motorway; it is clogged up because they have not got public transport working well in Auckland\u2014there will be no benefit whatsoever. They are going to spend 10 minutes more sitting in traffic on the southern motorway to get to work in Auckland in the morning, even though billions of dollars will have been spent on the Waikato Expressway. It just is not the best spend of money that could be happening\u2014it is not the best spend of money. We could have already fixed it in the time that it took David Bennett to stop those 13,800 people from having their voice heard over getting a passenger train service in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd91fb175f9240468a4d84811d8254ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd91fb175f9240468a4d84811d8254ca\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002225d1d27d22e94600af91de5cd5104d4d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000751\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 230 in the name of the Hon Gerry Brownlee, and the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 231 in his name, to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002202c963f246fd4ce69ba2122f8ec1768b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000752\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 in the name of Iain Lees-Galloway to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225ad0fab6174f4862947105bd30bedf62\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000753\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 238 in the name of Jacinda Ardern to clause 69 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cc465045657845009b9d9d3681723ba5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000754\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 235 in the name of Iain Lees-Galloway to clause 69 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022959fb6609b4343b896956a9cf33f7170\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222429e20f591d4855ad0f13f227c00901\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c91f6bfd77f492d84e3fd47d14063d5\u0022\u003EPart 2  Miscellaneous\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f0e3ceea75345e98da5e00538c698ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a2ee4b7210943b7a2e0a1b41f0206de\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000757\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 230 in the name of the Hon Gerry Brownlee to the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228dffc9cd80064847b6333678a4efd516\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278baa8e5018c4e0fb4089a5e9195b73e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022982707bbb0c641bab7bfd11b2f8efb7f\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203530b5a2a73419584f6d0e648840984\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000759\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 230 in the name of the Hon Gerry Brownlee to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d017e4c37d8e4782b2df6b14364e1cf4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3c52bcd51b0475f94ee3983b89119cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3c52bcd51b0475f94ee3983b89119cf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The next typescript amendment is in the name of Brendan Horan. It replaces clause 2(1). The:tion is that the amendment be agreed to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca79ed46e53d4c8085aac1363cd7fc1a\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would just like to clarify whether I can speak to this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa91279d4db42b1b892b55fbc0d0356\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you cannot. The reason you cannot speak to it is that I moved at the beginning that clauses 1 to 3 stand part. At that stage you had the opportunity to debate clauses 1, 2, or 3. No one did, and that is why we are now going through the votes. So you have actually lost that opportunity, and I am now going to put the question on your amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Brendan Horan to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003Ereplace subclause (1) with:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E(1)\tSections 42 and 70(2) come into force on the earlier of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E(a)\ta date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E(b)\t31 December 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225cbe0ed70a3342fcb49f7012cd1a948d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221adb95e32a344f59ab07076b683182d0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002251ed68f634454551b78bec88e3706e4f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000768\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000769\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c73376654f08472dbf44b36be447e0d8\u0022\u003ETrustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282916e7a148542eeb326eb23c097ae33\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022857a53e7018d4b6eb0420e2082265825\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022857a53e7018d4b6eb0420e2082265825\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. This bill clarifies the process for appointing a replacement securities trustee. Section 46 of the Trustee Act allows the High Court to appoint Public Trust as replacement trustee for any trustee who wishes to retire or resign. This rule was first enacted in 1899 to ensure that family trusts or estates did not fail for lack of a trustee. Trusts have significantly changed since then. Trusts have become increasingly popular for commercial uses, including raising money for the public. Some of the rules applying to traditional trusts are out of place when applied to corporate trusts. A trustee of a failing or failed finance company trust can ask the court to appoint Public Trust as replacement trustee. This was not envisaged when the rule in section 46 was enacted. To date this rule has never been used to appoint Public Trust as a securities trustee. If it is used in this way, securities trustees will be able to walk away from their responsibilities by asking the court to have Public Trust appointed in their place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere may be very good reasons for appointing Public Trust to stop a family trust from failing, but we need a different approach for appointing a replacement trustee for a finance company. That approach is coming in the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, which is currently before Parliament, but it will not begin to come into force until 2014, and we need change now. The law puts Public Trust on an unequal and unfair playing field. It is unequal because the existing trustee is not required to contact other trustees in the market and try to negotiate terms with them to act as a replacement trustee. It is unfair because the current legislation does not ensure that Public Trust\u2019s reasonable fees and expenses will be met. Although the court has discretion to award costs to Public Trust, it is unclear whether and how this discretion will be exercised. This is not a hypothetical risk; it is real and it is happening now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EPerpetual Trust is trustee for the failed finance company Capital \u002B Merchant Finance. Perpetual Trust has applied to the High Court to have Public Trust appointed as replacement trustee. Public Trust is unlikely to recover its expenses from the company. This bill does not seek to affect those court proceedings. Public Trust will have to wear the cost if it is appointed. The bill will remove the risk of the case setting a precedent. Public Trust could be appointed as replacement trustee for many more failed finance companies. There are 60 finance companies currently in receivership, liquidation, or moratorium. It would take only a few appointments of the same scale as Capital \u002B Merchant Finance for Public Trust to incur more than $1 million of unanticipated and unfunded costs. Furthermore, Public Trust may incur more than a significant financial burden. Being a trustee for failed finance companies may impact on Public Trust\u2019s reputation and brand. It will put Public Trust at a competitive disadvantage. Its current business activities will need to be reprioritised. Public Trust is required by law to operate as a competitive business. To place on it the burden of acting as a replacement trustee for securities trustees puts it at an unfair disadvantage in the competitive market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill makes an urgent amendment to the Trustee Act. The amendment will clarify the process for appointing replacement securities trustees. Securities trustees are those who supervise offers of securities to the public under the Securities Act 1978 and are licensed by the Financial Markets Authority under the Securities Trustees and Statutory Supervisors Act 2011. Instead of allowing a securities trustee to merely resign or retire and ask the court to appoint Public Trust as a replacement, this bill requires more effort on behalf of the retiring trustee. A retiring securities trustee must make reasonable endeavours to appoint a replacement trustee. Reasonable endeavours include offering to pay the replacement trustee\u2019s reasonable fees and expenses. If it is impractical or difficult to appoint a replacement trustee, the court may assist. Public Trust may then be appointed as a replacement trustee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe requirement on the retiring trustee does not end there. If the trust cannot cover Public Trust\u2019s reasonable fees and expenses, the retiring trustee must do so itself. These changes place an appropriate responsibility on the retiring securities trustee. The trustee of last resort should really be the last resort. The retiring trustee should demonstrate that it has made reasonable endeavours to find an alternative trustee, and Public Trust should not have to incur the costs without being compensated for them. The retiring trustee should ensure that Public Trust\u2019s reasonable costs are met in taking on this role. If the trust cannot do so, it is not fair that one licensed trustee that just happens to be owned by the State should have to underwrite the risk that private sector securities trustees take on when they become trustees of finance companies, and for which they have been compensated. This amendment is needed and it is needed now to protect Public Trust from the significant burdens of being required to act as a replacement trustee for retiring securities trustees. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3d24bdf3ee4dd2abd66ec663fccf0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3d24bdf3ee4dd2abd66ec663fccf0f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Opposition will support the first reading of this bill, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, and will be interested in explanations from other Ministers and those who are supporting the bill. I do not think there is any doubt around the principle of the bill. The fact is that currently the Public Trust looks like it is the designated receiver of hospital passes, in a rugby sense. If there is something going badly wrong and there is going to be a loss involved, toss it to the Public Trust, because it will carry it. I think it probably comes from the days of thinking that when there is a problem, give it to the Government. The private sector, especially people involved in this sort of industry\u2014and we saw it in South Canterbury Finance and a number of other places\u2014thinks that if something makes a profit, it is capital, and if it makes a loss, let us socialise it and get the Government to pay for it. I think the Public Trust was treated as that sort of organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI have had a lot to do with the Public Trust over many years. I used to get involved in delivering scripts to it when I still had short pants on. I think it is seen as an organisation that is upright and has integrity and should not be placed at risk of having to demand some sort of Government support as a result of the activities of organisations that have made a lot of money out of being trustees and have basically sucked organisations dry. When they work out that the cash flow is likely to stop, they then seek to offload to what is seen to be a public organisation. I think that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister of Justice and for others goes to process and the necessity of using urgency to pass this bill. I mean, I think the Minister does make a good point. She does not want to open the floodgates to similar organisations passing off their responsibilities as they see the gate closing. But my question to the Minister\u2014and it goes to our support of this bill at its later stages\u2014is for her to give a good explanation as to why an alternative approach could not have been taken. I know that she is deeply involved in important conversations, but as the length of the sitting time of the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ee146b2564047fba08fa1f71ea38c37\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784abae5b1174f279a680f53a47613fe\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the question I have got for the Minster is why she did not include in this bill an effective date of today for the shutting off of the gate, and then send it to a select committee to make sure that there were not any unforeseen circumstances, so that we knew exactly what we were doing, so that the other organisations that she is seeking to shut out would have the opportunity to have their say, and so that we could also make sure, by getting the Law Society and others involved, that we had the legislation absolutely right. Doing that\u2014shutting the gate as at an effective date and maybe sending it off for a shortened period to a select committee and giving people the chance to have their say\u2014in my opinion, would have made Parliament look better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt would have meant that we had not rammed things through under urgency. It would have meant that the public could look at the process, but we could have had the gate shut, because the effective date could have been, well, probably today. It would have been appropriate for it to be 9 May, rather than 8 May. That is the date on the wall, but 9 May is the day of the introduction of the bill. In fact, if the bill was tabled yesterday, we could still have had the date of 8 May in the legislation as being the effective date. People know that the principle of retrospectivity does not apply when notice is properly given on the introduction of a bill. It would have been retrospective in effect in its coming into force, but not retrospective in that people would have been aware of it coming into force from the date of its introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI know that it is, you know, relatively finely tuned. I know that it is certainly easier for the Government to ram it through like this. It gets it out of the way some time\u2014you know, 10 o\u2019clock tonight, or something like that, the law will be changed, it will go off to the Governor-General and will get signed tomorrow, and that is the effect of all of that. But the question that I would like to get answered is whether the Government considered the alternative approach, especially given the lack of consultation, which is apparent from the regulatory impact statement\u2014the fact that people who are affected by it have not been consulted. We know why they were not consulted, because they could have shot in and lodged their papers\u2014I understand that. But given the opportunity of having the select committee process to give the Government some consultation at that point but not to open the door to others, why did the Government not take that approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef467ab78d84489cb77276ca2a46f6c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef467ab78d84489cb77276ca2a46f6c6\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise in support of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. The Public Trust, of course, plays a very important role, and it has done so since its inception back in 1873. I am delighted to hear that the Hon Trevor Mallard is endorsing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6081407a85f422a82da39a61b10ddac\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: Was