"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dd563cd3938436c951cb5f6eee19cf9\u0022\u003ETuesday, 17 September 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3e519b1ca944cd895b4432bad8f13b5\u0022\u003ETuesday, 17 September 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d1f0b79cd9c49b5a5206d8445062d81\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fd5d91a3b2a4cac869e45147c09d615\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe4c83010d664ba8a5786a9d5b0fe87c\u0022\u003ETelecommunications Infrastructure, Pricing\u2014Commerce Commission Determination\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2c7f36f61e54ca9a8347d6e1627170a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2c7f36f61e54ca9a8347d6e1627170a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he still think that Chorus \u201Cwill go broke\u201D if his Government does not intervene to change the pricing for access to the old copper-based broadband network as proposed by the Commerce Commission; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab3d9389882a4f98bace602531b353a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab3d9389882a4f98bace602531b353a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by my original statement, which is basically that the Commerce Commission ruling states there is a chance Chorus will go broke. I stand by my view for a number of reasons, not the least of which being Chorus\u2019s own statement from last year, in which it indicated that the impact of the Commerce Commission\u2019s draft determination could require Chorus to fundamentally rethink its business model and capital structure. Chorus also said that under the draft determination of the Commerce Commission, it could lose up to $160 million of annual earnings. To put this in some context, Chorus\u2019s net profit for the 2013 financial year was a touch above that; $171 million. Given the flow-on effects that a reduction on earnings has on borrowings and Chorus\u2019s investment grade, this would have significant impacts for any public company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022428585455dc2416dae2b07e42dd0bd97\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given that answer, was his advice based on any information not already in the public domain; if not, did he assess the risks of his observance of the Securities Act when making his forecast of Chorus\u2019s profitability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f59d8ea9ac8449b998f725662237bf2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Advice was provided to Cabinet by officials based on commercial-in-confidence discussions between Chorus and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment officials. Unlike a Government that he was a member of under Helen Clark, we actually observe the laws\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668187cf29fe4e30bacb0db45e60ae07\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e6ef34cdd284a27a773b46a723b3ec1\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Was any of that \u201Ccommercial-in-confidence information\u201D conveyed in the phone call that he received from the chair of Chorus shortly after the commission\u2019s decision was announced in December 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e22a5cc03ee416c880a4c91de2bf642\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Probably, yes; I mean, the chairman gave me an indication of her thinking about the impact that would take place, and that gave me some understanding of the issues that it would face. In the end, the Government chose to take the action of having a discussion document, because it believes that, fundamentally, the determination for copper pricing should be reached by considering all of the factors that the Government put into the 2011 legislation, and that includes section 18(2A), which the commission itself said it did not actually take into consideration because it was not sure how to interpret it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022941b6abba1d348d088d1f3f4b7f31bfe\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why, following the call from the chair of caucus\u2014Chorus\u2014did he see it fit\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbfcfe3a48d24a8991605003caa0f029\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I invite the member to start his question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223c0b213ea4f49798a56bbc44103f34e\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why, following the call from the chair of caucus, did he see fit\u2014[Interruption] Why do we not take that a third time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f2a8c9aebbe4e98aeb775023f3ad4f5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have called for a supplementary question from the Hon David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225340c1fc85544e849cbde551eb6f53b3\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why, following his call from the chair of Chorus\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d712c23f1dd4d738a0cca2bbc589c89\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yay!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227dc7028273a464bbf52ccec84793271\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0f5e51cd36a4bae9fcb8084d80e8f56\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we will see whether the National backbench will be as happy with the second half of the question\u2014did he see fit to override the lawful regulatory process employed by the Commerce Commission, which requires them to issue a draft, then consult, and then issue a final recommendation before that is considered by Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c82ee6197246e38cd42f9c6577f4b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: There are two things. One thing is true: I do get a phone call from my caucus, but they all voted for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227473385e968c4f8f831c5e953a2abd44\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e9850d24c84cefadfb1fb6cecc3493\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I can only imagine what the phone call from Trevor is like in San Francisco at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd8052a4d8384a54b9cd3baf36f58e1c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f18a106a62141cfb344d42a5afed6f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254d1c95d067742519ec9bebe85bf485a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have point of order from the Rt Hon Winston Peters. [Interruption] Order! This is a point of order; it will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f03c840d3f4aee81e0fc714b0c97b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister on the first supplementary answer offended, and now he has started out with the offence before he even gets to answer any question\u2014not just once; he has done it twice\u2014and he was not stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db12917c842f48d1b583497d5e61b241\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I thank the right honourable member for his advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a6e255f0c2c4be58ab04e566462ef65\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e7f1be44fe94824941e741c5282dfe0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Points of order are to be heard in silence if members want to stay to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218db72accff9424b8da7cb8fec4f6643\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: In two straightforward questions today the Prime Minister has taken political slaps. You in the past have said that that is unacceptable, and I would ask that you hold the Prime Minister to the standard that you have previously set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226393ad3e17e7426fad37dde99d1c0e8f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I also thank the member for his advice. This is a robust debating chamber, and although the comments from the Prime Minister were not helpful to the order of the House, as soon as he embarked on that particular line of answering, I stood and called him to order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98b1350038a4b8fba7f31115a62e6f1\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3832abe75a14647bfab75fa0bafecd2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c5a9e9ab4942bb8f035af7ad2c7964\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we do want you to answer, so get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229dfc8151a59413eb19db9fd5251e37e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! It would be helpful\u2014[Interruption]. Order! I now invite the Prime Minister to complete