"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002261b4dadc8c044f63bbc2cbd5c595a3e0\u0022\u003ETuesday, 27 August 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f92f1251343454bae6a09451322b4ef\u0022\u003ETuesday, 27 August 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022710d3286f53047e6a00bf46adcb8cecc\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f7f84bc0bb742a6af373d2754e299d9\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246250776090f436f8ee42e5f3471487d\u0022\u003EEconomic Programme\u2014Progress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00227e270aa5ec6e4df287605cd66c313841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e270aa5ec6e4df287605cd66c313841\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What progress is the Government making in building a more competitive and productive economy and how is this helping New Zealand families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00225e385819c70142e08f200122d06d9216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e385819c70142e08f200122d06d9216\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E We are making good progress on building a productive and competitive economy. Confidence among households and businesses is improving, exports and jobs are growing, and this is helping New Zealand families get ahead. Despite the impact of the drought earlier this year, the economy grew 2.4 percent in the 12 months to March, and almost all forecasts show New Zealand on track for 2 to 3 percent growth over the next few years. This helps all those who have jobs to be more confident that their jobs are secure. And for those who are looking for jobs, they can be more confident that there will be opportunities for them. This is good news for New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be0fa0fc945e4bfaa2e3de3437843e2d\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: According to the latest economic data, what are some of the benefits being delivered to families from the improving economic outlook?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af3cf1f346604078b31e4cb3c9e857d2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: First, it is important to acknowledge that the circumstances of every single family are different, and, of course, the economy remains challenging for a number of families, but there are some helpful indicators. The annual increase in the cost of living is the lowest in 14 years. Floating home mortgage interest rates are the lowest in almost 50 years, although there is an expectation that they will start increasing over the next 12 months. There are around 46,000 more jobs in the economy than 6 months ago. On average, in the past 2 years wages have been rising faster than the cost of living. This, of course, gives families a bit more headroom to continue doing what they are doing, and that is get on top of their debt and realise some of their aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a3eea68e7e40c8a3dd072f98fc3f58\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: What measures has the Government taken to support lower and middle income families during the past 4\u00BD years, particularly through a fairer tax and income support system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220560d1d6e4fe4179aed6dfaaebaa6007\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Despite the recession and the fact that the Government has had significant deficits, we have made supporting lower and middle income New Zealanders a priority. We have maintained large Government support programmes, such as Working for Families, paid parental leave, accommodation subsidies, and interest-free student loans. Over the past two Budgets we have invested more than $470 million to support more New Zealanders out of welfare. Households earning under $60,000 a year\u2014which is half of all households\u2014will pay around $2.7 billion of income tax, but they will receive more than $8.1 billion in income support, which means that households earning under $60,000 a year are large net recipients of income support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a83428089920452b84aebcfa4cc5964d\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: How is the New Zealand economy performing compared with other developed countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356e6334976e46458419fb4f3a4804e1\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Recently, the Reserve Bank Governor noted that New Zealand would be one of the fastest-growing developed economies in the world, which I thought was probably a bit optimistic, so we went to check. New Zealand\u2019s 2.4 percent growth in the year to March compares favourably with the US, which grew 1.8 percent, Canada 1.4 percent, Japan 0.2 percent, and the UK 0.6 percent. The euro area contracted by 1.1 percent. Australia grew 2.5 percent in the year to March. So, for many families, New Zealand is the best place in the developed world to be if they want job security and the opportunity for a higher income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8b372f9bc0349e6932c97aa92884482\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00223c2008fbb43845fca26049e60754e01e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c2008fbb43845fca26049e60754e01e\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b1d48e6f7d74c99bd42c091912b940b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Dr Russel Norman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e8a4325bff41b197203511f2b79d0e\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN\u003C/span\u003E: My question is to the Prime Minister and asks, does he stand by\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6f0d59b791743d18936a0ce2acfa038\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6f0d59b791743d18936a0ce2acfa038\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am sorry, but the level of interjection coming from all corners of the House is too much. Would the member please start his question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00229bb8c31231644d8f83a83cf4b4d27a04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bb8c31231644d8f83a83cf4b4d27a04\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements relating to Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00228799aba1296143b0b53cf2fc7eba7bd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228799aba1296143b0b53cf2fc7eba7bd0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed9b23a8e1044309cd04c8b44984225\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders believe his statements that the asset sales would not cost more than 2 percent of the sale proceeds, or should they believe Treasury figures that show that the cost of selling Mighty River Power was twice that much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e0f890a36641998c5928b13d3085d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223501e11ba834cb78080ba7aad315411\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders believe his statement on Campbell Live that under his new law the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) would not have access to the content of New Zealanders\u2019 communications, or should they believe his subsequent statements that the GCSB would be able to read their emails?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a494d09cf5944549b040103115b03cf4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb2593e7bd5425e9003802e58a29971\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders believe his statement that the Auditor-General\u2019s investigation of the Skycity deal vindicated his Government, or should they believe the Auditor-General herself, who said that the process was neither transparent nor even-handed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d7da58f023492fa2916fefe891540c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb896e5bdec044079eb3539365bf5b24\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders believe his statement that the Henry inquiry had Ministers\u2019 permission to examine their email records, or should they believe Judith Collins\u2019 statement at the Privileges Committee that the Henry inquiry did not have permission to read her emails?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2e71e4323b41cca34b14b420645969\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2e231c969634dd2975c20b947ec3e25\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders believe his statement that he will not confirm whether the GCSB receives funding from the US Government, or should they believe this cable from the US Embassy showing that the National Security Agency has funded a position within the GCSB?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb8d7e8e4209483eba8cb40e188a5c61\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f7edead642b4f2fbaf848a86d130089\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given those answers, in all their fulsomeness, why does he think that the credibility of his statements has fallen to a point where according to the latest polls only 23 percent of New Zealanders believe that he tells the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241bc96726cc44e93be9947b7df550ede\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022856292d32e2b47628ea784635e05f964\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does it concern him that fewer than one in four New Zealanders believe that what their Prime Minister tells them is the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277fe64cdba6d466b849ff2d690b62d79\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member is wrong in his assertion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224faa966a5fdd4c7799c1b5b14f15916d\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister said it has been \u201Cfun\u201D fighting red zone landowners in court over compensation after an earthquake, does he think it has been fun for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113a0d37aa124d66b03a9e988d33d7cb\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a63054589da439cbbc22e22f37ffb2f\u0022\u003EUnemployment\u2014Current Rate and International Comparisons\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00223664c8ae75484cba9fccf47fbb1f2992\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223664c8ae75484cba9fccf47fbb1f2992\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Is he satisfied with the performance of his Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment, and are there any areas of his performance that need to improve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5851c118d004a09bf6e704e7d63a839\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5851c118d004a09bf6e704e7d63a839\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I say to contestant No. 1, yes\u2014and I can see why the member is concerned about employment, because all he has been thinking about for the last 20 months is his own employment opportunities, which is why he stabbed his\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9b19e6f30ec4650b96dc24382482c3a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226c035acd8be42d887287ae4edc3b914\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There were two parts to that question. The Prime Minister answered the first one but he did not answer the second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0420168b52e40c38ac29aaeed5598d0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion, if the Prime Minister could address the second part of the primary question\u2014are there any areas that require improving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c5566fe63364f78bbd2f76460586c0f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the Minister himself would say he is not perfection but he is pretty close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022173e9acb40ea42b498efee48bef43f07\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, could the Prime Minister tell the House, according to the latest household labour force survey, how many New Zealanders are unemployed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296150b9b58714668beb05ab61ebadcbd\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: On the numbers I have in front of me, 153,000 according to the household labour force survey. That is 65,000 fewer, because in the last 2 years employment has gone up. What we know is that labour markets are very fluid. Last week one person lost his job; now there are three people looking for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9b1b7a1fb664a51859ae31df11201e5\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he satisfied that 153,000 New Zealanders are unemployed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a508f55f96141b6a1fef75a0544d260\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: To be precise, it is 153,001, because one got sacked last week by the Labour caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229efb113cf57d4c67bf7236089ff0139c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the Prime Minister now please address the question that was asked, which is whether he is satisfied with 153,000 unemployed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226010f4720fbf4c4aadd0e5482116b40c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, but what I can say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220389ed15c4f54adcae23cf3b3364f78c\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: So what are you doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022407ba9a8825b4db0b80b4c6789cd0716\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Government is doing a long list of things, and actually it would be very interesting if we could go through contestant Nos 1, 2, and 3 and see which ones support these. This is a Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b35efb1f971149ec91328bbfd1c857d7\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker. If he is deciding what to answer, I may as well ask another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241fac5768cfb4871b86201339c986d48\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The House needs to settle down. The Prime Minister did answer it very directly and said no, he is not satisfied, but then the member himself interjected and said \u201CSo what are you doing about it?\u201D, so he gave the Prime Minister a perfect chance to continue his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568b317caf304a628a0e89884f3922e0\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister know where New Zealand ranks in terms of unemployment in the OECD, and if he does not know, does he think it is higher or lower than it was at the same time in 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8bdd1112b5c4791921dc47cd5329458\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised it is 11th. I am also advised that this is a Government that is moving up the OECD rankings. This is a Government that has had 65,000 more people in work in the last couple of years. But what is absolutely fascinating about this question is that this is the member, contestant No. 1, who has had this responsibility for 21 months\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8e7ccdd0e04535aafa7ca862a85614\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the Prime Minister has no ministerial responsibility for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647262b9ed9c48c8874756bbac063530\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: To enlighten the Prime Minister, I seek leave to table figures from the OECD that show that New Zealand ranked sixth in terms of unemployment in 2008 and 12th in 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c321d12103434625bdebc71efddedcca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa96737225547f0b1cd60e3d5c6f07d\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Prime Minister telling New Zealanders that they should be satisfied that after 5 years of his Government, 153,000 New Zealanders are out of work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be5ded9302b42b6afe4f02c74b12f8a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, New Zealand relative to the rest of the world is doing pretty well. There have been 65,000 jobs created in the last couple of years. There has been a global financial crisis that we have had to go through. Our unemployment rate over time is tracking down while the rest of the world is tracking up. But on this side of the House we want to do things to create employment, so let us go through the three contestants and see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd439b3276104e31ad1acf23d18c3b1f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is no need for that in this answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f85dfbd3ded143c29e77105235f105ec\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table figures from the household labour force survey that show\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a6063d78a940f0a281cad4825057c2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Such figures are freely available to all members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19c69515e07428daf169445e6fb372d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They should be chucked out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b78df4cead4477b5d80956d8c438ba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not intend to at this stage, but if I see those signs raised by any particular member again, then I will be asking that member to leave the Chamber for the balance of question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1094ce8f2f94b9a983c4bf793a73450\u0022\u003EStudent Achievement\u2014Funding and Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb304cd9af884c55a380f449a48f12f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb304cd9af884c55a380f449a48f12f8\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has she made about investment in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a802d112bc59469e94a610507b07d5dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a802d112bc59469e94a610507b07d5dd\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday we announced a $27 million investment in education initiatives targeted to the children and young people who are falling behind. Thanks to the data-rich environment that our Government has championed, including national standards, we know more precisely what needs to be done, where and with whom\u2014schools and parents. The initiatives include $5 million to Building on Success, which uses the most effective elements to help secondary school M\u0101ori students; $1 million to boost Pasifika success in National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA); $3 million to support new entrants develop literacy and numeracy skills; $3 million to partner with 100 schools to increase NCEA level 2 achievement; and $1.75 million to support teen parents in mainstream schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229755a9baa888447083c3b56485828213\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister expect to achieve with this investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229691832d84a54daab7d0f809fd2f945a\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I expect better outcomes for more kids. I expect better support for the teachers in schools that make this happen, and I expect more parents, wh\u0101nau, and aiga to participate in their children\u2019s learning and to support their schools to be successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b22addb2b6dd491aae6249dc1f5886ae\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Mr Speaker. What data-rich\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022115b616c47ca49a6be79119eb89347c4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not the member\u2019s fault at all. The microphone was not on when she started. Would she like to start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a4a66d7c757480aa1dd67d385531cbd\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: What data-rich reports, if any, has she seen that convinced her that to reallocate funds to the untested Building on Success programme was a better investment than the Te Kotahitanga programme, which has now been cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7713850ccf45ee8f30a29d216ac04f\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: We convened the designers of Te Kotahitanga, as well as He K\u0101kano, as well as Starpath, as well as Gateway, because we are constantly focusing on how we improve. Te Kotahitanga was to have closed at the end of last year. It has helped nearly 49 schools over the 12 years it has been in place. It has been successful for some, but not for all. We want it to be successful for all. So working with its designers, we have taken the best elements and we are now looking at a targeted but differentiated approach, and we expect 100 schools to be involved in this programme each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aecabf668464130b4325e9591752e48\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I seek your clarification. Was the answer that no reports had been seen by the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9ab03801654e67a89df244bdec6c96\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not a point of order at all. If the member wants to further debate it, she has the opportunity\u2014if she does not today, she has another opportunity perhaps later in the week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d1ae70f3e84485eb54ca7dbdd74d05e\u0022\u003ERegional Economies\u2014Development, Investment, and Performance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb63f69d8d18487192de9f2cf546bca4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb63f69d8d18487192de9f2cf546bca4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f2a1f0c3b1431ca5f4432ff764b4f1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f42ad1c7ae2642e7b9b93bcbc5e53fb0\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: That is enough, Gerry. This is the humpty, not dumpty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeffc9b92c344651a8fec69437e44171\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! It would be somewhat unusual if the Leader of the House was the one who was ejected from the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224c516a3dd0af4fc2aa9a5aa1cd23465d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c516a3dd0af4fc2aa9a5aa1cd23465d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he stand by his statement \u201CThe New Zealand economy is, of course, the sum of its regional economies and that is why the Government is placing huge emphasis on assisting each region\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002268faeba8a0e54e1f9d01225672656f6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268faeba8a0e54e1f9d01225672656f6d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E I thank contender No. 2 for his question, and welcome him to the contest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71a5114dbba4a6b93d56e51aea6fe1f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! My patience will run out very quickly with National members unless they simply answer the question that they have been asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1244fe79a54375b322c387fc54a94e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. In the 19 or so months I have spent as Minister for Economic Development I have travelled around and to nearly every region in New Zealand, many of them twice, three, or more times. Everywhere I go I meet talented, hard-working business people, entrepreneurs, and their staff who are investing, competing in, and growing jobs to the benefit of families right across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55a5a54852c44c09d4c587c47a3139e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How does further concentration of Government services out of the provinces and into main centres like Wellington actually help the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dee627b1aef47fbb683a2118a4e8bc0\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, I disagree that that is occurring. In fact, a member just to his left is probably complaining about not enough public servant jobs in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222566b75e54334ea980fc16883196c330\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he think it is right to prefer the wealthy property-owning gentry in Auckland while so many in the regions and South Auckland are suffering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229094f33731b545a1aa94f3f6ae3162b4\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the member has some concerns, obviously, on that matter, and he probably thinks some suburbs like Herne Bay get a greater than their fair share of attention, but, actually, we are focused right across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a52f8b944cec4f6496b17856f25f6bdb\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Was it his objective to cause decline and stagnation in the regions or was it just his incompetence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e2c7e0abb6f45d6a494c57701601bfb\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Dear oh dear. The member obviously has not done his work. Many of the regions have been growing very strongly, for example, Taranaki, where the member, I think, made a fleeting visit not so long ago in favour of oil and gas. Of course, he is not brave enough to say it anywhere else. Also, of course, Southland has done well, Canterbury has been doing very well, in fact the whole South Island has been doing well, and Waikato is doing well. So, actually, the regions are leading the recovery in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e504b1b65df4cf2aac0b973efc3d708\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that there are significant benefits for regional economies stemming from the mining, extraction, and petroleum industries, and that the benefits from these industries should be shared with the region in which that activity is based?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb401d5adaf4d57bb0ba46636ef27a3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, firstly, of course I do see that, and along with any number of industries. Actually, they are shared with those regions. If you take Taranaki, for example, it has the highest level of average income in New Zealand bar no region, and when you deduct its housing costs it is the most affluent region for New Zealanders because of its oil and gas, alongside its other industries. My view is that we should encourage these industries right across New Zealand so that we can see investment for growth and jobs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714055489c3c4cdb9fb07f7403247ade\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Where are the jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022536a403b9f4142abbd1c2b0fd41f47bc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Be quiet, parrot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b6496c776d9424096def9e2da191b93\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has the Minister\u2019s five-member advisory group to assist in the implementation of the recently adopted M\u0101ori economic development strategy and action plan, He Kai Kei Aku Ringa\u2014The Crown-M\u0101ori Economic Growth Partnership, made or is it simply another failed talkfest, like the Minister\u2019s fabled regulatory impact analysis report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225269bfee9772495283f6377ff99f9994\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member may be pleased to know that that panel has been meeting and advising Ministers and the agencies in terms of economic development. There is a lot of work going on in that area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228266da5c56674d6ea24a34dd1486d621\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Too much hui, no doey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613219dc08e742cb81a487f1e8903151\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, listen Shane, you might learn something, because plainly you do not know anything, from the questions that you have asked today. So fundamentally the reality of it is that we are focused on a whole range of things: improving the productivity of M\u0101ori land, improving the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act, working with aquaculture, working in the fishing industry with M\u0101ori, and of course in science, so right across the M\u0101ori economy. I should add education and skills as well. Again, if the member would like to know something about it he could possibly drop me line and I will take him through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bfe460ca4ac4e39aebdf9f85dceb8b7\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that New Zealand First\u2019s royalties for regions policy, which would see 25 percent of royalties collected by the Government from our mining extraction and petroleum industries staying in the regions where these industries are located, would be positive for regional economic development; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961fb3b8ce3e43f9b921d3519d97c0d9\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, what occurs is that, in fact, the whole range of Government investment goes into individual regions and, in fact, again, Taranaki benefits from that but also so do all the other regions. If you look across Government expenditure in each individual region, actually, everybody gets a pretty fair shake of it. I do not think that just a gimmick, where you would take 25 percent of the royalties and put it into a particular area, would make any difference. The main thing is to encourage the growth in jobs. Again, I would point to the member and encourage him, and say yep, I agree with him\u2014get out and encourage those opportunities, because it is quite obvious that the Labour Party and the Greens will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be58f1c440964f68a142c1916c31d5e5\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that under New Zealand First\u2019s 25 percent royalties for regions policy, $96 million of the $383 million of royalties collected in the year 2011 by the Government would have remained in the regions and would have helped regenerate regional New Zealand by both expanding job opportunities and supporting local infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022651436d7ecfa4aadbbf346ca2ea9b544\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The member obviously did not listen to the last answer, which was that we actually do invest in every region according to the sorts of things that they need in those regions. So if you take, for example, a region like Taranaki, which is one of the ones that the member talks about in terms of oil and gas, investing hugely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdf4dd2087e48029fcebfced3620efd\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Sorry, the question was, was he aware that $96 million would have stayed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208eb6dc0487944049a9e5ab4c3ee8072\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am certainly aware of\u2014[Interruption] Order! I am aware of the question and I am aware that the Minister is aware of the question. He was attempting to answer it. If the member does not want the answer any more, we will move on to the next question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209c7b9e697b44d01998eae9823387d76\u0022\u003EFishing, Recreational\u2014Economic Impact\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7521309a2324432a0ea2fed1c26cd24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7521309a2324432a0ea2fed1c26cd24\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (Independent)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Primary Industries: What is the best estimate he or his Ministry have, if any, of the economic value of recreational fishing including direct and indirect employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00228f16a608afa0438fb142f867a01c53ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f16a608afa0438fb142f867a01c53ce\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries):\u003C/span\u003E The value of recreational fishing in New Zealand\u2019s top five recreational species\u2014snapper, rock lobster, kingfish, kahawai, and blue cod\u2014is $342 million. Of course, there are 638 fish stocks throughout New Zealand and it would be almost impossible to calculate the total value of these or the total jobs created by the recreational sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c35b2c127d6402a890075b7c82e3f2e\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: As he has withheld this information during the consultation period and admitted that he has not consulted with iwi, and he has no idea whom his officials have consulted, how does he expect the New Zealand public to have any faith that he will come to a fair, transparent, informed, and considered decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b702f38f5c4ffab1a8c23ec37f944b\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that my officials have consulted with iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518ae30196f540daac82a60b179d3a34\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the statement that nearly a third of us have gone fishing or have gathered shellfish in the last 12 months, and that recreational fishers go fishing an average of nine times a year, as said by his predecessor, the Hon Phil Heatley, in a speech to the New Zealand Recreational Fishing Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022285e401e14b841049856ac37c9396848\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I do agree that recreational fishing is hugely important to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e438dc9f796e413fbeb9e4f9f27cdfa5\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a41049d53cb474e92b50a2fb0e6f75b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise. I have a point of order and it will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9dbe90748e24c70917c28a6bdcb0d12\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: My question was quite specific in asking whether he agreed that nearly a third of New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c095c5fe164c403e92d16ad7442e338f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Minister very adequately addressed that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022883b4bef9203475fbcee0d6a80def3de\u0022\u003EMinisters\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4963b594ec44cfc82a3b85355e7bcc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4963b594ec44cfc82a3b85355e7bcc8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption] Give them a vote, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00220ed2410d5b024b2494a8dd4da5df01ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ed2410d5b024b2494a8dd4da5df01ec\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not within my powers to give them a vote, Mr Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00222b9c1be6f9d84131bf1cf9d1a58a52ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b9c1be6f9d84131bf1cf9d1a58a52ba\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he have confidence in all his Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022710983769cb94f07a486edf6db9d6c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022710983769cb94f07a486edf6db9d6c76\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, about as much confidence as he had in his portrait artist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d864a39a3626465385b46d193dde68db\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Good start, Prime Minister. Why does he have confidence in his Minister for Primary Industries, who failed to consult either Cabinet or him before proposing snapper quota changes, and what will be the consequences for that Minister for breaching the Cabinet Manual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ce76ce67742402596a52099bf73c854\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Far be it from me to give advice, but the last leader of the Labour Party who spoke about snapper was holding them up, and he has gone as well, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bf5fbf4a5ab4fc28eac73c23130b4c8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Just address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e576acc201461abf8e73b21a36495c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK, no problems\u2014just offering some free consultancy services to the interested parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223971971f37a144e3b05cd7eb1a54723e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not interested in the free consultancy services, though I thank the Prime Minister. Would he now address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7bc42f4a10f4aaa9e4651fdf46cd958\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Cabinet Manual, as Helen Clark once famously said, is a guide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d2a4289128445cbf74406c71b2de84\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he have confidence in his Minister of Labour\u2019s plans for unfair workplace laws, which even Treasury warns would lead to lower wages, when 44 percent of New Zealanders have not had a pay rise in the last year anyway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4be23bcc2642f68d567a58cb97df60\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Good question, given the unions have such a big vote. Nice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d43ce2de7a044d2b71c7cce7997e20e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Now address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f688ad1e804ed7a8c199027237fcb9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, this is just too much fun. I have forgotten the question\u2014something to do with labour. We do promote safe workplaces, and that is why the Minister is actually guiding a new health and safety workplace bill through Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae5ea2a849b3497ca1ae85d04904a67b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: To continue the comedy feel, why does the Prime Minister have confidence in his Minister of Justice, Judith Collins, when she said that the Henry inquiry was \u201Cchilling\u201D and treated the privacy of Ministers in a contemptuous way, directly contradicting his statement that anyone who objected to the inquiry\u2019s \u201Cbasic\u201D intrusions \u201Cwouldn\u2019t make it as a Minister\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f8f8c127d7b48898e345be57f6b7cbc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: She was clearly offering a view, and, as I said at the time, she is entitled to a view. But in the end I put out the terms of reference. Every Minister was able to object to those if they wanted to. None of them did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b25a2eb5333741e88d2b477d3e2443a6\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have confidence in any Minister who does not keep his word to the New Zealand public\u2014for example, that he would not raise GST before taking office and then raising it after, or describing Working for Families as \u201Ccommunism by stealth\u201D and then retaining it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c10eb837f1d497e80cd671491eb674f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, having an effective marginal tax rate of 100 percent actually is communism by stealth, and that is why this Government actually sold\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ea08adb040451d8820ae83e4413a76\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What have you done about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b307757e6fc6406787b947171fb0ae65\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, funnily enough\u2014interestingly enough, I am glad you asked that question; it is the most sensible question I have had all day. What this Government did was lower the effective marginal tax rates. In fact, if you want to discourage people from being in the labour markets, the very biggest thing you can do is keep raising taxes and raising those effective rates. When you lose 100 percent of every extra dollar you earn, why on earth would people bother trying to earn more money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d179e36c3cb48eba21aad84fc3b68c9\u0022\u003EPay Equity\u2014Employment Court Case\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00226dc30a67b4004dd0aed0f3bac2124ef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dc30a67b4004dd0aed0f3bac2124ef4\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002281f0701705654eddb49642457f83bdce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281f0701705654eddb49642457f83bdce\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226da8ea231bcb46519124ce0ce9c66aa7\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: How can he stand by his statement that equal pay for aged-care workers is \u201Cone of those things we\u2019d love to do if we had more cash\u201D, when the Employment Court ruling in the case of Kristine Bartlett now means that the Government\u2019s reliance on paying women poorly to subsidise aged care may no longer be a matter of just love but a matter of law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d475640006bd41bc93df2c8da7753b9a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with the particular case, if the member is talking about the one that is now before the courts. But what I can say is that I stand by the original statement. It is something we would like to do if we had more money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9c54a1ee49427fa7ac079419daa37f\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: What preparations is the Government making to respond to equal pay claims based on the 1972 Equal Pay Act, following the Employment Court\u2019s decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5ebbc60e04b4fdd86e9ade31d726cd9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The matter is before the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90985641cb240b380d47ff678b45f5b\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: Who does he think should bear the $140 million a year cost to settle these claims\u2014some of the lowest-paid women workers in the country, as at present; the elderly; or the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce074a09c98041f9bc6c6994e0fa894c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is not possible for the earlier two to actually settle that particular case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247dda3290a314a4c8027e9f8b7b32cbc\u0022\u003ECrime Prevention\u2014Drivers of Crime Programme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00227795494013f043239aafd2a25987bfa0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227795494013f043239aafd2a25987bfa0\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What recent reports has she received on progress with the Drivers of Crime programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd9adeee94644eea9429d2027ef142a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd9adeee94644eea9429d2027ef142a5\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Last week the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and I released a report showing that this Government is making real progress on addressing the underlying causes of crime. The Drivers of Crime programme was launched in December 2009 to coordinate efforts across agencies to address complex, longstanding problems, with an emphasis on reducing M\u0101ori offending and victimisation. The latest reports show that offending rates for M\u0101ori youth between 2008 and 2012 are down 32 percent. This is an outstanding result and shows this Government\u2019s commitment to reducing crime and improving support for victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238486499977046c682825b2ae1691fbf\u0022\u003EScott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the key Drivers of Crime results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286d09f5a4d824941b4bca1833f88ed21\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: We have launched two alcohol and other drug treatment courts in the Auckland region, with a Government investment of $10 million. Preventable hospitalisations for M\u0101ori and Pasifika children under 5 from the most deprived areas are down 22 percent and 17 percent respectively. More M\u0101ori children from the poorest neighbourhoods are now attending early childhood education and significantly more M\u0101ori and Pasifika children are achieving at least National Certificate of Educational Achievement level 2, compared with 2005 rates. The Incredible Years and Triple P foster parenting programmes have both been expanded through health and education and additional funding provided for restorative justice services. These are all key initiatives that are producing positive results in the fight against crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276680e8cc12348158158799aeea2e853\u0022\u003EHousing, Affordable\u2014First-home Buyers, Mortgages, and Reserve Bank Intervention\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022320065e059d04c5191460b1fdf4b268b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022320065e059d04c5191460b1fdf4b268b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that \u201Cfirst-home buyers are a priority for the Government\u201D; if so, why are houses more unaffordable for young New Zealanders now than six months ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00224630ceb2367b4ba8863e791847c44f85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224630ceb2367b4ba8863e791847c44f85\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement. That is why the Government announced some changes to the KiwiSaver first-home deposit subsidy and Welcome Home Loans, to ensure that, within the restrictions imposed by the Reserve Bank, first-home buyers can get their foot in the door. Secondly, we are working hard to ensure that there will be more houses built more quickly so that pressure will come off the housing market and so that first-home buyers, like any other New Zealander who wants to buy a house, will be dealing with a more affordable market. We look forward to the Opposition supporting the Government\u2019s legislation on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db36f25d28194a3f907be2279cc5291d\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why, after he said that restrictions on high loan-to-value lending would avoid interest rate rises, have two major banks, ANZ and BNZ, already increased fixed interest rates for most home buyers, while ASB has begun offering a lower discriminatory rate for borrowers with deposits larger than 20 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209b0c1a595a741bca69e8efcecf5a978\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: You would need to ask the banks about their interest rate policies. The Government has simply repeated the argument that has been made by the Governor of the Reserve Bank that these restrictions may enable some delay until he raises interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a15cc2c8574d388380240205b6e7f1\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that ANZ is now saying \u201COne outcome of [loan-to-value ratio changes] will be more rigorous application of low equity premiums\u201D, or, in other words, interest rate increases for first-home buyers with deposits under 20 percent; if so, who is correct, ANZ or the Minister in his earlier comments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294964a3690e24bbf9a9e8a6dd4aac440\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think there was anything unpredictable about the fact that banks are adopting policies that are more discriminating about which interest rates they charge to which customers. That was part of the consultation the Reserve Bank went through with its loan-to-value ratios, and we will get to see whether the loan-to-value ratio restrictions have some impact on the market or not. The Government, though, is focusing on its policy, which is to improve the flexible supply of housing, particularly in Auckland and Christchurch. In respect of Auckland there is an accord between the Government and the Auckland Council. There is legislation coming through the House, which I hope the Opposition will support. The Auckland Plan should become operative in the next few months, and that will provide the opportunity for a more significant expansion of the supply of houses in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a43c8e49b1224ffe989d00b7dffde06a\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: When he said that the steps his Government is taking are good for first-home buyers, did he realise that those steps would lead to almost 80 percent of the first-home buyers with deposits under 20 percent now seeing their homeownership dreams being crushed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb6647508a54e9cba38f07333f6d796\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I disagree with that. Again, the Opposition is aiming to undermine, if not remove, the independence of the Reserve Bank. The Reserve Bank has powers under the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act. It has exercised those powers in respect of the restrictions on high loan-to-value loans, which the Opposition used to be in favour of\u2014in fact, it said that we were old-fashioned because it was not happening. Now it is. Of course, the Government is focusing on increasing the supply of homes to the market. We are still dealing with the legacy of having a booming housing market under the previous Government, when it did nothing about supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235e7d0e463684d26a509f87472c970d5\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Government so determined to protect the advantages of property investors and speculators over everyday New Zealanders, who are being left unable to buy even one home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b36288bef60c4840bd470e04c3dd1833\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I completely disagree with that statement. The Government has, over 2 or 3 years, brought together a range of policies that will increase the supply of houses to the market. That will, I am sure, upset the plans of speculators and investors who are relying on restricted supply and fast-rising prices, and over the next 6 to 12 months we will get to see what difference that will make. But certainly an increase in the supply of housing will make a bigger difference than will the Reserve Bank restrictions on low-deposit loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6beb2d0001548bbaaabe08b0c03bcf0\u0022\u003EHealth Targets\u2014Preventative Care and Elective Surgery\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022 data-id=\u00220265a7ff048945e390215d61feacf471\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220265a7ff048945e390215d61feacf471\u0022\u003ECLAUDETTE HAUITI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What reports has he received on the latest national health target results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002231b54be3a8e74952bb9c2640866c620c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b54be3a8e74952bb9c2640866c620c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The latest quarterly results for 2012-13 show more good news across the three national preventative health targets. Record numbers of New Zealanders have been assessed for heart disease and diabetes in the last 5 years and have received advice on how they can make changes to their lifestyle. More people are getting help to quit smoking. In the last year around 411,000 smokers were offered free help and advice to quit, from hospital and general practice nurses or doctors\u2014an internationally recognised health prevention measure\u2014and more parents are immunising their babies. Ninety percent of 8-month-olds are now fully vaccinated, which is protecting them from childhood diseases like whooping cough and measles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5a99799f5f4576b0de6b141534dc4f\u0022\u003EClaudette Hauiti\u003C/span\u003E: What other progress with national health targets can the Minister report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221493f9d1e1d84b81b443506554d0cfcf\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: We are making really good progress with elective surgery, which relieves pain and restores lifestyle to people, with more than 158,000 discharges provided against the target of 148,000. All patients who were ready for treatment received their radiotherapy and chemo within 4 weeks of the decision to treat. As the member knows, national health targets are a balance of improving access and better prevention, and we are seeing more high-priority front-line services being delivered as a result of an increase of an average of $500 million a year going into health over the last 5 financial years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294ac03dd3781463189158dff056ea1e2\u0022\u003ECanterbury, Recovery\u2014Offer on Red Zone Properties\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b340068ff075434a96a766e62f016add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b340068ff075434a96a766e62f016add\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Prime Minister and asks: does he stand by all his statements? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00220648b53402684feaaefd21eac5519b02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220648b53402684feaaefd21eac5519b02\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The right honourable Prime Minister. [Interruption] Order! I am going to ask the Hon Ruth Dyson to repeat that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002206357d61503b41d08bb26ee2642fb17b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206357d61503b41d08bb26ee2642fb17b\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022307901415d6d42f2b3389e12ccc89eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022307901415d6d42f2b3389e12ccc89eb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and apologies. When you are rudderless over there, question time finishes so early.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e384fe08a614d0a8f899045da249474\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement to Cantabrians who think the Government\u2019s offer of 50 percent of rateable value for red zone commercial property and bare land is unfair that \u201COne option is the Government says \u2018thanks very much. It\u2019s been a lot of fun. If you don\u2019t want to take the offer, that\u2019s where it\u2019s at\u2019.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb95078e8814f54bbfc5e84fdd68769\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: An option is that the Government says it has put its best offer on the table, yes, but the matter is before the courts on appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212ac6072deb544aba0f71f1b0be08818\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How is it fun or fair that red zone property owners with a partly constructed home are being offered the 100 percent rateable value Government offer while those who have not begun their construction are being offered 50 percent, yet neither have land insurance; how is that fun or fair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b53a2f49dad484a893cf63c363bb9b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The question is whether it is fair, and the Government\u2019s view is that these are properties that do not have insurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e756e5586a9c434f90d1d53d342bbb81\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that the red zone offer, an offer described by Justice Panckhurst in the Christchurch High Court yesterday as being \u201Cnot made according to law\u201D, is generous and fair; if so, how can he explain that losing half the value of your land is generous and fair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4962dc2334d456ea8caa786a1b97446\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Under the circumstances and considering precedent, yes, those are properties that do not have insurance, and for some of those people it will be above what they have paid for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221628647696024cb5a72379444c9f9ef0\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Did he rethink any of his statements when the Valuer-General stated publicly that there had been no formal analysis of the value of bare land in Canterbury, contradicting the written word of Minister Gerry Brownlee, who said in the Cabinet paper on this issue that the Valuer-General had said that the land was worth only 10 percent of the rateable value?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260c0fc26102045ecb96910b9de382027\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that that position was offered by officials. But what I can say is that in the end, yes, everyone accepts that this is a very challenging and difficult set of circumstances, but there is a situation where these properties are uninsured. There are many New Zealanders who lose 100 percent of everything they have through no fault of their own because they do not have insurance. That is why the Government is taking the extraordinary step of offering them 50 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e067a24260cc4f0b983b86b50a8c8a6e\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government lodged an appeal against the decision of Justice Graham Panckhurst announced yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7d37ec546d4e6ab388d4aa3b6b1b50\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Not yet, but the Government is intending to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9ba47bab4df4c4c9585422361b8b0bc\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by all of his statements in relation to the Henry inquiry; if so, can he confirm that neither he nor anyone in his office indicated that the head of the Parliamentary Service, Geoff Thorn, should consider resigning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb57c6544a714dc3b0a8860eb9712a35\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by my statements, and the matter is before the Privileges Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226fb9e4fa08a74009a4e09801b0106e6a\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c4f67186947489386db40d53c38ed90\u0022\u003ECanterbury, Recovery\u2014Offer on Red Zone Properties\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1966a6e2ac94e9794c63028a199eb6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1966a6e2ac94e9794c63028a199eb6a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from the Hon Ruth Dyson seeking to debate the recent decision of the High Court on the Government\u2019s offer to buy red zone land from owners as it applied to vacant land and uninsured properties in Canterbury. For there to be an urgent debate, there must be administrative or ministerial responsibility for a case of recent occurrence. The member, in her application, cites the judgment of the High Court issued on 26 August as the particular case of recent occurrence. An urgent debate is a way of holding the Government accountable for an action for which it is responsible. There must be a distinct governmental responsibility for the particular case that is sought for debate. A decision of the High Court is not a matter for which any Minister has responsibility. The application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022153c72656b334bd6acfa9a028e50212e\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbb60fb4b29946a08f018f8998dbb695\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223fd1931f8eba46518729e4035888dc4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fd1931f8eba46518729e4035888dc4d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb49f5fee3cb40e0b4f8334a801d577f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc4ffed1e63c44d49b9d7bb5e90ed139\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I do apologise and I appreciate the barbs across the House. But let me tell you that if I were Shane Jones, I would not be self-styling myself as \u201CHumpty\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI move, That urgency be accorded the Committee stage and third reading of the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill, the Resource Management Reform Bill, the Bail Amendment Bill, the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill, the Patents Bill, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, and any bills into which they may be divided; the first reading and referral to a select committee of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3), the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill, the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill, the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill, the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill; and the second reading of the Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga Bill and the Victims of Crime Reform Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAll of these bills are currently on the Order Paper, and they are bills that have got a certain amount of time on them. As I have explained many times to the House before, time in the legislative environment is relatively short. The House sits for only 17 hours a week. By the time you take out a general debate and question time, it comes down to around about 13 hours a week, which does not give us a lot of time to consider legislation. From time to time it will be necessary to take urgency to advance things, and as the shadow Leader of the House pointed out last week, there are a number of select committees that could do with having some more work to get their teeth into. So this is an attempt to move the House forward in a very positive way, with bills making progress and work being sent to the select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f174dd739b354dd8b7c0494cfe726caf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce35368087754ec59ecb618d02e71f6b\u0022\u003EInsurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022080cb446920044a8a3938058552319f3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7f813d65bcd4854869bc267280e8d2b\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d5411f723640fbbf162fffab6ad653\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d5411f723640fbbf162fffab6ad653\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the call on Part 1 of the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. I have one question for the Minister of Finance, and that is to ascertain whether when assessing whether these regulations were necessary, consideration was given to the trade-off between greater satisfaction with prudential margins and the cost of insurance. That is an issue that I raised in an earlier contribution, and I have not yet had a reply from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f829d642f9154739a59c56a342ea2574\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002281e5868320204bc28b4dbe5a342f2ca5\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1ceeb1c83f04d1d93ccc1e310850c1a\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000206\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 333.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000207\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000208\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219cee61557b8493d81a377f8ef10dfc9\u0022\u003EInsurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219cee61557b8493d81a377f8ef10dfc9\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3a058391022469fbdf74a85ec97ff4f\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002277bd81d1935a4645b7d9b41dff5cd3f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277bd81d1935a4645b7d9b41dff5cd3f9\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This is legislation that, essentially, looks at the prudential arrangements for insurers in New Zealand. The Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act of 2010 established a licensing and prudential supervision regime for insurers carrying on insurance business in New Zealand. It replaced existing outdated and disjointed insurance legislation, and aligned New Zealand with international regulatory benchmarks and expectations. This bill represents a significant step forward in terms of delivering comprehensive prudential regulation of insurers carrying on that business in New Zealand. Although the 2010 Act has proven to be generally effective and robust, it is not unexpected that some of the provisions that have been identified as appropriate for reform are considered in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill contain a small number of amendments to the 2010 Act and one consequential amendment to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989. The amendments were identified by the Reserve Bank when reviewing the operation of the Act during the transition period towards full licensing, which expires at the end of September 2013. That is a short time away, and one of the reasons why we need to get the bills through for Royal assent as quickly as possible. The bills aim to reduce or eliminate unnecessary compliance costs and address technical issues identified during the provisional licensing to ensure a smooth transition to full licensing of insurers. This review has been a useful post-implementation exercise, and the Reserve Bank aims to complete a wider policy review in 5 years. The bills allow for a provisional licence to remain in force at the discretion of the Reserve Bank if particular circumstances apply to an insurer. The provisional licence may remain in force until the Reserve Bank is satisfied that it should be cancelled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe bills also allow for overseas insurers to be permitted on application to, and approval by, the Reserve Bank to provide half-yearly financial reporting based on the home country regulatory reporting requirements. These are important matters, as New Zealand, I am sure, would benefit from more insurers in our local market to augment the large players that currently have such big chunks of our market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E Two other proposals are expected to reduce or eliminate unnecessary compliance costs. The first of these allows the Reserve Bank to accept an insurer that is running off its liabilities from the requirement to have a current financial strength rating. I think you would find that Southern Response in Canterbury fits into that category. The second clarifies that in respect of contracts of insurance that renew more frequently than annually, disclosure in writing on the insurer\u2019s financial strength rating to the policy holder may be made on at least an annual basis rather than at every renewal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill also takes the opportunity to address technical issues\u2014for example, providing a limitation period of 5 years within which the Reserve Bank may file a charging document against an insurer that has committed an offence, to ensure consistency across both bills. The amendment bill also empowers the Reserve Bank to publish and maintain on its website an official register of licensed insurers, with additional content to be determined by regulators. This will result in consequential amendments to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989. I commend the bills for their third readings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c46a64407bb046b48806fd8edd26e99b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c46a64407bb046b48806fd8edd26e99b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party supports the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill. The Minister who has just resumed his seat, Mr Brownlee, is quite right in saying that the Finance and Expenditure Committee thought it was important that provisional licences can be kept for a longer period of time than was originally envisaged, the reason being that if a company gains a provisional licence but cannot convert it into a long-term non-provisional licence because, for example, of insolvency, then it is desirable that there still be a level of oversight by the Reserve Bank that can occur under a provisional licence that could not occur if the insurer was unlicensed. So this helps the Reserve Bank and the Government, through the Reserve Bank, to maintain oversight of insurers in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere is an important outstanding issue in respect of the prudential supervision of insurance companies that is not touched upon by this legislation, and it is a difficult issue for New Zealand to grapple with. Before I sit down I want to just mention the complexities around that issue, and that is whether the prudential standard upon which insurance companies are judged is their ability to meet either a one-in-500-year event or a one-in-1,000-year event. Of course, if the requirement is for them to have a strong enough capital position to meet a one-in-1,000-year event, it effectively means that they have to have a stronger balance sheet. At first blush you can understand why the Reserve Bank might want companies to have a stronger balance sheet in order to meet a one-in-1,000-year event. My understanding is that the Alpine Fault ruptures approximately every 800 years and that would probably be the biggest insurance event that it is possible to contemplate in New Zealand. That is one of the reasons why the Reserve Bank is looking at the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec372bcacdf7427488b50181d8ca115d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What about the Wellington one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dba8db2253ed48b0b99f6f4574282240\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Wellington one would probably go out in sympathy. You know what Wellington is like! The consequences of that would be dire for New Zealand, but that is a different question. Whether we should move the prudential requirement to a one-in-1,000-year event rather than a one-in-500-year event is not the only part of this question, because there are some consequences of that. This has been passed on to me by a number of participants in the insurance industry, and I do not believe that they are talking from a position of self-interest. Indeed, I think that they have New Zealand\u2019s interests at heart in respect of this issue, because they can live with either eventuality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe first consequence is that if there is higher capital requirement for an insurer, it may be that that capital is not available to them. The multinationals that are present in New Zealand compete for capital amongst different parts of the world, so it may well be that they just cannot get the additional capital to put into their New Zealand operation and their parent company chooses, on balance, given our risks in respect of earthquakes and the like, to withdraw from the New Zealand market, rather than bring forward that additional capital to their New Zealand subsidiary. That would mean that we have less competition in insurance in New Zealand and we become more reliant on the remaining insurers, which in itself increases risk in the event of a very big earthquake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second issue is that even if they could get that additional capital in New Zealand to meet a higher prudential ratio to cover a one-in-1,000-year event rather than a one-in-500-year event, the cost of that increased capital would be passed on to the people who buy insurance or buy premiums from those companies. In other words, people\u2019s insurance bills would go up. If people\u2019s insurance bills go up, then some of those people who would otherwise have taken insurance will not take insurance or will take lower levels of cover. So, in terms of the effect on New Zealand\u2019s insurance cover, it could be\u2014I am not saying it would be, but this requires careful analysis\u2014that increasing the capital requirements could actually result in lower levels of insurance in New Zealand. So it could be counter-productive if what we are trying to do is minimise the risk of consequences in New Zealand if there is a really bad earthquake. If we have fewer people insured against different sorts of risk\u2014and it is not just their household cover or their contents cover but things like business interruption insurance; all those other sorts of cover would be affected by these same capital ratios\u2014and we have insurance costs going up, then we could actually have the opposite outcome from that which we intend, even though the Reserve Bank might be thinking that it is improving, from its perspective, the financial stability of the insurance companies. Overall, New Zealand might be worse off because we have lower levels of insurance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe third area where this is relevant concerns the effect on competition with the multinationals. Over the last two or three decades we have seen a concentration of ownership by overseas multinationals of New Zealand\u2019s insurance market. This is also something that has happened in other parts of the financial services sector, like the banking industry. As a consequence of, amongst other things, monetary policy settings and tax settings, New Zealand has been hollowed out when it comes to ownership of our financial services sector. The ability of small New Zealand companies to start up and grow into companies that compete with these overseas companies\u2014who, of course, repatriate profits, as any insurance company would do in that situation\u2014could be inhibited by increasing stringency of capital requirements that make it harder for new entrants to enter into the market and compete. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENone of those issues are dealt with in this legislation arising from the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill, but they are coming at us in respect of an issue as a consequence of the Reserve Bank saying that it is considering whether to increase the prudential requirements from 500 to 1,000 years. I, for one, will take some convincing that the issues I have raised are not more important. The Labour Party supports this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229b301f44b1d64477b42a5bd844075bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b301f44b1d64477b42a5bd844075bd4\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on the third reading of the legislation arising from the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. National is firmly focused on responsibly managing the Government\u2019s finances and building a more competitive and productive economy, and the insurance sector is a very significant part of the economy\u2014a significant cost for households, businesses, and Government as a whole, and those costs have increased significantly in New Zealand as a result of the earthquakes. We cannot do much about that but we can ensure that Government regulation effectively balances the need for supervision of this industry so as to protect policyholders and the community as a whole, and the need to do that in a way that does not add unnecessary costs on to the industry. I think that the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act of 2010 did a generally effective and robust job in balancing those requirements, but it is not unexpected that some provisions have been identified as appropriate for reform\u2014and indeed that is what the point of this legislation is\u2014and I am glad to see that we have widespread support across the House for this legislation. It does not involve significant changes to the existing policy and it is expected to continue to benefit from industry support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ECertain provisions\u2014can I just trespass on the House\u2019s time for a moment\u2014have been identified as being too onerous in the circumstances where policyholders are not expected to gain material benefits or additional protection, even if the insurer complies with their requirements. Those elements have been identified, and this legislation will allow the Reserve Bank to exempt an insurer that is running off its liabilities from the requirement to have a current financial strength rating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EOften there will be limited public benefit for an insurer to hold a financial strength rating where it is required to cease to enter into new contracts of insurance, and for contracts of insurance that renew more frequently than annually, disclosure in writing of the insurer\u2019s financial strength rating to the policyholder should be made on at least an annual basis rather than on every renewal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThose are the sorts of things that this legislation has been working on and it is all about making sure that the insurance industry, which is so important to the health and competitiveness of New Zealand\u2019s economy, is maintaining its strength. On that basis, I commend this legislation to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00228ec1909d15434c6b96480a1aea38827e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ec1909d15434c6b96480a1aea38827e\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do not intend\u2014as National is\u2014filibustering this legislation arising from the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. Labour members intend to facilitate its passage rapidly because we do support it. It does make a number of technical changes, which we support, to the prudential and regulatory framework governing the insurance sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI just want to simply touch on two points. First, I want to reinforce what Mr Parker said in respect of outstanding business in terms of the Reserve Bank contemplating increasing the prudential requirements on the insurance sector from 500 to 1,000 years. Mr Parker made a good point: if that translates to increased cost and increased premium, then despite the Canterbury earthquake you could have a bizarre situation where, yes, prudentially the insurance companies\u2019 requirements are increased, however it is too tough for people to get insurance or the appropriate level of insurance, and pending\u2014God forbid\u2014we have another disaster like Christchurch, we are in a situation of underinsurance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe final thing I want to say is this. Though we support this legislation, as a Canterbury MP I just want to say this to the insurance industry. It is appropriate that we are protected and ensure that that sector has an appropriate regulatory framework. But I bring this message to that insurance sector from the people of Christchurch and other places. There is an expectation when Kiwis who have paid insurance premiums all our lives collectively\u2014and none of us, until the Canterbury earthquakes, really thought that we would ever make a call on that insurance, unless Johnny throws the cricket ball through the window, as it were, or in a minor way\u2014and there is a great almost loathing, to some extent, of that sector and the inability of that sector to pay out appropriately and swiftly and to a high degree of frequency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI accept that the Canterbury earthquakes are an extremely complicated matter. There are a number of strands that have to be resolved, but Mr and Mrs Cantabrian sitting in their munted house 3 years after the event\u2014having paid insurance premiums all their lives, having the insurer ring them up if they are a day late or a week short, or whatever, and making damn sure that they pay\u2014expect that insurance companies will pay up in the appropriate time. In the policies of most people, if not all people, they say words to the effect that insurers should settle in a reasonable period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI note that the Prime Minister of Australia, when he was first Prime Minister and they had the Queensland floods, came over to Christchurch\u2014in fact, Labour members met with him. We asked him whether he was having the same difficulty with insurers that we were having in terms of getting them to write cheques so people could get on with their lives. He said, in effect, yes. We asked him what he did about it and he basically said that he called the insurers into his office, read the Riot Act, and threatened to regulate them if they did not start paying out. They reached, as I understand it, some sort of voluntary time frame\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135ceca51a5f4d79ac5371f7d3768831\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a filibuster when you don\u2019t filibuster?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f76cbf54f0842c5a9f935d62061a724\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I know that this does not affect Mr Hayes\u2014and 12 months later you had new houses being built further up the hill in Queensland outside the flood-prone areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe, today, have people longing to get on with their lives. Charitable organisations in Christchurch, which cannot move along, are now having to spend many of the charitable dollars they ordinarily would not on overheads like rent on buildings because the insurance company, week after week, and year after year, and engineering report after engineering report, will not settle\u2014and likewise with individual Cantabrians and others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI just conclude by saying that it is noteworthy that this legislation looks to protect and enhance the regulatory and prudential framework of the insurance sector. But I say to the insurance sector that many in this Parliament and many New Zealanders around the country demand that they do their bit and that when the chips are down, and people have paid and they need their lives put back together, insurance companies pay out and pay out swiftly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002210d799f0fecb4fde9b82382ff93fd4ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210d799f0fecb4fde9b82382ff93fd4ab\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I rise to speak on the third and last reading of the legislation arising from the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. The Green Party has not supported these changes and it will not be supporting this amending legislation, so I will take just a few minutes to explain why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill makes nine technical changes to the principal legislation, which is the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Act 2010. That Act established a licensing and prudential supervision regime for insurers operating in New Zealand, and the Green Party wholeheartedly supported that Act. There are technical changes proposed in this legislation\u2014I can completely understand the reasons for some of them, but for others we had questions that were not adequately answered during the select committee process. Therefore, we decided that although we can understand that there is some need to ensure that during the transition period there is a smooth transition from provisional licences and there was a need for this particular amending legislation in order to extend the provisional licensing period, we thought it was important to object to the changes on principle. In the wake of the global financial crisis and with the increasing severity and frequency of extreme weather events it is quite clear that all financial services, but particularly insurance, need to be moving in the direction of greater regulation and Government oversight rather than less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAlthough we hear a lot of rhetoric from this Government about cutting red tape and making things easier for businesses, the fact is that we are not talking about New Zealand businesses. A lot of the particular changes in this legislation\u2014one of which is allowing overseas insurers to use accounting rules that apply in their home country for interim financial reporting rather than adhering to New Zealand accounting practices\u2014are not benefiting New Zealand business, and they are not benefiting the New Zealand economy particularly either. We have seen a rationalisation of insurance providers in New Zealand to a few big overseas-owned players, and ultimately the Green Party is very concerned about the risk that this poses to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI understand that with the increased number of severe weather events around the world and problems like earthquakes here in New Zealand, the insurance industry has been under some strain, and we lost one of our own larger New Zealand - owned insurers, AMI, because it was not in as good financial health as it should have been. The problem is that if we do not have strict regulatory oversight then there is an incentive for organisations to cut corners and to cook the books a little bit in order to compete with other larger organisations that also do not have to comply with a strict regulatory regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIn other words, if the Government is not there to set the rules of the game and to enforce those rules and make sure that organisations are doing what they are supposed to be doing, then there is necessarily a race to the bottom because competitive pressures will result in organisations cutting corners and stretching the truth. We have seen so much of that in the past few years, not just in the insurance industry but in the financial sector. There were how many dozen? I think it was something like 70 finance companies that went under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis is not a case for less regulation. What this has demonstrated to us is that these sorts of sectors, financial services sectors, actually need more strict Government oversight. I do not understand how these particular changes are going to facilitate and make it easier for New Zealand companies to start up and provide insurance here in New Zealand and provide greater choice to people in the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIn the past few years, even with the large number of payouts and disastrous events that insurance companies have had to pay for, we have actually seen record profits. Insurance companies have been making record profits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f2b6ad42e14d9dad3e211bfd9c32d9\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Good. They pay record tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225273b2fa8e424171b74b27820265fa18\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah. The question is, why should we be reducing compliance costs, which are actually a necessary part of regulatory oversight, at a time when it is actually New Zealand households and businesses that are going to be vulnerable if the Government does not do its job of being the watchdog in this sector? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will not be supporting the changes because we believe that there is an important role for Government to play in ensuring that the economy runs in an efficient way. The best way it can do that is, actually, by greater regulatory oversight of financial services, and particularly of the insurance industry as that is an industry that has been dominated by a few big overseas players, and it is essentially too big to fail. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2f1ba6f25c94ec6834e5bebb6163fd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2f1ba6f25c94ec6834e5bebb6163fd4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call in the third reading of the legislation arising from the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. It is well worthwhile legislation for the House to be debating. Labour is supporting the legislation. Labour believes, however, that it does not really grapple with the fundamental problems of the insurance market and the insurance industry. It does provide welcome oversight by the Reserve Bank in a way that we think is in keeping with international best practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt was not many days ago that Wellingtonians experienced an earthquake of the sort of magnitude that causes people to really reflect upon their lives and the way they normally go about things. It was over 6 in magnitude. Fortunately, there were no real injuries and no loss of life, and there was only relatively minor property damage on this occasion. But we all understand that this House sits on New Zealand\u2019s equivalent of the San Andreas fault, the Wellington fault, and the cascade of many thousands of small, medium, and large earthquakes northwards from the Canterbury fault lines that underpinned the devastating Christchurch quakes has raised in the minds of many New Zealanders the degree to which Wellington\u2019s region, like Marlborough, is at risk of a catastrophic quake in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E According to GNS, the Institute of Geological and Nuclear Sciences, the probability of a quake within the Wellington region 2 weeks ago, after the last magnitude 6-plus, was put at 21 percent over the following week. That was a one-in-five chance of another earthquake of magnitude 6-plus. It might have been 6, it might have been 7, or it might have been\u2014God help us\u2014an 8. The key point is that with a 21 percent chance in 1 week and a 51 percent chance in 1 year, one of two things is going to happen. Either we are going to get a devastating earthquake in central New Zealand and we are going to exceed the ability of the Earthquake Commission and reinsurance arrangements to cope or the mere probability of being rated at that level will strain the reinsurance market even if no quake occurs, because insurance is priced based on risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat are the consequences for New Zealand? Although this legislation deals with ensuring the transparency and probity of the operations of the insurance market\u2014and we welcome that, as far as it goes\u2014it does not tackle the two key underlying problems: firstly, that the Earthquake Commission\u2019s reserves have been, naturally enough, significantly run down from coping with the Canterbury earthquakes, and we need to rebuild those reserves as quickly as possible in case we get another quake; and, secondly, that the fundamental problems in the insurance market and the escalating seismic risk around New Zealand mean that we could be in the position where there is a fundamental breakdown of the insurance market itself because insurance becomes priced out of the reach of normal commerce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat will the Key Government do? The answer is that in the face of this historic challenge, it is tinkering with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ff7dc127764dd8955c5bea53e6b68b\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: What a lot of nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff9d975008d44b3be14c10a405194c2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: There is nothing in this legislation that addresses those fundamental problems, nothing in this legislation that provides support for the reinsurance market, nothing in this legislation\u2014John Hayes is doing exercise. What a wonderful spectacle. I encourage it. You may end up with a body like Mr Goldsmith\u2019s there very soon. And it is lovely to have Maggie Barry with us, sitting behind the lovely Judith Collins, garbed as she was today from Plantorama. It is just like Maggie\u2019s Garden Show is back with us again. But enough mirth\u2014enough mirth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is really important for New Zealand that if we get the big one, we can pay to rebuild it, and we will not get an insurance market that works off the basis of this legislation alone. [Interruption] You can always tell a Government that is in decline, because the backbenchers are getting restless. They spend their mornings counting heads between Steven Joyce and Judith Collins, knowing that the end is nigh for John Key. Either it is coming in 15 months\u2019 time with a rejuvenated Labour Government or he is going to step down just after. Those rowdy, underutilised, frustrated, venomous backbenchers over there know that they are going to miss out on ministerial office. That is why they are all gathered around Mr Bridges. He is their only touch with greatness, and that is a pretty fading dream. Back to the callisthenics from Mr Hayes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ed9916a77c4fd3b2e98d78d67d5977\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe you should go back to your seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd0d0e8dbe284075b6ab56ddca25edd9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: And there we are. The parliamentary pantomime trundles on. But, in the meantime, the problems in the insurance market, unfortunately, are very real. I am very concerned, and our party is very concerned, that if there is not a more fundamental set of examinations of the insurance market, New Zealand will be caught unable to deal with the big one in Wellington or with the risks that that potential creates in the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI would ask the Government at what point it will lift its gaze above the tinkering that is going on in this legislation to address those questions by, for example, setting up another State insurer, which could act to provoke competition in the market and keep the international reinsurers honest. Where is the courage from this National Government? Where is the foresight? Where is the looking over the horizon from the Government that would allow it to stand up for what New Zealand really needs? The answer is that there is not any. There has not been any since we faced the great challenges of the Christchurch earthquake and the global financial crisis. The Government has just, to use its own words, muddled through. New Zealanders are despairing. You can see the hope fading in their eyes and many thousands heading to the departure gates because they expected recovery. What did they get? Stagnation. Unemployment is stubbornly high. There is nothing in this legislation to address unemployment. Unemployment is well above the projections of the Government\u2019s own Budgets from the last 3 years\u2014not surprisingly, because it has done nothing active to get it down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EGovernment members are sitting there on their cushy seats in their ministerial LTDs, climbing the greasy pole of ambition, like Mr Bridges, waiting for the market to deliver nirvana for someone more than their own mates. That is not going to work. Meanwhile, the insurance market is failing all around. The best that this Government can serve up is tinkering reform, extending the micro-regulatory powers of the Reserve Bank, and ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the fundamental escalation of risk and the inability of the reinsurance market to deal with it within a price range that will work for New Zealanders. It is yet another example of a Government that has lost its way, lost its touch, and is on the way to the departure gate. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022de905664fdf041e0a2d0eb89f4cb8079\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de905664fdf041e0a2d0eb89f4cb8079\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I rise to talk at the third reading of the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill. This is legislation that is another significant step in achieving clear, robust regulatory arrangements across our financial sector. In keeping with much of the other fine legislation that this John Key - led Government has passed, it is specialising in cutting red tape and also cutting compliance costs. As we have heard, Labour supports this legislation. At the Finance and Expenditure Committee it went through very well. There were a couple of submissions. We had four submissions and we heard from two submitters, who recommended a change to the provision of interim financial information requirements\u2014all very straightforward, really. I agree with and, in fact, share David Parker\u2019s approval of the transition process, and that the Reserve Bank give oversight to all insurers and that they be licensed and supervised by the bank. They also have to comply with prudential requirements because the Reserve Bank will be both the regulator and the supervisor. I think that will give great peace of mind, really, to people in New Zealand who are worried about their insurance issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI would have to say that the member who just resumed his seat, the Hon David Cunliffe\u2014who generally takes dullness and smugness to a ridiculous extreme\u2014is now clearly buoyed up by his prospects, and contender No. 2 is proving he is somebody who has a little bit of life in him yet. He talks about risks and consequences. That is something that he knows quite a lot about. I guess that when it comes to seismic upheaval, which I suppose was the general weak theme of his discourse, then once again it is something he is fairly familiar with as someone who has experienced rather a lot of it in his own party\u2014much of it, I feel, of his own making. He is, of course, irretrievably dull and not widely liked by his own caucus, but there is probably not enough time in this particular call to go into that in any detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThe Greens, of course, do not support the bill. There is nothing new there. They do not really support anything that encourages growth, jobs, mining\u2014any kind of improvement to the economy. They are, of course, consistent, and that is not a bad thing, really, because at least you know where you are with them, although I think their hopes of getting any kind of financial responsibilities under Labour, if ever it attains the Treasury benches, have diminished somewhat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EOne of the final things I would say in this call is that the legislation empowers the Reserve Bank to publish and maintain on its website an official register of licensed insurers. That is going to have additional content in it, which for the first time will actually make it easy for people to shop around to find out who is good and who is not, in much the same way that the Labour Party is doing but with very limited success. Thank you. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00226fcb00d5e8a24fb88daf35ff9ebfde33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fcb00d5e8a24fb88daf35ff9ebfde33\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand First on the legislation arising from the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill. It is particularly a great pleasure to rise after the MP for North Shore, and I am sure that insurance is very much on her mind, being a recent new resident of the North Shore this year, moving over a few months ago to a cliff-top property at Stanley Point. I hope the member for North Shore has taken appropriate insurance for her cliff-top property now that she has finally moved to the North Shore after nearly 18 months of living south of the bridge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut moving on to this legislation, we in New Zealand First believe that it is a fundamental requirement for New Zealand to have profound, well-functioning, solid, robust insurance. It is most important. This has been highlighted in the last 2 or 3 years, where we have all had a huge wake-up call in terms of the risk that we face in this country, where natural disasters and other disasters of a human kind can wreak havoc on a community and can wreak havoc on a town, city, or region. As a result, it is most important that we take the risk out of that and are properly insured. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis is very much technical legislation. If you read the background to it, it is very much administrative legislation. It tidies up some loose ends, puts some greater controls in place, and makes sure that it is, overall, a more robust insurance sector. At the end of the day, it is most important because a modern economy\u2014and we do pride ourselves, New Zealand, on thinking that we are a modern economy\u2014does depend on having the safeguards of a sound insurance sector. The public must have confidence that the sector is sound, and appropriate prudential supervision of the sector is an important regulatory function that this Parliament must ensure is done to the very highest level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe have scrutinised the legislation, and we feel that this is good policy. As we have said in this House many times over the last 2 years, New Zealand First will support policy where it is, in our opinion, good policy, and we will oppose any bill where we feel it is bad policy. In this particular case, this does beef up the insurance sector, we do believe it is good policy, and New Zealand First will be supporting it. We certainly hope, as a result, that the member for North Shore will also ensure that her cliff-top property has good insurance as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca932bcf62234e36bd08126ea3928998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca932bcf62234e36bd08126ea3928998\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E If there are no other speakers, then let me just reiterate that the Green Party\u2014for the reasons advanced by Russel Norman, Julie Anne Genter, and me over the previous readings\u2014will be opposing this legislation, the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill. Rather than stretching out time, let me just pick up on one point of interest this afternoon that was raised by David Parker and explored by David Cunliffe, and that is the issue of extending the risk from 500 years to 1,000 years. The suggestion from David Parker is that, from the Reserve Bank to the insurance companies, this will no doubt increase the incentive of the insurance companies to increase the premiums. That will be passed on to the house owner, who will either be unable or unwilling to cover their own insurance, or at least will have less insurance, so it will prove to be counter-productive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI have a high regard for pretty much everything that David Parker does and explains, but I wonder whether, in fact, he is right on this particular one, for the following reason. If the insurance company is told to extend its cover from 500 years to 1,000 years, what it is essentially doing is simply extending the time period of risk. That essential risk factor does not change. It remains the same over the 1,000 years. So if an insurance company is accepting a risk over 1,000 years, it follows, axiomatically, that it will be charging premiums over 1,000 years\u2014precisely the same period. It is not the case that it will be taking the risk over 1,000 years and charging over 500 years. If it were, then indeed it would be justification for an increase in premium. But if, in fact, the time period for cover equates to the time period for insurance premiums, then, in fact, there will be no justification at all for increasing any premiums. Essentially, almost in an existential sense, it is New Zealand and New Zealanders through households being prepared to determine what level of risk they are prepared to cover. This does not arise, admittedly, in the context of this legislation, but it is alluded to, and no doubt, as Mr Parker and Mr Cunliffe have intimated, it will come up, or should, for consideration before very long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228bb03492c0604671ac42e2729fc75d95\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Insurance (Prudential Supervision) Amendment Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efe751dfeb0843b6afe17490133d74f1\u0022\u003EResource Management Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022778a6e0f13b8448788262a11b317f8da\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000272\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 31 July.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c7bac4966fb4614952239a493f3436a\u0022\u003EPart 1  Resource Management Act 1991 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00224257ab3e0f4147f08550b3b798a93a90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224257ab3e0f4147f08550b3b798a93a90\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted by the passage of time, we were discussing, in the debate on Part 1 of the Resource Management Reform Bill, what this National Government is doing on the question of tree protection in Auckland. I want to use the remaining time just to underline the point Labour colleagues have made that National is taking an axe to provisions in the local government law that give councils powers where this is an issue\u2014particularly in Auckland on the North Shore, where there is this treasure of a coastal fringe of p\u014Dhutukawa forest, and also over in west Auckland and the Waitakere Ranges, where David Cunliffe and I represent the interests of west Auckland. West Aucklanders want to see the urban forest protected and retained. There are very good reasons for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESubmitters like the Tree Council and the Environmental Defence Society came along to the Local Government and Environment Committee and pointed out not only the intrinsic amenity value of trees and the beauty that they contribute to people\u2019s lives in neighbourhoods like Titirangi but also that they play an important protective role in very steep country like the Waitakere Ranges, which has exceedingly high rainfall. Felling one tree\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022145168cbea64454d99c9ba4de3d99003\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Phil Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237479701e328427e8de591c2b4b62b67\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Just getting warmed up, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd5aa0a3b9954b008b3c613f0e7b774e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I can see that, Mr Twyford. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae44022657d4720a606ac1ae3f24889\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Felling one tree in the Waitakere Ranges can have a knock-on effect that can affect adjacent properties because the roots of those trees play a very important anti-erosion role. They keep the land from falling down into the valleys and the gullies, because the landscape is quite unstable, the rainfall is very high\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dcdc6e5c657419b9fefe7c1c06b90bc\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: But it\u2019s a good way of making nice flat football fields.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221710ed1ddef4463ab64c2bd9ab826bd3\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It is not, Mr Mallard, a good way of making football fields. This is a very serious issue for the people of west Auckland, who want to see the urban forest and, in fact, the Waitakere Ranges and the eastern coastal fringe p\u014Dhutukawa forests protected for future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, what the National Government is doing with the provisions in Part 1 of the Resource Management Reform Bill is that it is imposing a kind of individual property rights takes all mentality on what people in these parts of Auckland regard as important collective community assets. The urban forest is something that provides enormous amenity and advantages for the whole community. But what National seeks to do with this bill is to take away the powers that councils have had to efficiently and effectively protect the forest by the use of general tree protection rules. It is true that there have been amendments to these provisions that will make it somewhat easier for councils to protect those trees\u2014for example, a grove, a group, a line of trees can be protected\u2014but it still imposes on councils the requirement that they have to list every single section that they want to, where there are trees that are to be protected. It was the submission of councils that came before the select committee that this will effectively make it too arduous and too costly to the ratepayer, for councils to effectively protect all the trees they want to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAfter all, that is the intent of the National Government on this issue. It does not want the individual rights of property owners and particularly of property developers, who may want to bowl a line of p\u014Dhutukawa trees that may be getting in the way of their cliff top views over on the North Shore, where Andrew Williams come from, or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b753979e94c34db987d621cca9249b27\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Maggie Barry comes from there now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1dfa83bec714814b632973130933039\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Maggie Barry comes from there now too? OK. Or they may want to bowl a line of native trees on a section in the Waitakere Ranges, which would cause instability and erosion and could have a negative impact on neighbouring properties. So the provisions in this bill are a triumph for the National Party\u2019s narrow property rights perspective over the values that members on this side of the Chamber also support, which are the collective and community assets, the quality of our communities, and, particularly, the ecological asset that the coastal forest and the urban forest represent, which is something that we hold dear and regard as important to safeguard for future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis argument has been going on now for the last few years. In fact, I remember one of the first debates of the last Parliament, in early 2009, when the Hon Nick Smith brought to this House rules that laid waste to general tree protection rules, and which, to a large extent, were subsequently challenged and overturned in the Environment Court. The Environment Court decreed that it was OK for some of the Auckland councils to use general tree protection rules to protect the urban forest, and allowed those councils to circumvent Nick Smith\u2019s aspirations. Well, this bill really is Amy Adams\u2019 revenge on the Environment Court and is one more attempt to impose triumph for private property rights over those of us who would like to protect the urban forest and the coastal forest for future generations. It is just a shame that such an important part of life in Auckland can be put at risk by such a narrow, barren world view that is represented by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb9f630824be4f85a890d4c69b19a55f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb9f630824be4f85a890d4c69b19a55f\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am speaking to the Committee stage of the Resource Management Reform Bill. Labour will continue to oppose this bill. I do want to mention, however, Supplementary Order Paper 324, which the Minister for the Environment has put up in recent times, and speak to that in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe section that my colleague Phil Twyford has just been speaking to is clause 12. It is an amendment to section 76 of the Resource Management Act, which applies to district rules. The whole purpose of these rules previously has been to protect trees or groups of trees because of their ecological value, and because of not only their ecosystem value but also their ecological, amenity, and aesthetic value. Some of these trees are in groups or lines or are otherwise collected together across a range of properties. So where it may have been easier to say, for example, that all of the p\u014Dhutukawa trees that line the east coast, from the harbour bridge in Auckland through to the top of East Coast Bays, could be protected from felling, trimming, damaging, or removal, the requirement is now that trees or groups of trees must be identified by a particular address or unit title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn the course of this whole discussion about tree protection\u2014and my colleague referred to the impact, as I have before in this debate, of trees that are not on one\u2019s property but the removal of which or even the trimming of which may impact on another property\u2014it goes to show that it is not just the trees at one\u2019s own address that have an impact on a house or a property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge, however, as I signalled a moment ago, Supplementary Order Paper 324, which the Minister has introduced relatively recently. I acknowledge her efforts at trying to address this concern that we have had, and I appreciated the advance notice of the Supplementary Order Paper that the Minister gave me. I think it is constructive. Although we may not approve of the bill in total, we would rather see the bill, if it is to proceed, go with this amendment rather than without it. So, perversely as it may sound to some, we will support this amendment because it does allow the replacement of the words the \u201Cgroup of \u2026 trees are described\u201D in clause 12\u2014and this is new section 76(4B)(c)(i)\u2014and that means that instead of just referring to \u201Cthe trees are described\u201D, it replaces that with \u201Cthe group of trees is described\u201D. By that, I understand it is the Minister\u2019s intention that this is to apply to groups of trees so that they are not so readily destroyed by the ability of individual property owners to move on their own sections and properties. So I appreciate that effort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESimilarly, in clause 12, new section 76(4D)(a) has, again, the words \u201Cregardless of whether the tree or trees,\u201D\u2014or group of trees\u2014\u201Cor the allotment or allotments, are also identified on a map in the plan;\u201D. This all sounds a little bit technical, but it does provide for a modicum more protection in terms of the words on the page for groups of trees, and that effort is appreciated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EHowever, if I just back up a little bit, having spoken about clause 12, which was one of the clauses that received the greatest number of submissions and some of the most vehement advocacy for trees and the benefits that they give us in our communities, one of the concerns that was raised in the course of the consideration of that was the additional expense or trouble that councils might have to go to in order to identify trees or groups of trees by lot or address or unit title in order for them to be protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere are some local authorities and territorial authorities around the country that have not done such an exercise previously. They have used only aerial mapping and have identified clumps of trees and groups of trees simply by aerial identification. It is going to mean for some councils and some local authorities that they are going to have to put additional effort, and money and time and resources of all sorts, into this exercise. When I checked with the two councils\u2014one city council, one district council; both unitary authorities\u2014in the Nelson area, where I live and work, this was not a problem in particular for Nelson City Council. It already identifies trees for protection by address, and that is reflected in some other territorial authorities\u2019 practices, but it is not universal around the country. There will be territorial authorities, local authorities, that will find this cumbersome and expensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere is one other clause that I wish to speak to at this point, and it is clause 11. It is the bit about it amending section 53 of the Resource Management Act. Clause 11 is entitled \u201CSection 53 amended (Changes to or review or revocation of national policy statements)\u201D. New section 53(2) says: \u201CThe Minister may, without using a process referred to in subsection (1), amend a national policy statement if the amendment is of minor effect or corrects a minor error.\u201D This has some concern attached to it because it means that if the amendment is of minor effect or corrects a minor error, the Minister is able to do that without any consultation process, which is usually required for the development of a national policy statement about any environmental matter, whether it is the quality of water or air quality or whatever else it is that the Minister wishes to make a national policy statement on. She is able to do that without consultation\u2014without a consultative process attaching to it. So we are left to work out whether or not the Minister\u2019s judgment of a minor effect or a minor error is a sufficient safeguard for people in determining a change or review or revocation of a national policy statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is a serious matter, and it is one of the things that has caused us concern during the course of this resource management bill. It received a few mentions in submissions. Obviously, people were very exercised by the protections of trees and not as many of them focused on this, but still, in all, certainly the Environmental Defence Society did issue a paper quite early on in the process that said that it found this ability of the Minister to amend a national policy statement if she considers the amendment to be of minor effect or to correct a minor error to be of some concern and that national policy statements should be subjected to a consultation process both in their development and in any rescinding or revocation or alteration to those. So that was another matter of concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut I started to say before that I wanted to back up a wee bit and just go through some of the figures that pertain to resource management consents. Those have been catalogued elsewhere and I will come to those again later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9519c97b24241cf8869d83b836c568f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9519c97b24241cf8869d83b836c568f\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E When we were previously considering the Committee stage of the Resource Management Reform Bill, I made a mistake and said that the bill would allow the Minister to call in medium-sized projects and appoint a board of inquiry to consider them. That was incorrect, and I apologise to the Committee for the mistake. The bill provides for a 6-month deadline for decisions on medium-sized projects, including ones that are notified for public submissions, but it does not provide for a call in. But I would like to make some comments on these medium-sized applications and the provisions around direct referral to the Environment Court in clauses 13, 14, and 15. The Green Party opposes these provisions as being anti-democratic and likely to reduce public participation. The bill enables applicants for medium-sized projects above a yet-to-be-defined investment threshold to avoid a council-level hearing and refer a matter directly to the Environment Court. It removes the relevant council\u2019s power to decline that request, except in \u201Cexceptional circumstances\u201D, which are not defined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAn Environment Court hearing is by its very nature much more formal and prescribed than a council hearing. There are a lot more lawyers, there are a lot more people in suits, and it is more expensive, and this constrains the public right to participate because of that expectation that people will have legal representation. This focus on the value of investment as being the threshold for direct referral to the Environment Court, putting the application on a decision-making track that is quite different, is putting the economic value of the application ahead of the public\u2019s right to participate and be involved in the decision on whether that application should proceed. It is a very arbitrary threshold for an Act that is supposedly based on effects, and it is not a good determinant of the complexity of an application, nor of its potential effects. As Greenpeace noted in its submission, a project that has higher economic value will often have many more effects, and more serious effects, than one with a lower value. So potentially you should be encouraging public participation on those more complex projects, not restricting it by this direct referral provision. It is definitely eroding the power of councils and local authority decision-making to say that this is mandatory and that they cannot decline consent to a direct referral except in exceptional circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is also a risk that it will impose significant workload issues on the Environment Court by having more applications go directly to it, but we are also concerned about a number of other provisions in this bill that affect and seek to restrict public participation. One of those is in clause 49, which introduces the concept of a person who is directly affected by an effect. It can restrict participation in the Environment Court to parties who are directly affected. Often that has been defined in relation to people who have got a private property interest, such as a neighbouring landowner, rather than a community organisation representing an aspect of the public interest. So this clause is quite a noxious clause and, in our view, a very unacceptable restriction on public participation and access to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI think what we are seeing here is the Government being quite contemptuous of our international treaty obligations. At the Rio\u002B20 Earth Summit, New Zealand and more than 190 other countries adopted The future we want outcomes document. That document says in paragraph 43: \u201CWe underscore that broad public participation and access to information and judicial and administrative proceedings are essential to the promotion of sustainable development.\u201D That builds on very similar commitments in the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development of 1992. The bill is trampling on that because of clauses such as clause 49, but also because of the major push in the bill to be quite restrictive around time frames. That is all about providing certainty for applicants but not for the community or the environment that is affected by those applications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe National Government and the big corporates have run a very deliberate campaign of misinformation about the Resource Management Act and about decision making under the Resource Management Act under recent years. We have heard time and time again from Government members talk about the costs, uncertainties, and delays, but they do not talk about the cost to the community or the environment from speedy decision-making. That is because the National Government is focused very much on the short term. It does not understand that if you want a smart economy, you need to underpin that with a healthy environment. You need to look out 50 years ahead. You need to recognise the importance of the ecosystem services that nature provides\u2014clean air and clean water\u2014and the need to safeguard those services, not just rubber-stamp development like mining and drilling, and big developments along the coast, which cut across those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo there are major parts of this bill\u2014and the whole thrust of the Government\u2019s changes to the Resource Management Act in this bill, and the proposed bill that is to be introduced later this year\u2014where the National Government is sabotaging our economy. It is undercutting and trampling on environmental quality at a time when we should be giving integrity to our \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D brand. Instead, the Government is weakening our environmental law, rather than strengthening it, which would help give integrity to that brand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAt the moment, this is all about pushing through applications and changing the deadlines. In the Act at present we have time frames for specific parts of the decision-making processes at council level, but there is not a set period of time in which a decision should be made when it is made at the council level. There is a very good reason for that. Often applicants will change some of the aspects of their applications in response to the concerns raised by submitters through the whole process, but the bill is imposing a 6-month deadline for councils to consider and decide medium-sized applications. That compares with the 9-month deadline for applications going to the board of inquiry. Like Local Government New Zealand, we oppose that, because we are not convinced that there is a problem with timeliness in the Act. When you have got the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s own survey of local authorities in 2010-11 showing that 95 percent of all applications are processed in accordance with the statutory time frames, that 87 percent of the notified applications were processed on time, and that more than 99 percent of applications are approved, there is not a major problem with timeliness. Certainly, the National members pull out anecdotal examples of small applications that may have taken a while, but there is no solid policy analysis in the regulatory impact statement to support this restriction on making the decision within that 6-month period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is not good enough, in our view, to beat up on councils. When the Waikato Regional Council analysed its data about when the time frames in the Act were exceeded, it found that one of the most common reasons was that applicants could consult with interested or affected parties after they had lodged their applications. Again, it is because of those submitters raising issues and the applicant responding. So, as Local Government New Zealand said, the bill is trying to legislate for good practice. This is inevitably difficult and arguably pointless when that practice cannot be validly prescribed in detail, because a single practice will not be universally applicable. The deadlines that the bill is implementing are very complex. They will make the Act more difficult to administer, rather than simpler, which is supposedly what this Government\u2019s agenda is about. By controlling the time frame in this way, what the bill is doing is pushing councils to rubber-stamp applications, to not consider their effects appropriately, to not go and subject those to good scrutiny, but instead to just push applications through as if the council were a sausage factory and to actually restrict the ability of communities to engage properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EUnder the bill, applicants will be able to ask for extensions and for the clock to stop in terms of the processing, but a council will have only one opportunity to stop the clock and ask the applicant for further information. Often those requests for further information come in response to submissions from the community and the public where they say that these issues are important to them and that these environmental effects will occur, and that the applicant has not considered those properly and has not done an adequate assessment of effects. But having the mandatory 6-month deadline for medium-sized applications and having these restrictions on the council asking for further information is going to lead to applications being rubber-stamped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022feb90a08f4d54620abeb6f993f18cac3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feb90a08f4d54620abeb6f993f18cac3\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to follow on from my colleague the Hon Maryan Street and my Green colleagues and have a look at clause 13 of the Resource Management Reform Bill, which is on investment thresholds. Clause 13 requires consents over an investment threshold to be directly referred to the Environment Court. This level will be set by regulation, allowing it to be freely changed by the Minister for the Environment. Based on the submissions to the Local Government and Environment Committee, basically there are two main concerns: one is a lack of definition as to what constitutes an investment threshold, and the second is the regulation-making powers of this so-called \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause. So there are two main concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EIt is unclear why an investment threshold is chosen, rather than other measures, such as environmental impact. Currently, major projects that are not of national significance can go through a direct referral process and avoid the need for a council hearing. This amendment under the current bill is to circumvent the requirement of a council\u2019s permission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI would like to take this opportunity to thank the officials for their great efforts and for their thorough analysis and advice. A significant number of submitters commented on this particular clause, and I should say that they had mixed views about the changes to the direct referral process. Basically, of the 57 submitters on direct referral, only 22.8 percent were in support, and if we are taking into consideration those who gave conditional support, that probably amounts to 40.3 percent. But, overall, 22.8 percent of the submitters were in support, and 50.9 percent of the submitters were in opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESubmissions from local government were generally of the view that the proposed changes were an erosion of locally based decision-making and would reduce the ability of councils to make important decisions for local communities. They considered that the clause went against the philosophy and the principle of the primary Act and was a watering down of the role of councils. They considered that the discretion that councils currently have to decide whether to agree to a request for direct referral should be retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI would like to cite some submissions to support what I just said, and in return to support what the submitters wished to express. Basically, as I said, there are two general concerns. One is a lack of definition as to what constitutes the financial investment threshold and what constitutes exceptional circumstances. Submitters have felt that without this it was difficult to provide a fair and informed response to the proposed change. For instance, Southland Regional Council wanted the parameters of a value of investment and exceptional circumstances defined within the Act, and this view was held by other district and regional councils. Some submitters felt that non-monetary factors should be recognised in the threshold. For instance, Christchurch City Council felt that the financial value of a proposal should not be the sole determinant of whether an application is directly referred. There may be other reasons as to why a proposal should not be directly referred, such as social and amenity considerations. Wellington City Council opposed the constraint on a council\u2019s power to decline a request. It also questioned why costs should be the overriding factor, instead of, for example, the level of effects, number of affected parties, or consistency with the district plan. I would like to continue with the Tasman District Council, which felt strongly that establishing an investment value is arbitrary and not necessarily a good proxy for complexity or potential contention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ERotorua District Council raised in its submission a very important point, and I wish to bring that to the attention of the Committee. Rotorua District Council recommended that the threshold be district specific. The threshold in Auckland, for example, may be quite different from the threshold in Rotorua. Environment and conservation organisations of \u201CNew Zealand Incorporated\u201D considered that the Resource Management Act is an effect-based Act, and it is not fair to others or to the future to make the choice of a process contingent on the investment. The Bay of Plenty Regional Council considered that it will require additional work for councils in assessing whether an application meets the threshold or in making a determination around exceptional circumstances. Otago Regional Council submitted that there is already a suitable process in the Act in section 357\u2014the objection process\u2014to refer applications directly to the Environment Court. As such, the Otago Regional Council opposes the proposed changes and requested that they be rejected. The committee of the Auckland District Law Society stated that it was not aware of any issue where direct referral requests were being refused unreasonably by local authorities, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESo, basically, there are two main concerns: one is a lack of definition as to what constitutes an investment threshold, and the second is the so-called \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause\u2014the regulation-making powers. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224438133e19ee4124a80629aa05d9e668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224438133e19ee4124a80629aa05d9e668\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002226a4875bacf240d587f86645ecf76259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226a4875bacf240d587f86645ecf76259\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 1 of the Resource Management Reform Bill. I am a qualified planner. I am very familiar with the Resource Management Act, and I would be the first to admit that there are a whole lot of areas for improvement, both in district plans and in our urban planning process. But, unfortunately, this reform bill, put forward by the National Government, is another perfect example of its inability to understand or define properly what the problems are, and then address them in a coherent, intelligent way that is going to deliver a smarter, greener environment for New Zealanders to live in, and a smarter, greener economy that is going to enable us all to look after ourselves in the generations to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAs I said before, I would be the first to admit that planners have been a big part of the problem over the past few decades. Unfortunately, the biggest problems that they have introduced in district plans are not at all addressed by this legislation. So it is very easy for the Government to go out and say that it is cutting red tape and it is going to make life easier for the average Kiwi, but, in fact, these provisions in this bill do the exact opposite. They are going to increase costs for average Kiwis. They are going to increase rates because they increase the costs for councils. A perfect example of this is the tree protection provision, which actually makes it much more difficult and costly for the council to ensure that there is adequate tree protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe have major issues with stormwater in our towns and cities in New Zealand because we get a lot of rain. I am not sure whether there are any people on the National side who have ever looked at stormwater management or who have any understanding, but as soon as you start cutting down trees, you massively increase the amount of stormwater run-off, which then has to go through our stormwater system, which is paid for by ratepayers, or it just flushes out to sea. So if we have individual landowners looking to cut down trees, because they would prefer to do that, it has an impact on the entire community, and it has an impact on the management of stormwater in our community. Over time, as we lose tree cover, we not only lose important ecological services that are performed by trees, we not only lose the amenity that New Zealanders absolutely value and are very concerned about preserving, as we are looking at increased intensification and development pressure in Auckland, but also, very practically, the consequence down the road of a council like the Auckland Council not being able to manage trees could quite logically be that we have increased stormwater run-off and increased costs to ratepayers. So on the one hand we have the National Government putting pressure on local councils, saying they should keep down their rates, but on the other hand it is actually taking away their ability to manage development in such a way that would reduce the economic costs and the environmental costs of stormwater run-off by ensuring that there are enough trees to take that water. So it is a perfect example of where the rhetoric is the exact opposite of the reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe National Government is going to increase costs to councils in the first instance, because now councils have to go through this intensely bureaucratic process, which is, as they said in their own submissions, costly and impractical, onerous and unworkable, and involves huge amounts of time and resources. I am sure that ratepayers around New Zealand do not appreciate the National Government making legislative changes that are going to increase costs for councils and therefore increase rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is no joined-up thinking in National. It is looking for short-term gains and an opportunity to claim that it is reducing red tape. But the reality is that the Resource Management Act, with all its imperfections, already allows most applicants to do whatever it is they want to do. Over 95 percent of applications for resource consents are granted, so how can one say that there is a problem, when rich developers and property owners are able to do exactly what they want? I agree that processes could be improved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EA perfect example of an area that is not addressed in the Resource Management Reform Bill is the onerous cost of parking restrictions, which is the single-biggest trigger of resource consent applications. You would think that National would care about reducing the burden of costs on developers and, perhaps, reducing the single-biggest trigger of resource consent applications, which are not grounded in any economic rationality but are simply a hangover of a 1950s car-oriented approach to transport planning, which has reduced the ability of New Zealanders to have good, affordable transport options. If National was able to look beyond its blind ideology, it would address this problem. It would ensure that developers were not forced to provide huge off-street car-parks when they do not want to. Local landowners, people looking to build houses\u2014right here in Wellington, a staff member in our office told me that they went to build a house and the council was telling them they had to put in two car-parks, which was basically impossible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E So here is an opportunity, an opportunity for the Government to do something in line with its own ideology that would reduce costs, reduce the burden to ratepayers, and reduce the burden to taxpayers from a car-oriented transport system. Instead, what is it doing? It is creating more bureaucratic nonsense for councils to go through to look after trees, which are essential not only for amenity but for stormwater management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOf course, this legislation also increases the bureaucratic analysis needed for a section 32 analysis with regard to the Resource Management Act, but it is looking at opportunities only for economic growth and employment. Unfortunately, the additional requirements for this type of assessment, rather than increasing certainty and increasing the soundness of the judgments that are being made, could quite likely require a level of detail to such an extent that it is actually impossible for local authorities to undertake an adequate necessary risk analysis. Again, it is an example of ideological rhetoric undermining good outcomes. I think that there was a whole wealth of submissions on this bill that were very informed and demonstrated that the approach taken in this reform bill is not one that is going to have the result of achieving a better outcome for New Zealanders. It is not going to reduce costs in reality. It is not going to improve councils\u2019 ability to ensure that local communities can look after the development that is happening, and ensure that it is occurring in a way that is going to be good for generations to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe also do not support the changes in this legislation that are going to make it harder for local communities to engage in the process of decision making around resource consent applications. Best practice in the most livable cities overseas, like Vancouver and in many communities in Europe, shows that the more that neighbours and stakeholders can be engaged at the beginning of a process\u2014whether it is for major infrastructure or whether it is for a major development\u2014the better the outcome achieved for the entire community. We are going in exactly the wrong direction on the basis of some narrow, ideological, rhetorical slogans from the National Party, because it is not the party that actually delivers good, smart, green outcomes for New Zealand. It is simply the party that waves its hands around, claims to be solving problems that are not even problems, and provides no analysis to support the changes in this legislation. Instead, it just gets on with it, and gets a worse outcome for all New Zealanders. That is what I have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u002271d07d67edab4a7ea4d64cde63d0e3af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d07d67edab4a7ea4d64cde63d0e3af\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00223b47b71530fb4ba8baf286cc17e6f5ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b47b71530fb4ba8baf286cc17e6f5ee\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I thought votes were meant to be taken in silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c03ba4633a61482799d299ffe8a43268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c03ba4633a61482799d299ffe8a43268\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was going to give an admonishment when we had finished. Votes\u2014and points of order, but votes particularly\u2014need to be heard in silence for two reasons, which I have been at pains to point out to the Committee. No member in this Chamber will vote under duress, but, more important, we just simply sometimes do not hear the votes. So voting will be done in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022affd6dde1651484cadace93cee5a2289\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000327\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 285 and 324 in the name of the Hon Amy Adams to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022abbd966b98ab455f8bd970cb0965261d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000328\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 282 in the name of Eugenie Sage to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b414343340a146ed83537cfd922e9ab1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221f5e5f6912c94c6b9159375c195e066e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226adac2ffb17646b68e8e8596c9a09791\u0022\u003EPart 2  Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Act 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbfdf532ddff4769995528332be82f15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbfdf532ddff4769995528332be82f15\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make some comments about Part 2 of the Resource Management Reform Bill, which amends the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Act 2010. It puts in place a framework for the development of the first combined plan for Auckland Council, known publicly, I think, as the draft Auckland Unitary Plan. Specifically, what it does is it establishes a fast-track process for the unitary plan with the establishment of a hearings panel\u2014a kind of one-stop shop hearings panel\u2014which takes the place of the normal Resource Management Act Environment Court appeals process. Labour supports this provision, and we have made it very clear publicly since the Auckland Council asked the Government to consider this back in December last year that we give qualified support to the proposal for the fast tracking. I will tell the Committee why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Auckland Unitary Plan is a very significant development in the life of the new amalgamated Auckland super-city. The unitary plan is the successor to all the old district and regional plans, and people will remember that having one plan for Auckland was one of the great selling points for the amalgamation, which led to the Auckland super-city being set up. It allows for an integrated approach to managing land use and managing growth in Auckland, for the first time ever. I think it is widely accepted, certainly on this side of the Chamber, that this is one of the significant benefits of the amalgamation of all the old local territorial authorities in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe unitary plan is significant because it is the first time that Auckland has had a concerted, comprehensive, and considered effort to manage its growth. The growth of Auckland and the poor regulatory framework that has existed until now is really at the heart of many of the big problems that are affecting Auckland, particularly around housing affordability, which is probably one of the worst. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe unitary plan contains a raft of measures for tackling affordable housing, and, importantly, it deals with the problem of the constraints on land supply, which lie beneath the very high prices for residential property in Auckland. The history of that, I think, is the old metropolitan urban limit, which was a fixed limit, a boundary, around the city, and that, together with a failure over many years to intensify and build a sufficient quantity of new houses in Auckland, and given the forces of supply and demand, was a recipe, unfortunately, for the very high residential property prices that are plaguing Aucklanders to this day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo the big innovation in the unitary plan gets rid of the old metropolitan urban limit, which Nick Smith has been railing against for months and months as such a terrible thing, without mentioning that the old metropolitan urban limit is gone. It is a dead duck. It is supplanted in the unitary plan. It is Nick Smith\u2019s convenient straw man to attack and try to blame Auckland Council for the current housing crisis when in fact the draft unitary plan, which is the first major kind of planning instrument of the new Auckland Council, gets rid of the metropolitan urban limits and replaces them with what the plan describes as the Rural Urban Boundary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe important innovation here is that the Rural Urban Boundary really is a staged shifting of the city limits that successively introduces large volumes of greenfield land in a planned, staged fashion over the life of the 30-year plan, which will bring quantities of greenfield land\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d66e7a2580745f082c38b911a0508c1\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds sensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9213cdd6dd0486da8f2fdd91a9e8eba\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that is right\u2014and provide the land that is necessary for Auckland\u2019s growth and development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo that is a really important piece of the puzzle to understand\u2014that the unitary plan delivers in a staged, careful fashion the new greenfield land that Auckland needs for its growth and development. This is not what National Party members including Nick Smith, the current Minister of Housing, have called for, which is a kind of wholesale destruction of the city limits, a deregulation of the planning process, the effect of which would simply be to allow suburban sprawl to rip across the countryside, to Whangarei in the north and down to Hamilton in the south. That is the last thing that Aucklanders want to see. So that is a really important feature of the unitary plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe essence of the proposal that Auckland Council brought to the Government at the end of last year was a streamlining of the process around this plan. Under the existing law the Auckland Unitary Plan could take between 7 and 10 years to bed in, given the scale and complexity of the plan, and given all the rights of appeal under the Resource Management Act it could be a decade before that bedding-in process is complete. It is my submission that that is unacceptable, for a number of reasons that I want to spell out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Auckland Council has undertaken a big public process of consultation and engagement. Part of the trade-off for limiting appeal rights to the Environment Court, under the Resource Management Act, was to front end the plan-making process with an array of public meetings and online consultation. I attended some of those meetings, and certainly there was a genuine concerted effort to engage with communities, to engage with stakeholders, and to really democratise those early stages of the plan-making process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt has been really interesting in that we have seen with the Auckland Unitary Plan the first ever major public conversation in our country\u2019s biggest city about the future shape of the city. You may not agree with the details of the plan, you may not like the way the town centres are categorised, you may not like the new proposed rules on intensification, and you may not like the proposal for high-rise development in some town centres, and so on, but there is no doubt that this has been a groundbreaking process for Auckland and the first time there has been a major public debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting, I think, that on the pages of the New Zealand Herald every day and on the major television networks we see these issues. The issues of urban development, housing affordability, sprawl versus intensification, and the relationship between transport and urban development are on the front pages of the newspaper and on our television and radio news bulletins almost every day. They are such a major feature of public debate, and I think that Len Brown and the Auckland Council deserve significant credit for opening up this conversation and leading in a way that, frankly, we have not seen in Auckland ever before in our lifetimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne of the things that is most important and that, I think, justifies the fast tracking is that we have a housing crisis in Auckland right now. There is no doubt about it. We have some of the most unaffordable housing in the Western World. The unitary plan, as I said, has a raft of measures for dealing with housing affordability, and Auckland needs those now. So that is the first reason. What I would say is that it has been rather amusing to see the National Party\u2019s apparatchiks in east Auckland and the North Shore, amongst local government circles, throwing themselves in front of the metaphorical bulldozer to try to stop and slow down the unitary plan process, when in Parliament the National Party has been wanting to speed it up and has been threatening Auckland Council with legislative intervention every day almost, and urging Auckland Council to speed up the very provisions that exist in this unitary plan, because the Government is so scared about the macroeconomic impacts of the Auckland housing crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThat was by way of a digression. But Labour does support the fast tracking because, firstly, the housing crisis deserves extraordinary measures, and, secondly, Auckland has already been through an election campaign. An extensive public process went into the making of the Auckland plan, and, as I said also, with another process around the unitary plan it could take 7 to 10 years\u2014[Bell rung] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ad48e85a2c4056acd43dbfd019d99a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking another call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef308ff590c4861875f20b440ea50fa\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking another call, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216539440bbb04135815eda09413e845d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: In the absence of a challenge, I will give you another call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b89f478659644f198c9d60dc4a378a88\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That is very charitable of you, Mr Chairman. As I said, it could take between 7 and 10 years for this plan to be finally bedded-down under the Resource Management Act, and that is just too long for Aucklanders to have to put up with. That is why we support the fast tracking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere are two issues on which the National Government baulked in terms of Auckland Council\u2019s proposals. The first is that Auckland Council proposed that the unitary plan be given legal weight from notification. The plan has been through all its processes and it is going to be notified next month, I understand. It goes out for people to consider and then respond to, to the hearings panel and, ultimately, goes to the Environment Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut under the Resource Management Act, prior to 2009, the plan would have had legal weight from notification. That does not mean it is operative, it does not mean that it has legal effect; it means that it will be taken into account, along with other operative plans, when consenting decisions are being made. That is critical, particularly for the considering of consents for housing developments for affordable housing, in light of the Auckland Council\u2019s urgent need to respond to the housing affordability crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt would have been the case pre-2009, before National changed the law, that the plan would have had legal weight. And that is why, and it is worth noting, that we had all the theatrics from Nick Smith earlier in the year when he went rampaging around the place, accusing Len Brown of crushing and destroying the dreams of Aucklanders to have affordable housing. He was trying to shift the blame for the housing crisis on to Auckland Council because he was so desperate to try to have something to show that the Government was doing something about housing affordability. Well, if it had not changed the law in 2009, this plan would have had legal weight from notification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESecondly, the other thing is that Auckland Council proposed that it should appoint the members of the hearings panel\u2014after all, it is Auckland\u2019s plan; after all, Aucklanders, through their rates, will pay for this plan and everything that the plan entails. But no, this Government in its centralising, nanny State way, insisted on having sole prerogative to appoint the members of the hearings panel. And instead of Aucklanders being able to make that crucial decision, Amy Adams and Nick Smith, two South Island Ministers, from the comfort of their ministerial offices in Wellington have hijacked this process by insisting that they have the exclusive right to appoint the members of the hearings panel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI just think that that is a real shame, and it is symptomatic of this Government\u2019s troubled relationship with Auckland that it did not trust Auckland Council to appoint the members of the hearings panel, and, in fact, spurned Auckland Council\u2019s proposal that the appointment of the hearings panel should be done jointly by the Government and by Auckland Council. I think that is a real shame. It is Aucklanders\u2019 plan. They are paying for it. Why should the democratically elected Auckland Council not be able to make that vital decision? It is typical of this Government\u2019s arrogant and interfering approach not only to local government generally but to Auckland particularly that they have insisted on keeping those powers to themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour supports the fast tracking of the plan, but we do think it is a shame that this Government could not see its way to share the process of appointing the members of the hearings panel. We think it is a shame that on the crucial issue of allowing the plan to have legal weight from notification, the Government did not go along with Auckland Council\u2019s proposal. In fact, because of that, we have had to go through this whole palaver around the Government\u2019s Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill, which itself would not have been necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis whole fuss that Nick Smith has taken us all through is because the Government did not agree to the draft unitary plan having legal weight from notification. Now we have to go through this whole special housing areas bill that Nick Smith has before the House currently, and all it does is cherry-pick aspects of the unitary plan, i.e. bringing in more greenfield land\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022 data-id=\u0022603969df48d6451e92bee34dbeca6e03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022603969df48d6451e92bee34dbeca6e03\u0022\u003ECLAUDETTE HAUITI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I am really excited to take a call on this Resource Management Reform Bill. In this bill is a proposal to develop a one-off hearings process for the first Auckland Unitary Plan. This is a streamlined process for developing and making operational the first plan, which develops a set of consistent planning policies and consistency of rules within a workable time frame. But what I am really excited about is that once the Auckland Council has developed a plan, it will be referred to a hearings panel in consultation with the council and the M\u0101ori Statutory Board. So although I hear my colleague Phil Twyford across the way say that it was arrogant of the Ministers to not refer to Aucklanders, well, in actual fact, they did. The M\u0101ori Statutory Board is very much part and parcel of the make-up of T\u0101maki-makau-rau, and, as we all know, the M\u0101ori Statutory Board is made up of the iwi of T\u0101maki-makau-rau and the m\u0101t\u0101waka, so it is very much a part of Auckland and T\u0101maki-makau-rau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EWe are also a party and a Government that has worked hard to develop its relationship with iwi, and this bill is an example of that strengthening of iwi relationships. Iwi are fully involved from the initial stages, not as a tack-on or an addendum. Iwi will be at the table and again through the appointments of the hearings panel. I want to reiterate that this bill allows M\u0101ori interests in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, Auckland, to be considered at the beginning stages, earlier on in the process, and, as I said earlier, not as a tack-on or as an addendum. Again, Auckland, T\u0101maki-makau-rau, Auckland m\u0101t\u0101waka, and the herenga waka will be considered earlier in the resource management planning process, with solutions developed up front with iwi consultation and iwi input. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EThis bill is about the timely delivery of the Auckland Unitary Plan. It is the council\u2019s main tool for achieving integrated management of the region\u2019s natural and physical resources, and we know that. It provides rules for what wh\u0101nau can do on their whenua and on their properties. So I thank the Minister for the Environment for bringing these reforms to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb334825cfa149f7b6fd6f1903e0e785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb334825cfa149f7b6fd6f1903e0e785\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow up on some comments that Phil Twyford made in respect of Part 2 of the Resource Management Reform Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227764982187c3415aa9a6b238a500e39d\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Just to correct them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f710249e08014f5e8bd750acaa6b4152\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will not respond to that interjection. This bill gives form to the way in which the new Auckland Unitary Plan is going to be brought into final effect. As Phil Twyford has said, one of the problems that the Government has caused for itself through an earlier stage in the Resource Management Act reforms was that until it passed one of its earlier so-called reform bills, new plans had transitional effect from the date of notification; therefore, they had legal weight even before they became fully operative. The Government thought that that introduced unnecessary complexity and said that it needed to have more simplicity, and so it said that proposed plans did not have any transitional effect, even after notification. Of course, the folly of that is shown by what is needed to be done now in respect of the other bill that is introducing and giving effect to parts of the Auckland Unitary Plan outside of the Resource Management Reform Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut I just want to make another observation as to why that is an inadequate response. I am sure a number of members in addition to me were at a lecture sponsored by Auckland University with Harvard Professor Edward Glaeser, who was in town recently. He was asked the question as to whether land supply was important in respect of growing cities in order to moderate the cost of housing, and he agreed that it was. Everyone agrees that. There is actually no one I am aware of who denies the proposition that land supply is not an important ingredient. Indeed, the Labour Party has been on record in respect of that position for a long time. In fact, we were calling for the new Auckland Unitary Plan to be given effect before the Government belatedly agreed to do so. But the problem with what the Government is doing in respect of land supply alone is that, as Professor Glaeser said, more important than issues around land supply at the margin of the city are rules that limit intensification of land use within the existing city boundary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe problem that the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the Environment, has\u2014and I would like her to respond to this point. I want her to admit that during the period prior to Auckland Unitary Plan becoming operative, none of the provisions relating to intensification of land use within the city boundary will have any legal weight. That is my understanding of the effect of this Resource Management Reform Bill, and it is also my understanding of the companion bill in respect of the Auckland land supply issues, the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill. None of it deals with the more important issue\u2014according to the Auckland Council, and Professor Glaeser confirmed this\u2014that most of the increases in housing stock in Auckland will come about through more intensive use of the land that is already serviced with telecommunications, roads, public transport, sewerage, car parking, and electricity. Those areas of intensification within the urban limit of Auckland are predicted to be the predominant source of new houses, new apartments, and new flats. They are going to be within the existing boundary of the Auckland Unitary Plan. Even after the Government\u2014if it does\u2014passes its Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill, most of the new supply of housing is going to come from within the boundary, and that relies upon changes that are in the new Auckland Unitary Plan that aid the intensification of land use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ERules such as where there is an existing house that might have a basement or an attic area that is quite suitable for having a flat put into it\u2014the planning rules around building a flat under a house within the existing exterior boundaries of the house\u2014are currently quite complex. There are quite long and arduous routes for applicants if neighbours object. The plan rules are not facilitative of those sorts of intensification of land use, and the Auckland Unitary Plan fixes that. But because of the inadequacy of this Government, both in respect of its refusal to assist Auckland in implementing those parts of its plan and because of its prior amendments to the Resource Management Act, those parts of the new Auckland Unitary Plan are of no legal effect for years\u2014for years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo despite the fact that the Government knows that from the advice from the council, from the advice from its own officials, I expect, and from the advice from world experts like Professor Glaeser, all saying that intensification within city boundaries is more important than the admittedly necessary extensions to the city boundary in respect of greenfield land supply, and despite the fact that the council knows that that is more important, it is not fixing it. So that is one of the reasons why house price inflation in Auckland is double digit and why we have got deposit requirements being required by the Reserve Bank in excess of 20 percent for most first-home buyers. It is because of its concern at the inflation in the Auckland house market putting at risk the financial stability of the banking system, and its effects on the wider economy. We have all of these flow-on effects because the Government has not been doing its job for 5 years in respect of resource management and the Auckland plans around housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want the Minister in the chair to take a call. If I have got it wrong and the rules relating to intensification of land use in the Auckland Unitary Plan are being advanced through this legislation, like the rules are in other legislation in respect of special housing areas, then take a call, Minister, and tell me that I have got it wrong. But my understanding is that the intensification of land use is not facilitated by this. Indeed, we still do not have any of those rules having any legal effect until the new Auckland Unitary Plan becomes fully operative, to be contrasted with where it was before the Government mucked it up with its last Resource Management Act changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f136a28ee397440a86b289a240af57ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f136a28ee397440a86b289a240af57ea\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to Part 2 of the Resource Management Reform Bill after quite a truncated debate on Part 1, it is about the Auckland Unitary Plan process. I endorse the comments made by Phil Twyford and David Parker. It is interesting that the Government is all about simplifying, streamlining, fast tracking, and providing certainty for applicants, but in terms of providing any certainty of regulation, having the unitary plan apply when it is notified, and having the rules have weight on notification rather than when the whole process is finished, of course the Government does not want to do that, and so it has not made that provision in the bill for the rules to have weight when it is notified, which we oppose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about the whole plan process and the appointment of the hearings panel, because the bill has got quite specific provisions around the unitary plan in order to streamline the plan process and to reduce community input. It gives the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Conservation very significant control of the process because, of course, it is the Ministers who are going to appoint the hearing commissioners. They will determine how much they are paid, and they will set the terms of reference for the hearing commissioners, not Auckland Council, even though it will be Auckland Council that is paying those commissioners. The whole fast-track process that the bill provides for the unitary plan is certainly not one that the Green Party is enthusiastic about, but it has accepted and not opposed it, because of the wide range of public support for that and for getting a plan finalised in order to recognise that the bigger Auckland now needs a plan promptly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill provides, with the Ministers having control of the appointment process, an example again of the very centralised, anti-democratic decision making that this Government is becoming. Part of its whole image now is of very centralised decision making, shutting out the public. Our preference is for the Auckland Council, not Ministers, to appoint the hearings panel. I have proposed a very modest and reasonable compromise in Supplementary Order Paper 281 that the Ministers and Auckland Council jointly appoint the hearings panel. I would like the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the Environment, to say why that is not a reasonable proposal, because it would be much more democratic, given the mandate that Auckland councillors have from those who elect them, and that it is Auckland\u2019s plan, not the Ministers\u2019 plan. The joint appointment process would much better represent a partnership between central government and local government than the very command-and-control approach that is this Government\u2019s favoured modus operandi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIf you look at the departmental report, it says that Ministers should appoint the hearings panel to ensure that the panel is \u201Cfully independent from the Council\u201D so that \u201Cthe panel\u2019s recommendations will not be biased towards the Council.\u201D But having a panel appointed by just Ministers risks its recommendations being biased towards those whom the Ministers and the Government will favour. The joint appointment process in Supplementary Order Paper 281 would avoid that. So that is why we are asking the Minister in the chair to seriously consider this joint appointment process and say why it is OK for the panel\u2019s recommendations to be biased towards those that the Government would agree to but not that it be biased towards the council. This whole appointment process is yet another example of the disdain that this Government has towards local democracy and how it is grasping and grabbing power for the executive and centralising decision-making. It has become a real hallmark of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other issue I would like to talk to is the whole way in which the scope of submissions operates in the bill, because it is clause 125 that puts a new provision in the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Act to allow the hearings panel on the unitary plan to make decisions that are beyond the scope of submissions on the proposed plan. It can effectively make a decision on any matter that the panel identifies through the hearings process. This is an extraordinary, broad power, and it is a very substantive and inappropriate departure from existing law. All of the 31 submitters who commented on this provision expressed concern about it because it is giving the hearings panel unfettered discretion. When you combine that with the fact that Ministers are appointing that panel, that is giving it huge scope to influence Auckland\u2019s future by the decisions that it makes, recognising that the Auckland Council\u2019s ability to appeal those decisions is very limited and is only on the basis of the decisions that it disagrees with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhen you have got a power of the Environment Court to make recommendations outside the scope of submissions, parties are given an opportunity to comment on, and respond to, those recommendations, but the bill does not provide an equivalent provision for the hearings panel to invite such comment when it is proposing to go beyond the scope of submissions. That is a very broad extra power that is going to this hearings panel. It blurs the whole boundary between adjudication, which is a proper role of the hearings panel, and plan making, which is the Auckland Council\u2019s role. So Supplementary Order Paper 283, in my name, seeks to limit the hearings panel to making recommendations that are within the scope of the submissions by deleting this decision-making power to go beyond the scope of submissions. That would make the whole decision-making process much more robust because the hearings panel would have to base its decisions on issues that were raised by submitters and that had been the subject of evidence that was presented by the submitters and tested through the submission and hearing process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other issue I would like to comment on is the whole status of the Auckland Spatial Plan, the Auckland Plan, and section 140 in clause 125. You have got the Government talking about simplifying and streamlining. If the Government was genuinely interested in that, rather than in promoting an anti-democratic, anti-environment, anti-community agenda, it would have responded to the submissions of Local Government New Zealand and the Auckland Council asking that the hearings panel give more weight to the Auckland Plan than simply ensuring that regard has been given to the spatial plan, as section 140(3) in clause 125 currently provides. We need to ensure that the unitary plan is consistent with the spatial plan, because of the very high level of public and community support for that plan and because of the way that it is an integrating document. As Local Government New Zealand identified in its submission, you have got a problem in local government planning because the Local Government Act, the Land Transport Management Act, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act, and the Resource Management Act do not talk to each other, yet the spatial plan does that integration and seeks to have much better planning because of that integration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe spatial plan is quite a comprehensive and long-term strategy for Auckland\u2019s development. It looks at the present and future mix of residential, business, industrial, and rural activities within specific geographic areas of Auckland. It looks at how you integrate that with essential infrastructure services and investment, with transport, with open space, and with water supply and waste water. The unitary plan is the critical tool to ensure that Auckland Council can achieve the outcomes that it set out in the spatial plan, and that spatial plan was developed through quite widespread engagement with the community and with stakeholders. Simply ensuring that the hearings panel just has to have had regard to it is not giving it enough weight. It should be that the hearings panel has to actually ensure that its decisions on the unitary plan are consistent with the spatial plan, as Phil Twyford highlighted, because of just how that plan will shape the future of the city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other issue I would like to comment on that will affect the way in which the Auckland Council operates is just the way in which the bill in Part 1 looks at how environmental reporting will be done. We want robust environmental reporting and we want independent environmental reporting, but we do not like what the bill does here, because it will give the Minister the power to use regulations to specify what a council will monitor and how it will do that, what environmental indicators the council is required to monitor, and what standards or methods will apply to each of those. There is no opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny on those measures, and given the opportunity for the ministry and the Minister to influence that through regulations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00224229e4aee6a0472c9d0b7a6007ae38ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224229e4aee6a0472c9d0b7a6007ae38ed\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on Part 2 of the Resource Management Reform Bill. I want to speak in terms of some of the comments that have been made in relation to the Auckland Unitary Plan, compared with the seven local authority plans and also the regional council plans that it replaces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EMany people would say that Auckland was not functioning under the former plans. That statement is incorrect. Each of the local authorities had robust district plans that had been brought into place over many, many years, which were a result of widespread consultation with their individual communities. The plans of Manukau, of Waitakere, of Auckland City, of North Shore City, of Franklin, and of Rodney were all, in their own right, substantial plans that suited their particular communities but now, under one Auckland Council, there is a requirement to merge those into one plan, and as a result this is what we are seeing before us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EHowever, there are concerns\u2014widespread in Auckland. When sitting on the Local Government and Environment Committee we heard from many, many submitters including submitters with extensive and lengthy experience in local government and in resource management, including Queen\u2019s Counsel, including some of the brightest legal minds in terms of New Zealand, in terms of planning, and in terms of the background to local government, who submitted that there were quite a few concerns about the Auckland Unitary Plan as it stood, and that in many instances it certainly fell well short of what was a robust document that would withstand scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn that regard we do support the situation that when the plan gets notified in the next few months it is not then in effect given the greater operative weight\u2014to become the overarching document\u2014until the hearings are fully completed. We heard that from many sources, who said that the existing rules that are in place around Auckland would otherwise just be completely trodden on and the safeguards that communities currently have would literally be pushed aside if this plan took greater weight than from when it was notified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn that respect there has been huge push-back from the people of Auckland, from communities all across Auckland, who have said that the first drafts of the plan had some grave errors. The errors included that something in the order of 47 percent of the properties across Auckland had the potential to have intensive development, up to potentially 10 metres high, on urban properties and on suburban properties. Also, without notification to any property owners, the property right next door to you could be purchased by a developer and could be intensified, and structures could be put up, up to 10 metres high, under the proposed plan, without you being aware until literally the day the bulldozers moved in and started work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt is unacceptable to any community, whether you are in Auckland or whether you are anywhere in New Zealand, to have a situation where you are not given the opportunity to at least have some input into what is being proposed next to your property, if it is outside what has been established standards in all these areas of Auckland over many, many years. Sure, Auckland is going to grow and it is going to have an increasing population, and there does need to be some intensification in areas. We agree that around many of the town centres and many of the urban centres there will be greater intensification and there will be higher buildings built closer to those transport hubs in those urban centres. But it does not mean, in the same breath, that people who have been used to living in their suburban homes should suddenly be subject to apartments going up next door, without any due process being in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ETherefore, in terms of this Auckland Unitary Plan\u2014going through this process with the hearings, which will take in the order of 2 to 3 years to complete\u2014it will mean that at the end of that process everyone will have had their full opportunity to have their day before the court, effectively, to put their submissions properly to the plan, as the plan is notified, and for that document to then be properly thrashed out so that the final operative plan that is put in place does have total and full scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt is somewhat concerning, and people have said this, that areas involving heritage aspects, areas involving trees, and areas involving intensification around town centres have not necessarily been identified to a suitable level. It is also concerning that some existing structure plans, which have taken an awful lot of work to get to where they are today, have the potential of being trodden on. I give as an example the Long Bay structure plan, which has 2,500 homes being built at Long Bay, one of the largest subdivisions in the country. More than 6,000 people potentially will be living there. It took close to 7 or 8 years of negotiations with the developers to finalise that plan so that there was a totally modern practice in terms of how that significant tract of land would be developed to include all modes of transport, to include parks, to include reserves, to include view shafts out to the Hauraki Gulf islands, and to ensure that it ended up as a modern 21st century development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThat proposal also included a very significant court case through the Environment Court with the North Shore City Council and the Todd Property Group, which ended up with a very, very good result for all parties, which saw the whole community buy into it in the end, and that resolved a situation for the community\u2014not just the North Shore community but people from all over Auckland\u2014who loved Long Bay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ELong Bay is the busiest regional park in the Auckland area. More than a million people a year go to that particular regional park, and they wanted to ensure that the urban intensification around that park was certainly kept to the best it could be in terms of the effects on the coastline, on the marine reserve nearby, and on the environment of that part of the northern part of Auckland and of the North Shore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EUnder this unitary plan and what was proposed, all that work over 6 or 7 years was basically going to be thrown out the window, and this unitary plan was simply going to be put in its place. The whole area of Long Bay was going to be just swallowed into the unitary plan, and the standards and the rules of the unitary plan would have been trodden on in terms of the Long Bay situation\u20147 or 8 years of hard work would have been literally for naught. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAs a result of this, I am sure that when this process goes through the proper hearings process and goes before the commissioners, that will be revisited, as will all the very good aspects of the likes of Long Bay. There are many other similar structure plans of new developments around Auckland that will similarly see their opportunity to be readdressed in terms of what those communities expected from those particular developments. We will not have just a one-stamp-meets-all approach to Auckland. They will still recognise the fact that different parts of Auckland do have different requirements, their communities have different expectations, and as a result we hope that there is a good outcome from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe have some reservations about the fact that the Government has not allowed the appointment of local commissioners as well as central government - appointed commissioners on this. We feel it would have been advantageous to have a mixture of commissioners, so that there was both local input and central government input into this very, very important plan of what is our largest city. Time will tell whether the decision of the Government to not include locally appointed commissioners is the right one. Aucklanders certainly will not appreciate commissioners being appointed from other parts of the country, who will not necessarily have the full understanding of the implications of the plan on the local communities of Auckland if it is not treated with respect in relation to local situations. We certainly hope that the commissioners who are appointed have a very, very high level of understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00228307901c8b6b4e32acd0faf9d8fd9e94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228307901c8b6b4e32acd0faf9d8fd9e94\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on the Resource Management Reform Bill. I want to focus on the Auckland Unitary Plan, which is a very, very important document for the city and, indeed, for the country. Housing is an issue for all New Zealanders to be concerned about. If inflation in housing in Auckland is out of control, that ultimately leads to increasing interest rates, which causes ripples throughout the New Zealand economy. Making sure that we have got on top of that issue is a very serious priority for this Government. The Government has been guided particularly by the work of the Productivity Commission in looking at housing affordability. There are lots of factors, but the supply of land is an important one, so I commend the work of Nick Smith in conjunction with Auckland Council on the plans that he has got there to free up supply and get the houses built so as to make housing more affordable for Aucklanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe unitary plan is a very important part of that mix in the long term, and, depending on how good a plan it is, it may help or it may hinder Aucklanders to get into their homes. It also affects their lives in so many, many different ways. The first iteration of that plan that we saw certainly was not perfect. There is a sense that maybe the council has bitten off more than it can chew. I am certainly concerned about extra costs being put on. In the drafts that I have seen there is a requirement, I understand, to have new commercial buildings have five-star ratings for a green status. That is not exactly the way, it seems to me, to make sure that we can build properties and get businesses into factories and offices as cheaply as possible. We need to have flexibility, rather than necessarily having ideological blinkers from planners demanding that they do things x, y, and z, regardless of the cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere has also been very significant concern in the community, particularly around Epsom, where I am based, about some elements of the intensification. There is a real balance to be struck between spreading out and intensifying. I am not sure that it has got it right, and again I am concerned about some of the ideological blinkers of some of the planners who, if they are not carefully controlled, could lead to the housing dreams of many New Zealanders being lost. So I am amazed that anybody would think it would be a good idea to make the plan operative immediately on notification, given the size of the task and the scale of it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d05f3552c16246df8f11aa7ff04bec4d\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Not operative\u2014legal weight. It\u2019s different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8bad92a70b4a36846c1cec8dbd8ba8\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or to have legal weight, even. I think the Government has absolutely got it right in not taking that step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot of complaints from Mr Twyford and others, moving to the issue of the hearings panel, that somehow the council should be appointing all the hearings panel people. That would be, I think, a dreadful outcome. They are setting the rules. It is very important that this process has clear independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c930fffdf7f440da76980b1be0b403f\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Arrogance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4c037245a3a455a874a882dae14cb67\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It has nothing to do with arrogance. It is about making sure that Aucklanders, in a plan that will affect their lives over the next three or four decades and that has been proposed by the Auckland Council\u2014very strong direction from the Auckland Council about what it wants to do. It is about intensification. It is about all sorts of plans and theories. It is very important that Aucklanders can see that there is an independent group of highly qualified people who can go through that plan line by line. The council can advocate for its argument, but people can see that there is strong independence there, and I think that is absolutely appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe Local Government and Environment Committee did hear a lot of submissions on this, and we have made some significant changes around some of the opportunities for reviewing some of the hearings panel\u2019s decisions. So if the hearings panel is making a recommendation outside the scope of submissions, then it has to make it very clear that it is. Then we recommended changes to section 150, inserted by clause 125, which I think are important to provide a clear right of appeal to the Environment Court where the Auckland Council has amended a provision recommended by the hearings panel. We also recommended enabling a merit-based appeal to the Environment Court where the hearings panel makes a recommendation identified as out of scope, because people were concerned that, in the original plan, if the hearings panel just dreamed up something new and there had not been debate, and suddenly the panel passed it and the council agreed, then we would have a lack of appeal rights. So we have made those changes. We are also aware of the concern about the combined effects of section 139, inserted by clause 125. We have made significant changes, and on that basis I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002263be68a7439f4e098833e9e74712aaf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263be68a7439f4e098833e9e74712aaf3\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 2 of the Resource Management Reform Bill. There are two parts of this bill that Labour has been particularly concerned about. One we have addressed, and addressed unsuccessfully, in Part 1 of the bill, and that was around protection of trees. The second part that concerns us is actually the swipe at local democracy that is contained in Part 2, which is the bit under discussion at the moment and which covers Auckland transitional provisions. Before I get on to clause 125, which I want to deal with in some detail, I want to first address clause 124, which talks about transitional regulations. Transitional regulations are always problematic, and it is my great hope that one day the National members of the Regulations Review Committee will allow us to do an inquiry into transitional regulations, because they are the place where the devil lies. In other words, they do contain the detail of a bill. We are all familiar with that expression that the devil is in the detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ETransitional provisions do allow Governments to put in by regulation something that does not come before this House for scrutiny. This was one of our concerns originally. It caused us to draw attention to this in the Local Government and Environment Committee minority report, in the commentary at the beginning of the amended Resource Management Reform Bill as it now sits in front of the Committee. In that minority report, we said that we originally had concerns over this bill because it vested in the Minister the power to make regulations that could conceivably pervert the original intention of the Resource Management Act in one of these \u201CHenry VIII\u201D provisions. But that power was amended by the Local Government and Environment Committee, so some change was achieved by the select committee. In particular, clause 124 inserts subsection (6A) in section 5, which states: \u201CIn addition, the Minister for the Environment must not recommend the making of regulations under subsection (4) unless he or she has first consulted the Auckland Council and the hearings panel (if it exists then) on the proposed regulations.\u201D That is an improvement, but we are still left puzzled as to why legislation to turn other transitional provisions into primary legislation, such as the Local Government (Auckland Council) Amendment Bill (No 2), which was introduced to the House for its first reading on 5 June of this year, before this report\u2014the report on the Resource Management Reform Bill\u2014had even been submitted to the House. So that legislation I have just referred to\u2014the Local Government (Auckland Council) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u2014should be blended with the work in this bill in order to ensure that unnecessary amendment is not required later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EMy particular concerns lie with clause 125, which is very substantial. Clause 125 goes on for page after page after page, because it inserts a new Part 4. So while we debate today Parts 1, 2, and 3 of the bill, this is, in Part 2, the addition or the insertion of a new Part 4. This is where some of our concerns become obvious, because they are about the role of the Auckland Council\u2014a democratically elected body\u2014to have some say in the process for development of the first combined plan for Auckland Council. Of course, the Auckland Council has had a very robust and quite profound public consultation process over the development of its plan. That is to be commended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhat I want to do is speak in favour of Eugenie Sage\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 281. Quite simply, and yet quite profoundly, she seeks to insert the words \u201Cand Auckland Council\u201D into every part of this clause, which is clause 125, section 115, but also the new section 155 of the Resource Management Act, where the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Conservation have powers. She has recommended in the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 281 that at every point where the Minister of Conservation and the Minister for the Environment have powers, the Auckland Council be included in those powers, and that there be some sharing of power in the decisions that pertain to both of these clauses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESo first of all, in clause 125, section 115, there is the ability for Auckland Council to forward all relevant information to a specialist hearings panel appointed by the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Conservation. This is the first moment in this part of the bill where Eugenie Sage\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper seeks to insert \u201Cand Auckland Council\u201D, so that a specialist hearings panel would be appointed by the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Conservation, and the Auckland Council. This Supplementary Order Paper really begins to find its feet beyond that mention when we get to clause 125, section 155, which is all about the setting up of a hearings panel. It seems to me at every point to be absolutely not just a matter of right for the people of Auckland but a matter of common sense that a body as large as the Auckland Council, representing a population as large as that, ought to be involved in the appointment of hearings panels that are going to determine whether an application is able to go ahead. So at every point in that section, and in section 157 as well, and in section 162, which involves consultation, the member Eugenie Sage simply seeks to reinforce democracy. Her Supplementary Order Paper has our support in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EFinally, I would also like to talk to the member Eugenie Sage\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 283. This is the one that talks about the scope of the hearings panel. Currently, in the bill as it is, it says that the hearings panel is not limited to making recommendations only within the scope of the submissions made on any proposed plan, but it may also make recommendations on any other matters relating to the proposed plan identified by the panel or any other person during the hearing. So, in other words, people can come and present a hearings panel with ideas that have never been considered previously, and there is the ability of the hearings panel to consider things that are outside the scope of the plan. So this could be taken to mean any number of things\u2014for example, let us add a residential development block here, when we are actually talking about a park or a green area. This really opens a floodgate, and that is closed if we can see our way clear to supporting the member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 283, which requires that the hearings panel considers only things that are within scope and not outside of it. That is a common sense and legitimate amendment to make. The bill as it stands in that respect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a076811f36694734a4d296ba0902982a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a076811f36694734a4d296ba0902982a\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a call on Part 2 of the Resource Management Reform Bill to respond to the last few speakers we have had on this issue of the appointment to the hearings panel, because I do think it is an important process and it is worth taking some time to respond to. I think that when you look at this, you have to start off by acknowledging that the process that we are developing in this legislation and through this part began because the Auckland Council came to the Government and asked us to develop an expedited process. It was the Auckland Council that wanted the Government to work with it to come up with a legislative framework that would mean that this plan would not take 10 years to be in place, but could be delivered much more quickly. We agreed that that was an important objective, so we worked with the council to deliver this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EEffectively, what it does is take what would have been a two-stage hearing process of a full round of submissions, mediations, hearings, and decisions at a council level, and then have all of that replicated once more at the Environment Court level, and combine it into one process. I do not think there is anyone who has sensibly suggested that the Auckland Unitary Plan, if it had progressed under the normal schedule 1 process, would not have gone off to the Environment Court. So what you have to consider, in actual fact, is that without this, the decisions under the unitary plan would have been made by the Environment Court. Of course, it is trite to point out that the Auckland Council does not get to appoint who sits on the Environment Court to hear the decisions. So in that respect, the fact that the Auckland Council is not the appointer of the final decision-makers is absolutely consistent with the normal schedule 1 processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIn fact, I would go so far as to say that the Auckland Council and the independent M\u0101ori Statutory Board have a greater ability to be involved in the appointment of the decision makers in this process, because there is a statutory requirement that the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Conservation must consult with both the Auckland Council and the independent M\u0101ori Statutory Board on making those appointments. So what we had to do was balance the desire of Auckland Council to be fully in charge of this process versus what we saw was about protecting the rights of Aucklanders to have confidence that the final decision-makers were independent, as they would be at the Environment Court stage. So I do not think it is a fair comparison to look at this appointment process versus an Auckland Council process. It is a far better comparison to consider how this process works versus an Environment Court process, which would have been the final decision-maker. Just to repeat: of course, in that process, Auckland Council would have had no say at all as to who the decision makers were and in the plan process. I do not think that it can be fairly suggested that it would be appropriate for the Auckland Council to have the say on who is the judge and jury on what is also its plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ESo if we are going to combine a council plan process and an Environment Court process into one, in my view, the independent oversight that the Environment Court hearing represented was a critical component of what had to be maintained. That is why the decision was reached by Cabinet, and, believe me, this was a process of ongoing discussions with the council around these very issues. So this is not something we have not considered; this was something that we worked through very carefully with the council. We listened in great detail to its representations, but it was our strong view that it was important that that independence that you would have had at the Environment Court was replicated in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ECan I just point out to members of the Committee that while this legislation is making its way through the House and without making any presumption on its progress, we have already begun some initial preliminary consultations with the council. Obviously, there is an awareness that the council is very keen to get its plan under way, and we certainly do not want to be a barrier to that, so we have begun a process of discussing with the council whom it would want to suggest for that board. Those processes are working very well. I have great confidence that we will come up with a board that has the support of all parties, and that is certainly my intention. But I did want to make the point that we absolutely considered this issue. We talked extensively with the council around it, and there are very good reasons why we made the decision that it is more appropriate that the council not be an appointer of decision makers on its plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58cdb42e8e44fa1a01c3dcf9371c32d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58cdb42e8e44fa1a01c3dcf9371c32d\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you for that contribution from the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the Environment. I think there is still room for this plan to be appealed to the Environment Court, and that is in the bill. It is where the council does not agree with the decision of the hearings panel, or where the hearings panel makes a decision that is outside the scope of the submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EI would like to say that this bill, the Resource Management Reform Bill, and how it impacts on the Auckland Unitary Plan is basically another classic example of Auckland being discriminated against. We have seen this time and time and time again with this Government. We have seen it with the Auckland Housing Accord, we have seen it with the Land Transport Management Act, and we are seeing it now with the unitary plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe hearings panel will be appointed by this Government. I acknowledge the Minister\u2019s comments that there will be consultation with the council, but at the end of the day the panel will be appointed by the Government. In every other council and with every other unitary plan, it is the council that determines those who will hear it. This is Auckland being discriminated against. The hearings panel can make recommendations on issues that are outside the scope of submissions, which is not terribly democratic, given that no one will have commented on those issues that are being raised by them. On the other hand the bill explicitly prevents the council from doing the same. It is not allowed to make decisions on evidence that has not been through the hearings panel, so it is pretty clear where the Government places its faith. It places its faith in the appointees whom it has appointed to hear the Auckland plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EI would also suggest that this Government is seeking to undermine local government in Auckland through the recommendations that it is making, and it has actually stated them pretty clearly in the Local Government and Environment Committee\u2019s report. The recommendations say that \u201C\u2026 section 139 [makes] it clear that the hearings panel must specify where it is making a recommendation outside the scope of submissions,\u201D, and later on in that same paragraph it says: \u201C[We] recommend amending section 143 to prohibit the council, in making its decisions, from considering new evidence or any other material that was not available to the hearings panel. This is intended to reduce the likelihood of the council making decisions based on inappropriate political lobbying, and ensure that it follows fair process \u2026\u201D. This is really interesting. I will just read it again. It is to not make decisions \u201Cbased on inappropriate political lobbying,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThis is the same Government that is making a law on the International Convention Centre with a process that was fairly truncated, as well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255b2843a1848409c97f77c43a58f649f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cfcf8e6be8b4ae4bce48d77a48b49ee\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE\u003C/span\u003E: I am coming back to the bill in a second. I was using that as an example of inappropriate lobbying\u2014the sort that this Government seeks to avoid by restricting Auckland Council in its decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe hearings panel is able to have extended decision-making powers, and my colleague Eugenie Sage spoke about this as well. The ability for the hearings panel to make decisions on things that may not be included in the submissions basically comes down to its plan making, rather than it blurring the division between plan making and interfering. I think we need to take into account the fact that these panel members will not be appointed by the city council and they will be making decisions based on their own judgment. It is not something that happens in other areas when they are considering their own unitary plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe other area that I want to comment on is the fact that this bill does not actually take any real notice of the Auckland Spatial Plan. The Auckland Spatial Plan, the 30-year plan that was developed with huge input from people right across Auckland and with enormous effort\u2014and, actually, at huge cost as well to the Auckland Council, because it was directed under the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act\u2014determines and gives a broad outline of where and how our city should develop over 30 years. Under the previous Act, which said that Auckland had to do this, we were given a time frame that was incredibly tight. At the start of that process, when I was actually a Waiheke local board member, we were told the time frame and we were also told that in other cities like Vancouver this took 8 years to get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E Auckland Council has done an amazing job to deliver, as required by the Government, an incredibly useful and sensible plan, which we should be giving weight to. We should be having a unitary plan that is consistent with it. All it says in this bill is that the Government will give regard to it, and I guess that is actually something that, again, undermines democracy in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThere is one part of this bill that I do agree with, and that is leaving the Hauraki Gulf islands unitary plan out of it. And, yes, of course I am slightly biased, being a resident of the Hauraki Gulf. The Hauraki Gulf islands are actually in a much better position, because we went through a democratic process to get our plan. It was quite a painful process, I have to admit. There were thousands and thousands of submissions. The hearings took over 2\u00BD years. I would like to acknowledge in this Committee Mr Ray Ericson, who was on that hearings panel. He was the chair of our community board and then our local board. He was an elected representative hearing from his community what the issues were and how we wanted to develop our island communities for the future. It strikes me as incredibly unfair that Auckland\u2014this new super-city, which was created by this Government through its legislation, requiring Auckland to jump through so many hoops\u2014and its people do not get the same access to democracy. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022af0483c2fb724d99b65c8f7b2706e426\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af0483c2fb724d99b65c8f7b2706e426\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for this opportunity. I am happy to take a short call on Part 2, \u201CLocal Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Act 2010\u201D, of the Resource Management Reform Bill. My colleague Maryan Street identified that the theme that seems to be emanating in our debate here on Part 2 is the need to protect local democracy and also the need for central government, or this Government, to recognise that local government has a significant role to play\u2014that local government does have a viable role to play in the development of our communities. I think that when talking about Part 2, it is fair that we need to reflect on how Auckland came to be a super-city. It was from this Government imposing upon Auckland a structure that many Aucklanders did not feel comfortable with. It was rushed at the time, and, really, it was designed, according to many of the communities, to flock off the assets that the Auckland community has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae179a3d36f478eb0fdb68aacfe7220\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Flog off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb7e053c833b4d01859bf430469c6cb5\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Flog off. It is fair to say that the community rejected the proposal by this Government and elected Len Brown as mayor. I think it is important to acknowledge the significant work that the mayor and Auckland Council, including its chief executive officer, have had to go through and undergo, particularly when you consider they brought together eight local territorial authorities\u2014significant units in themselves\u2014and tried to make that work despite the difficult situation that they were in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI highlight two things\u2014the need to protect local democracy and the need to recognise local government as a significant and viable partner in the development of our community\u2014because I listened to the response of the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the Environment, and that gives away the focus of this particular Government. It does not at all want to recognise that communities have a right to make their local decisions. I think that we are recognising the importance of local government as a viable partner in development, so I would ask the Minister whether she would be prepared to respond with regard to the submission made by Local Government New Zealand and say whether she considered any of the recommendations that were put to her in that submission, and whether any parts of that submission were included in Part 2. The submission of Local Government New Zealand highlighted five key matters, with reference to clause 122, in Part 2: the moratorium on variations under the proposed section 121; the hearings panel not being limited to making recommendations within the scope of submissions under proposed section 139; the weight the hearings panel must give to the Auckland Plan for its recommendations under proposed section 140; what rules in the Auckland combined plan will have immediate legal effect under proposed section 147, and the related question of what weight the plan is to have on and from notification; and the members of the hearings panel under proposed section 155. Those are what Local Government New Zealand in its submission highlighted as key factors pertaining to Part 2. I ask the Minister whether she would be prepared to respond as to whether any of those recommendations were considered in her papers to Cabinet and whether any of those recommendations have been implemented as part of the amendments to the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWith the proposed section 121, \u201CRestrictions on amendments or variations to Auckland combined plan\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76e8d6ce92640beb816194a8334244d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: That is in Part 1. Clause 121 is in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0914351d174b229a29b8aa86b4dfad\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. Yes. I suppose what I am referring to is that although the 3-year notification that has been given to Auckland is, I understand, accepted by the Auckland Council, the moratorium removes the tool, which means \u201Cthat Auckland Council is unable to address the material information or a change in circumstances that arise after the plan is notified.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELet me go to proposed section 139, then, given that that is in Part 2. The submission of Local Government New Zealand says: \u201CThese sections provide that the hearings panel is not limited to making recommendations within the scope of submissions and that Auckland Council may accept such recommendations. This is a significant departure from the existing law\u2014clause 10(1) of Schedule 1 requires that a consent authority give a decision on the provisions and matters raised in submissions. There is established case law on this specific provision.\u201D That is a significant matter that Local Government New Zealand is recommending, and its recommendation is to delete proposed sections 139(2) and 143(3). Again, I would ask whether the Minister considered any of the recommendations made by Local Government New Zealand in the papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMy colleague Eugenie Sage has a Supplementary Order Paper about the make-up of the hearings panel. I think the proposal in the bill is a significant departure. If the Government refuses to accept the recommendation made by Local Government New Zealand, which is that Ministers and the Auckland Council jointly establish the hearings panel, that in itself sends a message that this Government, despite what it might say about partnership, continues to refuse to recognise that local councils\u2014Auckland Council in this case\u2014have a significant role to play and that they have a right to be able to be part of this decision making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESo what we are saying is that the Government and Auckland Council should partner in appointing the hearings panel. I have often heard this Government talk about partnering with local government, but, from what I have heard the Minister say tonight\u2014if she is saying that none of the recommendations made by Local Government New Zealand has been adopted, and that none of the recommendations by Local Government New Zealand has been considered or included in any of the papers that she has tabled to Cabinet, then that sends a very powerful message indeed that the Government is only talking about partnership but in reality the theme of this is that it is going to gut local government. It aims to not recognise at all that local government is a viable partner in the development in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u002206d4002358584d7fb572e6e961ae545c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206d4002358584d7fb572e6e961ae545c\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Resource Management Reform Bill, \u201CLocal Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Act 2010\u201D, includes a number of provisions to fast track the Auckland Unitary Plan process, which we support in principle. Minister Amy Adams was correct in saying that it was the Auckland Council that came to the Government and requested that the Government consider a legislative amendment to enable the unitary plan to become operative in a shorter time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI totally agree with what my Green colleague Denise Roche said and with what Mr Su\u2019a William Sio just said, which was that we find it difficult to follow the logic in provisions that allow the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Conservation, rather than the Auckland Council, to appoint the hearing commissioner and set their terms of reference. This is undemocratic and it is an insult to the mandate given to the elected city councillors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI would like to focus on the submissions, because it is very important for us to reflect on the concerns of those submitters across the board. Overall, we have received 97 submissions relating to the Auckland combined plan. Of the 97 submissions, only 9.3 percent were in support and 14.4 percent were in support with amendments, but, overall, 66 percent were in opposition. The predominant concern held by submitters was whether the broad scope of the regulation-making power included the ability to override parts of the Resource Management Act, and a number of submitters had expressed that concern. The provision is outside good legislation principles and may be unconstitutional. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESubmissions also raised concerns that the provision would generate uncertainty and could open the Government or Minister to lobbying to change the process for preparing the plan midway through the hearing. Several submitters made suggestions as to how to further narrow the scope of the regulation-making power, including, for instance, a recommendation from Vector to insert a new subsection restricting that power to addressing only unforeseen situations or issues that arise during the preparation of the first Auckland combined plan. So it is not about how the National Government introduces legislative changes or about how important or desirable those changes are; it is more about the submitters and how to help the National Government to remedy the situation everybody is in, courtesy of the unconstitutional practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI would like to bring to the attention of the Committee a legal opinion by Sir Geoffrey Palmer. The New Zealand Fish and Game Council made available a copy of the very well-researched legal opinion by Sir Geoffrey Palmer. Basically, he summarises that, firstly, \u201CMany of the \u201Cprocess-oriented\u201D proposals will deliver improvements to the current process under the RMA with limited impacts on environmental protection.\u201D That is a very balanced view. Secondly, he advises that \u201CThe proposed changes to Part 2 will significantly and seriously undermine environmental protection under the RMA. These changes are largely unnecessary and will lead to greater uncertainty and cost in the application and interpretation of the RMA.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EMore important, I think it is very important for everybody to remember that the Resource Management Act underpins all Kiwi values. The changes in the current bill destabilise our social perception of what it means to be a Kiwi and puts at risk an economy progressively built on the foundation of the $14 billion \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D and \u201Cclean, green\u201D brands. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 285 and 324 in the name of the Hon Amy Adams to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223211b172c9734a1ab590380510571f01\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000437\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 281 in the name of Eugenie Sage to clause 125 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d7eb21a4aa294b4f92b9491f78b7adbd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000438\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 283 in the name of Eugenie Sage to clause 125 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cef87fa3ca3e4e9da6b963879f8fb4cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022243526e8ee7d4cd2b929e240a7760b13\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002294cb35e519f146d7ad9bde9535dbe603\u0022\u003EPart 3  Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act 1987\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a8eb3ee8fbf44ab09f306444315eb8b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266d0481d39484f9a8cc662d654d2ebc6\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000441\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222bcb156b4dc24d0a8457869d86f52a55\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000443\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 285 in the name of the Hon Amy Adams to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a90ba51c450d4cb3beb3f11baac7ec59\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002290d41af4f95d4850a74c61f04d6a49fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b4d1edf843c40568f467833072511e0\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222cb7aef2baca4615b98c6c2a642c021e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242633a1d54f545c683c9abfa9d68e86c\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cae302f53e3747a0a5c843e19c2584f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cae302f53e3747a0a5c843e19c2584f5\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This is the title and commencement clauses stage. Much of the Resource Management Reform Bill is focused on addressing perceived problems with the Resource Management Act in terms of timeliness and costs associated with processes under the Act, but when the Ministry for the Environment survey of local authorities showed that 95 percent of resource consent applications were processed on time and only 6 percent were notified, the bill is a solution looking for a problem. This bill, in my submission, should be called the \u201CResource Management (Implement Ideology and Ignore the Evidence) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ECouncils, in making submissions to the Local Government and Environment Committee, were concerned that the bill introduced a number of measures that would increase the cost and complexity of decision making under the Act with both resource consents and policy and plan making. As the Hamilton City Council said: \u201CMany of the changes proposed by the Bill would result in more complex processes, which appear to contradict the \u2018streamlining\u2019 that is the purpose of the changes. Many of the proposed changes [in the bill] are too complicated, too prescriptive and will involve substantially more administration by council staff.\u201D Of course, it is the councils that will bear the additional cost of administering these processes, and it will be the councils that will get blamed for that, not the Minister for the Environment. The bill is making it much more complex through things like the 6-month deadline for submissions on medium-sized consents to be decided and the very complex system of deadlines that is now part of the bill. It ignores the fact that in the existing Act we already have penalty provisions for councils where they have to repay a portion of the application fees to the applicants if certain time frames are not met. It is going to mean that this bill ignores that. It means that council processes, by getting more complicated, potentially impose extra costs on ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt will also be ignoring the evidence, because the select committee heard that it is often the applicants who are responsible for the delays, not the council. Councils like the Palmerston North City Council looked at and compared the processes for considering an application to the board of inquiry\u2014in that case, the Turitea wind farm, where the board was called in. That took well over the 9-month deadline that the Act provides for. It became a very legalistic, adversarial, and expensive formal hearing process. When you get hearings happening at the council level, that is more informal. The community can be more involved. The Motorimu wind farm, which was considered by the Palmerston North City Council rather than a board of inquiry, took about the same length of time, but it was much less legalistic, less stressful for the community, less intimidatory, and a better result was reached. It is provisions like clause 88, which impose these time-management provisions, that make the bill unduly complex and cumbersome, which is why we think it should be called the \u201CResource Management (More Prescription, Cost, and Complexity for Councils) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAs Sir Geoffrey Palmer has noted, the Resource Management Act, at 796 pages, is already twice the length of the Act when it was introduced in 1991. The additional provisions in this bill, which is a very thick bill, will actually add to that complexity. They are not about simplifying and streamlining. They are anti-environment, anti-community, and anti-democratic. That is why it is a bill that is about ideology rather than the smoke screen that the Minister and the Government have put up around it being about simplicity. It is tilting the playing field in favour of development. It is making it more complex. Two titles for the bill would be the \u201CResource Management (Implement Ideology and Ignore the Evidence) Amendment Bill\u201D or the \u201CResource Management (More Prescription, Cost, and Complexity for Councils) Amendment Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203d9a0b18973478e99664303123ea74e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223edcaee4f8474de998e53c44ba30a7ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000450\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Resource Management Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 284.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000451\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000452\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022816eda05be5c43898743f72baff62cfe\u0022\u003EResource Management Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022816eda05be5c43898743f72baff62cfe\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022816eda05be5c43898743f72baff62cfe\u0022\u003ELocal Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa6ab3ebe6b74e1ca70858bd36569a33\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00222b1753797f074930814babbf260b234b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b1753797f074930814babbf260b234b\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Resource Management Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This legislation makes a number of changes to the Resource Management Act that are designed to improve efficiency, enable growth, provide good environmental outcomes, and ensure decisions about resource management are reached in a timely and cost-effective way. The proposals in this legislation build on the positive results that have already been achieved by the Government\u2019s resource management reforms to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWhen National became the Government in 2008 we began a programme of reform to ensure that our planning law was about the sustainable management of our resources, and timely high-quality decisions for New Zealanders and our job-creating businesses. The first stage of reform in 2009 involved 150 amendments to simplify and streamline the Resource Management Act in order to reduce costs, uncertainties, and delays. This has improved outcomes for the environment, supported business investment, and encouraged stronger economic growth. These reforms reduced late consents from 31 percent in 2008 to just 5 percent in 2011. That is a great achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe 2009 reforms created the Environmental Protection Authority, which enables the efficient processing of major urban and infrastructure projects that are crucially important to New Zealanders. This process has led to the Waterview and Transmission Gully projects both being consented within 9 months. Previously, these critical transport projects could have been deadlocked for years. The trade protection provisions introduced by the 2009 reforms have also helped tackle the so-called supermarket wars, where supermarket groups and other big retailers spent years and years and millions of dollars fighting each other in the courts over their respective expansion plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis legislation builds on those successes and makes several new and important contributions to improving the resource management system in a number of key areas. Firstly, the legislation enacts a 6-month time limit for the processing of resource consent applications for medium-sized projects. This policy is an election manifesto commitment and will mean that applicants and communities will have greater certainty about the development of regionally significant projects. Currently, it takes an average of 9 months to process applications for medium-sized projects, and there is no prescribed time limit at the moment for the overall process under the Resource Management Act. These sorts of applications are typically for new industrial developments, subdivisions, retail developments, and regional infrastructure. Collectively, annual investment in these sorts of projects represents hundreds of millions of dollars in infrastructure and capital costs. Reducing the time it takes to process these consents by about a third will provide increased certainty and economic benefits to communities and applicants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe legislation also contains provisions to develop a one-off hearings process for Auckland\u2019s first unitary plan. This streamlined process is essential for developing and implementing a consistent planning framework for New Zealand\u2019s largest city. Thanks to this process, it is estimated that the Auckland Unitary Plan will be in place within 3 years from notification, rather than the 10 years it would take without these improvements. Auckland\u2019s economy is simply too important to wait 10 years for the plan to become operational. Ensuring that a high-quality plan is delivered swiftly will allow work on pressing Auckland issues, such as housing affordability, to take place sooner rather than later. These significant time savings will provide certainty and have real benefits for both Aucklanders and the country as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EAnother significant change introduced in this bill is a specific requirement for local decision makers to undertake more robust cost-benefit analyses under section 32 of the Resource Management Act when considering plan changes and proposals. A requirement for decision makers to consider both the positive and negative impacts on employment and economic growth reflects the far-reaching impact that plan changes and proposals can have on the wider economy. The scale and scope of the analyses will depend on the size of the plan change or proposal, which will mean that although changes of significant impact will require in-depth scrutiny, decision makers will not have to spend large amounts of time on minor requests and proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe legislation also makes important changes to facilitate the Government\u2019s programme to deliver high-quality independent environmental reporting in New Zealand. This change will ensure that decision makers and the public will have access to high-quality environmental monitoring and data. This is an important first step for improving the quality of local government planning and decision making. At present our councils collect their data independently of each other and use their own methodologies to collect the data. There is no common national framework for best practice in how environmental data should be collected either in terms of methodologies or standards. The Government is currently working collaboratively with councils to develop a consistent framework so that the results of environmental monitoring can be accurately compared across different areas and provide a true representative picture of our core environmental domains. If this voluntary approach is not adequately implemented on a collaborative basis, the legislation provides a new regulation-making power for the Minister for the Environment to develop a common monitoring framework across the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe overall purpose of the changes in this legislation is for decisions about resource management to be processed more swiftly, providing certainty for applicants and communities as opposed to necessarily changing what the final outcome will be. The legislation also makes changes that will help make our system more workable, fair, and accountable in order to facilitate better economic outcomes for our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe legislation, in turn, also clarifies how councils may make rules in relation to tree protection. A rule in a district plan may only restrict the felling, trimming, removal, or damaging of trees on private property in an urban environment if the allotments have been identified by street address or legal description of the land and the trees are described in a schedule to the plan. Groups of trees that cover adjacent allotments may be identified if they form a cluster, grove, or line. Let me be clear: this does not affect the ability for regional councils or district councils to identify areas of significant vegetation or to create and use bush protection zones. However, if the trees within these areas in urban environment allotments are identified in a district plan, the rules will need to comply with the requirements of this amendment. Most councils around New Zealand already operate in this way, but for those that do not, the provision will come into force after 2 years to allow those that have used blanket rules to update their schedules if they wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIn addition to the changes outlined in this legislation, I intend to introduce a further resource management reform bill later this year. This next bill will make our planning system much more efficient and effective. Making our planning system more proactive, instead of reactive, is also a key goal of the next stage of resource management reform. Ensuring that more planning decisions are made up front in the plan-making stage, as opposed to being continually relitigated through the consenting process, will make our planning system more efficient and provide greater certainty to communities and to applicants. Reforming our freshwater management system will also bring positive environmental and community benefits. Introducing collaborative freshwater planning will mean that communities, resource users, and councils can work together to set limits and objectives for their local freshwater resources that will be more durable and less likely to be prone to expensive untimely litigation. In the meantime, however, the current legislation before the House will make discreet and welcome improvements to the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s comprehensive Resource Management Act reforms will deliver a system that meets the needs of our communities and our regions by enabling jobs and growth while also providing for the strong environmental protections that we expect in a timely and cost-effective way. The reforms are about breaking the cycle of delay after delay and delivering timely decisions that provide greater certainty to all those involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EDespite what our opponents say, these reforms are not about growth at any cost. I have always said that we have to balance our economic opportunities along with our environmental responsibilities. That is at the heart of our Government\u2019s approach to planning law. It gives me great pleasure to commend the bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3b0ba1f6c31464c9be109b6517bf7b7\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022feae13e787e5476e85c6a4ad8da7838c\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f475450f8535498b803b24b85b93a7f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f475450f8535498b803b24b85b93a7f6\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for there to be a question time at 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 August and on Thursday, 29 August 2013 and for questions to be lodged in the normal manner pursuant to Standing Order 378.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022dea39bd85f8c4954bf08ddd1319a1019\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dea39bd85f8c4954bf08ddd1319a1019\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is no opposition. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251a083b385874367a41c2f7bd5149caa\u0022\u003EResource Management Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251a083b385874367a41c2f7bd5149caa\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251a083b385874367a41c2f7bd5149caa\u0022\u003ELocal Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002263cf841a85464f86912dce9a368b223a\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000478\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022c16dfcf853fd4609aaeaf4e7d643ff4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c16dfcf853fd4609aaeaf4e7d643ff4d\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister who has just resumed her seat, the Minister for the Environment, is not wrong. This collection of bills arising from the Resource Management Reform Bill now before the House for third reading is part of a grand plan. Be in no doubt that this Government does have a plan for the environment and for all of those pieces of legislation that impede, in its view, economic development and so must be undermined or cut away or diluted or defused in some way. What we have seen is this legislation take its place alongside reforms of the Local Government Act, for example, which strip local government responsibilities back, basically, to roads, rubbish, and rates, and takes away responsibility to deal with social and economic and cultural and environmental well-being in local communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThat is not too distant from this legislation, the Resource Management Reform Bill in its three composite parts, because all of these things are of a piece. In fact, I commend the Government for being so coherent about it. Although it has been trying to get one piece of ideology through at a time, there is no doubt it has been working to a plan. Some of the things that it considers to be the stumbling blocks to progress and development in our country are some of the things that New Zealanders hold most dear. What we see in this piece of legislation is a movement that builds on the previous amendments, to which the Minister referred in her speech, and will be followed by an additional piece of legislation, again to which the Minister referred in her speech, which we might expect to see in the House in October of this year. All of these things, piece by piece, little by little, are having a cumulative effect on our environmental protections and on the things that New Zealanders hold dear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to begin the main part of my rebuttal of this legislation by going back to the kind of\u2014I want to say urban mythology but it is also rural\u2014mythology on which the presumptions of this Government in changing the Resource Management Act have been based. There is a mythology out there, and the Minister uses it quite readily when it suits her, that it is very hard to get anything done under the Resource Management Act\u2014it is really prohibitively ponderous, expensive, and slow. The example that she uses frequently is the example of somebody building a deck on their house. That is held up as one of the main blocks to progress. That is not what this Government is about. It is not about the deck on the house; it is about very substantial economic development, whether it is construction or extraction or any other kind of industry, which in its view should not be impeded by the intrinsic, the inherent worth of the physical environment that we so enjoy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt is as if the Government has not quite worked out that our environment in New Zealand is our economy. The environment is the economy. It does not matter which way you slice and dice it, our environment is our economic well-being. It does not matter whether it is just vegetables grown in gardens or it is comprehensive plans for development of renewable energies. These things contribute to our economic and our social well-being. I just wanted to draw out the mythology that this is based on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESome of the telling facts from the Minister\u2019s own ministry are not often referred to in the Minister\u2019s discussion, or the discussion of Government members opposite, of the bill and these changes to it. They ignore the fact that under the Resource Management Act in 2010 and 2011, 36,154 resource consent applications were processed through to a decision. Of these, 0.56 percent, that is, 203, of resource consent applications were declined\u2014so 0.5 percent. Four percent, 1,414, of resource consent applications were publicly notified, allowing third parties to comment on them. Four percent were publicly notified, which meant that people could make comment on them. Two percent, 849, of resource consent applications were notified to only affected parties for their comments. Two percent of resource consent applications were notified to only affected parties for their comments. One percent, that is, 357, of resource consent decisions were appealed. Local authority officers acting under delegated authority made 91 percent of decisions on resource consent applications, and 95 percent of resource consent applications were processed on time\u2014within the 21 working days that the Resource Management Act allowed. These are the facts that the Ministry for the Environment itself declares are the facts around the application of the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESo why is there the perpetuation of this mythology that the Resource Management Act gets in the way of development? Yes, there are cases. The supermarket on the North Shore is certainly a case in point, and I am pleased that that has been resolved satisfactorily. But that is not the Resource Management Act\u2019s fault, actually. There were some malcontents on both sides of that argument who were keen to see the matter drawn out\u2014certainly on one side of the argument they were keen to see that project drawn out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that although there may be room to improve and streamline the Resource Management Act\u2014and we have no objection to improvements to the process\u2014a wholesale, staged implementation of a plan against the Resource Management Act is not justified. There is no justification and this will become even more obvious when the Minister\u2019s third attempt at undermining the Resource Management Act comes to this House later this year. This is all of a part. This is all of a pattern, and the thing that the National Government cannot tolerate is that New Zealanders have come to appreciate, even more than they have previously, the intrinsic and amenity values of our environment. It is not satisfactory now to put a tunnel through from the Dart River to Milford, so the Minister of Conservation chose not to. The basis on which the Minister for the Environment proceeds with these wholesale onslaughts on the Resource Management Act is not proven, is not demonstrated, and is based simply on ideology over environmental protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E This will be another weakening of our environmental protections in New Zealand. People are aware now of what the Government is doing and its intentions with the Resource Management Act. Turning it into an economic development Act is not what most New Zealanders want to have happen. The Government needs to think\u2014if it is committed only to jobs it needs to think of the jobs that can be created in clean technology and ways that preserve and enhance our environment rather than constantly running over it and asphalting it. These are not pieces of legislation that are going protect our environment and enhance it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00228959dafbe1104a9e98946917d790328e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228959dafbe1104a9e98946917d790328e\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose of the Resource Management Act is to promote the sustainable management of our natural and physical resources. It is also our major planning tool, so it is important that it works well. It is important that it supports the environment, it safeguards the environment, and it provides the rules that underpin the well-being and the future of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe Resource Management Amendment Bill is focused on improving the functioning of this legislation so that we can get the best possible outcomes for the environment and support economic growth. There is an old saying that justice delayed is justice denied, and that is relevant here because long, drawn-out, clumsy decision-making processes add absolutely no value to the environmental outcome. They stymie economic growth, they stop development, and, most important, they hamper the creation of jobs. When it comes to planning and consenting we all want consistent, good-quality, timely decisions, and this bill will encourage that. It will encourage time-effective and efficient decision-making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe bill requires better-quality analysis in section 32 reports. These reports underpin important local government decision-making on plan changes and projects, but they tend to be inconsistent in quality. The new bill requires much more careful consideration and more robust cost-benefit analysis. In particular, analysts must consider how their decision will affect economic growth and the creation of jobs. Some submitters were concerned about the time and expense this sort of work may take for councils, but we made it very clear that the analysis should match the size and the scale of the projects. The Local Government and Environment Committee also amended the legislation to ensure that both the positives and the negatives of the economy in economic growth must be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides for a 6-month time limit on consents for medium-sized projects. When you look at consents presently most of them get through in about 9 months, but some take many, many more months\u2014a lot longer. We believe that a quality decision can be produced within those 6 months. The quality means that there is no loss to the environment, but a consistent 6-month timetable will provide significant cost savings, and, again, will help increase job opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation major regional projects will have the option of direct referral to the Environment Court. They may still choose to go through the local government process, but unless they are in exceptional circumstances councils must support their applications to go directly to the Environment Court. This will avoid the time and the costs of duplication of processes. Overall, the changes in Part 1 of the Resource Management Amendment Bill will provide better, new mechanisms to deliver better-quality environmental outcomes in a timely, cost-effective way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe second bill arising from the Resource Management Reform Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, provides a streamlined process for making operational the Auckland Unitary Plan. These changes will mean that the Auckland Council will be able to deliver its plan within 3 years as opposed to up to 10 years, which would have been done under business-as-usual processes. This plan will have a huge significance for Auckland. It is the largest and most complex planning exercise ever undertaken in the country, and is expected to involve over 10,000 submissions, so the Auckland Council requested a new legislative framework. This framework will combine the normal two-tier process of council hearings for consenting and planning with appeals to the Environment Court. It will combine them in a one-step process, but it still allows for all the opportunities for mediation and negotiation. It will deliver good outcomes in a faster and more efficient way. It will be good for Auckland to get its plan in place within the next 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI would finally like to just comment on the amendments to section 360 of the Resource Management Act in the Resource Management Amendment Bill. This Government is particularly interested in facilitating better environmental reporting. At present regional and local councils do significant environmental testing and monitoring and they collect a lot of environmental information, but there is no consistent framework around that information and how that information should be presented. The amendments in this bill allow for the introduction of regulations. These regulations will be agreed in consultation with the councils and require local authorities to monitor according to specific priorities and methods. This will provide us with the data so that we will be able to deliver much-improved environmental reporting, and I strongly support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis legislation is designed to safeguard the environment but provides rules that work better for all New Zealanders. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1f71aff53784b0dbb2174b64c3e2668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1f71aff53784b0dbb2174b64c3e2668\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I carry on where the Hon Maryan Street left off in, I think, usefully characterising this legislation\u2014the Resource Management Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill\u2014and locating it in an agenda that this National Government has pursued for several years now through a number of different pieces of legislation. It is part of an agenda to undermine and strip away regulations that are designed to both protect the natural environment in this country, and to manage the trade-offs and decisions that we make as a nation and as communities around development processes that guarantee the right of individuals and communities to have a say in development processes. The rationale of this Government for that whole agenda is to promote economic growth\u2014never mind that the Resource Management Act is built on the very notion of sustainability, and never mind that the Resource Management Act recognises that the protection of the natural environment is a higher good that we are all entrusted with for the sake of future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think Maryan Street was quite right to place this legislation in the context of that very deliberate campaign over the last few years to undermine the environmental bottom lines in the Resource Management Act and to undermine the public\u2019s right to have a say. There are now many, many pieces of legislation that can be characterised in that way. She was right also to point out that the Government\u2019s claims about the processing times of consents under the Resource Management Act by councils, while not perfect, are far from the bogey that National has made them out to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI suppose the thing that really irks me about this is that the so-called Business Growth Agenda of this Government is reduced here to trimming away and undermining environmental regulation, supposedly as a way of spurring economic growth\u2014of trading off economic growth against our natural environment. Instead of doing the hard work, instead of adopting policies that would genuinely promote innovation by New Zealand firms and would genuinely encourage and support New Zealand\u2019s firms to export and sell our ideas and our goods and services on global markets, instead of looking at ways that we can add value to an export economy that is so dominated by primary production, instead of looking at ways that we can build a modern manufacturing sector in this country that would reverse the structural imbalance that we have in the economy, instead of seriously and proactively investing in a much more skilled workforce that would raise the productivity that we desperately need, and instead of looking for all those kinds of smart ways that would allow the State to enable high-value economic development\u2014instead of doing those things\u2014this kind of obsessive tinkering with the Resource Management Act and weakening the protections that have been so much a part of the fabric of this country seem to be pretty much all we can expect from the Government these days. I think it is a little depressing that that is what it comes down to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to touch on two specific parts of this legislation: the Auckland Unitary Plan provisions and the tree provisions. I think the Auckland Unitary Plan, in the context of local government and planning in this country, is a very, very significant development. In fact, it is an advance. It has allowed Auckland, for the first time in a generation or more, to have a serious public conversation about the future shape of the city and to tackle some of the problems that are associated with the significant population growth that Auckland continues to experience. The unitary plan and the zone changes\u2014dramatic changes of zoning\u2014right across the region will enable the intensification that Auckland desperately needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EUnless that intensified urban development takes place, then there are only two other options. One is sprawling endlessly into the countryside, where low-income families and workers are forced into cheap housing on the fringes of the city, where the costs of commuting to work every day are so prohibitive that it drives people into poverty\u2014a completely unsustainable urban development model\u2014or, secondly, urban containment, no intensification, and then astronomical increases in the price of land and the price of housing, which is what we currently see in Auckland. The unitary plan offers a way out of that. It allows Auckland to go up and out and find a new development pattern, and that is extremely significant. Because of that, because it could take up to a decade to bed in the new unitary plan under the current resource management law, and because the challenges\u2014not least in affordable housing\u2014are so acute in Auckland, we support the fast tracking of the unitary plan that is included in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut there are two key elements that we again need to put on the record that we are disappointed the Government has not taken up. One is that the Government has refused to allow the Auckland Unitary Plan to have legal weight on notification. The plan will be notified in September, very shortly, and Auckland Council, as well as requesting this fast tracking of the plan, asked that the Government on a one-off basis allow the pre-2009 Resource Management Act rules to apply, which would have meant the plan had legal weight from notification\u2014not to be operative, but simply to have legal weight. This means that the unitary plan would be taken into account by decision makers when making consenting decisions, alongside all of the other plans and statutory considerations. If the Government had just allowed that to happen, the unitary plan, with all its zoning changes and a whole raft of provisions designed to tackle affordable housing, would have taken effect almost immediately. There would have been no need for the ridiculous Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill, which the House will be debating, and all of the armoury in the unitary plan designed to deal with managing Auckland\u2019s growth\u2014bringing in new greenfield land, encouraging intensification\u2014would have taken effect immediately, and Auckland would not have to wait another 3 years and have the National Government holding back its prosperity, its development, its jobs, and its growth when dealing with affordable housing. All of that could have been avoided, and it could have taken effect from September. So that is a real lost opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to put on the record how disappointed we are that the Government has insisted on it having the sole prerogative to appoint the hearings panel that will administer this fast-tracked process for the unitary plan. It is Auckland\u2019s plan. Aucklanders will live with the consequences. Aucklanders pay the bills. Why should the democratically elected Auckland Council not at least share the responsibility for appointing the personnel on that hearings panel? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe have made it very clear that we protest vigorously against this legislation putting handcuffs on councils in terms of their ability to use effective tree protection rules. This is again a deliberate move by the National Government to make the rules so cumbersome, to wrap councils up in red tape, to add costs to ratepayers, and to make the rules so impossible and unwieldy that it will be very difficult for councils like Auckland Council to protect the urban forest in Auckland, to protect the p\u014Dhutukawa forest on the east coast of Auckland, and particularly to protect the Waitakere Ranges trees. What this legislation does is make tree protection rules unworkable, and, even though there have been some small improvements, we protest against that. Labour will not be supporting this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00223b8496b6869b4d4192a7ed714803f80c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b8496b6869b4d4192a7ed714803f80c\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E We should not be debating changes to our most important environmental law, the Resource Management Act, under urgency. We should not be having Government members moving premature closure motions to shut down the debate on Part 1 of the Resource Management Reform Bill, given that it makes so many substantive changes to the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party continues to oppose this legislation, the Resource Management Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill. We agree with the Greater Wellington Regional Council when it said in its submission: \u201CThe Bill in trying to streamline the process seems to be making things more prescriptive, less accessible to public participation and more costly for councils with no provision for additional funding support.\u201D In this third reading speech on the legislation I would like to comment on two of the proposals in it, clause 69, around cost-benefit analysis, and the changes to state of the environment reporting, because they highlight the anti-environment, anti-regulation ideology and agenda that are at the heart of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESection 32 of the Resource Management Act currently requires councils, when they are developing a plan or a policy, and the Minister for the Environment, when she is developing a national policy or a national environmental standard, to consider the benefits and the costs of those rules or regulations and other methods, and the risks of acting or not acting if there is uncertain or insufficient information. This evaluation is to ensure that the proposal is the best way to achieve the desired objective. The Green Party does not oppose these cost-benefit evaluations if they are done under the existing Act, because under the Act as it stands there is no focus on the evaluation being largely an economic evaluation. But the amending legislation, through the changes it makes through clause 69, singles out two economic effects that must be included in this cost-benefit evaluation, and they are the opportunities for economic growth and the opportunities for employment that are anticipated to be either provided or reduced. There is no mention of opportunities for environmental enhancement. As the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment said in her submission on the amending legislation: \u201CThis does not in itself say that economic effects are to be given more weight than environmental, social, and cultural effects. But the result will be that it will. Simply specifying these two economic effects while failing to specify other effects will unbalance a section 32 evaluation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThat is what this bill is all about. It is about evaluating short-term economic growth above other Part 2 matters. That is what the whole tranche of changes that the Government is making piece by piece to the Resource Management Act is about. It is about unbalancing the Act so that it becomes law that promotes short-term economic development at nature\u2019s expense, rather than promoting sustainable management. With this legislation and the upcoming legislation, the Resource Management Act will no longer be an Act that safeguards the environment and the needs of future generations. It will be all about economic development now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhat the John Key Government is doing is making the Resource Management Act into a national development Act, much like Sir Robert Muldoon did with the National Development Act at the time. That is because the decision-making criteria in the Resource Management Act are being substantially changed to promote economic growth. They fail to recognise that a healthy economy is based on a healthy environment. The changes increase ministerial powers, they centralise decision making, and they erode local democracy. They will have more decisions being made behind closed doors in the Beehive, rather than in the open around the council table. We see that with decisions like appointing the Auckland hearings panel and with the changes to state of the environment monitoring, where it will be the Minister who tells councils what they have to do in terms of environment monitoring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThese changes to section 32 and the whole cost-benefit analysis around plan making are really important because if a regional council, for example, is considering new plan rules to limit nutrient losses from dairy farming in order to protect water quality, it is going to have to analyse and quantify the economic opportunities and costs of doing this, but it will not have to specifically consider the environmental benefits, such as improving the health of a river and making it safer to swim in. It is much easier to quantify those economic costs and benefits than it is to quantify the benefits of sustaining wildlife, allowing people to go rafting down a river, or ensuring that the river is healthy to swim in. That means there will be much more of a focus on what is easily quantifiable, and much more of a reluctance for councils to introduce rules, because they know that they risk being challenged in the Environment Court if they have not done this economic analysis and if they have not quantified the costs and benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThese changes will also impose extra costs on councils. We heard at the Local Government and Environment Committee that it costs councils between $3,000 and $50,000 to do a section 32 evaluation. Because this legislation is making the economic analysis mandatory, it means that that will get first call on council funding, rather than one that evaluates the environment or cultural benefits. If the Minister was genuinely interested in improving practice under the Resource Management Act, she would get her ministry to do some generic analysis of the costs and benefits of subdivision controls and of land-use controls to protect water quality. But the interest is not in doing that; it is all about speeding up short-term decision-making in favour of development interests. It is all about making an easier ride for miners, for irrigators, for agribusiness, for dam builders, and for property developers, and that means undermining the capacity of councils to regulate and have sound rules that protect environmental quality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI would like to follow up Nicky Wagner\u2019s comments about state of the environment reporting. Certainly, we want consistent measures around doing that, but this legislation is about offloading on to councils the costs of doing state of the environment monitoring, rather than funding a robust and independent process through the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment estimated that it would cost her office about $1.6 million to employ the extra staff to do that. What does the legislation do? It allows the Minister to direct through regulation, which this Parliament will have no opportunity to scrutinise, and for the Minister to say what environmental indicators councils should use and what standards and methods they should use, but it is not about providing the funding for councils to do that. What will that mean? This will be another cost to councils, without central government providing any revenue to do that. So, once again, the Government is beating up on local authorities, but it is not providing them with the revenue to do the job when it shifts extra costs on to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe want robust state of the environment monitoring, particularly when the Government is promoting more irrigation, which is likely to reduce water quality. But what the Government is doing is making sure that we will get lesser-quality, less robust, and less independent monitoring, because the Minister is breaching the promises her predecessor made that it would be done by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and that it would be independent. Instead, she will, through this legislation, be telling councils what they have to do, without providing them with the funding that allows them to do that properly. There is a whole lack of robustness there, and councils were quick to point out in their submissions that that will, as the Palmerston North City Council said, \u201Cincrease the costs associated with monitoring at a time when many councils are struggling to meet their existing monitoring requirements due to resourcing limitations\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOnce again, this legislation is anti-environment and anti-regulation here and with the provisions around urban trees, which will make it so much more cumbersome for councils to protect urban trees by requiring them to legally identify every single tree or group of trees that they want to apply resource consent controls to. That is the thrust of this legislation and of the other legislation that the Government is going to introduce later this year. It is all about short-term economic thinking, not about a smart green economy that recognises that the environment is the basis of that economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00229ef84d3f37dd432d9f1f1838be80d1cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ef84d3f37dd432d9f1f1838be80d1cd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the third reading of the Resource Management Reform Bill, which has been divided into three parts: the Resource Management Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2), and, of course, the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill. This legislation makes four or five significant changes to what we have grown to know as the Resource Management Act. In fact, I remember a member of the Labour Party saying some 6 or 7 years ago, Marian\u2014oh, what was her surname? Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8955e3cb8e4607b7543a730c454e8f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hobbs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014048595c094ef093d27f582d12f84a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one. She said it was a beautifully crafted piece of legislation. She was in love with it, ignoring the fact that it had stopped so much legitimate development in this country. What this bill does is a number of things, as I said. First of all, the direct referral process allows notified resource consent applications to be decided by the Environment Court, bypassing the local council. The reason is that so many of these consents, if not all, that go to the council go through a process that is elongated, painful, and expensive, and ends up in the Environment Court anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe 6-month consenting provision in this bill allows medium-sized projects to fall under a category where the consent needs to be granted within a 6-month period. There are about 1,600 medium-sized projects, on average, throughout New Zealand each year. We are saying that they should be consented within the 6-month process. We have seen projects of national significance done in a 9-month process, and now we are doing a 6-month consenting process here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAlso, we have got the section 32 amendments, where councils have to ensure that the economic consequences of any decision they make are fully examined and reported on. Of course, there are the amendments to do with trees as well, which members from the other side of the House have talked about ad infinitum, as if a tree is the most significant issue on New Zealanders\u2019 minds at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EParts 2 and 3 deal with the Auckland Unitary Plan. This legislation, as I commit to the House in the third reading, does again underpin National\u2019s environmental successes. We have got improved air quality. We have passed effective legislation in the exclusive economic zone, which the previous Government ignored, even though it was backed by the Greens. There was no legislation out in the exclusive economic zone. The Greens never thought of it. We put some legislation and regulation out in the exclusive economic zone and the Greens opposed it, saying it was not good enough\u2014it was not as good as the nil that they did. We passed legislation dealing with climate change, and we are seeing more renewable energy. I commend this legislation to the House. I thank the Hon Amy Adams for all the work she has done with her Cabinet colleagues and for her support. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u002255e2d05c2bf844d1ae548c99e02b0a5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255e2d05c2bf844d1ae548c99e02b0a5b\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to address the reforms of legislation arising from the Resource Management Reform Bill. The National Government would have us believe that the current Resource Management Act is the current blockage in the road to economic development and prosperity. The philistines over there on the Government benches would say that the Resource Management Act is a barrier. National says: \u201CTake out the teeth from the Resource Management Act and suddenly all will be transformed. Suddenly there will be economic growth with a surge. Suddenly there will be a new golden age in New Zealand. Suddenly there will be a dawning of a whole new economic growth because the Resource Management Act has been reformed.\u201D As the Tui billboards go: \u201CYeah, right.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe bonfire of the Resource Management Act regulations causes serious damage to our environment and massive unintended consequences. It will impose potential costs in the manner of the leaky homes fiasco, which the National Government brought about back in the 1990s. Yes, we did require some efficiency and streamlining processes to be brought about in the Resource Management Act, and everyone would agree that there were areas for fine-tuning. But it did not require complete gutting, as this National Government has moved to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis Government does not really want to solve problems. It wants to use problems to pursue its own ideological agenda. It now claims that changing the Resource Management Act is somehow about solving the problems of first-home buyers. What a massive leap of logic. How absurd that it has used the Resource Management Act and says that by gutting the Act, suddenly tens of thousands of new homes will be built, all as a result of taking away the rules around the Act. It is breathtaking. How a bonfire of the regulations is going to translate into more affordable houses is never explained. Only a National Government would have the gall, the temerity, and the sheer effrontery to pull this sort of stunt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENational has not adequately justified this legislation. It is in a world of assertion. It is all claim and spin with nothing to back it up. The facts are there before you in the regulatory impact statement\u20142 percent of resource consents were notified, and 98 percent of resource consents were not notified. Yet the Government would have New Zealanders believe that a large chunk of resource consents were having to be notified, when only 2 percent were. Of those 2 percent, only 1 percent ended up being appealed and going through to the Environment Court\u20141 percent. That is such a low percentage. It is hardly something that means that the country is being held to ransom, when such a low percentage is being appealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe have also heard that a large percentage was being processed on time. Only 5 percent of resource consents were not actually being processed on time. The vast bulk of those consents were actually being handled by council officers\u2014over 90 percent by council officers\u2014not by commissioners and not by elected representatives. They were being done through the council processes, and 95 percent were being processed on time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe did have the odd exception, and I will agree that there were some exceptions. It was mentioned by the Minister for the Environment that Pak \u2019N Save in Wairau Road was one example of the Resource Management Act being used to hold up a supermarket for 17 years. That is true. The two supermarket chains were using the Resource Management Act, vexatious litigation, and trade competition to hold each other out. Basically, it was a situation where for every month that one supermarket chain could hold the other supermarket chain off from building its supermarket, its other five supermarkets in the greater area of about a 7 or 8 kilometre radius were making significant revenues by stopping the competitor from being there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThere happened to be a certain mayor on the North Shore who became the mayor and said \u201CWe are going to stop this, and we are going to move on this very quickly.\u201D, and who knocked their heads together and also brought the staff together. Many of the council officers themselves had very fixed positions on this. It basically became a situation of the leadership moving in, talking to all the various parties, sorting it out, and bringing them together. Within 12 to 18 months it was done, and I cut the ribbon to open that supermarket within 2 years of that. So 17 years of grief was brought to a head within 18 months during my mayoralty, simply because we saw fit to use logic, the Resource Management Act was put aside, and we came to a common-sense position and got it sorted out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe have heard also that as a result of these Resource Management Act reforms there will be many other instances where things will be improved. But what we are seeing here are things such as the trees issue. Again, I can tell you from a North Shore perspective that it prided itself on having very, very good vegetation on the North Shore and a very, very good governance of our trees on the North Shore. The North Shore was seen as being the jewel in the crown of the Auckland area in terms of our tree coverage and our rules around trees and ensuring that the communities were brought into this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EDuring our Local Government and Environment Committee hearings we heard from many, many groups, a large percentage of which came from the North Shore, who talked about areas like Le Roys Bush in Northcote, the electorate of Jonathan Coleman. Jonathan Coleman will agree with this. There, under our former situation, we ensured that it was not just the bush in the public reserve but all adjoining properties around that in a global sense that were impacted. If somebody started cutting down all the trees bordering on to the public reserve, the public reserve amenity would be greatly reduced as a result. The community accepted that and they all agreed that if you buy a property bordering on to Le Roys Bush, you do not start chopping all the trees down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation, and as a result of this, what the council will have to do is go and Gazette every single property and ensure that every single property bordering Le Roys Bush\u2014and you are talking probably a couple of hundred\u2014will all have to be gazetted, in terms of bordering on to Le Roys Bush. They will all have to go through a process. It will all be council time. It will all be council staff time. It will be very, very time-consuming, and it will be costly. At the end of the day, this Government talks about reducing compliance costs, reducing costs to councils, and reducing costs to local authorities, but there is one example of one reserve on the North Shore of Auckland that will tie up a considerable amount of council staff time in simply gazetting all the properties that border on to Le Roys Bush to ensure that the properties adjoining there continue to be protected. Because what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225298a74cb4574a368718c61869e2cdc7\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Money well spent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d8482f993744ff68ba97eda53dc6c49\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we are seeing in Auckland, and the member for North Shore, Maggie Barry, might realise this, is unscrupulous developers moving in who have no affinity and no connection to the areas. They are a bit like the member for the North Shore, who moved to the North Shore just recently. They come into the areas, buy out properties, and chop down the trees. Somebody who has lived in a property for many years, who has been used to trees on their property or on the border of their property with the adjoining property, suddenly finds a bare, barren section next door. We are seeing it happening increasingly in the last 1 year to 2 years as a result of the National Government. It is a great shame that you will not see Auckland the same in 10 years\u2019 time as it is today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBy contrast, the city of Melbourne is actually increasing its tree coverage from something like 20 percent tree coverage\u2014they actually have a 10 to 15-year target\u2014to go up to something like 60 or 70 percent canopy coverage in the Melbourne area, because of the improvement to the environment and improvement to the climatic conditions as a result. So there in Melbourne they are trying to increase the coverage, but here this Government is impacting on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe Resource Management Act has been an Act that has been seen globally\u2014around the world\u2014by many, many other parliaments and many other countries as being a fine example of some of the best legislation in the world in the sense of environmental protection. This National Government is gutting the Resource Management Act. It is taking it down to the lowest possible level that it can get away with. It is doing this so it can help its friends, its mates, its developers\u2014the people with the money. This is another case of the National Government getting in behind the developers, the financiers, and all those with money to develop properties. They will have an easy road as a result of this. This legislation weakens the Resource Management Act, it weakens our democracy, it weakens our local government structure in New Zealand, and it weakens the protection of the environment. New Zealand First does not support this, and it thinks this is a very retrograde step in terms of the history of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022182da1dc3f8947188e380628e0c36e4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022182da1dc3f8947188e380628e0c36e4a\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to rise to speak in the third reading of this legislation arising from the Resource Management Reform Bill. I am a little dismayed, as always, at the contributions of some of the members across the House, who use inflammatory language such as \u201Cunscrupulous developers\u201D, \u201Crich developers\u201D, and \u201CNational\u2019s rich mates\u201D. I find that language a little bit offensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022601f41cf8df9413997ff1a55a3fed81a\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: A bit old-fashioned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223631c00e6bfe453f8dc2bcf0a16b5ba7\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: It is slightly old-fashioned, and it brings to mind a development just north of Christchurch. It is called Pegasus Town and it is a development just north of Christchurch. It is, in fact, yes, the project of a developer. I would argue not that that developer was unscrupulous or rich, but, in fact, I would argue exactly the opposite. But I would say that that developer is one of a group of companies that are providing housing for people in Christchurch after the earthquake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8089ec482eb40a3ba509a281b1417a8\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The Todd Corporation took over after he went bust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291541981bf28466a947add5ca5f457fe\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Please, over the other side of the House, tell me that that kind of development is bad for New Zealand. Please tell me that the Pegasus Town development, which has happened just north of Christchurch\u2014I do not know how many sections there are, and let us widen it out to some of the developments that are happening around Rolleston, all around Christchurch. These are the so-called rich, the so-called unscrupulous, mates of the National Party who are providing housing for people in Christchurch. So I ask those Christchurch-based MPs who are railing against this Resource Management Act reform to please tell me how that can be bad. These people are taking a punt, providing housing and providing sections and providing the infrastructure for people in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310a2886ebb54fe0897c2751317dc5bc\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, a punt in Christchurch\u2014building a house in Christchurch isn\u2019t taking a punt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4a75bdd262415b9cc9b7170ffde267\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: I see that the ex-member for Waimakariri, whose name escapes me at the moment, cannot accept the fact that here are some developers doing exactly what is needed in New Zealand\u2014that is, providing housing, providing sections, and providing homes for New Zealanders. So please stand up, I ask the ex-member for Waimakariri. Stand up and give me the rationale behind why that can be a bad thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe member for New Zealand First gave us a salutary story\u2014a very self-congratulatory story\u2014about how he managed to fix what was a 13-year impasse\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229956d21cce244ea7a97014ede24b3e7c\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: 17-year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229463200105814f43a86216749cb59438\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: It was a 17-year impasse between two supermarket chains. One was vexatiously preventing the development of the other. He managed to fix it within 18 months, and, in fact, he even cut the ribbon. What a guy\u201418 months. Well, I have got good news for that member from New Zealand First, the failed mayor from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022863172cc1a9a427d930e5f9fd65d874d\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: The clown of Campbells Bay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022554bb28947364d8995676b01652562f3\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you very much\u2014Campbells Bay. I have got good news for that ex-mayor and now New Zealand First list member. This legislation, which is shortly to become the law, and thank goodness for it, is going to cut that consenting time down to 6 months. So that member from Campbells Bay can rest assured. He can rest assured that although he might have toiled away under the previous regime of the Resource Management Act, under this legislation that consenting regime will be cut down to 6 months. So let us hear that member, or somebody else from his party, get up on their feet and say \u201CThat\u2019s a good job, Hon Amy Adams. Actually, you\u2019ve done a good job with the Resource Management Act.\u201D, because that is what I believe. Far from the fantasy that is expounded throughout this House that developers are rich and unscrupulous\u2014and I wrote down other notes that I will not bother this House with\u2014this kind of legislation is about getting good decision-making. It is not about affecting the nature of the decision; it is about coming to a good decision in a timely, cost-effective manner. Why? Because we can build houses, and because we can build supermarkets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI just want to finish my contribution on the other old saw\u2014the old 20th century saw\u2014that the National Party does not care about the environment. I will not go through the environmental gains that this Government has put into effect\u2014oh, more money has been spent on water rehabilitation in the 5 years that we have been the Government than under any other previous Government. I just want to pick out a couple of small examples about how the environment does benefit from development, and they are the \u014Cpuha dam in South Canterbury and the Waiareka Stream in North Otago. Both of those water catchments have been affected by irrigation development, and guess what? Both have benefited in terms of water quality. This is good legislation. This is a good Government. Amy Adams is a very good Minister for the Environment. I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00226ee0abe9009b4c34a2c146c0a2d97079\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ee0abe9009b4c34a2c146c0a2d97079\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call on this third reading of the legislation arising from the Resource Management Reform Bill. Jacqui Dean, the member who just sat down, has argued that for the sake of economic growth the destruction of the environment is justified. She claimed that there have been houses built and said that for the sake of creating jobs it is OK to put our environment at risk. Yet there is a shortage of houses throughout New Zealand and there are now 153,000 people still unemployed, all under this Government\u2019s watch, so I am not sure whether that member understands what this legislation puts at risk\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f6b26a9eea49c9ab915af45a1ea736\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Patronising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7102845e9f34248902f345c2dbe8537\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, it is not patronising, Miss Collins. That is the claim made by that particular member, and I am saying that she is wrong. She is totally wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Maryan Street has said, the changes in this legislation, and past and planned legislative changes by this Government, are part of a package by this Government that does four things, in my view: it puts at risk New Zealand\u2019s environment, it destroys the ability of local communities to participate in local democracy, it undermines local government\u2019s ability to function properly and to deliver for its constituents, and it undermines the fact that local government has a critical role to play in local development. It is the Government\u2019s argument that we should be destroying local government and removing local democracy, all for the sake of economic growth. Let us ask it for the proof. Let us ask it for the proof. It has had 5 years in Government, and all we get for the rest of New Zealand is 153,000 unemployed people, low-income people, and people who do not have a house to get into, and it is becoming harder and harder to get into a home. That is the legacy of this particular Government, and if it goes ahead with these changes now and with further changes, it will continue to undermine the ability of New Zealanders and ratepayers to participate in local decision-making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI say that that has not gone unnoticed by local government. That has not gone unnoticed by councillors and mayors throughout this country. They would have noted\u2014or maybe not, because most local government people sat through the local government conference recently and did not say a word, but they were murmuring behind when the Prime Minister spoke and they were grumbling behind when the Minister of Local Government spoke, because they have had enough of this. They have had enough of the bullying tactics of this Government. They have had enough of the local government Ministers from this Government going about, prancing along, and telling local people that they know best and they know better and therefore they can go ahead. It is just unbelievable that this Government believes that it is doing something good for New Zealand. By the time those members leave office, they will have left this country in a mess. Shame on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u00228c7b0a75337143a89daa655cc49e84b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c7b0a75337143a89daa655cc49e84b5\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E It is quite difficult to keep awake, actually, after a tedious dissertation like that one. That member Su\u2019a William Sio has not\u2014not to my knowledge, anyway\u2014sat in on any of these reforms. He has not actually sat in on any of the submissions and seems to have a particularly poor grasp of the legislation, which is, let me say out loud, just in case you would benefit from this at the last moment, the Resource Management Act reform legislation in its third reading. When we talk about the track record of Governments, let us look a little bit at what Labour contributed to the Government, propped up by its pals the Greens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8253825d5374fdea3615ad0136e1375\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to speak about the bill. You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4ea60d793c451ca0a10b724c9d1b6c\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: This is in those long, dark years\u2014the 9 years in the wilderness. There is a chihuahua yapping somewhere in the Chamber, Mr Assistant Speaker. Is that allowable? Anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E In the exclusive economic zone legislation, which is a piece of legislation that we passed late last year, it was very important that that very important piece of water be protected. Under 9 years of Labour and the Greens, what happened? There were 46 mining consents in our precious oceans. Those parties did nothing to protect them. There was not a single regulation and there was not a single protection put down. That is bad enough. That is appalling\u201446 consents granted. They made it worse, though. They compounded the problem, because they then stood against what we put through. They voted against the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Bill. So not only did they not protect it when they were in a position to but also they stood against the actual protections that this Government put in place. I am very proud of what we did there. It was important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EA lot of stuff and nonsense and mythology has been spun by those on the opposite benches about the Resource Management Act. It is a fabulous piece of legislation, according to \u201CPlanet Labour\u201D\u201422 years old, nothing wrong with it. That is not actually what Sir Geoffrey Palmer said a few weeks ago. He actually agrees with a lot of the things and a lot of the reforms that our Minister for the Environment, Amy Adams, has put through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed12063d24a4ddb89ae3091925c7d9d\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd31dbc4ea314afea4989f8d69f584f8\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: It would pay to pay attention to this, particularly that member who guffaws up the back, ruddy faced and paying little attention. When we looked at the 234 submissions on the Resource Management Act and listened to 147 of them in Wellington and Auckland, a lot became clear. For example, Statistics New Zealand\u2019s Business Operations Survey maintained that the Act was expensive, that it was time-consuming, and that it was having a significantly bad effect on business performance. The business survey cited the Act specifically, saying that it had led to an uncertainty that in the past 2 years had led to the cancellation of projects potentially worth more than $800 million. The uncertainty had led to the cancellation of about two-thirds of those projects. Another 430 businesses cancelled projects, each worth more than $100,000. Again, they blamed the Act\u2019s processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ESo \u201Clies, damned lies, and statistics\u201D were quoted by the member with her head down over there, Maryan Street, a little bit earlier in the evening. She very selectively looked at the statistics. She did not consider the lost opportunities and the people who were defeated by the Act. Some businesses\u2014can you believe it; it almost does beggar belief\u2014have spent up to 25 percent, a quarter, of their total expenditure, just on applying for resource consents. The lost opportunity costs of the Act are truly appalling. To dispel some of that nonsense and mythology that we have been hearing, I say that more than half of the resource consent applications are cancelled in the pre-application stage due to uncertainty and time delays. These are the sorts of problems that we were being confronted with as a nation, so we addressed them. We looked at them and we did something about them. Perhaps the most damning thing of all is that only 3 percent of the businesses surveyed said that the current Act enhanced their businesses. The others pointed to it as a roadblock and a problem that caused delays. That is something that needs to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EIn 2007 there was an example that estimated that for a $10 million project, the cost of the delay per day was $2,200, which, if you extrapolate that over 3 months\u2014I know you are not too crash hot at the maths over there, but bear with me\u2014means an additional $140,000. If that delay extended out into 9 months, which is about the average time of delays around consents, those costs blew out to nearly $600,000. So who is the winner there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThere is not time to go into the issue of the Environment Court. People say it has been diminished; it continues to have a very important role in interpreting and applying policy and safeguarding the rigour of planning and consenting processes and the quality of incomes. What it does not need to do is determine values or policy, which is the role of communities and their elected representatives\u2014namely, the council and the Government. I commend these bills to the House wholeheartedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002262155f7bcf55499685741473c3e30c55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262155f7bcf55499685741473c3e30c55\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the next call is a split call. The Hon Ruth Dyson, 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa4522ad37ff45e99f83de40bdbdf26f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa4522ad37ff45e99f83de40bdbdf26f\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E That is correct. It is very hard, after you hear that member, Maggie Barry, to think why on earth she would be so poorly liked not only within her own caucus but within her own party and in her own electorate. Let me give myself a minute to figure out why that might be. It does not take long. I love watching the faces of her colleagues as she makes a contribution to the House. They all start wincing and whingeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to speak to the third reading of the Resource Management Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill to make sure that it is on the record that not only I personally but also the Labour Party opposes this legislation. My colleague the Hon Maryan Street quite correctly pointed out that these bills are not one-off amendments to do anything that the members opposite purport them to do, but, actually, they are part of a series of measures to undermine the principles of the Resource Management Act. The reason that the Resource Management Act was developed over both National and Labour Governments was actually to move from a centralised planning perspective to an effects-based piece of legislation. Around the world, that process is envied. It has done New Zealand very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI also want to put on record that this process is not perfect and that where councils are underperforming, they should be called to account and given proper support to improve their processes. This should not be about delaying; this should be about have a regime that looks at the effects of a proposal and ensures that the founding principle of that consideration is the protection of the environment. It should have at its heart consideration of the rights of our citizens to have a say in what is happening in their communities, their cities, and their regions, and, indeed, in our country. So ensuring that we have environmental protection and the voice of our community is critical to the success of this process. This legislation weakens both of those provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMy colleague Su\u2019a William Sio also mentioned two other important provisions. They are to support, rather than tie up, local authorities, and give them the respect and the recognition that they deserve to get on and do their mandated work as efficiently as possible. This legislation pushes aside our democratically elected councillors\u2019 rights to carry out those functions. It is just another reduction in our respect for local authorities. It also fails to recognise, and, in fact, works in the opposite direction of, central government recognising the role in local development of a local authority. So there is no logical rationale to these pieces of legislation. They are some of the more ideological pieces of legislation that we have seen in this House for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EA strong advocate for the environment and, indeed, often a strong advocate for the National Party, Guy Salmon, said on national television that this process of reforming the Resource Management Act was the first time we had had a Minister for the Environment in New Zealand, since the very first Minister for the Environment, who moved away from protecting the standards for the environment, and reduced protection and standards for the environment. I do not think that Guy Salmon will be promoting, let alone voting for, National next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThis is a sad time for this House. This is legislation that is not supported in the way that it should be and in the way that the Resource Management Act was originally developed for, across both National and Labour\u2014it was before other parties were in Parliament. I regret that it looks like it will be progressed through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u00222a83fa8dad8442f5845b08126c48d6b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a83fa8dad8442f5845b08126c48d6b3\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. The Greens will be opposing this legislation arising from the Resource Management Reform Bill. It is ironic that it is seeing its passage through the House at this time. It is ironic because it may have escaped the notice of some members\u2019 attention, but we are in the throes of local government elections at the moment. Up in Auckland they will be electing councillors, local board members, and a mayor\u2014probably the mayor whom the National Government does not want, again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWhy should we bother? Why should we bother with local government elections when we have got bills like these coming through the House and legislation like this? Why bother with the democratic rights of people to be involved in developments in their areas and their neighbourhoods? Why should we bother? Why bother when we have got a Government that will determine the make-up of the hearings panel that will hear the Auckland Unitary Plan? Why should we bother with local government at all? Why should we bother when the hearings panel can, if it likes, make recommendations around the Auckland Unitary Plan\u2014the one plan for Auckland\u2014that are completely outside the scope of what the submissions have been? Why should we bother with local government? Why should we bother when it is not being listened to by this Government and when we have a Government that actually insists that we do not include our communities in shaping the future of our cities? The example here is Auckland again, where the Auckland Spatial Plan, the 30-year plan, which communities across the city worked on, is not given the same legal weight, or any legal weight. It will simply be given a bit of regard when it comes to the unitary plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWe have real concerns that this legislation undermines local participation, not just in these examples that I have just specified but also when it comes to the referral of medium-sized applications straight to the Environment Court. We note that in the legislation there is no clear definition of what a medium-sized development is, and there is no real definition of what the threshold is that has to be maintained before it gets fast tracked to the Environment Court. But we note that when that happens, communities are locked out of the process. We have already heard from other speakers about how the Resource Management Act is currently working, in terms of consents. We have heard about the numbers that are notified, and there are very few. We have also heard about the numbers that are actually granted, which are more than 90 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThis legislation is a solution looking for a problem, in most cases. I agree with some of the former speakers that this is about ideology. It is already possible under the current law, under the current Resource Management Act, to go directly to the Environment Court without a council hearing the submitters or hearing from the local community. We see this time and time again. In my local community, we have currently had our Auckland Council refer a consent for a marina right through to the Environment Court, without it being heard in the local area, despite the fact that it was originally notified, despite the fact that there were over 500 submissions, and despite the fact that it goes against all sorts of democracy to send it straight to the Environment Court when our local people want to have a say. The Resource Management Act is already working in favour of developers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWhat about M\u0101ori in all this? Where do M\u0101ori sit when there is a direct referral? We know that under the existing Act M\u0101ori are entitled to be consulted on any type of consent that comes through. What we do not know with this legislation, because it is silent, is what happens to iwi in that consultation. What happens when a consent is fast tracked when the time has been restricted? We already know that some iwi frequently lack capacity to participate fully, and that the time constraints that are already placed on them by councils can be debilitating. This Government clearly does not care about that. I do note that it is consulting further on freshwater management with iwi, and that is the next round of legislation that will be coming through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWe will be opposing this legislation. We see that it does more harm than good. It does nothing to assist our damaged reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00228e5208db7a19442c8d452f4438cb0af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e5208db7a19442c8d452f4438cb0af4\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It does grieve me to hear that the Greens are not supporting the legislation arising from the Resource Management Reform Bill. We have heard a lot of overblown rhetoric in this debate that this legislation is anti-regulations and anti-environment. This is a Government that has done plenty for the environment over the last 4 or 5 years\u2014more than has been done in a very long time. We passed the exclusive economic zone bill. We have actually done something about that area, which is so important to the country. We are working hard on the Land and Water Forum, and we have much to be proud of. I do not have any time for Opposition members who represent very small parties and have contributed not much to this country over the last 15 years saying that this Government is not one that cares about the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe Resource Management Act is not just about the environment; it is also a critical piece of planning legislation. It is important and it has a huge influence on the development and growth of the economy. Is it not obvious to the people on the other side of the House that countries with the best environment tend to be the wealthiest countries in the world? The best way to look after the environment is to do well as a country, and that is why it is so important that we get this Resource Management Act working well and effectively for businesses in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESection 32 of the Act is about proper analysis of costs and benefits. Why on earth would we not want to do that? Why on earth would we not want to make sure, before we pass regulations, that they are going to be effective and cost-effective? We also talk about trees in this legislation. Let the sunshine in. We cannot have people living without ever seeing the sunlight in their houses every day. This piece of legislation is practical, sensible, and it strikes a decent balance. The people of Christchurch have not had blanketing legislation, and, as far as I am aware, that is quite a pretty city. There is no reason why we need to be living in the shade, and people should be able to make their own decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFinally, this bill brings in a sensible way forward for the Auckland Unitary Plan. I do hope the Auckland Council comes up with a good unitary plan, but it is important that we have independent hearing commissioners, and this legislation ensures that that happens. On that basis, I commend it to the House. I am sure it will make a great difference to this country, building a brighter future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223d743dcb190f45f0b8b2d3462de562d7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209ada088244f4cf098104d52bc57ac32\u0022\u003EBail Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002219d20235556247cfb6c04df98f1c33cb\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3254902ed6e4853a80b87cecd531183\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3254902ed6e4853a80b87cecd531183\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek leave for all stages of the Bail Amendment Bill to be debated as one question, with all questions to be put to the vote at the end of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f58c0a9eb74be7881f5d5facfd09d0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Separately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c777737205054f3690fe955161b1c757\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f0619d3700d41a3a14c4e3a45fdbf19\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course? There is none. Leave is agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220547429838f4401a7ed8c95d94f9fed\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0d839b8c9c0492f8054f29672e83596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0d839b8c9c0492f8054f29672e83596\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak at this very important phase of the passage of the Bail Amendment Bill. As will be apparent from the earlier stages of the bill, Labour supports this bill, but with considerable concern and reservations about some aspects of it. We understand, of course, the growing community concern about the number of offenders who, having been granted bail, continue to commit offences while on bail, and, in particular, those offenders who have previous convictions for serious offences who find themselves offending again and facing a bail application. So the legislation, in response to community concerns, now reverses the onus for an applicant for bail, and requires in some circumstances the applicant for bail to establish that they should be granted bail or that they are not a risk should bail be granted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are important principles that need to be balanced, the least of which is the fundamental principle in criminal justice, which is that a person charged with an offence is considered innocent until proven guilty. Next is the principle that the courts have responsibility in managing offenders, both pre-conviction and post-conviction, to protect public safety. One of the balancing factors that combines or draws those two together is that the minimum restraint necessary that is consistent with those two principles should be applied to a person, so that a person who is charged with an offence yet to be established but who poses a risk to public safety should face the minimum restraint necessary to ensure public safety. Another very important principle, in my view, is that judges, with the best information available to them, must be regarded as being in the best position to judge the appropriate course of action. It has become increasingly common and popular for there to be widespread commentary on the decisions that judges take, but the reality is we seldom see in the public arena all of the information that a judge has before himself or herself in making that decision. All those factors need to be balanced to determine what is an appropriate course of action to take in the contemporary or latter-day circumstances of the administration of criminal justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn those grounds and on that basis we accept that there are grounds for reversing the burden of proof in an application for bail in some cases. One clause in this legislation refers specifically to the onus of proof being reversed in relation to charges of murder. The starting point is that bail will not be granted but that a judge may grant bail. Then there is the clause that deals with a range of very serious offences. There is a heightened burden for those offences as well. It needs to be made clear, we accept, that this bill, should it be passed, does not deny bail\u2014it certainly does not deny bail automatically\u2014to any offender, but it does increase the threshold that has to be met by an offender before bail is granted where there is an obvious risk. That risk is usually established by looking at their past track record, and reoffending while on bail certainly increases the risk, which a judge is entitled to take into account. So we understand that, and we accept that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe understand also that the bill ensures that police bail is now to be managed and treated in largely the same way as court-managed bail. So we accept those provisions. They strike a good balance of the principles that I set out earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are three particular areas where we are concerned. They are the Supplementary Order Papers\u2014one from the Minister of Justice and two from the member Richard Prosser. There are many technical changes in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 339. There is one that causes me particular concern, and that is the proposed new section 30E in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. Whereas at the moment the police are responsible for monitoring those who are given electronic bail while on remand, this Supplementary Order Paper says that the Minister of Justice can give the authority to manage electronic bail to either the Commissioner of Police or the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections. It is not clear why both should be given this responsibility. But even if we were convinced that it was a good idea that it should be shared between those two departments who lie at the heart of our criminal justice system, the next question is on what basis that discretion to grant authority for monitoring electronic bail should be given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is no signal given in the legislation as to how the Minister would exercise that discretion. Is the discretion going to be exercised in relation to different regions of New Zealand? Is it simply going to be that the police can monitor electronic bail and the Department of Corrections can as well, and they just sort it out amongst themselves? Is there going to be a memorandum of understanding between the two departments? What is the story going to be? What is the basis on which the Minister will exercise the discretion to give the authority for monitoring electronic bail to either department or both? I think it is fair that we hear what those grounds might be and what the distinction might be between the two departments. We might hear from the Minister what she considers would be the most effective arrangement and get a clear steer on how that discretion might be exercised. Is it going to be the police for some situations and the Department of Corrections for others, and, if so, what? That signal is often given in the primary legislation, and, in fact, it should be there in the primary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to Supplementary Order Papers 334 and 335, I simply want to record that we are opposed to those Supplementary Order Papers. They are Draconian. They do not achieve any sort of balance in the administration of justice when it comes to bail applications. They reduce the threshold against which bail might be granted. Supplementary Order Paper 334 deals specifically with the situation where somebody is charged with an offence but not yet convicted. The bill, as it is at the moment, says that if an offender has a conviction for the particular offence for which they are now facing another charge and are seeking bail, then it is a relevant factor for the judge to say the onus starts with them and the starting point is that they do not get bail. Mr Prosser\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 334, however, would say it does not matter whether or not the offender has a conviction; simply being charged is enough. That is so far contrary to the principle of innocent before proven guilty that in our view we simply cannot abide by that Supplementary Order Paper and we will not be supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe second Supplementary Order Paper in Mr Prosser\u2019s name, Supplementary Order Paper 335, deals with younger offenders and the situation in which, in terms of assessment of being a risk, an offender has not been imprisoned for an offence but has a conviction for an offence for which imprisonment is a possible sentence. So they may not have been in prison at all, which suggests that their offending would be at the lower end of the offending, and does not suggest a greater risk if that offender is facing a subsequent bail application for a similar offence. We say that that simply draws the bow way too long and gets the balance way out of kilter, so we will not be supporting those Supplementary Order Papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn the whole, bearing in mind the principles that we have articulated, we support this bill but do simply remind the Committee that when it comes to criminal justice, our job is to make sure that the law ensures not only that the guilty are convicted and are dealt with but that the innocent are treated properly and appropriately and their rights are properly protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u002258734f4f1e054be0848076bfd2859136\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258734f4f1e054be0848076bfd2859136\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to take a short call in this, the first part of the Committee of the whole House, as we give consideration to the Bail Amendment Bill. New Zealand First supports this bill. We support the broad aims of the bill and we welcome its passage through the House and into law. As I have alluded to in the earlier debates on this bill, if New Zealand First has any reservations, they would be to say only that in some certain key areas we do not believe that it goes far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EWe accept that there were and are some misconceptions surrounding the bill in the eyes of the public, and that some of this may have come about because of a gap in understanding between what the public might rightly expect from such a bill as this and what this bill is able to actually deliver. Some of that gap may have come about because of publicity surrounding the tragic events of the Christie Marceau case. As we know, there are elements of the Christie\u2019s Law petition that the select committee on which I sit, the Law and Order Committee, was not able to consider because the appeal in the case was still before the courts. Because of that, and for other reasons, it remains our hope that the Government will see a need to revisit the matter of court bail again as soon as is possible, in order to address these concerns and others that have been raised during the submissions process. We would look forward to working with the Government again on any such revisited bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, however, I have introduced two Supplementary Order Papers to the bill, and I want to take a few minutes to speak about these. The first is Supplementary Order Paper 334, which seeks to amend clause 8. I quote from the explanatory note: \u201CThis Supplementary Order Paper amends the Bail Amendment Bill. The Bill added 6 more offences, including kidnapping and aggravated burglary, to the list of now 18 offences that are subject to a reverse onus of proof (all strike offences). But the threshold for that is still too high, as it requires the accused to have been previously convicted of one of those specified offences. This Supplementary Order Paper proposes the bail application should not require a previous conviction. The reverse onus of proof should apply upon being charged with one of the 18 specified offences.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThis Supplementary Order Paper also dovetails with my second Supplementary Order Paper, Supplementary Order Paper 335, in that it specifies an applicability to persons aged 17 years and over. Supplementary Order Paper 335 seeks to amend clause 9 by replacing in clause 9(1) the words \u201Csentenced to imprisonment.\u201D with \u201Cconvicted of an offence punishable by 3 years imprisonment or more.\u201D It states: \u201CThe Bill proposes that the strong presumption in favour of bail remains in place for 17 year olds unless they have previously been imprisoned. 18 and 19 year olds will now be subject to the standard adult tests \u2026 This Supplementary Order Paper proposes the threshold should be lowered and based on the seriousness of the offence of the conviction \u2026\u201D\u2014rather than being based on the imposition of a sentence of imprisonment for that conviction, which may not necessarily always have been the case\u2014\u201CA 17 year old\u2019s application for bail should stand or fall on its merits, rather than being strongly presumed.\u201D It is our contention that a 17-year-old having been convicted of such serious offences would indicate that that person was no stranger to the court system, and the imposition of a sentence of imprisonment is too high a bar in terms of their assessment for bail, given that a conviction has already, in fact, been entered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First hopes that all members, particularly those from the Government side, will give consideration to supporting these two Supplementary Order Papers in my name, as we believe that they will strengthen and improve the bill. New Zealand First supports this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002298e31a2eb2b6473d9891d28140a77e67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298e31a2eb2b6473d9891d28140a77e67\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party supports the Bail Amendment Bill. It supports it because the net effect of the bill is really to toughen the provisions for giving bail on the margins where people have the greatest likelihood of reoffending while on bail. This bill does not make a huge difference, to be absolutely frank about it. What we found in the Law and Order Committee, particularly with the reverse burden of proof being placed on the defendant, was that this bill might result in another 50 prison beds being required. Something like 350 people a year, I think, might be affected by this. If you take that 350 people in the context of how many people are granted bail, it is in excess of 91,000 people getting bail a year, based on the 2009 figures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo we have a bill here that will make it more likely for a relatively small number of people not to be granted bail when they are accused of a serious offence. I guess we should acknowledge that the Minister of Justice\u2019s bill makes some difference, as against that of her predecessor, Simon Power, who in the last Parliament brought in a bill that had the net effect of influencing the imprisonment of 10 people a year. That bill was, as a well-known professor of criminal law said, simply window dressing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut I want to say to the Minister that it is a fairly soft measure. If you compare this with the legislation that came in in 2000, which I as the then Minister of Justice was responsible for, you will see that that saw a 200 percent increase in the number of people who were remanded in custody rather than being granted bail. So that Bail Act 2000 made a huge difference. Before that, the level of offending on bail was pretty rampant. There needed to be a toughening-up, and that toughening-up occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut I want to say I am not being particularly critical of the Minister, because if you look at the figures for the number of people who have been charged with an offence whom we remand in custody, you will see that in New Zealand it is 43 per 100,000. That compares with Australia where it is only 30 per 100,000, the United Kingdom where it is 25, and Finland where it is 10. So in relative terms our bail laws are reasonably tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EHaving said that, why would Parliament want to support a further toughening at the margins? Well, the reason why we support a toughening at the margins is that there is still too much offending by people who are out on bail. Judged over the period of time from 2006 to 2010, the number of those who offended again while on bail added up to about 17 percent. That is nearly one in five. A lot of those offences were relatively minor offences, but some were not. For example, if I look at the figures during that 5-year period, I see that 23 people committed murder while they were on bail and were subsequently convicted of murder, 21 committed homicide, 763 were found guilty of sexual offending at the time they were on bail, and quite a large number, 7,140, were convicted of acts that were intended to cause injury. If you take those figures as a proportion of the 450,000 people who were bailed over that 5-year period, they do not seem to be a lot. But if you are the victim of that offending, or a member of the family of the victim, then that is very serious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe heard cases before the select committee where families came along to the committee absolutely aggrieved, and understandably so, that somebody who was out on bail for allegedly committing a relatively serious crime again offended in a serious way while they were out on bail. When you look at those figures you see that New Zealand still has to do better. Seventeen percent of those who are out on bail still committing offences is a figure that is too high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo this bill works on a number of different areas. The first point that I want to make is an important point, and that is that there is nothing in this bill at all that removes the discretion of a judge to grant bail. That is important because every case is different, and there has to be flexibility for the judge to look at all aspects of the case to make a decision, rather than the law being too prescriptive. So there is nothing in this bill that takes away the discretion of the judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut what the bill does do is reverse the onus of proof. Normally there is a presumption of bail, and that is important. For centuries our British system of justice has said you are innocent until proven guilty, and if you are innocent until proven guilty, then there has to be a presumption of bail. But, of course, nobody in this House, and certainly nobody on the bench, is naive about that. If a person has allegedly committed an offence and, one, they might present a serious risk of reoffending, or, two, there is a serious risk that they may abscond, or, three, there is a serious risk they might interfere with witnesses, then judges use their discretion to say that that person will be remanded in custody and they will not be released on bail. So that does not change. That is the main reason why judges, under the existing law and under the future law, will make a decision either to grant bail or to remand in custody, or rule that the defendant spend some time on bail and maybe some time in custody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut there are six areas where changes are made. Firstly, if you are alleged to have committed murder, the most serious offence you can commit, there will be a reversal of the burden of proof. That will not actually change things a lot on the ground. If you look at the statistics for those who are alleged to have committed murder, two-thirds of them are remanded in custody anyway. But what this bill requires is that the judges look a little bit more carefully at those who they might release on bail, albeit charged with the serious offence of murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe second thing the bill does is build on the list of repeat violent and sexual offences that I put in the legislation in 2000, where there will be a reverse burden of proof\u2014a burden on the defendant to prove that he or she is not likely to offend, rather than the burden being on the police to persuade the court that he or she is likely to offend. Previously, for murder, attempted murder, manslaughter, sexual violation, wounding with intent, aggravated wounding, or use of a firearm in a crime, then you had the reverse burden of proof. This list is added to by including other serious offences: sexual conduct with a child, kidnapping or abduction, aggravated burglary, and assault with the intent to rob. If you have been previously convicted of those offences and you are charged again with a similar serious offence, the reverse burden of proof makes sense. I have no objection to that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E The second key area that it changes is in regard to serious drug charges. We are talking here about class A drugs. The alarming thing about the statistics here is that of those charged with committing a class A drug offence, 34 percent of them are subsequently convicted of another serious drug offence while on bail, and that is simply too high. More than one-third are convicted of a further drug offence, and that is another reason why in this area the reverse burden of proof can be justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe third area relates to young defendants. There has been a strong presumption in the past of bail for those who are 17, 18, and 19. When we considered the 18 and 19-year-olds, we considered that since they were adults in every other facet of the law, there was not a strong case for treating 18 and 19-year-olds differently from any other age group. In fact, the offending by 18 and 19-year-olds tended to be higher than in other age categories. So that strong presumption in favour of bail is removed in that area, and likewise for 17-year-olds who have been previously imprisoned. Just to finish off, I say that I would not want to see 17-year-olds normally placed in jail if there is any alternative, because they are young and impressionable. But the statistics also say that if they are 17 and they have previously been imprisoned, then there is a very, very high chance that they will reoffend, and therefore that presumption of automatic granting of bail should be removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other things are relatively minor. There are changes in terms of police bail, to bring it in line with court bail. That is supported by us. The bill gives a statutory basis to electronically monitored bail. Electronic monitoring has proven very effective in reducing offending by people while on bail. This gives a statutory basis to it. There is no problem with that. And there are some relatively small amendments made in relation to bailable offences that are bailable as of right, removing from that category offences for a false declaration and providing the necessaries of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe thing I want to finish on is to say that this is a piece of legislation that is not radical. It has a relatively minor effect. I think it will be helpful. But if we really want to deal with the much wider problem of offending on bail, then we need to look at the delay in people actually having their cases heard in court, because if you are on bail for a longer period of time, obviously the offending on bail will go up. That absolutely has to be looked at. I think you, Mr Chair, and I both sat in at the District Court in Auckland and watched the production-line nature of bail applications being heard. Any assistance we can give to judges in terms of risk assessment tools will be important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I think is particularly important is that where decisions to grant bail are, in hindsight, wrongly made, we need to have a better system of reviewing those decisions that the judges have got wrong. I am not proposing here an interference in judicial independence. I am saying that the head of bench should probably have a better way of reviewing cases where wrongful decisions are made to see what we can learn from those decisions to stop mistakes happening again. With those comments, I say that we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb8aaa81e648463c9d4dcf5015ec457e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb8aaa81e648463c9d4dcf5015ec457e\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As we go through what I suspect will be quite a brief Committee stage of this Bail Amendment Bill, it is worth just reflecting on the progress of the bill overall through the House, which has been rather a stop-start, hurry up and wait affair. It was introduced in May last year, and 3 days later we found ourselves in the midst of the first reading, having had very little time to look at a bill that does affect quite a range of primary legislation. Some quite elaborate and some quite important changes are being proposed here, and we had 3 days before the first reading. It then went off to the Law and Order Committee, of course, and that was a 6-month process, which is as it should be. I will make some more comments about that process later. Then we sat on it for some 8 months. Nothing happened. And now here we are entering urgency\u2014this bill is named in the urgency motion\u2014and we will be doing the third reading tomorrow, I suspect, in urgency. So I just reflect on the fact that it has been a very strange process of getting this bill through the House, and one does wonder why it has been such a disjointed affair. As I say, it was a great rush to start, then a considerable period of nothing going on, and now here we are entering urgency to get through the remaining stages of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOur major objection to this bill is, as Mr Goff has just said, that it will not actually do a great deal. It will have some effect around the margin, but it will not make any substantive or substantial change to the outcomes of bail hearings, although there will be one or two decisions that may be swayed by it. That, in a sense, is unfortunate because we probably do need to have a hard look at some of the admitted shortcomings of some bail decisions\u2014a very, very small number, it must be said, in the context of some tens of thousands of decisions that are made each year by our judiciary. But, nevertheless, some of the consequences have been severe and tragic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis bill is a meddling bill. It is a fiddling around the edges sort of an approach, and one has to look only at the way in which it has laid out the provisions of the bill. They are very bitsy\u2014a tweak here, a shift here\u2014none of them actually contributing much to the stated aims of the bill, the stated objectives of the bill. But, nevertheless, there we are, and that is what we are confronted with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe had a large number of submissions on this bill\u2014something in excess of 280, and a large number of oral submissions on the bill. I have to say that sitting on that select committee we heard some very painful stories, some genuinely tragic stories, of people who had lost loved ones. But it has to be said that in amongst the very real hurt and the very real sadness of some of those contributions, we also saw a great deal of political theatre carried out, with submitters basically being shepherded through, handed their script, and sent on their way at the completion. It was not a happy way to see a select committee being treated, in fact. As I say, the political theatre that surrounded some of the processes, particularly the submission process, around this bill almost belittled the very genuine hurt and the tragedy of those people who were genuinely and directly affected by some of the bail decisions that had very bad consequences in the long run. I think it has to be acknowledged that a lot of those people who did make submissions in a genuine way will actually be disappointed when in a year or two they see that this bill will not actually make a great deal of difference. I will say more about some of the alternative approaches we might take in a later reading, which, of course, will be tomorrow morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIn terms of some of the specifics of the bill, our primary objection to it is that it extends the reverse onus of proof. No longer will people necessarily be deemed innocent until proven guilty. It expands and extends the situations where the so-called reverse onus of proof can be used, where effectively people are obliged to prove that they will not reoffend if they are allowed bail. That is quite a peculiar notion when you think it through. How does one prove what one will or will not do in the future? I disagree with some of the Labour spokespeople. I think this does reduce judicial discretion. Not only will the pressure be on the judges to think long and hard, because I am sure they do that anyway, but I think it does reduce the range of options available to them in a number of ways. I think that is unfortunate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think there were some improvements made in the select committee, and I compliment the select committee, which actually worked very hard on this bill\u2014I know that. There were some useful changes made, such as the business about youth and the removal of the class B provisions. It is a better bill, but the bill is not yet at a place where we could even contemplate supporting it, because, as I said, the reverse burden of proof is a significant shift. It contravenes our own New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, section 24(b), from memory. It puts us in a very tenuous position in relation to our having signed a number of international agreements and conventions, and in return for very little positive result. We cannot expect much at all of this bill in terms of eliminating or even reducing some of the real tragedies that can occur if the outcomes of a bail decision go horribly wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI will comment briefly on a couple of the proposed Supplementary Order Papers, the amendments. Regrettably for Mr Prosser, we certainly will not be supporting either of his amendments, which we think look at a bad bill and proceed to make it worse, or endeavour to make it worse. We see no benefit in those, no value in them\u2014quite the contrary; we think that they are very regressive and that they actually add nothing to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe see value in common sense, in fact, in some of the changes around electronic monitoring for bail. Clearly, that is a technology whose time has come. We see it as a means where bail actually can be, in a sense, less restrictive, enabling people a degree of freedom of movement. No doubt those technology changes over time will allow us to take a somewhat different approach and expand the range of options, I guess, available to us to ensure that people\u2019s movements are constrained, but also to allow perhaps a greater level of freedom. It is no small matter to be holding people on bail for longer. That is one of the key issues that this bill fails to address, that, in part, our objection to toughening the bail law is recognising that court processes are now so slow that very often it is not uncommon for people to be sitting in custody for 18 months at a time. Twelve to 18 months is by no means unusual for a drug case. We have to remember that a large number of those people actually are then found not guilty. They are not convicted, and yet they have spent a year or more in custody. They have probably lost their employment, they have probably lost their place in society, and there have been all sorts of negative effects on their families and on their friends, with significant social, personal, and, indeed, financial effects, to no good end. We think that is really not a particularly helpful or a positive way to go. It is clear that the provisions of this bill are almost, in a sense, wanting to treat bail as part of the punishment, using bail as a punitive mechanism. Bail should never be that. Bail should be allowed unless there are compelling reasons not to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis bill tightens the bail provisions but not in a helpful way, not in a strategic way. It is a very piecemeal approach. It is a very reactive approach, and one that we think will not actually make significant difference, will not dramatically affect outcomes, and will not achieve the stated goals of making society safer. It will not serve the integrity of the judicial system or the bail system, because you cannot improve the integrity of anything by taking this piecemeal, incremental approach that really is reactive. We do not believe that it will do any good. It does do some harm. For those reasons, we will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u00229099eaa1ecba44b0bd96f1523f37f133\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229099eaa1ecba44b0bd96f1523f37f133\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E There have been six Bail Amendment Acts in less than 10 years, with the most recent in 2011. We had the Bail Amendment Act 2002, Bail Amendment Act 2003, Bail Amendment Act 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, and now we have this Bail Amendment Bill. Surely, we are better than having these knee-jerk bills and legislation. We should do it once and do it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003ELaws are based on anticipated consequences that are sometimes never seen. We see horrific crime, but judges can go on only what they are given. We do not need more knee-jerk, populist laws; what we do need is proper resourcing. These knee-jerk laws need to be tempered. We have seen the police gasping for air, if you like, being under-resourced. We have got now a situation where more police than ever are leaving\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b71ea5db53648319ee4a12abef9e1ec\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This is not to do with the police. This is on bail, not the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224354e3761254089ba7a7745e949e15f\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I would say that this bill is funded to fail. I spoke with one of New Zealand\u2019s top barristers today, and he told me of a 17-year-old girl charged with the possession of a class A drug. The police said it was a class A\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273fd869789044c96b2aec861f007c6f0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b5a19b98ff41819da1164ed3cb324f\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc63fc21db5544ebbf9325a38f241aa3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! What you need to focus on in this bill in the Committee stage is the bail amendments\u2014nothing to do with the police. Just get back to the substance of the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aaa5fd6b63a405b873b04c59fe5539a\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I would like to say that the reverse onus of proof is wrong. It is against natural justice. It is against our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. We need to be tough on crime, but, equally, we need to be tough on bad legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003ESpeaking on the reverse onus of proof, I can say that I was told today of a case where a 17-year-old girl was charged with possession of a class A drug. The judge said to the police: \u201CWell, why do you not just do what they do at the airports and test it?\u201D. But the police do not have the resources for that, so they sent it to the Institute of Environmental Science and Research. That could have been a hold-up of over 7 weeks, and a 17-year-old girl would have been in jail for 7 weeks. It turns out that it was not a class A drug at all; it was a party drug. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EThis is just one example of why we should vote against this bill. It is populist and it is knee-jerk. We need good laws in this country. We need good legislation, not something that is just pulled out of a hat and is against natural justice. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac3aaf7f1c174f52b32fc6816ce654aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac3aaf7f1c174f52b32fc6816ce654aa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we move to the votes on the Committee stage. Although the parts and the clauses were taken as one question, I intend to put the questions on the parts and the clauses separately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Judith Collins to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 339 in her name to clause 19(2) be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003Ein new section 33(1A), insert \u201Ca\u201D before \u201CDistrict\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003Ein new section 33(1B), insert \u201Ca\u201D before \u201CDistrict\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222dac40bdd45541dd8135a15e1bd321aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000637\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 339 in the name of the Hon Judith Collins to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299ac917d0b884a7a80ebab11eedcbc19\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000638\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 334 in the name of Richard Prosser to clause 8 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2d45577353843e384a7aef0afa70f21\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000639\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 335 in the name of Richard Prosser to clause 9 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a155817b80c041aa99daf743577f035e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd7877f4391e4bd1834a9e345019f2a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 16\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000640\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 339 in the name of the Hon Judith Collins to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e6c147bfd7e4d09be17008b167b88ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c8dc0ee8355543d6a8595d40b17407de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022af180de2be484fef97ef45e4878e6304\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000641\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 339 in the name of the Hon Judith Collins to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bcbfc23d035a43ae8559b0b151eadeac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000642\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022986db87c24d449c0abc00513a1d239a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000643\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000644\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4b14d3a711649e5b6e7092858d60340\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002218221311e5c047f7b942d4fd2be7234a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218221311e5c047f7b942d4fd2be7234a\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Bail Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill will make it harder for those accused of serious offences to get bail. It will improve public safety and ensure the overall integrity of New Zealand\u2019s bail system. The Government is confident that the bill strikes the right balance between upholding public safety and maintaining fundamental rights, such as the presumption of innocence and freedom from arbitrary detention. The bill improves public safety by reversing the burden of proof in bail decisions for defendants charged with very serious offences such as murder and class A drug offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill also expands the list of offences where a defendant faces a reverse burden of proof when they are being considered for bail, if they have been convicted of one of these offences before. The new offences include kidnapping, aggravated burglary, assault with intent to rob, and sexual conduct with a child under 12 years or a young person under 16 years. All of these changes will make perfect sense for most New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827c9e8eb4888e143fb8ecca3e7dcd08e4a000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecf132b22ceb4be19f185098b3abaabd\u0022\u003ETuesday, 27 August 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5d27e8de0aa4bcdba9d10f5709f6eaf\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 28 August 2013)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213e7389a865c4a63b3fd2e1ed60bd834\u0022\u003EBail Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3d60540be4241c8967427b9a5d77022\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022bca1a4b4d60d48ea92f47fa13ba38e62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bca1a4b4d60d48ea92f47fa13ba38e62\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, Mr Deputy Speaker, to you and to the House. The Bail Amendment Bill also strengthens the ability of police and courts to deal with young defendants on bail. The current law includes a strong presumption in favour of bail for defendants aged 17 to 19 years. The original bill removed this presumption for those who had previously been imprisoned, as the data showed that this group had a high rate of offending on bail. The Law and Order Committee questioned the justification for the presumption for bail for 18 and 19-year-olds. This provision seemed to have rather obscure historical origins, and the committee recommended that it be removed. The Government has agreed to this change, although the original provision for 17-year-olds remains. This recognises the need, wherever possible, to avoid the incarceration of those under 18, in keeping with New Zealand\u2019s international commitments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill includes a statutory regime for electronically monitored, or EM, bail. This has been a useful aspect of our bail system for several years, but until now electronically monitored bail has been granted by the courts under their generic power to impose bail conditions. The Government believes that the time has come to make specific provision for electronically monitored bail in the legislation, to ensure that it is applied consistently and effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe original bill provided for electronically monitored bail to be administered by police, as it is at present. At the Committee of the whole House stage I tabled Supplementary Order Paper 339 to allow the Department of Corrections, as well as the New Zealand Police, to administer electronically monitored bail. The Department of Corrections already administers a number of other programmes involving the electronic monitoring of offenders in their homes, such as home detention and parole conditions involving residential restrictions. It makes sense to take advantage of this expertise by allowing corrections staff to assess defendants in their homes for their suitability for electronically monitored bail. Police, however, will retain primary responsibility for the oversight of defendants on bail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe member Richard Prosser has tabled two Supplementary Order Papers to bring in what would have become known as Christie\u2019s Law. This started from a petition put together by Mrs Tracey Marceau, signed by about 58,000 people, and that petition is currently with the Law and Order Committee. Can I just thank the member Richard Prosser for providing me with copies of the Supplementary Order Papers prior to the Committee stage, so that I was able to consider them. That is a matter that we would look forward to considering after the Christie\u2019s Law petition has been dealt with by the committee and sent back to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI have also taken note of comments made by some members in the debates regarding the slowness of matters passing through the criminal justice system. I could not agree more. It is absolutely ridiculous that people are on bail for 18 months, and that we wait in some cases for years for these serious matters to come through the court system. I can say that there is some hope already, and that is around the implementation of the Criminal Procedure Amendment Act, the Criminal Procedure Act Implementation Project legislation\u2014or the \u201CCPAI Act\u201D\u2014which is now in place. But also I look forward to the support of other parties for the Judicature Modernisation Bill, which I intend bringing to this House in the very near future, to speed up the system and have justice not only being seen to be done but being seen to be done in a prompt and efficient manner. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022059aaa11872347a4b550d0c1a06f4b96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022059aaa11872347a4b550d0c1a06f4b96\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Labour is supporting the Bail Amendment Bill as a relatively modest but nevertheless constructive way of dealing with the problem of offending while on bail. I say \u201Crelatively modest\u201D because the measures in this bill will tackle the problem around the edges but will not tackle the fundamental problem of why the level of offending on bail is so high. I want to come to that in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere is, naturally, in this country a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and I do not think any member of the House would seriously want to challenge that presumption. It is embedded in our system of justice. If we have a presumption of innocence, then we have a presumption that people will be granted bail. That presumption cannot be absolute. It would be crazy for it to be absolute, because you also have to take into account public safety when you are dealing with defendants who are charged with committing, in some cases, very serious offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ERight now the judge has the presumption and then takes into account, firstly, whether the defendant is likely to continue offending. If that is the case, then the person needs to be locked up. The second thing is whether the person is likely to abscond. Again, if there is evidence that that is likely, then remand in custody is appropriate. And, third, the judge takes into account whether the defendant is likely to do anything that might pervert the course of justice, such as interfering with witnesses while on bail. This bill does not fundamentally change the discretion of the judge or the decision that the judge makes\u2014presuming innocence but weighing it up against public safety factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe reason why change is needed, I think, has become very obvious in recent years. In the course of the Law and Order Committee hearing we heard from traumatised people who had lost family members\u2014murdered by defendants who were at that point on bail, having faced other charges on sometimes quite serious offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe particular case that achieved a lot of publicity was the case of Christie Marceau. It was a tragic case of a young woman murdered by a man who had previously kidnapped her, abused her, and then was given bail to live in close vicinity to the Marceau household. That family, understandably, wanted to know why. Why was bail given when the police had come out against the giving of bail? We heard from other families who had suffered similar losses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThose individual cases are backed up by statistics. Seventeen percent of those who are on bail go on to reoffend while they are on bail. Often it is for relatively small offences\u2014relatively minor ones\u2014but not in every case. In the 5-year period from 2006 to 2010, 23 people on bail went on to commit murder; 21 went on to commit homicide; about 763 went on to commit acts of a sexual nature, including serious sexual offending; and a whopping 7,146 went on, while they were on bail, to commit acts with the intent of injuring other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThose statistics look huge. I guess you have to see that fairly, in context. Those statistics represent a relatively small percentage of the 450,000 people who were bailed over that period. But it is not small if a member of your family is the victim of a crime committed by somebody on bail. Therefore, we needed to look at that, and we needed to do something to try to ensure that greater scrutiny is applied by judges in respect of people with a high likelihood of offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThat is what this bill basically does. This bill focuses on a reverse burden of proof. At the moment the norm is that if you do not want somebody to get bail, the police have to prove to the court that that person is not safe to bail. The reverse burden of proof turns it on its head and says that the defendant needs to demonstrate to the court that they are safe to release. The net impact of that, as we discovered in questioning people before the select committee, is that basically the judges will look more carefully at cases on the margin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI do not want to exaggerate the impact this bill will have. That would be unfair to the people who made submissions to it. We learnt that it will probably mean an increase of 50 prison beds. We are talking about more than 90,000 people being bailed each year. It will affect about 350 people because of the flow-through effect, and that has an impact. It is much more significant than Simon Power\u2019s ludicrous piece of legislation, which this Government put through before the last election, that had an effect on 10 people\u201410 people. That was, as an eminent professor of law said, simply window dressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIt will not have the same impact as the fundamental law that it is amending, the Bail Act, which I put through in 2000. That Act lifted by 200 percent\u2014210 percent, actually\u2014the number of people remanded in custody. That had a fundamental effect. I believe that it was necessary at the time, but, again, I do not want to create the impression that the answer to offending on bail is simply locking up more and more people. Every year we remand 43 people per 100,000 in custody while their trials are awaited. That compares with Australia, where the number is 30\u2014our 43 against 30\u2014with the UK, where it is 25, and Finland, where it is 10. So we are locking up a relatively high proportion of people on bail, and that is why I say that this bill just deals with things around the margins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat we have got to do is make some fundamental changes to the way in which bail works. These are the sorts of things that the Labour Party is considering. I am pleased that the Minister picked up the fact that if you have got somebody waiting 18 months before their case is heard, then of course there is going to be an increase in the likelihood of that person offending while on bail. Justice delayed is justice denied, and the increasing length of time before cases can be heard in court, particularly before the District Court in Manukau and Auckland, is where you have got to tackle this problem at its fundamentals. Let us look at making justice swifter so that the cases are not waiting month after month after month, when the person who is bailed, and more likely to be bailed because of the length of time they are waiting, is likely to reoffend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe second thing that we looked at was the ability of the police in practice to appeal a case where they applied for bail to be withheld so that the person would be remanded in custody and the judge came to a different decision. I am not saying that the judge was right or wrong, but if the police really believed that the person should be remanded in custody, they needed to have a way to appeal that decision swiftly. Otherwise it is theoretical. The person is let out and the police say: \u201CWell, the person is out now. We won\u2019t bother.\u201D The sense that we got at the committee was that police were not actually appealing cases, even when they thought the judge had basically got it wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe third thing we need to do is give the judge better risk assessment tools. You have got to say that when you sit in the court and you watch the judge making decision after decision, those decisions are made in minutes. They are not decisions that are made after great contemplation. They cannot be if you have got 91,000 bail cases a year, so you have got to do more to assist judges in terms of risk assessment. We need to look at that. Fourthly, and, I think, quite important, is that we need a better review process of where the bail decision, in hindsight, was wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to make something very, very clear. That is not about interfering with the judicial process. The review process needs to occur within the judicial system, maintaining judicial integrity and judicial independence. But the head of bench, perhaps, with the task of looking at cases like the Marceau case, could say: \u201CWe got it wrong, in hindsight. It had tragic consequences. How did we get it wrong? What can we do about it?\u201D. I think that that review system could be considerably strengthened and made more transparent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo what I am saying is that this bill does things on the margin. I am comfortable about extending the reverse burden of proof in murder cases and cases of serious violent and sexual offending. We had that in the original Act. Expand it by all means. I think that it makes sense where you have got serious class A drug charges. We know that more than a third of the people bailed on serious class A drug charges are out dealing again while they are on bail. Yes, of course a reverse burden of proof should be there, with the alleged offender having to prove to the court that it is safe to put them out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to touch on young defendants briefly. Look, if you are 18 or 19, you are an adult in every aspect of the law and therefore a special presumption\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ac04ee335f453283a1a07e1bb8a433\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec335cc450d475fb4d3b919d4506953\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of bail is not warranted in that case. If you are 17, and I will finish on this point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edb304a1a0114ec7b78d4841a8d4d172\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you will finish now. [Interruption] Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f71b8f0294aa471da978776b97bb597d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f71b8f0294aa471da978776b97bb597d\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak in the third reading of the Bail Amendment Bill. Firstly, I want to answer some of the claims that the lack of efficiencies that have been identified in the court system by Minister Judith Collins and by some members of the Opposition are somehow not being addressed by this Government. In fact, in the 5 years of this National-led Government, there has been an aggressive programme in this area to refine and make efficiencies in our court and judicial system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E The first one I want to talk about is the Criminal Procedure Act, which came into effect in July this year. It does relate to the Bail Amendment Bill, because the gamut of this bill falls within the judicial framework. The Criminal Procedure Act, which has only just come into effect, is already having an impact on reducing the backlog of cases that are waiting to be brought to trial. Of course, you have to acknowledge that it is not just the criminal system that causes some delays. There are always occasions where defendants, or people accused of a crime, need to take counsel from their lawyer. There are many reasons for delays, but this Government is aggressively addressing the issue of justice delayed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Judicature Modernisation Bill is also a very comprehensive piece of work, to be brought to the House by the Hon Judith Collins. It is designed to speed up court processes. It will allow for more powers to be able to manage judicial resources, so there will be efficiencies within the judicial system and it will allow for better administrative efficiencies. Knowing my local courts and having visited a few courts, it is a system that up until very recently has been paper-based and is still making the transition through to using audiovisual links. The Hon Chester Borrows is leading that work in our court system, and already it is having a beneficial impact on court waiting times and access to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ETalking about the bail system is about deciding what is going to happen to a defendant who is charged with an offence while their case goes through the criminal justice system. If a decision on bail is required, the basic decision that the court has to make is whether the defendant should be imprisoned or whether they should be allowed to be returned to the community with some conditions. The Bail Amendment Bill, contrary to what the Opposition might want you to think, makes some significant refinements for the better around those decisions about whether to award bail and under what conditions. The main provision in the bill is around reversing the burden of proof. So those charged with serious class A drug offences, such as the manufacture of P, will, on the enactment of this bill, be required to convince the judge as to why they should be allowed bail. Similarly, in respect of people who are charged with murder, the current list of specified offences, which has not been reviewed for some time since the Bail Act was enacted, has also been reviewed. So the bill expands the list of violent and sexual offences that result in a defendant being subject to a reverse burden of proof. It will be harder for those people accused of a serious offence to get bail in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI want to pay tribute to Tracey Marceau and the 84,000 others who signed the Christie\u2019s Law petition. I want to pay tribute first of all to the Marceau family. They have lost their beloved daughter in the most awful of circumstances. I want to commend them for having the courage to bring the Christie\u2019s Law petition to this House. The decision was made in the Law and Order Committee that we would not consider the Christie\u2019s Law petition at the same time as the Bail Amendment Bill. That was done for very good reason. The reason we decided not to consider those two items together is that we need to give the petition, the petitioners, the parents of Christie Marceau, and the other people who have been the victims of murder the due consideration of the matters they have brought to us. We considered that some of the items brought to us in the petition were out of scope with the provisions of the Bail Amendment Bill, and we would not have been able to do justice to the petition had we put them together. I want to assure the petitioners on behalf of Christie Marceau and the other victims of serious crime and murder that the Law and Order Committee is giving very serious consideration to their petition, and we will be reporting to the House when we have considered our deliberations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Bail Amendment Bill goes a long way to protecting New Zealanders. The Bail Amendment Bill goes a long way in National\u2019s programme of making New Zealand safer for New Zealanders. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a05e797e2fba413482d59e279191b9e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a05e797e2fba413482d59e279191b9e9\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in this third reading of the Bail Amendment Bill. I will just start with some first principles when it comes to criminal justice. There are two things we look to the criminal justice system to do. The first is to convict and to deal effectively with the guilty\u2014those who have committed crimes, those who have been found guilty after a consideration of the evidence and a decision made, whether by a judge or a jury. The second thing we require of the criminal justice system is to protect the innocent, because the truth is that the enforcement authorities can get it wrong, and they can get it horribly wrong and catastrophically wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOver the years, over generations, indeed over the centuries, rules have been built up in respect of those who face serious allegations of criminal wrongdoing from the State\u2014with all the resources that the State brings to bear upon that process\u2014to ensure that there are rules to consider the evidence and to ensure that those who are innocent, those who are not guilty, are properly safeguarded and protected. Part of that process is the time between when an alleged offender is charged and when they are tried. As other speakers have already noted\u2014Phil Goff, the Minister Judith Collins, and, indeed, the last speaker, Jacqui Dean, as well\u2014actually, we do have delays in our criminal justice system in New Zealand at the moment and we have had those delays for some time now. This is not new. That has made the decision about how to manage an alleged offender in the meantime a very important one. The longer the time between a person being charged and the time they get tried, that weighs against incarcerating them, because if they are subsequently found not guilty, then they themselves have experienced an injustice that we should not take lightly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the bail decision is a very important decision. But, as my colleague Phil Goff has pointed out, what we have seen in more recent years is that some who have been released on bail, free to move about the community but under conditions, have continued to offend on bail. So the balance has had to be restruck to ensure that when judges are considering what to do with alleged offenders, particularly those who have a prior track record, and especially when that prior track record includes convictions for the same or similar offences, judges are now more alert to the risk assessment needed to make a decision on whether bail should be granted. That is a healthy response to growing community concern about that particular issue. This bill, I think, seeks to strike that balance. I think, notwithstanding some ongoing reservations that we have, particularly about the treatment of young people, by and large this bill gets the balance about right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFor serious offences and where there are alleged offenders who have previous convictions for serious offences, it is no longer a matter of the police having to demonstrate why bail should be denied and why they should be incarcerated. It is for the defendant in the matter to demonstrate that they do not pose a risk to the community. I think that is an acceptable trade-off to make in our criminal justice system, where a track record of convictions clearly elevates the risk that an alleged offender poses and therefore is a matter for the judge to take into account and to say \u201CWell, all right. You\u2019ve had these convictions. You\u2019ve offended again. Clearly the risk is heightened, so the presumption would be to detain you, but you have an opportunity to demonstrate to this court why you should not be detained and why you should be released on bail.