he there then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09c12ca694c4a21bc18e47031d392bf\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, he was not there then, but he was not far from it. I am delighted that he is endorsing the bill through its first reading. That is welcome because I think, as further speakers and I go through this debate, that we will be able to answer his questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Public Trust is the only Crown-owned trustee serving the corporate and business market in New Zealand, and it is the largest trustee organisation in New Zealand. It is, of course, best known for services that it provides around wills and estates and administration, as well as the work it does for New Zealanders around legal, financial, investment, home loans, conveyancing, and estate protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill do? Well, it will close a loophole to the principal Act, the Trustee Act 1956. In particular, this bill will clarify the process for appointing a replacement securities trustee for financial products regulated by the Securities Act 1978. The bill will shield the Public Trust from wearing the costs of having to step in and replace trustees of failed finance companies. Currently, trustees can apply to the High Court and have the Public Trust replace them without any agreement by the Public Trust itself. Doing so exposes the Public Trust to the costs and risks of sorting out these trustees\u2019 tangled, failed financial affairs, all on the tab of the long-suffering taxpayer, via the Public Trust. So with 60 failed finance companies currently in receivership, liquidation, or moratorium, the potential exposure for the taxpayer is simply unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Hon Trevor Mallard asked why we should adopt this process. The reason is quite simple. It is that this bill provides an interim solution until the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, which is currently before the House, is enacted and comes into force. The Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill makes it clear that if the court appoints the Public Trust as the trustee of last resort for securities offered to the public, then retiring trustees must indemnify the Public Trust for its reasonable fees and expenses. This ensures that the Public Trust\u2019s fees and expenses will be met by the retiring trustee if the trust cannot cover them itself. That seems to me to be eminently sensible and worthy of this House\u2019s support, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00221cde248fc2f7419f9fd63a3417469cf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cde248fc2f7419f9fd63a3417469cf1\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call on the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. I can say this of the bill: we are supportive of the policy behind the bill, and we will support the bill. I think the policy is a very sound one, that if the Public Trust is to be called upon as the trustee of last resort, in the case of collapsed finance companies or collapsing finance companies, it is only correct that when the retiring trustees who wish to wash their hands of their responsibilities are looking for an alternative, they should be required to have used their reasonable endeavours to look for an alternative other than the Public Trust. Then, if in an application to the High Court the Public Trust is the only one left standing, the Public Trust should be reimbursed or at least indemnified for the cost of taking on that responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe truth, certainly in relation to finance companies, is that we are talking about corporate trustees. They are there in the good times, and they charge fees and generate an income while the finance company is doing its best to take money and lend it. They may have whatever care or regard for the investors and depositors with them; they are quite happy to be there at that time and fleece the finance company and its depositors and creditors. But when it all gets too hard, they want to flick responsibility and wash their hands of it. So I commend the Minister of Justice for adopting that policy and taking that approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe question remains, however, as to why this bill has to be considered under urgency. There are two principal reasons. One is that the issue that underpins this bill is not new. The finance companies have been collapsing since 2008. The risk of an application to the High Court to nominate the Public Trust or appoint the Public Trust as a securities trustee for a failing finance company has been there at least since 2008. A question obviously arises as to why the Ministry of Justice, the other appropriate authorities, or, indeed, the Minister herself or her predecessor have not seen the risk and sought to move on it earlier. In that regard we have the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, which is under way. In any event, if it is passed, it is not intended to take effect until next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E But this is not a new issue; it has been around. What we have is one application to the High Court by Perpetual Trust, to appoint the Public Trust as a trustee for Capital \u002B Merchant Finance. The other policy aspect is, of course, that if this bill should be passed, if the Public Trust is appointed, then the risk of loss to the Public Trust is mitigated by the indemnity. That, however, will not apply in the case of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance and Perpetual Trust, because the bill does not seek to be retrospective. That application has been with the court. It is due to be heard in a few weeks\u2019 time. So any appointment of the Public Trust by the court cannot or will not take effect under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing about that is\u2014and I have said this before about some of the personalities behind Capital \u002B Merchant Finance\u2014that one of them is Trevor Janes, who was a director of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance. Many directors, in fact all the directors, of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance have been the subject if not of prosecutions by the Serious Fraud Office\u2014and by that I mean successful prosecutions by the Serious Fraud Office\u2014then of civil action by the Financial Markets Authority. The one director who has escaped attention, for reasons that no one can understand and for reasons that have never been given, is Trevor Janes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing about Trevor Janes is that he is a favoured appointee of this Government. He was most recently appointed to the board of none other than ACC by the present Minister of Justice when she was Minister for ACC\u2014she still is the Minister for ACC\u2014as a consequence of the clean-out of that board following its crisis last year. Of course, not only was he appointed to the board of ACC but he was made its deputy chair and the chair of the investment committee. He was a director of a failed finance company, a finance company whose other directors have been the subject of prosecutions by the Serious Fraud Office and civil action by the Financial Markets Authority, who found himself excluded from those actions and appointed by this Government to the board of ACC and as the chair of its investment committee. In the words of that great English comedienne Catherine Tate, I say: \u201CWhat a liberty. What a liberty.\u201D that that should happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e7b1a2adedb4ee3936f99fa8f2262e3\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Give us the full version.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d338adee1644f55b2e95f3414c9453b\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: There is another word in that phrase, but I understand that it is considered to be unparliamentary, so I will not use it. But I simply say: \u201CWhat a liberty.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb96a854a6484572a086b3b8cd88dd84\u0022\u003EScott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It has something to do with ducks\u2014something to do with ducks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ce89f8722a24572952ea1f309fdbd71\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It might do. It might rhyme with it. I am not quite sure. It is a derivative of a word used, I think, by Aaron Gilmore not two weekends ago. But the point is that Capital \u002B Merchant Finance and Perpetual Trust, which was trying to absolve itself of any further responsibility for Capital \u002B Merchant Finance, will not have this bill applied to them. They have escaped the net. And it is only after they had escaped the net that the Minister, the same Minister who appointed Trevor Janes, a former director of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance, should seek to act under urgency to pass this legislation. I just go back to what the Hon Trevor Mallard said. That is not necessary. There is already legislation being considered by this House that would cover this situation, and that is good. As I say, the underlying policy is good, but this could have been dealt with in a way that could have allowed proper and full consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is interesting seeing the regulatory impact statement on this bill. It became available to us mere mortals in the Opposition only today. It is interesting seeing the regulatory impact statement, because it refers to the limited amount of time the Ministry of Justice has had to consider the matter. It says that it has not been able to fully develop even one of the options that it was considering. It talks about the inability to consult with other trustees who will be affected by the proposed options, and it talks about the inability to consult, because of the litigation presently in the High Court. It talks about the lack of information about the financial implications of each of the options it was asked to consider before giving its report on this bill, and notes that the Public Trust has had no experience up to now of acting as a trustee for a failed finance company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E These are matters upon which there should have been proper evidence given to a select committee. These are matters upon which there should have been proper and considered deliberation by members of this House. Because of urgency we will not have that, so we are flying blind. Not a blind trust, of course, but we are flying blind on this particular issue. That is a matter of concern when the issue could have been dealt with by simply saying in a bill that it will take effect from a particular given date, so that should legal proceedings by other failed finance companies and their trustees follow there was then a clear signal and a clear warning that their legal action would be affected by the legislation before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2b72f59c5a84de6ac722d8727f0990b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It has been done before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf6208ff30a404eb9216f6183620aed\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It has been done before, my colleague Lianne Dalziel tells me. So there is no need for urgency. All stages of this Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill are expected to be passed now under this urgency motion. We will not have the benefit of considered evidence from experts and those experienced in the field. We are in that position because of dilatoriness on the part of either the ministry or the Minister of Justice, and/or her predecessor, and we are simply no better off. This is not good lawmaking. We are in the unnecessary position of having to consider this legislation under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo although we will support the bill, and we support the policy and the direction it is taking it in, we do not support the process. The Minister is deserving of the harshest of criticism for adopting this process in this particular way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbc5043274b4162a5cbe32458a65842\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e67011b41f44ccf9e30b5797cf195ba\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: She can laugh and giggle. She is looking after her mate Trevor Janes, as she has done all the way along, by appointing him to statutory roles. Of course, her track record in statutory appointments this year alone is not a very good one, but she has made it worse. She has exacerbated it by the passage of this legislation, which was totally unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002264d9c2a1376e41b0b7fba5387edc7194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264d9c2a1376e41b0b7fba5387edc7194\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of the Green Party on the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. The Green Party saw a copy of this bill only very late in the day on Tuesday. Today is the first day that I have had a chance to look at the regulatory impact statement, and I would not say that I have had enough time to look at it thoroughly. As Andrew Little mentioned earlier, even in the regulatory impact statement it says that officials have not had the opportunity to fully evaluate all the options they would have liked to deal with the problem that has arisen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will be supporting the bill because we agree that there is a problem. We do think it is very important to protect the Public Trust from unforeseen financial liabilities that would arise from being appointed as a trustee of last resort for failed finance companies. However, I have to agree with Andrew Little in saying that the process being adopted by the Government to put this bill through under urgency does not allow us to fully scrutinise and evaluate all the options. It is unclear to me at this point that the option that has been chosen and put forward in this bill is actually the best option for dealing with the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is a very serious and significant question as to why the Government was not aware that this could become a problem until Capital \u002B Merchant Finance applied to the High Court for the Public Trust to be appointed as a replacement trustee for Perpetual Trust. Why did it not realise that this was going to be a problem, when the failure of finance companies has been going on for a number of years now? There is a huge number\u201460 failed finance companies, as the Minister of Justice referred to, and Perpetual Trust is a corporate trustee for 22 of these companies. I would have thought that it would be obvious that there would be a danger of something like this arising and the Public Trust suddenly having to become the trustee of last resort for companies that simply have not taken responsibility for their own risks and no longer have the money or resources available to handle all of the costs that are incurred as a result of their poor decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is really important when dealing with the types of failures that we have seen coming out of the financial crisis that the public sector and Crown-owned entities are protected from having to bail out, or otherwise incur financial liability for decisions that were made by, the private sector\u2014decisions that made some people a whole lot of money in the short term but now have resulted actually in a destruction of wealth. It is really important that the public sector is not stuck with that risk and forced to pick up the tab.