his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022410eb6c414f4436196325e6e155e4fdd\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: And the Labour Party members did get on with it, and they said they did not want you, Grant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d40054213d42af8703efa7b40784e2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Prime Minister will simply rise and answer the question without adding any political connotations at the start of his answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff0c533076e4cb4a41a34369e793d9a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is not overruling the Commerce Commission. The Government has put out a discussion document, because it believes that it is important to understand at least the possible thinking on what could take place during this build period. In saying that, it is worth remembering this point: there was a submission\u2014I think received today or in the last few days\u2014from the former Telecommunications Commissioner, Dr Ross Patterson, who, I might add, was appointed by the then communications Minister David Cunliffe. I quote Mr Patterson when he said: \u201CThe Government has made it clear that it does not intend to provide a demand side subsidy to incentivise migration to fibre. Under those circumstances the only practical option is to adjust copper pricing along the lines proposed in the Discussion Document.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4d6c821e224da6bd8ff33a4fdac19a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking of submissions, does the Prime Minister agree with Vodafone that the unbundled bitstream access (UBA) pricing proposal delivers \u201Cunnecessary corporate welfare to Chorus, at the expense of all consumers who will pay more for telecommunications services,\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa3f2a0e8ad4f009a1ddf505ff84a1d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No; because under every scenario, consumers will pay less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60f5501169646c3a702749c2db5598b\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. Is he concerned that artificially increasing the price of copper will increase the digital divide between the haves and the have-nots and will make even cheap and slow internet access completely unaffordable for many M\u0101ori and rural wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225135ec3be234ba48a72b60e0482992e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, no, there is no increase in copper pricing. I say again: under every scenario proposed by the Government, copper pricing will be reduced. The question is the size of that and whether all of the factors that the Government intended for the commission to take into consideration should be, and are, taken into consideration. It is the view of the Government, and, actually, the Commerce Commission, that section 18(2A) of the Act has not been taken into consideration. The Rural Broadband Initiative is about creating competition, which will drive down prices over time as you get competition between new technologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf5096cb9db49b29237b523887e2d71\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Prime Minister say that it would be cheaper than under every scenario when, relative to the scenario proposed by the regulator, Kiwi consumers will be paying up to $150 a year more per household?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b3460c2dd2a4822b0ffe63085fa02f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Under every scenario proposed in the discussion document, there will be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204a59fb24dbb4a198a4e2848f384003f\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e097fc7f6ce94d2bb4ce06c63b12b594\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what we are talking about. Under every scenario proposed in the discussion document there will be a reduction in price to consumers. That will have an impact on Chorus of, somewhere over the 5-year period, between $100 million and $500 million. But it is worth remembering what the price is at the moment. It is $44.98. I go back to 2007 when the total copper price was $47.28, and I do not remember the Labour Government back then demanding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe42ddb2df0543cdb5d746970bff6716\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is a sufficient answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229138b50f3eaf4ebc9817b8b7a8a5f2f6\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was a very straight question, and it was about comparing it with the Commerce Commission proposal, not with the Government\u2019s proposal, and the Prime Minister has refused to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022847955d5fd7a46fd8bd476ec0dd88622\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That was not the question, as I understood it. The question asked why the Prime Minister is saying it is cheaper under every scenario, and the Prime Minister sought to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f3aeef75a64fd49ad7c405c226d2e9\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given that it was his Government that negotiated and signed the ultra-fast broadband contract with Chorus, and that he now says that under that contract Chorus will go broke, why did his Minister Steven Joyce get the ultra-fast broadband contract so wrong? The Government cannot have it both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222775a77090a841a9b19600576ee3a6b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Under no scenario is the Government saying it got the contract wrong with Chorus. What the Government is saying is that the Commerce Commission should have taken into consideration, in our view, all parts of the determination or the indication that we gave. That included benchmarks with other alternatives, which is the standard practice, and Sweden and Denmark were the only two benchmarks that, in fact, actually the Commerce Commission believed it could get a similar view from. The Commerce Commission itself said that under section 18(2A) it was not sure how to interpret it, so it ignored it. Actually, section 18(2A) spells out very clearly the expectations of what the Government thought pricing should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f934c8383284f88b546aa11fee3befc\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Prime Minister\u2019s actions have overridden both the contract entered into by his Minister Steven Joyce and the regulatory process of the independent regulator to provide a $600 million subsidy to one of New Zealand\u2019s most powerful corporates, would he agree that this smells and tastes of crony capitalism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c983a699a734be38cb90367816c6133\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: On so many fronts the member is wrong; it is not funny. Firstly, the Government is not unhappy with the contract between Chorus and Crown Fibre Holdings, and nor is it actually seeking to make any adjustments there. Secondly, the Government has not overridden the Commerce Commission; it has put out a discussion document. Thirdly, under every scenario, consumers will pay less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aa666b5df514a068affabbdb2ffd63d\u0022\u003EHon Amy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen any reports analysing the claims of the imposition of a so-called $600 million copper tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd3490c0052425087251fe8e14db029\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Funnily enough, I have. I have seen the reports issued by Covec, and let me run through a few of the interesting points in that. Firstly, the methodology is fundamentally flawed. Covec attributes $126 million transfer to Chorus in 2014 as a result of the Government\u2019s proposal. Actually, it is a material error, because the current pricing prevails until the end of December 2014. Covec speculates what the final UBA price will be from the commission. None of us actually knows that, so how could we actually adopt that? Covec does not accept fibre as the modern equivalent asset for copper, which is completely out of step with the European Commission and others who have made statements on this matter. The Covec report misrepresents the proposal as a tax when in fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f39b8d0ed224ba2b54302c4abc069f1\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a long answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe136dd9415e42b1b5a29428ea18f507\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is actually a very thorough answer to the best question I have had today, to be perfectly honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eebc252ce59442ba856c451a6f1d8851\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given his reliance upon reports, what reliance is he placing on media reports that this $600 million botch-up is the end of Minister Adams\u2019 chances of succeeding him as Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab28d670178f4386b0320603dcadc2d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I need to be honest. I really do not think our caucus is looking for a new leader right at the moment, but after question time today the Labour Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bb8e976ba6d47e8ad4e838b7387a15e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0652ce6a1cf482f96b53598dbd05ed1\u0022\u003EHawke\u2019s Bay Water Management\u2014Department of Conservation Submission on Plan Change Proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00222665d3a017d44c03b2c5e8916f2b2068\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222665d3a017d44c03b2c5e8916f2b2068\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Did he discuss the Tukituki Catchment Proposal with any Department of Conservation senior management in the two months prior to 2 August 2013; if so, with whom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022d20837a643614bd3ba6b0678677b1633\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d20837a643614bd3ba6b0678677b1633\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E This proposal from the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Council has been applied for because it believes it will benefit its community by increasing minimum river flows, improving water quality, and increasing the prosperity from irrigation in that region. Of course I discussed this proposal with officials, because I had important decisions to make with the Minister for the Environment, and Cabinet papers on whether it was a nationally significant proposal and on the appointment of a board of inquiry. These discussions were with the Director-General of Conservation and senior Department of Conservation staff. Frankly, I would have been negligent in my role as Minister if I had not discussed those important statutory decisions with my senior staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022974f615b2d224ca0933d56ddeb6d41f6\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Did he give any indication to the Department of Conservation on the direction or content of its submission on the plan change proposal; if so, what was that direction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd2ee22e2f947a6b6ff7024f4e6d20f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The decision about the submission that was made to the board of inquiry by the Department of Conservation was made by the deputy director-general. I was informed of the debate that was going on within the department about the nature of its submission, but it was a decision for the department. The important real issue is that the board of inquiry has a broad range of views and technical expertise to make a good decision for Hawke\u2019s Bay about what is best for its water management. I am perfectly confident that that board, with over 300 submissions, with a range of views, will make a good decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221917fb4673844d7b90ad8f2ac46a4d9c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was very simple\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df68802c1cb84e97ab61d45295931aa7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I agree with the point that the member is going to raise. Can I invite the member to ask that question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022543db22bfb1b4b68885b8366fdb0ac92\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Did he give any indication to the Department of Conservation on the direction or content of its submission on the plan change proposal; if so, what was that indication?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177ecd10bfe2417db09a2d38beb31cba\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the department kept me informed of the debate that was going on within the department about the nature of its submission, but the decision about the submission was made by the deputy director-general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022758cdbfb635b4097bd2d4424eb9a2860\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister gave pretty much the same answer to pretty much the same question. The question was about what indication the Minister gave to the department, not about what the department said to the Minister. The Minister has not addressed that question at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b04808a1f0406085c46bf215faef1c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I agree. I am going to invite the member to ask the question for the third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9bdb1d7d3664e7086dccb38c6007c4c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Did he give any indication to the Department of Conservation on the direction or content of its submission on the plan change proposal; if so, what was that indication?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201ea33b39ba8407fbd19c05357d671da\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I say again that I was informed by the Department of Conservation about the internal debate that was going on within the department. The department then made its decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6c231d004f84b7193c86550c3f5385b\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b65c8bb5f104f41b8049fbf54b9903b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I have\u2014I have. The member is asking whether I made the decision. No, I did not. Did I give an indication? No, I did not. Did the department inform me of the range of views? Yes, it did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa62aa129f894f9aa66e74ae7c8a62cc\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Minister saying that he gave no indication whatsoever to the Department of Conservation on his views on the direction or content of its submission on the plan change proposal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cfdb91a3854d77a25ed238cb8430af\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The decision about the submission that was made by the Department of Conservation was made by the deputy director-general. I did not give the department an indication of what that submission would be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022616261c0df104834bfcf5c21002a5d05\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: In any of his meetings with the Department of Conservation around its submission on the plan change proposal, did he make any mention of his and the Government\u2019s objective of facilitating water storage, outlined in his 2010 speech \u201CBetter Water Management\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079dacac0a09452083b01ea84a414dbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My best recollection\u2014because I meet with the department staff every week\u2014is that there were five meetings in which the issue of my role in the board of inquiry was raised. In four of those, the only issue that was discussed was whether the matter met a national significance test and, secondly, who should be on the board of inquiry. There was only one meeting and it was simply a matter of the department informing me of its submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262881ac5fe5b41ab8077678329019ca5\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Minister now saying that he had knowledge of the Department of Conservation\u2019s submission but he made no comment whatsoever as to his views on that submission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795f1bd776d94415b97ec8d037e3c1a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I meet with my department staff every single week. At those meetings we typically cover 20 issues. At one of those meetings I was informed of the department\u2019s approach in its submission on the irrigation proposal. No, I did not at any stage say to the department officials \u201CHey, look, this Government thinks that irrigation needs to be expanded.\u201D, as much as I said to the department\u2014and in my discussions with the Minister for the Environment\u2014that we need to make sure that the board of inquiry process was robust, to ensure that the right decision will be made for the community of Hawke\u2019s Bay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abafbf1743b54e24881ddcfd6b61b85d\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: In his discussion with officials around the board of inquiry process, did he tell them that he did not expect them to make a submission that would put him in a difficult position\u2014as the final decision-maker\u2014after the board of inquiry process, and hence they should make a submission that did not take strong views one way or the other?