\u201D This legislation does not deny bail, or at least it does not automatically deny bail to alleged offenders, but it does heighten the hurdle, if you like, for them to jump in order to continue to enjoy their freedom until such time as they are tried on the charge that they face. It heightens the obstacle, if you like, for those on very serious offences and those on serious drug offences. I have to say, in light of events over the last few years, that I do not find that objectionable. When considering public safety and community safety, particularly the management of offenders and those with a track record, that is an acceptable standard to legislate for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is for the same reason that I think it is going too far to say that just because you have been charged with an offence, even if you do not have any prior convictions, that should lead to a presumption that you should be detained rather than being granted bail. I think that was the conundrum in the dreadful Christie Marceau case where the judge\u2014dealing with a young offender who had no previous conviction and was facing a serious charge, one of kidnapping\u2014had no information about what subsequently became known about that offender\u2019s mental health and made the decision to release that offender on bail, with the tragic consequences that it had for the Marceau family. The reality is that this law would not change that situation, in terms of the judge\u2019s discretion and what the judge has to do when dealing with an application for bail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think that highlights another very important point too, and that is that in the end it is the judges sitting in court, with the information provided by the police and the defendant, who are in the best position to make judgments about the management of the offender or alleged offender, as the case may be. There are repeated calls to limit, reduce, and, in some cases, eliminate judges\u2019 discretion when it comes to these matters of human frailty and humankind. I just register my strong objection to that. We charge judges with a very difficult task, and I do not know of any judge who, when dealing with a bail application or a sentencing and the possibility of incarcerating a person, does not take great care with that decision. Most of the applications for bail that judges deal with are on minor matters and do not need to be particularly taxing of a judge\u2019s time and intellectual effort, but in the very serious cases, judges do need to have the means, the time, and the resources to pay very careful attention to the matters before them. For that matter, I think anything more that can be done to assist judges and give them the means, the tools, and the methods to undertake a proper risk assessment of an offender or an alleged offender appearing before the court is all for the good. That is the sort of the thing that we should be encouraging when it comes to the effective administration of our criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding the reservations that we have had from the outset, because of a pattern that we have seen over many years now in our law of just shifting that balance, and while trying to secure public safety through the effective management of the guilty and those who act anti-socially, we have to make sure that we do not also, in that process, capture the innocent and treat them unjustly. That is always the difficult balance that the criminal justice system has to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOne of the good things that this bill does is it elevates bail applications in cases of serious drug offences to be considered by judges only, and that is as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI am going to conclude by just simply commenting again on one of the matters that appeared in the Minister of Justice\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 339, which was tabled only yesterday, and that is the issue of the management of electronic bail. Although the Minister gave an explanation today that she had not hitherto given, even after I requested an explanation from her office yesterday, that explanation still does not deal with the mechanics of how the Minister\u2019s discretion on who will be responsible for electronic bail is going to be exercised. It is all very well allowing it to be done by either the police or the Department of Corrections, or both of them. But how is a decision going to be made on who is best equipped to do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Minister says that the Department of Corrections is best equipped to do it. So why not give the job to that department? It already monitors those who are sentenced to home detention and to sentences that carry electronic monitoring. Why not give the department that job? Why provide in the law for either the police or the Department of Corrections, or both? We still have not had an adequate explanation of the way in which that discretion by the Minister might be exercised, and the grounds that the Minister might take into account on making that decision. Is it going to be done on a regional basis? Is it going to be done by simply just saying yes, both departments can do it and you sort it out amongst yourselves.\u201D? That remains an unsatisfactory element to this bill, and no doubt this House will have to monitor very carefully its application and implementation. But notwithstanding that, as I have said, we will continue to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022517db6cc707342b891f1d7dd44fb8402\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022517db6cc707342b891f1d7dd44fb8402\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to start my speech today just by questioning the use of urgency for this Bail Amendment Bill. The first reading of this bill happened 3 days after the bill\u2019s introduction in May of last year, and then there was 6 months between the Law and Order Committee\u2019s report back and the second reading. Now we find ourselves in urgency. It is hard to see actually what the urgency is, and it does seem to be that this is possibly more a case of poor House management than the actual urgency of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EFor more than a decade the Green Party has stood in this House and spoken up for a justice system that is consistent with our human rights obligations, based on the best evidence, fair, and principled. We have often been in a minority, taking this position, and it seems that today again there is no exception in this situation, as we are in a minority opposing this Bail Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis bill is another dog whistle to the \u201CGet tough on crime\u201D brigade, who have been feeding the myth that getting tough on crime will make us all safer. If only it were that easy, I suggest that we probably would have eliminated crime altogether back in the Dark Ages, but it did not happen. This bill has an admirable purpose\u2014to improve public safety and ensure the overall integrity of New Zealand\u2019s bail system. It is hard to argue with that as a purpose, but, sadly, by examining the evidence we know that it is not going to achieve these goals. These piecemeal, reactive changes do not serve the integrity of the system. We need a much more strategic, integrated approach to ensuring justice and safety in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EDespite the small likelihood of success, this bill does considerable mischief to some key tenets of our judicial system, such as the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise. It also erodes the importance of judicial discretion. These erosions of the central tenets of the legal system must be resisted. This bill seeks to further erode these tenets, so we will continue to oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill because it is another ad hoc measure that is not supported by evidence or sound principles. We oppose this bill because it reverses the burden of proof so that now someone with a previous conviction will have to prove to the court that they will not offend while on bail. I ask this House: how do you prove a negative? It is really a very difficult thing, if not impossible. We oppose this bill because it significantly reduces judicial discretion when hearing bail applications despite the exercise of discretion being a very basic principle of judicial practice. We oppose this bill because it compromises the presumption in favour of bail for those aged 17 to 19 who have previously been sentenced to imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis reverse burden of proof is a breach of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and this was noted by the Law Society. Within the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act it states that there is \u201Cthe right not to be arbitrarily \u2026 detained.\u201D There is a right when charged with an offence \u201Cto be presumed innocent until proved guilty\u201D. There is the right when charged with an offence to \u201Cbe released on reasonable terms and conditions unless there is just cause for continued detention;\u201D. This bill undermines those core rights. It changes the goalposts. There is a provision in this lawmaking process to override those rights, but there needs to be a strong justification for doing so, and in this case there is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe Human Rights Commission noted in its submission that the case for changing this law effectively relied on a reverse onus preventing less than one instance of serious violent offending a year\u2014less than one instance of that. When I say that, I am not undermining the huge impact of that one instance on those families and clearly that person themselves, but we do need to hold that in balance with the rights that are being taken from all the other people who will be affected by this law change. I need to remind this House that currently 60 percent of people remanded on bail are found not guilty. By extending this provision of not providing bail to people we are denying them liberty and freedom when they may not be found guilty. That is a very serious matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ERemoving the strong presumption in favour of bail for 17 to 19-year-olds who have previously been sentenced to imprisonment breaches a raft of our international obligations: the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Administration of Juvenile Justice, the United Nations Guidelines for the Prevention of Juvenile Delinquency, and the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child. All of these conventions emphasise the well-being of the young person and the avoidance of detention wherever possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe signed up to these agreements as a country because we recognised that they are in the best interests of our children and young people and our society as a whole. Yet this bill seems to have forgotten that, and it has forgotten all of the research that we have done as a country and that has been done around the world to find out what actually works to reduce youth crime. In 2000 the Ministry of Youth Affairs, as it was then, commissioned a meta-analysis of all the research that had been done into the causes and solutions of youth crime. This research found that persistent young offenders started young and started committing serious crimes fairly early, and were likely to keep offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe dog whistle brigade will say \u201CWell, that is just cause for this bill. We need to lock them up.\u201D, but what that research found was that persistent young offenders come from families overloaded with problems and under-equipped with coping skills. Young offenders show a range of problems that include \u201Csubstance abuse, criminal behaviours, accommodation difficulties, poverty, unemployment, mental health problems, violence, neglect and abuse of every type imaginable, poor education, and more.\u201D, and I am quoting from the report when I give that list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWith so much going on, they found that effective solutions need to use multiple techniques and touch on the four corners of a young person\u2019s life: family, school/work, peer group, and neighbourhood. They need to provide these young people with skills in how to avoid offending. This \u201Clock \u2019em up, throw away the key\u201D attitude does nothing towards that vision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThat same research found that residential interventions\u2014of which locking them up is clearly an example\u2014have to work so much harder to succeed and that getting tough with young offenders almost always fails. The Law and Order Committee already verified the failure of the prison system to address youth offending when it noted that young defendants who have served a prison sentence offend while on bail at a much higher rate than those with no history of offending. So why\u2014why\u2014when we have a chance to intervene and actually make a difference in the lives of these young people and reduce their chances of offending would we forget everything that actually works and respond by removing the fairness from the system and keeping them locked up longer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002247ef62a5172b4950a9e9fc35e1761781\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ef62a5172b4950a9e9fc35e1761781\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker, Jan Logie, said that the Government and the National Party have moved the posts, and that is right. We have moved the posts, and I am actually very proud about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Hon Judith Collins because for too long in this country\u2014yes, we have a system that is built on the presumption of innocence, and that is important and we will never depart from that\u2014I do not think we have actually given proper care and consideration to victims\u2019 rights. It is important that a victim is actually brought into the process, and I do not see anything wrong with actually putting the victim\u2019s rights ahead of an offender\u2019s rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the families that appeared in front of the Law and Order Committee, because that was a tough process for them to go through. It was critically important for us as a committee, because sometimes we can sit in this sanitised environment down here, and to actually hear the stories and to be able to understand the huge impact that they make on these people\u2019s lives\u2014and they will always have a huge impact on their lives\u2014was really important to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Tracey and Brian Marceau. They are the parents of Christie Marceau. I met with Brian and Tracey shortly after the tragedy, when Christie was murdered. Of course, it would be fair to say that they were still stunned at that point. Of course, Tracey has gone on, with the support of the Sensible Sentencing Trust, to campaign on Christie\u2019s behalf. I want to acknowledge them and I want to acknowledge the submission that they made to the select committee as well, because it was compelling, and I know that it sits in the forefront of our own minds when we are dealing with this Bail Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Hon Phil Goff and, of course, Kris Faafoi, who were on the select committee with us. I feel that we worked really well together on this bill. I want to acknowledge the chairperson, Jacqui Dean, and, of course, Richard Prosser, who took the time to put those Supplementary Order Papers 334 and 335 together and, as the Minister said, to get them out there early for review. Of course, I am disappointed in the Greens\u2019 position. David Clendon always has some interesting contributions to make in the committee. It appeared that the Greens had already taken a position on the bill and that was to oppose it, which was disappointing, but in some ways it does not surprise us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMr Goff made an interesting comment about making sure that the process in terms of getting offenders back to court was important, because offenders out on bail, if they are on bail for too long, are likely to offend. Well, to me that is almost counter-intuitive. If we are worried about that, then that is probably a good test to say that an offender should be remanded in custody, if the clock is ticking in terms of when they are going to offend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of the numbers that are going to be affected by this bill, it does have some real meat in it. All I would say to that is that if we can save one Christie Marceau\u2014save someone from having that happen again\u2014then this bill is actually doing the job it was designed to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to say that this is a very, very good bill. It was a pleasure to work on it. It is certainly in line with the programme that has been implemented by our Minister of Justice and Minister of Police, and I am very happy to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd222aca1d904ab28e8e46b6c134331b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd222aca1d904ab28e8e46b6c134331b\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak to the final reading of the Bail Amendment Bill. New Zealand First has supported this bill from the outset, and we continue to do so. I do not intend to impose too greatly upon the time of the House simply to go over old ground yet again. As I have stated several times throughout these debates, New Zealand First\u2019s only quibble with the bill is that, in some respects, we do not believe that it goes far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThis we have attempted to address through the introduction of Supplementary Order Papers 334 and 335 and by restating several times that we hope that the Government will not regard the culmination of this process of lawmaking as being the end of the problem. Rather, we hope and trust that the Government will come back to this issue once again, as soon as it is practical to do so, to apply the lessons that have been learnt through the process of this bill, to incorporate the information that submitters have brought to the knowledge of the Law and Order Committee, and to address the concerns of all those very fine people who signed, and were involved in, the petition initiated by the tragic and avoidable case of Christie Marceau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThe passage of this law has been a moving process for the select committee members. Under the very able chairpersonship of Jacqui Dean we listened to a number of very impassioned submitters, some of whom had experiences to recount that I am sure no member here would want to repeat. The commission of crimes against the person, crimes of violence, crimes against property, sexual crimes, and others are particularly obnoxious, and the stories that were told bore that out. There is raw emotion connected to this subject, and people have an expectation and, I believe, a right to expect that the Government will pay it adequate regard and will craft laws that will protect innocent people from the actions and the degradations of criminals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThe commission of crimes by offenders who are on bail is particularly difficult for ordinary people to stomach, and I believe it behoves this House, the Government, and all of us here to do our very utmost to ensure that the risk to the public is minimised. No system can be absolutely perfect, of course. This we know, and to a large degree we regret that fact. But laws can always be made better when there is will on the part of parliamentarians and when all parties and members from across the House resolve to work together for the common good, put aside petty differences, and work in the best interests of public safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EWhen this House next addresses the issue of bail\u2014and I hope it will be sooner rather than later\u2014I look forward to working constructively with the Government and with members of other parties to ensure that as much as is humanly possible is done to ensure that those offenders who pose a danger to other people are removed from the opportunity to express that danger. It is a balancing act; we accept this. Against the need to ensure public safety we must measure the right of those who stand accused to the presumption of innocence. Somewhere in between those two competing priorities a value judgment\u2014an informed judgment\u2014must be made by those who are learned in the ways of criminals, the criminal mind, and the likelihood of criminal behaviour. It falls to this House to provide those learned judges with the very best of tools\u2014with the direction and the guidance and the ability to set bail or refuse it, based on an accurate and informed assessment of the likelihood of further offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EWe hope and trust that this bill will be a stepping stone on the way to that situation being resolved. New Zealand First supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022066cff204ddc451fa52a10e55adc63da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022066cff204ddc451fa52a10e55adc63da\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak in support of this bill, the Bail Amendment Bill, in its third reading. I was a little concerned, I suppose, or I thought that it was unfortunate during the Committee stage yesterday when I heard a speaker refer to this piece of legislation as populist. I do not really think that \u201Cpopulist\u201D is a term that I would apply to it. I think it is a very structured piece of legislation that moves the bail system with the times, and I think it is really important that we do that. It is going to make quite a lot of difference to the way the system works. This bill is one of a suite of legislation introduced by National in a comprehensive programme of law and order reform that is unquestionably working, and I will touch on a little bit of that shortly. It is achieving much better results that one could have hoped for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThis bill improves the integrity of the bail process. It gives the police the ability to make positive decisions in respect of people who fail to answer to police bail, it tightens significantly the bail arrangements for defendants under 20 years of age, and it reverses the onus on those people to prove that they are capable and worthy of release on bail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAgain, we heard from the Greens. Unfortunately, it was from a member of the Greens who was never at any stage present during the submission process. I think that if one had been present during the submission process, one would take a very different view of this. When someone has proved that they cannot be trusted, surely the onus must go back on to them to prove that they can be trusted, and I think that is the simplest way of looking at the reverse burden of proof. It is really putting people who have proved in the past that they cannot be trusted in the position of having to prove they can be trusted before they can, in this case, receive bail. I do not think that is unreasonable or unjustifiable, and I certainly do not think it breaches people\u2019s rights. I think that once you have breached that trust, the onus is on you to sort yourself out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EPhil Goff, during the debate on this bill, has mentioned a number of times the 50 more beds required as a result of this bill. That figure takes no account of the great results that this Government\u2019s policies are achieving in reducing both reoffending and youth crime. We are seeing youth crime rates significantly down. Of course, youth crime is the area that applies particularly to this bill and particularly where we might have seen the significant increase in bed use, because that is the part of the bill that has the most impact\u2014the area of the younger people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAt the conclusion of the select committee process, we had the opportunity to visit the courts to get a better understanding of how the bail system works in practice. I was both surprised and impressed at the efficiency, and have a much better understanding of the pressures on both police and judges. I also understand the need for speed in the bail system. Information processes are essential to an effective, efficient bail system through our courts. Although there are always going to be issues with bail and the way it is granted\u2014there is certainly always going to be pressure on the courts because of the need for speed\u2014I think this bill has followed a really good process. It achieves a good position, given the situation that we are in and given the need to protect people\u2019s rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate the chair on what at times was a very difficult process. The chair, Jacqui Dean, and deputy chair, Mark Mitchell, have both appropriately acknowledged the Marceau family and other families who contributed to the submission process on this bill. It was a pretty testing time for many of them. So I have great pleasure in supporting this bill as it passes through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00221ad7bf3f45844be7ae4ae29dc9045d25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ad7bf3f45844be7ae4ae29dc9045d25\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the chance to take a call on the third reading of the Bail Amendment Bill. I do want to address some of the comments made by the Green Party member Jan Logie, because as a member of the Law and Order Committee\u2014and I acknowledge the others who are here today\u2014I know that this is a very complicated issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI also want to just touch on something that Ian McKelvie has just said, as I think I was at the same session as him when we visited the Wellington District Court to see the process when judges are making the decision around granting bail. To an extent, and I think it would probably be for about 85 percent of those decisions, they are very fast decisions made in a kind of factory floor way. But there are a number of offenders who are coming into the court system and, as we have seen, what has unfortunately happened is that the decisions made by judges have not necessarily been the best ones, and there has been reoffending while someone has been put out on bail. Although we support this piece of legislation with reservation, as my colleague Andrew Little has said, we think\u2014and we have supported it because of this\u2014that this piece of legislation is trying to get the balance right between the rights of offenders and the rights of victims. It tries to address the public mood of discontent of people out there and victims of offenders who have been put out on bail, and the growing unrest that that just was not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge some of the submitters who came to the Law and Order Committee. There was one particular session that Mark Mitchell, from across the other side of the House, has mentioned, when we were all in Auckland about a year ago. That was a particularly tough day, sitting through those submissions, and, obviously, much, much tougher for those people to come and give their submissions to us. I do want to acknowledge the Marceau family\u2014Tracey Marceau, the mother of Christie Marceau\u2014and also one submitter who for me stuck out and whom I still remember quite vividly, and that is Charlie Borrell, the father of Augustine Borrell, a young teenager who was killed in Auckland. Those two submissions, I think, brought home to a lot of people in that select committee the real pain that is caused by offenders who are going out there while on bail and, in those two cases, committing the ultimate crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI do not say that the concerns that Jan Logie has are unfounded and are not passionate, but I think, as a member of the select committee, that we needed to do something to appease or to please those families out there who came to the select committee, not just because of their own personal pain but to make sure that they prevented that from happening to other families as well. I do not think I could let that go without a response, and I say that, certainly on the Labour Party side of things, although this is a National piece of legislation, we do support it because we do know that there needs to be greater protection for the public out there, especially when you are looking at the types of offenders who were being granted bail. I just wanted to make that comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAgain, to those families and friends and the people out there who submitted to us, thank you, because it took a lot of courage to do that. There were some very emotional moments, and I thank them for making those submissions. I also acknowledge Ian McKelvie and Jacqui Dean from the other side of the House, and\u2014who else is here today; that is probably breaching the Standing Orders\u2014the other members of the Law and Order Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe headline clauses in this piece of legislation are clauses 7 and 8, and they are where we have got the reverse burden of proof for those people who have been convicted of previous crimes and who are charged with murder and other serious offences. One of the things that has already been mentioned here today is giving the judiciary better tools to be able to make better decisions when it comes to these bail applications. We certainly heard from the police about their processes around when they are opposing bail, but there was some suggestion\u2014and hopefully the Minister of Justice might be able to address this in the piece of legislation that she said will be brought to the House\u2014about giving our bench much better risk assessment tools, so that when a tricky case does turn up, judges might be able to make much more informed choices. We heard about the ROC\u066DROI system that the Department of Corrections uses to be able to assess how dangerous an inmate is and whether or not they will offend while they are incarcerated, and heard that might be able to be taken and used in a court setting. There was one submitter\u2014if I am reading my notes here correctly\u2014Susan Platt, who had done a bit of research internationally into some kind of risk assessment tool. She said that nothing had been done as of yet from all the international research and stuff that she was looking at, and that New Zealand could be a world leader if it took the case to be able to have a risk assessment tool for our judiciary. Hopefully, that might be something that New Zealand can do, because if we were able to do that and able to use the technology that we could pioneer and have in place, other countries could look at us to be able to make their communities much, much safer as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, there are some reservations that we do have around this piece of legislation. One of those reservations has already been touched on by members on this side of the House but also by the Minister of Justice, Judith Collins, and that is the delays in the court system. At this stage, I am not going to traverse that too much, because I think what has been said has already been said. I think it is good that the Minister of Justice has acknowledged that that is a problem, and hopefully that will be addressed in the piece of legislation that she will bring to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI do not think I need to take up much more time of the House. I just want to acknowledge once again the submitters who came to the Law and Order Committee. Although we do have some reservations, we do support this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002245ae621995814cc3857f27b858d9aa0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245ae621995814cc3857f27b858d9aa0d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a quick call on the third reading of the Bail Amendment Bill, and I want to congratulate the Law and Order Committee on all its work on what was a traumatic experience for all of the select committee members. I do not wish upon anyone the sort of evidence and hearings that they had to go through, so my hat goes off to the select committee for doing a pretty good job of shepherding this bill through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI have never in my political career ever used the words \u201Csoft on crime\u201D\u2014never. I have tried to steer clear of accusing anybody of being soft on crime, apart from today, when I do so reservedly, and I do so in the face of one of the Green members actually being a friend of mine, until today. Unfortunately, the talk that I heard from the Green member Jan Logie basically said to me that the Greens are soft on crime, and that is a term that I do not use lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E When we consider what has gone before, we see that this bill and even the bills before it on the criminal justice system are about protecting the community. They are about protecting the victims from more tragedy and more trauma. This bill is specifically in front of us to deal with those two situations. It is about protecting the person in our community who has been visited by crime. Whether it is a punch, a kick, a murder, or whatever, we have to do all we can to protect that citizen from more trauma and more crime. Look, I am not saying that if we had had this bill before Christie Marceau\u2019s tragic demise, it would have stopped that happening. Who knows? But we must always do our best to make sure that we protect those in our community who have been visited by such trauma and crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI once again say, and I do not make this point lightly, that that is what you get if you vote for the Greens. I have a message for the Labour Party, and yes, that includes the \u201Cdeputy Deputy Speaker\u201D\u2014Assistant Speaker Robertson. If Labour wants to hitch its wagon to the Green Party, then it had better be very, very careful where it does hitch that wagon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EAgain, I say to everybody on the select committee that it was a job well done. I think that New Zealand will congratulate the committee and congratulate the House on the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002223e07065c0194e3aae9d8c10c643d2ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Bail Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289a83f8e06b5444ba55e4a040627f502\u0022\u003EPublic Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4127cc7184e4edc9164e1709b29a534\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2285f2ad52b45adbd4dd8021b277dbc\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments relating to responsible fiscal management and reporting requirements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2f7d7eb664741f88603aac0411f46b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2f7d7eb664741f88603aac0411f46b6\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairman. Thank you for the call. I rise to speak to this bill, the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. Labour will be opposing this bill, and we do so with some concern, given that, generally, there is a history of bipartisan conversations on these bills, and given that it is about the long-term health of New Zealand\u2019s finances. We had hoped that an agreement could be reached between the two sides of the House, which have over many years shared concern for fiscal responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI have a number of questions for the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector, so I hope that she will take a call on some of the finer aspects of the bill. They relate directly to Part 1, because that is the part that we are now debating. Part 1 lays out the principles of responsible fiscal management. These principles in one sense are motherhood and apple pie. It seems to me to be a complete nonsense to say that past Governments have not had an eye or regard to these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI can hold up this graph to the Committee. I am not sure whether members will be able to see it, and whether you would be able to see it from there, Mr Chair, but it is a graph of New Zealand\u2019s debt track. It has a particular cut on it, and I might like to cut it differently, but the general trend shows that the National Government in the early 1980s had brought New Zealand\u2019s debt very high up. It dropped down over time as the Labour Government intervened in the 1980s, and the National Government of the 1990s brought the debt down a little further. Of course, we know that the last Labour Government ran 9 years of surpluses and really brought New Zealand\u2019s debt under control. Then at the end we have this flick in the tail where we see the global financial crisis kicking in. We do not blame the Government for all of the irresponsible borrowing that has gone on. Some of it, in fact, was quite responsible, and, as Bill English said of the Labour Government\u2019s efforts, this was the rainy day that we were waiting for. This is why we saved\u2014so that we could indeed spend when we were in a difficult spot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat spending, though, seems to have gone on without a real plan for the economy, and we do not see the growth that we might have expected from it. But it seems to me a nonsense that these principles in Part 1 were not considered by the previous Governments that brought this debt track down\u2014Governments of both stripes, actually. I mean, the real concerns that we have are at the beginning with the National Government of the 1980s throwing the debt up, and the current Government throwing the debt up, both without a real plan for the economy. But it is true that in between there was one National Government that was more responsible in terms of the debt track, and two very responsible Labour Governments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThese principles, as we read here in clause 4, include from new paragraph (e) of section 26G(1): \u201Cformulating revenue strategy, having regard to efficiency and fairness,\u201D. We can debate whether efficiency and fairness are being adhered to and what precisely those words mean. That would be a political debate, I suspect, because I would not find that the tax cuts in 2010 were particularly fair. Forty percent of the value of the tax cuts that the Government brought in went to the top 10 percent of earners, and those at the bottom\u2014the bottom 20 percent\u2014got just 2 percent of the value of the tax cuts, and then all that was swallowed up in the cost of living and GST increases. We all remember GST going up to 15 percent after the Prime Minister said it would not go up. So we can debate what efficiency and fairness mean in new paragraph (e), but these same principles were being, I am sure, debated by various previous Governments, as we observe in that debt track, including the predictability and stability of tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis current Government may be an exception and it may be that Treasury, with this legislation and other drivers of this legislation, is trying to rein in the current Government. It may have concerns behind the scenes, and it may be trying to impose a little discipline on this populist Government by saying: \u201CLook, if you are going to spend this money, you must have a forward picture. You must\u201D\u2014not you, Mr Chairman, but this Government\u2014\u201Chave a forward picture in respect of the predictability and stability of tax rates.\u201D Let us move through to the next principle in new paragraph (f), which states: \u201Cformulating fiscal strategy, having regard to the interaction between fiscal policy and monetary policy:\u201D, and particularly the principle about the impact on future generations in new paragraph (g). I think that what perhaps sits behind this wording is actually a concern from Treasury as to how this Government is performing. That is wonderful and ironic, but I do not think this piece of legislation will stop that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe provision about having likely regard to the impact on present and future generations is a genuine concern that we in the Labour Party share. However, again, this Government has taken some calls on superannuation. The Prime Minister has said that he will not increase the superannuation age while he is the Minister in charge of the Government. That is appalling\u2014that is absolutely appalling. We know that the cost of superannuation is overtaking the cost of education in our country, and that is education before school, education in the compulsory sector, and education in the tertiary sector. It will soon cost more for our superannuation requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe need a superannuation scheme in this country that is affordable and has longevity. On this side of the House we are concerned that everybody can have a fair retirement where their basic needs are looked after. We encourage other people to save more\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014but we have a regard to the long-term impact on future generations. This current Government, ironically, seems to be the one that does not, and that is why I say that maybe this legislation is an attempt by Treasury to rein it in. We used to talk about the debt anchor when I worked at Treasury\u2014the idea that Government debt would go down through 20 percent, and the last Government pretty much got there and left zero net debt for the current Government. So there is some irony that these are the objectives being put forward by the current Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI would ask the Minister in the chair for her view on whether these particular principles have been ignored by past Governments, because I think facts suggest that they have not, and I think this legislation brings nothing new. In fact, the Government is using parliamentary time to pass legislation that does not add much that is new and that does not have agreement across the House. That, to me, seems wrong. That does not seem like what we should be doing here as parliamentarians. It ought to be, in my view, that we can agree a long-term strategy for the health of the country in order to take this forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe other thing that needs mentioning, certainly in respect of this, is that part of the proposal\u2014in terms of the sustainability of spending over time that the Government was bringing, along with its support party ACT\u2014considered putting in a spending cap across Government finances. That spending cap, should it be implemented, would have devastating consequences. I am very pleased that that was thrown out along the way as a ludicrous idea. I am sure that it was considered further at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but I am glad that it has not made its way back into the bill, because that type of cap has been demonstrated overseas to lead to a lack of investment in infrastructure, education spending, social infrastructure, and those other things that are actually about that long-term sustainability. I am sure the Minister in the chair would agree that that long-term sustainability does not warrant that kind of spending cap, or at least I hope she would. It does seem possible, though, that there is an expediency thing here. Peter Dunne was the man who stepped away from that clause. It was something that National and ACT had agreed before the election, in their proposed arrangements, the confidence and supply agreements. So, again, there is a bit of an irony in these principles sitting here, when the kinds of suggestions that have been put forward by the Government in its confidence and supply agreements would undermine these exact principles. So that covers the principles that are there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe last principle is in new paragraph (h), which states: \u201Censuring that the Crown\u2019s resources are managed effectively and efficiently.\u201D Well, who would disagree with that? I do not think anyone in this Committee would disagree with that. I do not think, again, that the previous legislation would have precluded such a thing from taking place. I think that that is, again, what this graph I held up earlier for members demonstrates\u2014that various Governments of different stripes, both Labour and National, have had concern for the long-term debt track of New Zealand. Of course, the National Governments that have sent us in the wrong direction outnumber the Labour ones that have sent us in the right direction, I would argue. But I am not making a blanket statement here. I am saying there are good National Governments and bad National Governments, and that it does not matter what has been in the past legislation\u2014that has still happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo with those thoughts I will take my seat and look forward to what the next speaker has to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccb8580bde45443b95afe721d8fdd66e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccb8580bde45443b95afe721d8fdd66e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The issues that David Clark, who has just taken his seat, referred to were all relevant, but I want to hear from the Minister in the chair, the Minster for the Community and Voluntary Sector, why it is that she thinks this bill, the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill, has the credibility to introduce a provision that says, in clause 4, new paragraph (g) of section 26G(1): \u201Cwhen formulating fiscal strategy, having regard to its likely impact on present and future generations;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E First point: is the Minister saying that her Government until now has not done that? Because if she is saying that, well, that shows you what an irresponsible Government this is. Secondly, if she is saying it has already done it, does that not show that this legislation is meaningless? Thirdly, if you want an example of irresponsible failing to take into account the effects between generations, look no further than the Government\u2019s head-in-the-sand attitude in respect of the age of eligibility for superannuation. The cost has gone from $7 billion to $10 billion per annum since 2008 till this year. That is more than the cost of education within the next\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9230464263e4a219e6950d1c82af13e\u0022\u003EPaul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What are you going to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7e345de15f347bc99886a040ebfcbe8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We are going to increase the age of eligibility to 67 over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225657582b36a64be099b5e06a8f638686\u0022\u003EPaul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t solve the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8304f6d89a84cdc8d4d42b4d81ab3a4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It does not solve the problem, says Mr Goldsmith, another Luddite on the other side. What an absurd statement that actually increasing the age of eligibility does not have a substantial effect on the fiscal consequences further down\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669d0b182e8c4bf9ae715b548d504292\u0022\u003EPaul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Look at the Treasury report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285960da140434589991c0111cc8a9912\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have read the Treasury long-term report, and it says that if the age of eligibility is not put up, then unless Mr Goldsmith cuts other services he would have to increase GST from 15 percent per annum to 17 percent per annum. That is what the Treasury report says, Mr Goldsmith. So that is the first point to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second point is that it is very, very interesting that the genesis of this bill was with the confidence and supply agreement with Mr Banks. I want Mr Banks to take a call to explain how he has got any credibility on fiscal sustainability. When he was last Mayor of Auckland City he tripled council debt\u2014tripled council debt when he was last Mayor of Auckland City. That is quite apart from the extra debt that was taken on as part of the formation of the so-called super-city. A fiscal cap is a nonsense. The Christchurch earthquakes showed that if you had a fiscal cap, the Government could not have paid for the rebuild, or part of the substantial cost of the rebuild, in Christchurch because of a fiscal cap in legislation\u2014what a nonsense. What a nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe have seen the effect of that on things like education services in California. It once had amongst the best State-based education systems in the United States. It had a fiscal cap, and, as a consequence, it could not keep increasing spending for education in the way it needed to and, indeed, it had to cut its spending on education because it spent so much money on prisons. As a consequence, the Californian State-based education system is a shadow of its former self. That is the sort of policy that we get from the ACT Party\u2014ill-thought-out, and it would take this country backwards even faster than this current National Government is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe third point I want to make is that in respect of this sort of legislation, there should be agreement across the major parties, if it is possible. We asked for some pretty minor concessions in respect of this. We thought that the wording around monetary policy was one-sided and showed how ridiculous it has become that Treasury and the Government think that the only thing that is relevant in respect of monetary policy is what the Reserve Bank does. We said: \u201CWell, that\u2019s ridiculous.\u201D We think that there are obviously parts of monetary policy that are delegated to the independent Reserve Bank, and they should be, but there are other parts relating to monetary policy, including policy advice that the Government should get from Treasury\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fff0ace7f94293911b96fa1772806d\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t believe in contestable advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a0618877fe74b839b898a1fd4841ee5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be the case, Dr Clark. I cannot understand the Government\u2019s unwillingness at a time when monetary policy is in a state of flux around the world with these enormous trade surpluses in some countries and big trade deficits and current account deficits like New Zealand has\u2014currently the worst in the developed world. Yet the Government will not conceive that in respect of fiscal responsibility you have to have an eye on that as well, because fiscal settings do affect monetary policy and trade balances. But the Government refuses to agree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second area where we thought we should be making an amendment, if the Government wanted cross-party accord on this, was something like the Australian equivalent legislation, which refers to adequate national savings. Of course, New Zealand has national dissavings through our current account deficit\u2014the worst in the developed world. So I would like the Minister to respond as to why those issues could not be accommodated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002280c854791c694b93a1e3ac631d9d80e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280c854791c694b93a1e3ac631d9d80e6\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I too want to pick up where my colleague David Parker left off. Looking at Part 1 in clause 4, new paragraph (e) of section 26G(1), of the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill, the other interesting thing here, of course, is that it says: \u201Cwhen formulating revenue strategy, having regard to efficiency and fairness, including the predictability and stability of tax rates;\u201D. Well, again, as Mr Parker said, is this Government so bereft that it needs a piece of legislation to ensure that it achieves fairness? It may well be that it does, given that in the so-called tax switch we know that the top 10 percent of income earners got a massive 40 percent of that tax switch and the bottom 20 percent got 2 percent. So maybe it actually is important that there is a clause in here that reminds this Government that formulating revenue strategy should have fairness, should be predictable, should have stability of tax rates, and should be fair. I am glad the word \u201Cfairness\u201D is included in this, because, of course, nowhere in the Government\u2019s tax cuts has there been any fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have got to say, coming from Christchurch, that the ludicrous, idiotic proposal that was originally in this bill\u2014the henchman from Epsom, \u201CBrown Bag Banks\u201D, trebled expenditure in his time as Mayor of Auckland City, as my colleague David Parker said, and the biographer, Mr Goldsmith, who wrote the book about the great man Mr Banks is over there. Mr Banks trebled expenditure in his time as Mayor of Auckland City, yet comes to this Committee trying to gain some credibility before his problem with Dotcom and demands a spending cap, which is then torpedoed by the other sort of termite-ridden leg of the stool, Mr Dunne\u2014who, of course, has no credibility either\u2014who actually, to be fair to him, realised that that was a load of bunkum and completely unworkable. You know, we had a thing called an earthquake in Christchurch. If you have a spending cap, what happens there, with a natural disaster? It just shows that this Government is reliant on two rotten piles\u2014rotten piles\u2014in the form of Mr Banks and in the form of Mr Dunne, and it plays them off against each other, like Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber, to try to navigate through what it needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis bill is simply a political pamphlet. If a Government needs a piece of legislation that says it is to ensure the Crown\u2019s resources are managed effectively and efficiently, if it really needs a piece of legislation to tell it to do that, then something is wrong. But, as I say, I am pleased that the word \u201Cfairness\u201D is in clause 4, new paragraph (e), because those tax cuts were not fair. The GST that the Government put up, which it said it would not, was not fair to people. So it is good that at least one clause pulls on the small pangs of conscience that one or two of these Government members may have from time to time as they put through their polices that, as we know, benefit the top end of the street\u2014the \u201CParnellites\u201D, Mr Goldsmith\u2019s people, of course\u2014with the top 10 percent getting 40 percent of the tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E Well, I do not know. Will that contravene this law that talks about fairness? Because, of course, the Government defines fairness as that\u2014where the bottom 20 percent gets 2 percent. It is utterly meaningless. If it does not know what fairness is and what inequity is, then it should not be there. But, oh, the top end, the one from the North Shore, the one from Epsom, and Banks\u2019 biographer think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b4ca7aece1d46109b7fee72fa1e0abf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f5af14943404236ba285d0e56292238\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I said: \u201CBanks\u2019 biographer\u201D. I do not know what you thought I said. I would not go that low\u2014Banks\u2019 biographer. They think that is fair. They think that is fair in a taxation sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo, really, this is another John Banks special. This is political piffle. This is like writing down: \u201CI should be a nice person. I should make sure I send Mum a birthday card and a Mother\u2019s Day card. I need to be reminded of these basic human things.\u201D This is piffle. This is political posturing, and even Mr Goldsmith should be ashamed of this sort of stuff. We are wasting Parliament\u2019s time on this. If that member and that Minister need a piece of legislation to say that they should manage the Crown accounts effectively and efficiently, then they have got a problem. They have got an absolute serious problem. It would be nice if they did manage them effectively and efficiently, as we did when we had 9 years\u2019 worth of surpluses and zero\u2014zero\u2014Crown debt. We had zero net Crown debt\u2014zero. That is called managing effectively and efficiently, and we did not need a piece of paper\u2014as the Minister scowls at me\u2014that said: \u201CDr Cullen, you need to manage the Crown accounts effectively and efficiently.\u201D We just did it because it is the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229edf5cac5ca944089ad70358a90ad75b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229edf5cac5ca944089ad70358a90ad75b\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I note my colleague Mr Cosgrove\u2019s reference to the biography I wrote. He, of course, is jealous that I would never write one about him. I have written about successful people over the years, and so that is the problem there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI am very disappointed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0d01fa2d56c45f2ba35c1930221c1d1\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: How many copies did it sell?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022969882ccaf7c495f8f71916fa819e533\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of copies, actually. I am very disappointed that the Labour Party has walked away from this bill, the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. I would like to acknowledge the work of the former chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Committee Mr Todd McClay, who worked very hard to get bipartisan support for this bill. We heard a lot of very lengthy monologues from David Cunliffe as he worked his way through this bill. We listened, we listened, and we listened, for hours and hours, and there was a lot of talk about just how well he understood all these issues. We listened and we thought, as a result of all that, that we may have some support across the table for this bill, but we were disappointed to find that Labour could not find it in itself to support what in the past has been something for which there has been bipartisan support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI suppose this is part of a pattern that we see from the Labour Party. It is pulling away from coherence and consistency in its support for the Reserve Bank legislation that we have. It has pulled away from bipartisan support for national security, and now from support for fiscal responsibility. It is not my job, of course, to offer political advice to the Labour Party, but I would not have thought that leaving the middle ground of politics was necessarily a wise idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c980f390283a41f0aef7a9dbfca0de72\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This sounds like a third reading speech, not a Committee stage speech. He has not addressed the bill. Part 1 is what he should be addressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022830965b72e4a4fa494d1a6ef882c87bf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for bringing that to my attention. The honourable member might like to\u2014relevance; relevance, Mr Goldsmith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022763bb1ad4cfa42a89dc9a8c22fe33938\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b98d4a3346a4e36826926315b1a641a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: But it is Wednesday morning\u2014or, I should say, Tuesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7de2f9ae3404f829a63e2eb887dda68\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Quite right. I want to refer to some of the points that the previous speaker, Clayton Cosgrove, made in relation to clause 4 of Part 1, which amends section 26G(e) of the Public Finance Act, where he talked about efficiency and fairness. It is important to be reminded of these basic principles, because we did have a glaring example in the previous administration where the 39c tax rate opened up a gap between the top tax rate and the trust rate, which led to massive inefficiency. Suddenly, as we saw in the long-term graph of Treasury\u2019s report, there was this great blip of people earning $59,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt is that sort of lack of understanding of how tax works that leads to problems, and it is why this legislation is here. Legislation is never going to force a Government to act responsibly, and it is never going to require political parties to act in a responsible manner, but it does lay a groundwork and a framework that can guide people. This legislation is about updating that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe main aspects that are part of this bill are introducing a new principle that will require the Government to be explicit about the interactions between monetary and fiscal policy at different stages of the economic cycle. I think that is a significant contribution. The second principle is that the Government should formulate fiscal strategy in regard to its likely impact on present and future generations. Again, we had Mr Parker on his hobby horse about superannuation, saying that the world is going to come to an end. \u201CChicken Little\u201D is running around. Here we have doom and gloom at the prospect that New Zealanders are going to live longer. Oh dear, what a terrible thing that is! New Zealanders are going to be living longer and healthier lives, but this is apparently something that we need to worry about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ETreasury\u2019s fiscal proposal is that the amount that we spend on superannuation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e8904d6d3d4915b5614404ea4132c4\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t you say that the other day at the super conference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e591e52c6cbd4d4294e4059bcdb75e78\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I did\u2014goes from about 4.6 percent up to about 6.4 percent. Well, at the moment we are looking at Germany at 10 percent, so I would not have thought that was the end of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere is a decent debate about how you measure that. We saw a recent report from Michael Littlewood at the University of Auckland where he thought that Treasury had overestimated those figures, and that around 2030 we would probably be looking at closer to 5.5 percent, because GDP will be bigger because people will work longer and live longer and healthier lives. If Labour thinks that that is the big issue that we need to be grappling with, well, that is fine. You can have that debate. That is indeed what this whole process is about with the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Bill\u2014that we should be having those debates. I appreciate Labour\u2019s point of view, but I happen to think it is wrong on that one. That is why we are working where we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe third principle, if I can just return to Part 1 of this bill, is about reporting requirements for Governments to set out the priorities for resource allocation, and explain how these priorities are influenced and how they are influencing decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfae9ab8ee534767bd0c5640257dc02a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Wow! Amazing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b161b824686e4f2c96dabdb9ed11c478\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is easy to mock. It is easy to mock, but it is an important principle. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c29a03a0427432cacd5e2c043ddc449\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225550949161534e7bbe6bd4ea1e7295b1\u0022\u003EPart 2  Transitional provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000147\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 279 in the name of the Hon Bill English be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227a5d14f4f3454293a3da0f46458d68ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002216da0fc9e8ae420cb1c956a03db05ebf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275a362b7614e4664b6716e77dce9c27b\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022894126e12d79402f811c1e4a560e3f0b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223531bb20ca174c03ad81608dffde4102\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ebac8ce3361d491a800d6f315e921302\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000149\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000150\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab99d70186c149db8acc80c29da746fe\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac2e079c719c42a99337670a611481a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac2e079c719c42a99337670a611481a3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. One of the strengths of governance in New Zealand that is internationally recognised has been the broad political support for the Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1994 and subsequent amendments to it. If I can just remind the House of the essential structure of that Act, which we are amending, the provisions specify a set of principles for responsible fiscal management in the conduct of fiscal policy. They are principles we often look to. First, the principles require Governments to achieve and then to maintain, for instance, prudent levels of debt; second, the provisions require regular public reporting by the Government on the extent to which fiscal policy is consistent with those principles; and, third, and probably most important, the provisions of the current Act provide for regular independent updates from Treasury, including a pre-election update and a statement on the long-term fiscal position every 4 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe provisions are not prescriptive about fiscal strategy\u2014in particular, they do not define, for instance, what a prudent level of public debt is, recognising that different levels are appropriate in different circumstances. They essentially require transparency for the Government to set out its objectives and intentions and then report against those. In practice, I think successive New Zealand Governments have found that the framework has a pretty good balance of transparency and flexibility\u2014that is, on the one hand it is well within the power of the Government to change the fiscal objectives, provided that it says that that is what it is doing, but on the other hand it does lead to systematic transparency. These institutional arrangements are now recognised and used internationally because of the proven benefits for fiscal management. These amendments that we are debating today and putting through the House are simply improving what is already a well-proven framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI will pick out just a couple of the amendments because I think they are quite important. One is a new reporting requirement for the Government to look back and assess its performance against its fiscal strategy. Why does that matter? You would think that that is what would happen. Well, it does not actually happen. What actually happens is that the Government announces a Budget, then over the subsequent 12 months Treasury revises its forecasts for that 12-month period at least twice\u2014that is, at the half-year update and then at the following Budget. Treasury adjusts its forecasts for the 12-month period according to the most recent information, which means that by the time you get to the end of that 12 months and the public accounts are released, the Government is actually comparing the actual out-turn with the most recent Treasury forecast, which could be two cycles away from the original Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis tends to hide significant variations from what the Budget was. For instance, the out-turn for the 2012-13 year will be compared in the first instance, under the usual framework, with the most recent Treasury forecast, which was actually done in May. You can imagine that the forecast done in May will show a much smaller variance against the end-year figures than the forecast done in the Budget 12 months ago. So it hides variation. It also means that the Government is not inclined to look into what actually happened over that 12 months in order to understand what was driving any significant shifts. It is not prompted to do that, because the variances look small. In my view, just from watching these cycles over the years, it is actually quite important that the Government looks back and that we have institutional arrangements that require that to happen, because, in the absence of those arrangements, it simply has not happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EA second feature of these amendments, which I think is probably generally agreed, is that the Government is a bit more transparent over issues such as the interaction of fiscal and monetary policy, and the impact of decisions today on future generations. I want to deal with those just briefly. In respect of the effect of decisions today on future generations, what we have learnt from, I think, recent years, the last decade or so, is that decisions that look relatively small in the short term can have significant long-term outcomes. It is quite telling, in my view, that every time Treasury has done a long-term fiscal forecast, the outcome of that has looked better than the previous forecast, and that is going right back to 2000. We now have 12 years or 13 years of these forecasts in different forms. Each one paints a more favourable picture of our ability to manage an ageing population. Some might say that that is false comfort, but I think the provisions of this Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill are going to ensure that it is pretty clear what the track is out in the future, and that Governments are well aware of the longer-term implications, both positive and negative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe other amendment that is part of this bill is around the interaction of fiscal and monetary policy. That is really just codifying, I think, what has been practised by different Governments over the last 10 years to 15 years. It is pretty clear that it is to everybody\u2019s benefit that the Reserve Bank, in taking its positions about monetary policy, has a good understanding of what the Government\u2019s fiscal policy is. As far as I can see, there has always been satisfactory communication between Governments and an independent Reserve Bank over that issue. So I would not imagine that this amendment is going to make much difference to the practice, but it will codify it. This is just adding a couple more tools to the tool kit that New Zealand Governments have to retain prudent fiscal management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIf there is an area that I think still needs further work in the future it is the way that Governments deal with capital. Governments have large balance sheets. There is going to be a bit of a tendency, I think, for the policy focus to shift to capital and the balance sheet, away from operational spending, because operational spending is now quite transparent. Changes in it have to be made transparent. There is a general public expectation that we should have a Budget in surplus and then make prudent dispositions of those surpluses. That is going to tend to push the political debate to other ways of redistribution, other ways of shifting value around in our communities. Those are going to be much less transparent if they are conducted through the balance sheet. I think that might be a fair way to represent some of the current policies of the Opposition, for instance, but it is not to say that Governments might not be tempted to push in that direction. So getting some greater transparency around the use of the Government\u2019s balance sheet and changes in the value of that balance sheet driven by policy decisions is probably one of the next challenges in the further evolution of our Fiscal Responsibility Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. It takes us further along a track that has been good for New Zealand. It has had broad support, and I hope that that support will be reflected in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00226da4c387fd0a43aaabe9a2f9a9004096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226da4c387fd0a43aaabe9a2f9a9004096\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Can I begin by thanking the Minister of Finance for his speech and saying that I agreed with much of what he said in his speech. The Labour Party agrees that it is appropriate that we have fiscal responsibility legislation. We think that New Zealand has done well since having the high levels of debt it had when National\u2019s the Rt Hon Mr Muldoon left office. New Zealand at that time had amongst the highest Government debt in the world. One dollar in five of the tax that was collected off New Zealanders was being spent on interest, and that amount, on the then track, was heading to one dollar in four if the New Zealand Government\u2019s finances had not been brought under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI also agree that one of the strengths of the fiscal responsibility legislation is the obligation on Treasury to produce, for the Minister to sign off, a pre-election fiscal update. I also agree that we should be striving to do better on all of these things over time. I think it would be wrong if I did not note what I thought was a pretty sloppy piece of work by Treasury at the last election in respect of allowing the Government to book the proceeds of asset sales in the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update without accounting for the loss of revenue that would flow to the Crown as a consequence of the dividends flowing from those assets that were sold going to someone other than the Government\u2014that is, Treasury allowed the Government to book the proceeds of asset sales without making any allowance for the loss that would accrue to the Government following the sale of those assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt was not until subsequent Budgets that Treasury was forced to admit, for the first time, that the loss from the sell-down of the State-owned enterprises would increase the Government\u2019s Budget deficit by about $100 million per annum, because the capped rate at which those shares were sold was higher than the cost of Government borrowings so that the money that was saved through avoided borrowings or debt reduction was less than the profits and dividends foregone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E I think that is still a pretty shameful episode in respect of the fiscal responsibility legislation. In fact, I know of no more glaring error, made worse by Treasury and the Government by the fact that when that was pointed out by the Opposition, including me, during the election, the Government denied it and Treasury stayed mute. I think that that was pretty poor governance in New Zealand under the existing fiscal responsibility legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EHaving said that, it is basically good legislation, but at one level it is motherhood and apple pie. We used to have all these books around. I think they started with DOS for Dummies, then Windows for Dummies, and then Excel for Dummies, and it looks like this bill is a bit like \u201CFiscal Responsibility for Dummies\u201D. Does a Government really have to be told that we have to take into account the effect of Government finance decisions between generations? The prior Labour Government did not need to have that written in legislation in order to set up the Cullen fund to help pre-fund the future, growing cost of superannuation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe prior Labour Government did not need to be told that in a time of plenty you should run Budget surpluses, even if the National Party, then in Opposition, was opposing those surpluses as being too high. We knew that that was the proper thing to do, and that is why we reduced gross Government debt from 38 percent to 18 percent of GDP and net Government debt to zero. We knew that that was the right thing to do. The fiscal responsibility legislation reminded us of that, but there was no need for us to be told that we had to achieve fairness in the tax system or fairness between generations, because we knew that that was a duty of the Government. Any Government that does not know that is not fit to govern. I think even this Government knows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a7a70fbae54dea8e0771fdca040596\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re not; no argument there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f2e3f662ff4fb4ae014004d93e8f49\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we have got Rusty on the other side there, chipping in and suggesting that the prior Labour Government did not understand that. We concede that the current Government understands that. It is just not credible to suggest that either side of this House does not understand those basic duties of Government. They do not need to be set out in amendments to this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to address a couple of other issues. I was disappointed that in the Committee stage, in respect of the pretty minor alterations that the Labour Party side wanted in respect of this legislation, the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector, did not address why the Government could not move on that in order to get cross-party support for this legislation. The Minister of Finance, in his contribution, did not address any of them either. The reality is that those requests were reasonable and principled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe heard Mr Goldsmith say in his contribution that the future cost of superannuation, growing as it is, and Government spending on superannuation will exceed education expenditure within 2 years. It already exceeds all welfare benefits for the unemployed and the unwell, plus the accommodation supplement, plus the Working for Families tax credits. Superannuation already exceeds those in total, and he said that issue does not need to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWell, I was at a meeting on superannuation the other day, and Mr Goldsmith was there. The same question was put to us from the audience, and he was very careful in his words. He did not completely dis the Government but nor did he make a fool of himself in front of that audience. What he said was that some future Government will have to address the issue\u2014just not National; just not National. So his head is in the sand, and he is denying what is probably the biggest cause of increasing Government expenditure outside of health. Health costs are more unavoidable and harder to change than the age of eligibility for superannuation. So I thought that there was an example of where Mr Goldsmith thumping his chest in this House was unnecessary. But when he was speaking to actuaries, people from the savings and superannuation industry who know these issues as well as he and I do, if not better, he took a different tune. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAnother issue that Mr Goldsmith raised in his contribution was that because of the prior Labour Government putting up tax to 39c in the dollar for higher-income earners, there was a tax wedge between the trust rate and the highest income tax rate. That wedge led to tax avoidance, and that had not been fixed by our Government. Both of those propositions are true. I accept both of those propositions, but you fix that by not letting trusts be used for tax avoidance. Trusts have got a very proper role in society but it should not be as a tax avoidance vehicle. The answer for this Government in respect of all of these things is just to cut taxes for the wealthy. That is not a solution. The wealthiest people were avoiding tax through trust structures, and those loopholes should have been closed. It should not have been the case that it cut the highest tax rate, giving 40 percent of its income tax cuts to the top 10 percent of the population, as the Government did. It should have addressed the problem of tax avoidance through trusts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe had advice from Treasury officials in respect of fairness between generations that it would not affect the Government\u2019s decision not to address the age of eligibility for superannuation. As the Hon Clayton Cosgrove said in his contribution, that shows you that this legislation is pretty meaningless. It is window dressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b5a18d700a4b98920fc97248f37a0c\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, shocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218118414cbef4e33964c58108deb78c0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we have David Bennett. He made a similar intervention during the second reading. At that time, I had said that the proposed spending cap that was originally a part of the confidence and supply agreement with ACT\u2014and that was the progenitor of this bill\u2014was nonsense. I said that those sorts of fiscal caps were ridiculous and caused problems overseas, and he said that I was talking rubbish. Well, I will remind him, as I did then, that the country that is probably the exemplar of how caps as a percentage of GDP are wrong is the United States. California, in the United States, used to have one of the best State education systems in America. Then it introduced a fiscal cap and it could no longer properly fund education. As a consequence, the education system in California has gone from being one of the best State education systems to one of the worst. That is what happens when you have inappropriate fiscal caps. If we had a fiscal cap like National agreed to in its confidence and supply agreement with ACT, we would not, as a country, have been able to properly fund the Christchurch rebuild. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of capital spending, I agree with the Minister\u2019s statement that there is more work required to better and more transparently deal with the capital spending and capital assets of the Government. My last point is on monetary policy in New Zealand. We think that the amendments we had to the wording would have made that better. We also think that there should have been a reference to national savings. Neither of those was agreed to by the National Government, and that is why we are opposing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002243052ed06fa74cd5b743ea5a18e851ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243052ed06fa74cd5b743ea5a18e851ba\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very disappointed that Mr Parker and the Labour Party have found a reason to not support this Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill, this very important bipartisan bill that has usually been held to by all parties in the House. It is unusual to find the Greens and New Zealand First certainly being more responsible on such a matter. We tried hard during the Finance and Expenditure Committee process. We listened to Kevin Rudd\u2014I am sorry, I mean David Cunliffe\u2014making long speeches in the select committee, working on all the details, and huffing and puffing. We listened to all that and we thought we had made something that everybody could agree with, and Labour did not support this bill. That is very sad for the country, given that that glue that holds us all together in our agreement over basic fiscal responsibility has been weakening as we have seen Labour losing its way, I think. It used to be the party for the workers, and it is no longer. I think National is the party for the workers these days, for the people who look after themselves, who look after their families, who work hard, and who are involved with their community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe recognise that the world does not owe us our living standard, that it is not written in stone that New Zealand will always be one of the rich places in the world, and that we have got to go out in the hard world and make a living. Mr Parker says that what is being talked about in this fiscal responsibility legislation is all motherhood and apple pie. Well, you can look at plenty of countries around the world that have not understood that motherhood and apple pie idea. They have not understood that you have actually got to spend less than you earn and that Governments have to be responsible over a long time. New Zealand has been very fortunate that, broadly speaking, parties have all understood that. I do acknowledge that for a long period the previous Labour Government did hold a basically responsible approach. I criticise it in the sense that it left us at the end of its 9 years with a whole lot of spending projections and a whole lot of decisions that were leaving the country pregnant with debt, which was going to be building up over the next 5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, we have had a tradition. It is a very important tradition and I think we should be reinforcing it, not finding excuses not to be supporting this fiscal responsibility bill. The Western welfare States all around the world are having to face up to the fact that we have to change\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254252d4652e0425688b9655dacdbbc3d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224664f945a0e0459693d35ea680d8ded9\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928bc37967f94b748c39c098b56facbd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is all right. I think someone is using a telephone in the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221830de30347d491eac86f7b523f9aad7\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fabd7ec514fd4c2d9eacca749c8743e9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and this is not a call centre. This is a debating chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc8fe9445d68470dbed5f2184224cf2e\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, and these are grave matters that we are debating. So Western countries are facing up to the challenges, and the good news in all this is that New Zealanders can adapt. They can see that the world is changing and that we cannot just expect to have an entitlement culture dominating the way that we see the world, but we have to go out and work hard and make a living. So it is about controlling expenditure, and this Government has a very good record on controlling expenditure. Nobody believed that we would be back in surplus next year, but we will be. We are reforming the welfare State that we have inherited, for the first time in seven decades, and getting some practical boundaries around the welfare State, and that is going to make a big difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EJust drawing in on the bill itself, I think that one of the more important aspects of it is the tweaking that it has done in the reporting requirements for the fiscal strategy reports, and, in particular, I want to make note of requiring fiscal strategy reports to be clear about what the Government is trying to achieve and how its management of the Crown resources contributes to its goals. I think that puts its finger on the issue. I would be interested to hear from Labour speakers, because Labour increased spending on health by 50 percent, for example. But that is not an end in itself. Just because you have increased spending by 50 percent, it does not automatically make the world a better place, so what were the outcomes that it actually achieved with that 50 percent increase in spending? That is the thing that we need to be focusing on, and that is how this Government has turned things round and has focused on asking: \u201CWell, OK, what are we trying to achieve in health? What are the results that we want to get in terms of immunisation and in terms of access to surgery and those things?\u201D. Increasing the results in that area is the important thing. When you shift that focus and concentrate on results, you get a far more disciplined approach to spending. So that, ultimately, over time, will be one of the great contributions of this Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf4e4ed6e0ae4166864a32ca2e560999\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf4e4ed6e0ae4166864a32ca2e560999\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That speaker, Paul Goldsmith, talked about the need to be fiscally responsible, which, as my colleague David Parker said, is something that is agreed on in this House. You would have to say, reading this sort of lightweight stuff in here, in this Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill, that the Government sort of needs its own wee guidebook to be fair, to be equitable, to take account of future generations in its expenditure, to \u201Cformulate fiscal strategy with regard to [the] impact on future generations\u201D, and to \u201Censure the Crown\u2019s resources are managed effectively and efficiently.\u201D It needs a wee guidebook, apparently, to ensure that it adheres to basic fiscal principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe over here do not need a guidebook. It is sort of in our DNA\u2014it is how we were brought up. But to the member Mr Goldsmith, who apparently has a monopoly on representing the working class, all the way from Parnell to Epsom\u2014the man who was John Banks\u2019 biographer, and who apparently has a monopoly on representing the working class\u2014I just make this point. Is it fiscally responsible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd73fbbd69e54e60a18ba741ac413662\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Harvard. Herne Bay. Working class\u2014where does that fit in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022600d6b373b41435ab7dc8cb26fdfb51e\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: What was that, \u201CBilliard Ball\u201D? Is it fiscally responsible for a Government to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars a week to put in place a tax cut where the top 10 percent get 40 percent of that tax cut and the bottom 20 percent get 2 percent of it? I just put that question. Is that fiscally responsible? Is that within the parameters of this \u201Cpolitical pamphlet\u201D full of piffle in here? Is that fiscally responsible? I would argue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df88a3e6733541a0ae62af3019496d3e\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Could be fairness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022033dca293f8e487ab7eb02f42112d243\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe it comes under fairness, my colleague Mr Clark says. I think he is saying it tongue-in-cheek\u2014I know he is\u2014but it does not sound fiscally responsible to me to borrow hundreds of millions, and its peak I think it was $300 million - plus, per week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAnd those members talk about borrowing! They say that we were fiscally irresponsible. Well, what the genius from the Waikato over there forgets, of course, is what his Government did inherit from us, which was net Crown debt at zero\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ed0677c0564db59326fd0c4221569e\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259f40840a9a74c3a89509913549053d0\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014net Crown debt at zero. The recession\u2014I mean, maybe Mr Bennett lives in a very myopic, little world and does not realise that there is something called globalisation and an international fiscal crisis. Maybe he thinks that New Zealand initiated the whole global collapse, you know, in his own little world out the back in the bush in the Waikato, but the deal is that these people\u2014this Government\u2014inherited 9 years of surpluses and net Crown debt at zero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs I have said previously in this House, I remember as an Associate Minister of Finance being pilloried, along with Michael Cullen, by one Bill English, the shadow finance Minister, and I never thought in the history of my time in politics or when reading about it as a kid that I would hear a National Government attacking a Labour Government for being too tight and not spending a lot. I never thought in my wildest dreams that I would ever hear that from this crew over here, but what they wanted was for us to spend the lot. They said we were mean. Remember the \u201Cblock of cheese Government\u201D\u2014the mean, awful Labour Government that would not go and tax and spend, and borrow and hope? That is exactly what these geniuses over here have done for the last 5 years: borrowed, given a tax cut to their mates, and been propped up by every other person, sort of 80 percent of the people, who has had to prop up their mates to pay for it. They have been borrowing $300 million a week. So I just ask them, is that responsible? Mr Bennett was interjecting about debt. I say to Mr Bennett that I am happy for him to get up and have a crack. Is borrowing $300 million a week fiscally responsible? Oh, hang on, the boy from the Waikato is suddenly silent. He has lost his tongue\u2014lost his tongue. Oh, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe second thing I would say in terms of fiscal responsibility\u2014because this bill is some sort of National Party bible; National needs an instruction book as to how to be told to be fiscally responsible\u2014is about selling assets. Today we hear with regard to Meridian Energy that $140 million worth of divvies is not going to 4.4 million people; it is going to those shareholders who had a lot of money and could afford it. Is that fiscally responsible? We also know that the money raised from the Mighty River Power deal is not going into hospitals and schools; the money is going into giving advice on risk management to the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. I suppose there is some value in resourcing the Prime Minister\u2019s department, given its recent track management on risk management, but that ain\u2019t a school or a hospital or a road or a bridge the last time I checked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe money, of course, the millions of dollars going into free shares to pay for the free shares, the giveaway or the bribe to people in the Mighty River Power deal, the incentive scheme\u2014where was that paid for? Out of the Future Investment Fund, we know, because those figures are in Mr English\u2019s Budget. Is that fiscally responsible? We now have the Meridian Energy share deal, which is, you know, you get a free lot of shares. It is \u201CBuy now, pay later. Next stop, a set of steak knives.\u201D\u2014whatever it takes to get it off the deck. Is that fiscally responsible? Is it fiscally responsible to have hundreds of millions of dollars flowing into the pockets of those who live in New York and London and Tokyo and Zurich and other places, rather than it being ploughed into the infrastructure that those members say\u2014and we agree with them\u2014this country so desperately needs in respect of hospitals and schools and roadways and transportation and all those good things. Is that fiscally responsible? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMaybe they should actually take this bill away and rewrite it, because they talk a lot. Mr Goldsmith got found out, of course, by Mr Parker over superannuation. He is a lion in this Chamber\u2014a lion in this Chamber\u2014when saying that nothing needs to be done in terms of securing superannuation for future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cefb40d7f8d54f368ad751419d5cf959\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Put him up in front of an audience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293d4f9a4cfd941369f6b64bdaf4da528\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: How do you secure it? You have got to reform it. You have got to make it sustainable. But, oh, put him up, as my colleague Maryan Street says, before an audience. Oh, what does he say? \u201CYes, there will have to be reform, but that is for another Government\u2014that is for another Government and another time.\u201D He says \u201Canother Government\u201D, so what he is really saying, and what Mr Hayes, of course, signed up to, is that those members know it has to be done. They know that their grandkids and their great-grandkids deserve\u2014here Mr Goldsmith is now\u2014superannuation and should be entitled to and should get New Zealand superannuation. I do not buy the argument that many of my generation had, which is that nothing will be left for us because, you know, it is just the way it is. No, there should be superannuation for my generation and for generations beyond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E The way you secure that is to tell people the truth, to bite the bullet, and to put in the transitional provisions for people like the building site person whose knees have gone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976c3b8e53fa4a5abb6512bb54e44742\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Who you gonna vote for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254364fc8737344df9c15fed157d9350c\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Mr Hayes\u2019 knees have gone for other reasons, but we will not go there\u2014so that they can actually progress and perhaps retire a little early because the body\u2019s given up. The way to actually secure that is to be truthful with people and say that people of my age\u201443\u2014may have to work a bit longer, and we will, to provide for others. Mr Goldsmith is a lion in this Chamber, but he says that it will be up to a future Government. It will be up to a future Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat that tells us is that this bill is simply political propaganda. This is just designed to tell people whatever they want to hear, and when these guys slither out of this place in the next election\u2014slither over to this side of the House\u2014then it will be up to, as it always is, a Labour Government to fix it, to be fiscally responsible, as we were with the Cullen fund, and to be fiscally responsible, as we did with KiwiSaver. All of which National railed against. It said it was communism, it said it would repeal it, and what has it done? Nothing. We hear record profitability for the Cullen fund today\u2014and it should be officially named that, I reckon. That is called fiscal responsibility. That is called not just talking about providing for future generations and assessing the impact of Government policy in line with its impact on future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe do not need a guidebook\u2014a level 101 book for dummies on how to be responsible. We do not need that, because we did it. We did not need anybody to tell us. We set up superannuation mechanisms\u2014KiwiSaver, the Cullen fund\u2014because we knew that they would have a positive effect on future generations. [Interruption] The man from Waikato is opposed to it. The man from Waikato, I believe, in one of his election campaigns went around and campaigned against it. I bet he would not do that next time. I bet he would not go on the stump in the Waikato and say: \u201CI\u2019m going to repeal the Cullen fund and I\u2019m going to ditch KiwiSaver.\u201D Oh, he will not say that this time, because he knows that people understand it. That is called fiscal responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe do not need half a dozen pages of drivel. The best argument the Government can come up with is that the Labour Party not supporting a bill, because it is piffle, means we do not believe in it. Well, we do not need somebody to write down that you have got to look after future generations. We do not need a clause in this bill that says you must formulate revenue strategy having regard to efficiency and fairness, including the predictability and stability of tax rates. We did not set up a tax regime where the top 10 percent got 40 percent, and the bottom 20 percent got 2 percent. We did not do that. We did not need anybody to define for us, to tell us, to give us a definition for, what was fairness. We knew because, unlike them, it is in our DNA. It is what we were brought up with. It is our value base. It is in our DNA. I do not know what is in Mr Goldsmith\u2019s DNA\u2014I hate to think\u2014but we do not need a guidebook. This bill is a political pamphlet, it is piffle, and it is a waste of taxpayers\u2019 money. It is irresponsible that we are spending taxpayers\u2019 money and time on debating this tripe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002234409c505ca94e1eabd40ce0fc905d0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234409c505ca94e1eabd40ce0fc905d0e\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak on the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill in its third reading. The Green Party supports this legislation. It is essentially a good bill. What I think is quite interesting about this bill is that the Government is essentially hoist on its own petard, because when you look at the principles that the Government wants to introduce into the Public Finance Act, those principles are completely at odds with the Government\u2019s own fiscal strategy. Let me give a few examples. The Government wants to introduce a new paragraph into the principles of responsible fiscal management in section 26G of the Public Finance Act, in clause 4: \u201Cwhen formulating revenue strategy, having regard to efficiency and fairness,\u201D. I think that this is a very sensible introduction of a principle into the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EHowever, what you have to ask yourself is how on earth it can be fair that the Government, as part of this cycle, after 2008, gave away very large tax cuts to the wealthiest 10 percent of New Zealanders. How can it possibly be a fair revenue strategy to introduce, as this bill rightly does, the principle of fairness when putting together revenue strategy, to give the wealthiest people in New Zealand very large tax cuts while increasing GST, of course, for those who are on lower incomes? When you look at the impact of the Government\u2019s tax cuts, it is the wealthy who did extremely well out of those tax cuts, and the poor who got very little indeed from those tax cuts. How could that be considered introducing an element of fairness into the tax system? It seems to me that this is a good principle, but where is the fairness in the Government\u2019s own revenue strategy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ETo consider another issue, what about a capital gains tax? We know that New Zealand is one of the very few OECD countries, if not the only OECD country, not to have a capital gains tax, and the Greens have supported for many years a capital gains tax excluding the family home. The reason why this is an issue of fairness is that the very wealthy get most of their income from capital gains. So when you look at where people get their income from, you will find that most people get their income from wages and salaries, and they pay taxes on those. That is what the PAYE system is\u2014pay as you earn. You pay taxes in income taxes on your salary. If you get income from capital gains\u2014so if you own large numbers of shares, those shares are worth more this year than they were last year, and, let us say, you sell those shares and you make a big capital gain when you sell those shares\u2014you do not pay tax on those capital gains. That is tax-free income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhy is it that we have a tax system whereby the primary kinds of income for the very wealthy\u2014which is capital gains, because they do not get most of their income from wages\u2014pay no tax? Why is it that those on that kind of income pay no tax, whereas it is ordinary working people who have to pay the bulk of the tax, which they pay through their wages and PAYE taxes? It seems to me that if you were to develop a tax system based on this principle of fairness that the Government wants to introduce in this bill and which I think is very sensible, surely a fair tax system would also tax capital gains, so that the very wealthy, who make most of their income from capital gains, would, in fairness, pay tax on those gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere is another principle that the Government is proposing to introduce here, which I think is a very good principle: \u201Cwhen formulating fiscal strategy, having regard to its likely impact on present and future generations;\u201D. I think it is really important that we have a long-term horizon when developing fiscal strategy. In this respect, I think we need to ask ourselves the question of why New Zealand does not have a proper carbon tax or a proper price on carbon. We have the joke of the emissions trading scheme, which is just the pretence, a fig leaf, of some kind of price on carbon and which has very little effect whatsoever on a real price on carbon. But if we had a proper price on carbon, whether through a carbon tax or an effective emissions trading scheme, then that would be good for future generations. Very shortly I will be attending an event put on out the front by Generation Zero that is exactly about the issue of climate change. Climate change, of all issues, you would have to say, is going to have a massive effect on future generations. Human-caused climate change is accelerating, and, of course, New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse emissions are at an all-time high, and this Government has removed most methods to control it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOne method to control it is to put a proper price on carbon, so that those who are emitting carbon would need to take into account the fact that they have to pay a price on it. For example, right now Fonterra is talking about digging a new coalmine in the Waikato, in order to use the coal in its production. It could equally replace that coal with, say, woodchips or alternative methods that have lower greenhouse emissions or carbon emissions, but it is choosing not to do that, because there is no price on carbon. It has no economic incentive to look at the alternatives to digging a dirty great coalmine as part of our clean, green image\u2014not. If, under this principle that the Government is introducing, we considered the impact of fiscal strategy on present and future generations, then it seems to me a compelling reason to introduce a price on carbon, so that future generations will not face the kinds of problems that they are very likely to face as a result of climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ELet us remember that New Zealand is a very small emitter by global standards, so we are entirely dependent on the rest of the world saving our bacon on climate change. New Zealand is entirely dependent on the big emitters making cuts, but we cannot ask the big emitters to save us if we ourselves are not willing to take any action on climate change. We cannot protect future generations, as this clause within the bill proposes, if New Zealand itself does not take action on climate change. We cannot ask the big emitters, the big polluters, to save us, which is essentially what has to happen with climate change, if we ourselves are not willing to take any action on it. So I think this is a very good clause to introduce within the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOne could likewise make the same argument about the tax cuts that put a huge hole in the Government\u2019s fiscal position and, of course, became the justification for asset sales for the Government\u2014that is, it cut taxes for the wealthy and then it said: \u201COh dear! There\u2019s a big hole in the Budget. We\u2019re going to have to sell assets in order to pay for schools.\u201D But more of that later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E The other issue, of course, that the Labour Party has drawn attention to is in clause 4, amending section 26G(1), and the introduction of new paragraph (f): \u201Cwhen formulating fiscal strategy, having regard to the interaction between fiscal policy and monetary policy;\u201D. I would have to say that I do not share the concerns that the Labour Party has raised in this respect. I think that the new paragraph is fine, and I really do think that Labour has got that wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere is another part of this bill that I think is really good, which is the introduction of the investment statement. This, of course, has been a useful innovation, and it is important to understand how this would work. For example, under the investment statement clauses, basically, the Government is required to present an investment statement, which would look at the value of the Crown\u2019s assets and liabilities, to the House of Representatives. Let us look, for example, at the issue of asset sales within the context of the investment statement. The Government has just gone through with the Mighty River Power privatisation or partial privatisation, and we got the annual results for 2012-13 from Mighty River Power within just the last couple of hours. What they show is that total shareholder return for Mighty River Power was 11 percent over the financial year 2012-13. Total shareholder return includes both the increase in the value of the equity and the dividends paid out. That was an 11 percent return from Mighty River Power. The cost of borrowing to the Crown over the same period was 2.9 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ELet us remember that the Government told us that we had to go down the privatisation path to avoid debt. It had all sorts of nefarious reasons that did not really make any coherent sense, but let us consider that particular argument. In order to avoid debt of 3 percent, the Government sold shares in an asset that was returning 11 percent. I mean, think about the business case. Here you are, you have got this asset that is earning 11 percent, and you say: \u201CWell, I want to sell this asset earning 11 percent in order to avoid debt that would cost me 3 percent.\u201D What kind of business manager would come to you with a proposal like that? It is the kind of business manager whom you would immediately sack. It is the kind of business manager who should not be in the practice of providing advice around business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, Treasury documents and the Budget Policy Statement outlined exactly this case where they said that asset sales would increase the operating deficit because you would be selling assets with very good rates of return in order to avoid debt that has got pretty low cost. In this case, we know now, because we have got the actual numbers and we can quantify it, that basically the sale of 49 percent of Mighty River Power is costing the taxpayer $2.3 million a week. That is the difference between what we could have returned on that asset, the 11 percent, as it has told us just today, versus the 3 percent cost of debt. So because we privatised 49 percent of Mighty River Power\u2014or, rather, the National Government did\u2014it means that the Government\u2019s position, which would come up under the investment statement, is $2.3 million a week worse off. That is why I think it will be very useful to have this investment statement, and that is why we support this bill, in order to make it clear what a terrible economic manager National really is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022513f7025b89a488fbcdc5065946c65d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022513f7025b89a488fbcdc5065946c65d4\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise with pleasure to speak to the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. As the Minister of Finance reminded us at the beginning of this reading, the structure of the legislation that we are amending does need amendments. It is all about improving the Public Finance Act 1989, which is a piece of legislation that for many years has served us well, as successive Governments and as New Zealand taxpayers. What this bill does is make the public reporting and transparency provisions of that Act stronger than they have been. We need to keep the focus on maintaining low Crown debt levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThese amendments, as Minister English said at the outset, will add a new tool to the tool box to help Governments manage finances more responsibly. What is the problem with that? The Greens say that they support it, but they are doing a dollar each way because they are also criticising us unfairly on a number of other levels, as is their wont\u2014nothing new there. But the principles of this amendment are absolutely sound\u2014the third principle, in particular. We will have regular, independent updates from Treasury; a pre-election update, so that the public know what they are voting for and so they know where we are at; and a statement every 4 years because, unlike the people on the opposing side, we recognise that things change. We need to be up to date and we need to constantly reflect on our performance, measure it, and ensure, for the sake of the taxpayers and the voters as well as ourselves, that there is a clear pathway and that we understand what is going on, despite the sorts of changes that might occur to derail the best intentions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot of stuff and nonsense and some thundering from the Labour Opposition benches about how this bill is absolutely not needed. To me that speaks volumes about where those members are coming from and their inclination to resist scrutiny. \u201CTrust us.\u201D, they say. \u201CIt\u2019s in our DNA.\u201D, they say\u2014the former member for Waimakariri thundered that in his effortlessly unpleasant way. These are not things that we believe, because we do not believe those members. We do not trust them, and neither do the public of New Zealand, which is why those members polled so badly in the last election and continue to poll badly. No matter who leads them, they still remain people who are deluded into thinking that people trust them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EPhil Goff was the chief cheerleader back in the 1980s when they introduced GST. Let us look at the track record of these people, because basically what they did was that they campaigned on one thing and they transformed all of that. They changed it. They flip-flopped. They told the people of New Zealand to vote in one way, and then when they got into office they went from being a socialist party to somewhere further to the right of Genghis Khan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8cac6b8dd964ccab183de2680de0696\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: We did what Muldoon never had the guts to do, and you know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265f0e05318734810b38c1797331b2193\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Goff, who is piping up quietly, says: \u201CYeah, we learnt from our mistakes.\u201D Well, actually, they never have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThere is that delusion and, I guess, that culture and mind-set that they know best\u2014nanny State. Remember the shower heads? Remember the lights that we were told we needed because that Government knew best? We were told to trust them because they knew what they were doing. Well, actually, the people of New Zealand are not fooled by that nonsense. A piece of legislation like this brings Governments into line and makes sure that they are held accountable and are transparent. That is why Labour members are not supporting it, because something of that kind really is anathema to their culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ESo, from my point of view, when I look at this legislation I see that it provides things that are absolutely necessary. The fiscal strategy report is basically a report card for taxpayers. It will include an assessment of the extent to which the fiscal performance of the Government is consistent with its own published fiscal strategy. What on earth is wrong with that? Taxpayers want to accurately measure what is going on with Government expenditure. They have the right to know, and it is a mystery to me\u2014although having said what I said about my knowledge of Labour going back to the mid-1980s, I am not surprised at those members\u2019 duplicity. They even manage to fool themselves that they think they know what they are doing and that they are able to be trusted when, firmly, they are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EThe public want to know what is going on. They need that transparency and they deserve it, and that is what this bill does. Fiscal responsibility means managing the Crown\u2019s finances prudently, and it also means making sure that New Zealand\u2019s fiscal institutions and practices remain fit for purpose. That is what this bill is all about, and that is why I support it unreservedly and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d728cc6b9ac24d33a06cea48ccfa3615\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d728cc6b9ac24d33a06cea48ccfa3615\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First. Perhaps this Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill would have been better to be called the \u201CPublic Finance (Bleeding Obvious Fiscal Responsibility) Bill\u201D\u2014the \u201CPublic Finance (Bleeding Obvious Fiscal Responsibility) Bill\u201D. At the end of the day, what this bill is doing\u2014and I have looked back through the previous two readings of this bill\u2014is basically just putting into words what should already be happening with this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn particular, the bill sets out three new principles of responsible fiscal management. It says that the Government should \u201Cformulate fiscal strategy with regard to its interaction with monetary policy.\u201D Well, surely this is the case anyway. All this is doing is confirming what should already be in place. The second part of the bill says that Governments should ensure that \u201Cresources are managed effectively and efficiently.\u201D Well, if the Government is not managing our economy and the Government books effectively and efficiently, it is not doing its job. So, basically, again this is only putting into words, into the Public Finance Act, something that should already be taking place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe third part of the bill says that the Government should \u201Cformulate fiscal policy with regard to its likely impact on present and future generations.\u201D Well, again, certainly you would expect that any Government of New Zealand, whether it be a National Government or a Labour Government or any other form of Government, would always be looking at the impact on present and future generations. If they are not doing so, if they are thinking only of the short term, the myopic, what is happening right now, looking only at what is happening in terms of the polls, looking only at what is happening in terms of their voter response, then certainly that is not how this country should be run. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn that regard, again, it is a little bit of a nonsense that we are having to put this legislation through for what is, as again I say, the bleeding obvious. New Zealand First pointed out in the first reading that we thought this was a bit of an irrelevance, that there were 64 other bills on the Order Paper, and that other bills had a far higher priority to get on with the business of the Government and of this Parliament. At the time, we said we were opposing the bill because we thought it was simply a waste of time. We will now support the bill, but when we say that we now support it, we support it on the basis that it can do no harm. It can only improve things, surely. It can only improve what should hopefully already be happening in the Government. We would hope that as a result of just these extra words amending the Public Finance Act, things would be done to an even better standard than should already be happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut in regard to this, perhaps the bill needs to be thought about in a much wider context. Previous speakers have referred to other initiatives that the Government should be looking at. If it is looking at the third purpose of this bill, which is that the Government should \u201Cformulate fiscal strategy with regard to its likely impact on present and future generations\u201D, then maybe superannuation should be one that it should really, really be looking at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAt the present time this Government and many other parties are putting their heads in the sand in relation to superannuation. New Zealand First has come out with a scheme in the last 6 months. It is a pro rata scheme that would see people receive superannuation at 65 years of age, but on the basis of how much they contributed over their working lives in New Zealand in the 45 years between the ages of 20 and 65, how long they were here, how long they worked for, and how long they contributed to this great country of ours, New Zealand. If they had been here through that whole period, they would be entitled to 100 percent of their superannuation. However, if they had spent a considerable amount of time overseas, it would be a pro rata amount that they would then receive on retirement in New Zealand, but in doing so, they could bring retirement funds from offshore, from wherever they may have been working or living, to help support them here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt means that New Zealanders who have worked all their lives in New Zealand and have contributed here, whether it be working for money, working for their families, working in volunteer situations, or whatever they have done in New Zealand, get the full payout at 65 and are not subsidising those who just jump on the boat later in life, come to New Zealand, and then get the full payout as a result of hard-working New Zealanders having contributed to the scheme all their working lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThese are the sorts of things that any Government, if it was looking at the Public Finance Act and looking to formulate fiscal policy with regard to the likely impact on present and future generations, would be seriously looking at. We certainly hope that that third purpose does see the light of day and that Governments do look along these lines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESimilarly, my Affordable Healthcare Bill says that seniors with SuperGold cards who are 65 and over should receive a discount and should receive a rebate if they continue private health insurance after they retire, to assist them to retain their health insurance. Again, that would mean that far fewer of our seniors would drop their health insurance, drop out of the private health system, and suddenly go into full 100 percent dependence on the public health system, which would then load up our public health system to a higher level. With an ageing population we need to be looking at this far more. We need to be working out how we can keep people who may have had private health insurance on those private health insurance schemes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESimilarly, my Affordable Healthcare Bill talks about taking fringe benefit tax off companies\u2019 contributions to health insurance. Why should companies have to pay fringe benefit tax to help provide for health insurance, which reduces the impact and the burden on the public health system? Again, we should be looking at all these wider-picture ideas as to how we can help the New Zealand economy, how we can be more fiscally responsible, and how we can make the New Zealand taxpayer\u2019s dollar go further on behalf of the 4.5 million people who live here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will support this basically administrative bill\u2014it is very much a technical bill\u2014but we would say again to the Government that, again, this is tinkering around the edges. This is taking the deckchairs on the Titanic and just shuffling them around so that the window dressing looks a bit better, but at the end of the day this bill does not do a huge amount. Get down to basics. Get down to finding ways to create more employment and regional economic development, improving the opportunities for our young in this country, and helping New Zealand grow this country, not just tinker around the edges with minor little administrative bills such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002219d5e7639bd24029953c341f3afb5b06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219d5e7639bd24029953c341f3afb5b06\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very brief call in support of the third reading of the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. This bill is a sensible, responsible bill. It is about strengthening our fiscal responsibility. To say that strengthening our fiscal responsibility is irresponsible is just pure nonsense and political posturing. This bill is about more transparency. It is about ensuring that the Crown\u2019s resources are managed effectively and efficiently. It proposes three new principles, which previous speakers have already alluded to. This is a good bill. It is a sensible bill. It is a responsible bill. Any opposition to it is just pure nonsense and political posturing. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022155bf7d44333430fb0526df1aaeb4eaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022155bf7d44333430fb0526df1aaeb4eaf\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E In reference to the previous speaker, Kate Wilkinson, I rise, actually, to oppose this bill, the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. The previous speaker made a number of unfounded allegations in her very short contribution, but it is fair to say added nothing of substance to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill is a bill that paints by numbers fiscal responsibility. As I said in the Committee stage of this debate, I strongly suspect that it is an attempt by Treasury to rein in the current spending pattern of the Government\u2014an attempt to pull it back from this $300 million-a-week habit of borrowing, borrowing, borrowing, with no real plan for the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOur economy is struggling. It is not working for ordinary New Zealanders. Unemployment in my home region, in Otago, is at its highest level in 22 years. Last time the numbers were this bad, Ruth Richardson was the finance Minister. I think that is a sad indictment on the current Government, which inherited zero net debt\u2014zero net debt\u2014just 5 years ago, and in the meantime has driven our economy away from the responsible path it was on. Under this Government we now have the greatest gap between rich and poor, and we have a growing Government debt. It is outrageous that the Government should suggest that this is something that is necessary for Parliament in order to direct it on the right course. It is specifically the choices of this Government that have put us in the wrong direction. This Government is the one that passed those tax cuts in 2010 that saw 40 percent of the value go to the top 10 percent of earners. This Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe4fd4a2db34b80af658e0c90d20a1d\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283efd92dcd1442cea8dca29f8c327f63\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Forty percent\u201440 percent of the value went to the top 10 percent of earners. Outrageous, that is what it is\u2014that is what it is. And the bottom 20 percent of earners got just 2 percent of the value of those tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7c809737764d86b747d7da549fd452\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465e1320bece459fa7f3b62a9368ca68\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Just 2 percent. That is an outrage. That is not responsible. In this legislation here we have reference to fairness. Well, if this bill will change the Government\u2019s attitude to these issues, that will be a wonderful day, but I very much doubt it\u2014I very much doubt it. If these are the guiding principles this Government wants to put in place, and that is what it means by them, New Zealanders will be very, very, very suspicious about what this legislation will achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis legislation also talks about the likely impact on future generations in respect of Government fiscal policy. Well, that is coming from a Government that will not address the issue of superannuation and making our superannuation a sustainable scheme. There is no issue that is more important to New Zealanders in terms of their future well-being than whether they will be able to enjoy a retirement scheme that is sustainable. This Government has put its head in the sand on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe other crazy thing that was in this bill, and I am very glad it has been taken out, was something to do with the Government\u2019s confidence and supply agreement with John Banks. This bill as it was originally drafted promised that a spending cap would be implemented. Unfortunately, no one asked the independent MP Mr Dunne what he thought of that. On this occasion he was very frank and described it as part of an unnecessary right-wing agenda and inconsistent with constitutional principles. National and ACT did not have the numbers to pass it, but that is what they actually wanted in here. They wanted a spending cap\u2014the same type of spending cap that you have seen in Colorado and California. Those examples should be instructive to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIf we look across to Colorado and what happened there, we see that Douglas Bruce, who was, in fact, the prominent advocate of a spending cap there, ended up in prison for tax avoidance. That is a whole other story, but it shows you the kind of mind-set that wants to push for this kind of legislation. It is the type that is mean-spirited and does not have the wider public good in its frame, and it is all about making the numbers look good on paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn Colorado the infrastructure rotted. It is the 48th state in terms of education spending and the 44th in terms of road spending. It had previously been a proud state with good social infrastructure and good physical infrastructure, and that all deteriorated. There is a whole lot of economic literature on this bad experiment. I am very glad on this occasion that Peter Dunne stood up to the others in this corrupt\u2014well, not corrupt, Mr Assistant Speaker, that would be a step too far. I am glad he stood up to others in this regime, which has a number of unsound ideas that it is trying to bring to this Parliament. I am very glad that on this occasion Mr Dunne labelled the spending cap for what it is\u2014part of an unnecessary right-wing agenda and inconsistent with constitutional principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe provision for the spending cap was taken out of the bill, but that is what was sitting behind this in the National Government\u2019s mind. It wanted to bring in legislation that would reduce and restrict the options of future Governments. If we had such a fiscal cap in place we would not have been able to make the Canterbury earthquake response that we made as a Parliament. I ask New Zealanders to think about that. That is the kind of short-term thinking this Government wants to bring to this Parliament. It wants to restrict future Governments from dealing with crises. It wants to restrict future Governments that find themselves in a tight spot from helping out the citizens of this country. Fortunately, that part of the legislation fell over, but it speaks to the intent of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is hollow legislation. It is thin legislation. It describes motherhood and apple pie. It describes what responsible Governments have done over the ages, and we can see that New Zealand Governments have done different things. We know that the Labour Government in the 1980s brought spending under control. To some extent, the 1990s, with National, continued that pattern. The 2000s had an exemplary Government, which brought net Government debt down to zero and ran 9 years of surpluses in a row. How many surpluses has this Government generated, Mr Bennett?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff93ea72702b46b49d943ff736d84843\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206fa1aa5236f4d2dace30afeb167b752\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CHow many?\u201D, the member asks. Zero\u2014none; this Government has not generated one Government surplus in its entire time in this Parliament. Yet all we hear about from Government members is responsible financial management. This is a Government that knows how to talk responsible financial management\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f56c251b32c4e54bc55302d300f4e90\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534d01ade9f24ab288a2082ffe393783\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but does not know how to put it in place. Mr Bennett says: \u201CCome on.\u201D Well, the facts speak for themselves. The rhetoric does not stack up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is an irresponsible Government. It is passing legislation that it did not get bipartisan agreement on. It failed to consult properly with the Opposition to get to an agreed position. In this area historically there has been an agreement across the House. It has been the effort of past Governments to make sure that everyone gets to have their say, because the whole point of this sort of legislation is that you have a long-term plan for the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe think there should be a reference to adequate levels of national savings in this document. There is silence across the floor. Over there they do not believe in an adequate level of national savings, because it is not in the interests of the big end of town. That is whose interests they are looking out for. They do not address issues like a capital gains tax, which would be about a fair tax system, and about pro-growth tax reform. They do not address issues about universal KiwiSaver. They are not interested in making sure New Zealanders are well prepared for their retirement. They are more interested in driving down wages and making sure that the interests of the 1 percent are looked after. They do not address monetary policy issues. They are still committed to the hands-off policies of the 1980s. They do not want to update fiscal policy. They do not want to update financial policies. They are a hands-off Government. They are not addressing the housing issue. They are not addressing the affordability of power. They are not addressing the big issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis Government has its head in the sand, and that is why we oppose this bill. It does not address the big issues. It is a lot of piffle, waffle, and empty words. It is tinkering, and it is not a bill that is worthy of this Parliament\u2019s time. Therefore, Labour will oppose this bill through the rest of its time in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002249fdf7adc4f54bcebadf427655cc5a90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249fdf7adc4f54bcebadf427655cc5a90\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thus spoke the \u201CRed Reverend\u201D from Otago. What a misleading purveyor of facts that man is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a15efe2088b4db88f246fc3799a0f12\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: What facts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d859e5123d524c4cb056b24be8786059\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he said that we have got the greatest unemployment in his electorate that this country has ever seen. Well, I would like to take issue with that, because I can refer him to the ANZ Business Outlook survey for July, which confirmed that overall business confidence has increased by 3 further points in the month, with a net 53 percent of respondents expecting better times ahead. This is the highest level of business confidence since April 1999. Then there is the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s Jobs Online report for July\u2014last month\u2014which showed that vacancies increased by 8.3 percent per month. \u201CRed Reverend\u201D, you have been telling porkies. The month of July took the annual increase to 13.2 percent. The household labour force survey shows that unemployment has fallen\u2014not increased, \u201CRed Reverend\u201D, but fallen\u2014from 6.8 percent to 6.4 percent over the past year. It also shows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222932aeb4d0024c73832d4bcea9f615b2\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not sure what my remedy is to this, but the member is quoting statistics and saying the Otago numbers have dropped, and they have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb566a8d10a6455fa50207b74383df3b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. That is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd16c565af8424fbc483a6887bb95e9\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280933f6a9f29475f96edb988fc6f0dbc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a debating point, which can come up at another time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234e6c933fa47490eb7d9d2db04c2faee\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. The \u201CRed Reverend\u201D does not like the truth, does he? Well, let us go to the household labour force survey. It shows that unemployment has fallen from 6.8 percent to 6.4 percent over the past year. I say to the people of Otago that they are being misled by their member of Parliament, the untruthful \u201CRed Reverend\u201D. It also shows that there have been 46,000 more people employed in the past 6 months. That man cannot lie straight in bed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI am also totally perplexed as to why the Labour Party will not support this Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill, which provides huge common sense and a tremendous improvement in the way that future Governments are going to have to manage this economy. Although I have heard criticism from the co-leader of the Greens this morning and also from \u201CCaptain Clich\u00E9\u201D of the New Zealand First Party, I would like to say that the National Government\u2019s responsible economic management is helping the country grow and is lifting confidence. Under this Government\u2019s strong economic management we are on track to return to surplus in 2014-15. Dr Clark said we have never run a surplus. We never claimed we could in the middle of a global recession, but we said we would be back in surplus by 2014-15, and we will, \u201CRed Reverend\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223044880c4e0248b9897dc7a668c42051\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is a Speakers\u2019 ruling, 28/1, that I would ask the member to look at. You must refer to people by their names. It has been mentioned a few times across the House. I just remind members of Speakers\u2019 ruling 28/1\u2014refer to members by their correct names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4de7990cc354fd9afd610b129a6e6ca\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. By 2014-15 New Zealand will be one of the few developed countries not increasing public debt. Our economy continues to grow: 2.4 percent in the past year, which is faster than most other developed countries and members of the OECD. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI come back to the comments made by the Green co-leader. He was talking in a very misguided and untruthful way about Mighty River Power\u2019s performance. He omitted to understand that running a surplus helps keep mortgage rates lower for longer. It gives the Government choices about how to invest your taxes. In ensures our economy is stronger and more stable in case of future economic shocks\u2014for example, if Wellington suffered a big earthquake. What I can tell this House is that Standard and Poor\u2019s has just affirmed New Zealand\u2019s AA\u002B credit rating, saying that the rating reflects the country\u2019s fiscal and monetary policy, flexibility, economic resilience, and public policy stability in the finance sector. This follows earlier comments by the IMF\u2019s managing director, Christine Lagarde, who said that the IMF is very supportive of what is being done by the Government. So if you look at the numbers, whether for growth, employment, inflation, or debt, overall they are very stable and they are also very promising. It is certainly a lot better than what we see in most other parts of the world, and it is infinitely better than the situation that would arise if those economic miscreants on the other side of the House were to take over running this country, and we cannot put this at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EHere in New Zealand we are seeing a growing mood of optimism being recorded in business sentiment surveys, retail sales data, house sales, and the ability of businesses and consumers to pay their bills on time. The most recent BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Manufacturing Index increased 4.3 percent to a seasonally adjusted 59.5 percent. I would ask the people of Otago to keep that fact in mind when they consider the comments of their member in this House this morning. It raises further questions about the Opposition\u2019s irresponsible attempts to manufacture a manufacturing crisis in this country. It simply does not exist. This is a very good piece of legislation. It helps the Government consolidate its sound management of this economy and I support it without reservation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca91272bf47649758763e992e8f8c12a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca91272bf47649758763e992e8f8c12a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7d144eeb3d74facb210f1ad918538a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7d144eeb3d74facb210f1ad918538a5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call to oppose this bill, the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. Being lectured to by the National Party about fiscal responsibility is a bit like being lectured to by, I do not know, John Hayes about probity advice or something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5243777afd4622a2b470573cc56610\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Idi Amin on democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b2f811104174885bed53ffd6f77ce12\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Idi Amin on democracy\u2014many things come to mind. In its last two Governments, Labour has never run a fiscal deficit. There were nine surpluses out of nine. How many fiscal surpluses has the National Government run? None, zero, zilch, zip, nada, never. It has never run a fiscal surplus, and it is some sort of jealousy factor that it is trying to elevate fiscal restraint as an overriding aim over all other objectives of economic policy through this legislation. I am going to briefly tell you why I think that is a very bad idea, but, firstly, the history of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill came out of the confidence and supply agreement with the ACT Party. It was the price of coalition. It was the ridiculous notion, ditched everywhere else in the world, that the best way to restrain public finance was to put on a strict cap. Of course, that stupid idea went down the river, and it was to have been replaced with a genuine process of multiparty consultation that would have led to an updating on what has hitherto been a bipartisan bill. But, unfortunately, the scrum got screwed\u2014the scrum got screwed\u2014and the draft before us is none of those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELet me just turn the attention of the House to what it actually says. This will come as a surprise to the National backbench, who, no doubt, have not read it. Firstly, it elevates monetary policy above fiscal policy. The Labour Party argued that it would be fairer to have that as a two-way street\u2014to have the Reserve Bank making monetary policy, with regard to fiscal settings, and Treasury advising on the fiscal stance, having regard to monetary policy. That is what all well-managed developed economies do, but it was not good enough for the National Government. For the Government, it is a one-way street. It is that No. 2 The Terrace\u2014the Reserve Bank\u2014and the Governor run the Government. Well, that is ridiculous. It is an outgrowth of Milton Friedman\u2019s monetarism. It has gone the way of the Ark in most places, except under John Key\u2019s National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe second point is to \u201Cformulate fiscal strategy with regard to its likely impact on present and future generations\u201D. Look, that sounds good, but you have got to be careful. It sounds good because we do want intergenerational fairness. We do not want the young people of today being screwed because of greed by the old people of tomorrow. But that is not as simple as it sounds. Is it not ironic that the National Party\u2019s leader has said that he would resign before he addressed the problem of superannuation eligibility? Before he touched that, he would resign his office. The grey-rinse brigade has nothing to worry about from John Key. Where is the fiscal responsibility in that? Just ask \u201CGabs\u201D Makhlouf, Secretary to the Treasury, who says there is a $220 billion problem by 2050. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe third point is to manage the Crown\u2019s resources \u201Ceffectively and efficiently\u201D. It sounds innocuous enough. Where is the word \u201Cfairly\u201D? Where are the words \u201Cfairly\u201D and \u201Cjustly\u201D? Where is the reference to equity? Where is the reference to closing the inequality gaps that mean a quarter of a million kids in this country are growing up without their warm bellies full and with no shoes on their feet? Where is fairness? I will tell you where it is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002271e01c2b855849508c032246c97014f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271e01c2b855849508c032246c97014f9\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak in support of this Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. Although I acknowledge that the bill had a very unfortunate political genesis, luckily the very worst aspects of that original bill, ACT\u2019s spending cap, have been dumped, and what has been left is actually a pretty good bill, requiring greater transparency from the Government. The principle that it introduces when considering a revenue strategy\u2014for example, taking into account efficiency and fairness\u2014is quite a good principle. The Green Party can support that principle. Having regard to the impact on present and future generations is extremely important, and I would say that it is very much in line with the Green Party\u2019s philosophy on economics and monetary and tax policy. However, if this bill was implemented now, it would become quite clear to everyone that what the National Government is doing is quite the opposite of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere are many examples of National policy that have reduced the efficiency and reduced the fairness of the tax system. We have growing inequality in New Zealand and that, in part, is due to the lack of a capital gains tax, which would be a very fair and efficient way to broaden our revenue base. It is also because when National came into power in 2008-09, it introduced regressive tax cuts, which gave a lot of wealth to those who already had a lot of wealth. Basically it is a wealth transfer from those who are the least well off, the most vulnerable in our society, to those who have the most. But, of course, aspects of this bill, like the investment statement, are not going to come into force until 2017, by which time, of course, this National Government will have long since moved into Opposition and will not be required to be held to account to these good principles of efficiency, fairness, transparency, and taking into account the capital position of the Government\u2014not just looking at debt and at GDP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party would say that this bill does not go far enough. A move to having a more clear investment statement that has a medium and long-term outlook is quite a good move\u2014that is in line with Green Party principles\u2014but it does not take into account the natural and social capital that is essential for the long-term prosperity of New Zealanders. So we have a challenge and we have an opportunity in the 21st century. We are coming to grips with resource depletion, climate change, and rising inequality. All of those things do not serve the greater interest of the people of New Zealand. The global financial crisis is a crisis, but it is also an opportunity to revisit some of the assumptions that have been operating since the 1980s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat the Green Party fundamentally recognises is that the economy is a subset of our society. It does not reflect all of the unpaid work that enables New Zealanders to have enough to eat and to have a high quality of life in New Zealand. The economy is just one subset of our human activities that we take part in as part of society, and society is a subset of the natural environment. We cannot have ongoing economic growth if we are drawing down non-renewable resources and increasing the carbon pollution in the atmosphere. It is simply not possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIn order to have the ability for New Zealanders to have a high quality of life well into the future, to enjoy the benefits that come with living in a place that has water that is safe for swimming and safe for drinking and that is going to be available to future generations\u2014not just the people who are currently in business today\u2014and to be able to have the benefit of a stable climate, we need to start taking all of these things into account. We need to live within our means and we need to look after the fairness and opportunities for all New Zealanders if we want to have a fair society that enables future generations in New Zealand to thrive. This bill makes some small changes that we hope will increase the efficiency, fairness, and transparency of Government revenue strategies and the Government\u2019s long-term fiscal strategy. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23fad326ae14f88a25b779bcc5cc722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23fad326ae14f88a25b779bcc5cc722\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a short call on the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill. It is very encouraging to see the Green Party supporting this bill for once, and I thank them for that and New Zealand First for its comments as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f597149511f840d7ae40896adfaff793\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Showing real leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ff2336904d4f67b4d1b689859a153a\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is really just, as Mr Tau Henare just said, an indication that the Green Party is changing tack. While Labour is trying to work out where it stands on many things, the Green Party is seeking to take back some of its ground, as it has successfully done over the last couple of years. The Labour Party has made a number of comments in regard to this bill that are just plain incorrect. It is very disappointing to see a party that had such a proud history being in such a position now of weakness, and also now having to make such silly comments in regard to a bill like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EOne of the comments that came through in its members\u2019 speeches and through their speech notes, which they obviously had to follow, was that they needed to say that there had been 9 years of surplus in a row under the previous Labour Government. Well, that may be the case, but you lived in the most economically prosperous times of that generation. You did not have to deal with rebuilding your second-biggest city. You did not have to deal with a world recession. This Government has dealt with those issues\u2014dealt with them successfully\u2014and got New Zealand back into surplus within a short period of time. I think that is something that we need to be incredibly proud of, as the National Party and the public of New Zealand are as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EOne point that Labour members did not leave you with was that the Labour Government set up the recession in New Zealand before the world went into recession. The Labour Party\u2019s policies led to New Zealand being in recession before the world went into the global recession. That is how poor an economic manager it was. That is the reality that the public needs to be aware of, not some line about 9 years of surplus in a row. The reason it put New Zealand into recession is that it is a poor economic manager that set up New Zealand with some poor economic policy. It does not want a bill like this, because New Zealand will stop having poor economic policy. [Interruption] What is that, Damien O\u2019Connor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280642df456214d37b655241f4e9852b2\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How much have you borrowed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db575d34cec244c6a8886c986ccb1901\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: How much have we borrowed? Damien O\u2019Connor does not want to see Christchurch rebuilt. Damien O\u2019Connor does not want to see people keep a standard of living through this recession. The reason that the Labour Party is against this bill is that it knows that the bill will control it doing that silly economic management that it did last time, when it put New Zealand into a recession before the rest of the world. Bills like this are here to stop the kind of silly economic activity that you saw from the Labour Party last time it was in power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d50c0458ca4f59bc89e399c60ee3ec\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Irresponsible managers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9c97f6df174bf38e60abdb8bbc2619\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Irresponsible managers\u2014that is what Labour members are. You are right, Damien O\u2019Connor. Labour members are irresponsible managers. They cannot even manage themselves. They will never manage the New Zealand economy properly. This bill is good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222b72bb913dee4cc19ba7bc085177778c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Public Finance (Fiscal Responsibility) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002273b71a3403e149a290c8197d4c5f4273\u0022\u003EPatents Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002243fd6215b0464c8eb30d02e18e559f4d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fba6d1d1df1c4c7cb4560a514fb49463\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f48926bdda92480291d7d042f56376f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f48926bdda92480291d7d042f56376f0\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E There is a real story to tell about this bill, the Patents Bill. It is a story about patience and tenacity. The tenacity is particularly the tenacity of a growing economic force in New Zealand, which I would like to call the vanguard of the new economy. This force is the software developers, who could also be described as our new frontiers people, the forgers and the creators of our new economy. It is a story of progressive law, and we have actually got there. This might seem like an unusual thing for a member of the Labour Opposition to say, but this is a progressive law. We have finally got there. It has taken 3\u00BD years to get here, but it does appear that we are here today discussing in the Committee stage the patents law and the revision of the Patents Act 1953. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhen the Commerce Committee reported back to the House on the Patents Bill on 30 March 2010, it was the product then of parliamentary work at its best\u2014the repeal of an Act that was clearly out of date. That was the Patents Act 1953, which was modelled on a United Kingdom Act from 1949. It certainly did need revamping. It was very out of date. The revamped Act proposed a regime to align the criteria for granting a patent with international practice. It aimed to promote innovation and economic growth, while also providing a balance between the interests of inventors and patent owners, and also society as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe new bill that was sent back to the House was a major accomplishment. It was seen as a major accomplishment then. At the heart of that bill and the changes to it was a commitment to provide a real incentive to help grow the New Zealand economy through its software industry and through its weightless economy. An awful lot of work went into that debate at the Commerce Committee, and I do want to pay respect and tribute to the officials who did that work back at that time, and also to the chair of the select committee at that time, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, who chaired a united committee that only a few of the original members are still on. But it was a united committee on this particular bill. That select committee did a very good job of working through all the issues and sending those issues back to the officials to go away and do more work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhat that bill sought to address was that New Zealand\u2019s existing patent law was too generous to the people seeking patents and that there were too many corporations getting monopoly rights, and many of those corporations were multinationals that could get patent rights to inventions inside New Zealand that would not be protected overseas. That discouraged innovation and growth, the committee felt, which was the last thing that we wanted to do as a nation. In relation to software, that meant having more software companies being taken to court and tied up for years to stop those companies from inventing new software because of the threat of patent lawsuits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhen that bill came back to the House in 2010, the Commerce Committee proposed something groundbreaking and innovative. The select committee proposed, after hearing much evidence and discussing it in depth with officials, to exclude software as being patentable. It was one of a number of exclusions that were proposed. Those exclusions included methods of medical treatment of humans, human beings and biological processes for the generation of human beings, plant varieties, inventions whose commercial exploitation would be contrary to morality or public policy, and computer programs. This was historic. This was the first time in the world\u2014that we knew of\u2014that a piece of law included such a proposal. It was seen as being groundbreaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe reason for this was that the existing regime allowed patents for anything that met the relevant criteria, whether or not they were implemented in software. When you think about it, I suppose in 1953 this was not an issue, so the bill simply was out of date. I think everybody acknowledged that. But when software applications first arose, the Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand and the courts had no legislative guidance. Early applications were knocked back, but were faced with no provision saying that they should not be granted. Software patents were generally available in New Zealand from the mid-1990s, but they were starting to get to a point where they were exploding. There was a view put very strongly to that select committee that the trickle of software patents worldwide had turned into a flood, and so it was decided that our patent law would come into the 21st century and that software patents would be on the agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI do want to take you through the history of this, and if it takes a little while, then so be it, because it is such an important new groundbreaking piece of law. There were four options that New Zealand could have chosen from when we were considering this. The first was to allow patents on anything under the sun, which really was to use a description of the US regime and allow software patents without any particular restrictions\u2014in other words, the status quo. This option was rejected. It was ruled out by the Commerce Committee because we accepted that software patents were becoming increasingly problematic. That view has been borne out in the United States in recent years, with software patents coming under fierce criticism. I spent a month in the US last year. This issue is being hotly debated in the US right now, even though the regime does still favour software patents. It has even been acknowledged by President Obama and in studies highlighting the economic and innovative harm that software patents are causing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe second option was to implement a partial or a weak exclusion of software patents, as the European Union has done. It has been contended that it is unlikely that this is what the European Union actually intended, but this is what it has ended up with as a result of the now infamous \u201Cas such\u201D provision, which has received a lot of coverage in New Zealand. It is one little phrase that has received a lot of debate as to what it actually means. It is a term that is vague and has effectively negated the software patent exclusion in the European Union and led to much confusion and criticism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe third option was to implement a broad, strong exclusion of software patents, such as in the UK. The UK also uses the \u201Cas such\u201D language, but judges have taken a much more robust approach than their counterparts in the European Union, and in 2006 they developed a legal test that specifically evaluated patents involving software. That was known as the Aerotel test. The result of that was that the UK now has tougher criteria for software patents, rather than the European Union countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe fourth option, which was what the Commerce Committee actually decided back in 2010, was to chart our own course, take a new way forward, and clearly exclude software patents. This was the preferred option of many of the submitters who appeared before the select committee, particularly New Zealand\u2019s Kiwi innovators. But there was a lot of concern around whether this would give rise to international trade obligations, and also about whether there should be a definition in the bill around what embedded software is\u2014for example, where you have an invention, such as a Fisher and Paykel washing machine, and within that you have a piece of software, where does the beginning and the end of the software happen? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBut it was considered by the select committee that it was simpler to exclude software from being patentable altogether, and we asked that the Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand would be writing the guidelines as to the embedded software. This came back to the House. The Minister at the time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u002283a7a1c678714c829bf9d6f4be99f4f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283a7a1c678714c829bf9d6f4be99f4f9\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to take only a very brief call on behalf of New Zealand First as far as Part 1 of the Patents Bill is concerned. The Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 will be supported by New Zealand First. Those amendments are, with the support of the amendments to Supplementary Order Paper 120 on Supplementary Order Paper 237, consistent with the bill as a whole, and we think they add value\u2014mainly in respect of technical aspects, but also they clarify some important sections in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EConcerning new clause 10A(1) and (2), New Zealand First supports Supplementary Order Paper 237 to add a new clause 10A(3). Clause 10A(2) is unclear without new subclause (3), which says: \u201CA claim in a patent or an application relates to a computer program as such if the actual contribution made by the alleged invention lies solely in it being a computer program.\u201D We think that this now makes sense of the words \u201Cas such\u201D as they were used in subclause (2). The clause, we feel, had been a cause of considerable complaint as the bill had been introduced, because of the uncertainty around what it had meant. But we now feel that the amendment, to add new clause 10A(3), solves the problems with the clause. Accordingly, we will support the bill on the basis that it is amended in that way, and New Zealand First will not, accordingly, be supporting Clare Curran\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 123.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00227fe18562dd744d45862cadd88379006d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fe18562dd744d45862cadd88379006d\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E Can I acknowledge the previous speakers and also the work they have done to get us to where we are today, and the speakers who I think are going to follow me, particularly Clare Curran. The Labour Party has been quite reasonable in our discussions in and around what have been some contentious issues in this bill, the Patents Bill. I also acknowledge the support of New Zealand First, which initially showed reservations concerning my Supplementary Order Papers but is now supportive, as per the member Denis O\u2019Rourke\u2019s speech. So thank you very much. I also understand where other parties\u2014but I will let them talk about it\u2014are supportive of the bill, which starts to be a bit of a worry sometimes, with everyone supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIt has been a journey. Most of the issues around Part 1 and Part 2, new clause 10A, and what was in clause 15, which other members have talked about, concern the part around computer programs, so I will just touch on that. It has been a journey. I think we now have legislation in front of us that achieves the intent of the Commerce Committee. I do acknowledge that the select committee, when it was going through these very same issues, wrestled with all sorts of scenarios and came to a reasonable space, although when I inherited the bill and looked at the bill\u2014and I will touch on this again in a moment\u2014I was concerned about what was in the commentary versus what was actually proposed as part of the statute. We have got to the point now where the examples that the previous speaker Clare Curran talked about and that are in the commentary\u2014for example, the washing machine, as far as embedded software is concerned\u2014are now codified in the bill as an example, as a pointer, to what could or could not be allocated or allowed and given patentability. I think we have done a pretty good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOn that note, I do want to thank the many, many people who have been involved with this bill since its gestation in 2008, I think. I think we have had three Ministers involved\u2014the Hon Lianne Dalziel, the Hon Simon Power, and now me. We have had the select committee, some members of which are still with us and still on that committee in Parliament. I must fully acknowledge the officials who have been working with this bill for quite some time, who have been very, very keen to see it progress. I fully acknowledge that some of them took a bit of the heat during some of the parliamentary debates through the time, but I also acknowledge that those same officials have helped to get us to where we are today. It is a great example, I think, of the parliamentary process working in action and of joint ownership of this quite significant legislation, which modernises 50-year-old patent law in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge my colleague from the ACT Party, John Banks. I particularly want to acknowledge the Hon Peter Dunne of United Future, who did play quite a role in the communications with various sector leaders, information and communications technology players, industry people, and interested bodies, again to get us to the point where we are now. As I said, I acknowledge New Zealand First and Labour, and I believe that the Greens are now supportive of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI have to thank the many innovative New Zealand businesses and stakeholders that have given feedback on this Patents Bill for their engagement to getting us to this point and helping us pass it. This Patents Bill guarantees that genuine inventions are protected and that Kiwi businesses can continue to grow and prosper. I am proud of where we have got to and the process of this bill over the last year. I am very proud to have a major stake in that, to where we have arrived. I fully acknowledge that there have been some bumps along the way of that journey. But, again, professionals who have looked for solutions have helped us to get to where we are. When I became Minister of Commerce I took on a bit of a mission to have a look at this bill and understand what was holding it up and what the issue was, and there really was only one key issue: the discussion around the patentability or otherwise of computer programs. So we spent a fair bit of time on that\u2014again, a good journey perhaps takes a long time\u2014but, as I say, we are there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMy Supplementary Order Paper 120 to try to tidy that up last year did create a bit of concern, to be fair. That is absolutely fine, but, interestingly, we have gone from a period where there was major concern in the information and communications technology sector about my particular Supplementary Order Paper to where we are now, and the entire sector actually cannot wait for the bill to be passed in its new form. So I appreciate all of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe concern was about that Supplementary Order Paper. Opposition did intensify around that time around what was believed to be my not following the intent of the committee. I can assure the Committee that at all times\u2014and it is reflected in my correspondence with different professionals and people in the sector\u2014the intent was always to follow what the committee pointed to. But I realised there was a problem in the bill in that form where, in fact, New Zealand could have been exposed to World Trade Organization action. Of course, none of us wanted that. But I was surprised at the time because my intent was to follow through as earlier indicated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill has been strengthened as reported back initially. There is just one person I want to quickly acknowledge. I will not mention the person, but when concerns, organised protests, campaigns, emails, and tweets and things were really going, I had a chat to a person who is in the information and communications technology sector. At that moment, everyone seemed to actually start to engage a wee bit more. When I told the person that we had about 250 software patents in New Zealand over the last couple of years, I listed some of the programs around at that moment that are well known that are patented in New Zealand and not elsewhere, and I pointed to my willingness in wanting to follow the UK process and where it is at, as opposed to the euro area and where it is at. That was a pivotal point. Everyone started to engage a bit more and a bit better, again leading us to where we are now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI fully acknowledge the key issues. My Supplementary Order Paper, the new clause 10A, and the previous clause 15\u2014that is where the contentious issues are. I think we are now over those. Again, let me acknowledge and thank all those who helped us to get to this point and for their support of the bill, I believe, at the coming stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022036a009625194f7abbbdb32a4174413e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022036a009625194f7abbbdb32a4174413e\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will be supporting this Patents Bill, and I thank the Minister of Commerce for his contribution. There have been many Ministers who have contributed to this over the years. I think I am right in saying that its introduction dates back to the time of the Hon Judith Tizard in this House. It has been around a wee while. The bill has made steady progress and now we are here, debating the final form but with more Supplementary Order Papers on the way. So it is a journey\u2014it is indeed a journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe support the bill because when we look at the purposes, at its most fundamental, Part 1 covers the purposes of this bill, it says that \u201CThe purposes of this Act are to\u2014(aa) provide an efficient and effective patent system that\u2014(i) promotes innovation and economic growth while providing an appropriate balance between the interests of inventors and patent owners and the interests of society as a whole;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo often when we debate these intellectual property issues we come back to the question about how the interests of society as a whole are protected. The debates around software patenting and innovation in that sphere often revolve around whether the interests of society as a whole are served by protecting inventors to an extent that may be beyond what is necessary to encourage innovation in that sector. There are plenty of people who say that innovation is rife in many sectors and that very little patenting or intellectual property protection is required. In other sectors, when we think it through, pharmaceuticals require a huge amount of investment when it comes to intellectual property. The billions of dollars that go into drugs that are of benefit to society as a whole simply would not be invested without the appropriate protections in place. That is why this kind of intellectual property law needs to find the right balance between the interests of the inventors, what the incentives need to be to ensure that they do invest in stuff that is good for society as a whole, and the benefit that accrues to society, and whether it would be more or less, depending on the incentives that are put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe could question some of things that are being debated in the leaked Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, in the negotiations, and the issue always comes back to whether the interests of society as a whole are being served by the changes that are proposed. The one that is in the public domain most often is the extension of Disneyland\u2019s intellectual property protections and whether that is actually of use to society as a whole, given that no new creative content is likely to arise from historic material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill itself\u2014[Interruption] My colleague Clare Curran says\u2014I do not know whether I heard her correctly\u2014that that is a Mickey Mouse proposition, but, if not, I am extrapolating, and there may be some truth in that. Of course, we do not know what the final shape of those arrangements will be, and we are not privy to the negotiations. That is, of course, something New Zealanders are concerned about because we all want not only the interests of society as a whole but our national interests to be taken care of. Mr Lotu-Iiga, I am sure, would agree with me if he had the opportunity to speak on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EPart 1 covers those purposes, the preliminary purposes that I mentioned, striking that balance. It also mentions there, in the opening gambit, New Zealand\u2019s international obligations, and the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights springs to mind for me. Those agreements are, in terms of the World Trade Organization expectations, what serve to make sure that international trade is looked out for, and that we all as countries are encouraged to create new intellectual property\u2014and that is good for society as a whole\u2014broader than just national boundaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThese purposes in the bill look at the criteria for granting a patent, they provide for procedures that allow the validity of a patent to be tested, and they provide certainty for those patent owners and users of patent interventions. They address some M\u0101ori concerns relating to the granting of patents for inventions derived from indigenous plants. Of course, Wai 262 is something that many members of this Committee will be familiar with from the debates over the years. It is something that is not finally settled, and is something that I personally believe needs the attention of the Government. The failure of this Government to progress that matter fully is also a concern, and it should be a concern for this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWhen we look further into Part 1 we see that it covers the meaning of \u201Cnovel\u201D, which of course is a simple and basic requirement of outlining what a patent is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96ea7b327c848a6bb2afa9ab89ae36b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a book. I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249302071d4fc4ddf9d59de775a114ccb\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Mr Mallard says he has read the book on what novel is about. It is the meaning of an inventive step, so what it actually means to invent something new, because, of course, if that is not defined correctly, we can have people who are trying to claim that they have rights to something that, again, does not benefit society as a whole, if it is something that already exists, if it is something from which we already derive benefit, and then somebody is seeking a private rent\u2014seeking to make profit from something that does not belong to their own intellectual property contribution. That, then, is a net drain on society as a whole. So it is important that we lay out exactly what each of these things is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt also covers the meaning of \u201Cprior art base\u201D, and I would ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Commerce, to clarify that as I have not been particularly engaged in the discussion about the prior art base. I think the Committee would be interested to know exactly what that looks like in practice, and what it means in those clauses that describe the prior art base. Then, of course, there are disclosures and the meaning of \u201Cuseful\u201D, because we are talking here\u2014to come back to those first principles\u2014about what is useful for society as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAs I said from the outset, Labour will be supporting this legislation. New Zealand\u2019s existing patent law is, in our view, too generous to those people seeking patents. Too many corporations get monopoly rights, and many are multinational corporations that can get patent rights to investors inside New Zealand that would not be protected overseas. We are pleased to see that this is being upgraded. It has happened over a long period of time, being first introduced in 2008 by the Hon Judith Tizard, as I said, and it is still being debated actively today. But it is great to see the bipartisan nature of the debate here in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI will not speak for much longer. I am simply interested, though, in hearing further from the Minister about the meaning of \u201Cprior art base\u201D, so that the Committee can understand that a little better. It is also for my own ignorance on that matter that I might have it clarified by the Minister. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00225edba572ed764f1ca24ff886e5a644e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225edba572ed764f1ca24ff886e5a644e8\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. It is a privilege to rise in the Chamber and speak in the Committee stage on Part 1 of the Patents Bill. I thought I was the only one in Parliament who thought patents was an interesting, fun, and cool area to study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f5e553bd30c4855b920f313ee0f1720\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Sexy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d76bea105abb4eb298b2f3da47f36fd4\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Sexy as well, Clare Curran says. We often feel a bit lonely when we talk about patents at parties or social gatherings, but it is good to see some other people in this Parliament who also find them interesting, like Dr David Clark and Clare Curran. Obviously, I would like to acknowledge the work Clare Curran has put in over the years as part of the coalition, putting in a Supplementary Order Paper and trying to fix up some of the software patent issues. So I would like to congratulate her. I would also like to congratulate the Minister of Commerce, because when other Ministers would rush straight ahead, maybe blind to opposition or calls for common sense from industry or the public or experts, Minister Foss did listen. He did move, and I would like to acknowledge the Minister\u2019s role in shepherding this bill through and for taking a common-sense approach to patents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill is incredibly important to our economy, to our prosperity, and to how we go forward. We are a country that wants to trade on our innovation, on our ideas, and on our niches. Intellectual property issues, particularly patents, are a critical part of that. It is high time we reviewed our antiquated, Westminster-derived 1953 Patents Act. In previous readings I talked about how it was literally being laughed at by patent experts and interested parties because it was just so out of date. It was high time we revisited it. This bill represents a step forward. It is obviously not an ideal solution, but it is a step forward, and that is why the Green Party will be supporting it. Overall, it is an improvement on existing law, not a step backwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen you look at Part 1 of the Patents Bill, it contains the purposes clause\u2014the purposes around an efficient and effective patent system, around the criteria for granting patents, and providing greater certainty for patent owners and, I believe, critically, in a Treaty relationship addressing M\u0101ori concerns, which the Green Party takes incredibly seriously. This is very much a live, debatable issue. I think it goes some way, although, again, it is not an ideal solution or one truly reflecting a Treaty relationship that we should have in New Zealand, but it is a step in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI am interested because this patents issue is incredibly interesting internationally and it is stimulating a lot of discussion. I would like to quote very briefly from Nobel Prize - winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, who has written recently on the link between patents, intellectual property, and inequality. Stiglitz writes that \u201Ccorporate interests prevail in intellectual property rights,\u201D and that the policies of the American Government are increasing inequality abroad. He writes: \u201Cit\u2019s our intellectual property regime that contributes needlessly to the gravest form of inequality. The right to life should not be contingent on the ability to pay.