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe constantly hear from this Government that it is important to support the private sector and to support private business. That sort of model can work only if the risk is fully borne by the private sector and not the public sector when bad decisions are made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOn the one hand we hear arguments that the public sector should not be putting money and investment into those who are the worst off and into public infrastructure that everyone can benefit from, and the Government is looking for every opportunity to get private sector capital involved in what really should be public infrastructure projects like prisons, schools, and transport projects. It wants to get private sector capital involved not because there will be a cost saving to the taxpayer and not because there will be a benefit to the economy but because it simply guarantees a return for private investors over the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAs we have seen, the private sector has provided fewer and fewer opportunities for low-risk long-term sustained growth and returns. Now the private sector is looking for every opportunity to secure assurances that it will get returns on what are actually opportunities where the public is going to end up taking the risk and the private sector gets to benefit from it taking that risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is very happy to see that the Government is willing to take some steps to protect the Public Trust from financial liabilities incurred from these developments with the failed finance companies, but we remain unconvinced that this is the best process that could have been taken in order to ensure that we do have a robust protection for the Public Trust. It remains to be seen whether this will indeed solve the problem. We will just have to wait and see. Until then the Green Party will be supporting the bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022e95afc98173b4e20bdd7ba903b253fc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e95afc98173b4e20bdd7ba903b253fc8\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Public Trust has been looking after the interests of New Zealanders since 1873. It is a Crown entity that is New Zealand\u2019s largest trustee organisation, and it provides for wills, estates, and administration services, as well as services around legal matters, financial matters, investment, trusts, and home loans. The intent of this bill, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, is really to close a loophole to ensure that the Public Trust does not bear the financial burden of acting as a trustee for products regulated by the Securities Act if an existing trustee seeks to retire and apply to the court to have the Public Trust appointed in its place. In particular, the main provision of the bill makes it clear that if the court appoints the Public Trust as a trustee of last resort for securities offered to the public, the retiring trustee must indemnify the Public Trust for its reasonable fees and expenses. This, in turn, will ensure that the Public Trust\u2019s fees and expenses will be met by retiring trustees if the trustee cannot cover them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that has wide support across the parties. It is a good bill. It is small and technical in its intent, but it definitely does serve a purpose for the wider part of New Zealand as well. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u002223bdda1ad3674c96aab115e81c34d427\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223bdda1ad3674c96aab115e81c34d427\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. We also will be supporting this bill. So it is being supported completely across the whole of the House, which is a good thing. We have said in the past that New Zealand First will support good Government policy but oppose poor policy. In this case we believe this is good policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe bill ties up and sorts out some loopholes to ensure that this taxpayer-supported entity, the Public Trust, is not exposed in any way. That is a good thing. It ensures that there are more safeguards to ensure that the public interest is put at the top of the list in terms of making sure that nothing untoward would happen to the Public Trust if something rebounded on it. This bill achieves that. It is only a very small, technical bill. It is very much an administrative matter in that respect. It clarifies a situation and improves a situation that otherwise would have left the Public Trust, perhaps, exposed. In that respect New Zealand First will be supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82bf9c50dc54cb2a8c7a9ec682617fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82bf9c50dc54cb2a8c7a9ec682617fc\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a very short call to support the first reading of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. It has been very elegantly and efficiently described by the Minister of Justice earlier. There is not really much we need to do to elaborate on that. I would just like to say, though, in terms of process, that I am not sure that there is any alternative if we are to avoid a queue of section 46 applications at the courtroom door. The Public Trust does not have a choice. It is only fair and reasonable that this loophole is closed. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002270d7b3b4bf2d40bdbeda76ba0eed2ab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270d7b3b4bf2d40bdbeda76ba0eed2ab9\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I have read the regulatory impact statement for this bill, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, and I think that it is important to refer to it. It does traverse the history of the legislation. The legislation is doing something in this particular instance for which it was not originally intended. Originally, it was intended to ensure that private trusts would not fail through the lack of a replacement trustee, and I guess as we have moved into a modern environment, with securities now having trustee appointments, the potential for what has actually occurred in this one instance has, in fact, arisen. I think it is appropriate for the Government to act to cut it off at that point. So we are in agreement on this side of the House in respect of the intent of the legislation and the fact that it would apply from today\u2019s date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut there are two different ways that you can make legislation apply from today\u2019s date. One is to do what the Government is doing, and that is to pass it under urgency through all of its stages, without the benefit of a select committee hearing, without advice from the Law Society, and without advice from any trustee company. In fact, the trustee companies could not be consulted on this bill when it was being developed, because, of course, of the conflict of interest and the fact that it would alert those companies to the fact that the Government was going to do precisely this. So I actually think that the second option would have been the preferred way to go, given those limitations, and that was to announce that today would be the operative date for the legislation\u2014that it would come into effect from today, even though it would be passed in a fortnight\u2019s time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI, like everyone else, would rather see the certainty of having the time-scale truncated, but I, for one, would always prefer to hear what the Law Society has to say in a considered submission to a select committee, and then have the officials respond to that and provide the committee with advice. Maybe it would have been more than a couple of weeks, but with the date in concrete, that would have prevented any other application being filed, because at the simple transition point\u2014and I can see Kate Wilkinson is shaking her head, but the transition clause could simply say that any case filed after today\u2019s date would not have the benefit of the application of that particular provision. So with a good deal of working through these issues, I honestly think we could have come to the best of all worlds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe only thing that just concerns me is that we are now going to substitute that select committee process with a Committee stage where we will ask questions about amending the wording of section 46 of the principal Act. I guess that one of the questions that I will be wanting to know the answer to is whether this is the same provision that is due to come into effect with the provisions of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, which I understand the Government hopes to have passed by June and have come into effect later on. If that is the case, I mean, that would be incredibly useful information, but, on the face of it, it does not seem to me to explain whether this is, in fact, the wording that has been taken out of there. I do not know. So there is detailed stuff that I would like to know, because the last thing that we would want to do when we are addressing the unintended consequence of perfectly good legislation, which has just become outdated because of the circumstances that we now find ourselves in, is to create the potential for another unintended consequence down the track if we have not got the wording quite right. It is very difficult to amend these things. Obviously, it is much easier to amend these things with a select committee process. So I agree with my colleague Andrew Little that this is very much a case where we are on all fours with the Government in terms of policy\u2014the outcome that we want to achieve\u2014but we are not entirely happy with this process because it just brings such risks with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe last thing that I just wanted to comment on was the finance company failures, which actually led us to this position today. I just want to make this point. I have given the odd speech in the past, because I was the Minister of Commerce at the time that the original finance companies started their cascading effect into failure. The point was often made that the finance companies were not regulated. That actually is not correct. The finance companies were under-regulated. The supervisory role of the trustee was what was supposed to protect the investors from what actually happened. I want to remind this House that when Neville Harris reported to the select committee that I chaired, after the fact, he said at the time that at least 25 of the failed companies at that point had used just two trustee companies: Perpetual Trust and Covenant Trustee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that we actually have to think long and hard about how we let that area, which was supposed to exist as a regulatory protection for investors, so utterly fail in this particular instance. I do want to place on record again my absolute concern for those who lost a substantial amount of money in all of those company failures. There were people out there who had roles that were supposed to act towards protecting those investors\u2019 interests, and they simply failed to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022987217c8dbbc4016b768a47545cebe19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022987217c8dbbc4016b768a47545cebe19\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak to the first reading of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. It is an interim bill and it amends the Trustee Act 1956. It closes a loophole, as we have heard, to ensure that the Public Trust does not bear the financial burden of wearing the costs of having to step in to replace trustees of failed finance companies. This is an urgent bill. We have heard that there are potentially 60 failed finance companies that are seeking to have the Public Trust appointed as the trustee of last resort. It is unacceptable that the taxpayer has to, in effect, pay the bill for that. It is a good bill. I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022403ccfb8ea794c95afd50ea3bf4161a8\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002275b20f2eee754560b6709bbe75d52d2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275b20f2eee754560b6709bbe75d52d2e\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a split call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022251b8003211940c7ab6addd580db4918\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, a split call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7081272d3e4f73994402c3f0484e28\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. Clare Curran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f29f7dcc4ba492593fc4d7cc59a1fa6\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going to be short, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f869e06c7c0d4c2bb9e35318aaa3bbbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f869e06c7c0d4c2bb9e35318aaa3bbbd\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Short. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you, \u201CMr Whip\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ebdca2a55149b7be7b0133a8627712\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You have the call\u2014proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d19649bb10f74a279759b031d67340dc\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have the call, Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you. I would just like to make a few comments about this bill, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, which Labour is supporting. As you know, this amendment in front of us is not absurd. It is not preposterous. It is a sensible move, and it is something that we think is basic, common sense. Labour supports this bill. As you know, it is necessary and logical in its provision to ensure a comprehensive trustee policy agenda. I do not really want to go too much into the substance of it other than to say those things, but I also want to talk about the importance of the regulatory impact statement when tabling a bill in the House and introducing it in the House and ensuring that it accompanies a bill into the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAlthough this bill cements the endowment that turning to the Public Trust must be seen as a last resort when seeking to retire, there is the financial burden of finding a replacement, which has grown exponentially as trusteeship becomes increasingly focused and complex. Those things are absolutely important, but we have had\u2014is it five new bills introduced into the House in the last 2 days? How many of those bills have been accompanied by a regulatory impact statement? What\u2014[Interruption] How many? What is the importance of the regulatory impact statement? Why is it so important? In relation to this particular bill, there was a regulatory impact statement introduced within just hours, maybe 24 hours, around the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228dbc000bf164ce499538e84c412ccab\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5e9e7f8bb034ab09f139f9773d1b24d\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: Today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221553f45d0b3949a888dc260a580c3d30\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a157f9c9ff84e52a4b63bdbced6134a\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: Today, which\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b391977af9743f2b4c5e9c23ff5ef32\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The time has come for the dinner adjournment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274eebd2d323c4cf786df988db868047b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. Kia ora t\u0101tou, n\u014D reira e te Whare, e ng\u0101 iwi, e ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Prior to the House suspending at 6 o\u2019clock for the dinner break, the honourable member Clare Curran was addressing us with her dulcet tones. She has 7 minutes and 40 seconds remaining to speak. Does she seek the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae5ca1f33114ca0bdca9d04e068fc4c\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It is lovely to be in the House listening to your dulcet tones. As I was saying before the dinner break, Labour supports this bill. Labour supports the underlying policy behind this bill, but the Government, on the other side, has failed in a number of ways. First of all, it has failed to provide an adequate assessment to justify why this bill should be put through under urgency, and, second, it has failed, as it has failed on a number of other bills that have been before this House this week, to provide adequate regulatory impact assessment and to provide time for the Opposition and the public to have discussions and consideration around these bills before they are actually brought before the House for debate. This bill\u2019s regulatory impact statement, which was prepared by the Ministry of Justice, reflects concerns from the ministry that National\u2019s reactionary approach means an adequate risk assessment has not been conducted, which suggests that the Minister of Justice\u2019s public justifications are mere scaremongering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOn this bill, which