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42b8f11b4c34877a15f5f2690c87e48\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me make clear that earlier in the year, when I first became Minister of Conservation, I did have a very direct conversation with the director-general about boards of inquiry, and in that discussion I said that it put the Minister in a very difficult position if when appointing a board of inquiry it was then making recommendations to you as the final decision-maker\u2014for instance, in the King Salmon case\u2014but at the same time you were making decisions advocating a particular view. And I said to the director-general that in those circumstances, the department needed to be very cautious about its submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02da4dd9b0047338e91384e52b7083d\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the effect of that conversation is that the Department of Conservation is unable to do its statutory job, which is to advocate for the environment, because its Minister is telling it not to make submissions that take a strong stand to protect the rivers of this country\u2014something that he is supposed to be protecting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a46017b493406fa424c333e0d389aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, the member is confused. Primary responsibility for water quality rests with my colleague the Minister for the Environment, and that member will remember many occasions when I held that portfolio when questions on water quality were directed in that way. In respect of the department\u2019s responsibilities, they are for public conservation land, they are for fresh water, and they are for New Zealand\u2019s special species. It is not the department\u2019s role\u2014and nor is the best expertise in Government on freshwater quality within the Department of Conservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8c9ef8b20a42f5991a8128c1475ae7\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the 32-page suppressed submission that the Minister prevented the department from submitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c323ad617744bd09a47adf74aeb7beb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am going to object because the document was not suppressed; it is a draft\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a718ae89b2441a5b53735884541e98d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Then the way forward is that I will put the leave and any member can so object.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246812c9998bc45658fd166160bcacd9e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the point. The point is that the member has asked to release a document that has a certain description on it that is inaccurate. It might be up to the House to say \u201CNo, you can\u2019t release it.\u201D, but no such document exists, and therefore it puts us in a position of looking like we are blocking something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a572a51dfd6b47bba537a25f99c23332\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: How do you know that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211981e2a2f3f4f38b469691b0114584a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Because this is a departmental draft, Grant, not a suppressed document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248f11c763df94a1d86e550cf216c5812\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Every member of this House has a right to seek leave to table a document. Clearly, Dr Norman does not believe it is in the public domain. Having these speeches from the Government does not help the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b06164da2c4490a9d1e89209a3a9d92\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I do not need any more help from the honourable member. Every member has a right to seek leave to table a document. It is absolutely paramount that the member who seeks that leave describes the document with absolute accuracy. I am inviting the member Dr Russel Norman to stand, to describe it accurately, and then I will determine whether to put leave to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b521ef1e3c64452aaa17c7998c0e3c1f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking leave. This is a two-part document: the departmental submission document dated 31 July 2013, which went to the Minister, and the document that goes with it called Attachment to Plan Change 6: Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Plan Reasons for Submission, which is the draft that was not submitted, even though it was written by his department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290337db4520e41bdb0700df0eebb2efd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think both documents have been adequately explained. Leave is sought to table those two documents. Is there any objection? There is none. They can be so tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1aa67515574673a1b15edab3629f4a\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the final submission made by the Department of Conservation on the plan change, which is one paragraph repeated twice, submitted with the permission, no doubt, of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227adc4b60828d4083b175855dd9439697\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Leave is sought to table that. That is all that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f907e52d70147d78047140a14bb0b6c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the full submission that the Department of Conservation made, which is a lot more than what the previous member referred to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022687a3e7697f5436bbbac7e614f87ec2a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is so sought for the Minister to table the full submission. Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none. It can be so tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022010cba92c9ef469592ae9840e528fc5b\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Monetary Policy Statement, September 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002243e84d78a32e4914a8539c2acc8413c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243e84d78a32e4914a8539c2acc8413c6\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he received about the outlook for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002269d854ce6e084b408758142cff5bbe1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269d854ce6e084b408758142cff5bbe1d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Acting Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Reserve Bank last week issued its Monetary Policy Statement for September. In that statement the Reserve Bank Governor confirmed that the official cash rate was unchanged at 2.5 percent. He noted that inflation remains subdued, with the consumer price index increasing by just 0.7 percent in the year to June. However, inflation is expected to rise gradually towards the midpoint of the Reserve Bank\u2019s 1 to 3 percent target band as economic growth strengthens over the coming year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f75c98391b46494abba4b30c2fea850f\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Reserve Bank say about the expected growth of the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae5543f973b142b7b34ccfdd15584a70\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank said that the strengthening of the New Zealand economy that occurred from late 2012 has continued through the first half of 2013. The economy is estimated to have grown 3 percent in the year to the September quarter. However, I would note that the effect of the severe drought earlier this year is likely to show up in the GDP figure for the June quarter, which is due out this Thursday. For example, Treasury is in fact expecting a decline in GDP of 0.2 percent for the June quarter. Despite that, the gradual underlying recovery continues, and the Reserve Bank is expecting annual GDP growth to increase to about 3.5 percent by the middle of 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265060461c2294c73bb37023eb2f16d84\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: How does the New Zealand economy\u2019s expected performance over the next few years compare with forecasts for other developed economies, and what global issues are expected to come into play?