\u201D He was talking about a very specific example where a company had basically patented genes and some breast cancer and other cancer identification genomic research, and it substantially increased the cost, driving the cost out of the reach of many people. It went through the legal system in the United States, and now, as a result of losing that court case, the cost of that genomic research has dropped substantially. People are getting the medical attention they need. It is positive and is just another example of how patents can impact inequality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the exclusions to patents, this is where I think we really are genuinely seeing a step forward in terms of this bill. The bill is going to allow exemptions to patent human beings, medical techniques, plants, and inventions contrary to public order or morality. That is very much a step in the right direction. The bill does not, however, prevent all biological patents, of course, provided that the absolute novelty and inventive step is there. This is something that my colleague Steffan Browning is addressing with his Supplementary Order Papers 124 and 336, which try to tighten up those exemptions and expand them. Obviously, the patenting of genes, indigenous knowledge, and native flora and fauna in very different countries is a very live issue internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the Treaty and M\u0101ori relationships aspect, which is looked at in clause 3 of Part 1, I believe that this is going a step in the right direction. But when you read the submissions\u2014and unfortunately I did not have the pleasure of sitting on the Commerce Committee; I think we have had about twice as many MPs work on this bill as the Government has had Ministers work on it\u2014what you see from a lot of M\u0101ori submitters and iwi organisations and the M\u0101ori Law Society is that they wanted to wait for Wai 262, the Waitangi Tribunal case, to report back. That did report back and it recommended a M\u0101ori advisory committee but with binding powers. Of course, the fear of many of those submitters is that this advisory council to the Commissioner of Patents could perhaps be perceived as tokenism, and that perhaps their voice will not be heard. Hopefully, that will not be the case, but, of course, we would have preferred that this was a binding advice provision on the Commissioner of Patents, reflecting the Wai 262 recommendation but also that Treaty relationship that I touched on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EOf course, the interesting thing, and the big victory in this bill, is the software patent exemption. As Clare Curran notes, this has quite a bit of history. It came out of the select committee with the unanimous recommendation to take this bold, innovative, supporting step. It was congratulated broadly around the world, and in New Zealand it was a positive announcement. I think everyone got incredibly disillusioned when the bill sat on the Order Paper for so many years, when people were not given the sense that it was going to be progressed. Then when the Minister came out with Supplementary Order Paper 120, which went backwards on the issue of software patents, many people were upset and disillusioned, but they also got angry and they got organised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI would like to congratulate those involved in that campaign, who did change the Minister\u2019s mind\u2014the likes of Orion Health, Catalyst IT, InternetNZ, and Jade Software. It was a huge campaign, and I would like to acknowledge all the members behind it. My only regret, though, with the Government listening to the experts and to the industry and putting the software patent exemption back in, is that I cannot give the speech that I wanted to give to the Minister about what a fantastic Minister he was, as such, and how he was supporting New Zealand industry, as such, because it was those two little words\u2014\u201Cas such\u201D\u2014that made the whole issue clear as mud. That would have seen our information technology sector focused on litigation, not on innovation and not on coding. So I will not be able to take the mickey out of the Minister in that speech, but I would much rather be giving a speech in congratulation and acknowledging the role played there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill is about jobs and innovation. It is about supporting our thriving information and communications technology sector, which grew by $3 billion in the last 2 years. Our high-tech sector is a critical part of our economy and a critical way that the Greens see jobs and prosperity going forward. Obviously, patents issues and debates do not end here. This bill is by no means ideal. It is a step in the right direction, but what we need to do is have a fundamental conversation about what intellectual property looks like in the 21st century. What does intellectual property patents copyright look like in the internet age? It is deeply disappointing that we will not be seeing a copyright review. Copyright is a significant driver of not only economic development but also freedom of speech and public discussion, and it is deeply disappointing that we are not going to see that review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn the midst of the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement and the Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations, which are not public and which could curtail some of our current exemptions or fair dealing, or which could take a much more punitive approach to intellectual property issues, these are live issues. The people behind the software patents win cannot give up. There is a whole bunch more that we need to address when it comes to intellectual property issues to keep our country going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn summary, the Greens are supporting this bill in Part 1. We recognise that it is a step forward. It is not ideal. We do have concerns around patenting of life. We do not think the M\u0101ori advisory committee is as strong as it should be. But, still, the bill is a step forward, a step in the right direction, and we will be supporting it. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229b06b62385c942ef9a6ad4f8b9e90c64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b06b62385c942ef9a6ad4f8b9e90c64\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E It is always my pleasure to take a call when I can give a speech that talks about the innovative economy and job creation\u2014[Interruption]; thank you, Mr Mallard\u2014because this is New Zealand\u2019s natural advantage. This is about our raw material, which is the talent that underpins New Zealand\u2019s future, and underpinning that is our intellectual property law. Specifically, it is our patent law and how we are going to protect our economy in the 21st century and protect what that economy is based on, as colleagues have talked about. I want to acknowledge the work of members right across this House. I want to acknowledge the hard work of my colleague Clare Curran, next to me, who I am sure will be taking a call on this in the very near future to finish the story she started telling about what this law means to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the work that has gone on around the House, because this bill, the Patents Bill, does balance the two interests that need to be balanced within any considerations of intellectual property. First, it allows innovators to profit from their inventions. It allows the people who put in the work and their talent and their ideas to commercialise their ideas and to make businesses out of them. In Labour, this is something that we celebrate, and it was one of the reasons why we thought that having a research and development tax credit was a reasonably good idea. These are the kinds of measures we need to have to celebrate innovation. But what we also need to be very careful about as legislators in this country\u2014and I think this bill does this very well\u2014is that we balance out the monopoly rights that accompany patents and make sure that they are not unduly exploited. That is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAbout 3 weeks ago I had the pleasure of attending the launch of Shaun Hendy\u2019s excellent new book, Get Off the Grass, which talks about innovation in New Zealand. This was a book that Shaun started with Sir Paul Callaghan before Sir Paul\u2019s death, and Shaun finished it off. One of the things that Shaun talks about extensively in this book is the innovation networks that exist in New Zealand, and one of the ways that he explores these innovation networks is through our patenting system. Who is collaborating with whom? Who is it? It is this ability for people to work together and to commercialise these ideas that underpins this. I really encourage people to go and look at this, because it is the culture of innovation and these innovation networks that underpin this. We see universities sitting at the centre of this. They are committed to research-based excellence, and flowing out from this are all kinds of opportunities that can be commercialised. But in order to do that\u2014to have New Zealand businesses that can make successful companies out of these ideas\u2014we need the ability to protect our intellectual property. In New Zealand, much of our expertise does lie in our ability in the agritech sector, and we do need to realise that much of our intellectual property is in the form of living organisms. It is our plant variety rights and our ability to utilise these. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe ability for us to protect plant variety rights in this country is the basis of the business model under which Zespri operates. Hort16A, or golden kiwifruit, which is the other name by which it is known, is a plant variety right that was developed by what was HortResearch, and it is the very basis of why Zespri is able to make its way in the world. It has the proprietary rights on this fruit and it is the way in which it can survive. Not only are things like Hort16A incredibly important to us and our need to be able to protect those technologies but also we need to understand New Zealand\u2019s technological future in a very complicated way. It is not just about factories pumping things out, although these are important. It is not just about software, although that is undoubtedly important. But the technological basis of what our agricultural sector will be and how we will transform ourselves as an agricultural nation from being a mere commodity producer is something that we need to think about in a sophisticated way, and we need to think about what will underpin that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E Not only do we have the example of Hort16A, the plant variety right that is crucial to the commercial success of Zespri, but when we think about our apple imports and what that is worth to our economy, we have over $1 billion a year in apple exports alone, and 70 percent of those exports is premised on four varieties. One of those varieties is the Jazz apple. Again, that is a plant variety right that was developed by some excellent talent in this country at HortResearch. It is something that can be protected under plant variety rights, and it is really important that we have the ability to do this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnother example where we do actually have to think about what a 21st century economy is\u2014one that is sustainable and has absolutely at its heart our ability to protect our intellectual property in terms of our pasture in New Zealand\u2014is how New Zealand is going to radically reduce its greenhouse emissions. It is through the development of new pastures. When our dairy sector is one of the largest emitters in our country, we need the ability to protect some of the excellent work that the Grassland Association is doing around various pasture types. I am going to talk more about some of these examples and what the ability to protect this kind of intellectual property means when we get to Part 3 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI would like to congratulate colleagues across the House. I think this is a timely piece of legislation. It has had a long time in gestation and a lot of hard work has been put into it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u00228a68bcd3345048a28c71f130cd5253b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a68bcd3345048a28c71f130cd5253b2\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Just in speaking on Part 1 of the Patents Bill, in clause 3, \u201CPurposes\u201D, it is very clear that there is to be an understanding between the interests of inventors and patent owners and the interests of society as a whole, and I will go into this a little bit more in Part 2. But there are some elements, of course, that are inappropriate. Again, the bill seeks to address some of those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI would like to congratulate the Minister of Commerce on the elements that have been included as exclusions from this, but it does need to go that little bit further. It will be interesting when we look at the purposes and overview of the bill when some of these issues in the areas of life and organisms come up in the courts, where it will be considered whether something is absolutely new, or whether it is new only because different components have been pulled together. It could be clearer. It certainly allows for genetic engineering, and that is one of the real risks of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe were just hearing about the Plant Variety Rights Act. That is very, very strong. It does look out for people breeding plants in New Zealand, and it is good to see that plants have been excluded. But in terms of the purposes clause, I think it could have been stronger, and the Supplementary Order Paper following will address that in part. It is great that there was this cross-party effort to deal with issues around software and the like, and it is fantastic to see a national approach, in the truest sense of the word. A countrywide approach is something that we can all be proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe inventiveness is really a concerning part when it comes to life, and then also the interpretation. Moving to clause 5, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, with regards to the Budapest Treaty, and the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights as well, I am concerned that, unfortunately, those sorts of treaties that we enter into outside Parliament, when our negotiators and others go over there, could actually be pulled into New Zealand regulation and whatever through this bill. So things may happen that we do not intend because of the inclusion of the Budapest Treaty and some of the ramifications of that. I am not quite sure that other members actually understand the lengths that that can go to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe Greens will be supporting this bill because of those positive parts, but we will address some of the others in the Supplementary Order Papers and will seek support on those. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002211350a1694da48039fbafa60ce21d731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211350a1694da48039fbafa60ce21d731\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I want to acknowledge what my colleague Megan Woods said about the importance of a modern patent regime that allows for the fundamental underpinning of our intellectual property system and enables the commercialisation of our inventions and our ideas, for the benefit of New Zealand\u2019s economy. That is fundamentally important. There will be much discussion on the Supplementary Order Paper that has been proposed by the Green Party member Steffan Browning, which Labour will not be supporting, but there will be room for more discussion on that later on as we get through the parts of this Patents Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge what the Minister of Commerce said when he took a call on this part of the bill, Part 1, and the work that has been undertaken to get to the point that we are now, and I will elaborate on that in a minute. But I do want to finish the story of how this bill came to be back in this House 3\u00BD years after coming back from the Commerce Committee and, with regards to the exclusion\u2014one of the key exclusions in this bill\u2014which is for software to be patentable, why that was so important, and what happened after it got back to the House. When it came back, there was that clear, simple exclusion. There were concerns because the bill sat on the Order Paper for such a long time. There were questions to the Minister of Commerce at the time, Simon Power, about whether there was still a commitment to the intent of the select committee. Those commitments were given. But unbeknown to us on this side of the Chamber, the pressure certainly had come on and had come on from those who had not submitted at the select committee and who represented, essentially, the multinational software corporations, notably Microsoft and IBM. Also, I have to acknowledge some of New Zealand\u2019s big companies, including Fisher and Paykel Appliances, which did remain concerned about the lack of definition in the bill of embedded software. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAs we feared, in August 2012 the current Minister, Mr Foss, who was trying to deal with this situation\u2014and, ultimately, we would contend, at that point made things worse\u2014amended the bill to include, as my Green colleague Gareth Hughes said, that controversial \u201Cas such\u201D language. Although the Minister said in the Chamber today that his purpose was simply to clarify the intention to exclude software patents, that amendment proved to be hugely controversial. Our contention then was that the multinationals had, in effect, won, and that they had got a clause that would suit their purposes rather than those of the local IT industry. That industry mounted a concerted push back on that unclear \u201Cas such\u201D language, that amendment. An industry petition was launched that was backed by groups such as the Institute of IT Professionals New Zealand, InternetNZ, NZRise, and the New Zealand Open Source Society. They set that up and it gained huge support almost immediately. That petition called on the Government to remove the ambiguous \u201Cas such\u201D language and replace it with a simpler clause that would clarify that underlying intention. I adopted that petition\u2019s proposed alternative clause as a proposed amendment to counter the Minister\u2019s amendment at that time, and other MPs in this House got behind that and raised concerns about the lack of clarity in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThat was in September last year. It is now the end of August in 2013. It took between then, September last year, and May this year and the concerted efforts of many people and political pressure for there to be some very good work done on providing what is perhaps now an even better bill\u2014and I say this in the Committee today\u2014than the one that came back to the House in 2010. So I do want to acknowledge that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe new clause 10A that we are now seeing in the Committee today is very carefully worded. It has wide support. It ensures that we will not go down the European Union path by effectively hard coding those parts of that UK Aerotel test, which I mentioned earlier. It means that even if the UK approach to patent law does drift towards a more liberal regime to allow more software patents, New Zealand will not. I think that is something that all of us in this Committee today can be hugely proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI want to recognise the hundreds and hundreds of New Zealand software developers and innovators who worked tirelessly and patiently to explain their industry to us members of Parliament, and to explain how innovation in code occurs and how it can be stifled by the might of a multinational that claims the right to a piece of code. It is, in effect, a mathematical algorithm, like a phrase in a book or a piece of music\u2014a series of notes in a piece of music that cannot be locked up in a metaphorical box, for if they are, we all lose out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge some people individually. I want to acknowledge Paul Matthews from the New Zealand Institute of IT Professionals, and Don Christie and Daniel Spector from NZRise, which represents New Zealand IT companies to promote Kiwi innovation. I also want to acknowledge Guy Burgess and Dave Lane, experts in this field. I want to acknowledge the Greens for sticking to their guns, New Zealand First for taking the time to listen and understand, and also the M\u0101ori Party and Mana for backing Kiwi innovation. I actually want to acknowledge Peter Dunne. We do not agree on many matters, but on this particular matter he did the right thing, and it was his vote that actually mattered. Finally, I want to acknowledge the work that the Minister has done, because he knuckled down with the officials. He listened, he knuckled down with the officials and the industry, and he worked out a compromise that could see us with one of the best pieces of law in the world in this area of intellectual property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc6db00706754500ad98b9c577e6a679\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc6db00706754500ad98b9c577e6a679\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E It is not long to go until the lunch break, so I intend to take only a brief call on Part 1 of the Patents Bill. I was very interested to see that the very first subclause in clause 3, \u201CPurposes\u201D, was actually added by the Commerce Committee, and it says that the Act is to \u201Cprovide an efficient and effective patent system that\u2014(i) promotes innovation and economic growth while providing an appropriate balance between the interests of inventors and patent owners and the interests of society as a whole;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think there is an increasing awareness in our communities of how important that balance is. If we weigh that balance too heavily towards the patent owners and inventors, then that can entrench inequalities, particularly between large multinational corporations and small businesses, entrepreneurs, and innovators trying to commercialise their ideas and to grow new businesses. And, of course, if we do not recognise the efforts of inventors and patent owners, then that itself stifles innovation. Striking that balance is of enormous importance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWhen thinking about the interests of society, I think in particular of the way Pharmac works, and Pharmac\u2019s ability to purchase off-patent medicines. At the moment in New Zealand, medicines come off patent after 20 years. I know that there is some international pressure for us to change that approach, but I think that 20 years is a good balance. It allows inventors of new medicines to reap the rewards of their research and development, but it also means that society can benefit from those lower-cost generic medicines once they come off patent. I think that is a very, very good example of the balance that paragraphs (aa)(i) and (aa)(ii) in clause 3 are trying to achieve. I know that in the near future we will be debating more and more\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f67c5b38a684a76b3273562112ae32a\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a26d6bb1cce46cd9ab136ba4bb666bd\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002221de5e2cdf704acc90825413decec4bb\u0022\u003EElectricity Market\u2014T\u012Bwai Point Smelter Subsidy and Sales of State-owned Assets\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca6465bec8ce47ffad33444656cccb33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca6465bec8ce47ffad33444656cccb33\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Why is the $30 million taxpayer funded subsidy to Rio Tinto being managed by the \u201CGovernment Share Offers Programme\u201D in the Treasury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002205bad8a79f1b401aa1dfa0e7ffd78fa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205bad8a79f1b401aa1dfa0e7ffd78fa7\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The member is wrong on three counts: it was not a subsidy, it was not paid to Rio Tinto, and it is not managed by the Government share offers programme in Treasury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b940755071c7472d8caea6f7e8e0cd53\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the refusal to release the background documents justifying the $30 million subsidy to Rio Tinto, which had been addressed to the head of Treasury, responded to by the director of the Government share offers programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2375bd87aac4359bf3520fa77e12ac8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is interested in the details of how Treasury is organised around these things, there is a group called the commercial transactions group, which has dealt with the failure of South Canterbury Finance and the buy-out of AMI, and is the group within which the share float programme is managed. It is actually the commercial transactions group that is in charge of any of the significant commercial transactions that the Government does. The $30 million is paid to New Zealand Aluminium Smelters, not to Rio Tinto.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d19ad9b768241ff9f262f353e13c951\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Official Information Act request that was addressed to the head of Treasury, dated 21 August.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b8ebba7c5a2483996fc14a59eb0a0fc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that particular letter. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b8b4ae2b32c40fa990e982c188b324b\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the reply from the director of the Government share offers programme, dated 26 August 2013, which declined the request.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f371b4ee3b4d3bbc4067d2036f8111\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the reply to that particular letter. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It can be so tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448947763c094cc395b8bc95bcf139f6\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How can he deny that the dominant purpose of the $30 million subsidy was to facilitate the sale of Meridian Energy, given that the refusal to release information came from the Government share offers programme section of Treasury, despite the fact that the request for information was not sent to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0d3784f43b459abefd2c67133653b6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member is drawing a long bow. The Government has been quite transparent about the transaction. It has outlined the reasons why it entered into that transaction. One of the reasons is that it would create certainty for investors in Meridian Energy, but I can assure the member that the decision was made by Ministers, and how the Treasury wiring diagram flows did not make any difference to the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad7f94b20154573b20e081bc07c64f7\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Did the $30 million smelter subsidy payment have any significant effect on the demand for electricity by the smelter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df8040af84494c6dac19e70d5c118ed4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am not exactly sure what the member means, but the finalising of the contract means that Meridian Energy has an option to reduce the amount of electricity that it supplies to the smelter in a couple of years\u2019 time. Whether the smelter reduces its demand would depend on how much production it wants to continue with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fe54ce281b48409607b424b2124436\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does he understand that his $30 million interference in the electricity market is yet more proof that the New Zealand electricity market is uncompetitive, with the consequence of higher charges for other businesses and residential consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0be54fc8284310b29765d3777de39e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, but if we are going to talk about the smelter, the member needs to explain to other Labour MPs that the biggest beneficiary of Labour\u2019s policy on the electricity market would be New Zealand Aluminium Smelters. By far it would be the biggest beneficiary of any reduction in average electricity prices, because it sources its electricity from Manap\u014Duri dam, which is probably one of the cheapest generators in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecaab01306974bdf93f2d18d587d4545\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: If the smelter subsidy would have occurred irrespective of the Meridian Energy float, why is it that his Government did not offer similar subsidies to Holcim cement or Norske Skog, both high energy users, to stop them laying off workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e04219efcd467b8d0e8ae3fea699a4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I did not say it would have occurred independent of the Meridian Energy float. But that member needs to explain why his policy to reduce power prices will primarily benefit New Zealand Aluminium Smelters, when I have seen calculations it could be worth up to $150 million per year to New Zealand Aluminium Smelters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251304b7d0e374f8cb25ce3adb7640f95\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the real reason he is failing to disclose properly the facts behind the smelter subsidy from New Zealanders the same reason that he is refusing to properly discuss the effect on the electricity market and electricity prices\u2014that is, if New Zealanders knew the truth, they would immediately see through the spin around the Meridian Energy sale?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c15e5c19e8b4467834c88709a8bbff0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There is no spin. The Government has been absolutely clear about the payment\u2014absolutely clear about the reasons for it. What that member needs to be able to explain is why his policy to cut electricity prices will hand the biggest single benefit to the smelter, and also explain whether it is Labour\u2019s policy that no payment should have been made and the 800 workers should have been sacked, because that is what that member said a number of months ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264644a33601e4679a6c98772f3d56e05\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In a rather unusual turn of events, the Minister of Finance in his answers asked David Parker a number of questions. I seek leave for David Parker to be able to answer them. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022629c6ff226374e00829c391cc1000b6c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member should bone up on the Standing Orders. He cannot seek leave on behalf of someone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285bbff83be354038a6bcc104ab538525\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to answer those questions. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220877dc913d5c43deabd28995555262e5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think on this occasion there were some questions, so the honourable member can seek leave. I will put the leave. Leave is so sought. Is there any objection? Yes, there is. [Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022886a30a4f8d04b718a397f99aedfcab3\u0022\u003EHousing, Affordable\u2014Market Stability and Land Supply Policies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a013509b0e1a48dd97bbe7e363f6756a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a013509b0e1a48dd97bbe7e363f6756a\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What measures is the Government taking to help prevent a repeat of the damaging housing bubble that contributed to significant economic imbalances in New Zealand in the mid-2000s?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022280025bed62b43ac8dc8170c86535490\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022280025bed62b43ac8dc8170c86535490\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In the period between 2001 and 2007, house prices in New Zealand doubled, and the export sector went into recession in the middle of what was actually a global economic boom. As is now widely accepted, housing supply constraints are one of the major causes of housing bubbles. That is why the Government is working with the Auckland and Christchurch city councils to increase greenfields and brownfields land supply, reduce the delays, costs and uncertainties of the Resource Management Act, improve infrastructure provision, and look to improve the productivity in the construction sector. The Government is giving effect to these through the special housing areas legislation, and two Resource Management Act reform bills this year, and we look forward to the Opposition support for these pieces of legislation, which improve housing affordability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977482068739462eb0b9be2e0a002b8f\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What effect does the Government expect these measures to have on housing supply, and what additional steps is the Government taking to directly support first-home buyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4df1760b11541e5a721e0dda8324042\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government and the Auckland Council have a common objective of more affordable housing, and have therefore agreed to the Auckland Housing Accord and to introduce supporting legislation to deliver fast tracking of consents in less affordable areas. The Auckland accord targets 39,000 housing consents over the next 3 years. This is up from fewer than 12,000 over the last 3 years. We expect that this will have some effect in slowing the rate of increase in house prices, because ideally we would like to see wages rise at least as fast as house prices so that houses can become more affordable. This is in addition to the Government\u2019s recently announced moves to support first-home buyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283decda44984cb0ae7986e3cdaf0082\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on Resource Management Act changes that are cutting red tape and freeing up land supply, and why does this matter for the cost of housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f0d0af48f1944e7bf818a1d8b1e4512\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports that say the Government\u2019s Resource Management Act changes will give homeowners and developers the certainty and the confidence that they need to proceed with more investment in more houses on the ground at a time when we need them in order to slow down the rapid rise in house prices. I have seen one report that the cost of waiting for building and resource consents to be processed is between $1,000 and $1,600 per house, per week. That is money that must be recovered from the sale price, and directly contributes to making houses less affordable. That is why there is broad support, except from the Opposition, for the Government\u2019s changes to resource management legislation to reduce the number of weeks, because every week we can reduce the length of that process, we can save prospective homeowners between $1,000 and $1,600.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1d2deee18e4b86a027e389bdbacf96\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What alternative housing policies has he seen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223034d127d2af438aa175b2ccbb6c7162\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Land is around 60 percent of the cost of a house in Auckland, so it would be ridiculous for any housing affordability policy to fail to include a mechanism for delivering lower land prices. I have seen one of these policies. It does not talk about land supply, or infrastructure, or red tape, or construction sector productivity, and it is the Labour policy, backed by three of its leaders so far and no doubt will be backed by the next one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea0ed4bd2b1473bb71a7a4deaca06ca\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If you are going to allow the Minister of Finance to quote Labour Party policy, could you ensure that he at least gets it right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cbaa6765ffb49b8b9420fe0a5418685\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the point the member is making, but it is not actually a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229564767c50184eccacc6d4370531e536\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards\u2014Resourcing and Service Delivery, and Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00226cb71d3786ae43ccaea5048748a9492a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cb71d3786ae43ccaea5048748a9492a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Do all district health boards have sufficient resources to provide safe, quality health services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002230480f500b9d423ea56d50993135e241\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230480f500b9d423ea56d50993135e241\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. My objective is that all patients receive high-quality care. This is helped by having over 2,500 more nurses employed by district health boards across the country under our Government. As the member knows, from time to time, as we have seen in the Hutt Valley story in today\u2019s Dominion Post, during the winter season of heavy demand and staff illnesses there are periods of extra pressure on staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223267364ce87841a7a9634e6258e51af4\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, has he seen the press release a few moments ago from the New Zealand Nurses Organisation stating that the practice of care rationing to patients \u201Cis widespread as DHBs and the nursing team are forced to do more with fewer staff and less money.\u201D, and that \u201CFiscal constraints are creating a \u2018a head in the sand approach\u2019 to staffing issues in our hospitals.\u201D; if so, when will he get his head out of the sand, or wherever it is, and listen to our valuable health professionals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d896e9f6935b498f86b06c8da2983fe1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen that press release from the nurses union, but what I do know is that in the term of this Government there are now 2,500 extra nurses working in our district health boards, together with extra funding averaging $500 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b5cff60e82442da0069a9896b2cc68\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been informed that acute mental health community services over all five localities at Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board are required to reduce their expenditure by $1 million this year, with 16 positions to be lost, because of budget constraints; if so, what impact will these cuts have on patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222310dced9ccd451e8a130fd4578dbc8a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board is looking at how it can best arrange its services in that community, and that is the reason why this Government gave it an extra $31 million in this year\u2019s Budget, a total of $226 million extra for the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board over the last 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022025b0557d7c84229b120992db1d08762\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, has he been told that the acute response in forensic mental health services at Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board is required to save $250,000 this year, and that the staffing at the adult in-patient units is to be reviewed to save $305,000 this year; if so, what impact would these cuts have on patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022545784c5cce149d7874a62b8c1a6be9b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the exact details of those changes, but what I do know is that this year we have given the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board an extra $31 million, and in the last 5 years it has employed 143 extra doctors and 302 extra nurses onto the front line of health care on the North Shore and West Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a365ff97794a4ffcad5a637e7ad8854f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, has he been told that community, alcohol, and drug staffing at Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board is to be reduced to save $436,000 this year, and that an NGO provider is to have its contract reduced by $232,000 this year; if so, what impact will this have on patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022588e73b36ad145d99b4cf2cf145d685e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Because we are giving the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board an extra $31 million this year, I am fully expecting that services will improve in those areas. This Government is focused on delivering more care for patients. That is one of the reasons that we have over 300 extra nurses and 143 extra doctors at the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board, and that patients no longer wait 3 days on hospital trolleys in corridors under bright fluorescent lights in the emergency department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1030c74206490bb4a2cbfb3de43ddc\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been told that administration support for mental health services at Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board is to be cut by 25 percent to save $1.19 million and budgeted sick leave is to be reduced from 10 days to 7 days to save $260,000, and do all these cuts measure up to his promise of better mental health services for people in Waitemat\u0101?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db9c968af2ef437f8f31235c0ddf3dcc\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have never had an Opposition MP talking about cuts to administration and being opposed to them before. We are right behind any reductions in administrative staff and having the money put into better services for patients, with the extra $226 million that we have put into Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board providing more services for patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f7b095696554fa0997cc5be794fe8fc\u0022\u003EYouth Employment and Training\u2014Youth Guarantee and Industry Training\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00228829e58fc7824eed88f30dbb76548e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228829e58fc7824eed88f30dbb76548e50\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment: What reports has he received on the performance of the Youth Guarantee scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00226e22ba9a03984f6689cf04a2b7075b26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e22ba9a03984f6689cf04a2b7075b26\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E This morning I released the latest figures from the Tertiary Education Commission on the Youth Guarantee scheme. The Government established Youth Guarantee fees-free tertiary places in 2008 for students who find the traditional classroom environment challenging and were at risk of dropping out of school. The 2012 results for Youth Guarantee show course completions at tertiary institutions that provide Youth Guarantee improved to 70 percent in 2012\u2014up from 63 percent in 2010. Qualification rates have also increased from 48 percent in 2010 to a very impressive 64 percent in 2012.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4841961d8164daeb66d4150d95bf7e2\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How many students were enrolled in Youth Guarantee in 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d4df6d1c7f41e1ad7483e79ebc0e57\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: There were 8,900 students enrolled in Youth Guarantee fees-free tertiary education in 2012, and by 2015 the Government will be funding up to approximately 15,500 full-time equivalent student places. A large number of students involved in Youth Guarantee have had little previous achievement at secondary level. In 2012, 39 percent of them arrived at Youth Guarantee with little or no qualifications. In 2011 the Youth Training programme was merged into the Youth Guarantee scheme, and it is great to see that students of former youth training providers are producing significantly better results under Youth Guarantee. Credit achievement for that group has risen from an average of 24.8 credits in 2011 to 37.3 credits 1 year later\u2014a 66 percent increase in just 1 year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7a16497c4f4fe4a43d5833dea5e327\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What other steps is the Government doing to help young people succeed in education or work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b1197d4a0b4219a81d0b6535b7a123\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: When we came into office 4\u00BD years ago too many young people were falling between the cracks between education and work. A couple of the initiatives we have taken include taking the pruning shears to the thousands of qualifications below degree level. In 2008 there were 6,000. We are on track to be down to 1,800 by the end of next year. At the end of it a hairdresser, a plumber, and a joiner will be able to complete the same qualification that is trusted by employers whether they do it at a polytech, at a private training establishment, or as an apprentice. We have set up vocational pathways in National Certificate of Educational Achievement in schools and in Youth Guarantee providers. They list good subjects for young people to take at secondary school to set them up for a career in industry sectors. And we are rebooting industry training\u2014creating New Zealand Apprenticeships, boosting overall funding, increasing the educational content, and untangling the spaghetti of industry training organisations that we inherited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d80e76bee834e28b3c404a60d00c70e\u0022\u003ECallaghan Innovation\u2014KiwiStar Optics\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002274bc77cbd80e4b03b10c012955a643f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274bc77cbd80e4b03b10c012955a643f3\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Science and Innovation: What reports or briefings has he received regarding the commercial future of KiwiStar Optics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002243ed5bead8994d7291e3f00bfb330f4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243ed5bead8994d7291e3f00bfb330f4c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Science and Innovation):\u003C/span\u003E As I advised the member in my answer to written question No. 10617, as at 12 August I had received five reports containing information relating to KiwiStar Optics. The names of those reports are listed in that written question, which was lodged on 12 August. Since that time I have received one additional fortnightly progress update report that includes information relating to KiwiStar Optics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba7b4e2beeaa44c1b5bf250634dcd765\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Is Callaghan Innovation planning to license or sell KiwiStar Optics\u2019 intellectual property, primary design, and/or rights to the Australian Government - owned Australian Astronomical Observatory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d95f81988a641c4865ccd8db2484c18\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of that. I do know that Callaghan Innovation is looking for a range of options in terms of KiwiStar Optics\u2019 future to encourage opportunities for that organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06ef1cace574f6eac8e46c308797db5\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: How much public funding has KiwiStar Optics received since 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1d05459e0f84ea0b419d965404deda5\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that answer for the member in front of me. If she would like to put it down in a written question, I would be happy to provide that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e84638154b54f3b879c3d6f075d15d8\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Government invested $1.4 million in KiwiStar Optics in 2008, what returns can the New Zealand taxpayer now expect, given that Callaghan Innovation has refused to sign a major commercial contract?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d10f45d3e27408f8f444c9959782dae\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is an interesting question the member raises, which, I suggest, suggests that she does not actually understand the issues that are there. Callaghan Innovation was looking at signing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263aab1e28eb74469af364c59e34f6a63\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229283ca32b10d4177b88146b05f2ee1b3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise. We have a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022363c1042d0474b5e8d01c948a8af3c71\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very straight question. The Minister did not need to denigrate the questioner in the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc615b5cffd46648892478f0d35fdbb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! It was a straight question. I would like the opportunity to listen to the answer. If we could hear from the Minister, then I will judge\u2014[Interruption] I do not accept that there was a denigration at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f71861300e049a6a0baa459368f1db2\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, I think there is a misunderstanding there, because the reason\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a9e556d59294ae39381fb84044d5a68\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what you said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d640ed30304682a33f99dfe1c6deff\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would you allow the Minister to answer the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1e1c14d9de4ba096839d842f96f7b5\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I said I think the member has made a misunderstanding there. You can get me to repeat it as often as you like, Trevor, but I think she did. The point in regard to this is that one of the major reasons Callaghan Innovation did not want to sign that contract was the very significant fiscal risk that it believes it would have to take up for what was a fixed-price, fixed-term contract\u2014[Interruption] He is back. It was a fixed-term, fixed-price contract that carried significant risk, so it could end up actually costing taxpayers more money, and there would be no return from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dadf1d9f64b4017b92fc6f2795315eb\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider it Callaghan Innovation\u2019s core business to shut down high-value science and manufacturing opportunities in New Zealand, as it has done with KiwiStar Optics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed30ae83efe94fbebae16e210084f47e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member is simply incorrect. It has not done anything of the sort. What it is looking for is opportunities for KiwiStar Optics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e532d0e413b24153a365c0cc8e6eec48\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Selling it to the Aussies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf5949e9ac04c548f890b4729e53bba\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member is saying that it should never ever sell any of its capability to anybody, then Callaghan Innovation will always end up doing what it always did. What we are working on here is actually getting closer to businesses that need research and development support, and that is the whole principle of Callaghan Innovation. If the member disagrees with that, she is welcome to it, but I am very much in favour of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c85a433587044d2284c962beff5e7dfe\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What value is there to the taxpayer by sending eight to 10 of our brightest and best scientists and technicians to Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e74265a4a3914609bc89b83ddd2bfde0\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody is suggesting that. I appreciate that is Mr Mallard\u2019s view, but that is not what is being suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b552b9a1dcec423aa1abb211fd078f50\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly what\u2019s going to happen. He knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c28ef092b64cb7a73828585c57530c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. It is absolutely wrong, Trevor\u2014absolutely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002296a774d6f88c4850824c4cf10e0ba720\u0022\u003EMinerals Exploration, Central North Island\u2014Pureora Forest Park\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002257e4f24f863c48dcabc01befa1d548bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257e4f24f863c48dcabc01befa1d548bc\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements relating to Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2fd61397f1f4b37b996966e02ec2ce7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2fd61397f1f4b37b996966e02ec2ce7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261dda19a050c47548da39aabcd92009a\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement from November 2011 that \u201COur environment is a valuable resource that we must preserve and protect. It\u2019s a big part of our quality of life and it\u2019s central to our international reputation, our primary sector, our growing tourism market, and our economy.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289473391dd384b0c8986ee3fe7db4ef6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; because it was correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022682e41eea5a44a098f0f878e958f00fb\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile that statement\u2014that we must protect our environment\u2014with his decision yesterday to open up the ancient t\u014Dtara forest of Pureora for mineral exploitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226390918b755f494aa82ecf60c056357b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is talking about the submission around epithermal gold, that is because the belief is that there may be opportunities there. But, obviously, they have to be done in a way that is sympathetic to the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244065c90f224414ab1f791a0a4ee11c9\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Why has his Government opened up Pureora Forest Park for mineral prospecting in an area containing the last giant t\u014Dtara trees left in New Zealand\u2014trees that are so old that they were old before the first M\u0101ori set foot in New Zealand, and that is one of the last strongholds of the k\u014Dkako?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c626b370b5ea4656af44ff75618e5a9f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think anyone is suggesting that if there was to be mining for epithermal gold, it would take place in a way that would challenge or threaten those trees. That is not going to be something that would get the appropriate consent from the authorities, and it will not occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022911beebbe45247b5a346f17a1ed699b9\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain exactly how it is compatible to mine for gold within Pureora Forest Park without disrupting the last remnant, ancient, 1,000-year-old t\u014Dtara left in New Zealand, and one of the last strongholds of k\u014Dkako?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42c16e6274a40c4a9c61053a5c76b55\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding at this point is that there is no mining that is taking place. What is taking place is that there is an issue of looking at block offers, looking at a potential issue. As I said earlier, in the end that case can be made about anything that takes place in New Zealand. By definition there are wonderful and special things right across this country and in the seas that surround it. But we have in the past been able, and we will continue in the future, to balance those environmental protections that are absolutely necessary with the economic opportunities that present themselves with modern-day mining techniques.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e042ef6f4ac740b496b863c7192f1e6e\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was specifically \u201CHow is it possible to do such mining?\u201D, and I have heard no such answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299150c4f7bcc4bd7a09aaf10ed2529ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The question was adequately addressed by the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270513f5b218f462dac6ed76186ac8502\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the national cycle trail is planned to pass through this ancient, towering rainforest, does he think that people will want to ride down the cycle trail through this fantastic piece of ancient rainforest while there is active goldmining under way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c8e7b8702354d10a7b09365910a72b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do actually, depending on, of course, how that takes place. People cycle round to Shantytown on the West Coast all the time to look at the old historical mining that has taken place there. I say to the member that he should not be too judgmental; from memory, one of the \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D ads that has been filmed recently, or pictures that have been taken, was actually in front of an old quarry mine that was filled in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022025cfc2cbee34180ac36d48eae2834d5\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Will he listen to the wise words of Hone T\u016Bwhare writing about Pureora in 1978, who said \u201CStop your raping of the land\u201D, and will he keep his drilling rigs out of Pureora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212ec2e5052c74b50bb3b6bc26ace9dbc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233e1b37a94b541d59ac450109f19bc4b\u0022\u003EMinerals Exploration, Central North Island\u20142013 Epithermal Gold Tender\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd02157237544bbbb74fb064bca347db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd02157237544bbbb74fb064bca347db\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What recent announcements has he made about mineral exploration in the central North Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00222a18f184921d42ebb600574dee14a5af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a18f184921d42ebb600574dee14a5af\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday I announced the opening of the Epithermal Gold 2013 tender. The tender covers more than 8,000 square kilometres of the central volcanic zone across the Bay of Plenty and Waikato regions. Companies interested in exploring for minerals have until the end of January to submit bids for exploration\u2014not mining, Mr Norman. Following the success of the first minerals tender in Northland, the Government is keen to promote further opportunities for exploration that could offer, down the track, far-reaching benefits to local communities and regional development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261bfeec3991d499e9bb9e792d0281194\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the development of mining opportunities in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022290bff7a32844c889a0c1988c847057c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: In the course of my duties I have seen reports that called exploration and mining \u201Can essential feature of domestic and export growth,\u201D. I have also seen anti-exploration development leaflets distributed in Wellington, and I have seen a muddled interview on The Nation in which the interviewee seemed intent on not holding a firm view on mining development. While the contestants on that side of the House are all over the show, on this side of the House we believe mining has been, and will continue to be, a strong contributor to building a more productive economy for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022def6b5673adc4ffa859b9bec50d73ef8\u0022\u003EHousing\u2014Vacant State Properties and Ministerial Accommodation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002216842da7946246aab2c0784e70fbcf16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216842da7946246aab2c0784e70fbcf16\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What action is he taking to ensure that all available Housing New Zealand houses are tenanted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002216c618978a9f4ebb92bc71f4329f690a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c618978a9f4ebb92bc71f4329f690a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E The bulk of homes not tenanted are because of earthquake damage, earthquake risk, and Housing New Zealand\u2019s major redevelopment programme. The first action I am taking is to get real pace into the Christchurch earthquake repair programme. The $320 million insurance settlement is enabling us to get on with the repair of the 5,000 homes that were damaged there. The second action is on earthquake buildings in places like Wellington. I am actually very pleased that we vacated buildings like the Gordon Wilson Flats, because after the most recent quakes there was significant damage that could have posed a risk to those tenants. We have got work well-advanced on strengthening a number of the State houses in Wellington and a programme of work to determine which can be economically repaired and which should be replaced. The third action announced in the Budget was a $2.9 billion investment, the biggest in more than 20 years, on improving our overall State housing portfolio. This massive programme of work will result in additional vacancies, particularly in areas where we are demolishing groups of old houses and rebuilding far more houses of better quality, more appropriately sized, on that same land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208f5d7a982374c67995d92be7d584347\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What action does Housing New Zealand take to remove squatters from its houses and recover rent owed by former tenants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0b00dbcd6c4465b3ffecc1cd8518d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with any specific examples of squatting in any of the State houses. But the general intent would be, where people have been given a reasonable time to get out of homes\u2014but if the member has got a specific example, I would be happy to have it drawn to my attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df5d6c1b71aa48fcb31010ff4d8137d8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What action, if any, has he taken to ensure that the approximately $10,800 owed by one former State house tenant is paid?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209beb490214a4309b67c588cc14130f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Unless the member gave me an example of the particular tenancy, then I am not aware of which example the member is giving. State houses have about 69,000 tenants, so it is not possible for me to give an instant answer on any one of those cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225025f84f5777495c93c1f528555c5940\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has Housing New Zealand given any advice to Ministerial Services as to how to recover approximately $10,800 which was not paid when he squatted for over 6 weeks in a $2 million house owned by Ministerial Services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228813c359c0124250a998b7dd45efbb8e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: When I resigned as a Minister last year, myself and my family stayed in the ministerial house until the end of that term for my kids, who were attending school in Wellington. Ministerial Services gave me consent to leave my personal belongings there until I established a new flat in Hill Street. I would note that it has long been the practice where Ministers resign\u2014and as occurs when there is a change of Government, such as after the 2008 election\u2014that families are given a reasonable amount of time to move. The time when my family moved out was less than 2 weeks after I resigned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de79c7c277994928931203e8cfff43b2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269df2933a06f435f9609870b6c438270\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has a right to ask questions, but I caution him to think seriously about treading into an issue like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280aaa1e12d494b788ae7e0672c2cb695\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document that shows that no rent was paid for that house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e495203373f647afac39634090f12157\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeb7d9c4897d4db48e419990a9f7ddad\u0022\u003ERt Hon John Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that when National became the Government in 2008, I said to the outgoing then Prime Minister that she should feel free to stay at Premier House as long as she wanted, without rent, to allow a smooth transition and to allow her to pack up with her family?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614d32ffef964e79967cc0cc8820a7b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Just before that question is answered, I do not think there is actually any ministerial responsibility for the Minister. I think on this occasion\u2014[Interruption] Order! The question has been asked, but I cannot see that there is a responsibility to the Hon Dr Nick Smith, as Minister of Housing, to answer that particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232cddc3bc3a941e581dcd52aca9864bf\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You saw fit for me to answer equivalent questions about my circumstances in respect of my ministerial house, and so I think it is appropriate that I be allowed to answer the Prime Minister\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49a396443da48cdb2b2fc43b2e8af59\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We are dealing with a question that was raised by the Prime Minister and asked to you as Minister of Housing. Are you seeking the right to answer that question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a9131569654d6cacf0be5b7dd7f3c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d47a7e509546c883149828dc8bd7af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On that basis, I am going to allow the Minister to\u2014[Interruption] Order! I have ruled that on the basis that the honourable Minister wants to answer the question, I am going to allow\u2014[Interruption] If there are further interjections coming from that side of the House, I will be asking both members to remove themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ec5b4e842b4905921690488b86674f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The attitude I have felt consistently from the Prime Minister, whether it was for the families and members opposite when they ceased to be Ministers, or my own experience, was one of sympathy for Ministers\u2019 families. I had children at school in Wellington, and I appreciated the Prime Minister\u2019s office allowing those children to stay at school for the 2 weeks to the end of term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc681dfb83bd4dfa8691d78d6ffc4e68\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Will he now set a good example to Housing New Zealand tenants by paying the $10,800 rent, as well as the un-reimbursed power, the housekeeper services, the weekly sheet changing and laundry services, the security services, and the gardening services from when he stayed in his $2 million former ministerial house after he resigned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da838d56cc404d76845253233a230064\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Dr Nick Smith, insofar as he has ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211eea01bd7e4db9ba37a92bf715ef6e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: At the time, I sought advice from both Ministerial Services and Parliamentary Service. I was told that I would not be able to claim a parliamentary allowance for the period the Prime Minister gave me to relocate my family as a backbencher, and so I was not claiming parliamentary allowances for the period of grace that Ministerial Services allowed me for my family to move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7d5621466864160992a361130191a03\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you would be able to assist the Opposition in its quest to gain these efficiencies for the State by perhaps ruling that if a Leader of the Opposition publicly announces their intention to relinquish that position, and then fails to turn up to Parliament, they may not also claim the ministerial salary and various other entitlements that go with that job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f477f84045af4b2a8e591367cce33a65\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not a valid point of order, but it shows Parliament where we go to when anybody tracks this line of questioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282b598f16cae4fa9be4381c08ae04c13\u0022\u003EElectoral System\u2014Legislative Reform and Improvements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002270e83fc107284503b8936728f83ba550\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270e83fc107284503b8936728f83ba550\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What changes is the Government making to election laws following the inquiry into the 2011 election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00222363595b2d3d438e918d13601beafbc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222363595b2d3d438e918d13601beafbc8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday I introduced the Electoral Amendment Bill that will implement improvements to our electoral system. The key changes include allowing greater use of the EasyVote cards to simplify and speed up voting processes and improve the accuracy and efficiency of scrutinising the rolls; providing for greater use of technology, including full online enrolment; using the Government\u2019s RealMe electronic identity verification; and clarifying the law around list seats. The bill also provides that loans exceeding $15,000 will be subject to the same disclosure rules as donations. These are sensible improvements that ensure our electoral system maintains its high level of integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c749465940d84bd692099e6a1e591d71\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: What other changes are being made as a result of the inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad7f02e34d0f4304b0bef5d7cf244218\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of recommendations from the Justice and Electoral Committee that do not require legislative change. The Government is obtaining further advice from the Electoral Commission on a long-term strategy for voting technology, incorporating civics education into the New Zealand school curriculum, and expanding public civics education. The Electoral Commission will be ensuring that future public information campaigns about electoral matters provide sufficient information and are accessible to all voters, including disabled voters. The commission is looking at ways to expand phone voting for vision-impaired voters. I aim for the bill to be enacted by early next year. This will ensure that the Electoral Commission has enough time before the 2014 general election to implement changes. It will also allow time for candidates and parties to be made aware of new requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f312f7515d4b42d19ebb7ba0861753b6\u0022\u003EConsumer Goods\u2014Australian Inquiry into Pricing of Digital and Electronic Products\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff6780ad1789456583d1a86eb5cebeae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff6780ad1789456583d1a86eb5cebeae\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Communications and Information Technology: Has she finished working through how the findings and recommendations of the Australian parliamentary inquiry into digital product prices may relate to New Zealand; if so, will she be taking any action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u002264134eeb06da4993af412cf2c7f78087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264134eeb06da4993af412cf2c7f78087\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for Communications and Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E Along with my colleague Minister Foss, we are continuing to work through the findings and recommendations of the Australian parliamentary inquiry. I recognise that this is an issue of similar concern in New Zealand, and accordingly I have directed my officials to work with their Australian counterparts so that advice can be informed by what response the Australian Government is likely to take to that review. It is important to note that these recommendations are still under active consideration by the Australian Government, which is currently in caretaker mode prior to the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229108de9d633543868d4ce06d47c82918\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it is fair that a recent survey of 100 common hardware and software products found that New Zealand consumers are paying on average 46 percent more than shoppers in the United States and that, for example, some laptops cost as much as three times more for New Zealanders than Americans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a7df65555d4ee0a9f36d291057c869\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: As far as I am aware, the survey the member refers to is his own. But, actually, I am aware that there is a significant differential between the pricing of a number of digital products in New Zealand compared with what they can be purchased for in the US. This can be as little as 2 percent\u2014for example, on the iPhoto for iPad product\u2014or it can range up to more than 100 percent. So clearly there is a differential between what a similar product costs in New Zealand and in the US. That is an issue that the Australian committee has found cannot be entirely reconciled by differences in the cost bases supplying those products, and that is why it is an issue that I have directed my officials to continue to look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209dc36565be94f039fd2ddb3ab6409fc\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a survey of 100 products, prepared by my office, which shows a 46 percent average higher cost charged by Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e681d0aff6d43ee9a68aa081e175988\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table such a survey. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228da614137a84d7eb7e99a57a26f8afd\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it is acceptable for companies to be charging consumers with geographic pricing, and for them to have to pay a premium, like the more than $1,000 for Adobe FrameMaker, just because they are downloading it in Wellington and not Washington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c5c8e4833214a25ab45b8922e5ee6a4\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: What I think we have to be careful of is getting into the space of whether it is the role of Governments to tell businesses what they can, and should, charge for their products and how they should market them. So these are issues that have to be looked at with some caution. I would just point out that even within the Australian Parliament already there are notes of caution about how realistic it is for Governments to try to regulate and tell private businesses how they should sell their products, and for what price. It is something that you would have to approach very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022babe6ac7d6fe4961842d5eb60f2f9b46\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Given that it is such a large cost for Kiwi businesses and Kiwi consumers, would the Minister support a Commerce Committee inquiry into inflated IT prices for Kiwi consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fb59f14caa742c08842adb430309578\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is obviously a matter for the committee to work through and not one that I would want to prejudge. But I imagine the committee would want to carefully consider whether a New Zealand inquiry replicating the Australian one would add further to the debate. But if it felt that that was necessary, I am sure it is something that it will work through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0dec32850de4f489bb8828fe9fa6234\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter from myself to the Commerce Committee requesting such an inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f5084432d83452d8a378a8c8e4489e4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. If any members are interested in that I am sure they can get hold of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d3a65c253b24acdb74a2de8c36d0ba9\u0022\u003EChildren\u2019s Action Plan\u2014Minimum Screening and Vetting Standards\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u00227c2ce006dab64870869cd3af2a4403ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c2ce006dab64870869cd3af2a4403ef\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: How will the Children\u2019s Action Plan better protect children through greater screening and vetting standards for those working with children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002228eea578b1d34bcaa587e2dee623fbea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228eea578b1d34bcaa587e2dee623fbea\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Outstanding\u2014outstanding question. Legislation will be introduced in the next month to implement minimum screening and vetting standards for those people who are working with children. This process will be more comprehensive than the current police check that some do and others do not. It will include specific interview techniques, thorough referencing, police record checks, as well as looking into the history and behaviour of every one of those individuals. It will also mean checking with former employers and wider community members about any concerns relating to the children that may have been raised during that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213fb96160e8c4e54bed19643b79adc5d\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Whom will these new mandatory standards apply to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afb0c6a271014d75bb791dca2e03fdc6\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: This will be mandatory for all Government agencies and Government-funded organisations working with children, but voluntary for community organisations. There are hundreds of thousands of people in that children\u2019s workforce. We estimate all up that it is more than 370,000 people. In the core workforce we are talking about paediatricians, Child, Youth and Family social workers, and teachers. The wider workforce would mean non-teaching staff such as library reading-group leaders, for example, or Work and Income case managers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc009b818cf94c4689b8df148ca1e648\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: How will these new restrictions keep dangerous, violent, and abusive people away from children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220044f29094954c00bcea90e165ad1181\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Alongside the new screening and vetting there will also be new restrictions on whom they are allowed to employ. For example, there will be restrictions meaning that they cannot employ people who have serious convictions such as murder, manslaughter, sexual violation, assault on a child, and sexual conduct with young people. We simply have to protect our vulnerable children. For those who choose to ignore that restriction there will be heavy fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b22ce75fb96a4fc5a4bc6520bff5e928\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Will charter schools be compelled, or will they just be expected to vet staff under her new vetting and screening requirements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d34309ea17e4d968c0ab9f810b8f88c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: They will be included in the law and they will be expected to and compelled, if that is the word the member chooses to use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231e9311d4a844b2081aa6627d84af878\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If I could have the Minister, perhaps, clarify. I asked whether or not it was mandatory, compelled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791685d7a0c44ef58c5434453c51b631\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The question was very clearly addressed for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bffb9cd1aa54083913991d8931906cf\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Will it be mandatory for charter schools to vet and screen their staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022015be6e10f66409cb6e610afeff3f0f2\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I would say that, actually, if the member had answered my letter of 2 months ago, where I offered to her to have a briefing on this, then she would have the answer. But since she chose not to get involved, yes, it will be mandatory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223205b519a25f4f1fab127d85f77f4486\u0022\u003ESuperannuation\u2014Commentary on Flexi Super Scheme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0a2f48991ba4a728d4b44e7b73e2fd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0a2f48991ba4a728d4b44e7b73e2fd0\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002252630715f681482db304cff34a1a1e67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252630715f681482db304cff34a1a1e67\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b41a698d84fa4c8e98d9cff854015d58\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Will he be using Peter Dunne\u2019s Flexi Super scheme to cut superannuation taken before 65 as an excuse to break his election pledge that \u201CI will resign as Prime Minister and from Parliament if I cut super\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd5e54c0ae2425e810e5aeecf976c8a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure whether the member understands the principle behind Flexi Super, but if that policy was to be implemented, if any New Zealander wanted to continue to take their full New Zealand superannuation at the age of 65, that would be available to them. In my book that does not break any promises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c253b01eb784446cb465fc722f91e221\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Grey Power president Roy Reid, who slammed the proposal as a cruel poverty trap, and that it is \u201C\u2026 one of the more cynical, cruel and dangerous bits of stupidity I have heard in a very long time.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34b2cdb6bc14f148108311145ef508a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think Roy was confused. He was clearly reading the New Zealand First manifesto.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc73aff569884b4b8628c747e598a10c\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter from Grey Power on what it costs today for elderly people to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce7290e149d542d484f1cfd16b978745\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that letter from Grey Power. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df27b45caf8426195b7f02942969d56\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document from the Parliamentary Library based on a minimum income for healthy-living, older New Zealanders ageing in society\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239495f0f488d4bb1ad9165d92d5a5e8c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If it is a document prepared by the Parliamentary Library, it is available to any member who wants it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e7a84224cb4c6685c74ebe275aac8d\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a document prepared by the Parliamentary Library, based on that document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f48bd26f084533ab1bb6c80dc93d90\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it prepared specifically for the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d79a982e2f5417080d433edd92ec3ff\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: It is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c73a5c5b2d6542529f2d3a934c5be1ac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On that basis I will put the leave. That is the easiest way to solve it. Leave is sought to table a document prepared by the Parliamentary Library specifically for Denis O\u2019Rourke. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255d7423d8f64fa1977a836f6f4a80c8\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with retirement policy director Michael Littlewood, who said: \u201CThose at the bottom end will not have the information they will need to make informed decisions and will have fewer financial choices. Having made their decisions, they will be stuck with them until they die.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e5184ea1ad41f485acd36de11c4e32\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, firstly, let me just remind the member that it is a discussion document, so let us see what happens from there. But I do agree with one thing Mr Littlewood said, and that is that, yes, if they elect to take their New Zealand superannuation earlier at a lower rate, they would be stuck with that for the rest of their life. That is a decision that they would be making. But if one was just to take a 2-second step back and look at the merits of this type of policy, what it would show is that there is quite a bit of merit, as opposed to the crazy policy that the Labour Party is proposing, which is to raise the age of superannuation to every New Zealander by 2 years. The reason for that is that it may well be that someone who is in a very physical job actually cannot easily continue to work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919c40c62b3a41b6a07ef06c39eda125\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Far-sighted leadership!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3dcdfd5310947e29d52b163cf008493\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it would be really interesting whether, when David Cunliffe becomes the leader\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fadb91a902fd46f69c7d8895c4c4655c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The Prime Minister has given quite a long and lengthy answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4290fd02b74133b82da5faa236c5d5\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with retirement policy director Susan St John that the Flexi Super scheme could turn out to be a very expensive one for the taxpayer because many low-income people attracted to the option to retire at 60 on significantly lower rates would inevitably need social welfare top-ups; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280b7dfcb12d54ff3b47a75a33b77479f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, firstly, they would not have to retire. People who take New Zealand superannuation today do not retire, so it would be entirely up to them. Yes, of course they are all the sorts of things that have to be considered, but I would have thought that a lot of New Zealanders\u2014some of them, as I say, who are in physical jobs\u2014do not necessarily want to work until they are 65, because their body is breaking down, and it is more challenging for them to do so. Whereas there are many other people who are, for instance, not doing a hell of a lot. Say, for instance, they are in the New Zealand First caucus\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022569035931c514952a2b953052e895f7e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! And now that answer is quite sufficient, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beea59c358fc4eddb47a5d3b6573f8d6\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Given that I would much rather be in the New Zealand First caucus than the National one, I ask, does he recognise that the Dunne scheme amounts to a tax dodge to favour high-income earners, who do not need superannuation payments while still working and who are being taxed at a higher rate, and who will wait until they are not earning before taking more superannuation and paying less tax on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e339cec8f6474fb63d498cbf048d26\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I do not want to get terribly personal, but I do not know whether he has noticed that his leader is 68. He will actually be 70 at the next election\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022351f1eecc0874a129576c51346a238f8\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ee3757d1644be19b84ff6400801f3f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have a point of order and I will hear it in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175ddfd50ef94867b34d5fe153b46832\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I would appreciate the Prime Minister answering the question, rather than reflecting on the ages of people for whom he has no prime\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b943b5faa0d444d99c91da00200fc864\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I invite the member to look at Hansard at the end of question time. He asked whether the Prime Minister recognised a tax scheme, and the Prime Minister started his answer by saying that, no, he does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295259ca6eeec4407b899052f01ebb98c\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What you have just said does not deal with the point of order that I raised. The point of order that I raised was that the Prime Minister has no prime ministerial responsibility for the age of any person in this Parliament, and I request that he specifically answer the question that I actually asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad08631d2fa47518a1adc45406ac322\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Two points on that. I have already ruled that the Prime Minister did specifically answer the question that was raised. With regard to the second point, I invite the member to have a look at the way he asked the supplementary question. He talked about the privilege of being in the New Zealand First caucus, rather than in a National caucus, as he prefaced his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022410cc1312c9e4d468ce03dec2f3a0d91\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would challenge that ruling, because the point that Mr O\u2019Rourke made was in response to a quip by the Prime Minister\u2014and it was not offensive, but, you know, it deserved a response. It deserved a response. It did not justify the later reference that Mr O\u2019Rourke complained about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2d13209da44962b08c48eb7bb18ca1\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as someone who certainly does not want to prolong proceedings here today, I do think it worth noting that in the Prime Minister\u2019s answer he simply pointed out a perfect example of the sort of dodgy tax behaviour that Mr O\u2019Rourke was alleging some pensioners might engage in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6e1e1db20e948ef8a0d3beb8fb3ec23\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257ed5b06a6ab46fdb6f210074ed11510\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I will hear from Tracey Martin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf2504a0d9b342ceb56f70ce09f20b4c\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that we do not bring other members of this House into disrepute in any way, and I would suggest that Mr Brownlee\u2019s suggestion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf5415a462f471fa779db9f172025b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! To mention a person\u2019s age does not bring that person into disrepute, in my opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022339cf6c8f00740719aff3bb3c9d13c7c\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d15d41914cd84a288a43fa925eabfebe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the final point of order\u2014let us hope that it is a serious one\u2014from Denis O\u2019Rourke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6d0850ec1f493fb9c6bba7bef0791e\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: It is a serious one. If the Prime Minister cannot answer the question, why does he not just say so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ed0e62e34304cd5b0645c9efb03e562\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is the sort of behaviour that will have the member not remaining in the House. I said to the member\u2014and I invited the member to look at Hansard\u2014that the Prime Minister did answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203dd0f06fd40482296312fed13601f42\u0022\u003EPatents Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022065e05f0d76d44fa806e729002f8e810\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000576\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203bf90143ca14d119e6b3ff1d76cc9b1\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00220a117c70b0e5406d93688a50f1987db6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a117c70b0e5406d93688a50f1987db6\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Before the lunch break I was talking about the new clause that the Commerce Committee added to the \u201CPurposes\u201D clause of the Patents Bill, which is around getting the balance right between the rights of the patent holder, and the person who invented a particular item to which a patent applies, and the interests of the well-being of the wider society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think there are two aspects to this. One is the fact that if we clamp down too tightly with patent law that is too restrictive, that stifles innovation. A very important aspect of innovation is building on previous ideas\u2014taking an idea that someone else has had and adding something new to it. If patent law is too restrictive, then it is not possible for that type of innovation to be carried out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EBut there is also the societal good side, and I think that Pharmac is a particular example of this. Pharmac makes use of the fact that medicines come off patent after 20 years, and can therefore provide cheaper access to medicines than is otherwise possible whilst medicines remain on patent. It is important that drug companies are able to patent medicines and reap the rewards from the research and development that they have carried out and the invention of that new medicine, or the discovery of the ability that a particular product has as a medicinal property. But after a period of time, when they have justifiably held a monopoly on the rights to such a product, it is important that they are opened up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThere is a debate going on internationally about how long medicines should stay on patent, and I know that New Zealand is under pressure from a number of different organisations and from people located in a number of different countries to change our patent law in a way that would keep medicines on patent for a lot longer. The purpose of this bill speaks to that. It speaks about the balance that has to be struck between the rights of the patent holder and wider society, and I think that we have a good balance in New Zealand between the rights of the holder of patents of pharmaceuticals and the well-being of wider society. I think New Zealand should be firm on its stance in holding to that 20-year period, because, as this bill says, that is a fine balance that must be struck carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022570a113b35244b9a844fc5088c9424d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022570a113b35244b9a844fc5088c9424d7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Clare\u2014no, I am sorry, that member has had her four calls. I call Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002266704992a0a645eb84cfac6cac024f7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266704992a0a645eb84cfac6cac024f7f\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I will have a go. I am very happy to take a call on Part 1 of the Patents Bill, and I am sure that Mr Henare, who seems to be so amused over there, is just preparing his thoughts on what he wants to say on the Patents Bill, because, after all, it was a Labour bill that has been sitting on the Order Paper now for 5 years, due to the inefficiency of this Government. So completely hopeless is the Government that, after 5 years of being in Government, it has suddenly decided that it needs to progress this bill under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270aa5b477da844d490166493cbcbba39\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Do you support this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb0eac2eb244dacb0f97c449152b6f2\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is 5 years since the Labour Government introduced this, possibly longer, and then, finally, this Government brings it forward and allows it to be introduced. Mr Henare asks me whether the Labour Party supports this bill\u2014yes, yes. The Labour Party does support the bill. The Labour Party does support the bill\u2014it is actually a very important issue. It is a very important issue. It is a very thick bill. The debate on this, I am sure, is going to go on for quite some time, with all of the significant amount of content that there is here in the Patents Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at what the purposes of this bill are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f596029a2b9740e9bae73993528fcaad\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: OK, you go and have a look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022106dcd2a80124b7989365b82b7d8d5bf\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We turn now to the \u201CPurposes\u201D clause, for Mr Henare\u2019s benefit. That would be clause 3. It states: \u201CThe purposes of this Act are to\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae31c26810f456b87be5364327b4fef\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s it say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5026048c17443288dbc80d670b797dc\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say? I am happy to enlighten the member. I am very happy to enlighten the member. I am sure that I can read it to him faster than he can read it for himself. So \u201CThe purposes of this Act are to\u2014(aa) provide an efficient and effective patent system\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc92221dd53a436cb7212674516db830\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know about that. Is that because I\u2019m a M\u0101ori\u2014or what? Is that because I\u2019m older than you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405fb9c0f74247188e07d09253853e52\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98c18c316b24e58b9f5247799e6beb7\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad2beb9c4e2744c38f0ea7dfc2643484\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2e2c10517c249a2bf6577cfabe1444f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, you did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db01320eaed447dfb92dda78e7c58b75\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I was busy talking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c2f76b4db654bf783a697d36e7c7b91\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, you did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286007e0ee730433baf2d1466b9080128\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I was too busy talking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd8dfff0469143cc8cfaf31ac8081d44\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d34315c27e3c4311ab3eeb454ff141b3\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, I did not. Look, he is welcome to repeat himself. I know he is very familiar with repeating himself. He is welcome to do so. So one of the purposes of the Patents Bill in clause 3(aa) is to \u201Cprovide an efficient and effective patent system that\u2014(i) promotes innovation and economic growth while providing an appropriate balance between the interests of inventors and patent owners and the interests of society as a whole;\u201D. That is incredibly important. It is a very important balancing act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b2af8d995446e089f1518647913a4a\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Wow! The man can read! The boy can read!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204c62a7e51724ca68d93e129966ef9fc\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is an important balancing act\u2014for Mr Henare. I know that balancing is something that he has a great deal of difficulty\u2014very great deal of difficulty\u2014with these days. The purpose is also to comply \u201Cwith New Zealand\u2019s international obligations;\u201D. Well, that is not something that Mr Henare is interested in at all\u2014complying with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations\u2014but that is something that I think is important. If we move to paragraph (a) within the \u201CPurposes\u201D clause of the bill, it is about ensuring \u201Cthat a patent is granted for an invention only in appropriate circumstances by\u2014(i) establishing appropriate criteria for the granting of a patent; and (ii) providing for procedures that allow the validity of a patent to be tested;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022792ab1a1fe4941389469c18047f89600\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: So much for the whip protecting the leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d5e0940f174622bb1cc948e661c0a3\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254d25a26492a4337a7c5f0696bbc0f12\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: So much for the whip protecting the leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc02efbb5b7a466fb7498cff6dbb41f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on, that is not relevant to this debate. That is not relevant to this debate. I tell you what. Mr Henare should be patented because he is clearly one of a kind. He is clearly one of a kind. I do not think I have ever found a member quite like Mr Henare in this Chamber. We should be quite grateful for that. We should patent Mr Henare and then make sure that there is a clear restriction that no more are to be produced\u2014that no more are to be produced after that particular point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAnyway, we are getting into the further detail of the Patents Bill. This bill, as I mentioned, of course, is a bill that was introduced by Labour. We will support it, unless our amendment is voted down, because it can be added to the long list of improvements to the business and regulatory environment that were made by the previous Labour Government. Of course, we are actually interested in improving the business regulatory environment, unlike this Government here. It talked a lot about cutting red tape. Actually, the only red tape it is interested in cutting is the stuff that its mates want to get rid of; it is not actually interested in protecting consumers and protecting New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe bill attempts to balance the interests of the innovators, who should be entitled to make a profit from their inventions\u2014I think that is quite important\u2014but also we have to look at the interests of society as a whole. I think there is a general view that the existing patent law is too generous for those people who are seeking access to patents, and too many corporations end up getting monopoly rights. So, in a way, I am surprised that the National Government is progressing this legislation, because, of course, we know that this Government\u2019s priority is the top 10 percent\u2014the people who are more likely to be able to access the patent rights\u2014rather than the rest of society. I am pleased, and I want to congratulate the Government. It is actually taking a very positive step now in making sure that society\u2019s interests are balanced against the interests of those who might be able to access the monopoly rights to patent. So, overall, I think this bill has a lot of merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbe66b0bc84145b4b1328acb76e558f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbe66b0bc84145b4b1328acb76e558f9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to start off by absolutely disagreeing with my colleague the chief whip, Chris Hipkins. I know that will not do me much good, but if he had looked carefully at this Patents Bill, especially clause 10, he would know that Tau Henare is not patentable, because to be patentable you have got to be useful. You have got to be useful. Clause 10 states: \u201CAn invention, so far as claimed in a claim, is \u2018useful\u2019 if the invention has a specific, credible, and substantial utility.\u201D And any suggestion that Tau Henare has a specific, a credible, or a substantial utility can only be a lie\u2014can only be a lie\u2014and therefore there is no question that Tau Henare is patentable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think it is also worth having a good look at clause 9 of the bill, \u201CDisclosure to be disregarded in certain circumstances\u201D. I think this is something that Mr Henare could have a good look at, because it is an area that he would be particularly interested in. What it does is go to things being obtained unlawfully or in breach of confidence. I invite Mr Henare to consider his relationship with his leader and matters of confidence\u2014and matters of confidence. I think it is fair to say that members on this side of the Chamber had a lot more confidence in him when he was attempting to elevate his status than the Prime Minister did, and I want to just thank the Hon Tau Henare for the disclosures that he made in that particular area\u2014the disclosures that he made to the House and the disclosures that he made to the country about his availability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db1475f8fff464bb2e38718b5bc1df1\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s gone quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f159d427a14288b4f68e518fdcadb4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he has gone quiet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am going to accept that it has been a long time since I had a look at this bill. I think that the last time I had a detailed look at it Simon Power was the Minister of Commerce. I note that this lazy Minister of Commerce has not progressed it at all. In fact, he has not progressed it far enough even to put his own name on the bill. Craig Foss has got his name on the Order Paper, but he has not worked hard enough on this bill, has not made enough progress on the bill, and has not made a proper contribution even to the extent that when one goes to the title page of the bill. We see that it is still in the name of the Hon Simon Power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c91f5dc6a42b4ad0ad6f92fc4a70d536\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: On the cover it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243fa16c4c44e45169a2b4e74bcca6f5c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it is not on the front. I am working by the report-back copy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do want to say thank you to the Minister, though, on the question of the information and communications technology programming issues around patents\u2014the fact that in the end he got to the right decision. I think it is fair to say that as someone who has been involved in both patents and, earlier, in the copyright area, mine was one of the in-boxes that tended to act as a magnet to the objections when the Minister attempted to overturn the decisions of the Commerce Committee, and I do want to say that I think that the select committee worked hard on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think it is also fair to say that the select committee was much less influenced by overseas information and communications technology companies than were the Minister and a number of the officials. Without making any specific comment, I think we do need to watch very, very carefully the influence of the major information and communications technology companies in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to the contribution of the Hon Maurice Williamson in this area, because I know that he is someone who has quite a good knowledge in this area. He did some programs himself, which probably had copyright on them. They involved the National Party\u2019s canvassing system. Unfortunately, he left them in George Hawkins\u2019 office at one stage, I think, along with a floppy disk that had a letter to the transport department asking to be let off a fine for speeding in a period before he was a Minister. So I think it is fair to say that these things are relatively easily discoverable, especially if people are careless and leave their floppy disks down the back of the couch as the Hon Maurice Williamson did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis is getting towards being a good bill. There are some important Supplementary Order Papers. There are a couple that the Labour Party will not support. I do want to indicate that I am slightly surprised with one of the later Green Supplementary Order Papers in that it does not appear to be drafted in a way that addresses the interpretation section of the bill. Although Supplementary Order Paper 348 is attempting to take the \u201Cadvisory\u201D out of \u201CM\u0101ori advisory committee\u201D, the Supplementary Order Paper is slightly sloppily drafted in that it does not address Part 1 in the way that it probably should if it was carefully drafted and if there had been consultation on it. I am not saying that if there had been consultation on it we would have supported it. Probably we would not\u2014giving M\u0101ori a veto over patents is something we are not up to yet. Listening, hearing, taking advice is important, but I think taking the word \u201Cadvisory\u201D out of the \u201CM\u0101ori advisory committee\u201D\u2014I am going to be interested to see how the Hon Tau Henare votes on that particular amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe94f1179e894d8c8bda24cb29c08706\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll be voting with the Government, brother, just like you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cffd64d5f7c4d85b6a4f6a19b70aeec\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: He is going to be on my side again. On that note, I will leave it to my colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002280d43d294d7d4c6fa22bc1966b251395\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280d43d294d7d4c6fa22bc1966b251395\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E This bill, the Patents Bill, as my colleague Chris Hipkins has said, was introduced into this Parliament quite some time ago\u2014on 9 July 2008, in fact when the Hon Judith Tizard\u2019s name was on the bill as Associate Minister of Commerce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2bc923b34da4705b6d588610bf0eefd\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022054c1560c339480ab4873e75b3365fb9\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, I was the Minister of Commerce at the time. When the bill was referred to the Commerce Committee, though, I was no longer the Minister of Commerce. I was, in fact, the chair of the select committee. I will take all of those encouraging words that I just heard from the Hon Trevor Mallard to be an endorsement of my chairmanship of that particular committee, and I want in turn to acknowledge Clare Curran, who actually acted as a very strong liaison person for a range of interests that were needing to be heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that when the original set of submissions was heard on the bill, we were left with the position\u2014and we had a very good meeting with Simon Power, who was the Minister at the time, which basically gave us comfort that the position that we would ultimately adopt would be one that would be acceptable to the Government. He was very accepting of the fact that we were engaging, quite appropriately, with the wide range of interests that were expressing quite strong views on both sides of the argument. I think we came to a very good position, and we did so in a very robust way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt was of great disappointment, I think to both Clare and me, that we ended up in a situation where a new Minister, a fresh Minister having another look at the legislation, decided to overturn all of that good work and thereby create exactly the same environment that we had confronted when we heard the submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to comment on this because I am not going to be here for very much longer, so it is an opportunity just to say that when I was a Minister I found that allowing the select committee to have the leeway to work closely with officials and to even meet off-line with people who had very strong interests actually enabled people to reach sensible conclusions. Sometimes there is no need to stick to a formatted process just because that is the way things are always done. Sometimes things get missed in the to-ing and fro-ing, and sometimes it is actually better to get people to go off-line and have these conversations, and to show a bit of trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that trust was certainly experienced with Simon Power as the Minister. I felt as the Minister that I had that relationship with him, and then afterwards as the select committee chair, again there very much was flexibility from that particular Minister to enable the officials to also go off-line and to have conversations with the people who were making submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI really want to kind of endorse the process and invite Parliament to think very carefully, because I notice that we have had a letter for an update of our Standing Orders. In fact, it may be worthwhile having a look at that, because at a select committee hearing, during the select committee process, you cannot provide briefings to people who are not members of the committee. Well, you can to other MPs, but you cannot provide briefings outside unless there is a report to the House, and then that enables information to be made publicly available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that some of those rules could actually be looked at, if it was done by agreement. It seems to me that the Standing Orders of Parliament would be improved if, in fact, our select committees were able to facilitate that level of engagement with the officials and the protagonists. This is in relation to this one clause that is in Part 1. It is absolutely related to that because Supplementary Order Paper 120, which brings in the definition of a computer program, amends clause 10, which is in Part 1. That is why I think that it is absolutely critical, because what we ended up seeing was that the Minister himself obviously went off-line, in a process as a new Minister, and then came back with what was, in fact, an unacceptable option, without discussing it with the members of the select committee who had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa8070b8433b4837bb0b09d3f6964e12\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Which Minister was this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292db61fd21f243a8ba336ddcf2397f09\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was the Minister of Commerce, who is in the chair now. I do not know why that happened, but putting that particular clause out into the public arena, on a Supplementary Order Paper, caused a furore, because there really had been an acceptance that we had reached a good decision, we had used a good process to get there, and the select committee had actually contributed, I think, very positively to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think what the Minister has, unfortunately, done by going down this pathway\u2014and it actually picks up on what Trevor Mallard was saying before about the timetable and about how he had not seen this particular piece of legislation since it first had Simon Power\u2019s name on it. In actual fact, this could have been dealt with a lot sooner, and the legislation could have been passed and in place prior to the 2011 general election. I think it would have been incredibly helpful to have had that matter resolved, although, admittedly, he did not take over that role until after the 2011 election. But here we are in 2013, and we have wasted literally 2 years of our time generally to update patent law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe legislation itself obviously has lots of different provisions within it, but because this particular provision is so important for where we get to in terms of the IT sector and the definition that the legislation will now contain\u2014and I have got so many Supplementary Order Papers here that I am just trying to find exactly the correct one that has the new wording in it, which is that \u201C(1) A computer program is not an invention for the purposes of this Act. (2) Subsection (1) prevents anything from being an invention for the purposes of this Act only to the extent that a patent or an application relates to a computer program as such.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E The wording \u201Cas such\u201D is still there, which is not as helpful as it could have been, but it is better than the previous wording. The one example that we kept coming back to at the Commerce Committee was what we called the \u201CFisher and Paykel example\u201D, where the particular embedded software within the machine itself is not a computer program in its own\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e876f37f6ea45e1b00831dfdc9cae14\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: Yes it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac47a82257f4595b98fba3f37772f48\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is not a computer program, but the purpose of patenting it is for the type of washing machine that it is, rather than the software process per se. I suppose that means \u201Cas such\u201D, does it not? What it does mean is that the mere execution of a method within a computer does not allow the method to be patented, and I think that is the core difference in respect of the wording that has finally been agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo I think that we are all on the same page. This is essentially what the select committee agreed to do, with slightly different wording, and we could have avoided the significant level of delay that has been incurred if we had been able to get together and probably resolve these issues before it came out the way that it did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think it is kind of a warning to others who are in this situation: when there are competing interests, then I think trusting the select committee to play a role in terms of seeking to broker a compromise is actually not a bad thing to do. But then when you have trusted it to do that, please let that continue and do not try to overrule it without going back to the people who brokered that compromise. Sometimes legislation will be compromised if you have really strong competing views. Sometimes there is a way through the issue, as I think we found in this particular case. We were all on the same page, and it would have been helpful if the Minister had decided to join us there much earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a88e4e428d214a1682fa61d4013f12b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a88e4e428d214a1682fa61d4013f12b0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will make a brief contribution to this part of the debate. I think, as the Minister of Commerce and most in this Committee will understand, patent rights involve a trade-off that is thought to be in society\u2019s interests. If we enable the people who make discoveries and go to the trouble of investing in the research that leads to discoveries and we allow them a reward from their efforts, then society is better off because people will go to the effort of making those discoveries. If there was no protection of the discoveries they make that have utility, and if there was no protection for them for the economic benefits that flow from those discoveries, they would not do the research in the first place, and, as a consequence, society would be poorer for it. We would have fewer medicines and we would have fewer discoveries in engineering across society. We would be poorer in a wealth sense, we would be in poorer health, and we would have worse environmental outcomes were it not for those discoveries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis tension between the monopoly rights that you confer upon a patent holder to enable them to get the fruits of their labour, rather than having them being ripped off by someone who has not put the time and investment into the discovery, immediately upon that discovery becoming public is dealt with in a public policy sense by limiting both what it is that you can patent and the term of the monopoly right that flows from the patent. This legislation, the Patents Bill, attempts to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhere you stand on how broad patents should be, or on how broad what should be able to be patented should be and the period for which patent protection should exist, seems to depend in part from the point of view of some countries on what is in their economic interests. Countries that end up owning a disproportionate share of the world\u2019s intellectual property rights as protected by patents seem to think that, from an economic sovereignty point of view, that justifies their trying to push the boundaries of what can be protected and how long it can be protected for. We see that, and we perhaps will see that, playing out in the Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations that are under way. In respect of that, I would suggest that even those who have lots of intellectual property should be hesitant to extend protections too far, because it stymies innovation even in their own countries. If you extend patent rights too far\u2014and I am coming to how this is relevant in respect of the definition of computer programs and of what can or cannot be programmed in respect of computer programs, or, indeed, in respect of DNA code\u2014you stop other people innovating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns that the New Zealand computer industry has, both in terms of patent law and copyright law, is that the New Zealand Government will go too far in adopting what countries like the United States want, to which the Australians actually agreed in their free-trade agreement with the Americans, notwithstanding their Treasury advice that it came at significant economic cost to the Australian economy. If you go too far that way, you actually block innovation in your own country, because the computer programmers who might want to design or write a software solution\u2014for example, in medical technologies, which New Zealand is very strong in\u2014could be blocked from doing so because their freedom to operate is effectively prevented by the terms of patent law protecting prior inventions that have been allowed to be patented under patent law. So if you push it too far, that is the consequence, and then the societal outcome of that is that you actually have less innovation, which runs in the opposite way of what the underlying intention of patent law is. This is the balance we are trying to strike. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn my opinion, we always need to be very wary about those who claim extensions to patent rights, because their attempts to extend the terms of their monopoly rights is often motivated by their financial interests, rather than by the societal need for more knowledge, which should be what drives patent law. So it is with that somewhat long and complicated\u2014necessarily so, I think\u2014description of what it is that underlies the principle we should be judging this amendment to insert proposed clause 10A as to whether it gets the balance right. As the Hon Lianne Dalziel has said, it tries to say that where you have some computer software that is intrinsic to the working of a mechanical device, then the fact that the mechanical device includes some software does not stop it being patented. Yes, I agree with that. But if you go so far as to say that source code can be protected by way of patent\u2014this is not copyright; this is patent\u2014then you can go too far, because you can block other people from innovating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESimilarly, in respect of some of the lines that we have to draw round DNA related - technologies, there was a time in the United States when you could patent a string of DNA that had been decoded. There was no invention in that step. There was nothing that should have been patentable in there. It was essentially a list, using a technology that might in itself have been patentable. The patentable technology that allows you to read the list might very well be properly patentable, but the list that you read in DNA as a consequence, and other DNA when you are reading that, should not be patentable. That particular branch of the law was closed off even in the United States, when it realised the folly of its way and cut back on patent rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat is an example of why you need to be very careful about not extending the scope of patents in a way that does not meet the underlying purpose. The underlying purpose is to stimulate investment in the research and development that increases the sum of knowledge in society in a way that would not otherwise occur, so justifying the time-limited monopoly rights that are conferred, because, as a society, we are better off. I would like the Minister to explain, on the basis of that principle, how he has arrived at this amendment that he proposes to insert clause 10A in respect of computer programs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 237 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in his name to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299127a586fcb467a94e46899a5039bbc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000648\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 103, Noes 18.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000649\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222055e69e5ebe4a34bb36e2e6c4c9841c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000650\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 348 in the name of Metiria Turei to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a3c5fadd269241dd9d84bfd63b36f5a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000651\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00228fd78b6b70ee465e9711acbcb0c7d958\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fd78b6b70ee465e9711acbcb0c7d958\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would just seek your advice as to why my amendment to Part 6 of the bill was put during the vote on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221af1a2f73b794fd598f36fe9a4c792c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221af1a2f73b794fd598f36fe9a4c792c5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just have to seek some clarification. The answer is that it has amendments to clauses 4 and 6, which form part of Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022bff86012d1ea4ccb99b7f8aca4108895\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bff86012d1ea4ccb99b7f8aca4108895\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Does that mean that the amendments to clauses two hundred and something\u2014I cannot recall the exact numbers now\u2014will be put during the vote on Part 6?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226cf4094d0ab743979ae272f72f780a0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cf4094d0ab743979ae272f72f780a0c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002243fec8b8028948a5897206299468f18f\u0022\u003EPart 2  Patentable inventions and patent rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002236b46e70e49646979516ebc7e0c52eae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b46e70e49646979516ebc7e0c52eae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address, respectfully, Steffan Browning\u2019s proposed amendment to clause 15 of the Patents Bill in Supplementary Order Paper 124 and explain why it is that the Labour Party will not be favouring that amendment. Thank you for consulting us about it and the way in which you have gone about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note or the letter that came with the Supplementary Order Paper said that one of the things that the amendment intends to do is to stop people\u2014in its current form, it says it encourages biopiracy of indigenous resources. I understand the member\u2019s concern. There have been some quite, I suppose, famous cases around the world that have been referred to. One relates to the scientific properties of the Neem tree, which is an Indian tree, as I understand it. Have I got that right? Yes, it is an Indian tree, the extracts of which have long been used as a control of insects and other fungal infections in trees. There were patents taken out that were then said to have been used to stop the traditional uses of the Neem tree, despite the fact that that had been a long-standing practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESecondly, there were assertions\u2014and I do not understand enough to know whether all of these assertions were right\u2014that it seemed unfair that the insecticidal and fungicide effects of Neem tree extracts could be commercially taken by someone who claims that they have discovered the chemical reason that that is occurring in a way that prevented other people from doing it, despite the fact that they had always done it. I agree that that seemed unfair. If that was properly described, I have problems with that. But that does not mean to say that I think that this amendment can be supported, because what this says is that you will not be able to patent organisms, including plant varieties and traits in organisms, and that is the issue that I want to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe know that we have a lot of challenges environmentally in the world. One of the challenges that we have is that the form of energy that we use at the moment produces carbon emissions that are put into the atmosphere. We know that in order to reduce emissions, we need to do lots of things. One of the things that we may need to do is to bring forward scientific research into organisms that help prevent that from occurring, or enable other substitutionary forms of evidence that are not high in greenhouse gas emissions. For example, the conversion of plant material into biofuels may require, or may be advantaged by, the use of bacteria or other organisms that are discovered in volcanic vents deep at sea. These thermophiles, as I think they are called, are organisms that can survive very high temperatures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think there is a proper question to be asked, or to be asked by those who are researching in favour of making those discoveries, as to whether what they are discovering is something that is novel, that is of utility, and that was not known previously in a way that should be patentable. I find it hard to see a distinction\u2014a hard distinction\u2014drawn in respect of that sort of discovery that would mean that it should not be patentable, and I think that the societal disbenefit of preventing patents in those areas would be that we do not have discoveries that help us overcome some of these other planetary challenges that we face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo I think that if I properly understand that\u2014and it is possible that my understanding is wrong; if it is, I invite Mr Browning to point it out. I am not here saying whether those discoveries should be made through, or variations in the organisms should be\u2014I do not think this is, through this bill, a debate about genetic modification or more traditional technologies. I think the same principle applies to both here, which is not to advocate for genetic modification; it is just to say that the same principle applies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIf I give another example, the technology that is being pursued by LanzaTech is taking the flue stream gases of steel mills that are carbon monoxide, I understand, rather than carbon dioxide, and using a process to convert that carbon monoxide into ethanol, which is a fuel that can then be used as a substitute for fossil fuels. Overall, the environmental impact of steel production is reduced as a consequence. My understanding is that the process does involve organisms that are going to be modified through technology in order to make them more efficient so that that becomes a viable technology. LanzaTech could not do that and could not raise the money to make that advance in science if it were not for the protection that it gets through patents. My understanding of this amendment proposed by Steffan Browning is that if it passed, it could prevent that patent from being granted, which would then cut off the money for LanzaTech\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e873d1050447459696470e751ce3163f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ad3409b688d41919944e275c590a010\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it would not cut off the money for LanzaTech? I think it probably would. If it could not get an economic return for its investment, it would be less likely to make an investment in it. For those reasons, based on our current understanding of this amendment, the Labour Party will not be supporting that Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u0022166058320b3d4918942bacfaf941a41f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022166058320b3d4918942bacfaf941a41f\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will address that aspect straight away in this contribution on the Patents Bill. In terms of biofuels, bacteria and other organisms certainly are intended to be used by some. They will be being used. Whether they need to be modified and whether they need patenting is a whole different matter. We are very, very keen on public-good science, and not everything should be tied up in commercial entities or operations. I can think back to when we had the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and our Crown research institutions, which were seriously about public-good science and were very collaborative. Clearly, we are working as a country to try to get some sense of that back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThis need, it seems, to have everything put into a commercial context is very unfortunate\u2014the novel and the utility. It should still be part of public-good science, and we have to be careful because this suggestion that there is a suppression on innovation by stopping organisms or traits of organisms from being patented is misleading. It is the same with ethanol from methanol conversions, and should LanzaTech be the only one going down that path when it is such an international need, as we acknowledge that we need to look at other forms of energy, then that is a very, very sad day. We have institutions and we have science in this country that does not need to be bound to somebody who ultimately would get a patent and then monopolise that. If it is so important\u2014and it is\u2014to work around the area of biofuels, it should not be able to be monopolised or controlled by a single corporate or owner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESo I have put forward Supplementary Order Paper 124 on this crucial area of making sure that companies cannot patent life, nor certain elements of life, because it goes right back to public expectations. That includes genes and proteins that exist in nature. We accept that patents are a statutory right. They were created hundreds of years ago for good purpose, but that was around things, not life. Patents should not be permitted over things that are fundamentally part of the natural world. No one has invented life or the elements of life, so it follows that no one should be entitled to a patent in New Zealand over life\u2014in fact, anywhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESome of this comes back to some early decisions\u2014I say \u201Cearly\u201D, but not hundreds of years ago. It was really in 1980 when life first got patented. It is a case known as Diamond v Chakrabarty and it concerns a decision about a bacterium. Chakrabarty had isolated a particular bacterium. Even then, he was able to get the patent, but he admitted that he simply shuffled genes about. He said he changed bacteria that already existed. He did not create a new form of life; he merely intervened in the normal processes by which strains of bacteria exchange genetic information. Genetic modification, of course, is an extension of that. It goes much further. That same genetic modification has caused the monopolisation of major parts of the global food supply. So if you think of soy, corn, and canola, they are some real fundamentals in terms of the international food supply, and they are monopolised and they are controlled because there are patents on some aspects of the technology behind them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe cannot afford, intentionally or not, to allow for the patenting of life forms or the elements of life that exist in nature. A colleague over here was right in saying that we believe it will encourage biopiracy of indigenous resources, and it turns those life forms into just mere commodities to be used for profit. This is life that pre-existed us as well, and to be putting that into some commercial, separate ownership is inappropriate. It also puts up barriers to the free flow of scientific research, and in the material I circulated I pointed out that there was a case\u2014and it has just been won in the Supreme Court in the United States\u2014where a breast cancer cell and an ovarian cancer cell had been patented, and that was blocking research in that area. Anything around life, any genetic material, is everybody\u2019s, and, again, my colleague spoke about the fact that the helix of DNA is part of the natural world. Sure, we are getting to understand it and there is some fantastic science, and there are individuals who are discovering new aspects all the time, but that is ours, that is everybody\u2019s, and it should not be included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe issue, as I was saying, about breast cancer and ovarian cancer and those genetic mutations that were identified resulted in a huge uproar. There were multiple groups, scientific associations and medical people, who pushed against that decision until it was reversed. We have to be careful here in New Zealand when we look at some fantastic new approaches and patents around computer software and programs. Here we could make another clear statement in a similar league by supporting this Supplementary Order Paper. Allowing the passing of this bill without supporting the Supplementary Order Paper will lead to the continued blocking of open research and to profit making from our collectively owned genes and resources, and, importantly, it will continue the process of stealing those resources, including the intellectual property of M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESome industries seek out organisms, and they draw upon this intellectual property to get control, and to get control of the food chain. One of them, of course, is internationally known as Monsanto and it has just created case after case in the courts. It has put farmers out of business, and it has really distorted where farming, where agriculture, where the food supply should naturally lie. It has also had an effect on the availability of the diversity of seed available to everyone, from farmers down to home gardeners. There is a huge reduction in the amount of genetic material available, because these monopolies that have got greater and greater control through some patents and just some small angles have also ended up buying up the seed companies and have restricted others\u2019 access to those same seeds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ESo what would the amendment do? The amendment would specify that life is not a patentable invention. Currently, the bill already excludes some aspects of life\u2014those exclusions being human beings and their biological processes. That is great. That is a very good exclusion, but it does not go far enough. The invention of a method of treatment of human beings by surgery or therapy is a very good exclusion. The invention of a method of diagnosis practised on humans is another. The list of exclusions includes computer programs, which is a fantastic shift. Plant variety, because it is already very deeply and solidly covered under the Plant Variety Rights Act, still leaves many life forms, and those elements of life are still part of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EPlants and humans aside, the bill does not go anywhere near far enough. Animals, bacteria, viruses, cells, and algae all need that extra protection of the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014and their traits. Even a piece of DNA, of genetic material, from those is something that is ours. It is everybody\u2019s. Everybody on this planet owns that, and letting someone manipulate it, even slightly, is something quite different from inventing a thing. There is a moral level. [Bell rung] Life is not\u2014I suppose I have done my time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc67ef316f284885afa3b341121ad363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc67ef316f284885afa3b341121ad363\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to call\u2014I will just explain. You have had two calls in a row, and we do not normally give a third one when someone else is calling, so I am giving the call to Dr Megan Woods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002214fab60fc0db488b872c2a902188b0a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214fab60fc0db488b872c2a902188b0a5\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take this call on the Patents Bill, and to hear further from the member Steffan Browning, because I think we are discussing some very important issues around his Supplementary Order Paper 124 this afternoon in the Chamber. There are some very complicated issues around the level of debate informing a number of people. I want to join with my colleague David Parker in thanking the member for the consultation he has done with us around the Supplementary Order Paper that he has put up. It was a discussion that was engendered amongst the caucus too, which we have been able to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think that what we are discussing this afternoon cuts to the heart of what a 21st century economy might look like and what a high-tech 21st century economy in New Zealand may look like. The 20th century in many ways in New Zealand was transformed in the 1980s by New Zealand researchers and New Zealand commercial entities in 1987 being able to protect their plant variety rights as New Zealand moved more into the intellectual property sphere in terms of what we did around protecting our intellectual property rights. The fact that we had protectable rights around plant varieties saw Zespri invest $20 million in developing Hort16A, which is the kiwi gold kiwifruit that has gone on to earn that company billions of dollars. It saw the New Zealand Apple and Pear Board, under its various incarnations, invest similar amounts of money in apple varieties and it gave us the Jazz apple. What we know is that if we are going to have high-value, high-tech, sustainable industries in the 21st century, we do need them to be commercially viable and we do need people to invest in that research and development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EMr Browning raised some very interesting questions in his first contribution\u2014one of what I am sure will be many on this issue\u2014about public-good science and the role that public-good science should play in our society. Public-good science is hugely important, but I think it is very important to remember, when we are talking about whether or not we can protect biotechnology intellectual property, that it is not a dichotomy\u2014it is not either/or. I started talking about the transformation that the New Zealand economy could undertake in the 20th century, through the protection of plant variety rights. I truly believe that the ability to have protectable intellectual property around organisms, and particularly micro-organisms, in the 21st century is going to be a similar transformational boon for the economy. It is something that New Zealand cannot be left out of and something that we have to make sure we have progressive and world-leading legislation around, to make sure it is fully capable of dealing with these situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of whether or not, as Mr Browning has suggested, we might put commercial protections around knowledge, and whether that will actually stifle the ability of researchers and the way in which researchers conduct themselves and the ability for knowledge to flourish in this country\u2014the way in which we need knowledge in this area to flourish if we are going to have the kind of economy that we on this side of the Chamber know is our future. I do not think that protecting will do that. We have seen an analogous situation in what has happened in the fields of our traditional crop sciences, around the ability to protect the horticultural and arable crops. We have not seen a stifling of interactions. We have not seen a stifling of the ability of researchers to get together. Something that we always have to remember is that this research happens on a continuum. The fundamental basic research is still going to be published in the scientific journals. It is still going to be subject to peer review. It is as we get down the chain and we look more at the applications of this knowledge that the protections come into place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ELet us think about what it is that a patent process does, and what would happen if we do not have a patent process. If we do not have a patent process, what will happen is that industry and commercial entities will be less likely to let their scientists and their researchers share their knowledge and work with other collaborators. What they will rely on is know-how\u2014trade secrets and know-how. But if they go through the patent system, then there is a clear chain of documentation. There is a clear chain that lays out the research path that it has been put on, and a clear chain of who the researchers working on it are. Part of the patenting process, after all, is about making that knowledge public. We need to see whether there is prior art. We have to consider what research has happened in the past in this field, so these are things that I am confident will allow our biotechnology sector to flourish in New Zealand. I think that this new economy, the biotech economy, is an important part of our future going into the 21st century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI want to consider some of the ways in which micro-organisms might play a role in a 21st century New Zealand economy. One of the things that we have to absolutely grapple with in this century is the idea of greenhouse gas emission, and how, in an agricultural economy and an agricultural society and country, we are going to manage that. Bacteria and micro-organisms can play a crucial role in this. The photosynthesis that happens via bacteria is so much more rapid than photosynthesis that occurs through only plant material. Using bacteria in our soils is actually a way for us to reduce our reliance on nitrate-rich fertilisers in our soils. There are huge environmental gains for us to be made by having the ability to use these micro-organisms in our agricultural practice, but the only way that we will get industry to invest, to commercialise these products, and for us to be able to use them is if they can see a viable business model that operates around them. Being able to protect their intellectual property for the millions of dollars of investment that they are going to make is absolutely vital to this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe have seen that the popular science literature is full of ways in which bacteria and micro-organisms are going to be a huge part of our finding a sustainable path for the 21st century. Toxins that can usually last in soils and sands for up to 10 years can be broken down in a matter of days through the use of bacteria. Imagine what we could do in terms of cleaning up around spills if we have these high-tech, high-value products that can be used to do that. But we need to encourage industry to invest in this. Yes, our public-good science and our universities absolutely have a part to play, and that is something that I believe in passionately. I believe that we need our universities to be \u201Ccritic and conscience\u201D and free to publish, but we also need to have the part of the chain where we can commercialise this knowledge well-though-out and part of a sophisticated economy that is capable of taking us forward. It is about the ability to protect the knowledge around these organisms, and particularly even the organisms themselves, because that will be our competitive advantage in the 21st century. It is our raw natural product of our talent and our ability to work in this field, put together with what we have always done well, that will take us into the 21st century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we know is\u2014and my colleague David Parker talked about it and Mr Browning addressed it\u2014the fact that biofuels is something that we know are going to be part of the 21st century. Bacteria and micro-organisms are an absolutely crucial part of this technology. Without the ability to build a business model around it to see how it stacks up, and to know how it is that a company can make a commercial gain out of this, it will not be the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOf course there need to be limits on this. We need to be able to protect the ability for us to have surgical procedures and the things that there is a morality around. They need to have limits. But the legislation as it currently stands offers those protections. We do not need this amendment. All this amendment will do is stifle the ability to innovate when actually there are some very elegant solutions that have been well-thought-through, that have been worked hard on by this Committee, and are indeed in this current piece of legislation. Labour will not be voting for this Supplementary Order Paper. It has been an interesting discussion and I thank the Committee for this discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u002285ede4f26060425caf2e84b9502a7c35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285ede4f26060425caf2e84b9502a7c35\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022836b1716e0c4462b8d027d33260093c2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, point of order. The honourable member Metiria Turei. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Ms Turei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022766df156ab314b4f8b2c370f075aa20d\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I am glad you are so relieved. I seek the leave of the Committee to amend a Green Party vote on Part 1. We mistakenly opposed Supplementary Order Paper 237 when we should have voted in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e771320f9d134f2cab7a07b2d681f298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e771320f9d134f2cab7a07b2d681f298\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none. The vote shall be amended. Thank you. Kei te pai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022557110c43f5949449e9daf23c9b4a691\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022557110c43f5949449e9daf23c9b4a691\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I hope you are similarly relieved by the content of my speech. I have Supplementary Order Paper 348 on the Table, which amends various clauses within this Patents Bill, including at least one clause in Part 2 and a substantive one in Part 6. I would like to take the opportunity to talk with members about Supplementary Order Paper 348. It does two main things. First, it removes the advisory aspect\u2014or the dominance of the advisory aspect\u2014from the M\u0101ori committee and makes the recommendations of the M\u0101ori committee concerning patents obligatory on the Commissioner of Patents and the decisions that the commissioner makes. Second, it removes the commissioner from the appointment of members to the M\u0101ori committee, and instead replaces that person with the Minister of Commerce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI want to briefly outline the issues around why Supplementary Order Paper 348 was put together. We have committed to making further changes to intellectual property law to give effect to the Wai 262 claim and the Waitangi Tribunal report Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei. We want first to just acknowledge the original claimants of Wai 262, which was lodged 20 years ago\u2014more than that possibly\u2014by members of Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B, Te Rarawa, Ng\u0101ti K\u014Data, Ngati Porou, Ng\u0101ti Wai, and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and acknowledge that none of those original claimants is still alive. All have passed on. We acknowledge the support of those claimants, particularly Saana Murray and Dell W\u012Bhongi, who were so instrumental in fighting the incursion of genetic engineering into our environment because they believed with all their hearts that we must protect the mauri of Te Ao M\u0101ori not for themselves or for ourselves but for their tamariki and for our mokopuna to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe issues here concerning patents have a very long history\u2014a very long Te Tiriti - based history. Unfortunately, in the way that the bill has been prepared and the select committee process for this bill, that history has been largely ignored. Although we cannot fix that failure during this Committee process, we can make a small step to try to remedy at least part of that failure. So we have Supplementary Order Paper 348 on the Table, which meets some of the M\u0101ori submitters\u2019 concerns about the nature of the M\u0101ori advisory committee and gives that committee more authority and more decision-making power in the decisions around patents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe will be clear. We support this bill because it makes some significant improvements to patent law in New Zealand, ruling out patents on humans, on methods of treatment and diagnosis, on plant varieties, and on computer programs. I acknowledge the work of my colleague Gareth Hughes, which was instrumental in campaigning to make sure that those protections or exclusions were put in place. These changes are important and they are way overdue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EBut the bill does not deal with the issues that were raised in Wai 262. It does not deal with the issues that were raised by the tribunal in Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei. That means there are serious gaps and flaws in it. We acknowledge that. In supporting this legislation we acknowledge those gaps. Our support comes with the knowledge that there is no real progress on m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori here in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe reason we have put forward the changes in Supplementary Order Paper 348 is to at least give the M\u0101ori world view\u2014m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, Te Ao M\u0101ori\u2014the opportunity to have a genuine say at the table. I would just refer members to the Waitangi Tribunal report. The tribunal was very careful and very measured\u2014it has had some criticism for being far too measured, I have to say\u2014in stating its view on how M\u0101ori should be part of the decision-making process around patents. It said: \u201CThe Treaty of Waitangi gave the Crown the right to govern and enact laws, but that right was qualified by guarantee of tino rangatiratanga \u2026 for iwi and hap\u016B over their \u2018taonga katoa\u2019 \u2026 The courts have characterised this exchange of rights and obligations as a partnership. In this context, tino rangatiratanga means that iwi and hap\u016B are entitled to exercise authority over their m\u0101tauranga, and to exercise authority over their relationships with taonga such as cultural works and parts of the environment that are significant to their culture and identity, so that they can fulfil their obligations as kaitiaki.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E So that sets the framework for how these issues need to be considered by the Crown. The tribunal then went on to say that its recommendations include, in relation to changes to patent law in particular, \u201Cthe establishment of a M\u0101ori advisory committee to advise the Commissioner of Patents and Plant Variety Rights about whether inventions are derived from M\u0101ori traditional knowledge or use taonga species;\u201D\u2014that is there in a very watered-down form in this bill\u2014\u201Cestablishment of a register of kaitiaki interests in taonga species; granting the Commissioner of Patents the power to refuse patents that unduly interfere with the relationship between kaitiaki and taonga; and introducing a legal requirement for patent applicants to disclose any M\u0101ori traditional knowledge used in research, and the source and the country of origin of any genetic or biological material contributing to the invention.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is essentially about making sure that there is M\u0101ori decision making about whether patents should proceed, based on m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori and the M\u0101ori connection\u2014their obligation to be kaitiaki of those natural taonga\u2014and that there is an obligation on those seeking patents to provide information about those patents from a M\u0101ori point of view. That is good. That means that when those organisations, those companies, those researchers, and those inventors are in this country, this Te Tiriti - based country, they need to take as their first principle considerations of where M\u0101ori interests lie in the work they are doing, whose taonga they are using for the invention, how they have communicated with those people who are kaitiaki, and how they then work with those kaitiaki to make sure that the m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori is respected, restored, and protected. That obligation should be on those who are making the applications. It should be on the researchers and on the inventors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe must make sure that M\u0101ori interests are maintained and upheld from the very start. The current law simply does not deal with any of that at this point. It does nothing about that. We cannot fix that in this bill at this point. It does mean that at some point the Government is going to have to\u2014well, we would very much like the Government to\u2014take the tribunal report, the findings, and these recommendations very seriously and find a way to implement them in this new patents law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe understand that it was not widely understood or acknowledged at the time that the bill was drafted and at the time that the Commerce Committee heard the submissions. Now that we do know, now that we have the report, and now that we have more information and understanding about how the law could better reflect and incorporate m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori and Te Ao M\u0101ori into its decision-making processes, we have an obligation as a Parliament to make it happen. This is what the Treaty relationship requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will be supporting this bill. We urge members to support our Supplementary Order Paper 348 around the M\u0101ori advisory committee, to at least give some opportunity for M\u0101ori to be decision makers over those issues that are most important to them. It is a small but significant step that could be made today, to take the issue just a little bit further, and then for us to find a way to work together in the future\u2014and in the very near future I would hope\u2014to really bring these issues from Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei to the fore, and further amendments to patent law and intellectual property law. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00225bbca2a63bed414d8b7eb9e6cb34e7d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bbca2a63bed414d8b7eb9e6cb34e7d1\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to this Patents Bill. I want to start first by agreeing with the previous speaker, Metiria Turei, that the Wai 262 matters need to be addressed. That is fundamentally something that this Government has been very slow to work on, and M\u0101ori whom I speak with who have an interest in this area are incredibly frustrated with the lack of progress on that particular claim. There is absolutely no doubt that there are some very tricky details to sort through, but that is no excuse for not addressing them and for parking the work and not actually getting on with having that conversation. It is my understanding that that is the current state of things. The Minister in the chair, the Minister of Commerce, may like to take a call to correct me if that is not the case, and maybe explain what work is going on, because it does cut to the heart of the issue that we are debating here and to which I wish to return as I round out my contribution on this part of the bill, Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis part of the bill is, as I said, right there at the core. It starts out: \u201CPatent may be granted for patentable inventions only\u201D. In one sense we would say that that is an absolute truism, but then this part of the bill wants to set out what that means and what it does not mean, because we need to know as lawmakers exactly why we are putting these things in place and what the purpose is that we are trying to achieve. We talked about the wider public and social good in the previous part. This part of the bill lays out exactly what it is that that means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere are many types of intellectual property. We are talking about patents that protect ideas and concepts, as opposed to patents for designs, which protect appearance, aesthetics, and the like; copyright, which protects the copying of things that are exactly the same; or trademarks, which are designed to protect a unique sign. It is distinguished from know-how, which is more around confidential information and is the kind of thing that is usually covered by contract. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo we are talking here about patents and what is patentable. There is a significant change that is picked up in this part. Clause 13 of Part 2 says that an invention that is patentable is one that is a manner of manufacture, is novel, takes an inventive step\u2014that means it is not obvious\u2014is useful, and is not excluded by other clauses that are discussed elsewhere, in clauses 14 and 15. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAll of these criteria must be satisfied before a patent application can be accepted and granted. Currently, inventive step and usefulness are not part of the patent examination process. So this tightens up the law in a fashion that we think is very important. But we do not go so far as to say that we think that organisms, including plant varieties and traits in organisms, are not patentable inventions. That is because of the kind of economy that we believe there should be in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI should say that all members of the House\u2014or, I believe, most parties\u2014are going to be supporting this bill. We are all in agreement that we need to have patentable material and that it needs to be well defined, in the interests of New Zealand. What we are having a debate about in one sense is precisely how far this patenting should extend. The Labour Party has a strong view that we need a diversified economy, and that we need an economy that is based on new technologies, new inventions, new ideas, and new concepts. So we want to support legislation that encourages new patents, that encourages new inventions, and that encourages and protects the ideas generated by New Zealanders for reasons of greater social good, but also in the interests of New Zealand as a country. That is why we support the legislation, and that is why we think these tests need to be put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe idea that we will not protect plant varieties, as suggested in Supplementary Order Paper 124, which Mr Browning has put forward, does potentially undercut the future prosperity of New Zealand. In the Labour Party we believe that we need to have a prosperous and flourishing economy in order to provide those social goods, and in a sustainable fashion, that we as a country would like to afford and need to afford. With high unemployment at the moment and an economy that is struggling, we see many of these things being cut, through a range of cuts by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn order to afford the health care and the education that we as a country would like to see, we need to have a prosperous economy. One way in which we do that is by protecting intellectual property correctly. A law that updates the understanding of what that might mean is very important to New Zealand\u2019s future prosperity and to a diverse economy that is not susceptible to putting all our eggs in one basket and then susceptible to global trends in commodity prices, to use one very pertinent example right now, with the trade issues with China. This kind of legislation can encourage entrepreneurs to explore new ideas, to expand the base of human knowledge, and therefore to also increase New Zealand\u2019s prosperity over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere are exclusions that are explicit in this part of the bill, and we support these as well. The examples provided here and in several of the Supplementary Order Papers are intended to give a signal to law interpreters further down the track. For example, we know that exclusions are there to restrict access to necessary health-care, to treatments of human beings by surgery or therapy, to methods of diagnosis practised on human beings, and to biological processes for their generation in respect of human beings. There are others that are here as examples, obviously intended as a guide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIf we look at clause 14(1) and beneath it, we have a series of examples that are designed to suggest a more general principle. It states: \u201CAn invention is not a patentable invention if the commercial exploitation of the invention, so far as claimed in a claim, is contrary to\u2014(a) public order \u2026 or (b) morality.\u201D, and these things in that list are things that we would consider moral, potentially. Those kinds of exclusions are put in there for good reason. They are technical exclusions, but they are very important and are intended as a guide for future use. This part also defines the term of a patent, which is 20 years from the patent date unless certain fees that are appropriate to the filing of a patent are not paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe purpose of a patent is to enable the inventor to exploit the invention. Obviously, it is to encourage them to invest and therefore reap a reward further down the track. The various, what shall we call them, protections\u2014is the right word\u2014put around that throughout Part 2 are there to make sure that those things are looked after. Subpart 3 is about who may be granted a patent and it covers technical details around co-owners of patents. We know that once you add a few more people into the mix, these things can become more complicated, and it is good that the department has worked through the detail in that respect. Part 2 also gives power to a commissioner to give directions to co-owners, so there is a discretion clause in here\u2014clause 25 in Part 2, Subpart 3\u2014that gives the commissioner some discretion. That seems appropriate in the context of this legislation, so that we do not get perverse outcomes from the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut, to round out this contribution, we in the Labour Party are uncomfortable\u2014very uncomfortable\u2014with the exclusion of organisms, especially considering the way in which some of our more prosperous inventions have come from that area. An example is the kiwifruit industry, as alluded to by my colleague Dr Megan Woods earlier on. We know that patents such as the Hamilton jet and so on are the trademark\u2014not the trademark, excuse the pun. They are the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63562c305ba4d7cb544418d7dc07ad1\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Hallmark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243aafc3165f245eba83eb8de19440943\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014hallmark. Thank you to the Hon Maryan Street for that tip. They are the hallmark of a New Zealand that we would want to see, going into the future. It is that kind of inventiveness that our very good education system has produced. We produce quality graduates who are smart thinkers. We want to ensure that New Zealand\u2019s prosperity is built on that creativeness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to hearing a contribution from the Minister because it is a very important issue for this bill as to whether these inventions are excluded or included, and I am interested in his view on this matter. He has been strangely quiet\u2014perhaps a member of that rare species of parliamentary wallflower whom the public would happily have us patent in order for more widespread exploitation. But I am sure that the Minister will take a call, and I look forward to hearing why it is that he thinks this Supplementary Order Paper should be included or excluded. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00229518a4e589ee449db9915395c535baa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229518a4e589ee449db9915395c535baa4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Denis O\u2019Rourke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022df0acf16bffa422da6863265cee5430a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df0acf16bffa422da6863265cee5430a\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman\u2014a very good choice. The Minister of Commerce\u2019s amendments in Supplementary Order Paper 120 as they apply to Part 2 will be supported by New Zealand First, and New Zealand First will also support Steffan Browning\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 124. We will also support his Supplementary Order Paper 336 amendments on Part 3, which are only inconsequential amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EAs he points out, the Patents Bill allows many life forms to be subject to patentability, and this should not be the case. We agree with the reasons he gives for that\u2014in particular, because it may encourage piracy of some of New Zealand\u2019s indigenous flora and fauna, turning life forms into commodities to be used for profit. There is also the problem of the barriers to scientific research that it may create. We think that is a very significant issue, because it is not in the interests of any country at all that scientific research should be inhibited in any way whatsoever. That is possibly an unintended effect of the bill, but it is one that we take very seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ELife forms, however they come into being, must not become the exclusive property of anybody or any corporation, and free access to them by everybody\u2014especially the science community\u2014should be clearly preserved, in our view. As a matter of principle, nobody invents life forms. No matter how they may be discovered, manipulated, or used, they are not actually invented. Even if a life form can be altered to display characteristics different from similar forms found in nature, this is still not an act of invention by humans. It is just a manipulation of the life form already subsisting in the natural world. So, in the end, for people who own the traits created by such manipulation, such as the seeds, it is just, in fact, a method of securing a monopoly, which we do not necessarily see as positive. This must not be allowed or encouraged. It is sufficient that those who create such traits will have a head start in exploiting them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI know that where I live in Canterbury there are companies overseas that send seeds to Canterbury to be grown first, because, of course, New Zealand is a season ahead of the rest of the world. Having been grown and reproduced, the seeds can be used very quickly in other parts of the world. That is the advantage those companies would have from the seeds, so there is no need for them to be patented. In fact, it is better that they should become as widely available as possible in due course, for the potential benefit to all humankind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EAs Mr Browning points out, the bill prohibits only some life forms from patentability. It says, for example, that human tissue cannot be patented, whether for treatment or therapy purposes or other such purposes. Plant varieties are also not patentable, but they are protected under the Plant Variety Rights Act. The definition of that term in that Act means that there are still many life forms not covered. Therefore, we think a more comprehensive provision is needed in order to prevent patents for living life forms. Therefore, the Browning amendment would not compromise the development of exclusivity relating to products such as Zespri that have the protection of the Plant Variety Rights Act and of international agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EConcerning the development of new\u2014that is, changed\u2014micro-organisms for commercial use, such as in the development of biofuels, although not covered by the Plant Variety Rights Act and although such developments may become commercially valuable, that does not itself justify patentability and does not in the end undermine New Zealand\u2019s commercial interests in using such organisms, because the value of them would be in New Zealand\u2019s economic advantage, such as climate advantage, in producing and marketing them. So I do not accept that Mr Browning\u2019s amendments would damage New Zealand\u2019s commercial interests at all, as claimed by Labour. I think that Labour has got it somewhat wrong and should have another look at the situation. New Zealand First will therefore vote for Mr Browning\u2019s amendment, but, whether it passes or not, we will also vote for Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0fc71f6c96b42a087089b2eb8fd8163\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0fc71f6c96b42a087089b2eb8fd8163\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to address some of the issues that have come up from Labour members in regard to plants and patents. Labour members seem to think that we will lose the advantages that we have had in the development of different kiwifruit and apples, and it is around the Plant Variety Rights Act. There is a distinct difference between a patent and the protections in the Plant Variety Rights Act, and those very plants that they are talking of are protected, regardless of my Supplementary Order Paper 124, because they are protected under a very strong Plant Variety Rights Act\u2014that is not a patent. I will mention some of the limits or exemptions to a grant holder\u2019s rights that allow for a more communal approach or reach into those plants that have got those protections. There is very good protection for those people who have bred or who have put that effort in to get those plants to fruition and then out into the market. Other persons are free to grow or use protected varieties for non-commercial purposes\u2014so the community at large can benefit\u2014but the commercial aspect is still protected for those who have developed them. Other persons are free to use the plants or parts of a protected variety for human consumption or for other non-propagating purposes. They are free to use a protected variety for plant breeding, although the repeated use of a protected variety for the commercial production of an F1 hybrid seed is not permitted without the authority of the rights holder. There are some pretty strong protections for the breeders of the plant varieties, but they do not need a patent, so I think it would be good if our colleagues in Labour have a rethink there, because the legislation certainly does not cut off that innovation and the commercial benefit for those who do that development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EBut on a moral level, life is not an invention and should not be owned by any one person or corporation. Unfortunately, with a patent, just the little addition of a single gene can become the invention of someone who claims private ownership. So any animal, bacteria, cell, virus, or algae could be patented, and, as I say, we have already got plants covered elsewhere. I will run through a little bit of history where this has run amok internationally, with the patenting. I will use plants as an example, even though we are not patenting them or an extreme version of them. You can add that once you start to put these bacterial traits or viruses or whatever into plants, then you start to get into the world of patents. In 1994 the US Plant Variety Protection Act was amended, incentivising breeders by no longer allowing farmers to save seed without a licence from the owner of the seed variety, and, ultimately, they got into the area of patents. As a result, the farmers become bound to pay licence fees and royalties to the companies developing them, despite their prior universal right to save, plant, and exchange seed from their own harvests, requiring the skills and knowledge of their localities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EModern biotech companies have claimed the rights over entire species and prevented access to their inventions by other scientists, but it was the fact that they were able to allow for patents in there that really locked things up. The advent of patenting genes was followed by an extremely successful float on the stock market of a company called Genentech, which raised huge money. Those companies then saw the potential of a new stream of income, and they encouraged development, which has led to the monopolisation of the agricultural seed market, which I mentioned earlier, and a significant collapse of traditional seed markets. There is plenty of research supporting that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EMonsanto actually got a patent on Roundup, the weed killer, and it was due to lapse after a period of time. So how was it going to manage and maintain that market? Well, it patented some crops, using what they call the \u201Cevents\u201D\u2014an \u201Cevent\u201D is using some material from a micro-organism and putting it in. With these events, as such, being patented, and being able to express that through crops, Monsanto benefited because it had this Roundup ready technology tied into its genetically modified seeds. A technology fee was charged to farmers, and then they had to pay a per-acre royalty on patented seeds, and then they were also bound by an agreement that prevented them from saving the seed for planting in a subsequent year, instead buying new seeds every year. This followed lots and lots of litigation about farmers not using their genetically modified seeds. I have seen the same thing in Australia. I am over there shortly and will be looking at some other situations where things have gone bad from contamination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EBut it is the actual micro-organisms that are involved in this; it is not the plants traditionally protected under the Plant Variety Rights Act. We are getting into all aspects of life and the genetic material being able to be patented. That went wrong because companies have become quite monopolistic in the way they have managed that in the United States and in some other countries. With the increased use of herbicides, plants have now got resistance, so now companies are patenting and doing new genetically modified varieties, right through to having varieties modified so they can spray 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid on them, as well. That is just so they can retain control of the food chain and be able to sell their herbicides and pesticides, which, although we were told would not increase in use, have, in fact, increased hugely\u2014significantly\u2014in use. So now there are new varieties coming through with other micro-organisms and other traits being developed. Note that we say \u201Cagainst the patenting of traits\u201D for very, very good reason, because this allows that control of what has happened over there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThis is not about blocking innovation; it is about ensuring access for the community, for farmers, for researchers, and for medicine to all these traits of these parts of life: the genetic material, the microbes, algae, the cells of animals, the different parts of animals, which, with a little tweak, is something that they can own\u2014something that is everybody\u2019s. My colleague Metiria Turei talked before about the issues around the M\u0101ori advisory board and the group that would give recommendations, if asked by the Commissioner of Patents. That comes down to the same core\u2014the same aspect. It comes right down to the basis of life and whether it should be patentable. I hope that colleagues and other parties will reconsider and support all of the Green Party Supplementary Order Papers, which will make this bill a really strong, fantastic, innovative bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002258e25fa54ab845388852dbb26a47c823\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258e25fa54ab845388852dbb26a47c823\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Part 2 of this Patents Bill, I would like to take us back to the overarching principles that my colleague David Parker referenced in his speech on this part of the bill earlier this afternoon. What this bill is trying to achieve is the balance of two interests. Those interests are around allowing innovators to profit from their inventions, and, second, ensuring that the monopoly rights that accompany patents are not unduly exploited. Those principles lie beneath every part of this Patents Bill, and, as I will set out in a minute, there have been deliberate exceptions set out in this bill because it is acknowledged that in order to modernise this bill, we had to look at the things that should not be patentable. Part 2 is the part that excludes software from being patentable. We have had a detailed discussion about that. But it also excludes a number of other things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe other thing that underpins this bill is the idea and the knowledge that our 1953 patent law is out of date, that it needs updating, and that it is too generous to people seeking patents. One of the things that my colleagues from the Greens and even New Zealand First need to think about when we are actually discussing this bill is that there has been a push back to say that not everything that has been patented before should be allowed to be patented. There has been a significant relaxing, I suppose, of that environment, so that the ability to go out and get a patent for whatever you like is no longer there. It is just no longer there. It is actually really important to bear that in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWith reference to the organisms debate, it should be noted\u2014and let us be very clear here\u2014that you cannot patent any living thing in New Zealand as it occurs in its natural form. You can patent only novel processes or cell lines or genetic modifications. I note that the Minister of Commerce is nodding his head vigorously. It would be good if he perhaps took a call to actually point that out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI will draw everybody\u2019s attention to the criteria for granting a patent, where those criteria have to align to those that apply in other countries. A patentable invention is an invention that is a manner of manufacture, it is novel\u2014so it has to be new\u2014it has to take an inventive step that is not obvious, it has to be useful, and, obviously, it is not part of the exclusions, which I am going to list again in a minute. Those criteria have to be met. They have to be satisfied before any patent application can be accepted and granted. I am just going to read again that you cannot patent any living thing in New Zealand as it occurs in its natural form. That is a really important principle, and that is why the Labour Party is not supporting the Greens\u2019 Supplementary Order Paper 124, because, as we see it, the bill has gone through an extensive select committee process where all of those issues were discussed and were addressed. Yes, we can have further debate about them, but what the Supplementary Order Paper proposes is extensive. It is extensive in terms of compromising the intent of the Commerce Committee as it stood back in 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThere have been extensive speeches given this afternoon by a number of my colleagues about the impact on our clean, green tech industries and the importance of being able to patent new processes in order to be able to progress them. There was the reference to LanzaTech and the world-leading climate change work around natural bacteria, which cannot be patented. It is the process of carbon monoxide conversion to create ethanol for fuel that is patentable. It is the process; it is not the organism itself. I did want to point that out. We had a very passionate speaker in my colleague Megan Woods, giving a great defence and being very proactive around what sort of economy we could and should become\u2014a diversified economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe other thing that Part 2 does in this bill is to set out exclusions from patentability. They are set out in clause 14(2), which states that \u201Ccommercial exploitation must not be regarded as contrary to public order or morality only because it is prohibited by any law in force in New Zealand.