we support, there are things to be said, but the fact is that on two other critical pieces of legislation before this House yesterday, particularly\u2014one around the Government Communications Security Bureau and one around our telecommunications networks\u2014no regulatory impact statements were supplied at all. None. That meant that there was no ability to get any sort of independent assessment that had been prepared by officials before those bills were brought to the House. One of them is being rushed through with a truncated select committee process, which we have said is a travesty of process and is a very strong indication of an authoritarian approach to running the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIn this particular case the Minister\u2019s public justification, as I have said, could be mere scaremongering in an attempt to gain support. The regulatory impact statement states that the nature and rigour of the analysis has been affected by the limited amount of time. This is fact. This is written down in the regulatory impact statement. Further, it expresses concern that because the ministry has not consulted with trustees who will be affected by the bill, the risk of further applications to the High Court has not been quantified. As we heard earlier, I think the regulatory impact statement was produced yesterday or today\u2014anyway, in a very short amount of time. That has minimised the length of time for Opposition parties to scrutinise the Government\u2019s policy rationale for this bill. This is a trend. It is a trend that this Government has, I suppose we could say, set in stone now. It is a trend that is being extended through other ways of withholding information, blocking information, and obfuscating the Opposition\u2019s and the public\u2019s ability to access information through the Official Information Act and through other mechanisms. It is a trend, as I have said, that is towards a much more authoritarian way of running the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a9c11544ed0446abd2f130f333a5c22\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00221a4c0d3394284163ab2c882198fc3ab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a4c0d3394284163ab2c882198fc3ab2\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. Since the House is in urgency, I do not wish to take too much time, but there have been some issues raised by members opposite and I think that they deserve to be answered. For a start, I do not know why Ms Curran asked whether or not I was rushing the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill through for some reason. Well, yes, the reason is very much is that I want to save the Public Trust, actually. I am not going to stand by, and I do not think Parliament wants us to stand by, and let it be basically the taxpayer having to pay absolutely millions of dollars out to fund the Public Trust to take on public responsibilities around trusteeships when this was never ever intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe question was asked tonight why this was not done before. Well, actually, in the 114 years that the provision has been in the law for the Public Trust to be a trustee of last resort\u2014in 114 years\u2014nobody has ever before sought to make the Public Trust the trustee of last resort for a corporate trustee failure. That is why. It has never been done before. Nobody ever thought this could be done, and certainly in Parliament no Minister of Justice thought that\u2014in fact, that is why. As for the situation of why now, it is actually because the advice is we cannot risk it. We cannot risk it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe case that has brought this to a head is the Capital \u002B Merchant Finance case, which is actually due to be heard in the High Court on 6 June. Of course, this bill does not purport to apply to that case. I think that would be unfair. It has been in the court for some time. But the advice that I have been given is that we cannot risk it. Of course, what has really happened in this case as well, which may not have been disclosed by me yet in the first reading, is that the receivers of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance have sought to bring in and to hold to account the corporate trustees. That has therefore allowed the corporate trustees to say that actually, strictly according to law, and rightly, they have a conflict of interest, and therefore cannot retain the trusteeship of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance. So the action from the receivers\u2014and I am not criticising them for it, they are entitled to do that under the law\u2014is something we have never seen before, actually, in 114 years\u2014so even longer, Mr Assistant Speaker, than you have been at this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610ff74cdb854f608d60dcba83bf954d\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Only just. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198744d0493142a2bfd2513007e7e414\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Only just, says Mr Hipkins. In addition, there have been some questions raised about\u2014and I would say too that the Perpetual Trust, which is clearly not that perpetual after this behaviour, has 22 other failed finance companies that it is currently corporate trustee for. We are looking, in that case, at 22 companies, and there are actually 60 failed finance companies that this could well apply to across the board, including those 22. So this is not a risk that I as the Minister of Justice believe is one that we can take, to sit back and wait to see whether this test case that is before the court is successful. It might be; it might not be. I cannot risk it, and I do not think the Public Trust can risk it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAn issue has been raised, I think particularly by the Green member who spoke, as to whether or not this matter could be dealt with in some other way, whether or not we could have a select committee process. Because of the nature of what we are talking about, proceedings could be filed pretty quickly, particularly by a company or lawyers who are currently before the court right now on a similar matter. So I am not really prepared to allow this to go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe could possibly, as Mr Mallard suggested, take some moves, saying it could go to a select committee and then come back and then have the effect of it backdated. I think whatever we do in this matter we would be subject to criticism, be it either of a retrospective nature or the fact that we are moving to have this through in urgency. Whatever we do, we are going to be criticised, but I am not prepared to stand back and let this happen, and do nothing about it and then say \u201CWoe is me!\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E But in addition to that we also have\u2014and this is, I think, the saver for those who are so worried about process\u2014the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, which is currently before Parliament. That bill is expected to be enacted in a few months\u2019 time, but it does not come into force until 1 April 2014. The Supplementary Order Paper to the Financial Markets Conduct Bill will provide a longer-term solution by permitting the Financial Markets Authority, or the FMA, to appoint a replacement trustee from amongst all available licensed trustees, so that the Public Trust is treated equitably, and to require an indemnity from the resigning trustee as a precondition of the appointment. This provides the longer-term solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI make no bones about it: this is a stop-gap measure, but it is one that we need to have in force. When the Financial Markets Conduct Bill comes through and takes effect from April next year, should it be passed by this Parliament, then that will in fact supersede what we are doing this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would also like to take the opportunity just briefly to thank all parties for their support for this bill. I understand it is a very difficult situation, but I am sure everyone here understands this is something that needs to happen. It is not the ideal situation but, frankly, we have not been served up an ideal set of facts, so thank you everybody. I know everyone has some concerns about some aspects in terms of process, but I hope that you understand and respect the fact that there is the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and that will, in fact, take over from this provision. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00226c0457f4288e4399a06bc140b5464433\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c0457f4288e4399a06bc140b5464433\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to take another call on the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. I want to take issue with some of the points made by the Hon Judith Collins in her last address and simply say that I am afraid that what was news in Ms Collins\u2019 presentation was that the application by Perpetual Trust to the High Court has been in court for some time, because that undermines the case for urgency. We know that the application is there, we know that it has been prompted by the challenge that Perpetual Trust faces from the receivers, and that is entirely appropriate. Hopefully, that piece of litigation will be a trendsetter, because for far too long we have had trustees of finance companies who have been quite happy to clip the ticket and earn their fees, but when everything turns to custard, they are nowhere to be seen. So I congratulate the receiver, certainly, on challenging the trustees, because, hopefully, it is litigation like that that will start to lift the standard of those trustees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut that litigation, as the Minister of Justice has said, has been on foot for some time. So why has her ministry, or why has she, not taken action before now? Suddenly we are presented with this impending crisis, because we are 4 weeks out from the actual trial and the application being heard in the High Court. Why has not action been taken before now? I think the fact that that application and those proceedings have been on foot for some time illustrates the point that we are making that urgency is not justified. Those proceedings have been on foot for some time in relation to a trustee company that is the trustee for 22 other failed companies about which no proceedings have been issued. So where is the urgency? There is only one case, and had this legislation proceeded in the proper way, with a date in it from which its jurisdiction would take effect, then we would have had the benefit of a proper process, proper scrutiny, and, most important, the input of those in the sector\u2014those experts, the professionals who are routinely dealing with this\u2014so that we could fully understand the risks. Even the Ministry of Justice, in its regulatory impact statement, cannot tell us what the full risks are. It has not had time. It has not had time to engage with the professionals, it has not had time to talk to others, so we simply do not know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Minister is entitled to credit for taking an approach on the issue that is, at least from our point of view, a good approach. It is fair, it is proper, and it mitigates the risk for the Public Trust and therefore for the public purse and the public interest. It seeks to impose the cost where it properly belongs, and that is on the periphery of the finance sector. That is quite correct; that is proper. But our job, when we stand here, and the Crown\u2019s job, when Government members sit over there, is to protect the public purse to the best extent. Our job as a Parliament is to protect the public interest to the best extent. But we cannot properly do that until we hear from those who have an interest in this legislation\u2014those who have a stake in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat is the reason we have the sorts of processes and procedures that we do. That is the reason we claim to be democratic when we have select committees and we have input. Even in truncated select committee processes, where we might invite just a select few who the parties can agree might have something useful to say over a couple of weeks\u2014even a truncated select committee process would be of some benefit and of some help to us. But that is not what we have got. We have got panic reaction, knee-jerk reaction, and the claim that the floodgates will open when there is no evidence of that happening at all\u2014and when there are other means to mitigate the floodgate argument\u2014but we are rushed into a panic action and we have no means of knowing whether what we are doing is proper or fair, or whether, indeed, we have taken account of all the risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is the problem. This is the problem that we face and that is the reason why, notwithstanding that we support the policy of the bill and we will support it, we do not wish to let it go by without putting firmly and squarely on the record our concern and our objection to the process that is being followed. It is simply unnecessary\u2014it is simply unnecessary. We do not want to be faced with this again when there is some other unforeseen litigation happening in that sector and a Minister gets panicked and the whole House is thrown into urgency and rushed into this, and we do not have the benefit of full and proper and considered scrutiny, which is our job, which is our duty as public servants to the nation. We have considerable anxiety about that and we received no assurance in the words of the Minister and the explanations, such as she has given, that this is necessary because of present circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe circumstances, as we see them, are not as drastic as she makes out. There is one case, one piece of litigation, which has been on foot for some time, against a company that is the trustee for 22 other failed finance companies; no evidence or indication that there are 22 other proceedings in the wings, or, indeed, have been filed; and no indication that of the other 38 failed finance companies and their trustees there is litigation pending in relation to them. So we do not buy the argument that this is time for panic. To the contrary, even if this is a stopgap measure, even if we still have the Financial Markets Conduct Bill to come, this is not a reason not to give proper and due consideration to the full circumstances and the full issues surrounding this bill and what it is trying to address. It is important that we get that on the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EPerhaps this can be a plea, a public plea to this Minister\u2014and, frankly, unfortunately, and regrettably, most that she touches tends to turn to custard\u2014to let us not be put in this position again. It is not good for Parliament and its standing and the public respect\u2014or the respect that the public ought to have of it, although, of course, that has been sorely tested because of members on that side of the House in the last couple of days anyway. Let us not be put in the position where we are compelled because of the power of the Government of the day to have to rush through legislation without full consideration of its implications and ramifications. That is our issue. Perpetual Trust is the only trustee company facing litigation. It is in relation to one failed finance company\u2014a finance company clearly well-known to the Minister because she knows at least one of its directors, because she keeps appointing him to things. But no other trustee company appears to be caught up in the same net, so we do not see the need for urgency and we think that considering this under urgency, all stages within a matter of hours, is a highly improper use of that procedure, of this House, of the members of this House, and of the reputation of this House to act properly and democratically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d75b8f9899c043bc8d43fc598128d000\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d75b8f9899c043bc8d43fc598128d000\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak in the second reading of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. There is a need for urgency for this bill, and the urgency that is required is to protect the public purse from flagrant abuse by negligent trustees who absolve themselves from their responsibilities financial and try to shaft those responsibilities on to the long-suffering and hard-working taxpayer. So there is a need for urgency. This is simply a prudent measure taken on behalf of a careful, thoughtful, and understanding Minister who has taken the initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI can just hear the Labour Party now moaning, whinging, and bleating if this bill had not been taken under urgency and we had a queue of trustees absolving themselves of their responsibilities and thrusting themselves upon the long-suffering taxpayer. It would be the Labour members then who would be whinging and moaning mercilessly about a lack of active foresight on the part of the Minister of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI am very pleased that she has taken an opportunity to fix this loophole, because the rule allowing the High Court to appoint the Public Trust as a replacement trustee was originally enacted to ensure that family trusts did not fail for lack of a trustee. It was never intended to operate in a commercial situation of the sort that we are seeing before the courts right now. A failed finance company using section 46 of the Trustee Act to save itself was not the intention of that section. If used, it enables securities trustees to walk away from their financial obligations and responsibilities, and that is just not on, on behalf of the New Zealand taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo it is a great pleasure to support this bill, to give it my strongest commendation and recommendation to the House, and also to thank the Minister for her very good and thoughtful foresight in this matter. It is very deserving of the urgency that we are according it this evening. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba93fbe2f7e84c3290ca710afceb7b46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba93fbe2f7e84c3290ca710afceb7b46\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take just a short call on the second reading of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI guess what I would like to respond to are comments that were just made by the Minister of Justice, the Hon Judith Collins, and the member Scott Simpson, who was previously speaking. Obviously the Green Party very much supports the policy direction set by this bill to protect the Public Trust in the case of the abuse of the loophole that exists in what is admittedly a very old piece of legislation. However, I do not feel that we have heard enough about why the urgency is necessary in this particular week, why we were not able to find out about the bill a little bit more in advance, and why the regulatory impact statement lists four limitations\u2014I think there were three or four limitations\u2014on the ability to assess what all the options were and all the different impacts of those options to address the problem that is at hand. So although I thank the Minister for her explanation, the Green Party still has reservations about the process of urgency being used and about the incompleteness of the assessment of options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Minister has stated that it is just a stopgap measure, and I appreciate that. I think we can understand that it is necessary to have a stopgap measure until the Financial Markets Conduct Bill passes into law. It will be interesting also. One of the recommendations of the regulatory impact statement is a longer-term review of the appropriateness of the role of a trustee of last resort, and we will be looking with some curiosity and interest at the Law Commission\u2019s review of the Trustee Act 1956, which is referred to in the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, just to reiterate, the Green Party supports the bill and understands that there is definitely a need for a stopgap measure, but we merely question the process and we wish there had been a little bit more transparency. We hope that this bill does indeed achieve its aims and that other longer-term potential loopholes are able to be addressed as well. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb736787fe1e4080b2ca2cf93d4179d7\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8108490b5a64b11919d925053351dbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8108490b5a64b11919d925053351dbf\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all five clauses of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccbfbc711b60425fa8f9e2940c33a990\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022833ded6ff6ea4319ad4a614768388ced\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022146f1a2a9afb468daca4f587bf30b4e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022146f1a2a9afb468daca4f587bf30b4e3\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak yet again on this important bill, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. Really, I want to take this opportunity just to prevail upon the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Justice, to answer the question that I think has been put in both the first and the second readings, even though we have not had the benefit of closely studying the transcripts of each of those readings. The question does remain of why urgency was taken on this provision, when there are alternative ways that would have allowed appropriate scrutiny of it, and at least have allowed members of the House, if not the officials themselves, through their regulatory impact statement, to take a considered view and hear from the professionals who are routinely dealing with these issues in the field every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe did not need to hear from Perpetual Trust. It clearly is taking its action. Were it not for the urgency, the Minister would stand to be fully, wholly, and unequivocally congratulated on the stance she has taken. It is right that she has taken the view that notwithstanding how unforeseeable it might have been\u2014the Trustee Act might have been used by securities trustees or trustee companies\u2014she should seek to protect the public entity that is being invited to step in as the trustee of last resort. That might never have happened in the 130-odd years of the Public Trust and in the many pieces of governing legislation for that office, but in any event it clearly was a possibility, which is what the lawyer for Perpetual Trust is banking on and is relying on. When you look at the Act, and when you apply the black-letter law of the Act, there is nothing there to exclude a securities trustee. It simply refers to trustees of a trust\u2014of any trust. That particular provision of the 1956 Act is very widely drawn. So it was certainly a possibility on a simple reference to the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe fact that we had a whole swag of failing finance companies from 2008 I would have thought would have prompted someone in the bureaucracy, if not in Cabinet, the executive, to think about the potential risks of just this sort of thing happening. Each of those finance companies was required to have a trustee. The basis on which deposits were to be taken was that there would be a trust sitting over them so that the deposits could not be used for anything other than the purposes for which they were provided or sought. That clearly has been a weak regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn any event, trustees were in place, and there were failing finance companies. I thought it would have been obvious that the trustees were going to be under some pressure. Receiverships have been created and receivers have been appointed since 2008. The issue should have been triggered, at least within that part of the bureaucracy that deals with commercial issues\u2014the old Ministry of Commerce, the old Ministry of Economic Development, now the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. The fact that it took until there were legal proceedings afoot for the bureaucracy to be alerted I think causes us some alarm. But, even then, the proceedings were afoot and it was not noticed until just recently, which has prompted this flurry of activity and urgent action. That is equally alarming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut then when it comes to the executive and the Minister considering what steps to take, I think we are entitled to expect alternatives to urgency to be considered. The question remains for the Minister in the chair to answer the question of what alternatives other than urgency were considered, and why urgency\u2014in the event that other alternatives were considered\u2014was preferred, because there are alternatives that would have preserved the position. Clearly, Perpetual Trust, in relation to its failed trusteeship of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance, is outside the net, and there is a risk to the public purse, at least to the Public Trust and the public purse that it holds. Perpetual Trust is off the hook in that regard, and we want to prevent other finance companies and their trustees from being in the same position. That could have been achieved simply by the draft legislation having a start date and that date being effective once the legislation took effect, even if it was retrospectively. That would have been a fair and appropriate signal to give to potential litigants or those who were considering following the same line as Perpetual Trust. That is the question that needs to be answered, and we eagerly await the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00221b08f82593f049a18886cbf294de84a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b08f82593f049a18886cbf294de84a6\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The question has been raised again about the urgency. I am happy to address it again and hopefully more to the member\u2019s satisfaction. I think there are always options around this, and this is certainly not a step that I have taken lightly. But the advice has come to me in only the last few weeks or so that the situation could become quite serious and that this is not something that we could leave for the normal select committee process. The Committee will be aware that this Government has not taken urgency for some time, which would give an opportunity for this. I would actually think that this bill, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, is exactly the sort of bill that should be going through under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI take on board the concerns that Mr Little has raised about urgency and why we could not just put a start date in that is essentially retrospective to the legislation coming into force. That is absolutely an option, but what we are dealing with here are 60 finance companies, all failed. What is being achieved by that? I would be more inclined to do that, although I am not someone who generally believes in retrospective legislation. For me, that is a very difficult step to promote. I think it inherently has issues, particularly around process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, in this case, I was also given some comfort from the fact that this bill is only a stopgap measure. We do, in fact, have the Financial Markets Conduct Bill coming through the House, through the normal process, and it does not come into effect until April next year, should it be passed by the House. As the Green member Ms Genter raised earlier, will it be in contravention of this bill, or will there be any issues with it? Oh no, I think Ms Dalziel did, sorry. Will it be in contravention of this bill? It will actually replace this bill. So, really, this is very much a stopgap measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIf we were looking at urgency, urgency is often around issues that must be dealt with and certainly in all stages, like excise tax issues, where behaviours will change. I do not think I could trust, frankly, that the lawyers for these failed finance companies, or, rather, the trustee companies, would not charge off to court tomorrow to file proceedings under the existing law if they had the notice. We are not making this law for them; we are actually making this law for the public of New Zealand, the taxpayers and the Public Trust, which has actually done nothing wrong\u2014not a thing. It has not done anything wrong. It was not paid large fees to be corporate trustees. It did not fail in its duty. It did not mislead or do anything wrong. It is an innocent bystander, and, frankly, I do not think that we can risk having it put further to the test when it comes to this sort of litigation that that would ensure. Yes, this is a test case that we are looking at, which is due for hearing on 6 June this year, so we do not have a lot of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EKnowing the legal profession as I do, and with the greatest respect for it, I am sure that there are people right now preparing documents to be filed if this bill does not go through tonight. But I would like to take the opportunity again to thank the Committee for taking such a mature and responsible attitude to this legislation, which is entirely necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b9e5da92c9242c3aff156f47759da44\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002207e1f49445e04b4a860540fef5929878\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207e1f49445e04b4a860540fef5929878\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill has gone through the House under urgency, and it is urgent. This bill provides a quick interim solution to a potential floodgate of expenses for the Public Trust and to the public purse if securities trustees walk away from their responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWithout this amendment, the Public Trust faces a potentially significant financial burden. Capital \u002B Merchant Finance is unlikely to be able to pay Public Trust fees and expenses, so the Public Trust is likely to have to meet the cost itself. However, there are currently 60 finance companies in liquidation, receivership, or moratorium, and if even a fraction of the trustees of those companies attempt to hand their roles to the Public Trust, the cost could be enormous\u2014and, of course, that is not only the case should they be successful; even litigation has its expense, and the Public Trust is not able to continue to fund this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is not only the financial burden. The Public Trust faces damages to its reputation and its brand. It would be responsible for communicating with thousands of dissatisfied investors. They may not appreciate the distinction between a retiring trustee and the Public Trust as replacement trustee. By law we require the Public Trust to be a competitive business, and yet our current law, without amendment, is putting the Public Trust at an unfair disadvantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is all because of one small rule\u2014the trustee of last resort rule. Section 46 of the Trustee Act allows the High Court to appoint the Public Trust as replacement trustee for any trustee who wishes to retire or resign. The Public Trust has a statutory duty to accept the appointment. The rule does not require the retiring trustee to find other replacement trustees first by indemnifying their fees and expenses that the trust or the company being supervised cannot pay. This bill will rectify this. It will require a retiring trustee to make efforts to find another replacement trustee, and to pay the replacement trustee\u2019s reasonable fees and expenses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Public Trust can still be appointed as a last resort trustee. I think that is a very important point. If this happens, the resigning trustee will meet Public Trust\u2019s reasonable fees and expenses as the trustee for the trust in question if the trust or the company being supervised cannot cover them. The bill will only apply to licensed trustee appointments for products regulated by the Securities Act. It will not apply to family trusts. This is only a short-term solution, but it will fix the problem right now. The Financial Markets Conduct Bill will provide a longer-term solution. This bill applies prospectively. It does not affect the Capital \u002B Merchant Finance case; Public Trust will bear this burden. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Government does not want to undermine business confidence in the law by changing the rules midstream and without notice. Instead, the bill will change the rules into the future. It will stop the risk of significant burden being imposed on the Public Trust and it will be doing so in the nick of time, and for that I very much thank this House. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3890112114e444781595d0fba14a959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3890112114e444781595d0fba14a959\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I rise to once again pledge the Labour Party\u2019s support for the bill, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, but to also express our continuing concerns about it. The Minister of Justice says that there are 60 failed finance companies now that are known and recognised. Twenty-two of them had Perpetual Trust as their securities trustee, Perpetual Trust being the trustee company that is presently before the High Court seeking to have Public Trust appointed as the trustee because of the conflict of interest that Perpetual Trust now has as a defendant in litigation by the receivers of Capital \u002B Merchant Finance, for which it was the trustee. If we can get our heads around that string of relationships, life would be a lot easier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the reality is that there is only one application before the court to appoint Public Trust as a securities trustee, and that is the application by Perpetual Trust in relation to Capital \u002B Merchant Finance. None of the 22 other finance companies also having Perpetual Trust as their trustee has any application, and none of the other 38 of the 60 failed finance companies has any application before the court. So let us not overstate the risks and therefore justify urgency, when urgency may not be justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EPutting aside the aspect of urgency, we do accept that, as a matter of good public policy, protecting Public Trust in relation to these applications is a good idea. Trustee companies are the very ones that are quite happy to clip the ticket and watch the lucre rolling in during the good times, and then when it gets too hard, when the finance companies are up against it, when the borrowers they have lent money to fail to repay their loans, and when the depositors are demanding their capital back, they are the first ones to try to get off the scene and absolve themselves of responsibility. If they find, as a little trick, they can now get Public Trust to step in, and therefore the public purse and the State to step in, and protect or shore up the failed private sector\u2014which the private sector is notoriously good at doing\u2014then I agree with the Minister that they will no doubt try to do so. But at this point in time, given all the facts about litigation by Perpetual Trust, we see no impending sign of that. Introducing this Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill with a specified date, so that we could go through a proper process, take advice, talk to the professionals in the field, and understand the true impact of what we are doing and the risk associated with it, would be much more preferable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI would like to think that, if the Minister or any member of this executive is in the same situation in the future, when it comes to a choice between seeking the urgent attention of this House and looking for the alternatives that provide the sort of protection that could be given by specification of a date in this bill and allowing a proper process, the executive and any Minister will always err on the side of a more open and fulsome process. That must be a driving principle when it comes to the management of legislation through this House. No matter how quickly it needs to pass, no matter the issue, and no matter the perceptions about the magnitude and the significance of the issue, we must be assured and the public of New Zealand must be assured that the executive does not take for granted the time of this House, our goodwill, and our ability to provide proper and decent scrutiny of important legislation such as this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe understand the public policy and we hope that that will be translated into a more progressive view about regulation and intervention in the finance markets. The truth is that they have for a long time been the cowboys of our economy, and many of them still remain so. They were allowed to get away with it. We had the financial collapse in 2008. The risks that this bill is addressing have been known since then, but we are still plunged into urgency to address that issue. We simply should not be put in that position. This is a bill, funnily enough, about last resort. It is appointing a trustee of last resort. Well, when it comes to last resort, urgency in this House should be an option of last resort for those who have the responsibility for managing legislation through it. We have to place that on record. That remains a very clear and unequivocal objection that we have, that this House should be treated in that way on matters such as this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe risks that this bill is trying to manage and deal with can be mitigated in other processes that this House typically employs and could have employed in this particular case. We understand the issue about not wanting to expose Public Trust to having to pick up the tab for failing finance companies. The reality is that the very application that is on foot in the High Court presently will not be covered by this bill, so Capital \u002B Merchant Finance once again will find itself off the hook, Perpetual Trust will find itself off the hook, and Public Trust will, no doubt, be put to expense and inconvenience in picking up this role if, indeed, it is appointed by the court as the trustee for Capital \u002B Merchant Finance. That is a cost that will be borne. That one has escaped the net. The public purse will be affected. We have not acted fast enough to prevent that from happening. But there is no evidence of any other proceedings on foot or that could be on foot. The regulatory impact statement acknowledges that it is inadequate, but it also does not advert to any other proceedings on foot. So we simply do not accept that there is that level of risk there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe just want to make the message very clear. We understand the importance of this. We understand the importance of having good regulation around the finance markets. The last Minister of Justice shepherded through legislation in part to achieve that. This Minister of Justice is managing through the Financial Markets Conduct Bill. That will make a difference too. But the question remains whether this particular bill, being dealt with under urgency, is a matter that needs to be dealt with as urgently and as precipitously as it is being dealt with at the moment. That is what we object to. Good parliamentarians should always object to being put upon by the executive in this sort of way. Perhaps backbench members of the party opposite, the party in Government, will, as good and honourable parliamentarians, express the view that they also do not wish to be treated in that sort of way. Urgency, I repeat, ought to be a procedure of last resort, and not a matter of first resort, as it appears to be in this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe will support the bill. We support the underlying policy in the bill. But let us not again be put in the position of dealing with these issues when we have not had the benefit of hearing from others in the sector apart from Perpetual Trust, even the receivers of the various finance companies, others in the finance sector, and, indeed, trustees who have been put in the position of being a trustee of a finance company, on the implications for them. We have not had the benefit of their insights and their experience. That is a dangerous position for us to be in. So we underscore that clearly, we highlight it with the biggest highlighters, and we underscore it with red ink. Please ensure that this House and every member in it is not again put in this position, because it is not good for Parliament, it is not good for parliamentarianism, and it is not good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00226dc311094ff24c91a9ecaf4af2ea447b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dc311094ff24c91a9ecaf4af2ea447b\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. I rise to take a call in this third reading of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. I want to acknowledge the previous speaker, Mr Little. He talked about the honourable backbenchers being in a sense cognisant of their responsibility to be prudent and wise when enacting the political mechanism of urgency. I do agree that it is important that we do this as a matter of last resort. I think we have been cognisant of that. The Minister of Justice has, and has acted prudently and wisely. The reason why we know it is the right thing is that, despite all the talk about concern, at the end of the day there is still support, and the support is right across all parties because there is greater gain to be had than there is risk. I think that is what we are talking about. We have traversed all the key issues around closing the loophole. We have talked about the provisions of the legislation that will protect the public purse. We have also talked about the importance of the concerns from the regulatory impact statement not being such that they have warranted a vehement response or opposition from the parties opposite. Instead, they have noted their concerns but, most important, they will support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThere is much less to be said now. I simply say that we see this as an important bill. I want to acknowledge, firstly, the Minister, who in her wisdom sought to ensure that this would go through in urgency. It is the right move. It is the right thing to do. The New Zealand public will not be upset about this; in fact, they will see this as the right step for us to take. We commend this bill to the House. It is the right thing to do for New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5a4e44aa0b44828b2d303028b9f257e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5a4e44aa0b44828b2d303028b9f257e\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a brief call in this debate under urgency on the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill, in what has been a relatively civilised and dignified debate so far. This being urgency, I object to that, so I thought I would make a brief contribution to this particular debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E I want to pick up on a comment that the Minister of Justice made in her speech when she talked about finance company directors jumping ship and not being held accountable when the companies collapse. That is certainly the public perception, and in many cases people have lost significant amounts of their money\u2014[Interruption] It might have been someone else in the debate, so I might be attributing that comment to the wrong person. OK, it was Andrew Little. I accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b17f690e974a9e807e51930e51e70a\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Little, Judith Collins\u2014it\u2019s an easy mistake to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a602181bd74461ac3f19177f6754f3\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. But, actually, it does stick in the public\u2019s throat. When people invest their money with finance companies, the directors are quite happy to accept that money while the going is good, and then when the proverbial hits the fan, those people take the money and run. They disappear. The people who have lost their savings are left with nothing, while there seem to be very few consequences for the people who have ultimately presided over that failure. That does really stick in the throats of the people at home who are investing in those companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt is not just the finance companies that frustrate people in that area, either; it is regular companies that frustrate people. For example, when a construction company collapses and the directors jump ship immediately before it collapses, and the subbies lose access to their tools and lose all of the payments that they are due\u2014the directors have jumped ship and abandoned them right before that company collapses\u2014that really sticks in people\u2019s throats as well. What is the National Government\u2019s approach to that? Well, it has done absolutely nothing about that. It does not really seem to care about that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222de213302c044e7daba7c5b166797f16\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Half of the directors are members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022367daa8480df4f83b92c12cf5a4e23a4\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because half of the directors are National members. In fact, the National Party\u2019s approach to that is to appoint those directors to State-owned enterprise boards in preparation for the privatisation of those State-owned enterprises. One of the worst examples, of course, is the former Prime Minister Jenny Shipley, who when Mainzeal Property and Construction collapsed, literally hours before it went under, jumped ship. She was quite happy to take the directors\u2019 fee when the going was good, quite happy to have the status of being a director of a big construction company, but the minute the proverbial hit the fan, or actually before the proverbial hit the fan\u2014right before\u2014she jumped ship. She did not want to know about it. She took the money and ran. That is the sort of thing that really, really annoys the New Zealand public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EActually, it is more serious than that. When people take on these responsibilities, that is exactly what they are doing\u2014they are taking on responsibilities. Finance companies, regular companies\u2014it does not matter which they are; if people take on a responsibility and they are willing to accept the directors\u2019 fees, then they should accept the accountability that goes with that. They should not be jumping ship when the going gets tough, because that is just fundamentally wrong. Too often that has happened recently. Finance companies have been the worst example. Mainzeal is another example that has been a shocker. It is happening across the board. The people at the top of the pile, the people who are getting those directors\u2019 fees, should be held accountable and they should accept some responsibility for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party is supporting this bill through all stages today with some reluctance, because although we understand the problem and we see the need to plug the gap, and we do not want to see exploited this particular loophole that has been established, we are very uncomfortable about the notion that a bill will be put through all stages in Parliament under urgency. I do not think that in the time I have been in Parliament, 4\u00BD years now, I have attended a select committee for any bills\u2014I have sat through some pretty turgid bills, including some Statutes Amendment bills and the like, which are very technical bills and generally pretty dry\u2014where there has not been something useful that has come out of that process, whether it is a very minor technical amendment or some other clarification. There can, in fact, always be improvements made to a bill through the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI guess the clincher for me, though, in agreeing that the Labour Party should support this bill through all stages, is that it is very much a short-term measure and it is going to be replaced by another bill that will go through the proper process in a very short order of time\u2014although, having said that, Gerry Brownlee is still in charge of the House, so we do not quite know. There are no guarantees that anything will progress particularly fast while Gerry Brownlee is in charge, but we live in hope. We live in hope that through the gerrymandering process something useful might finally come out at the other end. The Labour Party is supporting this legislation with some reluctance, but we do agree that the loophole should be plugged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002266434e6d18fd4e66a893d13ba681e698\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266434e6d18fd4e66a893d13ba681e698\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on the third