"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ad17784da6248f7b4e00db5f3d72a13\u0022\u003EWednesday, 10 July 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e63844f696234d459921088d694df8de\u0022\u003EWednesday, 10 July 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f23bfaec0d1547269578ed35a719dd13\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250b8ee774d4a44e2847f897740c9af6a\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d56dca37db47455f84d2f142df432dc8\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Electricity Market and Skycity Convention Centre Legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022efed0f6e375743fbba3c2fdf01a9accc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efed0f6e375743fbba3c2fdf01a9accc\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf061b2e8d504bbab50e808117fdefb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf061b2e8d504bbab50e808117fdefb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257cad53f69344165b8efd4f6980051a7\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he stand by his statement on the prices New Zealanders are paying for power: \u201CI think that they are paying a price \u2026 in relation to the environment we find ourselves in,\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269318f3974aa488781fc5908d9d5bf27\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283953783b99e46c3b73f0f65c01639f7\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Did he fulfil his undertaking to the House yesterday to check the figures that show New Zealand households will pay an extra $370 on average for power because his Government insists on taking out $1.16 billion in Transpower dividends?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208511b0420eb4ecfbf8b37c97cca78cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I did two things yesterday. One was that I went and looked on the Infratil website to see how it is bagging the Labour Party for misleading the country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228469cb0d157b41fb92f83567c281f512\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That piece of information has nothing to do with the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265471520a7e14f7dbd121533a4e4b2eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that on this occasion the Prime Minister has adequately answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9da500a4734a049298d8fcb690d7ba\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that pulling dividends out of a company that needs to invest $5 billion to strengthen the network means that family power bills are hit twice: first, to pay for the upgrade, and then, second, to pay for his Government\u2019s dividend; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022802eb218e4124dcb86275341818cb305\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Dividends actually make no difference in terms of the pricing of power. I am surprised the member does not know that. What actually sets the transmission part of pricing is the Commerce Commission\u2019s weighted average cost of capital charging. It has got nothing to do with dividends. Secondly, yes, Transpower has gone through a substantial upgrade. By the way, it started under Labour in 2005 when it invested $252 million, and then in 2006 when it invested $288 million. So, yes, it has invested about $3 billion, for which it will get its weighted average cost of capital return, and that obviously has some impact. I suspect that what the Leader of the Opposition should do is that he should go and look at this State-owned enterprise and then he should go and look at another State-owned enterprise called New Zealand Post, because it has got a letter waiting for him from the Labour Party caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1f61fc7fcb40d9b989c2714213088c\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: That was a strain. Does he think it is fair that his Cabinet awarded the chief executive officer of Mighty River Power a 34 percent increase on top of a $500,000 retention bonus at the same time as forcing New Zealand families to pay more than $370 extra in power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274756160154844759786ed3750bf29d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Decisions on remuneration are made by the board of Mighty River Power. So the board of directors at Mighty River Power said to Doug Heffernan, their chief executive: \u201CDoug, we love you.\u201D But we know that in the Labour Party no one would go to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e22bcc3301470aa0d6372dbe8e388d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! That is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ea8ab18caf49788f0a3dc3ec533d68\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Is he saying, therefore, that his Cabinet did not tick off the approval for the chief executive officer to be awarded a 34 percent pay increase and a $500,000 retention bonus; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a943d2a2dc444c8e88a9280220b707bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: What I am saying is that decisions of compensation are made by the board. Those decisions are held by the board. They may well tell the Government, under a no-surprises policy, but they are made the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221500283d677041829a942d6266b46a87\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How about answering the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221141d6652ef842acb3c20178ba77c8ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Were you on the letter or not? Actually, last night\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250d903321110410d84be34b3a189f5ae\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! There is no need to bring the Speaker into this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac47e91469e41a5870aa83bac6f8b91\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that under the Labour Government it did not take dividends from Transpower, and instead invested it back into the company rather than having to take dividends out and then ask consumers to pay for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48702b71a2b4a91b584b05b1d000030\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe I can answer that question by asking a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d55833b4859549e4a98a02c1a9927095\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834f000798a04b30b71fb77c50ce3a8c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I can see why your caucus meeting went so badly yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6d5fbc40ce4b43923ed4a0cab4b2d6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Could the Prime Minister just address the question that has been asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd685c7b3be3480c8b097048be843a27\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I will address the question. Was Labour the Government in 2002? If it was, it took a dividend from Transpower. Was it the Government in 2003? If it was, it took a dividend from Transpower. Was it the Government in 2004? If it was, it took a dividend from Transpower. Was it the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb57e605ea844bb1b4ccdf09c599146e\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ed97c2d3ae4df2a5e71482635e054b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! I have a point of order from the Hon Annette King.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff6c2d8647614eadbc85114ed16d91cf\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that in question time the members of the Opposition ask the questions and the Ministers answer. What we have had from the Prime Minister is a series of questions back to the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b872955741548b097d6a3d1238111ed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] No, I need no assistance from the Prime Minister. The question was asked and the Prime Minister chose his way of answering it. It was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b16d8bf96864922b9ece9a53b82b3c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minister justify paying $1.9 million to the \u201Cfeed the schools\u201D programmes and then $1.7 million to the chief executive officer of Mighty River Power\u2014how can that possibly be equitable or fair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022899e3bfba79140e68406a4d9ace08b96\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The two are not correlated. For a start off, the Government spends about $70 billion - odd a year, so you can go and draw any particular thing. But in the end the compensation for the chief executive of Mighty River Power is determined by the board. It might be that he happened to be doing a good job. I know David Shearer is not, but Doug Heffernan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299cb0882abc64812b89d10b3ff7715ba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec89086df8c4a3cb311e575bca8d097\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Prime Minister\u2019s statement that he opposes a conscience vote on the Skycity convention centre bill, what pressure has he or his office placed on National MPs to vote against their conscience on the first reading of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f480250bc2374111b4baa9f6a5285a54\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I never said I opposed that. What I said is that all National MPs will be voting for the legislation. The reason they will be voting for it is that this party went on the campaign trail and campaigned on this issue. Every single member of this party was elected on the back of that policy, just like the members of the Green Party were elected on some of the mad policies that they campaigned on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002217a40715949f495db92530208899fe91\u0022\u003ESkycity, Convention Centre\u2014Gambling-related Harm\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022430bdbcf35354087afc4e417812af27c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022430bdbcf35354087afc4e417812af27c\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (Leader\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he think the Government\u2019s decision to grant 230 new pokie machines, 52 new gambling tables, and a 35-year licence extension is worth the increase in relationship breakdowns, depression, suicide, family violence, increased money laundering, job losses, increased problem gambling and financial problems, as identified by its own Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment-compiled regulatory impact statement; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002255c53846a73242579981abc4cec37789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255c53846a73242579981abc4cec37789\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E I reject the premise of the member\u2019s question for a number of reasons. The first point is to note that the regulatory impact statement states that harm from gambling may include the things the member refers to. It is also important that there are a number of things that mitigate those possibilities in this case. Firstly, it is by no means clear at all that a marginal increase in machines in one casino will increase gambling harm, especially when the total number of machines across Auckland and across New Zealand continues to decline. Also, the negotiated significant additional harm-minimisation measures that apply to all gambling machines across the casino will together act to reduce harm. Once the concessions are in place there is also absolutely nothing to stop the regulatory authorities introducing new harm-minimisation measures over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b76409f406e45468f2401cace0ecdc8\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said yesterday that it is difficult to quantify the potential size of any increased risk of harm, does that mean he did not read the full regulatory impact statement from his own ministry, which said: \u201Can additional 4,779 \u2026 people may be at least partly affected by casino machines and an additional 3,600 \u2026 by casino tables.\u201D, and does he now accept that the potential size of any increased risk of harm is not only quantifiable but also unacceptable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8df3dfcb7a64b38aa7057e1b22395aa\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No. In fact, the same statement\u2014because it is important to get this in context\u2014says that it is difficult to quantify the potential risk of any increased risk of harm. It goes on to say, in relation to the matters the member raises, that this is a hypothesis, and says in paragraph 91: \u201Cit is possible to hypothesise\u201D. It then goes on to say: \u201CIt is difficult to estimate the additional numbers \u2026\u201D and \u201CPutting a precise cost on this potential increase is also difficult.\u201D So it does record a hypothesis as a possibility, but, as I answered in answer to the primary question, there are a number of things that mitigate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c20aae738149ee91962621880cc3a6\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that the decision to grant 230 new pokie machines, 52 new gambling tables, and a 35-year licence extension is evidence that this Government operates on the basis that deliberately harming its own citizens is acceptable, as long as it achieves its own primary goals of allowing its fat cat friends to profiteer from New Zealanders\u2019 misery, and getting free access for themselves; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ec885de79f548baaf6f568c0916e219\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I reject that assertion completely. This Government is focused on jobs and growth for New Zealanders. I appreciate that that member himself is against jobs and growth for his constituents in Te Tai Tokerau. This Government is focused on them. The reality is that many human activities have the potential for social harm, but the important thing is how you mitigate that risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242729c16f14646f8b4922483e53f27ca\u0022\u003ETax System Changes\u2014Impact on Families\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae371343c7134f2a89c26bb630b7ea57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae371343c7134f2a89c26bb630b7ea57\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How has the Government made the tax system fairer for New Zealand households and families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022848bab82d8db4383949c88aaae69f90c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022848bab82d8db4383949c88aaae69f90c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Over successive Government Budgets, the Government has made a number of changes to make the system fairer. It has removed the ability set up by the Labour Government to enable people to shelter their income in trusts, raised the effective tax rate on property investment, increased funding for the Inland Revenue Department to target property speculators and others avoiding tax, prevented people from using investment losses to make themselves eligible for Working for Families and other Government support, and brought in stricter rules to ensure multinational companies contribute their fair share of tax. At the same time, the Government has reduced income tax rates across the board. Almost three-quarters of taxpayers now face a personal tax rate of 17.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02ec5cc14b34fceaad8e9b13b9050a3\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: What changes has the Government made to income tax rates and other taxes to help families get ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e987dba2dedd4ad681ad79c1f19316f9\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In 2010 our tax package reduced tax on work and savings, and increased taxes on consumption and property speculation. After-tax incomes at all levels of taxable income were immediately increased by more than the increase in GST in 2010. The changes also made the tax system fairer. Two-thirds of the cost of the income tax cuts in 2010 went to reducing the bottom two tax rates. So someone earning $48,000 a year now has a top tax rate of 17.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228807bfb11ac64f33bd7b707fccdb117c\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: How does the income tax system interact with income support provided to lower-income families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2944a528e564d61b9cac9e531669021\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Despite a recession and significant fiscal deficits, the Government has maintained a redistributive tax and income support system that supports low and middle income earners in New Zealand. At any particular time a large number of households, effectively, do not pay net tax. That is because the amount they pay in income tax is exceeded by the amount they receive from welfare benefits, Working for Families, paid parental leave, accommodation subsidies, and others. This is entirely appropriate to redistribute income from the higher-income earners to those genuinely in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9b27aa1d954abcbe10b0e4914d746d\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: How significantly do the income tax and income support systems redistribute incomes for New Zealand households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd55e93af004fd9a8d7001640867c94\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: When we look at the way the system redistributes income, we can measure that by net tax for income groups\u2014that is, the difference between the tax they pay and the assistance that they receive. For families earning under $60,000 a year, taking into account the income support payments and their income tax, they pay $2.7 billion in income tax and receive $1.8 billion of income support. That is the total for people earning under $60,000. The net effect of that is that for households earning over $150,000 it is 12 percent. The top 12 percent of income earners pay 76 percent of net income tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4e062bc3c04b639406bec2119ea6be\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that his superficial analysis of tax paid by income group, firstly, takes no account of the fact that low and middle income people pay GST on the vast majority of their spending at higher effective tax rates than high-income earners, and, secondly, ignores the advice of the OECD that in New Zealand capital income earned by the wealthiest in society attracts virtually no taxation, which is unfair; if he is not aware of either of these things, does it not show that his latest educational trip to the OECD was a waste of time and money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a62ae567dce44db09520701c0b45fa87\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not true. If he is concerned about the capital gains of the wealthy not being taxed, that is actually part of his policy, because he wants to exempt the family home from his capital gains tax. Secondly, when you look at the distributional effects of GST, in fact, it is relatively neutral. The Labour Party has to get used to the idea that the 2010 tax package reduced inequality in income tax distribution in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002221c23c2e79f54f7388bc8051898dc53c\u0022\u003ESkycity, Convention Centre\u2014Harm Minimisation Plan and Consultation on Legislative Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6fd4b6144ba4d26a251dfe861e00f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6fd4b6144ba4d26a251dfe861e00f2a\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: When he said that gambling-related harm from the SkyCity deal would be mitigated by \u201Cnegotiated, significant additional harm minimisation measures\u201D did he mean measures additional to those the casino is already obliged to use; if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00225083c464d3784118a74952aa868b7182\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225083c464d3784118a74952aa868b7182\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The Government has negotiated a number of significant harm minimisation measures as part of the agreement with Skycity. These include the introduction of the predictive modelling tool, which analyses data to identify players at risk of problem gambling. Skycity is also being required to implement a voluntary pre-commitment system, where players can elect to restrict the amount of time they play or the amount they spend, and this applies to all machines at all times in the casino and will become part of Skycity\u2019s host responsibility programme. It will also have to introduce player identification requirements when amounts over $500 are being put on to, or cashed from, ticket-in, ticket-out machines in non-restricted areas, as well as, of course, doubling of the number of host responsibility specialists to deliver 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week coverage in the casino.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a692690a8478460c9d48ba3e9e62288f\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the 13,000 people and 6,500 children whom his advisers say will be harmed by this deal will not be harmed due to the supposedly additional measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286197ba339224a2b828080b630613484\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I reject again today the premise of the member\u2019s question. I have reviewed the regulatory impact statement fairly carefully, as you would expect, and it makes it clear that actually being able to determine a level of additional harm is not possible to do. They talk about a hypothesis, and it is very difficult to estimate the additional numbers of people who may experience problems. They also say that putting a precise cost on a potential increase is also difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14c89cc32944998aa627061c0c1a7c1\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister release all the advice he has received on the social harms of the extra gambling in this deal today so that when National MPs vote tomorrow, they are fully informed about the extent of the social harms in his bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7fd5862c9db4837878792a13af5feb5\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I will check again, but my understanding is we have released most of the information that we have. There is some more information in regards to the negotiations, which will be released in the next little while, but I think particularly the key elements in relation to potential harm have been released and are also very adequately traversed in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282af89d693924525aaa391508e61a872\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister explain to his colleagues before they vote tomorrow why the New Zealand Police and the Ministry of Justice were excluded from the discussions to introduce ticket-in, ticket-out technology throughout the whole casino, when his officials knew that those ministries would be concerned about the increased risk of money-laundering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7bab67f8f7644a48bb975e37ebc8f42\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that the member is correct on that, but certainly it is fair to say that my colleagues in the caucus of the National Party have had plenty of time, partly with assistance from the member, to assess their level of support for this particular arrangement, including, of course, the ability to assess whether the 230 machines are an appropriate arrangement to make for a very large convention centre, compared with, say, 230 machines for one a quarter of the size under the previous Government supported by the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022575ecc20257f4bc6bda3e1a13d39a49d\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an email received by me under the Official Information Act dated 16 March 2012 from an official who says: \u201CAs for Justice and Police, they have obviously not been consulted on the details\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022548d4f7cacc947b2994facbb48444227\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ae642a5f3d4b5bb7f5ff5399f93c3a\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the truth, Minister, that the Minister is frightened of supporting a genuine conscience vote on this bill because he knows that this bill, this deal, is hanging by a one-vote thread?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cdb4a21f12f46a3bdfd53d9d2901722\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am pretty confident, and I know that the Government is pretty confident, about the votes on this side of the House, but I appreciate there are members on the other side of the House who might like the opportunity to vote for jobs and growth through this bill. I note that the Labour leader, for example, has allowed a conscience vote in this matter, and given the state of the Labour caucus, I expect a few more votes from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7890ac19c7245b990b18b71bfe2a69d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is this Minister prepared to rule out using a process similar to this for a convention centre in another city?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc50548c8184fcba951e9d8b553d345\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can tell the member that there are no plans at all that I am aware of in this respect. What he raises is a hypothetical question, and we would deal with it if it came up at the time, but there has been certainly nothing raised in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aeceeb8219e14cbfad18b64b19a4ada6\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Infant Immunisation and Rheumatic Fever\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00221d799d210e6f4377833e2d0cb729adab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d799d210e6f4377833e2d0cb729adab\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What is this Government doing, as part of Better Public Services, to ensure that New Zealand children are better protected from preventable diseases such as whooping cough and hepatitis B?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe40c54de21f410c89741aa0f9890525\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe40c54de21f410c89741aa0f9890525\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand\u2019s children are getting a better start in life as a result of progress towards the Government\u2019s Better Public Services results, which include increasing infant immunisation rates so that 95 percent of 8-month-olds are fully immunised by December 2014, and maintaining this through to June 2017. The latest results show 89 percent of 8-month-olds have been fully immunised with their scheduled vaccinations, protecting them from serious diseases such as whooping cough and hepatitis B, and we are on track to achieve the 95 percent target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b69847cb0c864a5a9702aa6d3c2930ea\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What other work to protect people from preventable diseases contributes to the Government\u2019s Better Public Services targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222915244085834afba3fd69388b852bc6\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Very early indications from the Government\u2019s programme to reduce the incidence of rheumatic fever by two-thirds show a reduction in the incidence rate for acute rheumatic fever initial hospitalisations, but this is only one set of data, and so needs to be treated cautiously. For the second Budget in a row this Government has doubled its investment in the Rheumatic Fever Prevention Programme, from $12 million, to $24 million, to $46 million in Budget 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab8de7a9b9f8417592af4d0bdc0669b2\u0022\u003ESolid Energy\u2014Financial Position, Management, and Assistance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad98a963a61d44049af53488d8b6313a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad98a963a61d44049af53488d8b6313a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Given his statement yesterday that \u201CSolid Energy was another example of where the incoming National Government had to clean up a mess left by the previous Government\u201D, what was the level of debt held by Solid Energy on 30 June 2008 compared with the level of debt on 30 June 2012, and what is the total amount of dividends received by the Crown from Solid Energy since he became Minister of Finance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00222a1b98ffb17f4e07a1757e6e06996a96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a1b98ffb17f4e07a1757e6e06996a96\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The amounts are $15 million, $295 million, and $163.9 million respectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c295c7cf010b46b4b93ccfbf8ecd6273\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister of Finance aware that the Labour Government never approved of Solid Energy\u2019s lignite developments, because of dubious economics and greenhouse gas emissions, and that he, the Minister, turned the first sod on Solid Energy\u2019s lignite plant; and how is that the previous Labour Government\u2019s fault?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d98c1af9817d4f3c841e0f5fd0f08965\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is mixing up a couple of projects there. One is the briquette plant, for which I did turn the first sod because it created jobs in a community where 400 jobs had been lost. I know, of course, that the Opposition was against the new jobs in Mataura, even though a whole lot of the people in Mataura vote for the Labour Party. Now I am asking them why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd5a927157a45f2a819a967f12034b7\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a photograph of Mr English and a sod.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201448ffc3c9b4b07aeba32395df90e55\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, I am not prepared to put that leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5237390a4224e43809641286e5b3826\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that his National Government encouraged Solid Energy to expand its coal operations, take on more debt, and pay out higher dividends, all in the face of a falling coal price; and how is that the fault of the previous Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d5c10c40f8d4ce79fda28e675738d1f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say that Solid Energy did not need any encouragement. It had very large-scale plans for expansion, which the current Government disagreed with. Of course, we could have moved faster to slow down Solid Energy\u2019s investment, but when we did move, the Labour Party organised a protest on the steps of Parliament, which means that we do not take its complaints about this very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220557b3862b594e6cba0f58977d7f3a59\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document of Mr Brownlee\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284dcdd7bbd284dd193326923f43c12dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am not prepared to entertain this any further. Would the member continue with his supplementary questions, if he has any.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f99228329e2474baa88e4c4fb00de39\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it now out of order to table photographs that are inconvenient to the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255cda6e66b164b4e85371291bccda993\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is questioning a previous ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628853725f1c4df4b99bfb187e73d87a\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it out of order for members to seek leave to table photographs in this Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae176aaf43b4a57b128e6f4b5ec56e1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have given a substantial ruling on the tabling of documents. If a document is of assistance to members and gives them further, good information, I will allow the leave to be put. In this case, the member is attempting to play politics with a couple of photographs. I told him I would not put that leave. He continued his point of order, which is an abuse of the privilege of a point of order and will lead to disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b4c89efca134378809bfaa049fef7a3\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259abefcb893c410ea6d32e59cd5bbd46\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member has a right to raise a point of order, and it will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c982a759bc924bbeaa2ca3e069437351\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that we have had a Minister denying the promotion of coal, and a member trying to table a document that was promoted by a current Minister of the House and described as \u201CSexy Coal\u201D. It seems inappropriate not to allow a document entitled \u201CSexy Coal\u201D to be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba851bcf3064f55b15226e9055aec6e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, that member is now disputing a ruling I have already given, and I will take that very seriously if it happens again. Question No. 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b37d7db683b4d71a021e2e11880a98c\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a0e7be5bafc45f5a016b8cd0b64a962\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I had called Catherine Delahunty for Question No. 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcf689db56b74d539ba8932671f76c36\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What happened before was that David Parker was raising a point of order with you when you indicated that you did not want to hear it, so you moved on to the next question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022288f4c4952be4540bca94cbeb1fc323d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220748a9e35a7b40b384b3ecbbb514d890\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He had further supplementary questions. He had not at any point indicated to you that he had finished. Are you now saying that if you do not like something that is going to happen, you are just going to discontinue the question and move on? That is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222efffbedafd74f6cbc5fbde640742eea\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is quite right\u2014that is exactly what I am saying. If we are going to get into a situation\u2014[Interruption] Order! If we are going to get into a situation where I detect that a member is creating disorder, then I will move on. On this occasion I will allow David Parker to finish his supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290f285e316e7417082161b83c749070c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You said in your ruling that you had relied upon a previous Speaker\u2019s ruling. Can you tell us what that ruling is, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739c19f99cef49af92ef35cab687123c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not say I had relied on a previous Speaker\u2019s ruling. I said I had given a very substantive ruling some 2 or 3 months ago. I will send a copy to the member so he is fully aware of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48110f03fa94d6bbd139a9b6c0a9e8a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry. If I can just make it clear, it was a previous ruling of the current Speaker, not a ruling of the previous Speaker, that the Speaker was referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e649010a6065411395fcdc1072b53bef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And that is not a point of order. I have allowed David Parker to continue with his line of questioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15fda96e75645b2a4e01e27bce94084\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister of Finance\u2019s statement on Monday about Labour\u2019s criticism of his Government around Solid Energy and the Future Investment Fund, when he said \u201CThey need to show us who they\u2019re going to borrow the money off, which foreign bankers are going to lend us the money.\u201D, if his Government provides a loan to Solid Energy that is not from the Future Investment Fund, will the Government borrow for the loan, or is he just going to print the money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022246b394926644ce2b58a664668520ee4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Just as with student loans, we will be borrowing for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf6ddf464b2a45c3822b116db0974712\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Which is correct: that Treasury officials made a mistake reading the Cabinet minutes and appropriated $100 million from assets sale proceeds to \u201CSolid Energy recovery facilities\u201D, seemingly without Cabinet authority, and that this $100 million mistake was replicated in multiple Cabinet and Budget documents that he and other Ministers checked over and signed off in the lead-up to the Budget, somehow all missing the $100 million error; or that he is once again covering up for the misrepresentations by the Prime Minister, who feigned ignorance because he did not want to associate the Future Investment Fund with his Government\u2019s mismanagement of Solid Energy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c178adad7a9f416b9054fa60ccb83534\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The second assertion is nonsense, and the answer to the first one is that Treasury did not describe correctly what Cabinet had decided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022200a817c428347058e3f38ed82754a64\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the member, the ruling I gave, for the benefit of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, was given on 19 February 2013. The Clerk has found a copy, and we will pass that to the member for his information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002274d9dfc5bab54844a151b287a9d6795b\u0022\u003EMining in Conservation Areas\u2014Permits for Schedule 4 Land\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u002227f31cb6897e42e889c3b7e54bbfa762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227f31cb6897e42e889c3b7e54bbfa762\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Why did he grant a mining permit over Schedule 4 land in the Coromandel just six weeks after saying \u201CI do not think there is any ambiguity in our policy. Let me say again that we have a very clear view against mining on Schedule 4 land\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb2b542bfcdd4769a65ca901b5a7588e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb2b542bfcdd4769a65ca901b5a7588e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Because the mining permit granted to the Broken Hills Gold Company does not allow mining on schedule 4 land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc49924f074f4cfaa918c53624bf1d90\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Why does Broken Hills Gold Company require access to 3 hectares of schedule 4 land, split into two distinct areas separated by 150 metres, in order to build the one additional mine exit that this permit requires?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ea8e3490d1444b988c9cdeec20d33e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the member I do not have a mining fetish, so it is difficult for me to claim expertise on these matters, but, as I understand it, the reason is that a wider area is needed as they search for health and safety purposes to find where the egress will be, then it would narrow down considerably.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224896590dbc244303971f93e2712b651c\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a Parliamentary Library - prepared map that shows the two areas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e5e8e550154c8091b1b1453e1eef85\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! What is the source of the map?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a405cb3d5254547ae7fd13780a0da0b\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: The Parliamentary Library prepared this for me. It shows the two areas, unconnected, of 3 hectares, separated for one exit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cd438f7ca74db5831190d2ad19b9af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The easiest way of resolving this matter is that I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table that particular information prepared by the Parliamentary Library. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224abf1fa43e6f4045aadf8648cc4817ba\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister clear up the ambiguity in the permit conditions by removing the word \u201Cand\u201D in condition (b) that allows \u201Cmining underground and outside of Schedule 4\u201D so that it explicitly states that only mining underground that is outside of schedule 4 will be allowed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6f2cf8d5a648f5ad6bf570b0655b06\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for her legal interpretative skills and help on that matter, but the fact of the matter is that the permits are very clear. There is no mining on schedule 4 land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a8e97cf7bfe47258be63643e110d5cd\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Will he rule out granting a mining permit over the schedule 4 areas for which Sea Group Holdings Ltd currently has a mineral prospecting permit and Hawkeswood Civil Ltd holds a mineral exploration permit, given that there are no nearby mines that require these health and safety upgrades?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa407e99a01841bba863dd1cce2c3a9c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Off the top of my head I do not know a lot about the matters that the member refers to, but our policy, as she read out in the primary question, is very clear: no mining on schedule 4 land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fd891cbaf4847eeba05e180aed4f1d8\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Will he now be assessing mining permits on schedule 4 land on a case-by-case basis, and is this not an erosion of his unambiguous promise to New Zealanders that he will not allow mining on schedule 4?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c93690ede94a5bb027e4cd49caf8ed\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I think I have been very clear. Our policy is no mining on schedule 4 land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abc6016359df4ebe9f6338d97d250b76\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff4581d25fd94c3a9a3a55ee948510ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff4581d25fd94c3a9a3a55ee948510ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You referred me to a Speaker\u2019s ruling of 19 February 2013 by you. I have read this document. It has two pages. At page 2 is a final paragraph. Nothing on page 1 refers to any substantiation of your ruling here in the House today, and page 2 certainly does not, as well. I am trying to find out why you used this as a precedent to make the decision you made against my colleague Mr Parker. It is not this document, I am telling you now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002205a6de6140eb46a589e0ceb20785d0b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205a6de6140eb46a589e0ceb20785d0b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That ruling was very clear and was accepted by the House at the time. Where members seek to table a document that is genuinely informative, then leave will be put. Where a member is simply trying to make a further political point, that is not acceptable, and leave will not be put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022de37a8b9c88344799def09d16f256bc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de37a8b9c88344799def09d16f256bc3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the point that the Rt Hon Winston Peters fairly makes is that there is no absolute prohibition on photographs. There never has been, and I do not understand there to be one. In the context of a photograph that is 5 years old, which mine was, in respect of a Government Minister promoting the opposite of what a Minister has just said was the Government\u2019s position, I would have thought it is in order for leave to be sought and to be put to the House. The House is free to reject it. But I do not understand there to be a prohibition on political documents; it is just a prohibition on documents that are readily available to members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3374e8b60c5414084840074030f2388\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3374e8b60c5414084840074030f2388\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member now is questioning an earlier decision I made. I will decide whether leave will be put. If I feel the information is truly informative, I will certainly put the leave. If I am in doubt, I will tend to put the leave. But we are not going to have members taking up the time of the House attempting to make political points with the tabling of documents that I do not consider inform the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c52873685c704789a003e5e1f895302e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c52873685c704789a003e5e1f895302e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We are dangerously into an area where you literally have a parallel where a court says it will not accept a photograph as evidence. This is what the member was seeking to do. If we get ourselves into that situation, we will make ourselves a laughing stock around this country. I hesitate to go any further than to say if you read the last paragraph of your precedent of 19 February, it is not a source of authority for what you have said in the House today\u2014if you would like, I will read it back to you, because it is rather important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f55be0c2795f42eeb057b98ea574db82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f55be0c2795f42eeb057b98ea574db82\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Order! Listen, I have heard enough from the member. I have made a ruling on that particular point and that matter is finished\u2014[Interruption] Order! That matter is finished. The member is now continuing to question a ruling that I have made. I am not prepared to tolerate that in the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ed7888424ac4774b76e77e5ce4ad710\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Advanced Trade Qualifications, Diplomas, and Degrees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00227e5a6eadc818496784c8291ab636a98f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e5a6eadc818496784c8291ab636a98f\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment: What progress has the Government made on its Better Public Services target of increasing the proportion of 25-34 year olds with a Level 4 or above qualification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6ad88bc32ba45f6bee9ee5d5346bc02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6ad88bc32ba45f6bee9ee5d5346bc02\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Very good progress indeed. In 2012, 52.6 percent of all 25 to 34-year-olds had achieved an advanced trade qualification, diploma, or degree at level 4 or above on the New Zealand Qualifications Framework. This is up from 51.8 percent in 2011. That means over 8,100 more 25 to 34-year-olds gained qualifications at level 4 or above last year than in the previous year. The Government is working very hard to meet its target of 55 percent by 2017. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e89dd8bdb844d189e49fb9c6eb6cd3a\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What signals indicate the Government is on track to meet its target?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022a2b04c2ca47478df122cceb796d9c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, for this target the number of 22-year-olds achieving level 4 or above qualifications is a very important indicator for the progress towards the overall target of 55 percent. That is because, of course, people who were 22 last year will turn 25 in 3 years\u2019 time. In 2012, 34 percent of 22-year-olds had completed a qualification at level 4 and above in that year. That compares with 30 percent 4 years ago, in 2008, so that is encouraging progress. I am particularly pleased with the increase in achievement for M\u0101ori and Pasifika students. In 2012, 22 percent of M\u0101ori 22-year-olds achieved a qualification at level 4 and above, compared with 15 percent 4 years ago, in 2008. In regards to Pasifika, 26 percent of 22-year-old Pasifika students in 2012 had completed a qualification, compared with only 14 percent in 2008. So we are not there yet, but we are making very good progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d2dea02e9af4caeba4d2d87d780fa1a\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government focusing on increasing the number of 25 to 34-year-olds with a level 4 or above qualification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b83998e9d594a9897867fde49a5d80a\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: For several reasons: firstly, level 4 qualifications are the minimum standard of competency for many vocational occupations, and increasing the number of people with level 4 or above qualifications increases the skill levels in New Zealand workplaces and contributes to economic growth. A level 4 or above qualification also has a significant impact on an individual\u2019s income for them and, of course, for supporting their family. For example, the median weekly income for 25 to 34-year-olds in 2011, when they had level 4 to 7 vocational qualifications, was $106 more a week than for 25 to 34-year-olds without those qualifications. And, of course, a higher-level qualification also means people tend to be employed, stay employed, and spend less time on the unemployment benefit than those who do not have qualifications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259757e0ae9df40ab97996e160b3a73fc\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the 52.6 percent result he is trumpeting today means that we are now just about back to where the percentage was in 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d91d1d7e0b845ff9152d2e6249ac7a1\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not have the percentage that the member has in 2007, but, like most things, tertiary education was running off the rails in the latter half of the previous Government\u2019s job, so we had to turn it round and get some decent results, particularly with the money that was being wasted with all the \u201Cbums on seats\u201D programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240df66f56842440f88521385fb35d3b5\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: In order to be helpful to the House, I seek leave to table this table from the State Services Commission that shows that it has just about reached the 2007 level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eeb09967d8c416caf3269e134fc65a5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224759eec88de247d0b92c878c56861b09\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: [Interruption] Suck it in, Steven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ef0e75328e457e91ec00359b6a04cb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will just ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9c6772e7ca248258d4514676d9d20e5\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he think it is agreeable for members of his department to come to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee after having promised to provide a written briefing about the chief executive officer appointment process of one of New Zealand\u2019s most significant tertiary institutions, only to provide absolutely nothing and to be sent away as an ill-prepared bunch of overpaid officials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e9ad7a40014c38911b3d859bb7928d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! It is a question that is very wide of the original primary question. That is the difficulty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec5cffd1a834a0794b6c507aa5bd898\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is the Minister responsible for a wide-ranging level of responsibility. This is an incident that took place at a significant select committee. It is not unreasonable for us to ask him to give us his view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245bc60d3ca594b99ad69ea59f16afdfe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not an unreasonable point, but a supplementary question must be related in some way to the substantive question that has been asked. The way the supplementary question was asked seemed to me to be a long distance away. If the member can sharpen up his supplementary question so that it is connected to the primary question, I am only too happy to assist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221910965183214addaff91e1382c66e38\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to my colleague for interrupting. This is one of the broadest primary questions available. What progress has been made and how they are going to do it are clearly going to be a responsibility of a chief executive, about which the questioning is now happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6db0a9454094f96a734cae5cbdb7895\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think that particular point is a good try but wide of the mark. I will give the member, the Hon Shane Jones, the\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247f3e2553b404884a5815d223799bf7f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: The primary question reflects the words \u201CBetter Public Services\u201D. It is in the context of Better Public Services. How\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223777a3cf144740dd868a60e5e2e514d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am trying to assist the member. I am giving him a chance to ask a supplementary question related to this primary question, and I hope it is in order, for his sake and mine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d71b7570384d4abb9da7153b8755aae9\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Kia ora. Just some clarification, Mr Speaker: my understanding of the original question is that it was around the Minister reporting on a university that delivers education at level 4 for 25 to 34-year-olds. If that was the case, would that not make it relevant to the primary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fdf27c3efe24f4b9c193ce876db3666\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think it does, because the second question was then around the employment of a chief executive of a particular tertiary education institution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea0add67c69a4efc98e8145f510380e3\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How does the conduct of his officials in preparing for a briefing to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on one of our significant w\u0101nangas contribute to the Government\u2019s progress on Better Public Services targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1bdbcfc1f52453cb61e4697e5237814\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: My view is that their level of preparation obviously contributes to the targets. I think it is important that they prepare well and that they understand the various institutions and who has what responsibilities in the sorts of questions that they are asked. My understanding is that they may have provided that information to the committee accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ee88cf1db944b179c50a7fbd405eb1c\u0022\u003EChild, Youth and Family\u2014Resourcing and Response Times\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022a488f95498ca40368e82771d86a07a0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a488f95498ca40368e82771d86a07a0c\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: Does she believe that Child, Youth and Family have the resources they require to care for the needs of our most vulnerable children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022075f108884324a17a3879245055adbb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022075f108884324a17a3879245055adbb9\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Acting Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that Child, Youth and Family has been well resourced. This Government has increased its funding by nearly 15 percent over the last 4 years. We now have more social workers\u2014about 250 more social workers\u2014working with a bigger budget and investigating more cases in a more timely way. With the response-based interventions, there will always be times when resources are stretched, but I believe we do have sufficient resources to care for the needs of vulnerable children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdcb17ee8b8b43a4b65804168d8560c8\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, how does the Minister explain her response to estimate questions, which shows that the longest wait for a Child, Youth and Family notification classified as \u201Ccritical\u201D\u2014because the child was severely abused or was in immediate danger of death or harm\u2014was 5 days, when they are meant to be assigned a caseworker within 24 hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247defb03194f4a5baae44446634e1dac\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: It is important to note that the time frames that are referred to in the estimates questions referred to when recordings were made in respect of allocations, not in respect of the time action was taken or intervention was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221de56fcd33ec4a3c9137952c37473c7e\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain that the longest wait for Child, Youth and Family notifications that are classified \u201Cvery urgent\u201D\u2014because the child has been abused or neglected and there is a risk of further abuse or neglect\u2014was 31 days before a social worker was even allocated the case, when it is meant to happen within 48 hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022278930e3760646baa05ff4909181a75d\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: I can only repeat the answer given to the previous supplementary question. I do not have specifics around the 31-day matter that the member has raised. I am happy to check it and get back to that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463be5e2054843599c8cd679f5f6f6c1\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How also does the Minister explain the fact that the longest wait for Child, Youth and Family notifications that are classified as \u201Curgent\u201D\u2014because although the child is protected from harm in the short term, there is an allegation of abuse, neglect, or serious concern\u2014was 67 days, when they should have been allocated a caseworker within just 7 days?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807ae662ce224ab9a9cad57657dcd8bb\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the recording of interventions and who case managers are in respect of individual cases is not necessarily consistent with when the intervention was made or when that allocation was made. We can put it this way for the member. As previously said in answer to the primary question, there are 15 percent more funded allocations towards Child, Youth and Family interventions now than there were before. To just make an analogy, in 2006 we had 1,089 unallocated cases. In 2012 there were just 95. This is out of 150,000 notifications to Child, Youth and Family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e9bdae54fc4502b1259c9234d7fa5b\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Given these waiting times and the fact that since 2008 notifications to Child, Youth and Family that require further action have increased by 50 percent, or more than 20,000 cases, will the Minister commit to review the adequacy of baseline funding for Child, Youth and Family, as Labour did when it was in Government; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022408315b2ecea4891a3617a80af2dadc5\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: It is important to note that baseline funding is reviewed annually and this Government is responding in a very positive and popular way to the care of vulnerable children. A whole new strategy has been designed and is being rolled out currently and we are returning better results than have ever been returned before from Child, Youth and Family\u2014certainly far better, as illustrated in my previous answer to a supplementary question, than that lot over there did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221966fabe653247cca4b7d2d424536e44\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Reduction in Reoffending\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7d534cc6eed4d11a3117b40b277d9cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7d534cc6eed4d11a3117b40b277d9cc\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What progress has the Government made on its target of reducing re-offending by 25 percent by 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d68eb55d4a694986aee714536427de11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d68eb55d4a694986aee714536427de11\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to advise the House that Better Public Services results released this week show that reoffending rates are down 9 percent since June 2011. There are also more prisoners than ever before involved in drug and alcohol rehabilitation, employment training, and education programmes. These results are very encouraging and show that the initiatives this Government is rolling out across the Department of Corrections are having a real impact on reoffending rates and are making our communities safer. To put these figures in perspective, a 9 percent reduction in reoffending means there are over 1,600 fewer offenders and 6,600 fewer victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222562297868864b3cafdd4cb51482bd0f\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: What further initiatives is the Government rolling out to improve offender rehabilitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6025925e28c413e829dd4df360b9f96\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is determined to deliver programmes that address the drivers of crime: addiction, lack of employment skills, and poor education. As part of the reducing reoffending programme, every year we will be providing alcohol and drug treatment to 33,100 additional offenders and numeracy and literacy training to an additional 1,200 prisoners. To increase employment training, the Government is establishing full working prisons at Auckland Women\u2019s Prison, Tongariro/Rangip\u014D Prison, and Rolleston Prison. As part of this initiative work is under way to construct a building yard at Rolleston Prison, which will see prisoners repair 150 State houses from the red zone over the next 5 years. Prisoners will, of course, be provided with construction skills and qualifications that will help them find employment in the Christchurch rebuild on their release.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e38843176b74c279430049f7b756ab3\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to reduce the chances of a prisoner reoffending following their release from prison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b8e2639987404c93790937393d4c8f\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Prisoners are at a high risk of returning to crime as soon as they are released from prison. Around 50 percent of prisoners are back in prison within 4 years. In addition to the increased rehabilitation that we are providing in prison, Budget 2013 made $10 million available from the justice sector fund to establish the new Out of Gate reintegration programme. This new nationwide post-release service will see prisoners supported as soon as they leave a facility. Up to 4,000 prisoners serving a sentence of less than 2 years will be allocated a dedicated provider who will connect them to social services and help with accommodation, employment, and general living skills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fe972cd01934a84af70fa7517cee782\u0022\u003ETransport Planning\u2014Alternative Approaches\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u002282be39250e2f40bcbf2cc93e462ca6c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282be39250e2f40bcbf2cc93e462ca6c6\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does the Government believe that the future transport demands of New Zealand\u2019s three main population centres will be less dependent on roading systems and instead utilise a greater proportion of alternatives to motorways?