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c12d6c54b44eaf856db032c53b7e6a\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: As the Reserve Bank Governor said in a speech last month, New Zealand is now one of the world\u2019s fastest-growing developed economies. The growth is expected to remain strong and become more broad-based over the next 2 years. However, the governor has also noted a number of global risks that could affect New Zealand. For example, speculation about future Federal Reserve policy has put substantial downward pressure on emerging market currencies, and, in addition, recent unrest in Syria has seen oil prices move higher. The Reserve Bank says that it is of some concern that potential exchange rate depreciation and higher oil prices could cause deterioration in the economies of New Zealand\u2019s Asian trading partners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b797d7452bbc4460816e45c001bf850f\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Reserve Bank say in its latest Monetary Policy Statement about new restrictions on high loan-to-value ratio mortgage lending, and what impact are these measures expected to have on the housing market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022432e8e0e33614af48ed7c23610665851\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank noted that it expects the new loan-to-value ratio speed limits, which come into force on 1 October, to contribute to a fall in demand for housing. It will lead to lower house price inflation than would have otherwise been the case. The Reserve Bank estimates that loan-to-value ratio speed limits are likely to reduce annual house price inflation by about 1 to 4 percentage points over the next year. In addition, it estimates the new loan-to-value ratio rules are likely to lower household credit growth by 1 to 3 percentage points over the next year. This lower house price inflation is projected to dampen household consumption expenditure over the coming year or so and reduce the expected 90-day interest rate by about 30 basis points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b57d7e374d06483bb99800677ac1761e\u0022\u003EBusinesses\u2014Financial Support from Government and Treasury Advice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec7b099e5f0a44f98395d408ffac75af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec7b099e5f0a44f98395d408ffac75af\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Did the Treasury provide advice as to whether he should support or oppose overruling the Commerce Commission\u2019s draft determination on copper broadband pricing given that the Treasury has previously advised against subsidising big business such as the $30 million T\u012Bwai subsidy which has \u201Cno economic justification\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022382d74a13d61493da66d1e81b7a0cd43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022382d74a13d61493da66d1e81b7a0cd43\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Acting Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that Treasury has provided advice on a range of options regarding the Commerce Commission\u2019s draft determination but has not provided advice to support or oppose the matter raised in the member\u2019s question. Treasury has supported the Government\u2019s decision to bring forward the legislative review of the Telecommunications Act and has set the implementation date for the unbundled bitstream access price to November 2015.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b48e7f93ae8e42fba6eded867a3ce416\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why did Treasury say there was \u201Cno economic justification\u201D for paying taxpayer subsidies to the owners of the T\u012Bwai smelter? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b207b001c5444933918740a50371420f\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am not sure that that question actually fits with the primary question, but, nevertheless, Treasury does provide advice on different matters from time to time, and the Government sometimes accepts that advice and sometimes operates under different advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc3ee8e8927474abfb9674a867ca6ea\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, why did he ignore Treasury advice that there was \u201Cno economic justification\u201D for paying a $30 million taxpayer subsidy to the Rio Tinto - owned smelter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227781c53a13284c97bffc11960b376b1f\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: It was the Government\u2019s judgment that in terms of the potential dislocation to the New Zealand power market, and in terms of the potential dislocation to the Southland economy, it was a sensible decision to provide the payment to T\u012Bwai Point. I bet money that when the new Leader of the Opposition goes to Invercargill he will be singing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a24370ed84424cc7b388b28edb818c3e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That last part is unhelpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb87da1328c444ea38d9d74f3b5544e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Government\u2019s deal giving a $30 million subsidy to the smelter, which overrode Treasury advice that said it had no economic justification, come before or after a telephone call between the Prime Minister and the smelter boss?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e5cf6ab74f486482a040f5caaa2f1c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Another phone call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc4c5de6eb10447389ad0ea46c493f39\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: It is outrageous that people use telephones! I am not aware of that particular time line, but I can tell the member that if he wants to back Treasury advice, then he should see Treasury\u2019s advice on his NZ Power proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd75a3d8e2974bae8f815744686e99d4\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister for Economic Development seek the approval of the Minister of Finance before he pressured Vodafone, Federated Farmers, and 2degrees not to join the \u201CAxe the Copper Tax\u201D campaign; if so, is that the same Steven Joyce who refused a base price for copper when the ultra-fast broadband contract was tendered to Chorus, and now wants to put in place a base price, which economists say is worth hundreds of millions of dollars to Chorus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231a6ec11a98f42daba5cbc769c1342a4\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I do talk with the Minister for Economic Development from time to time. I find him particularly agreeable. We tend to agree, particularly today, on most things. I disagree with the member\u2019s characterisation of my friend the Minister for Economic Development and his conversations with those three parties. The Minister for Economic Development explained to those three parties what was actually involved, because the \u201CAxe the Copper Tax\u201D campaign is actually not honest, there is no subsidy proposed for Chorus, the Chorus contract is not being changed to increase its revenues, and the Government is not introducing a copper tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec0fab3751424984b2c2de4ae8a6cdf6\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation\u2014Levies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d52ee991ac2b410db9502b6f1c032df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d52ee991ac2b410db9502b6f1c032df7\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: What announcements has she made today about ACC levies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c84d14d5e4ef45e4a180776228881d14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c84d14d5e4ef45e4a180776228881d14\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Today I announced my support for ACC\u2019s consultation on significant reductions to average levies for businesses, for motor vehicle owners, and for workers being a 17 percent reduction in the combined average work levy, a 15 percent reduction in the combined average motor vehicle levy, and a 15 percent reduction in the earners levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e66a35130048a9a529262b1808d7ce\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: What factors of ACC\u2019s performance have enabled this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228932d1829a574f80bba24eb837d135a9\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The combination of effective rehabilitation, prudent cost management, and exceptional investment performance has enabled the consideration of substantial levy reductions. ACC runs the system. It is the envy of many countries in the world, and I would like to thank the board\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff1230c9c5974aa98ebc235cfc048143\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no