\u201D There are half a dozen exclusions from this, of which computer software is one. We have discussed that at length, and I am not going to go into that, but the others are also important. Because the legislation brings in that concept of morality, ultimately that is the cover. That is the cover for many of the issues that are being brought up in the Chamber this afternoon. Clause 14(1) includes examples of non-patentable inventions: \u201Can invention that is a process for cloning human beings:\u201D\u2014no part of a human being can be patented\u2014\u201Can invention that is a process for modifying the germ line genetic identity of human beings: an invention that involves the use of human embryos for industrial or commercial purposes: an invention that is a process for modifying the genetic identity of animals that is likely to cause them suffering without any substantial medical benefit to human beings of animals, or an invention that is an animal resulting from such a process.\u201D Those matters are important. Those are examples of some of the things that cannot be patentable. Also, clause 15(2) includes: \u201CAn invention of a method of treatment of human beings by surgery or therapy \u2026 (3) An invention of a method of diagnosis practised on human beings \u2026\u201D and then the computer program. Those matters are significant. They are significant. There was in-depth discussion by submitters and discussion in the select committee with officials on all of those matters, and I think that, on balance, the select committee ultimately got it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EFinally, I just want to refer to the discussion around the M\u0101ori advisory committee and Supplementary Order Paper 348, introduced by Metiria Turei. We on the Labour side of the Chamber feel that there is a question mark around just what that Supplementary Order Paper would actually achieve. Just let me reiterate what the bill does around the establishment of the M\u0101ori advisory committee. It would advise the Commissioner of Patents in relation to patent applications for inventions involving traditional knowledge or indigenous plants and animals. That committee has to be allowed to function in order to progress this discussion, and I certainly think that there is a case for further discussion on this matter. It is very significant, but we have to get on and allow that committee to actually start to function and to provide that advice that can be used by the Commissioner of Patents to assist in determining whether those inventions are novel, whether they involve an inventive step, and whether the commercial exploitation of those inventions will be contrary to M\u0101ori values. We need to put this bill into practice so that we can actually get on and do that. I do want to note that the establishment of the M\u0101ori advisory committee was recommended by the Royal Commission on Genetic Modification. This is, again, a significant part of the bill. I certainly think that it needs further discussion, but I think we have got to get on with it and test it and see how it works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u00220ca1767aeb4249b1b00724a2091cd94e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ca1767aeb4249b1b00724a2091cd94e\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairman. I thought I would pick up on the contributions from my colleague Clare Curran on the M\u0101ori advisory committee. I understand it comes in at Part 6 of this Patents Bill, but if my colleague could send me a copy of that Supplementary Order Paper 348, I would be most appreciative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI want to make some comments on the advisory committee because there has been a M\u0101ori trade marks advisory group around for\u2014I would say\u2014close to 10 years now. It was quite an innovative thing at the time of its creation, and I understand that it has been doing some very good work in terms of providing advice on trademark applications. I do not want to be sort of stretching into Part 6, but because this Supplementary Order Paper on this part deals with the M\u0101ori advisory committee, I want to make a contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca380c13daa47deb97081e3e47a464e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284b0d5628d9845268868a6a1db379337\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to my colleague for the copy. I think we do need to look closely at the role of the advisory committee. It is commendable that it is included in the bill and that it follows from the advice of the royal commission, but in contrast with the M\u0101ori Trade Marks Advisory Committee, the power of appointment to the committee is in the hands of the commissioner. If you look at the M\u0101ori Trade Marks Advisory Committee, you see that the membership of that committee has hardly changed in over 10 years, and you have a lot of\u2014what should I call them\u2014intellectual-type people, mainly Auckland-based people, and maybe some Wellington bureaucratic - type people who have been members of that committee for a very, very long time. I would not want to see the composition of the patents advisory committee drawn from the same type of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI come from the South Island, and we are very, very aware of our M\u0101ori interests in our flora and fauna and our natural landscape. It is disappointing to see that there is very little South Island input into, say, the M\u0101ori Trade Marks Advisory Committee, and that has been the case for close to 10 years. Although it is not specified in the bill, it would be advisable, I believe, to have geographically broad iwi representation and consideration, but, more fundamentally, to have expertise in those matters when the commissioner actually comes to selecting people to sit on these advisory committees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI have just a further remark: we do want to make sure that they are the best people for the job. This is highly specialised and also culturally significant expertise that is required, but I do not think that it is helpful to have advisory committee members appointed for such long durations of time\u2014in excess of a decade or whatever. They just roll them over and roll them over. I think there needs to be some consideration of their performance and giving others a go. Basically, you know, M\u0101oridom is made up of many iwi and many hap\u016B within those iwi, and there is a lot of expertise right around the country\u2014traditional expertise on tikanga M\u0101ori and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. I think it is fair that we give a broad representation and regular advice, or expertise if there is expertise\u2014and I know there is expertise on many, many different maraes and in wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B right around the country\u2014so that we freshen up the composition of these bodies with the expertise that is there right around the countryside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ESure, I guess you have to have a mix, a composition, on any type of board or advisory committee, but comparing it with the M\u0101ori Trade Marks Advisory Committee, I see names on that committee that have been there for close on 10 years. Being from the South Island, I do not know who they are. Many of these people are just academics from Auckland, so I do not want to see those sorts of same old, same old institutionalised people put on to these advisory committees representing all of M\u0101oridom. They are defending our p\u0101. They are the ones who will be defending our p\u0101. They are advising the commissioner, and so we need to get a broad mix of our m\u0101tauranga, of our tohunga, you could say, of our traditional expertise incorporated into that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI know that there is no size limit given to the committee, but I would certainly hope that there would be a fair representation of the geographically diverse iwi from the North Island and the South Island, and that their tikanga M\u0101ori expertise would be incorporated into the full composition of that advisory committee. But I will give further remarks on this matter when we get to Part 6. I just wanted to pick up on that, given that I heard that the member Metiria Turei had mentioned the advisory committee in Supplementary Order Paper 348. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u00228e41232c77ed4c8b9a936b4c509b4eec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e41232c77ed4c8b9a936b4c509b4eec\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I would like to take just a short call on a similar point to that of the previous speaker, Rino Tirikatene, and give some background as to why we put up Supplementary Order Paper 348. We did that because we actually went outside the walls of this Whare and talked to some people who had been involved in these issues for many years. What they said was that a M\u0101ori advisory committee is very 1980s as a concept. We are working towards a different world where we actually honour the Treaty in our legislative programme, and when we want to consult on vital issues like this we actually create entities that reflect the Treaty, and this Patents Bill is not it. So although we support the Patents Bill, we raised this Supplementary Order Paper in the hope that the House would be ready to move towards more of a co-governance approach, as we do with Treaty legislation. This is not co-governance. This is actually about allowing two different world views, where one gets to make all the calls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EReceiving advice has got nothing to do with following advice. In fact, if you look at the law, it does not require the Commissioner of Patents to take the advice. It requires the commissioner to hear the advice but not to take it, and it allows the commissioner to appoint. That is why we have suggested in the Supplementary Order Paper that it should be the Minister of Commerce rather than the commissioner who does this, and that the people on the committee should have power over their advice, not on all matters but on critical matters to do with taonga M\u0101ori and the m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori world view, and that advice would be binding. It is very interesting that when we talk about this process we want people to be able to be heard but not listened to. We want them to be able to speak, but we do not want to have to abide by what they say. So one world view is fine, it is going to dominate, and it is going to be accepted, but the other world view will not be. It might be if it is lucky and the commissioner decides that they will listen to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThis is very old-school, and it is very inappropriate in the 21st century in terms of both the findings of Wai 262 and the people who put up Wai 262. We spoke to people like Aroha Mead, who is an internationally recognised expert on intellectual property issues, and other people from around the motu who actually had huge concerns about what this bill entrenches in this bit\u2014not the whole bill, which has got many, many merits. It takes us right back in time to the good old era when the commissioner could tell the tangata whenua: \u201CThanks for the advice, but we\u2019ve decided to continue with our approach anyway.\u201D Let us hope that that will not happen, because what we hear is that the M\u0101ori Trade Marks Advisory Committee in many ways has actually worked pretty respectfully with the tangata whenua advice, but we cannot assume that that will happen. When we write law, we should do the right thing, and that law should be robust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThat is why we are also supporting Steffan Browning\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 124. There is something very fundamental about what he has put forward in the Committee today\u2014something very fundamental about what it is to be alive, what it is to be patented, and what it is to be protected by the law. What Steffan has done will also have the support of many of our colleagues in the tangata whenua world whom we have spoken to about this. They support Steffan\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper as well because, basically, it is talking about recognising that life cannot be commodified, and therefore the Supplementary Order Paper should be supported. Life cannot be commodified, and Te Tiriti should not be watered down to be about advice. So support our Supplementary Order Papers. There is the opportunity to do so on all sides of the House so that we actually get both these issues into what is a piece of legislation that we are encouraged by and that we believe the Minister of Commerce has made great progress on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThere is no excuse in the 21st century for treating M\u0101ori advice as token. There is always a risk when the commissioner has all the power, as they do. I support the member Rino Tirikatene in saying that often these committees become entrenched. They become about certain people receiving a position that they become comfortable in, and others are not heard. It is very important that we take this seriously and do not stay in the old mind-set of consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EAs my dad once said\u2014[Bell rung] I am about to finish, but I do want to say one more thing about what my dad always said about consultation: it is a cross between a con and an insult. I think that is an important point when the law does not require us to act around the responsibilities of article 2 in Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224feff171788a48f7a02363eeeaaf01ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000750\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 348 in the name of Metiria Turei to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002282f652a9b3ee440cb8e938c719aa76b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000751\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 124 in the name of Steffan Browning to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fdd01d6dfb814e108d4ff84e518a8bf5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 26\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 95\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000752\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0a33c2d67b644c88fccc767dac0e919\u0022\u003EPart 3  Process for obtaining grant of patent and other matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000754\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000755\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b78ff24ea6054cdd9b3f63fc5a7b2387\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b78ff24ea6054cdd9b3f63fc5a7b2387\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments set on Supplementary Order Paper 336 in the name of Steffan Browning to Part 3 are out of order because they were contingent on agreement to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 124 in his name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ddd2278ce2e8487c9db56f278f834e8a\u0022\u003EPart 4  Infringement, other patent proceedings, and matters affecting patent ownership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000759\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 237 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in his name to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000760\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000761\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b08f88e0dbe45edb0e0735ef51d7f63\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000762\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce3ea1a8b81a4efcb39409337d2df86b\u0022\u003EPart 6  Administrative and miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000764\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 237 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to the proposed amendments set on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in his name to Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000765\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000766\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce9fdc64daf14c9a99cecc974ac3ffc8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independent: Horan; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000767\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 126 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b51cdee573734c15bd4caff7745bc16f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc506416cf50420aa828aee0434d76c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc506416cf50420aa828aee0434d76c0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 336 in the name of Steffan Browning to Part 6 is out of order because it is contingent on agreement to Supplementary Order Paper 124. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 348 in the name of Metiria Turei to Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a113704c05a64d068c2d6269fc5ef050\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000770\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d58f054afc94ec0af9fd02daa55d7cc\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000772\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 237 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to the proposed amendment set out Supplementary Order Paper 120 in his name to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df1f26f17fe04cb69d04e890edaa03b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000773\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022418c9a7500484bea9ed09f42d456421c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000774\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a62bbba5bde442d0ada599e54954c0ae\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224241befe922449f4828e6378c9f1b72e\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000777\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 237 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in his name to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2761032ba4d467c9293efbe294d2de8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000778\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022281e7f41a8fd4c4ca77cc032fedea6ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; Independent: Horan; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000779\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000780\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000781\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022235f58dd9896464988f43163149ee525\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00228b89c745a0784898b0764995c8fe88b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b89c745a0784898b0764995c8fe88b5\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Patents Bill be now read a third time. The bill will repeal and replace the Patents Act 1953, other than the provisions relating to patent attorneys. The passage of this bill marks the conclusion of a lengthy process to reform and update New Zealand\u2019s patent legislation. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight key features of the bill that will contribute to ensuring that New Zealand\u2019s patent legislation supports innovation, while ensuring an appropriate balance between the interests of patent owners and society as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Patents Act 1953 does not achieve this objective. Its criteria for the grant of a patent are relatively weak compared with the criteria applied in most other countries. It is possible for patents to be granted for inventions that are not new or that are merely obvious variations of what is already known. The grant of such overly broad patents can impose unnecessary costs on consumers and businesses by restricting access to products and services that should be free for all to use. Such patents can actually inhibit rather than encourage innovation. Most innovations build on what already exists. If existing innovations are too heavily protected by patents, it can be difficult for subsequent innovators to build on them. This bill tightens up the criteria for grants in order to, as far as possible, ensure that patents are granted only for inventions that are genuine innovations\u2014that is, innovations that are new, that are not obvious, and that have identified real-world use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Committee, in its report to the House on the bill, recommended the inclusion of a provision that computer programs should not be patentable inventions. Supplementary Order Paper 237 introduced a number of amendments in the form of a new clause 10A of the Patents Bill, which deals with the patentability of computer programs. The amendments were designed to provide additional guidance on the proper interpretation of new clause 10A in a manner that is consistent with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations under the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights. The amendments also provided an appropriate balance between the interests of inventors and the interests of society as a whole, which is one of the key purposes of the Patents Bill and was already provided for in clause 3 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper amended the Patents Bill to provide additional clarity as to the meaning of the phrase \u201Ccomputer program as such\u201D in new clause 10A. The \u201Cas such\u201D wording was taken from the European Patent Convention and the United Kingdom Patents Act. In the United Kingdom, the \u201Cas such\u201D wording has been interpreted to mean that patent applications that involve or make use of a computer program are ineligible for patent protection if the alleged inventive feature lies solely in it being a computer program. Supplementary Order Paper 237 introduced two new subclauses to the bill, subclauses 10A(3) and 10A(4). The effect of these two additional subclauses is to codify in legislation the first three steps of a test set out in an English Court of Appeal decision, known as the Aerotel test. The amendments provide a clarification about how clause 10A should be interpreted. The Commissioner of Patents and the New Zealand courts should apply the Aerotel test and subsequent English jurisprudence that applies the test, when considering patent applications involving computer programs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EGiven the lack of New Zealand cases in this field of patent law, the ability to refer to UK case law will assist New Zealand practitioners when providing guidance to their clients. The effect of the test set out in new clause 10A is that it will not be possible to obtain a patent for an invention that involves or makes use of a computer program, if the alleged inventive feature lies solely in it being a computer program. However, a patent may still be granted for an invention that makes use of or involves a computer program, if the actual contribution made by the invention, first, lies outside of the computer, or, second, affects the computer itself but is not dependent on the type of data being processed or the particular application being used. The amendments in clause 10A as embodied in Supplementary Order Paper 237 provide improved assurances as to the intention behind clause 10A, and thus enable the passage of this important piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAlso included in the bill are measures to take account of concerns expressed by M\u0101ori and others regarding the granting of patents over plants and animals. This includes the establishment of a M\u0101ori advisory committee to advise the Commissioner of Patents where patent applications involve the use of traditional knowledge or indigenous plants and animals, and providing for patents to be refused where commercial exploitation of an invention will be contrary to morality or public policy. I am aware that the Waitangi Tribunal made a number of recommendations for changes to New Zealand\u2019s patents legislation. Some, such as the establishment of a M\u0101ori advisory committee, were already included in the bill. The Government is in the process of considering the other recommendations, but no final decisions have been made. The passage of this bill will not prevent any subsequent amendments if the Government decides to accept any of the other recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThese features, together with the other changes introduced in the bill, will provide a simpler and more open environment for innovation to take place in New Zealand. Although patents will be more difficult to obtain, patent owners will have greater certainty that their patents will be valid and enforceable. Those undertaking research and development can be confident that their efforts will not be unfairly restricted by overly broad patents. The Patents Act 1953 also contains provisions regulating the patent attorney profession. These provisions will remain in force for the time being while a single regulatory regime for New Zealand and Australia patent attorneys is developed. I intend to introduce legislation implementing such a regime once it has been developed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the bill and the policy process that led to it, including the members of the Commerce Committee, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, officials, and members of the public and industry representatives who participated in the various submissions and policy processes. I want to particularly thank one of my intellectual property officials, Warren Hassett, who has been working on this bill for over 10 years. I am very pleased to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfe7a15c4a724f3fbb985b9c0476ab23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfe7a15c4a724f3fbb985b9c0476ab23\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E This is a historic day for intellectual property in New Zealand, and Labour supports this bill, the Patents Bill. This bill was introduced on 9 July 2008 by the Hon Judith Tizard. It had its first reading on 5 May 2009, and the Commerce Committee, which was chaired by the Hon Lianne Dalziel, reported back on 30 March 2010. It has had a long journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt has some core principles that underpin it. Those principles are to attempt the balance of two interests: first, to allow innovators to profit from their inventions and, second, to ensure that the monopoly rights that accompany patents are not unduly exploited. New Zealand\u2019s existing patent law is too generous to those people who seek patents. This law has to be updated. It has to be modernised. But we believe that too many corporations have monopoly rights, and many multinational corporations can get patent rights to inventions inside New Zealand that would not be protected overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAs I said, this is a historic day for intellectual property in New Zealand. Our economy is still reliant largely on exports that are weight exports\u2014on products that are loaded on to ships and channelled through our ports. Increasingly, we are seeing a weightless economy emerge, where the new innovators use code as their currency, and where inventions rely on their ability to adapt and adopt technology. They rely on the ability to invent and innovate on the basis of lines of code. Those inventors are our new artisans but they are also our artists, because they build on what has gone before, as do musicians, painters, authors, and dancers. We need to back them. That is why this bill is so important. It sets the framework for intellectual property in New Zealand, and it sets the framework on which we can build more intellectual capital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would like to briefly note some of the comments that were made by the IT industry upon the conclusion of the negotiated settlement around the exclusion of software from being patentable, which is included in this bill. I would also like to again commend the Minister of Commerce for ultimately understanding and being prepared to listen to the industry and for allowing that negotiated settlement, which has resulted in Labour supporting this bill today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe Institute of IT Professionals has thanked the Minister for \u201Cresponding to industry concerns, clarifying the Patents Bill\u2019s intention to remove patentability of software and for taking extra steps to ensure the law around software patents is clear and unambiguous.\u201D The chief executive officer, Paul Matthews, said: \u201CThe patent system doesn\u2019t work for software. We believe it\u2019s near impossible for software to be developed without breaching some of the hundreds and thousands of software patents awarded around the world, often for \u2018obvious\u2019 work. Thus many software companies in New Zealand, creating outstanding and innovative software, live with a constant risk that their entire business could be threatened due to litigious action by a patent holder.\u201D Ian McCrae, chief executive of New Zealand\u2019s largest software exporter, Orion Health, said: \u201CWe welcome the announcement. Under the current regime, obvious things are getting patented. You might see a logical enhancement to your software, but you can\u2019t do it because someone else has a patent. In general, software patents are counter-productive, often used obstructively and get in the way of innovation.\u201D John Ascroft, the Chief Innovation Officer of Jade Software Corporation, said: \u201CWe believe the patent process is onerous, not suited to the software industry, and challenges our investment in innovation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThese are the heavyweights of the new economy in software development. These are the people who needed to be listened to and, thankfully, they were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would also just like to point out that New Zealand is not alone in heading in this direction in our jurisdiction. Our position on excluding software patents has been met with acclaim around the world in IT industries in many countries. Currently the German Parliament, the Bundestag, has adopted a joint motion against software patents\u2014in just recent months. The resolution urges the German Government to take steps to limit the granting of patents on computer programs. The German Parliament said that patents on software restrict developers from exercising their copyright privileges, including the right to distribute their programs as free software. Patents help to create monopolies in the software market, and hurt innovation and job creation. The German Parliament called on the German Government to make sure that free software development was not restricted by patents. That resolution is being discussed currently in the German Parliament and it is looking hopeful that it will progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say that vigilance is required on this issue. Vigilance is required, because I think we have to be watching closely to ensure that this new law provides a sufficient exclusion of software-based patents. Only time will tell that. They are notoriously complex, controversial, and much litigated. There is not even agreement on what constitutes a software patent. Many can be dressed up as business method patents, which are not directly addressed in this amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThat is why we need to remain vigilant. We need to ensure that we do maintain momentum around the boundaries of the exclusion because they will be tested in due course. We have to watch that the Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand and, eventually, the courts do enforce this new law robustly, because there may be a challenge required to ensure that the intention of this new law is upheld. What is clear is that the New Zealand IT community\u2014the new developers, the new economy, those who represent our new economy\u2014will not tolerate patents that threaten software innovation. That is to be applauded, and that is why we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00222586ac0fa62e430a9a10c68b546f8264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222586ac0fa62e430a9a10c68b546f8264\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to stand in support of the Patents Bill at its third reading. In New Zealand a patent may be granted for an invention that is a manner of manufacture. What it does is it gives the patent owner the right to exclude others from making, using, or signing a patent invention during the 20-year term of the patent. When it comes to patents, competition, innovation, and all of these issues it is very complex. Although we want goods to be available for the common good, we also want to protect the interests of people who are inventors and innovators, so that they can get a just and deserved reward for their efforts, and so inspire people to continue to innovate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWe know that our patent law here in New Zealand had become quite outdated. It was based on laws in the United Kingdom. Our Patents Act was established in 1953 and it was based on the United Kingdom\u2019s Patents Act of 1949, so it is well over 60 years of age and no doubt has had amendments all along the way. A complete rethink and a reworking are important as we live in this modern age where we have not only weightless products but also weighed products that need to be protected and recognised through patents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EDuring this time I have no doubt that other members of the Commerce Committee received emails from many people. I thank them very much for their contributions. I thank the submitters who came and spoke to us during the previous Parliament. Their views have been considered. I believe that the Minister of Commerce was right in addressing some of those areas. We need to understand that we live in a complex world where so much information and sharing of ideas occurs. How to do that in an appropriate way that not only protects the originality and the inventors\u2019 interests but at the same time enables innovation to occur is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we need to understand here in New Zealand is that we rely on the rest of the world, incredibly so. Eighty-five percent of what we make we export, and so it is very important for us to have understanding around international treaties. A lot of people emailed and said we were bowing to Big Brother, whoever that might have been, but we understand that these international treaties enable us to reach out into the world with our products. They protect our interests, and very much so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E A lot of good debate has taken place this afternoon around the issues of the Patents Bill, which is before us. It is good to see that we are making progress, and today we shall complete this third reading and enact this law. I want to thank all the members of the Commerce Committee. I am now the chair, and I want to just acknowledge Lianne Dalziel, a former chair, and the work she did as well. I acknowledge the Hon Simon Power, and I acknowledge the Hon Craig Foss for the great work he has done in bringing this bill to the House. I think we have got it right. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022410b306b37e54afe9634f7be14c438ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022410b306b37e54afe9634f7be14c438ac\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E It is with some degree of pleasure that I rise to speak on this Patents Bill. It is very nice to be able to support a Government bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd8b232a5150473c9d81305abc166e84\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc994d6d5055450fae550b66c990126d\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am invigorated, if that is what the member is asking. I am invigorated by this opportunity to speak on the bill. It is with some pleasure that I speak, because this is a Government, as we know, with the worst economic record of any Government in the last 50 years, and it is not often that we get a chance to actually speak in support of some of the policies that it puts through. So you, Mr Speaker, and the members of the House will understand how pleased I am to be speaking on this bill, as a consequence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party believes in the importance of a clean, green, diversified economy that creates sustainable jobs for New Zealanders. The issue we have is that this Government is not creating that kind of economy more generally. We know, for example, that in my home district of Otago there is the highest number of unemployed people in 22 years. There are 7,800 people unemployed currently, and that is not a proud record for this Government. But here we have a genuine attempt, I think, to diversify the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d37eb18f60f424da2b906803c684913\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: You need more mining in Otago. Dig it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ffdfd916b3f41a5ac8100a1ce257e90\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: So I compliment the Government on this. The research and development tax credits are an issue. Mr Bridges across there raises the issue of mining, and no doubt he is trying to draw attention in this context to the cuts at Oceana Gold that have taken place in the last week in Otago under this Government because of its lack of growth generally and because of its poor economic record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut here we have an attempt to genuinely diversify the economy, to look at the issue of patents, and what the right balance is between the interests of inventors and patent owners and the incentives on them to develop and produce new technologies, new ways of doing things, and new ideas, and the interests of society as whole, which we know can result from these new inventions and ideas. We think that this is a good bill because it does attempt to balance those two interests: first, allowing innovators to profit from their inventions; and, second, ensuring the monopoly rights that accompany patents are not unduly exploited. That has got to be recommended to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe absolute novelty test\u2014New Zealand will finally catch up with the rest of the world on that. It means that a patent will be invalid if the invention was not new or was obvious in light of information available anywhere in the world at the application date. So the bill does tighten New Zealand\u2019s overly generous patent law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to just pick up briefly on something that the previous speaker Mr Jonathan Young, the current chair of our Commerce Committee, raised. He raised the issue of Big Brother and tried to frame this debate in terms of international trade, and particularly the Big Brother issue. I think, though, it must be on record that the complaint that New Zealanders have about the process with the passing of the Government Communications Security Bureau Amendment Bill was that it was not properly investigated. The previous illegal spying acts had not been investigated, Mr Young. The Henry report, the leaking of the Kitteridge report, and the various issues and bungles by the Government were not exposed to transparency, and not even to an independent investigation. New Zealanders want to know that their spy agencies are acting in their interests and not in some other interests. It would have been good process for the Government to appoint an independent inquiry to sort out those matters before the law was changed to make illegal what was previously legal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI think it needs to be put on record that these two things are not easily likened and pulled under the same banner. Mr Young is drawing a very long bow there. New Zealanders are not happy with the progress of that bill. But here we are protecting ideas and concepts using patents and protecting the intellectual property that will create the kind of economy we need to ensure a prosperous future for our country\u2014a country that is going to prosper from the likes of the ideas of the HamiltonJet, the Gallaghers of this world, the Scott Technologies, and so on, to make sure that the appropriate protections are in place and the public-good interests are protected in the longer term. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce59c628c4bb462797d354e75d3bb5d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce59c628c4bb462797d354e75d3bb5d1\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the third reading of the Patents Bill. Clearly we are disappointed that the Supplementary Order Papers that take away the ability to patent life or the traits of it and that provide some more support and substance to the committee that would be looking at issues affecting M\u0101ori were not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EBecause the bill\u2014and we are supporting it\u2014has substantive improvements on the previous Act, what is showing up is that the bit that is really missing is around life and around the ability for M\u0101ori to actually have a serious meaningful part, an assured part, in the outcomes. It comes down to that essence of life\u2014right down to the genetic material. I was disappointed to hear that Labour is supporting the bill, because it is supporting genetic engineering effectively, and that is the significant difference here. The bill is a very, very good bill, but it has a lack in that it supports genetic engineering in New Zealand and suggests that that might be a way forward for New Zealand, and it clearly is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI think it is time that New Zealand had a serious discussion around that. We have had significant years where all we have had are field trials, except for one commercial release of something that has not yet been used\u2014a genetically engineered vaccine for equine influenza that has not been used, as far as I know. Everything else has been field trials. Every one of those field trials has had compliance issues, and has had issues of contamination. I have brought over Australian farmers, who have showed what the issue is when they have gone down the genetic engineering track in Australia, and the issues in the community, the conflict in the community, when neighbour contaminates neighbour and actually degrades the value of their crop and degrades the value of their land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI will be visiting another farmer in Western Australia in a couple of weeks who is actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226def4a73ab04443c9866809217302129\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc8917aed8f24c9398bdc5bc6200f9cb\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: His name? You have a look. Google it up. You will be right. I will be visiting him. He is appearing in court, along with his neighbour, supported by Monsanto\u2014David versus Goliath. Why should that farmer have lost the value of his crops just because his neighbour allowed something to drift over on to his place, which has devalued the premium that he and his other neighbours were getting? Why should the councils in that area be subject to clean-up costs because this sort of material has got loose? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI think that is a real question for New Zealand. We have not gone down that track yet, and that is good. We can claim it as a benefit for New Zealand to get a premium for our goods, our primary production in this country. The bill would have been extra special if it had effectively banned genetic engineering from being able to be patented here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224deb1297eee747abb62d3c0431a88cf6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What would the Greens do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200f8ada5c6b049e4971769eea41f85ca\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING\u003C/span\u003E: We have a very good vision, and in New Zealand\u2014remember\u2014we have not got it. We have not got it commercialised in this country now and, according to some, we are doing just fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe have got a vision around sustainability of clean agriculture, clean primary production, and maximising that when we go out to the world, with the best possible value and the best possible brand. Genetic modification has no place in that brand. It is not wanted by consumers internationally. More and more information is coming about the negatives in that. We do not need it for biofuels. We do not need it out in our environment at all. We do not need it in our food, even more. There is a real issue around the amount that might be in our food, but the current Government\u2014in fact, the previous Government as well\u2014was remiss in the level of compliance assurance around what was in our food. We have got GE food labelling laws that are so so, but they are not even being reinforced by auditing or having a check on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe have experts in this country, and I will talk about Jack Heinemann from Canterbury University, who is internationally renowned. He has got a book here, Hope Not Hype: The Future of Agriculture Guided by the International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science, and Technology for Development. This is a big lump of scientists who have looked deeply into these things to see what is actually sustainable for the future, what has gone wrong with this technology in the past, and how we can learn from that. We are so lucky that we have not gone down the track that the US and certain South American countries and a few others have gone down. A number of them are pulling back from it, and regions are pulling back because they are having very negative effects into their environments. They have also had limitations in public-good science because of the patents on organisms. It has reduced the ability to have the absolute best we could get, through medical science, because what is considered to be locking up for innovation, to give rewards to those corporates, ends up being a monopoly, a manipulation, or a strategic measure to block other research and other users out of what is everybody\u2019s\u2014what is life and what belongs to every one of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe support the bill for those really positive things, and, as I say, we are very, very concerned about the major, major gaps in there. They are the ability for M\u0101ori to have some genuine influence on things that matter to them\u2014the essence of life in there\u2014and the fact that we can see life patented. New Zealand could have been extra special there. It is great that we have seen the development around software and computer programs. What a fantastic day it is today when we are going to be voting that through, and that is very, very good. But for the rest of it, it is unfortunate. So as I sit down I will still commend the Minister for the positive parts of the bill, and the rest of our colleagues who are supporting the bill in its major substance. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5a079ce8c9a457ebc8c56044ae996a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5a079ce8c9a457ebc8c56044ae996a4\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak on this, the Patents Bill, and to support the Minister of Commerce, the Hon Craig Foss, and the Commerce Committee, which did some fine work on this bill in terms of getting it through the House process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EPatents are important. I think we have all said that this afternoon. They are important because they are about innovation and advancement. They are about invention, new ideas, and new processes. That is the future of New Zealand\u2019s economy and New Zealand business. Patents are important in that respect. Patents are important because it is appropriate to balance research and development and the interests of innovators and inventors with the interests of users of that technology or patented technology and patents. Although patents protect business innovators, they are also about providing goods and services for consumers and the people of New Zealand. Patents are important because in a small economy like New Zealand, which is becoming increasingly reliant on technology\u2014especially in my electorate of Maungakiekie, where there are high-tech manufacturing companies that rely on intellectual property rights\u2014patents are important for our economy, and they are important for jobs and opportunities in this country, going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EIt is pleasing today that for once this year we have the Labour Party supporting a bill that supports jobs and opportunities, and supporting a bill that supports families and communities out there that need legislation to support our economy. It may be indicative that the Labour Party is supporting this bill because it is currently leaderless, it is currently rudderless, and it is currently in need of some direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe Patents Act is outdated. We have all acknowledged that fact. Patents are not new. In the 1600s the English Parliament passed a Statute of Monopolies that granted new monopoly rights around manufacturing. Our Act was put in place in 1953, so we can see that we are 60 years in the making in terms of changing and updating this Act. I think we on all sides of the House can take credit for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe bill is about bringing our patents legislation and making it more closely aligned with our trading partners and the people whom we do business with across the world. In particular, it is about looking at a single trans-Tasman patents application and examination regime that will bring down the costs of business and bring down the time delays that are involved in patent applications both here and in Australia. So I support this bill because I know that this bill will make a difference to our economy and will make a difference to our communities and to employers and employees out there who rely on this type of technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EMay I finally just acknowledge the Minister and the moves that he made around Supplementary Order Paper 237, which has been talked about. There was wide consultation with the industry and close deliberation, and I think we have a solution around computer programming that is workable, that is realistic, and that will bring positive outcomes for businesses and for inventors alike. So I support this bill because this Government is once again bringing legislation to this House that is promoting the economy, promoting jobs and opportunities, and leading us into the future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002258e20cb238b84773ba7679ef6bf72c6c\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022112d0b34df01416c989479911e12213b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002275c4815223a140ca891314631c8f3de5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c4815223a140ca891314631c8f3de5\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct an answer I gave to question No. 4 in the House this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223819e7ca23ea4b488234942f03fc4791\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? It appears not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b987b990250e44ad863942dd5774e6ac\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: This afternoon in the House I said in answer to a supplementary question that an increase in credit achievement from 24.8 credits in 2011 to 37.3 credits a year later was an increase of 66 percent. The correct percentage increase is, of course, in fact, 50 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b527f9ba1b7d4b70bf1cfbf45f8670af\u0022\u003EPatents Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f76db081a41d42f69ce986212306f6fb\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000841\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u00221e36efc513584b4f97e21924d0c21269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e36efc513584b4f97e21924d0c21269\u0022\u003ETRACEY MARTIN (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to take a very short call on what is a very, very good bill, the Patents Bill, to come through this Parliament. As has already been mentioned, the Patents Act of 1953 needed to move forward with the times. I would like to acknowledge the work throughout the House on creating a workable bill, particularly for the development of patents in the IT area. This is going to be a continually moving feast. This is probably the one area where New Zealand First would agree with all other parties that this is where global legislation\u2014the borders of this industry\u2014is almost non-existent. This is going to be a continual movement around how we protect our intellectual property, the intellectual property of New Zealanders in this country, and the intellectual property of those in other nations who also create the apps and the other computer programmes and technology that we will use in everyday life and have begun to use today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI would like particularly to also support the Minister of Commerce\u2019s acknowledgment of the gentleman who spent 10 years of his life looking at this particular piece of legislation and trying to modernise it so that it is workable and so that New Zealand can, as my colleagues have already said, lead the way in this particular area. I know that the situation has been of major concern to the IT industry here, and I know that it will be pleased to hear this debate. I do, however, want to acknowledge some of the concerns around genetic modification that my Green Party colleague Steffan Browning raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First agrees in part that the branding of New Zealand, which is a niche-market country\u2014we are small and we can never compete on the amount that we produce, but we can compete on the quality of what we produce\u2014is an area that we should give severe consideration to. We should have a wide conversation in this country, with politics taken out of the game, about what is best for us as a nation and the future employment and agricultural outcomes for our country. Again, New Zealand First supports this bill, and applauds the across-House work that has been done to bring this legislation up to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022373d35d1a0ea404b8ac86717cc475ac7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Patents Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000845\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227bd838a72418485bb21c457108426b2e\u0022\u003EFinancial Markets Conduct Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274da20aa96304226ace628b6c39778da\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c8324c74f624d3c8b3ce7de5e1d9ffd\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 9, schedules 1 to 5, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002268e186117c9d4f348f06ac4877da2a9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268e186117c9d4f348f06ac4877da2a9c\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E The Financial Markets Conduct Bill is a very, very large bill with many parts. It is very complex. The tentacles of it go everywhere. It has huge impact on the modernisation, the new sophistication, of financial markets regulation in New Zealand. I acknowledge the Commerce Committee, which originally worked on the bill, and, of course, the consultation that has been going on around this bill out in the finance sector for quite some time to get it to where it is now. Mostly, I think, without exception, the demand of the sector is to know when this bill is to be passed and whether we can get it in place as soon as possible, because, of course, it changes the framework under which all securities, banking, capital raising, reporting, you name it, must operate within New Zealand. It is well overdue in terms of the need for it. Its journey has taken quite some time, but that is a function of constant, ongoing consultation and regulatory review with stakeholders, and there have been changes to the bill as reported back from the select committee. But the substance of the bill is absolutely unchanged. It is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to upgrade and modernise our financial regulation. This bill goes hand in hand with its companion legislation, the Financial Advisers Act, which was passed in September 2008 by the previous Labour Government. This bill is the other part, the right hand of that left-hand bill, or the other way around, if you like. It is absolutely crucial to the modernisation of our financial regulatory scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill has many parts. Members may know that Supplementary Order Paper 220 is something quite different, because it is so large. I think there are about 700 pages of it. Actually, it is basically a revision-tracked bill incorporating the Supplementary Order Papers, to help members work their way through it. Early examples of it have been consulted on widely out there in the financial sector, and not just the big end of town, either, but all stakeholders, from shareholder associations, banking organisations, listed markets, you name it\u2014anyone and everyone involved in the commerce sector. As I noted, it is part of a suite of legislation that is associated with this bill, including the Financial Advisers Act passed in September 2008 under Labour, and some of the latter parts in it refer to the Financial Reporting Bill, which is before the House at the moment. Hopefully, we will be able to progress that pretty soon. The Companies and Limited Partnerships Amendment Bill, amongst others, is also before the House, with one or two yet to be introduced. Each and every single one of those bills is about making the securities, the financial regulatory arrangements, the framework, and platforms within New Zealand not quite leading edge, I suppose, but as good as you could get anywhere in the world. That is what New Zealanders deserve, and that is what they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThese bills are in response to unfortunate activities that happened in the finance sector of New Zealand in the early 2000s\u2014about 2004 to 2008, as the global financial crisis crashed upon us, finance companies failed, and the courts found some activities to be questionable, with prosecutions that pointed to many, many gaps in our legislation. This bill is the second completion of this reform. It does take in lessons of the global financial crisis and the collapse of finance companies, and it is a response to the Capital Market Development Taskforce work of a few years ago. It will play a key role in continuing to rebuild the trust and the confidence in our financial sector for all New Zealanders. I quite openly admit that for some New Zealanders recent behaviours saw the loss of their savings in various organisations, some through investment failure and some, as the courts have shown, through quite deliberate and even fraudulent actions. We need those Kiwis to trust in our financial sector, and we need those who fund New Zealand\u2019s debt to fund our mortgages to trust in our regulatory environment as they send their capital from overseas back into New Zealand. The bill will also enable different ways of raising capital, with pathways of capital from the big end of town, the NZX-listed organisations, right down to unlisted exchanges, alternative exchanges, which are possible, and, most important, crowdfunding and peer-to-peer lending, which I am extremely optimistic will be a very positive growth opportunity for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EYes, it is a bill of considerable technical complexity. It has been the subject of extensive consultation. I would again like to thank all of those who have been engaged, from the pre-drafting stage to the select committee to the parallel process that went on at that stage. We have constantly engaged with officials as we have improved the bill to the form it is in now. There are only three Supplementary Order Papers. One was released in May, I think. It was considerably large and it was, I think, the one that had in it some policy changes. But, again, those changes were in response to consultation and awareness of some issues that were not in the bill as reported back. A Supplementary Order Paper was tabled yesterday or today, and that is generally a technical tidy-up in response, particularly, to the Public Trust changes that Minister Collins brought in recently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI look forward to the debate and discussion on this bill. It is a very organised bill. Different parts deal with distinct parts of the market, how capital is processed and managed, and how signals are sent around New Zealand from, again, the smallest participant, a KiwiSaver investor, a managed funds player, a discretionary investment managed scheme, and the various permutations around those, right up to the large initial public offerings and what a very large company would need to do, the form of its prospectus, and what it will now need to say and declare in conjunction with Financial Markets Authority directives as it is looking to raise substantial amounts of capital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI look forward to the discussion and the debate in the Committee. I understand that the bill is pretty much widely supported, so I hope that continues. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb0f31e31ded4042a32e5a2dd111686c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb0f31e31ded4042a32e5a2dd111686c\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak in the Committee stage of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill\u2014this big kahuna of a bill, which is what it has been described as. I was just looking at the second reading speeches on this bill. At that stage the bill was 500 pages long and now it appears that it is 700 pages long, so in the intervening period an extra 200 pages have been added. I have just been reading the comments made by Minter Ellison Rudd Watts partner Lloyd Kavanagh, who was asked whether it was the big kahuna of financial markets reform and who agreed with that sentiment. He said that it was a complete rewrite of New Zealand\u2019s securities law, and replaced the current Securities Act of 1978, which has obviously been around for more than 30 years. So this bill is a back-to-basics, fundamental change, and, indeed, it is a big kahuna of a bill. I actually do not have the whole bill in front of me, but I think it has also been described as a doorstopper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is a one-stop shop for securities law. It has been designed to provide a more coherent structure and it replaces a number of pieces of legislation, including the Securities Act, the Securities Markets Act, the Unit Trusts Act, the Superannuation Schemes Act, and the non-tax parts of the KiwiSaver Act. It is always important to look at the context of these pieces of legislation, and the Minister of Commerce, Craig Foss, has acknowledged that, ultimately, this bill follows on from the work that was done in the previous Labour Government through the Capital Market Development Taskforce in 2008, which is more than 5 years ago now. So it has taken a long time for this bill to get to that point and to provide that blueprint and action plan for our financial system. Labour is supporting this bill. We are also supporting Supplementary Order Paper 220, which the Minister referenced, which came about after my colleague Clayton Cosgrove proposed a Supplementary Order Paper to the Minister on behalf of the New Zealand Shareholders Association to increase the threshold for wholesale investors from $500,000 to $750,000 and many other amendments. So I am presuming that that Supplementary Order Paper actually equals the 200 extra pages\u2014around about\u2014that have seen this big kahuna bill become even bigger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThere are many aspects to this bill. There are a lot of things to discuss. There are 11 different parts and I am just going to mention some of those tonight in my first contribution on it. Firstly, regulated financial products are going to be categorised as equity securities, debt securities, managed investment products, and derivatives that are based on the economic substance of the financial product and not just its legal form. There is an exceptionally important requirement in this bill for issuers to prepare a prospectus and investment statement. That will be replaced with a requirement to prepare a single product disclosure statement tailored to retail investors, and I would just like to highlight this as one of the single most important outcomes of this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThat means that for retail investors\u2014these are the ordinary investors, and this is one of the reasons that we have gone through this process\u2014the document that they get will contain all the information that they need to make basic investment decisions. This harks back to the financial collapses and the impact that they have had on ordinary investors in New Zealand, right throughout New Zealand, and the absolute, critical importance of people who are investing in a company having that basic information and being able to trust that information. For analysts and experts, they will be looking to an online register, which is like a website, and that will also be critically important because transparency is a really important factor in this bill. It underpins it. There was an enormous amount of discussion around how to ensure that there could be trust in the system and trust for the ordinary investors, the everyday investors out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe bill also beefs up the Financial Markets Authority\u2019s powers. It has a new role to license fund managers and the providers of discretionary investment management services. It also provides a new liability framework and it introduces criminal law, which is reserved for conduct where there is knowing or reckless behaviour, and also a greater use of civil remedies. But that criminal law component to this, for the knowing and reckless behaviour, is providing also an exceptionally important criminal aspect. This means that in respect of the people who have rorted the system in the past, have put up prospectuses that have told people to invest in companies that have not been able to be proved trustworthy, and who have put up celebrity endorsements around those prospectuses and sucked in those ordinary, everyday investors\u2014that behaviour will no longer be tolerated where that is knowing or reckless, and there will be significant criminal penalties as a result. The Companies Act 1993 will be amended to introduce a new criminal offence in relation to the serious breaches of duty of directors to act in good faith and in the best interests of the company and the duty relating to reckless trading. As I said, there will be additional powers granted to the Financial Markets Authority, such as the power to designate financial products and make no action statements, and the current regulatory regime for exchanges will be replaced with a licensing regime for significant non-wholesale markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ELabour started that financial markets reform process. We are very pleased to see that the Government is continuing that good work. I do want to acknowledge Lianne Dalziel, who set up the Capital Market Development Taskforce in 2008 to develop a blueprint and action plan for the development of New Zealand\u2019s financial system. This is an important part of her soon-to-be legacy in this Parliament, and it is something that we should acknowledge. We are pleased that the Government is starting to act on the recommendations in the task force\u2019s report, one of which was having a single market regulator. This work has taken up the time of the Commerce Committee for some years now, on and off. There has been an enormous amount of work that went into it by officials. I want to acknowledge the officials in the Chamber tonight\u2014very impressive and all respect to you. There is going to be a lot to talk about on this bill tonight, and I look forward to taking another call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002292d57fbae6a549d29c0560b3e045a6ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292d57fbae6a549d29c0560b3e045a6ee\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise to speak on this bill, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill. Labour will be supporting this bill. It is a bipartisan approach that has been taken, and that is important because it is actually about the security and stability of our markets. It is a process that has played out over time, as other members have alluded to. I want to start with the main purposes of the bill, because I think it is important that we start at the beginning for those who are at home who may not have yet had a chance to familiarise themselves with this document. The bill is a 700-page document. It is a weighty tome. This is double-sided, for those at home who have not had a chance to have a copy in their hands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231c78875aaf945b19c002569de34140b\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Printed on each page.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d005b40945074db8929b5a327d968500\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: And printed on each side, indeed, Ms Dyson\u2014double-sided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de0548e611724f40bb688874e20c4012\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Thank goodness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864ff2ffcb59449abf10367361c52c40\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The environment spokesperson next to me says \u201CMy goodness.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022926f9a5184014a90a72861c8c2c83a32\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Thank goodness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d18ba516d9345d48839d048ab63a1d2\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thankfully\u2014a smart move printing it on both sides. I am sure it is available electronically as well for those who are that way inclined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe purposes of the bill are to \u201Cpromote the confident and informed participation of businesses, investors, and consumers in the financial markets;\u201D\u2014that is (a)\u2014and \u201C(b) promote and facilitate the development of fair, efficient, and transparent financial markets.\u201D Those two short sentences explain these 700 pages. That is what this bill is trying to achieve and it is good to boil it down to that, because those are then the criteria by which we judge the success of the bill over time, to see whether it really plays out in terms of its own purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOf course, those of us who accept and believe that markets can work well\u2014I personally believe that markets that are well regulated make excellent servants; they find efficient outcomes. But I have a deep concern when I see poorly regulated markets or markets that are not regulated at all, because more often than not they produce terrible outcomes and they make terrible masters. So this is an attempt to make sure that our financial markets are properly regulated. It is the proper business of this House to make sure that they are working in the interests of all of our economy so that it grows over time and we can support the kinds of social services, health services, and education services that we want for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E There are many other aspects of this Government\u2019s economic performance that I could comment on that I am less satisfied with, but this is one where there has been a bipartisan approach, where common solutions and agreements have been found in order to ensure that we have a solid foundation for our markets to exchange information, to provide confidence to investors, and to ensure that capital flows toward its best use. Ultimately, that is what markets are all about. They are all about signalling to investors where capital is most efficiently used for the best returns, if markets are functioning properly and in the interests of consumers and society as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI have not had much to do with the early stages of this bill, but as it has gone on I have engaged with the Supplementary Order Papers that have been put forward and have been very pleased with the way in which, as far as I am concerned, that process has played out. Supplementary Order Paper 220, which has been put forward to increase the investment threshold for deeming an investor to be a wholesale investor from $500,000 to $750,000, is there, along with a number of other amendments intended to ensure that the protections of the bill are extended appropriately. That is something that we commend on this side of the Committee and will be supporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI do also want to commend the efforts of Lianne Dalziel, who set up the Capital Market Development Taskforce in 2008, from which this bill is ultimately derived. That was set up to develop a blueprint and an action plan for the development of New Zealand\u2019s financial system. We are pleased the Government is starting to act on the recommendations in the task force\u2019s report, one of which was a single market regulator. The Labour Government, of course, took a number of measures aimed at strengthening our financial markets, and this process was accelerated by the global financial crisis and the spate of finance company collapses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to speak briefly to the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, because that was one of the things that really triggered a hurry-up of work in this area. There was an extreme failure of monitoring in that case, and possibly $100 million\u2014we do not know exactly, because it has never been properly investigated\u2014of taxpayer money went astray, effectively, due to poor monitoring by the incoming Minister of Finance, Bill English. We know that the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme was kicked off by the Labour Government in response to the global financial crisis. It was put in place with 24 hours\u2019 notice from our Australian counterparts in order to ensure that there was not capital flight from banks. The scheme itself was fundamentally sound in its initial stage. There was incredibly quick movement by officials to cover off that risk and to act in the interests of greater New Zealand. The Ministers at the time with great wisdom put that into place very quickly so that the banking system did not fall over, which would have seen, no doubt, some terrible social consequences for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo it was put in place well, but, unfortunately, we now know that the Minister of Finance did not follow up adequately and demand the reports necessary to show just how wrong that scheme was going. The unintended consequences of that piece of legislation playing out over time without adequate monitoring are well known to New Zealanders. If I just cite some of them, though, the South Canterbury Finance collapse has taken the tally of depositors\u2019 money at risk to over $8 billion. That alone was worth $1.6 billion of taxpayer funds. There were 61 finance companies that failed, and the guarantee of taxpayer money that followed has been a kind of corporate bailout, the likes of which we seldom see in this country. There was a failure of monitoring. The risks grew and grew and grew because the Minister of Finance did not keep a lid on it. The high rate of return attracted investors, and the guarantee of the Crown meant that the deposits were safe for those who put the money in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223096e386b5144d5d88dce900834c0966\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a569c372864441d2a20a765c1cebb297\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is an absolute outrage, as my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard says. Now there are a host of other things the Government cannot afford\u2014or claims it cannot afford. If we had saved those billions through effective monitoring\u2014or at least the several hundred million that could have been avoided through effective monitoring\u2014by the Minister of Finance and if he had been across his portfolio properly at the time, there are many things that we could have afforded now without getting the country into debt at the rate that this Government has been getting it into debt. So that particular example is another example of why it is important to have really good financial markets regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill, in its attempt to make sure that we have clear and transparent reporting requirements, will mean that ma and pa investors see the changes through offer documents. That is the kind of thing that they will see. Prospectuses and investment statements will change. We will have things that are much easier to read, much more accessible, and there will be things kept in the online register. All of this will make it a market that functions more clearly and where retail investors are protected, but the Crown is not putting taxpayer money at risk in the same way and not having to bail out companies for the failures either of the Government to regulate properly or of lending that was not signalled appropriately in terms of its risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt is a substantial bill. As I said at the outset, it has 700 pages. It is aptly described, I think, as a new one-stop shop for securities law. It is designed to provide a more coherent structure. The Ministry of Economic Development says that it will bring us closer to Australian law in some places, and that is, in this case, no bad thing. As I said, the process has been good and the engagement has been good. The changes that have come through to raise that threshold for retail investors were first put forward by the Hon Clayton Cosgrove and were in substance adapted by the Minister of Commerce and added to. The result is a bill that can be accepted across the Committee. It is a bill that takes us forward and that updates Acts that were sorely in need of updating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, here we are in urgency passing something that has been on the books for 5 years, and it was the same with the last bill that we had go through, the Patents Bill. I was out running during the meal break with a friend of mine who is involved in patent law, who saw it as somewhat ironic that this had all been rushed through under the cover of urgency when it had been in the system for 5 years. Again, here we are rushing a bill through under the cover of urgency\u2014albeit a worthy bill and worthy of support, but it shows poor management of the House, I think. That is sad, and requires parliamentarians\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002244f866990f1c4ec5bf75c4ce4ac7426e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244f866990f1c4ec5bf75c4ce4ac7426e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the Committee for this part and the remaining parts of this bill to be considered as one question. Just to make it clear, I would expect you to restate the question so the clock starts for speeches, so that people could still get their full set of speeches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002219a157a29b0446078166e85ca524d720\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219a157a29b0446078166e85ca524d720\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Given the nature of the motion, the question now before the Committee is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f94b11d73047bcaee5220dbbe54a86\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to put the leave first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463351f4a1014622b2fa2a762dcea32e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b407fdd52fa14a95bc856d2e10e01a18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b407fdd52fa14a95bc856d2e10e01a18\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question before the Committee is that Parts 1 to 9, schedules 1 to 5, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part. Those in favour please say Aye\u2014the Hon Trevor Mallard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227b864882d532424d936f8f7bd4696d0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b864882d532424d936f8f7bd4696d0d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I was not really suggesting that you put the question, because I thought one or two of my colleagues might want to take a call on the Financial Markets Conduct Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791b7a90b68e491d9035a2e48775c2af\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I did try, Mr Mallard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57af2492fb84733aa9f665e6e712ae5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am just checking that my colleagues are in fact prepared to do that. If that is the case, I am very happy to defer to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00229331ea25c4a044788757778124edd51f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229331ea25c4a044788757778124edd51f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes people are unseemly in their haste, but thank you, Mr Mallard. I have a question for the Minister of Commerce. I agree that we need to update the forms of disclosure that are made when people have public offerings, be they debt, participatory securities, or equity securities. I agree that the old distinction that we had between investment statements and prospectuses was not working and that anyone who was knowledgable would want to see the prospectus rather than the investment statement. I also believe that prospectuses had become so long and unwieldy, listing all manner of risks in a way that was confusing for investors. When faced with a question as to whether they should invest, they had a long list of risks that was so long it was hard to discern which were the important risks and which were the less significant risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E So I am pleased that we are updating the forms of disclosure that are to be made, but I want the Minister of Commerce to assure me that we are going to be replacing these two documents, one of which was too brief and imprecise and the other was too long and overly detailed, with a document that strikes the balance in the middle. I was in the practice of law for a long time and used to do quite a bit of prospectus work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606c983799564f57b40a48af7b8ed84a\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: You got quite good at it after practising for a while.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213e23cc386d4472bb03c56ca6f20bee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did practise enough so that occasionally I did something right, thanks Ruth. I started doing work, way back when, on prospectuses for what was then the Otago Savings Bank or Trust Bank Otago, and I did prospectus work for a number of other public companies and also a number of public issuers. I was lucky enough to work with people who had been in the practice doing this sort of practice even longer and they showed me the original offer documents for Radio Otago, a matter that my firm had acted in and the people whom I worked with had been promoters of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe original offer documents in respect of Radio Otago could be read by a layperson or an expert. They properly described the nature of the investment, which was an ordinary capital raising. They were open as to the inability to make accurate financial projections, because it was a new venture and therefore was a bit of a punt. They informed people that it was a bit of a punt, and that you could lose your investment, but you could not be liable for anything more. Those documents could be prepared without the firms that were involved in preparation of those documents becoming what one of my subsequent business partners used to call non - risk-taking, profit-sharing partners in capital raisings, because rules became so complex and expensive to comply with that the professionals made as much money out of it or had to charge a lot to meet the compliance costs of what was being required. But in those old days people had a fair understanding of what it was they were investing in, they had the opportunity to invest or not, the company was able to access public capital markets rather than being reliant on a smaller pool of investors being professional investors who met professional investment exemptions, and I think overall it was actually better back then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to have some assurance that these rules here are going to fix the very real problem that we have in respect of ordinary capital raisings in New Zealand. I am not talking about debt securities and finance companies masquerading as being safe when they are unsafe, but in respect of an ordinary capital raising, which is always risk capital, I want New Zealand\u2019s small companies to grow into big companies and in those small companies\u2014and we are a country of small companies, partly because we are a small population\u2014I do not want to prevent the people in those businesses from accessing capital to grow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAt the moment, the first round of capital is the people themselves. The second round is often a mortgage over the house, though obviously there are limits to the amount of capital you can raise through that. The third layer of money for those small companies growing is often family members and friends, and again we should not be preventing that from happening through securities law. But they do need to be able to expand beyond that. We know that for the lenders to these companies it is very hard to borrow money for those companies if you have not got land-based securities, so they are not going to get the money from debt markets or from banks. Effectively, they are reliant on ordinary capital raisings, and I think they should be able to do that from the public rather than just from rich people, both for reasons of lowering their cost of capital and also because I think everyone should have the opportunity to invest in profitable ventures, not just wealthy people. So I would like the Minister to address that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would also like the Minister to address the issue as to whether we are dealing with the additional layers of risk and cost that we have created for directors. The certificates and increasing legal risk that directors face if they become directors of issuer companies have become onerous. That is becoming counter-productive because we want experienced directors to be willing to offer a hand to small companies that are trying to grow, without them having to take on too much personal liability in the event that the company for which ordinary capital has been raised fails. It does happens sometimes and, in respect of that, that is why we do have limited liability companies\u2014to protect directors from some of that risk if they are not acting inappropriately. If we so load the duties on directors that they effectively become guarantors of ventures that go wrong, then we do not get good directors who are experienced and willing to lend a hand and help these small companies grow into big companies for our mutual prosperity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe third issue I would like the Minister to address is whether this fixes the problem of issuer audits being required post issuing to members of the public. At the moment, because of a prior bill that this Parliament has passed in the last 5 years, if you are a public issuer\u2014after you have been a public issuer, you have to have a special issuer audit of the company that assesses performance against prospectus in a way that increases audit costs. Again, that is an inhibition because it increases costs relative to other companies and therefore increases the effective cost of capital and makes it harder for the small businesses to invest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe last question I would like the Minister to answer is what we are doing about, and whether we address through this bill, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, the very small capital raisings, which are at the moment theoretically illegal, through crowdsource funding. It is a really interesting thing that has started to happen through the internet where small amounts of capital\u2014actually, sometimes they are not small amounts of capital, because lots of people put in fifty bucks, and if 100,000 people put in fifty bucks, you have raised $5 million. So these small offerings, which can be effected through the internet now and it is called crowdsource funding, ought to be facilitated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI have absolutely no problem with that. I understand that this bill is meant to facilitate that and I want an assurance about crowdsource funding. I would like to know what the limit is per person. I do not think there should be any limit of the total amount that is being raised. I would like to know what the limit is per person, and if there is any limit on the total, I would like to know, because I do not think it is appropriate. I think that if we had an appropriate limit of, say\u2014I do not know\u2014a couple of hundred bucks that people can take a punt on, if we let them waste that much money on Lotto every weekend, why would we not let them invest that through crowdsource funding in something that could grow the prosperity of our country and bring the jobs and innovations that we need to prosper as an economy and to create job opportunities for the young people? I will leave it at that and I would like to hear from the Minister in respect of those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022e67b06e7c1c24f3a8c6084a22d8e927a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e67b06e7c1c24f3a8c6084a22d8e927a\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do not often rise to talk about bills such as this, but I think this is a particularly significant bill, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, and it is because of the human experience of some people I know that I am moved to speak on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt certainly has been a long time in the making. It started, clearly, with Lianne Dalziel\u2019s efforts as Minister of Commerce when she set up the Capital Market Development Taskforce in 2008. I think that was a significant move at that time because the purpose of it was to design a blueprint, an action plan, for the development of New Zealand\u2019s financial system, and we on this side of the House are pleased that the National Government has started to act on those recommendations. As one of my colleagues said earlier, acting on the recommendations of the task force\u2019s report is something of which we approve. One of those recommendations was a single market regulator, and I might come back to that a little later. It seems to me that even with that work being done in 2008 and the task force being set up, there was a great deal of consultation to do and a lot of people to talk to if this really were to be what it now claims to be, and that is, using the oft-used term, a once-in-a-generation opportunity to get our financial markets right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn 2011, on 12 October of that year, the Minister of Commerce at that time, Simon Power, introduced a large bill of some 560 pages, which progressed the work that Lianne Dalziel had done and the task force had undertaken during those 3 years. Obviously, Simon Power\u2019s aims were the same as ours, and those were to regulate and modernise our financial markets. But, obviously, there was more to do, because there was a large three-part report that recommended that it be passed by Parliament\u2019s Commerce Committee. What we have in front of us tonight is an additional Supplementary Order Paper 220, which Labour supports, and which has now taken the bill out to nearly 700 pages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to focus on some of those things that are going to be of most importance to the people whom I know, and I will draw on my experience in Nelson in particular for this. This is a substantial bill, and before I begin to go into some of its effects, I have acknowledged Lianne Dalziel, I have acknowledged the Hon Simon Power, and I would like to also acknowledge the Hon Craig Foss and the work he has done to bring this forward. As I say, it has been a long time coming. I also want to pay tribute to officials who have engaged in what\u2014although I have not been part of it\u2014I understand has been a very substantial consultation process. All of that is required if we are going to regulate our financial markets in a way that makes them fair, efficient, and transparent. That is one of the purposes of this bill\u2014to set up and regulate fair, efficient, and transparent financial markets. The bill has taken the financial markets from the ground up and rebuilt a framework that can regulate, monitor, and scrutinise the operation of our financial markets. It has been a back-to-basics reform, and I think that it is overdue, but none the less I welcome it for all that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe are all familiar with stories of people, particularly retired people, whose savings went up in smoke when various financial houses collapsed over the last few years. Those stories, without exception, have been tragic. One of the things that I consider to be a really important benefit of this bill is the effect it is going to have on what we commonly call ma and pa retail investors. They are ordinary, regular New Zealanders who think that in their retirement in particular, savings they have put away over a long period of time\u2014over decades of a working life and perhaps after the sale of one large property and moving into a smaller property\u2014will have released funding to them that they are now able to invest. Unscrupulous or incompetent finance houses have taken advantage of people who have seen much of their savings go up in smoke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EOne of the key changes that will make a difference to these people in the future is offer documents, which are currently known as prospectuses and investment statements. What we will have is a product disclosure statement. The requirements are to simplify the product disclosure statement to a couple of pages that set out and explain the basics of what is on offer and what the risks are of investment, and then to set out a whole lot of questions, and those questions can be established in regulations. Those questions can be answered in clear, concise, and effective language. If people who have no particular skills in the operation of financial markets are to have any confidence that the remainder of their savings is not to go up in smoke, this will be one of the devices that gives them confidence and starts to build that confidence that is required if New Zealand is going to deepen its wafer-thin domestic capital that is available, particularly for new businesses that need investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe have a prospect of new businesses developing, particularly in clean technology. If our exciting inventors and their businesses can be accompanied by a clear, regulated product disclosure statement, then people who may wish to invest a small amount or a large amount of money will be able to do so with clarity and with certainty about what they are doing and the risks that are attached to their investment. They can proceed with some trust and confidence. This is the trouble now: there is very little confidence and trust in financial markets. We have seen some extraordinary cases come before the courts in recent times of people whom none of us would ever have dreamt would appear in the courts on charges relating to misconduct in financial markets. What we desperately need to do because of those events and because of the collapse of financial houses is to invest, ironically, some confidence back in the operation and, most important, the regulation of financial markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESo the fairness, the efficiency, and the transparency of financial markets comprise one of the two driving purposes of this bill. On our side of the House we are pleased that we started it, and we are pleased that this Government is finishing it. I commend it to the Committee. Thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00227047e979458a4bc5ab656f98b733b26c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227047e979458a4bc5ab656f98b733b26c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on this bill, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill. If you have a look at it, it might look like a doorstop, but, actually, reading through it, I feel that it is more like a finger in the dyke of the financial challenges facing the world at the moment. Labour does support it, because it is necessary, but when I go through and read that the bill does not adjust current legislation in regard to insider trading, market manipulation, security holder disclosure, and continuous disclosure provisions, I am concerned that perhaps it does not go far enough. But it is a step in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have to acknowledge the Hon Lianne Dalziel, a predecessor of the Hon Craig Foss, who initiated this process. The Capital Market Development Taskforce in 2008, which gave rise to this legislation, was necessary because there has been a lack of faith in the capital markets in this country, for very good reason. Small investors have, quite frankly, been ripped off time and time again. This legislation is necessary. It makes a huge number of changes, but I point out to the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Commerce, that I am concerned that some key provisions in commerce law and disclosure requirements have been omitted from major change and improvement. In a small country like New Zealand, that may continue to provide uncertainty and a lack of trust, although, as I say, the bill goes a long way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI would just like to ask the Minister something. I guess we can, as politicians, make judgment in this area. We are next to car salesmen and, I guess, financial advisers in terms of reputation, and so we can look at one another very, very critically and ask why we are not doing better. If I go to clause 19, \u201CFalse or misleading representations\u201D, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 220, I have to say that it is really concerning that we have people, or we have had people, I guess\u2014we are making changes\u2014who were able to get away with this for so long. But we are making changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I question is how bank employees will be treated under clause 19 in terms of products that have any \u201Csponsorship, approval, endorsement, performance characteristics, accessories, uses, or benefits\u201D. Look, it is well known in the banking sector that there are bonuses for people. One particular area that I am pursuing, and that the Commerce Commission is currently looking at, is that of swap loans. They are financial products that have been offered, not, as we have often referred to here, in taking people\u2019s money for investment but actually providing capital, in a similar way, though, and I presume they will be under this umbrella and under this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EFirstly, if the Commerce Commission does indeed identify some false or misleading activity, will those banks or the individuals involved be challenged through this legislation or the previous legislation? There are issues of timing there that I think are quite important. I think that having disclosed\u2014perhaps at the end of this year, early next year\u2014there is the question of what process will then follow in respect of banks that, in my view, have indeed engaged in false and misleading information in the sale of swap loans to a large number of farmers, some small-business people, and some horticulturalists across this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI await the outcome of the Commerce Commission investigations with some enthusiasm, because unless we get on top of those products and unless we pass this legislation, which is indeed why Labour is supporting it, we will continue to have small investors who lose their life savings and people who use financial products that are unsuitable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMy question\u2014and I go back to it for the Minister\u2014asks why we have not perhaps improved the areas of disclosure, insider trading, and market manipulation. We indeed have a small country. The objective of getting, I guess, more trades on to the capital markets is a good idea, initiated by my colleague. I do not think she intended it to go so far as the current Government has gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00227e254a69adb54999bfd9860e33bcc5ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e254a69adb54999bfd9860e33bcc5ec\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call in support of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, having enjoyed working with colleagues on it at the Commerce Committee. The bill is a fundamental rewrite of our securities law. It will change what the public sees about every investment that they make. The current investment statement will be replaced by a simplified and shortened product disclosure statement, backed up by more extensive information, which will be placed and made available on websites. It brings into the net of securities law a number of products, be they housing-related schemes or schemes by the acronym of \u201CDIMS\u201D, which I will not be spelling out in the Chamber, so that previous carve-outs, which allowed certain subsets of schemes to run along different standards, will be brought within the general net. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis is a doorstop full of paper. It is almost as big as the Income Tax Act and it is every bit as complex. This is one of those jobs where we poor mortal politicians recognise the limitations of our expertise and our reliance upon the excellent advice that we traditionally get from our professional advisers. More than that, it is incumbent upon the Committee to note the broad thrust of this and to be able to deal with issues of detail as they are surfaced by the advice process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe reason we are doing this is operations like South Canterbury Finance, which burnt nearly $1.5 billion of the public\u2019s money and the Government\u2019s money. Hanover Finance, Bridgecorp, Ross Asset Management, Blue Chip, and Cynotech Holdings are all examples of companies that have\u2014shall we say\u2014met an unfortunate financial end and taken with them the life-savings of thousands of New Zealanders. That shall not be repeated. It is incumbent on this Committee to make sure that the laws we are working on tonight are such that they are up to the job of keeping our financial markets safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe reason why the gentlemen and ladies in blue on the far side and the gentlemen and women in red here are joining together to pass this bill is that there is a common principle here, which is that we understand that having integrity, visibility, and regulatory frameworks around our financial markets creates a win-win for both sides of the market. If markets are transparent, if they are well regulated, and if they are fair, that is better not only for consumers and investors but also for business owners. The interests of capital and the interests of investors are actually aligned around good, strong, clear financial markets regulation. That is what this doorstop, this brick, of legislation that we are putting on the Table today is designed to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt would be remiss of me, however, to note the passage of this bill without also noting the global financial crisis. The biggest change since the mid-1970s oil shock has been the fact that there has been a fundamental revision of the literature of economics, of the public policy framework around financial markets, and, in particular\u2014and it is a big part of this bill\u2014of our attitude towards derivatives. Do you know that a dog could have got a home mortgage in the US 5 years ago, before the global financial crisis? A family pet could get a mortgage. Do you know what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dfb70a2bd184c38beb37ad268eaf115\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve got traffic tickets in New Zealand. Bob Jones\u2019 dog got a traffic ticket\u2014a parking fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a296601e39485bb72f1883841698d0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: That was probably because he drove him home. We have got an opportunity here to update our legislation to take account of the shifting sense of global financial markets. That is not a small change; that is a big change. They have failed investors, they have failed consumers, and they have failed savers. So much of what used to be taken for granted by the blue team, in particular, is now down the toilet. The assumption that markets work perfectly, the assumption of rationality, and the assumption of self-regulation have been blown out of the water by the fact that a dog could get a home mortgage in the United States.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00229bf8f543db3845569246634e94a88077\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bf8f543db3845569246634e94a88077\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak to a particular part of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill that I focused on a lot when I sat on the Commerce Committee over all of those months and over all of those years. We heard evidence from everyday investors who came before our committee, who told us about losing their life-savings, and who cried in front of our committee. We heard those stories and saw those people up front and face to face, which is something that every select committee should try to do. They should meet with and hear from the people who are affected by lapses in law and gaps in law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt was an important, critical part of this bill that we address the criminal liability. I acknowledge the comments of my colleague David Parker earlier around the job that we had on that select committee not only to ensure balance, as select committees often do, but to ensure that there was not a chilling effect occurring for directors of companies. We had to ensure that they would not be put off because they would think that they might end up before the courts, or even in jail, for the issuing of material that was not fully correct. But the fact was that over the period of years when these financial companies collapsed, and we know that that effect was escalated into our communities and affected so many people, there had to be significant measures put in place that would be a deterrent to that kind of behaviour\u2014to the reckless and knowing behaviour of unscrupulous people who were, essentially, ripping off ordinary New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe have argued throughout this process that perhaps it has not gone far enough, as in this country people who are convicted of offences like burglary can be treated more harshly than those who destroy huge amounts of wealth through reckless and dishonest business practices, but I would like to say that there is a key change in this bill. It is that the issuer and the director are criminally liable for misstatements in their disclosure documents, but only if the Crown proves a subjective fault element, and that is the reckless, knowing behaviour\u2014they had to know what they were doing and it was not a mistake. If it was a mistake, there is still liability, but it comes into the civil area. It does reduce the scope of criminal exposure, but the maximum punishment has increased, to 10 years\u2019 imprisonment and a $1 million fine for an individual, and a $5 million fine for a body corporate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EPromoters\u2014this was an issue that I particularly focused on. People who invest and make decisions to invest as everyday investors do so often because they trust the person telling them that they should invest. Often those promoters have been celebrities\u2014people whom New Zealanders have trusted. There have been countless examples of that. We were told by almost all of the submitters, including those ordinary, everyday New Zealanders who appeared before us, that they trusted those people and that they felt ripped off. The promoters of statements are also criminally liable, and I think that that is right. I think that if you are a celebrity, and you stand up and go on television or whatever and have your face all over the place saying \u201CTrust me.\u201D and telling people to invest in such and such company, then you should know what you are doing and you should take responsibility. This bill ensures that they will take responsibility, and I think that is right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAt the same time, though, there is an important set of principles underpinned in the criminal liability area. They are that the regime should not discourage capable, prudent people from becoming directors through overly punitive sanctions; that companies should be able to attract directors with a diversity of skills and backgrounds; that the directors should be able to focus mainly on business strategy and supervising management, rather than on compliance and minimising liability; that directors should supervise capital raising and exercise due diligence in relation to offer documents; that they should be liable for civil pecuniary penalties and should compensate investors who lose money if they fail to perform their duties; and that they should not be liable to imprisonment where there is a no-fault element. Those principles, as I understand it, have remained in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThey are important principles because they are the principles that protect directors from that chilling effect\u2014from the fear that if they slip up or if there is a mistake made, they might end up in the clink. It is important that they do not, but it is also important that the ones who are reckless, the ones who are dishonest, and the ones who know that what they are doing is wrong are accountable and that they end up in the clink. I would like to see that happening. I would like New Zealanders to be able to be reassured that if they invest their money in a company that is dodgy and tells them lies, then it will be held accountable. If there is one thing that I think is in this tome of a bill, it is the mechanism to ensure that that happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229b5909df483e43df8288db5175eb5bc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b5909df483e43df8288db5175eb5bc9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make just a few brief comments on the Financial Markets Conduct Bill\u2014really I have got just a couple of points to make. The first is\u2014and, again, it is probably a generational sign\u2014that I regret that we are in an age now where it is less easy to take people\u2019s word than it used to be when I was younger, when, especially in the financial markets, people\u2019s words were bonds. I think that most members know I had some pretty extensive experience with a family sharebroking firm. For the vast majority of that time, people\u2019s deals, which were worth probably hundreds of thousands of pounds or hundreds of thousands of dollars, were done on someone\u2019s word, and there was not even a handshake\u2014you know, it was done down the phone. I think it was a different age. Unfortunately, what we have seen over a period of time has been some changes where it is less easy to rely on people\u2019s word, and therefore there is a need for this sort of regulatory measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to make is really in support of comments made earlier by my colleague David Parker, and that is that I think we do need to keep looking towards opportunities for relatively easy capital raising within New Zealand. It is my view that there is quite a lot of interest in this. I am going to again go back just a decade or so and use the example of the old Industrial Research Ltd, which is now part of Callaghan Innovation. In one of its earlier lives it made a scientific discovery to do with immunity. Because it was not given the money to develop the discovery or maybe it got too big for it, it ended up selling the discovery off to an American farmer and a company called BioCryst. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EA lot of the locals in the Hutt, and particularly in Wainui\u014Dmata\u2014because, as many people know, Wainui\u014Dmata has one of the highest proportions of scientists and PhDs in the country\u2014knew that this thing had a chance of being a seriously good investment because of the way that the sharemarket worked and the ability to invest relatively small amounts in the US market, even a decade or so ago. A number of people\u2014dozens of people, sometimes forming clubs and sometimes just as individuals\u2014were investing through a local company in this company, which I think is called BioCryst, which was listed in the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhat it showed to me was that there were people around who were actually prepared to save up their TAB money or save up their Lotto money, accumulate a few hundred dollars, and invest it in something that they thought had a real opportunity of making a difference. The point that I have made to my colleagues in the past, and certainly to people involved in the development of this legislation\u2014people like Simon Allen, who was involved at the earlier stages\u2014is that I think there is a place for much easier backing of Kiwi ideas than most of us give credit for. I think that there is a role through this sort of legislation for what is now described as crowdfunding. Of course, 5 or 6 years ago we had not heard that term, but I think it is a good way of putting money together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other point that I would make is that we also have to look to our institutions in New Zealand to keep on providing information to the market. I refer in particular to the Superannuation Fund and the ACC, which do quite a lot of research into relatively small organisations. I think one of the faults that we have in our system is that a lot of people who could be investors\u2014either as individuals or as syndicates or other groups, or through other investment vehicles\u2014do not get the information that is available within the system because somehow the Superannuation Fund or the ACC get scared that they might be considered investment advisers by publishing the information that they have collated. I think it is a question that we need to look at because my view is that markets could be better informed. We have got to make sure that that can happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIf that happens, people like those in Wainui\u014Dmata who invested in BioCryst can, in fact, pick up the other good ideas that are developed in New Zealand. A lot of these ideas would of course have to go offshore because the funding involved just has to be massive. But my view is that the longer you can hold them and the bigger the proportion of New Zealand investment, then the better off as a country we will be. We have seen it in Australia with their superannuation funds and the way that that works. They are a lot wealthier as a result of being able to do investment in their own country, and now of course in our country, and as a people they are much wealthier as a result. I think we are poorer as a result of not having a financial system that works in an adequate manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 337 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 220 in his name be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 220 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 9 as amended, schedules 1 to 5 as amended, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 338.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e5168dc83204c3daab17127f7672781\u0022\u003EFinancial Markets Conduct Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e5168dc83204c3daab17127f7672781\u0022\u003EFinancial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002243a3d3f983644663a1c0884581431c85\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022eca5dafffb56467ead406d70e4c45a09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eca5dafffb56467ead406d70e4c45a09\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill be now read a third time. The legislation is a major milestone in the reform of New Zealand\u2019s capital market regulation. It modernises and makes substantial changes to New Zealand\u2019s securities laws. These set many of the rules for how financial products and financial services are offered to the public and how they are governed and operated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe legislation has two main purposes. It aims to promote the confident and informed participation of businesses, investors, and consumers in the financial markets, and it aims to promote and facilitate the development of fair, efficient, and transparent financial markets. These are vital outcomes for New Zealand businesses, vital to have access to the capital they need to grow, and they are critical for investors to benefit from financial markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe current securities laws are not fit for purpose. The main law this legislation replaces, the Securities Act 1978, is 35 years old. The legislation consolidates five other pieces of legislation. As well as responding to the massive changes that we have seen in the financial markets over recent decades, this legislation is informed by more recent lessons of the global financial crisis and our experiences with the collapse of the finance companies. It implements many of the recommendations of the industry-led Capital Market Development Taskforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI will mention some of the main changes this legislation makes to financial markets regulation. The legislation replaces the requirement for issuers of financial products to prepare a prospectus and an investment statement. Issuers will now prepare a single product disclosure statement, which will set out the key information that retail investors need to know before they invest. The legislation proposes a system of escalating liability from infringement notices for minor breaches through to civil pecuniary penalties of up to $1 million for individuals and $5 million for companies. There are criminal penalties of up to 10 years\u2019 imprisonment for the most egregious conduct. A new licensing regime is established for specific financial sector participants. These include fund managers, discretionary investment management services, and derivative issuers. The legislation also overhauls the regulation of managed investment schemes such as KiwiSaver schemes by providing a consistent set of duties on fund managers and supervisors and stronger governance requirements. These are vital steps to bring retail investors back into the markets and make more capital available to growing firms, whatever their size. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe legislation makes a number of changes to make it easier and cheaper to raise capital. It enables the introduction of new forms of capital raising, such as peer-to-peer lending and crowdfunding, and it provides new exemptions for small offers and employee share schemes, which will be of particular benefit to small, growing companies. The legislation introduces a new system for the regulation of securities exchanges. This will include allowing the development of low-cost exchanges that support capital raising by small and medium sized enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIn summary, this legislation aims to strike a balance that works for both issuers and investors. Only by providing the right kind and degree of regulation will we see our financial markets make their full contribution to the New Zealand economy. I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaf98d90a63c41febb0ff804af36e4ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaf98d90a63c41febb0ff804af36e4ab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Can I begin by saying that I think we agree on all sides of the House to a response to some of the terrible behaviour that we saw in respect of debt securities, where finance companies pretended to be safe when they were not. They pretended that they were secure investments, when often the debt security that was being offered was a secondary security with a first mortgage security lying ahead of the effective security that investors had when investing in finance companies. There were often earlier debentures and earlier mortgages over the properties that the finance company lending was itself secured over when the finance company lent out the money that the people invested. After those problems, we had to do something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESome of the problems that we had in respect of finance companies were in breach of the existing securities law, and were just poor practice under that. We had related party loans that were not properly disclosed. We had misrepresentations. We had false prospectuses being signed off by directors, and some of that has had criminal and civil consequences for some of the errant directors involved. We had poor audit practice at some times, and some of the statutory supervisors who oversee finance companies under the existing regime did not cover themselves with glory either. Having said all of that, it was also obvious that we needed to strengthen the law in respect of debt security offerings. We also needed to update the law relating to ordinary capital raisings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of issues that have been raised in the Committee stage that I should comment on. One is a reference to Ross Asset Management. My understanding is that the essential problem in respect of Ross Asset Management is still not fixed. I do not think this legislation addresses it. This is no criticism of the Minister of Commerce. But the essential problem with Ross Asset Management is that we had one person who was effectively acting as a manager for lots of different people and he did not have any requirement to have any board structure or other people overseeing his decisions. He was effectively sitting there as an agent for these people and giving them individual advice. When you have lots of money effectively under management, tens of millions of dollars\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a2371dbaac14419a5cbc520d8419c34\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: He was also custodian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff463b04be44f8eac0f0de5449d327c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: He was also a custodian?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5cba7856fec43e4b34f176fe27648ac\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242b763f8e5a84750ae8f8b812d19fee1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: So he might be caught as a custodial trustee, but my understanding is that there is no obligation for someone who has got management of lots of different people\u2019s moneys\u2014and it could be all of their life-savings\u2014to have some sort of decision-making structure that would involve a board. There is no prospectus involved, because he is not offering securities to the public, or whatever the new offer document equivalent is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e3014540584dcf947c982bf1ad7c2e\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Changes to the DIMS regulations, which affect that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec740bf8f644042a86d3b23d098b095\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, there are changes to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620890f9805e4f9b9a87f9193518160f\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: DIMS regulations, which affect\u2014there are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854f91e91213493dbf869dc8a4b52533\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Discretionary investment management services regulations partially affect that. I have been contacted by a member of the financial services sector who is saying that this is still an area that needs further reform because, notwithstanding those changes, the Ross Asset Management debacle could actually occur again and not be prevented by the legislation that we are about to pass. It is not a criticism of the Government or the prior people who started this work, which was started by Labour. You cannot think of everything. You cannot deal with everything in respect of one bill. But I do not think that we should pretend that the Ross Asset Management injustice that has been caused is completely fixed by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of getting the balance right between properly protecting unsophisticated investors and debt securities you have to at the same time not be over-regulating ordinary capital raisings. I have heard the response in respect to my question as to what the position is in respect of crowdsource funding was. I have been referred to clause 388 of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, which then refers to clause 6 of schedule 1 of the bill saying that through that route there is an ability to exempt some forms of crowdsource funding from some of the requirements of ordinary capital raising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would say, with respect, that I think we actually will in the future have to revisit that, because I do not even see why you should have to run that gauntlet in respect of raising from members of the public small amounts of money not much more than some people waste at Lotto shops in the weekend. I do not see why people should have to crawl through and obtain exemptions, and show that they come within those exemptions, rather than just having a statutory exemption that says crowdsource funding\u2014somehow defined\u2014of $100 or $200 per investor is not caught by these regulations. That would be a really simple way to carve out that. So maybe we should come back to that. Again, this is no criticism of the Government because, effectively, crowdsource funding is just something that has sprung up as a consequence of the internet in the last year or two. I did not know that it existed until about a year ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a2b936ceae4f51b3c8bdad0174fa93\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of that\u2019s in the regs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022229b042a4a6e4154a999752ff15fb9a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of that is in the regulations. So the regulations might actually be able to do that in a simple way. It would be really good. Thank you, Minister, for that intervention. It might be that the regulations can actually have a very simple solution that just completely exempts that sort of capital raising for ordinary capital for small amounts without any regulatory burden. That would be fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea46e46f2ec64f778f081f2955c46c7d\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s some, but not as nearly as heavy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbd1bea6d587480fab6286c0f3426d92\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right. The Minister says some. I am not sure that there is a need for any in respect of that. I certainly do not want them to have to have issuer audits going into the future or higher director duties than would apply to companies that had not raised money from the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs you will hear from my interventions now and earlier, I have a real concern that in a country of small businesses we do not over-regulate ordinary capital raising, and that includes at all levels of the capital raising. With those comments, I congratulate the Minister of Commerce and the prior Ministers from both sides who have been involved in bringing this to fruition. I hope that, as a consequence, New Zealand investors in debt securities can have more confidence that they are not going to lose their life-savings if they invest in debt securities, and that we facilitate the prosperous expansion of the New Zealand economy through appropriately regulated\u2014but not over-regulated\u2014capital raisings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00228d1f60b2574747acaa8f3cc6a20dee29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d1f60b2574747acaa8f3cc6a20dee29\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to stand and speak on the third readings of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill. They are certainly significant\u2014not only in their size but in their importance in terms of legislation for this country. We know that the backdrop to this was the collapse of the financial markets, and the global financial crisis that happened in 2008 and 2009. The fact is that many New Zealanders not only lost their savings but lost their confidence in the markets and also in investment, and it dried money up, certainly, during that period of time. I guess in many regards people returned to bricks and mortar and sought to invest in areas where they had some sense of security, which, I suppose, contributes to some of the housing affordability issues that we face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThis legislation has taken what has been termed a once-in-a-generation opportunity to rewrite our securities laws. I believe that we have come up with a very coherent and comprehensive set of laws that will be supported, I believe, by regulation that will work well in the market place. That is so important because we want the market place to be free, to be accountable, and also to have the effect of being able to attract and release investment from people but into companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe Financial Markets Conduct Bill is a key pillar in the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda. It helps to achieve one of the Government\u2019s keys to building a more competitive and productive economy. It is a very important part of that. This bill\u2014this law, when it comes to pass\u2014will promote informed participation of businesses, investors, and consumers in our financial markets. It will foster fair, efficient, and transparent financial systems that are crucial to our future prosperity as a country. It is good to see that we have progressed so quickly tonight through these stages\u2014the Committee stage and now the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIt is crucial that we ensure that this legislation strikes the right balance between holding people to account, while encouraging businesses to come to market. Vibrant financial markets must work for all participants, and that has been one of the driving factors behind this legislation. Key proposals in the Financial Markets Conduct Bill have included, in Part 2, an introduction of prohibitions on misleading and deceptive conduct generally in financial markets. I think New Zealanders out there generally would say it is a good thing that we have that, and would welcome those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EPart 3 replaces a requirement for issuers to prepare a prospectus and investment statement, with a requirement to prepare a single product disclosure statement tailored to retail investors, and prohibits false and misleading statements in product disclosure statements. That is very important. It is important that people out there can get something concise but also very informative about the product they are going to invest in. There is nothing like receiving 150 pages and thinking: \u201CThat is just so intimidating. I am not going to be able to read through it, so I will not try.\u201D There is nothing like receiving a document that is full of jargon and abbreviation as well, to confuse people. So these product disclosure statements will be concise, clear, and coherent to retail investors. I am sure that there will be sophisticated professional investors out there who will not need that level and who will be very happy to proceed with perhaps even what they have been used to. But certainly we want to make information accessible to retail investors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EPart 4 strengthens the governance of regulated products. It introduces stricter requirements for managed investment schemes, including new duties on fund managers and supervisors, and stronger governance requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI believe that there is much that can be said and will be said by different speakers in this debate, but by and large the Commerce Committee worked on this not only with officials\u2014and I say thank you to them; they did a tremendous amount of work\u2014but also with people in the market place, with investors, and also with issuers and professionals. There was a tremendous sense of working together to try to find the right solution in this particular area. I believe that we have done a good job that will serve New Zealand well in times to come. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffff219d87e74e5fb1cd7e59f2420eeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffff219d87e74e5fb1cd7e59f2420eeb\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I too want to congratulate those who have worked on the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, following on from that contribution from the chair of the Commerce Committee, Jonathan Young. I identified with his comments about 150 pages of jargon. It sounds like our select committee papers that we get on a Thursday morning. No one wants to wade through that if they do not have to, it is fair to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis legislation is an attempt to make sure that retail investors and ordinary folk who do wish to get into this space have the kinds of protections that they ought to be offered. It is about transparency and the efficient functioning of markets. So I want to congratulate Ms Dalziel, Ms Curran, and others who have worked on this over a period of time, and the Minister of Commerce, Mr Foss, for guiding this through the House. There is a huge amount of detail in these bills, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill, and in the legislation relating to securities law\u2014over 700 pages, as many have pointed out\u2014here in this pamphlet that we have before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe purposes of the bill are commendable, being to promote the confident and informed participation of businesses, investors, and consumers in the financial markets. That cannot be argued against. Nor can the other main purpose, which is to promote and facilitate the development of fair, efficient, and transparent financial markets. Markets are after all a source of information to guide capital flows, so that capital flows to its most efficient point. That underpins good economic development, so we commend the purposes of these bills. The way it flows out means that Labour will be supporting these bills through their third readings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOf course there are plenty of other areas that the Government is neglecting. This is a part of the economic picture. The markets and the effective functioning of markets are the starting point for many, but there are other policies that guide the economy as a whole that are not contained within this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt has taken 5 years to get this particular legislation to the House and it is strange that we are passing it under urgency. That perhaps speaks to some poor House management, as with the previous bill, the Patents Bill. Nevertheless, we commend the actual material within it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8d214842d8489cabd6c0e7998b39de\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: You said that last speech. Say something different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f8cd657434248a6951b319771ee43b0\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Lotu-Iiga is right. I need to raise this new material about the general direction of Government policy, which does not deal with the bigger issues of monetary policy reform. It does not really shape an export-led recovery and it does not deal with savings and the capital depth issue. We are talking about transparency here\u2014where capital flows to\u2014but the actual capital depth problem that we have as a country, where we do not have the savings that other countries have to support an export-led recovery, is a concern that this Government seems to sidestep time after time, after time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ELikewise, with pro-growth tax reform we know\u2014a capital gains tax\u2014that the OECD, the IMF, every other Western country, a former Treasury head, and so on all say that New Zealand should have that kind of pro-growth tax reform. It should have a capital gains tax and it should have research and development tax credits. But this Government has its head in the sand. At least it is sorting out these nuts and bolts, and for that I want to commend this Government\u2019s work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOf course, it was started by a Labour Government and let us not forget that. Labour started the financial markets reform process and we are pleased that the Government is continuing our good work. Of course, Lianne Dalziel set up the Capital Market Development Taskforce. This will be something of her legacy as she leaves this place. That was set up in 2008 to develop a blueprint and an action plan for the development of New Zealand\u2019s financial system. So we are pleased that the Government is acting on this, and acting on the recommendations of the task force\u2019s report, one of which was a single market regulator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Labour-led Government, of course, took a number of measures in the wake of the financial crisis and the spate of finance company collapses, which accelerated these measures. The Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme is, of course, still fresh in people\u2019s minds as the Government bailed out South Canterbury Finance to the tune of $1.6 billion in taxpayers\u2019 funds. That was largely due to poor monitoring. We do not know the extent that that was due to poor monitoring. We do know that the company\u2019s dodgy loan book increased 25 percent in 4 months at one stage and that the Minister of Finance did not have oversight of that and did not request the appropriate briefings, although he could have got them through Treasury and from the Reserve Bank about the state of those dodgy loan books and the kind of risky lending that was being done against the blank cheque of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo we know taxpayers have forked out hundreds of millions of dollars unnecessarily in the case of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme. Of course, Labour put in the scheme. Let us not forget that Labour put it in, in a 24-hour period, to address the issue of a run on banks. The basic premise was sound. We know that, but it was not monitored, and it is the failure of monitoring by this Government that has cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the Government was too afraid to investigate it. It did not really want the light of day on that poor monitoring because it would have reflected badly on the current Government, and I think it owes New Zealanders an apology on that front. It really does owe New Zealanders an apology on that. I hope that some member from the National benches will apologise for the hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars that have been lost unnecessarily through that Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, and particularly, through the failure of monitoring of the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269fa6a47a1df40b79ba544579d85ba97\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll apologise for Cullen. Cullen brought it in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1eb176aaaaa45beb637cd0b99c70f23\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, Mr Lotu-Iiga. It is the failure of monitoring that is the problem, not the scheme itself. Of course this Government did not remove the scheme, because it knew it was a good scheme. But it did fail to watch it closely. Of course, I do not say this on my lonesome. This is something that the Auditor-General, Lyn Provost, drew attention to in her report. That begs many questions and it has just been swept under the carpet. This poor, poor oversight of the scheme has been swept under the carpet by this Government because it knows it would be incredibly embarrassing to see exposed to sunlight those hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars that went away without any real investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOf course, the Finance and Expenditure Committee did request that Treasury come before it to explain what had happened in that failure of monitoring, after the Auditor-General\u2019s report revealed the extent of the issue. The then chairman was very keen to sweep it under the table. I expect we may get an apology out of him later in the piece. I am certainly hopeful as I look across the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c00f82ca1db4be186fb3a092adf6cce\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry for the speech. A sorry speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba0a2c6e028145eea45e99e6f5531c92\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: He says that he is sorry for the speech. That tells you that this is a Government that does not really care about these bigger issues about where taxpayer money goes. I say Government members should hang their heads in shame, and I can see many of them there at the back hanging their heads in shame at the behaviour of this Government around this scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut back to the legislation itself\u2014not what is not in it, not the things that are not in it and that ought to be\u2014and in its 700 pages, it does implement a new one-stop shop for securities law. These are good steps forward. It is about time, obviously, 5 years after Labour kicked the process off, that we had these things in. The regulations in the area of derivatives have been inefficient, and Labour does welcome these measures and initiatives by the Government to address the problems. Derivatives have been brought within the framework of the four financial products, which include debt, equity, and managed investment schemes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo I think we can claim that this is a success and a bipartisan approach. It is a shame that some of the earlier bills we debated yesterday were not subjected to the same test\u2014the ones that look at where we go from here, about responsible fiscal management\u2014and were not developed in a bipartisan way. No doubt they will not stand the test of time in the same fashion. That is a shame, because generally in this area we like to have a bipartisan approach. It is one of those great moments when we can celebrate across the House the value of transparency, of appropriate regulation, and of seeing that those who invest\u2014retail investors\u2014do not have the wool pulled over their eyes, and that documentation can be clear and that capital can then flow to its best use for the long-term productivity of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo I commend the Government for bringing this legislation to the House. I commend it for getting it through. I would have liked to have seen it come a little earlier, but transparency, accountability, and consequences are important in this legislation, as they are elsewhere. They are important for the efficient functioning of markets so that markets become good and effective servants and not the terrible masters we know they can be if they are not properly regulated. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002216770a0ec4254a79baa2c166aeda13f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216770a0ec4254a79baa2c166aeda13f7\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak to the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill. There is a lot in this legislation. It has, perhaps, a number of points of departure, but, clearly, one of the essential ones is the failure of the finance companies. The failure of the finance companies really stands behind this legislation, though it is about more than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI think it is important for us to remind ourselves of the scale. There were about 67 finance companies that ended up in the deep freeze. Some of them got out again, but not very many. There was about $9 billion worth of deposits that was put at risk as a result. There were about 242,000, or about a quarter of a million, New Zealand investors whose deposits were threatened as a result of the failure of the finance companies. Some of these investors got all their money back, some of them got some of it back, and some of them did not get much back at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo these finance companies, which proliferated in an unregulated environment, caused tremendous damage to the New Zealand economy and caused tremendous damage to those individuals. On top of that, after the global financial crisis, the taxpayer got involved in this as well, and ended up losing hundreds of millions of dollars, probably\u2014we have not got the final number\u2014through the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, particularly associated with South Canterbury Finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EEssentially, in some respects you could argue that the disaster of the finance companies was a failure of the Clerk-Cullen Government to regulate the sector. We saw the sector emerging through the early 2000s as a completely unregulated sector and one clearly in need of regulation, but I think it is probably fair to say that the Clerk-Cullen Government was not willing to challenge many of the fundamentals of the neo-liberal economic order and simply let the finance sector get out of control. You could say the same thing about the housing market. I would note that the current Labour Party has learnt the lesson of the global financial crisis, which I think is great. It is a pity that Clark and Cullen did not learn it earlier, as we could have avoided the disaster that the finance companies became. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOn top of that we had the South Canterbury Finance bailout debacle. This was the fault of the current Government, essentially. When those people who were close to the scene understood what was going on, they realised that South Canterbury Finance was still making dodgy loans and still providing very high rates of return, and it was entirely Government guaranteed, so they rushed to put their money into South Canterbury Finance to get the high-interest payments that were being paid there that were entirely Government guaranteed. Unfortunately, the Minister of Finance at the time did not intervene to close down deposits into South Canterbury Finance, which is clearly what needed to happen, so the taxpayer ended up paying far more in terms of the bailout there than they needed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe question that I guess needs to be asked in relation to the finance companies, then, is: does the legislation before us makes it harder or easier to make those people who were responsible for things like the finance company collapse accountable for their actions? I think that is one of the key questions that we need to face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIf we are going to answer the question of whether this legislation makes it easier or harder, we need to look at what the existing situation was. In this regard, there are many points of departure, but you could look at the Serious Fraud Office investigation into Hanover Finance, which was one of the companies involved. The Serious Fraud Office investigated Hanover Finance over 32 months, I think it was. It was a massive investigation\u2014100,000 pages of evidence\u2014and at the end of the day it came to the conclusion that it could not prosecute. This was in spite of the other conclusions that it came to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI want to read from the Serious Fraud Office statement of April this year about the Hanover Finance investigation. It said: \u201CSFO believes that serious questions arise as to: The consistency between the overall view of the nature and financial condition of the companies disclosed to investors in the period from December 2007, and the actual position of the companies;\u201D\u2014so, what Hanover Finance told the market and what was the reality of the market. Secondly: \u201CThe solvency of the companies at the times that dividends were paid during the six months immediately prior to the suspension of payments to depositors in July 2008;\u201D\u2014so, were these companies solvent? Thirdly: \u201CThe propriety of a number of transactions entered into in the three months immediately prior to the suspension of payments to depositors that appear to have provided little or no benefit to the companies, while conferring some significant benefits on the related parties;\u201D. This is, of course, the problem where related parties can benefit at the expense of the everyday depositor, who ends up losing money. And, fourthly: \u201CThe accuracy of the valuation of the companies\u2019 assets in the financial statements supporting the Debt Repayment Proposal put to investors in November 2008.\u201D Of course, the accuracy of a statement with regard to the company\u2019s assets is one of the key responsibilities of a director of one of these companies, and so for the Serious Fraud Office to say that it has serious questions about it is significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo those were the questions that the Serious Fraud Office asked, and believed that it had serious concerns about. The report went on to say: \u201CHowever, in order for criminal charges to be successful it is necessary not only to prove beyond reasonable doubt that these circumstances occurred and that they breached the companies\u2019 legal obligations, but that identified individuals in control of the companies had both knowledge of the circumstances and caused them to occur with dishonest intent. \u2018Recent decisions relating to other failed finance companies have highlighted how difficult it is to satisfy this demand,\u2019 said Simon McArley.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe reason why this is significant is that that was the situation under the existing law before this financial markets conduct legislation appeared, and what the Serious Fraud Office was saying was that it was pretty difficult to get prosecutions under that existing law. Then the Serious Fraud Office went on to talk about the Solicitor-General\u2019s prosecution guidelines, which led it to the conclusion that it was highly unlikely that it would get a successful prosecution with regard to the Hanover Finance case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe reason why this is important is that we need to ask ourselves: will the new law\u2014which is very likely to be passed tonight on its third reading\u2014make it easier or harder for those responsible for these kinds of activities to be prosecuted or not? I think what is pretty clear is that it will be harder to get a criminal conviction as a result of the new law. For those quarter of a million New Zealanders who lost money in the finance company disaster, it is highly significant that Parliament will be passing laws that make it harder to get a criminal conviction under this new law, in a similar circumstance, than it was under the old law. I think that those quarter of a million New Zealanders who lost money in the finance companies would be surprised to learn that it is the intent of Parliament to pass a law to make it harder to get a criminal prosecution over the line under the new law. I find it surprising, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EUnder the new legislation, essentially, there is a separate criminal liability for a director. So there is an element of criminal liability possible, and that is where there is a disclosure defect, as it is called\u2014like a false statement in a prospectus, for example\u2014that is materially adverse from the investor\u2019s point of view. So if there is a false statement made in a prospectus that has a negative consequence for investors, then there is the possibility of criminal liability for the director of such a company. \u201CThe offence would be committed if the offer took place with the director\u2019s authority, permission, or consent, and the director knew of, or was reckless as to whether there was a defect.\u201D So that is the criminal provision. Basically, the Crown would have to prove a guilty mind in order to get a successful prosecution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI think it is pretty clear that under the new legislation it will be harder to get a prosecution and a conviction over the line than it was under the old legislation, and I think that the nearly quarter of a million New Zealanders who were stung by the finance companies would be surprised by that. Essentially, what is clear is that under the new legislation the primary remedy for wrongdoing for things like inadequate disclosure is the civil regime, rather than the criminal one, so that civil claim is for cash. But even there, there are some pretty strong defences that directors will have if any civil proceedings are made against them, so it is not at all clear to me that this legislation progresses the plight of those 250,000 investors in terms of whether those who commit these acts, such as misleading investors, will be more liable for a criminal offence. I think it is clear that they will not be and that it will be harder to get a criminal prosecution, but even a civil cash penalty will have its challenges, as well. So I think those people would be scratching their heads as to why this Parliament will be passing this legislation tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI would also make the point, as David Parker did, about whether this legislation will actually make it easier for smaller companies to access capital to grow. I think that is a very valid point. It is very hard to see that it will, but maybe it will; I could be proved wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EBecause of that particular problem with the legislation, even though there are elements of it that we support\u2014and we support significant elements of it\u2014we will not be supporting it at this time. We hope that we get proved wrong and that the legislation actually turns out to have more positive effects, but we shall see. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u002258c62730d6bc4eba93f99e90310df1b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258c62730d6bc4eba93f99e90310df1b4\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak on this legislation, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill. As has already been stated tonight, this is a significant step forward in terms of our securities markets. I want to thank the Minister of Commerce, the Hon Craig Foss, for getting it through the House tonight, and also the chair of the Commerce Committee, Jonathan Young, and members from the National side, Kanwaljit Bakshi, Jian Yang, and Mr Mark Mitchell, who joined me and other members who deliberated on this bill. I also want to thank the Capital Market Development Taskforce, because it did some great research on this area, as did former Minister of Commerce, the Hon Lianne Dalziel. I wish her well in her mayoral campaign, and I just want to acknowledge her work on this legislation too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis legislation is important because capital markets legislation, especially capital markets and securities legislation, needs updating. It is 35 years since the legislation was first passed. Since then not only have the ways of raising capital changed across the board basically from phone to more electronic forms but also the products that are available for transacting in our capital markets have changed, where we have various derivative products, the number of market participants in our country has developed, and now capital flows in and out of the country in terms of our capital markets. We need reforming of that legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis legislation actually adds to what has already been done under this Government. The Financial Markets Authority Act brought together a single entity to oversee the transactions in our markets. That was one of the recommendations of the Capital Market Development Taskforce, and we took that on board. The Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Amendment Act and the Financial Advisers Amendment Act we enacted 2 years ago, and again they regulate those who participate in the market, who give advice and service provision in financial markets and with financial products. We, again, had to clean up the mess that was left by the last Labour Government in passing the Financial Advisers Act in 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI heard members opposite say that we are passing this under urgency. Well, we are passing only the Committee stage and third reading under urgency. What members opposite do forget is that in 2008 they passed the financial advisers legislation, which needed to be repealed in many ways, under urgency, under the Clark-Cullen Government. So I ask members to just think when they make such comments in the House and to look at their own house and get their own house in order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis legislation is about rebuilding confidence in the markets. We know that when the global financial crisis hit, numbers of companies failed, but those companies started failing, as Mr Norman correctly said\u2014and I do not agree with much of what Mr Norman says\u2014under the last Labour Government. They failed in 2005, right up to 2008, and we have had to clean up the mess brought about by a lack of regulation in this area. I am glad that those members have come on board, though. I am glad that they have joined us in regulating markets properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis is about balancing between disclosure and reporting requirements under the legislation whilst also enabling our companies and organisations to get on with raising capital\u2014both debt and equity capital\u2014in our markets. Why? Because by gaining capital they invest in assets and resources\u2014and Mr Jones knows this because he is in favour of these types of policies of investing in jobs in resources. They provide jobs and opportunities, and that allows our families and our communities to look after themselves through job opportunities. What it does, by having better trust in the markets, is give investors confidence. It gives them the trust and confidence that they can, with a fair degree of certainty, make investments in the markets and understand what those products stand for. There is still risk and, as the last Minister of Commerce stated during the legislating of other commerce bills, we cannot in this Parliament regulate for risk. What we can do is provide a framework within which investment products can be better assessed for risk and better assessed for the pricing of those products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ESo I turn now to the Financial Markets Conduct Bill. Various parts of the bill are important, and I want to touch on just two. Part 3 replaces a requirement for issuers to prepare a prospectus and investment statement with a requirement to prepare a single product disclosure statement. This is tailored to retail investors\u2014mum and dad investors\u2014whom we are trying to protect, whom we are trying to promote. The partial floats of our State-owned enterprises promote the access and the ability of those investors to get into the market and invest in our companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe final thing I want to just touch on is that this legislation\u2014and Mr Norman touched on it\u2014touches and modifies the liability framework for breaches of securities law. That is important, because those who transgress our laws\u2014and these securities laws are particularly important\u2014have got to know that serious breaches of these laws will be enforced and criminal penalties will be imposed on those transgressors. It will be 10 years\u2019 imprisonment and fines of up to $1 million for individuals and $5 million for companies for egregious behaviour. That is a Government that is acting on the wishes of submitters, that is a Government that is listening to mum and dad investors and the public, and that is a Government that is promoting economic growth in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EFinally, I say that we promote this legislation. It is a bit of a massive piece of legislation to have undertaken, but we did it and it took a bit of time because consultation with the industry and consultation with the regulators, the stakeholders, the investors, and the consumers was really important. I think, given what we have gone through in the process here, that we have come up with legislation that will work in future and will deliver for New Zealanders and deliver jobs, opportunities, and growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00223ef105f382eb45e180f788f31d9e3c93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ef105f382eb45e180f788f31d9e3c93\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First in the third reading of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and related legislation. Can I firstly start by saying that it is a great disappointment this evening that we have not heard one single apology from the Government for taking 5 years to get to this point. It has not apologised to the 250,000 New Zealand investors who lost their money, many of whom lost their life-savings through the shonky markets, the shonky financial institutions, and the shonky governance that was in place in this country under this National Government for the last 5 years. Not one of the National members has stood up and made any form of apology to the many, many hard-working people around New Zealand who have lost a great deal of money. They must be asking why it has taken so long for it to get to this point while other legislation under this Government has been rammed through with urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe have seen legislation for the likes of charter schools, for the sale of State assets, for the Government Communications Security Bureau spy bill, for ripping the Local Government Act apart, and for the Resource Management Act, again, being ripped apart. All sorts of other good legislation in this country has been pulled apart, ripped apart, and decimated while this legislation, which had full support across the House from most parties, apart from the Green Party, to properly overhaul the financial markets in this country and turn a cowboy situation into a proper, 21st century financial situation with our financial markets, has been left by the Government to wallow for 5 years. This legislation was brought in by a Labour Government with the support of New Zealand First back in 2007-08. This was brought before this Parliament a long, long time ago, and it has taken 5 years to finally get to these third readings. And now we are doing it under what we call urgency. Well, is it not just absolutely ironic that it has taken 5 years, and now, under urgency, this Government wants to put it through this evening? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is supporting this legislation because, as we have always said, good policy that is for the benefit of New Zealanders, for the benefit of the New Zealand economy, and for the good of all New Zealanders is what New Zealand First is all about, and we thoroughly support this. We support the fact that it will ensure that fund managers and supervisors of schemes such as KiwiSaver will have tighter controls and regulations. And with so many people now investing in the likes of KiwiSaver, it is increasingly important that the likes of this legislation is in place to ensure that the controls are there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe like the fact that directors and those who might be found to be wanting in this area and who may not wish to maintain the laws of this country could, if they are found to be at fault, be subject to up to $1 million in fines as individuals, or $5 million as companies. Again, it sends a strong message to many of these past perpetrators that this sort of activity and this way of acting in our financial markets will not be tolerated. It aims to strike a better balance between issuers and investors, and the improvements in the controls and regulations will give greater confidence to our capital markets. It is most important at this time that our capital markets have greater confidence. Around the world there is some level of uncertainty in many countries. In New Zealand we have been very fortunate because we are such a strong agricultural-based economy\u2014we are a very strong export economy based on our rural agricultural history\u2014and we have been sitting under the shadow of the Australian economy, which has been very strong through this whole period. It is very fortunate that our big brother across the Tasman has weathered the global financial crisis in a reasonably sound manner, and New Zealand has benefited, as a result, from that. It is very fortunate that we are in a position where we certainly have not come out at the end of the global financial crisis in a much worse state. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut the 250,000 New Zealand investors who lost a lot of money must still be wondering how it all happened\u2014how it occurred that the likes of South Canterbury Finance ended up $1.6 billion in the red, owing so much money, and how it was that over a period of the last 6 months of that institution it was allowed to continue taking deposits and continue taking money off innocent investors while our authorities, our Reserve Bank, and our Treasury were completely blind to the whole situation, and while the Government itself was also not aware of what was going on. More innocent investment money was lost as a result of people simply taking their eye off the ball and allowing these sorts of shonky, cowboy financial activities to continue in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe Financial Markets Conduct Bill is a weighty document. It is hundreds and hundreds of pages. I do commend all those who have been involved in putting it together. It has been a very good exercise in how it has been constructed. I congratulate the former Minister of Commerce Lianne Dalziel on doing this. I wish her well in her mayoral campaign in Christchurch, and I do thank her for what she did in terms of getting this bill under way under the Labour Government. I also congratulate the current Minister of Commerce, Craig Foss, who is a recent Minister and who has seen fit to keep it moving and get this through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EOnce again, I would repeat that this is the sort of thing where this Parliament does let itself down. There should be no excuse, and this Government has no excuse, for allowing this particular legislation to take 5 years to get to this point. We have known for years now that there were some significant problems in our financial markets and that we had in excess of 60 companies go belly up in the financial industry. As a result, that should have been setting off huge alarm bells a long, long time ago to get this legislation pushed through far sooner than the likes of charter schools, State-owned assets, and spying on New Zealanders. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022232d66ea56e64fc69e40768b01a36dd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022232d66ea56e64fc69e40768b01a36dd1\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge the work done by the members of the Commerce Committee who are sitting on the other side of the House on the original bill, the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, and in particular the chair, Jonathan Young. I think it is important to show the respect that we have for each other when working on this sort of legislation. I would also like to acknowledge the sensible comments of Andrew Williams about the time that it has taken to get to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhen a bill comes back to the House after a prolonged select committee process, you have to ask yourself how it can sit on the Order Paper for another year before it gets to this point. That is a problem in this House, particularly with legislation that is needed to put in place a regulatory regime to basically deal with the situation that saw 61 finance companies\u201412 months ago it was 61\u2014fail in 4 years. Andrew Williams mentioned the 250,000 investors. This was a very serious issue, and it has taken another year for the legislation to get to this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI think it is also important that we look at this and we think that although this is dealing with the shortcomings of our regulatory system, which was partly responsible for at least these financial company failures\u2014no single entity took responsibility for the problem\u2014the fact is that it is not enough. This legislation ensures that the Financial Markets Authority has broad oversight of the sector, and it ensures that Kiwi investors do not face this sort of disaster again. However, as I said, it is not enough, and there should be other pieces of work going through this House right now. I say this with reference to the member on the select committee Sam Lotu-Iiga, who has, as I understand it, a loan sharks bill that is sitting languishing at No. 40-something on the Order Paper. That bill is supposedly something that this Government made a big fanfare about more than a year ago\u2014and it is not being progressed. The bill deals with our most vulnerable members of society and the way that they are being exploited. It is a key piece of legislation that should be being dealt with. It was introduced in April this year and it has still not progressed any further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe other thing that should be being progressed through this House right now is the issue of tax fraud. In respect of tax fraud and tax evasion, this Government\u2014that Government on that side of the House\u2014should actually be bringing before us measures to address the issue of the $1.2 billion a year estimated by the Inland Revenue Department in tax discrepancies and the $140 million in actual tax fraud. Instead, what we see is a focus on welfare fraud, which is estimated at around $20 million a year in relationship fraud. The discrepancies and the prioritisation are extraordinary, and I think that that Government should be held to account for its lack of attention to those two key pieces of work that it should be focusing on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would like to make some comments about the Greens\u2019 position on this bill. It disturbs me that I have heard them speaking in the second reading debate after the bill came back from the select committee, and again tonight, about opposing the legislation. They say they do not believe that the criminal sanctions in this legislation are actually going to be able to be implemented. I would like to acknowledge the officials who worked on this legislation. There was a lot of really hard work and they were put under the spotlight on measures such as whether or not those criminal sanctions would actually have an effect, and I would like to make a couple of comments on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Committee received a number of submissions on the appropriate mental, or fault, element for criminal liability, and the main issue that the submitters focused on was whether knowledge or recklessness was an appropriate threshold for the serious criminal offences in the legislation. A lot of submitters actually told us that they thought that was far too strict and that we should not be going there, or that it was too low or too uncertain. Submitters either preferred knowledge alone, noting that it included wilful blindness, or suggested that there should be proof of dishonesty. We were told that the meaning of recklessness is not unclear. It has a standard element of criminal intent in criminal law. Its meaning is clear and well-established, which is that there must be foresight of dangerous consequences that could well happen with an intention to continue the course of conduct regardless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E The legislation does not criminalise reckless conduct or risk taking generally, but what it does is impose criminal consequences only where a person is reckless as to a particular circumstance that attracts liability. This was very carefully thought through. The advice that we were given was very strong and clear. In the end the committee determined that this was the right approach to take. I think we are going to see an outcome with this legislation, and to vote against it purely on that basis has, I think, an element of recklessness in it, given the amount of work. Yes, it has taken far too long to get to this point, but given the amount of work that has gone into it, the amount of thought that has gone into it, I think that it is worthy of giving it the benefit of the doubt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe principal policy objective behind this legislation, as you have all heard, is to facilitate capital market activity in order to help businesses fund growth and to help individuals reach their financial goals but it is also about working for investors, because investors must have confidence in the integrity of the financial markets. This weighty tome of legislation\u2014a doorstopper, the big kahuna, or whatever you want to call it\u2014actually represents integrity in our system. It was begun under a Labour Government in the work that Lianne Dalziel did in the Capital Market Development Taskforce. It is ultimately about ensuring that investors, particularly those everyday investors, can be reassured that there is a system in place that brings all of those parts of the system together, that there is accountability, that there is responsibility, and that ultimately there are sanctions in place if things go wrong. That is the objective of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the work of Clayton Cosgrove in the development of the significant and substantial amendment that he produced. I would also like to acknowledge the work of the Minister of Commerce in pushing this legislation through. Yes, it has been pushed through its Committee stage and the subsequent third readings under urgency, but it has taken too long to get to the House. I do hope that the Government will pay attention to the priorities that it needs to focus on next. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002299d452bf3dd64a8b82667d999a5dd51e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299d452bf3dd64a8b82667d999a5dd51e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, kia ora an\u014D tatou e noho nei i roto i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare i t\u0113nei p\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[And so greetings once again to us seated in our House tonight.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI rise to support the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill. I should note the contributions made by the current Minister of Commerce, the predecessor Simon Power\u2014who is somewhere up in Westpac\u2019s parlour counting all the money\u2014and also Clayton Cosgrove and Lianne Dalziel. It seems so long ago since this issue first came on to the horizon. There probably was a lot more that should have been done a lot earlier. We were constantly receiving accounts in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008 that people were promising extraordinarily high interest rates, but there was an absence of sophistication from the owners of the savings and the providers of the capital to the various schemes of the time. I remember saying to one or three of them myself: \u201CLook, if someone is offering you that level of interest return, rest assured great risk will be involved.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut the machinery of the State at that time to deal with that kind of problem\u2014i.e., sucking money from retirees and from a host of other savers into the various schemes that turned to custard\u2014really has been a blight. I know of many people who approached me who have had to sell their properties\u2014in Kerikeri, for example, where there is a host of retirees who have fled from the super-city up to the temperate climes of Tai Tokerau. They have had to completely downgrade the quality of their lives because\u2014if I could just focus for a moment on the finance companies\u2014what money they had disappeared into the ether once those companies turned to custard. In fact, I recall Dover Samuels bumping into a Mr Petricevic one night in a restaurant in Parnell. He approached Mr Petricevic and acquainted him with the fact that Dover had been an investor in one of those schemes. I think the night ended with the police almost having to be called to restrain one of those investors from Kerikeri or Matauri Bay who made his point in a pretty fulsome way, as you would expect from our former colleague. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAll New Zealand has an investment capital deficit. We actually import so much of the money we use and recycle into mortgage housing, or we rely on international investors in Christchurch, for example, although there are billions of dollars that the insurance industry has paid out. Without a doubt, a lot of dough going into Christchurch is going to be sourced internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo when we go and promote our credentials internationally in order to overcome this deficit, it is good that this legislation contributes to the enhancement of our reputation, and that there is a regulatory framework in which people can have trust, as they should, given the favoured status that we have sought and currently enjoy in terms of OECD rankings. We have a stable, Westminster parliamentary democracy, contract law that can be enforced, and a judicial system that remains utterly independent and neutral from the executive but, hopefully, with the efforts of the current Attorney-General and David Parker, a judiciary that knows that the sovereignty of Parliament in our system cannot be eclipsed. That is another issue, and it is something that I know has consumed the mind, the time, and the imagination of the President of the Supreme Court. But at the pith of our system, this is where law is made, that is where law is interpreted, and No. 1 The Terrace, Treasury, is where law is executed. That is the importance of the hierarchy. So that is one of the credentials that we should burnish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis system allows new immigrants, Kiwi citizens, residents, and overseas investors to trust that when a document is produced, what that document promises to deliver on is actually enforceable. So what we have now with the supercharged Financial Markets Authority is no ambiguity that the organisation is empowered to make a call. It has the necessary powers of discretion to determine whether future innovations are in or out of the regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI do think there should be some flexibility, and I am glad that the Commerce Committee did address the importance of flexibility. The last thing we really want to do is stunt or impede the ability of the providers of opportunity and the providers of capital to come together, but we cannot go back to the bleak times when thousands of Kiwi retirees, families, and others were fleeced. In fact, some of those schemes had a Nigerian-like quality about them. I happen to know about some of those schemes, given that I know some of the people who went to jail for putting the money of M\u0101ori trusts into such schemes. So it is something that has swept\u2014the member for Rotorua, Todd McClay, nods in acknowledgment. However, having done the crime, served the time, hoki mai, get on with life. That is my approach to these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHaving said that, this piece of legislation should command support from both sides of the House. Without capital, there is no ability to grow our economy. Without trust\u2014not so much in the executives but in the quality of the document and its ability to be enforced with criminally based punitive actions. That will gain the attention of those who have been prepared to take a risk and suffer civil consequences. The sobering prospect of ending up with the Mongrel Mob next door in the Ng\u0101wh\u0101 prison for breaking these laws, I am quite sure, will focus the minds of those folks who live in the leafy suburbs of Remuera, Kohim\u0101rama, and other such places. It is not a pleasant experience to go to the Ng\u0101wh\u0101 h\u012Bnaki or prison. I am quite sure that those senior graduates in accountancy, finance and legal studies will get a lifetime\u2019s education in the event that they arrive there. I am only saddened that this did not actually come in earlier. I am also saddened that this was not around in the times when the last bout of the Wild West was acted out. But now that it is here, I think it is important that the institution implementing it has a very effective education programme, because many of the professionals will certainly search for ways to circumvent it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is an important principle when dealing in these kinds of areas: execute, figuratively, one or three and educate a thousand. Rest assured, once a couple of shonky characters caught under this regime go away, and do a bit of time for 2 or 3 years, the others in the Wellington club and the Auckland club will be suitably focused on the importance of adhering to these new rules. It sounds a bit rough the way I described it, but it was actually rougher for the people who lost all their dough. It was rougher for the grandmothers, the grandfathers, and the parents who lost the majority of their savings when they unwisely trusted the quality of the commentary in the offer documents, or they felt they could trust the lawyers, the accountants, and the financial planners giving them advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis time round they will find that trust is not an emotional concept. Trust is something that once you violate it, you go to jail and do your time. That, surely, must improve the prospect of investors gathering lots more confidence and people providing opportunity for investment capital, owning their own obligations. We support the bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022db022add027b4528a9d770b0ac6ca944\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db022add027b4528a9d770b0ac6ca944\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You did indicate that the next person who used one of the rating cards would be expelled from the House. Jonathan Young just did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002206bbe260ffd44ab7a3c6c0bb6f662fd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206bbe260ffd44ab7a3c6c0bb6f662fd8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did indicate during question time yesterday that I would take a very dim view if I saw any member continuing to use those cards. Does the member want to make a contribution to this debate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00f98b297df4969acb6bb5a0dc732fc\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, certainly, Mr Speaker. I thought I had the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f797d44229d40948cf9f57099afe228\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00228c9e2699d78e4863a433acc9e922d5a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c9e2699d78e4863a433acc9e922d5a3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to make a contribution in this debate on the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill. There are a couple points that I do want to make in relation to this legislation, but, first of all, I want to do some thankyous. Lianne Dalziel did a lot of work on this. Clayton Cosgrove did as well. I was lucky enough to meet with the Capital Market Development Taskforce on, I think, four or five occasions, when I had a variety of associate finance and economic development - type roles. There was a very firm view amongst people on our side of the House, and I think it was shared on the other side, as well, that it was important that we develop a system of capital raising in New Zealand that reminded us a bit less of the Wild West. I think that those of us of our generation will remember some of the problems in the late 1980s\u2014in particular, in 1987\u2014around the crash there when fortunes were made and lost, with almost no relationship to the underlying value of shares in the market. Certainly, what happened in the 1980s caused a massive migration of investors out of the stock market, because, essentially, there was a lack of trust in the vehicles that were being used at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere is a view that it is important for New Zealand to have a variety of arrangements where people can put their money\u2014whether it is shares, whether it is bonds, whether it is a variety of savings arrangements\u2014and they can have a clear indication of the level of security involved. I have had some considerable experience over most of my life in the sharemarket. One thing that is very important is that people are aware that whenever they invest, especially in anything that does not carry a substantive guarantee, there is a possibility of losing part or all of their money. What I hope this legislation does is get us to a point where risks are clearer, because, again, as all of us know, if there is real money to be made, then there will be a risk that sits in behind that as well. The more transparent that risk, the better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI have related to the House in the Committee stage the experience of a number of my constituents who live in Wainui\u014Dmata. I pointed out that because of its proximity to Industrial Research Ltd, the fact that land prices and house prices are relatively cheap, and the fact that Wainui\u014Dmata is surrounded by bush that has been regenerating for well over about 25 years, and it has the coast and the forest park, it is a place where a lot of the scientists and technical people from the old Industrial Research Ltd, which is now Callaghan Innovation, tend to live. There is a very high proportion\u2014one would not expect it in a decile 4 community\u2014of PhDs, because they know that it is a great place to live. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhat is also interesting is that when you have a community of about 17,000 people, when people start talking about investments, quite a big proportion of the community finds out about it. The case I related was a case of BioCryst Pharmaceuticals, which is a Nasdaq-listed company and which has, I am not saying a significant proportion of the shareholders or the shareowners, but a disproportionate number coming from Wainui\u014Dmata, compared with most Nasdaq-listed companies. The reason that they come from there is that the underlying intellectual property that is owned by BioCryst Pharmaceuticals was developed at Industrial Research Ltd. It was sold by Industrial Research Ltd\u2014and I cannot remember the amount\u2014for $10 million or $20 million or $30 million. It was significant. It made a big difference to Industrial Research Ltd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMy view is that it is a pity that it could not have formed some sort of financial arrangement to retain some of the value and to have the possibility of some of the upside, but that did not happen. But because people in Wainui\u014Dmata knew of the potential of this intellectual property, and because a number of their friends and neighbours had been working on it or worked with people who had worked on it, it created quite a sense of excitement. You had people going to the local brokerage houses. Back in the day there used to be minimum brokerage fees, which meant that making investments of $200 or $300 was not really economic, but these days a lot of it is much more on a percentage term, and therefore people can make relatively small investments. So the community of Wainui\u014Dmata was involved\u2014and I understand is still involved\u2014in investing in this Nasdaq-listed company. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhat that led me to think was that there are probably lots of other things that are developed or invented in New Zealand where local communities, if they had the right vehicles, would like to put some of their money. I just want to make it clear that I am not promoting BioCryst Pharmaceuticals. I just want to say to people investing on the Nasdaq that it is slightly safer than the TAB, but not much, and I do not want to be seen to be doing a promotion. But what it does say to me is would it not be better than putting money into a casino or putting it into the TAB or even\u2014and I say this with some reluctance, as a member of the Lottery Grants Board\u2014putting it into Lotto, if there can be arrangements where relatively small amounts can be wagered or even, one might like to say, invested in vehicles that mean that good New Zealand ideas have the ability to be developed? That was part of the objectives of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to say that I have not dealt with the current Minister of Commerce on this legislation, but I certainly dealt with the Hon Simon Power over a period of time. I think it is fair to say that he had some reasonable vision in that area, and it has been continued through into this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut the point I will come back to is that it is important, especially for these New Zealand - based investments, that there is transparency, that people are told what they are about, that the risks are set out clearly, and that this is done in plain language so that people know what they are getting into. I think it is useful if we can do, as I indicated earlier, crowdfunding\u2014the crowdsourcing of funding using the internet, using Facebook, or using a number of different vehicles for getting money in. Again, the evidence that I know of is that for bands who want to produce what I would have called records in the old days, and who want to produce and share music, quite a lot of the funding of the studio and other production arrangements is now done through that crowdfunding. Well, that is good for bands, but I would like to see it being done more and more for areas that are likely to create jobs and wealth for New Zealanders, and I think that this legislation has the potential to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002293a20b6a87324dab9337e47db914de60\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and the Financial Markets (Repeals and Amendments) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 16\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d7614abcbe641468db48c1b02225a8e\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b017f2f3338b455cad8c20dd97b0b86d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022186e79c789d242c1ad69d53cf223c980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022186e79c789d242c1ad69d53cf223c980\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThis bill continues the Government\u2019s focus on providing proper governance over this multimillion-dollar taxpayer-funded scheme by making borrowers aware of their personal obligations to repay their loans and the consequences they will face when they choose to ignore them. I should add at this point that the overwhelming majority of borrowers do the right thing and take their repayments seriously. However, there remains a small group of mainly overseas-based borrowers who consistently renege on their loan repayments. As at 30 June this year this group was responsible for 80 percent of all overdue loan repayments. This lack of personal responsibility is clearly unfair to the borrowers who do honour their repayment obligations. The main purpose in this bill is, therefore, targeted at the small group of overseas-based borrowers who, in spite of the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s best efforts to encourage their compliance, continue to ignore their responsibilities, despite having the ability to recognise them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe proposed changes, which were signalled by the Government in the Budget earlier this year, will give the Inland Revenue Department greater powers to deal with this group of individuals. The proposals in this bill build on measures introduced last year that allow for an information match between the Inland Revenue Department and the New Zealand Customs Service to identify borrowers at the border who are in serious default on their loan repayments and to forward their contact details to the Inland Revenue Department for follow-up. This was the first step towards identifying individuals at the border who failed to respond to the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s best efforts to encourage them to make repayments on their loans. The principal measure proposed in this bill strengthens this provision by allowing the Inland Revenue Department to request an arrest warrant for borrowers with the most serious history of non-compliance who are attempting to leave the country after visiting New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI would like to stress at this point that this action would be taken only when dealing with the most serious cases of non-compliance. This means that action would be taken only when all other efforts by the Inland Revenue Department to persuade the borrower to make repayments have failed, and only for borrowers who can clearly afford to pay. It is, however, intended to send a clear message to all borrowers that a student loan carries the same responsibilities as a commercial loan and that it must be repaid irrespective of where the borrower may choose to live. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe other major proposals in the bill are also based on promoting personal responsibility for loan repayments and greater fairness across the student loan scheme. The principal proposal of these provisions is to bring overseas-based borrowers\u2019 repayment obligations more into line with their New Zealand - based counterparts. Under the current rules an overseas-based borrower\u2019s repayment obligation is based on their loan balance. For New Zealand - based borrowers, however, their repayment levels are based on their level of income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe effect of this difference is that the repayment obligations for an overseas-based borrower decrease as the person\u2019s loan balance falls, whilst a New Zealand - based borrower\u2019s repayment obligation increases as their personal income rises. In the interests of greater fairness the bill proposes to fix repayment obligations for overseas-based borrowers, based on their loan balance. Overseas borrowers with a loan balance over $45,000 will also have their repayments rates increased. The effect of these proposed changes will be to reduce the current repayment time and the amount of interest these borrowers will ultimately have to pay on their loans. This will result in a fairer, more efficient outcome for all concerned in the student loan scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe remaining measures proposed in the bill are largely remedial in nature. Their purpose is to ensure that the student loan scheme operates as intended and that it delivers value for money to the Government for the taxpayer and for borrowers. It is, therefore, with great pleasure that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00221a0e36c84d914c95bcbc76b521710c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a0e36c84d914c95bcbc76b521710c85\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in the first reading of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) to say that Labour fundamentally and categorically opposes this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa0d88491a4d4645b956976c35ec0258\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Hooray!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522b2c0f16424810bcd0e521031405c5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much\u2014thank you, Tracey. The interest-free student loan scheme was one of the great achievements of the Clark Labour Government. It was actively supported and developed by my colleague Trevor Mallard, who is sitting to my right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1dd0ed0c81945678ff5deec8a03f575\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Ably assisted by Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ecdac448274ad6a424e698dc7af42b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and was ably assisted by Grant Robertson, in a backroom capacity. I am not sure that he sits as far to my right as Mr Mallard, but that is a different matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ERemoving punitive and unsustainable interest charges from student loans de-fanged what had been an increasingly impractical and generationally unfair system for funding tertiary education. Generations of students built up a mountain of debt, and if they got behind in their payments, the debt mountain grew with interest and penalties. It became like a lead collar\u2014like a lead collar that would bow them down when they wanted to hold their heads up and get a decent start in life. It was like graduating with a mortgage before you had a home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELabour is very proud that in its last Government it was able to provide a pathway to the future for our young people by taking the interest component off student loans. National knows that it cannot repeal this policy, because it is wildly popular with middle New Zealand, as well as providing a ladder up for all young New Zealand students. It is the kind of ladder that people like, I do not know, Paula Bennett or John Key might have enjoyed in their youth\u2014the kind of ladder that National MPs seem to have a habit of pulling up after they have climbed it to make the climb harder for others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d28f82fc85e4005a5617c5ae6d03a31\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Change the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b64c75ce8954f2da6bb424f46771152\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The member at the back may not like it, but that is the honest truth of what we are seeing here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is not just a little bit of fiscal nip and tuck. Like the Government did with the odious Government Communications Security Bureau legislation just a couple of short weeks ago, this bill crosses the line. It crosses the line from prudent financial management to an erosion of civil liberties, because it imposes criminal sanctions on young New Zealanders trapped in the Kiwi diaspora who might want to come home and start a family. But what the National Party is saying is: \u201CSonny Jim, you step your foot inside our territory, you come back through that airport, and we\u2019re going to slap an arrest warrant on you for criminal sanctions because you haven\u2019t kept up with your student loan payments.\u201D That is not only morally wrong but also brain-dead. It is brain-dead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u201CGlossy\u201D there might be smirking away. He will be smirking on the other side of his pate very soon, because the Labour Party is coming after National\u2019s majority. The Labour Party is coming after this tired, useless National Government, and the Labour members are going to be claiming back those Treasury benches in just 1 year\u2019s time from now. When we do, the students of New Zealand will know that we are not going to criminalise them if they get behind in student loan payments. It is as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe all know the situation of people who have gone overseas to seek a bit of experience or on an OE. Sometimes you go through hard times while you are away. You cannot always get continuous employment. You get behind, and the old debt repayments mount up because the student loan interest-free remission does not apply when you are overseas. To be hit with a criminal penalty is reprehensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill is overly punitive. It turns a civil matter into a criminal matter by introducing arrest warrants. The Tertiary Education Union says it is a poor alternative to making tertiary education more affordable and accessible. Instead of providing an easier pathway up a gentler slope, what the Government is doing is putting a rock at the top, and if you slip, you get crushed by it. It is so very National, with due respect, Mr Speaker, because, of course, you have graduated to impartiality in your current form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c397091ea69a49c9827b7a30a1dbc77b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f518967a5c547d486e0b138cb9e09e3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I find myself tempted to agree with my learned colleague from time to time, but not too much on this occasion, perhaps, because it would be against the Standing Orders and I am the one who is going to get booted out. So let us not go there, but thanks, Trevor, for the suggestion on that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe other thing about this bill, diving down into the grubby details, is that Treasury\u2019s analysis is very poor. Treasury\u2019s analysis is very poor. It claims that overseas repayment obligations reduce the percentage of borrowers whose obligation does not cover their interest from 14 percent to 3.5 percent. That takes no account of the fact that interest rates are at historic lows just because the current Government could not manage economic growth out of a wet paper bag. So the interest rates are artificially low and the analysis is skewed, but Treasury makes no allowance for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere are thousands of Kiwis who are currently overseas who are keeping up with their loan repayments, but how many of those repayment obligations are increased dramatically and arbitrarily by this Minister of Revenue who appears to have nothing but contempt for young New Zealanders? There is no means testing here. There is no acknowledgment of circumstances, just a Government that cannot and will not listen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EA better approach would be to create more opportunities for young New Zealanders to stay in the country and earn decent wages. [Interruption] Mr Bennett knows that in a 30-year time series of data mapped against different Governments, economic growth is higher under Labour Governments than National ones. Business confidence can sometimes be lower, but economic growth is higher, which is why it is kind of ironic that the Government has the Minister for Economic Development having that title. He should be more like the \u201CMinister for Economic Stagnation\u201D. That would be a more apt title for him. That is right. There he is, trying to sniff the breeze in the National caucus to work out which way Judith Collins is going to come at him from. [Interruption] John Hayes says it is coming from him. There we are. That is wonderful. That is wonderful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe interest-free student loan scheme was one of the most important means of social mobility introduced by the last Labour Government. It meant that young people from modest backgrounds could take on the debt they needed to get a tertiary education without having to worry that the interest component of their repayments would snowball to the point where they could not repay. We agree with the fact that when you are offshore that particular subsidy should be suspended, but we do not agree that the failure to keep up\u2014often through circumstances beyond anybody\u2019s control\u2014should give rise to criminal sanctions. Just like in the Government Communications and Security Bureau Amendment legislation, where in the name of protecting New Zealanders from foreign espionage we have stripped them of their civil liberties, here we are crossing the line from the prudent management of public debt to the incursion into New Zealanders\u2019 civil rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis Government does not really care about young people getting ahead. This Government does not really care about climbing up the ladder of advantage. If it did, it would not be pulling the ladder up in front of a generation of young Kiwis who have yet to make the grade. It would not have stood by when the Reserve Bank introduced loan-to-value ratios without an exemption for first-home buyers. It would not have passed, in this very House today, the stages of a bill which once again concede what ought to be the right of Government to the same Reserve Bank, this time prostituting fiscal policy at the altar of Milton Friedman and giving the Governor of the Reserve Bank effective control over the Minister\u2019s portfolio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIs it because that Minister does not want to govern for economic growth? Is it because he thinks his department is so inferior to the Reserve Bank? Is it because he has lost hope in the future of our country? If that Minister has lost hope, colleagues, why do we not give him a rest? Why do we not give him some time to recover his energy? The members on this side of the House are full of energy. We are ready to give it a go, are we not, colleagues? The members on this side of the House think it is time for a change, and so does New Zealand. And guess what, fellers? A change is coming very soon. A change is coming very soon. We are coming after the Treasury benches and you lot can be very afraid. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00222aef031544af4bd5abf3c42780ee0dce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aef031544af4bd5abf3c42780ee0dce\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CA change is coming\u201D\u2014a change is coming to the Labour Party, all right. Obama used those words, not Cunliffe, not at quarter to ten at night to do your speech to be leader of the Labour Party. How pathetic is that? Nobody is listening, nobody is watching, no union officials are here watching, and no members of the Labour Party are here\u2014if there are any members left\u2014and poor old David Cunliffe has to come to this House and use the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) first reading to do his leadership speech. That is a shame, David, but it is good to see that you are surrounded by loyal people like Trevor Mallard\u2014people whom you can depend on to be beside you. Sue Moroney is there. Sue Moroney is a definite supporter of David Cunliffe. Sue has gone out there and said she is supporting David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246c4e66f7f5f4e999c3a159e9cea9e10\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022908c13ce8f874c438d32185c04c595fb\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Sue Moroney has never got anything right, so supporting David Cunliffe is a really good start. Iain Lees-Galloway, the man behind, is looking at coming up a few pegs or two if Mr Cunliffe gets in. The Labour Party members are playing a game. It is a great game for us to watch and see, but it is disgraceful that they have to come and take advantage of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) to play their game. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill is important. This bill is needed because we need to send the right signals to people who borrow and use Government funding\u2014the funding that is the ladder that gives people that step up in life. It is not about taking the ladder away, as some people say. It is about actually making sure there is fairness and equity in respect of those people who take advantage of the ladder that the Government gives. That fairness and equity is recognising that you have a debt and paying that debt back. That is the important thing. When we look at some of the statistics\u2014have a look at these.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51c4d25d70c49da81d89f68d12c647a\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d4919b9f10423c8f30a363787b3ed9\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, have a look at these\u2014New Zealand First Party\u2014facts are important. When your leader comes back, he will tell you what facts are. If you look at the overseas borrowers, there are 64 percent who are in default compared with 36 percent of borrowers in New Zealand. If you look at the amount in default, it is $93.4 million for New Zealand borrowers who are here, and $536.1 million in default for overseas borrowers. That is, 15 percent of the amount in default is owed by New Zealand borrowers, and 85 percent of the defaulting loans are owed by borrowers overseas. Those are New Zealanders who have taken the ladder to get themselves up and have not repaid that ladder. That ladder requires some repayments so that the next generation of New Zealanders can have that ladder so they have got that opportunity. It is a pity how the Labour Party, a party that is supposed to be there supporting people in their time of need, comes in here and makes political advantage out of something that is there for the good of those people who want to be supported and to be given a start in life. So shame on the Labour Party. It is a disgrace to the values of a real Labour Party. David Shearer stood for a real Labour Party. We are not going to see that out of any of the three monkeys who are trying to stand now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002240b22d57c4e44e6da91769d8d411a4e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240b22d57c4e44e6da91769d8d411a4e2\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a call on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3). I think that as one of the few members in this House who lists a student loan on her pecuniary interests, I would actually like to talk about the generational politics of student support. In the late 1980s and the late 1990s something happened for a generation of young New Zealanders, and I and a number of my colleagues on this side of this House had their politics born at this time. My colleagues Andrew Little and Grant Robertson first spoke to your predecessor, Mr Speaker, Dr The Rt Hon Lockwood Smith, down megaphones on university campuses in New Zealand in the late 1990s. It was around this very issue of paying for our education and how we were going to fund that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that for politicians of my generation on this side of the House, student loans and student politics have been defining factors for us. What we have in this Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d5601f2220b4329b2b972484c355778\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It was for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221255255466214667af7309575b8e29e7\u0022\u003EDr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was not, Mr Mallard. I could talk about the free education that your generation got\u2014a nice part of our history. Mr Mallard will have the right of rebuttal in his speech when he comes to that. But one of the things that we have to think very carefully about is what is actually being done in this piece of legislation. This piece of legislation that we have before us is nothing but a gimmick. It is a headline-grabbing gimmick from a National Government that wants to appear hard on criminals, only in this case those criminals are student loan borrowers who might be trying to sneak back into their country through the secret passages of airport terminals. It is going to set up very good border security. Get the beagles out\u2014those criminals might be trying to sneak back in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ELet us actually have a look at the kind of advice that the former Minister of Revenue got in regard to this measure when he suggested it as one of his big flagship items in Budget 2013. Well, he was told that the police had advised him that very little could be achieved without photos in the crowded area of airports, that it would be difficult, and that it would be time-consuming. So the very people who are going to be called on to monitor this legislation, to enforce this legislation, told the Minister who introduced it that it was going to be difficult to do. The officials went on to tell the Minister that the proposal would have cost implications for the courts, and that although the number of expected arrest warrants was low and the exact number was unknown, the cost to the courts had not been estimated. The full cost of doing this has not even been calculated. Its sole purpose was to create a big headline about how something big was going to be done to create what is, in the grand scheme of the student loan scheme, a minor problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EShould student loan borrowers who are living overseas be making their repayments? Absolutely. We are not disputing that. But what we are saying is that this is a big gimmick, where actually what we could have are far more effective measures to achieve the desired outcome of making it easier for overseas-based borrowers to make their repayments. I will give some credit to this Government. I think this Government has put in place several measures to make the repayment of student loans for those overseas much more simple. I have talked to numerous friends of mine who live overseas who have student loans who are no longer having to try to figure out how, through a bank, to do a bank transfer. There are much more seamless and integrated ways to do this, and this is to be congratulated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut then, on the other hand, this Government has made it much harder for student loan borrowers who are living overseas. It has reduced the repayment holiday for those who are going out to seek their adventure in the world, to gain the experience that we know will make New Zealand a great place. That experience is to be celebrated, but by truncating the amount of time you can be overseas without making repayments, we are restricting the opportunities of so many of our young people. This is something that we should not be doing. This is not to the benefit of us as a country. This is not what we envision when we think about what our education system can deliver for our 21st century New Zealand. It is just not on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOver the last few months I have had a reasonably steady stream of emails from student loan borrowers who are living overseas who now face really real consequences to their lives. I implore this Government to put in place some more carrots to make it possible for these people. Sometimes life intervenes, and people have got themselves into a predicament where they now are so far behind in their student loan repayments, they live overseas, and the prospect of coming forward is just too daunting. It is not that they do not want to start making their repayments. They are happy to start making repayments and making them regularly, but what is absolutely frightening them is the prospect of the size of the back payment they may have to stump up with. Some of these people are in their late 30s and early 40s now, if they are like me and they started university in the very first years of the student loan scheme. They have bought a house, they have got on with their lives, and they are living in fear for their security\u2014that they are going to have to sell their house in order to make these repayments. Why can we not have some period of amnesty where people can come forward, they can start their repayment schedule, but they are not going to have to rip apart the fabric of their lives in order for them to get their house in order, as it were? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI urge the Minister to think about this and for members opposite to think about this\u2014that we are not going to destroy the lives of New Zealanders who are living overseas, or we are not going to make New Zealanders living overseas make a decision of \u201CWell, I\u2019m just not ever going to go back to New Zealand. That\u2019s it. I can\u2019t. We\u2019re not going to darken its doors again, because it is just too difficult.\u201D Let us actually make it more easy. Let us take away the difficulties for these people to put everything in place. We know that this works. When Labour was in power, it introduced an amnesty for student loan borrowers when Dr Cullen was the Minister of Finance, and it was very successful. Thousands and thousands and thousands of people came forward, and we actually did see real results. Why is it that we would not think about a measure such as that in relation to this? Members of my generation face very different prospects for their future from those of their predecessors\u2014the people who have gone before them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnother measure\u2014not only is there the big headline \u201CArrest them at the border.\u201D that was introduced in this bill but also there were measures to speed up the repayments from compliant overseas-based borrowers. One of the important facts to remember is that the rates for student loan borrowers are based on the level of their loan and not their income. So if you have gone to live overseas and you are working as a waitress, your repayments are going to be the same as if you were a lawyer. This is not a repayment schedule that is based on income. This is not a progressive repayment schedule. It is based on the balance of your loan. These repayments are going to be increased through this piece of legislation, and an even more regressive system is going to be put in place. It is going to make it even more difficult for overseas borrowers, and run the risk of more people getting into the situation where it is simply too difficult and they are not compliant with their repayments. This is from a Government that does not believe in fairness. It is from a Government that does not believe in equality. It does not believe in giving young New Zealanders every chance to get ahead, and that is what we need to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI would like to see so many changes to this legislation. Labour is opposing this legislation, but we know that it will make its way to the select committee. I implore members opposite to actually have an open mind. Think about what this is doing to a generation of New Zealanders, because it is not fair and it is not equitable. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022 data-id=\u002264076672c34c490488f9f6d485570451\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264076672c34c490488f9f6d485570451\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Well, there has been another Budget, back in May, and now we have in front of us in the House another series of bad student loan amendment changes. For a Government that loves to deal in stereotypes, lazy, privileged students are a favourite. So, without fail, every year you can predict in every Budget there will be some kind of punitive change to student loans and allowances, and then a few months later, as we are here tonight, we will be here in Parliament debating the legislation to give effect to them. This time it is the lazy, loan-defaulting overseas borrowers who, of course, in fact, are not actually students at all, but are graduates, and who are unlikely enough as it is to ever come home to New Zealand to contribute to our economy and society without slapping them with the measures in this bill, the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3). The fact of the matter is that those stereotypes that the Government loves to peddle are hardly ever accurate. Later in my contribution, I will give you a real-life example of the types of people likely to be impacted by these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EBut, first of all, let us have a look at what the bill actually does. As we have heard from previous speakers, the headline provision of this bill is that it allows the Inland Revenue Department to request an arrest warrant for student loan borrowers who \u201Cpersistently default on their student loan obligations.\u201D The first thing I would point out here is that this is hardly a proportionate policy response to the amount of debt that overseas borrowers owe in default. At the time of the Budget, we saw some great headlines from the Government about how overseas borrowers owed $427 million of debt in default, which sounds like a lot. But when you put it in the context of the $13 billion of total student debt, it is a drop in the bucket. It is, in fact, 3.2 percent of the total student debt. It is not a proportionate response from the Government to target that 3.2 percent of total student debt with measures like that proposed in the bill. It makes it a criminal offence for overseas borrowers to knowingly fail or refuse to make efforts to pay. They have to make it a criminal offence, because you need to be committing some kind of criminal offence in order to be able to grant an arrest warrant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003ELet us just think about this for a minute. Having lived and studied overseas for a number of years, I can confirm that it is very easy to get behind on your student loan repayments while you are overseas. Notwithstanding some recent changes that have made it slightly easier, it is still difficult. Information is hard to come by. It is complicated to make voluntary repayments. Communicating with StudyLink from overseas is difficult. Negotiating a repayment holiday or an interest exemption is unnecessarily complicated, as I found when I tried to convince the New Zealand Qualifications Authority that my Master\u2019s degree from the University of Oxford was equivalent to a level 7 qualification in New Zealand, which apparently it did not believe. Many New Zealanders living or studying overseas simply give up, and they resolve to deal with the problem when they get back to New Zealand. Is that the right thing to do? Probably not, but it is the reality. When it is that complicated and difficult, it is not surprising that that is the attitude many graduates take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is make it much more difficult for people who do this to come home and sort it out. It whacks them with a massive disincentive to ever come home, because they will now face potential arrest and criminal conviction. It is madness, I would contend, for New Zealand to be introducing laws and policies that make it less likely for our tertiary graduates living overseas to come home, when in fact we have record numbers of New Zealanders leaving every year and not coming back. We need policies that encourage them to come home, like the opportunity of a debt write-off scheme for staying in, and contributing to, New Zealand, not policies like this that scare them off from ever returning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003ENot only is the threat of arrest and a criminal record a major deterrent against returning to New Zealand for borrowers, but also it poses major enforcement challenges. As noted in the regulatory impact statement and by the previous speaker, Megan Woods, there are some difficulties around enforcement powers in airports. It will be up to the police to decide whether to exercise these arrest powers. I put it to the House as to whether it is really the best use of police time at our airports to have the police running around after student loan defaulters and trying to make a judgment call about whether their bags are already on the plane and whether they have children with them, and therefore whether it is worth actually arresting them. I do not think so, because I think the police at our airports have a far more important job to do, which is actually providing airport security. So enforcement is a joke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EThe second major change that this bill makes is increasing the repayment obligations for overseas borrowers, and that is specifically for borrowers with balances greater than $45,000. Those with a balance between $45,000 and $60,000 will now have to pay back $4,000 a year on their loan regardless of their income, and those with a balance of over $60,000 will have to pay back $5,000 a year on their loan. The major flaw with these new repayment obligations is that they are in no way means tested, so a graduate living overseas could have a very low income or, indeed, no income at all, and still be required to pay $5,000 a year off their student loan. If they do not, because it is simply impossible for them to do so because they do not have an income that allows them to do that, then they face the punitive arrest powers granted by the bill. So it becomes a vicious cycle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EThe changes in the bill very much depend on that threat of an arrest warrant actually working as an incentive to start repaying. If that threat does not work, if it does the opposite and simply makes a person throw up their hands and say \u201CWell, I\u2019m not even going to try.\u201D\u2014and the officials note in their advice that they do not expect this threat to be particularly effective\u2014then all that this change will do is increase the rate of growth of default by increasing the repayment obligation, and that is noted for the Minister of Revenue in the regulatory impact statement. Clearly, he chose to ignore it. This really begs the question of whether the Government is actually interested in pursuing practical legislative change, or just interested in trying to be seen to crack down on those lazy students and graduates. But as I said at the outset of my contribution, I think we all know which of those it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EIn addition, the bill inexplicably changes the repayment rules for overseas borrowers so that their repayment obligation does not decrease as their loan balance decreases. I cannot for the life of me figure out why this has been included and what it achieves. It is manifestly unfair because it creates an inequity where two overseas borrowers who owe the same amount today could have very different repayment obligations based on what their loans were when they left New Zealand some time ago, not based on what they have repaid since and not based on their income. Again, this puts in place another disincentive to them to actually meet their repayment obligations, since there is no reward for them doing so in the form of a decreasing obligation. I cannot see what is achieved, in the Government\u2019s view, by including that in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003EAt this point I want to place on record before the House a real-life example of how the new repayment obligations would affect a New Zealand family living overseas. This family wrote to us at the time that the changes were announced in May, in Budget 2013. This is their situation. The husband has a postdoctoral fellowship in the United States worth $41,000. The wife is currently being examined for her PhD, but she is otherwise unemployed. They have a toddler and a second baby on the way. Combined, their minimum compulsory repayment threshold has now just increased from $6,000 a year to $9,000 a year, which as far as they can tell\u2014and they are correct in this\u2014has no means testing or anything that takes into account their income, the fact that they have only one income, and the fact that they have two dependants; only the fact that they are now living overseas. At the current exchange rate for where they live, that roughly calculates to 18.6 percent of their household income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E They chose to leave New Zealand to do a postdoctoral job because it is how that father can establish his international career, but they have a strong intention of returning to New Zealand and fully intend to pay off their loans. Indeed, they are currently fully compliant with their loan repayment obligations. But they cannot do it in a way that will stretch them so financially when they have children so young. Are these lazy, privileged, obligation-dodging students\u2014the stereotype the Government likes to peddle in? No, they are not. They are hard-working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaaa70d52da44f3d856029109d9a14be\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: John Hayes says \u201CYes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022387586c543314cedb347b3f0af99d783\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: John Hayes says \u201CYes.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1a6637cf94846e2b4037922d11f115f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: He got a free education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022383363d0-b05b-469f-9cf9-a990d946d1b9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ff6c8e747f4681b85ad5930a84d7b3\u0022\u003EHOLLY WALKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good on you, Mr Hayes; I will let them know that you said that. They are actually hard-working New Zealanders who are building their careers overseas and starting their family, and are currently fully compliant with all of their obligations. What on earth is achieved by sucking out nearly 20 percent of their income on to their student loan repayments back home at a time when they only have one income and two small children? It is beyond me. Perhaps John Hayes would like to take a call and elaborate on that. So this is a dangerous and unnecessarily punitive policy that is based on the Government wanting to be seen to do something on a populist problem, and not based at all on facts or real-life evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00220142cf98f10046ddb363e85899fb8e7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220142cf98f10046ddb363e85899fb8e7a\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure for me to stand and take a call on the first reading of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3). New Zealand has one of the most generous student loan schemes in the world but I think it is important to realise that it is a loan scheme. It is not a gift. It is not a bequest. It is a loan. The very nature of a loan is that it is repaid. It is a very simple premise. Loans are, by their very nature, to be repaid. This bill is about people who owe money to taxpayers, and it is expecting them to pay it back. That is all it is. This bill is about expecting them to pay back taxpayers\u2019 money, and it is expecting them to take personal responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMy colleague the honourable David Bennett has already mentioned some of the quite alarming statistics where overseas borrowers make up 15 percent of the number of borrowers, but they make up 64 percent of those in default, and they owe 85 percent of the total debt. In fact, they owe something like $536 million compared with $93 million for New Zealand borrowers. So this is actually incentivising overseas-based borrowers who are letting the side down with their slow repayments and their high level of loan defaults, and it is actually impressing upon them the importance that it is a debt, it needs to be repaid, it is too high, and we expect them to abide by and comply with their side of the bargain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe loan scheme does represent a major financial commitment by the Government and by taxpayers to support people in tertiary education. We certainly want to support students in tertiary education, but it is important that students do take personal responsibility for repaying their loans. Loan borrowers need to keep up their end of the deal. They need to repay their loans promptly, particularly those borrowers from overseas. This bill is a good bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u0022641a94b20d154c739318a69aefe75d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022641a94b20d154c739318a69aefe75d8f\u0022\u003ETRACEY MARTIN (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. I had hoped to start my contribution with the things that New Zealand First agrees with, but, unfortunately, I am going to have to get sidetracked a bit and correct some of the anomalies in the information provided by Government members. This is what happens when you pass speech notes between each other\u2014the same wrong information gets repeated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI am not sure whether Government members have bothered to read the student loan scheme report that their own officials put together for 2012. If they would like to go and have a look on page 35 I think they will find that what we are talking about is debt that has been unpaid for a period of over 5 years. It values at $284 million. There are 33,000 New Zealanders whom we are talking about, and 3,000 of them are currently still residing in New Zealand, so that gives us 30,000 New Zealanders who are based overseas. Fourteen percent of that outstanding amount is to borrowers who took out their loans in 1992. So if we just put some real facts and figures on the table\u2014and I could always get a copy of the report for Government members if they would like to read the facts\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab0dde39e79545ed8de9f77e77d6a7b4\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: The logic remains the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c4c1d7cd97424292ff2fcb4a57b629\u0022\u003ETRACEY MARTIN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, Ms Barry would not want to read the facts. The other thing, too, that we need to correct is that Minister Todd McClay said that these powers would be used only when all other methods are exhausted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EIf I take the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) and turn to page 6, new section 162B(3), inserted by clause 8, in Part 1 states: \u201CTo avoid doubt, the court may make an order under subsection (2) even if the Commissioner is able to recover the debt by other means.\u201D So, in other words, it specifically says that an arrest warrant can be sought even if there are other means to gain this debt, to secure this debt. Let us just put that on the record for the Minister. I can send him a copy of that, highlighted, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EOne other little thing, before I get on to New Zealand First\u2019s major contribution, is that there is nothing as annoying as an arrogant Government that decides that legislation will be passed prior to it even having its first reading. This is an excerpt from StudyLink today. It says: \u201CGoing overseas? ... From 1 April 2014: Inland Revenue will be able to request an arrest warrant for borrowers who knowingly defaulted on their overseas-based repayment obligation and are about to leave New Zealand.\u201D Why on earth would we bother with democracy, I would ask you, if you can tell your Government department, before a bill even has a reading in this House, to put up the legislation that you are going to push through, regardless of any submission and regardless of any common sense that might be placed in front of you? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ESo, back to the beginning\u2014there are some things inside this legislation that New Zealand First agrees with, although it is very interesting that since the introduction of the student loan scheme in 1992 there have been 15 major amendments to this Act. So I do not think it is any wonder that New Zealand citizens sometimes get a bit confused about the process by which they are able to pay back and fulfil their payment responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has no issue with the small amendment proposed to section 110 of the Student Loan Scheme Act that retains a constant amount of loan repayment, as opposed to the current decreasing loan repayment amount. Unlike my colleague Ms Walker, having previously been a debt collector and credit controller I can see that there is actually a win-win situation out of this, where the borrower has the early removal of a burden of debt and the lender has faster access to those funds for re-lending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First also has no issue with the sharing of contact details between the Department of Internal Affairs and the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. In fact, again I would have to say that if this ability had been placed inside legislation a lot earlier we would not be looking at 30,000 people overseas because we would have actually been interacting with them earlier. We would not have allowed 5 years to pass before we even decided to start talking to these people appropriately, and we would not have $284 million worth of defaulted debt right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First agrees that if you have a debt\u2014a fair, reasonable, and legitimate debt\u2014then the responsible action is to repay that debt. But one cannot get blood out of a stone. It is with great sadness that New Zealand First will be unable to support this bill at its first reading because of the inclusion of what is an incredibly blunt instrument that would allow New Zealand students, graduates, and citizens\u2014because not all people with a debt who have gone overseas, particularly in this economic environment, are actually graduates. Not all of them are university students. Many of them have been to a polytech. They have got a StudyLink loan and they have had to leave the country for other reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThis is a Dickensian step, and it is appropriate to mention Dickens because his father was sent to a debtors\u2019 prison back in the day, prior to the Debtors Act of 1869. Imprisonment for debt was then abolished and replaced by bankruptcy law. No one could argue that our citizens were not able to travel as much as they can now to avoid debt. But I would counter that argument with the fact that with the invention of the internet, credit ratings can also travel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E New Zealand First can see no practical sense in waiting for the defaulting borrower to return home one day from foreign shores and hope that they have $30,000, or $40,000, or $50,000 on them when they get to the exit gate, or we are going to send them to jail\u2014especially when there are so many other options available to the Government. There are more modern, sophisticated ways of affecting a defaulter\u2019s life, no matter where they are in the world. We refer to the listing of these individuals on to international credit rating agencies, so that no matter where they are in the world, when they go to purchase a car, or buy a home, or get a store card, their account will be tagged that they owe the New Zealand Government. Over a certain material threshold, this will affect their ability to borrow and to purchase, which is a more immediate incentive to pay off, or come to an arrangement, so that that tag can be removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First also points to the other methods already available to the Government. An example would be the provisions that are currently available in the Customs and Excise Act 1996. If one looks at section 280D(4)(h), the Customs Service and the department\u2014and this could include the Inland Revenue Department\u2014can facilitate the exchange of information on the date on which the person arrives in New Zealand, just as they can upon the departure of that individual. Would it not be smarter to intercept the defaulter on their way into the country so as to have a greater opportunity to set in place a payment structure prior to them wishing to depart? This is supposed to be about helping our citizens meet their obligations. There is an obligation on the lender, just as there is on the borrower, to make sure that a relationship is created that is easy and that works for both sides without disadvantaging both sides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThese are New Zealanders, and they are not criminals. Today, these people are students who have been driven overseas by the lack of opportunity offered for employment in their own nation. At the very worst, these citizens are guilty of breaking a contract to repay. So if we are going to allow these citizens to be arrested for breaking a contract about debt, will we allow banks to imprison mortgagee defaulters? What about the Farmers\u2019 Trading Co., or GE Money? Are we looking at a future where our last debtors\u2019 prison in Dunedin, which was shut in the 1860s, needs to be reopened to house all those who find themselves unable to pay? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EIt would appear that part of the motivation for this Draconian step is the idea that all these students are living in the lap of luxury, laughing as they rip off the New Zealand taxpayer. I can find no documentation to support this. Perhaps this group of people is hanging out with the children of millionaires in our universities, which is the reason Michael Woodhouse recently gave to all our students having to gain a debt to learn. Or perhaps they are related to the millionaire SuperGold card holders who ride for free on the Waiheke Island ferry, which is another myth that this Government likes to put out to justify charging our citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EIn reality, according to the Student Loan Scheme Annual Report 2012, on page 32, compliance by overseas borrowers around payment has increased by 20.5 percent since the amendments made to this legislation in 2012, and the increase in the number of overseas borrowers with a repayment obligation rose from 42 percent to 64 percent in the 2010-11 year, due to a large number of borrowers having come to the end of their repayment holiday. The Government needs to look at its figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00227329892e9bba4ab6acb481d36a27e318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227329892e9bba4ab6acb481d36a27e318\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E That was a particularly interesting intervention from the member Tracey Martin from the New Zealand First Party. Her leader was at most of the meetings of the Finance and Expenditure Committee where issues around student loans have been discussed over the last 18 months, and not one of the ideas that she brought up and aired in the House this evening was ever expressed to the committee by her leader, who had ample opportunity to do so over the last 2 years. It is quite astonishing, really. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAs I listened to the debate in the House this evening there is a disconnect between the views of those in the Labour Party, those in the Green Party, and those in New Zealand First, and reality. The reality is this: we are not dealing here with the Government\u2019s money, and that seems to underpin most of the comments I have heard tonight. We are dealing with money that has been taken out of taxpayers\u2019 pockets. I am thinking of Lachie the calf-feeder in Greytown, who gets paid $20 an hour for his work, starting at about 4 in the morning and going through the day. The money comes from his taxes. I think of Lindsay the builder, who is working on my own house at the moment for $20 a year. He has never had a rise in 6 years. That money has come out of his\u2014[Interruption] He works for a contractor, and this money is coming out of their pockets. They are paying the taxes for people like you to fund your own education, and you come into this House and you have not paid your loan back to those people. You still declare it as a pecuniary interest because it is better for you to have an interest-free loan than to pay the money back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ad41c15500542b3a44576d9d33d24bf\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was not aware that you had a loan that you declared as your pecuniary interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d68641b48042189789f0b411ea952b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I just caution the member to be very careful about what he is saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280fca47562ff43a5aaf662b2ed723f84\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am being quite straightforward about this. This money came out of taxpayer pockets, and the hypocrisy on that side of the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022023e1bf95ade4b5889b2d4c3867a8f90\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will withdraw that comment. You cannot say that word in this House. Withdraw the comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673502d8e6594b8ba578bea1b61c8346\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw the comment. What I find is the disconnect, and I cannot build an association between those people who, on the one hand, profess to help the downtrodden, and take money out of their pockets, put it into their own pockets, take the loans, come in here on $140,000 or $150,000 a year, and pay nothing back. It is outrageous\u2014absolutely outrageous. Our interest-free student loan scheme is the most generous in the Western World, and we want to keep it that way. The student loan scheme represents a huge financial commitment by taxpayers\u2014by ordinary people. This is not the Government\u2019s money; this is community money, which comes out of people\u2019s pockets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe want to support students in tertiary education, but it is really important for students to take personal responsibility for repaying their loans, particularly when they are on a good salary. It should be done more quickly. Overseas borrowers are continuing to let the side down, with slow repayments and high levels of loan defaults compared with those who stay in New Zealand and pay off their loans. As the New Zealand First member pointed out, since 1992, 14 percent of students have not paid back their loans, after 21 years. I think that is unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAlthough the Government has made some progress with these overseas-based borrowers, it is time to up the ante. If left to my own devices, I would cancel their passports. I would not renew them until the loans have been paid. This bill does not go that far, but it goes some way to encourage the money to be paid back, and we need that to happen to keep faith with ordinary taxpayers. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002297a1d8381da8483d854df86c0c9d5cbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297a1d8381da8483d854df86c0c9d5cbb\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to make sure the people of New Zealand know that John Hayes wants to cancel your passport. That is what he just said. He said that if you are someone who has borrowed from the student loan scheme and you might be having some trouble paying it back, John Hayes is going to cancel your passport. And while he is at it, he is going to pay his builder 20 bucks a year\u2014$20 a year, is what he said. We are debating the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3), and what Mr Hayes does not understand is that the whole point of supporting tertiary education is so that the children of John Hayes\u2019 builder can go on and get a degree, become an astrophysicist, and earn a lot more than 20 bucks a year from John Hayes. That is why we support people in tertiary education, Mr Hayes. It is to give them opportunity. We want to see all New Zealanders get that chance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we have got today is the first ever tertiary education Minister who has made it his business to take away opportunity from New Zealanders. The very first thing Steven Joyce said when he became tertiary education Minister was that his goal was to dampen demand for tertiary education. He said he wanted to dampen demand. In real people\u2019s language, that means taking away opportunity from young New Zealanders. Step by step, little by little, Mr Joyce is taking away opportunity from young New Zealanders. That is because he does not want to face up to the fact that he hates the interest-free student loan scheme. He does not want the interest-free student loan scheme to exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn that he is consistent with his leader John Key, who stood up in this House when Labour brought in the interest-free student loan scheme, and he said: \u201CI will oppose this bill with every bone in my body.\u201D Well, the Prime Minister\u2014or as he shall now be known, the jellyfish\u2014has failed to oppose it at all. He decided that he had better grab it because it was popular, but his party and Steven Joyce, his Minister, have never supported an interest-free student loan scheme. What has National done in the time it has been in office? It has systematically undermined New Zealand students\u2019 access to education, taking away postgraduate student allowances and preventing people aged 55 years and over\u2014this is for you, Mr Mallard\u2014from borrowing under the student loan scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI have had in my office someone laid off from the Public Service; a single woman who knows that she will be in the workforce for at least another 10 or 12 years. She wants to go back and retrain, but Mr Joyce, Mr Key, and the National Party say that that person is not worthy of that opportunity and that she is not going to be supported to take that on. That is wrong. And then in this Budget the Government said that it was going to lower that down. It was not satisfied just with taking to people in Mr Mallard\u2019s age group. The National Government said that people over the age of 40 are limited to 3 years of allowances\u2014that is it. They are not allowed to go on and retrain and go on to postgraduate study. Far be it from us to have more people in postgraduate study. This Government\u2019s small-minded taking away of opportunity for New Zealanders is shameful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd then we come to the student loan scheme. We come to the student loan scheme, where, just to make sure that the Government could reach another few people, it increased the repayment rate from 10c in the dollar to 12c in the dollar. That might not seem like much to Mr Joyce, but if you are a young couple starting out, both with loans, trying to set yourself into your first home, that extra payment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022656e1a9925ce49cf9f79a068aa416cd8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: With kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740cd7b5c3a14654a2ad5ea03197df9c\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with kids\u2014limits your opportunities. That is the problem for Mr Joyce. He is taking away from young families the opportunity to get ahead in life, so he comes to this House\u2014or Todd McClay on his behalf\u2014with a bill that is just purely and simply a gimmick. That is all it is. The police have asked how on earth they are going to look after this. Kris Faafoi, the police spokesperson for the Labour Party, has brought up in this House time and time again the fact that under Anne Tolley\u2019s watch the number of police on the beat is going down. Well, here are Steven Joyce and Todd McClay saying that we should have police at the airport chasing people who have not paid their student loan. Is that the best use of police resources, Mr Joyce? No, it is not. It is not the best use of police resources, and the police themselves have told the Government that it is not the best use of their resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENobody has costed out what this measure will mean in terms of cost to the courts, because this bill is just a gimmick. It is quite simply a gimmick from a Government that does not want young New Zealanders to get the opportunities they should have. The Government simply wants to make sure that tertiary education stays as the preserve of the privileged over there. John Hayes stood up in this House tonight. Did he get a free education? Was the taxpayer paying for John Hayes to go to Lincoln University? Was the taxpayer paying for that? He is very quiet. He is very quiet because he knows that he is taking from a future generation what he had. He is not offering to this generation the opportunity that he had, and that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe need to invest in tertiary education. We need to make sure that all New Zealanders who are able and capable can take on a tertiary qualification. That might be at a university or it might be in a trade or it might be in a polytech or it might be in a w\u0101nanga, but this National Party has said that only those who can really afford it are the ones who should go there. Well, we on the Labour Party side of the House say that tertiary education is an investment. The student loan scheme is interest-free because of Labour, and we will not support a bill that is quite simply just a gimmick. We want to see legislation that means that all young people are supported into tertiary education, that those who need to retrain are given that opportunity, and that we invest in postgraduate study to get the scientists and to get the researchers who are going to lift our economy. This Government has no vision for tertiary education. This bill is a weak, weak gimmick, and we on this side of the House will strongly oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022817bf05a67bc4e1d8c27bd1803c56b51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022817bf05a67bc4e1d8c27bd1803c56b51\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, hard on the heels of Grant Robertson\u2019s \u201Cweak, weak gimmick\u201D, which would be the epitaph of contender No. 2\u2014or is he No. 3; where is the smart money these days\u2014I would have to say that the smart money when it comes to the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) is on people repaying their debts. Pay it back. I too have had letters. The Greens were talking a little earlier about how they had had elaborate letters from people who felt they were under extreme hardship, and who had taken choices to have a family, to get higher education, or to move overseas, and then they complained about paying back their debt. Well, I have also had a lot of letters from people who are unhappy about the student loan repayment scheme, because they are students who have repaid their debt, and they are not at all happy with the bludgers, as they call them, and the welchers. It is a debt; it is not a gift. It is something that they have to give back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207aa7b8a6a564b5db3b182c441407d4b\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Not a bribe from the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223af7cd3ac1f24b8a931ffb0eef364dca\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a bribe from the Labour Party\u2014good thought. It has been in the past. No, no, we have put that on the straight and narrow. It is an important matter of principle, and I am not surprised that the buffoons on the other side of the Chamber do not understand this principle. It is about entering into an obligation and then fulfilling that obligation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EAs a nation we need students. They are special, they need to be cultivated, and they need to get a good education. They also need to take personal responsibility, own up to the agreement that they made, and pay their debts back. That is fair. That is why we gave the loans to them. If they do not do that, why should they get special treatment? Why should they not be treated in the same way as all other tax defaulters are? They need to be held accountable, and that is what we are suggesting in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI think others have gone through the numbers. They have talked about the amount of money that people, particularly overseas, have paid. One of the interesting things I heard\u2014because I did sit through the select committee on this, unlike a lot of the speakers on the opposing side\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd09323330a4e1788557babb736f490\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: It hasn\u2019t been to select committee yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af692cf45ff74971bbfe9b1c1c99ed7f\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when I listened carefully to some of the submitters, the Inland Revenue Department, for example, was that it had some really interesting points to make. And if the yap, yap, yap of the chihuahua could just stay silent, she might learn something to her advantage\u2014namely, that the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s experience showed that 70 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225309c874565847b0ad0cc88203c35db2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Two points: I think we are on the first reading of this bill, and I think that is relatively important, but, more important, although I am a person who appreciates and likes animals, the description of one of my colleagues from New Zealand First in those terms is just not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b89987e022c4317a89b15c3c4676177\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am sorry I did not hear that comment, but I just caution the member. And we are on a first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c67268d0f6704c6e9e968e2e2be300ad\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I did not mention a New Zealand First member. That was that member\u2019s one plus one makes two. The maths, Mr Mallard, is not correct, so your point of order is wasted on most of us, if not you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbdc9b7d81a24d95854b855bf1cb59d9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220db2a749dd74d629bb6b75d42b171ac\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, I will deal with this. [Interruption] Order! Look, when I have ruled on a matter, that is the end of it, and we do not enter into any further comments on the Speaker\u2019s ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241aa23ad48b04078907cfcc1af77e3cf\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, as I was about to wrap up my call, the Inland Revenue Department talked about the success that it has had with contacting the families of overseas-based borrowers, whereby those borrowers actually do pay back their loans at a high rate, and that is because the parents are ashamed. The parents get the call and they go: \u201CThis is awful. We\u2019re not going to put up with this.\u201D They ring their children and put on quite a lot of pressure, and it actually works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ESo too will these measures. Arrest at the border is an extreme measure that might be brought into position. It might be put into use if it is absolutely essential. These are measures that we have to take very reluctantly in order to bring a small number of defaulters back into line. And a student loan is exactly that. It needs to be paid back, because it is not a gift. That is a very good position and that is why I commend this bill to the House very happily. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002248542f45be384bc286ff7f3b7e21638b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248542f45be384bc286ff7f3b7e21638b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5c75fa03ec8477fadd2f1badc9f2231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5c75fa03ec8477fadd2f1badc9f2231\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I think perhaps next time, before Maggie Barry decides to give us a great spiel about what happened at a select committee, she might want to check whether, in fact, the select committee meetings had even taken place. This is the first reading of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3), so in order for Maggie Barry to reflect on all of the things that happened at the select committee, she might want to check to make sure that the select committee had actually happened. I do not know of any bill that has been in this House for a first reading that has gone to a select committee before it has even been read in the House for a first time. I think that only in the parallel universe that Maggie Barry inhabits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fb616997edd4d77b6d0dc5f0049c47c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Delirious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f130a27635e24138a3a9dbbe075c0df8\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the delirious parallel universe that Maggie Barry inhabits\u2014would a bill go to a select committee before it has had even a first reading in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E This bill says an awful lot about the National Government, which is quite happy to pick on people who find themselves on hard times and who do make some mistakes, and who do, for whatever reason, find themselves in default on their student loans. Yes, people who borrow with student loans should pay them back, but many times people find themselves in a difficult position because they go overseas, or for other reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOf course, other people find themselves in a difficult position. The owners of MediaWorks found themselves in a difficult position and Steven Joyce was only too happy to help them out with their loan. There was no problem in helping them out with their loan. But when it comes to a student or a recent graduate who gets into a bit of trouble with their loan, Steven Joyce wants to whack handcuffs on them. Why does he not have the same standard for the people who are in receipt of corporate welfare under this Government? It seems that we have one standard for those whom the National Government thinks should receive corporate welfare and another standard for the genuinely needy New Zealanders who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in need of a little bit of assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI am very proud to stand here as a Labour member of Parliament, because I think that in the 9 years that Labour was last in Government we did a number of incredibly good things with the student loan scheme that were designed to ensure that no New Zealander was prevented from participating in tertiary education by the cost of it. Yet Steven Joyce has openly said that his intention is the opposite. His intention is to dampen the demand for tertiary education by making it more difficult to get into and by making it more expensive. He has basically said that some people are just too old for tertiary education, and that once they get to a certain age they should not be able to access tertiary education any more. That is Steven Joyce\u2019s view. Steven Joyce also does not think that we should offer full levels of student support to people who are doing postgraduate study. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWell, I have news for Steven Joyce, who is also the Minister for Economic Development. If we are genuinely committed to economic development, perhaps we might want to focus on supporting the people who are doing advanced qualifications and might actually have some ideas about how we can get the boat to go faster. But, no, not Steven Joyce. He wants to dampen demand for tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOf course, tertiary education is not just about universities. Student loans are not accessed only by people who go to university. They are accessed by many, many people who go into other professions, including the trades, and Steven Joyce is just as intent to pick on those as he is to pick on university students. We should not ever allow this to be an elitist argument, because actually student loans apply to all forms of tertiary education. Steven Joyce should not be pulling up the ladder on those people who want to get ahead. That is exactly what this Government is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI can say that the previous Labour Government was working incredibly hard to make sure that tertiary education was more affordable by making sure that fees were frozen, by making sure that student loans were interest free, and by increasing eligibility for allowances. All of those things are being undone by the Government. Fees are going up again at a phenomenal rate, like they used to do. Access to allowances is being cut, and we are seeing the Government reintroducing costs on student loans. So although Government members may say they want interest-free student loans, they introduce an administration fee here, they cut eligibility there, and they do all sorts of other things, because fundamentally they do not like interest-free student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI believed John Key when he said he thought interest-free student loans were communism by stealth, or whatever\u2014no, that might have been Working for Families. But he was going to fight it with every bone in his body, and I tell you what\u2014he has not given up on that. They may say that they are going to keep interest-free student loans, but they fundamentally do not believe in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229a5d4a009fa841dfa6fc542748c7b43b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a5d4a009fa841dfa6fc542748c7b43b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a document prepared by the Parliamentary Service, which is a flow chart of legislation that indicates that the select committees on which members sit and at which submissions are heard follows the first reading of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9798302ba9443f1b6a744e493debc1c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that information is readily available to any member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002268320e0d97ec440289ff1b6ffd114af2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268320e0d97ec440289ff1b6ffd114af2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If it was freely available to members, one would think that members such as Maggie Barry would obtain it and read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f591ed98ce4d84bc892e8dfea9c3c9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcaad31f1dde48428cb77ab2e0b8ba47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcaad31f1dde48428cb77ab2e0b8ba47\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to join with my Green colleague, and indeed my Labour and New Zealand First colleagues, to take a brief call to speak in opposition to this very ill-conceived piece of legislation, the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3). It is not unusual for the Greens to oppose Government legislation, but occasionally I think it is incumbent on us just to retain some perspective, and to ask the question: what is this Government good at? It must have some talents, some abilities. One can pose the question and get quite a long silence while one waits for an answer. But it has to be said\u2014and it has been proven a number of times just in the last few days\u2014that this Government has an absolute talent for creating legislative sledgehammers for cracking very small nuts. It is a skill it seems to portray at every opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is indicative to me of the fact that Government members have never quite got their heads around the old saying that goes something like this: for every complex problem there is a simple, clear answer and it is always wrong. This bill represents a very simple, clear\u2014and one could even say simplistic\u2014approach to an issue that does need to be dealt with, and it is a patently wrong approach. It is clear that this fondness\u2014and again we have seen it characterised in a number of the pieces of legislation that have gone through just in the last few days\u2014for meddling around the margins, trying to tweak and meddle, represents a lack of vision, a lack of a strategy, and a lack of an overall understanding. The world is quite a complex place, and there are many reasons for people\u2019s behaviours, and simple punitive measures are seldom going to present a workable and viable solution to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere are, no doubt, many reasons why individuals fail to meet their obligations to repay loans, and, yes, loans are loans, and there is an obligation on people who take them to pay them back in time. But simply criminalising New Zealand citizens, some of our best and brightest, is hardly a creative approach. It does reflect a lack of imagination and a lack of ability to think through a problem and to come up with a positive solution that can actually resolve the problem. It is unlikely even to be an effective solution. One could forgive the lack of, shall we say, sensibility, but it is very unlikely to be an effective solution. Again, it is creating a great big legislative hammer that will not solve any problems that it is targeted at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe amount of money in default attributed to overseas former students, we are told, at 31 March was around $427 million. That is not an insignificant amount of money, but, again, we need to put it in the context of $13 billion of accumulated loans over the years since the loan scheme was put in place. The perverse thing is that that $13 billion actually sits on the Government\u2019s balance sheet as an asset. We have loaded $13 billion worth of debt on to some of our youngest, and our not so young, and some of our best and brightest, and that appears on the books as an asset. That is a very peculiar form of economics, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt would seem to me that the Minister of Revenue has not really read very closely the regulatory impact statement, because had he done so I suspect that this bill would never have seen the light of day. There are some really interesting points in it, which, it seems, the Government has not really taken into account. One of those is the provision in the bill that raises the repayment obligation of borrowers with loan balances greater than $45,000. I would like to quote from the regulatory impact statement. It says: \u201CThe impact of this policy\u201D\u2014the raising of the obligation at that $45,000 level\u2014\u201Con the compliance of overseas-based borrowers is uncertain.\u201D There is absolutely no guarantee it will have any positive effect. Indeed, the regulatory impact statement goes on to say: \u201CThere is risk that some previously compliant borrowers with balances greater than $45,000 will simply stop repaying or repay less than their obligation because of the higher repayment.\u201D It is creating a very perverse incentive. It is making it easier for people to make the decision to go into default rather than continue to be compliant with their loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI will not have time to work through all that is wrong with this bill, but I would like, as others have, to reflect on the position that it puts the police in. The police will become debt collectors for the tax department. I look forward to critiquing this bill in future readings. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002261065242ee414d87a27cbb6055c6e15d\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba7f75cc09524e6887b4ed4fdec71709\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0c3ed130aa34545b7f4adbd674b60d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0c3ed130aa34545b7f4adbd674b60d1\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228922aa05fcaf46ecacd66fc4c47e1bd9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227748eebca8354afd8f406ae772967023\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The area is always indicated before\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a3738d8e774aa8b145f038965e1d9c\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s it about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e914f3c2b1f24b7abe83a2137655c83c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, correcting an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e770006fda2449a8d41febdeb5b6476\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to correct an answer to oral questions today. Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b68270d8af84350837ae890930da701\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to an oral question today, although not directly answering the member\u2019s question, I made a statement that I had seen an estimate of the benefit of the Opposition\u2019s power policy to New Zealand Aluminium Smelters that was $150 million per year. That is not actually correct. The $150 million was a net present value figure and the likely correct figure would have been $15 million per year not $150 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac87333181364fec87fe4b3a841ceaeb\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adb697edc3a64a64aff0b43d694a0521\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001203\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4d72a979aba4623921b259c41e3897e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4d72a979aba4623921b259c41e3897e\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E It is an interesting night in the House because the Opposition is really getting fired up over this piece of legislation, the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3). You would think it was the worst thing in the world that we are trying to pass here, but, actually, it is eminently sensible. The Opposition does not think so. It has sent down its leadership contenders to have a go at this legislation. First we saw Cunliffe, and then we saw Robertson. He gave it a go as well. We have not seen Shane Jones yet. But what we are doing is pretty sensible. Effectively, all we are saying with this piece of legislation is that if someone is in default and they are trying to go overseas for the express purpose of trying to get away from paying their student loan obligations, then we are going to take some actions. All we are saying is that repaying your student loan debt\u2014meeting your obligations, which every New Zealander is obliged to meet if they have a student loan\u2014is important, and if they are in default, then we will be taking action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThis Government has spent a lot of time in its time in Government working on getting the student loan scheme under control, and fixing up the mess that Labour left us with after it was in Government. It had almost no rules in place and no restrictions in place in the student loan scheme at all. We saw the debt significantly ramp up, and we saw the number of people who were not meeting their obligations significantly increase as well. The Opposition might not care, but there is approximately half a billion dollars of student loan scheme money where overseas borrowers are in default. We know that overseas-based borrowers are a significant problem, because 59 percent of borrowers who are overseas are currently in default. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c17e569d6aa0486bae52161cea5ef455\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019ve got the wrong numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022404374b1d4a147a5ac45470bd157f6b8\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS\u003C/span\u003E: The Opposition and Tracey Martin might not care about that. They might not care about the good, hard-working Kiwis who are paying their obligations on a very regular basis. They might not care about them. They might not care that those people are doing things right but overseas-based borrowers are getting away in a large degree of cases. We are taking some action. Yes, sure, the arrest capability that would be inserted in this bill might seem extreme; it would only be used in the most extreme of circumstances. If someone is absolutely flouting the law, if someone is saying to the New Zealand taxpayer that they do not care about meeting their obligations, then I think the New Zealand taxpayer expects us to take some action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EIt is sensible, it is good law, and it is absolutely in line with what we have been doing as a Government in the student loan scheme area. It is absolutely in line with what we went to the public in an election to talk about and do. They support it. The Opposition is on the wrong side in this debate. It is a good thing that this is going to the Finance and Expenditure Committee so that it can be heard by the committee and people can make submissions on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292096138656c4ba7bf048eaf4198a28d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001209\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 3) be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a1279baa85f24acc87735f368465ca25\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b3470dd4744450ca6ab51a10231ea97\u0022\u003ELand Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022869209c2935a4fc6ada26da5e5fc88e5\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00223f2936d5c08543c091a1d5825a99fa7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f2936d5c08543c091a1d5825a99fa7e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: I move, That the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to consider the bill. The bill will amend the Road User Charges Act 2012 and the Land Transport Act 1998. The Road User Charges Act 2012 provides for the regulation and administration of the collection of road-user charges for the use of roads and road wear caused by vehicles subject to road-user charges, or RUC. The Land Transport Act 1998 provides for a range of functions relating to land transport including the registration and licensing of vehicles. The main purpose of this bill is to address an anomaly for some road-user charge vehicle owners who are required to purchase road-user charges for their vehicle, but are unable to do so because their vehicle is not registered and not legally required to be. Its secondary purpose is to enable annual charges in lieu of road-user charges to be collected through registration and licensing processes for vehicles exempt from road-user charges. The bill also makes other minor changes to the Road User Charges Act 2012. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EUnregistered road-user charge vehicles that are exempt from registration, are not required to be registered, or are operated under a trade plate in an unregistered state are subject to road-user charges, unless they belong to a class of vehicle that makes them specifically exempt. However, it is not possible to issue road-user charge licences to these vehicles, because road-user charge licences are linked to a vehicle\u2019s registration number. These kinds of unregistered vehicles make only limited use of roads and it is not cost-effective to try to collect road-user charges for them. The Road User Charges Act 2012 will be amended to allow regulations that exempt unregistered vehicles from road-user charges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EVehicles are exempt from road-user charges primarily because it is uneconomic to collect road-user charges for these vehicles. Most of the vehicles that are exempt from road-user charges do very little travel on roads. However, some exempt vehicles such as fast tractors do a sufficient amount of travel on roads to cause road wear, so it is fair that the owners of these vehicles should make a contribution towards the cost that they impose. This bill allows for the collection of an annual charge in lieu of road-user charges for these kinds of vehicles. By doing so it allows for the fair and practical application of road-user charges where collecting them through the normal process would be impractical and uneconomic. This bill also amends the Road User Charges Act 2012 to add offence provisions where light vehicles conditionally exempted from road-user charges are operated in breach of those conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill contains amendments of a technical nature, which support the policy aims behind road-user charges and rationalise enforcement activity. These clarify that a person who has entered into an arrangement to pay overdue fees by instalment will not be subject to additional penalties, allow the road-user charges collector to set a licence fee for one-off vehicles that are not covered by prescribed road-user charges types, and make minor amendments that allow the effective functioning of the road-user charges system. In closing, the proposed changes allow for the fair and practical application of road-user charges in a range of unusual circumstances. This is a great bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00222a5736ae15404dd593fb47d14c66d96f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a5736ae15404dd593fb47d14c66d96f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have had this a few times before and there has been a change of Ministers on occasion. The question is that this Minister did not move the bill on behalf of another Minister; does that mean that the bill is now in his name? There has been no indication to us that that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226e01384785e2453ca0f3b7c326b2ac01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e01384785e2453ca0f3b7c326b2ac01\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not the case at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002270d9e8ed5b234618ac195ac300d63e83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270d9e8ed5b234618ac195ac300d63e83\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak this evening on the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. Here we are at the first reading\u2014just to make sure all members are clear about this\u2014which comes before the select committee phase. As a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, I am looking forward to getting the opportunity to consider this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2cd1f65e8e4fcf87d5e3949cc2c55f\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re not\u2014how could you be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ceef53cd8241269bc4af96b736a8d6\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: I am\u2014I am. I am looking forward to this, Darien Fenton, because I am sick and tired of the employment legislation that we are considering at the moment. I am enjoying the submissions that we are getting from various submitters telling us what an appalling piece of legislation that is, and how it is going to depress wages and how it is going to make workers more vulnerable, but, I have to say, it is a pretty depressing situation all round. That is why\u2014you are quite right, Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014I want to come back to this bill and that is why I am looking forward to the opportunity to consider this piece of legislation, which is somewhat more innocuous than that awful piece of employment legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is appropriate that Simon Bridges read the first reading of this bill. We are not entirely sure whether it means it is now in Simon Bridges\u2019 name. If it is now in Simon Bridges\u2019 name, that would be even more appropriate. The reason for that is that this is essentially a piece of legislation to tidy up mistakes made in the last road-user charges legislation that this Government passed. Of course, the reason why it is appropriate that Simon Bridges is in charge of this legislation is that when he passed the Crown Minerals Amendment Act, just 6 weeks later we were back in the House considering a raft of amendments because that Minister could not pass the legislation without stuffing it up and getting it all wrong. So, again, here we are, tidying up legislation that the Government got wrong the first time round. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fc75983de59456aa7ac706d989eb90d\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, what a waste of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f777c18e4a2a425fafd1c7bafaacde06\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: It is a waste of time. I think the public would be far more appreciative if the Government could just do its homework and get its legislation right the first time round. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe other thing, of course, that we are tidying up here is not one but two inquiries, or two reports, that the Regulations Review Committee had to carry out into the regulations that were made by the Governor-General as a result of that initial piece of legislation. Of course, some of those regulations ended up being disallowed and then some of them were reinstated by the Minister. The Regulations Review Committee carried out another inquiry and produced another report, and finally the Government has got round to doing what the Regulations Review Committee suggested, which was to put these changes into legislation. My colleague the Hon Maryan Street, who is the chair of the Regulations Review Committee, will go into that in more detail later on this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWhat does the bill do? Well, essentially it does four things. It provides for a new regulation-making power to exempt from road-user charges vehicles that are not required to be registered; it allows for a new annual charge in the place of road-user charges for some vehicles that are exempt from road-user charges; it creates new offence provisions in relation to exemptions granted under section 40 of the Road User Charges Act; and, it contains seven \u201Cminor technical amendments\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo what does each of those things do? Well, it is interesting, actually, because what they do is allow for some vehicles that are used for the most part by farmers to be exempt from road-user charges, and the reason, which is a fair reason, is that for the most part these vehicles are used off-road. They are used on the farm, but sometimes they need to go along the road, up the road to the next lot of paddocks, and back on to the farm again. The amount of time that they actually spend on the road is really quite insignificant, and there is very little need to be collecting road-user charges. But because the law was not drafted properly in the first place, in many instances those vehicles are actually in breach of the current law. It seems unusual for the National Party to put its farmers\u2014its supporting farmers\u2014at risk, but it is true that that is what it did. That is what it did, and now it has had to come back and tidy this up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo, in general, unregistered vehicles are not allowed to be used on the road, but this, of course, does not apply to vehicles that are exempt from registration or are not required to be registered under the Land Transport (Motor Vehicle Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2011\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254830bfe5da645b4854c353b42f9c387\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What jobs are up for discussion? I betcha Mallard\u2019s going, after today\u2019s performance\u2014what a grump.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c751b1385d44929a490eacb29bb83b\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Tau Henare\u2014or to unregistered vehicles operated under trade plates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EUnder the Road User Charges Act, unregistered road-user charges vehicles are subject to road-user charges unless they belong to a class of vehicle that is defined as being exempt under the Road User Charges Act. It is not possible to issue road-user charge distance licences for unregistered road-user charge vehicles because distance licences are issued against a vehicle\u2019s registration number. Operators of unregistered road-user charge vehicles cannot be compliant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022decb364530674fd6b9ef0c9bd0446f4b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What are you going to do for the M\u0101oris?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264523650661a423a966d4b8ffc9a40a1\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014cannot be compliant, Tau Henare\u2014with the Road User Charges Act when travelling on roads. So the Government has basically made criminals out of every farmer in the country, and now it has had to come back and tidy it up. There is a new annual charge involved here. For those vehicles that do spend a bit more time on the road, there is a very sensible provision to allow for an annual fee, which they can pay in lieu of the road-user charges that they would ordinarily pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt seems interesting to me that this legislation is being passed to ensure that a small group of people do not have to pay their road-user charges and they do not have to pay into the National Land Transport Fund, when the last piece of legislation the Government passed that related to the National Land Transport Fund actually put up road-user charges, through fuel excise tax, for every single New Zealander. This is a Government that says it wants to cut taxes\u2014and sure, it cuts taxes for a few. It cut income tax for the top 10 percent, and it is cutting road-user charges for a handful of farmers, but it puts taxes up for everybody else\u2014everybody else who drives their car, drives their kids to school, drives to work. All those people have to pay more\u2014have to pay more\u2014under this Government, when the farmers get to pay less. That is what this Government means when it says it is cutting taxes. It is cutting taxes for its mates and it is putting taxes up for everybody else. That is what National means when it says it is going to cut taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThis is a fairly technical amendment. It is designed to do one thing, really, and one thing only: tidy up the mistakes that National made the first time round. So we on the Labour side of the House are quite happy to help the Government tidy up its mistakes. We are quite happy to help the Government tidy up its mistakes. We will see this bill go to the select committee. I look forward to the raft of submissions that will come in on this bill\u2014probably slightly fewer than we have had on the Employment Relations Act amendments that we are considering right now. But in the interests of helping this Government tidy up its mistakes, Labour will support this bill going to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9f3f36998fb4300875cfbce9d2764d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9f3f36998fb4300875cfbce9d2764d8\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to speak on the first reading of the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. Is it not a pleasure to see a new member like Iain Lees-Galloway try to do a 10-minute speech? He tried to do 10 minutes, could not stick to the bill, and had to go on about other things. He could not stick to the bill. He is the silent partner of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. He sits there meekly day after day, followed by unionists either side of him, not allowed to say a word. He sits on that committee and does not say a word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f93c09d491e645d682017f7d20956f6e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: They wouldn\u2019t let the King\u2019s boy speak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ed3396fcff49f89fbb161332ca8e41\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, exactly\u2014silver spoon. But he is going in. He is best mates with another silver spoon, Mr Herne Bay 1984. Those two together are going to be the new team for the Labour Party\u2014Herne Bay and Palmerston North. I will look forward to seeing that happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e885c87e9be447f295eb5b903715165d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e34cad7800041aaa8d7b0a6aa8b9b89\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, a point of order is heard in silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb60bb38343b4dddaf2045e579eaf2f0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Members are to be referred to by their names or by their electorates, and that member knows that he is breaching that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c127e7e58514d94b805ed0a504c3238\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have had to rule on this earlier today. There is Speakers\u2019 ruling 28/1: members will refer to members by their names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ff965f9af2465faa5838bea432107d\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. Well, Iain Lees-Galloway is going to be the spokesperson, we can see, from the Labour Party on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022390627dabe784ba985ed90d9cabf4852\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Iain Lees-Galloway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022394ce6ca4f5e4b788d1916489b00afc9\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon? What did you say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d21b7d053ab04d05aa799adfc7a8beb8\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Iain Lees-Galloway. He went to King\u2019s. He\u2019s got two names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229a9758f2e79414090c96c26b7f4e9e8\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that is right. That is right. He probably needs three names if he is going with David Cunliffe. Then you have got \u201CTricky Trevor\u201D there. He is going to be there as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill is important. It is good to finish this bill off. If the members there want to have a fight, let them go for it outside. This bill is in the best interests of the New Zealand transport sector. It is important when you see a Government that is actually doing something in transport and building things like the Waikato Expressway. Louise Upston and I are very proud of the Government\u2019s achievements in the Waikato, unlike what Labour did for our region. This is actually part of that process where we are continuing to work on these rules to make sure we get the best things and the best approach for the New Zealand transport sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill will pass, and it is good to see the Labour Party supporting it. We look forward to the New Zealand First Party supporting it as well. There are no conspiracies involved, so the New Zealand First Party has got no reason to vote against it. The Green Party members should also be voting for it, but I am sure that they will bring in their magical electric trains so that they cannot vote for it in the end. Thank you. I look forward to this bill passing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00226d7760beb7be4cdc856ad6b529f725ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d7760beb7be4cdc856ad6b529f725ea\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E How long was that speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f6902124e548eaac68817135ba7da6\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Two minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022955f7977a1294bbc8e4f9eead0a83b49\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Two minutes? OK, 2 minutes from the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022413a836f1a674a4d8a996ad41f4934bd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s quite a long one for Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f9558e3466a4c8daa2a6756e88eacce\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite a long one, really. I think he needs to be really careful about showing his commitment to what he said was a very important bill in this House, the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. The truth about this bill is that it would not be in the House if the National Government had not stuffed it up in the first place. That is the truth about the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. That is the truth, and I agree with my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway who said that it is entirely appropriate that the Minister Simon Bridges was introducing this first reading on behalf of Gerry Brownlee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a78ea11af75457c94f8e6399b210968\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t say that, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c63b7014b34b8a839316f22db41949\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I know he did not say that, and that is a problem too, actually. That is a problem. He introduced it\u2014this is not a man known for attention to detail. This is not a man known for attention to detail. This is a Minister who has already had to come back to the House on several bills and make corrections and drive through changes at the last possible minute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhat happened with this bill was that this was a very, very controversial bill at the time that it went through the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65e8f85615a41b78c4bd2c08ee0ac35\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Not even.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538e55fdb79c427798fc3c63542a0192\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Tau Henare was not there. It was a controversial bill, and, in fact, there were a number of transport providers who were very, very upset about what the Government was doing. There was even a little bit of a campaign online, as I recall. What happened with the bill was that the Government was given advice by its friends in the trucking industry and it ignored it. It ignored it. It was given advice by its friends in the agriculture industry and it ignored that advice as well. So what happened? The bill got referred to the Regulations Review Committee, and my colleague Maryan Street will talk with great erudition about exactly what happened at the Regulations Review Committee. But the truth is that it would never have been necessary for this bill to go to the Regulations Review Committee and come back as yet another bill on road-user charges if the Government, if the Minister, if the Associate Minister, and if the National Party members had done their jobs properly in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI will talk just briefly about what the purpose of the bill is. It proposes to amend the Road User Charges Act, and we have, as I said, quite recently in this House, actually, passed a bill about road-user charges. I want to divert just for a minute to remind the House that, actually, going back, Labour was very supportive of measures to reduce road-user charges evasion. Going right back to 2008, remember, there was a huge mass protest from the truckies, and the then Minister of Transport, Annette King, was involved in that, and then the transport industry after we actually introduced road-user charges or increases. It was used as a political tool by the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd1bfbba842491e9101129157aea60e\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What year was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fef8cd7ced347628e5a9083007cc21c\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: That was 2008, but we do not forget that. We do not forget that. And I was very pleased when the Road User Charges Bill came into Parliament to see that, actually, the truckies were just as annoyed with the National Government. In fact, there were online petitions and other things. They were just as annoyed with the National Government, apart from its friends in the Road Transport Forum, which does not represent its members and does not listen to what they are saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EBut we on this side of the House were the instigators. We were the people who supported road-user charges and we also supported this bill, the original Road User Charges Amendment Bill brought forward by this National Government. We supported that, too, even though we had concerns and we were supporting the people who were concerned about it at the time. As I said, what happened was that the Government did not listen. So here we are in urgency, wasting our time on doing a bill that will actually exempt fast tractors. That is what this bill is going to do. It is going to exempt fast tractors\u2014that is, tractors operated over 40 kilometres per hour on the road\u2014from road-user charges and subject them to an annual charge. I just find that really interesting that the select committee and the Ministers could not get the definition of a fast tractor right at the time. Actually, a fast tractor, according to the regulatory impact statement glossary, is \u201Ca tractor that is operated over 40 kilometres per hour on road (as opposed to being capable of speeds in excess of 40 kilometres per hour).\u201D That is what a fast tractor is. And \u201CFor the purposes of the RUC system, a tractor is defined as being a motor vehicle designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, for traction and powering implements.\u201D So that is the substance of this bill. That is what this bill is about. This bill is about fast tractors as opposed to slow tractors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223246e7ec980f4e4e998d103cf19d8f3f\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re a menace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9d04b258e2a41fdb7f8a3881f3622cb\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: They are a menace? You think they are a menace? Fast tractors are a menace? But, anyway, that is the purpose of the bill, and this bill will amend the Act to provide for fast tractors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am really looking forward to the select committee process, and maybe we will have a demonstration at the select committee of a fast tractor compared with a slow one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229da798fc64574758bc0c6197e99ab424\u0022\u003EDr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: The steps of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa62f4f13074f35bb6485d34f1988e5\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, a tractor coming up the steps of Parliament\u2014that is right. We could have that as well. In fact, it might be a tractor coming up the steps of Parliament opposing this bill, actually opposing the National Government. That would be very interesting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EApparently, there are seven minor technical amendments to the Road User Charges Act that will improve operation of the road-user charges system. What I do know about this bill and the original bill is that there is still a residue of resentment about this from trucking operators. They still do not believe that the original Road User Charges Amendment Bill, which this Government brought in, was fair. They are still not convinced by it, and I think it is a demonstration of the fact that the Government did not do its job properly in the first place. It is a demonstration by having to have this bill back in Parliament. According to the explanatory note, \u201CMost aspects of the new system are working well, but there is a need to correct some minor anomalies with the RUC Act that affect a small number of vehicles and their owners.\u201D Why could we not do the job in the select committee of correcting some minor anomalies with the Road User Charges Act that affect a small number of vehicles and their owners? Why could that work not be done? As I say, it is due to a lack of attention to detail from this Government and from the new Minister Simon Bridges, who has picked up from and is following his elders, his more senior Ministers. He is following their tradition of not doing the job properly, of not paying attention to detail, of not listening to people, of just being lazy, and of sitting in select committees and taking the advice of people, instead of listening to the people on the ground, just as he is doing with the Employment Relations Amendment Bill, actually\u2014just as he is doing with that, just as David Bennett is doing, too, and just as the other members on the select committee are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EActually, we do not need this work in the select committee. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee is very, very busy. It has 15,000 submissions to take note of on the Employment Relations Amendment Bill. It also has the Health and Safety (Pike River Implementation) Bill. It has major health and safety legislation in front of it. We do not need this. This did not need to happen\u2014this did not need to happen. If only the Ministers and the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee had done their jobs properly, we would not be rushing through in urgency the first reading of the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill, which is going to be dealing with fast tractors. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002210f29819bfd54c17b52d10056d1f3e55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210f29819bfd54c17b52d10056d1f3e55\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of the Green Party on the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. The Green Party sees no reason to oppose the bill at this time. It is pretty minor. I am looking at the regulatory impact statement now. One of the two key proposals in this bill, which has already been explained by other members in the House tonight, is to exempt fast tractors from road-user charges and subject them to an annual charge instead. The other major proposal in this bill is to exempt all unregistered vehicles from road-user charges\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcdb0b9e9f2643f09195a7df9d446acb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! I am sorry. I would actually like to hear what the member is saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022773c197b5d24460e876598b52fb5802a\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. As I was saying, the other major proposal in this bill is to exempt all unregistered vehicles from road-user charges and instead apply an annual charge. There are six other proposals, which are supposedly going to improve the functioning of the road-user charges system. They are minor in nature and impact, and there is very limited information available, so it was difficult for the officials to provide a very thorough analysis in the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think it is worth saying that although the Green Party has no reason to oppose this bill, it is a bit of a missed opportunity to get much better outcomes from the entire road-user charges system. It is my understanding that there are highly, highly efficient light diesel vehicles, which are currently probably paying far more than their fair share with the changes that were introduced by this Government to the road-user charges system, and really, the entire vehicle licensing, registration, road-user charges, and petrol tax systems\u2014all of these systems that we have for raising revenue\u2014are also an opportunity to use economic instruments to clean up our fleet and to get more efficient and safer vehicles on the road. That opportunity has been missed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo here we are after 11 p.m. on a Wednesday night, debating this minor change, which is primarily going to benefit a few farmers. That is fine\u2014I mean, they do not use the road so much with their fast tractors. I suppose that it is entirely fair, but it does say something about the priorities of this Government that it is not taking the opportunity with the transport portfolio to reduce the transport costs and the burden on households and businesses in New Zealand, which is probably a major drag on our economic development at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt has been about 6 or 7 years since we have seen any increase in vehicle kilometres travelled on our roads, so households and businesses are not travelling as much\u2014well, they are not travelling more, even though there are more people; the population has increased\u2014and that is because oil prices have been high. That has impacted on economic development. So here is an opportunity to reduce the burden of transport costs, and that is going to get more economically efficient outcomes for the country. Yet the National Government is apparently completely unaware of the fact that New Zealanders are having to spend three or four times more than the Government just to use the infrastructure that is being provided by their tax money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think it is important to explain this. I am not sure that everyone in the House is aware of this. Of course, road-user charges contribute to the National Land Transport Fund, as do petrol taxes. Petrol taxes, by the way, have increased significantly in the past 5 years. Their contribution to the National Land Transport Fund has increased 92 percent since 2007-08. The light road-user charges\u2019 contribution to the National Land Transport Fund has increased 37 percent, so by much less. The heavy road-user charges\u2019 contribution to the National Land Transport Fund increased by only 20 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the changes that the National Government introduced to the road-user charges system did not result in a commensurate increase in the amount that truck drivers and heavy vehicle commercial users were paying for the roads, compared with your average Kiwi family. Kiwi families are having to pay much more, and yet the infrastructure being provided by the Government\u201475 percent of the budget for new infrastructure\u2014is going on just a few State highways that primarily benefit freight and actually accommodate only about 4 percent of daily vehicle trips. Surely that is not a logical allocation of resources, and it is certainly not the best way to get better economic outcomes from our transport investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAs I was saying before, the National Land Transport Fund\u2014which is now contributed to much more by petrol taxes paid by average Kiwi households and partially funded by road-user charges paid by heavy vehicles and light diesel vehicles\u2014is about $3 billion a year. About $3 billion a year is spent by central government on transport infrastructure. It is not true that roads are entirely paid for by road users, because there is another $1 billion that is spent on transport infrastructure that comes from your rates. Local government contributes about $1 billion to transport infrastructure. All of that comes from property owners, ratepayers, and even renters, because renters pay rates through their rent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo we have got $1 billion, a quarter of the transport infrastructure cost, paid for by rates, not by road users. We have got another $3 billion that is paid for by road users in some way, but not in a direct way\u2014not in the way that you pay a toll to use a road the vast majority of the time. Even when one does pay to use a toll road, like, for example, at the Northern Gateway, the amount raised by that toll does not even cover the cost of collection, or it barely covers the cost of collection. So it does not contribute to the building of the infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAnyway, the Government is taking $4 billion off ratepayers and taxpayers and spending it on transport infrastructure, the vast majority of which is roads, and a huge proportion of which are a few new State highways that have terrible business cases and that carry only 4 percent of daily vehicle trips, yet Kiwi households and businesses have to spend four times more than this just to use that infrastructure. Last year we spent $8 billion importing oil. We are not importing any more than we did 5 years ago, but we are spending twice as much on it. We spent $8 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fad23ff85474b54ae3f9f7e5494ed48\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: We need to drill more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986ca13a1e8c4d3e9e8004584b55e049\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I would have thought that the Minister of Energy and Resources would know that we do not use the oil produced offshore in New Zealand in our cars and trucks. We do not even have the capacity to refine it. Even if we did have a big find off the shore of New Zealand, the Minister should know that that would not affect the amount that New Zealanders pay at the pump because we pay the international price of oil. So we are going to be paying the same amount for oil, whether or not it is produced here and whether or not it is spilt and destroys our shores. It is not going to benefit Kiwi households. But, of course, the Minister would not know something like that. Why would he know that? The real question\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b0b50f8c4343eda5f3a8d50443d4c3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order, please. [Interruption] Order! I cannot hear, and if I cannot hear, it is not fair on the speaker. I ask that you give the speaker a fair go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37ccb3d7ebb4e3f8624b764cd1d2a80\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand households and businesses are spending\u2014well, last year they spent $3 billion on vehicles. Three plus eight, for those who cannot do math on the National Government\u2019s side of the House, is $11 billion. That is slightly more than our current account deficit. Our transport system is highly inefficient because it forces us to spend $11 billion, at least, just to use the infrastructure being built with our tax dollars. That is the major oversight that, unfortunately, the National Government has not grasped\u2014that it has the opportunity to invest in more choice. That does mean better buses and trains, which I know New Zealanders want, and safer walking and cycling, which I know New Zealanders want. That will not only save them money and provide cleaner, healthier communities but also actually free up the roads for those people who still need to drive. That is smart green transport, and unfortunately this Government has not seen the light. It appears it never will. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u00229c1564f331c044bbb700b3790dc49999\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c1564f331c044bbb700b3790dc49999\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E That was a valiant contribution from Julie Anne Genter. I suggest that the old \u201Ctake down the leader\u201D approach might be happening in the Green Party, because that speech was so technical and confusing, it almost sounded like Russel Norman. I think she might actually be making a play for Russel Norman\u2019s space there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EIt is ironic that we are talking about being off the beaten track and off the trail, as are many of the vehicles that the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill relates to, because many of the Opposition members, of course, are off that beaten track and up the garden path, seeking a nomination from, and seeking the support of, their fellow party members and the like. Well, I would suggest that where they are actually heading is the big old road to nowhere\u2014the big old road to nowhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe big disappointment for me and for my colleagues on this side of the House is that any good Government actually relies on having a good Opposition. Is that not true? A good Government relies on having a good Opposition. The New Zealand public relies on having a good Opposition to hold the Government to account, not to hold the snapper in the House for a bit of show-and-tell. That did not go down so well, did it? That gutted that particular member\u2019s leadership opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EHowever, there is a vacuum, and it is quickly going to be filled by one of the three, or possibly Russel Norman, because I think, actually, that when we are talking about the Leader of the Opposition, are we not talking about Russel Norman? I think we are. I think he has done an outstanding job. Now he has got Julie Anne Genter on his tail\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022131fed636de84fefb08be2ea634d9425\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: No one\u2019s as good as Cunliffe, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a4d7c5a69c4afbbb9e367902bb31bf\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, absolutely, and he makes a stunning portrait, does Mr Cunliffe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThis bill, which I am sure will enjoy support from across the House, is really about\u2014Darien Fenton laughs about tractors that can do over 40 kilometres an hour. The member would not do that if she was standing in front of a John Deere coming down the road at 41 kilometres an hour. That is pretty much the reaction I am sure she would get if she talked to farmers about the importance of this sort of thing. Although it is a technical bill and although it is quite narrow, it actually has relevance to a lot of people who are out there actually earning this country\u2019s way in the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EAlthough the Opposition can trifle about the nature of this bill and the anomalies that need to be rectified, when the Road User Charges Act 2012, the amendment to the road-user charges, was done, it was quite clear that it was a very complex piece of legislation that went back to 1978. So remedying here the anomalies that, although quite narrow, are quite significant is actually very pragmatic. Although the union stalwarts over there will laugh and gibe about it, the farmers around this country know just how important it is. Yet again they can rely on National actually doing for them what they were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3c45297234356aad9651dfc2d9b04\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: He belonged to the best union of all, the Police Association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224e1644f654b40f1b904e8e191e48f01\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, what was that, Annette King?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d832c17a4634bf2835ac77802a4a05b\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: You were a union member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1995ce96f734d359a868ab2d648922f\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: I still am. I still am a member of the Police Association. What is wrong with that? I actually know how to drive a tractor at more than 40 kilometres an hour as well. How about that? I can use a front-end loader and the digger bucket\u2014not too bad, not too bad. But that is what you have on this side of the House\u2014you have people who are practical and who are about doing. On that side of the House you have people who are interested in doing what is in the best interests of themselves, and that is exactly what we are seeing as the numbers are starting to line up over there. It is a very interesting and fascinating contest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002205cfdcb93793497c9c415b3fba1a5de4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205cfdcb93793497c9c415b3fba1a5de4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I call\u2014[Interruption] Order! The member has not even spoken yet. I am calling Denis O\u2019Rourke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c89da65f1a85428ebc69e9c08fd5ca2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c89da65f1a85428ebc69e9c08fd5ca2f\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E We are told that there is a need to correct some minor anomalies\u2014minor anomalies\u2014with the new Road User Charges Act 2012 that affect a small number of vehicles and their owners by way of this omnibus bill, the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. Perhaps it should be called the \u201CLand Transport Charges Stuff-ups Correction Bill\u201D, because that is actually what it is. It is really necessary too because of all the stuff-ups that have been made by this Government on this matter over recent times, especially with the 2012 Act. I have been contacted by a number of people over this legislation\u2014irate people, people who are frustrated at Government ineptitude over these things, and people who have had to pay much more than they should have\u2014and they will, of course, now face huge fuel tax increases as well from this grasping Government. So the Government cannot be proud of this bill. This bill is nothing more than a stuff-ups correction bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EHaving said that, New Zealand First has no objection to the changes to be made by the bill, most of which are of only a technical nature. Firstly, there is to be a new regulation-making power to exempt vehicles that are not required to be registered from road-user charges. Under the Act, unregistered vehicles are subject to road-user charges unless they belong to a class of vehicle that is defined as being exempt. It is not possible to issue road-user charge distance licences for these unregistered vehicles because those licences are issued against a vehicle\u2019s registration number\u2014it is not rocket science. Operators of unregistered road-user charge vehicles cannot therefore be compliant with the Act when travelling on roads. The amount of road-user charge revenue that would be collected for these vehicles is low, so the bill would amend the Act to enable regulations to be made, exempting vehicles that are not required to be registered from road-user charges. That is sensible and acceptable, but I am amazed that the current law has been allowed to subsist until now in that state.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESecondly, there is to be a new annual charge in lieu of road-user charges for some vehicles that are exempt from road-user charges. These are vehicles that make very little use of roads and make a sufficient contribution to the costs they impose on the road network through the standard vehicle licence of about $43. However, some vehicles exempt from road-user charges are likely to impose higher costs on the road network than are covered by this. A good example is tractors\u2014presumably driven by National boy racers\u2014operated at over 40 kilometres an hour on the road. The proposal is that these would incur an additional annual charge by amending the principal Act to enable an annual charge in lieu of road-user charges to be collected through the registration system. That is of course just, fair, and appropriate, but it has been a long time coming. Again, why was it not done years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThirdly, there will be new offences to support enforcement of conditions on exemptions under section 40 of the Act. Owners of light vehicles that are operated almost exclusively off road can apply for an exemption from road-user charges under section 40, but these are subject to conditions prescribed by regulations. For example, an exempt light vehicle can be operated no further than 10 kilometres from the nearest boundary of the property where the vehicle is normally kept. Clearly, there has been a glaring stuff-up here in that there are no offence provisions for breach of these incredibly important conditions. The bill will add suitable offence provisions commensurate with penalties for similar offences under the Act. It is obviously necessary. It is another stuff-up. It has to be corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe remaining amendments are only minor in nature and are also unobjectionable, so New Zealand First will vote for the bill to go to the appropriate select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfb8ba5a6fb740fcad7ffc4ea49b6400\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfb8ba5a6fb740fcad7ffc4ea49b6400\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E When New Zealand First stood up, we thought \u201CWhat\u2019s this going to be?\u201D. But, no, it was Denis\u2014Denis the dyspeptic, the dismayed, the disconsolate, the disgraceful, the derogatory, the destructive. But, worst of all, it was Denis the dismal. I live for the day when New Zealand First says \u201CSo we will vote for it, and we like it.\u201D But, no, it did not say it this time. He did say\u2014it squeezed out\u2014and his last words were \u201CSo we will vote for this.\u201D Denis, congratulations, and you are looking happy. Did it make you feel good?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b39c8835f340fe856b64da0af5f5fd\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: Well, even we want to help you to correct stuff-ups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e32b57fc8e064cecb1e1c3ccc9c80e95\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go! I had prepared my speech with this final line: \u201CThis is a constructive, non-controversial bill whose changes affect only a small number of vehicles and owners, but which will be received positively by these people, and by all parties in the House.\u201D I have never heard such a controversial delivery on such a simple little bill as this, the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI do not know how many people have driven tractors. I have driven a tractor. Paul has driven a tractor. David has driven a tractor. Would members on the other side like to indicate whether they have driven tractors? Lots of people have driven tractors. Oh, there you are. We are all one on this bill\u2014we are all one. And the Assistant Speaker has driven a tractor. Without engaging the Speaker in the debate, I suppose one could speculate on what sort of tractor it was. I would suggest a Lanz. A Lanz tractor would be the one. [Interruption] No, not a Lanz. Ferguson 28?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022797db7fa6df3463eac68bf2bd8bf770b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: John Deere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cffd70f415e4e10b6b932cdb0622fe3\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: John Deere? Oh, John Deere. I am old enough to remember when they were introduced to this country\u2014the green tractors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e538c27b712242ddbbc8b617cde0b603\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Are you that old?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eac5afc7cc8466cb77d8e55eaeecc9c\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes. We had a lot of fun on tractors in those days, but, my goodness me, we used to take a little bit of risk\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bebcf7e2e8ea4f8c94c4062c4127a793\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: At 40 kilometres an hour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe43bd0f14748ba9a8c0a263ecc570b\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014at 40 kilometres an hour. But I am glad now that we have much safer procedures for tractors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EHave they not done a lot for the country? I think it was Mike Sabin who said that it is the people on tractors who earn this country\u2019s living. I think it is a good opportunity just to take note of the fact that we have the Minister for Primary Industries with us. Minister, we believe in tractors. We believe in the people who drive them. We believe in the work they do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis bill will bring about a correction to\u2014[Interruption]. As I said, I do not know what it is about tractors, but it has certainly livened up the Opposition members. It has certainly livened them up. They are having a bit of a race over there towards the leadership, and it is a tractor race, because it is not exactly moving that fast, is it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThese minor improvements that this bill introduces are positive steps, and they play a part in this Government\u2019s efforts to simplify and modernise New Zealand\u2019s transport operation, and to make it effective, efficient, and fair for all users. And this is the standpoint. This is the procedure that you see. For those members who have come along to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee just to see how a meeting should be chaired\u2014just to see how a meeting is properly chaired by my colleague David Bennett\u2014it is an unforgettable experience. David Bennett and I have been sitting together in Parliament for 7 years now, and it has not made any difference to either of us. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c7cfc5146f4b6b96da3952b3bb118c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c7cfc5146f4b6b96da3952b3bb118c\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak to the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022238b417ba5b145c686a6f9eb0560e6d8\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd31d59b5884c8d8470d95f043b0bbb\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: It does, and I am probably the only member in the House who is absolutely delighted that this piece of legislation has finally come before the House under urgency. Let me explain, because it is not immediately obvious why anybody would be so pleased that we would be debating tractors at quarter to midnight on a Wednesday. But I am personally delighted that this piece of legislation has finally seen the light of day. I happen to chair the Regulations Review Committee, and people will know by the attached information that is available on this piece of legislation that this has now been the subject of two reports from the Regulations Review Committee. Why should it cause such fuss? Well, let me try to encapsulate that as briefly as I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ELast year the Ministry of Transport brought in a regulation\u2014regulation 8\u2014to continue the existing exemption for farmers who operate light road-user charge vehicles for agricultural operations, so light vehicles such as tractors with limited on-road use. This is the bit that is really interesting. The ministry decided to introduce this regulation \u201Cpending outstanding policy decisions on how best to manage\u201D these exemptions. In other words, the Government had not done it in the legislation. In the road-user charge legislation, it had not done it. The ministry officials read the minds of Cabinet and said \u201CWe\u2019re going to put in a regulation that says we\u2019ll just roll this exemption over, because it\u2019s all going to come to an end on 30 June 2013 anyway.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI am sorry; officials do not have that power. They do not have that power. A regulation was made that was never brought to the Regulations Review Committee, except afterwards. This regulation was made in anticipation of the policy position the Government was going to take. I am sorry; that is not how it works. The Government intends a policy position, it states that position, then it enacts it in legislation if it is a competent Government. But this Government is not, so it left this bit out. It meant that these guys with these mainly off-road vehicles carried on paying a swathe of money\u2014a swathe of money\u2014in road-user charge contributions, and the regulation was completely out of order. So my predecessor Charles Chauvel moved that it be disallowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAt 1 August 2012, when the Road User Charges Act came into force, decisions on whether and how to implement an exemption for light road-user charge vehicles had not been made. The decision had not been made, so the officials stepped into the gap and tried to fill it in. I am sorry, but that is not the way it goes. So they just thought that they would roll over this existing exemption, and it has used transitional regulations rather than saying \u201CMinister, you need to go back.\u201D I understand that Minister Simon Bridges has introduced this tonight, but it is in the name of Gerry Brownlee. Perhaps between them they could get half an idea right, but at the moment all this is doing is correcting something that should have been done by 1 August 2012\u20141 August 2012. Here we are, a year and several weeks late\u2014a year and several weeks late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESo what did they do? The officials put in a regulation. Charles Chauvel got up in the House with the agreement of the Regulations Review Committee, three of whose members are National members. It is unconstitutionally, in my view, stacked, because it has always been a bipartisan committee before now, but it now has three National members and two Labour members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAnyway, the three National members whose names are signed to this report agreed that it should be disallowed. So Charles Chauvel went ahead and moved the disallowance motion. Then the Minister did not allocate House time to debate the disallowance motion. Therefore, the regulation was disallowed. In other words, it was overturned. It ceased to exist. It went up in a puff of smoke. The reason, however, that the Minister Gerry Brownlee gave, in front of the Regulations Review Committee, doing the second report on this regulation, was that he did not want to allocate House time to debating Mr Chauvel\u2019s motion because he believed that given the infrequency of using the disallowance procedure, it would not be a good precedent for the Government to use its majority to vote down a disallowance procedure. I am sorry; that is what it is for. If the Government does not want its regulations disallowed, it should make some time, get up in the House, and say: \u201CThis shouldn\u2019t be disallowed because we were the plonkers who put the inadequate legislation in to start with, and we are too embarrassed to correct the legislation, so we\u2019re just going to let this go on.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhat happened after the disallowance of the regulation? The Minister reinstated it. It was not any better the second time\u2014it was not any better. So we have a complete litany of ineptitude\u2014a complete litany of ineptitude. The Minister introduced it a second time, with no improvement. He should have amended the legislation, for goodness\u2019 sake, but did not. So I moved another disallowance motion, because it was not any better than the first time\u2014it was not any better than the first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ECan I just say that I withdrew my disallowance motion. On 11 June this year I withdrew my disallowance motion, on the understanding that this legislation was going to be brought forward to correct the matter in time for 1 August\u20141 August of this year. Here we are, in parliamentary time on 27 August, putting up for first reading, for goodness\u2019 sake\u2014for first reading\u2014a piece of legislation that should have been in place in order to correct the mistakes previously. It should have been in place in time for 1 August, for the start of the legislation, after the regulation would have been rescinded or overtaken. But no, they still could not get it right\u2014they still could not get it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is just an extraordinary list of ineptitude, of one mistake after another, which the Minister could have fixed last year. I do not know whether it is Simon Bridges\u2019 bailiwick now. I feel sorry for him. He does not understand this stuff to start with, so how can he possibly amend it? How can he possibly fix it? Being such a limited person in this respect, it is very difficult to imagine how he might ever fix it. Here we have the legislation wrong in the first place, a regulation put in place that was not allowable, the regulation was disallowed, the Government did not put aside time to debate it, it then reinstated a regulation that had been disallowed, and by the time that it expired on 30 June this year, the Government was still not ready with legislation to correct it. This would be farcical, if it were not serious for the poor old farmers. This would just be hilarious, if it were not for the poor old farmers. So try to get it right this time, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u00227e55ce9dba6e4833a20f7c0496301752\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e55ce9dba6e4833a20f7c0496301752\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E This will not be a speech of persiflage. There might be a little bit of bavardage. There will certainly be no chaponage. I was about to make a short panegyric to the road users of New Zealand\u2014the road users of New Zealand. I have, however, been given my instructions by the whip to make it a short speech, so I will commend the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002295589c3ea6f3483bb3b5360bce61aa5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295589c3ea6f3483bb3b5360bce61aa5d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u002221f009d63f5b47b4a764fd6791e4dab0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221f009d63f5b47b4a764fd6791e4dab0\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, it is. Well, what a shambles. What an absolute shambles. Quite frankly, with friends like those, who needs enemies? The poor old farmers have been paying through the nose because of that Government\u2019s ineptitude\u2014that Government\u2019s complete ineptitude. Not once, not twice, but three times it has got this wrong. It is just a simple thing. It is just a simple matter of deciding what road-user charge applies to tractors, for goodness\u2019 sake. It ain\u2019t rocket science, Mr Bridges. It ain\u2019t rocket science, Mr Bridges. It is quite simple, but everything that Minister touches seems to turn to\u2014well, I cannot say that word, even at 5 to 12 on a Wednesday night. But we all know what it is that everything turns to when Simon Bridges gets his hands on it, and here we go again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dee96a3033e9494da7e03225a6dfebde\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Turns to dust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f771f06a9341abb74ddaf60d9bf56c\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: It turns to dust. That is what I will say\u2014it turns to dust. This is in a long line of road-user charges, petrol taxes, and those types of things being completely misused by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt was not that long ago, in urgency\u2014and I object, by the way, to urgency being used to fix up that Minister\u2019s messes again. We seem to be in urgency quite a lot, fixing up Simon Bridges\u2019 messes, but here we go again. Not long ago we were in urgency, and we were passing a petrol tax through\u2014passing an increased petrol tax through. It is 3c every year for the next 3 years. That is the increase in petrol tax, and that was done under urgency as well. Why was that done? It was done so that that Government can pretend that it has got to a surplus in the Budget next year. Every time New Zealanders pull up at the service station and fill up the car or the tractor or whatever it might be that they are filling up, they need to remember, every single New Zealander needs to remember, that they are paying, through the petrol pump, through the nose, for that Government\u2019s promised surplus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There was a ruling by the Speaker at question time yesterday that the next person to hold up a scorecard in this House would be ejected from the House, and I request that you uphold that ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a53e88bf89f4318898b6262636f85e7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not going to do that. I did not see it, because I was focusing my attention on the speaker at the time, so I did not pick that up. [Interruption] The presiding officer at the time makes those deliberations, and I am certainly not asking someone to leave the House at 2 minutes to 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b3d12c64e3a4d5eb76b87caf19a6cad\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I can understand why you were fixated on the speaker, because what I was saying is so important to New Zealanders. They are paying through the nose, every time they fill up their cars, for that Government\u2019s promises and that Government\u2019s failure to achieve surplus through economic growth. I know that David Bennett thinks it is funny. He thinks it is so funny that this Government has sucked in the New Zealand public, and that the Government has the New Zealand public paying for its surplus because it has failed to get economic growth. The Government is not going to reach surplus next year because of economic growth, but it will reach surplus next year because it has hiked up petrol taxes for every New Zealander every time they pull into the service station.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247a92e9eed764d6eb204e096f21f4b5e\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got 1 minute. Come on, cheer up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b111c38fd6fe4ebaa24e3cf33830e10f\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Auchinvole. All of your constituents are paying for your failure to actually get economic growth going on the West Coast. All of David Bennett\u2019s constituents are paying for his Government\u2019s failure to lift economic growth in the Waikato. I could name every single member\u2019s area, because that, in fact, is the truth of the matter. New Zealanders do not want to be paying for this Government\u2019s failure, but they have, through the petrol pump. Farmers have paid for the failure of Simon Bridges to get this right not once, not twice, but three times, despite this side of the House giving the Government all the support that we could possibly give it, pointing this out to it time and time again, and my colleague Maryan Street doing absolutely the right thing. The Government is failing at its job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827bed30f83c7984fbb9b75e159b21f8f8a001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e7bbeeab251443795280f611c106147\u0022\u003ETuesday, 27 August 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221804038852dd4e9eaf6bdf34c2536f41\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 29 August 2013)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209215c1a9b6f4c248fdf94f554dea932\u0022\u003ELand Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002298a7aeabeecb4e29bd8157af9c468785\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002294993381a9774d859143830c93793d3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294993381a9774d859143830c93793d3a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be able to make a contribution on the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill. This is a bill that is an important bill for some people. It is a particularly important bill, I understand, for farmers, because what it does is regularise what is currently an irregular situation. I think most of us who have had an association with farming communities know that there are some inconsistencies in the way that farm vehicles are treated and in the approach that is taken. In fact, this is dealing mainly with road-user charges and the treatment of road-user charges. The inconsistency goes much further than that. I think that many of us are aware of the problems with trusts and way that they deal with vehicles, and one of the questions I would like to ask the Minister is whether that is being considered as part of this exercise. There is a number of what might be described as Queen Street tractors, which are driven by university students in Dunedin, and I want to know what the road-user charges treatment is of those particular vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhat I understand is that the objective of this bill is to get into a more regular situation. I think of any of us who have been involved in farming in any way. I spent 6 years of my life in Taumarunui, and, like most people, I used to do odd jobs on farms on occasions, especially after the period I was a teacher. We had relatively long holidays, and we did quite a lot of scrub-cutting, a bit of dagging, and quite a lot of haymaking. Probably the most important one in this particular case was haymaking, because when you are haymaking, especially in some of the side road areas, you tend to drive the tractors when you are going from one hay paddock to another, or when you are taking the hay back to the barn, as I was more likely to be doing. What you tend to do is drive on the road. There is a question then as to the legality of that, because the vehicles are not registered as road vehicles. The problem with our current legislation is that the road-user charge system drives off registration, and clearly there is a degree of avoidance going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am slightly in two minds about it. Sometimes trying to make the world perfect and to get everything regularised and in line is the last refuge of officials and fools. But what is not clear is whether there is such a major loophole and a major revenue loss in this area that it is something we should actually be worried about. I would be interested in the member for Rangit\u012Bkei\u2019s view on this as to whether it is worth regularising the situation, or whether the gap is so small that it is something that is not that important. This matter is, of course, a question of tractors and whether we\u2014[Interruption] Well, the key proposal is to exempt fast tractors\u2014that is, tractors\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6c7ee498ad144eb9026a16706afd574\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not going over this again surely?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cef0e14a6374aa5a126b86fa62485ec\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, sorry\u2014I am just relying on the regulatory impact statement\u2014you know, tractors that go over 40 kilometres per hour. Back in the days of the Massey Fergusons, the ones that I used to drive, they never went over 40\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6ebade0846496f9a4525edac21e357\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Fergie 28.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec791361be574220b31e2047e7c21971\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Assistant Speaker has more technical detail as to the quality of tractors than I do. But the old Massey Fergusons were very similar, though, to those that actually went to the South Pole, and probably at about the same pace. They certainly could not go over 40 kilometres per hour. I would just make the point that those tractors actually go at half the speed that Team New Zealand goes on the water. A fast tractor is quite a lot slower than a fast boat, and a wind-powered boat at that. Although calling the Team New Zealand yacht a boat is probably a bit marginal; I think it is closer to a hydroplane or a hydrofoil, or something similar to that. But what this does is it exempts fast tractors\u2014that is, tractors operating over 40 kilometres per hour on the road\u2014from road-user charges and subjects them to an annual charge in lieu of road-user charges to cover the costs that they impose on the road network. The real question I have is when you have a tractor with big fat tyres, as it tends to have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223432a94bad3e4765800766bc8dcabe59\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: On the back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224923b638b5de4a88a3e03f44e5aa7a46\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, they are big on the back; the driving wheels are big. The question that I have is, what is the damage to the road of that? I was involved, in fact, in the King Country in an incident with a bulldozer on one occasion. When that went across the road\u2014out of Taumarunui, so it was State Highway 3\u2014it made pretty tremendous damage. It was a bulldozer on a bit of soft tarseal, and it was very, very clear where the bulldozer had been and there were repairs, and there were costs involved in it. But what damage does a tractor with fat tyres do to a road? In fact, I cannot see any. So the question here is whether we are setting up an annual charge system in lieu of road-user charges that is actually unnecessary, because there is a question of whether in fact, as is the want of this Government, it will spend more on the cost of collection than the actual cost of the problem. I really hate to quote Ruth Richardson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222985220ac0d405596f05439f2a4edbd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caeedfca2c8d45c19bddb0e460ec80f5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I will. I will\u2014no, I will. What is the mischief here? What is the mischief caused by a fast tractor with big tyres going on a road? Colin King knows it does not rip up the road, because the tyres are fat, they are relatively low-pressured\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226307fe1a5cec4552ad72051a36a5057e\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it does. You know, down Te Atat\u016B Road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276ea2822613d4edbbf899a39891eacce\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, the city boy from west Auckland has probably never driven a tractor in his life. The city boy from west Auckland, who used to have potential, has probably never\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d7e15838f7c4307a75605bc68e01347\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: When? When?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243bf7583d8064550bcc2486a1b75a26b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: He did. He did. I can remember when he was the deputy leader to Winston. He was loyal to Winston\u2014he was loyal to Winston. Then he was loyal to Jenny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203ff4e5b874541d9a485b47f1436461e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Full names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347705ac536f407490ae7b753f971793\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry\u2014oh sorry. The honourable member from west Auckland somewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e943a467f8c6480a8ec54afdf5da9b18\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Te Atat\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b4b526a0d444e83985bf1d3873f8a0e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Te Atat\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d289de72cc4b81ab7ce02d83f808c6\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Because the local member doesn\u2019t do any work, somebody\u2019s got to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c5daff164747cc99d9652d4d5da8bb\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, no, no. That is a member who has lost a marginal seat three or four times\u2014three or four times. Never\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222fd0fc383474a02b5b84b50deec9eb3\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Who won the party vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65496bb63bd4530a819d4f6f03c7f33\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That member is nearly as bright as Paul Quinn and he keeps on losing the seat. But getting to the issue of the tractors, I agree with the other suggestion that all unregistered vehicles\u2014that is, vehicles exempt from registration or not required to be registered or operating under trade plates\u2014should, in fact, be exempt from road-user charges. There is some logic to that. The only question I have is that if vehicles have the dealer\u2019s plates on and are running up and down the country, should they be exempt from road-user charges? But I am sure that is something that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee will consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d90638dd90b1423bbcce6526f1c08af5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport and Road User Charges Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 120\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIndependent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000029\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002239d9cb1a7d8f412f97e8d83a2bf27c32\u0022\u003EAnimal Welfare Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d701d19640934d02a88d131b0c107441\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00225e32fd7b8b524be8bad50fc6ea3e73ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e32fd7b8b524be8bad50fc6ea3e73ae\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate that the Primary Production Committee considers the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are passionate about animal welfare. Animals, whether they are domestic, wild, or in agricultural production, are important to our way of life and we care deeply about the way animals are treated. Animals matter to us personally. Around 68 percent of New Zealand households have at least one pet. Not only is animal welfare important to us here in New Zealand but also it plays a vital part in our export brand around the world. Each year around 50 percent of our export earnings come from animals and animal products. We pride ourselves on our assurance to the world that we have high standards of animal welfare. Isolated cases of poor animal welfare can have a very negative impact on our reputation as a responsible agricultural producer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has a strong animal welfare system, but we cannot afford to be complacent. It has been 14 years since the Animal Welfare Act was passed, and a review of this Act is long overdue. Last year, under my predecessor the Rt Hon David Carter, the Act was reviewed. The review found that the principles and policy underpinning the Animal Welfare Act remain sound, but that the enforceability, clarity, and transparency of the Act needed to be improved. The Animal Welfare Amendment Bill has been introduced to do exactly that. The bill is about making a strong system even stronger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI would like to highlight some of the specific changes in the bill. Two key objectives of the bill are to provide for clear and enforceable standards of animal welfare and to broaden the range of enforcement tools. Clearly, minimum standards and codes of welfare are not directly enforceable. This bill will provide for new regulations that will complement codes of welfare by establishing specific and enforceable mandatory standards. Currently the enforcement tools in the Act are limited, especially for low to medium level offending. New enforcement tools will allow animal welfare inspectors to address all offending against animals at a level that is appropriate to the seriousness of the crime. To strengthen the Act\u2019s enforceability, the bill also provides for a new, tiered enforcement scheme made up of existing offences in the Act, lower-level offences and regulations, infringement notices, and compliance orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe Act as it stands has no specific requirements for exporting animals. This bill will enable the Government to establish new mandatory standards and regulations for exporting live animals. This will give exporters more certainty and will enable the Government to enforce requirements more easily to help protect New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a responsible exporter. The bill will not change the Government\u2019s policy of prohibiting live exports for slaughter, but it will enable the prohibition to be implemented under the Animal Welfare Act instead of the Customs and Excise Act. All of the regulations to be developed following the passing of the bill will be subject to further consultation at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis bill resolves the current uncertainty around the ill-treatment of wild animals. The bill will clarify that conduct towards an animal in the wild that goes beyond generally accepted hunting or killing practice is an offence. The new offence will target acts of wilful or reckless ill-treatment, but will not affect ordinary hunting, fishing, and pest management practices. The bill also makes it explicit that the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee may consider the practicality and economic impact when developing minimum standards and codes of welfare. These factors will not be able to override animal welfare considerations, but making them explicit in the Act will ensure that minimum standards are realistic and achievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI also know that some will focus in this debate on the testing of party pills on animals. This focus was inevitable following the recent passing of the Psychoactive Substances Act. The Animal Welfare Act places strict controls on the use of animals in research, testing, and teaching. Organisations using animals in research, testing, or teaching must follow an approved code of ethical conduct that sets out the policies and procedures that need to be followed by the organisation and its animal ethics committee. If the trial cannot demonstrate to the animal ethics committee that its benefits justify any harm to the animals involved, then the trial will not take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIn summary, this bill will strengthen an already well-performing animal welfare system and will ensure that New Zealanders can remain proud of the way we treat our animals. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00227c66960cd3ed4fc682812cc4724b77a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c66960cd3ed4fc682812cc4724b77a8\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E Indeed, it is a pleasure to stand and speak to the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. The Minister for Primary Industries has quite rightly made reference to a regime in this country that does uphold and certainly promote and demand the highest levels of animal welfare of any country in the world. Indeed, we rely on it because our economy is dependent upon our reputation. The Minister has not been so good in some areas in upholding that reputation, but I applaud the fact that today, he and the Government are bringing the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill to the House. As the Minister has said, there are a number of changes\u2014technical for the most part\u2014to the 1999 Animal Welfare Act that will improve the regime of animal welfare management, right through from farms through to saleyards and slaughter, and, indeed, it deals with the issue of export of animals from this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe do have a good reputation. I think the images of New Zealand, of sheep or cows in pastures with a spectacular backdrop anywhere around New Zealand, are the images that sell our country to the world. The assumption, of course, in that, that we have a clean environment, is one; the next one is, of course, that we have good welfare practices that look after the beautiful animals; and the third, of course, is that whatever we produce from that system is safe for consumption. It is a huge reputation, one hard-earned by farmers and processes and workers and everyone through 150 years of innovation, and is something that we must work hard to maintain and uphold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe dairy industry alone has seen a rapid growth in the number of dairy cows\u2014heifers and calves\u2014across this country, and with that there has been a greater level of public awareness of the way they are managed. It is rather timely, I guess, given the focus on the dairy industry and what is produced from it, that, as the public drive up and down our roads or go out into the country and see dairy animals, it is important that they understand that those animals are being well managed. It is a commercial operation. It might not meet the needs or the expectations of a pet owner, but it is a commercial operation, and the legislation that we pass must balance the economic needs of this country with, I think, the underlying assumption and demand from each and every New Zealander and, indeed, people across the world, in most Western countries, that we respect the right of animals to not be treated unfairly, tortured, or in any way, I guess, demeaned and treated without any respect at all. I am not one who thinks that animals deserve the same rights as humans\u2014not at all; I am a farmer\u2014but I also believe that the abuse of animals should not be tolerated in any way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226134dc8bd9749f180ee1d6f6ba796dd\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: You must be the only one, Damien. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f637f504ac124c9daae03a23a1f176bf\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: There have been\u2014it might have been on that member\u2019s farm; I would hope not, though\u2014a number of cases recently where farm workers have abused animals. I have to say, the industry needs to take a look at that. I know that those kinds of situations arise out of frustration, and those workers should not be there\u2014they may be for whatever personal reasons\u2014and the industry needs to take a good look at how it better offers pastoral care for workers on farms. That is just a note for the couple of dairy farmers on that side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill, as I say, creates regulations and creates a better regime for implementing standards that we are demanding. Labour in Government looked at the issue of sow crates and, of course, hens for egg production. We made progress in that area. We moved to phase out sow crates. We gave the industry time. The reality that the industry has half the pigs produced out of the sow crate environment, and half in, means that it is possible to do, but there is a cost involved, so we in Government gave a clear indication to the pork industry that it should phase those out. It was the same for egg production. There have been some changes, I think, to the size of crates for hens\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b24b902863465fb090ac00a1f059b5\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Cages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb79ad63b2fa4ccab729d2c4e734a922\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014cages, yes; my colleague corrects me\u2014that have moved in the right direction. \u201CFree range\u201D is wonderful marketing terminology. There are issues around animal welfare if all chooks were to be free range, believe me. So it is about balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe in Labour are happy to support the Government, but what we do need to get from the Government is an assurance that it will provide the resources to implement the new provisions of this bill. I go to the regulatory impact statement here, and although an enthusiastic supporter of the bill and of the improvements it will make, I have to say that the regulatory impact statement is rather alarming, because it says here: \u201CIn terms of costs to Government, all proposed changes to the Act would be implemented by the Ministry on a fiscally neutral basis.\u201D What that says is that it is not going to spend any more money on this. So although there will be an expectation of higher levels of animal welfare and of implementing and policing those standards, this National Government, true to form, is not going to put any more money in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02c8428407646f798b46d1bc6d9dcd2\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member give us a figure? How much should be spent on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef9a3f3949340a4bc7317b6b3af8a83\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, an example of what has happened is that the National Government has got this proposal to double export earnings from this country\u2014a laudable and worthy objective. It wants to rapidly increase exports from, particularly, our primary sectors. Right? But it cut the funding to the agencies that oversee, protect, and monitor that export sector. You cannot have it both ways. We are now currently dealing with a major problem of reputation for our dairy sector because the National Government cut funding for the Ministry for Primary Industry\u2019s responsibility while expecting that the growth in the industry, the growth in exports, was to continue\u2014in fact, to ramp it up even further. It does not collate that you can have both. In the end, you do not get something for nothing, and those so-called smart business people over there should understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42e6cabffab49ba91c9aeff28ecfe2e\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228354b6af189444408f31971e478e1fec\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have not been able to identify one, but I am sure there must be one. You do not get something for nothing, as most of my constituents understand. The problem is that when you have a regulatory impact statement saying, effectively, that the Government is not going to spend any more money in this area, then we have to ask the question of whether the increased standards, the better standards, the better regulations that we are going to pass through the bill will be implemented, because what is at risk here is our reputation. We have millions\u2014in fact, about 6 million\u2014dairy cows, I think, at the moment, and rapidly growing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957b569b47b84e18b71c43b5b9809113\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: 6.5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce16a70890d4460fa109e1c9469d0279\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and rapidly growing. One situation on the front page of a newspaper, the abuse of one of those cows or calves, is enough to start to undermine our reputation. So it is no good passing the best legislation here in the House and then not having the resources to ensure that, indeed, we carry that out and that every farmer and every individual carries that out across the board in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe have a good reputation. It has been hard won, and we must uphold that, just as we do in food safety. But the Government, again, because it has cut resources to core Government responsibilities, has allowed that reputation to be dragged through the mud for too long internationally. Hopefully, we can restore that. We do not want the same thing to happen here in animal welfare, and although there have been a few more inspectors appointed by the Government, the overall pressure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ba6da9fe814ac3ab7898911739fb27\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ab5d661f7d4a95a9240aa8e3c2ef9c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I acknowledge that\u2014on the whole of the Ministry for Primary Industries, which covers a raft of things, from biosecurity through to forest management and fishing, is that the budget has been cut. The pressure is on, and we need to know\u2014and we will be investigating in the Primary Production Committee\u2014that the Government is going to commit more resources to implement the higher standards that will effectively be put in place when this bill becomes law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022 data-id=\u00225478705f0b9b4b34a0b2d7b522a22219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225478705f0b9b4b34a0b2d7b522a22219\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise this morning to speak in support of the first reading of this Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. This bill is the result of a comprehensive review of our animal welfare laws, and I want to thank the Minister for Primary Industries, Nathan Guy, for his important piece of work. The Animal Welfare Act was passed in 1999, and from day one I knew that this day would arrive\u2014some 14 years later. At the time that the legislation we are amending was progressing through Parliament, I told the then National Minister for Food, Fibre, Biosecurity and Border Control that there were gaping holes in the legislation that needed to be fixed. They were not fixed then; they are being fixed now. The problem we have is that notwithstanding the select committee process that I was witness to 14 years ago, the then Minister ran roughshod over public sentiment and submissions to the select committee, and barrelled on on the advice of the officials. I told the Government of the day that that was wrong and the people told the Government of the day that it was wrong, and here we are trying to fix that wrong. So it is a golden opportunity for this Government and this Parliament to fix some of the wrongs that should have been righted all those years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EThe bill will go some way\u2014some way\u2014to strengthening our standards of animal welfare and protecting animals from ill-treatment. But it also represents a real missed opportunity to take our legal protections for animals a lot further and to be a world leader in the area of animal welfare. I am pleased, for instance, that there will be a new \u201Clow-level\u201D offence for people who hurt animals, so we are not focused just on the worst offending. We need to be focused on all offending, and this bill addresses just that. I am pleased the new regulations will specify mandatory and enforceable animal welfare standards. I am pleased that the wilful or reckless ill-treatment of wild animals will now be an offence that can be prosecuted. These were issues I raised with the Minister at the time all those years ago, so I am pleased that some of them are being addressed in this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EI am glad that the killing of an animal to test on it post-mortem and that the breeding of an animal with known or potentially compromised welfare will now need the approval of the National Animal Ethics Advisory Committee. I am not signed up to the proposition that an animal ethics approval committee is a sinecure for the problems we have around the treatment of animals in this country, and it will depend entirely on the quality of those individuals who are selected for that important piece of work around the implementation of this piece of legislation. But this bill\u2014as I said all those years ago in Parliament, from this seat\u2014could achieve a lot more and should achieve a lot more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003ELet us start with live exports of animals for slaughter. Currently, there are no mandatory standards for live animal exports, so it is promising that this bill introduces them. The Government\u2019s current approach to live exports for slaughter is that they are prohibited unless an exemption is granted. An exemption cannot be granted unless New Zealand\u2019s trade reputation can be adequately managed. Well, this is not about just a trade reputation; this is about taking into account the suffering of animals, and the suffering they go through when they are exported live from sovereign States to be slaughtered overseas. Humane Society International has said: \u201CEvery year, thousands of dead sheep are thrown overboard as ships depart\u201D\u2014for instance\u2014\u201CAustralian ports for the Middle East, either whole or minced, without care or consideration for the consequences of these actions,\u201D. Live animal exports need to be very closely monitored\u2014indeed, if they are necessary at all, and I not convinced. But let the Primary Production Committee hear evidence on that. Thankfully, there are currently no live exports from New Zealand, but I would like to encourage the select committee to look very carefully at why the provision for an exemption is even necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EMost disappointingly, this bill totally fails to ban the testing of psychoactive substances on animals. Beagle puppies specifically bred to be used for testing are not being protected by a bill that claims to enhance animal welfare. It is an outrage that an unnecessary chemical could be tested on animals and that in the process the animal will suffer unimaginable pain and a miserable death. New Zealanders made it very clear during the debate on the Psychoactive Substances Bill that they abhor the idea of animals being tortured and killed so that people can take recreational fun drugs. They marched on this Parliament. They signed petitions. They visited members of Parliament. They wrote to the Health Committee to voice their outrage, but their outrage fell on deaf ears. Sadly, the select committee refused to hear submissions about animal welfare, and it told us at the time that it was the wrong bill to address the issue of animal testing. Well, this bill is the right bill to address the issue of animal testing. This is the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, and what better bill, what better piece of prospective legislation, could be more useful for animal welfare than to ensure that psychoactive substances are never tested on animals? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EFun drugs should not be tested on animals\u2014full stop. That was the proposition I put to the National Government at the time of the Psychoactive Substances Bill going through this House, and to the select committee chairman and to anyone else who would listen. Well, this is the right bill, and I am glad that the right bill, the right vehicle, has arrived in Parliament\u2014not at the right time, but well overdue. But let us take that as an opportunity. I will be supporting Supplementary Order Paper 341, issued by Trevor Mallard, to amend this bill to make it clear that no animal should be used in research or testing for the purposes of gaining approval for a psychoactive substance. But I also call on those individuals and animal welfare groups to submit to the select committee. This is their opportunity. It is better than a march. It is better than writing letters. It is better than individual members of Parliament being lobbied. Go to the select committee and make your views known. I ask the select committee to listen to New Zealanders on how they feel about animal rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003EI want to leave you with a message from animal welfare advocate and Auckland-based lawyer Catriona MacLennan, who has argued that this bill is too timid. I argue that this bill is too timid. I argue that this is the golden time of opportunity in the interests of the animals that we are responsible for caring for while we share the Earth with them. This is what she said. She suggested that the bill should \u201Cstart with a very basic statement: that animals are in fact living beings rather than inanimate objects.\u201D Animals are living beings\u2014I think all New Zealanders can agree on that sentiment. Animals also feel pain, and we have a duty to protect them. So I say to the chairman of the select committee, as you go into your deliberations, remember that animals have a right to live alongside us on this Earth. They feel pain, and we need to protect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022db8c3f82f4694c209811f267d47ca30e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db8c3f82f4694c209811f267d47ca30e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I want to concur with everything the Hon John Banks has just said on this particular question. I think it is fair to say that it is relatively unusual, although becoming more common, for us to be in agreement on issues. I do want to reinforce that at the end of this debate on the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill I will be seeking leave to send my Supplementary Order Paper to the select committee\u2014not to debate now\u2014and have submissions on the question of animal testing for psychoactive substances. I will get back to that, but I want to thank the member for signalling this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party will be supporting this bill. Animal welfare is important for its own sake, it is important for our economy, and I think it is also important for how we think about ourselves. The way that people treat animals is one of the measures of civilisation in a society. This bill is moving in the right direction. I think there is going to be debate at the select committee as to whether it moves far enough, and I know that my colleague Phil Twyford has a series of issues that he is going to raise with the House as to the fact that we are not moving far enough and that there are some quite big loopholes in the bill as introduced. We will want to see those closed as we progress the bill through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E I do want to now return to the testing of party pills, and when I say \u201Cparty pills\u201D I think most of us know what psychoactive substances are. They are the synthetic cannabis and the quite broad range of drugs that are known as party pills. Unfortunately, when this House dealt with the issue a matter of a few weeks ago, we did not take the opportunity to ensure that there was no testing of these recreational drugs on animals. We left open the possibility and, I think it is fair to say, the expectation that in the end animals\u2014and a range of animals, but including dogs\u2014would be tested to see whether or not the drug dealers would be allowed to deal in particular drugs. I think all of us know that when this testing occurs, it results in the death\u2014and often the painful death\u2014of animals and that, from my perspective, is something that is just not acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWe have known since Tuesday that this issue was going to be coming up. Late on Tuesday I sent out an email to a number of people and, because they have been kind enough to copy me back into the email, I know that over 4,000 people have already sent a message via email\u20144,000 distinct individuals have sent a message by email\u2014to Nathan Guy, asking him to ensure that this matter is on the agenda for the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI was talking to my colleague before about snapper, and I think again I am going to agree with Michelle Boag that there are two pretty big issues that are hanging around, slightly under the radar but are probably coming up above the radar. One of them is the snapper issue and the other one is the very poor decision by the Government weeks ago to allow animal testing of psychoactive substances on dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESo in about 36 hours the Minister for Primary Industries has got about 4,000 emails. I have put a page up on Facebook, again, late on Tuesday night. That has already had 32,000 views. You know, I do not have a wide group of fans on Facebook, or \u201Clikes\u201D on Facebook, but this issue is one that is going viral, and it is going viral because New Zealanders care. New Zealanders do know right from wrong in this area. They do know\u2014it is innate in us\u2014that it is wrong to have cruelty to animals for no good purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am not going to go as far as some members. I think there are occasions in medical research where, for the greater good of the health of individual people around the world, it is OK at the moment to test on animals. It is a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acbc77b7bb0e445390716a26be566f83\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: If there\u2019s no alternative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227601b94c489843fbb51f6f3e05d1a7a8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: If there is no alternative. You know, if it is human lives or animal suffering, in the end I will accept some animal suffering for the curing of disease. I think that is fair. But where it is for no good at all, and the support of recreational drugs is, in my opinion, not a good thing, then it is absolutely unacceptable\u2014absolutely unacceptable\u2014to cause animals to suffer and die. What we are effectively promoting is State-sanctioned cruelty. That is what the Psychoactive Substances Act does. It promotes State-sanctioned cruelty to animals, and that is the sort of Parliament, Government, and State that I want no part of and that I want to work hard to reverse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am certain that people are going to come to the select committee on this issue. I think the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill is a broad bill and that is there. But what I want to make sure of is that when they come to that committee they have a proposition to address\u2014that they have a positive suggestion to which they can submit, as well as submitting on the bill. That is why I have drafted Supplementary Order Paper 341. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to make it clear: I am not a law draftsperson. You know, this is something that has not been drafted with the armoury of Crown Law around it. It is a relatively simple amendment. What it does is say: \u201CNotwithstanding anything in the Psychoactive Substances Act 2013, no animal shall be used in research or testing for the purpose of gaining approval for any psychoactive substance as defined in section 9 of the Psychoactive Substances Act 2013.\u201D It is simple, it is clear, and I would like to hear views on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to conclude with an email that I have got from a gentleman called Jonathan Woodford-Robinson, in response to the email that I sent out in the last couple of days. What he said was: \u201CAs the testing has no medical benefit, I liken it to cosmetics, with which animal testing has declined due to public attitudes toward it. I can\u2019t justify any testing on animals purely for the pleasure of humans\u2014i.e., recreational drug use. If the testing goes ahead, one may as well legislate for cock fighting, dog fighting, and any other form of animal suffering for the sake of human entertainment.\u201D He said: \u201CSo much for man\u2019s best friend. We\u2019re certainly not dog\u2019s best friend, are we?\u201D. I think that puts it pretty well. At the end of this debate I will seek leave for my Supplementary Order Paper to be referred with the bill to the committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022 data-id=\u00224faabbe9b3284879ac5073c2a34f23cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224faabbe9b3284879ac5073c2a34f23cb\u0022\u003EMOJO MATHERS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the first reading of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. I am proud to be speaking on behalf of the only party in the House with an animal welfare policy and a separate spokesperson on animal welfare. This is an indication of how seriously the Green Party takes the well-being of animals. We do have significant reservations about this bill, but we are going to vote for it to go to a select committee in order to give the public a chance to have their say and to provide input as to how it can be improved. It is a clich\u00E9 to say that animals have no voice, but the reality is that animals cannot speak for themselves. They have no voice and they have no vote, and they are not able to make submissions on this bill, which directly affects them. So it is essential that Parliament really listens to those people who have expertise in animal welfare and can speak on their behalf. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EThe focus for the Green Party will be firmly on ensuring that this bill genuinely protects animals from cruel living conditions and abuse, regardless of whether they are farm animals or companion animals. If after the submission process there are no substantial improvements to this bill, it is unlikely that we will continue to vote for it. This is because the bill in its current form will not result in meaningful improvement in welfare outcomes for working animals\u2014in particular, factory-farmed animals. An animal welfare bill is meant to be just that\u2014a bill that puts in place legal protections to ensure the well-being of animals. That means the bill needs to address the current systematic practices that cause ongoing suffering to working animals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand animals work very hard for us. They form the backbone of our economy, with animal products forming 45 percent of New Zealand exports last year. As well as food, fibre, entertainment, and income, animals provide us with companionship, affection, and security. We should, as an absolute minimum, ensure decent lives for them. And quite apart from doing the right thing for animals, our reputation as an ethical food producer relies upon this. As recent experiences around the safety of our food exports have demonstrated, we cannot be too vigilant on this front. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EPublic opinion against cruel food production practices is increasing both in New Zealand and internationally. As this country, we risk a serious backlash if we continue to sanction the suffering of millions of animals that are killed on factory farms and elsewhere. We have been exposed on television to the appalling conditions that these animals spend their whole lives in. Most New Zealanders are repelled by what they have seen\u2014images of hens kept in cruel, cramped cages suffering extreme feather loss, broken bones, foot deformities, and ammonia burns, and pigs in crates with sores on their bodies. These animals are clearly suffering, unhealthy, and distressed. It is a national disgrace that as a country we allow animals to be kept in such conditions for economic gain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EThe Animal Welfare Act places an obligation to meet the physical, health, and behavioural needs of animals in our care, and if this was enforced, then cruel practices such as those occurring in factory farming would not be permitted. And it is not just factory farms. I have seen distressing photos that have been emailed to me of animals that have been transported long distances, crammed so tight that their skin has been rubbed raw to the flesh. And we know that every year thousands more animals experience extreme levels of pain and suffering in unnecessary and unethical animal tests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EWe welcome the improvements in transparency in this bill, but none the less there are some tests that should absolutely be ruled out. These practices are clearly in breach of the main provisions of the Act, and they occur because the Act contains loopholes that allow them to continue. I had hoped that last year\u2019s review of the Act would result in a bill that closed these loopholes and ensured that the main provisions of the Act were properly enforced. Unfortunately, this amendment bill does not do that. Of particular concern is clause 56. It inserts section 183A, which allows for practices that do not meet the obligations of the Act to continue indefinitely. That is completely unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EThere is no room in a decent society for Government-condoned cruelty to animals, least of all for the indefinite confinement of animals in cages. Parliament has a moral and ethical responsibility to legislate against such cruel practices for animals. We believe that clause 56 must be removed and that existing practices that do not meet the obligations of the Act must be phased out within a specified time period. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty, whether it happens to a pig, a cow, or a dog. Farm animals are just as deserving of protection from cruelty as companion animals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EAnother important area is animal testing and experimentation. As I have said, it is great to see more transparency in the bill in this area, but we really want to see a clause added that prohibits the animal testing of both cosmetic and recreational drugs along the lines of Trevor Mallard\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. The reason for this is that such testing on animals causes extremely high levels of pain and suffering. It is completely unnecessary and unethical\u2014there are alternatives to these tests\u2014and it is completely and strongly opposed by New Zealanders, as we have seen in respect of the recent Psychoactive Substances Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EWith this bill we have another chance to get it right and rule out these tests completely. Such a move would be aligned with what is happening internationally. In the last year alone, animal testing of cosmetics and/or recreational drugs has been banned in Israel, in India, in Italy, and in all 28 countries of the European Union. It is time we followed suit. There are many other changes we would like to see, and we will talk about these more during the select committee process. But we would particularly welcome a clear prohibition on the export of live animals for slaughter; independent monitoring of animals used in breeding, racing, and entertainment; and the establishment of an independent parliamentary advocate for animals, such as a commissioner with oversight of animal welfare in New Zealand. All of these changes would help ensure better outcomes for animals. We have a golden opportunity to become world leaders in animal welfare and ethical food production. It is time we took it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002203fbc0e0fbe64e4e8a6203598429b2cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203fbc0e0fbe64e4e8a6203598429b2cb\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak in the first reading of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill and I look forward to the submissions that will come to the Primary Production Committee on this matter. Other speakers have touched on, and certainly the Minister for Primary Industries has covered, the need for New Zealand to be absolutely transparent and better than most\u2014ahead of the pack, if you like\u2014internationally in animal welfare issues. That is without debate, and without any dissention, I would suggest, because we are so dependent on our animal production systems for our export earnings and the standard of living that we enjoy in New Zealand. But there are a few issues, I guess, that need to be teased out in this discussion\u2014that is, just how will this legislation work? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhat the proposed amendments in the bill do is allow for a regulatory authority, or for a code, if you like\u2014what has formerly been known as the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee, or NAWAC\u2014to take all things into consideration when it makes its decisions. This brings a higher degree of transparency and enforceability to the work that it does, and that is a good thing. It has been required for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECould I also touch briefly in the few moments that I have on the issue that has been so passionately spoken about by the Hon John Banks and the Hon Trevor Mallard\u2014that is, the testing of psychoactive substances on animals. As a member of the Health Committee as well as the Primary Production Committee, I know that the dilemma that the Health Committee faced was whether you would set a separate and different standard for the testing of psychoactive drugs than you would for drugs in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c3e0a3615343639285367bb4768120\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226abe93d0268c40b6a3e751319a083626\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The answer from the member is \u201CYes.\u201D, and if that is the will of Parliament, well, so be it. But, effectively, in that debate we were looking at whether or not there should be a full ban or a prohibition, if you like, on these drugs full stop, and I think that Parliament overwhelmingly conceded that prohibitions do not work. The member himself, the Hon Trevor Mallard, spoke passionately about a relative who ran a club distributing alcohol in the King Country during the time when there was a prohibition in the King Country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E Prohibitions generally do not work, so what is the next best option? The next best option is harm minimisation. So then the dilemma is whether you have the same standard of test for the harm minimisation of psychoactive drugs as you would have for any other type of drug that you might use for medical applications. Members have said yes, so that is fine. If Parliament decides that is where it should be and that is the overwhelming majority of the consensus, well, so be it. I have no strong view on that, one way or another. I will of course ask the question, though, do you believe it is better to test these drugs on our young people in New Zealand than it is to have these things tested on animals? That is a debate for people to have and for people to have a view on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI guess the next real issue is the definition of animal welfare, because, you see, everyone has a view on that. Sometimes when I have been in the cities and I see a well-loved German shepherd cooped up in an apartment, overweight because the owners are loving the animal to death, I actually see that as an animal welfare issue. I do. I see it quite regularly\u2014cats, dogs, and other loved pets that are overfed, under-exercised, and cooped up for long hours because the owners are away at work. That is an animal welfare issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EProbably the issue that I really want to touch on in closing, though, is this. During the flooding in the Whakat\u0101ne area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224caf8db265594efeaeb47bac566d63aa\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CFokat\u0101ne\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1bec1fb70a432dae8b5b01ffac4059\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the Whakat\u0101ne area there was a major animal welfare issue up there\u2014a major animal welfare issue. There were farms that went completely under water. Houses, cow sheds\u2014everything went under water. I was invited up there as part of the agriculture team in the National caucus at that time. The SPCA, an organisation that I have a lot of respect for, drove out from Tauranga to where it could have been helping people move these animals and carrying out useful work. But instead of that, it served notice on some of those farmers because their cows had been standing in a cow yard, or somewhere high above the water\u2014and the only way they could keep them alive was to do that\u2014and they were not able to transport them there and then because the Ministry of Transport had shut down the drivers of the trucks that had come from other parts of the country to shift them away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2a7d72bb1f40e78db6919c67dbd173\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Just shows there\u2019s idiots everywhere\u2014just shows there\u2019s idiots everywhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266c939ed783e42dc8d9e81b5cb14c6d0\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes\u2014well, you know, Trevor, that is what happened\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aa24181034c4291a95cec58788cc844\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da75d1b327374acebc3eb64c44adb737\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff8b7a590e94ebab84e37ce4b6d561c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It is \u201CMr Mallard\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220202b4155d1d4ae194b77f822392d307\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Trevor Mallard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa9196330ef4e8d8e82bb323789f181\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Well done, Mr Ardern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f0af70fb444be9aa96844c9bf10991\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So that is what happened. So in my view, the SPCA were creating an animal welfare issue by being bureaucratic and less than supportive of those people, who were distressed at the time, and some of the animals were, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo this is going to be an interesting debate going forward, obviously, on who says what about what animal welfare is and determining what that actually means, and just how, through the select committee, aided and abetted by good, solid legislation, we can decide that and the outcomes of it. Thank you. I look forward to the passage of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u002219ceede75cbb4ed493412fd503f50b1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219ceede75cbb4ed493412fd503f50b1c\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to take a call in this first reading of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. New Zealand First supports this bill at least going to the Primary Production Committee in the first instance and very probably beyond, but I would signal that we do have some concerns that we will seek to have addressed. The general policy statement tells us that the bill \u201Cmakes changes to the Animal Welfare Act 1999 \u2026 to improve the enforceability, clarity, and transparency of New Zealand\u2019s animal welfare system.\u201D These are commendable goals. New Zealand First is very pleased to be able to stand in support of them. The statement indicates that the changes will \u201Cenhance the operation of the Act, rather than alter the fundamental principles and policy settings, which\u201D\u2014it proclaims\u2014\u201Cremain appropriate.\u201D This may be regarded as a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThe bill implements the Government\u2019s decisions resulting from the 2011-12 review of the Animal Welfare Act, so this bill is essentially a device by which the existing Act may be brought up to date and may be made to be more functional. As I have alluded to, there are, quite naturally, one or two aspects of the bill as it has been introduced with which we are not entirely happy. We will seek to address these at the select committee, or later on by way of a Supplementary Order Paper, as circumstances dictate. We note that under the current Act the export of livestock for slaughter is prohibited\u2014which we are happy about\u2014except with the consent of the Director-General of the Ministry for Primary Industries. This bill will tidy up some of the regulations and processes around that issue, but we further note that the bill will not change this policy per se. This we find somewhat disappointing. New Zealand First can think of no good reason for allowing the export of livestock at all for any purpose other than perhaps breeding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2575bf9c9b94f0c854392fecf5f9d4c\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Come on\u2014what about racehorses? What about cattle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbaa12a429d049aa96cb9ce0ca300ddc\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that itself should be subject to some fairly stringent conditions with few, if any, exemptions. Bloodstock would, of course, be one example. But the general export of New Zealand breeding livestock is not, we would contend, in the greater interests of \u201CNew Zealand Inc\u201D as a whole, particularly when it involves the selling of prime New Zealand bloodlines\u2014dairy cows, for example, or fine-wool merinos\u2014to our competitor nations in these crucial industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First does not advocate killing the golden goose, nor does it approve of selling the goose to foreign buyers. We can sell the golden eggs, we can sell the feathers, we can sell the p\u00E2t\u00E9 de foie gras\u2014these are all good things\u2014but to sell the goose itself is counter-productive, in our view. This may not be the most appropriate bill to deal with this issue, but it is a fine opportunity to make the point. Given that in most instances livestock being exported will be going to countries and jurisdictions where the treatment of animals is not afforded the same degree of importance that we in New Zealand would generally consider as being of a required standard, I do think it fitting to raise the issue with regard to what will be the deliberations of this House on the matters that this bill encompasses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First does have an issue with the transparency provisions of the bill. Although we acknowledge that the explanatory note, under the heading of \u201CEnforceability\u201D, makes reference to regulations that support codes of welfare \u201Cby setting specific and enforceable mandatory standards, for example, prohibitions on the use of sow stalls or requirements for layer hen housing.\u201D, we are concerned by some further references to these very issues in the section on transparency. The explanatory note states that \u201CThe Bill makes the criteria that the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee (NAWAC) consider when developing codes of welfare more transparent by explicitly including \u2018practicality\u2019 and \u2018economic impact\u2019 as second-tier considerations. This will allow economic and practical factors to be considered alongside, but not to outweigh, animal welfare issues.\u201D Well, either they do or they do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EI would contend that the very fact that these considerations, whether they be second-tier or not, are to be allowed to be examined alongside animal welfare issues suggests that almost by definition they will indeed in some cases be allowed to outweigh them. In the same section of the bill, the explanatory note informs us that \u201CThe Bill also replaces the exceptional circumstances provisions with transitions and exemptions. The exceptional circumstances provisions currently enable NAWAC to recommend minimum standards in codes of welfare that do not fully meet the obligations in the Act. These provisions have been used, for example, to permit the use of battery cages until a certain date is reached and to permit the ongoing use of farrowing crates for pigs with no final date. The new provisions will enable NAWAC to recommend regulations permitting practices that do not fully meet the obligations in the Act\u2014during a transition to a new practice where there is a defined expiry date: [or] for an indefinite period where there is a need for an exemption. The Bill establishes criteria that would need to be satisfied before a transition or an exemption is recommended, and an exemption would only be available if a transition were not feasible. Exemptions would need to be reviewed within 10 years, or earlier if the regulations so specify.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EOnce again, this is a case of either it is or it is not. Either we as a nation give enough of a continental to pass a law that affords proper priority to the concerns of animal welfare or we do not. We cannot say that we care about animal welfare but only up to the point where caring is going to cost us money or put us out. We can do better than that, and New Zealand First contends that we should. We would like to see this bill making a bold statement, a definitive statement, a statement that hoists a flag and says this is the way forward. We would like to see this bill set an end date beyond which sow crates and battery cages may not be used in New Zealand. We would like to see this bill mark the road ahead; for it to say to the industries concerned: \u201CThis is what you will achieve, and this is when you will achieve it by.\u201D We would like to see that incorporated in this bill, and we will be lobbying for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EOne thing we will not be lobbying for, however, is Supplementary Order Paper 341, in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard. New Zealand First members will not be supporting this Supplementary Order Paper. That is not because we do not think that the Hon Trevor Mallard will make a fine Speaker of this House in due course and in the fullness of time\u2014quite the contrary. We do believe that Mr Mallard will make a very fine Speaker when the time comes for that baton to be passed into his care. We will be opposing it because we do not have a blanket opposition to the use of animal testing. New Zealand First members accept that there remains in this day and age a need for the use of animal models in the testing and evaluation of medical substances intended for the use and betterment of humans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EWe do not agree with the use of animal testing for such things as cosmetics. We accept that there is very probably little point in using animal testing for the evaluation of substances that are intended to have a psychoactive effect in humans. But in terms of pure toxicity there is not, at this time, a viable alternative to animal models when it comes to determining how much or how little of any particular substance is too much. The term LD50 is an abbreviation for lethal dose 50 percent. It is the dose of any given substance in milligrams per kilogram of bodyweight at which half the rats died. Medicines are tested against this model, as are industrial chemicals, agricultural chemicals, pesticides, herbicides, and even food additives. We all rely on animal testing to a greater degree than I think many people realise. New Zealand First does not advocate for, and is opposed to\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dd08f82a3ea484ab08fd0604fd9570b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sorry, somebody has got a cellphone. I heard it ringing. It is not permitted. The member will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4a7ede31d84e708b731cc39c64d5a3\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER\u003C/span\u003E: We do not believe in testing potentially poisonous psychoactive substances on dogs or cats, or on dolphins and chimpanzees for that matter. But no one ever said it was going to be easy being a rat, and if a few rats have to die so that a large number of humans do not, then that is something we can live with. That may be harsh and in the future it may not be needed. Perhaps in the fullness of time we will have computer modelling that can replace it, but for now it remains a necessary evil. For that reason New Zealand First will not be supporting Mr Mallard\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I reiterate that we do support what we perceive as being the broad aims of this bill. We do accept that there is a motivation to improve the lot of our furry and feathered friends and we will happily support this bill\u2019s referral to a select committee, at least in the first instance. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00227f52dc754daa40a49dce13bad333d72c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f52dc754daa40a49dce13bad333d72c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next member, can I just advise the House that the Chamber is a place of listening and debate. This is not a call centre. Cellphones are not an extension of the member\u2019s office and when in the House they must be in silent mode.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022780256eab7fa4fde86b7f6f4e7e07bbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022780256eab7fa4fde86b7f6f4e7e07bbb\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to make a contribution during the first reading of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, and I must commend the level of debate that has preceded me. There is no doubt that there is a lot of emotion, a lot of passion for the welfare of all animals, and when one reflects on the progress that has actually been made over the last 30 years in managing this topic, one can say that there has been a marked improvement. However, that having been said, it is also very clear that society\u2019s expectations have moved along considerably.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EFundamentally, this bill will establish a framework under which enforceability, clarity, and transparency can occur. And when we look at that enforceability, there were some very passionate arguments put forward from various contributors to this debate, but unless we have a framework whereby those people with the responsibility can actually make people accountable for poor practice or for cruelty, then it is of no avail. That is where the difficulty really lies, because there quite often is not a silver bullet to addressing these issues, and they need to be well-thought-through. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So, effectively, this is what the bill endeavours to do, and we acknowledge the fact that as a nation 50 percent of our export receipts come from the sale of animal proteins. On that basis we have got to be very, very resilient and very accountable and transparent in the way that we deal with things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EJust looking at the two sides of the debate, we have the agricultural basis, which is enormous, but on the other hand we have a large population of domestic pets. It is interesting, when I think about it: the saying is that the dog admires its owner, the cat despises its owner, and the pig treats the human as equal. It is quite humorous but, however, we are surrounded by animals. We have one and a half million cats in New Zealand, we have close to half a million domestic dogs, 31 million sheep, 3.75 million beef cattle, six and a half million dairy cattle, and a million deer. So when you look at the proportionality of four and a half million New Zealanders dealing with a population of that size\u2014and yet we are feeding probably 20 million to 30 million worldwide, and that is what maintains our standard of living\u2014it is crucial that we do maintain locally, nationally, and internationally a leading standard around animal welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI certainly welcome the opportunity for debate around the psychoactive substances. It will be very important that we actually take away the heartstring tugs that we feel, and the difficulty around the morals of that situation. But, again, when we boil it all down and we think of the national effect, one only has to cast one\u2019s mind back to the 6 o\u2019clock news and what can appear on that. We have to be really resourceful so that we have a framework around animal welfare that can, in time, develop. I see in the bill that it is going to take up to 5 years to get some of these regulations really developed and set in so that they do work appropriately. It is going to be 5 years. It gives us a lot of time to get it right, and I believe that the select committee has the resources and also the clarity of thought, on balance, in respect of how to make this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI certainly welcome the arrival of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, and, in doing so, we look forward to dealing with it in the select committee, with great diligence and professionalism. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7e19623c82c4784bbf3c1f7856742c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7e19623c82c4784bbf3c1f7856742c5\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start by saying what is good about this Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. It regulates to create enforceable standards where, before, the old codes were not directly enforceable. It sets up a tiered enforcement scheme with infringement notices and a range of penalties. It creates compliance orders, so that animal welfare inspectors can stop a person from doing something that contravenes the Act. And it enables mandatory standards for the export of live animals to be set in regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut in other ways this bill is a disappointment. It fails to fix one of the big defects in the current Animal Welfare Act, and that is the provision that allows indefinite exemptions for breaches of the animal welfare obligations. In the Animal Welfare Act, codes are intended to set out standards of care and welfare. However, many of the codes contain standards that violate the Act\u2019s own welfare obligations. Even more bizarre, the exemption clauses in the Act allow these breaches to continue for indefinite periods of time. In my view, exemption clauses have been invoked too readily, particularly in relation to factory farming practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt has been 14 years\u201414 years\u2014since the Act was passed, and I think it is fair to say that there has been incremental improvement, but too little improvement, in the minimum standards for animal welfare under the 15 welfare codes now in existence. Under these codes, many farm animals suffer practices that violate the welfare obligations in the Act. That is clear. Layer hens continue to be kept in battery cages, confining a hen for the duration of its life in a cage with a floor smaller than an A4 sheet of paper, a sloping mesh floor, and a height of only 35 centimetres to 40 centimetres. It is flagrant breach of the Act\u2019s welfare obligations, but the Government does not intend to phase out battery cages until 2022. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe code of welfare for broiler chickens disregards the welfare obligations in the Act. It allows stocking densities of 19 birds per square metre\u201419 birds per square metre. There is no ability for birds to express their natural behaviours; the lighting and ventilation standards, I argue, are inadequate; the code fails to address the selective breeding of so-called non-survivor birds that are unable to support their own weight; and nor does it address the feeding of chemicals to promote rapid growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E Although the code of welfare for pigs will see the use of sow crates phased out over the next year, it will still be lawful to continue using farrowing crates. I want to talk briefly about farrowing crates because I think they are perhaps the most egregious example of a breach of the Act\u2019s own welfare obligations that is currently allowed to continue indefinitely. Farrowing crates are used to house sows when they are about to give birth. They are about 2 metres long and 70 centimetres wide. They are designed to stop the sow from crushing the piglets by rolling on top of them. But the crate is so small that the sow can only stand up or lie down. Sows are kept in these cages for up to 12 weeks per year. The Government acknowledges that the use of farrowing crates does not meet the animal welfare obligations in the Act. That is clear. That is a fact. They do not allow the sows to express their normal behaviour. And with the aid of the exemption clause, the Government perpetuates this inhumane practice, arguing that there are no better commercially available alternatives. This is a triumph of commercial expediency over ethics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIn fact, the commercial argument itself does not even hold up. Thirty-five percent of sows already give birth in alternative systems. Some are outdoor and some are indoor, but all require more space. The pig industry admits that alternative systems can be as good as, or even better than, the farrowing crates, when it comes to productivity. The international literature shows clearly that there is no difference in piglet mortality rates between, for example, Sweden, where farrowing crates are banned, and Denmark, where they are used. The critical difference here is that free-range methods require more space, more land. Farrowing crates, by their very nature, are more intensive. They require less space and therefore they are cheaper. It comes down to money, and that is what is going on here. The Government, through the inadequacies of the Animal Welfare Act, is colluding with factory farming to perpetuate inhumane and cruel practices because they are cheaper than a decent, humane alternative. If we look at the bill before the House, section 183A(5), inserted by clause 56, allows these indefinite exemptions to continue\u2014to continue ad infinitum. Pigs could be kept in farrowing crates for decades to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis bill, as other speakers have argued, offers a chance to end or reduce the suffering of millions\u2014millions\u2014of factory-farmed animals in New Zealand. And I believe that as New Zealanders are ready to make a choice and say that animals should not be used to test party drugs, New Zealanders are also ready to raise the standards of animal welfare. This House and the Government deserve credit for finding the courage to ban sow crates. Now they need to follow through and ban farrowing crates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere is growing revulsion at the cruelty of keeping hens in battery cages, and I believe that that should be banned much sooner than 2022. I intend to bring a Supplementary Order Paper to the House that would close the loophole of section 183A(5) and ensure that any practice that did not meet the welfare obligations contained in the Animal Welfare Act would have to be phased out within 5 years. Animal-based agriculture contributes more than $21 billion to the economy every year. Factory-farmed animals contribute only 2.3 percent of that figure, but some of the inhumane practices of factory farming are a stain on the reputation of our farming sector and potentially a threat to this important industry. For the sake of brand New Zealand, we should be making ethical and humane farming practices just as much a feature of our reputation as food safety, high quality, and sustainability. But this argument, above all, is about what is right. To subject sentient creatures to such misery and cruelty on an industrial scale simply in order to allow some producers to undercut their competitors on price is, in my view, unethical. It is time to remove this contradiction from our law that identifies a practice as a breach of the law and then in the same breath gives it an indefinite exemption. It is not right, it is not the Kiwi way, and it is time to change it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f434c227d98f4ceb96fc847a39d2f974\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f434c227d98f4ceb96fc847a39d2f974\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E I came to Parliament to represent an electorate, Rangit\u012Bkei, that is very dependent on the well-being of animals, the welfare of animals, and the health of animals to make its living. Interestingly, I have spent much of my life involved in a sport and a business that are dependent on animals for their survival. I would go so far as to say that many of my best friends have been animals. That is because they can be trusted, they are faithful, they are sympathetic, and they are always there when needed. There is the odd human who demonstrates the same traits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022816d23c95ca24bd5a07b757b675fe4d2\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227190da12e70a48d9ac77a4ae586f3a08\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014name one. This bill is an enabler. It enables us to build a more competitive and productive economy. It creates suitable legislation to ensure that animals are treated well. We have become world leaders in welfare\u2014in animal welfare\u2014which we surely must be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to touch on three things. One is our pets. We own pets with confidence, and this bill enables that. Did you know that 68 percent of all New Zealand households have a pet? That is an amazing statistic. There is everything, from a donkey to a mouse, from a cat to a bird. The fact that we have cats and birds as pets makes the call of Gareth Morgan a little hard to follow until one realises that many of those pet cats that are supposedly loved by New Zealand citizens are then dumped in the wild. This is what creates most of our problem with our wild cats: the fact that people do not look after their pets properly. As I have said, this bill is an enabler. By containing many of its tools in regulation, it allows welfare standards to evolve more freely for societal expectations, science, current practice, and technology. The world is evolving and changing so quickly that I can understand the need for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to talk briefly about standards applying to the live export of animals. We must remember that the racing industry, the thoroughbred breeding industry, and the horse industry would not survive in this country at all were it not for the live export of animals. The dairy industry is exporting a considerable number of animals around the world at the moment with significant benefit to that industry. So, as we work our way through the standards for live export, we need to be very cautious that we do not compromise the good parts of that export industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to talk briefly about fireworks. I do not like the way we let off fireworks around this country. I think that it is particularly relevant or pertinent when one talks about animal welfare in this country, and I think that in the course of this bill we should deal with this issue to the best effect we can, because there is no question in my mind that fireworks are extremely intimidating for animals. We have talked about psychoactive substance testing at length this morning. I tend to agree with most of what has been said, although I did hear a fellow on a relatively well-known TV programme not very far from here a few weeks ago offering to test them on himself provided we paid him enough money to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d42ca0235e6a467bad5300d0d225ec44\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: He might have failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ac632bc35e447289c966d1c978c40f\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: I thought it was quite good, actually. I think he would have failed the test at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI have got no problem with supporting this bill. I think it is fantastic. It provides clarity and the tools to ensure the integrity of our export industry. Finally, the way we treat our animals measures us as a nation. If we can treat our animals well, we can live at ease with our fellow human beings. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00228afbb75c10154aa18b940b22b3249213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228afbb75c10154aa18b940b22b3249213\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand this is a split call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2ed6ad3f7cf44a7912509601695f530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2ed6ad3f7cf44a7912509601695f530\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that as well. It is a pleasure to follow my colleague from the Manawat\u016B, Ian McKelvie. I think he spoke very well to the purposes and thrust of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, which is to ensure and improve animal welfare. He recognised, as I am sure other speakers have, how important New Zealand taking a positive and progressive stance on animal welfare is to our international reputation, and therefore how important it is to our economy. There is no doubt that although people are probably acutely aware of welfare issues when it comes to domestic animals\u2014pets, cats, dogs, mice, and birds\u2014perhaps sometimes farm animals, particularly for urban dwellers, are a little bit more distant, and we need to be aware of the welfare of production livestock as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWhat I want to talk about this morning, in the brief call that I have, is how our position relating to the testing of psychoactive substances on animals relates to that international reputation that is so important to our export economy. It was an oversight of the Health Committee not to receive submissions regarding the testing of psychoactive substances on animals. We had the choice. It was not out of scope for us to hear those submissions. It was a matter for the committee to decide on, and the National Party members of that committee blocked us from hearing submissions on issues of animal testing of psychoactive substances. That was the National Party members on the Health Committee. The argument was made at the time that that was not the right piece of legislation to consider that issue. I disagree with that argument, but the argument was made at the time. Indeed, the chair of the Primary Production Committee also sits on the Health Committee, and he made the comment at the time that the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill would be the appropriate mechanism through which to consider those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ETherefore, I implore the members of the Primary Production Committee to hear submissions on animal welfare in relation to the testing of psychoactive substances. I implore the thousands upon thousands of people who emailed us when we were considering the Psychoactive Substances Bill, and the thousands upon thousands of people who have written to the Minister for Primary Industries, facilitated by my colleague Trevor Mallard, to make their submissions to the Primary Production Committee and have their voices heard. This Government far too often overrides democracy, silences our citizens, cuts people off from their democratic right to have their say about the way legislation is passed in this country, and it must not do it on this bill. It must hear those submissions because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bc9f4c4eb974a828885c8c780ea8395\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e263f88ec56e473f8dafb0e2a37700d6\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: How many? I think about 4,000, I reckon you will get. I may be pitching it a little low there, but I reckon there will be about 4,000. I reckon many of those will be substantive, and the members on that committee should hear them. In fact, I pledge that if that committee finds that there is too much work, I will help out. I will come and substitute in. I will help out and come and support that committee so that it can hear those submissions, because I think New Zealanders are sick and tired of having their democratic rights undermined, and they need to be heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThis is not just an issue of animal welfare; this is an economic issue of New Zealand\u2019s reputation internationally, because we know that the world is looking at us because of the innovative approach that this Parliament has taken to psychoactive substances. The world is watching to see how that new regime actually works out, and they will certainly be watching to see whether or not we accept the testing of psychoactive substances on animals. I have spoken to people working in the industry, and they assure me that testing on animals is not necessary. If it is not necessary, let us make it clear. Let us stop the testing of psychoactive substances on animals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u002274f12a1efce74af4bd57cd00e80cb680\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274f12a1efce74af4bd57cd00e80cb680\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the first reading of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. The Green Party is supporting it going to the select committee. We want New Zealand to be world leaders in ethical food production. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EA friend in the National Party said that he saw this as an enabling bill, but we have to be very, very careful that this bill does not rest at a level of just enough, and that it is not just seen as a bill minimis, as such. We have to reflect that in the rural scene and our farming scene there are systematic practices on our working animals that really have to be looked at very, very hard. We have to lift the game on those because we are getting too many bad stories. But it is actually still our average. Can we lift our average up a bit, to be something that absolutely everyone, rural and urban, can be very, very proud of? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EAnimal products, as stated earlier, make up 45 percent of our export income. Our economy is underpinned by these animals, particularly these working animals. We also know very, very well what international expectations are around food safety, for example, how much that expectation is rising, how important that is, and how closely we are being regarded. Animal welfare is similar, and it must be rapidly improved to ensure that it is not the next Clostridium, dicyandiamide, endosulfan - type event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EPhotos of cages or mistreated dairy animals are not ambiguous. An image is way, way less likely to be seen as a false positive, as we might get in some food safety issues. Our clean, green, \u201C100% Pure\u201D branding and ethical stature means that this bill must ensure the absolute best possible outcomes that translate into something that New Zealanders, rural and urban, can be very, very proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003ELive animal exports are intended to be managed through regulations through this legislation. Let us look at stopping the live export of animals for slaughter, full stop. Let us have a look at that. In the select committee, I think we will see some submissions that will give us good cause to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWhy are some of these exemptions that are foreshadowed in this bill seen to be acceptable? We need transitions that are not indefinite; we need transitions that have a very clear and short-term cap on them. It has been mentioned already that in section 183A(5), inserted by clause 56 of the bill, we have reviews. Those reviews must be much shorter, as a mandatory, than 10 years, but we actually need caps in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EAlso, it has been mentioned around psychoactive drugs testing on animals. It was appalling that the submitters could not present to the full cross-section of the House their submissions that they had made in good faith around psychoactive drugs. The speaker from National compared this: do we test on young people or animals? There is absolutely no need to test on either. That is something that came out of the submissions to the Green Party, which listened to those submissions. We do not need to do either. We can deal with the psychoactive drugs testing very, very quickly\u2014short and sharp. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EResearch is one other issue. We have to think of the genetically engineered animals up at Ruakura where they struggle to get 5 to 10 percent of inseminations to come through to live births. Often, it is zero out of a batch. There are \u201Cgoys\u201D up there\u2014goats. They call them \u201Cgoys\u201D\u2014females in a boy\u2019s body. They come out as young male goats and are induced into milking at 9 months by hormone treatment and the like. The number of abortions and the issues up there are appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThese are things that we can address very, very well through this bill if we put enough emphasis on them. We can make a significant change through this legislation. As we say, we support it going to the select committee and look forward to hearing the submissions on that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00221320fa07300343e49dca7a0846682efb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221320fa07300343e49dca7a0846682efb\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand and speak on the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, which is before us. I am not a member of the Primary Production Committee, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea7344262f234bc7823aeba6554a740f\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d make a big contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1b4b2313b7a49a68a77b17a8787fddd\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: No doubt it would like to call me in occasionally. I did have the advantage, I think, of growing up on a farm for the first 10 years of my life. I had that awkward experience of having animals as pets on the farm. I think of the pets that I had, which were calves, lambs, pigs, and horses. Unfortunately, in my memory, every single one of my pets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d97b6811f244e4b877a937d61b2b7b4\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Died?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a6d4860f3f14c2e9afdef2b44753e81\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014died. Some were economic units and some just had accidents. I think that that experience of having a farm animal as a pet sort of shows a little bit of what this whole issue is all about, because we have animals as contributors to our economy and we have animals as contributors to the sense of well-being that we enjoy as companions. Trying to find the right middle ground in this area is really important, which is why this bill is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIt is important for animals\u2019 sake, but it is also important for our sake. How we treat living things that are lesser than ourselves and often dependent upon us and loyal to us says a lot about who we are. I recall the remark of a man called Milan Kundera, who says: \u201CHumanity\u2019s true moral test, its fundamental test, consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy: animals.\u201D I think it is important, therefore, that this bill goes to the select committee. There are some very important aspects of it that will be discussed and debated, and it will no doubt receive some submissions from the general public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIt is important to understand that there are a number of provisions in the Animal Welfare Act that require greater clarity and enforceability, and, as the select committee identifies those and works through them as they are in the amendment bill, I think we are going to come to some good place where we can continue to see the contribution to our economy that animals bring and also the well-being of their lives, as New Zealand is, no doubt, very committed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIt is a very important bill before the House, and I am very pleased to stand in support of it. I wish the select committee all the best as it goes through this process. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022620bfab45b7b47b6b8e6e9d607a64148\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022620bfab45b7b47b6b8e6e9d607a64148\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move without debate an instruction to the Primary Production Committee requiring it to consider the prevention of animal testing of psychoactive substances in its consideration of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c84ff56b11834394b5588b42439f7419\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? No, there is not? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022508d642fd5344264814729322556b8a3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That it be an instruction to the Primary Production Committee in its consideration of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill that it consider and, if it sees fit, adopt the amendments in my name set out on Supplementary Order Paper 341, relating to preventing the use of animal testing for the purposes of gaining approval for psychoactive substances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233b192244a32401984fa48332ae59fb9\u0022\u003EVictims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d13f97514713440f9282beae7bf499b8\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8d3070c68cb49319d8feec2716f0bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8d3070c68cb49319d8feec2716f0bea\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Law and Order Committee to consider the bill. This bill demonstrates the Government\u2019s support for the victims of serious violent and sexual offences. The bill would create a new civil order, called a non-contact order, to reduce the likelihood of a victim of the serious violent or sexual offence coming into contact with the offender once they are released from prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EResearch shows that the impact and effect of serious violent and sexual offences can last for a significant period of time after an offence has been committed. The healing and recovery process of victims can be hindered by ongoing fear and anxiety about the offender. Victims can suffer significant setbacks in their recovery if they come into contact with the person who offended against them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThis Government is determined to support these victims. Through a non-contact order, the court will be able to impose conditions prohibiting an offender from contacting the victim in any way and prohibiting an offender from living or working near the victim. The order will be available on application by the victim of the serious violent or sexual offence that resulted in the offender being sentenced to 5 or more years in prison for that offence. This will ensure that only the most serious offenders are captured by the order. The bill shares the definition of the \u201Cvictim\u201D in the Victims\u2019 Rights Acts 2002, and a victim can include the close family members of a murder or manslaughter victim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThere are already a number of mechanisms to restrict or monitor the behaviour of an offender. These include a mixture of conditions imposed at sentence and orders imposed on application. Examples of these are parole conditions, extended supervision orders, and civil and criminal orders. The purpose of these existing mechanisms is to manage offenders after their release from prison, to enhance public safety, and, in the case of protection and restraining orders, to protect individuals from perpetrators of domestic violence or harassment. However, these mechanisms do not cover all situations. If an offender is not subject to restrictive parole conditions, or in a case where a victim does not qualify for either a protection order or a restraining order, the current law does not provide any mechanism for preventing unwanted contact with the offender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThis creates the need for the non-contact order. Situations like the one we have seen in Invercargill where a convicted rapist moved near to his victim clearly demonstrate that everyday events such as walking past the driveway of the offender can be very stressful for the victim of a serious violent or sexual offence. Where these situations arise but the victim does not have either a restraining order or a protection order against the offender, the police cannot take any enforcement actions unless and until the offender commits a subsequent offence. We want to ensure that victims are not left feeling unsafe in their homes and unprotected by the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe new order is flexible, to ensure that a judge can decide how many or how few conditions are necessary and which conditions are practicable and workable in the circumstances of each case. This flexibility should ensure that the order can be effective for victims, no matter what their circumstances. For example, it should be able to prevent or limit contact with the offender, whether the person who offended against them has moved next door, two blocks away, or 5 kilometres away. Breaches of the order will be punished by the same graduated penalty system as for breaches of restraining orders. The maximum penalty available will be up to 2 years in prison for multiple breaches within a 3-year period. This penalty ensures the breaches will be dealt with seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThis order will help fill a gap in the justice system where victims are not able to access existing legal protection mechanisms. It shows the Government\u2019s support for the victims of the worst offences, and it will help those victims feel safer while they continue on their journey to recovery. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00225af17977ce7b4cac9d8d2f27ecec60a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225af17977ce7b4cac9d8d2f27ecec60a7\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill and say that the objective of this bill is a very important objective\u2014in fact I would go as far as saying it is an essential objective, and we have no objection to it. That objective is to protect victims of violent crime and to protect them after the perpetrator of the crime against them has either been convicted and served their sentence, if they have been incarcerated, or, if they have not been incarcerated, at least are managing their post-conviction processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the problem with this bill is that the way it has been promoted by this Government is just totally cynical. The Hon Chester Borrows talked about the Invercargill case, which is the case that prompted this bill in the first place. The reality of that Invercargill case is that a rapist was sentenced to a term of 4 years and then, post-release, harassed and basically made a nuisance of himself towards his victim. In that case the victim would not be able to avail herself of an order under this bill, because the threshold is too high. When we look at the detail of that particular case and at what is in this bill, actually, the argument by the Government begins to unravel. It is not only the very high threshold that would apply in relation to victims who might be looking for just this type of protection and assistance, it is the very fact that it is the victim, once again, who has to take the initiative to protect themselves from something that the criminal justice system ought to take responsibility for. The burden falls on the victim. This, yet again, is from this Government, which boasts about, crows about, supporting victims. This is not a victims\u2019 rights piece of legislation. This, once again, yet again, by this Government, puts the burden back on the victim. It revictimises the victim. That is the problem with a Government that seeks to push red-hot buttons around the electorate, but has no real commitment to fixing the problem at all. It is just cynical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ELet us go through some of the issues in this legislation. There is the one I have already referred to, which is the cost to the victim. It is the victim who has to meet the cost, because it is a civil proceeding. Worse, the victim will have to front up to court to square off against the very person whom they are seeking a non-contact order against. That revictimises the victim again. Then there is the threshold, which requires a 5-year prison sentence, which is just way too high. There are victims of sexual offences and violent offences where the perpetrators do not get sentences of 5 years or more. They get much lesser sentences. But after the completion of their sentence, that perpetrator is equally capable of harassing and intimidating and threatening the victim of their crime, as in any other case. Why should those victims not have a remedy, if this Government is serious about victims? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill is totally inadequate. This is probably one of the laziest pieces of legislation I have seen, in my short time in Parliament. When you look at the regulatory impact statement, it is quite clear that the Ministry of Justice and the advisers to the Minister of Justice considered a range of options. They considered an amendment to the Harassment Act so that it would apply in these sorts of situations. But the Harassment Act, again, provides for a civil proceeding. A civil application is required for a restraining order, under that legislation. But the other sensible suggestion that the advisers came up with was an amendment to the Parole Act. I think one thing they failed, however, to suggest was an accompanying amendment to the Sentencing Act. They argued against, or advised against, an amendment to the Parole Act on the grounds that they were concerned about uncontrollable costs. The problem with that piece of analysis is that when they drew that conclusion they seemed to have forgotten that they expected there would be about 10 applications for this type of order each year, but they said they thought there would be a snowballing sort of effect. I think that could have been dealt with, ameliorated, by putting term limits on the extent of the application, with a right to renew on subsequent occasions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the fundamental point is this: this is a bill that deals with victims of crime\u2014victims of criminals. The criminal justice system is the part of our judicial system that should take responsibility for managing all aspects of the criminal\u2014not leaving it up to the victim, once the criminal justice system has disposed of and washed its hands of the offender. It should not leave it up to the victims to have to make applications to further protect themselves. That is the responsibility of the State. That is the responsibility of the criminal justice system. We are saying that the intent of this bill, the objective of it, should be achieved, can be achieved, under something like the Parole Act and perhaps the Sentencing Act, but should not be left to the victim to make application for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill, with these very severe reservations. We will support the bill at its first reading, to get it before a select committee, so we can hear from advisers and, perhaps, from the Minister to provide some further rationale, but also to see if we can come up with a piece of legislation that is a real victims\u2019 rights piece of legislation, not the piece of whitewash that we have in front of us at the moment. The Minister in an article, at least in relation to the \u201CBeast of Blenheim\u201D, had the temerity to come out and say that she is sick and tired of hearing from people like the lawyer for the \u201CBeast of Blenheim\u201D and his defence of that case, and the argument for his rights. The Minister, in fact, was quoted as saying: \u201CFrankly, I\u2019ve had enough of listening to people like the lawyer for the Beast of Blenheim, worrying about their rights\u2014and I am far more concerned about victims and their rights.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWell, that is a piece of bunkum, that is just hocus-pocus, by probably one of the laziest Ministers of Justice we have had for a long time. But I want to say this. Frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing from a Minister of Justice who does all the window dressing she can but does not deal with the real issue. She does it on victims\u2019 rights. She does it on other issues as well. She does not care. She does the minimum she can, to get away with the appearance of doing something meaningful. But this is not meaningful, as indeed are any other pieces of legislation that she has been responsible for. I was going to say \u201Cchampioned\u201D, but she is not a champion of anything, apart from herself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is a hopeless piece of legislation in its current form. It has good objectives. We should be doing something for victims of violent crime. We should be protecting them. We should be making adjustments to the criminal justice system so that those victims are protected. We should not be putting the burden back on victims, so they have to stump up, at their cost, and front up and face the person who has abused them, has raped them, has violently assaulted them. We should not be putting victims in that situation. We should be providing proper protection. This bill does not do that. Let us get past the hocus-pocus and the bunkum and all the window dressing that this Government and this Minister of Justice represent, and let us do something meaningful. Let us not only make the criminal justice system responsible for dealing with offenders who, upon conviction, are then punished and, if necessary, incarcerated and serve their time, but also make the criminal justice system truly responsible for protecting the victim. Let us come up with a system of orders that will properly protect the victims, at the State\u2019s cost, so that they do not face the threats and intimidation that were exemplified in the case in Invercargill. This bill simply does not do that. If we are serious in this House\u2019s drive and call to provide better protection for victims, we need to do something way better than this very lazy piece of legislation, coming from a very lazy Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill at its first reading. We will get it in front of the select committee, and we will pull it apart. We will hear from officials why they have abandoned their advice to the Minister to amend the Parole Act and to consider the Sentencing Act. Let us see if we cannot, together, if the National Government is serious, come up with something that will afford proper protection and be a genuine victims\u2019 rights piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e535af3967cb4803bdb5c77651155f8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e535af3967cb4803bdb5c77651155f8c\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and take a brief call on the first reading of the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill, which is in the name of the Hon Judith Collins. It is always interesting to follow that member Andrew Little, who is a good old-fashioned socialist from way back. In fact, I am disappointed that he is not contender No. 4, because with a speech like that you could rightly believe that he was a contender in every respect, other than being a nominee in the contest that is so captivating members of the Labour Party at the moment. As is in the best tradition of good old-fashioned socialists, there is something that is buried deep in the psyche that somehow wants to create victims who are victims again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E I am delighted to be able to speak in support of this bill, which proudly, and I think rightly so, puts the victim first in our criminal justice system. This is another piece of legislation that the Hon Judith Collins has championed in a way that has become almost a hallmark of her administration, and it is one that I support. She, as I do, makes no apology for putting victims first in our criminal justice system. It is completely unacceptable that victims of serious crime cannot be free from ongoing intimidation and persecution from those who have done the offending against them. The fact people cannot be allowed to get on freely with their lives, to return their lives to some sense of normality, after being victims of serious crime strikes me as being completely unacceptable in a modern society. So I make no apology on behalf of the Government for putting the rights of victims first in our system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis new piece of legislation is introducing a restraining order to protect victims of serious crime, or indeed sexual crimes, from further unwanted contact with those people who have perpetrated attacks upon them. It is completely unacceptable that a situation like this could have been allowed to occur for so long. Victims can feel intimidated. In fact, it can be more than just a feeling of intimidation; it can be actual real intimidation by having, for instance, a previous offender moving close into the victim\u2019s neighbourhood, maintaining contact with them, and being able to further persecute them even after the sentence that they have been convicted of has been served. This piece of legislation seeks to remedy that, and I say that it is about time too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ECurrently, protection and restraining orders are available only where there has been active harassment in a situation where there is a domestic relationship between the offender and the victim. Unfortunately, that means that for some victims there is currently no legal protection available to them, and I say that that is simply not good enough. These new orders, which will be issued by the District Court, will impose a range of conditions upon offenders, including restrictions on visiting particular locations or geographical areas where the victim may be. This is a new mechanism. It is established to recognise the ongoing effects of violent offences on those victims. Fair and anxiety about unwanted contact is a very, very real factor for many of those victims. It can impair their recovery and their pathway back to a free and normal life after having become the victim of serious crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAs a Government we want to ensure that all victims can be protected from unwanted contact with the person who has offended against them and can get back to enjoying normal life. This bill establishes a mechanism to do exactly that. It introduces a non-contact order that will prohibit an offender from having any form of contact with a victim, and it may also prohibit the offender from entering any specified area or from living or working in that specified area. The District Court is able to impose any conditions or directions in relation to any prohibition that it considers reasonably necessary in those circumstances. I, for one, think that is a good thing. An application for a non-contact order, it is important to note, cannot be made by a victim if there is already in existence a protection order against the offender under the Domestic Violence Act 1995. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn summary, this is a good piece of legislation brought to the House by a very capable and proactive Minister who is doing a terrific job on behalf of the victims of violent crime in our society. I commend the bill absolutely to the House. I will watch with interest its progress through the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002284c6817c58a34ea1898220bfd1b87fb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c6817c58a34ea1898220bfd1b87fb6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I am rather sad that this legislation, the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill, was promoted in the way it just has been by Government members, because this bill does not do what do the member Scott Simpson actually said. The purpose statement is absolutely supported on this side of the House. It states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to reduce the likelihood of a victim of a violent offence coming into contact with the offender subsequent to the offender\u2019s release from prison in any case where that contact would be detrimental to the victim. (2) To achieve this purpose, the Act empowers the court, on the application of a victim,\u201D\u2014and that is something we have an issue with: on the application of a victim\u2014\u201Cto make a non-contact order prohibiting the offender from having any form of contact with the victim.\u201D What we have just heard from the member is the suggestion that this is going to resolve something that should have been resolved a very long time ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn fact, let me quote from the regulatory impact statement, which, I have to say, is dated 12 September 2012. So this particular regulatory impact statement is nearly a year old. So what has taken the Government so long to address this issue if it is so imperative in terms of resolving the problem? Let me just read to the House why the review of the law was ordered: \u201CIn response to an incident in late 2011, where an offender who had served a prison sentence for rape moved into a property next door to his victim, the Minister of Justice requested a review of the existing orders and options available to protect victims in similar situations.\u201D The bill we have before us will not protect that victim and would not have protected that victim if it had been in place at the time. Let me just read why. Clause 5 of the bill states: \u201CIn this Act, violent offender or offender, in relation to a victim, means a person who at any time\u2014(a) has been convicted of a violent offence that affected the victim; and (b) has been sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 5 years or more in respect of that offence.\u201D That rapist was sentenced to 4 years\u2019 imprisonment. So the very case that gave rise to this Government\u2019s sudden concern about this particular matter is not addressed by the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EPerhaps the next speaker from the National Party could explain why the very case that actually sparked off the review has lead to a bill that would not address that case. Perhaps that would be something that they could begin with. I am absolutely committed to ensuring that we have a legal framework that is able to address these issues. That is why I have been such a major supporter of the regulatory impact analysis process. What we have to do is we have to learn in this House how to actually state what the problem is and what the objective is, then we have to set out a range of options about how we might achieve that objective, and work through each one of those. That is what the Ministry of Justice did for this. But does anyone know whom the Ministry of Justice consulted with in relation to this particular matter? The consultation it did in order to progress this important issue was with three community law centres, two victims\u2019 representatives, and the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs. Actually, it received only four responses\u2014two in support and two opposed. How on earth is that a quality regulatory impact analysis? That is nonsense. That is about coming to a conclusion and then finding a post-facto justification for the decision that the Government has already made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis was written on 12 September 2012. Do not tell me that there could not have been a much broader engagement with the victims\u2019 rights organisations and with others about what would be the most sensible approach. Why are we requiring the victims of crime to actually themselves go through this process? One of the recommendations was to amend the Parole Act to allow for an indefinite non-contact residential parole condition. What was wrong with that option? That would have put the onus on the State to protect the interests of victims, and not put it back to the victim to go to the District Court and be subject to a legal aid assessment. Why on earth was this option not put up as the top priority? Oh, I know why: \u201CThis option is likely to result in significant cost increases to the Department of Corrections over time.\u201D That is the only reason that this one is ruled out. So I think that people on that side of the House should think very carefully about the way that they are presenting these. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to make a comment in response to the suggestion that the rights of the perpetrators of these offences are somehow more important than the victims. So let me just read from the regulatory impact statement. It said there was a problem with the proposal of the Harassment Act being extended because \u201C\u2026 it relies on judicial discretion to determine what is necessary to reduce the likelihood of unwanted contact in each case. A risk is that this will vary depending on the circumstances in each case and some victims may not consider the order offers them adequate protection. This risk could be mitigated by conditions applicable to their situation being imposed. For example, in a small town where the victim and offender have support networks and live near each other a judge may consider that making the offender move out of town is an unjustified limitation on their rights. In this situation the conditions imposed would be designed to help the victim feel safer by preventing contact between the offender and victim wherever possible e.g. curfew, specific prohibition from visiting certain place(s) unaccompanied. In addition, to comply with the condition the offender would have to be aware of the victim\u2019s location, which could increase the fear and anxiety a victim has in regard to the offender.\u201D So that issue was raised by the Ministry of Justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI just want to tell a story about a conversation I had. When I first arrived here in Parliament, I was an associate spokesperson on justice and we made a decision to travel around all the different prisons in order to get a real sense of the whole of the justice system. I recall a conversation that I had with a prison officer back then. He described what has actually become the process of restorative justice, but it was initiated by the victim of a terrible rape. The two rapists, who were completing their sentences, were about to go home to small-town New Zealand. So stop thinking about victims as just being in large cities or towns where people can have freedom of movement. In a small town, this is very real. So this is a real story. This woman approached the prison and said she wanted to meet the rapists before they returned to her small home town. The prison service was not used to this, and it was very concerned about what that might mean. So after much discussion, it arranged for the meeting to occur. The real reason that it agreed to it was her motive in meeting with the offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe trouble was that they had pleaded not guilty. Coming back to that home town meant that the town was divided. Half of the town believed her and half of it believed the offenders. Half of the people in her town believed that she had made up the story of being raped, and she wanted to confront the offenders before they came home and re-entered that whole victimisation process, where she was a victim of half of the town\u2019s opinion. She sat there in that room with them\u2014and this was reported to me by the guy who observed this happening\u2014and she looked at them and said: \u201CYou\u2019re coming home. You must tell the truth. You\u2019ve served your time. Tell the truth now.\u201D And they admitted for the first time that they had raped her. That, to me, is much more meaningful, much more real, and much more beneficial to the whole of society than anything that this bill will ever do. How dare the Government put it back on the victim to sort this out. Why does the State not play its role and protect the victim? It could do that with an amendment to the parole legislation. I believe that that is what the Law and Order Committee has got to seriously look at in considering the future passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u002202225523a2b34ee39167fdfcd0ed769e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202225523a2b34ee39167fdfcd0ed769e\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. I have listened with interest to the contributions from the Labour Party speakers in particular. I think it is fair to say that in the Greens, we have come to a similar position. We will support this Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill as far as the Law and Order Committee, but our support is highly conditional. We have major concerns about this bill. If its purpose is the proposition that we need to offer a level of protection and a level of comfort to people who have been the victims of violent crime, then undoubtedly that is entirely a wholly tenable proposition and one that we can support. But in terms of the mechanism, the content, and the detail of this bill, we see so many fish-hooks in it that we do have serious concerns about whether those can be ironed out sufficiently. We will be supporting the bill going to the select committee. We look forward to the select committee process. Clearly we will engage with it, and we will re-evaluate our position and our support or otherwise at the conclusion of that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAs I said, the proposition that it is desirable to offer comfort to victims of crime and criminal offending is at the forefront of this legislation. It reminds me again, though, that we seem to see a number of bills that seek to incrementally add some level of service to victims of crime. This country desperately needs a clean sheet of paper, an overall review, a sort of zero sum game about victims\u2019 rights. How do we address victims\u2019 rights across the board? That is something that successive Governments seem reluctant to engage with. Again, it has been a Green position for a long time that we need to get cross-party agreement that in all sorts of ways we are not serving victims well in this country. We need to sit down and work out how we can do that, strategically and in an integrated way, and not relying on these amendments and additions and the meddling round the margins of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWhat will eventuate if this legislation is enacted is that a non-contact order will be created. As we learnt from the explanatory note, the non-contact order would prohibit an offender from having any form of contact with a victim. It may also prohibit the offender from entering any specified area or from living or working in any specified area. That is an extremely potent set of conditions to impose on a person\u2014to determine where they may or may not live, where they may or may not work, and what areas they may or may not enter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe consequences for a released person could be quite profound and actually counter-productive to their continued rehabilitation and reintegration back into society. A person might, for example, be denied the right to return to a small town, despite the fact that that may be the place they are most likely to have family or other support networks. It might be the place where they might find more secure tenure and accommodation, and the place where they might find a job and actually work to put their offending behind them, and become a contributing person in society. They may be denied that opportunity, and the best opportunity they have, to put their offending behind them and to get on with life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt just raises with me an interesting conundrum too: what would happen in the event that an offender is released from prison and goes to live in and is working in a particular place, and then a victim of that person\u2019s offending chooses to move into the area where they are established? It is kind of a reverse sensitivity thing. I am not sure that this bill has anything in it to accommodate that particular instance. I think it is one of the little details that we would need to reflect on and think about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESuccessful reintegration of a former offender demands that that person commit to changing their behaviour and that they honestly and truly put their offending behind them. But as Anne Opie pointed out in her excellent study, which she titled From Outlaw to Citizen: Making the Transition from Prison in New Zealand, there has to also be a social space. The community must also give a person an opportunity to redeem themselves, to demonstrate that they are actually willing and able to reform, and to become contributing members of society. Some of the provisions of this bill could actually be counter-productive in that sense and count against the possibility of that person having the opportunity to prove that they may once again be trusted members of society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI am concerned at the definition of \u201Coffender\u201D in this bill. It seems that a person who offends once will for ever carry that label. It is the Shylock dilemma\u2014you call me dog, therefore beware my bite. It almost sets up a situation for a self-fulfilling prophecy. Labelling somebody for ever as an offender could have a counter-productive outcome on their behaviours forthwith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear some of the Government spokespersons talking about the need to prevent victims from being further intimidated, and being persecuted and victimised again. In fact, the status quo protects people against those very things. If I seek to intimidate or persecute someone, the law will be on to me very quickly, and quite rightly so. In the status quo we have release conditions, parole conditions, restraining orders, protection orders, and bonds to keep the peace. These are all time limited. One of the concerns we have is that the proposed non-contact orders could be open-ended, and we see some difficulties with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are told that a problem with some of the existing protection orders is that many victims are unaware of the existing orders, that they may mistrust the court system, and that they are people without internet access, or with poor English skills. These existing provisions simply are not accessible to them. I ask the question: what is going to change if we simply create another form of protection order, a non-contact order? Is that going to be any more accessible to people who already are demonstrably not able to access the restraining orders, the protection orders, and all these other mechanisms that are in place? I would also echo Ms Dalziel\u2019s comments about the consultation. Yes, of course the consultation should include community law and should include Women\u2019s Refuge or, indeed, the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs, but it is an extraordinarily limited range of opinion. It was a very limited range of views that seems to have informed the drafting of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESo I simply ask what is going to change if we do not deal with some of those limitations, some of those barriers, to people finding the existing legal protections. What is the earthly point of creating yet another layer of theoretical protection, which actually may be no more accessible to those people than what is in place already? Again, in the regulatory impact statement we hear repeatedly this notion of a legislative gap, suggesting that there is a gap in the legislation. I would actually question that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWith reference to the bill itself, what would be the effects of a restraining order? The effects of a restraining order would include that an offender against whom an order is made would be prohibited from \u201Cdoing, or threatening to do, any of the following: (i) watching, loitering near, or preventing or hindering access to or from the protected victim\u2019s place of residence, business, employment, educational institution, or any other place \u2026\u201D. So for loitering, hindering somebody going about their daily business, or preventing them from accessing their home, their place of education, or their place of work, we have existing legal remedies for that. If I seek to simply hinder somebody from entering their place of work, of course I could be taken to task legally. Equally, an offender would be prohibited from \u201Cfollowing, stopping, or accosting the victim;\u201D and from \u201Cgiving offensive material to the victim, or leaving offensive material where it will be found by \u2026 [that person]\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAll of this is covered by existing law. I think this notion of a legislative gap is something we need to interrogate a bit more. Maybe we need to facilitate access to some of the existing protections for victims of crime, because, as I started out by saying, it is absolutely true that a person who has been violently assaulted, raped, or subjected to some form of violent abuse will understandably be extremely nervous, arguably, about the offender coming back into close contact in their community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EBut there is a flip side to this, and we need to look at that wider picture. It has been pointed out that in all likelihood this legislation would be found to be in breach of section 18 and section 26 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act in respect of freedom of movement and in respect of double jeopardy. Are we going to for ever punish a person who may have done their time and rehabilitated themselves? Violent offending sometimes is serial, but often they are one-off events\u2014somebody gets to a point in their life, they respond violently, commit an unacceptable act, pay the punishment, and pay for the crime. Ought we continue to punish them with a lifelong punishment, potentially, for something they have done and which they may wish to put behind them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESo to where I began\u2014as I say, we do support the purpose of this bill. We need to do more to secure victims\u2019 rights, and for that reason we will be supporting this legislation, but we will be asking some very difficult questions. We will be seeking to get a much more robust, a much better-balanced, and a much fairer piece of legislation, in order to look for a mechanism that will serve victims without necessarily imposing damage on others. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u002228c6ef955abc47da953106074c9cbaca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228c6ef955abc47da953106074c9cbaca\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Assistant Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238920169d0a54b21b639358a63d0c5a3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana and meitaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c15cd64c2d104ec4a8352791146d4c86\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki maata, Mr Assistant Speaker. I rise to take a call on the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill in its first reading. I am concerned about the member David Clendon because what I continue to hear, what we continue to hear, but what New Zealanders need to know and understand, is that the Greens are continually looking at, and focusing on, the rehabilitation and the rights of the offenders as opposed to those of the victims. The National Party is focused on ensuring that balancing the rights and responsibilities for the victims is clearly paramount for us. What we have heard continually from the Greens\u2014in particular, Mr Clendon\u2014is about rehabilitation. We have no problem with that. In fact, the honourable Minister of Corrections, the Hon Anne Tolley, has actually sought out a regime of rehabilitation that is proving successful now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EHowever, this particular bill is dealing with serious offenders, and in this case it irks me\u2014and I think the rest of New Zealand should understand this\u2014that what the Greens are saying is that we should look at the rights of the offender, let us look at their freedom to move and to be able to rehabilitate themselves into those communities, which are the very communities in which they have caused harm and concern and where they have caused trauma and tragedy for family and for victims. In particular, as the honourable member Lianne Dalziel said, when we see victims of rape and of crime and offending of a sexual nature, it appals everyone\u2014it appals everyone. But what continues to, I suppose, offend some of us here is that the Greens continue to say that the rights of the offenders should be put forward ahead of the rights of the victims. That is not what we are about; we are about ensuring that this bill ensures that the rights of the victims are upheld. It is unacceptable to have a situation where a victim of serious crime may have unwanted contact with an attacker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EIn reading the regulatory impact statement, there was some comment by the honourable member Lianne Dalziel about three community law centres and the consultation that was had with two victims\u2019 representatives and the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs. Again, the intent is that this is a very focused piece of legislation in a suite of other forms of legislation that this Government is undertaking. It is focused, in particular, on victims of violent sexual crime\u2014that is here. Therefore, it was important that we go particularly to those who have specialty experience and knowledge around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that the respondents were not totally in agreement. However, what they were in agreement on is that the status quo is not adequate\u2014hence the reason for the change. In fact, arguments against introducing a new regime and a new order included that it would breach a person\u2019s right to freedom. However, according to the regulatory impact statement: \u201CTwo responders indicated clear support for the introduction of a new order, stating that it would provide victims with an element of certainty, and may help to reduce the levels of anxiety victims experience when their offender is released.\u201D This is clear evidence. The fact is that the transition of this bill to its first reading and to the Law and Order Committee absolutely follows the process where submissions can be heard in a wider form of being able to be informed about how we can transform this bill. But I make it very clear from this side that we are very clear that this bill ensures that victims can no longer feel intimidated by an offender moving into their local area, near their home or their workplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EFinally, I just want to say that when people talk about the context of what we are doing, this is not a lazy piece of legislation. This is not legislation that is taken lightly at all. In fact, in the suite of things, can I also state the fact that this is what is happening right up and down the country. We are seeing that New Zealand crime rates are the lowest on record. The fiscal year crime statistics released today show that recorded crime is continuing to drop, with a 5.2 percent decrease on the previous year. Deputy Police Commissioner Viv Rickard\u2019s comments were that \u201CThese figures indicate that New Zealand is becoming a safer place to live. They will act as further motivation to keep our focus firmly on preventing crime before it happens.\u201D That is the best form of rehabilitation that we are taking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EHowever, in saying that, we do see its importance because sexual assaults and related offences have increased by 3.6 percent. Sexual offending is known to be significantly under-reported, so it is difficult to know to what extent this increase is a result of increased reporting rather than increased offending. Hence, understanding this is the reason why this bill going through its first reading and then going to the select committee so that it can hear submissions is absolutely important. It is timely. The bill is not lazy; it is intentional. It balances the rights of victims. I commend this bill in its first reading and to go to the select committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u002282babc469ef9484e927ceb60c5368088\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282babc469ef9484e927ceb60c5368088\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will support the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill going to the Law and Order Committee, with the hope and expectation that, with amendment, we will be able to continue to support it thereafter. The bill would enable a victim of a violent crime, or a close family member if the victim has died, to obtain a non-contact order against an offender where the offender has been convicted and sentenced to imprisonment for 5 years or more. Fear and anxiety about unwanted contact with the offender can be as bad as the offence itself. A fundamental duty of the State is to protect victims, and we think that this bill is very much overdue. In fact, the Government has been rather slothful in progressing it to date. New Zealand First wishes to assist its passage through the House as expeditiously as is practicable. I am unable, however, to agree with the Greens that the existing protections are adequate. Yes, there are existing ways in which people can get these protections, but they are not easy to use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThis bill, I think, is needed, but I have a number of suggestions to make so that the bill might be as effective as possible. The first concerns clause 5, which defines a violent offender as a person who \u201Chas been convicted of a violent offence that affected the victim; and (b) has been sentenced to a term of imprisonment for 5 years or more\u201D. That definition is quite narrow, and I suggest that it should be widened. Instead of requiring sentencing to a period of 5 years or more, I suggest that it would be more appropriate instead to require only sentencing for an offence punishable by 5 years of imprisonment or more. That would broaden the scope of the legislation to capture offenders whose sentences are fewer than 5 years but who had committed an offence serious enough to enable a court to sentence them to 5 years or more. After all, if the offence was so serious as to attract imprisonment at all, then the victim should be able to use this new law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EAnother issue concerns clause 7, which provides that a victim may apply to a district court for a non-contact order in respect of a violent offender and that an application may be made at any time after the offender is released from imprisonment. The requirement that an application must be made after the release of an offender from prison is, I think, too late. The victim should be able to apply for the order at any time after the conviction so that the court can make an order to have effect immediately as from the date of release. My concern is that there is likely to be a significant delay between the victim learning of the offender\u2019s release and the making of an order and its service upon the offender. That would potentially be a period of high risk for the victim, and this issue needs to be addressed by the select committee. Another point for its consideration would be the meaning of the term \u201Crelease from prison\u201D. Does this include release on parole? If not, then the victim may become subject to risk and may have to rely only on parole conditions rather than this new law, so let us have a look at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI also have concerns about clause 9(1), which says: \u201CThe court may make a non-contact order if it is satisfied that\u2014(a) there are ongoing effects of the offending for the victim;\u201D. Why does the court have to be satisfied that there are ongoing effects of the offending? What will the victim have to prove to satisfy that test? I do not think that the effects of the offending are really the issue here. It would be better for the subclause to require only, for example, that the victim reasonably believes that he or she may be subjected to unwanted contact by the offender. That is what the issue really is for the victim. So that is what the subclause should use as the test. Otherwise, it would be satisfactory to delete this test and this subclause altogether, because the other requirements in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) are sufficient by themselves with the words \u201Cability to deal with those effects\u201D being deleted consequentially from subclause (1)(b). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI move on to clause 11. This clause sets out the effect of a non-contact order. Such an order prohibits the offender against whom it is made from having any form of contact with the victim. In addition, the court may prohibit the offender from entering, living in, or working in a specified area. The only concern I have with this clause is that subclause (1)(c) should be qualified by the addition of an exception as to entry that is incidental to, and necessary for, the purposes of the offender\u2019s employment. I would also like the select committee to look at whether it is desirable to require, as part of clause 11, that the court is to specify an area only as large as is necessary to enable the offender and the victim to avoid contact with each other. Although we need to make the order effective, we should also see that it does not unnecessarily cause problems for the offender in obtaining or maintaining their employment and carrying out his or her duties of employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EFinally, I come to clause 15. This provides for a non-contact order to be discharged by the court if it thinks fit on the application of the victim or of the offender against whom the order is made. I suggest that the select committee look at whether the court should be required, in this clause, in considering whether a discharge of the order should be granted, to consider some specified matters, such as the record of the offender in complying with the order; the behaviour of the victim, which may itself justify discharge; and, obviously, the places where the victim and the offender live permanently. If one lives in Australia and the other lives in New Zealand, then I would expect that to be an important factor in deciding whether to grant the discharge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EAs I have said, New Zealand First does want this legislation. We do think it is necessary. We do not think that existing laws are adequate to protect victims who have justifiable fears in relation to ongoing contact with an offender. So New Zealand First wishes to vote for this legislation not only to be referred to the select committee but also, hopefully, thereafter as well, provided that we can get the most effective law possible to protect victims from those ongoing risks resulting from unwanted contact by the offender. But, as I have said, there are a number of ways in which the bill might be improved that we wish to discuss, and I hope that other parties and the Government in particular are willing to look at amendments for those purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002255a7ac1996874a63a4e60f505de4cbce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255a7ac1996874a63a4e60f505de4cbce\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and take a call on the first reading of the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill. It is also a pleasure to follow what I think have been two pretty considered contributions\u2014one from the New Zealand First member Denis O\u2019Rourke and one from the Green member David Clendon\u2014from opposite ends of the spectrum. The Green contribution I was somewhat disappointed with, because when we hear comments to the effect that this bill contains a potent set of conditions to impose on a person, he is focused totally on the offender. And when he thinks that the status quo is OK and talks about double jeopardy and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act in terms of the offender, I think that actually his attention is in the wrong area. We are focused on the victims. It is the victims who are the innocent ones in this situation, and we are focused on them. I also think that the New Zealand First contribution was pretty thoughtful and I guess my comment on that is that the whole purpose of having the bill go to the select committee is so that those issues can be teased out, discussed, and decided upon at the select committee consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn a nutshell, the bill provides for a non-contact order that prohibits an offender from any form of contact with a victim and can impose conditions. Whether those conditions are tight enough or not tight enough, again, is a matter for the select committee. We have heard contributions from Labour members who talked about whether the threshold of 5 years\u2019 imprisonment for the offender is actually the right threshold. Maybe it is too high. I do not know the answer to that, but, again, I am sure that that will be an issue that will be fully traversed at the select committee. But I have to say that if we really want to sum it up, it is totally unacceptable to have a situation where a victim of a serious crime may have unwanted contact with their attacker. That is the bottom line, because the priority has to be the victim, not the offender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill is a good bill. It is not the only bill, of course. It is part of a programme, it is part of a suite, of measures. Actually, I think that, as a party on law and order, our record on crime and on victims is pretty good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bac359d619e1492c8191db92520a83eb\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: Outstanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7b5c9fe6b9c4a25b1a949b2805a4620\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201COutstanding.\u201D says Dr Calder\u2014outstanding. If we traverse that just momentarily, we introduced a $50 victims\u2019 offender levy. Remember that at the time the Labour members said that it was a gimmick\u2014a gimmick\u2014and that it would not work. A total gimmick\u2014\u201Ca bizarre piece of gimmickry\u201D is what they said. Well, actually, the amount collected from that is $4.4 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d00774e206ca49678188ff673a3c0f0d\u0022\u003EScott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e61d9fb690405bbf89d1529345ecbb\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is $4.4 million. That has been collected from the $50 offender levy. If we look at some of the programmes that have benefited from that, we have got the safe@home programme for the women and families who are at the highest risk of serious injury or death. We have got a discretionary grant to assist families of homicide victims. We have got funding for homicide support coordinators. Our record on this is outstanding, but that is not all. We have created 13 new services and entitlements for victims. We have also increased restorative justice. We have expanded the restorative justice services. They receive an extra $4.4 million. That actually means a total of an extra 2,400 conferences. In addition to that, we now have police safety orders to help prevent domestic violence. I understand that since their introduction there have been over 27,000 of these orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ENational is the party for law and order. National is the party that is focused on victims. This bill is a good bill. It is part of that suite of measures, and I certainly look forward to receiving the select committee report once it has come out after proper consultation and discussion. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e528adb2750b40e8ba68fdfa585d10a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e528adb2750b40e8ba68fdfa585d10a5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will be supporting the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill, but I have got to say that we do so with some serious reservations. Kate Wilkinson touched on one of them, and that was the issue of the threshold. When I read the regulatory impact statement, I read that this bill was motivated by the case of a young woman in Invercargill who found that the person who had been convicted of her rape had moved in next door to her. Everybody in this House would understand the absolute trauma that a rape victim would suffer confronting, each day, the person who had been responsible for her rape, and there was nothing that could be done in that case, apparently. I thought, well, fair enough. The Government has admitted it has got a gap in its system and it has moved to address it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThen I went back and read the Southland Times, and what did the Southland Times say about the person who was convicted of the rape? The Southland Times said that that person was sentenced to 4 years for the rape. Hang on, in this bill it says that this protection applies only if you have been sentenced to more than 5 years. So the very case that provoked this legislation would exclude the victim that the Associate Minister of Justice was crying crocodile tears about and saying that there was no legislation to help her. Minister, there is still no legislation that would help her in that case. So well should Kate Wilkinson come into the House and say that the threshold level might be too high\u2014absolutely. Victim Support, the Shine organisation\u2014Jane Drumm, the person who is the chief executive of that organisation and who worked in this field for a long time, asked why the hell the Government was bringing in legislation that would deny the protection to so many of the people who are victims of the crime that it claims the legislation is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI do not want to respond to Kate Wilkinson\u2019s long litany of self-praise for what the Government has done by saying that the Government has done everything wrong. You know, all Governments, I hope, have a focus on the rights of victims and on protecting the rights of victims. But I have got to say that there are some much more fundamental things that need to be done in this area than what this scrappy little piece of legislation provides. I read, Kate Wilkinson and Chester Borrows, in the regulatory impact statement that this bill will apply to 10 cases\u201410 cases\u2014a year. Well, look, for each of those cases that might be important; I am not knocking it solely on that basis. But what I am saying is do not come into the House full of self-praise about a piece of legislation that will help 10 victims when there are thousands of victims out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to go back to what Alfred Ngaro said in his speech on this bill. He said: \u201CWe\u2019re bringing down the crime rates.\u201D Well, I did a little bit of research. Members might be interested to know that in 2009 the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs reported on the whole issue of women who suffer from sexual violation. What it said about that was that only 9 percent, or less than one in 10, of all sexual offences were ever reported to the police\u20149 percent. Only 9 percent of all of those dreadful crimes against women were reported to the police, but it does not even end there. Of the 9 percent that were reported and taken to the police, only 13 percent of those actually resulted in a conviction. So we are talking, probably, about the four in 100 victims of sexual violation who achieve justice under our current system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIf the Minister of Justice was really serious about the question of sexual violation of women and about how they can achieve justice and how they can be helped to recover from that, she might like to consider a couple of things, and I say this in all genuineness because these are things that we need to consider. The first thing is to ask whether our adversarial system is helpful for the hearing of cases of sexual violation and sexual assault. I would put it to the House that most women who have been traumatised by sexual violation would not want to be re-traumatised by having an adversarial system where their word is thrown into doubt. When women were asked why they did not report, they said that they did not want to suffer the trauma of sexual violation only to go to court and be disbelieved as to whether they were making it up, because in most of these instances there is no independent witness. I am not saying that people will never falsely report rape. Unfortunately\u2014tragically\u2014that happens. But in the vast majority of cases, the women who have suffered that trauma will not see satisfaction through our adversarial system; they will not be believed because they do not have independent witnesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224061c8aa3dbf4fc5a0f96720532066ba\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: And why would they put up with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238dcf22dcc6f4905a2f4e393da3d5cad\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: So why would they go through that, as my colleague has just said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to talk about restorative justice, because Kate Wilkinson said that more money has gone into restorative justice, and I truly welcome that. When, as the Minister of Justice, I talked to a group of rape survivors, they said to me: \u201CYou know, it\u2019s not about wanting to see the offender jailed for a long period of time.\u201D, and I was quite astounded by this. Many times these were people who were suffering from sexual violation by strangers\u2014sometimes the so-called date rape\u2014but it was not about revenge. The main thing they wanted was an admission by the offender that he had offended against them. Surely, that is not too much to ask. And they wanted to see remorse from the offender. Some of them said to me, and I was astounded by this\u2014and by their personal generosity, having been through that trauma\u2014\u201CYou know, we don\u2019t want to see that person locked up for 14 years in prison. We do want to see their admission publicly that they have wronged me, and we do want to see that they are remorseful about what they\u2019ve done.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo, you know, we are dealing with a piece of legislation in the House today that is about 10 of the thousands of people who are subject to sexual assault and violation, and maybe, Minister, we should be looking at something more fundamental than that, about how we can change the nature of the wider system to help prevent this sort of abuse and to deal with it in the majority of the cases, not 5 percent of the cases. I say that not judgmentally of the Government but as a genuine expression of the problem that we have got and the failure of the system to address that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to come back to what is in the bill. The need for this bill is apparently because there was a person who was the victim in this case, where the rapist moved in next door and changed the nature of her life, which made it far harder for her to recover from the trauma she had originally suffered. A protection order does not help the victim in this case because she was not the subject of domestic violence. A restraining order would not help in this case because she was not the subject of further direct harassment by the offender. So there is a gap. I accept there is a gap in the system, and I think the victim does have to come first. I listened carefully to David Clendon and I think he was making some reasonable points in a reasonable way, but the victim must always be put first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat we have got is a bill that we have real problems with, which I want to address in the Law and Order Committee. The threshold is too high. Five years would not have helped the victim that this legislation is purportedly about and would not have helped hundreds of other victims who are automatically excluded. I ask the Government where this figure came from. Was it just arbitrarily plucked out of the air, or was it based on cost? That is what I really fear\u2014\u201CWell, if we limit it to 10, it won\u2019t cost us much.\u201D I am sorry, but if the victims come first, cost is the secondary consideration. Secondly, there is a real concern about the time between the release of the offender and the acceptance of a non-contact order application. There should be the ability to apply for non-contact orders before the release of the offender, so that the victim is not suffering from a long period of trauma until the application is heard. That is a change that I think we should look at as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThirdly, I think Andrew Little is right. This places the burden on the victim both to take the initiative to seek the order and also to pay for it. If we are trying to relieve the pressures on victims, do not put the costs on victims for what they are rightly entitled to. That is the third change we need to make. The fourth change is the limited application, which I mentioned before. There are 250 offenders of serious violent and sexual offences released a year, and this will help just 10 victims. So, OK, maybe there is a good intent here, but it does not make much difference. I think the select committee has got a lot of work to do if we are truly to put the interests of victims first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u00226d5878ea1c0648d1822776e2c6ce9aef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d5878ea1c0648d1822776e2c6ce9aef\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a call on the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill in its first reading in the House today. It is always great to see the House getting behind a bill as the House has today, and to see a bill that has cross-party support\u2014at least for its first reading. This bill is about victims, and victims should always come first, over offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI listened to what David Clendon said. I think he was measured, but I did not agree with everything he said. I think that the balance has to go to victims, over offenders, and that victims\u2019 rights, safety, and security must come first. I think that most of the debate today has been measured. I think there have been some really good strong points that should be debated and teased out in the Law and Order Committee. The points around when you can apply for an order, I think, are a really important issue. We do not want victims to have to relive the crime again 5 years later when the offender gets released. The point about the length of time of a conviction has been a really good point as well today. Also, in terms of getting the balance right between victims and offenders, as much as I think it should always be on the side of victims, I think it is good to have that debate as well during the select committee process. That is what it is for\u2014to tease out all the issues that people have concerns about in the debating chamber today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI cannot imagine for a moment what it is like to be a victim of a serious violent offence or a sexual crime. I have got no idea how a victim moves forward from that or what they go through when it happens to them, or even what their family faces when something like that has happened, or the time it takes to recover. I could not even imagine what it would be like to be that victim, with the offender loitering around my front fence. I cannot imagine meeting that person in the supermarket. I just could not imagine what that would be like. So I think this bill is very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI think this new mechanism is very important. It allows victims to obtain a non-contact order, and that puts another tool in the toolbox for victims to actually be able to move forward with their lives and to put some of this behind them. We have had debate today about how communities can be very small and what you do when you have got a victim and an offender in the same small community and they have to live together. How does that work? I hope that submitters who are in that scenario come to the select committee and tell us what types of tools we need to make this legislation even stronger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI think that this bill is just one of many that this Government has put forward to strengthen victims in New Zealand, where they stand, what they face, and how we can help them. But I actually think our focus\u2014and it is our focus, as a Government\u2014should be on the prevention of crime, because with prevention of crime we have fewer offenders and we have fewer victims. That is where we are growing and it is where our outcomes are coming\u2014with the reduction of crime in New Zealand. I think this is a fantastic bill, and I cannot wait to hear the debate in the select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9752651831644c882daa9d3b77ff1a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9752651831644c882daa9d3b77ff1a0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u00227f93b0939ad8493eb25c74fd8b5d38d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f93b0939ad8493eb25c74fd8b5d38d7\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Thank you very much. It is my pleasure to speak on the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill. I really want to make just a couple of really clear points. For me, central to this piece of legislation, picking up on what my colleague Katrina Shanks has just said, is, really, the question that if you commit a heinous crime such as rape, should that for ever affect your rights to live in the same community as your victim. For me, it is central to this conversation and debate that we are engaged in that that is the question to be asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI am not going to labour on about what prompted this and the fact that there have been some flaws in the drafting of this bill. What I really want to focus on is the whole issue about the victim needing to initiate a non-contact order. If we truly want to support victims in their rehabilitation, they should not have to be initiating non-contact orders. There is a current flaw in our criminal justice system. We have protection orders and restraining orders, but they are all about relationships that people have and victims have with their offenders. There is an anomaly in the legislation because we are talking in this instance about victims who have no relationship with the offender other than having been raped by them. So it would seem to me that to create a piece of legislation that wants to protect victims but then has victims initiate the non-contact order themselves is actually the biggest flaw in the whole design of the legislation, as it is currently worded. So the victim has to seek that non-contact order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI note the individualism of that measure. Knowing some people who are involved in ACC through its sensitive claims unit, and the whole process of women who have been through such a trauma, trying to get on with their lives, I think that anybody who had intimate experience of that process would not be making victims apply for a non-contact order. What I hope this piece of legislation would ensure is that the criminal justice system, in fact, puts at its heart any response of people in that situation, where there is such a gap, and looks after the interests of victims in those particular circumstances. So there is an opportunity\u2014because this bill will be referred to the Law and Order Committee, and Labour supports that\u2014for other mechanisms to be looked at in terms of this gap in the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EWe would advocate that amendments to the Parole Act should take into consideration a systemic response, and that amendments to the Harassment Act ensure that whatever protection orders and restraining orders there are, they actually ensure victims, in this particular circumstance, are taken care of. Obviously for us, we want all of this done and that is why the parole process provides the best mechanism for these things to be in place before the person is released from jail. Essentially, what this piece of legislation does is allow a victim, after the release of the person who has perpetrated a heinous crime on them, such as rape, an opportunity to apply for a non-contact order. So I am hopeful that throughout this entire process we will keep central to this whole discussion about our response as a criminal justice system, as a community, and as legislators, the question of how we can best meet the needs of victims who do not qualify for the current mechanisms we have, to ensure that they never have to engage with the perpetrator of a crime against them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EI am hopeful that there is a lot of goodwill in the House to make sure that this piece of legislation will work to the fullest for victims and that we look at a community response to this, not an individualistic response of making victims themselves be responsible for ensuring that they live in a safe, secure environment, where their needs are central. Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00221b5cae1827bf406386a4f3e8e5dcc654\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b5cae1827bf406386a4f3e8e5dcc654\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise and offer the Greens\u2019 support for the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill at this stage, to enable this conversation to happen. I have been interested in the debate so far today. I think it has been constructive. I would like to acknowledge, first of all, the case that triggered the introduction of this bill, the appalling and quite heart-wrenching situation for a woman in Invercargill whose rapist moved in next door. That highlighted for us several areas for legislative review and policy and funding change. This woman actually had an indefinite protection order in place, apparently, but it did not prevent her abuser from moving in next door. The police had been for a chat and suggested he move, but stated that they could not do anything else unless he breached the order and crossed that line. In this situation, his friends had been threatening and harassing her as well, but this did not constitute a breach either. It is quite strange that in the case that has triggered the introduction of this bill, this bill will actually do nothing to solve that actual situation, because the perpetrator in that instance had been sentenced for a crime for only 4 years, which does not reach the threshold required in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe Greens have several concerns related to this bill that we are keen to explore through the select committee process, while acknowledging that there is a real problem at the moment. The concerns we have, as have been raised by Labour, are the requirement for the victim to apply for and pay for the order, rather than the State taking responsibility for the safety of victims; the situation for people in small towns where it may not be so easy to be able to define their place of living in the same way; and also the possibility that in a larger city this may create a perverse result of enabling abusers to have free rein of a city outside one specific area, and the potential that this may actually lock victims in to quite a prescribed safety zone. That may be, I think, quite a perverse result if it creates this safety zone for victims that they then become locked in to. That is certainly not something that we would want to see happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe are very keen to have the select committee process and to have victims and their advocates present to the Law and Order Committee to ensure that we are adequately informed on these issues. But I do want to speak now to some of the wider issues. There has been a lot of discussion around the importance of focusing on victims and the terrible situation of victims being so closely engaged with their abuser. I want to remind this House of what I believe is a completely tragic reality. Only one in 100 victims gets justice in this country. Research shows us that only seven victims out of 100 report the abuse. So we know that at the moment, because of this situation and the lack of action that has been taken around sexual abuse, most victims are on a regular basis, if not a daily basis, having to interact with their abusers because of the failure of this House and this system to actually provide them with a system where they can access justice. Of those seven out of 100 cases that are reported, only three go to court and only one results in a conviction. That is appalling\u2014one in 100 victims in this country accesses justice. Those of that one in 100 whose offender is sentenced to over 5 years will now be able to access this protection. That is not a victim focus. Any pretence that it is is actually covering up what I believe is a massive injustice in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also would like to just speak to the fact that those who have been convicted\u2014Kim McGregor from the Rape Prevention Education network has noted numerous instances\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e784dca5b0ab4ce7a7f25e7ee2a9137f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e784dca5b0ab4ce7a7f25e7ee2a9137f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. Her time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022 data-id=\u002280f8e54dd980436382cc8ed27a3a9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280f8e54dd980436382cc8ed27a3a9cbf\u0022\u003EPAUL FOSTER-BELL (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to be able to speak in support of the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill in this first reading debate. As other members have canvassed, this bill brings in a much-needed and welcome measure by creating a new kind of restraining order that will protect victims of serious violent or sexual crimes from unwanted contact with their attackers. I think it is a very positive thing that both sides of the House are supporting this bill going to the Law and Order Committee. It is also positive that the debate this morning has been a balanced, measured, and constructive one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders have an absolute right to feel safe in their homes as they enjoy life in any of the diverse and thriving communities that make up our great country. I would say to the members Ms Logie and Mr Clendon, who have spoken about the difficulty of applying this to small towns in New Zealand, that that right to feel safe in your home and your community applies to every community in New Zealand equally, be they in the big cities, the main centres, the provincial towns, small villages, or rural hamlets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EI am proud to be a member of a National team that is building a safer New Zealand. This bill is one small part of a comprehensive programme of reform that is designed to protect our communities, to prevent crime, and to put victims first. These measures are having real effect. We see crime rates now at a generational low\u2014a once-in-30-years low\u2014so I am very pleased to see this bill adding further to that progress that we are making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EThis bill establishes a clear and practical process to enable any victim of a violent crime\u2014and, specifically, victims of offences of a sexual nature\u2014to obtain a non-contact order against the person who attacked them. Such an order will be available in any case where the perpetrator has been convicted and sentenced to imprisonment of 5 years or more. I actually have to acknowledge the contribution of the honourable member Denis O\u2019Rourke in querying whether that time frame is appropriate. I will certainly be going into the select committee hearings with an open mind on that issue and interested in hearing evidence on that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EThese non-contact orders will ban offenders from having any form of contact with a victim. This can be used to stop an offender from entering a specified area or from living or working in a particular place, and\u2014this is an issue that has not really been canvassed yet\u2014the District Court will be empowered to impose any reasonable conditions or directions that it considers necessary in the individual circumstances. I think that this level of common-sense flexibility is a very positive thing. Strong sanctions will exist where there is a breach of a non-contact order, with a maximum of up to 2 years\u2019 imprisonment for repeated breaches. Again, I think that this is a necessary measure, because without teeth any legislative measure does not have real impact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EI would like to congratulate the excellent Minister of Justice the Hon Judith Collins and her ministerial justice sector team. I look forward to considering the bill in more detail at the Justice and Electoral Committee, which is so ably chaired by my esteemed colleague Scott Simpson. I commend this bill for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022019517af6fb94b83995d827a14ae5508\u0022\u003EBorder Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f31ea41306940998f16aebb1f65d6c7\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022217438c5075a4aaf80e801ff8f7440f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022217438c5075a4aaf80e801ff8f7440f0\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Customs: I move, That the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to consider the bill. This is an omnibus bill, and it amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996 and the Biosecurity Act 1993. This bill makes important amendments to existing legislation, to underpin the implementation of the Trade Single Window component of the new $89 million Joint Border Management System. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Trade Single Window component of the system provides a single electronic gateway for industry to interact with Government agencies for its customs and biosecurity requirements. The Trade Single Window will promote more effective protection of New Zealand\u2019s border, facilitate a smoother flow of legitimate trade, and is consistent with the Government\u2019s priorities relating to the provision of more joined-up, online services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ERegarding the purpose of the bill, the bill contains three main categories of amendments that underpin the implementation of the Trade Single Window: registering users of the Joint Border Management System; providing information to, and receiving information from, the Trade Single Window; and consequential changes to offences. The bill also makes minor technical changes to the Customs and Excise Act 1996 to provide more clarity and to improve the effectiveness of the Act to meet Government policy goals for border management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ERegarding registering users of the border management system, the Customs and Excise Act 1996 requires that all goods imported or exported must be entered into the Customs Service computer system by individuals, being importers, exporters, or their agents who are registered users of the system. The Trade Single Window will provide for a wider range of border requirements. For example, registered users will be able to provide and receive information on the movement of their goods, streamlining supply chains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill amends several aspects of the Customs and Excise Act to ensure there is an appropriate registration mechanism for access to and use of the Joint Border Management System. The areas covered by the amendments include allowing companies to be registered users instead of individuals only. Specific grounds on which the Chief Executive of the Customs Service can refuse an application are included, allowing the chief executive to issue unique user identifiers for the Joint Border Management System that can be used by both the Customs Service and the Ministry for Primary Industries for border-related purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe provision of information to the Trade Single Window will be through the use of the World Customs Organization\u2019s new international data model for lodgment messages, supporting access for our exporters, and reducing compliance costs for industry. The new lodgment messages will include customs, biosecurity, and food safety - related information, enabling the Customs Service and the Ministry for Primary Industries to receive more accurate and current information to better identify and target potential risks to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESeveral amendments will assist in supporting how information is provided to the Trade Single Window. These amendments cover advance notices of arrival and departure for all goods and craft crossing our border, and inward and outward cargo reports, and establish a more effective and transparent transhipment process for the national movement of imported goods. Additionally, the bill amends the Customs and Excise Act to provide the Chief Executive of the Customs Service with the ability to prescribe customs rules that reflect other border-related requirements such as health, biosecurity, and marine safety. This will be done using a process agreed by the chief executives of those agencies. This process will promote clarity and consistency to industry and reduce the administrative burden of maintaining multiple, often disparate, requirements via agencies at the border. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere are consequential changes to offences in the bill. To enforce the amendments contained in the bill, some consequential changes to offence provisions are necessary. These amendments relate to the advance notice of the arrival of goods and craft, and the departure of goods and craft. The amendments are to cover such aspects as failing to comply with the new requirements and failing to update the Customs Service with the correct information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere are other minor technical amendments in the bill. The bill includes some minor technical changes to provide more clarity and improve the effectiveness of the Customs and Excise Act to meet Government policy goals. These amendments include updating the definition of motor spirits to reflect the 2012 changes to the excise and excise-equivalent duties table in the Act, but the amendment does not alter the type of fuel on which excise duty is collected; replacing the term \u201Crate of duty\u201D with \u201Camount of duty\u201D where goods are re-imported into New Zealand and a refund of duty has been claimed on the previous export; delegating the power from the Minister of Customs to the Chief Executive of the Customs Service to approved certain international organisations exempt from excise duty on alcohol and tobacco; and enabling regulations to be made that may prescribe the valuation method and value for an import consignment below which duty need not be collected by the Customs Service, known as de minimis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIn summary, the bill will help underpin the implementation of the Trade Single Window, which will deliver at least $450 million of benefits to our economy over the next 10 years. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd287eba421493b863d5e0456611c96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd287eba421493b863d5e0456611c96\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am pleased to make a contribution at this first reading of the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. We in the Labour Party are supporting this bill. At one level the bill is very non-controversial; it is actually quite constructive in a lot of ways. The actual genesis of the Joint Border Management System occurred when we were in Government, and I acknowledge a former Minister of Customs here, my colleague Nanaia Mahuta. The joint initiative, the collaborative work between agencies, to modernise and to improve the systems is what agencies should be doing all the time, particularly when we are talking about our borders. Our border management system is critical to our livelihood as a country, as we all know, and it does not take much to remind everybody here that we have challenges every day on our borders. Eighty billion dollars worth of goods are moved backwards and forwards into our country. We have over 10 million travellers who go to and from across our borders. We like to welcome our manuhiri\u2014those travellers\u2014but we also want to put up our p\u0101 defences for those things that are unwanted, whether it be persons or cargo or biosecurity incursions and threats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThis is, as I have mentioned, a non-controversial bill in one way. We want to improve our border processes and our border management system, but I think we also need to take a step up and look at the context of these new IT information systems and look at the disasters that have occurred in the past. I need only mention a word like \u201CINCIS\u201D and that sends a shudder through members opposite who may have been connected with the police in the 1990s. Obviously a more recent example is Novopay, which has entered into the lexicon as another absolute disaster in implementing new IT platforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at the Trade Single Window, this is a positive measure, we do support it, and we want to make sure that the implementation of this new system is a success. Our freight importers and exporters, and our cargo and logistics industries are reliant on being able to submit information and receive information from the relevant Government agencies involved on our border. So it is a welcome change that we have a live system now that they can have a single point of entry whereby they can do all their bits and pieces of messaging with their new systems to be able to actually get the business done. The Trade Single Window as part of this Joint Border Management System is a great improvement for our border management agencies and for managing and promoting the flows of commerce and trade across our borders. So we do support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EIf we look at the different players in the industry, I know that they have been very supportive and have worked closely with the relevant agencies on this. This is, as I have mentioned, a very big project hitting up to in excess of $80 million. That is actually a bit more than was originally budgeted for the project, but I think, given the importance of this new platform and these new tools that our exporters and importers and the whole industry are using, we want to do it right. There have been delays, but it is better that these systems are thoroughly tested and are thoroughly in conjunction with the industry to make sure that they do run smoothly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI recall from the briefing from the Minister at the estimates hearing before the select committee, which I sat in on, that the Minister mentioned that the two systems\u2014the former system, which I cannot quite remember off the top of my head, another acronym or similar type of name, will be running in parallel with the new\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89b7c87a5ca4fdda1ce34ca105d388f\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: CusMod.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a54239a36f04e5c8318c60a1beebfa2\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: CusMod\u2014that is it. The CusMod system will be running in parallel with the new Trade Single Window system for at least the next 18 months. Those users who still want to use the old system and feel safer under that can gradually migrate over or transition into the new Trade Single Window. The Minister has been very careful, I suppose, in the roll-out of this new platform. I suppose he needs only to look to his colleagues in terms of Novopay, and to the past and the huge disasters that have happened in the past, in order to want to make sure that this new technology platform is a success. The Minister acknowledged that if there was a failure in this new system, it would be catastrophic for us as a country, which is why we have to get it right. It would be catastrophic in terms of interruptions to trade, interruptions to imports and exports, but, most fundamentally, the impact that it would have on our international reputation. We have seen in recent days and weeks the impact of certain blunders happening within our relevant agencies. We need only to look at the Ministry for Primary Industries and the loads of containers of our meat that were sitting in China, unable to be processed. That was a huge faux pas on the part of officials, and, as we understand, it came down only to the incorrect filling out of a form\u2014not describing the name change from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry to the new superministry, the Ministry for Primary Industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThose sorts of blunders can have huge consequences for our exporters, for our primary sector, and for our farmers, and that flows right across our economy. We need to make sure that we have really good systems and that we are always looking to improve, modernise, and promote joint cooperation among the different agencies that are involved, because it is very complex. We also need to make sure that we have resourcing going into those agencies that can support these flash new tools\u2014the new Trade Single Window and joint border management types of systems. This is where I get to the point that you can have the flashest IT systems and technology, but if you do not have front-line investment in people who can fill out forms, or who can be proper lab technicians who can do tests that can identify particular bugs or potential threats, that will have huge consequences in terms of our international reputation and the potential well-being and standard of living of many of us here in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EWhat we do not want to see, but what we have seen under this Government, is a reduction in the budgets of front-line services for the likes of the Ministry for Primary Industries and the Customs Service, and a really big emphasis and focus on these new IT-type systems. As we have seen, fundamental, basic clerical mistakes\u2014as well as a dirty pipe in Fonterra and a technician who obviously was not thorough in terms of their analysis of the samples that were taken\u2014can have huge impacts across the whole economy. That is why we need to make sure we have a really good balance between the systems and the resourcing on our front line. Apart from that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00227fe53f2c90594d5bacc2c0d70086c2ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fe53f2c90594d5bacc2c0d70086c2ea\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to thank my colleague across the House Rino Tirikatene for supporting the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. I look forward to it coming to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, where submissions will be called for and the bill considered, processed, and returned to the House. There is one small thing I would like to correct in what my predecessor was saying. He said that the bill would facilitate the movement of his manuhiri back to New Zealand. I would just like to point out to him that this bill applies only to goods and will not be applying to his manuhiri. I understand that he was trying to fill his 10-minute allotted gap and that he did not have a lot to say or to offer to the House. That led him into a slightly murky area of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253eb1cd66da4eabab8d55911b9c0f33\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Be gracious, John.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21c62f89457409f91b3e804f39d584c\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: I will be gracious, yes. I just make the point, and I would just like to let him know that had he read the paperwork, he would realise that from the beginning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWhat is seriously important about this bill is that it is another strand of the rope that the Government is building to pull this economy forward, and to catch up with and surpass Australia. It is not just a matter of signing our trade agreements. Before our committee at the moment is the trade agreement with the third element of the Chinese infrastructure, Taiwan. That, as I have mentioned in the House before\u2014provided we can get it through our committee and into law before the end of this year\u2014will generate $45 million of savings to cherry farmers in, for example, Central Otago, and it will help apple growers in the Wairarapa and in the Hawke\u2019s Bay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBut there is no point in making gains in the trade area without at the same time straightening up our administration. This is what the ever hard-working Minister Williamson has been doing. He has a very good understanding of IT issues, and he is applying that in this area of the Government\u2019s administration. This legislation he has brought to the House will save exporters and importers $450 million over 10 years. That is money that is not being taken out of people\u2019s pockets for no particular purpose. That means that money stays in people\u2019s pockets, and it will add to economic activity in our economy. That is good for everybody. The Trade Single Window will lower traders\u2019 compliance costs\u2014admittedly, over time\u2014and it will help us build a much more productive and competitive economy, which is, of course, exactly the Government\u2019s priority over this term of office. It will help supply-chain efficiencies with a joint border management system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to raise is that this legislation will enable our industry to interface in a far more efficient way\u2014with one electronic gateway\u2014with Government agencies for its customs and biosecurity requirements. It will also plug us into the World Customs Organization, and doing that will give more effective protection of our borders and ensure a smoother flow of legitimate trade. As I said at the outset, there will be no impact on travel coming into or leaving New Zealand because the changes relate only to the importing and exporting of goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis is a very good piece of legislation. It has got broad support, I hope, across the House. I support it entirely, and I look forward to it coming to our committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2592061ea814841898b185e155502cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2592061ea814841898b185e155502cc\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the member over there, John Hayes, and with all due respect to him, if you ever wanted to get a classic Tory speech, then that is it. Obviously, the research unit has once again dragged out the template\u2014dragged out the template\u2014and given it him. I know that the member over there is far better than that speech, but it is a classic Tory speech: the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Here is the point. We support this piece of legislation. In fact, we developed the concept of one hub for information sharing. We did so on the basis of our border systems being more effective, but this National Government has come in and said: \u201COh, we want them to be more efficient, so we will focus on the $45 million that\u2019s going to be saved every year.\u201D Well, good luck to it. It has saved $26 million in the cost of the Ministry for Primary Industries too. We are now starting to see the value that is being destroyed from an ideologically driven Government that wants to drive down the investment, drive down the cost, and forget the value of what we are doing here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe support this bill and the concept of it. It is just about evolving technology. It is about sharing information, but being more effective. Efficiency is a great objective but it should not necessarily be the sole objective, particularly when it comes to the issue of border protection for trade coming in and out of this country, so as to ensure our reputation for outgoing goods or our biosecurity for incoming goods, the value of which we cannot calculate. We cannot calculate the lost value of our reputation through the latest debacle over meat and dairy exports. We will be a long time trying to calculate the cost of that, in the same way that if we let into this country any major biosecurity incursion, we do not know what that will do to this country. The Government might try to establish the cost of it, but the value of having proper border security and proper customs security is something difficult to calculate over the long term. The Government has worked out $45 million a year, in the same way that it could say that it saved $260 million over 10 years from driving efficiency in the Ministry for Primary Industries. Well, we are now starting to see the cost of that. Ask exporters of our food products what is going to be the lost value for them in the marketplace of the massive botch-up that we have seen over dairy and over meat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe point is that the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill that we are discussing here is a good objective and a good exercise, but if it is driven by just ideology and efficiency and not driven to give us a more effective system of border protection and protection of our country from unwanted goods, then I suggest that the Government has got it wrong. We have seen its consistent approach to that. The first Budget we had, in terms of border security, was a cut to biosecurity of $2 million, the loss of 48 front-line jobs, and a squeeze on a large number of other Government agencies. That is what the Government was doing to give efficiency, but at a big cost to effectiveness. We are starting to see that roll out. We have had Psa, we have had the large white butterfly, and we have had varroa. We have just recently seen that scorpions have been brought into this country. So, clearly, the system is not effective enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296a416783a6042ada08da8d7d21a520e\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just the Prime Minister masquerading as a scorpion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bbe24a1ff624e22802d0a2c0844b503\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is true. The Government has got a few scorpions over there now, and there will be a few more stings coming for the poor average Kiwi worker in the months to come if we allow it to get away with what it wants to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI will come back to the bill before us and say that, conceptually, this is the right thing to do. The bill, in principle, is the right thing to do. We are just simply aligning the information database and platform so that we can check and investigate. But let us not forget what is actually being done at the moment, which is a systems analysis, and the sharing of this information will allow that to develop further. We are not checking people more closely, we are not checking goods more closely, we are just putting in place better systems, or so we are told\u2014better systems with less money, so we are told; more efficient, we are told. What I want to know is whether they are going to be effective. Are we going to correctly identify, through the new efficient systems, where there is real risk to this country. The performance of border management agencies\u2014I applaud them for identifying and capturing some drugs hauls. This is no reflection on the front-line staff, but I get emails from biosecurity staff who have walked from the job because they cannot ethically remain in place, knowing they are not doing what they should be able to do and what they need to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere is a compromise here and my concern is that in the drive for efficiency, which the Government is determined to undertake at every level of Government responsibility, the effectiveness of the systems is being undermined. The Trade Single Window that we are aiming to have there\u2014a bit like the SmartGate system for individual travellers\u2014poses huge risks for us long term if not properly resourced and if we do not have the investment in the best technology. I see what we are exposing now is that in the area of trade certification and clearance, the reality is\u2014in spite of the Ministers over there cutting funding and continuing to get up on their hind legs and say: \u201CWe have the world\u2019s best practice. We have the world\u2019s best systems.\u201D\u2014that we do not. We need more investment in the area of border protection. If, as in a couple of other bills being passed through this House under urgency, the objective of the Government is to have them fiscally neutral, then what we are doing here is maybe improving the database, but if we do not have the resources to go with it, we will not have a more effective or better system in place. That is what Labour supports\u2014moving to a more effective system of border processing but keeping in mind our ultimate objective, and that is protecting us from unwanted goods or persons or products or organisms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe have a huge advantage internationally through our reputation, the value of which is impossible to calculate, and the cost of which this Government drives down every single day. It thinks driving down the costs is going to give us better outcomes. That is a dangerous strategy to undertake, and I say to the members getting up and saying that this is going to save $450 million, etc., etc. and put more money back into the pockets of people\u2014ask the exporters what the cost is of the latest debacle around dairy and ask the exporters what the latest cost is of the debacle around meat, and you very quickly get to tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars. The projected savings quickly disappear if we do not end up with a more effective system, not just a more efficient system. I know there are members over there scratching their heads, saying \u201CWhat\u2019s the difference?\u201D, because they have never heard of that, but hopefully they will take time to reflect. I know maybe the next speaker might explain that. It is time to reflect on the reality that effectiveness is more important than efficiency. When it comes to our reputation, when it comes to our border protection and to this current privileged position we have, where we have relatively low disease rates and a reasonably safe, uncorrupted, healthy environment, we do not want that compromised by an ineffective system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c430394e7f424ba9a247929a31bf919e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c430394e7f424ba9a247929a31bf919e\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. The Green Party is supporting it at this stage. We are looking forward to the select committee stage to hear some details and examples of how the benefits of this bill will be actualised. We are very optimistic about this bill in terms of its efficiency, and, following on from the other speaker, we will also be looking to see, particularly on biosecurity, its effectiveness. Certainly, we appreciate the intended and expected benefits to border processing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of points in particular that I will be interested to hear about from officials. One is the exemptions for the re-importing of goods exported. There is a whole wide range of scenarios that could be imagined around that. It is clear that they are meant to be in the same, or substantially the same, condition as when exported from New Zealand. I am keen to hear about that. It is in section 109, inserted by clause 14. I am keen to hear what the examples of those are and what those situations are. I can imagine that a fair bit of that will be about shipping and stuff\u2014just having some sort of efficiencies of transport but still coming back past and not wanting to be open for tariffs or other conditions. So we can expect from that, I assume, that off-shore value adding of product from New Zealand will not be exempt on re-entry. But I look forward to getting some clarification around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EAnother part is the de minimis part in section 118. I will be looking forward to hearing about what the regulations may allow around that. That is looking at the value of goods below which duty need not be collected, so the officials, again, at the select committee consideration, will be able to run some scenarios for us. Clearly, in the regulatory impact statement, it is pointed out that there are issues around the internet\u2014purchasing around the internet. That balance between the cost of, say, enforcement or the bureaucracy around collecting appropriate revenue from that importation relative to the value of it is clearly the issue. It has certainly come up in other situations where the big loss of GST because of overseas internet purchases becomes relevant, and it becomes relevant through this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI would also like to speak on biosecurity for a bit. I do see that this bill allows for a much better flow of information and a very tidy and efficient way of getting information about shipping, about goods coming and going. There are some reasonable expectations and some penalties for those who do not play ball with the appropriate information-sharing. But, as our friend over in Labour just said, the important part, of course, is effectiveness. So we do need to ensure that whatever system we have in place is absolutely effective. We are still having failure around biosecurity. It is still costing us millions upon millions of dollars, and, unfortunately, these things are often in perpetuity because they are not able to be resolved, as my friend who was speaking directly before will know because in his region we have got the great white butterfly as one of those examples. So no matter how efficient our information system is in coming in, ultimately it does come back to the effectiveness, the inspections, and the ability for biosecurity to jump on top of these situations. I am watching that one very, very closely because I am really concerned that that pest is likely to get away. I am not sure that New Zealanders understand the seriousness of that. If it becomes a mainstream pest throughout New Zealand, it would have a huge impact and there would be lots of ramifications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is supporting this bill. We will be looking at what some of those examples are, so that we know we have got an absolute full understanding of the ramifications of the different parts of it. We are looking forward to that and to seeing this bill no doubt progress reasonably speedily right through the process. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022724e9a2124554941bffd372acdb6da0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022724e9a2124554941bffd372acdb6da0b\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to speak on this Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill, and it is also a great pleasure to hear that Her Majesty\u2019s most loyal Opposition, the Labour Party and also the Greens, are going to be supporting this forward-looking, progressive bill, which, of course, is sponsored by the Hon Maurice Williamson, a very enthusiastic Minister of Customs and a Minister who is very, very well acquainted with information and communications technology and, of course, is wanting to progress things. Of course, this absolutely typifies the work of the National Government towards economic development, towards efficiency and effectiveness, towards reducing compliance costs, and towards modernity. We are the Government that has been well-known for championing the roll-out of ultra-fast broadband, and that is entirely relevant to this particular bill. I was quite surprised to hear Mr Tirikatene going into the past on various concerns, which the Labour Party is inclined to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we did hear from the Hon Maurice Williamson at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee was the huge lengths that the Customs Service went to to test in parallel the new system with the old system over a significant period of time, to get the bugs out of it, and also that this particular system will come out in two tranches\u2014again, over a period of time. Although we all know that various computer systems all over the world do have difficulties, a great deal of thought and effort to detail have been put into this particular one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that everyone in New Zealand is concerned about biosecurity, and again we have heard the Customs Service time and time again say what a difficult task it has, where every day there are thousands upon thousands of shipments coming into and out of New Zealand, and that customs officers have to do everything they can to avoid biosecurity risks. It is a bit rich when we have Damien O\u2019Connor, the member for West Coast - Tasman, shroud waving and mastering the art of misinformation, when it was under his regime that didymo came in and under his regime that, of course, the very devastating varroa bee mite came in. Some of these things are inevitable, but what we do want, and what is encapsulated in this new system, is a modern system that is well tested and that is highly necessary for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is worthwhile spending just 1 second on what the regulatory impact statement says regarding the reasons for bringing this legislation in. It says: \u201CThe opportunity for improved efficiencies in border management and lower compliance costs for industry is potentially impeded by existing legislation.\u201D But, moreover: \u201CThe flows of people, goods and craft arriving in New Zealand create significant risks. New Zealand needs a border system capable of facilitating trade and travel, while managing risk and collecting Government revenue of over $10.5 billion a year. Management of the border is undertaken by a number of agencies, including Customs \u2026\u201D. The statement goes on to say: \u201CThe management of the border for customs and biosecurity purposes relies on computer systems that are over 15 years old and lack the flexibility to respond to the increasing needs of border management.\u201D This is the reason why it is so important to progress this very necessary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is great that all parties are supporting it. I look forward to it coming to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which is so ably chaired by my colleague John Hayes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u00226c9f5c7e6b1947e7b8179822decff42b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c9f5c7e6b1947e7b8179822decff42b\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to take a relatively brief call in this first reading of the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. New Zealand First will support this bill going to the select committee, and probably beyond. I say that, though, with some trepidation because this bill appears, on first examination, to have a great deal recommending it. It appears to simplify. It appears to streamline. It appears to make swifter, easier, and more efficient. It appears to promise to make the establishment of a single window through which importers and exporters both may conduct their requisite transactions with Her Majesty\u2019s New Zealand customs and excise and meet their biosecurity obligations a less cumbersome and more user-friendly experience. Therein hangs the conundrum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThis bill promises a great deal. It promises to be the best thing since sliced bread, and if it works it will be a very good thing indeed. The Joint Border Management System itself, if it works as intended and as advertised, will be a good thing. It is clearly a well-intended initiative, and as long as it proves to be true to label it will be of great benefit to the Government, traders, and travellers alike. For anyone who has cause to cross the border, who has goods that must cross the border, inwards or outwards, and for Government departments that have responsibility for or interest in those people, a good well-designed and well-functioning one-stop shop, as the explanatory note describes it, offers a tantalising promise. So we hope that it will. We hope that it will perform as desired and as intended, and we are certainly supportive of the concept behind it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EThe potential pitfall, of course, is the possibility that it might not work, or it might not work properly, or it might have teething issues that expose this country to biosecurity risks. The Ministry for Primary Industries is still a relatively new organisation. The melding together of what were three separate Government departments is no casual undertaking, and there are still hiccups coming through the system as people and methodologies, which used to operate independently, learn to work together in an environment where the greater part of the new organisation is unfamiliar territory for all of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003ETaking on this partnership with yet another department, that being the New Zealand Customs Service, will bring its own challenges and requirements for learning, and we sincerely hope that the new system will be able to be brought to full operational functionality with as few problems as is humanly possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EWe are pleased that it is not all new ground that is to be covered\u2014that established international models, such as the World Customs Organization, will be adopted and that the lodging and formatted data with regard to customs, biosecurity, and food-related information will be compatible with international standards and with the systems used by our trading partners, so that is very encouraging. But we will need to be vigilant. New Zealand needs to pay very close attention indeed to the potential for biosecurity risks being allowed to slip between the cracks as we transition to this new regime. I am sure that everyone involved with the management and security at the border will have this as a primary concern. As New Zealand First and others have said repeatedly in recent months in this House and in relation to various Government bills and policy actions, it is absolutely essential that our biosecurity operations and personnel are resourced adequately and focused appropriately in order to ensure that this potential for incursion is met and minimised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EOnline portals for processing forms and information are all well and good but they are of little value in identifying shipping containers full of cocaine or muddy boots bearing the foot-and-mouth virus. It is our sincerest hope that the Government will not use this new system as an excuse for making yet further cuts to biosecurity resourcing, resulting in even fewer X-rays being taken, fewer dog teams working our ports and airports, and fewer boots on the ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EI do not intend to detain the House unnecessarily during this time of urgency, when the most appropriate forum to address any concerns that we have will be the select committee. We look forward to examining the bill in greater detail there and to listening to the submissions of the public, who are wise beyond the recognition afforded to them in too many cases where Government policies are being forged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EIn closing then I would reiterate that New Zealand First acknowledges the wisdom behind the concept that is driving this bill, and we are certainly in favour of the benefits that it will bring, so long as it is able to function properly. But the proof of the pudding will be in the eating\u2014not that the proof is in the pudding. Why do people say that? Too often we hear people proclaiming that the proof is in the pudding. No, it is not. That does not even make sense. The proof of the pudding is in the eating is the correct quote, and that does make sense. What it means here is that this bill appears to be a very good idea, but the proof of that will be whether it works properly or not. We certainly hope it will, and we are happy to support the bill going to the select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002289b8187d8e2c422aa813276c79d7bf41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289b8187d8e2c422aa813276c79d7bf41\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E The more we let business do business, the more economic growth we get. The more growth we get, the more employment we get. That, in a nutshell, is the main thrust of the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. The main thrust of this Government is to make business able to do business, so that it creates the wealth, so that we can get on with creating the opportunities for employment, better education, and so on and so forth. My colleague Mr Hayes said that this bill is one of the strands of the rope. It is the link in the chain. It is the doughboy in the boil-up. It is essential that we allow business\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cefd8663ddf54a6d9fbdcf23733c1c11\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the toe in the shoe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3f99263368d430db6618688ac5a020e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It is the clich\u00E9 in the clich\u00E9. It is essential that we allow business to get on with what it knows best\u2014that is, doing business\u2014and that we get out of the way. But we must also make sure that there are protections there for our consumers and also for our business people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI am heartened to find that Rino Tirikatene mentioned bugs and grubs. There was one in the House yesterday that we have not really got rid of yet, but, hopefully, there is time to get rid of that grub. I commend this bill to the House, and I also cannot wait\u2014I cannot wait\u2014for the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to do its business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022069235bc4ba8455c906e4744a2edd959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022069235bc4ba8455c906e4744a2edd959\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pity that every one of the National speakers who have got to their feet have talked a little around this bill, the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill, and have then run out of content and substance to actually debate the bill properly. This is an important piece of legislation. I have got to say that when I came into the House to discuss this bill and I saw Craig Foss start the first reading, I thought: \u201COh my God. The Minister who brought us Novopay, and all of the botch-ups that were involved in that, is now bringing to the House a piece of legislation that makes fundamental IT changes in our critical border security and biosecurity area.