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56e545999ba485f9faebf512fa32505\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56e545999ba485f9faebf512fa32505\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Neither of those positions is the Government position. We believe in an integrated approach to current and future transport needs, involving roads, rail, and public transport options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877423780e3b469ea79f75a0316e30ea\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government will not accept the need for alternatives to more road capacity to meet a greater proportion of future demand, upon what basis does it expect to satisfy future demand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44aa30fba14449cb3679fb32db0c0b4\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a great pity that the member did not hear my answer. I will repeat it for him. The Government believes in an integrated approach to current and future transport needs involving roads, motorways, rail, and public transport options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ddfc24d6a3b49e5a805a8ff019ea838\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government accept its responsibility to take a leading role in the development and provision of sustainable urban transport alternatives to roading in all of the main centres in the same way as it does for motorways, or does it expect local authorities to go it alone on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9cd50ca51334f10a94771f9bcd0f2b1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: In the context of our understanding of New Zealand\u2019s needs, we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994b1fe392a14b0584a4615f4057094b\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government see a place for much greater use of light rail in the main cities in the foreseeable future, other than just the\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6aa88f32204d59bdb422279a0f86df\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the member. Would the member please start again? I had difficulty hearing the question being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228919a717f1634ec4b183ed41a17a56de\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government see a place for much greater use of light rail in the main cities in the foreseeable future, other than just the completion of the Auckland rail loop, in order to provide an effective and affordable alternative to motorcars and motorways?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09849a9353048fbb54015c460a0f67a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is a very, very open question as to whether or not light rail in other parts of New Zealand would be an affordable alternative. The answer at this point is that we do not believe so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b2c35c32a4f40bdb609b27d0801e778\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: In evaluating the long-term costs of passenger rail systems against more motorways, will the Government include all of the real costs of motorways, including externalities such as road accidents, ACC costs, air and water pollution, parking, and associated land costs; and for all those reasons does the Government accept the need to give higher funding priority to the alternatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222232be0261b848a5bc5be79a34f690f8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: In the last measured year, New Zealanders travelled over 40 billion kilometres on the roads. That is not going to stop any time soon, no matter what the member might like to assert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dda74e8037c485b9277a00b3cd636b7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 12, the Hon David Cunliffe. [Interruption] Order! I would be reluctant to be asking a member to be leaving the House at this stage. I have called the Hon David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d695e163a1f41fcaa88ef41527024cc\u0022\u003EInland Revenue Business Transformation Project\u2014Cost of Consultants\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00229302a6f64c9f4886b173711611af5851\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229302a6f64c9f4886b173711611af5851\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: How much to date has been spent on consulting costs for the IRD Business Transformation programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00222454238967594094b433e2f5d443cec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222454238967594094b433e2f5d443cec4\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E The cost for the period 1 July 2011 to 31 May 2013 for consultants and contractors engaged to assist with the transformation programme is $29.1 million. By contrast, I understand that the Inland Revenue Department has a budget spend on information and communications technology of $162 million over the equivalent period, to maintain support and develop its current legacy systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022574d851ee59f475fbf32f28310ac5ef4\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that of that $29 million, over $23 million has been paid to one consultant, which is Capgemini, and can he explain what that vast amount of fees has purchased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f01bd13710ee4eb488569fb164f3991f\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: The last chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Committee wrote to the Minister and asked for information about that, and all information was given by the new Minister. I can answer that question because I happen to be both of those people. What I can say is that of the $29 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcd5a0e17c3e4959a6ebe5c3b9cf8bed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the Minister just get to the answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022892008dfddf64534935adfe697efc101\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Capgemini is one of the 23 companies that has contracted to the Inland Revenue Department on the Business Transformation programme, and it has provided around four contracts. The member is correct around that amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa35f0f9d8114c7a9bbfe9e37b6024fa\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Has Capgemini provided an estimated total cost of the Business Transformation project; if so, approximately what is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c08718cdb64e4c6dbf99c56fcd8b029e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not aware of whether that is part of the contracts that have been issued. We need to be a little bit careful that we do not get ahead of ourselves around total costs. This is an important project, with appropriate due diligence needed on it. We have around 7 million taxpayers in New Zealand. They have a right to expect value for money, and the due diligence we are going through at the moment will ensure the success of this project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f336350fe4cb46ca894d5186cf82e586\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister\u2019s department has already paid over $21 million to one consultant and has not received an estimate of the total cost of the project, does he consider that good practice; and what action will he take to ensure that the project is properly costed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297e7166a7086440d88e2d619b293bbb6\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: That was not the answer that I gave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c458f3747f94303829419202f347111\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Have the Minister\u2019s Cabinet colleagues been advised of the total cost of the project; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b013b2f8bf94b06873d14a221d616d8\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not a member of Cabinet, but there are ongoing discussions. Indeed, Cabinet was first apprised of this issue some time ago, and I expect additional papers to go to it later in the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293290c3557d64b67952e50eada9f8a10\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a summary list of all consulting spending on the Business Transformation programme, totalling nearly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228247f654a76d4132a5f86422c4627f6b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The source of the document, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b71236063f4fd09d619230b1551641\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It has been compiled from Inland Revenue Department documents by the Labour Party research unit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfbe26c3ba1c4b32bc10da6f61ce8e16\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220607b36b5ade42b6a22908706058c099\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a full list of consulting expenses from the Inland Revenue Department in relation to both the Business Transformation project and other matters for the last 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ec1f7741e447d69793a8904e62bb2e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The source of that document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223980c556ee734c2fb66484746898e109\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: From the Inland Revenue Department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b1a39565e7a4ee087ccacaea0f1c890\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it available on the website?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf642b82e0e84cc5aa981d124d1d9c20\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Not that I am aware of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fff45c08fae4cb8adddfbc9d2f89269\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On that basis I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table that information. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002272aabe687c8b4605bebcaf3a7abb8924\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c5ab0eb003e422ebf773c8e2132f250\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00228cdd21070a8449fda695b58f38951526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cdd21070a8449fda695b58f38951526\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. It is wonderful to be so popular on the other side of the House. Picture the scene. Picture the scene. Parnell resident\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290cc0db915c849f59119eecefe556714\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The level of interjection is unreasonable. There are too many bits of paper unhelpfully being waved at the back of the Chamber, and that will cease. I invite the member to start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220495b36f73b54cb39f141a677019b27c\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to start again, Mr Speaker. Picture the scene. Parnell resident and occasional visitor to the Helensville electorate John Key sits down in a room in his modest 15-bedroom electorate office to get an update on events in the area. He is surrounded by his closest advisers. He cannot remember any of their names and he does not know who they are. One of them looks like the Fletcher boy from high school, but he cannot be sure. He makes a note for Wayne Eagleson: \u201CAsk Saunders Unsworth who my advisers are.\u201D He seeks to get a briefing on what has been happening in the happy hamlet of Helensville: \u201CAny major developments?\u201D. A hush comes over the crowd, and a quiet voice whispers: \u201CA German has moved into the mansion.\u201D John Key is shocked. This is a development of considerable note\u2014\u201CA German in the mansion?\u201D. First things first, John Key says: \u201CWhatever you do, in no circumstances must anyone tell me the German\u2019s name. It is a matter of national security. It is a matter of national security, and I am struggling to remember all of the things I have got to pretend to forget, so don\u2019t tell me his name.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen arrives the figure of Steven Joyce, or, as we shall know him from now on, \u201CCorporal Jones\u201D. \u201CCorporal Jones\u201D appears, yelling: \u201CDon\u2019t panic. Don\u2019t panic. The Germans are coming. Don\u2019t panic.\u201D John Key sits calmly and says: \u201CI normally get my list of overseas migrants. Where are the Australians? Where are the Indians? Where are the Chinese? I am being told only about the Germans.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn John Key\u2019s Helensville it is Dad\u2019s Army all over the place. Well, on this side of the House, we say: \u201CWho are you kidding, Mr Key?\u201D. He tells us he cannot remember a very large multimillionaire\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219038dbe44af4143bf5bf87e3348df48\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Billionaire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256224033439d4f18b6dc72106456c330\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014multibillionaire\u2014German arriving in his electorate. He says that he cannot remember the man who put on the biggest fireworks display in New Zealand\u2019s history. But he does not know, because he is surrounded by his Dad\u2019s Army of advisers. John Key is surrounded by Steven Joyce as Corporal Jones. \u201CHe doesn\u2019t like it up \u2018em.\u201D, as he would say. \u201CHe doesn\u2019t like it up \u2018em.\u201D That is what Corporal Jones would tell the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut, you see, what John Key tells us is that he has a mandate to govern. Well, it is certainly true that John Key has been on a hell of a lot of man dates. He went on a man date with John Banks, and he got a seat in Parliament. He went on a man date with Ian Fletcher, and he got a job running the Government Communications Security Bureau. He went on a man date with the Skycity chief executives, and they got a whole law for themselves. Man dates are what John Key does, but someone else always wins out of them other than New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPeople who are associating themselves with John Key have another problem. Those who go on man dates with John Key have a major problem: \u201CPTD\u201D, or politically transmitted diseases\u2014politically transmitted diseases. Every time anyone goes near him, there is trouble. John Banks cannot even remember what day it is. He does not even know where he is. He cannot remember $50,000 worth of donations from the German in the mansion. Peter Dunne has completely lost his way\u2014totally discredited. And the M\u0101ori Party appears to have three leaders, or it might have two, and certainly after the next election it will have one or none at all. So politically transmitted diseases are the order of the day for anyone who comes into contact with John Key. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut on a serious note, tomorrow this House will debate the Skycity law\u2014the \u201CCasino Bill\u201D\u2014and there is nothing that is more of an emblem of this Government than that bill. It is a convention centre built off the back of problem gamblers; a convention centre that will add 8,000 additional problem gamblers; a convention centre built with a dodgy process, where the Prime Minister intervened; a convention centre built by selling off the laws of this country; and a convention centre that typifies a Government that works for vested interests and not in the interests of New Zealanders. This Government is a crony capitalist Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a733609d18874c57917adc999b8d73e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a733609d18874c57917adc999b8d73e6\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we know what Grant Robertson was doing last night. In between his desperate denials on Twitter, he was watching the JONES! channel. That was the inspiration for his speech today. It was his JONES! channel. The only thing is that he should have been Sergeant Schultz today, because he is the one running around saying \u201CI see nothing. I know nothing. There\u2019s nobody challenging for the leadership of the Labour Party. I know nothing at all.\u201D, when the reality is that there is a Jones channel, and the Jones channel is the channel by which the leadership challenge of the Labour Party is being conducted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EIt has been a fascinating 24 hours in the identity politics of the Labour Party. First, we had the man ban, then we had the ban of the man ban, and then, very nearly, we had the demise of the man who banned the man ban. That is where it nearly got to last night, and it is where it is heading again today. Despite the denials\u2014the many, many denials\u2014the reality is that there are three of the men who were going to be banned in the man ban who have decided to take their opportunity and step forward. I say stand up those men who are against the man ban\u2014Shane Jones, Andrew Little, and Clayton Cosgrove\u2014the red meat men of the Labour Party, who are, as we speak, either circulating or not circulating, or denying they are circulating, a letter of no confidence in the leadership of the Labour Party. That is what is going on right now. The red meat division has decided that this is its chance to get its own back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EBut those members did not quite succeed. All they succeeded in doing yesterday was causing a massive Twitter explosion last night. There was a massive explosion on Twitter, where nearly all the Labour Party caucus, except Shane Jones, except Andrew Little, except Clayton Cosgrove, and except a bunch of other Labour Party members, were on Twitter last night saying \u201CNo, there\u2019s nothing happening here.\u201D, and Annette King was even on the radio this morning saying: \u201CNo, there\u2019s nothing happening here.\u201D Well, you know what you say about denials. \u201CDe Niles\u201D is a river in Egypt, and the reality of the situation is that the Labour Party is heading towards a leadership revolt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EMr Shearer, of course, is desperately trying to shore up his leadership, and today he has made a significant bid in that regard. He has decided that the vote for jobs and growth tomorrow will be a conscience vote for his caucus, and he welcomes people who want to vote for the New Zealand International Convention Centre to do so tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223beab52aa9444f3ba234f28ef598a741\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: That was the Speaker\u2019s ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222cddd0c79ae4b30b1942216cdee4455\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker has ruled\u2014absolutely right\u2014but go and check. There has been a statement released by your leader this afternoon, where he has said that if members of his caucus want to vote in favour of the convention centre tomorrow, they are welcome to do so. Of course, most of them will not be voting in favour, but it will be interesting to see who does, and I think it is yet another test of this man\u2019s leadership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House it is pretty clear. On this side of the House we are in favour of jobs and growth for New Zealanders. Every day this Government proves that, and tomorrow is just another day when we prove that we are in favour of jobs and growth for New Zealanders. But not the modern Labour Party. It used to be like that. It actually supported a convention centre being built in a very similar arrangement 10 years ago, but not today\u2014not today. Those members are caught up in identity politics and are focusing on the man ban. Well, tomorrow a few of them\u2014the few middle-of-the-roaders left\u2014have an opportunity to stand up and say: \u201CActually, no. We are in favour of jobs and growth, and we should go forward and say so.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThere are three or four of them who might do that. Obviously, they would then have to turn their backs on Grant Robertson and David Parker, and so on. But, for example, the \u201Cfab four\u201D who attended the Eden Park discussion with Skycity in the corporate box\u2014[Interruption]\u2014or was it six, or was it eight\u2014will have the opportunity to do so, and we will know whether there is anybody left in the Labour Party who supports jobs and growth or not. So tomorrow is a test of Labour Party caucus members. It is yet another day of a test of the Labour Party leadership\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224693202f0ff84719a4a585d9b40f4d5e\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: This is a very long 5 minutes, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bebc4a34f9334364924d7ad47ac546b6\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I will finish by saying that I thought that in the audition for Mr Grant Robertson just now, he got more laughs in 5 minutes than his leader has had in 18 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca9d0d77783a4c31bc3c0f79bc83b9bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca9d0d77783a4c31bc3c0f79bc83b9bf\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start off my contribution this afternoon by thanking you, Mr Speaker, for the decision to hold a conscience vote on the Skycity bill tomorrow. I am distressed to hear the way that the National member Steven Joyce has treated the issue of conscience votes. When it has been agreed that a conscience vote should be held, it is the right of each individual member to make the decision for themselves. It may well be that most members from a particular party decide to vote the way that their leader believes they ought to vote. There are lots of reasons why that may be the case. The nature of the vote and the fact of the vote are of less consequence than the right of each individual member to vote according to their conscience. That is the right that members have when the Speaker makes a decision as he has done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis means that Auckland now has the ability to take real action on the Skycity deal as well. Auckland people who are opposed to this deal now have a genuine opportunity to speak to their local representative, from whichever party, and say to their local representative: \u201CWe believe that this deal should not proceed, and we would like you to represent our views when you vote tomorrow on this bill.\u201D It is a genuine reflection of the democracy that allows the members of the public who are most affected by this issue\u2014that is, those who live in Auckland\u2014to talk with their MPs, their representatives, in a genuine way, to say: \u201CWe would like you to vote like this.\u201D The Speaker has given those MPs the opportunity to reflect their constituents\u2019 views\u2014their constituents\u2019 views. For that we are very grateful, and we would like to see this continue through the whole process of this bill. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EActually, my contribution today was intended to be not so much on Skycity but on the issues of gender, because the National Party has such a poor level of representation of women in Parliament. [Interruption] I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is very difficult to continue my speech with the conversation that is being shouted across from one side of me to the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022666f3210c2d2432986aa21b2a312af6e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would members cease the interjections, because it is distracting to the member who is speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ec072a682048eeb201579cf811121b\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Why is the National Party lagging so far behind when it comes to women\u2019s representation? Last term, 29 percent of its caucus were women; this term it is 25 percent\u2014one in four. It is lagging behind. Do you know what we heard from the National Government\u2019s Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs, Jo Goodhew? Do you know what she told Morning Report just this week\u2014on Friday, actually? People should be selected on merit alone, said the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs. She said that New Zealand had a proud history of women succeeding on the basis of their competency. Is Minister Goodhew really saying that of all the women in the National Party, only 25 percent are competent enough to be MPs? Is that what she is really saying? Does her attitude explain why it is that the Government has this miserable target for the private sector boards of having only 10 percent of private sector boards being women? Is that because the National Government\u2019s Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs believes that only 10 percent of women who are in business are competent enough to be on these boards? In terms of partners in law firms, an area particularly special to my heart, only 16 percent of women lawyers are partners. Does Jo Goodhew believe that only 16 percent of women lawyers are competent to be partners in law firms? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is very proud of its record of having a majority of women in our caucus represented in this Parliament, because we believe that representation of women is absolutely critical. We believe that women do have all the skills and capacity to be representatives in this House, for this House to be genuinely a representative democracy, and we make sure it is possible\u2014we make sure it is possible\u2014unlike the National Party, which is actively, obviously, excluding women from the opportunity to hold positions of authority in its party. There is no commitment in the National Party to any kind of representative democracy. It prefers a male-dominated elite to be making decisions and to be sucking resources to that male-dominated elite, and leaving women, leaving their children, and leaving all of those others who are entitled to be represented here out in the cold. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2fc369db40c40699f8a9eb43e2824fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2fc369db40c40699f8a9eb43e2824fa\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E What a joy to follow the lecture that we have just received from that member, Metiria Turei. Oh, for goodness\u2019 sake! Honestly, I was so, so enthralled with her lecture that I almost forgot that last night she was so busy lecturing us that she forgot to vote against the legal assistance legislation that she had railed against from one end of the country to the other. It was wonderful to have her support in the final moments, so that, in fact, the bills went through unanimously. So well done, Ms Turei, well done\u2014you are finally seeing some sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBut I have to say that that presentation on merit and how bad it is was pretty amazing. To say that over here the women are\u2014what? We are dominated by the men? I think that is a bit of a joke. Unfortunately, what I can see, though, is that in the Labour Party, of course, it is, in fact, all about the man ban. Why is it that with the three different factions in the Labour Party all vying to take the leadership, not one of the leaders or deputy leaders in contention is a woman? Why is that? Of course, the reason is that they are always chosen on merit. That is why it is; it is clearly on merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI thought Ms Moroney did brilliantly on The Nation last weekend. I am looking forward to her coming on again next weekend, and probably Q\u002BA, as well. It was so much fun, I even taped it. It was fantastic. I played it again just in case some people missed it\u2014and they really should see it. I have no idea why she is not allowed to turn up in the media more often. It must be because she is a woman! That is what it is in the Labour Party. That must be the reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBut, of course, David\u2014what is his name? David Shearer yesterday\u2014[Interruption]\u2014well, that is what they asked on Morning Report yesterday on Radio New Zealand National. They said: \u201CWhere is David Shearer?\u201D, because for the first time in living memory, I think since the 1930s, when the Labour Party was first set up, a Labour Party leader refused to go on Morning Report. How does that happen? How does that happen? He refused to go on because he did not want to talk about Ms Moroney\u2019s very good attempt to bring in the man ban. It is so clearly needed because Labour has only two women on its front bench, and, of course, we have got three. Of course, our three are equal to about six of them when it comes to merit. But having said that, why is it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAll the last week we have watched as the Labour Party has imploded and it has talked about the things that nobody cares about\u2014in other words, getting rid of men, not letting them compete equally against women, and turning them into an endangered species, if they were not already within the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E But, of course, what have we been doing? Well, we have had a bit of fun, I have to say, amongst all the work, and most of that fun has been at the expense of Labour members. But we have also been getting on with the job of government, thinking about what it is that the people of New Zealand want. They want jobs. There is the convention centre deal, which I am sure those people in the Labour Party probably will end up voting for. I am sure that Phil Goff, Clayton Cosgrove, David Shearer\u2014and who else\u2014Annette King, and Kris Faafoi will want to vote for the convention centre legislation. They were very happy to take the hospitality of Skycity the other week\u2014why was that\u2014after they had been bagging them day in, day out in the media. Of course, what they did was stay there all night, just to tell them off. It is amazing what those poor people endured. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe are also into bringing the crime rate down, and this last week we announced our Better Public Services targets. What can we say? Under Labour, prisons got full. Under National, crime is coming down. Youth crime has dropped 18 percent since June 2011\u2014a fantastic rate. Total crime is down 11 percent. Reoffending is down 9 percent. Under Labour, what was happening? Violent crime was going up, and reoffending was going up. Labour made no progress. Poor Miss Moroney is still trying to get a question in the House. Why can that woman not get a question? Why is that? It is because she is not on merit\u2014no, she is on merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238877de3438c4f21a2283f7fa4ef975f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The woman has a name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c1bcdff5bf4ef6af9432948b7ccb22\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: She has, and she deserves it, because she has helped us in Hamilton West to make it a safe National seat, and before that she did the same for Hamilton East. I think that is an outstanding record, and I am looking forward to her doing it again in Christchurch East, because apparently it is that member whom the hierarchy want to be there. That, of course, will be on merit\u2014yes, absolutely. I see the Tui billboard coming on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI am so proud to be a member of this National-led Government. It is working well and getting on with the business. It is talking about the stuff people want. What we are doing is we are getting the crime rate down, getting jobs for people, bringing the economy further up, and actually undoing some of the rot that Labour left us with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00220632f2d2b5ff40f19d6120715ebeb46a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220632f2d2b5ff40f19d6120715ebeb46a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was an intriguing speech from Judith Collins, a woman who has a Twitter account that 99 percent of people assume is a parody because it is so bizarre and so random. I take offence at her lecturing Metiria Turei about the merits of women, after she tweeted last week: \u201CWhat a vile, vulgar, ugly speech Metiria Turei gave, just like her jacket.\u201D\u2014just like her jacket. How is that being a role model for women in this House, when apparently the jacket that a woman wears is more important than the substance of the speeches that she gives in this House? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to inform the New Zealand public that that Twitter account is not a parody; it is real. That is how scary it is. She actually believes those things that she is saying on that account. I think that Ms Collins is on wafer-thin ice when she lectures anyone on this side of the House on the merits of women and respecting the role of women in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt has been interesting to see the focus of the National Party. One of the issues we want to talk about on this side of the House is power prices. In 1 year disconnections have jumped by 10,000. Mr Simon Bridges, the Minister of Energy and Resources, said: \u201CThere\u2019s no problem. Nothing to see here. That\u2019s OK.\u201D Power prices have continued to increase at double the rate of inflation, despite flattening demand, despite the surplus of supply, and despite a collapsed carbon price, and Minister Bridges says: \u201CThat\u2019s OK. It\u2019s all fine. Nothing to see here.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is unfortunate that it has been left to Simon Bridges to deal with this issue, because he is the Justin Bieber of the National Cabinet. He does not take these issues seriously. What he has been saying consistently is that power prices are not too high. We said to him: \u201CWell, then, what would be too high?\u201D. He replied: \u201COh, I don\u2019t know\u2014I don\u2019t know.\u201D That is not an appropriate answer from a Minister of Energy and Resources who is overseeing a jump in disconnections of 10,000. People cannot have power connected over winter because they cannot afford to pay the power bills, and the National Government has no plan to do anything about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI suspect that Minister Bridges would think that power prices were too high if he could not afford to pay the power bill. I suspect that that is the real answer to that question. National members will think power prices are too high when the massive tax cut they gave themselves is no longer enough to pay the power bill. But the unfortunate reality out there for most punters is that as winter kicks in and as power bills are landing in letterboxes, family budgets are being stressed, and the National Party is saying: \u201CThere is no problem. There is nothing to see here. Please look the other way, because that is certainly what we are doing.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the most extraordinary statements from Minister Bridges was: \u201CWell, we just haven\u2019t given the Bradford reforms enough time to bed in.\u201D Given that he was not even born when they first came in, I do not know how long he needs to show that they have utterly and completely failed to deliver the competition and the price reductions that were promised at that time. They have failed. They have not worked. They do not need time to bed in. They need to be reformed. They need to be changed. Tinkering will not help. A Labour Government is the only Government that is going to be prepared to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMinister Bridges\u2019 answer to this is always: \u201CWe have this fantastic What\u2019s My Number campaign, so the fact that people are able to switch power companies and go and find out all the different options proves that there\u2019s competition.\u201D Firstly, if there is such great competition in the market, why do we need to throw millions of dollars at a What\u2019s My Number campaign, in order to improve competition? But, more important, what does that programme do for the poorest families in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022843a0734bee141fca402b016452db2fc\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282dd33099d9748bfaa9938409a40b955\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing. Do you know why? Because the families that I am dealing with every single day at home, who cannot pay their power bills, are lucky if they can find one power company to pick them up. The idea that they could have a choice of power company\u2014[Interruption] Anne Tolley, who has moved from Gisborne to \u014Chope Beach and so is hardly ever in Gisborne now, does not realise, perhaps, just how hard people are doing it in Gisborne. The local fire service tells me that it is seeing an increase in house fires because of people using little gas stoves to cook on and candles to light their homes. Maybe she needs to spend a little bit more time in Gisborne, to get some idea of how hard people are doing it there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe reality is that most families in that position cannot find one power company to take them on. So when they hear the National Party and Anne Tolley lecturing them, saying: \u201CWell, just change power companies. You have a choice.\u201D, they realise just how out of touch this National Government is. Those programmes do not help the poorest families. Simon Bridges, the Minister, does not care about those families\u2014neither does this Government\u2014and that is why the Labour-Greens NZ Power policy is the only policy that is going to deliver for the poorest families in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u002234771dde6ac44dd8a9dea08ee3a3c224\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234771dde6ac44dd8a9dea08ee3a3c224\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E It is a complete joke for that member, Moana Mackey, to be lecturing the National Government on power prices, because the Government that she was a part of raised power prices from 1999 to 2008 by 72 percent. So if she is complaining about the price now, that is because power prices went up under her Government. Under this Government, power prices have gone up by only 16 percent. So when Labour members say that they have got the answer on power prices, they know that they are dead wrong. Quite frankly, there is a word for that beginning with \u201Ch\u201D that would describe anything they say about electricity prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThose people over there are truly the unelectables. There is no question about that. When you look at the options once David Shearer goes, it is not a very pretty sight. Grant Robertson was doing his leadership audition here today, and I must say that it was not too bad, really, if you wanted a light comedy routine. But when you team him up with Andrew Little and Shane Jones, you have got three guys\u2014two of whom cannot win an electorate seat and the other one is completely unelectable as the leader. So I reckon that although they might be happy individually, they are in a pretty bad space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EWhat I think is really disgraceful is the way that they are acting towards their leader. If that Twitter explosion from last night was not treachery at its worst\u2014and if those denials do not actually signal that the coup is on\u2014I do not know what is. Grant Robertson is pretty happy because he has convinced David Shearer that he is allowed to answer only one question each day. That is why, 37 times since he was elected leader, David Shearer has come into this House and said: \u201CPrime Minister, do you stand by all your statements?\u201D or \u201CDoes he stand by all his statements?\u201D. That is the one question that David Shearer asks every day, and the rest of the time he is totally dazed and confused. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI think that the Labour research unit is pulling David Shearer\u2019s chain. It is conning him completely, because, quite frankly, it is not giving him a fair go. Grant Robertson there is not supporting his leader. He cannot wait for David Shearer to go. David Cunliffe was up there today having a go. Who else was there? There was the other fellow\u2014Shane Jones. Shane Jones is suddenly back in the game because he knows that the coup is coming and it is all going to be up for grabs. Even Darren Hughes\u2019 landlady might fancy herself as making a bit of a comeback. It could be anyone. The good news is that they are all completely unelectable, so it is good times ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe one man they do really want to ban is David Shearer. They want to get rid of this guy, but there is no one there with the steel and the political nerve to actually grasp the chalice. If Grant Robertson was up to it, he would never have let Shearer get that job in the first place. That is the fact of it. Grant cannot do the job. Old what\u2019s-his-name Shane Jones is not up to it either. He had his chance. So, really, there is not the next Labour Prime Minister in Parliament at this stage, and that is a very big problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ETomorrow we are going to be voting on the Skycity Casino legislation. That is going to be a conscience vote, and I am looking forward to Phil Goff, Kris Faafoi, Clayton Cosgrove, and David Shearer all voting for it because they would not want to look like hypocrites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256d7eaba9b0242a19fbdf7f56e6dd292\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Annette King.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286556c1110b8440e8877f74e6ec5ba7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, and Annette King. You would look like a bit of a hypocrite if you went to the Skycity box, if you drank all night, and if you ate all night, and you came in here and voted against the legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc39786491e4f5bb499fe4474b05f75\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was in the Chamber last night when the Chairman of the Committee ruled against the use of the word \u201Chypocrite\u201D. I am surprised that you did not pull the member up, particularly as I could have thrown that back at him as a member who went to a corporate box with a tobacco company\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd6736ef4b3418e8078c7e5fa044992\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member is quite right. The word should not have been used, and I ask the Minister to stand and withdraw the use of that word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218e9f163ebbf4b7ea8df7d784ef406b9\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw, but I think you get the gist of what is going on. So, anyway, those guys over there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d6287c08274c4e9926b86a02f1d4fe\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. He cannot then comment on your ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022233684cccbb14517a20783e278421c17\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. Would the member, now that he has withdrawn that comment, just continue his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222e504dc3a3f4e718aa4421c21d691aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. But, as I was saying, those four Labour members were at the Skycity box, so, of course, morally, they are compelled to vote for the legislation tomorrow, because Annette King is for jobs and growth, and Phil Goff is for jobs and growth. Grant Robertson is not, and he is the only option Labour has got as the leader for the future. The more it gets bogged down in things like the man ban, the less it is able to connect with the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI can tell you a story. A lady I know in Auckland, a friend of my family, had a couple of plumbers around last week, and they said: \u201CWell, I guess it\u2019s the last you\u2019ll be seeing of us.\u201D She said: \u201CWhy?\u201D. They said: \u201CWell, the way it\u2019s going, if Labour ever gets into Government, we\u2019ll have to send only female plumbers here.\u201D The point of this story is that once the plumbers and the blokes driving the white vans are getting the message that the guys over there are against the \u201Cblokey tradies\u201D, as Shane Jones calls them, those guys have lost. So I think that with the man ban thing, Labour has conscribed itself to the wilderness for a decade, I would say. It is looking pretty bad for Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, over here, we are focusing on the economy\u2014the best economic growth in the OECD bar Australia\u2014the jobless rate being down, inflation being down, and good economic times. We are looking very good. Those guys there are absolutely hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd3f0c9e696641b480537ac5e82e7e5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd3f0c9e696641b480537ac5e82e7e5a\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Honourable members, today I want to talk about an issue of concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dc5b5e6a8a1459fa3f67bad7d791ba4\u0022\u003EPaul Foster-Bell\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a9716d93f944b6a8736c244344298bc\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: That issue is crime, Mr Foster-Bell. We are all very aware that some of our citizens fail to behave in accordance with the law. So New Zealand, like every society, has to live with a certain amount of illegal and dysfunctional behaviour. Human perfection is not likely to happen any time soon. Accordingly, our society must be able to marshal such levers as will influence people to abide by the law. These points need to be made because right now in New Zealand it is plain that many of those who break the law in a serious way are getting an uncertain message about how unacceptable their behaviour is to law-abiding society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ELet me mention a few recent examples. Darren Murphy Fidow, age 18, brutally attacked an 82-year-old woman. He was sentenced to only 11 months\u2019 home detention. John Richard Cox received 6 months\u2019 home detention and 150 hours\u2019 community work for making incorrect tax claims for his clients without their knowledge, which amounted to a fraud of well over $400,000. Eru Michael Timoti, 27, a factory worker, had sex with an under-age girl for over a year, knowing that it was illegal. He was sentenced to 200 hours\u2019 community work and 18 months\u2019 intensive supervision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EIt would be inappropriate for me to comment in detail on any specific criminal case, but what is apparent is a clear pattern of extremely serious crime resulting in sentences that would strike most New Zealanders as lenient\u2014as lenient. Justice must be done, and it must be seen to be done. We place great trust in our judiciary\u2014we do. Those appointed to the judiciary in New Zealand are people of the highest calibre\u2014the highest calibre. But, ultimately, if people believe that sentences do not reflect the harm that individuals in society have suffered, confidence in the whole judicial process will suffer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EHas the Government directed judges to avoid prison sentences because of the cost and serious overcrowding? That is a good question for the Minister of Justice to answer. The public are rightly concerned about what appear to be lenient sentences, and they are questioning the validity of our court system. The public can be forgiven for their scepticism. They can be forgiven. Is something going on here? What are we not being told? Is lenient sentencing a covert way of saving money? Is leniency an undeclared way of keeping prison populations down? Is it? What we do know is that the public take crime very, very seriously. New Zealand First takes crime very, very seriously. In relation to crime, we must all stand together\u2014we must. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EEarlier this week we watched in horror a chase on television. The chase started in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki and went all the way up to North Auckland. That chase took over 3 hours and shut down the motorway for 14 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64ebd79661d462ea76844ff4fbf5eff\u0022\u003EHon John Banks\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b73b20b532d4fe8995968656c2c28f5\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: 14 hours, Mr Banks. Do you remember something now? New Zealand First wants to commend the New Zealand Police for its handling of the extremely dangerous situation. But it does raise yet more concerns\u2014it does raise more concerns. Let me put it in plain language: it means that the Minister is asleep at the wheel\u2014it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a6ee881d1874b65b8ca2f47765726e8\u0022\u003EHon John Banks\u003C/span\u003E: Speak up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2414c942ffb406ebdef45eb0b88865d\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am speaking up for that, as you can hear. You cannot even remember half of the story, Mr Banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E It means our police force is under-resourced. It means our community safety is hugely compromised. It means the Minister and the Government are turning a blind eye to the huge number of unreported incidents and unrecorded crimes. There are just not enough police\u2014there are just not enough police\u2014to cope with the demand. The Government should stop boasting about the crime rate coming down, because we have got prisons overflowing with prisoners. New Zealand still has one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world. How can our prisons be overflowing if the crime rate is coming down? How can you expect the prisons\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e2ce35731946ebb952b9428c5fbdb8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise for interrupting the member. The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022 data-id=\u00226f45d7e7dd80434eb7aa4c891d6b04bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f45d7e7dd80434eb7aa4c891d6b04bb\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E What a soul-destroying rant from the list member from the \u201CNew Zealand First, Winston Second Party\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EWhy is the Leader of the Opposition not here this afternoon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91c4de222e14221b2b9f61f25488358\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5b8ba5baec4860b2d9737be684ab0d\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I will not, Mr Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition needs to get up in the House and take calls like this to defend his position. It seems to be that I have never seen a Labour Party in such disarray. In 10 Parliaments of being here, I have never seen a more dejected, reduced-to-nothing, hopelessly out-of-control, miserable specimen of an individual than the leader of the Labour Party. Why is it that his bench mate Grant Robertson, \u201CThe Toad from Toad Hall\u201D, looks so happy? In the A A Milne book Toad of Toad Hall, Toad of Toad Hall looks so happy. He looks so happy because he is creative and he is devious, but he is self-centred to the point of sociopathy. He is self-centred. The \u201Cmember for Vivian Street\u201D is happy today because he wants to take over the mantle of the leadership\u2014the remnants of the leadership\u2014of the Labour Party. But he is completely lacking in common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EToad of Toad Hall is known as someone who is always clever, devious, educated\u2014over-educated\u2014and over-competent, but lacking common sense. That over there is \u201CThe Toad from Toad Hall\u201D, who would be the leader of the Labour Party if the poor joker\u2014to use the vernacular, the Leader of the Opposition has just finished a long visit to the taxidermist. He is finished. It is all over. I have never seen anyone so dejected. I have never seen anyone so miserable. He sits there at question time, he eats peanuts, he chews his fingernails, he feels out of depth, and all he is saying is: \u201CIf only I were in New York with my secret bank account, it would be so much better than this place of purgatory.\u201D But \u201CThe Toad from Toad Hall\u201D, the grunter from Vivian Street, is there. He is ready to take over, and he would be an equal disaster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EIn A A Milne\u2019s book it says: \u201CWhen the Toad came down the street howling, the streets were full of people jeering at the sight.\u201D That is what will happen with that leader. So we get rid of the hapless Mr Shearer, and we get the \u201Cmember for Vivian Street\u201D in charge of the Labour Party. That is where Labour members belong\u2014in Opposition for a long, long time. They can have their Mo\u00EBt champagne at Skycity; they can have their secret bank accounts in New York; they can have their hapless, hopeless, and useless leaders; and they can have their very earnest little chief Government whips. But what they cannot have is any constituency out there that represents common ground, common sense, investment, growth, or jobs. The Labour Party is in a bad way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EA day before I entered Parliament in 1981 there were four women members of Parliament. The day after I entered Parliament, 10 Parliaments ago, there were eight women members of Parliament. Today there are 44 women members of Parliament. What we need are high-quality women members of Parliament, like the two I am looking at now and the one who is behind me\u2014the three on this side of the House\u2014Mrs Tolley, Mrs Upston, and this lovely member over here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c7a29af9df40418a207dd49b501ec0\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us her name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224745a82c0d414239b7af94ac9d38e09c\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: What is wrong with that? On their own, those three women would be an Opposition demolition team, and they would not need \u201CThe Toad from Toad Hall\u201D, the \u201Cmember for Vivian Street\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EIs it going to be Shearer, Robertson, Cunliffe, or Little? We on this side of the House do not care, as long as they stay where they are. As long as no one cares, because no one up and down the country cares, this Labour Party is in disarray from the grassroots up. Worse, by cuddling up to the Greens, Labour has become a party intent on destroying business, growth, and jobs, and more content on staying over there, and that is not all bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227970727407ee4e268222361c6599a6bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227970727407ee4e268222361c6599a6bc\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E When Mr Banks gets back to his office, he can reflect on where he went wrong with that speech. He went wrong right at the point that he decided to introduce Parliament to the women on the National side of the House. He got two out of three, and he could not remember the name of the third one. At that point it went wrong for Mr Banks. We know that his memory is not particularly good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EJohn Banks could not remember being flown in Kim Dotcom\u2019s personal helicopter to his mansion, where he met the giraffe and got given $50,000. The same man put on a fireworks display for Auckland, but John Banks could not remember. Kim Dotcom is the guy who put on the biggest fireworks display Auckland has ever seen. John Banks sent him a note to say thank you, and then claimed he could not remember. And he could not remember Melissa Lee\u2019s name when he was speaking. That is the point at which his speech all started to go very, very wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIf I were John Banks, I would not be talking about secret bank accounts or Skycity. Bear in mind that John Banks is the man who pretended not to know that Skycity gave a massive contribution to his campaign. He said he did not know about it, even though they personally handed him the cheque. Well, I do not know about you, but if someone gives me a cheque for $15,000, I generally tend to remember that. That is not the sort of thing I would forget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWho else have we had from National today? Well, we have had the great Mount Albert maestro, Jonathan Coleman. Jonathan Coleman\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022250fa5da339c48c1becf787e159a89df\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: He wishes he could forget things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f329082fc6a9435b9ab86c21f0616cbc\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: He wishes he could forget things. He wishes he could forget the Mt Albert by-election. Jonathan Coleman decided to give us a lecture on corporate box etiquette. When Jonathan Young was the Opposition spokesperson on health, he took money from the tobacco industry and decided to blow smoke in their faces in their own corporate box. Who else did we have? Well, we had Judith Collins. \u201CCruella\u201D herself decided to make a contribution. I want to know why Judith Collins had to speak after Steven Joyce. Has the deal already been done? Has the succession planning already been mapped out for the National Party? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe deal has been done. We know that John Key does not want to stick around after the next election, so has the deal been done? Yes, they have stitched it up. It is going to be \u201CCorporate Jones\u201D, Steven Joyce, and \u201CCruella\u201D, with the Dalmatians lined up behind them. That is the deal. It is another deal that National has done behind closed doors, a lot like all of the other ones that John Key is so keen on doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EJohn Key cannot sit down for a meal without whacking New Zealanders with another massive bill. Every time that man sits down for a meal, New Zealanders end up paying. He sits down with Warner Bros, and there is a law change that they pay for. He sits down with John Banks\u2014another dodgy deal\u2014with Peter Dunne, with Skycity. Every time John Key meets somebody, he does another dodgy deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI found it very ironic that Jonathan Coleman decided to ask why it was that David Shearer always asks John Key whether he stands by all of his statements. [Interruption] Well, I will answer that for Jonathan Coleman. It is because for the first time in New Zealand\u2019s history we have a Prime Minister who has to think about it. He actually has to pause and think about it: \u201COh my goodness, what did I say? What did I say?\u201D. He has to think about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI found this comment from John Key very, very revealing, when he was talking about his relationship with the parliamentary press gallery. He said: \u201CI\u2019ve found in my time as Prime Minister I\u2019ve had less engagement with the press gallery simply because I do not mislead people, so I have to answer the question if they ask me a question.\u201D So his solution to dealing with the press gallery is that he does not want to mislead them, so he just does not talk to them. He just avoids the question in the first place because he does not want to get caught out not telling the truth, which has happened so many times before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is simply intent on doing all of the dodgy deals that advantage its mates. It is not interested in the issues that hard-working New Zealand families care about. Power prices are going up all the time, and this Government says it does not have a problem with that. It thinks the power prices are right for the environment\u2014that is what National says. Actually, New Zealanders are saying that they do not think that is right. This is a Government that wants to take hundreds of millions of dollars a year out of the electricity industry\u2014out of Transpower, in particular\u2014in dividends and force New Zealanders to overpay for their power. This is not a Government that is concerned about the issues affecting ordinary New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3544d93194c440e97299294de343a40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3544d93194c440e97299294de343a40\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E One would have to stand in the House this week and ask what the most important issues are for hard-working Kiwis. Well, according to the Labour Party, it is whether or not its caucus of\u2014how many\u201433 has enough women, or, actually, whether there are too many men. That is the issue that it has been talking about day after day after day. And you know what? It could not even count. It could not even count the number of women it has now, so good luck with getting to your 45 or 50 percent\u2014I hope you can count by then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ELet us actually quote from one of its own. Josie Pagani, who was a candidate for the Labour Party, says that Labour is \u201Cstuck talking about \u2018man-bans\u2019 and social engineering rather than jobs and social mobility. How have they let this happen again?