reading of the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. The Green Party will be supporting this bill. Under current law, as we have heard, a retiring trustee may make an application to the courts, under section 46 of the Trustee Act, to have the Public Trust undertake the trust in their place. This very old law was originally designed to protect the interests of beneficiaries and the continuity of their family trusts. This legislation is before us today because of other cases in front of the courts, in which the trustee of a failed finance company, Perpetual Trust, has declared that he has a conflict of interest and has applied to the court to have the Public Trust appointed as the trust of last resort. This would incur some financial liabilities for the Public Trust for a problem that was not its problem in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe legislation is very short and simple. It adds a few new tests to help ensure that the Public Trust does not bear any financial burden of acting as a trustee for a failing investment for a failed finance company, of which we know there are very, very many. There are already 60, so we could see more litigation of this type incurring financial liabilities for the Public Trust. The changes in this bill say that the court may only appoint the Public Trust as a replacement trustee if the resigning trustee has made reasonable endeavours to appoint a replacement trustee, and the resigning trustee indemnifies the Public Trust for reasonable fees and expenses, and provides security for that indemnity. The Green Party looked at the proposed legislation and thought that although we have concerns about the process, because we saw this draft legislation only on Tuesday evening and I saw the regulatory impact statement only today, actually this is quite a reasonable test that should be considered by the courts. This stopgap measure could prevent, potentially, the floodgates opening up for other failed finance companies to apply to the court to have the Public Trust take on their trusteeships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is very happy to see the Government acting in the interests of the Public Trust and taxpayers, to protect them from financial liabilities caused by failed finance companies. We think that is actually quite a different move, a different direction, for this Government, which up until now has not really proposed legislation that would protect the taxpayer. In effect, it seems to systematically prefer to protect the interests of monopoly private interests. For example, earlier today we had the Committee stage of the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, where we have seen changes to the regulations for public transport that will actually entrench the dominance of existing bus operators, and the Government has declined to alter the transitional measures in that particular legislation in a way that would actually save taxpayers\u2019 money, save regional councils ratepayers\u2019 money, and result in lower bus operating costs. Presumably, it has done this because it is really on the side of the shareholders of the private bus companies, not on the side of the ratepayers and the taxpayers who deserve to get good value for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESimilarly, there are changes in that legislation that will open up the possibility of going to the private sector to finance some very dodgy motorway projects like Transmission Gully, which essentially means that we get the same projects but we pay an extra $2 billion. So instead of paying $1 billion for a project that is worth about $500 million in benefits, we will get to pay $3.4 billion\u2014that is, future New Zealand taxpayers will pay $3.4 billion for a project that is worth $500 million, so that the private overseas banks financing the company have a nice solid and safe investment over a 25-year period and they can earn 10 to 12 percent returns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is an unusual step for this Government, and I commend the Minister of Justice for looking after the Public Trust and trying to put in place a stopgap measure, even though it will not affect the case that is currently before the court, if the court does decide to appoint the Public Trust as the replacement trustee of last resort for Capital \u002B Merchant Finance. There will be costs incurred, and this legislation will do nothing to protect the Public Trust from this particular case, but we do hope it will protect the Public Trust in future cases. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022882717e787de4aeba5342c7cdf34905c\u0022\u003EInsurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cddcaf5a764a4d79bd2e67d0067d8cf6\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfe49c5a5c0448459512469698c9b85e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfe49c5a5c0448459512469698c9b85e\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE (Minister for Food Safety)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that this bill be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and that the committee present its final report on or before 13 September 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill contains amendments to the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act 2010 in nine areas, and one consequential amendment to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989. It aims to reduce or eliminate unnecessary compliance costs and address technical issues identified during provisional licensing to ensure a smooth transition to full licensing of insurers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EBy way of background, the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act, which received the Royal assent on 7 September 2010, establishes a licensing and prudential supervision regime for insurers carrying on insurance business in New Zealand. The Act represents a significant step forward in terms of delivering comprehensive prudential regulation of insurers carrying on insurance business in New Zealand. The Act provides for a transitional period towards full compliance that runs through to 7 September 2013. Most insurers carrying on business during the transitional period are operating under a provisional licence, whereby the full effect of the Act is delayed. At the end of the transitional period all provisional licences will have expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe Reserve Bank has reviewed the operations of the Act during the transitional period. Although the Act has proved to be generally effective and robust, it is not unexpected that some provisions have been identified as appropriate for reform. In particular, two provisions in the Act could expose insurers or the Reserve Bank to operational complications at the end of the transitional period, and for this reason these amendments would ideally come into force before 7 September 2013. The amendment bill proposes to extend the term of provisional licences of insurers who enter into an insolvency procedure before 7 September 2013. At this date insurers that are subject to an insolvency procedure will not qualify for a full licence. The inability to extend a provisional licence will result in the insurer not being subject to distress management provisions prescribed under the Act, and the Reserve Bank may wish to continue to have a role for regulatory purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe second proposal relates to interim financial reporting requirements. Some overseas insurers are concerned about the cost of complying with half-yearly insurer and group financial statements prepared in accordance with New Zealand generally accepted accounting practice where branches and subsidiaries are operated in a number of countries. The proposed amendment is to allow the Reserve Bank to specify another basis for reporting by overseas insurers. For example, in appropriate cases, overseas insurers may submit half-yearly insurer and group regulatory financial reports in accordance with home jurisdiction requirements. It is anticipated that the Reserve Bank would receive the same information provided to the insurer\u2019s home regulator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ETwo other proposals are expected to reduce or eliminate unnecessary compliance costs. Certain provisions under the Act have been identified to be too onerous in circumstances where policy holders are not expected to gain material benefits or additional protection even if the insurer complies with the requirements. The first of these allows the Reserve Bank to exempt an insurer that is running off its liabilities from the requirement to have a current financial strength rating. Often there will be limited public benefit for an insurer to hold a financial strength rating where it is required to cease to enter into new contracts of insurance. The second clarifies that in respect of contracts of insurance that renew more frequently than annually, disclosure in writing of the insurer\u2019s financial strength rating to the policy holder will be made on at least an annual basis rather than on every renewal. This proposal would stand in addition to provisions under the Act, requiring the insurer to give notice of a rating downgrade to the public or policy holder within a prescribed period and to disclose its current financial strength rating on its internet site. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill also takes the opportunity to address technical issues\u2014for example, providing a limitation period of 5 years within which the Reserve Bank may file a charging document against an insurer that has committed an offence. A limitation period of 5 years for all types of offences against the Act is considered appropriate to improve consistency in the enforcement of the Act, to reflect the nature of operation and risks in the insurance sector, and to improve consistency with provisions in other statutes administered by the Reserve Bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill also empowers the Reserve Bank to publish and maintain on its website an official register of licensed insurers, with additional content to be determined by regulations. This will result in a consequential amendment to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989, where the current provision is confined to the determination of form, and will set a common standard across the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the proposals included in the amendment bill will enhance the effectiveness of the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act without the imposition of unnecessary compliance costs on insurers. To date there has been general industry acceptance of the Act. The amendment bill does not involve significant changes to existing policy and is expected to continue to benefit from the industry\u2019s support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00223c066cb8d7004253a2dbe3db46972ff1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c066cb8d7004253a2dbe3db46972ff1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to confirm that the Labour Party will be, with some reluctance, supporting this bill, the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. This bill extends the transitional period established under the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act 2010 that would otherwise expire in September of this year, and the bill does need to be enacted before this date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI could not hope to match the comprehensive and exciting presentation by Minister Nikki Kaye. There will be a quiz at the end of this debate for people watching Parliament tonight to test their memory of the points that the Minister made in her opening address. My remarks will be limited to two broad sections. Firstly, I am going to note some of the provisions of the bill that have, no doubt, been made with considerable input from the insurance industry. I think it is important that the House checks off that input. Secondly, Mr Assistant Speaker, if you will allow me, I will note some contextual matters to do with Reserve Bank prudential supervision, which provide some of the framework within which this bill has occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOn to the first matter, which is that this bill might have been named the \u201CInsurance (Prudential Supervision\u2014The Industry Made Me Do It) Amendment Bill\u201D. The reason for that characterisation is that it contains a number of provisions that might be kindly described as business-friendly. In other words, judging by the Minister\u2019s enthusiasm for her speech, she was probably handed a list by the insurance association and told: \u201CPlease enact these.\u201D That seems to be what is happening, and I draw the House\u2019s attention to but a couple of examples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe first is, in the genteel language of officials: \u201CThe Bill \u2026 contains amendments that extend the term of provisional licences of insurers that enter into an insolvency procedure before 7 September \u2026 Extending the term of \u2026 [these licences] ensures that the distress management tools made available \u2026 will reduce unnecessary costs and improve administrative efficiency \u2026\u201D. In other words, it is a free extension. Here is another example: \u201COther amendments will reduce \u2026 costs and improve administrative efficiency\u201D\u2014the same language again\u2014\u201C(for example, a formalised register administered by the Bank and an ability to exempt insurers in run-off from the requirement to maintain a current financial strength rating).\u201D Why have a current financial strength rating if you are simply going to exempt the insurers? This is rather interesting\u2014\u201CThe Industry Made Me Do It Bill\u201D. I will not go on because, of course, there are valid reasons to have the bill. We do not want the current transitional period expiring and the industry simply being left in the lurch, and for that reason Labour is supporting the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is very important to note, if I might, some of the context within which this has occurred. This has been a very, very big week for the Reserve Bank. It was only yesterday that we discovered, despite the continual protestations of the Minister of Finance that New Zealand had hitherto had the very best monetary policy in the entire world, which included no intervention in currency markets and no macro-prudential tools, that guess what? The Governor of the Reserve Bank confirmed to the Finance and Expenditure Committee yesterday that, virtually as the Minister was speaking, the bank was busy intervening in the New Zealand dollar. Goodness me! What the Minister refused to countenance, the governor was already doing. How very, very interesting. So there is the Reserve Bank selling New Zealand dollars like it is going out of fashion to drive the Kiwi dollar down\u2014and, in fact, it did, because as soon as that was announced, the Kiwi dollar dropped like a stone, by about a cent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut the interesting thing here is that Labour has been calling for exactly that kind of intervention\u2014and so have our Green colleagues\u2014for about the last 3 years, and the Government of the day has said it was unnecessary. Here is the embarrassing thing for the National-ACT Government: the Governor of the Reserve Bank, hardly a noted Marxist revolutionary, has gone on and done it behind the Government\u2019s back\u2014leapfrogged the Government, and agreed with the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat an interesting week for the Reserve Bank to be debating the now rather exciting Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. Who knew that this bill would be a show-stopper? Who knew why the Government buried it at the very end of the long list of matters to be covered in urgency? Because it is embarrassed\u2014deeply, deeply embarrassed. It is so worried that Tim Groser has been brought back from Geneva or Ouagadougou where he was busy marshalling votes to be the Secretary-General of the South Pacific Forum, just so he could save the Government for this bill. I commend his action, I hope someone gave him a decent visa, and I look forward to running against him in the good seat of New Lynn in a mere 18 months\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe second signal achievement of this week in regard to the Reserve Bank is the governor\u2019s admission that in a few days he will be signing with the Minister of Finance a memorandum of understanding on the subject of macro-prudential supervision\u2014a matter not unrelated to the content of this bill, but rather more exciting. That is things like loan-to-value ratios and other tools that will compress the rapid rise of the housing market. Again, the Labour and Green parties have been calling for the increased use of these tools and the consequential amendment of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act for the last 2 years. We are on record. What did Mr English say? \u201COh no!