\u201D I thought: \u201CThis is doomed. We will go down the same path as Novopay in this term of the National Government.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI was in the House when the National Party brought in INCIS and spent $100 million on it. National members spent $100 million on a police computer system, and it failed, and they chucked it away\u2014$100 million down the drain. I thought: \u201CI do support the concept of a Trade Single Window, and I do support the joint border management system, but do I have confidence in this National Government, which has a track record of bungling IT every time they put their hands on it?\u201D. There he is\u2014John Hayes is putting both hands up in the air to take responsibility for each of those failures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI am particularly worried because this bill does deal with our trade. I have seen the bungles that have been made in our trading over the last few months; the bungles in regard to the export of our biggest single export product, which is dairy products; and the bungles in regard to meat processing. When I see how the National Government has mismanaged that, and I see the problems that have arisen because National thought that it can make some quick savings\u2014cut costs, and slash the officials that work hard and conscientiously on this\u2014I think again: \u201CMy God, can we trust the National Government to bring in an important system like this?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9ba80d1c5245b98c04e6dc4fb74769\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can. Yes, you can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe6090c4fdf42b78a5d1397cb120a0d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: You know, Mr Hayes, if we are looking, as we are, at why we have had this immense, unprecedented problem in trading in our most important products, look no further than the Government\u2019s decision to abolish the Food Safety Authority. Look no further than its decision to restructure the Ministry for Primary Industries. Look no further, Mr Hayes, than its decision\u2014a totally botched decision\u2014to take the best people out of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. More than anybody else, Mr Hayes knows that some of the best people that we had working in that division went down the road, lost their jobs, or left because they were disillusioned. The Prime Minister, having demolished that ministry with his ill-thought-out and botched restructuring\u2014conducted by Murray McCully\u2014is now saying: \u201COh, maybe we\u2019d better beef up our trade negotiation sector.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI support this legislation and I support the intent of it. It began under a Labour Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c31afb45cbe4f8ead52dcaa1eb4b92d\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226933b584f6534d6baa0f354a9fbf10ab\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e3a3a2037d1492c969d5ad90e23d5e4\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Credit Rating, Forecasts, and Alternative Approaches\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u00229145bc890f6645f4b13b6527556f0ca8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229145bc890f6645f4b13b6527556f0ca8\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he received on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022438d5959d24545fbb371d58926529a51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022438d5959d24545fbb371d58926529a51\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this week ratings agency Standard and Poor\u2019s reaffirmed its AA foreign currency long-term rating for New Zealand. Its outlook remains stable. It said that New Zealand\u2019s credit rating reflects the country\u2019s fiscal and monetary policy flexibility, economic resilience, public policy stability, and a stable financial sector. As it has noted before, Standard and Poor\u2019s also commented on New Zealand\u2019s high external debt, which is driven by high household and agricultural sector debt. Even so, it has forecast current account deficit of around 6 percent by 2015\u2014which I think is too pessimistic\u2014which is significantly better than the 8 or 9 percent peak of current account deficits in the 3 years to 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246678293af7a4c248a9ef6d0a6ad6bda\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: What did Standard and Poor\u2019s say about New Zealand\u2019s immediate economic prospects, and what are the main sources of expected economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022279af627e699431f89ac3d0b8a8a2d94\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Standard and Poor\u2019s said that New Zealand does have the benefit of a resilient and relatively high-income economy, and expects GDP to grow at about 1.5 percent per annum per capita over the next few years, consistent with total GDP growth of 2 to 3 percent, as we have spoken about for a number of months now. Growth is expected to be driven by post-earthquake construction in Christchurch as well as strong underlying demand for more residential construction in Auckland. The ratings agency notes that the Government\u2019s checks and balances are effective and that we are near the top of many surveys on governance, government efficiency, and business promotion. However, it is clear from its commentary that our external debt position is still too large, and the more that we can encourage and support businesses to invest and households to reduce their debt the better for our long-term economic prospects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229724402915ad4607bf8292ac5ff80882\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has the Minister received on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de27900ca3554894a7b4f1530dc3c14d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Institute of Economic Research has this week issued its quarterly predictions, which note that the New Zealand economy is recovering moderately. It notes that there are significant global risks, with signs of a slowing economy and financial instability in China, and slower growth in Australia and some emerging markets. It notes that optimism is spreading across businesses and consumers. However, this is no recipe for complacency. Clearly, with our still relatively high debt levels, and the need to grow our export sector, there are many challenges ahead in lifting incomes and providing more jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b089d3550b5404eacb508d1b6938aef\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report that he just quoted that, on page 4, says of Auckland: \u201Cgrowth in jobs has stalled and the region is on a \u2018sugar high\u2019 of rapidly rising house prices and debt\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffdc52b0ad374b8f9a53e600ebb72d00\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, to some extent. The Auckland housing market, as, I think, is well understood, has been growing faster than makes sense for a stable economy. Construction and housing there will promote growth, and I would hope that the Opposition will be able to support the Government\u2019s measures to ensure more houses on the ground more quickly in order to moderate that growth and moderate the sugar shock in the Auckland economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9765951aaf498dbaca01cfe23fb5bd\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister received on alternative approaches to managing the economy, particularly the management of the Government\u2019s balance sheet to control debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a023a769d3542d9be41ada644a4abae\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: One measure that the Government has taken to control debt is the partial sale of some Government assets, which allows us to get cash from mainly New Zealand investors to invest in other priority public assets. I notice there is some opposition to this policy, but I have not seen any reports that the opponents of the Government share offer programme will actually buy back the shareholdings in the Government electricity companies. I take it from that that the candidates for the Labour leadership do not actually believe the positions they are taking, because they will not commit to buying them back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854a57eaaae140d783d5b95d375275f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is a satisfactory, long enough answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002275551f28b4ce46299125cacc4d7d8489\u0022\u003ESyria, Internal Conflict\u2014International Response to Use of Chemical Weapons\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7cd372a5810439091ba67da274ed853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7cd372a5810439091ba67da274ed853\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What advice was New Zealand given in New York last night on the likely response to the use of chemical weapons in Syria?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00226a6a435ba640402e9edbe618c1421fbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a6a435ba640402e9edbe618c1421fbe\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER (Associate Minister of Foreign Affairs) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs: We are receiving updates from a range of posts around the world, including, obviously, New York, which convey the perspectives of a range of countries about possible responses to a clearly abhorrent act. We have repeatedly said that the United Nations Security Council needs to show leadership on Syria, and needs to show it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a10d978af34611a8314cd9ac3ba8be\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Has New Zealand given any commitment to the United States or any other country as to what action it might take in the event of a military strike against Syria; if so, what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e77a43231e6478c876a3c50d20b3423\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee645cd464384e21a6d8aa9ddc0057ce\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is New Zealand supporting Ban Ki-moon\u2019s position that no decision on a strike should be taken against Syria until such time as the United Nations weapons inspection team has completed its task?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c730b2644afb4bc3a6d2743dae27e23d\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, the report of the inspectors will be a crucial ingredient in any serious response, but we are not, given the seriousness of this nature, taking a position on a hypothetical question at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b786500fee964fe1af8ba8bb62bbc047\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What direct approach, if any, has New Zealand made to permanent Security Council members\u2014in particular, Russia and China\u2014urging them not to veto any appropriate collective action that might otherwise be supported by the vast majority on that council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88feb991851465594f17085c5b1a3a7\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Our representatives have taken a number of steps with a number of Governments, including those Governments, to convey our position on that. Once again, it comes down to the central matter: it is time for the Security Council to show leadership, and the Security Council should unite behind that position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf08798b828e4383aac08e5031f26248\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was not about some country; it was specifically about permanent Security Council members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e1e9f9d3184259b7dd5545abe2e793\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I ask the member to repeat his question from the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecef95b5d59f4ead821dbce794c096ab\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What direct approach, if any, has New Zealand taken to permanent Security Council members Russia and China, urging them not to veto collective action that has widespread support from other members of the council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225348eadc0c5b4b8dabae94d5028d3206\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I believe I answered that very clearly in the answer I have just given. I said \u201Cincluding\u201D those countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022737b2d0621254a20becbc63365707355\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: How would a military strike against Syria help secure the chemical weapons\u2014the hundreds of tonnes of chemical weapons\u2014that are stockpiled there, rather than increase the prospect of those chemical weapons falling into the hands of people who might use them, or being used by elements of the regime in retaliation for the strike?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bafbe322e4c34dbd9870b9301d0bb5af\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, that is a huge and legitimate question, and we can be certain that the strategic thinkers who are considering the range of options will have that at the forefront of their attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228408aa9209ed42f9aa7c3a70d61c77f9\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What lessons can be learnt from Iraq, where, 10 years after the military invasion of Iraq by the United States, more than a thousand Iraqi people a month are still being killed, or, for that matter, Libya, where, after the air strikes against Libya, the conditions there today range somewhere between anarchy and chaos?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c66e94b1e35b45f3bd4a4efe9522dace\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure many lessons can be learnt from these situations. But as the member would be well aware, having served as our Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, every situation has its specific characteristics. Some lessons will be generally applicable across different conflicts, but each has to be looked at sui generis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d502af21198842d0bb355717d23aa894\u0022\u003ESchools, Partnership\u2014Standard of Applicants\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00221746c5e1d1a449af974550b3b00654bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221746c5e1d1a449af974550b3b00654bd\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by her statements in relation to Partnership School applicants that \u201Cthe range of applications we have received is impressive\u201D and what she was impressed with was \u201Cthe broad range of applicants not the calibre\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022 data-id=\u0022af99aca27e814970920b8ed653469600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af99aca27e814970920b8ed653469600\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS (Associate Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Education: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205eb1736244e41ee8f154bf17d125164\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Was the poor calibre of applications the reason why the Government missed the June 2013 date for contracts to be signed for these schools; if not, what was the reason that that date was missed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022817d21a54aff4e9aa32d24c814150108\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Ministry of Education and the officials have been going through a long and rigorous programme of deliberation on all of the 35 applications, to make sure that the right applications get to the right place at the right time, and under intense scrutiny. We are not behind time. In the very near future we are about to announce the successful partnership schools for day one, term one, next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a521712c82b47e7a4c7d206fef401c5\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that Catherine Isaac, head of the Partnership Schools/Kura Hourua Authorisation Board, was telling the truth when she issued a press release on 8 May this year praising \u201Cthe range and calibre of applicants\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c2e8ec7d4a34f5b941a122c11ffb95b\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the minutes refer to the ministry\u2019s score of how the 67-page application forms were completed; it was not an observation about the quality of the applicants, as the minutes go on to point out. The authorisation board and Miss Isaac were charged with determining the quality of the applications. The applicants have been put through tight hoops and high hurdles, and the very best applicants will be allowed to open a partnership school on day one, term one, next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ff095a42384722a73f704edbb3a504\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister did not answer my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022340f1c6a04b44eda843bdda55894dc77\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion, I invite the member to repeat the question for the benefit of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229947ceb056774c318af704c2639ce6b1\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that Catherine Isaac, head of the Partnership Schools Authorisation Board, was telling the truth when she issued a press release on 8 May this year praising \u201Cthe range and calibre of applicants\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397382944d864967963ca2af8ea362b1\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I have absolute confidence that Miss Catherine Isaac, the chairman of the authorisation board, would always tell the truth about the 35 applicants of the partnership schools, those shortlisted, and the successful applicants who will open partnership schools up and down this country on day one, term one, next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0d75ea34f4148d69588e6dae1ec77f2\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister consider that Ms Isaac was telling the truth in her 8 May statement given that the day after her press statement praising these schools was made, the board she chairs noted the low scores and the lack of capability among the 35 applicants for partnership schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237692d16813b48feb0dfcd0050c2b957\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: We were impressed with the 35 applicants from across the country, and I am advised that what the member is talking about\u2014low scores\u2014is the ministry\u2019s score of how the 67-page application forms were completed. It was about the 67-page application forms, not an observation about the quality of the applicants, as the minutes go on to point out. The authorisation board was charged with determining the quality of the applicants. The authorisation board has done that and has come back with a group of very successful, high-quality applicants, which will face statutory obligations, high hurdles, and tight hoops before they open on day one, term one, next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183185efb9f74ae5adbc76a6784158b4\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the 9 May minutes of the authorisation board meeting, which clearly shows that the board commented on the overall level of scoring, which was lower than\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c802d268ec44e1bddff1fb87add085\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is enough of a description. Leave is sought to table the minutes, dated 9 May. Is there any objection to those being tabled? There appears to be none. They can be tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221abf436b104540f18df1eba53357683e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Has the authorisation board sought further applications given the applicants\u2019 low overall scores and the gaps identified in business planning, operations, and legislative knowledge, given that all of these are vital to the running of a school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebd0e070c1344dd9b7043d8c6abf04b2\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: They are vital to the running of these schools, and the running of these schools will be set down in the statutory contract set by the Government on behalf of the people for the funding of these schools. Yes, they will have high levels of accountability, openness, and structure around them to make them work on day one, term one, next year so that the underachievers in this country can have an opportunity for a world-class education, as the Minister might have had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be68a7e90dfd4f1bb7768cae25bdc166\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question asked whether the authorisation board was seeking further applications given the low quality of the 35. That question has not been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221baf0418f1424795953a81b3b0222a3c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again part of the problem is the length of the question. The question was certainly: \u201CHas the authorisation board sought further applications?\u201D. It is difficult for Ministers sometimes to decipher a question when it is a long-winded question with a relatively simple question in it. If the member wants to just stand and repeat the essence of the question, which is: \u201CHas the authorisation board sought further applications?\u201D, I will attempt to get an answer for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a201594a6403466d83b68d9a25d56017\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I will take up that opportunity. Has the authorisation board sought further applications given the 35 applicants\u2019 low scores?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92b4d624b4448ada2d89fd82c7f155a\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: No, because on balance the authorisation board has come up with a number of partnership schools that will open on day one, term one, next year. Amongst the 35 applicants will be very high-quality people who will work in the best interests of the local community and in the best interests of underachieving schools, and they will produce outcomes that are absolutely committed to a world-class education for these kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad144e33e53d44b9b524490c49bc4041\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that any applicant for one of these schools should at least score highly on the operations criteria given that that is the ability to run a school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269f16c9c539443e0be9c473fe7a1861a\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any argument with the proposition put by the member, and I can tell the member that the contracts being negotiated now with the successful group of partnership school applicants will be very, very tight, the hurdles very high, the hoops very tight, and the accountability open and transparent. She will be able to see it for herself when all the documents are laid out in front of the country when the successful applicants are named in a very short space of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c341995e9c242aaa8da5ccbb158000e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Given the poor quality of the applications, including deficiencies in operations, legislative knowledge, and business planning, will she now reconsider this disastrous and wasteful experiment and put the money spent on these schools back into our overstretched public education system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf0a400613ca4aa8bc1f0e26a7d3e333\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, and no, because the successful applicants will work in the best interests of the kids from those communities who are underachievers. This will give them an opportunity for a world-class education. I am surprised that the co-leader of the Green Party would not want an opportunity for a world-class education for many of the people who fail in the present system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca758f991aee47c3a1c553478d3450da\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How quickly will poorly performing partnership schools be closed down given that the Prime Minister is already stating: \u201CIf those partnership schools do not succeed the Government will be just as quick to close them down as we have been to establish them.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b53f8451-a5f8-4e92-851f-9ca381f19343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f28b7a22f514921b824214cf3cff0ac\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have got very good news. Because of the process that these 35 applicants have been through, and because of the high quality of the final applicants that are going to be announced very soon to start on day one, term one, next year, they will not be closed down. The only fear that members on the other side of this House have got today is that these partnership schools will work for the most vulnerable kids in our education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53c290b4cfa48e887e3955c7cc21f42\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268fe3366f412493f945294e7c56ec2df\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde683870cf64f16918cd298e1184e1a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: My question to the Minister was actually: \u201CHow quickly will poorly performing partnership schools be closed down?\u201D. The Minister basically said that he did not think there were going to be any poorly performing partnership schools, but he did not actually say how quickly they would be closed down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223acff9beb6784c1e9e1b0ad8078d8b84\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If he does not think there are going to be any poorly performing such schools, how could he then decide how quickly they would be closed down? I think the Minister adequately addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ded88ad7a224e0998bdab01961e8c46\u0022\u003EScience and Research Funding\u20142013 Science Investment Round and Other Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00221c4bc975376d465ba39b014548dc4436\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c4bc975376d465ba39b014548dc4436\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Science and Innovation: How much will the Government invest in new research through the 2013 Science Investment Round?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022419fbad602ec46eb98bd74c2977ce346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022419fbad602ec46eb98bd74c2977ce346\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Science and Innovation):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday I was pleased to announce that New Zealand researchers will receive $278 million in new research investment through the 2013 science investment round. The 51 research programmes that will receive funding through the contestable process are in areas as diverse as biological industries, high-value manufacturing and services, energy and minerals, and health and society. Science and innovation are critical to New Zealand\u2019s economic success and growth. These new investments must result in research programmes that deliver economic, environmental, and social outcomes. Many of the proposals involve collaborations between several research organisations, with industry partners contributing co-funding and market knowledge in order to help accelerate commercial outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdf8cec7c9364b73976ca5cbe6a4866f\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the projects that will be funded through the 2013 science investment round?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e42e2c60c74cf297e973a7b1267b3c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: There are 51 projects, in total, receiving funding, but let me highlight just a couple that the House may be interested in. The Cawthron Institute will be receiving $21 million over 7 years to domesticate New Zealand\u2019s valuable shellfish species. The official project title is the Cultured Shellfish programme. This will provide a reliable seed supply and enable selective breeding, yielding higher productivity quality and, of course, market value. Another interesting project is Scion\u2019s precision forestry programme. Scion will receive $20 million over 6 years to shift forestry management to precision forestry, so that New Zealand\u2019s forest products can be sold to overseas markets by demonstrating environmental and social sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039010b78fe640ce9f283cbf95331f5e\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What other investment is the Government making in science innovation and research?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288cb874486ec4106a266c8c2b75c77cc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Very good question. The Government recognises that science and innovation are key drivers of economic growth and of making New Zealand businesses more competitive internationally. That is why we have increased total funding for science innovation and research across Government to $1.36 billion in the current financial year, up from $1.24 billion last year, and an increase in 28 percent over the last 4 years. In Budget 2013 we allocated an additional $75 million for business research and development grants, $31 million for repayable grants for start-up businesses, and an additional $73 million for the National Science Challenges. Of course, we have established Callaghan Innovation, the new hi-tech HQ for businesses\u2019 research and development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f0f3c9dbf8244bcbfca21cef3d6d862\u0022\u003EPrimary Industries, Ministry\u2014Response to Incidents and Performance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00224e938106df874f9191e8feda612dc116\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e938106df874f9191e8feda612dc116\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Primary Industries: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2ff561d33294f76961dfc8348ab7e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2ff561d33294f76961dfc8348ab7e04\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cdcee81ed1749f4b577d1647292038e\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement: \u201CIt is a high-performing ministry. During the recent hiccup MPI stood up. It responded incredibly well. It did a fantastic job.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccfa4074b6264b6baeb6b2d68bcc9499\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ab2b5e0d4b74246afa1578d2aa9fa51\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that he and his ministry did a fantastic job during the Psa virus infestation, the great white moth incursion, the dicyandiamide milk scandal in China, palm kernel expeller importation and possible contamination, the ministry\u2019s recent failure to certify meat for China, Fonterra\u2019s botulism scare, Russia\u2019s blockade of New Zealand dairy products, Fonterra\u2019s dicyandiamide issues in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, and nitrate levels in Westland Milk Products\u2019 lactoferrin powder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e710722e25054ed58e2a0e5032a9c558\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: The Ministry for Primary Industries is a high-performing ministry. From time to time there are learnings, and I am sure there will be learnings as a result of the compliance investigation and the ministerial inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad4e1f35b5145e48233fb3a3f248c66\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen regarding the Ministry for Primary Industries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e02d27582ab24d98b38d1ac169972fff\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a range of reports, including one that claimed that the Ministry for Primary Industries was subsumed into the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and that Murray McCully is the Minister of Trade, and another that claims that I have cut the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 budget by $26 million. Of course, all of these claims are factually incorrect and were made by Damien O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffbd421137e141e2b239f83acb73efe0\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Without getting into debate on that particular answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fe566aded0a432d9036406ab07febd2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d83cbdb64e3a4e0a9eb1e08c0a8ac11e\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Given his statement: \u201CEvery day I am filled with the purpose of adding value to our economy \u2026\u201D, on which particular day in the last 3 months has he achieved this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277906e71a79e4b0a9fee51ba45e0e191\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Every day I am very proud to be a hard-working Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256cfaa11e62a4183977f13cb842883ff\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government\u2019s announcement that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade will hire food safety trade specialists amount to an admission that his Government\u2019s cuts to both the Ministry for Primary Industries and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade went too far, and has his Government ruled out compensation to those companies affected by its recent ineptitude?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31e791ea7904a2d944b52058b2f46bc\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: No, what this shows is that the Ministry for Primary Industries and the Ministry for Foreign Affairs and Trade are responding to growing markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641aa83c1b0143c1ae6fbdf54fed5639\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What can the Minister say to the 240 workers stood down on 8 August, and now without pay, from the Alliance Pukeuri meatworks near \u014C\u0101maru because his ministry has been unable to complete its audit following suspicions that it was certifying meat from other works for export, which has compromised their ability to get into the China market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249f2195009ab49a0b382f23cd5adfc15\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of that issue, and I caution the member because there are some issues with that particular plant that the Ministry for Primary Industries is working through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbf94c8794f04ad4bf1c7de7c446b1b8\u0022\u003EParenting Support\u2014Peekaboo App and Other Initiatives Targeting Fathers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7e0bb9e045549f1b702b02155de02af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7e0bb9e045549f1b702b02155de02af\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: How is the Government promoting technology to support young fathers to better connect, interact, and parent their children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a3b163127949afa9edc47f9117e58c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a3b163127949afa9edc47f9117e58c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E Today, in partnership with Plunket and Vodafone, we launched a new mobile app designed to encourage young fathers to better interact with their children. It was launched to coincide with Father\u2019s Day on Sunday. The concept is the work of Josh Briggs\u2014[Interruption] Listen up. This is interesting. The concept is the work of Josh Briggs, a young Wellington dad and Vodafone New Zealand Foundation World of Difference recipient. This is a fantastic example of the Government, NGOs, and the corporate sector working together to create a product with real benefits for our dads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217e143db216243caa9ad25c2371c8ef9\u0022\u003EAlfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: When will the application be available for parents to download?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c147d6d0b21c4671aa6281393648a59d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The Peekaboo app will be available in both English and Te Reo, and is a free download from both the Apple and Android stores from 1 September. It is designed for babies aged 9 months and older. I particularly like that it was designed by a dad in conjunction with his baby. It is interactive, and it has their own family involved in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b0a81892e3c4d159c5d0479520dfdb5\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s its name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b298dc47edb4096b90ae3c2ef4313b4\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Josh Briggs is the father, and it is called the Peekaboo app.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf3314408b0495da765fd3e5ceee06b\u0022\u003EAlfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: How are other Government initiatives supporting young fathers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263da65da2f8a4fc5954dabdf214eb745\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is true that during those down 2000 years, teen dads were ignored, so in Budget 2010 we provided investment in teen parent programmes that support our young dads in particular. These programmes arm these fathers with information and skills to prepare them for birth, give them parenting skills, and also help them to respond effectively to their child\u2019s health, education, and social needs. It is fundamentally making a difference on the ground and helping support them in their role as fathers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002248bc8da57bc5452e8be49ee5fdc2a983\u0022\u003EEmployment, 90-day Trial Period\u2014Impact on Vulnerable Workers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00221c5c1b24f63143daa1cc4f4f02786bc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c5c1b24f63143daa1cc4f4f02786bc5\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: He aha t\u0101na t\u0101taritanga m\u014D te p\u016Brongo e kii ana, atu i te 11,000 ng\u0101 p\u0101hi kua tango mahi i ng\u0101 kaimahi i roto i te tau tuatahi o t\u0101 te K\u0101wanatanga 90 r\u0101 whakaw\u0101 mahi, e hia o \u0113nei o ng\u0101 kaimahi he kaimahi M\u0101ori, Pasifika r\u0101nei kei raro i  te tau 25?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[What analysis has he undertaken on the report that more than 11,000 employers fired at least one worker during a trial period in the first year of the Government\u2019s 90 day work trial law; and amongst the group of employees fired, how many were M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and aged under 25 years old?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00223965dde60cd24eaca58063f324b219de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223965dde60cd24eaca58063f324b219de\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question. I have not undertaken any specific analysis, but I am being updated on the use and impact of 90-day trial periods. The information requested in the second part of the question is not available. What I can tell the member, though, is that the figure the member quotes represents 19 percent of employers who used the trial period. The far more important figure, in my view, is that 80 percent or more of employers who had employed new staff on trial periods retained those employees. This equates to upwards of 46,000 employers who used trial periods and kept staff on, half of whom they would not have even given a chance to otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a028380ba7684ecbae44583ce035af38\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: How is it possible to know the impact of this legislation on M\u0101ori, Pasifika, the disabled, the young, and other disadvantaged groups if basic labour market statistics are not recorded, and does he intend to ensure that proper data is gathered in the future in order to assess the success or otherwise of the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022270b8aa48ce5481695257d42615dfeea\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: It is another fair question. As I have said in the primary answer\u2014and it is true for this supplementary question also\u2014I do not have the specific data or statistics that he asked for. But what I do know, and what the employer surveys make quite clear is that young people and people in the categories that the member has talked about, who would not have even been given a chance at a job, got long-term jobs as a result of this law change. Forty percent of employers gave chances that, as I say, they otherwise would not have given, so this law has been pro-jobs, particularly for the sorts of groups that the member refers to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102402cf4c454b6c8edddaeb03e30b34\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Given that this law does not protect vulnerable workers from being dismissed, what avenues are available to workers who believe that they have been discriminated against\u2014such as those, for example, who experienced discrimination in the Merrill Lynch case in America\u2014and does he accept that discrimination in employment may well exist in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c277452473408b9dd959752d90c1e5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Systemic discrimination in a workplace is never acceptable. What is very clear with this 90-day law is that the ordinary laws that prohibit any form of discrimination on the basis of sex, race, and so on remain in place, and, as I said, anything other than that is not only entirely unacceptable but also unlawful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220dcebcf688db4487851b484d6eec7fc3\u0022\u003EPest Control\u2014Aerial Use of 1080 Poison\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u002214e4f3ca98274db4bddceb04402462b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214e4f3ca98274db4bddceb04402462b0\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Does he stand by all his statements regarding 1080?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022d59d75362d634480ac8bf78ece7b453a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d59d75362d634480ac8bf78ece7b453a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, as they are backed up by solid science. I draw the member\u2019s attention to the recent reports by the Environmental Protection Authority and the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment that conclude that if it is properly used, it is safe, and that it is critical to the survival of our native birds and our native trees. Members advocating a ban on aerial 1080 are indirectly signing a death warrant for our kiwi, our blue duck, our robin, and our t\u016B\u012B, as well as undermining our economy and the work of TBfree New Zealand to ensure our food exports are disease-free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022002e6e03f67f4a14a293bd7c3a922325\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Department of Conservation\u2019s own findings, as reported in the New Zealand Herald, show that almost 13 percent of kea will be killed by repellent-treated 1080 baits, is he happy that approximately 130 of the estimated 1,000 kea in the area of the western Kahurangi, which is to be poisoned by his department, will be killed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022902af35b334548898feb5a7721f87c5b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is true that in a 1080 operation in \u014Ctira, when they monitored the 39 kea, five were killed. It is also true, though, that in over eight other 1080 operations where every kea was monitored, including in the Kahurangi National Park, not a single kea died. The evidence seems to be that in areas where kea are humanly fed, they can get into the habit of taking bait. More important, though\u2014and I point this out to the member\u2014in areas where 1080 has not been used, 99 percent of kea chicks die because of predation\u201499 percent. That is a path to extinction. In areas where 1080 is used, 100 percent of kea chicks have survived in the first year, and 68 percent in the second year, confirming that, overall, kea survival depends on the use of 1080.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f5bf83578274cafa96d6b79e8bb5437\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: Can he tell the House how many of the 13 percent of kea killed by repellent-treated 1080 died as a result of eating baits directly and how many died from secondary poisoning after consuming insects that had been killed by 1080; if not why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228abc31d1e06e40f8bd729011184f553c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I can only record as much as the science that is available. It is true that there is risk of kea eating bait directly and a risk of kea eating stoats or rats that are killed. But I would point out to the member that in the area of Kahurangi National Park in the Nelson region, where he is objecting to a 1080 operation, the last time a 1080 operation was done, not one of the monitored kea died. Secondly\u2014and this is critical\u2014we have just had a beech tree mast. The most recent indication is that we have got the worst ever plague of rats within the Kahurangi National Park, and unless we treat with 1080, the great spotted kiwi and birds like the kea and the blue duck will be wiped out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224798d7a26274d639bfa49b96e42884a\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: How many dead kea is an acceptable number of dead kea?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f907a3231a0645479eabb8b8be5ce5d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I would, of course, prefer that no kea died, just as, in the same way, I would prefer that no stoats or rats or possums killed kea chicks or kiwi chicks. The reality is, though, that when the science says that 99 percent of chicks will die from predation without 1080 operations, I am happy to be part of a Government that will back the science, back our native birds, and use whatever tools we need to ensure that our native birds survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a2717d0d1c46a38afdbdd347ecdaaa\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that under the Wildlife Act 1953 the killing of any endangered or protected native bird is illegal; if so, will his department face prosecution should it be found to have killed a protected native species by using 1080 poison drops; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f04c313c1ddc472eaf4e8e00155bc467\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That question is about as stupid as suggesting that we prosecute the stoats, the rats, and the possums that every single night kill our kea, our kiwi, and our other native birds. If that is what New Zealand First stands for, well, I am a bit lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7aef14ed8c488e8c04b53b8d2660a0\u0022\u003ERichard Prosser\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question asked whether his department will face prosecution, and the Minister did not answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ab79f88ecf43ba816a8cc78de144de\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I think he gave you a very fair answer as to the likelihood of that happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4a088e7bc83472da902583fbaa69f80\u0022\u003EOil, Gas, and Minerals Exploration\u2014Public Notification of Deep-sea Drilling\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce60870e126e4f48a09566d9c1482f92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce60870e126e4f48a09566d9c1482f92\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Why has her Ministry proposed that applications for exploratory deep sea drilling won\u2019t require public notification given that it is the same activity that the Deepwater Horizon was engaged in when it exploded and sank in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00224ca18cab96404c129b1bf27638c15790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ca18cab96404c129b1bf27638c15790\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The discussion document released yesterday is for consulting on classifying exploratory drilling as \u201Cnon-notified discretionary\u201D, meaning that the regulator will have total discretion to consider and determine the application on its merits and to impose any required conditions. The critical point is that until now there has been zero environmental oversight of such operations, but now under this Government there will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI consider that this classification is appropriate because exploratory drilling takes place over a short space of time, involves the drilling of a very small hole in the seabed, and, when operating as intended, has low environmental impact. At this exploratory stage of the process, it is the environmental impact that the regulator needs to be satisfied of. Oil spills from exploratory drilling are rare. In the Deepwater Horizon event referred to, my understanding is that the failings related primarily to bad well design and integrity and inadequate containment measures. Regulation of both those aspects falls under other pieces of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to ensuring that all petroleum and minerals activities have rigorous environmental and safety controls, which means having procedures in place to stop spills from happening, and having effective response mechanisms in the unlikely event that spills occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a36e418d65154195b6e3bec5968cfbde\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain the logic in shutting the public out from having a say on proposals for the riskiest phase of oil drilling, which is exploratory drilling, but allowing the public to have a say on proposals for production drilling, and is the Minister aware that it actually takes the same amount of time, 4 to 6 weeks, to drill both?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111c3a7c1e7347ea972a7c77bb817cce\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: These exploratory wells have been drilled in New Zealand for more than 45 years without any environmental oversight and without, actually, any history of serious issue. The point of this part of the process is for the regulator to be satisfied that the proper environmental controls are in place. And, yes, I am satisfied that it is appropriate that they do that based on the evidence and on the information, and bearing in mind that this is an exploratory, fact-finding part of the process. Before anyone could move to full production, they would absolutely have to have a full public process. I consider that that is the appropriate part of the process for the public to have their say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255df8800cf7e4cbe8a69a8adfc3e7882\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Minister seriously telling the people of New Zealand that this Government will ask Kiwis their opinion on what colour to paint Department of Conservation huts but has proposed to deny the public their say on proposals for deep-sea exploratory drilling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a503da711de249caba9fa69435b7c244\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: What I am telling the public of New Zealand is that the National-led Government is the one that has put in place any environmental protections and safeguards in the exclusive economic zone, and that the Labour-Green Government did not see fit to bother with any regulator discretion and certainly no public notifications. So I think the New Zealand public can be very satisfied with the protections we are creating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022370bae2a33e34414973573fb2abc91dd\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Given her reference to the regulator, which is the Environmental Protection Authority, what contribution to environmental protection can the Environmental Protection Authority offer when it does not have environmental protection as one of its stated purposes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022687df27a42fb478fbbf8faf47b2aed4e\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: The critical aspect that members need to be aware of is that under the proposed classification, the Environmental Protection Authority has full and complete discretion to accept, to refuse, and to impose conditions, based on the merits of the application and on the information put in front of it. I have full confidence that the authority will be absolutely satisfied before it makes its decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a077c2c0154378826ca98e8000d333\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister cannot guarantee that we will not see a Gulf of Mexico - style oil spill from an exploratory well in New Zealand\u2019s waters, why will she not protect our economy, our environment, and our \u201Cclean, green\u201D reputation and make exploratory deep-sea drilling a prohibited activity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c27c1fb2e9487f8c533a9fac365674\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, largely because there is no scientific evidence that backs up the member\u2019s assertion that that is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022944c291b24fa40b8a91a7ba173a72df9\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations\u2014Impact of Legislative Reform on Workers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdad3e1a2ac649f687bc946dfbea8700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdad3e1a2ac649f687bc946dfbea8700\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What advice, if any, has he received about whether workers will be better or worse off under the Employment Relations Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b64b06f6bb0d42de925f2d6606aac934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b64b06f6bb0d42de925f2d6606aac934\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, from the real workers\u2019 party in this Parliament, it is great to answer this question. Overall, the advice I have received suggests that the changes will create an employment relations framework that increases flexibility and choice and ensures a balance of fairness for employers and employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e634fc8c481419a8f95857d8135f49a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s never done a day\u2019s work in his life\u2014never done a day\u2019s work in his life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d76a03971f64ac7a681f6a8d1fc0bfe\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is not about making things worse for workers, although I am sure the member has convinced herself it is. To the member who says I have never done a day\u2019s work in my life, I have worked at Foodtown, I have worked in bars, I have worked in cleaning\u2014probably more than that loser ever has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2281bd251944e8b4805cedfb24fe90\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Will workers be better or worse off given that his bill will mean a return to the situation under the Unemployment Contracts Act where unions fail at the first hurdle of bargaining if an employer insists they want only individual agreements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265a6c1c295c450b86d4335eb9c6a597\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, per se it is actually not about better or worse off. But protracted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297248d439d584fe4975d8c91738b00bc\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d552250880c49a9adf9e695902d48a3\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am answering the question. But protracted bargaining that goes on and on and is contentious is in no one\u2019s interest, actually. The real way to get wages up is through better productivity and more profitability, which results in more money in workers\u2019 pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224df9a0d642584020b89fb914fdf306d3\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Will workers be better or worse off under the provision in his bill where the so-called 60-day grace period is actually a 100-day no-strike period, where workers have neither the protection of collective bargaining nor the right to strike?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac59617199547e0bf9cb1a7dec219c6\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the purpose of the grace period is very clear. Of course, if you have got a collective bargaining period that comes to an end, you need to then have a mechanism so that it does not just go straight back to collective bargaining. But as I said in the answer earlier, it is in no one\u2019s interest to have protracted, endless bargaining that gets no one anywhere. It is much better just to have a good faith relationship where workers and employers benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8359f9dd5c24b75862796734be14335\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: How will bargaining be more efficient, as he claims, if every district health board decides to abandon its multi-employer collective agreements for doctors, nurses, and service workers, and negotiate hospital by hospital, as they did in the past?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d55410892446978a92965393460bef\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: The member well knows there is still good faith, there is still freedom of association, and there is still absolutely collective bargaining, and a role for unions, in everything in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcab4153b2eb45a6a71cbbd50c34e2dd\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that workers think they will be better off; if so, why does he think that 1,500 workers in Wellington, 5,000 workers in Auckland, and 1,200 workers in Christchurch have attended rallies to tell him he is wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216abc72805024f5089faab8e525b5cdb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, overall they will be better off, because we will have a more productive and a more businesslike working environment. But the fact of the matter is that with a union membership in this country of nearly 400,000, actually the numbers she and her lot managed to get out were stuff-all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9257997949e4f2fa10edc5097072a9a\u0022\u003EAged Care, Residential\u2014Access to Audit Information\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa58b376e6d648de910981a8ced3b348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa58b376e6d648de910981a8ced3b348\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What recent announcements has she made regarding publication of rest home audit information on the Ministry of Health website?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u002247701c923e934061a929b1a4d464b26e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247701c923e934061a929b1a4d464b26e\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday I announced that from November the Ministry of Health will be trialling a new system giving people access to full rest home audit reports, in addition to improved audit summaries. The ministry\u2019s website will also now show whether a rest home has any current problems and what is being done to fix them. It will also have historical audit summaries going back to 2009. These will be published so that people can see what progress has been made and whether there are any ongoing issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a83d482f1a74915ad34ee005afb4074\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government providing more information about rest homes to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed0594af0b8d4e7abb373fc3fa588acf\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: As well as continuing to improve the quality and safety of rest homes, the Government wants to make sure that families who have a relative living in a rest home, or are considering their options, can quickly and easily access the information they need to make a choice or a decision for them. This announcement adds to the initiatives we have already taken, including publication of audit summaries online, introduction of spot audits, third-party accreditation of auditors, and rolling out the interRAI comprehensive assessment tool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022778474eaeb5649d68d9b0d38753c55d9\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Will follow-up audits be carried out to ensure identified deficiencies are corrected and then reported on online?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b8a173af274771b5de2c6f3235bfe5\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Most certainly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de8cd74c197848e8a80cec67c2dcb2a7\u0022\u003EWanganui Collegiate School\u2014Integration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002236e901a2dd63455787b001bea50aae82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236e901a2dd63455787b001bea50aae82\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by her statement with regards to Wanganui Collegiate that \u201Cintegrating the school will ensure\u2026that a Collegiate education is available to a wider number of students\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd64052767a34e00b56c4894164df3a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd64052767a34e00b56c4894164df3a5\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE (Associate Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Education: Yes; because it is self-evident that the integration of Wanganui Collegiate School increased the State integration options available to families that reside in the Whanganui-Rangit\u012Bkei area. I acknowledge, however, that it is still very early days. The school has been integrated for less than a year. It is important to note that the proprietor has made a commitment to making this happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aebb20edd4b5444092bd5b03c06c85a3\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When she signed off the decision to integrate Wanganui Collegiate, had she read the Ministry of Education\u2019s advice on the financial implications for the Crown, which stated that the approximate additional cost to the Crown if the school was to integrate would be over $3 million annually in staffing and operational funding costs, and does she believe that this constitutes value for money, given that this works out to be a bill of over $440,000 per student for the additional seven students who are going to have day places at Wanganui Collegiate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e0eec166f104755b9660b0fbe7ebde2\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: There were three parts to that. In terms of the last part, I disagree with the number that the member quoted. In terms of the other part of the question around cost, I am aware that the cost of integration is about $3 million. But can I say this: members opposite say that they care about the provinces and say that they back the provinces and its communities, but when it comes to a school that has contributed significantly to the local economy, in this House they do not back them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bda5064abfbb41c7ae81e8bd1d316182\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to help the Minister out. I seek leave to table three documents. The first is a Ministry of Education briefing specifying the cost of over $3 million annually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe73ac71036b45bbbf3e593ca16b6f1c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is described. What is the second document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c405a93cd7447ffa47f8dd8e7457140\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: The second document is the aide-m\u00E9moire stating that the roll for day students pre-integration was 143, and the third is the integration agreement, which shows that, post-integration, the roll is 150.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc29321ff1c342329a6b712e84040181\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those three documents. Is there any objection? There is none. They can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233897b8d15e34d30bc3063dd22735499\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen Wanganui Collegiate School\u2019s enrolment scheme, which provides that where there are more applicants who live in the area than places available, priority will be given to siblings of current pupils, then children of employees and board members, then siblings of past pupils, then children of past pupils, and only then to other children living in the area; if so, does she believe that her decision to integrate the school means that a Wanganui Collegiate education will be available to a wider number of students, or is it simply going to remain a school for the wealthy and the privileged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c518dc5b21a4995b4bd8bbe806bf41c\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; and yes. Can I also say that the proprietor has committed, via an agreement, to broadening the availability of its quality education and special character to more families from a wider range of circumstances. I do note that when you look at the breakdown of the cost, you see that, currently, the maximum attendance dues are $2,760. I think the member opposite needs to give this school time, and I do back the integration of this school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b4c7a696ef4ce4a3c91d42f4e45d5d\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has the Minister seen on Wanganui Collegiate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245836a67a4bd45b2a9df3578375fe3b9\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a statement that said: \u201CIt was very important for this district that integration was granted ... I am very pleased that it has been.\u201D This person went on to say that he hoped that the four other State secondary schools in Whanganui were also looked after: \u201CThere are top local secondary schools here.\u201D That was Hamish McDouall, Labour candidate for Whanganui. The reality is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e1ebeac203d4192a4b58c50b7ec4596\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When she signed off the decision to\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ca5b83f872409194ccbaabfb052d95\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! Supplementary question\u2014will the member start again, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200051b50ee4f43a6a73e937bc2a359a9\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When she signed off the decision to integrate Wanganui Collegiate, had she read the Ministry of Education\u2019s advice that Wanganui Collegiate does not make a significant contribution to raising achievement for priority groups\u2014M\u0101ori and Pasifika learners with special education needs or learners from low-income backgrounds\u2014and that integrating the school is not making the best use of educational resources for this area and will not contribute to raising the quality of education for learners in the Whanganui area to any extent; if so, does she still believe that her decision to integrate the school means that a Wanganui Collegiate education is available to a wider number of students, or is it just going to remain a school for the wealthy and the privileged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240fb4df943994ad4830950a4ca485c7b\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of reading that document, because I am answering on behalf of the Minister, I obviously cannot answer that question. In terms of the other two parts to the question, I am advised that this school is a high-achieving school. I am also advised that there were a number of documents that were saying that achievement is good but also that the benefit to the local economy was significant, and that in terms of the other criteria taken into account, many boarders across New Zealand will have access to the school. So there are huge benefits from integration. I support the integration of the school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a25d665072c4b5a9155e1a13cb54845\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen the reports that the school fees for day students at Wanganui Collegiate School in 2013 are $10,900, over $1,000 more than they were before integration; if so, does she believe that her decision to integrate Wanganui Collegiate School, which has led to its fees going up and only seven additional day places being made available, is going to lead to a wider number of students getting access to a Wanganui Collegiate education, or is it just going to remain a school for the wealthy and the privileged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b485c850390433bbf2e1be90d7b10eb\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member does make some incorrect assumptions there. Secondly, what I would say to the member is that, in terms of the fees situation, I am aware that the attendance fee is the only part that is actually compulsory. In terms of those other fees, the meals charge is for voluntary good. The other charges are in the donations category, and parents are free to choose whether they pay at all. What I would say is that the member is out there saying that this is not a good integration, but at the end of the day, it is early days. There were many wider benefits for this integration, and he is being very, very\u2014I think\u2014dodgy in terms of the statements that he is using, because we know what the real figures are in terms of what is compulsory and what is a donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b89d64d53e464f62b01a3273a5741a37\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When she said that those additional fees were voluntary and parental contributions were voluntary, did she realise that those voluntary fees include meals, house activities, and supervision? If the family of a day student chooses to purchase these goods and services, then they are required to pay for them. Therefore, if a family does not purchase these goods and services, then the proprietor is not required to provide the student with meals, house activities, or supervision. Does that mean that the children of those parents who are unable to pay the $5,200 parental contribution will not be supervised and will not be able to attend house activities, a requirement of the school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b573f52bb5c4b3cbad083495d771ac7\u0022\u003EHon NIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, this is the breakdown: the attendance due is compulsory for parents. The meal charge is for a voluntary good; that is, if parents agree that their child will eat the school\u2019s meals, then fair enough, but parents must have that choice. The charge cannot be levied automatically. All other charges are in the donations categories, and parents are free to choose whether to pay all, some, or none of them. The Ministry of Education will monitor this very closely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f662c6ba3394e26849bdb8be09da52b\u0022\u003EBorder Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222292244476b441439cf00353e05ce971\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000517\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed1dd67167d5489f989df8841daf45a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed1dd67167d5489f989df8841daf45a5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Before question time, we were debating this riveting piece of legislation called the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. The bill amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996 and the Biosecurity Act 1993 to support the implementation of the Trade Single Window component of the joint border management system. These are ideas and concepts that were introduced initially under a Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis is not hugely controversial legislation. Labour is intending to support it. But, lo and behold, when the bill came up for its first reading, who was the Minister moving the first reading motion? It was Craig Foss, the Minister who was responsible for Novopay. The joint border management system is an IT system. It is designed to replace outdated systems in the Customs Service and in biosecurity in the Ministry for Primary Industries. When I saw Craig Foss, the man responsible for the debacle over Novopay, get up to move the first reading of this bill, I almost recommended to Rino Tirikatene that we change our mind on whether we support it, because after that debacle, how could we have confidence in this IT system, which is in fact the biggest single investment, probably, ever made by the Customs Service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E A year after Novopay there are still bungles that have not been sorted out, and we have spent tens of millions of dollars more than was budgeted for a system that has failed. So how could we have confidence in this system? Then I read that the actual IT agency that is supplying the goods is IBM. IBM is the agency that about 12 years ago was responsible for the police INCIS system. The police INCIS system\u2014I think you, Mr Speaker, were here at the time\u2014cost $100 million, and at the end of it they threw it away. That was $100 million of wasted investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBetween the combined influence of Craig Foss and the track record of the National Government, time and again getting it wrong, I wondered whether we should be supporting this legislation. Look, let us be fair about it. Labour brought about the introduction of this legislation. It is designed to give the Customs Service and the Ministry for Primary Industries better information and risk assessment tools for targeting higher-risk trade and passengers. For Mr John Hayes, who said that this had nothing to do with people, I note that the joint border management system, of course, does include passengers, though this tranche deals with goods and services. I am particularly worried as to whether this legislation, which is inherently good legislation, will be undermined by cuts that are being made to border security and biosecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMr Hayes shakes his head, but in 2009 that Government sacked 54 biosecurity officers from around the airports and the ports of this country. That was in 2009. In 2010, 18 months later, we had Psa in this country. Psa has cost this country tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars, and John Hayes knows that. So what I want to say to this Government is that it is penny wise and pound foolish. It will try to make cost cuts to save a little bit of money in the short term, only to find that the long-term costs and risks to this country are immense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThen we saw the Budget this year, and in terms of biosecurity the Government had chopped another $6 million. You can bring in whatever border security IT system you like, but if at the same time you are undermining biosecurity by cutting costs and cutting the officers who are working hard to protect New Zealand, its agriculture, its exports, and its lifestyle, then you are wasting your money on this legislation. So I ask the Government how we can be confident that we will not see further botch-ups, because at the same time as we are introducing this legislation, we have seen restructuring of the Ministry for Primary Industries and the Food Safety Authority. At the same time that that was happening, we saw an unprecedented failure in terms of quality assurance about our export goods on dicyandiamide, on botulism\u2014or the suspected botulism\u2014on nitrates, and on meat exports that sit on the wharves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI say again to this Government that, yes, it has been smart enough to pick up Labour\u2019s idea on this legislation, but not smart enough to stop cost cutting where it affects New Zealand\u2019s vital interests, and not smart enough not to restructure departments so that they no longer work. The Food Safety Authority is a classic example of that. I could talk about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which lost its key trade negotiators, Mr Hayes, and now John Key is saying \u201CMaybe we\u2019ve got to go out and recruit some.\u201D Of course you have got to go out and recruit some, because the botched restructuring saw some of the best people\u2014and Mr Hayes knows this to be the truth\u2014in the trade negotiation area lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe Trade Single Window as a concept is a good idea. It will enable businesses to complete border requirements for customs, food, and biosecurity purposes through one electronic transaction. It will make compliance easier. It is better at providing risk-related information, and for that reason Labour will support this bill, despite the bungling and the botch-ups of the Government, which has done so much damage in other areas of biosecurity and trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u002296467af99ce5450a954b74db295ef6c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296467af99ce5450a954b74db295ef6c8\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the first reading of the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. New Zealand is a trade nation. Trade is essential to our economy. The National-led Government has done, or has been doing, whatever it can do to promote New Zealand trade and to help our traders. This bill is yet another example. Our trade has been growing. For example, we have a plan to double our trade with China from $10 billion in 2010 to $20 billion in 2015. We are confident that we will be able to achieve that goal. This bill is an omnibus bill. It amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996 and the Biosecurity Act 1993 to support the implementation of the Trade Single Window component of the new $89 million Joint Border Management System, or the JBMS. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThe changes in this legislation are important because they will increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the Acts. The Joint Border Management System is a joint initiative by the New Zealand Customs Service and the Ministry for Primary Industries to replace current information systems. A more efficient and effective system will result as border clearance processes for persons, goods, and craft are modernised and combined. The Trade Single Window component of the system provides a single electronic gateway for industry to interact with Government agencies for their customs and biosecurity requirements. New Zealand\u2019s border will be better protected and a smoother flow of legitimate trade will be ensured. So there is no impact on people travelling in and out of the country, because the changes relate to the importing and exporting of goods and the arrival and departure of craft only.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E The amendments in the bill fall into three categories: first, registering users of the Joint Border Management System, which will provide for a wider range of border requirements; second, providing information to and receiving information from the Trade Single Window, which will adopt the World Customs Organization\u2019s international data model; and, third, consequential changes to offences, which include failing to comply with the new requirements and failing to update the Customs Service with the correct information. Building a more productive and competitive economy is one of the National-led Government\u2019s priorities. Supply chain efficiencies from the Joint Border Management System are estimated to deliver benefits to the economy of at least $450 million over 10 years, which is good news for New Zealand. I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002253a44bd9d9a248a7a36df9bbee80a865\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a44bd9d9a248a7a36df9bbee80a865\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the honourable member, can I just ascertain whether this is a 5-minute call, a split call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226003bee93b2d40cbb7383f15268e12d7\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u00221e3d7fa3aba945c1b8784c1d5ad23175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e3d7fa3aba945c1b8784c1d5ad23175\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E It is an honour to take a short call to speak on the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. Labour supports this bill, and I welcome it going to the select committee where, no doubt, it will be scrutinised, tested, and enhanced for fit for purpose. For the benefit of viewers and listeners at home, can I remind us all that the intent or the purpose of the bill is to amend the Customs and Excise Act of 1996 and the Biosecurity Act of 1993 to support the implementation of the trade single window component of the Joint Border Management System. To that end, can I commend this side of the House for conceiving the Joint Border Management System initiative, and this is why Labour is supporting this bill to the select committee. What is the single trade window? It creates a hub for exchanging information. I particularly want to acknowledge previous speakers who talked about front-line staff ensuring that our borders are secure, particularly our biosecurity systems, because, as previous speakers have said, our reputation as being a green, safe economy is important to our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI particularly want to talk about two areas that were raised by previous speakers. One is the IT reputation of the system that is being put before us in this bill. I too share some of the concerns that the Hon Phil Goff mentioned in this House around the debacle with Novopay and in particular with INCIS. When reading that this initiative is to create a one-stop shop of intensive data-sharing, it did give me some concern to ensure that we do not fall down that trap of what happened with INCIS and Novopay. This is why I again look forward to the bill going to the select committee, to get those assurances that that will not happen this time around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Mr Hayes for introducing this bill. He mentioned in his speech the advantage that this will bring to particularly cherry-growers and apple-growers. As the member for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti and coming from the fine Hawke\u2019s Bay where apples, amongst other things, such as wine, are grown, I too look forward to a bill that enables economic growth at the regional level. Can I share with the House that in my by-election days members of the Labour caucus were fortunate to meet with apple-growers, in particular with John Bostock from Hawke\u2019s Bay, who shared his views on economic growth, particularly in the apple-growing industry. He shared with us the hope of having expanding markets, land availability, and skilled labour. What I can respond to him is that we are introducing a Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill that will lead to economic growth. Hopefully, John will see the value in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWe also spoke to the owners of Apollo Apples Ltd\u2014one of the largest apple-growers in Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014and they shared their views on economic growth in the Hawke\u2019s Bay. They have got one of the largest cool-storing facilities in Hawke\u2019s Bay and it has been under-maximised. When we talk about benefits for apple-growers and cherry-growers, I want to bring to the attention of the House the need for regional development investment, particularly in the Hawke\u2019s Bay, to ensure that we can maximise the primary industry around apple-growing and that it is realised, which I completely support. Again, I stand in support of this bill and commend it to the select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022c47ea670341d4094bb382f7c2c1f4812\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c47ea670341d4094bb382f7c2c1f4812\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the first reading of the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. I would like to acknowledge my colleague John Hayes, who is the chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which will be receiving the bill. I am sure that the committee will be very happy to get this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E If we accept the fact that we are an export-based nation\u2014and we are\u2014and that 70 percent of our productivity is driven by the private sector, then this is actually a very, very good and important bill. One thing that we do face, as a small nation down the bottom of the world competing with the rest of the world, is our supply chain, the fact that we are further away, and, therefore, we do incur more costs, and, therefore, we have to be more efficient. I would just like to acknowledge our exporters and our private sector because they spend a fair bit of time and invest a fair bit of their own capital in making sure that we are competitive and that we do have an efficient supply chain. The Government should be doing its bit in supporting them, and this bill goes a long way to doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EFrom my own experience in the logistics industry there has been a lot of investment gone into very, very sophisticated programmes in partnership with companies like Microsoft, focusing very heavily on in-transit visibility. Of course, this bill has also got a flavour of that, in terms of exporters and importers being able to have visibility on where their freight and where their containers are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI would just like to focus in on the registering of users of the Joint Border Management System because really this is where the rubber hits the road for a lot of our companies, in terms of being able to streamline the process. Having had to deal with multiple agencies, they are now able to interface and deal with one agency. The Customs and Excise Act 1996 requires that all goods imported or exported must be entered into the customs computer system by individuals\u2014being importers, exporters, or their agents\u2014who are registered users of the system. The trade single window will provide for a wider range of border requirements. For example, registered users will be able to provide and receive information on the movement of their goods, streamlining the supply chains. That sort of comes back to what I was saying earlier about this in-transit visibility and actually how critically important that is. The bill amends several aspects of the Customs and Excise Act to ensure that there is an appropriate registration mechanism for access to and use of the Joint Border Management System. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe other thing that is actually really important about this bill is that there is a focus, of course, on making sure that our borders remain secure. We are very fortunate in many respects that we are an island nation. I have lived in countries where they have multiple shared borders, of course, and border security and biosecurity are always very, very big issues there, and costly in terms of trying to manage those. We are fortunate as an island nation that we are able to focus very carefully on how we do that ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe areas covered by the amendments include allowing companies to be registered users instead of individuals only, specific grounds on which the Chief Executive of the Customs Service can refuse an application are included, and allowing the Chief Executive of the Customs Service to issue unique user identifiers for the Joint Border Management System that can be used by both customs and the Ministry for Primary Industries for border-related purposes. Finally, I would just like to say again that this is a very, very good bill. I am sure that Mr Hayes and the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee are looking forward to receiving this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002260647826c52344ae8175fe15ee2dad0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260647826c52344ae8175fe15ee2dad0e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Hipkins for the balance of the 5-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0a51f1b22844ce583285949483d564e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0a51f1b22844ce583285949483d564e\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a short call on this bill, the Border Processing (Trade Single Window and Duties) Bill. Look, like every New Zealander I probably think most about border control when I am going through the airport, and going through Maurice Williamson\u2019s SmartGate. It is one of those terrible things to admit, but when I get off a long overseas flight one of the first people I think about is Maurice Williamson. I think about Maurice Williamson when I am going through the border and going through SmartGate. You will be pleased to know that the SmartGate technology has obviously improved considerably, because the first time I tried to go through SmartGate I failed and it would not let me through. I did not pass. But my most recent interactions with SmartGate, you will be pleased to know, were very, very positive, and I made it through. I was very relieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e5466eb35a45bcbfaf5789d926d0a7\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: That was your security profile, not the technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275af50f9c68e40eda5fd2203dedc0154\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that was the security profile. That is right, the Government Communications Security Bureau has been on to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBorder security is incredibly important to a country like New Zealand. To some extent, I guess, we are lucky in the sense that we do not have any other countries touching us. We do not have other land masses touching us. We are surrounded by a massive amount of water, so on one level that makes controlling our borders a little bit easier, but then on another level it creates a whole lot of challenges as well because we cannot patrol absolutely every beach and every potential area where somebody might try to come ashore in New Zealand. But I think that by and large we do a very good job of controlling New Zealand\u2019s borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons that border security is important, of course, is the significant biosecurity implication for New Zealand if things go wrong. We just cannot afford to get that wrong. We have an amazing advantage, I guess, in New Zealand in the fact that we are so isolated geographically as a country. That has meant that certain things have not spread to New Zealand, and we want to keep them out. There are a whole lot of pests and diseases and so on that we have managed to avoid having here in New Zealand, and we want to keep them out. That is where our biosecurity at the border is vitally, vitally important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo I am concerned. I share my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s concern about the cuts to biosecurity funding, because as we have seen just recently, New Zealand relies so much on our clean, green, 100 percent pure image. Any biosecurity incursion could do significant harm to that. If you take many of our primary producing exporters and the potential for significant economic harm to them from a biosecurity threat or a biosecurity risk, it is really, really important that we do not scrimp in this area in order to save a few dollars, which ultimately would be so detrimental and so expensive to the New Zealand economy should something happen, and should things go badly wrong. I think this is an area where we need to be very careful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut turning now to the bill that we are debating, the Labour Party supports this bill through its first reading and we are looking forward to the select committee process on the bill. I am sure my colleagues Damien O\u2019Connor, Shane Jones, and various others who have a real interest in this area will be getting into the detail at the select committee. We think that the front-line agencies, the border security agencies, do an absolutely amazing job. The Joint Border Management System initiatives were actually conceived when Labour was last in Government. One of the things, I guess, that I always find interesting is that 5 years into my time in Parliament it is heartening to see how many initiatives simply span across all Governments, regardless of who the Government is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn an area like biosecurity where I think there is quite a lot of bipartisan agreement, this initiative has obviously been going on for some time and we continue to support it. A single trade window will create a hub for exchanging information. In areas like border security and biosecurity the exchange of information is vitally, vitally important. It will introduce the first wave of a major information technology overhaul to replace existing outdated systems and modernise and integrate border clearance processes for persons, goods, and crafts. This is people going through the airport but it is also all the ships coming in. It covers quite a variety of things coming into the country, which is very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe need to make sure that we get this right. I think Phil Goff made a comment before about the fact that the IT systems that will have to be put in place in order to make this work should not turn out to be another Novopay or another ACC debacle. We have got to make sure with these information and communications technology projects that we get them right. I am not convinced yet that the Government has sufficiently robust mechanisms in place to ensure that the significant investments in information and communications technology and information sharing are actually going to run smoothly and efficiently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520e22125a1c4fca85ec98fba9cb0eb6\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, thanks Chris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e6ba059965042aaa8418a3a83883809\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased that the Attorney-General has been listening very closely to every contribution, and I look forward to seeing the passage of this through its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022088ef5011de94430948c56baff19d974\u0022\u003ESocial Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e321b540cfb4dc2a0dff87bf6450cb6\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00229f9945b8435f4dcabcf6a16419164c90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f9945b8435f4dcabcf6a16419164c90\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services Committee to consider the bill. New Zealand has a welfare system we can be proud of. It is a safety net that is there for those in need. Although we might debate the details of our system, we are all proud that, as a society, we look out for each other. The overwhelming majority of people receiving welfare assistance do the right thing and follow the rules. Unfortunately, a tiny few see our welfare system as a target. They put their own greed first. They take money they are not entitled to, and in doing so undermine the entire welfare system. As a Government we have a responsibility to the taxpayer whose money funds the welfare system. That is why this Government has taken action against welfare fraud. This bill is part of a package of measures that this Government is putting in place to prevent and detect welfare fraud and hold offenders to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThis bill deals with one particularly troubling aspect of welfare fraud, which we refer to as relationship fraud. Relationship fraud is when someone is receiving a benefit that is dependent on them being single, such as a sole parent support\u2014the old DPB\u2014yet they are in a marriage-type relationship. In this case, their relationship is not simply part of their private life; they are being given money by the taxpayer based on that fact. By failing in their obligations to tell the Ministry of Social Development or even lying to hide their relationship, they continue to receive money that they are not entitled to. The reality of this offending is that it can occur only when the partner is present, but it takes two to tango. The current law means that the beneficiary, usually the woman, is held accountable for her fraud, while the partner often gets off scot-free. We say this is wrong. This bill will create a new offence to hold those partners to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThese changes strike a careful balance. They recognise that new relationships are never simple. When a partner is genuinely unaware of the fraud, they will not be liable. But if the partner knew about the fraud or turned a blind eye to it, they will be held to account for their part in the crime. I want to make it clear that these changes will not disadvantage women in a violent relationship. Ministry of Social Development investigators are extensively trained to deal sensitively with violent relationships, and the law on this point is clear that violence in a relationship will often mean it is not, for welfare purposes, a relationship in the nature of marriage. The last thing we want to do is to remove the financial lifeline that might help a battered woman extract herself from that situation. These changes will not remove this protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWelfare fraud is not a small deal. Last year over 950 people were convicted of fraud, with debt totalling over $26 million established. A further $22 million of overpayments was established from investigations. Relationship fraud accounted for more than half of this $48 million debt. It made up approximately one-third of all welfare fraud prosecutions. These numbers are rising. Our reforms are delivering real results, as we catch fraud that we might never have caught before. Even more encouraging is the increase in prospective savings\u2014money that would have been taken illegitimately that we were able to stop before it went out the door. Our more proactive measures have pushed this saving from $84 million in the 2011-12 year to $109 million in the 2012-13 year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EYet there has been criticism from some that we should not be focusing on welfare fraud. They attempt to draw misleading comparisons with tax fraud and evasion, to distract from the very real drain on the taxpayer. The tax and welfare systems work in different ways, with different clients for different purposes. To portray them as apples with apples comparisons is deceptive, so let us get a few things on the record. It is a big Government. We can do more than one thing at a time. Tax fraud is a bigger problem than welfare fraud, and no one is disputing that. That is why we put far more effort into combating tax fraud than welfare fraud. Any suggestion to the contrary is shown by the numbers to be patently false. The Government spends more than four times as much pursuing tax debt than it does pursuing welfare debt. Over the past 4 years we have invested almost $200 million of new funding into the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s compliance activities. None of this needs to distract from taking responsible, sensible steps to protect our welfare system from those who would take advantage of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a few other changes to the way the Ministry of Social Development manages debt. Prosecuted fraud\u2014debt owed to the ministry\u2014stands at over $120 million. Yet a series of recent High Court cases have provided different views on the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s power to recover debt. Not unreasonably, New Zealanders expect that that debt owed to the Crown will be recovered. The law needs to be clear about this. The bill imposes a duty on the Ministry of Social Development to take all reasonable and practical steps to recover debt. There remains discretion to determine on a case by case basis the method and rate of recovery. In exceptional circumstances, debt recovery may temporarily be deferred. Decisions about the method and rate of recovery and deferral will be subject to ministerial direction. This will allow us to ensure we recover money owed, without placing people in undue hardship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWe know that the vast majority of people receiving welfare support are honest. It is wrong of a dishonest few to hide amongst them. This bill will help us bring those dishonest few to account, and it will protect the welfare system from those who really need it. I want to congratulate those officials from the Ministry of Social Development who assisted in the preparation of this bill, formulating the policy into the bill as it finds itself today. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00220ef6d819901942a780493518c784a2fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ef6d819901942a780493518c784a2fd\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to rise and follow on from the Associate Minister for Social Development the Hon Chester Borrows on the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill, which has been brought before the House. I want to say up front that I appreciate the time that the Minister gave to me personally to give me some extra breakdown details on the bill and how he foresees it working. We have already said that Labour will support this bill to the Social Services Committee, but we said at the very beginning that we feel like there are some inconsistencies with different forms of treatment of fraud, and we wanted to see whether or not this was an opportunity for us to even up that playing field. That is something we will pursue through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think with debates like this that it is always important to set up from the outset the general principles and values that you want to apply, before then setting out the way that you are going to anticipate the policy working. First and foremost, we would like to get on the record that fraud, wherever it exists, is wrong\u2014bottom line. There is no dispute. Fraud, wherever it exists, is wrong. As the Minister has said, and I agree, fraud within the benefit system is also particularly destabilising, because fraud in that system undermines the entire system for those who need it most, and that is why it does need to be weeded out. Equally, it then tars other clients with a very unfair brush, as does an individual who does not fulfil their obligations to try to seek work. That then tars other people with an unfair brush, as does a Minister characterising people in the system in an unfair way. I think it would be disingenuous not to imply that there are times in this House when people who access Government support through a genuine need and legitimate reasons are unfairly portrayed. So that is why we treat these issues with a lot of caution, and we seek that members treat fraud across the board in an even-handed way. It is for that principle, which I have already outlined, that we see it as important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIn that regard, fraud, where it exists in our tax system, must always be pursued, because just as fraud within social security undermines the system for everyone else, fraud and tax evasion undermines the principle that we all have a collective responsibility to contribute to the ability to run this nation, to build the roads, to build the schools, to build the housing system\u2014all of those universals that we consider so important. But not all fraud is treated equally. Why should it not be? If we are saying that in principle they both undermine a system, then, surely, we should be treating them equally. There are provisions in this bill that will not apply across the board, and, yet, they are lowering a threshold, the test, for prosecution. That is why we want to ask the question: why are we not treating them the same? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere are some differences. Scale is one of them. As I said, fraud everywhere should be pursued, but there is certainly a gap in the amount that is being pursued or at least in our success in prosecuting and reacquiring money that is lost through tax evasion and fraud. Just a comparison: $39 million in the benefit system and it is more like $1 billion as an estimate within our tax system. So that is certainly an area on which we would like to hear a bit more of a public conversation from the Government in terms of how we can do better in that area. Do not drop, either. That is not what we are saying. But why, when we have had two debates now on fraud within the benefit system, have we not had one on this other area where there is so much more work to be done? That is something we implore the Government to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI have heard it argued, though, that it is unfair to compare benefit fraud with tax fraud and tax evasion, because tax evasion is evasion, and it is not fair to strictly label that as fraud. But it is fair to say that that exact thing has been happening with some of the announcements that the Minister has been trumpeting. Not so long ago we heard him point out that great swathes of fraud had been uncovered as a consequence of the Inland Revenue Department sharing information with the Ministry of Social Development. The issue is that not all of that necessarily was fraud. Some of it, indeed, will be, but some of it is just highlighting the blatant inefficiency of our system. It is highlighting where there had been overpayment. Why was that? Well, because a large number of people who are getting Government support are actually in work. They are just not earning enough to survive week to week, so their earnings are topped up with a benefit of some description. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIn order to make sure that someone who is working different hours every single week is not being topped up by too much or too little, they are required to call Work and Income at the end of each week, usually a Friday, and state the hours that they have worked. The issue, as anyone will know who has worked somewhere like a supermarket or a fish and chip shop, like I have in the past, is this: I did not always get my payslip at the end of the week, telling me the hours I had worked. I would carefully take down what I thought I had done, but they were not always necessarily the same thing, and that is what is happening with our Work and Income clients. They are calling based on what they know, but sometimes they are in precarious seasonal work with fluctuating hours and fluctuating overtime and changing rates, and they are not always giving the correct details to Work and Income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhen Work and Income staff then go and do that data match, they find that sometimes there are discrepancies. At various points we had up to 20 percent of our sole parents in part-time work. We are not talking about a small group of people, where this potential error can take place. So all I ask from the Minister is that the next time he does a data-matching exercise, rather than standing up and trumpeting the amount of fraud he has weeded out, perhaps we could talk about the fact that not all fraud is deliberate; some of it is the inefficiency of our system. Can we address that? Can we address the fact that I have Work and Income clients who come and tell me that Work and Income found it so difficult to manage their\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8db3360026d4475897b999bec440f60\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not mean to interrupt the member, but she is clearly getting away from the context of this bill. You allow her to go a little bit away, but for 2 minutes now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a35100187ca4c03b0bffb8baad22034\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am on my feet. All contributions will be heard, and the member is making some valid points and it is a debatable issue. This is a wide-ranging debate. It is the first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c961eb2649af43ceb56e82da9c2c51c0\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That intervention just demonstrates that the chair of the Social Services Committee does not understand the driving forces between overpayment and what has been characterised by his Government as fraud. If we want to fix the amount of time that is wasted by the Ministry of Social Development pursuing overpayment, which is sometimes confused as fraud, then these are the issues we need to deal with. So I would hope that we would have a little more enlightenment by that side of the House during this debate. Otherwise we are going to miss that, actually, in some cases we are targeting the wrong issue. It is a very valid point to raise in the context of this bill. I am sure that the officials will talk about the fact that they spend a lot of time trying to filter between overpayment and fraud, and that is the issue I was speaking to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESo getting back to it, once the Ministry of Social Development has gone through that process of it trying to, once it has seen the discrepancies, filter out which is which, it then needs to go and pursue them. It is an issue around the amount of effort that it then goes into, relative to some of the other areas of fraud that we have within our system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne of the things we do want to accept on this side of the House, though, is that relationship fraud probably represents a significant chunk. It is fair to say that there will be cases, and we are certainly aware of them from the side of advocates, that some women in particular are left carrying debt from relationship fraud that actually should be apportioned across to individuals who knowingly partook in that fraud. We also must acknowledge that some women are in relationships with a particular power dynamic as well, and we need to be mindful of that. Some women also have threats made against them that if they do not fraudulently claim these benefits, then their well-being is at risk. All of these things we have to take into consideration when we consider that this bill will amend the Social Security Act 1964 and enable a lower threshold for prosecution of partners when they have been involved in relationship fraud, by saying that they can be prosecuted when they ought to have known that fraud was taking place. So the test has been lowered. Our question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c82475c66544e1bd37035e9b17f2d6\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s still a high test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddec582a84d44cd083a609918896cfd4\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It is very difficult to prove whether someone ought to have known something, versus whether they did. It is. We are going to test that out at the select committee; it is something we need to look into in more detail. But our question is that if you are willing to say that someone who committed relationship fraud ought to have known that fraud took place because they benefited from it because there was more money coming into the household, why could you not say the same for white-collar fraud? If someone is benefiting from white-collar fraud because more money is coming into the household, why is it that a spouse in that case will not be liable for prosecution? That is the kind of question I had when I talked about the principles of treating fraud even-handedly. Those are the kinds of questions we will be raising at the select committee, and I hope the Government will take those queries seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022291d323c218c4f7298e33cd32b65704f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022291d323c218c4f7298e33cd32b65704f\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava and good afternoon to you and all those across the country who are listening in on this debate or watching it on TV. It is a pleasure to take a call on the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill. The last member, Jacinda Ardern, might have used a lot of superlatives, but she did not actually talk much about the bill. The bill puts in place new tools to prevent, detect, and catch welfare fraud. That is what we are talking about here today. It is not about business fraud, it is not about tax fraud; it is about welfare fraud. I want to thank the Associate Minister for Social Development the Hon Chester Borrows for the hard work that he has done on this bill, along with the officials, to bring about a bill that I think is measured, informative, and certainly will be workable going forward. As the chair of the Social Services Committee, I look forward to debating and examining some of the issues that are within this bill, and hearing from submitters from around the country about what they see as legitimate in terms of prosecuting and enforcing welfare fraud. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Social Development is owed a significant amount of money\u2014a significant amount of money\u2014from fraud-related debt, overpayments, and recoverable assistance. This is $128 million on convicted fraud alone\u2014$128 million. So I think we have to take this issue seriously. I know Ms Ardern mentioned that it should be even-handed and that we should look at comparisons between the various pieces of legislation, but one of the issues that she did not raise is that recent High Court decisions have questioned how the Ministry of Social Development applies discretion to recover welfare debts. Those decisions have created uncertainty about its powers and duties when recovering welfare debt. This bill addresses that. Our Government has decided to act, and I encourage parties across this House and I encourage all New Zealanders to get behind the bill, because the bill addresses the effect that those High Court decisions have on the ability of the ministry to prosecute fraud. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Social Security Act so that it imposes a duty on the Ministry of Social Development to take all reasonable, practicable steps to recover debt. I think that is reasonable, and I believe most New Zealanders would say it is reasonable. Secondly, the ministry has the discretion to determine, case by case, the method and the rate of recovery. Again, it is quite objective, and, I believe, quite simplistic and realistic in terms of what we are trying to achieve. In exceptional circumstances the ministry may defer temporarily that recovery of debt, so it has a social and empathetic element to it. The Minister is required to issue directions identifying those exceptional circumstances in which recovery may be deferred. But the bill also identifies, as the Minister has pointed out, the considerations to which the ministry must have regard in setting the rate and methods of recovery for those debts, and that is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe know that the vast majority of beneficiaries are honest and do the right thing, and I do not think anyone has mentioned that in the House today. The vast majority of beneficiaries actually have needs and have those needs met, but a small minority take advantage of the system. The Associate Minister has outlined the elements of the relationship fraud, which is a big part of that. Welfare fraud is a crime, welfare fraud is committed by criminals, and welfare fraud is done for their own benefit against the wishes and needs of New Zealanders, so we treat this fraud as a crime, without excuses. The bill introduces a new criminal offence for spouses and partners who benefit from welfare fraud. Those spouses must know, or are reckless, as to whether those payments are obtained by fraud. I put it to the member opposite Jacinda Ardern\u2014I know she is not present in the Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1b06167012f4d4780bdbdc2195a2e20\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will be seated. It is not proper that members refer to the absence of another because in this place all of us at one time or another have to leave the Chamber for whatever reason. That is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b396a4598da24d1498ed53087bca5b6a\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: We know that the evidentiary burden is a high-threshold test. She stated in this House that it is low; I beg to differ. I beg to differ, because it requires a mens rea\u2014a criminal mind\u2014and the evidentiary burden is clear. They need to know, or ought to have known. I do not believe that is unreasonable in the circumstances, because an objective set of facts can be presented where you can assess whether that person ought to have known that the fraud had been committed. Partners could face a fine of up to $5,000, or 12 months in jail. We will debate whether that sentence is appropriate, but I think that, in the circumstances, that is reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EIn 2013 relationship offending cost the taxpayer $26 million. That $26 million could have been spent on our most vulnerable families who are in genuine need of assistance. It is important that the public has every confidence in the welfare system, and these measures will give the ministry the tools to achieve this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that welfare will always be there to support people who are in need in our communities. That is a basic tenet of our nation\u2019s social fabric. Equally, anyone who can work, should be in work, or looking for a job should do so. Our reform of the welfare system in the last 2 years will bring into the 21st century what we believe has been an outdated system. Labour\u2014Ms Ardern and her mates\u2014might have turned a blind eye to fraud in welfare, but National has promised to clamp down on welfare fraud, and with this bill we are delivering on that promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022db80aca51b1a468bb5c0717928594957\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db80aca51b1a468bb5c0717928594957\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Namaste, Mr Assistant Speaker. Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to take a call on the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Bill. As my colleague Jacinda Ardern has already said, we will support this bill to the Social Services Committee, but I personally will want to be convinced at the select committee that what is being proposed here will achieve the goals that the bill has set out and will not do more damage to our vulnerable families. The way this bill was presented, the genesis of the bill, and the way these ideas were announced were very cynical. It was at a time when National\u2019s dodgy Skycity deal was getting a rough time in the media. Right in the middle of that, the Hon Chester Borrows announced this notion of major fraud amongst beneficiaries, mainly former domestic purposes beneficiaries\u2014so it was cynical. It was a cynical way of introducing that. This is not part of a programme to really address this issue; this was something that was whipped out of the air. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe way in which the chairperson of the Social Services Committee, Mr Sam Lotu-Iiga, has articulated the provisions here really shows that he has become a poster boy for this Government\u2019s punitive provisions around the most vulnerable. This is just another step in a long line of steps that this Government, since 2009, has taken by heaping obligation after obligation on the most vulnerable. It is not really designed to achieve the best out of the most vulnerable, although that is the language the Minister uses, but it is designed to pander to the members of that particular party who are really hostile to benefits, generally. All of the language is fine, saying that welfare will always be there and we will always support those who are most vulnerable, but the way that this Government has gone after the most vulnerable in reform after reform really demonstrates its true intent, and this one is no different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern identified very, very clearly that, clearly, this Government is not worried about the amount of money, because if it was, it would go after the $1 billion to $6 billion tax problems we have in this country. It would go after that, or it would go harder after those who are tax dodgers at the present time, but it does not do that. It does not do that. It goes for the most vulnerable. The rate of taxation fraud is 150 times more than the rate of welfare fraud, so here it is not convincing that there is a major problem, because the major problem here is actually a moralistic one. There is something about the morals. We question the morals of those who seemingly take advantage of the welfare system, and this side of the House has no sympathy for those who abuse the welfare system\u2014we have no sympathy for those people\u2014but the way in which it comes about also needs to be reflected on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe way in which Sam Lou-Iiga talked just then about welfare fraud amongst domestic purposes beneficiaries, which is the former title, really shows very little understanding of how this actually works. Anybody who has worked in this area or who knows this community well knows how quickly it is possible to give to a person\u2014maybe a mother looking after two or three children who is dependent on a benefit\u2014going about normal life, and how quickly others can malign that as an abuse of the welfare system because that person might be wearing good clothes, might be having a drink, might have a colour television, etc. Anything that person does that gives the impression there is a relationship that that person has creates this notion of setting family against family. We begin to attack those who are trying to get on with their lives as sole parents dependent on a benefit, doing the best they can, and doing those things that most people in this House would consider normal, such as forming relationships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe Minister did say in his preliminary remarks that he was particularly worried about relationship fraud. That essentially means that if you a person who is dependent on a benefit and have children, you virtually have no right to have relationships. That is what it comes down to, and what is the morality of that? Would we not want our sole parents bringing up children to have the normal relationships that any adult would have? How does it work? We can just think our way through this. If a person is a sole parent who has children and who is doing their best forms a friendship with somebody, they might see that person a few times a week, and then that may develop over a 4 or 5-month period into something a little bit more than that\u2014maybe visits to the home. In another 3 or 4 months\u2019 time there may even be a night that that person might spend at the home of the person who is on a benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EAt what point does that become a relationship for which the other person\u2014the person not on a benefit\u2014is then responsible financially? At what point does that happen? This happens in the glare of public life. If you live in a neighbourhood that is hawkish about others, and if you have people who are hawkish about a particular person, then this creates an environment in which those bringing up our children in vulnerable environments, vulnerable situations, and who are dependent on limited State funding are really made more vulnerable by these kinds of provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is not as if there are no other ways of doing this. Every person on a benefit has a case manager. There are many, many opportunities for conversations, there are many, many opportunities for asking questions, and yet the way in which these provisions have been brought to the House\u2014the way in which the notion of relationship fraud is talked about in this particular bill\u2014is something that I personally find objectionable. I personally find it divisive and I personally believe that it will set our families against each other. This happens, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. You know the environment in which people in your electorate survive, where there are many more people in these kinds of situations. That being so, we do know what happens. So I believe that the provisions are awful. I believe that they are not well-thought-through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWhat is more, it has gone on to criminalise the activity, so that the other person, the person whom the beneficiary is having a friendship with or a growing relationship with, is now accountable. If he or she carries on in that particular situation for any period of time and if the amount of payment grows, that person is liable to a fine of $5,000 or liable to imprisonment. When you compare that with the way in which tax dodgers are fined, there are any number of cases that show that for similar crimes the vulnerable are sent to jail and the rich get home detention, and that will be for defrauding amounts of money to the tune of three times more. A welfare beneficiary with a $70,000 crime, if you like, will be sent to jail for a year or two\u201418 months, I think, is the case that I am thinking about\u2014whereas somebody owing $200,000 to $300,000 gets sent home on home detention. Where is the fairness in that? When is this Government going to address those kinds of things as well? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThis is part of the Government\u2019s programme of welfare bashing, and in the select committee we will want to see what the evidence for this measure is. I would have expected some of the members of the select committee to be much more aware of this. I cannot imagine how Alfred Ngaro can support something like this, because he knows from his own work in the community about many of these families and about how these processes develop. I hope to see robust discussion. I personally am not supporting this bill after the next stage unless I am convinced that the safeguards are in place, because I personally find this absolutely abhorrent. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002220db4ddd1cc549eab4d685a8138bd2c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220db4ddd1cc549eab4d685a8138bd2c6\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. The Green Party has a long tradition in this House of advocating for employment law and a social security system that provides everyone with enough income to fully participate in their community and to live safe, healthy lives. We support policies that are sufficient to ensure this, simple to understand and access, universal in their application, and equitable within a wider social context. We will be opposing the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill today as it is not consistent with these values or this vision. This bill will, we believe, further stigmatise the most marginalised people in this country. It will remove some of the leniency that exists within the system, which will result in less money in the hands of the poorest New Zealanders. It will treat debtors to the Ministry of Social Development more harshly than debtors in other parts of our system and our society are treated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI would like, though, to acknowledge the Associate Minister for Social Development the Hon Chester Borrows, who has brought this bill to the House, for taking the time to talk with me through this bill, and for allowing us access to officials as well, in order to discuss our concerns and check out our position properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E This bill makes a range of changes to accountability and culpability for benefit fraud and debt recovery by the Ministry of Social Development, including imposing a new obligation on the ministry to take all reasonable, practical steps to recover debt. That is a very important point. And it allows the Minister for Social Development to issue directions on when the ministry may temporarily defer debt repayment and what it can take into account when setting the rate and method of debt recovery. Currently, this is the responsibility of the ministry, so it is shifting that from within the agency with the knowledge and experience and moving it into the political realm. In terms of debt this will enable the ministry to hold partners of beneficiaries liable when benefit fraud is committed. It will allow the recovery of up to three times the amount paid in excess in cases of fraud, and it introduces a new offence of partners knowingly or recklessly benefiting from fraud committed by their partner, punishable by a fine of up to $5,000 or 12 months\u2019 imprisonment. It introduces a new system for working with people who decided to be dishonest with the ministry in the past, regardless of whether they have a conviction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI really need to put those changes in context for those considering the bill and to point out that two-thirds of debt that the ministry recovers is not a result of fraud. So when we are hearing in this House that this is about fraud, actually two-thirds of the system is about debt, not fraud. Much of it is a result of administratively created overpayment, and our Labour colleague Jacinda Ardern, I think, quite clearly articulated how that happens. It is the interface between beneficiaries who are working part time and reporting that work and the systems through the Inland Revenue Department. It is actually often just about a mismatch of those systems rather than any intent at all. In fact, for most of these people in this situation it is absolutely not in their interests to end up with a debt or an overpayment and they would much prefer to avoid that situation. But our system does not work to enable that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAlso, what is recorded as debt in the system is often from advances given to people to pay for some of the absolute essentials in life, including things like fridges, washing machines, tampons, food, sanitary pads. Absolute basic essentials are part of what we are talking about when we are talking about this bill and the recovery of debt. It is also, I think, important in the context of this to recognise that beneficiaries are routinely being denied their legal entitlements. This debt pretends that that is not the case. Auckland Action Against Poverty is seeing an emerging gatekeeper culture within Work and Income. It has reported that people are often now being told no, as the first response from Work and Income staff, and that at least nine out of 10 people with whom its advocates work have been incorrectly or unfairly denied assistance. This is from those people being misinformed about their entitlements, whether it be a special needs grant, whether it be their eligibility for a benefit to begin with, or whether it be about coverage for disability costs or extra assistance for food\u2014a huge range of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe are hearing these reports all over the country and this raises the question of why this is happening, because we have been hearing these stories for a while and they are increasing, and there does seem to me to be a pattern. This Government and the one before it have focused their attention on saving money from the Budget. The latest law changes that we have seen have stigmatised beneficiaries further, sending the message that they are job-avoiding, drug-taking poor parents and criminals. You cannot send those messages and not have them influence staff and organisational culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EFurther, the legislation is far too complicated. It has been amended 131 times, it includes 422 sections and 31 schedules, and there are 50 policies that are at the discretion of the chief executive of the ministry rather than being enshrined in law. This makes this so hard for staff to know what people are actually entitled to. When you combine that with a loss of funding to so many of the benefits rights organisations that are able to provide advocacy for people going into the system\u2014and the cuts to legal aid for beneficiaries wanting to appeal their lack of entitlement\u2014we have a very dangerous system where the most vulnerable people in this country are having the food taken out of their mouths or the tampons in their trolleys illegally taken off them through a lack of entitlement. Yet the Government\u2019s focus is to bring this bill, which is focused on the recovering of the debt from the few people who have managed to get their entitlements to be able to feed their children, to be able to have a fridge in their house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfab229037af4e8baf5c5b9597444f88\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: \tWell, they just have to remain law abiding and it\u2019s all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ba1afe760d4787b3b6879f477c6106\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: This is not about criminality, Mr Sabin. This is about debt that is created through inefficient systems and people being ripped off by the system. And the Government chooses to focus, rather, on a very small group of people and not its own actions, which I would suggest is where the most harm is being done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI will note that there is an aspect of this bill that the Greens do support, or are interested in hearing more around, in relation to fraud, which is a small percentage of what we are actually talking about, and that is relationship fraud. I do note Dr Rajen Prasad\u2019s contribution. But I would note, from having worked in Women\u2019s Refuge, that I have seen so many cases of women being threatened by their partners, whereby their partners would threaten to dob them in to Work and Income. I do see that this provision of sharing the consequences of any dobbing in will have an impact that will be very positive for those women, that this may no longer be able to be used as a tool by those abusers. That is a very positive aspect of this bill that we do support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EHowever, the fraud investigation system is still quite fraught. Officials said that evidence they are using is often unsubstantiated, and we are hearing from women in violent relationships that they are often persecuted through this system. We do not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00222900d290dffc400f991a054231dbf36b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222900d290dffc400f991a054231dbf36b\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Ahn nyung ha se yo, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. It is a pleasure to rise in support of and talk about the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill in its first reading. Before I actually begin, I would like to just remind members that this bill brings in new tools to prevent, detect, and catch welfare fraud. I know that members opposite have talked about many things, including their notion of what this Government is all about in terms of welfare. Let me remind the members opposite that Labour, in its 9 years of Government, did nothing about welfare reform and this Government is spending more than $536 million in 3 years to reform welfare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThose members talk as if the National Party and this Government do not care about people on welfare and they talk about beneficiary bashing. Let me actually remind the members that if that was in fact the case, why are we still providing welfare for the most vulnerable in this country? It is the misconception that Opposition members like to tell the public so that they will be misinformed, as though we did not care about people. We on this side of the House do care about people. That is, I would have thought, a given, considering that we are doing something and spending a lot of money on welfare. [Interruption] We are. For example, welfare will always be there for people in our community who need it. It will be there for people who actually need it, but anyone who can work should really go out and look for a job. That is what we are saying. We are not saying that people who cannot work should work. People who cannot work, who actually need to depend on the benefit, will get the benefit. There should be no misconception about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis bill creates an offence for those spouses or partners of beneficiaries who have knowingly benefited from a beneficiary\u2019s fraud, and will allow the Ministry of Social Development to recover those debts more successfully by information sharing between Government agencies. Previously, what actually happened was that if the ministry suspected there was fraud, it had to tell the people whom it was investigating. The Ministry of Social Development was required to tell a person that they were being investigated for welfare fraud, and that person was required to provide the necessary information. Imagine that. If I was on welfare and someone had come and told me that I was being investigated, if I was an honest person\u2014which I am\u2014I would actually say \u201CWelcome. Investigate me.\u201D, but often they are not. A lot of people were given the opportunity for the fraud to be covered up and evidence often destroyed. That is not how it should happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis bill provides the ministry with the tools to investigate people who are actually offending. It is a criminal offence. They are defrauding the taxpayers of $128 million a year. That is no small sum that we should laugh at. Imagine how much more we could help people in vulnerable circumstances with that $128 million that is currently being defrauded. Partners of beneficiaries know of such fraud\u2014and often they do. They are living in the same house, often as husband and wife. They must know that their partner is on welfare. They must know that they are, actually, drawing from the Ministry of Social Development a sole parent benefit, for example. If they are living in a relationship that is like a marriage, they should not be drawing that benefit, and they are committing a fraud. If they know about it, they will be fined up to $5,000 or given a jail term of up to 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis bill also provides for review and appeal rights for spouses and partners. However, the vast majority of people declare their true circumstances and comply with their obligations. I think that is actually something we should expect of everyone. I know that Opposition members have also said it is only a small percentage of people who are on welfare who actually do, in fact, create this situation that tars everyone with the same brush. I think we need to make sure that we show them that it is not acceptable to defraud the taxpayer and that it is about time they changed. This is a great bill. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4e2e2e44c334f759972f1290fecc515\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4e2e2e44c334f759972f1290fecc515\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0101lofa lava, mal\u014D le soifua ma le lagi e mam\u0101 i lau afioga a le fofoga fetalai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286b3f04ca3774f4db2cb45114889e94d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Talofa lava.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c136708b9284098a01ec0bfa0e7f11b\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I start my speech here today, I want to perhaps respond to the comments by the member who has just taken her seat, Melissa Lee. The question she asked was why we are still paying benefits and welfare. Why are we still paying welfare? Well, the answer is that there are no blimmin jobs. There are quite a number of low wages. We also have broken promises, of course, poor legislation, and an incompetent Government. Is that enough to answer your question, Melissa Lee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ESo let me now come back to the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill. The bill is seeking to amend the Social Security Act 1964 to make spouses and partners, including beneficiaries, accountable for any fraudulent behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022773b3ef264cd41bcaa8a7e42b89e9bba\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member\u2019s microphone on? I can\u2019t hear! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b74b402d94ca4368b16758db58e0d25d\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: That is all that member can do\u2014he is chatting away in the corner. He has not got anything better to say. That is all he is good at. At the same time the bill will allow the Ministry of Social Development to recover debts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that welfare fraud is a serious matter. Something definitely needs to be done. Something needs to be done to combat fraudulent behaviour and tighten measures relating to debt recovery. Over $20 million was taken in the past year\u2014in fact, to be exact it was $23.4 million\u2014as a direct result of relationship fraud. Over $20 million is a lot of money. That is over $20 million of taxpayers\u2019 hard-earned money. OK, it is not as much as the $176 million that was taken by some directors of some finance companies from their stakeholders, but $20 million is still a large amount of public money that could have been made available for job creation. Over $20 million would certainly buy a lot of condoms for prostitutes or recreational items like the tampons or sanitary pads that the Minister for Social Development has been trying to defend lately. It would also be fair to say that half\u2014only half\u2014of that $20 million would certainly help those homeowners in Christchurch who have been badly affected by the earthquakes and are being given the run-around by the Government and insurance companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EHowever, New Zealand First is pleased to see that the National Government is perhaps trying to listen to the strong call from ordinary New Zealanders whom it has ignored for the past many years, although it seems it is far too slow in addressing the issues amicably. It was Thomas Jefferson, I believe, who said: \u201CExperience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.\u201D Given recent mishaps and broken promises by the National Government, I think we could afford to say to the Hon Chester Borrows that he is heading in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EOur current legislation makes the person receiving assistance liable for prosecution. It ignores his or her partner or spouse, which means he or she would be cleared of any wrongdoing, despite potentially having knowledge relating to fraudulent behaviour. This bill will ensure that the persons receiving assistance and their partners or spouses are liable. In other words, they will all be liable to be prosecuted for intentionally misleading the Ministry of Social Development\u2014or shall we say the welfare system\u2014in order to benefit from inheriting what they are certainly not entitled to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EGiven these reasons, there are questions that need to be asked. How will the debt be recovered? Are Chester Borrows\u2019 staff now going to force them to hand over funds in order to pay for it and subject their children or tamaiti, if any, to poverty? How is the Government going to ensure that money being lost through benefit fraud will be returned in a reasonable time frame or a reasonable manner? If this bill is to pass, the member in charge needs to be more transparent as to how it will be implemented and what the appropriate steps will be, just like the Labour MP Jacinda Ardern was referring to earlier on, about different earnings, different times, part-time work, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EJust last week a caregiver pleaded guilty to defrauding the benefit system by almost $274,000\u201454-year-old Beverley Malzard evaded disclosing information relating to her employment and was able to obtain a benefit in the process. Cases like this paint a very bad picture. That picture unfairly reflects on honest Kiwis out there who have genuine reasons for receiving benefits and who have taken reasonable steps towards employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EBenefit fraud is something New Zealand First does not take lightly. Benefit fraud is completely\u2014completely\u2014unacceptable. We want to ensure that the intentions of this bill will be implemented appropriately and with suitable mechanisms in place to ensure that they are carried out properly. This bill aims to make spouses or partners of benefit frauds criminally liable. We accept that that is fair. It will lead to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or imprisonment not exceeding 12 months. Ordinary Kiwis out there would like to see the penalties contained in this bill sufficient to deter potential fraudsters from committing benefit fraud. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe concerns that we do have over this bill include, first of all, how it will be rolled out; two, whether the proposed measures will be enough to deter fraudulent behaviour; three, whether it could potentially conflict with privacy laws; and four, whether it could foster a discriminatory environment on certain groups of people. Attempts definitely need to be taken so that public faith can be restored in the welfare system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThere is also a need to acknowledge that there are countless reasons behind benefit fraud. We need to ensure that we understand the possible circumstances that people are in when they contemplate fraudulent behaviour. Some of the reasons may include sudden redundancy or the inability to secure employment; changes to family circumstances\u2014for example, death or relationship breakdown; unstable relationships; and, perhaps, huge debts, poor financial literacy, and lack of experience in management and looking after their budgets. Let us face it: there are a few out there like that, and I do wonder whether Winston Churchill should be blamed for saying that perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right than to be responsible and wrong. In some cases, serious alcohol and drug abuse\u2014or shall we say addiction\u2014could also be contributing factors, while on the other hand there may be mental illnesses to be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227be8820374ee4777864ad30e988e111a\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Go on. Get off the fence!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9f214abb5445ed8d94953e0488b718\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR\u003C/span\u003E: I was discussing this bill with some of our community leaders, and Mike Sabin will actually learn something if he listens. They believe that it is timely that the law was reviewed to address benefit fraud. It is also fair to say that not everyone who is committing this kind of crime comes from low-income circumstances as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EFor these possible scenarios I believe that it is important that the Social Services Committee be given the opportunity to examine the bill carefully. New Zealand First will support this bill going to the select committee so that the public of New Zealand can be given the opportunity to submit on it, because they deserve the opportunity to be heard and they deserve to see democracy being given a fair go in this House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3524307ea38499283c356ae4118c107\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3524307ea38499283c356ae4118c107\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill, and I look forward to it coming to the Social Services Committee, which Sam Lotu-Iiga chairs. It has been a worthwhile exercise looking at this whole issue, and I would like to congratulate Chester Borrows on all the work that he and his department have done in actually tracking down cases in point where benefit fraud has occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIt is true that the New Zealand First Party can identify the odd case where fraud has occurred or, I should say, some sort of overpayment of benefit amount has occurred and it has been unfair that those people were pursued for fraud, because it was accidental or for reasons outside common dishonesty. However, $128 million is what was recently recovered through the efforts of Chester Borrows and his department. I know that in State housing it is not tens of houses that have been freed up for those genuinely in need because those inside were illegally in the State house, but hundreds of State houses have been freed up for families genuinely in need because those hundreds of houses were found to be occupied by fraudsters and others who were involved in illegal behaviour. So it is worth pursuing this particular matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIt has to be noted that, yes, the High Court has questioned how the Ministry of Social Development applies discretion to recover welfare debts. Some of them are racked up by fraud or the improper obtaining of benefits. But to ensure that there is effective debt recovery, we have made it clear in this bill that it imposes a duty on the Ministry of Social Development to take all reasonable practical steps to recover the debt. There is discretion to determine on a case by case basis the method of recovery so that we can take into account people\u2019s circumstances, as outlined by the Green Party and called for by New Zealand First, and in exceptional circumstances the Ministry of Social Development may defer temporarily the recovery of debt. So there is a whole lot of heart as well as good financial management and good financial responsibility that is going to be undertaken under this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAgain, I look forward to the bill hitting the select committee, our looking at it in detail, and taking submissions from those who receive the benefit, those who administer the benefit, and those who work with those who are in need of such benefit support. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00220d1898b65aac4cfc8e8eff230c4b3333\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d1898b65aac4cfc8e8eff230c4b3333\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f252e5520fdd4e5eaa9cbd63475b17de\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: O a mai oe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb90c5493414248a5b7bf1b8bf0cac4\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Manuia fa\u2019afetai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022250cbd4ba2d84c19a300e61105838e87\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Fa\u2019afetai lava.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470ba75c825149ac99b2b2a28fa510e0\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I found the earlier remarks by two of the Government backbenchers quite upsetting. They made wild and unsubstantiated claims about the welfare reforms, which to me revealed too much about themselves. It revealed their disconnection with the wider community. It also revealed that they have not read their own regulatory impact statement on the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill, which says that their reforms have gutted the welfare system. I would ask them to take some lessons from their own Associate Minister for Social Development Chester Borrows. He is a Minister who knows what this is all about. I agree with the Minister when he says that the New Zealand social security system has largely been a system that most Kiwis are proud of. I think for our country we have this view that we work, we pay our taxes, and through those taxes there is a safety net, so that when someone is unemployed, when someone is sick, when someone is disabled, or when someone reaches a certain age where they are too old or weak to work\u2014like some of the members of this House, without mentioning names\u2014at least there is a safety net. That has been the legacy of our social security system. I accept that it is only then natural that when someone rips off our system, absolutely we get upset, absolutely it is the wrong thing. So I think people need to understand the context of why some of us do not agree necessarily with the arguments that that Government has put up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELet us make it quite clear. Labour will support this bill in its first reading so that the appropriate committee, the Social Services Committee, can then do its work and call for submissions and have the advantage of at least listening to the organisations and people who are working on the ground, who are having to deal with these issues on a day-to-day basis. But, in saying that we support this to the select committee, we do have some very, very strong reservations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI think people need to understand the context as we debate this bill. For the past 5 years we in the Opposition have been attempting to hold this Government accountable for the current economic and social woes the country has been experiencing. We have asked questions of this Government about critical areas where there is a need for significant action by this Government to address things such as the need to create more jobs to address high unemployment, and the need to have higher incomes to address the needs of our communities who are struggling. There are needs around housing, where many families are paying a huge chunk of their income on rent, and homeownership is becoming a distant dream for the majority of New Zealanders. That is the context. So when a Government, which is clearly failing to reduce the growing inequality, comes up with these particular proposals, and when a Government continues to use the excuses that it is unable to do anything about the growing inequality because of the global financial crisis or the Christchurch earthquake, then, really, that causes problems for the public who are listening to this debate. It becomes harder for people to accept that there is a genuine need for this Government to make the amendments that it is proposing, considering the context that I have just outlined. Most people then start thinking about whether this is genuine, or whether this is really just a cynical move by this Government to take the heat off itself when it is failing to address the more pertinent issues that the people of New Zealand are facing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELet me just give some views on some of the areas that people are discussing and that I think it is important for the select committee to consider. A few weeks ago a Victoria University associate law professor released her research, and her research showed that the Inland Revenue Department was more likely to write off unpaid tax, whereas the Ministry of Social Development would often keep welfare debt on its books, sometimes until people died or retired. I want to raise that research because the regulatory impact statement on this bill makes reference that the group of people that is being targeted through this particular bill is very, very small. Here are some numbers that I got out of the regulatory impact statement for the 2011-12 financial year. The number of cases of fraud that the ministry investigated was 10,735. The number of cases in which the ministry was able to establish that overpayment was made was 2,139, but the number of cases that it could substantiate and prosecute for fraud was 714. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement also identifies that the overpayments were not the fault of the beneficiaries but the fault of the department. So I would hope that the Social Services Committee, when it is deliberating this, digs deep into the causes and whether the money that we are going to spend as a Parliament in attempting to find fraud is worth the effort that is being put into it. I am not saying that we deviate from prosecuting those who have committed fraud. I said at the beginning that we do not like that sort of thing. Anybody ripping off the system is wrong. But I am suggesting that, based on the report, the research by Victoria University, this Government is failing to look at fraud generally on an equal basis. Again, here is what the research says: tax debt totalled nearly $6 billion while welfare debt was about $1 billion. There appears to be no basis for treating debtors to the two Government agencies differently. The study indicated that tax debtors got off more lightly. The researcher said that the Inland Revenue Department was more likely to negotiate with debtors, collect core tax, and write off penalties and interest. Between 1 July 2011 and June 2012 the Inland Revenue Department wrote off nearly 50 percent of interest and penalties applied to overdue tax, amounting to $374 million. This study showed that it wrote off $435 million in core debt, reflecting 11.6 percent of collectable debt. The Ministry of Social Development, on the other hand, wrote off $8.7 million in core debt, or 2.1 percent of collectable debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe study also showed that in the same period the average value of outstanding tax debt was $14,479 per taxpayer in debt, while the average value of outstanding welfare debt was $2,523 per beneficiary in debt. What the research noted was that more resources were applied to collecting welfare debt than tax debt. The Ministry of Social Development would collect debt from beneficiaries\u2019 payments. The point of the whole research that has been highlighted is that there is a difference in treatment by this particular Government, or by the two agencies, towards those who owe debt to the Inland Revenue Department and those who owe debt to the Ministry of Social Development. The other difference is that there are much bigger sums, or amounts of money, involved in Inland Revenue Department debt, as opposed to a smaller amount of debt in social development and welfare. That also is substantiated by the Government\u2019s own regulatory impact statement. That is why I am asking the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI would hope that the select committee looks deeply into this. The argument has been put forward that in creating this new offence to punish the spouse or partner of the person who committed the offence, surely the spouse or partner would have known about it. Well, I have doubts. Only 2 weeks ago the court found somebody who defrauded the department guilty as charged. It also charged his wife, and, after charging her, she was not prosecuted at all. This causes the problem of charging people without having evidence and then having egg on your face. I would hope that the select committee looks seriously at all those angles. Lastly, the appeals rights need to be looked at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2d3a2596ef94b26a38e87b28badaa01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2d3a2596ef94b26a38e87b28badaa01\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is an honour to take a call this afternoon on the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill in its first reading. The speeches this afternoon on this bill have truly been a good western\u2014a combination of the good, the bad, and the truly ugly. In saying that, I want to make a comment about New Zealand First member Le\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor, who quoted Winston Churchill. This is what she said: sometimes it is better to be irresponsible and right than be responsible and wrong. I find it very interesting that that member worked in the prison system with prisoners in rehabilitation, knowing very clearly that the system was that those who were punished for doing wrong need to be in that right place. If you do the crime, you do the time. I find that very interesting and very confusing. That is probably something that confuses the member herself. She probably has not read the bill or the regulatory impact statement either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Su\u2019a William Sio, was talking about the whole aspect of this bill and the importance of the bill. The bill brings new tools to prevent, detect, and catch welfare fraud. It is pleasing to hear that members on the other side, as Jacinda Ardern said, support the intent of the bill. I think that there is common support for the intent of the bill, which is that those who are defrauding the system should be held to account. As one who has really read the regulatory impact statement, I say that the consultation has been wide. All Crown entities have been consulted, which is the reason why it is going to the Social Services Committee. Then there will be further public consultation to hear the proposals at the select committee consideration of the bill as well. This becomes very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThe vast majority of people who are on welfare\u2014we want to say this\u2014do declare their true circumstances. There is only a small minority who choose and have the intent to defraud the system. In the regulatory impact statement it is really quite clear that in 2011-12, there were 10,735 cases that were investigated, resulting in 2,139 cases of overpayment being established. That is significant because that is a figure of $18.4 million of debt that was established. What we are trying to say is that those who have caused this offence should be held to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EWe are also being careful, because there have been some concerns about those who are vulnerable in the system, especially in regard to domestic violence. There is a stronger focus on ensuring that we protect them. The law is very clear that for welfare purposes, a violent relationship is not treated as a relationship when assessing their entitlement to a benefit. This will be good news to those who work in refuges, and to those women who have, through no fault of their own, been in a relationship where there clearly is domestic violence. It is also important as we do not want to remove financial support that might help a woman who has extracted herself from an abusive relationship. This is an important bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI want to address some of the issues in this debate around the comparison of welfare fraud with tax fraud. There has been a lot made of this. In fact, the concern raised on the other side is that the Government treats welfare fraudsters in a way that is more punitive than it treats tax fraudsters. That is far from the truth. Our key message as a Government is this: the welfare and tax systems operate in different ways, and it is misleading to attempt to compare them. The Government has a duty to ensure that our taxpayer money is not being taken illegitimately. To suggest we turn a blind eye is irresponsible. No one is disputing that tax fraud is a bigger issue than welfare fraud, and the Government\u2019s priorities reflect this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EOver the last four Budgets, the Government has invested almost $200 million of new funding into tackling tax fraud, but it has put no new money into fighting welfare fraud. The Inland Revenue Department has an enforcement budget of $142 million, while the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s enforcement budget is simply $30 million. There is concern that welfare reform costs are $23 million a year while tax fraud is at $1 billion, but the response that we want to form\u2014so that there is some clarity here\u2014is that no one is denying that tax fraud is a bigger problem, but this comparison is definitely misleading. It intends to compare welfare fraud that we caught and that we could prove beyond reasonable doubt and prosecute, with an academic estimate of what tax fraud may exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EIt is also important that we declare that the tools that are also here allow there to be joint accountability. We have heard the Greens talking about this and reporting the facts\u2014the one thing that they do agree with. No longer can it be used just for a spouse in a violent relationship to then dob in the other spouse. This time, there will be shared accountability and responsibility for those who are found in this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI want to wrap up my speech. There was a comment that was made that we on this side are benefit bashing. In fact, we have never used those words. You can check all of the Hansard. On this side of the House, we have never used those words. We have never used those words. In fact, what was also of concern is that the Opposition members were appealing to us to look at our experiences of working in communities. I can honestly say that I have had a constituent who has come to my office, over in M\u0101ngere, and sat down with me. Through no fault of their own, they were in a circumstance where they were being investigated. We sat down together, we worked through the issues, and I am pleased to say that we are coming to a resolution in this situation. What that proves is this: the system that we are seeking to reform is one where those who are in circumstances through no fault of their own can be given a way of mitigating their circumstances. We are doing that. The system allows for that, because this is what has been set up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EFinally, I just want to say that this system of checking out and catching out those who have defrauded the system is part of this Government\u2019s way of looking at welfare. We will always be there to support our people in our community\u2014those who need it\u2014but anyone who can work should be in work, or looking for work and employment opportunities. It is a comprehensive reform of the whole of the welfare system. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022e423d6dc8c544f95a6807146f17db00a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e423d6dc8c544f95a6807146f17db00a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill, but I do so with a very heavy heart and significant reservations. When I was on my first campaign in 1999 in New Lynn, I was door knocking on Northall Road. It is a small street just off Titirangi Road. Not far down that street, I happened to knock on the door of a home where a young mother was bringing three small boys home after school. We got talking and it turned out that one of those kids had just come back from the doctor and was calcium deficient. Talking to me about it, the young mum broke down in tears. I said: \u201CWhat on earth is the matter? Are you worried about your son?\u201D. She said: \u201CI can\u2019t afford him milk. I can\u2019t afford him milk.\u201D I have never forgotten that moment and the despair in the eyes of that young mother. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHere we have the National Party\u2019s best pitch to solve the problems of welfare dependency: beat up on the beneficiaries\u2014beat up on the beneficiaries. The Rev. Dr Alfred Ngaro is, I confess, an MP whom I respect. He has earned his stripes out in the community, and he should know better. From his theological training, he would remember the verse about not taking the speck out of your neighbour\u2019s eye or your brother\u2019s eye when there is a mote in your own\u2014that is a big log of wood, right? I do not know whether the folks on TV can see, but I have a graph here that has two bars. There is a big long bar here for the amount of tax debt, and there is a tiny little speck here. That is benefit debt, right? Here we have the National Party\u2014not wrongly, which is why we are supporting the bill\u2014picking first on beneficiaries and going after $39 million worth of debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut there is $1,000 million of debt in white-collar evasion and back taxes that the Government is leaving. The Rev. Dr Ngaro has said: \u201COK, we\u2019ve juiced up the IRD to chase some of it down.\u201D That is good as far as it goes, but the Inland Revenue Department told the Finance and Expenditure Committee that it gets a return on investment of $6 back for every extra dollar that it spends chasing white-collar tax debt\u2014$6 back for every $1 invested. Why has the Government not gone after the rest of it? There is $1 billion there, which is 150-odd times more debt than there is in beneficiary fraud. So why is it not doing 150 bills on white-collar criminals and fraudsters before it does this one? The answer is that it knows where its bread is buttered. It does not want to shake the foundations of the white-collar community. It is protecting its big business mates\u2014sorry, not \u201Cprotecting\u201D, because I know it is illegal. It is not prioritising the crackdown on its own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EKiwis are sick and tired and sick and tired of hearing about the better future and finding more of the same. They are so disappointed in this visionless, lacklustre, John Key - led National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI am very interested in an article on Stuff, when the bill was introduced, entitled \u201CFraud investigation measures raise concerns\u201D. It says in response to the announcements of the changes by the Associate Minister for Social Development Chester Borrows: \u201CConcerns have been raised about the plans to investigate people without their knowledge as the Government introduces measures to prosecute the partners of benefit fraudsters.\u201D This is part of an ongoing trend. The Government does not like local democracy in the Auckland Unitary Plan, so it passes the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill, which steamrolls over the top of it. It does not like the Ombudsman interfering in the privileges of executive Government, so it starves it of decent funding increases. It does not like Kiwis having the privacy of communications, so it passes in a tick a Government Communications Security Bureau bill that means that it can read every email that every New Zealander has ever sent and intercept any phone call at the drop of a hat. And now it is investigating the partners of beneficiaries with criminal charges and criminal powers because those beneficiaries are a few steps behind in their payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAll right, fair is fair\u2014here is the Labour Party\u2019s position: go after fraud wherever it is. One law for all, fair day\u2019s work, fair day\u2019s pay, fair suck of the sav\u2014OK. OK. It is not wrong to collect beneficiary fraud. That is the right thing to do. But it is 150 times more right to chase down white-collar tax debt\u2014150 times more right. Even if it did this in the middle and it just chased down 75 tax bills before it did this one, that would be a fair thing. We see the National Party\u2019s true colours. It is so blue that it is black. Kiwis are getting dark on National, and we will find out next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u002282204bb92c174c00b55d74ee3ad83bca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282204bb92c174c00b55d74ee3ad83bca\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Thank you very much. I am honoured to speak for the Green Party and to be voting against the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill. It is very important that the Green Party stands here today and votes against this bill. I would like to honour all the people who struggle on the benefit, because the benefit itself has now become a fraud. The benefit once was truly a safety net, but now people cannot live on it. We can live on our comfortable wages, but many, many people out there cannot live on what they are receiving on the benefit. If they could get a job, they would, because who wants to be stigmatised? Who wants to be investigated? Who wants to be humiliated? It is no fun to stand at a Work and Income office and receive that treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the beneficiary advocates, a group of people who are dwindling in the recession. They have pointed out to me that what happens in a recession every time\u2014many of them are veterans of the system\u2014is that there are bills passed through this Parliament to increase the pressure on and the scapegoating of the vulnerable. It is a great system. Of course the Government is not going to go after tax dodgers. That is hard work. They have got lawyers. Well, I tell you what\u2014sorry, Mr Assistant Speaker, not you. I will tell the House my own experience of working with the benefit fraud team. There is already a system of investigating benefit fraud, and it is not very pleasant, because what it does is it picks on the large percentage of people who either did not realise they had created a debt or are in trouble for various reasons with the department, and it now investigates them secretly. It creates an incredibly punitive regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI have sat at meetings with young parents who did not know that they had to prove they were the parents. The department decided that they were not really with their child enough, and they were going to go to court and possibly go to jail. A lot of young women who are in prison are young women who have been done for benefit fraud, so their kids are really benefiting from this punitive system now! And this bill is going to make it worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe do salute the part of the bill that will require more responsibility from partners, though I think some of it is going to be an enormous waste of money. Some people will get work out of it. There may be some more jobs in the benefit fraud unit, but I cannot actually see it being very effective to try to squeeze more blood out of the vulnerable stones at the bottom of our society, which is what this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESo how does the ministry collect a $5,000 fine from people who already do not have any money, and from people for whom English is a second language and who have come to the benefit support agencies I have been part of, saying that they do not know what Work and Income is telling them and they are not sure what they are entitled to? We often then find out that they have not got their basic entitlement but they are being accused of fraud for various reasons beyond their control. So there is the super-vulnerable people at the bottom, and we are increasingly seeing mental health survivors become part of the investigation of fraud, which is what this bill will target. So let us get on to those mental health survivors, let us put them through the system, let us investigate them, let us threaten them with fraud, and let us see how much money we can squeeze out of them! We will get not very much money, not very much human dignity, and not too much respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI sat with a benefit fraud investigator one day, and she said to a woman: \u201CHow many times have you had sex with your neighbour? Don\u2019t you diary your sex life?\u201D. There was no shame in talking to beneficiaries like that\u2014no shame whatsoever. I said to the benefit fraud investigator: \u201CDo you diary your sex life?\u201D. And guess what? She did not, but it is OK to talk to those people like that, because they are at the bottom and they have got issues, and because they are not justified like the tax people! They are the bad people and we can treat them like dirt, because dirt is how we treat them! But that does not work. It does not work for recovering money, it does not work for inspiring people to do better, it does not create jobs, and it does not protect human rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons this is a bad bill is the fact that it does not acknowledge that out there in the community some people are trying to get our human right to a decent income and food for our kids, even if they are in debt. It does not allow that. The ministry will decide what is reasonable, and the ministry will fail because the ministry is failing now. We need to go back to the first principles of the Social Security Act. Much like ACC, where we have abandoned the Woodhouse principles, we should go back to the fundamental principles about protecting people. Wasting money like this on creating more and more squads of people to investigate more and more other people when it is a small percentage of genuine rip-off merchants is a shame and a disgrace. Let us review the system. Let us do it properly, rather than base it on punishment. We are very proud to oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca003d73d5544d169b481eb68a9364cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca003d73d5544d169b481eb68a9364cf\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take the last call on another very good piece of legislation from the Hon Chester Borrows. He is doing some very good work in this space and working very well with the Minister for Social Development, Paula Bennett. Has this Government not made a huge impact in the welfare space and a very positive impact for New Zealanders? The question I would have for the pervious speaker, Catherine Delahunty, is this: is it not the Government\u2019s first obligation to ensure that the taxpayers of New Zealand are well supported in the provisions by which they pay their tax to serve this country, and that we meet those provisions and that we meet the obligations of those individuals? And where it is clear that citizens who are reliant on the goodwill of the State and the finances of the State by virtue of those taxpayers are taking advantage of that, and are defrauding their fellow neighbours and taxpayers and community, the Government should do all that it can to respond to that on behalf of those taxpaying New Zealanders. First and foremost, that is what the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill is doing. It is saying that we take those responsibilities very seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EAlthough I know the Greens are very proud to oppose something like this, they will never be a party in Government as long as they maintain that attitude. Although they can dilly-dally around some fringe sort of watermelon patch ideas and ideologies, and disguise themselves as a party that is there for the environment but is really there to socially engineer in a Marxist fashion, New Zealanders actually can peel back the layers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b5066863414108a5848edfd2e9d192\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, you Friedmanite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91c975f69444819be1d1392c96fa687\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Cunliffe may want to be very careful about the comments that he makes about the Green Party, because if he goes on to be successful in his leadership bid against Tweedledum and Tweedledee there, of course, that party, the Green Party, is the very party that he is going to have to be cuddling up to if he ever fulfils aspirations of being the Prime Minister. Mr Cunliffe is an intelligent political operator. He is intelligent enough to know that cuddling up to the Green Party is akin to cuddling up to a cactus, because there are a lot thorns and there are lot of prickles with that particular party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89d46f9cb3f4080b31d1b80ffd9fc80\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not going to work\u2014no, we\u2019re a Government in waiting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220047287619bf4c669633e2650d579568\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: If it is not going to work, Mr Cunliffe, then the member will never be the leader\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022016504c4e6cc4961b2ba8f1eca0bfa2f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We are actually on a different debate, so I would ask the member to come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f0b3c43a18344b497293fc16598b309\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222940a81ee39d45babfc42a7579c085ad\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the member who is on his feet to yield the balance of his time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221edc047793e6496c8791a9c48cf3707b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, you cannot do that. [Interruption] You cannot do that. The member will sit. You cannot do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c4674f22d6849879e78e4cdfe86e2bb\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: With this particular bill, I will just reflect on some of my previous life, before coming in here, as a police officer. Although everyone in this House knows\u2014and certainly this Government, which has to make responsible decisions, knows\u2014that it is not a case of everyone on welfare committing welfare fraud, what I saw as a police officer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d3a066aedb6451f8cdf5ba8c529fa32\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Stranger in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7dbf87ccb445e9b9087faef5b98964\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Listen up, Mr Cunliffe. The member might learn a little bit about his constituents and the lives they are living out there in the big wide world. What was very clear to me is that there are, unfortunately, a significant number of individuals who do pair up in domestic relationships and who are profiting from the fact that they are living in a relationship in the nature of a marriage or a relationship that would see them ineligible for the additional support, and they take that quite knowingly. They certainly do it in a manner that is reckless as to whether or not that would be the case. Time and time and time again, I saw a situation where that was occurring. The frustration that I felt not only as a police officer but as a member of the community was that it was not good enough that the people who were reliant on their neighbours for support were actually taking those neighbours for a ride in doing so. Although there will always be some genuine cases of confusion or misunderstanding, it is not a case that this Parliament should be making legislation that is targeted simply at that tiniest nuance. It must be accommodated for, but ultimately the legislation that we should be looking to pass is to send the right message that the community, the taxpayer, and the Government says what is acceptable and what is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EAt its heart, that is exactly what this legislation is doing. It is saying that to the $26 million worth of welfare fraud committed by beneficiaries in relationships in 2013. That is one-third of all prosecutions. It is saying that that $26 million is not theirs. Taxpayers are not paying that money simply so that those beneficiaries can benefit by pulling a swindle. This legislation will, in fact, tackle that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI just want to touch briefly on, before my time expires, overpayments and the recovery of debt. In terms of people who have committed fraud, $128 million is languishing. That money has not been recovered. A recent High Court decision made it very clear that there was some confusion, and clarity is needed. This legislation brings that clarity on a legislative footing so that it will improve the duty and role of the Ministry of Social Development to take all reasonably practicable steps to recover that debt. It also gives the Ministry of Social Development the discretion to determine on a case by case method how that recovery occurs, and in some exceptional circumstances it could be deferred. Giving that legislative clarity, sending that message, and providing the Ministry of Social Development with those tools is an integral part of readjusting what is a significant amount of welfare fraud. I believe that the taxpayers of New Zealand deserve that. This Government gets on and does what needs to be done. I note the challenges of the Opposition\u2014the Labour Party and the Greens. Although the Labour Party is supporting it, it is a David Shearer support. It is the old \u201COh yes, we certainly support it, but actually behind the scenes we are supporting and thinking about something else and steering down a different course.\u201D That is what members opposite do. They say: \u201CWe support it, but we don\u2019t like it. We\u2019re going to throw it under the bus anyway.\u201D, because they want a dollar each way. New Zealanders do not want a dollar each way. They want clear legislation, a good Minister, and a good portfolio where a lot of good work has been done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222f0238f961a1407b8e3b067d9dfcaf3a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 2; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000680\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b423ebe7ec2d43eca32fee176ad4360f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b423ebe7ec2d43eca32fee176ad4360f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has indicated that it does not wish to progress further business under urgency. The House therefore stands adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 3 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.01 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20130827224278038c074b2cb0a67cd3e9012110000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"