\u201D. I think that says it all. It just shows, actually, how the Labour Opposition is so disconnected. It is so out of touch. It is not listening to hard-working New Zealanders. This side of the House knows that John Key\u2019s team is leading in the issues and getting results in the areas that matter to New Zealanders: having safer communities, having higher levels of education, having more of our youngsters in education in the first place, having more jobs, and having an economy that is growing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis week the National Government actually reported on its Better Public Services targets. Not only do we talk about things; we deliver results. We deliver results in the areas that matter to hard-working New Zealanders. So last week, up and down New Zealand, Labour supporters were picking up their jaws off the floor when, instead, Labour was talking about man bans. It was quite interesting because, to quote one of the other commentators, Kerre McIvor said in the Herald on Sunday that policies count, ovaries do not. So, clearly, the Labour Party cannot find any policies, it cannot find anything that resonates with New Zealanders, so it is going around counting ovaries. Well, I do not think that matters to hard-working Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House\u2014and I am proud to be a female member of the National caucus\u2014we measure on merit and performance. Not only do we select on that basis; we then measure the results that our Ministers are achieving. I want to\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI was not going to go there, but let us do it. There is a bit of a competition in the National caucus, and that competition is who gets to stand against Sue Moroney in the next election, because in every single seat she has stood in our majorities go up\u2014our majorities go up. So there is a competition\u2014a demand competition\u2014for who gets Sue. When it comes to the Christchurch East selection, which is coming up, I actually think that the Christchurch East selection has driven this man ban because Labour does not want Clayton Cosgrove as its candidate. It is kind of interesting if you look at who are the ones who have come out with the letter this week. If you look at some of the names involved and if you look at the list that Labour put up last time and how that 50 percent would have worked\u2014surprise, surprise\u2014David Parker, Shane Jones, and Andrew Little would not have made it based on a fifty-fifty list. So they are actually only covering their own butts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI am really proud of the Better Public Services results that our Government is achieving. If you look at our line-up of strong women Cabinet Ministers, they are looking after the areas that count for New Zealanders: looking after justice, looking after police, looking after corrections, looking after education, looking after a whole range of issues like social development, looking after families, looking after children\u2014those are the issues that matter to New Zealanders. That is why I am proud to be sitting on this side of the House delivering results, not focusing on petty things like whether we have got enough men or too many or what they have got between them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u00224436ea4119da42eeb6486ed3325c430d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224436ea4119da42eeb6486ed3325c430d\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Back to reality. There is a whakatauk\u012B in Aotearoa that says: \u201CWhatungarongaro he tangata, toit\u016B he whenua\u201D. It means \u201CPeople perish, but the land remains\u201D. I want to talk today about the consensus amongst New Zealanders outside this House that looking after the environment for ourselves and for all living things is more important than destroying it. However, whether the land remains or not has become a dubious question under this Government, as more and more of the land is opened up to block tenders, applications, and exploration permits of all kinds. However, they are out of step, these people who are running our country, with what New Zealanders have built a consensus around for many years. Although we disagree on many things, and although we now face one of the most unequal societies that we have ever seen, there is still a core at the heart of our commitment to our environment. New Zealand citizens of all stripes know that without the environment, there is no economy, and without the economy, the people, and the environment together, we do not have a future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESo it is very sad to hear the Minister of Energy and Resources today unable to answer my questions in the House\u2014and, indeed, last week\u2014about the details of his portfolio, because we do need some leadership around protecting the environment for future generations, and it is not going to come from this Government. In 2010 there was a very, very strong expression of the values of our country when 30,000 people marched down Queen Street and 40,000 people wrote submissions against mining in conservation land, specifically schedule 4 land. That was an amazing expression of resistance to \u201Csexy coal\u201D and \u201Csexy gold\u201D. What it was was a statement that there are things that we value together that are more important than the narrow, extractive, 19th century vision of how to build a country. The Government had to change its strategy because it had such a clear message from the people of this country. I was proud to be one of the people at the front of that march. On that day I saw a huge diversity of people express the values that the Government has decided to ignore. The Government has done that in a really interesting way. Because it could not win up front, it has done it through the backyard. It has done it through the manipulation of the Crown Minerals Act and through incursions into schedule 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESo I would just like to go through some of those interesting strategies of the Government after 2010. In its single economy plan, which is to facilitate the multinational mining industry, it had to find a way around the enormous public opposition to this plan. It had to find ways to undermine the public commitment that it had made and that it continues to say it makes to this area known as schedule 4. So what the Government did was change the Crown Minerals Act\u2014that was one of the major tasks\u2014in order to hoodwink New Zealanders into thinking that it was committed to no mining, but actually it created a law that facilitated joint ministerial decision-making over the Department of Conservation estate. It also gutted the Department of Conservation estate; that was easily done in the Budget. Then there were also other strategies such as paying for aerial surveys over the country to see where the minerals are, so that the Government can help the mining companies get hold of them, and, indeed, doing things like beefing up the Crown minerals section of ministries involved in energy and resources and putting out tenders for block offers, basically begging foreign, large-scale mining companies to come in and take advantage of the minerals, which it was determined to allow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EBut it also had to do something to undermine schedule 4 without anyone noticing. I live in an area called the Coromandel, where we notice everything. Although the Minister of Energy and Resources was in short pants when I started working on mining\u2014I have been doing this for 30 years\u2014the people of my area, both younger and older, are very, very clear about what is happening to schedule 4. So, basically, how do we get around the fact that there is supposedly a mining ban, but we want to send a signal to the mining industry that mining is great? We do that by doing things like allowing drilling inside schedule 4 land. The Minister makes statements about the difference between exploratory drilling and drilling for mining because he does not understand the industry. Actually, drilling is drilling, and what they do is send a tube down into the earth. They find out what is there and then they decide whether it is worth mining or not. And the Minister has said they can do that in schedule 4 land, in the most precious part of Aotearoa, where there is the strongest biodiversity, where our endangered species live, where our iconic landscapes are, and which should be set aside for future generations, which it allegedly had done. But, no, they are drilling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESo drilling is fine, and drilling is the new normal in schedule 4 land. What we have now today is that mining\u2014a dodgy mining permit, which allows all kinds of activities and which is supposedly just in an exit shaft but is, in fact, not\u2014is allowed on schedule 4 land. Watch this space\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00221dfee67ee2e34a53aa71598b0b7ac131\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dfee67ee2e34a53aa71598b0b7ac131\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002200d7a0b99a7d401ab4bac98285198429\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200d7a0b99a7d401ab4bac98285198429\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E There was something in Catherine Delahunty\u2019s speech that I quite liked and I actually am going to use it. It was \u201Cback to reality\u201D, because obviously Catherine Delahunty\u2019s reality and my reality are actually quite different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn a week while Labour has been suffering a leadership crisis, or, shall I say, an identity crisis over that whole disaster over the man ban stance, National has actually been getting on with managing the country\u2019s finances and working hard to deliver a brighter future for all New Zealanders. In fact, during Labour\u2019s leadership crisis\u2014and we have heard from previous speakers all about the Twitter feed and all that sort of stuff\u2014we have been putting through clear plans to support and grow our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWe have also been very, very carefully listening to Kiwis and what they want. One of these demands has been for better transport systems in Auckland. People have been demanding better transport systems in Auckland because we have such a congestion problem in Auckland as well. Just last week our Government kick-started the next generation of Auckland\u2019s transport projects. These projects will cost in excess of $10 billion and will make a huge difference to the congestion on our Auckland roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the things that actually happened in Auckland last week while Labour was busy talking about the man ban and leadership challenges and all that sort of stuff\u2014possibly with a letter going around their caucus\u2014was I was wondering where the leader, Mr David Shearer, was on Saturday, because it was the reopening of the Mount Albert train station. He is, after all, the MP for Mt Albert. Being the list MP, I actually turned up to the blessing ceremony where the local iwi was blessing the new train station, making sure that people who travel on the train are safe, but he was nowhere to be seen. \u201CMr MP for Mt Albert\u201D, David Shearer, was nowhere, and you could sort of wonder whether maybe he was at home watching Sue Moroney perform on The Nation to make sure that she said the right things about the man ban. Perhaps that is where he was. He was not actually present at the 10 o\u2019clock opening ceremony and ribbon-cutting ceremony either. You sort of wonder how stressed Mr Shearer is, and my heart does, in fact, go out to him. He is actually under a lot of stress, worrying that there is this massive target on his back, that his caucus will actually stick him with a knife and actually turf him out, perhaps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWe have got a clear view over this side. This National-led Government has a clear view as to how to manage our economy and how to make sure that New Zealand has a brighter future. But, over there, Opposition members are into only that whole Mickey Mouse thing within their own caucus as to who is going to lead them. Perhaps they have to worry because, as previous speakers said, it has been a long time since the Labour Party has had a real leader. Perhaps that is the reason that Helen Clark keeps on tweeting them and texting them, to give them some ideas on what to do. Maybe then they might actually have a real leader very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205a1fee5a4c2474f99e370df7be4dfb5\u0022\u003EProhibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff2b14e9dd56475c89370675705bd53f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000335\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 12 June.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adfd270d6d404c9e82bae19cefb45355\u0022\u003EPart 1  General provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00220e6e17c5a8ec4baaa0913bfd4b8c9428\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e6e17c5a8ec4baaa0913bfd4b8c9428\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is once again my duty to rise and talk on this completely ridiculous piece of legislation, the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill, which ought to be an embarrassment not only to the member in the chair, Mark Mitchell, but, in fact, to the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI just want to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to a very simple remedy to the problem, because here we are spending the Committee\u2019s time, taxpayers\u2019 money, looking at a piece of legislation that will deal with one iota of the problem, when the rest of the problem is out there\u2014the problem about which the Government said: \u201CWell, we have people turning up to the Government offices and some of them are wearing their gang patches. So we need to pass a law to stop them doing that.\u201D Well, you do not have to look too far past today\u2019s New Zealand Herald\u2014usually a very good newspaper, usually accurate in its reporting, at least on general stories\u2014and here on page 8 is a very fine photograph of the Napier District courthouse. Here we have a photo of a chap leaving the courthouse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to a little sign on the doorway of the Napier courthouse. On the sign on the doorway it says: \u201CNo Gang Patches or Insignia\u201D. Apparently the Napier District Court can do it, but everybody else needs this House to pass a law. I do not know of any report of any problems with gangs turning up to the Napier District courthouse and causing a problem. The registrar at the District Court\u2014probably a couple of judges, too, maybe even some sensible people at the Ministry of Justice, maybe some sensible people at the Sensible Sentencing Trust; I do not know, but maybe somebody\u2014had this brilliant idea that they would put a sign on the door because they wanted to stop people from turning up to the Napier District courthouse in their gang patches. In fact, I can report to this Committee that they are not alone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are some other Government premises, the managers of which have had the brilliant idea to deal with this nefarious problem, which has burgeoned across the country, of people in gang patches turning up to Government premises, and they have put notices on the door. And do you know that there has not been a single report in the newspapers of good repute\u2014sadly, Truth has now met its demise, and that might say something about the reputation of that paper, or at least its editor, the most recent one anyway. There has never been a report in a newspaper of good repute that has reported on trouble with gang members with gang patches and insignia turning up to those public buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the question has to be asked: why is it\u2014how is it\u2014that we have to detain all the members of this House, and use the House\u2019s very precious time, to consider this piece of legislation, knowing that it is confined to Government buildings? These are the very buildings whose occupants have the power\u2014and they have demonstrated that they use it\u2014to put up little signs saying: \u201CNo one with gang patches here\u201D. That is unlike the proprietors of children\u2019s playgrounds, unlike those who are the custodians of beaches and other public places without any structures, who will have no power to give notice, even under this legislation, to those who would wear their gang patches and insignia and turn up and maraud across the innocent citizens and the burghers of those places where those beaches and children\u2019s playgrounds are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhy do we waste our time on legislation like this? This is window dressing; it is not substantial. It will not make a blind bit of difference, as the good people of Whanganui found out. All they did was shift the problem somewhere else, and that is what this piece of legislation will do. If this Government is serious about dealing with the problem of gangs, let us see a law that deals with the gang problem. Let us see a law that gives people the ability and the power and the rights to stop gangs and their criminal enterprises in their tracks. Let us assist the police with their powers to do that. But let us not pretend that dumb legislation like this is going to make a blind bit of difference when all the evidence\u2014the evidence on the record and in reputable publications like the New Zealand Herald\u2014shows us that a little notice on the door is all that is needed to deter the evil, nefarious gang patch and insignia wearers from doing their dirty business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill is wasting our time, and that is why on this point, with this bill, knowing that it will achieve nothing, knowing that it will do nothing, we will continue to oppose it and wait for this Government to do something sensible and meaningful about the real problem, which is about the criminal nature of gangs and the criminal enterprises that they undertake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00221df95c9490494af7809fea489309b814\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221df95c9490494af7809fea489309b814\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Um\u2014I call the honourable member Mike Sabin. I had to think for a while, mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9b6091a62aa418a885558c2749451c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9b6091a62aa418a885558c2749451c9\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I could not possibly comment on your choice there, but thank you very much for the privilege and opportunity. The member Andrew Little, unfortunately, takes after his name in the sense that he has tried to belittle the issue of criminal gangs, of organised crime in this country. There is nothing more certain in my mind than that the proliferation of gangs and the drugs that they peddle, the money-laundering, and the crime and misery that they have wrought on New Zealand society are nothing more than an out and out disgrace. Every single effort that we can actually put forward that undermines their ability to perpetuate the intimidation, the crime, and the misery that they bring to New Zealand society is a positive thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EMr Little seems to suggest that courthouses have little signs and therefore all other Government buildings can have little signs as well. If Mr Little had spent a little bit of time in the real world, he would have actually seen the challenges of gangs, and the one area that is dealing with them more than any other Government department, of course, is courthouses. There have been stabbings, shootings, beatings, and the like in courthouses\u2014inside the courthouses, outside of the courthouses\u2014and for a long time they have had rules on the wearing of gang patches. The rules are not always because of the fact that the gangs are actually beating up innocent members of the public who may be waiting in the gallery or may be waiting outside the courtroom. They are beating up fellow gang members from opposing gangs, because that is what gang members do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhat happens is that the violence is created because of the fact that when a gang member wears a gang patch, it is about identity, it is about mana. To them it is everything. It encapsulates everything that they are as human beings. That patch is so important to them. So courts have long decided that to avoid that sort of confrontation they would have a \u201Cno gang patch\u201D requirement inside courthouses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe big difference between a courthouse and a primary school, Mr Little, is that in a courthouse they have court security. There are plenty of people who, with a few seconds\u2019 notice, can respond to the outbreak of violence. The difference is, Mr Little, when we see the ability of a courthouse to enforce the rules\u2014and, trust me, they cannot always enforce them. I have been called to the courthouse on numerous occasions to remove gang members who are wearing patches, taken their patches off, put them back in the cells, and put them back upstairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c083b690004bcf8fc91862ca24ab66\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So who\u2019s going to enforce it in a primary school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226133b06c40794c2585b50e78cb0d53e3\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the police can enforce it, because obviously when gang members wear patches in there, according to this bill\u2014and it is a very good question, Mr Hipkins\u2014the police will be able to respond very promptly and will be able to come in there with the power of arrest that this bill will provide and take care of that. But the point I want to make here, Mr Hipkins, is the difference between how a courthouse tries to operate and is dealing with it, compared with the many other Government departments or Government buildings that this bill will actually give effect to. The difference is quite significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe idea, though, that in the local Inland Revenue Department office, or at Mangonui Primary School, or at Kait\u0101ia Intermediate School a teacher can wander up to a patched-up gang member and say \u201COh no, you must remove that.\u201D and they will say \u201CCertainly, ma\u2019am. I will comply with that order immediately.\u201D is just ridiculous. It just does not happen. It just does not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273de554f5c0e41439e1130526028a94b\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: But if she turns up with the bill in her hand she\u2019ll be fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fd92a1906994b8898c4a2b6c4ae0091\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have some respect for Mr Little, because he does actually make some learned comments at times. But I am afraid that on this occasion Mr Little has gone right off tangent. This is really what we see in this bill\u2014the fact that the Labour Party has gone right off tangent. Its members are out of touch with what New Zealand society is saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI am very interested to hear what the member Louisa Wall will say about this, because she is making a big stand on party pills and recreational drugs. But, of course, what gangs do is deal in illicit drugs. So I am sure that member will be wanting to make some very strong comments about gang members and the proliferation of gang members in her electorate and the significance of the gang patch to the gang member. I would ask that member to tell us what she believes the importance of a gang patch is to a gang member. I would welcome that call from the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the problem of gangs in New Zealand there is nothing that will convince me otherwise than that this bill is going to have a positive effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u00226d57291403b54eebbb2cfd74e9a938fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d57291403b54eebbb2cfd74e9a938fc\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a first call in Part 1 of the Committee stage of the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill. It is a member\u2019s bill. My contribution to the discussion will very much be about looking at what this piece of legislation is trying to achieve, which is to prohibit gang insignia on these premises: Public Service departments, the police, Crown entities, local authorities, and through the select committee process the committee members added schools, because they deemed schools to be part of the State sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EIn responding to the previous speaker, Mike Sabin, I would like to talk about what he talked about, which was about eradicating gangs. This is not a purpose of this bill, in fact. Nowhere in this bill do we talk about eradicating gangs or why gangs were created in the first place. He made a very good point about why people end up choosing to be in gangs. People choose to be in gangs\u2014according to people like Kim Workman, who has worked in this area for a long time\u2014because they are isolated. They have been, for want of a better word, dislocated from their families and dislocated from their communities. So whether we like it or not, gangs have served to fill a collective identity that some people, yes, take pride in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the Chamber are very aware of what gangs do. We do not support the activities of gangs\u2014absolutely not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fdf61a1eeb4e97ac2155243bde3334\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, the member does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245732f1f2a7d4b8cbe5acc72ee1994f4\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not, actually, but I have a bit of recognition about why they exist in the first place. So if we are going to analyse how they were created, that is one thing. But if you were really interested in the issues about gangs, then why is there not a purpose in clause 3 in this part about eradicating gangs, and addressing some of the fundamental issues about people who end up in gangs because they come from abusive backgrounds? Why are we not talking about staircasing people from prison into vocations, into housing, into a better and more productive lifestyle? That has got nothing to do with this piece of legislation. All you want to do in this piece of legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090641d2f16d4030a1a19a2493a650f3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228755941336ce49feb476c53f9a72bde2\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL\u003C/span\u003E: All this piece of legislation wants to do\u2014sorry, Mr Chair\u2014is to say that if you are wearing an insignia, then we are going to fine you $2,000. What a wonderful solution that is! How many of those people do we think will actually pay $2,000? When you look at the whole bill, it is not very big at all. This is it. So someone with an insignia who is in these public places is going to be fined. Big deal. What does that mean, then, in terms of trying to assist people who find themselves in circumstances, as I have just said, where gang affiliation has become a normal way of life for them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EThe other point I wanted to make clear in my contribution was that the commentary we made on this particular piece of legislation is very clear that the Government already has the tools to address this issue. My colleague Andrew Little made that clear by showing you\u2014even today, in the New Zealand Herald\u2014a sign that courts can put up that prohibits the wearing of gang insignia. What we were really clear about is that under the Summary Offences Act of 1981, section 3 makes threatening behaviour an imprisonable offence, section 4 makes offensive behaviour a criminal offence, and section 21 states that people cannot intimidate anybody. So we do have tools within the current legislation to deal with this issue. I think that is our major reason for opposing this piece of legislation, because it is not needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003ESo if the member in the chair, Mark Mitchell, wants to get up and talk about the rationale for this bill, where did it come from? Who asked for it? Why have we got this piece of legislation before the House? Surely there is some evidence about the need for it. The only evidence that I have heard from my colleague Moana Mackey in reference to some of the conversations in Whanganui is that now there are a whole lot of gangs that want to be added to the list that is in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba5c6bd1b2f8456fb3abb49d8d7a446a\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Because it\u2019s cool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e99d0efc9f154ba6b3ee0fd5139cc292\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because it is cool for gangs to be listed in a piece of legislation. Well, if that is one of the outcomes of this, then, actually, that is pathetic. That is a pathetic rationale for this bill\u2014that we can have gangs that want to add their names to this piece of legislation. Obviously, that is Part 2 of the bill, where there are going to be certain powers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002211bf95036aa44a34bc05c6364e3fc28e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211bf95036aa44a34bc05c6364e3fc28e\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a call now just so that I can address a couple of the issues that have been raised. But before I get started I would like to refer to an article written by Anna Williams. It is in relation to an interview that she did with the Mayor of Marlborough District, Mr Sowman. He said that \u201Cfive people had reported seeing patched\u201D\u2014this relates to last week\u2014\u201CMongrel Mob members in public, including at a netball game at Horton Park, in Blenheim, and in supermarkets. \u2026 \u2018The community needs to combine together with police to make them unwelcome to ensure there isn\u2019t illegal activity in Marlborough,\u2019 he said. \u2018There\u2019s an old saying if you take away the oxygen from the flame, it goes out and that\u2019s what we need to do. \u2026 These people who wear patches, they won\u2019t give them up easily,\u2019 he said. \u2018The patch gives them identity and they won\u2019t want to lose that. I have no sympathy for them.\u2019 He planned to talk to the Marlborough police area commander to make sure everything was being done to ensure gangs did not thrive in the region.\u201D So this is an issue that does affect our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI would just also like to briefly mention that in my speech in the second reading of this Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill\u2014and, of course, I acknowledge the Hon Todd McClay, who brought this bill to the House\u2014I spoke about an incident that I had to deal with personally when I was down in Rotorua. It involved two young girls who had been attacked by prospect Mongrel Mob gang members and patched gang members as well. That is going back 12 years ago. Some people would say to me: \u201CWell, you know, we have moved on. Is this really still an issue?\u201D. Yet I was sad to read in the media, reported through the The Daily Post in Rotorua 2 weeks ago, of a young girl who was attacked by four Mongrel Mob prospects walking through the grounds of a school. She was raped, pretty savagely attacked, and physically damaged. Of course, she will be emotionally and psychologically damaged as well. So this is still a real clear and present problem that as a country we have to face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of whether there is current legislation in place that can deal with this\u2014no, there is not. The legislation that is in place at the moment\u2014and Miss Wall made a very good point on this\u2014however, requires an action. It requires gang members to actually do something to meet the elements of the offence, whereas what this bill does is allow the police to come in and take action purely off the fact that a gang member is wearing his patch. I would like to bring us back again and remind us all in this Committee actually what that patch signifies. The patch signifies that someone has got into a gang\u2014and gangs, unfortunately, use our youth; they are recruiting from our youth. Sadly, the youth see this as a way of identification, the camaraderie, and the rest of it\u2014that sort of collectiveness that you were talking about. It would be much nicer if they could get that through a sports group, through a sports club, or through a community group rather than a gang. I come back to what that patch means. What the patch means is that they have to have achieved a pathway of committing crimes, and normally violent crimes, against our communities to get themselves to the status where they are awarded a patch and they become a patched gang member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EFor some reason in this country over the years\u2014I do not know whether we have become desensitised to it or whether we have just learnt to live with it\u2014we have actually allowed these people to walk around with patches on, which clearly say to the rest of us: \u201CHey, we have committed offences against you.\u201D I think it is time as a country, as we say, that we use every chance that we have to say: \u201CYou know what? We are not going to accept that any more. You are not going to wear patches around. You are not going to\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb31f34acb9445db9ec9ef78bd134ad\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022787d458308fc4e818727a0b952e36009\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Chairperson. I think these are the important points we really need to think about when we are talking about this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I just wanted to point out very quickly is that we had a very good trip, the Law and Order Committee, down to Christchurch recently. Kris Faafoi was with us. We were talking to the police there, and they spoke about\u2014I think they are called\u2014the domestic protection orders. Do not quote me on that; I am pretty sure that is what they call them. What they allow police to do is go to a violent domestic and they can remove the offender without actually having to rely on, or have a complaint generated from, the victim or the complainant. So they remove the onus, and they remove the stress of the complainant or the victim having to make the complaint. The police can just go in there and remove them under these domestic protection orders. And actually, Kris thought that was a great idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a62f42d1b345aaba298ca2d345f8ff\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fc596f557fc43d1b73b049300ce63c6\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. Mr Faafoi thought that was a great idea. Well, actually, this bill is exactly the same principle, as it removes the onus of a member of the public, someone working in a Work and Income, an administrator or a receptionist at a school, or a teacher at a school from having to actually generate a complaint. They do not have to do that. [Bell rung] The minute a gang member walks on to a school\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6112aa1c1244abab73ae03e6448419f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6112aa1c1244abab73ae03e6448419f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Is the member seeking another call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ed9fa0bd06441c97b3458a9bc35412\u0022\u003EMark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is fine. No, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3916b69f5d4e74aeaa5ddddd20d76e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member has to sit down. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3b705cf0adc4d1aa5b50e6242fa514f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3b705cf0adc4d1aa5b50e6242fa514f\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairperson. Thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution at this Committee stage of this Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill. It is really unfortunate that we are wasting parliamentary time and resources on this really redundant piece of legislation, because the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill is a totally ridiculous piece of legislation. It is unnecessary. These situations are already covered by existing laws. So it really is a waste of time. It is actually quite an embarrassment, really, that the Government has put this member\u2019s bill up to occupy parliamentary time that we would much rather spend on more productive things for our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI want to start off by saying that I do a lot of work. Obviously, I have got a very big patch down there in the South Island. My good colleague there Mr Mitchell was referring to Marlborough, the great region of Marlborough and Te Tau Ihu, the top of the south, which is not exactly known as the most racially harmonious region of New Zealand, what with the Marlborough Express cartoons of recent times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI wanted to take this opportunity to display some people that I know. I know that it probably will not be able to be viewed by the people at large, but here is a M\u0101ori man. He is M\u0101ori. He is wearing a motorcycle jacket. There are all sorts of insignias and other badges on this jacket. Oh! There is even a tino rangatiratanga badge on there. If you saw this gentleman in an emergency room of a public hospital or maybe in the grounds of courts or justice buildings, potentially this gentleman here could trigger the provisions of the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill. He could activate the powers of the State to call in the police constable to come and assess whether this gentleman here is part of an organisation or a gang that is listed in the appropriate section with specified gangs that are all listed there in the relevant sections. This is an example, I guess, of what the Government would like to prevent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI will show another one. Let me pick this one here. I am very good friends with this gentleman here. Again, he is M\u0101ori, wearing a motorcycle jacket, he is part of a chapter, and he has even got an Arab-looking scarf wrapped around his neck. That could have very negative connotations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b50221cb66094b42a534b684e0a3a209\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his gang?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221645b3de361b454e89e33dcb2665030f\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! It is very intimidatory\u2014very intimidatory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E The gang that this man belongs to, Mr Sabin, is Rangit\u0101ne ki Wairau in the Marlborough Sounds. He is the chief. He is an iwi leader. He is an iwi leader of Rangit\u0101ne ki Wairau ki Te Tau Ihu o Te Waka\u2014an upstanding citizen. The other gentleman whom I mentioned is a highly decorated\u2014a highly decorated\u2014soldier who has served our country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222336f248661649f196ceaeef0538722b\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fine. Is he wearing a gang patch or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229130a6f83da54bd6af3c6dc5e16e9eb4\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, on the face of it. What would a member of the public think? Perhaps\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa8d4fd263dd41459c246b2776f4ae73\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Not on the face of it. Is he wearing a gang patch? Has it got gang insignia on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4420bc134d4a32a0b6cc7ef7992460\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: It fits the profile, Mr Sabin. It fits the profile. It just makes a mockery of this ridiculous piece of legislation. I could display a lot of pictures. But the thing is, these gentlemen are part of the chapter of the Patriots Defence Force Motorcycle Club.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ef4c8c741a43029f6fc6cb653c2265\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Are they listed in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f678b856dc74c3887dde0b7d8c85cf4\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: They fit the profile. They would activate the suspicion, potentially, of this ridiculous piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857870e3953a432ba576dbc69cad6996\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: No, they wouldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b398bc3255f4338a24c4b568fd3d2cd\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, they would. The thing is that those gentlemen, those upstanding citizens, actually do a tremendous amount of work on their Harley-Davidsons, on their revved-up, scary-looking, big, burly bikes, up and down the country every November for White Ribbon month, spreading the message that violence against women is a terrible thing and that we have got to stamp it out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db69bb7ba0ae4a71adb0f472c5210e72\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Are they listed in there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1d7858116d44d05b48ce087d550c9f9\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: It does not matter that they are not listed in the bill, Mr Sabin. Do you think that everything has to be prescribed\u2014that you can cover every situation, every gang situation, because it is set out in the definition of \u201Cgang\u201D? It is ludicrous. There is always the catch-all or other provisions to catch others. But I am saying that these people are upstanding citizens. They love to congregate and associate with others in their motorcycle club. They visit schools. They are welcomed into schools. In fact, I welcomed a whole big group of the South Island tour going into a public hospital. Far from having people actually thinking that these people were intimidating\u2014there were a lot of M\u0101oris with big leather jackets and big insignia on them\u2014they were welcomed and they were treated as real heroes because they are doing good work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EAll I am saying is that that makes a mockery of this piece of legislation. The fact that a big M\u0101ori man, and he may even have a t\u0101 moko\u2014he may even have a t\u0101 moko\u2014is wearing a leather jacket with insignias and writing all over it saying \u201Cmotorcycle club chapter\u201D from wherever part or region he comes from means he automatically comes within the profile and the ambit of this legislation, of this ridiculous bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8b9bcddcb214878a15f1e40cba0adf9\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: Not if they\u2019re not on the list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227796c6176bf74a5c8297f6bfe34b135e\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: They do. It does not matter that they are not on the list; they potentially fall within the ambit of a person, a member of the public. And it would be a waste of time, it would be an absolute waste of taxpayers\u2019 money and time, for the police to be called up, to rush along to the hospital or school where this chapter of this motorcycle club is revving up its engines. Then they would have to say: \u201CWell, is this so-called group within the definition of \u2018gang\u2019 within this prohibition of gang insignia legislation? If so, we will have to require those gentlemen or those thugs on those motorbikes to remove their jackets and any other memorabilia that they have.\u201D It is absolutely ridiculous. It is an absolutely stupid piece of legislation because this is already covered by existing provisions elsewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThe other thing\u2014I just want to make my concluding remarks\u2014is that this legislation is already dealt with\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece15dcefeb8480d8cf74dcd9a5b9883\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I have people on my right and my left who are interjecting on each other. It is not permitted. If they want to take a call, they are welcome to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d2116d8a1140ee8f698572782e844e\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: I am just completing my speech. I am looking at the so-called list of prescribed gangs here, and I do not see \u201CBloods\u201D or \u201CCrips\u201D here. I mean, the Bloods and the Crips are the two most sort of\u2014I was not a wayward person, but the Bloods and Crips are not even mentioned\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08c4c0ff59a439ab6bf694942d381ee\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have just cautioned the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022458119f2f56a47148a952d7addd8c6da\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: They are not even mentioned in this bill. So how comprehensive is it? You cannot prescribe all those situations, but you can include a whole bunch of innocent, upstanding, absolutely heroic people who are doing a lot of good work, and who like to associate and ride motorbikes, wear their insignias, and do good things in the community. Potentially, they are impacted by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ELastly, I just want to make this point. If you go into a doctor\u2019s surgery and you see a young wh\u0101nau with a Mongrel Mob man\u2014and how do you know that? He is wearing his red T-shirt and he has got his gang insignia stamped on his face. How can you tell that person to remove himself because his gang insignia is tattooed on to his face? That happens to a high proportion of gang members. What is the situation there? Do they have to remove themselves? Do they have to cover themselves while they are tending to their sick children waiting in the doctor\u2019s surgery so they can actually get their child tended to? It is a ridiculous piece of legislation. I regret that it is having to waste parliamentary time and resources, and I definitely oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9036d1d631543529fc16b387859709c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9036d1d631543529fc16b387859709c\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E I cannot believe what I have just been listening to. Clearly, the member Rino Tirikatene could not support the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill, because he has not read it. I find it extraordinary, and the members of Rangit\u0101ne in my electorate will find it extraordinary, to think that they could be called up as gang members. I just do not believe what I have been hearing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAnyway, aside from that, I want to make a couple of other points because there has been some interesting stuff talked about in the last few minutes. During the course of the select committee process, both Labour and the Greens talked a lot about what was not in this bill. They did not bring one single thing that could have been added to it, or add one piece of value to it in the course of that discussion. Really, they suffer from what I would term the \u201Cdo little syndrome\u201D. They get up here and criticise the bill because it does not deal with what they perceive to be a gang problem, but it certainly deals with a portion of the gang problem. It deals with the intimidation part, where in public buildings and public places these gang members can intimidate people who are, ordinarily, serving them along with other members of the public. I think it does a great job in that area. So that is the first thing I want to question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that Louisa Wall talked about the eradication of gangs. This bill was never designed to eradicate gangs; this bill was designed to deal with gang patches. This Government, of course, is dealing with a number of other issues that will help in the eradication of gangs. The record this Government has around crime is a significant deterrent to people who want to join gangs. In other words, the less crime we have in this country, the less likely we are to have people encouraged to join gangs. Certainly, our retraining and reintegration of reoffending prisoners will make gangs less attractive places for them. The Government, along with its economic policies, where it is driving job growth and the opportunity for people to work, will certainly also discourage people from wanting to join gangs. So we can certainly answer the Opposition queries in respect of that. I think the Government is certainly working towards helping with gangs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to make just one final point on that. If you think about\u2014and I think I might have used this point before\u2014the banning of cigarette advertising is very similar to the banning of gang patches in public places. Really, that is the gangs\u2019 mode of advertising, I guess, for want of a better word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe promoter of this bill, Mark Mitchell, who received it through attrition from the Hon Todd McClay, made reference to the Law and Order Committee\u2019s visit to the Christchurch prisons a few weeks ago. For most prisons throughout New Zealand we have an average of around 30 percent of their total tally of prisoners being gang members. So anything we can do as a Government or as a Parliament to lessen the number of gang members is certainly going to make quite a contribution to lessening the number of people in our prisons. I think there are some very good initiatives in this bill. I think it will help to achieve the purpose it set out to achieve, which is to lessen the intimidation of people serving in our public areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to make one final observation from my own electorate, where I have a large number of schools, a number of which have had problems over time with gang insignia on the grounds of those schools. In many instances\u2014in fact, I think in all instances\u2014the principals of those schools have asked the gangs to remove themselves from the schools, and they have done it. But that does not mean that we do not need legislation like this, because although my schools might have the cooperation of the gang members concerned, there are many schools in New Zealand that do not. So I think this is a very good piece of legislation, and that is my lot on this part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022e45b4a64ccb54781a81cacd5272c35a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e45b4a64ccb54781a81cacd5272c35a7\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a call on Part 1 of this bill, the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill. I think sometimes it is important with these sorts of bills to find where there might be some commonality across the House. There is absolutely no doubt that across this House there is absolutely no one whom I have heard yet who is condoning the activity\u2014and, in particular, the criminal activity\u2014that often coincides with the existence of gangs. Absolutely not. There is also no one in this House who is applauding in any sense the intimidation that comes with the strong presence of gangs in our communities. Absolutely, there is agreement that this is a problem, particularly in some of our most deprived communities, and, as Louisa Wall has pointed out, there is a message in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhere there is disagreement, however\u2014which I would like to talk about specifically in relation to Part 1\u2014is whether or not this bill will have an effect on those critical issues. What Labour is saying is that it is our concern that it will not have an effect, and if it will not have an effect, does it, in fact, have the chance in some cases to make things worse, or make things potentially farcical in some cases? Will it increase the sense of intimidation for some people who will be required to try to enforce this bill? Additionally, underneath all of that, are we therefore wasting our money and time when there are other, alternative routes that we should, or could, be taking? So that is where our objection squarely lies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI do want to go back to the beginning of Part 1 because Part 1 sets out the purpose of the bill. It says: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to prohibit the display of gang insignia on premises of departments of the Public Service, the Police, Crown entities, local authorities, and schools.\u201D I think that is an acknowledgment that the areas in which something like this can be enforced are relatively constrained, and they are constrained to areas where any Government of the day can express some enforcement, because, obviously, there are issues with general bans of insignia in this way. That does mean that you are going to have an ad hoc situation where\u2014if, as we have said, we are concerned about intimidation and with criminal activity\u2014someone who displays their gang insignia can simply wear it in transit between all of these places in which it has otherwise been banned. Does that, overall, change a situation? We fear, of course, that it does not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESecondly, it is constrained around what it defines gang insignia as, and I do not think it recognises that the way in which gangs identify is not solely down to a symbol. Let us just go over the definition of gang insignia. It is set out in the definition of \u201Cgang insignia\u201D in paragraph (a) of clause 4. It says: \u201Cgang insignia\u2014(a) means a sign, symbol, or representation commonly displayed to denote membership of, an affiliation with, or support for a gang, not being a tattoo;\u201D\u2014obviously recognising that it is hard to forcibly remove a tattoo. But, as my colleague Rino Tirikatene has pointed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200f05b38f15146118e5abcda9012adce\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: It can cause a little discomfort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a94d56e9bcd54f519f13c84880ba755e\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As Mr Sabin points out, it could cause discomfort, obviously. But, as Rino Tirikatene has pointed out, some gang members do display their gang symbol in that way permanently on themselves. The definition \u201C(b) includes any item of clothing to which a sign, symbol, or representation referred to in paragraph (a) is attached\u201D. Of course, then it lists gangs that will therefore be covered by that definition of gang insignia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere are two issues in that definition and the way that it is set out. First of all, it requires a gang to be listed within the bill. One thing I wanted to clarify was that if a gang is not listed and the Crown decides that it wants that gang to be inserted in the list, is that simply changed through regulation? I am assuming that it is, except that it is embedded, it seems, in the primary legislation, rather than in regulations. So I would appreciate hearing from the member in the chair, Mark Mitchell\u2014and excuse me for not determining this yet\u2014whether it is via Order in Council that an additional gang must be added. That would be a useful clarification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut first, of course, you must be listed, and then you must fall under the criteria of a particular gang insignia. As my colleague Rino Tirikatene has pointed out, not every gang uses explicit gang insignia. He has asked, for instance, why the Bloods and the Crips are not listed here. The response from across the Chamber from the member Mike Sabin was that the Bloods and the Crips do not have an insignia, but, as the member will know, they certainly have a colour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631a1c75d77d4681b3031df2bfecc085\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: They have colours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022929161aac3ca444f85d37167fbb3aea5\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: They have colours\u2014yes, they do have colours. Actually, they also have hand signals and, in the United States especially, they identify not only with colours but with certain sporting codes and teams. That is how they represent their gang. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWalking around some of our streets where you know that these gangs are particularly prevalent\u2014and I have certainly campaigned across areas like that in my time\u2014you know when you see a group of young men who belong to one of these gangs. They are not wearing insignia, but you know. Again, this points out how this legislation is so flawed. You do not have to wear a gang patch to be a member of a gang\u2014clearly not you, Mr Chair. I see that you are in a red tie. I have not interpreted that to be membership of the Bloods, but that points out the flaw in this bill, which is that not every gang member wears a patch or insignia, and, indeed, not everyone who wears a patch or insignia is a member of a gang\u2014as Rino Tirikatene pointed out with his example, where someone was wearing insignia that someone may interpret to be a gang affiliation when, clearly, it was not. So therein lies the second problem. I have already talked about the first problem, which is that this bill will not actually get to the heart of the issue that the Government proclaims that it is about. But, secondly, in and of itself, it is extremely difficult to enforce, and it would be flawed in the way that it would be enforced, given the way that different gangs identify themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to come on to the second purpose of the bill, and that is what the Government has said around the intimidation of gangs. I have grown up in communities where there is a strong presence of gangs. You know, obviously, when gang members wear their patch, they are identifying very strongly with a brand that denotes a sense of intimidation to some members of the community. There is no doubt about that. But I would question whether empowering those who work in Crown entities\u2014I mean, those who work in a hospital or those who work in a Work and Income office, who are already often working in very fraught and tense situations\u2014and saying to them that they should now feel empowered by the fact that they can have someone\u2019s gang insignia removed every time they deal with them enhances their feeling of safety. I ask whether that lessens that sense of intimidation or, actually, whether or not it will ever be enforced by those individuals. I would be interested in the member in the chair\u2019s view on whether the Law and Order Committee heard any submissions from those who are working in those fields\u2014particularly hospitals, where often the staff will be dealing with critical situations, and particularly with schools\u2014to see whether or not they expressed a concern that, actually, they are unlikely to enforce the provisions of this bill, because of that power dynamic and because of that relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne final thought I would like to leave members with is that I think it is important that we think about the practical nature of these bills. You know, Muldoon was known for his engagement with gangs, with Black Power. You know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2870ec60c643fcb3df62bf976f091b\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: One time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279a43566e5bc4eb9a73800de898d76c7\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, one time. It is a lasting legacy. I believe that it might still put the National Party\u2019s hoardings up, does it not? That was, I think, a long time ago, an acknowledgment of the presence of those gangs in communities and an attempt by a political leader to engage. People have views on that, absolutely, but I think that we need to keep in mind that whilst we sit here and pontificate about these issues, the reality is that, day to day, there are front-line workers who are engaging with gang members and their families. A specific case that I have heard of was in a hospital situation where a patched gang member took in their child because they had injured themselves. The immediate thought was that they would be immediately questioned as to whether or not they had been the one who had perpetrated violence against that child. Those are very delicately balanced situations, where, of course, we do not want to stop anyone from coming in and bringing in their child for care based on the way that they might be then treated in that situation\u2014in a hospital context, for instance. That is a difficult situation. If a health worker comes in and the first thing they say is: \u201CRemove your insignia.\u201D, are we always going to guarantee the safety of that child and the ability for them to be cared for because we have suddenly prioritised what is going on with the adult over the child\u2019s well-being? Those are the kinds of issues I think about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224e4bee10d4b34791a66ee7247f26e4f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e4bee10d4b34791a66ee7247f26e4f5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Mark Sabin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022240eb2c18cfe42368f27cab4265c5e42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022240eb2c18cfe42368f27cab4265c5e42\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7516e67dc54d819895d67e8f2a3477\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, Mike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a96fcb616417443ca9834b7ddce3375e\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: We are both former police officers. We obviously both cut a fairly fine jib. It is easy to see how one could get confused with these things. I trifle with the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on a couple of points that have been raised. The member Rino Tirikatene raised what I think was a bizarre contribution. It was a long 10 minutes. Basically, he showed a couple of pictures of some friends who were wearing dark clothing. He suggested\u2014which I think was right on the limit\u2014that because they were M\u0101ori that somehow would have some impact on what the police may or may not be doing. I strongly hope that the member was not going down that path, but it seemed to me that he was. But he suggested, because they were M\u0101ori, because they had a black jacket on, because they had some tattoos, and because they ride a motorbike, that suddenly they would be captured in this bill, the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill, that they are intimidatory, that he cannot understand it, and that it is all bizarre and confusing, much like his speech was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWell, here is a little something for the Committee to consider. I am M\u0101ori. I have tattoos\u2014in fact, quite a few of them. I ride a motorbike\u2014not well, I admit, and generally I like them to have four wheels, not two, because I find I can stay on them more stably that way. I have also got a leather jacket that happens to be black. So would I be captured in this bill? That is the question I would like to ask the member. Does that then mean that I will be getting the once-over from the local constabulary because of that? Can the member answer that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238775dd539d54433b4847007419301b1\u0022\u003ERino Tirikatene\u003C/span\u003E: You could be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9eb75107a04413870e338e2c981771\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: I could be, and I do not look a shred intimidatory. I am sure the member Jacinda Ardern will agree that I am a very gentile member of this House\u2014very gentile. [Interruption] What is it I hear coming from the cross benches? I posed a question on this bill: what would the police say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e33e45cdf94443478967f47d4eaf21a8\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about the Judaeo-Christian tradition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642f16c2f6f148a1964809bc2dbb41b7\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it just so happens\u2014there is the next leader of the Labour Party. He is wanting to get in before he gets his call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e879e1780b5460bb3a0f347298d6ada\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew or David? Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa07b4b87ec6458b83523b91a058da35\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, true\u2014there are more Davids than we can shake a stick at to choose from, but I am backing that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022428f0597ad214d0e811f88a0cadb581c\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: I wouldn\u2019t choose that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b1e952525974636b07dece5bc142b0c\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: You would not choose that one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3187654e4e54fb48af75f8bb7e5769a\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad4d52ebd2e0486789ad814fb6e46a0e\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014wrong horse. Right, so I will get back to this. The police would rightfully have a view on this. As a former police officer working in the area of organised crime for a number of years, and in particular working with the gang situation, I think I can probably share a perspective from the police. I wonder what they would have to say. Clearly, the Police Association wholeheartedly endorses this. The police are saying that this is a good thing. It is not the panacea and there is nothing to suggest that what this bill is about is solving the gang problems, because, actually, the gang problem is a reflection of many other societal issues and many other problems and areas, which I will touch on, that we are addressing. But removing gang insignia, and this bill itself, is not about getting rid of the gangs, per se. The police say it is a very good tool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhat I would say to members on the other side is that even at its worst\u2014if they think this will have little or no impact\u2014it will certainly do no harm. I, for the life of me\u2014[Interruption] Oh no, it is very harmful when we lock up a gang member for intimidating others by wearing his big mobster patch! That is a shocking thing to do! I question why it is that on that basis, even if we argue that it has little benefit and it would do no harm, they would not support it. It just shows that those members are disengaged with the views of New Zealanders, because there are no New Zealanders who actually think going anywhere in the area of being soft on gangs or soft on crime or anything\u2014the Labour Party says no, it is not doing that. But what does this bill actually say? Because if it is actually not doing anything other than giving the police the ability to arrest people when they think that they can intimidate others, they can patch up, and they can gangster their way around town\u2014and that happens frequently in my electorate, and I am sure many electorate MPs here have had that issue in their constituency and would attest to that. It does pose that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on the other point that has been raised: \u201COh, if they were serious about gangs, they would\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002265dae8d791914cc78e0a2cf2d051aba2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265dae8d791914cc78e0a2cf2d051aba2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat, Mike Sabin, came out with the brilliant thought that just because this bill, the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill, does no harm, Parliament should pass it. What an amazing precedent to set! Do you know how much it costs to run this House? It costs $7,500 a minute. That member just took $35,000 worth of taxpayers\u2019 money to tell the Committee to do it because it does no harm\u2014do it because it does no harm. How about solving the problem? How about being tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime? The Labour Opposition does not want tokenism; it wants solutions. It does not want half the country growing up in poverty and the other half sheltering behind razor wire. A divided society is a society that ultimately will be an unhappy and unhealthy society\u2014[Interruption]\u2014a society where no one, Mr Macindoe, wins. No one wins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere have been some great studies that show that more equal societies do better. They do better economically. They do better socially. People live longer. They are healthier. They are happier. All the statistics go in the right direction. To get that boat turned in the right direction, what do you need? You need housing. You need health care. You need good policing. You need a growing economy. You need jobs. You need all those things, which the National Government cannot deliver. So what is its smokescreen? I know: we are going to ban gang patches because it \u201Cdoes no harm\u201D, even though it costs $7,500 a minute to waste Parliament\u2019s time\u2014to waste Parliament\u2019s time\u2014and to waste the public\u2019s time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe all know that the magnet of gangs is there because there are disaffected youth looking for a home, looking for a wh\u0101nau, looking for role models, and looking for male role models in particular. Gangs are a symptom of societal breakdown. And, to be fair, sometimes they can be the cause. We have no sympathy for gangs, but what we are not going to pretend is that the clothing on someone\u2019s back determines the outcome of our society. If the National Government was serious about fighting crime, it would be serious about fighting unemployment. It would be reducing unemployment by growing jobs. It would put people back to productive work. It would work with our police to intervene before gangs were a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe member who just reduced his seat\u2014when he sits down, he does reduce the seat. That is just the thing. The member who just resumed his seat is a disappointment to the New Zealand Police Force today, because the New Zealand bobby on the beat knows that the gang problem is a complicated problem, and changing the colour of the shirt on your back or the patch on your jacket is not going to solve it. It is not going to solve the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat the Labour Opposition stands for is end-to-end solutions. We are going to follow the lessons of a \u201CKing Dick\u201D Seddon or a \u201CMickey\u201D Savage. We are going to have opportunities from the cradle to the grave, and we are going to make sure we build a good society. We are not going to waste Parliament\u2019s time by worrying about the gang patch on somebody\u2019s back. Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime\u2014that is the Labour philosophy. Let us get a real strategy, not something that, in the words of the member opposite, will simply \u201Cdo no harm\u201D. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022575185ce5da8496892c18fa4fb407ee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022575185ce5da8496892c18fa4fb407ee6\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I will just take this opportunity to respond to some of the issues that have been raised by the Opposition. I want to come back to Mr Tirikatene\u2019s speech and state very clearly\u2014and I share my colleague Mike Sabin\u2019s concern\u2014that I think Kiwis are all a bit over having race introduced into these types of arguments. This bill, the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill, relates to Asian Triads, it relates to the Mongrel Mob, and it relates to the Hell\u2019s Angels. If your friends want to wear leather jackets\u2014I enjoy, and I am sure all of us in this House sometimes enjoy, going biking, like Mr Sabin was saying, and wearing a leather jacket\u2014there is nothing wrong with that, Mr Tirikatene. They can do that. But if they choose to put a Mongrel Mob patch or a Black Power patch on it, they are going to have to remove it, take it off, when they go into a school or a Government building. It is as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHow do people qualify? How do people get membership to this club? If its members, associates, or supporters, individually or collectively, promote, encourage, or engage in criminal activity, then they will find that they have their gang patches registered on the schedule. That is how you get membership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of police leadership, and whether or not this bill is actually going to have a real effect and give the police another effective tool to use in their fight against organised crime and gangs, the clear answer to that is yes. The great thing to see about our police service at the moment is that it has got very strong leadership in the Police Commissioner, Peter Marshall, and his two deputies, Mike Bush and Viv Rickard. Sadly, for a long time, in my own personal opinion, I feel that our police service lacked some strong leadership. Thankfully, now they have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe feedback from the Police Association and the police is that this is a very good bill, and it is going to provide them with a very effective tool to be able to take action and apply pressure, put pressure, on the gangs in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt is not a waste of time. I am a bit disappointed to hear Mr Cunliffe say that. In fact, most of New Zealand really does not know at the moment what the Labour Party stands for, and this is a great opportunity for those members to put a stake in the ground and say: \u201CYou know what? We are going to be strong on law and order, and we are going to support this bill.\u201D Wishful thinking. I do not think we are going to see that happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMr Cunliffe said that Mr Sabin stood up and wasted $35,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money. Actually, he has every right to get up and speak in this House. That is why he was elected as the representative for Northland in 2011. He has a big history in having to deal with and see the carnage, and the victims associated with gangs. He was recognised by the Sir Peter Blake Trust for providing leadership in this area, so he knows what he is talking about. My point there is this: Mr Cunliffe talked about $35,000. Do you know what? That pales in comparison with what gangs and gang activity, and criminals and organised crime sponsored by gangs, cost the taxpayer and cost this country every year. I want everyone to think about that and reflect on that as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHe is right. This bill is not the panacea, and I have said myself that this is not the panacea, but this is one very important part of giving our police a tool to be able to take action against gangs. Are the nurses in the accident and emergency departments going to want to be too bothered about having to ask gang members to remove their gang patches? I visited North Shore Hospital recently, and I can assure you that the nursing staff there, the sisters, and the doctors are certainly no shrinking violets. They are more than happy to do whatever they have to do to provide a good environment for the patients and the people in their care. But the beauty of this bill is that they do not have to tell a gang member to remove a patch. This bill allows for the police to come in and do that, and remove any tension that may be created between nursing staff or medical staff and a gang-patched member bringing in a child for treatment. That really is in response to the issue that Miss Ardern raised. I hope that that has clarified some of the points that have been raised by the Opposition. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022353e2ec2e94248109290719ef6909650\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022353e2ec2e94248109290719ef6909650\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on this bill, the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill. I am going to be a bit kinder than my colleagues. First of all I congratulate the member who originally brought the bill. Members\u2019 bills are a big thing for individual members, so I congratulate Todd McClay, and also Mark Mitchell, who I think did a good job at the Back Bencher the other night, explaining this bill. I think it is very well intentioned. I do not doubt that it is well meaning, and that members genuinely believe that this bill will make a difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI was not on the Law and Order Committee so I do not have the benefit of the experience, but I have listened very carefully to my colleagues and I have come to the conclusion that this is window dressing\u2014this is window dressing. I think the member over there, Mike Sabin, actually confirmed it. What he said is: \u201CEven if it won\u2019t work, passing this bill will do no harm.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220773360e236346e49bf296053f045c64\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d4932c7ff1492dadbd7e0c3aaa1afc\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is what he said. I wrote it down as you said it, Mr Sabin: \u201CEven if it won\u2019t work, passing a bill will do no harm.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I have looked through this bill and looked at what the select committee said about it, particularly our members and the Green Party members, I can see that the committee members really struggled with definitions in this bill. They struggled with the definition of what is a public place, or what is a public service, \u201Cdepartment\u201D, \u201CCrown entity\u201D, \u201Clocal authority\u201D, and so on. There are still the unanswered questions, and perhaps the member in the chair, Mark Mitchell, can take a call and answer the questions that I have about this. What it seems to do is to create a situation where you can have anomalies. You can have, for example, someone wearing a patch in a bus shelter and that is prohibited because the bus shelter belongs to the local council, but they are allowed to stand on the footpath outside. You can have the same kind of intimidation outside a school, because it is not public property, as you are not allowed to have in the school. I can see that gang members can be just as intimidating, if not more so, if they can stand outside public premises, outside a hospital, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe other thing I think about this bill, too, is that if I were a gang member I would be deeply disappointed if my gang was not mentioned in this list in the bill. I would make it a matter of pride to get my name mentioned in legislation. Who has their gang mentioned in legislation? Where else would you be able to have such a badge of honour as to have your gang mentioned in legislation? There are bound to be gangs that have been missed out. There are bound to be problems with identifying who the gangs are. What the members opposite have been saying is that\u2014although they were arguing about the speech of my colleague Mr Tirikatene, and saying that the people he was describing were not covered by the bill\u2014this bill expects public servants, such as teachers and nurses, to be able to identify what is a gang patch, covered under clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, in Part 1, and whether it is actually covered by this bill and the long, long list of the various gangs. I think what Rino Tirikatene was trying to describe is how easily people could be confused, and what a waste of police time that could be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOne of the things I have been following recently is the National Front. Have you seen the insignia of the National Front? It is not covered by this bill, but it is just as intimidating as that of many of the gangs that are mentioned here in this bill. How would a nurse or a teacher know the difference between a member of \u201CHu-Hu MC\u201D, or \u201CLone Legion MC\u201D, or \u201CMothers MC\u201D, or \u201CNomads\u201D? How would they know that? The fact they are listed in this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8514486c03e4cd9947bf934acdd9f0e\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: I realise that. I\u2019m astonished that the member is even suggesting that they\u2019re unknown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022293de26cfcb44022961d6ef93991037d\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they are unknown. I would not know who they are. I am sorry, I have not been a policeman like that member. The arrogance of the policeman on that side of the Chamber is really getting a big boring, to be honest. Look, I am a lay member of the public. I am putting myself in the shoes of ordinary, hard-working public servants, such as teachers and nurses, and asking a genuine question about how on earth they are supposed to be able to identify the gangs that are covered by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAre they supposed to carry this legislation around with them? When someone comes into the hospital or the school, wearing an insignia\u2014and, as I said, there are many types of insignia; it is not just gang insignia\u2014are they supposed to go up to them and say: \u201CAre you a member of the Bandidos MC? Is that a gang, under clause 4 of the bill?\u201D. Are they supposed to have a list on the wall? These are people who are trying to teach our kids at school. These are the nurses who are trying to deal with the injured who are coming through the door. Then they are supposed to ring the cops if they think that those people are covered by this bill, and then they have got to wait for a policeman. The poor policemen have already had their resources cut under this Government. What this is going to do is add more pressure on cops, who actually should be solving the crimes of ordinary people who are having their houses burgled, and other things, not wasting time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u002298e3f8f098904b3e9f3568d0e2a9b607\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298e3f8f098904b3e9f3568d0e2a9b607\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E The Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill is a very good bill, and it just amazes me that the Labour Party\u2014I know it is the Opposition\u2014could be opposing it, because this is common sense. If you go out there and speak to any New Zealander in the street and you say: \u201CShould gang members be able to come into a school or a hospital or a WINZ office with a gang patch on? Should they be allowed to?\u201D, people will say: \u201CNo, of course they shouldn\u2019t.\u201D The fact that the Labour Party is arguing against this bill just shows how completely out of touch it is. This is actually the problem that the Labour Party has got\u2014that it will oppose legislation like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022713950afa85e436ab7c2c67f7097bc12\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Why would he say something that is not even being argued? This is how desperate his Government has become.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce8f9a71177442f4ae6b4f4a9694c0cf\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Little is going ballistic over there because he is losing control. He is losing his grip on the prize of the Labour leadership. I would like to hear him get up and argue against a very common-sense bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis is the difference, you see, between people like the National members and, on this occasion, I believe, our colleagues in New Zealand First, and the totally out-of-touch people representing Labour. Just like with the man ban, they will argue in favour of something that makes absolutely no sense to the average New Zealander in the street. This is why those people over there are going to be in Opposition for a long, long time to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EDavid Cunliffe got up and he said: \u201CTough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.\u201D Everyone at home would think \u201CWell, that sounds very good.\u201D until they actually realised that that is a line directly plagiarised from Tony Blair\u2019s 1997 UK \u201CNew Labour\u201D manifesto. That shows what the problem is with these people. There is no substance there. There is absolutely no common sense. Who would say that the Mongrel Mob should be able to go into a hospital wearing gang patches? I tell you, I have worked in hospital accident and emergency departments, and it is not very nice for the staff and the rest of the public when these people come in wearing their gang patches and intimidating people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis bill sends a very good signal to gangs that, yes, you might be able to wear your red T-shirt or you might be able to have your facial tattoo, but, actually, we are going to make it inconvenient for you if you want to come into a hospital, a Work and Income New Zealand department, or a primary school and try to intimidate excellent public servants going about their daily tasks, scare kids, cause inconvenience, and, basically, try to be macho. Supporting this bill shows that we are not going to tolerate gangs and their activities in New Zealand, but, of course, the Labour Party thinks it is fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThat is the problem with Labour. Labour members talk a big game, but in the end they are prepared to tolerate all sorts of unacceptable behaviour because, actually, the Labour Party lacks any form of common sense on just about any issue, whether it is the man ban, whether it is gang insignia, or whether it is power prices. If you want a really stupid solution, ask this current crop of Labour MPs. They will be losing touch with the blokes out there who drive the white vans, the guys on the building sites, and the people who, basically, have walked away from Labour in droves because constantly it comes up with stupid positions on common-sense issues. Even a schoolkid could look at this and say it is a very good idea to ban gang insignia in our schools, in our hospitals, and in the Work and Income New Zealand offices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Labour member Andrew Little, if you get your crack at the leadership, try to turn those people round. We want some decent Opposition. National and the country deserve a good Opposition. We are not getting it from that party over there at the moment, because it is not connecting with New Zealanders. There is a total lack of common sense from the Labour Party, and it is exemplified by the fact that it would oppose this excellent bill that Todd McClay and now Mark Mitchell have brought before the House. I want to commend them for their very good, sensible work. The National Party wholeheartedly supports this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9906c5bcbcb4e549c62ff65886b1a1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9906c5bcbcb4e549c62ff65886b1a1c\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take what will now be my final call on this part of the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill. I just want to respond to some comments made by Dr Coleman, the previous speaker. You see, here is the thing: no one on this side of the Chamber has argued, nor would we argue, that gangs should have some sort of free rein over schools or hospitals or any other Government office. No one has argued that. We do not need to argue that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf he wants arguments about sensible solutions to real problems, then Dr Coleman could do a lot worse than actually sitting there listening to us for a moment and hearing what the real problem is. The real problem is not the presence of gang patches and gang insignia; it is the fact that we have criminal enterprises, some of them tied up with gangs. Their members wear whatever garments they wear\u2014some of them do not wear any gang patches\u2014but they are still tied up with groups, and they are still involved in criminal enterprises. If we had a Government that was genuinely interested in dealing with the issues of crime and bringing to justice those who would commit crimes against those in our communities, then it would not be wasting its time, our time, and the time of this Committee on legislation like this. It would be addressing the real issues, the real drivers of crime. It would be dealing with the people who bring to their activities bad motives, poor motives, evil motives, and it would be addressing those issues. It would be looking at those people who are driven into the gangs through poverty, through hardship, or through whatever misguided sense of membership or belonging that they have or want to have, and it would address those issues. But this is not a Government that wants to do that. This is a Government that is about blaming others, blaming people, blaming everybody else rather than taking the time and the effort to come up with real solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf I were in business driving a white van around the streets, I would want to know that I was driving through safe communities and safe streets. I would want to know that I had a Government in charge that was committed to dealing with those issues and putting in place those measures that were genuinely about dealing with issues of crime and ensuring that those who commit crime are properly brought to justice. I would be equally concerned about making sure that those who are brought to justice are then handled through our criminal justice system in a way that actually has a better chance of fixing the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat is not what this bill does. This is about cosmetics. As everything about this bill\u2014which is about gang insignia and gang patches\u2014suggests, it is just cosmetics. It is not about dealing with people and it is not about dealing with the issue, and that is why we are opposed to it. That is why we will continue to oppose silly measures proposing silly solutions to problems that do not exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf we want to deal with people who are on premises and should not be there, we already have the means to deal with that, as the Napier District Court has shown, and as many public organisations are showing. But if we wanted to stop criminal elements turning up in public places, we would not be stopping at public buildings or Government buildings; we would be dealing with criminal elements turning up to playgrounds, turning up to beaches, turning up to barbecue places, and turning up on our streets. We will deal with that in the next part, and we will deal with the measures that are there for police to chase these people. We will be dealing with real measures to stop this. This bill does not do that. That is why we are opposed to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI know that Dr Coleman has listened intently to this, and I see now the look on his face. He now realises, of course, that this legislation does not go anywhere near the sorts of problems that he spelt out and that we need to have fixed. I know he understands that no one in this Committee is arguing that we want to have gang members marauding around our schools and our hospitals. I know he understands that we are all opposed to that, and I know now that he understands that we want real measures to deal with the real problems, not just window dressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u00225c988e63b50d4d56ad59a6d9e21e3cc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c988e63b50d4d56ad59a6d9e21e3cc7\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to pick up on a few points that Mr Little has actually raised there. He made comments to the effect that, basically, what we should be doing is removing the attractiveness of gangs. I could not agree more with the member in that regard. And, actually, it is interesting to note that the police in their submission to the Law and Order Committee on the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill also agreed with Mr Little\u2019s sentiments. They said: \u201CThe bill is welcome in that it provides recognition in principle of the seriousness of New Zealand\u2019s gang problem. The provisions will be of some assistance in reducing the attractions of gang membership and the intimidation felt by members of the public and government employees.\u201D So, actually, the point that Andrew Little raises is a very good one. It is just that, for some reason, Labour members cannot find it in themselves philosophically to actually vote for the bill; they are struggling to find the arguments to vote against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on some comments that Darien Fenton mentioned about gangs wanting to get on this list in the bill\u2014that that would be some sort of badge of honour. That actually goes to the heart of what a gang patch is all about. What do people have to do to earn a patch? Well, they can start at the lower end with an aggravated robbery or some grievous bodily harm. They can move their way up the scale with a pack rape or something of that nature. If they want to get an instant patch, it is with a homicide\u2014it is with a murder. And they will do their lag. They will plead guilty, they will do their lag, and they will earn their patch, because, of course, prisons in New Zealand have often been seen as almost some sort of learning institution for the gang fraternity. Inside those walls, that is actually what they do: they practise their gang skills and their networking and so forth. It is good to see some great leadership from Minister Tolley in terms of making it a lot less comfortable for gang members to perpetuate their functions from inside the walls of prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe point I want to make here is that, in terms of earning a gang patch, that means the world to them. And as a police officer, removing a gang patch from a gang member, taking that away\u2014generally, of course, that can be done only if it was used in the commission of an offence in some way, and it becomes evidence. But this bill will give the police the ability to take it away just for the fact that it has been worn in Government premises or in local authority premises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe significance of a patch should not be understated. Gang members would rather die than give up their patch. Indeed, there are gangs that will kill rather than let someone de-patch, which gives some indication of how important it is to have that. The point that Darien Fenton was raising actually works against her own argument, because what it says is that gang patches are very important, therefore it is very important to make sure that the New Zealand Government and the New Zealand public deny gang members every opportunity to wear that patch and intimidate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton went on to say: \u201COh, they can\u2019t wear it inside the building but they can wear it on the footpath outside the building.\u201D If Darien Fenton took a little bit of time to have a wander through the Crimes Act 1961, she would actually find that there are all manner of offences that rely on proximity as an ingredient of the offence. They have to be on public property, but if they step inside the house, immediately they are not committing an offence, because they are one step removed from that public place. This bill is no different, so I am baffled as to why she is trying to raise the idea that inside the building it is an offence but outside the building it is not. There are plenty of other tools that the police can use if they want to remove a gang patch in terms of criminal offending, because, in my experience, when you see one or two gang members hanging around, generally they are committing offences, and it is just a case of finding out which one it is and locking them up for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that what we have got here is a Labour Party struggling to find reasons to vote against this. Labour members have also talked about the idea that we should be doing other things\u2014we should be building houses, we should be growing the economy. Why do those members vote against every effort we make to do that, and then come in here and disingenuously say: \u201COh, if they were serious about it, they would do something about jobs and houses.\u201D? Stop voting against our efforts, then. New Zealanders have so woken up to that approach. The only people who will be supporting this Labour Party will be gangs. How ironic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 253 in the name of Richard Prosser to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6acbe7a0fd34a9d8b45fdec477b9a8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independents: Dunne, Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002281c1f6f30cf944a28337c2727ead1854\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independents: Dunne, Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b3dd6543bf5496faff273450e7f8530\u0022\u003EPart 2  Offences and enforcement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u002290f75d031f4443bdb3e94e5ac0ffac5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290f75d031f4443bdb3e94e5ac0ffac5e\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Once again it is a pleasure to rise to take a call on Part 2 of this Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill. In doing so can I just acknowledge, as I have not as yet, the member Mark Mitchell, a former police officer. He was, of course, a dog handler and spent a lot of time be dragged around by his Alsatians that he, no doubt\u2014they must have been big, stocky brutes, I am sure. I acknowledge him for the work that he is doing on this bill, and also Minister Todd McClay, who originally brought this bill to Parliament. Part 2 deals largely with the offences and the enforcement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI just want to pick up on a couple of points around the forfeiting and the ability for the Crown to subsequently destroy the gang patch. This goes back to the point I raised in the debate on the first part around the significance of a gang patch to a gang member. It is not just an item of clothing. In fact, it is the single most important factor in identifying gang members, and it is something that they will fight for, that they will die for, and that they will certainly have to commit offences to have. One of the challenges that the police have faced\u2014and I certainly have\u2014is the ability for a gang member to wear the patch unless it is used in the commission of offence. Only then do the police have the ability to seize it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EIn the second part of the bill here it lays out quite clearly the practical tools that police officers on the street will be able to use when they seize those gang patches. They will be able to stop vehicles and search those vehicles, and I bet there will not be a single gang member in New Zealand who\u2014if they bother to tune into Parliamentary TV. I am probably a little optimistic that they do; I am not sure that it is really their cup of tea. One thing I do know is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd71d2939f9547229159091c008df76f\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: You shouldn\u2019t mention \u201Ccup of tea\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2224f0add654ba5a73d627b8e0509ec\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: As soon as word gets around that this bill\u2014or cup of P, as the case may be\u2014has passed, I bet they will be paying real attention to it, as will the police, who will use every opportunity they can to immediately start removing these patches from gang members who like to go around perpetuating their intimidation on society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhat we will see in the practical sense is some gang members being very, very upset by the fact that not only has their patch been taken but the patch will go into a furnace and it will be destroyed. Along with it will be their mana, their identity, and everything that they stand for, because that patch is almost a part of them. As members have rightfully raised, many of them actually go to the point of having their gang insignia tatooed on their body. I have, of course, seen one or two who have tattooed on their face in front of the mirror, and it does pose some interesting problems when they tattoo themselves back to front. Once it is on, it is on. No amount of Brillo-pad scrubbing is going to get that thing off there. That goes to the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EOf course, it would be ridiculous to assert: \u201COh, well, you can\u2019t remove\u201D\u2014sorry, not you, Mr Chairperson\u2014\u201CThe police cannot remove tattoos from their face, so this bill has no meaning or substance.\u201D It is the patch that means something. The tattoo is simply an embodiment of what that patch means. They wear their taiaha, as it were, on their skin by red-tattooing it. The patch on their skin\u2014the tattoo on their skin\u2014is not their patch. Their jacket is their patch. For members who are not aware of that, it does not matter what gang members will tattoo on themselves, it is the patch that matters. So the idea that we should get caught up on the idea that if they have got tattoos on their face or insignia on their face\u2014that is nothing. That is actually just someone who has got a bit of scribble on their face because they think it makes them look staunch. The point is that it is their patch that matters. They would sooner lose the skin off their face than lose the patch off their back. As a police officer, I would just be jumping at the opportunity to see these patches going into the furnace, because that sends a terrific signal to the New Zealand public that this Government does not back the gangs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00229986f1e4911f4726b85b3d1eb7419a6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229986f1e4911f4726b85b3d1eb7419a6d\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to acknowledge Richard Prosser from New Zealand First and congratulate him on his Supplementary Order Paper 253 going through tonight. I just acknowledge his contribution on the Law and Order Committee and the fact that he is taking a very strong position\u2014and New Zealand First has taken a strong position\u2014in support of this bill, the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Bill, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt is actually pretty simple. It is like Mr Sabin just said. We have spoken about it a lot in the Committee tonight and we have spoken a lot over the last couple of months on this bill. That is that the gang patch signifies one thing: the fact that wearers of gang patches have committed crimes against us as a community. It is their badge of honour. They do put a lot of significance in it. So I think that as a country it is actually quite a good idea to say to them that we do not want to see them wearing those around us\u2014leave them at home. If you do not leave the patches at home, then our police officers have got the right to come and remove them from you. If you do not want to give them up, then the police have the right to arrest you, convict you, and destroy that patch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI think that another important question to ask ourselves is whether the police\u2014the people whom we as a country charge with trying to provide safe and secure communities and protect us against the sorts of people who are in gangs\u2014want to have this additional power. The answer is yes, they do want to have it. They like it, they know that they can use it, and they know that it will be effective. The Police Association, which is always a very good backstop and will always look at these things very, very carefully and do a lot of analysis on them before taking a position, came to the select committee and clearly said that it likes this bill, it is going to be effective, and it is going to provide serving police officers with another very effective tool to use. So what it boils down to is we as a country saying this: we know what patches mean, we do not like them, we do not want them around us, so leave them at home. If you want to wear them, wear them around at home, but do not wear them into town, do not wear them into our schools and around our kids, and do not wear them into Government buildings. If you do, then we are going to empower our police to take action against you and remove them. It is as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EFinally, I just want to touch very quickly on Part 2. If a gang member decides to get smart and walks into the Work and Income office with his patch on, and for whatever reason he is asked to take it off and he refuses to do so, hangs around in the Work and Income office, intimidating as many people as he can, and leaves\u2014jumps in his car and takes off\u2014then, no, he has not got away with it. Actually, under Part 2 the police have got the ability to stop him, to search him, to get his details, and to remove the patch. That is another very significant, very important part of Part 2 in terms of accountability and giving the police the ability to actually take action, even if the person has left the premises where they are not meant to be. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Mark Mitchell to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003Ein subclause (2), insert \u201Con conviction\u201D after \u201Cliable\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002298fc267d90d64e7e9c1b8c6bcc6e6d8e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independents: Dunne, Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f928cea862644976a1d85f601c6aa4eb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independents: Dunne, Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244c46ede97f34b71bf11d77f96f226b6\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002215abe995872c4220854964c6d8989171\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independents: Dunne, Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c19057cf9f94be4adbae4afd37d3249\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independents: Dunne, Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000502\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000503\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223519957763224b43b27a894e000c7403\u0022\u003EGambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237915c9533b940d890394309760c3e8d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00226be8efcf6fea4b2da28a236001bfe361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226be8efcf6fea4b2da28a236001bfe361\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I cannot come to this debate without remembering the passionate advocacy of the late Maureen Waaka, who inspired me to focus on the issue of problem gambling as one of the greatest social hazards impacting on our communities. Maureen, moe mai r\u0101 koe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill was born out of a desire to minimise the harm of gambling on vulnerable communities as well as ensuring the returns from gambling remained in the communities from which the money was generated. First and foremost, gambling-related harm is detrimental to the well-being, the economic outlook, and the community health of far too many New Zealanders. The M\u0101ori Party stepped up to that challenge and this bill is the result. We do not have the luxury of sitting back and waiting for a better day. We know that problem gambling severely compromises the potential of wh\u0101nau and that we must act now. When gambling gets out of control, it is not just an individual who loses. Whole wh\u0101nau and communities suffer. Problem gambling has devastating consequences on individuals and wh\u0101nau. Those consequences can be demonstrated in relationship breakdown, financial ruin, psychological distress, criminal offending, imprisonment, and suicide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhy then did the M\u0101ori Party take up this call? Over 20 years ago the very first gambling prevalence study in New Zealand identified that M\u0101ori had at least three times more risk of problem gambling than non-M\u0101ori. In the early 1990s, through the provision of the Gambling Helpline and gambling counselling services, it was identified that M\u0101ori, particularly M\u0101ori women, were increasingly seeking help with problems of gambling. Our rangatahi are also not spared the impact of this addiction. M\u0101ori youth are six times more likely to develop gambling problems than non-M\u0101ori youth. All in all, the glaring reality of these statistics prompted us to commit to a goal, which is shared widely in the problem-gambling sector, and that is to prevent and minimise gambling harm. So I make these preliminary comments because I want to make it quite clear where our motivation for addressing problem gambling comes from: He tangata, he tangata, he tangata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhen this bill was introduced in September 2010, its purpose was very clear: to provide local communities with more power to determine where pokie machines may be sited and how the proceeds can be distributed. Almost 3 years down the track, I believe that that vision of a gambling-free future will be strengthened by the initiatives advanced in this bill, including the intention to, one, cut rorts and conflicts of interest out of the gambling sector; two, to introduce harm minimisation devices, which can now be done through regulations; three, to have a minimum amount returned to the community where the gambling occurred, which can now be done, again, through regulations; and, four, to get pokies out of low socio-economic communities. Now venues will be able to transfer out of these areas, where that is supported by the community and the council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe original bill wanted to cut out racing and racing stake money as an authorised charitable purpose. The Government disagreed, saying that it would have too much of a negative impact on the racing industry. That is a fight that will continue at another time. The original bill had a condition that at least 80 percent of the funds derived from class 4 gambling would be distributed to the community from which it came. The Government supported the idea of making sure funds from pokies went back into their communities of origin and the bill now enables this to happen through regulation. The original bill required territorial authorities to take control of distributing proceeds from gambling. The Government agreed that there needs to be greater transparency of the current grant system, taking away the risk of rorts and dodgy dealings. This will be part of a future work programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe original bill allowed for public sentiment and evidence of harm to be a specific criterion when territorial authorities are developing their venue policies and for that to be a reason for reducing the number of pokie machines in that area. The Government disagreed with this approach, but it wanted to instead allow venues with the permission from territorial authorities to move their pokie machines out of harm\u2019s way. The original bill wanted harm minimisation devices to be put into gambling machines, like pre-commit cards, and player-tracking systems. The Government has now supported the development of regulations to support the implementation of harm minimisation technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ELet me be the first in this second reading debate to state the obvious. The bill that we are debating here today is far less impressive than my original intent. That is right. There is no denying that. Hands are up\u2014guilty. I do, however, want to acknowledge my thanks to Graeme Ramsey and the Problem Gambling Foundation and, indeed, the mighty advocacy of the \u201CPeople Before Pokies\u201D campaign, which has championed the cause of reducing gambling harm so clearly and in such a compelling way. In doing so, I want to also recognise the incredible impact of the experience, the advice, and the wisdom from right across the motu. The Commerce Committee apparently considered 5,000 submissions from interest groups and individuals and considered another 30,000 form submissions. It also heard around 159 or 160 submissions at hearings in Wellington, Christchurch, and Auckland. If nothing else, the level of public participation has truly been awesome and this Parliament is better for their contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI know that this bill does not live up to the ideal that we all had. But I have chosen not to walk away. My approach to political reform is to chisel away bit by bit, to persevere, to do the work necessary to achieve change, no matter how incremental. T\u0113r\u0101 pea he pakupaku, he pakupaku noa te namu \u0113ngari, ko t\u014Dna wero, \u0113, k\u0101ore. As we say, the smallest mosquito can have an impact. I was not about to pull out of those communities who desperately need change and turn my back on the wh\u0101nau who have come to me in need. So I started working with the Minister of Internal Affairs, the Hon Chris Tremain, on how to advance the many issues that my bill sought to address, and I mihi to him today for his genuine commitment to working together to reform the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhat is the result? Well, it is a broad package of class 4 gambling reforms, which are given further strength within the regulatory and legislative reforms proposed by the Government. The changes announced by Minister Tremain are a direct result of my bill, which was the catalyst for change. We placed the issue on the agenda and this wider package is the result of our hard work. Where we had achieved broad agreement, we made changes, and I am pleased that we have. I have been able to negotiate a series of changes that lift the percentage returned to the community, that address conflicts of interest and rorts, and that will ensure gambling proceeds are distributed in the areas raised. These changes are important reforms that were not on the radar until my bill came along. Perhaps one of the most significant impacts of this bill is that it has created the public climate for urgency in addressing problem gambling. In this sense, a new bill to be introduced later in the year by the Minister, and the regulatory changes that have arisen out of my bill are important signals of an appetite for change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIf I had the right to reply to all of those who have chosen to publicly withdraw their support from the bill, I would urge, first, that they look at the wider package and the eight new measures that have arisen, provoked by the impact of the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. The key drivers of my bill were to address rorts and conflicts of interests and concerns around gambling-related harm, both of which have been addressed. But we were always clear that a wider strategy was required, including broader legislative reform and a public education programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EJust to bring us back to the context of this bill\u2014every day New Zealanders lose $5.5 million on gambling. That is around $2 billion every year. Should we ignore that reality? Should we walk away from this bill, on principle? The M\u0101ori Party says no. More than 18,000 New Zealanders are problem gamblers and, of course, none of these individuals operate in isolation. Almost 3 percent of New Zealand adults, close to 90,000 people, have experienced problems due to someone\u2019s gambling in a previous year. Should we gamble on their future, wish them good luck, and walk away because we were not able to achieve what we wanted with this bill? The M\u0101ori Party says no. We are in this for our wh\u0101nau and our communities. We are not bowing out. We are continuing the tough fight. We have gained some ground. That is what you achieve when you sit down at the table. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc4172b0e39549188f20388959c69723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc4172b0e39549188f20388959c69723\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand and speak on this bill, the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. I want to give credit to my parliamentary colleague Te Ururoa Flavell for a number of things\u2014firstly, his passion to see people, particularly people who are close to him in his electorate, free from the problems of gambling addiction and to bring some answers to those wh\u0101nau and families. I also want to give him credit for being pragmatic and working through solutions with the Minister of Internal Affairs, the Hon Chris Tremain. I certainly would not consider Te Ururoa Flavell a mosquito by any means or in any regard, and I think that we on our side of the House would regard him as a colleague with whom we have been very happy to work towards his aims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E Going through the public submissions was very enlightening, I think, for all members of the Commerce Committee who were part of that and for some who came on as members of the committee during the process. We have heard from thousands of New Zealanders and we have heard from both sides of the argument, and I do not think there would be one person out there who would disagree with the aim of harm reduction for gambling. But there is a variety of opinion on how that ought to be achieved, and I would have to say there were a number of comments to say that people did not feel that some of the measures that were proposed were going to work as hoped. So that is why some of the amendments came through from the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EAlso, it would be true to say that quite a large number of people who came through said that we needed to have a wider review of the gambling laws. That is another reason why I believe that the Minister has been working with Te Ururoa Flavell, to look at a wider working programme around this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThere were a number of concerns regarding having local authorities as the entities that disburse the proceeds from gambling. There was not agreement that they would do it any better, perhaps at more expense and with less funding available for community groups, than what is currently happening. At the same time I believe that, as the member has mentioned, there was concern about what have been called rorts in the system. The Minister is well aware of the member\u2019s concerns about that and no doubt there will be measures put in place to better bring transparency to the matters concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EOne of the areas that attracted some concern was this matter of where racing is considered to be an approved cause or authorised purpose. That was one particular area that the committee did not accept in terms of the member\u2019s bill as it was originally presented to the committee. Essentially, we saw that the racing industry is very much contributing to the economy of the country, with 17,000 fulltime-equivalent employees, with a $1.6 billion annual contribution to the economy, and with the export industry of thoroughbreds out of this country to other countries of the world. We considered in the balance of things that the harm to that industry was also something to be considered, if they found that it became a retrenching industry because of these measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EYou know, those are all difficult decisions and difficult things to weigh up. I guess politics is full of trying to find an acceptable compromise, and, obviously, there are people on one side who agree, and people on the other side who disagree, on these sorts of measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EAll I can say is that this was an incredibly thorough process. There were 5,020 substantive submissions and 28,000 form submissions, with a total of 33,000 New Zealanders making their viewpoint known by one means or another. There was a tremendous amount of debate and discussion around the pros and cons of the money that is lost and the money that is utilised for community effort and concern. I found it quite a fascinating process to go through. I feel in the end that we\u2014along with what the Minister and Te Ururoa Flavell, my respected colleague, are working on towards the future\u2014hopefully, have a comprehensive package that is going to address some of the concerns that the member put through in his original bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIn terms of just a wrap-up to what I am saying this afternoon, one of the particular areas that the committee brought into the bill, which was not actually in the original member\u2019s bill, was this ability now for licences in low socio-economic areas in particular to be transferred out. There were grandfather provisions that kept them locked into those areas, which we felt was a real problem, and so we have added an amendment that would enable councils, with the agreement of the licence holders\u2019 venue owners, to transfer them out of those particular areas where there is some concern that in the past they may have been targeting people of low income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to be part of the process and I do trust that we can work together going forward for a good solution. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecb96d3026ef477f8d4f252ed2c152d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecb96d3026ef477f8d4f252ed2c152d1\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call at this stage of the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. I begin my just commending the member who has just resumed his seat, Jonathan Young. I attended not as a regular member of the Commerce Committee but for the purposes of this bill for most of the deliberation, and I thought that his competency in chairing was very, very commendable. We had some pretty heated debates, we had some pretty upset submitters\u2014and I will get back to them\u2014but I thought that the manner in which they were received and the order that was maintained on the committee was the way that other committees should operate in this House. I want to just note that to begin with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI also want to commend the member who introduced the bill, Te Ururoa Flavell. I agree with Jonathan Young that Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s motivation in bringing this bill about was absolutely exemplary, actually. He understands\u2014and many in this House now understand better because of the process of the bill\u2014the harm that is done in our society, which is caused not by the fact that people have a gambling problem but by the ability of people who have a gambling problem to access machines that take advantage of that addiction, and the problem those people have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo the responsibility that we have, as a Parliament, is to support those people so that they have less opportunity to spend their family budget in a way that if they did not have that problem they would not do, and to support them to spend their money responsibly. Our role is not to interfere in every person\u2019s life to make them live a life of blamelessness in total; it is to support people who have addictions that do harm and to ensure that the opportunities for those addictions to be abused by profit motives are reduced or eradicated. I think that was the intention behind this gambling harm reduction legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI really regret what the committee did with this bill in the end. I regret the deal that was done and I do not think that it is a good deal. I understand the dilemma that Te Ururoa Flavell\u2014I am assuming I do; it is bit presumptuous, but I would like to assume that I understand the dilemma that the member faced. He is really in a no-win situation unless he takes up an offer from the Government, because it was clear that National was not going to support the progress of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo the member can either stand on his high horse and say: \u201CNo, if I\u2019m not getting what I wanted, or at least if I am not going a long way towards that, I am going to withdraw my bill.\u201D That is actually what I would have done, given the deal that was reached in the end. Or he can choose to go down a different path and say: \u201CWell, I think I am making some progress and that is better than nothing.\u201D I do not think this is progress and I really regret that, because I think this was an opportunity for us\u2014though not to go to the lengths that the original bill proposed. I would have voted for it, but a lot of people were disturbed by it, and I do not think that it had been worked through quite hard enough despite the best efforts of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think this bill ends up doing the opposite of what was intended. I think this bill could do more harm than was intended, and certainly people who are experts in this area and who deal with the social consequences of problem gambling say that this bill should not progress. The Problem Gambling Foundation is the obvious organisation, but we also have the Salvation Army, an organisation that must be one of the most highly respected in terms of the work it does in the hardest area in our communities in supporting people, and we have Auckland University\u2019s school of population health. Those three organisations have taken a big step and gone public in opposition to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799ef5ac696443abb61f208fa2e86d7d\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am very happy to pick up the conversation that I started just before the dinner break when I was talking about the fact that I believe that the member whose name is attached to this bill, Te Ururoa Flavell, introduced it with the very best intentions, and that his aim was to introduce and have passed legislation that would genuinely reduce the harm that is done in our communities through gambling. It is my view and the view of other experts in this area that because of the deal that had to be done between the Minister of Local Government, Chris Tremain, and the member Te Ururoa Flavell, and because of the instructions the Commerce Committee got to alter the bill, this bill actually does not just not reduce harm but actually has the potential to cause more harm in the community. It is with deep regret that I will, therefore, be voting against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI have looked through the media response to the bill as was reported back from the select committee. Andr\u00E9e Froude of the Problem Gambling Foundation had this to say: \u201CThe bill is not going to live up to its name. It was put forward as a harm minimisation bill, effectively that\u2019s all been stripped away.\u201D This is one of the groups that supported the introduction of this legislation most strongly. The Associate Professor at the school of population health from Auckland University went so far as to say that he wanted the bill scrapped because of the changes that were put forward at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe director of the social policy research and parliamentary affairs unit from the Salvation Army, Major Campbell Roberts, has been a regular contributor to important debates of social justice and social policy in this Parliament over many years. He said that the proposed changes did nothing for problem gamblers, those at risk, or communities wishing to minimise the impact of gambling: \u201CFor those of us who deal with the problems created by pokie machines every day this bill, on balance, will make matters worse.\u201D That is from Campbell Roberts of the Salvation Army. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI really think that it is the responsibility of this Parliament not to listen to the rhetoric, not to listen to the slogans, but to listen to the people who deal with the impact of problem gambling in our homes, in our families, and in our communities. Those three experts whom I quoted, who have had very close involvement with the bill right from its introduction, said to vote against it; scrap it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd5d08cb19eb469daa7ee42da4af2fd9\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any explanation why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf5047a5704498d93ba4f40c2cfb794\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: There is more in the media, and perhaps at later stages of the bill I will be able to provide the member with more information in that regard. I do not have it right here, but I am happy to pick up that challenge; it is a good one, actually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI just want to make a couple of brief comments in relation to the comments that were made in earlier contributions about the large number of submitters who submitted on this bill and the overwhelming number of submitters who were opposed to the bill. It is my view that the bill was misrepresented to those organisations. They were told by the pokie trusts that the passing of Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s bill would mean that their organisation\u2014be it the local rugby club, bowling club, yacht club, or whatever\u2014would get no money in future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI do not believe that that was the intention of the bill, and I do not believe at all that had the bill been passed as it was introduced, that would have happened. It was not the intention of the legislation to deprive any of those community organisations of any funding. I resent the fact that our great community and voluntary organisations have been misled about the intention and the outcome of the bill. The intention, actually, was to stop the slicing of the profits from the pokies to the trusts, which stopped the profits going back into the community. The intention was to make sure that where the money was taken from, it was put back. So where there were large numbers of pokies in the lowest-income areas and all that money was coming out of those communities through the pokie machines, the intention was that the money went back into those communities, into those voluntary organisations, into those sports clubs, and into those social service organisations that do so much good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI regret not being able to vote for this legislation. I would have loved to have had a bill I could have supported. I resent the fact that I believe that our great community and voluntary organisations were misled by the trusts in an effort to get them to oppose the legislation. I do not think that they have had that rectified in the interim, since then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI hope that at some time in the future this Parliament has the ability, through the force of numbers, to take a more courageous step than what is going to be obvious in this legislation. And I hope that, in fact, perhaps in the debate tomorrow we can further our opposition to the proliferation of gambling, given the shonky deal that this Parliament will be voting on tomorrow when we look at the Skycity convention centre being traded off for a huge increase in pokie machines. The very day after Te Ururoa Flavell tries to reduce the harm of problem gambling in our society\u2014unsuccessfully, I believe, but I know the intention was genuine\u2014we will be voting on that shonky Skycity deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u002248c78db64f644894b4a49b40e03ac50c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248c78db64f644894b4a49b40e03ac50c\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure for me to take a call on this, the second reading of the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. I also want to thank Te Ururoa Flavell for his leadership on this issue. It is an important issue not just in my communities in Maungakiekie and South Auckland and Auckland but across this country. This is a scourge\u2014this gambling scourge\u2014that certainly needs to be addressed, and we are doing it with this bill. I want to acknowledge Te Ururoa Flavell for his leadership, and for his soon to be leadership of the M\u0101ori Party. He has been a great backbencher, and he will make a fine leader going forward in this Parliament, and with the M\u0101ori Party going forward. It is a pleasure for me to support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EAcross this House we have always accepted that gambling is a legal activity, and what this bill does is it regulates the access to gambling facilities. It attempts to minimise the harm around that activity. But gambling is not just the scourge of my communities. We all know that there are teachers, there are lawyers, and there are even politicians who gamble. So let us not say that this is a problem defined to one area, but across the country. It is also personal because I have had numerous constituents come into my electorate office in Onehunga in Maungakiekie, and I have seen the broken relationships. I have seen kids who have gone without the essentials, the broken families, and the broken relationships. It affects our communities right across this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe just heard Ruth Dyson talk about \u201Cher and other experts\u201D. I do not know how she can claim to be an expert alongside these other supposed experts who have made submissions on this bill. She named an academic. She named the Problem Gambling Foundation, which I acknowledge, and the Salvation Army, which does good work, but what this bill does is that it enables the introduction of harm minimisation devices through regulation. That is one thing. It will enable us to update regulations as these new technologies are advanced\u2014as they are developed. We have seen how in Australia they have had difficulties introducing some forms of these technologies, and so we have given within this bill greater flexibility through regulations to allow us to introduce those technologies when it becomes clear that they have an effect on problem gambling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ESecondly, this bill will enable us to ensure a minimum percentage of gambling proceeds will generally go to community groups in the area where they are raised. That allows for flexibility. I know the last member who spoke talked about how there were concerns that people were benefiting outside the areas of where the funds were generated, but we had some strong submissions from national organisations and regional organisations that would be impacted adversely should the corralling of funds be taken to the extreme in respect of local organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe third point I want to raise is that the bill also gives more flexibilities to councils to allow venues to move outside of low socio-economic neighbourhoods where that is supported by the venue and that local community. We saw in one of the submissions, where maps were shown of high-deprivation areas, where there were high concentrations of these machines. Certainly, our Government\u2014this National Government\u2014supports the movement of those machines away from those communities where they have been known to damage local people who have gambling problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe made some changes at the Commerce Committee. The original bill did talk about harm minimisation devices that may be introduced through licensing conditions. Well, we thought that introducing them on an ad hoc, case by case basis through licensing conditions was not the appropriate way to go in terms of progressing the bill. We thought that regulations would enable us to introduce new technologies on a mandatory basis nationwide rather than through those individual licences, and I think that this provision will work going forward. Although I am not entirely happy about how regulations are delegated to officials, to Ministers, and to future Parliaments\u2014personally, I think measures should be in the primary legislation and should be debated in this Chamber\u2014in my view, this particular clause will establish better technologies and more flexibility going forward, and it will go towards minimising harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EIn terms of venue transfers, the original bill would have allowed councils to shut down venues and ban gambling. In our view, as I have said earlier in my contribution tonight, gambling is a permitted activity, it is a legal activity, and this goes a step too far. So what we have said is that we will support the transfer of venues out of low socio-economic neighbourhoods and into areas like the central business districts of various cities and provinces. We support that. I think it is a good measure. It supports the sinking-lid policies that many councils already have in place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a58e594f0335431aba1ec040b7232142\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not what you\u2019re saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243fac7c513ab403e9da29831a9f9fb03\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: It may interest the House\u2014I know that Denise Roche there is a former councillor in Auckland\u2014that the number of pokie machines in this country has actually declined since this National Government has come into power. In the last 4 years it has declined, on average, by 550 machines a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b88026193024eba986a7940cb68cd50\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38ff72595ab4e8db1d86928e23f1772\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: 550 machines a year, Mr Bakshi. What that translates to is an 11.2 percent reduction in the number of pokie machines under this National Government. That is something we should be proud of as a National Government. That is something that the Opposition parties do not want to talk about\u2014that the amount of pokie machines in this country has come down. So when you translate the 230 machines that are under the New Zealand International Convention Centre deal\u2014just over 1 percent of the total pokies in this country, a quite insignificant number of machines\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224261b02e0c044f33a1f07f3bc5478c58\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Defensive\u2014here comes the guilt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022340f788267644f84989b149013ddb820\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: You think that the sky is falling. Andrew Little, or Chicken Little, thinks that the sky is falling when we are doing the convention centre deal tomorrow\u2014the legislation is having its first reading tomorrow\u2014when it is only 1 percent of total pokies in this country. It is only 1 percent of total pokies in the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EFurthermore, annual expenditure on pokie machines is falling. In 2008, when this National Government took over, it was $912 million\u2014$912 million. Today I can happily say that it has gone down to $840 million. So there is less money going into pokie machines today than under the Labour Government. The people opposite were responsible for $912 million, and it is now $840 million. That is 8 percent less money going into pokies, and 8 percent less damage in our communities. So that is something we can be proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe will debate that issue tomorrow night, but what I am saying about the local distribution of proceeds is that the original bill had 80 percent of gaming proceeds to be distributed in the local area. As I have already said, it really is about having the flexibility in the legislation, through regulations, because what sports clubs and other social service organisations that rely on gaming trust funding said to us inside of the select committee was that they did not want the adverse consequences of us messing around with the funding. It was not represented as the last member Ruth Dyson\u2014the so-called expert in gambling\u2014said. It was not about them saying that the money would go; it was about them saying that they were concerned that the risks were that they would not get the same amounts of money under another distribution mechanism. I think that is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI just want to say that this Government has already announced earlier this year $55 million with a 3-year strategy for problem gambling, $25 million for front-line intervention, $20 million for public health services, and $6.6 million for research evaluation. This Government is doing more than any other Government to minimise harm around gambling. This Government has reduced the number of pokies in our communities. This Government, by building the convention centre in 3 years, will produce jobs and opportunities to feed the kids of the families that need those jobs and opportunities. This Government stands for harm minimisation, jobs, and opportunities, and that is why the people of New Zealand support our Government. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u00228030f9b77d6145d8b593a88dce4858f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228030f9b77d6145d8b593a88dce4858f1\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I would like to rise to take this call for the Greens on the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. I will start my speech by also acknowledging the death of Maureen Waaka, who was on the board of the Problem Gambling Foundation of New Zealand, and was a stalwart defender of M\u0101ori and a support for M\u0101ori with gambling problems. She worked tirelessly to raise this as an issue in M\u0101ori communities and to try to address the harm caused by gambling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThis bill has come back to the House with its good intentions completely gutted, and it should be withdrawn by the member who has the bill in his name, Te Ururoa Flavell. It is a real shame, because the original intentions of the bill were sound. Those intentions were to give councils and communities the power to cut the number of pokies in the area or eliminate them altogether; ensure that at least 80 percent of the 37 percent of the funds that were distributed as grants from gambling machine losses be returned to the communities where the gambling took place; phase out the pokies trusts that distribute the gambling money from pokies, and replace them with more accountable committees under the control of local authorities; remove horse racing from the list of charitable purposes that can use the gambling funds; and introduce harm minimisation, player tracking, and pre-commit cards, enabling gamblers to put controls on the amount of time they spend and the money they lose while playing pokies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E What does this bill do? None of that. Why? Because the pokie trusts won. There were over 35,000 submissions on this bill. The majority of them came from community organisations that are the recipients of the money from class 4 gambling\u2014that is, the pokie gambling. Many of these organisations received letters from pokie trusts that have previously given them grants, encouraging them to put in submissions opposing the bill. One pokie trust, Pub Charity, went so far as to offer workshops to organisations that had received funding from it in the past. I know this because I asked submitters while they were giving their submissions. They were encouraged to write submissions to oppose the bill. These workshops also ensured that there was a lot of misinformation promulgated, and Ruth Dyson has already spoken about that. There were simply so many non-truths told that it was a big beat-up by the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003ELet us step back a minute and just remember what pokies are for and what pokie trusts are for. The Gambling Act says that the only reason\u2014the only reason\u2014pokies exist is to provide benefits through funding to the community. And it says that the money from pokies can be used only for authorised purposes, which are charitable purposes; non-commercial purposes that have community benefits; and promoting, controlling, and conducting race meetings. The only reason that pokie trusts exist is to distribute that money. I am not sure what others think of this, but I think pokie trusts using the money that should go to communities to wrangle community groups together to get them to oppose a bill that will make them go out of existence is absolutely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWe have also recently seen an example of, again, Pub Charity\u2019s Chief Executive Officer, Martin Cheer, deciding to punish Canterbury Cathedral by denying it funding because one member of the Anglican Church made a submission supporting the Flavell bill. And how did Martin Cheer know? He knew because he was in the room when the submission was given. He really could not have missed the submitter saying that he did not represent the Anglican Church, and that some people in the Anglican Church were worried that if they submitted, they would not be able to access funding in the future. And, lo and behold, that is exactly what has happened. So what we have here is a pokie trust that interferes in the democratic processes of the legislative system by using threats and rewards to get its own way. That is bullying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThis bill was attempting to deal to the pokie trusts and the rorts they get up to. An example\u2014and there are many\u2014from this year is that the Department of Internal Affairs is currently conducting a $30 million investigation into the racing industry in the South Island. That is $30 million of community funding going to racing, from three different trusts. This bill was an attempt to stop not just the rorts by pokie trusts but also the funnelling of money from pokies that are concentrated in poor areas to other regions, and to also stop the dodgy practice of funding the racing industry. If we think back to the intent of the original legislation, which was to provide funds for charitable, non-commercial purposes with community benefits, I cannot see that providing State money for racehorse owners is a particularly charitable act, particularly when you consider that the New Zealand Racing Board is already taking millions from racehorse betting anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EI note that the report from the Commerce Committee recommended including in the regulations the provision for 80 percent of the funds generated to be distributed back to the same area where the gambling took place. That is what it says in the bill. It also recommended that the actual harm minimisation measures\u2014the player tracking and the pre-commit cards\u2014also go into the regulations. But what that means is that they will have to consult further with the industry about these issues, and, as we have seen with this bill, the pokie industry has got ample money to organise opposition. Is it likely that the industry will agree to measures that reduce the amount of money being gambled? I do not think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWhat the industry will do, and what it has done, is sidetrack the deal with the least effective harm minimisation methods. The classic example is facial recognition technology as a harm minimisation tool, which was put forward to the select committee, and, I must say, the select committee became rather enamoured of it. But the thing about facial recognition technology is that it is like a self-imposed ban. It kicks in after the gambler has developed a problem and has already lost a lot of money, after they have already been sucked dry. Player tracking, on the other hand, is a predictive model, and pre-commit cards mean that every gambler has to decide before they start gambling how much they will spend. They are the ambulance at the top of the cliff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EPerhaps one of the saddest aspects of this bill now is that it actually makes things worse. The select committee has recommended that there be a provision for the transfer of pokies from one area to another. There was nothing in the original bill about this. This will enable pokies to shift their machines from poor areas, where they are concentrated, to other areas, without losing any of their machines. This provision will cut across the ability of councils to use a transferral provision to reduce the number of pokies in their communities, and I asked specifically about this. I asked whether councils could still require venues to drop some of their pokies as a condition of their being able to transfer, which was the policy of the last Auckland City Council, and I was told that they would not be able to do that with this provision in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThis is not giving communities a voice. This is not reducing harm. This is a win for the pokie trusts. This bill needs to be withdrawn. If it passes, we are likely to have a worse situation than we have already. There is a clear signal that this bill is dangerous. When the agencies that deal with the fallout and that pick up the pieces in the community from the harm caused by problem gambling\u2014and I quote the Salvation Army and the Problem Gambling Foundation\u2014are calling for this bill to be dropped, then there has to be some serious reasons for that. I have outlined a few of them. I will outline more as we progress this bill through the House. I appeal to the member Te Ururoa Flavell to heed those people and drop this bill. We will be opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002224e001936fc54aaf999065b99fcb6433\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224e001936fc54aaf999065b99fcb6433\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill and say that I acknowledge the member Te Ururoa Flavell and acknowledge the honourable intentions he had in bringing this bill to the House and addressing what is a growing issue and a growing problem for many communities. He was right in his motivations and in his intentions to want to get some sort of meaningful redress for the issues that we are now seeing emerging in our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think, in fairness, however, when we had a look at the original bill, it probably treated the issue too crudely. It probably treated the issue with a one-size-fits-all solution. A more, shall I say, nuanced approach was probably required, because the truth is that many Kiwis enjoy a little flutter. They enjoy a day at the races, they enjoy getting their Lotto tickets, and some, indeed, enjoy going down to the local RSA, to the \u201Ccossie club\u201D, or to the workingmen\u2019s club\u2014pardon the sexist name, but I did not call it that. They go down and they enjoy a bit of camaraderie, a bit of fellowship, and the odd flutter on the pokies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut there is a more insidious end of the industry, too, and it is that part of the industry that jacks up deals with hotels, with other public bars, and makes somewhat dubious arrangements with various sports clubs, which are required to patronise the bar. People are required to do various things in order to win grants or rewards from the pokies that occupy particular licensed premises. So Te Ururoa Flavell was right to want to address that issue and those establishments. He was right to want to make sure that we had a set of regulations and a legal framework that reflected the modern era and reflected the modern problems with gambling\u2014in particular, the extraordinary growth in the number of pokie machines, and the extraordinary growth of the number of those machines outside the more convivial, more, I think, socially aware environments of the \u201Ccossie clubs\u201D, the workingmen\u2019s clubs, and the RSAs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat was clear was that we had a piece of legislation, a member\u2019s bill, that went to the Commerce Committee that was ripe for good quality discussion and some good attention and refining, and it was aiming at those mischiefs that were really crying out for a remedy. What, in fact, we had from the Government members on the select committee was a complete denial of the problem and of the issue, and a failure to face up through this bill to what was needed, and what is needed, to address those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe bill has come back to the House looking the way we are feeling\u2014that is, totally gutted\u2014and it does not deal effectively with the harm minimisation measures that one might expect in the 21st century to see in premises where there are a large number of pokie machines. Really, the only meaningful thing it does now is allow the transfer of large numbers of pokie machines from one set of premises under the licensing control of a local authority to another set of premises, without reduction and without minimisation. To that extent, it simply does not go anywhere near to achieving the original objectives set for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo from my point of view, I feel very disappointed. Here was an opportunity we had as a House, albeit through a member\u2019s bill, to deal with this issue. In an ideal world it would have been a Government bill. A Government Minister, probably the Minister of Health, would, in an ideal world, have taken this issue seriously, would have worked with officials and had the benefit of the full power of the bureaucracy to get good advice and good drafting instructions, and would have put together a bill that met the problems that we know exist in the community when it comes to gambling. But that is not what this Government did. It left it to Te Ururoa Flavell, who has acted honourably and nobly in putting this bill together to try to address this particular problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill still does not address the issue of the pokie trusts, the very powerful organisations that control and manipulate not only the presence of the pokie machines but the distribution of their funds. It does nothing to address some pretty untoward behaviour that we know happens, where, effectively, conditions are put on grants and people are required to behave in certain ways. This bill does not deal with that. It does not go anywhere near it. This bill, rather than trying to manage effectively the existence and the growth of pokie machines, simply lets the existing arrangements continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe know that the original bill caused some anxiety amongst those members of the community\u2014the RSA clubs and the others, the charter clubs\u2014who approached the presence of pokies in their premises somewhat differently. The elderly folk who enjoy going down for a quiet sup with their mates down at their local club and who also occasionally enjoy a flutter need not have felt threatened by this piece of legislation, had it been able to be processed properly, carefully, and with a good set of principles and some good information behind it. But that, sadly, did not happen. The bill was entirely derailed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI have to say I take some umbrage, to be honest. I hear members opposite like Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, who come here crying their crocodile tears, worrying about people in the community. He has no concern about them at all. If he was genuinely concerned about the people in Maungakiekie and in other places that he claims to represent or reflect, he would have ensured that we had a bill that came back to this House that was in good shape, that actually addressed the issues that exist out there, and that genuinely brought some harm minimisation measures. Instead, what we have is a bill that has been entirely sliced, filleted, and gutted, and anything substantial, anything significant, and, indeed, I might add, anything positive has been removed from it. That is not the way we ought to be dealing with these sorts of public health issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThese issues, we know, are capturing a growing number of people. We have the estimate from the Problem Gambling Foundation that anywhere between 10,000 and 60,000 people in any one year can be affected by problem gambling. That is an issue that cries out for serious attention. It cries out for serious attention from the Government, but, in the absence of a Government Minister taking responsibility for it, it cries out for attention from this House. When we do have opportunities to address issues like that through bills like this that go to the select committee, that is a time for this House to take it seriously. That is a time to come up with, through good discussion and getting good advice, some practical measures that address the real problems, and that leave those who can responsibly enjoy a flutter, those who can responsibly enjoy a day at the races, and those who can responsibly enjoy an afternoon at the local club to get on and enjoy their time, their conviviality, and their camaraderie. But those who enter the realm of addiction and problem gambling are the people who need attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe should not baulk, as legislators, at passing legislation that poses obligations on those who benefit financially and those who clearly have a financial stake in peddling these devices and these machines, and imposing upon them obligations to take responsibility for those who are victims of the activities that they peddle and market. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing unethical about that. That is the responsible thing for us, as legislators, to do. Here we had an opportunity to do it, but we have a Government that is timid in the face of interests like the powerful gambling interests and the powerful pokie trusts. Its members\u2019 knees shake at the mere mention of those interests, and they simply do not have it within them to take seriously these particular issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing that we get to this point. From my point of view, I will be voting against this bill because it is, a bit like the last piece of legislation we considered, completely meaningless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022 data-id=\u00227b01dd8c876f44edba1cdb763c02ca3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b01dd8c876f44edba1cdb763c02ca3f\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First remains unchanged in its position on the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. This bill is intended to reduce harm caused by gambling to communities and families. It aims to achieve this objective by ensuring that the proceeds of gambling are distributed back into the community from which they came, and to give communities greater control over gambling operations. These are laudable goals, of course. However, we have serious reservations about the workability, clarity, and legal efficacy of the bill before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EFirst, let us address some of the changes recommended to the House by the Commerce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c571e8b9eb14423d846ff59af892b2da\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this member emailing Trevor Mallard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be183efea474d0faddfea0695b15b0e\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: Listen, Simon Bridges, you might learn something. When this bill was debated at its first reading, we raised an objection to clause 5. This clause would have seen racing removed as an authorised purpose in section 4 of the Gambling Act. There are 63 racing clubs throughout New Zealand. These clubs have been recognised by the High Court as non-commercial\u2014non-commercial. They are non-profit organisations that function in much the same way as sports clubs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1203ce2734e49b1b473a21c62157a28\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Prove it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cb8353c810a4a6c83ff44ca5c3be13b\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: Do not get lost in your thoughts, honourable Minister; it is unfamiliar territory. To treat them differently under the law for political purposes would have been a low blow even for the National Government. So it is with great relief that we acknowledge the deletion of clause 5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe second change that the select committee has recommended to the House is in regard to the distribution of funding within localities. Clause 6(1) of the bill proposed that 80 percent of all funds derived from gambling be mandatorily distributed back into the same territorial authority in which they were raised. We said we were prepared to support such an amendment with the proviso that the responsibility for managing these funds be established within a national framework, rather than left up to individual authorities. At present, 36 percent is given back. Mr Flavell actually wanted 80 percent. He got only up to 40 percent, which is a mere 4 percent increase from the current status. That takes it from 36 percent to 40 percent. This much-watered-down bill now proposes to replace the clause 6 amendment with an instruction to the Department of Internal Affairs to simply take into account the geographical area where proceeds were generated. In other words\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220aecdadd70b4e55b26a156f08593440\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s forming her own party, Denis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e37a0c484424993a15eece19c756ebd\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in other words, honourable Minister, nothing really changes. New Zealand First was prepared to reconsider its position on Mr Flavell\u2019s bill if and when appropriate changes were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d68df6ccb7944b4a716165657d24c49\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re the Government that spent a lot of money on travel\u2014changed nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d552a2305158427fa8da11f70e4e1537\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we have got somebody over there who is very smart. You know, a smart man believes only half of what he hears; a wise man knows which half\u2014a wise man knows which half. Unfortunately, this much-watered-down version does nothing to alleviate our concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c7158f9d1d24e4b8c3baca2758f1879\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: That was pretty good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b3679ce1094845951a6eed55fa5152\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: I know it is pretty good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First acknowledges that gambling is a serious problem in the community. It is a serious problem in the community. That is why we opposed the Skycity pokies deal. It is also why we were the first party to raise concerns about the sordid relationship between China Southern Airlines and Skycity. However, this bill offers no solution. It offers nothing but more bureaucracy and broken promises from the National - M\u0101ori Party alliance. I believe that Mr Flavell\u2019s Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill, just like the flailing M\u0101ori Party itself, should be consigned to the dustbin of history. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u00227b5a4f56c8614f5baf25d5276fb514e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b5a4f56c8614f5baf25d5276fb514e2\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to stand and speak on this part of the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. First of all, I would like to acknowledge Te Ururoa Flavell for his work on this bill. I would also like to acknowledge the officials and the Commerce Committee for their consideration of this bill. To start with, I would like to touch on gambling\u2014the harm of gambling, that we have been taught from our childhood. Dr Rajen Prasad must know the epic of Mahabharata, which is the narrative of the War of Kurukshetra, and that war is based on gambling. The gambling game between Kauravas and Pandavas saw a hundred thousand people lose their lives during that war. That is a lesson that we have been taught from childhood\u2014that gambling is not a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThe Government recognises this and we are working on it. We will see that the Minister will be introducing some more measures before the end of this year. The purpose of this bill is to provide additional measures to prevent and minimise the harms caused by gambling and ensure that money from gambling benefits the community and assists community involvement in the decisions regarding gambling. Gambling-machine venues tend to be overly represented in lower-income communities and town centres. M\u0101ori and Pacific Island areas are effectively being targeted and often are severely harmed by the use of these machines. Communities in South Auckland, and especially in my area of South Auckland, have been very vocal in their representation against the number of pokie machines. The National Government takes this problem very seriously. This bill enables the introduction of harm minimisation devices, and in addition to this we have $55 million being invested over 3 years to focus on people getting the assistance they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThere were a number of submissions received by the select committee, and most of the submissions came from the people who have experienced harm from pokie machines, and they gave their personal accounts of lives that have been torn apart by pokie machines. This bill seeks to overcome the vulnerable locations, and reduce or transfer the majority of the pokies, or even eliminate pokies from those suburbs and towns where they are particularly concentrated or doing particular harm. In fact, many communities at risk have voiced their feelings concerning the pokie machines in their areas and have been successful in having them removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThe bill especially requires all pokie-machine trusts, corporate societies, and other distributors of the proceeds of gambling machines to return at least 80 percent of their funds generated by the gambling losses on local pokie machines back into the charitable organisations that are meeting priority needs in the same local authority area as the venue. However, this would mean that the groups in other areas, including rural areas, might miss out on some of the funding if they are limited, and indeed if no machines in these areas are there. For example, the majority of the pokie machines are situated in the central business districts of the large cities, and therefore the provision of 80 percent requirement would mean that the funding is returned to the communities other than those from which the money was raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EGamblers who experience problems with their behaviour when using pokie machines will benefit from the $55.3 million, 3-year strategy on problem gambling. The provision will include front-line assistance and support in the form of safe gambling practices and raising the awareness of the dangers of gambling. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022f43ada8f34d64598821bff951231f6fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f43ada8f34d64598821bff951231f6fd\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is a serious issue that I think some members of the Commerce Committee\u2014well, in fairness, I think generally all members of the committee\u2014tried to deal with as we had submission after submission mainly from people, as colleagues have said, who have experienced extreme problems, or represent or attempt to care for those people who have extreme problems, in the community as a result of gambling. Like, I think, Mr Little and others have said about all forms of addiction or forms of recreation or whatever, if one overindulges, these can become problems\u2014whether it be alcohol, gambling, or other issues. That does not mean, of course, that the vast majority in our society, as Mr Little said, cannot enjoy a flutter, whether it be on the horses or on the pokies or on other forms of gambling\u2014internet, or what have you\u2014without the devil grabbing them by the throat and them becoming addicted to that form of gambling, and that then having an insidious, negative impact, both on the lives of the gambler and, obviously, on the lives, generally, of loved ones and family around them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI recall some years ago a woman constituent coming to my office. She came with her kids. She turned up in tears, very upset, and said that she was in difficulty. She had no money. She needed housing and what have you. You would think that was almost a generic case of somebody who had been booted out of home. Had the landlord thrown them out? Had the home been sold? I said to her: \u201CWe\u2019ll get you to Work and Income. What have you got?\u201D. She said to me: \u201CI\u2019ve got nothing.\u201D I said: \u201CWhat do you mean? Has your husband left you, or whatever?\u201D. She replied: \u201CNo. We have no home. The home has gone. The bank has it. We have no assets. The bank accounts have been cleaned out. I have nothing.\u201D, and she meant that all she had was what she and her kids stood up in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs we got through the conversation, she relayed the simple fact that her husband, unbeknownst to her, had a major gambling problem. I cannot recall exactly what form of gambling it was. It was not racing. It was other forms of gambling\u2014pokies and other things, I believe. But he had basically mown down the family resources. He had sold the house out from under her, or the bank had repossessed it\u2014I think that is how it went. The bank accounts had been cleaned out, and various other chattels and assets had been sold off to try to pay gambling debts. She literally had nothing\u2014zero. She felt, obviously, a degree of ill will towards her husband, but she loved her husband and she realised that he had a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI recall the case of that woman and her family\u2014I think we got them some assistance, but I do not know what the future held for them. But their lives at that point were destroyed. You could cast blame on the bloke, on the relationship, and on all sorts of things, and I was never close enough to it to make a judgment, but for whatever reason that bloke had a problem and it was an addiction to gambling. It had destroyed not only his life but, I suspect\u2014hopefully, not ultimately\u2014the lives, at that time anyway, of his family members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf you look at the figures, we are advised that at any given time between 0.3 percent and 1.8 percent of adults living in the community in New Zealand are likely to score on standard questionnaires as problem gamblers, which equates to between 10,000 and 60,000 people. It is a problem. It is a hard problem to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have got to say that I oppose this legislation, for many of the reasons that other colleagues have said. I think this bill, to be blunt\u2014and no disrespect to Mr Flavell\u2014was ill-conceived in the form that it came in. I think we, generally, across the House tried to come up with some ways of achieving at least some of the objectives in a balanced way to address some of the problems. I think some of the problems that Mr Flavell brought to the committee were valid, and others were less so, but it gave us an opportunity to try to bring a bill out of the committee that had some worth and some value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think, putting politics aside, there would not be too many in the House who would disagree with the fact that gambling in its forms is a problem. That does not mean it should be outlawed as a recreational opportunity for people. It means we have got a problem. Some people are addicted. We have got to deal with them. But I have got to say, when you look at this piece of legislation, that there are effectively only four clauses that survive from the original bill. The rest of the bill has been gutted, changed, amended, or whatever. The assessment that we make on this side of the House, and that colleagues who have more knowledge than me of these matters have made, is that this bill is ineffectual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E In fact, there are those like the Salvation Army that have criticised the changes in this bill, saying that they do nothing for problem gamblers\u2014those at risk\u2014or for communities wishing to manage the impact of gambling. They say: \u201CFor those of us who deal with the problems created by pokie machines every day this Bill on balance will make matters worse.\u201D Again, putting the politics aside, the Salvation Army is not a political organisation. It is a charitable organisation with, you have got to say, a pretty amazing lineage, a pretty amazing history. Those folks in the Salvation Army know about these issues. They work with these folks, they work with the lost and lonely over a wide range of issues, and they do know about this. And I say to the Government that, really, apart from the politics of this, those over the other side who are in charge of this bill should really take heed of organisations like the Salvation Army. If those organisations are saying that this bill will make matters worse in respect of problem gambling, and if they are criticising this bill and saying that it does not have value, then we should really heed that. I would counsel those in Government to maybe look at pulling this bill and doing it properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Government has not listened to organisations like the Salvation Army. I think we would all agree that the Salvation Army is not political. If it criticises something\u2014it criticised things we did in Government\u2014it is generally for the best motives, for very good reasons, and based on evidence, research, and experience. If it is going out and saying quite clearly that on balance it will make matters worse in respect of problem gambling, then you have got to ask yourself whether we have failed as a Parliament, and failed those 10,000 to 60,000 people who, at any given time, have the devil grabbing them by the throat in the form of this addiction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I suppose the question for the Government\u2014and I would like an explanation from the Minister as we sort of mow through this piece of legislation\u2014is that, presumably, officials have advised and have counterarguments in respect of the Salvation Army\u2019s criticism, and I think we need to hear those in order to get some understanding as to why the Government is going to force this through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe had submissions from many organisations. I see, I think, the Minister of Internal Affairs, who is, I suspect, in charge of this, or ultimately responsible for this bill. I am glad he is here. Minister, I was just saying to the House that, given that the Salvation Army has criticised this bill and has said that it will make matters worse for those with problem gambling, I would be grateful if, at the appropriate time, you as Minister would provide us in Parliament with the advice or counter-advice that attempts to negate the criticism of a very venerable organisation made up of specialists who deal every day with folks who have this problem. They do not lightly make judgments like this on pieces of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI see there are some clauses around mobility of gaming machines. There is not anything in here in respect of communities making and taking decisions about the numbers of machines, or sinking-lid policies, or those sorts of things that are in their jurisdiction. Again, with this bill, Parliament is sort of taking a blanket approach to telling communities what to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I have a plea in respect of this. I am sure that if we all looked at our constituent case files over the years, we would have examples similar to the one that I gave of the woman and her family who lost everything in relation to gambling. We could dredge those files out. They would pull at the heartstrings, because there is no early warning system. That is the problem with this addiction: there is no early warning system. If you are a drunk, say, there are some pretty physical and visible early warning systems that advise people around you, sometimes graphically and violently, that you have an alcohol problem. Often, as with the problem in the example I used, there is no early warning. In the case of this woman, the bank accounts were gone\u2014cleaned out. She had no idea. She was a good person. There was no physicality about the symptoms of addiction in respect of her husband. So I say to the Government as we proceed through that we need to know and we need to see the advice that counters the Salvation Army\u2019s criticism. Organisations like that must indeed be listened to, and we need to take this matter seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u002201500c244e4d4206a1d91f20bc22ab70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201500c244e4d4206a1d91f20bc22ab70\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. I would first like to thank Mr Te Ururoa Flavell from the M\u0101ori Party for introducing the bill, and I would also like to thank my colleague and chair of the Commerce Committee, Mr Jonathan Young. Jonathan has done an excellent job in chairing the committee over the process of improving this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EWe all agree that gambling can cause harm to some people and communities. The purpose of the bill was to provide additional measures to prevent and minimise the harm caused by gambling, to ensure that the money from gambling benefits the community, and to facilitate community involvement in decisions about the provision of gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThere were some things in the original bill that the Government did not support, but the select committee has made a range of sensible and balanced changes. For instance, the original bill said that the harm minimisation devices may be introduced only through societies\u2019 licence conditions. The select committee recommended a regulation-making power instead. Regulations enable us to introduce new technologies on a mandatory basis nationwide rather than through each individual licence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003ESimilarly, the bill as originally introduced would have required at least 80 percent of all funds derived from pokie machine gambling to be distributed back into the same territorial authority district. The select committee noted the support for the principle of returning net proceeds to the area where the gambling took place. However, the select committee noted that requiring all pokie machine gaming societies to distribute their net proceeds to locally defined areas would also create other complications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EFor example, gaming machines are not evenly spread across electoral districts, and restricting distribution would have resulted in little or no proceeds being distributed in some areas. So, again, the committee recommended the introduction of a regulation-making power instead. The regulation-making power would enable better targeting of the distribution of proceeds and take into account the fact that the gaming machines are used by people from outside the areas in which they are located. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EAlso, the bill as proposed would have effectively removed racing clubs from the industry. The amended bill reverses this proposal. The Commerce Committee took the view that as non-profit organisations providing facilities to community groups, racing clubs were similar to other sports clubs, and that the removal of funding from this source would have an adverse effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThe Government appreciates that harm is caused by gambling. It imposes various levies and duties on the proceeds of gambling to deal with this, along with other initiatives to mitigate problem gambling. The select committee\u2019s changes make parts of the bill easier to implement while removing some parts that were not supported by submitters. So I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00229840053364ab43c69df39a4de32219f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229840053364ab43c69df39a4de32219f2\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call on the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. Labour is treating this as a personal vote, a conscience vote, so this is my contribution to it. I do want to say that I believe that Te Ururoa Flavell came in good faith with a bill that had some very good intentions. Certainly, I think, looking at the Commerce Committee process, there were 4,944 submissions, and also 29,438 form submissions. So, clearly, this bill had a great deal of interest. Without knowing the details, I suspect that, actually, the majority of the submissions that were heard and were received were from organisations that are very concerned about the harm that gambling does to our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe sad thing about this bill is that it has been hijacked by the National Party, and it does barely anything to reduce gambling harm. In fact, some organisations, as we have heard tonight\u2014for example, the Salvation Army and the Problem Gambling Foundation\u2014are saying that the changes will do nothing. The changes in this bill that have been made by the select committee will do nothing for problem gamblers and those in the communities who are wishing to manage the impact of gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E What is the size of the problem we are talking about here? In New Zealand there are 1,381 gambling venues, six casinos, 17,670 non-casino pokies, 199 tables, and 2,826 casino pokie machines. It is that third figure that gets me, really. There are 17,670 non-casino pokie machines that we now have throughout New Zealand\u201417,670, which is incredible. In poorer areas the ratio of pokies to people is 1:75, whereas in wealthier areas the ratio is 1:465. That means a young person growing up in a poorer area is going to be exposed to six times more pokie machines than a young person in a well-off community. I really believe, as I said at the beginning, that Te Ururoa Flavell came with very good intentions for this Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill, and it is very disappointing that we have ended up with a bill that is not going to address any of those problems that I have just been talking about. In fact, as I have said, some organisations are saying that it is going to make it worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ESome of the changes that have been made by the Commerce Committee effectively gut the bill. When you look at the bill, you can see through the bill page after page of ruled-out clauses\u2014page after page. It just goes on and on and on. The National members on the select committee have marched in and have completely redacted this bill, actually. It bears no resemblance to its former self. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe bill leaves gaming trusts in control of the distribution of funds, and will not require gaming trusts to return 80 percent of the funds to the district where the gambling occurred. We will introduce a Supplementary Order Paper to rectify this issue. A few years ago the Manukau City Council conducted an investigation into how much money was being spent from pokie machines in that area, in that poor area, and how much was actually coming back to the community. It turns out that it was $90 million in deficit. It was actually costing that community $90 million to have all those pokie machines. This bill does not do anything about that. It does not do anything about helping councils to reduce and eliminate pokies in some areas, because it allows operators to simply move elsewhere, while retaining the same number of pokie machines. The Problem Gambling Foundation chief executive said the amendments to the bill mean it is effectively now misnamed, because it will have little, if any, effect on problem gambling. It is a great pity. It is a great missed opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3769fdf697f4945b9d14ab8757e568a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3769fdf697f4945b9d14ab8757e568a\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I have examined my conscience, as have my colleagues, and it is with significant disappointment that we find ourselves unable to support this Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill, and, in fact, we find ourselves asking the member to withdraw it. Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s intent was honourable, and we were all significantly and really encouraged at how directly this bill sought to address the actual harms associated with pokies in this country and the very corrupt industry that has thrived around pokie machines in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe original bill set out to do five key things. First, it sought to give councils and communities the power to cut the number of pokie machines in their area or eliminate them altogether. That intent is gone. Secondly, it sought to ensure that at least 80 percent of the distributable funds would be returned to the area where the gambling took place. That intent is gone. Thirdly, it sought to replace the trusts that currently distribute the funds from gambling with more accountable organisations set up by local authorities. That intent is gone. Fourthly, it sought to remove horse racing from the list of charitable purposes that may receive gambling proceeds. That intent is gone. Lastly, it sought to introduce harm minimisation mechanisms like player tracking and mandatory pre-commitment cards, to put controls on the amount of time and money that could be lost by gamblers. That intent is gone. Of the five core purposes in this bill that so encouraged us and that sought to address the real harm created by the pokie industry in this country, we are left with nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe Green Party\u2019s view is that this bill as it is reported back to the House does not achieve any of the aims listed above, and in one part it will actually restrict the right of councils wanting to reduce the number of pokies through their own transfer policies. Yes, that is right. It will actually hinder initiatives to reduce the harm. This bill does not do anything that it sought to do, and it undermines some of the very few current initiatives we have to address harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis is not just our own opinion, either. It has been echoed by the Salvation Army, the Problem Gambling Foundation, and Associate Professor Peter Adams from the school of population health at Auckland University, who have also taken the very significant step of asking the member to withdraw this bill. They made a very clear statement on how they see it now: \u201CFor those of us who deal with the problems created by pokie machines every day this bill, on balance, will make matters worse.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAlong with my colleagues, I have examined my conscience. I have considered the harm that pokies do to this country. I have looked at this bill and I have asked myself: \u201CWill this help?\u201D, and the answer is a very clear no. This bill will, in fact\u2014against all the wishes, I am sure, of the member who introduced it\u2014create more harm than it does good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EFinally, I do want to remind this House and those members who are considering voting for this bill that New Zealand loses $2.3 million every single day from non-casino pokies in this country. That comes right out of the pockets and takes the food off the table of some of the people in the country who most need it, and it is going into corrupt businesses. It is something we have a duty to stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022feb298d6bf664d518ebb198643409efe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feb298d6bf664d518ebb198643409efe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to speak on Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill this evening and to counter some of the hyperbole from Opposition members who have decided to vote against this very worthy bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI want to just quote Darien Fenton, because Ms Fenton used some statistics that were very pertinent to this debate. Ms Fenton said that poorer communities in New Zealand have present in them one pokie machine to 75 people, compared with wealthier communities in this country, which, she quoted, have a proportion of one pokie machine to 465 people. She went on to say that poorer communities have six times the exposure to pokie machines than that of wealthier communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EAt the very heart of Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s bill, which is before the House tonight, it allows communities the voluntary choice to actually change that, to take venues from those poorer communities and to put them in different locations. The Opposition, the Greens and Labour, is saying that it is opposed to allowing the movement of pokie venues from poor communities to other communities. Shame on the Opposition! It is appalling\u2014appalling. It is voluntary for councils to be able do this, and we are providing the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E Here is the situation: if you are a pokie venue with 18 machines in a poor community, guess what? Even with a sinking-lid policy in your community you cannot move, even if the community wants you to go. Why? Because if you move, you lose your business. You cannot go anywhere. So what do they do? They put their roots down and they stay there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0c0a4afb7d4cbea1128c1e105666a1\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor\u003C/span\u003E: What a lot of nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c44b290d1a824d4d9c6e1be8651355d5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: She says it is a lot of nonsense. That is the fact. These are the statistics that the Opposition members quoted, and they want to vote against it. Why? The Opposition was looking for a reason to vote against this very good bill. That is the fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EAnother key point in Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s bill is a regulation-making power to allow the distribution of funds into communities. That allows us to go out and sensibly ask communities how much of the funds that are being distributed in communities are to be distributed on a national basis\u2014not just to take an arbitrary 80:20 rule. There are organisations out there in New Zealand\u2014rescue helicopter trusts, St John Ambulance\u2014who benefit from national contributions. For us to just arbitrarily go out there and deliver 80:20 is not sensible. So we have made a commitment: a regulation-making power that will allow us to distribute those funds throughout New Zealand and to go out and actually consult on a sensible basis. It is my commitment to the House that we will do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f164a1b055cc4219a5d71f11b9eaa718\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t believe you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221efb329107694ed99e414e85440eca49\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: We will do that. Well, it will be interesting to watch the Opposition vote against that particular thing as well as we look to distribute funds throughout New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EAnd the third thing that the Opposition wants to vote against tonight is harm minimisation. We have taken what is a\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228956dc2eab1941a3b0c62ffbdf5ddd51\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Where is the harm minimisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a282b5a49be44d598c11af68ec9652a5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they are voting against the opportunity for a Minister in this House to have a regulation-making power that simplifies the process to implement harm-minimisation technology. That is what it does. It simplifies the ability for a Minister to put sensible technology across the industry. That is really interesting\u2014these guys want to vote against harm minimisation. That is what they are doing. The Greens and Labour are voting against harm minimisation. They are voting against taking pokie machines out of poor communities. That is what is happening. Shame on you. And they are doing it for politics. They do not like it, that is a fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI just want to back up the truck slightly. This National Government came into this period saying that we would review the policy around class 4 gambling. That is a commitment that we have undertaken. We also said that we would agree to support Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s bill going to the select committee. We have done that. What we have done is we also set a number of key goals for reform in this sector. The first was to enhance the protections for problem gamblers. The second was to increase transparency and to address conflicts of interest, because there have been rorts in this sector\u2014no one is denying that. We have said we want to develop a way for gambling proceeds to be generally distributed in the area in which they were raised. We also want to simplify compliance for societies, venues, and the Department of Internal Affairs by simplifying the process, making compliance by venues better, and improving transparency. We also want to increase the proportion of proceeds that the community receives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESo what we have tried to do is find a balanced way through this process; find a way where we could support parts of Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s bill that actually delivered on those core objectives and, at the same time, we announced in conjunction with Te Ururoa Flavell through negotiation some of the other things that would deliver on those core objectives. So we have done that\u2014we announced in conjunction with that a range of initiatives that will deliver on those things, which I am really pleased to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we have announced just in the last 3 weeks that goes to the heart of problem gambling and looking after those people who do suffer from this addiction is a $55.3 million strategy over 3 years. This is the fourth strategy that actually goes to the heart of trying to help those families who have a problem gambler in them. Everybody in this House wants that to happen. There is $20.5 million for public health services focused on prevention and education awareness, there is $6.6 million in that strategy for research and evaluation, and there is $25.3 million for front-line intervention. That is a significant strategy to help those people who are most at risk of harm. My plea, actually, to people out there who have a member of their family who is addicted to problem gambling is to actually use these services\u2014to refer that member of the family to those services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn those goals that I set out\u2014increasing the proportion of proceeds the community receives; simplifying compliance for societies, venues, and for the Department of Internal Affairs; for developing a way for gambling proceeds to be generally distributed in the area they were raised; to enhance protections for problem gamblers; to increase transparency; and to address conflicts of interest\u2014we have found a way, through working with Te Ururoa Flavell, to achieve three of those key goals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI just want to highlight those excellent initiatives in the bill, because I do not believe for a minute that the bill, in those three areas, has been watered down. I think, in fact, we have enhanced the bill, and we are delivering opportunities in those three areas, particularly in harm-minimisation technology, which I talked about before. The regulation-making power actually makes it easier for us to implement harm-minimising technology across the sector\u2014not licence by licence. Labour and the Greens are voting against that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EWe have also implemented a way for venues to be transferred out of poor areas. Ms Fenton talked about the statistics and the extra numbers of venues that are in poor areas. They in the Opposition are now going to vote against an opportunity to move venues out of poor areas. Shame on you! Shame on you! We have also got a sensible method of looking seriously at how we can distribute funds back into those communities where they were raised. A regulation-making power and a discussion document will allow us to do that and to land that in a position where, I think, the majority of funds will end up back in those communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESo I think there are some great opportunities, Te Ururoa, from this bill, in conjunction with the other initiatives that I have also announced at the same time that more funding will be aimed at going back to the community. For every 1 percent that we can lift the funds back into communities, we put another $8.5 million back into communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520fd99c933f4757b56bb8bf91d450ba\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d9b8a91fe10412eb323e43a0c27633c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Another $8.5 million. No doubt the Opposition will vote against that. These are sports clubs, these are all sorts of organisations who benefit from this, and we will be able to help move that on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EWe are also looking to lower compliance, increase the transparency, and improve the conflict of interest provisions. This all helps. I am proud to be here tonight supporting Te Ururoa Flavell and working together in partnership to improve class 4 gambling. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00223a23863c27a24d18a3f60961a5a0d0eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a23863c27a24d18a3f60961a5a0d0eb\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The debate has now concluded. There are two questions: the first regarding the amendments from the select committee, then the question on the second reading. So I will put the first question, and that question is that the amendments recommended by the Commerce Committee by majority be agreed to. Those of that opinion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffbca90b5b66408d8184a2d81f0fa049\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Are you going to call for a personal vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ab6a88beb6441bb4055699ac9e24f7\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have not got to that stage yet. The question is that the amendments recommended by the Commerce Committee by majority be agreed to. Those of that opinion will say Aye, to the contrary, No. The Ayes\u2014[Interruption] A personal vote will now be called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b67cd3e3eda94952aa17a55042e5ded3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA personal vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Commerce Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\n        \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\n          \u003Ctable\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EAdams (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EEnglish (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKey (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESharples 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\u003Ctd\u003ECosgrove (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHughes\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EO\u2019Connor D (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETurei (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECunliffe (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHuo (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EO\u2019Rourke\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETwyford (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECurran (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EJones (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EParker (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWalker\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDalziel (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKing A (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPeters (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWall (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDelahunty (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELees-Galloway\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPrasad\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWilliams (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDunne (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELittle\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EProsser (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWoods\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFaafoi (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELogie\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERobertson G (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFenton\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELole-Taylor\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERobertson R\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGenter (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMackey\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERoche\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETeller:\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGoff (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMahuta (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESage\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDyson\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n          \u003C/table\u003E\n        \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022690fc09d20a445c1af077c0a3f3958a2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA personal vote was called for on the question, That the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\n        \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\n          \u003Ctable\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EAdams (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EEnglish (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKey (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESharples\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EArdern S (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFinlayson (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKing C\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESimpson (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EAuchinvole\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFlavell\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELee (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESmith (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBakshi\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFoss (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELotu-Iiga (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETisch (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBanks (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFoster-Bell\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMacindoe\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETolley (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBarry\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGoldsmith (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMcClay (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETremain\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBennett D (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGoodhew (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMcCully (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETuria (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBennett P (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGroser (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMcKelvie\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EUpston\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBorrows\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGuy (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMitchell (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWagner (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBridges (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHauiti\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ENgaro (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWilkinson (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBrownlee (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHayes (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EO\u2019Connor S \u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWilliamson (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECalder\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHeatley (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EParata\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWoodhouse (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECarter (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHenare (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERoy (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EYang\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EColeman (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHutchison (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERyall (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EYoung (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECollins (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EJoyce (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESabin (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETeller:\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDean (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKaye (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EShanks (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERoss\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n          \u003C/table\u003E\n        \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\n        \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\n          \u003Ctable\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EArdern J (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGraham (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMallard\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EShearer (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBeaumont\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHague (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMartin\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESio\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBrowning (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHarawira (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMathers (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EStewart\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EClark (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHipkins (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMoroney\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EStreet\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EClendon (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHoran\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ENorman (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETirikatene\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECosgrove (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHughes\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EO\u2019Connor D (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETurei (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECunliffe (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHuo (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EO\u2019Rourke\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETwyford (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECurran (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EJones (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EParker (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWalker\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDalziel (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKing A (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPeters (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWall (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDelahunty (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELees-Galloway\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPrasad\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWilliams (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDunne (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELittle\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EProsser (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWoods\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFaafoi (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELogie\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERobertson G (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFenton\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELole-Taylor\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERobertson R\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGenter (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMackey\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERoche\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETeller:\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGoff (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMahuta (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESage\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDyson\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n          \u003C/table\u003E\n        \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226736ef866a0a4e9da959176ece9be9e4\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Statutory Minimum Redundancy Entitlements) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ff863868cbf49c1a7cb49ea1f117bc7\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000658\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 15 May.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022eec746fd3784437e966ce26cbb25ba8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eec746fd3784437e966ce26cbb25ba8a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: By rotation, the Government would have the next call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7b21ea1913e42e3915756c9d03a9990\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7b21ea1913e42e3915756c9d03a9990\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is an enormous pleasure to have this opportunity to take a relatively short call on this Employment Relations (Statutory Minimum Redundancy Entitlements) Amendment Bill, which Sue Moroney, our colleague across the Chamber, has brought to the House. It is a member\u2019s bill in the name of Sue Moroney set down for the first reading and we are picking up the baton, as we have had a number of speeches on this issue before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EI regret to say to my colleague across the House that it is, unfortunately, not a bill of principle. And why is this? Well, there are a few reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222952dd66a2cd46fd9e68c8653d5f721f\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Because you hate workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a56e9cb899a4f78b6853f87a1911260\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: What was that? I am a horny-handed son of toil myself, Mr Little. I just ask this question: if this is so important, why did Labour not do anything about it in its 9 years? Why was that? Why was that? OK, Labour did introduce the Employment Relations Act 2000. This was a major overhaul, the Employment Relations Act, of the labour legislation in New Zealand. It was also the first major piece of legislation introduced by the last Labour Government, and it was touted at the time as a great reform\u2014and, to be fair, it was a great reform for the labour sector. It was meant to cure all the supposed inequality in bargaining power between employers and employees. Yet at no point\u2014at no point\u2014did Labour members talk about redundancy requirements. I do not recall them talking about redundancy before. They never mentioned it. Why was that? It was because they knew it was too much of a burden upon our businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EBut let us look at what a previous Labour Government Minister has said about the labour market and, in fact, the Employment Relations Act, which the Clark Labour Government passed. You might remember this gentleman\u2019s name. Phil Goff said: \u201CThe Labour Government has moved away from the type of interventionism that saw our economy become less adaptive, less competitive, more debt-ridden and bureaucratised, and that saw our living standards fall over time and employment rise.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deaafde1bb624c8f8e72d7514617ea6f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Who wrote that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e4bdab761f468fabdbd5a0a9d2f127\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: It was Phil Goff, actually\u2014Phil Goff. \u201CIt is a Government that has sought more market influence and efficiency going forward.\u201D So that is what Phil said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79a88d64d7c4881a2e61309e49a78af\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7c30b1740245b18bf2a2d8489d5242\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: That is what Mr Phil Goff, the Hon Phil Goff, said. That is what he said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWe are committed as a Government to creating jobs and fostering economic growth. Statutory redundancy provisions, we believe, act as a barrier to employers taking on new staff, because we believe that redundancy entitlements generally are a matter for employees and employers to bargain for in an employment agreement that is relative to their industry and the size of their business. Small and medium sized businesses may be disadvantaged and are unlikely to be able to cope with significant redundancy payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E It is worthwhile considering just what some of these costs to business would be. At the current minimum wage of $13.75 per hour, an employer would be required to pay a full-time, 40-hours-per-week employee who had worked for 1 year $2,200 gross.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b0ca92d53d475caf8a34814bf38769\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef677ee10a44ccd982a06df5f57e308\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: $2,200 gross. That will increase by an additional $1,100 a year every year the employee remains. So it is not insignificant. The male median hourly earnings figure is $22 an hour. That is $3,250 gross after 1 year, and a maximum of $22,000. So it is not insignificant. Employees, as we said, have the opportunity to bargain for redundancy payments that they think are appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWe introduced the ReStart package in 2008, which provides for workers made redundant and focuses on helping them back into work. We are focused on getting people into work, not placing more burdens on employers. When the previous Government looked at the issue in the Public Advisory Group on Restructuring and Redundancy report, 14 of the 22 submitters supported the status quo. In other words, they did not want change. What were some of the downsides to statutory redundancy provisions noted by the public advisory group? They were, one, disincentives to hire more staff; two, reduced wages; three, more temporary and contract workers; and, four, additional stress on businesses that are struggling already, resulting in further job losses and actually putting business viability at risk. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022afc39a58abf344639e749ab139a3530d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afc39a58abf344639e749ab139a3530d\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on this very important, somewhat essential, Employment Relations (Statutory Minimum Redundancy Entitlements) Amendment Bill, and I begin by lamenting what was a shocking, despicable, miserable contribution from Dr Cam Calder. He began his speech by asking why Labour did not do anything about it. Well, I have got news for Dr Cam Calder, and it is that, first of all, Labour commissioned the very group, the Public Advisory Group on Restructuring and Redundancy, that investigated, reported, consulted on, and came up with the recommendations. They were not just any recommendations; they were consensus recommendations, which means that the employer representatives and the union representatives on that committee agreed with the recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to say that I know a bit about that public advisory committee\u2014and this may come as a shock to Dr Calder and, indeed, to some other members opposite\u2014because I was on it. I know the hard work that went into it. I know the discussions. I know the people, who are all decent people, and we came up with a consensus set of recommendations. So the second answer to the question that Dr Calder asked, which was \u201CWhat did Labour do about it?\u201D, is that Darien Fenton, one of the many hard-working Labour MPs in this Labour caucus and, indeed, in the previous one, put together a member\u2019s bill\u2014which actually looked very similar, on the face of it, to this one\u2014to introduce minimum redundancy entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u2019s speech and, indeed, all of the National members\u2019 speeches illustrate their attitude towards working people and working life. They hate workers. They do not like workers having good-quality rights. They do not like it. They see work and workers as a cost to a business, as something to minimise, to reduce, to deduct from, and to discriminate against. They see workers as a pest to a business. They do not meet the 21st century standard that good employers actually have towards workers. They come from the 19th century view about workers that they are pests and that they need to get them out of the way as much as they can, take away their rights, treat them like dirt, and give them no rights at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to say this: redundancy plays a very important role in the labour market. It is compensation for the loss of job, for the loss of office. It is about tiding people over while they are between employment, while they are looking for work. Why is that important in the labour market? Because the reality is that when a worker is tied up with an employer they face an opportunity cost. They are not out there in the labour market elsewhere, and the longer they spend with an employer the less active they are in the labour market, apart from the fact that they are working and providing value to the employer, helping that employer generate a profit, and being paid from that profit. But when they are pushed out of that employment at the employer\u2019s initiative for no other reason than that the employer decides that they no longer want them and can run the business without them, then it is entirely appropriate that the labour market provides some compensation for that worker. That is all it is about. There is nothing particularly radical about it. It is orthodox labour market economics. It has happened before. It should happen again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ELet us understand the history about redundancy in this country. Redundancy compensation was fought for by unionised workers back in the 1970s. It started with the M\u0101ngere Bridge, a project that National has spent years, if not decades, lamenting. But actually it has had a very important effect. It introduced the first redundancy rights. It led to a law change that allowed specific awards for redundancy compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOf course, the biggest beneficiaries of that ever since were not workers. Actually, it was those in middle management and upper management who have gone along to their boards of directors and senior managers and said: \u201COh, you can\u2019t do without me. If you want to get rid of me on a no-nonsense basis, you write me out a big, fat cheque and you pay me bucketloads of money.\u201D, which is what has been happening ever since. That is the background to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf it is good enough for the senior managers, and if it is good enough for directors and others, to walk away with big, fat cheques when they get pushed out of their jobs, then it is actually entirely appropriate that when hard-working, front-line workers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244b065f1a7e94ce4bd22f6691a1c4c04\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What about the ones that aren\u2019t hard-working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022484d2d65a1584b659131916f30da9684\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here is the National Party again. That is it. The prejudice had to come out\u2014the prejudice had to come out. He cannot resist. Those members hate workers. National members hate workers. Everything they do is about taking away rights and expressing their hatred for workers, and their opposition to this bill is just that. That is why we are supporting it. That is why we have good MPs like Sue Moroney and Darien Fenton who put up these ideas, and we will be voting for this great bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a269ff355a4e4137b13636746d0f9800\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a269ff355a4e4137b13636746d0f9800\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. It is important to rise and speak tonight. I want to acknowledge the previous speaker, Andrew Little, who has fallen into the continual trap of the Opposition: he spends a lot of time saying what National supposedly is talking about. National is not against the workers. National is not attacking the workers. We are not trying to keep the man down. This is not that Hegelian master and slave dynamic. That is always and only said\u2014only said\u2014by the Opposition about the National Party. We are a party committed to jobs, to growth, and to Kiwis who are prepared to be part of that growth agenda. So I am pleased to stand here and speak to the Employment Relations (Statutory Minimum Redundancy Entitlements) Amendment Bill, and pleased to stand in opposition to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI was standing in my office an hour or so ago, and I was trying to get my head around why this bill had been put up by Ms Moroney and others. Why was redundancy such a major issue for members of the Labour Party? Then it dawned on me. It dawned on me that they are worried about David Shearer. They are actually compassionate, empathetic people worried about the impending redundancy of David Shearer. They are wanting to make sure, to assuage their consciences, that when they put the knife in his back and push him out in the coming days or weeks they will be able to look after him\u2014they will be able to look after him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIs it Iain Lees-Galloway on the redundancy issue? We have to worry there. Is that the issue of the day? Is it Ms Moroney? Is she concerned about the redundancy? For her to step away from whatever shadow policy she is involved with it needs at least 4 weeks\u2019 support. We find very quickly, I think, the motive here. This is an attempt to assuage one\u2019s Labour guilt around redundancy for the impending issues around their leader that we hear. They have all of a sudden gone incredibly quiet. We wonder which of the members across the way have already put their ladders down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EOne of the key things that ultimately comes out of this is a mind-set. It is a mind-set. We could summarise it like this from the Labour Party. It is very simplistic\u2014very simplistic. Karl Marx would be pleased with it. It is the belief from the Labour Party that ultimately every employer is a crook. It is also a belief that every employee is an idiot. We know that neither of those two statements is true. We believe that employers and employees\u2014Kiwis\u2014can go around the bargaining table and have a conversation. We can stand on our own two feet, be we an employer or an employee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe party in Opposition\u2014and it is the reason it is in Opposition\u2014does not believe that. If you listen to those members\u2019 speeches in this House, time and time again they are always about control. They are always about control. No one bar the Labour Party has the knowledge, the insight, and the great belief\u2014no one other than the Labour Party\u2014to make the decisions! The National Party stands here with a belief that Kiwis can stand on their own two feet and negotiate their contracts. They can negotiate around their own redundancy payments if they so choose, as members, I am sure, on all sides of the House have done in their time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EIt is about choice. You see, the Labour Party falls back again. It does not want choice. And why does it not want choice? Because it wants to make the choice for everybody else. This is that hands-on politics. This is the hands-on politics we heard from David Shearer and the Labour Party. And I have said it before. They want their hands on your wallet and around your neck. This is all about control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAlso, it lacks economic understanding. You see, in a very basic way, if a company, a not-for-profit organisation, any organisation, or a small business is moving towards redundancy, it means things ain\u2019t good. Let us put it in very simple, colloquial language. It ain\u2019t good. It does not have the money for these sorts of dynamics. Why is it going under? I am not saying that it is the case in every situation, but things ain\u2019t good, to use a bit of Kiwi colloquial-speak for the Opposition. So this bill is crazy at a number of levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs Dr Calder pointed out earlier, Labour had 9 long years to fix this, but as I also noted as I began this speech, I think I understand the motive. There is a lot of talk about making a certain leader of the Labour Party redundant, and to assuage those members\u2019 guilt they are willing to try to push this bill through to make the ending of David Shearer a little smoother.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ed810917314df785e4ae7e17b2757f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ed810917314df785e4ae7e17b2757f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to move an extension of 5 more minutes for Simon O\u2019Connor, so that in the next 5 minutes he can make more sense than he made in the previous 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002247875c04243642a58da7b4ad33540291\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247875c04243642a58da7b4ad33540291\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not a point of order. That is a frivolous point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u002283b8c28401b846deae37a2f3032643db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b8c28401b846deae37a2f3032643db\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That speech was from the party of privilege. Was that not enlightening? From the party of privilege, people apparently choose to be made redundant, under the National Party\u2019s view. Apparently, there is a freedom of choice about your job being taken away from you. Well, I would like those members to share exactly how that works. I think that nothing shows more about how out of touch that Government is with the day-to-day realities than the sorry speeches we have heard from the National Party on this Employment Relations (Statutory Minimum Redundancy Entitlements) Amendment Bill tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI am really proud to bring this bill before the House, but I am not proud of the circumstances in which this bill becomes so relevant today. Since we started the first reading debate on this bill just a few weeks ago there have been hundreds more redundancies announced in this country\u2014and that is just in the weeks since we started the first reading debate. That is something that the Government needs to take responsibility for. Since this debate started, 500 jobs have gone at New Zealand Post, right throughout the country. In Hamilton, where I come from, 129 jobs have gone from that city alone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWhen I did my speech at the beginning of this process, I warned about the tsunami of redundancies. I warned about the second wave that was coming. That is the beginning of the second wave. When 129 pretty reasonably decent jobs, well-paying jobs like New Zealand Post jobs, come out of a community like Hamilton, those wages get sucked out of that economy as well. And when those good wages get sucked out of the economy, guess what happens next? More redundancies start happening because money is not getting spent any more at the companies and the local businesses where those people once spent their wages. So the next wave of redundancies is not the one that you will read about in the newspaper. The redundancies will be the one job here, the two jobs down the road, and the three jobs at the other company down the road as well. They are the ones that we will not hear about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe National Party has focused on this somehow being a personal choice. Those 129 workers at New Zealand Post in Hamilton and the 500 of them throughout the country have apparently got a personal choice about being made redundant. Well, here is the reality: they do not. They do not have a personal choice about being made redundant. Fortunately, they are members of a union and they will get redundancy pay, but those ones, twos, and threes\u2014the redundancies in those other small companies that I talked about that are coming round the corner\u2014are the ones where people have not had the personal choice to actually negotiate redundancy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E What is it that makes the National Party feel so comfortable about the thousands of people being made redundant in this country every month and the fact that 80 percent of them\u2014yes, 80 percent of them\u2014have no entitlement to any redundancy protection? Because that is the reality. That is the National Party\u2019s personal choice for us: the personal choice to actually have your job taken from underneath you\u2014not you, Mr Assistant Speaker, but thousands of New Zealand workers\u2014and have no rights and no protection at all. That is what the National Party has just told us it is completely relaxed about. Well, it is all right for the National Party to be relaxed about it, but those workers and their families are not relaxed about it, because they are facing no income and the prospect of no job. When those 129 jobs go in Hamilton, I can tell you, those people will be lining up with hundreds of others for minimum wage jobs at the local supermarket. That is the destiny that they have in place for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt is clear. It is clear with this debate which party is focused on the real issues\u2014the real issues that affect New Zealand today. Because here we are debating a very real issue, which was promoted by the Labour Party and voted against by the National Party. Can I, in closing, thank the Green Party, New Zealand First, the M\u0101ori Party, Mana, and Brendan Horan for having the decency to stand up for everyday New Zealanders in support of this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022172420707bbf4086a86762bcadba0fd4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Employment Relations (Statutory Minimum Redundancy Entitlements) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 12; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; Independent: Dunne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9d99b04461846ff86def6eff512e93a\u0022\u003EElectricity (Renewable Preference) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d02bb583a5c43639a5ae37c0ef1a66d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022c12e8eac2b564abcb48d265eb595ca4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c12e8eac2b564abcb48d265eb595ca4f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electricity (Renewable Preference) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Commerce Committee to consider the bill. First of all, I want to thank my former colleague and friend Charles Chauvel, whose name this bill was in originally. Apparently, I am completely incapable of having bills drawn from the ballot. In my entire time in Parliament I have never had one drawn, so I am reliant on my very kind colleagues to draw bills from the ballot in my portfolio areas and to then, very kindly, hand them over to me. That is what Charles Chauvel did, and I am happy to take this bill through its first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis bill creates a preference for renewable electricity generation through the reintroduction of a 10-year restriction on new baseload fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generation capacity, except where exemptions may be appropriate. I will be honest. I have very low expectations that this bill will progress beyond its first reading, but I sincerely hope that members will give it due consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis bill is an important first step to meeting two current Government targets: firstly, that 90 percent of electricity generation be from renewable sources by 2025, and, secondly, the National Government\u2019s target of a 50 percent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. I am very pleased that the National Government has kept the Labour Government\u2019s 90 percent renewable target, and I want to commend it for that. But both targets are meaningless without a plan or a strategy or any policy to get us there, and on current policy settings we will not achieve either target. The 90 percent renewable energy target should be easy for New Zealand. We are blessed with an abundance of renewable energy resources. I do hope that I do not hear claims from members who oppose this bill that we are doing OK because 2012 was a record year for renewable electricity generation. It was, but only because it rained a lot. That is the only reason\u2014our hydro lakes were at full capacity. I do not believe that hoping for wet weather is a plan or a strategy to get us towards a 90 percent target by 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the National Government\u2019s 50 percent target for greenhouse gas reductions by 2050, again, we have no plan. We have a collapsed carbon price, we have foresters deforesting and exiting the emissions trading scheme, we have no new plantings, and all the complementary measures introduced by the previous Labour Government have been removed except for the road-user charge exemption for electric vehicles. That is all that remains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBroader than that, on the international stage, New Zealand is the only country to have not tabled an unconditional, single-number target for greenhouse gas emission targets for the 2013-20 period. This is something the National Government needs to rectify urgently. It was due in October last year. We are the only country that has failed to deliver, and that has been noticed on the international stage. My point is that we need a plan, and this bill could be an admittedly small, but a very important, first step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to say that this bill recognises that possibly the most crucial first step towards supporting renewable energy and towards meeting these targets is to have an effective price on carbon. This is a point that has been driven home by the Wind Energy Association, which points out continually that an effective price on carbon is the best move that we can have for supporting renewable energy in New Zealand. The reason I say that my bill recognises that is that it has a 10-year restriction on this baseload fossil-fuelled thermal generation moratorium\u2014a 10-year restriction\u2014and that is in recognition of the fact that once we do have an effective price on carbon, this measure will no longer be needed. But until that effective price on carbon is there, the renewable energy sector is in a vulnerable position. The history of that is that we put that 10-year limit on when we first introduced the emissions trading scheme and when we recognised that it might take a number of years for the scheme to bed in, for all the sectors to come in, and for there to be a price on carbon that actually drives the behavioural change that all members of this House claim they support but very few put their votes behind. We are in exactly the same situation now, unfortunately, where the measures that were introduced under the emissions trading scheme, as well as the complementary measures, have all been wound back. We do not have any price on carbon. Currently, the price on carbon on the spot market is around 15c, so, again, this bill is very timely\u2014very timely. It would put in place a moratorium that would take us through to a time when we do have an effective price on carbon and when this measure is no longer needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the issue of the price on carbon, I want to read out a couple of quotes from when the National Government voted against this measure in 2008, when it repealed it. Then Minister of Energy and Resources Gerry Brownlee said: \u201CReducing carbon emissions in the electricity sector remains a goal, and renewable technology will be encouraged through the Emissions Trading Scheme.\u201D\u2014through the emissions trading scheme. Well, that is no longer the case. It is no long the case, at all. The second quote from Minister Brownlee, again in the first reading of the bill that repealed this measure in 2008, is: \u201CNational believes that investment decisions in the electricity sector should be made on the basis of sound economics, with environmental effects taken into account through a price on carbon,\u201D. So the main reason given for not supporting this measure back when the National Government repealed it was that it was going to have an effective price on carbon. Well, we do not have one. We have a collapsed carbon price\u201415c. So what is the National Government\u2019s response to that, given that this was the main reason it gave for opposing this moratorium back in 2008? I look forward to hearing that answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to address some of the concerns that are going to be raised about this bill. This bill does not threaten security of supply. Can I repeat that\u2014this bill does not in any way threaten security of supply. The bill, in fact, recognises the importance of security of supply, and, as such, it provides exemptions for use of non-renewable energy during a power crisis. It allows for the running of plants that combine non-renewable and renewable sources. It allows for the running of non-renewable plants that recycle heat, and thermal plants that temporarily replace the whole or part of another thermal plant, so that security of supply is not threatened. We could not have done more to guarantee security of supply. I suspect that we are going to hear the same old excuses, but there is actually no basis to that threat that I am anticipating will come from National members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOf course, this moratorium applies only to new baseload generation. It does not apply to peaking generation, which is what we need when we get those spikes at peak demand time. That is not affected at all by this piece of legislation. It is only new baseload generation that is affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIf I can come to another reason that was given at the time as to why the National Government did not support the thermal generation moratorium\u2014and I believe that this is actually a key reason, and back in 2008 I do not think that we were quite as cognisant of the National Government\u2019s intentions in this area as we are now\u2014that reason is that it would discourage oil and gas exploration. I want to quote again from the first reading with Gerry Brownlee where he said: \u201CThe fourth reason why the Government is repealing the ban is that it disincentivises oil and gas exploration in New Zealand. Already the ban, in the short time it has been in existence, is seeing some explorers and investors shy away from New Zealand.\u201D Well, I do not know whether that is true, but I suspect that that is really at the guts of what we are talking about here. Look, I understand that this National Government likes fossil fuel exploration. It goes giddy for it. I get it. That is fine. It is the National Government. That is what it does\u2014that is what it does. But my question to those members is why you would not do both. Why would you not support the renewable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df15fb32672243239baf56ddb8b3bd06\u0022\u003EHon Chris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: We are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f08499b26b14d6bb46178658a131599\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, you are not, Mr Tremain. Oh my dear! Why would you not support the renewable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc2ef4335b324f23944512a55ab5aed1\u0022\u003EHon Chris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: We have got the highest amount of renewable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af6cb9804cad469f891c7b63ca3bd0e9\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because it rained a lot, Mr Tremain. That is why we had a record year in 2012, because the weather Gods smiled on the National Government and it rained a lot in the hydro lakes. Dear Lord, is that the basis upon which the National Government is voting against this bill\u2014because in 2012 it rained a lot? That is so scary in its logic that it beggars belief. Even the current Minister of Energy and Resources\u2019 own officials have told him that on current policy settings we will not get to that 90 percent renewable target. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMy message to the Government is that this bill provides investment certainty for the renewable energy sector, especially when we have a collapsed carbon price. There is nothing else driving that behaviour change. It provides security that a big oil or gas find, particularly gas, is not going to change the current economics of electricity baseload generation, which actually are very, very favourable for renewables at the moment. But a big gas find and a National-led Government that will not rule out that that gas will be generated into electricity, baseload electricity generation\u2014and I would love to hear a National member rule that out\u2014provide enormous uncertainty for this sector. This piece of legislation takes that uncertainty away until we get an effective carbon price, which is ultimately what is really going to drive the kind of progress and renewables that we want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAgain, I say to the National Government that this is not about stopping oil and gas exploration. It is not about turning off fossil fuels. It is about asking why you would not provide the same level of support and enthusiasm for the renewable energy sector, which is creating a huge number of high-skilled jobs, as you are for the oil and gas sector. The oil and gas sector does get subsidies. It gets tax rebates. It gets assistance with seismic surveying and the costs around that. All the renewable energy sector is asking for is a fair go. This bill is a step towards that fair go, and I urge all members of the House to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00227a1a4bae4c0f480890726474f2b182d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a1a4bae4c0f480890726474f2b182d6\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E This does take me back, this bill\u2014thank you, Moana. Groundhog Day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae06866d4944ddbaf2f2cf657c95cf9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will use the member\u2019s full name or title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beede98727914495a1f537f58c3f1753\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Ms Mackey, this takes me back to December 2008. The very first speech that I gave in Parliament was a speech on the repeal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a4cd77895e24e358beb55a1d6ffc6ba\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve forgotten it already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223df5a172c47047d4b0ecf775f5a185e7\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: You have not forgotten it\u2014I cannot call you Chris, can I?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b38bddd0ebb241139bd9caf8c0bd2317\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a57682651a24307ba0ff91af11fd4da\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: So it is Groundhog Day. Here we are, trying to put into place a piece of proposed legislation that was repealed by this Government\u2014in fact, it was the very first piece of legislation that we repealed\u2014because we knew of the damage it was doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI do not understand why this legislation, the Electricity (Renewable Preference) Amendment Bill, is before us, because I know right now that in terms of renewable energy generation, there is something like 3,500 megawatts already consented. It is not as if you have to encourage the industry. What it sounds like to me is that you are creating a disincentive for thermal generation. You say \u201Cbaseload\u201D. I talked to my colleagues, and we are trying to think of who, at the moment, is creating thermal baseload generation. We know there is an increase in peaker generation happening. We know that just recently Nova Energy opened a plant in North Taranaki; I went and saw that opening. But I am just really struggling to find the relevancy of this proposed legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIs it propping up a failing carbon market? Is that what it is designed to do? Is it trying to create a disincentive for thermal generation, so renewables get a fair go? We know there has been a huge development of renewable energy and there is a huge number of projects already consented. We also know that we have, in terms of the nations of the world, the third-highest proportion of renewable energy generation. We are No. 3 in the world. So I do not know what you are trying to do, because we are already doing a lot. We are already doing a lot that is active in this market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIn fact, just last week your colleague down there Gareth Hughes, on your side of the House, made a comment at a symposium at Victoria University that there is too much tinkering around this space. This is what is happening: you are tinkering again. You are talking about this creating\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59acb5745e949aeae923f8e2556a2fb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am not tinkering with anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f5eed7f384a449e8efae1b4bd608eb7\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, yes, I am not referring to you, Mr Assistant Speaker. The member is talking about creating certainty out there for the renewable sector. This creates uncertainty for the energy sector. In fact, that is what the sector said about this piece of legislation when it first came in back in 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cbd8789e8e04914a14f7cab6833c8d8\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Name them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de9c9eeb38074323896c64f9c0f811f1\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: Todd Energy, for a start. That is what it said when you first put this proposed moratorium into place with your emissions trading scheme back in 2008. In fact, what it said back then was that this sort of thinking and tinkering actually will increase the price of electricity. I know that you are very concerned about that. Go back and read the statements. Go back and read the newspaper articles\u2014all of those things. If the member remembers my speech back in that particular point in time, you know that Contact Energy, in collusion with Genesis Energy, because of moratoriums like this, was going to import liquefied natural gas (LNG) and was going to set up an LNG plant in New Plymouth. All of that was going to bring in LNG to be used in the consumption of energy for Methanex and different companies, and also the generation of power. When you start putting in disincentives and when you start controlling by regulation that you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d88527b56444c78096a8a81b810991\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299bc95aa7ef14752a68aa150e528a592\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Assistant Speaker, I understand what you are saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711cabcba594461e8b0efe095576910f\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a new member; he\u2019s still learning!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022453b5e1d14524d25aefcc7e3b53c5ccf\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I would ask him to look at Speaker\u2019s ruling 27/5(1). The member may continue. You have brought me into the debate far too often tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022189c9b2f0feb48c29b119705696c4d6b\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I am sure you are enjoying the debate, Mr Assistant Speaker, but we will leave you out, if you like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E What I am saying is that the tinkering around policies, around whether it should be thermal or renewable, is actually an out-of-date argument. When the member thinks about what is happening in the United States with shale gas, and how that now has been utilised for thermal generation, it has reduced their carbon footprint in the States quite considerably because they have moved away from coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad7f257596654491bde7aa0cbf680859\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Are you saying that shale gas is better than geothermal for greenhouse gas emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220243af6afee44528a6bf8c6bfe13215b\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: What I am saying to the member is that we as a nation already have a very significant level of renewable geothermal and wind generation, and we are just unsure of what the member is trying to achieve with this legislation. What we have seen over the last number of years is that a huge number of renewable projects has been consented. As the market continues, those assets will be built, and as they are competitive, those assets will be put in place as the investors in those assets deem fit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWhat this is all about is manipulating the regulations around the source of energy for electricity generation, which I think is tinkering. It is Groundhog Day. It is not achieving anything that I think the member hopes to achieve. In a sense it is trying to\u2014I think in her own words\u2014wait until the carbon market becomes strong. So it is to support that. It is to support the continual building of renewables. They are already there, going. They are already there, waiting. I do not know what you are trying to achieve. I think that this piece of legislation is unnecessary in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223dda952a2f3949ec8f10ae37478830fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dda952a2f3949ec8f10ae37478830fd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The last speaker, Jonathan Young, said that the Electricity (Renewable Preference) Amendment Bill did not know what it was trying to achieve, would not make any difference, but would somehow inhibit the development of the electricity industry. There are some inconsistencies there. The world does face a challenge from climate change. Climate change is caused by greenhouse gas emissions, and the increasing concentrations of greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere are probably the largest environmental threat that we all face in the world collectively. Emissions come from four main sources: electricity production, transport, industrial uses, and, in New Zealand, agriculture. They are all hard to fix. But the easiest of them to fix in New Zealand is your emissions from electricity. If New Zealand, a country that is as rich in renewable resources as we are, cannot fix that part of the problem, there is very little hope that the world will. If there is very little hope that the world will, that is a pretty depressing outcome that we leave for our children and grandchildren. It does not have to be that way. Instead of having this sort of depressing vision as to whether we can get there, we on this side of the fence think we should take meaningful steps to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI was part of the Government that put this measure in the original legislation at the time carbon pricing was introduced. Why did we do that? Because we knew that it was very affordable for New Zealand to go down a renewables path rather than a fossil fuel electricity generation path, but we also were suspicious that a price on carbon did not give you the certainty that you will get there. That is why we put this in the original legislation, and we were right, because what has happened to the price of carbon since is that it has gone down below any expectation\u2014in part because of poor policy choices by this Government, but also in part because of what has happened overseas. The price on carbon is not an inhibition on the development of fossil fuel alternatives. It is not nearly as significant an inhibition as it was, or as it may well be again in the future, but is not now. What this bill does is try to get New Zealand to meet that target of 90 percent renewables by 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E It is true that New Zealand has made great progress. The trend was downwards. The trend was downwards for some decades, and in the worst quarter 57 percent of our generation came from renewables. Since then the trend has gone the other way. That was caused by a myriad of measures taken by the last Labour Government. Those included carbon pricing, a national policy statement under the Resource Management Act to make renewables easier to consent, transmission upgrades, a Government policy statement under the New Zealand Energy Strategy, and lots of other initiatives\u2014all of which combined to get the industry going in the right way, including the signal that was originally in the legislation in respect of future thermal generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand can get to 90 percent renewables by 2025, but there is a significant risk that if you have got gas\u2014sorry, not you, Mr Assistant Speaker. But if an industry participant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80dcd3a2a2f480884a87279a1d972d7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222519ce76760846b5b148692895968a45\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was accidental, Mr Assistant Speaker, but it was quite good. If an industry participant has gas resources and it has no other use for them or it is not connected to the international gas market, it may be tempted to price its gas at just below the cost of renewables, not in a way that would meaningfully reduce power prices but in a way that would close out future renewables developments. So that is still a risk in New Zealand\u2014that future thermal electricity will be priced just below the cost of renewables, foreclosing those renewable developments and bringing forward more gas-fired generation instead. That is what Moana Mackey\u2019s bill addresses, and it should be supported by this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI suspect it will not be supported by National, because, of course, we had Gerry Brownlee come in and, in an act of petulance, really, in my opinion, reverse biofuels, causing the bankruptcy of people who had made no mistake, and replacing it with a failed voucher scheme, which never worked. This was another of his measures, because he really does not believe that there is a serious problem of climate change. Sadly, I think this bill will be treated in the same way by the National Party, but that is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8d86708489d4392bf221a3903d14605\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8d86708489d4392bf221a3903d14605\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava and good evening. Look, it is an honour for me to speak on this, the Electricity (Renewable Preference) Amendment Bill. This bill demonstrates what is wrong with the Labour Party today\u2014it demonstrates what is wrong with the Labour Party today. I look across at Moana Mackey, a person I have a lot of respect for as an intelligent, articulate young woman inside the Labour Party. Grant Robertson decides to give poor Moana Mackey this bill to come into this House with and act like this is going to make a difference to New Zealanders. I am sorry, but this bill, which tries to re-enact something that the National Government has already repealed, is a waste of our time in this Parliament. It is a waste of our time deliberating on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI say to Moana Mackey that I know that she is on the backbenches doing the numbers for Mr Cunliffe. I know that Moana Mackey is doing a good job at undermining the current leadership of the Labour Party, but, Moana, have a bit of pride and do not bring these types of ridiculous bills to this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b088e0baf24e9486d1f6458f06094a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246154a80f7bb4a2588830e54a40fbded\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for us to debate. What National stands for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faafbea9afca47cf90c70f5f96d5cdd6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member must use another member\u2019s full name. Do not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264898497037e400f9f216b5b9d028e66\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: What this bill represents is a back-to-the-past approach to energy supply. First and foremost, Labour wants a single electricity buyer\u2014a single electricity buyer. It is going back to the days when there were blackouts. It is going back to the Labour regime between 1999 and 2008, where electricity prices increased by 72 percent over 9 years. It accuses the National Government of sitting on its hands, although 78 percent of energy is renewable, which is higher than any level\u2014any level\u2014that the Labour Party achieved in its 9 years. In the last 4\u00BD years of the National Government, we have seen price increases of around 16 percent\u201416 percent\u2014and yet in 9 years, twice as long, the prices went up 72 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E The key message here is please do not bring these types of foolish bills to this House. The ban on thermal energy was totally unnecessary. Labour knows, and Mr Bakshi will point out in his speech, that in terms of renewable energy, in terms of geothermal energy, the types of consents for Castle Hill, a wind farm, which will come online\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0d19fbf3e74c498606e54ba180b93f\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Can you cover all of that in 1 minute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9ba270766844e79ab724ec2e7b26b3\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: Mr\u2014sorry, I do not even know your name. What is your name, sir? He says: \u201CWhat about it?\u201D. Well, 78 percent renewable energy\u2014[Interruption] I am sorry, but this Government is bringing prices down. We are bringing renewable energy sources online and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d13c55b840ee452d8be2b0bc044fe35b\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d48269785e3344f0816dc2c2524ee31b\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are. Poor Moana! I really feel for Moana, who can come into this House and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa4de5b8284420e8fb2c9bb231f526c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222658663174cd40469bad28109287a261\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: Moana Mackey. Grant Robertson gives her a bill that is totally redundant and that will get voted down because it is a ridiculous piece of legislation. I have a lot of respect for you\u2014I have a lot of respect for you\u2014but this is ridiculous, I am sorry. The ban was enacted in 2008, but we have got to have trust in the emissions trading scheme that the Labour Government put in place and we have supported. That has led to lower electricity prices and security of supply. I am sorry, but we cannot vote for this bill, because it is Back to the Future stuff and it is totally unreliable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd43bfa2914d4043a156e15aa62fde2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd43bfa2914d4043a156e15aa62fde2a\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. I rise to support this Electricity (Renewable Preference) Amendment Bill, unlike the illogical ramblings we heard just then. What is this bill about? This bill is about cheaper electricity, this bill is about greener electricity, and this bill is about jobs and exports, and here, once again, National is voting against jobs, against the vision for our country, and against exports. That is not surprising, but it is disappointing, because cleaner and cheaper electricity, jobs, and exports should be things this whole House can agree with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill is about reducing carbon dioxide emission, for all of our kids\u2019 futures. This bill is about a simple, easy, costless step New Zealand can make towards the target that everyone in this House agrees with. I cannot for the life of me believe that National members are voting against Moana Mackey\u2019s bill. I know they have voted against it in the past, but this is a chance for them to say that they made a mistake. It is all right to make a mistake, if you look at the evidence, if you look at the statistics on the table. Moana Mackey\u2019s bill brings back that thermal ban that the Greens support, obviously. Actually, we would like to go stronger than the Labour Party, but it is light years away from National\u2019s energy vision, which is simply to drill it, mine it, frack it. That is the extent of its vision for the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESure, members opposite will talk about supporting renewables. They talk about it; they just do not walk the walk. You know, they have got a renewables target. They should support renewable energy. But when we look at the renewables we have in our electricity generation mix at the moment, we are the envy of the world. We are exporting expertise at the moment. We have got cheap hydro, wind, and geothermal energy, which we are benefiting from at the moment, yet in New Zealand our emissions from electricity have increased by 40 percent since 1990. The Government sits on its hands, paying lip service to this 90 percent by 2025 target, yet if you look in the Government\u2019s own data at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment reference report on New Zealand\u2019s energy outlook, we are on track for only 78 percent by 2025. We are failing in the Government\u2019s own data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Government talks about energy a lot, but all it talks about are oil, gas, and fracking. We heard the Prime Minister say that at the recent opening of the gas peaker in Taranaki. The Government talks about acting on climate change. What we see from this Government is it walking out of Kyoto II, weakening to almost an irrelevancy the emissions trading scheme, and even laying doubts on the science. It is not taking climate change seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill is doing what we should be doing. It is a first step. We are blessed with options. We have got more than 20 wind farms consented, including the Castle Hill one. We have got huge opportunity to save energy\u2014demand side energy efficiency. But, of course, there is a risk that we are not going to get to that target. We are not on track to get to that target, yet 100 percent renewables is possible, it is desirable, and it is affordable. As we have heard, there is a risk of gas taking out the reaching of that target. We know that gas is expensive. With the way the Government decides to price the electricity market, the long-run margin on pricing electricity, what we are seeing is all New Zealanders paying for expensive gas. Because it is expensive, we are seeing it used more than it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130710e1cae109b03e45b3838ed7c374882ecb000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e296e6f0aa2d41f3ab7bcbd98e4acd91\u0022\u003EWednesday, 10 July 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d15db3881404103a55c4a8c822848e4\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 11 July 2013)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce14e777e20a444886db924e67080371\u0022\u003EState Sector Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce14e777e20a444886db924e67080371\u0022\u003EPublic Finance Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce14e777e20a444886db924e67080371\u0022\u003ECrown Entities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227aa2eaab26f94324a8e4206f6eae7458\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000007\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00226e67244472f64c9d8754b0cd7dbe086e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e67244472f64c9d8754b0cd7dbe086e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E When we were last debating this legislation I made the point that the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill as introduced raised some serious concerns from the Labour Opposition. We opposed the first reading of the bill. What we were concerned about was how the bill as it was introduced would impact on employees. We are at a time of quite rapid change within the Public Service. That means that many people who had been loyal and devoted public servants have been at risk and have lost their jobs through no fault of their own, and the bill as introduced had redundancy provisions that would have risked seriously disadvantaging people placed in that position. We raised concern too about the differential in terms of how people were treated if they were on a collective contract as opposed to an individual contract, and we raised concerns about the Government\u2019s proposal for workforce policy orders, which would have had the impact of effectively being Orders in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI am pleased to report back to the House that as a result of the very good and very clear submissions made by stakeholders on this bill, and the good work done in the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014and I acknowledge the work done there by David Cunliffe\u2014the committee actually listened to the Labour objections, took those objections on board, and altered the bill significantly. So we have a situation now where employees have retained their rights to redundancy payments when they are displaced from their employment, other than when they are offered a job that is no less favourable than the one that they are currently in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe have a situation where, with the sunset provisions, those on collective contracts will have the same rights as those on individual contracts\u2014they will not be disadvantaged\u2014and we have a situation where the workforce policy statements, as they are now known, will allow existing legal and bargaining rights to be protected. I do welcome the flexibility of the select committee, and, in this case, of the Minister, in taking on board those points so that this legislation can receive wide support as it goes through the House. I only wish that that sort of flexibility and rationality was replicated on a lot of other bills that we have been considering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe principles set out in the legislation are fine, but my question is, given experience, whether the principles set out in the legislation are actually just words on paper and the practice will be quite different. If you set out in the legislation very good provisions about how the Public Service will operate in future, that is fine. We want a flexible, innovative, creative Public Service that is effective and efficient. The public servants themselves want that, we want that, and New Zealand wants that. We should acknowledge that we have a very good Public Service, one that is politically neutral, one that is effective and efficient and non-corrupt. But to maintain that you have to maintain the morale and you have to acknowledge the value that those public servants provide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIt is all very well for the purpose clause to talk about a State sector system that meets its obligations on the part of the employer to the employees. But we have seen in practice the exact opposite of that happening. Think back to the debacle of the reorganisation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, probably the most effective ministry that in 15 years as a Minister I have worked with. That ministry was gutted, people unilaterally had stripped from them their rights and their working conditions, and that sense of disillusionment resulted in a 19 percent attrition rate, the highest in the history of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade in the latest financial year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThink of the Defence Force, where a thousand people have left the Defence Force\u2014they have voted with their feet. Look at the way in which the civilianisation project was handled, where people who had worked for the Defence Force for 25 years got these form letters saying: \u201CWe have measured you as having low potential.