\u201D, he said, \u201CThere is no need. We already have the best monetary policy in the whole wide world, and that would be unorthodox!\u201D Well, how very interesting that in a short few days\u2019 time he will be signing off on the very same amendments that the Opposition has long mooted and that he has long denied. What a very interesting week for the Reserve Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe third leg of the treble for the Reserve Bank is the contribution of noted New Zealand Herald economist Brian Fallow, who today has declared that \u201CAusterity\u2019s for booms, not slumps.\u201D This is important because the Government is embarking on a veritable austerity programme, soon to be confirmed by another miserly and unfair Budget in just a few days\u2019 time. Does the Government believe that we are in a boom? If it does, it must be living on a different planet. Should we call it \u201CPlanet Gilmore\u201D? On \u201CPlanet Gilmore\u201D, everything is rosy! The waiters deliver on time and they do not answer back. On \u201CPlanet Gilmore\u201D, New Zealand is blooming. It is just that on the real planet Earth, in the real Aotearoa, it ain\u2019t booming. There are 270,000\u2014here is the serious bit\u2014children growing up in poverty, and many, many tens of thousands more unemployed than when this Government took office. This is something closer to a slump for real New Zealanders than a boom, and this is no time for austerity. [Interruption] Todd, there is time for the noted chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Committee to refresh the coiffure of his pate before he leaps to his feet and demands the attention of the viewer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMay I sum up. There are three elements to this debate. The first is\u2014as the Minister, with such sparkling repartee, has outlined to the House\u2014that this is a boring bill. However, it is boring particularly because she is merely reading the shopping list from the insurance industry association. She is so afraid; she is now slumping down behind her chair. She is so ashamed to have been the tool of the industry. The second main point is that there are some significant holes, which Labour will do its best to reconsider in 18 months\u2019 time when we take the Treasury benches. The third is that it has been a huge week for the Reserve Bank. It has finally come out. It is appropriate to use such terms in the House, of course, noting recent achievements. It has come out and said that it likes to intervene in currency markets\u2014that it is good for it, it puts hairs on its chest, it makes money out of it, and it drives down the Kiwi dollar so we can export more. That is all good stuff. The only person who disagrees is Bill English, but Graeme Wheeler has seen to him. Finally, he is seeing to him next week when he forces the Minister to sign off on the macro-prudential tool box, which Labour and the Greens have long been calling for. I would say this is a week, in regard to the Reserve Bank\u2019s supervision role, where you could say Opposition one, Government nil. The people of New Zealand live in hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00225a5d0d116a6c4e3daf05c4456e73d94b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a5d0d116a6c4e3daf05c4456e73d94b\u0022\u003ETODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E There are people in New Zealand living in hope now that that last speech has finished. We will get on very soon, I am sure, to the quiz that was announced, but I think the number of people taking part in the quiz at this stage will be many fewer than at the beginning of the intervention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ECan I just address one point from that last speech very briefly before I get into talking about what is a significant piece of legislation, the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. The last speaker in the debate, the Hon David Cunliffe, spoke of 200,000 children in poverty in New Zealand. I do not want to debate around what that word \u201Cpoverty\u201D means, but what I do want to say, and what I want to recollect, is that over 9 years of a Labour Government there were more than $20 billion worth of surpluses, and at the end of that 9-year period there were the same number of children in poverty as there were at the very beginning. I just wanted to address that. I will put it aside, because the House is harmoniously moving towards a short adjournment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ECan I say again that this amendment bill is another significant step towards achieving clear and robust regulatory arrangements across our financial sector. Although the original Act of 2010 has proven to be effective, it is not unexpected that some provisions have been identified as appropriate for reform, and, therefore, this amendment bill does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI did say this is a significant piece of legislation; therefore, I want to reserve my substantive contribution until the second reading. But can I say to Minister Nikki Kaye that that was one of the more enlightening speeches I have heard on legislation that is likely to come to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I want to thank her for her great knowledge in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u00226742a4a7f4b54bee98cbe145f6ff5dbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226742a4a7f4b54bee98cbe145f6ff5dbf\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call to support this bill, the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill, especially as delivered by the Minister for Food Safety, Nikki Kaye. This is a sensible bill and we will be supporting it through to the select committee stage. The bill makes a number of technical amendments to the prudential regulatory framework for the insurance industry. The Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act 2010 received the Royal assent on 7 September 2010. It established a licensing and prudential supervision regime for insurers carrying on insurance business in New Zealand. In other words, the insurers carrying on insurance business in New Zealand are required by the Act to participate in a licensing and prudential supervision regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere is a transition period in the Act and that runs through to 7 September 2013. Most insurers carry on business during the provisional period, operating under a provisional licence, whereby the full effect of the Act is delayed while insurers follow the path to full compliance. At the end of the transition period, all provisional licences will have expired. Needless to say, this bill needs to be enacted before that date, and this bill should have had its first reading months ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThrough the licensing phase of the 2010 Act a number of technical issues have been identified as appropriate for reform. This bill brings amendments relating to these technical issues. The key amendments proposed in this bill include, firstly, requiring the Reserve Bank to keep a register of licensed insurers. Secondly, it allows overseas insurers to report, with the Reserve Bank\u2019s consent, by entering financial information that complies with their home jurisdiction requirements rather than New Zealand\u2019s International Financial Reporting Standards generally accepted accounting practice. Thirdly, it extends the term of provisional licences of insurers that enter into an insolvency procedure before 7 September 2013. Extending the term of the provisional licences of those insurers would make sure that the distress management tools made available under Part 4 of the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act remain available to the Reserve Bank and liquidators. It is intended that the amendments proposed under this bill will come into force before 7 September 2013. However, this has yet to be confirmed or cannot get confirmed, because it is having only its first reading tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee4626bd8d644fef9753980149c705fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee4626bd8d644fef9753980149c705fe\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the first reading of the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. I will begin by saying that the Green Party has decided that we cannot offer support to this bill at the first reading, and there are several reasons for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFirstly, the principal legislation, the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act, was supported by the Green Party. We think it is extremely important to have good regulatory oversight and good prudential requirements for the insurance industry, so we were very supportive of that bill throughout the whole process. What this amendment bill seeks to do is make nine very technical, dry changes to the prudential requirements for the insurance industry, which are set to come into law in September 2013. The changes were recommended by the Reserve Bank. They include things like allowing the Reserve Bank to exempt a licensed insurer from the requirements to have a current financial strength rating if the insurer has stopped writing new contracts. It allows overseas insurers to use accounting rules that apply in their home country for interim financial reporting rather than adhering to New Zealand\u2019s accounting practices. It requires the Reserve Bank to keep a public register of all licensed insurers, while dropping the requirement for it to be made available on the bank\u2019s website\u2014interestingly. It makes any offences under the principal Act category 3 offences as defined by the Crimes Act, creating a statute of limitations of 5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe main changes recommended in the bill move in the direction of lighter regulation in some highly specific circumstances, such as the case of an insurance company that has stopped issuing new insurance. This controlled relaxing could make sense; however, our concern is that it is happening in an industry that is characterised in New Zealand by a few dominant, foreign-owned players that are too big to fail. We believe that particularly in a post - global financial crisis world, in a world where the insurance industry globally is facing increasing threats\u2014and in New Zealand we saw after the natural disaster of the Christchurch earthquake that it had quite serious repercussions for AMI, which was our largest New Zealand - owned insurer. In the post - global financial crisis world and in a world where we can anticipate more frequent serious, severe weather incidents that will undoubtedly result in insurance companies having to pay out more, it is not the time to be moving towards lighter regulation. We could be convinced through the select committee process, but it will take that process for us to fully understand the total ramifications and implications of the changes in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI note that another reason for not supporting it tonight is that there was no regulatory impact statement accompanying this bill, so we have got no reason for these particular changes that is fleshed out in detail and fleshed out in a way where we feel we have been able to understand that the officials have looked at the changes, have thought about all the implications, and have assessed the risks and the advantages of these changes. Given the dearth of information about the bill, we simply cannot support it this evening. That is all I have to say. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00227d2c4b7dc485491597974fe994521f77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d2c4b7dc485491597974fe994521f77\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First will be supporting it through to the select committee. We believe that it is a fundamental situation in New Zealand that we must have a good, well-functioning insurance sector. It has been proven over recent years that unless we do, New Zealand is at great risk. It is most important\u2014I think all parties in this House would agree\u2014that we must have a very sound, well-functioning insurance sector, and that includes our own Earthquake Commission measures as well. The insurance sector underpins the basics of our modern economy. If we do not have a sound insurance sector, our whole economy could suffer as a result. The public must have confidence that this sector is sound, and appropriate prudential supervision of the sector is an important regulatory function that this Parliament must ensure is done to the highest level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe Christchurch earthquake demonstrated the critical role of insurance, and it highlighted some concerns, as were illustrated in the situation with AMI. It would be so easy for situations like that to occur if there was not oversight by this Parliament and by the Government to ensure that the right safeguards were put in place in terms of the insurance sector. But it also revealed some aspects of the insurance sector that may not be working optimally for New Zealand. With so much of the insurance sector dominated by overseas companies, it is essential that the regulatory framework is comprehensive and up to date and that it works well. New Zealand First appreciates the significance of the insurance sector, that it operates well in New Zealand, and that at the present time we do seem to have it well and truly in hand. That is not to say that things cannot fall through the cracks. This bill goes a long way towards tidying up areas of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe have a few questions, which when the bill goes to the Finance and Expenditure Committee I am sure will be answered, such as about financial standards not being required of the insurance provider if it is in a run-off period. If the licensed insurer is described as being in a state of run-off and is not entering into new contracts for insurance, the Reserve Bank will be satisfied that it does not therefore have to have a current financial strength rating. We sort of have some doubts about that, and we would welcome the Minister of Finance and the Government explaining that a little bit further, because we believe that the highest financial ratings should be required, even at a time when an insurance company is running down in New Zealand. We would not want it to slip out the back door, so to speak, because its financial ratings were not held to the highest level throughout its activities in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis is a little bit like the bill that we addressed prior to this one, the Trustee (Public Trust) Amendment Bill. The Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill is very much an administrative bill. It is a technical bill. It tidies up areas through the Reserve Bank to make sure that our insurance industry in New Zealand has better governance and better oversight. New Zealand First will be supporting the bill through to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223fd615832291442396eee92dde9bb616\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 93\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 22; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 12; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000960\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00228f390fe1036542e89a0c5810eff31b67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f390fe1036542e89a0c5810eff31b67\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE (Minister for Food Safety)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill be reported back to the House on or before 13 September 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 8.30 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013050844baa965e08e4c30b483a1907ab49482000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"