\u201D\u2014in capital letters. That is an absolute and gross insult to the people in the Defence Force, and the cost we have paid is having the worst morale and the highest levels of attrition in the country. So let us put our principles into practice, because that has not happened in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other point that I would make is that this legislation talks about having the objective of clarifying the responsibilities of chief executives to their Ministers. I want to ask the question of the next Government speaker: what about the reciprocal responsibilities of the Minister to the chief executives? Why is it that Murray McCully can blame his chief executive, who cannot argue back, for the total botch-up in the reorganisation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade? That was ordered by the Government, and the chief executive was hung out to dry. What about the Ministry for Primary Industries, where the export of meat to China was jeopardised because the restructuring was, again, botched? And what do we have Nathan Guy doing? Blaming his officials. Once upon a time there was a principle of ministerial responsibility in the House. Let us get back to that. Let this Government take some responsibility. Let it put the principles of this bill into practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022 data-id=\u00222f777708bbc14694a5bb5aec229fe43e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f777708bbc14694a5bb5aec229fe43e\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS (ACT\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E What a sad and pathetic rant for so early in the morning from the ex-leader of the Labour Party Phil Goff. I remember that the late Bill Rowling, when he was turfed out of the leadership of the Labour Party, never carried on like that, did he, colleagues? He was a good man, a statesman\u2014not like we have heard from the member for Mt Roskill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EI rise to support the third readings of the State Sector Amendment Bill and supporting legislation. These bills were formerly titled the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill. These bills make progress towards a more innovative, efficient public sector that delivers better results for New Zealanders. That is crucial for improving the services provided by the Government. I want to pay credit to my bench mate, the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, for his work on these bills, and the work of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003ETo illustrate the need for these bills, I want to highlight just one of the changes made by this legislation, relating to the responsibilities of departmental chief executives. This National Party - ACT coalition Government talks about responsibilities of chief executives quite a lot in this bill. In particular, the bill will make explicit the stewardship responsibilities of chief executives on behalf of the Government representing the people of New Zealand. In ordinary use, a steward is someone who is responsible for managing property on behalf of someone else. In a State sector context, this means on behalf of the taxpayers and the citizens of New Zealand. Although chief executives have for a long time been responsible for managing the organisational health and capability of their departments, this bill makes it clear that this requires proactive planning and management of the medium and long term interest. This is to ensure departmental maintenance and the ability to effectively serve successive Governments. So this is intergenerational legislation in the best interests of value for money on behalf of the taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EAs Minister for Regulatory Reform, I am pleased to see that the bill also extends the duty of stewardship to legislation that departments administer. Although Ministers hold the key decision rights over legislation and legislative change, they are not well placed to proactively monitor and manage the performance of legislation over time and to determine whether it remains fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party and the people of Epsom believe that for far too long Acts and regulations have been a result of undue haste, poor-quality processes, and inadequate scrutiny. Our statute book gets bigger and bigger every year. Hard-pressed taxpayers who produce the wealth of New Zealand face a thicket of rules. Businesses tell the Government, and told the previous one, that reducing the regulatory burden is what they want. The small businesses that I represent on Broadway, Newmarket, and around the Epsom electorate have said that for far too long they have had the Government on their backs and in their pockets too deeply. Well, I have got good news for hard-pressed taxpayers and New Zealand businesses. These bills take a small step to improving the regulatory burden on New Zealanders. They create the obligation for ongoing stewardship of existing legislation and regulatory regime. Regulation should be an asset to New Zealand, providing benefits that outweigh the costs to the users and the burdens that arise, but unless a department is actively and systemically monitoring the performance of the regulatory regimes it administers, then it will not know whether they are performing as assets or whether they have become liabilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EI agree with\u2014and I respectfully disagree with his views on ACT\u2019s Regulatory Reform Bill, and that is an argument for another day\u2014the late George Tanner QC, a former law commissioner and Chief Parliamentary Counsel. He said: \u201CThe lack of any systematic process for post-enactment scrutiny means that the routine maintenance of some very major pieces of legislation rarely happens.\u201D\u2014the routine maintenance of any legislation regularly does not happen. So we paint our houses and service our cars, but we do not look after the laws that affect people\u2019s lives\u2014more important\u2014and this legislation addresses some of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EThe explicit stewardship role in these bills in relation to legislation is an important first step towards ensuring the scrutiny and maintenance takes place. Indeed, the Government has already moved to outline its expectations for departments on their stewardship responsibilities for regulation. This is not exciting stuff. It does not get the House in raptures, but it is important for the end-users, who are the taxpayers who fund all the activities of this Government. The Government expects that departments\u2014that is, Government departments\u2014will be actively monitoring the regimes they administer to ensure they are performing as expected. Where this is not the case departments should be advising the Government where changes could be made to improve regulatory reform and regulatory performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003ERegulatory stewardship is about ensuring that the Government departments do not have a \u201Cset and forget\u201D mind-set when it comes to regulation. Rather, departments\u2014that is, Government departments\u2014must be actively managing the regimes they are responsible for. The ACT Party would say that departments need to get better with the pruning and thinning of their regulatory forests. Removing the deadwood is good and necessary. When these bills are passed the Government will be monitoring departments\u2019 progress on meeting its regulatory stewardship expectations, and as Minister for Regulatory Reform, I will have oversight for that and will be watching it very closely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EStrong regulatory stewardship will ensure that New Zealand\u2019s regulatory regimes are best placed to support growth in the economy. That is investment and growth in jobs, and we will hear a lot more about that later today. Strong stewardship is crucial to improving the performance of the State sector. So our aim should be clear in law, and it starts here today, this morning, in this Parliament\u2014clearly understood, frequently checked for fitness for purpose, and occasionally pruned. These bills are small, but meaningful, steps towards our objectives, and this Government, this coalition National Party - ACT Government, says that taxpayers know all and that it is the taxpayers we are responsible to. We are servants of the taxpayers. We must make sure that any laws passed in this Parliament represent their best interests and value for money for them. That is why, of course, as Minister for Regulatory Reform, I support these bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022490f1d88246746d7b71d2c0f3e2398d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022490f1d88246746d7b71d2c0f3e2398d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge the Minister who has just resumed his seat and acknowledge his role as the Minister for Regulatory Reform. His attitude to regulation is, of course, akin to the person with a chainsaw who cannot see the wood for the trees and chops down both. Our view of regulation is that it is a bit like a hedge. It needs to be kept pruned, but it plays an important role in setting boundaries for conduct, for the benefit of the whole community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELabour supports this legislation arising from the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill, and in the third reading it is an important time for us to sum up the reasons why we do. It is worth recalling that this is an unusual process, because at the first reading of the bill, Labour quite strongly opposed it. We did so for good reasons, and those reasons were echoed in submissions, notably those of the Public Service Association\u2014and I acknowledge the presence in the gallery of its secretary, Brenda Pilott\u2014and of the Council of Trade Unions. The strength of submissions from both was notable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E This is legislation where the Government and the Opposition have entered into good-faith negotiations and made major changes to the text, leading to the recognised improvement of the final product. It is an example where Parliament is doing its job at both the select committee and House levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI am going to briefly summarise some of the key issues that were amended in the Finance and Expenditure Committee. But before I do so let me recall first the overall objectives of the legislation, upon which there is now near consensus in the House. It comes down to what kind of State we want to have. Do we want to have a State that has shrunk to the point where it cannot effectively serve its citizens? No, we do not. Do we want to have a State that is intrusive and where civil liberties, protections, and civil rights are done away with, as in the thread of bills currently before this House? No, we do not. Do we want a monolithic State where bureaucratic action by individual agencies fails to deliver teamwork, flexibility, and cost-effectiveness? No, we do not. We want a State that is able to operate leanly but not meanly, a State that is effective, and a State that fulfils New Zealanders\u2019 aspirations for their communities. To do that we need Government agencies to be able to cooperate together, and they need to be able to work in partnership with communities and thus to delegate functions and occasionally powers, where appropriate, and with appropriate accountability. This legislation sets the legislative framework that allows that balance to be sought, and it has been much debated, much argued, and much amended so that both sides of Parliament have been able to contribute to the outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere were a number of provisions, particularly in respect of the State Sector Act component of the legislation, that were abhorrent at first reading. Redundancy provisions have been improved so that State sector employees retain their redundancy entitlements unless accepting a position that is \u201Cno less favourable\u201D than the one they currently have\u2014no less favourable. The protection of State servants\u2019 rights upon redundancy situations has been a bottom line for the Opposition, and we have benefited greatly from the work of submissions in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ETransition arrangements have been improved so that collective agreements and individual agreements are sunsetted equally 3 years after the legislation takes effect. We have removed the possibility that individual contracts could outlive hard-fought, well-negotiated collective agreements. The idea that Government Workforce Policy Orders could trammel the good-faith bargaining rights of State servants was abhorrent. I am pleased to report to the House that the select committee has rewritten those provisions so that the orders now specifically provide for the maintenance of all existing legal and good-faith bargaining rights by employees. The orders no longer exist; they are now statements that are not binding in relation to employment matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EConflict of interest provisions, enhanced governance for delegated powers, and strengthened accountability requirements in State sector financial reporting have all also been amended. Labour still has some significant concerns about aspects of the legislation, but we believe that the amendments secured in the select committee with the support of unions have brokered significant enough change to mean that Labour can now, and will now, support the passage of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI would like to take the opportunity to speak in a little more detail about some of the substantive provisions of the legislation, turning first to the State Sector Amendment Bill and the amendments to the State Sector Act. The bill strengthens the role of the State Services Commission in leading the State Service, and to ensure that agencies work collaboratively as a system. The amendments broaden the commissioner\u2019s functions to include the ability to transfer chief executives within the Public Service as part of building a collaborative culture. They extend the responsibilities of chief executives to their Ministers and how they delegate statutory functions and powers between agencies, subject to safeguards, which have been strengthened. They create new organisational arrangements called a departmental agency as an option for providing public services, in order to provide focused, specific, and accountable services within a broader department. I note in passing that that is in some ways opposite to the trend that we have seen with the formation of agencies like the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, which has collectivised so many functions into one disparate group that we have grave fears for its effectiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E The Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2) contains amendments to the Public Finance Act. It establishes a new type of appropriation called a multi-category appropriation, which is an important innovation. It means that when cooperation is mandated between several Government agencies comprising several different votes of expenditure, that financing can be collectivised into a single pool, thus hard-wiring the cooperation between those agencies for the project or programme. It is a good idea in principle, but in order to be proper and effective it is essential that Parliament is able to trace the money going into and out of multi-category appropriations, as part of a broader set of accountabilities, to ensure that all funding can be appropriately traced. I am happy to report to the House that work is ongoing in the Finance and Expenditure Committee to ensure that those accountabilities are detailed and transparent right down to the sub-output level, and we are working with officials to ensure that improvements are made to the structure of Crown accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAmendments to the Crown Entities Act 2004 in the Crown Entities Amendment Bill, amongst other things, require the boards of statutory entities to ensure that they collaborate where practical, and broaden the grounds for the Minister of Finance and the Minister of State Services to issue whole-of-Government directions, which can be issued to large or small groups of entities. The irony is that at a time when Mighty River Power\u2014or half of it\u2014has been flogged off, the Government is taking large parts of the State sector out of the provisions of the State-Owned Enterprises Act, which provides very similar powers of direction to those that we are now introducing in this bill. Would somebody please establish what the Government really wants? It seems that it wants cash, even when it overrides principle. This is a bill that does contain principle and so we support it. We absolutely abhor the dilution of the Crown\u2019s asset portfolio and the loss of strategic control over New Zealand\u2019s energy system, and that is why we are going to be introducing, soon after taking power next year, NZ Power, a system whereby consumer interests are protected and power companies are once again brought within the control of the community as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe retain a number of reservations about the legislation, and in closing let me just note that we have concerns, which we will be monitoring closely, around redundancy provisions and around payments and bargaining. We are also concerned about aspects of the implementation of Government Workforce Policy Statements to ensure that they do not in practice trammel the rights that are being protected in principle. We are going to be monitoring closely any delegation by chief executives of their powers, to ensure that accountabilities to Parliament and to the public are not diluted. And we are going to be working very closely with officials to make sure that the accountability arrangements in financial reporting are tight and transparent, so that the public can get the information it deserves and is entitled to in order to ensure the proper functioning of government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn process terms, let me express a degree of concern about the extensive Supplementary Order Papers to the legislation, which we feel should have been introduced earlier. This concern is not sufficient to cause us to vote against the legislation. It does have Labour\u2019s support. We look forward to working to modernise and improve the functions of the State sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u002245cb016a6ec04ecbb7ab8a92c4b66157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245cb016a6ec04ecbb7ab8a92c4b66157\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call for the Greens on the bills that were formerly part of the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill. When we vote on this legislation today we will be voting on three bills: the State Sector Amendment Bill, the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Crown Entities Amendment Bill. The Greens will be opposing the State Sector Amendment Bill. However, we will be voting in support of the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Crown Entities Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWe maintain that the changes being made to the State Sector Act erode the current conditions of State sector workers. In my previous speeches on this bill I have acknowledged that the Labour Party has made substantial changes to the original bill that are improvements on what was on offer before. Even so, under the State Sector Amendment Bill workers will not get the same access to redundancy as they had before, because the provisions are more restrictive. More worrying is that Public Service workers will also lose their rights around transferring to a new job when the functions of their jobs and duties have shifted to another department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E Given that there has been massive restructuring in the Public Service, mergers of departments, commissions like the Charities Commission suddenly becoming departments, and the loss of over 5,000 jobs in the State sector over the last 4 years, taking away the possibility for staff to have some discussion and an opportunity to transfer when their jobs are transferred as of right is a retrograde step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe public sector workforce is facing ever-increasing workloads as the Government puts the squeeze on staffing levels, but this has its costs. Yesterday in the Government Administration Committee we heard from the Chief Ombudsman, Dame Beverley Wakem, that the Office of the Ombudsman has had an increase in demand for advice and guidance from State sector agencies. When I asked why, she explained that there had been a churn of people in the Public Service, a huge turnover of staff, and, consequently, a loss of institutional knowledge and a loss of experience. She explained that even though they were not strictly charged with the work, it was a better use of resources for the Office of the Ombudsman to offer advice and training about the Official Information Act to try to reduce the number of complaints and requests coming through the Office of the Ombudsman. And there has been a sharp increase in complaints\u2014a 30 percent increase over the last year, and more Official Information Act requests than ever before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003ESome of this can be credited to the fact that the Public Service is finding it hard to attract and keep skilled and knowledgable workers, especially since the private sector can offer better pay and conditions. In this type of environment one would think that enabling employees to transfer if their jobs shift to another department would make sense. I remind the House that this ability to transfer in this bill applies to chief executives but not to other staff. This is hardly fair\u2014or even consistent\u2014and it is the reason why we will not be supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EFor the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2), we support the intent of the bill. We do believe that in the Public Service there should be ways for departments to work across appropriations and votes so that there is access to good public services. We do support the ability for there to be joined-up thinking and a joined-up Public Service, and we support the provisions in this bill that will contribute to that. We do support efforts that promote innovation in the Public Service and the efficient use of public resources. We recognise that this is what has been the driver for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003ECertainly, for those who contract with multiple departments to provide services, like some in the not-for-profit sector, there have been ongoing concerns for years and years about the duplication and costliness of multiple reporting and monitoring systems when there is more than one Government department involved in their provision of services. Having said that, we do acknowledge that the Public Service is not moribund, and it can already be innovative in its approach to the provision of services. I think I have previously mentioned the gateway programmes for youth at risk where their educational, health, social, and welfare needs are attended to across departments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThere are other examples. Last week I heard a talk by Judge Tony Fitzgerald from Auckland\u2019s New Beginnings Court. I was one of two MPs\u2014the other was Jacinda Ardern from Labour\u2014who slept outside for the night to raise money for Lifewise, an organisation that works to end homelessness in Auckland. There were over 80 participants sleeping rough for the night. We heard about this effective and innovative system within the justice system that screens out people with low-level and persistent offending\u2014theft and nuisance-type stuff\u2014because if a person is homeless, it is likely that they will be conducting petty crimes to get by. So they are screened and they are assessed by the New Beginnings Court, and then they work with the judge and a host of other agencies to address their underlying behaviour, mental health, or addiction issues, and their housing problems, as well. They report back regularly to the New Beginnings Court, until they graduate\u2014with due ceremony, I might add. The results are very, very heartening. They report a remarkably low level of reoffending within 6 months after graduation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe funding for this initiative comes from a range of Government departments, and the provisions in the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2) will make it easier for these types of initiatives to access funding. That is desperately needed for the New Beginnings Court, because although it has been in operation for 2 years, ongoing funding is by no means secure, and maybe it is even less secure given the reduction in funding that is happening in the justice sector at the moment. So although we agree with these intentions, we will be closely monitoring how the multi-category appropriations in votes remain traceable, and we share that concern with the Labour Party, as outlined by Mr Cunliffe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWe will also be supporting the Crown Entities Amendment Bill. We do have some reservations about the shifting of statements of intent to 3-yearly, or more frequently, if required by the Minister. We note the changes in definitions of subsidiaries that will cover partially sold-off State-owned assets. However, on balance, we support this bill. The State services in New Zealand deserve more than mere tinkering. We echo Sir Geoffrey Palmer\u2019s comments that the legislation needs to be examined in closer detail\u2014he suggests through a royal commission. In the meantime the Greens will oppose any bill that leaves public servants worse off. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022 data-id=\u0022019a721214054320a6a76097de66d440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022019a721214054320a6a76097de66d440\u0022\u003EPAUL FOSTER-BELL (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the third reading of the legislation arising from the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill\u2014the State Sector Amendment Bill, the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Crown Entities Amendment Bill. I would like to start by congratulating the Minister of State Services, the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, who introduced the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EI want to respond to some comments made by an earlier speaker. I have to agree, actually, with some of the things that Mr Goff said about New Zealand having a very good Public Service. In fact, our Public Service, I would argue, is the envy of the world. It certainly would be the envy of those Middle Eastern countries that I have spent some time in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate the Opposition on changing its position on this legislation, to one of support for it, but I do want to reject some of Mr Goff\u2019s characterisations, particularly of the foreign affairs ministry. Mr Goff was a good Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade for New Zealand, but we have to remember that that was 8 years ago. Eight weeks ago I was serving in that ministry, and I have to say that public servants are working very, very hard in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. They are delivering well on the Government\u2019s priorities. We have seen, just this week, free-trade agreement negotiations with Chinese-Taipei concluded. Trade is up, with the Gulf States. The Government is working on opening a new mission in Africa to support our UN Security Council bid, and every week, every month, we are making progress in that campaign to win the seat that New Zealand deserves to hold on the UN Security Council. I would utterly reject the characterisation of a demoralised ministry that is not producing results, because that is not correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EThese proposed changes to the State Sector Act strengthen the State Services Commissioner\u2019s role in leading the State sector. They also extend chief executives\u2019 responsibilities to considering the collective interests of the entire Government and longer-term sustainability, rather than focusing on single Government departments and agencies. This is a very positive measure as it will help, I think, reduce the degree of silo-isation that currently exists in the State sector, and it will ensure that the State Sector Act is modern and generally fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EI also want to reject a suggestion made by the previous Green speaker, Denise Roche, that I think is utterly wrong, and that is claiming that provisions for public servants are being eroded. A key provision of the State Sector Amendment Bill is ensuring that in cases of redundancy where the public servant moves on the next working day to a job that is comparable in its duties and responsibilities, public servants do not receive redundancy. This is not actually a reduction in the terms and conditions of that public servant, because they will transition into that new role and carry on with those terms and conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EI have absolutely no hesitation in commending this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b22d53f733b84281a9995420573e663b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b22d53f733b84281a9995420573e663b\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on this split legislation, the State Sector Amendment Bill, which we are opposing; the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2), which we are supporting; and the Crown Entities Amendment Bill, which we are also supporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EI will speak mainly on the State Sector Amendment Bill, which New Zealand First is opposing. This very large, complex, omnibus bill purports to be about providing the legislative basis for Better Public Services and strengthening the legislative framework. Yes, there are lots and lots of fine words and empty phrases of more collaboration among Government departments, sharing functions and services, sharing the purchasing of goods and services, logistics, more efficient and effective systems, and greater financial and reporting flexibility. And on and on goes the rhetoric. These are the same old buzz words\u2014\u201Cefficiency\u201D, \u201Csimplify\u201D, \u201Ccollaborate\u201D, \u201Clogistics\u201D, \u201Cflexibility\u201D, \u201Cstreamline\u201D, and \u201Cimproved governance\u201D\u2014that we hear time and time again, but actually where the rubber hits the road it really is not happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does not acknowledge honestly is that the public services in this country will continue to shrink. The fabric of our public sector will continue to fray. Is it not interesting that, at a time when this Government wants to decimate the Public Service, on the other hand in Christchurch a mainstay of the rebuild of the central business district is based on moving public servants into the centre of Christchurch and rebuilding large buildings there, to be taken up by Government departments. This Government says that the future of the Christchurch central business district is very much anchored on public servants and public services being based in the central business district. Yet here in Wellington, where we have a Prime Minister who says that the capital of this country is a dying city, the Government is all about decimating the Public Service and reducing it to a shadow of its former great self. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis same thinking, or should I say lack of thinking, led to the likes of the Pike River coalmine disaster, with the reduction in the number of mines inspectors. It led to the Rena ship disaster, where the work simply was not being done to ensure that the legislation was through to make sure that New Zealand was fully covered in a situation like that. It led to a situation where an emergency vessel that was suggested never came to be, and because that was not carried out we did not have the resources here, and the nearest resource to react to such a situation was in Singapore. It led to the situation of the leaky homes, where again the Government took its eye off the ball and for many, many years allowed this country to get into a situation of a decade of substandard building of homes, schools, hospitals, and the like. Now this National Government, having changed the rules back in the 1990s and having allowed leaky buildings to be built, is having to spend the best part of $30 billion of New Zealanders\u2019 money to fix up the problems that were created back in the 1990s under a National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt led also to biosecurity breaches like the Psa infestation of kiwifruit, where again the Government dropped the ball, and because there was insufficient oversight, that occurred. It led to border control by our customs officers and immigration officers seeing some serious breaches. This is continually under threat, and if the Public Service continues to be reduced, our border security and our customs and immigration services will be severely curtailed. We have a situation now, under this Government, that visa-free access is being allowed for questionable people coming in on China Southern Airlines to fly in, jump in the first available limo, go straight to Skycity\u2014which is part of the rest of its sleazy deals\u2014and be there for a number of days, virtually without any scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAgain, you would wonder whether this country is really being governed and really being taken care of. Is there a Government structure? Does the Government really want to ensure that we do have civil servants and a Public Service that can actually ensure the security and the well-being of this sovereign country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThese issues are not going to be resolved by the State Sector Amendment Bill. The short-term, ideologically based thinking that damaged New Zealand is not countered by this bill. This bill is not the solution for anything; rather, it entrenches current problems. This bill will not stop the erosion and undermining of the public sector\u2014a public sector that New Zealand has always been proud of; a public sector that has helped build the fabric and the spine of this country; a public sector that was responsible for creating our dams, our energy companies, our State-owned enterprises; a public sector that helped build the very infrastructure that keeps this country ticking over. I am talking about the roading, the railways, the airlines, the military, the defence forces, and the Civil Service that keeps the basis and the integrity of this country ticking over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIf it was all left to private enterprises\u2014if it was all left to the Government\u2019s mates to run, as this National Government would like to see\u2014we would indeed be in a very sad state in this country. This country has always had a very strong, sound Public Service sector. We have been a welfare State for the best part of the last century. We have been revered around the world for what our State services have provided to a small country, which, when I was young, was only 2 million people but is now 4.5 million people, during which time, for such a small population for a relatively small country, we were able to punch heavily above our weight because we did have the State structure to support that for a very small population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill will not stop that erosion. Where is the evidence that this bill will bring more effective public services? Where is the evidence that this bill will lead to better-quality public services and innovative ideas in the Public Service? Why is it necessary to strengthen the State Services Commissioner\u2019s role in leading the State Services Commission? Why do we need a new organisational arrangement, called departmental agencies? Where is the justification for this increasing complexity? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill creates an illusion of progress and improvement, but the evidence to support it is sadly missing. There is no clear and compelling case that this bill takes us to better and more cost-effective public services. No, we do not want a bloated Public Service and we do not want a bloated public sector, but we do not want a hollowed-out one either, and that is what this National Government would want to see\u2014a hollowed-out public sector that can no longer deliver the requirements to New Zealand. New Zealand First will not be supporting the State Sector Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002262d6324e0fd24bc681f82dafc3a3dd40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262d6324e0fd24bc681f82dafc3a3dd40\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the legislation arising from the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill. What a dour, sorry diatribe from Mr Williams in New Zealand First. How sad it is that they are not supporting this very enlightened legislation, because, after all, it is 100 years of an excellent Public Service in New Zealand that we are celebrating. Indeed, a country can be judged on the integrity, efficiency, and effectiveness of its Public Service, and here the National Government, in true leadership form, is once again ensuring that we have a State sector that is modern, flexible, and generally fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI was delighted to see in the amendments to the Crown Entities Act 2004 that collaboration\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de12d33f8e5040caa2a5840795c26138\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Four hours to catch a guy from \u014Cp\u014Dtiki\u2014how do you explain that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e581321168f41d6819c4eda80395480\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what he is talking about. It seems utterly irrelevant, like New Zealand First\u2019s contribution to this debate. The last thing that I wanted to mention was the collaboration between the various public entities. Indeed, that is vital, as we see the various whole-of-Government approaches to matters such as the White Paper for Vulnerable Children. This is excellent legislation and I indeed support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220df42697154a4de992b4110ac7bd87e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220df42697154a4de992b4110ac7bd87e6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As David Cunliffe has already indicated to the House, the Labour Party is supporting these three bills arising from the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b05d8f85bd84bb98ef1d2d56bb50a82\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202768e05ac0d43aa8b39c4e1e71e725b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Because we think that it is important, in respect of cornerstone legislation that governs the State sector, and desirable that at least the two major parties can reach agreement. It is largely housekeeping legislation, and it is important that we have stability in our State sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIndeed, I thought it was an appropriate time to have a bit of a reflection on history. One of the Acts that this legislation amends is a 1988 Act that was passed by the Lange Government under the ministerial direction of the Hon Stan Rodger. He lost his membership in the Public Service Association (PSA) for a while thereafter, so it was not all roses for him. But it is somewhat interesting to reflect on the fact that only 30 years ago we had far less sophisticated public finances and a far less sophisticated State sector than we now have. Indeed, it was not until that Government reformed the reporting of accounting information from Government departments that we moved to true accrual accounting across the Government. Until then there was dishonesty in the Government accounts of the day, which could report things on a cash basis and shuffle things from year to year. That was one of the ways in which the Muldoon Government was able to hide the fact that New Zealand\u2019s Government finances were in such a parlous state that Government debt was heading up towards 80 percent of GDP. An incredible one dollar in five of tax that was being collected was being spent on interest. It got close to one dollar in four before subsequent Governments, be they National-led or Labour-led, became fiscally responsible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIndeed, I think it is fair to say that since that time\u2014the 1980s\u2014and the reforms that were around State sector performance and public finance reporting and management, we have not had a fiscally irresponsible Government. We have not\u2014it is true. The then Labour Government got the finances under control. The following National Government reduced Government debt. The following Labour Government, led by Helen Clark with the Hon Michael Cullen\u2014Sir Michael Cullen now\u2014reduced gross Government debt from 38 percent of GDP to 18 percent of GDP, and reduced net Government debt to zero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI am going to dwell on that point a little bit because it is relevant to the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2). We hear time and again the diatribe from members on the other side of the House, asserting that they inherited a decade of deficits and that the prior Government was fiscally irresponsible. It is not true. Indeed, the Budget surpluses that were run by the last Labour Government in one year was 6 percent of GDP, and in another couple of years were 5 percent of GDP or thereabouts. We ran nine surpluses in a row, and that enabled us to reduce debt in the way that I have previously described. Every one of those Budget surpluses was opposed by the National Party, whether it was John Key as its finance spokesperson, Don Brash in charge, John Key in charge, or Bill English in charge. Every one of them was opposed to those surpluses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI remember sitting in this House when the Opposition National Party members, as they were then, were shouting out that the Government was overtaxing, and that it should have been refunding those taxes and having smaller surpluses. And, of course, if New Zealand had made that mistake, if in the time of plenty we had not run surpluses and reduced Government debt, the circumstance of New Zealand in the last 5 years since the recession and the global financial crisis would have been so much more difficult to cope with. The Government\u2014and it is now a National Government\u2014would have had to cope with not just declining revenues but high levels of Government debt relative to where it is. As a consequence, it would have had far more difficult decisions as to whether it needed to be more austere in its Government spending than it has had to be in order to get Government debt under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs it is, New Zealand has been able to run one of the least austere responses in the Western World to the global financial crisis. As a consequence, we have not forced our economy into the deflationary spiral that has been experienced in so many other countries around the world. [Interruption] That is quite right. A major part of that has been the fact that the last Labour Government prudently managed the Government\u2019s finances in a way that reduced Government debt, despite the opposition of the then National Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOn that front, it is interesting that the Public Finance Amendment Bill (No 2)\u2014these things are important, but leadership is more important. We again hear the Government accusing the previous Labour Government of financial mismanagement. This week the Minister of Finance had the audacity to allege in respect of mistakes in Budget reporting, now alleged to have been made by National around the funding of the Solid Energy bailout, that National was cleaning up the mess made by Labour. On questioning yesterday in the House, he was forced to admit that at the time National took over, that company had $15 million of debt or thereabouts\u2014in the low tens of millions of dollars of debt\u2014and by the time it was in the crap 3 or 4 years later it had close to $300 million of debt because of the ridiculous expansion plans into coal and lignite and other foolish measures that were promoted by the Government members, including the Hon Gerry Brownlee, at the same time that they told the State-owned enterprise to take on more debt and pay higher dividends. In the end, of course, it all turned to custard for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to turn to a couple of particular measures in the legislation that have been changed in its course. I am talking now in respect of the State Sector Amendment Bill. As I understand it, all parties agree across the House that where an employee in the State sector stops a job one day and gets an identical job the next day close to the same place and on the same pay and conditions, then they should not be able to pick up redundancy from the old job and move into the new job because they have not, effectively, suffered a detriment that would justify that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis legislation, when it came to the first reading in the House, went a lot further than that. It effectively meant that people could have faced the risk that even though they had redundancy and other provisions in their employment agreement or employment contract, whether it was a collective or an individual agreement, those provisions would not kick in, despite the fact that they would be forced to move to a job that they did not want, that could have been distant physically, and that could have been quite different from the job that they had previously had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe in the Labour Party thought that was wrong. We agreed with the PSA that that was just unfair. It was not the way in which a private sector employee would be dealt with in respect of similar provisions in their contracts if they were moving from one job to another, and we did not think it should apply in the State sector either. So we advocated hard, as did lots of other people behind the scenes, and the Government moved on that and now we have got a provision in that respect that we can live with. That is one of the reasons why we are able to now support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to say something about the directives that could originally have been given under the legislation as it came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. They were said to be orders; they sounded like statutory regulations, even though the jurisdiction of the Regulations Review Committee was ousted. The wording of the provision of the legislation was so broad that in our opinion the Government could have, effectively, imposed a wage freeze across the public sector through a piece of subsidiary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESome of us are old enough to remember that it was a prior National Government that did that under Muldoon, imposing a wage and price freeze on New Zealand that was unfair, did not work, and made worse the problems that there were then in the economy. So we again fought that and said that we would not support that. That has been changed. The wording has been changed. The breadth of the directives has been changed to make it clear that they cannot ride across good-faith negotiations, and, therefore, you cannot have a directive across Government that is tantamount to a wage freeze. That provision, in its modified form, finds our support too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne final point: these changes are all well and good, but I do not accept the proposition that you cannot have whole-of-Government cooperation and get out of silos without these changes to the law. These changes to the law might make it a little easier, but what you need is leadership. You need leadership at a ministerial level, at a departmental level, at a State services level. If you get that sort of leadership, you can achieve change across the Public Service. It is not about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7dd116245db40ad9e5e3f27d9192d95\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What about foreign affairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df6a103bb8594bada42692bf654fd213\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: What about foreign affairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226209ee691841468e813682b48c6f5dcc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve emacerated foreign affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbfda5974ef48d5a0330ac7f52c2fa1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, they macerated\u2014eviscerated\u2014[Interruption] Well, it was a mix of two words. I do not have time to talk about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; perhaps the honourable member can take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00224d8885574009447996ac1ecaaac4f727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d8885574009447996ac1ecaaac4f727\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E This legislation arising from the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill is helping to improve the performance of the Government sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aba5202425947f880f4b36734997d54\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: At foreign affairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e8b1085939e4c588e931ea0fa4c9b17\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: And why is that important, Mr Peters? Why is that important? I will tell you why it is important. It is because the public sector makes up about a quarter of the real economy. In the last Budget, we set out on a track of improving Government finances and returning to surplus by 2014-15. This legislation is going to help us to do it, because it will underpin a growing economy and a better-performing public sector. That is something that you would not know about, Mr Peters, because what you did was expand the size of the public sector without limit, and you are putting the burden on people in my electorate to pay the tax to cover that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe need to get our economy in order. We need to get our public sector legislation in good order because we want a buffer to deal with the next financial crisis or natural disaster when it comes along. This legislation\u2014to address the comments of the last speaker, David Parker\u2014will allow net public debt to peak at about 28.7 percent of GDP in 2014, before falling. It is very good legislation. It is the sort of legislation that enables wonderful services to be provided in our community, and I support this legislation absolutely. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00222c6d6226d64b46b5b3f41a2f32cabe7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c6d6226d64b46b5b3f41a2f32cabe7d\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this legislation arising from the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill. The Labour Party will be supporting this legislation through the House. We do have some reservations. We certainly opposed the original bill at its first reading, but changes forced at the Finance and Expenditure Committee by the State sector unions and by Labour have averted disaster for Government workers, who were set to lose their redundancy entitlements and employment rights under the previous version of the bill. As I say, Labour members and members of the Public Service Association (PSA) and the Council of Trade Unions are satisfied now with what has been achieved, so we are now much more comfortable with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt was heavily amended in the select committee, and the work of the committee is important. So I congratulate the members who worked on the legislation itself. Those negotiations have been fruitful, and it is important that this kind of legislation is able to succeed Governments\u2014go from one Government to another\u2014and preserve stability in the sector so that people who work in the sector have some kind of surety around their employment provisions. That leads to a more settled sector and gives the people who work there the ability to focus on the job at hand, rather than worrying about whether their conditions are going to be axed, as was proposed by the Government in the first version of the bill. So my congratulations go particularly to the PSA and the Council of Trade Unions on their involvement and on what has been achieved through the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe previous Labour member who spoke, David Parker, drew attention to the issue of leadership, and said that if you do not have good leadership by Ministers, in policy terms, unfortunately, this legislation will achieve nothing. This legislation is there to support good policy and the implementation of good policy. Indeed, that is the role of the State sector. It is there to challenge Ministers, to provide free and frank advice, and also to support the implementation of policy that is put forward by Ministers. We over this side of the House are not confident that this will lead to great policy by the current Government. If it has the wrong policies, or no policy or no plan at all, no amount of fine-tuning as to how departments deliver that absence of policy or that bad policy will help create a better New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis Government certainly has a poor record in that regard. John Key is on record as stating that he thinks that Kiwis are paying about the right amount for power. The current policy that is in place is being fine-tuned by this Government, but if it is the wrong policy, no amount of fine-tuning will fix it. Labour, on the other hand, has put forward a policy that would see the sector reformed and that would see the creation of an entity called NZ Power, which would make sure that Kiwi power bills for the average family went down by around $300 a year and would put a lid on future price rises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis kind of policy could be implemented more effectively with this legislation, which ensures that the agencies work together in a productive way. It strengthens the role of the State Services Commissioner in ensuring that Government agencies work collaboratively as a system. In fact, for the first time, the commissioner\u2019s role is set out in legislation. In some ways it is a wonder that that has never happened before. Certainly, across the sector it has been asked by many agencies what exactly the role of the State Services Commission is, and this is now laying it out in a way that shows the kinds of levers that the commission has to ensure that there are clear lines of accountability within the sector, that there is transparency in reporting, that there are sanctions and rewards\u2014and certainly the commissioner is responsible for making sure that the correct sanctions and rewards are in place for leaders of departments\u2014that the appropriate policy-provider splits are in place, and that other public sector management principles are observed. This legislation makes sure that the State Service is more effective, that there are the right safeguards in place, and that the chief executives have the power to delegate statutory functions as appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe new organisational arrangement is also covered in the legislation. The departmental agency, as a new organisation, will be interesting to watch. We will see how that plays out and whether that delivers something more than what we currently have in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut to return to the point, there is no way that this legislation will create good policy. It cannot create good policy; that is for Governments to do. That is for them to campaign on. That is for them to put out in the open and to have tested. The public may be convinced that there are advantages in certain policies. They will elect a Government. This legislation will give the opportunity for that Government to then implement stuff effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe leadership of this Government has been ineffectual in, for example, getting the economy back on track. We know that this Government here present in the Chamber\u2014and Mr Lotu-Iiga is concerned about it as much as I am, I think, going by the way he is shaking his head at the record of this Government\u2014has the worst economic record of any Government in the last 50 years, and no amount of legislation like this can correct for that. We know that historically in the last 50 years the economy has grown much faster under Labour Governments than it has under National Governments. It has grown at a rate of 3.7 percent, on average, under Labour Governments and only 2.9 percent under National Governments in the last 50 years. So Labour Governments, by nearly a percentage point more, grow the economy faster than National Governments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut this particular National Government has the worst of any record. It is actually dragging those averages down, and that is why I see those backbenchers there looking down, shaking their heads. They are embarrassed, and so they should be. I would be if I was in their position, too. I guess that is why we see Mr Joyce and Ms Collins at the front there, already jostling for position as to future leadership. Maybe they think they have a plan\u2014certainly, it could not be any less of a plan than is currently in place. This Government seems content to let things ride, to let this situation continue, and to see New Zealanders paying more than they ought to for power. It will not intervene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe know that housing, for example, is another area of policy where we see Kiwis no longer able to afford to own their own homes, and that is affecting a great number of Kiwi families. Labour has said that it will implement an affordable housing policy called KiwiBuild. This kind of legislation will enable us to implement such a policy more effectively when in Government, but this Government, which has no plan for housing and is content to see housing prices skyrocket out of control, will not fix anything with this legislation here. This will not help it form a plan\u2014no, by no means\u2014and we know that this Government has no plan for the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn the Finance and Expenditure Committee Minister Joyce was not across his portfolio when he came to speak to the select committee on economic development. He had not got his supplementary estimates questions in on time. He was a Minister who wanted to delay that. I asked that the committee postpone the hearing of evidence because Mr Joyce was not across his portfolios, and the National members on the committee blocked that. That is on record. In fact, I moved a resolution at that committee that said that we postpone the meeting until such time as the Minister is across his portfolios, and so scared were the members of the committee that they agreed, effectively\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229330e8e753b0476abeda0c8a133ba864\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb635590dfd423196d47a8277ec0e45\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it is on record, Mr Hayes, and we will look forward to hearing what you have to say that would contradict this when it is down in black and white. The members of the committee for National were not prepared to postpone the meeting until such time as the Minister was across his portfolios. I think they did not believe he ever would be, and that is the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis Government is filled with members who are not across their portfolios, who do not have an effective plan for growing the economy, and so ordinary New Zealanders are suffering as median wages go down. As costs go up, as New Zealanders out of work cannot find a job, those people who want to work hard to improve the lot of their families are faced with a Government that is interested in only the big end of town, that is seeing small business suffer, and that is seeing ordinary Kiwi families take home effectively less pay because the work is not there. The conditions are not right, because jobs are not there. This economy is struggling with a Government that has no leadership, no plan, and no way of looking out for the little guy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt is a Government that is concerned about only the big end of town, and this legislation will not help that. This legislation will not form a plan for the Government; it will only help to deliver on its promises a Government that actually has a plan. This Government will not be saved by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat said, it is good legislation. We will be supporting it, because it will enable future Governments that actually have a plan to make positive change in this House for the betterment of New Zealanders, so that ordinary Kiwis can finally get a chance to get ahead in an economy that grows. That would be a Labour Government, and hopefully it will come sooner rather than later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9d3dc58f7514e05ae38b64b00214d00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9d3dc58f7514e05ae38b64b00214d00\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bafa16aa28dc461991a8a3c4854c47b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the State Sector Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 95\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; ACT New Zealand 1; Independents: Dunne, Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 11; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000106\u0022\u003EPublic Finance Amendment Bill (No 2) read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000107\u0022\u003ECrown Entities Amendment Bill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8185a694b8c464d801f94dea1fb38a8\u0022\u003ETaxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f760814f87ec41399b38745d5bf4e6c3\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00223e65cd3d4e854862b228368d9de14d00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e65cd3d4e854862b228368d9de14d00\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time. It has been the Government\u2019s ongoing focus to steadily reduce inconsistencies and anomalies in our tax system in order to make it fairer for all taxpayers. This bill continues that focus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ETo remind members, I want to briefly summarise the main contents of this bill. The bill addresses the tax treatment of assets used both privately and for earning income, including holiday homes, boats, and aircraft. Following on from the changes to the livestock valuation rules in Budget 2012 legislation, this bill contains the detailed supporting provisions rules to the general proposal of the irrevocability of the herd scheme election. A proposal to treat lease inducement payments and lease surrender payments as taxable income for the recipient and as tax-deductible expenditure for the payer is also included in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EA number of GST-related changes are also proposed. It is proposed that certain non-resident businesses may register for GST and claim input tax deductions for GST incurred, with some restrictions to protect the tax base. It is also proposed that all local authorities move to an invoice accounting base for GST. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOther substantive measures include changes to the time periods for claiming refunds under the Income Tax Act 2007, ensuring that expenditure on trees and plantings for erosion, shelter, and water protection purposes is tax deductible, and clarification of the definition of dividend in relation to certain rights issues, premiums paid under book-building arrangements, and share splits by companies. Also included in this bill are two additions to the bill made by Supplementary Order Paper. These make remedial changes, which, respectively, align the Tax Administration Act 1994 with the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 and make minor technical adjustments to the Child Support Amendment Act 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThese are the main features of this bill. Together these measures will help strengthen our tax system and support our economy by ensuring that people more fairly pay tax that is due. It is a good bill. I would like to thank and acknowledge officials for their contribution in developing the policy, and the drafters who worked on the detail of the legislation. I would like to also thank the hard-working Finance and Expenditure Committee for its close consideration of the proposed reforms\u2014great consideration was given\u2014and I do know that members on both sides of the House spent extra time delightfully reading this important legislation in draft form at home, in their weekends. I am pleased to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002223d8d5faa6f34b878b8906c8d4001793\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223d8d5faa6f34b878b8906c8d4001793\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Revenue talked about the Government steadily reducing inconsistencies and anomalies. The only anomaly that it is reducing in this Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill is the car-park tax, which it stripped out of it. Talking about inconsistencies, under that Minister\u2019s plan, if a car-park was in the central business district of Auckland or Wellington and you used it, you paid fringe benefit tax on it outside work hours. If it happened to be two blocks over in the central business district fringe, it did not apply. If you were in the central business district of Christchurch or Dunedin, it did not apply\u2014well, it would not apply in Christchurch because there is no central business district. If you were in Tauranga or Hamilton, it would not apply. But if you were in Auckland or Wellington, it would. This Government is busy creating inconsistencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo under pressure from a very interesting coalition of unions, business groups, and Matthew Hooton, the Government rolled over and stripped\u2014not before time\u2014the ridiculous car-park tax out of this bill. It was ridiculous because it was going to cost more in compliance costs than it raised in revenue\u2014by some independent accounting estimates, more than twice as much in compliance costs. So it is typical. National says that it is the party of low compliance costs but it is busy introducing ridiculous taxes that raise costs for ordinary New Zealand businesses and workers. It says that it is the party of prudent fiscal management but actually it has the worst economic record in how many years, Dr Clark?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc64500ccc1549e890b660a39bbf0d0b\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: 50 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022939b8d72d81b48aba0482a822a5e9a67\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: 50 years. This Government has never run a fiscal surplus since taking office\u2014the last Labour Government never ran a fiscal deficit\u2014but it would have the country believe that it somehow has had a change of heart and it is now managing the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn this bill we no longer have a car-park tax. We need the Government to wake up and smell the coffee on several other ridiculous, petty taxes such as the iPad tax\u2014the idea that people, the public of New Zealand, would be charged for the personal use of their cellphones, iPads, and other devices. Imagine having to go through your phone bill and work out which were the private calls and which were the work calls, apportion them for tax purposes, and then, somehow, if you mention both in the same call, share the cost. What would be the compliance costs of that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat the Government is happy to tax the public on their private use of cellphones is kind of ironic, is it not, because now the Government wants the Government Communications Security Bureau to listen in as well on every cellphone call you make. I wonder whether the Government is going to tax us for that privilege as well. The Government has not, however, got the foresight or the ingenuity to ensure that the people who make cellphones and iPads are paying their fair share of tax. The base erosion problem looms large, and the Minister of Revenue is too busy chit-chatting in the House to do anything about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAnother example of this Government\u2019s ridiculous, petty tax drive is the bizarre proposal to tax clergy housing. We all know that clergy do not earn much money. They do not get full salaries; they just get stipends. Part of the way that is offset is that many clergy get a free house to live in\u2014a vicarage or a manse or some such. The Government thinks that should be taxed at an imputed, full cost, and the poor clergy or the poor church is going to have to find cash that they do not have to pay the grossed-up cost of this clergy tax. I want the Minister to stand up and tell the House he is going to fix that anomaly and that inconsistency, because it is not before time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAn accommodation fringe benefit tax is another thing the Government is pushing. The idea is that if you are in temporary accommodation for more than a year\u2014and that includes in Christchurch\u2014then that would be classed as a personal benefit and you would pay fringe benefit tax on it. Is that not ridiculous? The Government is going to be charging workers who move to Christchurch and have to stay in temporary lodgings for the rebuild a fringe benefit tax on their lodgings as if it were a private benefit. What a misbegotten, ridiculous impediment to the rebuild of Christchurch. I sincerely hope that the next Mayor of Christchurch, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, works with the Government to remove that ridiculous, petty tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill does a couple of useful things. We agree with the Government on the fact that we should be charging people\u2019s private use of baches, boats, and cars appropriately, and if it is a business expense for a certain part of the year, the tax implications ought to be proportionate. There is no argument about that. We also agree that the livestock taxation rules, the valuation rules, should be adjusted to prevent people turning what should be profit-earning farming businesses simply into capital gains plays because of the absence of a proper capital gains tax. This bill does not go that far, but it at least tightens some of the egregious loopholes around livestock valuation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge David Bennett MP, who brought some of his former professional training to bear on the drafting of that part of the bill. It is good to see the poacher becoming a gamekeeper\u2014I wish that applied to all his colleagues. In the background of this bill is the issue that the public of New Zealand is sick and tired of waiting for this Government to show some leadership and a real economic plan. The public is tired of hearing excuses for why the New Zealand economy cannot get out of the rut and why we have to put up with some of the highest unemployment in the developed world. Previously, under the Labour-led Government, we had the absolute lowest unemployment in the developed world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhether it is the global financial crisis or the Christchurch earthquakes, this Government is fast running out of excuses. At a time when decisive leadership, decisive action, and real vision are required, this Government is tooling around with petty, ridiculous taxes on car-parks, on iPads, on clergy housing, and on Christchurch accommodation and the like. It is putting up compliance costs, putting up costs on ordinary New Zealanders, and making it more difficult\u2014not easier\u2014for people to get ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAn aspect that this bill starts to touch on is the erosion of the tax base, and it makes small but useful progress on closing down a couple of loopholes. But in the meantime, in the background, there is massive avoidance going on through the use of company structures and the use of trusts. The sad fact is that more than half of the hundred wealthiest New Zealanders are not even declaring tax at the top tax rate. Let us say that again: half of the hundred wealthiest New Zealanders\u2014these are multimillionaires, if not billionaires\u2014are declaring that they are not even on the top tax rate. They are declaring incomes, therefore, that are less than\u2014and the Minister of Revenue is so ashamed that he has crossed the floor and will now be sitting on the Labour benches, helping to bring down this Government. He is helping to bring down this Government. [Interruption] He wants to take the next call. I yield my time to the new member of the Labour Party\u2014well, I suppose we have got certain constitutional process, Todd, so you can lodge your nomination at www.labour.org.nz, and say: \u201CI want to be a candidate because I\u2019m jumping off the sinking rat-infested ship called National and I\u2019m coming to work with the Labour Party to make New Zealand a better and brighter place.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe recognise that member\u2019s foresight. It is really a death wish to stay on that side of the House, because here is the most important economic legislation of the day, which the Government has put right up on the flagpole: a very, very limited tightening of loopholes around baches and boats. That is good as far as it goes. We will be supporting that. In the background are these two 800-pound gorillas: the fact that the bill is full of petty taxes and puts up compliance costs on New Zealand, and the fact that the Government does not have a vision for getting our economy out of the rut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EYou can tell a lot in Parliament by the way members are sitting. Colleagues, when you look across the floor and you see those members looking at their feet, shuffling their papers out of embarrassment that this is the best that their ministry can do in trying to modernise the tax system, you know that that is a Government that is not long for this world. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022be88de06e17241e2a1a14a6bbd2e5e14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be88de06e17241e2a1a14a6bbd2e5e14\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I am not sure what planet that last speaker, David Cunliffe, is on, but let me contest what he is saying. I think we are seeing a Government on this side of the House that is focused on building a stronger, more stable economy that can weather global storms and deliver higher incomes and more jobs. The Government has set out a very clear economic programme to support and accelerate that progress, and this taxation legislation we are discussing this morning\u2014the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u2014is going to help deliver that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E Under the leadership of our Prime Minister, John Key, the National Government approach has been clear and predictable. We have said very clearly to the last speaker, David Cunliffe: \u201CNo capital gains tax. No capital gains tax.\u201D That is why he is spitting the dummy this morning, because that is the legislation he wants. We have told New Zealanders what we will do. We have campaigned successfully on our programme over two elections. We have taken New Zealanders with us by making consistent and moderate changes year after year, as we have promised. In the shorter term, we have worked to protect New Zealanders from the sharpest edges of recession, and the people of Christchurch from the unavoidable effects of devastating earthquakes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe have incurred significant extra debt by spending in excess of our revenue to protect the most vulnerable families, to maintain living standards, and to support the renewal of our second-largest city. This legislation is entirely supportive of that direction. At the same time, we have set out on a longer-term path to repair the damage to our economy from a decade of excessive borrowing, consumption, and Government spending by that last speaker\u2019s party. We are rebuilding the economic capacity to deliver more jobs and higher incomes over the next decade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe Government is in the midst of a comprehensive programme to give businesses and families the confidence to invest in our shared future, despite global economic uncertainty. There really is only one way that we can do that. We need to shift resources away from debt-funded consumption and housing investment and towards more savings and investment in export-intensive sectors. New Zealanders have a good understanding of the challenges faced by the wider economy, and they understand the importance of this taxation legislation. I totally support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc23c4077e7f458d960862fecc809a1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc23c4077e7f458d960862fecc809a1e\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E It is not working. The member Mr Hayes, who has resumed his seat, has talked about this long-term plan that the Government is putting in place to support the economy and growth through tough times\u2014all of that. The Government has been here for 5 long years, and we do not see the results. This Government still has the worst economic record of any Government in the last 50 years, and that is a shocking reputation to have. No amount of spin by Mr Hayes is going to change that fact. If the economy is not growing and if the policies are not working, carrying on with the same policy is not going to change anything, Mr Hayes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EComing back to the specifics of this bill, the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill, it is a bill that does amend the Income Tax Act. It attempts to plug a few holes here and there. There is nothing wrong with that\u2014nothing wrong with that. It is what is not in this bill that is the most significant talking point. This bill refuses to engage with pro-growth tax reform\u2014the kinds of things Mr Hayes was explicitly ruling out in his speech. The OECD, the IMF, Treasury, and nearly every Western country believe that a capital gains tax is the answer to an anomaly in the tax system. It is a way to make sure that every Kiwi pays their fair share and to make sure that the investment signal is neutralised. But Mr Hayes continues on saying that his Government will not listen to the OECD. It will not listen to the IMF. It will not listen to Treasury. It will not listen to any serious economic commentator. It is determined to carry on. Mr English is there, driving along the motorway\u2014driving along the motorway\u2014in his little clapped out 1970s Honda Civic. He is driving along, and he says that everyone is going the wrong way. Everyone on the motorway is going the wrong way. The OECD is going the wrong way. The IMF is going the wrong way. Treasury is going the wrong way. They do not know what they are talking about. Every other Western country does not know what it is talking about. Mr English is the only one driving the right way on the motorway, and along he goes\u2014vroom, vroom, vroom! He is saying: \u201CWe will not adopt pro-growth tax reform. We want to carry on as we were. We\u2019ve got pride. We\u2019ve got our pride. If the economy suffers, if New Zealanders suffer, we don\u2019t care; we\u2019re going to keep driving the wrong way along the motorway.\u201D That is where he is sitting, and that is what Mr Hayes is promoting here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWell, a Shearer-led Labour Government will bring pro-growth tax reform to New Zealand. We care, Mr Hayes, about the future of New Zealand. We care about those who are struggling. We care that the median wage has gone down under this Government in real terms, and that the average New Zealand family is much, much worse off than when this Government took power 5 years ago. We care that New Zealanders are struggling and that they cannot pay their power bills. We will introduce policies to make power more affordable, because we recognise that it is a problem. Again, this Government says that there is no problem: \u201COh, the system is fair. Everyone is paying a fair amount for their power prices.\u201D That is what Mr Key says. Well, New Zealanders disagree. Labour disagrees. We think that we need a plan to address these things in our country that are wrong. We will take a hands-on approach to the economy and we will address the big issues. A Shearer-led Labour Government will be out there making the changes that need to be made, because that is the plan. We have a plan, unlike the members opposite. We think that the matters that matter to ordinary New Zealanders need to be addressed. We are not going to stick our heads in the sand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis legislation repairs little gaps here and there in the tax system, but it does not address those fundamental issues that will get our economy back on track. We know that these changes that are proposed will not close the loopholes whereby 75 percent of New Zealanders with a net worth over $50 million are not paying the top tax rate. That means that they are not declaring income over $70,000. That means that the tax system is fundamentally not fair. It is not making sure that every New Zealander pays their fair share. The little guy at the bottom and the little solo mother, whoever it is, are paying their fair share of tax. They have got no opportunity to get around it. But many at the top end are employing the accountants necessary to avoid their obligations, and are burying things in capital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt does not suit these folks here to challenge that. They have said that. Mr Hayes has said that they are not going to change that. They are not interested in pro-growth tax reform. They are not interested in a capital gains tax. They are not interested in research and development. They are content to let ordinary New Zealanders struggle, whilst those who already have a lot of money protect their interests. That is where the Government\u2019s interests lie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that the Government has got on the table for tax reform is to start charging for clergy housing\u2014introducing a tax on clergy housing. Yes, members of the House heard it right\u2014a tax on clergy housing. We know what that will mean. It will mean that many small, struggling, rural communities, those who are suffering the most under this Government\u2019s terrible policies, will no longer be able to afford to have a full-time vicar or minister in their local community. Often, that person is the last professional left in the community. Those vicars, those ministers, and those pastors in those small rural communities are often the only professionals left in town. Struggling families go to them for advice, for basic legal advice or for advice on filling out forms for the Government\u2014for all manner of things. They are not just \u201Chatching, matching, and dispatching\u201D, as is the ordinary work of the vicar. They are out there, supporting small communities. But many small communities will lose their vicars, they will lose their ministers, because this Government wants to introduce another petty tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt introduced the paper boy tax, the paper girl tax. Let us think back to that terrible Budget where the Government tried to stamp on the paper boys and paper girls of New Zealand by introducing a new tax. We have got the Government also trying to introduce a car-park tax. Well, that was in this legislation, until there was a popular revolt. The Government is always trying to put petty taxes on New Zealanders, on ordinary, struggling New Zealanders, but not actually addressing the big issues, not actually putting progressive tax reform in place. The Government is not willing to entertain pro-growth tax reform that the OECD, the IMF, Treasury, and every serious economist recommends, or introducing a capital gains tax that would see money flow towards the productive sector and away from the speculators. If it is not in this Government\u2019s interests, the Government will not entertain it. So we do not see it in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut those families out there in the small communities, who are really hurting, who are seeing the absence of jobs hit their families hardest, which is a consistent feature of this Government, have been given increased prescription charges by this Government. It just builds up and builds up and builds up. Those communities will not have a local minister or vicar to advocate for them, if this tax on clergy housing goes ahead. They will lose those people who support their communities, due to another petty tax. This Government is just after the little guy, and that is a shame\u2014that is a terrible shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe in the Labour Party do not have any problem with the Government tightening up the tax system. We will be supporting this legislation. But we wish this Government would step up and address the big issues that would get the economy back on track, that would see the kind of growth in the economy that you get under a Labour Government. I remind members of this House that over the last 50 years Labour Governments have grown the economy by 3.7 percent, on average, while National Governments have grown the economy by nearly a percentage point lower. This National Government is worse than most. Its record on growing the economy is the worst, as we know, in the last 50 years. It is worse than most. That is, in part, because the Government is not willing to step up and address the big issues of the day. We have the worst current account deficit in the developed world, the IMF says\u2014the worst. It is worse than that of Greece. And yet this Government does nothing about it. We see the Minister of Finance sticking his head in the sand. He is driving his clapped out 1970s Honda Civic the wrong way up the motorway, saying that everybody else has got it wrong. All those people in their Lexus, their Toyota, or their Subaru, going the other way, zipping past, have got it wrong. The OECD\u2014what would it know? The IMF\u2014what would it know? Treasury\u2014what would it know? Every other Western country\u2014what would it know about pro-growth tax reform? Mr English, in his clapped out 1970s Honda Civic, going the wrong way down the motorway, is convinced that he is the only one who has got it right. He will not introduce pro-growth tax reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis Government is determined to protect the interests of the big end of town, and does not seem interested in getting our economy back on track so that everyone\u2014everyone\u2014can get ahead, so that the ordinary New Zealand family would start to see jobs being created, start seeing wages go up, and start seeing the kinds of incomes that they could live on to help their families get ahead, which would mean that they would have the security for their future, that they could save, and that they could actually dream of owning a house one day. It will take a Labour Government to introduce policies like KiwiBuild, to introduce pro-growth tax reform, and to bring power prices down through NZ Power. A Shearer-led Labour Government will get these policies in place and will make sure that we are addressing the big issues, not these issues that we are tinkering with here in this bill. We need a Labour Government, and we need it soon. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00227af958aaac8144cbaee46f7fbc31006e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227af958aaac8144cbaee46f7fbc31006e\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I rise to speak on the third reading of the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill. The Green Party will be supporting this bill because it does make some entirely consistent and logical, but very small, moves to tighten up the tax system. But I have to say that we are very disappointed that we did not take the original opportunity that was proposed in this bill to explore extending the fringe benefit tax to employer-provided car-parks in the Auckland and Wellington central business districts. It is really unfortunate that there was such an uninformed debate about it, and that the position the Labour Party took was so inconsistent with the other sorts of outcomes and objectives that it says it is trying to achieve. Of course, it is just as bad that the National Government dropped it. It is always good to see it propose to tighten up loopholes, particularly in the case when it is going to have added benefits for things like our transport system in our two biggest cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has a very keen interest in reforming our tax system to get better outcomes. The main reason that I stood for the Green Party and I am in Parliament is not just so I can collect a pay cheque; it is that we have some pretty pressing problems that we need to address. One of these is climate change. We have to transition to a sustainable low-carbon economy. If anybody was looking at the Guardian last night, there is a very interesting article about a paper by James Hansen, one of the foremost climate scientists in the world, stating that if we do not fully decarbonise by 2030, we risk completely wrecking the planet for future generations. Obviously, I think everyone in New Zealand, and everyone in this House, cares about their children and their grandchildren, and the opportunities that they are going to have to live great lives and to have prosperous, sustainable lives. All of us need to come together and figure out how we are going to address this problem. How are we going to transition to a sustainable economy\u2014one that is not over-reliant on fossil fuels? It is not that difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIn fact, when I studied economics, urban planning, and transport planning, and when I worked as a consultant urban planner and transport planner, I found we were working on exactly these sorts of smart ideas that can easily be implemented and that are going to result in all sorts of co-benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E So not only can we decarbonise our economy but also we can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246acc94a56064c4b886db2f5db5ace34\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Taxation, we are on taxation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83f480bbfc74f89aabb2a917042b51d\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014do it in a way that is going to save money and get better outcomes in other parts of our lives. Tax law is exactly one of those areas where we can get those sorts of smart outcomes. What was proposed originally in this bill is a perfect example of that. What was proposed was extending fringe benefit tax to employer-provided car-parks, admittedly only in the Auckland and Wellington central business districts, as those are the areas where car-parks have the highest value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EInterestingly, early last year, in 2012, there was a research report published by the New Zealand Transport Agency entitled Company cars and fringe benefit tax\u2014understanding the impacts on strategic transport targets. This research report had not been provided to members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I do not think officials at the Inland Revenue Department even knew about it when they were proposing to extend fringe benefit tax to car-parks; they were just looking for a way to raise a little bit of revenue. It turns out that there had been all this work done for the New Zealand Transport Agency. It had spoken to somebody at the Inland Revenue Department, and what it found was that there were huge potential benefits from extending fringe benefit tax to car-parks in the Auckland and Wellington central business districts, and potentially, actually, anywhere where car-parks have a high value. Of course, other countries have done this. It is a perfectly logical thing to do. Australia extends fringe benefit tax to car-parks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat is the point of this? A lot of people got very unhappy about the idea, and made it sound like it was a very unfair thing to do, to tax a car-park. In fact, the value of a car-park in the Auckland or Wellington central business districts is, conservatively, $2,750 annually\u2014that is a very conservative estimate of the value of a car-park. The value of an annual public transport pass is $2,700\u2014very similar. If an employer wanted to provide public transport passes to its employees, it would be forced to pay fringe benefit tax on those public transport passes. If it offers its employees a free car-park, it is not required to pay fringe benefit tax. This is not fair. It is not going to result in good outcomes for transport in our two biggest cities in New Zealand, when we have serious issues with congestion in Auckland, if employers are able to use a tax loophole\u2014and that is what this is\u2014to provide benefits to their employees and not have to pay tax on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHow is it fair, when the majority of people commuting to work in the Wellington and Auckland central business districts do not drive and do not receive free employer-provided car-parks? How is it fair that they get taxed on the additional income they might receive instead of a free car-park or on their public transport passes, if the employer decided to provide them, yet we are not going to tax the equivalent benefit of a free car-park, even though that incentivises people to drive into the central business districts at peak time, thereby congesting the roads? Here was something that was actually going to raise a small amount of revenue for the Government, was going to result in getting the incentives right, direct, and fair, and was going to have potentially huge benefits for reducing congestion in Auckland, because it would mean we were no longer subsidising single-occupant vehicle trips into the Auckland central business district. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI admit there were some problems with the proposal. One of the problems was that it could have unfairly hit shift workers such as cleaners who have to go to Skycity in the middle of the night. Obviously, it is entirely possible to design this in a way that it would not affect people who do not travel at peak times, because the value of a car-park is highest at peak time. Actually, there are a whole lot of empty car-parks in Auckland and Wellington central business districts in the middle of the night. There is no reason why somebody using a car-park in the middle of the night should be taxed for it, because the value changes depending on the demand and the time of day. Since there is a huge surplus of car-parks in the middle of the night in the Auckland and Wellington central business districts, I think it would have been entirely possible to design the tax in such a way that it got the outcome we wanted, which was simply to remove a tax loophole that primarily benefits high-income earners. If you look at the people who drive into Auckland and Wellington central business districts for work, they are all on above-average incomes, and the vast majority of them are on the highest incomes\u2014well over $100,000 a year. What many people in the House have described as a sort of unfair tax that would hit hard-working Kiwis would actually have been simply taxing appropriately people who are already on extremely high incomes, and making sure that they have the opportunity to benefit from consuming fewer resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAs I said before, the Green Party is very interested in using the tax system to get outcomes that are win-win, that are better for the economy, that are better for people, and that are better for the environment. It is entirely possible to do this. We have so many opportunities, if we stop thinking in silos and in this kind of reductionist way that got us into the problem we are in. If we start recognising the interconnectedness of our transport system, of our tax law, and of our urban planning laws, we can create an Aotearoa that is decarbonised, that has less air and water pollution, that has better public health outcomes, and that has good and equal opportunity for everyone, so everyone is looked after and it is not just the rich and the children of the rich who get richer, with the poorer stuck down there at the bottom. We can create this, and all it takes are some smart Green solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is also going to require some patient, informed debate. We cannot constantly be jumping on proposals that Government members put forward that might be good, just because we see a political opportunity to kick them when they are down. I welcome this Government introducing good, positive initiatives that will result in better outcomes and more sustainable outcomes, and a fairer, more sustainable Aotearoa. I would love to see more of that from it. Unfortunately, we do not see much at the moment. A perfect example is in this bill, which is about to pass into law without us having taken the opportunity to get a better outcome for our transport system. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00221ada2487c7984e96b8f015057e161365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ada2487c7984e96b8f015057e161365\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure for me to speak on this Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill. This is yet another example of a progressive National Government working towards a best-practice, broad-based, low-taxation system. This is a bill that promotes fairness and integrity across the tax system and strengthens our economy. It certainly focuses in on the rural economy and it clarifies taxation regarding livestock, which has been something that has needed clarification for a long period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is very refreshing that the Greens are indeed supporting this bill, and I was delighted to hear Julie Anne Genter make the comment that, once again, here are the Greens seeing the light, supporting the National Government. After all, this bill also supports the environment and it confirms that farmers\u2019 riparian planting is immediately tax deductible. This is a comprehensive bill and it is entirely worthy of support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022de648102a0984da1a28d7327a86af506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de648102a0984da1a28d7327a86af506\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on this bill, the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill, on behalf of New Zealand First, and what a pleasure it is this time to be able to speak after Dr Paul Hutchison, rather than before. What a great morning in the House it is when we can alternate our positions and have a chance to comment in reverse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9ea454673d04b98b65481a1eaf9e5c9\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: The member supports the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f593f48af39416eb279130c836640c1\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014and, in this case, Dr Hutchison, you will be most pleased that New Zealand First is supporting this bill and that we are in line with much of the thinking that is in this bill. Rather than the previous State sector legislation where we were opposing the gutting of the Public Service, in this case we are supporting this bill. In this respect we support some of the measures, including the livestock valuation rule changes. We support the GST changes, which remove the inequitable situation of non-resident versus resident businesses. We support that this bill provides tax deductibility for expenditure on trees and plantings for erosion, shelter, and water protection purposes. As Dr Hutchison just said, this is a good measure because increasingly with our changing climate and the situation where we are having increasingly erratic weather conditions, we certainly do need to be very mindful of the significant erosion that is occurring around New Zealand. Therefore, tax deductibility to farmers and others, of course, in terms of the planting of trees and shelters, and water protection - purpose plantings, is all good for the environment and it does help to mitigate some of the adverse effects that are occurring in the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill also gives donee status to three charity organisations that operate internationally, and, again, this is sensible for those three charities concerned. It also eliminates tax treatment mismatches to certain foreign currency hedges. Again, in that foreign currency area, this is sensible policy to sort out that particular matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe were very pleased that the Government withdrew from this bill the car-park tax on the Auckland central business district and on the Wellington central business district. They were a nonsense, and, again, they were going to cost in the order of something like $30 million to secure $17 million in tax revenue. That was a no-brainer, so New Zealand First did put pressure on to have it withdrawn, and we were pleased that the Government did withdraw it from the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EOverall, this is a bill that helps to strengthen the tax system. It helps to streamline aspects. It takes out quite a number of loopholes and makes improvements where they are needed. The bill makes it easier for taxpayers, both personal and corporate taxpayers, and so New Zealand First will be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022db471106731e484dbe583fd7885124a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db471106731e484dbe583fd7885124a6\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to stand in support of the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill in its third reading. I am very keen to talk about the riparian planting programme in Taranaki, which this bill brings some assistance to. As you know, Taranaki is a very extensive farming locality in our country, and we are pleased to note that 96 percent of all Taranaki dairy farms and almost all of the ring plain and coastal terraces of Taranaki have a riparian management programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ESo what this bill will do in terms of the management plans that are put in place is it will continue to encourage and incentivise farmers to plant out the 17,000 kilometres of stream banks in the Taranaki region with plants that will protect our waterways. So we are a very forward-thinking region, we are already at work doing this, and it is great to stand in support of this bill, which is going to bring a greater assistance to that programme. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222f7a8075c86f4bbe99a28dddd6a5708c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f7a8075c86f4bbe99a28dddd6a5708c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I begin by also acknowledging the contribution earlier of Julie Anne Genter. I thought that was a very erudite exposition of the principles that should underlie a neutral tax system. The difficulty that the Labour Party had with this proposal was that the compliance costs, as designed, were high. Some of the other complexities that the member noted herself in respect of shift workers had not been fixed in the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill, and the politics of it got away from the Government in a way that nobody could fix. But the member is quite right in her analysis about what a neutral tax system should look like and how that can have both economic and environmental benefits for our country. I congratulate her on her contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to, whilst noting that the Labour Government will be supporting this bill for reasons that other\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228dba20f5ffd45358ba5b0ee5b2ed8ba\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Labour Government\u2014soon-to-be Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dcc0f8558c4469aaf0329ca1ba324b3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour soon-to-be Government, sorry. The Labour Party will be supporting the\u2014I am not sure whether I am ahead of myself or long behind, but I am\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c7211f043544021b0834dfebcbcad66\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re slightly premature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6db71e7bcd944f7bb9426412d3804c5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Premature\u2014I like to think of it that way, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ea552eb6f04febb3e736a93d92aa06\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not in every sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426694053487446c94ae99140b157b77\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I think I might return to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOther Opposition members have already acknowledged that this bill does make some minor improvements to the taxation system and that therefore it deserves the support of the House. But I want to return to the points that David Clark was addressing at the end of his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe had a question in the House yesterday, which the Government put up to itself, where it tried to congratulate itself on having a good redistributive tax system. The problem is that it is not, compared with most OECD countries, and that was made clear by the OECD report on New Zealand that came out about a month ago\u2014in June. That report said that New Zealand\u2019s tax system is less redistributive than most OECD tax systems. What it did not say was that this Government has made it worse. This Government gave 40 percent of its income tax cuts to the top 10 percent of income earners. Mr English had the audacity to stand up and say that all is well in New Zealand, ignoring the fact that the income tax system is less redistributive than it was when the Government came to power and is now, according to the OECD, less redistributive than the average. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe same OECD report lamented the fact that income inequality in New Zealand is rising faster than in just about any other OECD country. We are no longer the equal country that we were 20 years ago. We are not, as yet, as unequal as some of the least fair societies in the OECD, but the rate of change as we progress towards being less equal than others is one of the worst in the OECD, and this Government has made it worse. It has made it worse not just through its changes to income tax but through the increase in GST that it imposed upon New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo with 40 percent of the income tax cuts having gone to the top 10 percent of income earners, what was the distributional effect of the increase in GST that happened about the same time? The distributional effect of that was that it made New Zealand\u2019s tax system less progressive and more regressive. The reason is that when you have GST it is effectively a tax on the wages of low and middle income people, because their wages are all spent on GST-inclusive services, with the exception of their rent and interest payments. The proportion of a low to middle income earner\u2019s income that is spent on GST is higher than the proportion of income that is spent by a high-income person on GST. So, in effect, GST is more expensive for low and middle income people than it is for high-income people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat was another step by this National Government towards a less equal and more unfair society\u2014so much so, as I have already said, that the OECD has been lamenting the fact that New Zealand is becoming an unequal place. Further, the OECD noted that the most glaring hole in our tax system is not these little things that are being fiddled around with by this bill, but the lack of any taxation on capital income. There is very, very little tax on capital income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESam Lotu-Iiga shakes his head and says that is not right. Well, he is wrong. He says that is not right; he is absolutely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe National Government occasionally says: \u201CWell, if you\u2019re a trader in property, you pay tax.\u201D Yes, but you are not paying tax on capital income; you are paying tax on trading income. The wealthiest people in New Zealand can construct their affairs in such a way that their income is capital income, not taxable income. We do not tax capital income in New Zealand. We on the Labour Party side are not saying that you should tax all capital income. You have to be careful that you are not taxing inflationary gains in property, because that is not real income, but you should be taxing capital income, because otherwise you have rising inequality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EYou have lots of other problems as well. One of the reasons why we have got rampant house price inflation is that there is a tax bias\u2014which is felt most in Auckland at the moment\u2014that drives investment into rental housing because there is a tax break. Again, the OECD said this in its report in just the last month. It said that the effective tax on different classes of investment is different, and that drives investment patterns. The effective tax rate on capital gains from investing in residential housing is nil\u2014it is nil. In fact, you get tax deductibility from interest, which includes an inflation component. You would, effectively, get a tax deduction for some of the inflation that you suffer when you are in society because your interest payment includes an inflationary component. You get a tax deduction for that in New Zealand. You do not get taxed on any of the gain\u2014any of the gain\u2014and it is just unfair. Not only is it unfair; it holds the economy back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat is why, when we talk about capital gains tax, we are safe when we say that a capital gains tax excluding the family home would grow the economy. It is part of our pro-growth tax reform package. We know that if you have a proper tax signal in the economy, instead of overinvestment in the housing market in Auckland\u2014which drives up house prices, to the detriment of people trying to buy their first home. It also means that there is not enough money going into other, more productive parts of the economy. So too much money goes into the speculative economy based on a tax bias favouring tax-free capital gains\u2014capital income\u2014and not enough money goes into our productive factories, or into our service industries, which are selling services overseas and even into other parts of our export economy. That is one of the reasons why this Government has failed completely in its ambition to rebalance the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENational came into office promising that it was going to do a number of things. It was going to stop the drain of people going to Australia. \u201CWave Goodbye to Higher Taxes. Not Your Loved Ones.\u201D was its slogan. It has failed completely in that ambition, with more than 200,000 New Zealanders having since left to live permanently in Australia\u2014an enormous number of people. It is going to show up in the census figures when they come out soon, particularly in some of the provincial centres that have been so ignored by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt also shows up in the Government\u2019s failure to rebalance the economy towards exports. Exports as a percentage of GDP have not changed, despite the Government\u2019s promise that it was going to increase exports as a percentage of GDP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOf course, it also shows up in the lamentable statistic that New Zealand has the worst current account deficit in the developed world, according to the IMF. The OECD says that it is the second worst in the developed world and is likely to be for the next 3 or 4 years, into the end of the projection period\u2014worse than Greece\u2019s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis is all because we do not cover the cost of our imports and interest from the value of our exports, in part because our tax system has these structural biases that drive our investment capital into the wrong parts of the economy. It costs us jobs. Wages are lower as a consequence. We are a low-wage economy compared with most of the developed world now. And this National Government does nothing to change that, because it has not got the gumption to put aside the interests of the cronies for whom it governs\u2014to put aside the interests of the wealthiest in society, who, in the long term, would benefit from the changes that we propose, but who would in the short term pay a little bit more tax. This bill does not do the many things that are needed to improve the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u00222edd845921ec48ce93c3b2d7900f34ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222edd845921ec48ce93c3b2d7900f34ef\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a short call on this, the third reading of the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill. I thank the Minister of Revenue, the Hon Todd McClay, for his work on this bill, also the previous Minister, the Hon Peter Dunne, certainly, for his hard work on this, and also the Finance and Expenditure Committee members who worked on this bill to bring it back to the House. As you have heard, and those around the country have heard, it has got widespread support here in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ESo what is the purpose of the bill? It foreshadows Budget 2012 and the measures that we placed within that Budget\u2014a well-received Budget, a popular Budget out in our communities. It broadens the tax base. The changes will make the tax system fairer, the economy stronger, and, contrary to my colleague across the House who just sat down, David Parker, it actually will provide jobs and opportunities going forward. I see a few young people up in the gallery here. To the young people of New Zealand, this bill will actually create jobs for you in your futures going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d940bde8afb4d76beb0b60569f7d854\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: The bill introduces amendments to several inland revenue Acts and regulations. It includes supporting provisions, as my colleagues have already mentioned, to the livestock valuation rules, which make elections to use the herd scheme generally irrevocable. That is popular in both rural and provincial New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EBut the measure that is popular in my electorate of Maungakiekie is around the amendments to make two specific commercial land - related lease payments\u2014namely lease inducement payments and lease surrender payments\u2014taxable and deductible. This, again, reinforces the purpose of the bill: to make it fairer and to improve business efficiency across our country. The bill also tightens the rules for deducting costs of assets such as holiday homes, boats, and aircraft that are used by the owner both privately and to earn income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. It continues this Government\u2019s focus on ensuring that everyone pays their fair share of tax and its focus on continuing to support jobs and opportunities in our economy. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00228c5f79fbde1448a3b3138537576985b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c5f79fbde1448a3b3138537576985b1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E What a rubbish speech that was! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf9b43e2e6a40509ca6dd193c0a9488\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617fbdf54e6648fb9aa3fbca173799bc\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Twiddling your thumbs while Rome burns. That member, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, more than anyone else, should know that what this Government has done around tax has been outrageous. I have to say, I went to a breakfast yesterday morning put on by the voluntary sector. Professor Robert Wade\u2014a Kiwi, actually, at the London School of Economics\u2014was hosted by the Hon Jo Goodhew. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have never seen a Minister look so uncomfortable in my life. Here was a National Government Minister hosting a person who basically stood up and said that the taxation regime in this country is outrageous and that the changes this National Government has made\u2014he did not refer directly to the Government, he was far more polite than that; I am less polite\u2014have created more inequality. He said the tax changes put in place by this Government\u2014and the Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill does no more than tinker\u2014have driven greater inequality up and down this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EProfessor Wade clearly laid out what that means for a society, and it is pretty sad. We have, as has been explained by previous speakers, a number of technical issues around holiday homes, boats, and aircraft, and other issues, and some around the livestock taxation changes, which bring a bit more balance and a bit more certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bottom line is that when the National Government came into power it made two key changes to taxation, and I do not see a reversal of those changes in this bill here. Firstly, it lowered the tax for the most wealthy in this country, and, secondly, it increased it for everyone else through GST. People have probably forgotten that GST was 12.5 percent in 2008, and the National Government has now got it at 15 percent. It is a regressive tax, because those on low incomes spend all of their incomes surviving; those at the top end spend a small portion of their income, the rest they can spend in ways that do not attract GST. So not only did we have lower taxes for people at the top; we had regressive taxation and GST increases at the bottom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill tinkers. The people at the top will have holiday homes and boats and aircraft, and they have been able to get a bit of tax break on that. People will say that is outrageous and that the National Government is very good to be moving on this area. Well, do not be sucked in. This is tinkering around the edges, and I am sure many of the people at the top end\u2014people who have an aircraft and get a tax break on it, or have a holiday home and use it for something else\u2014will find another way to get around it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut the core issues of taxation are around the increase in GST. And the other one that the Government slipped in at the start of this month was, of course, the increase in petrol tax\u20143c extra for every litre of petrol for every single Kiwi in this country. The people in the regions are outraged because they are paying, basically, for money to go to Auckland. Everyone who does not have access to public transport is having to pay a whole lot more. That is increasing taxation to people who cannot avoid it and decreasing taxation to those who can, at the top end. That has been the consistent approach of the National Party in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ERobert Wade embarrassed the Minister there yesterday\u2014and she should have felt that way. He talked about a just society being one where distribution is done in the right way, not redistribution. What we are effectively talking about here are changes in redistribution\u2014tinkering at the edges, but not going to the core of the taxation system in this country. My colleagues have pointed out a number of other flaws. On balance, we will support the bill. It makes, as I said, slight progress in areas, tidying up a bit here and a bit there, but it does not do anything to change the underlying unfairness of taxation in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E I raise another point that a colleague brought up yesterday, and that is in regard to the Inland Revenue Department and its whole running of the taxation system. Its ability to actually implement all these changes has come under serious question, and, of course, its use of consultants is now being exposed. The Government, in slashing and undermining Public Service capability, is increasingly bringing consultants into the taxation system, and every other area of Government responsibility, at a far greater cost, but they are on a different appropriation line. Sometimes, it is hard to track down unless we ask the right questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe point is that if the Inland Revenue Department is going to give effect to the changes here, it has to have the capability, and bringing in consultants to help it tidy up mistakes of the past or to deal with a lack of capability is not the best way forward. If the Inland Revenue Department does not get on and improve the system, and if the Government does not fund it properly, then not only will the computer system fall over but so too will the basis of taxation in this country. So I hope that the Government gets on and deals with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI will just finish on an issue around livestock valuation, and I would like to reinforce a point I made earlier in the debate a couple of weeks ago. The Government seems to be, and claims to be, very good at livestock taxation. It is the issue of deadstock taxation that I want to refer to. The Government\u2019s management of the trade of meat has not been good. Once again, it has squeezed a Government department, and it has no ability now to manage exports from this country into what are complex markets like China. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI fear that the ongoing determination by this Government to drive down Government capability is going to lead to some major problems, and none more so than in the area of biosecurity, once again. If biosecurity is breached\u2014and this may be a corny connection but it is none the less an important one\u2014and we end up with foot-and-mouth disease, the result will be that although the Government has sorted out livestock taxation, we will have a hell of a lot of deadstock taxation and a major blow to our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo in endorsing and supporting the bill, I just want to remind the House that the Government record in the area of taxation is outrageous. It has made changes to give greater benefit to those at the top, and imposed a greater burden on those at the bottom. That creates an unfair society, and it is one that we do not support in any way at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002253582398621343e6b10ed467197b8baf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253582398621343e6b10ed467197b8baf\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make just a very short contribution to commend the Minister of Revenue and to draw the House\u2019s attention to a very sensible amendment that has some conservation significance. This Taxation (Livestock Valuation, Assets Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill enables us to have tax deductibility for farmers for riparian planting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAs we debate in this Parliament the issues of water quality, all of us know that riparian planting is an important part of it. We know that in 2007 the previous provisions of the Income Tax Act made a somewhat arbitrary distinction that if you were doing shelter belt or commercial forestry planting, you could deduct expenditure in the year in which it was incurred, but if you were doing it for nature conservation reasons, you could not. The previous provisions of the Income Tax Act also excluded the capacity to do it for shrubs; you could do it only for forests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI think we should commend this bill to the House for this sensible conservation step, which is consistent with this Government\u2019s view of working in partnership with landowners. We are now going to allow the tax deductibility of investments in shrubs, trees, and riparian strips to deal with the issue of both sediment and nutrients into rivers, which is something I know many members of the House believe that this country needs to do better. Here is the Government taking a sensible step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc108f0cda01430e900f3f22a13fe40a\u0022\u003EStatutes Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6b5f3860bd0404f8349dc90ced25825\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u002272046551662f419197612a91c58dd43e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272046551662f419197612a91c58dd43e\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Statutes Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I would like to extend my thanks to the Government Administration\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022709aabf92792456eafcbdb6c40c6073a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, come on. Stop filibustering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e3605b79cf43a893858a4a601ae783\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: You see, there are all these things\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e10a01beb5943cea336486b8302e8d5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s got you, Chester. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad44d9ec7bb448afa1a326a2e4b94523\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it has not, but I am conflicted with what I can say and what I really need to say and what I really want to say. I would like to extend my thanks to the Government Administration Committee for its thorough and careful consideration of the bill. The bill contains 169 clauses and amends 33 different Acts. It contains minor technical amendments to Acts ranging from the Accident Compensation Act 2001 to the Wine Act 2003, which the member will be pleased to note, and many more in between. The bill is a good example of parliamentary parties working together. The committee carefully considered the seven submissions that were received and advice from officials, and has recommended a number of amendments to the bill. The most significant recommendation is to divide the bill so that all of Part 27 is split off into a separate Unit Titles Amendment Bill. I move\u2014sorry, what do I do? I move the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00222719a787117c4dea985f8eaf06ab2176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222719a787117c4dea985f8eaf06ab2176\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You are fine, Mr Borrows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226d1bc8971d8b43dc91c47d1f1a4ac3e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d1bc8971d8b43dc91c47d1f1a4ac3e2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to endorse the sentiments of the Associate Minister of Justice moving the Statutes Amendment Bill, if not his bumbling approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002281b7033389cb446ab64db67b074610a4\u0022\u003EUnit Titles Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222929ae4ad01b4bfbbc9e276873b9ecaa\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u002276703e1edaad4d74a8bb6c33d5c90c59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276703e1edaad4d74a8bb6c33d5c90c59\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Unit Titles Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I will apply my affable, if bumbling, approach to this reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe Government Administration Committee considered that the amendments to the Unit Titles Act 2010 proposed in Part 27 of the Statutes Amendment Bill be introduced. They are minor and technical, but as there are so many of them\u201421 in total\u2014it was considered more appropriate for them to be considered as a separate bill by the committee, so it recommended that course of action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe Unit Titles Act 2010 has been in force since June 2011. Its purpose is to allow bodies corporate that comprise all unit owners in a development to operate and manage unit title developments, and the Act provides guidance to bodies corporate and unit owners to assist them in managing their property. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c33c0751c2be4bc6aec4f79501b59127\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c33c0751c2be4bc6aec4f79501b59127\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Government made somewhat of an error in putting these amendments into a Statutes Amendment Bill. The tradition is that there are generally only two or three amendments to any particular piece of legislation in a Statutes Amendment Bill and that they be minor. I think that most members are aware that any member can object to a clause of a Statutes Amendment Bill, and it was indicated that these amendments would be objected to if they continued as part of the Statutes Amendment Bill. Therefore, they were split out and became the Unit Titles Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI will take the opportunity, though, to say that there were some very good submissions at the Government Administration Committee on issues other than those that are to do with the Unit Titles Act and its needs for revision, other than those that came as part of that Statutes Amendment Bill. What I would like to do is urge the Government to get on with its promised review, to get the legislation into the House, and therefore to get that legislation tidied up so that it does, in fact, work. We have nothing more to say about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc97ef56042a4e43a64dff9aba6bd6a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc97ef56042a4e43a64dff9aba6bd6a1\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a very short call on the Unit Titles Amendment Bill. This issue has been around for about 10 years or so. We have people buying units and many people do not know what they are getting into. Overseas when somebody buys a unit they can also add the body corporate deferred fund. It has, certainly, a great measure on the cost of the units. In New Zealand, for too many years we have had people actually going in blind into bodies corporate, not understanding that the body corporate is simply a collection of owners. But very few bodies corporate in New Zealand actually put money into a sinking fund for deferred maintenance. So for me it is pleasing to look at this and see that measures are in this bill to correct those issues and to help owners going into unit titles. I said I would take just a short call. I would like to say that I support this bill. As it is, I think it is a good bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 11.18 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013071099cae3e9b4054b7ca1b48a23aa2d667b000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"