one left on the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200602b9707694da7ada893ce4bd2074d\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and ACC staff for their hard work, which has contributed to the possibility of levy reductions\u2014an excellent board, by the way, appointed by me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002235f7d8c445bd4768b4284db685bf4128\u0022\u003EHawke\u2019s Bay Water Management\u2014Regional Council Plan Change Proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00226dc7e69bab5649c28c53e1cb2351f30b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dc7e69bab5649c28c53e1cb2351f30b\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Has she ever received any advice that the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Council Plan Change 6, which paves the way for the Ruataniwha Dam proposal, in its current form, does not meet the requirements of the Resource Management Act 1993 for plan changes, and would not achieve the requirements of Part 2 of that Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0e13d38fef24ca9b2297ca93550d2bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0e13d38fef24ca9b2297ca93550d2bf\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that none of the advice I have received makes those statements. Furthermore, I note that the advice on which I based my decision is publicly available on the Environmental Protection Authority website. I also note that questions of whether the proposal meets the requirements of the Resource Management Act, including Part 2, is a matter for the independent board of inquiry considering the proposal. The board operates independently of Ministers and is tasked with considering the full range of Resource Management Act matters, including technical matters raised in submissions to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c229c9daac4d27a6bbc784524c8c63\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received any advice that plan change 6 in its current form does not give effect to the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, the New Zealand Coastal Policy Statement 2010, or section 67 of the Resource Management Act, which requires regional plans to give effect to the regional policy statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c0b49ca65544eb4aff93b116d8266ce\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my recollection, no. But what I can tell the member is that those matters she has raised are not matters that the Minister is properly able to take into account. The decision that has to be made by the Minister, and in this case joint Ministers, is consideration of the matter set out in section 142 of the Resource Management Act, which is very specifically related to whether the matter is one of national significance, and whether it should be called in and the appropriate body hear it. The matters that the member referred to in her question are matters for the independent board of inquiry hearing the proposal to turn their minds to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0777553f354366a7707e533a97cb76\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think that her colleague the Minister of Conservation, who was appraised of this information, should have shared the advice he had received about this plan change with her, given her responsibilities for the Resource Management Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f11d883bd83c4ab7a54c42eb0279617a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member has claimed in the question that I had access to a report, which I did not, until I heard it on Radio New Zealand National this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227112e78bb644e74a993ce97b28bfdac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not a point of order. It is very much a debating matter, but it is certainly within the hands of the Minister to now answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bcbfaf232334e34b659f1113213185d\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have no ministerial responsibility for what advice or information my colleague had, but what I can tell the member is that both myself and the Minister of Conservation properly turned our minds to all of the appropriate matters under section 142 of the Resource Management Act when we made our joint decision that it was a matter of national significance and that it should be referred to an independent board of inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd752a72ea148a198845ea94345225b\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the advice has just been tabled today in the House by Russel Norman, in considering that information\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220442185d868a445581cc91b593e4a57d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: A draft submission. A draft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f143069081894920aeda71f05b39de27\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014draft or otherwise\u2014is it her purpose, in proposing to change Part 2 of the Resource Management Act and prioritise development over environmental protections, to allow such plan changes as this one to go through more easily with fewer legal objections regardless of environmental impacts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00c727b088544d187c6b1495a09658d\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e3f183fe924c19ac79367f64662595\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table, in addition to the other material I was going to table, which has been tabled, a report from the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Adviser called The role of evidence in policy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b312723cc3d4d0ead9f11a71e2387a8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is a document that is available to all members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d1b1c799df142fba1c984c553dfef9f\u0022\u003EChild Protection\u2014Legislative Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b462e867e31749759e22a618bc77d3b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b462e867e31749759e22a618bc77d3b4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development: How will the Vulnerable Children Bill make a difference for those children most at risk of abuse and neglect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022d222d2642a824c7aa054ed3f78518f11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d222d2642a824c7aa054ed3f78518f11\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is first and foremost about protecting vulnerable children. We are putting the children first. The bill introduces joint Government accountability, requires agencies working with children to have child protection policies and new standard safety checks in place, and creates tougher orders for offenders who pose a high risk of abusing or neglecting children into the future. This work is being driven not just by my own and this Government\u2019s passion to better protect children but also the determination of a number of New Zealanders who have contributed to this process. I am hoping that there is cross-party support across this House for this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d03d8063a4114edb975df5630dde7ea5\u0022\u003EHon Phil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: How will the child harm prevention orders better protect children from adults who may harm them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf3d844f7af414c859289ec895275e7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The child harm prevention orders will apply to people who have been convicted of, or found on the balance of probabilities to have committed, a qualifying offence against a child and pose a high risk of harming children in the future. I have heard that other parties have concerns around some of the checks and balances, so we want to outline a few of them. Each order needs two health assessments, from a clinical psychologist and a health assessor nominated by the respondent. They will be reviewed annually by the review panel and may be discharged if the person can demonstrate that they are no longer a risk. The orders will also be in line with the level of risk of reoffending or offending against a child. It will be for that period of time, and, as I say, it may not be that they all cannot be at a park; it might be that they are just banned from a particular house and restricted from being there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022377d4b2776e04a6e81bab5f9a8f79a3c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: What role does the Government, community organisations, and the public have to play in the Children\u2019s Action Plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0b92b70c450497e978cbb4cb9067bc2\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Without a doubt, all three are the answer to some of these issues. When it comes to New Zealand\u2019s record on child abuse, it is, quite frankly, appalling. More than 50 children have died in the last 5 years because of extreme abuse. A child under 2 is hospitalised every 5 days because of abuse. Every year Child, Youth and Family substantiates around 22,000 cases of physical, sexual, emotional abuse and neglect, and those are just the ones that we know about. We all have a role to play in better protecting children from abuse and neglect. The legislation that will be introduced into the House shortly plays a very significant, but only one, part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224bdb512a45204de19a0d5242fb605457\u0022\u003EHousing, Affordable\u2014Auckland Property Market and Commentary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022b542e1089ceb4795ada6940ad848aef9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b542e1089ceb4795ada6940ad848aef9\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Does he believe there is a housing affordability crisis in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed34f826da3c41c59e413b87931b867c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed34f826da3c41c59e413b87931b867c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E The best measure is the Roost Mortgage Brokers affordability index, published monthly for each region, which measures the proportion of income needed for a person earning the median income to pay the mortgage on a median-priced house. The least affordable time on record was in Auckland in December 2007, when it hit 101 percent. The Minister of Housing at the time, Maryan Street, said that that was not a crisis. It is currently at 76 percent in Auckland. This drop reflects the increase in incomes and the lowering of interest rates since December 2007. I actually believe that at over 100 percent it would be a crisis. At 76 percent it is very challenging, and that is why this Government has so much work under way to make housing more affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be2b2cf7654a4ed5804b12be64804ef2\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table analysis from Quotable Value that shows that the price of the average home in Auckland has risen by 38 percent since December 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f949cea5ee584ba9a9c4be9d4aa3a37f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Where have you sourced the document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222713885d3d3f4e86965263f7c7c85ba3\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I have sourced this from Quotable Value. It is analysis that it has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37c34b9f4ef46d38c0b9d4c69e6eeff\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will put the leave. That is the easiest way of sorting it out. Leave is sought to table such analysis from Quotable Value. Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none. It can be so tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3e11beb12b445e82a980a12a44dc8e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the Roost Mortgage Brokers house affordability index that shows that it was at 101 percent in December 2007 in Auckland\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff8197eb12448538f17104e4277a4bd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is a satisfactory explanation. Leave is sought to table the affordability index. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is none. It can be so tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d2e1ab069dd4cb79a7751486843803e\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Government\u2019s spokesperson on TV3\u2019s The Vote programme when he said that a $130,000 deposit is not out of reach for the average first-home buyer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d6ca7adc22a440c8fd03b57b8231d7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It would be helpful if the member correctly and fully quoted my colleague, who made it plain that it would be a stretch. I also note that this Government has trebled the number of Welcome Home Loans and KiwiSaver home deposit subsidies to help families in that member\u2019s electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da7ed5c5fc574bab84b0fd71325c3267\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Are there \u201Cplenty\u201D of affordable homes in the electorate of Maungakiekie, as stated by the Government\u2019s spokesperson on that programme; if so, will his Government policy to ration mortgages help or hinder first-home buyers to buy those affordable homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229270e64eb46413a8b364b8adcbaae10\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: In the first instance, this Government, on 1 October, will treble\u2014treble\u2014the number of Welcome Home Loans, and particularly increase them in the city of Auckland, because we have real policies that will make a positive difference. I also note that last week the Auckland Council unanimously adopted the Auckland Housing Accord after that member said that it never would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cd73a0dea1744359cbabc14028eca26\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Is he surprised that 72 percent of those who voted on that television programme supported the Opposition\u2019s housing policies, and only 28 percent voted for the Government\u2019s housing policies; if so, does he take such an overwhelming, crushing rejection of his policies personally, or is it that people just do not understand him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225626c60770644a40b2b1a48f8bf5f304\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The most telling part of the programme was the press release the day before it went to air from the Green Party saying that actually it was not really part of its policy to wreck the equity that most New Zealanders have in their home, and apologising for the mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb8416d08a254b5098e57e57e5219df2\u0022\u003ESchools, Partnership\u2014Successful Applicants and Non-registered Teaching Staff\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022c19156b1ac7744b1aca85c47c522d81b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c19156b1ac7744b1aca85c47c522d81b\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has she made on partnership schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u00220fafdba6efde4a919139169a18e47c3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fafdba6efde4a919139169a18e47c3e\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Today I was really pleased to join the Prime Minister and the Hon John Banks, the Associate Minister of Education, in announcing five partnership schools kura hourua. They are The Rise UP Academy, M\u0101ngere East; South Auckland Middle School, South Auckland; Te Kura Hourua o Whangarei Terenga Paraoa, Whangarei; Te Kura Hourua ki Whangaruru, Whangaruru, Northland; and Vanguard Military School, Albany, North Shore. I welcome these schools as another model in our already diverse range of schooling options aimed at raising achievement for all our children and young people. I thank all those who have contributed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e18c442d82a84257b49753f675a39f15\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but the level of interjection now is at a stage where I am having trouble listening to the Minister. I apologise to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf73fb3c904d45d092103e75536fb224\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I should like to thank all those who have contributed so constructively to the process to date, unwilling as we are on this side of the House to condone the status quo of failure for specific groups of children and young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187846383adf4b8d9bd164e614b253f2\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: How will partnership schools raise achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292ef2ee43c4847fe98a9cf9d03eb6cd3\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The schools will have greater freedom and flexibility to innovate and engage with their students, in return for stronger accountability for improving educational outcomes. These schools will particularly focus on the children and young people who are not being successful in our mainstream system. Partnership schools kura hourua will be accountable to the Government for raising achievement through a contract to deliver specific school-level targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022018b683b064c4d979dbe7539b980cfca\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What proportion of those teaching in the approved partnership schools will be required to be registered teachers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a2f95f2fc7840c18fba136db1fd8a13\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: All five schools are going to be delivering the New Zealand curriculum and/or Te Marautanga o Aotearoa. In the delivery of the core curriculum, registered teachers will be delivering those, together with those who hold limited authority to teach that provide co-curricular activities, together with some who are not registered teachers but who are skilled, for instance, in equine husbandry, defence force preparation, engineering, carving, and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e413e11c96f423c9965696bbd775b54\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was actually a very specific, straightforward question, asking her what proportion of those teaching in partnership schools were required to be registered teachers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09bf4f594ec4b4bad742bca57fa1fe7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard the question. I think that, to be fair to the Minister, it was actually difficult to hear the question because of the level of noise, particularly from the Government side. Can I ask the member to repeat the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220609b297ac4458f9449a0c17dcf3219\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What proportion of those teaching in the approved partnership schools will be required to be registered teachers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2bf13551849414b9629340558495bc8\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: We have accepted contracts with the proposed sponsors and they are different across each of the schools. For The Rise UP Academy, it will be 100 percent registered teachers. For Te Kura Hourua o Whangarei Terenga Paraoa, it will be 79 percent. For the other three schools, it will depend on the division between core curriculum and Te Marautanga o Aotearoa and co-curricular activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022488e3842a0c6406582338d44b5bc2c8c\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the answer that the Minister gave there, but I am struggling to understand why she was unable to give that answer to my colleague when he asked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281db20036b134af4952b5d79afa95f38\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not a point of order. I explained when I rose to accept a repeat of the question from your colleague Chris Hipkins that it was possibly because of the level of noise that it was difficult to hear the question. When the Minister heard the question, I think she made a very adequate response to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e037c948bb114626bd9dffafd8fcc6b2\u0022\u003EResource Management Act Reforms\u2014Environmental Protection and Commentary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00224a1aa659e863437da6129f7ecd460d46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a1aa659e863437da6129f7ecd460d46\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Will she ditch the Government\u2019s proposal to remove references to the \u201Cethic of stewardship\u201D, the \u201Cmaintenance and enhancement of amenity values\u201D, the \u201Cmaintenance and enhancement of the quality of the environment\u201D and the \u201Cintrinsic value of ecosystems\u201D from the Resource Management Act 1993; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00228e369e9512c74d5ab55d5e18d18819b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e369e9512c74d5ab55d5e18d18819b2\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, it appears the member may not have read the proposals, because it has been proposed that the reference to ecosystems be not only retained but in fact elevated, with the clause clarified to state that the effective functioning of ecosystems be raised to be a matter of national importance. On the other matters the member raises, the Government has indicated that it is our view that those matters are already adequately provided for in Part 2 of the Act, and this remains our position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079fcbed1d8648fa83a5805e554ba65e\u0022\u003EEugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Hon Tariana Turia wrong when she said the Resource Management Act was designed to ensure that our use of natural resources is sustainable, and that the Government\u2019s proposed changes to Part 2 undermine the whole purpose of the Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5ce1023bfe46b68207ac46adb9ef35\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Minister Turia was certainly correct in her statement on the purpose of the Act, and the Government has no intention\u2014and never has had\u2014of amending the purpose of the Act. In respect of her characterisation of our changes, she is, of course, entitled to her opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022822f6729cd0d4a6c846160506604e801\u0022\u003EEugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Hon Peter Dunne wrong when he said that the Government\u2019s proposed changes to the Resource Management Act will make matters worse for the environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228992124d95dd4ba7be19c7f00cb5f465\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, Mr Dunne is certainly entitled to his opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022536017e33cca4a2d95a0f2ccbdc0a60d\u0022\u003EEugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Will her proposed Resource Management Act amendment bill now retain the hierarchy of matters of national importance and other matters in the current Act to avoid creating considerable uncertainty and losing 20 years of case law on the meaning of sustainable management?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc490019a9c6407aa0ace28590b23a0a\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Every time that this Parliament creates or changes law it always creates a period of time in which people have to adjust to those new provisions. If we were to not do anything, on the basis that any change would create uncertainty, we might as well all pack up and go home now. Our proposal is about creating far more certainty in the system over time, and it would be wrong and foolhardy to pull out one aspect of the proposals and focus on whether that single aspect of change creates more or less uncertainty. The proposal is a package. The objective of the package is to create more certainty, less time, less cost, and far better outcomes for communities. That is still the intention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4818d37fc94451aef0a800b2cd0134\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has she had from iwi and M\u0101ori groups regarding the maintenance and enhancement of the quality of the environment and any effects the proposed changes will have on their role as kaitiaki, or guardians?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e02fef2f687c4d8da980f7a502f4e934\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: We have certainly had considerable feedback from iwi and M\u0101ori groups on the changes to sections 6 and 7, and as a result of that feedback we have made a number of changes to the draft provisions. Kaitiakitanga is, of course, to be elevated from a matter that the decision makers must have regard to, to becoming a matter of national importance, which must be recognised and provided for. Of course, the role of iwi in planning is one of the key ways in which iwi exercise their role as kaitiaki, and those provisions around planning and iwi involvement in it received considerable support from iwi and M\u0101ori groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022108e73c438f44f7ba2be1b6e9717e496\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s position that the changes to Part 2 of the Act are necessary for the process changes that she is proposing to other parts of the Act to have any impact\u2014in other words, that you cannot make the second set of changes without making the first set?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbef6537d5534c4485976137d16b2f53\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is certainly my view that the proposal is a package and has to be viewed as such. Part 2 is a critical part of the Act, and that is the reason it has attracted so much attention and debate. It is fundamental to the way that the whole of the rest of the Act is read and applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f68851a5c494af4a3a2ed03ba294850\u0022\u003EIntelligence Agencies\u2014Legality of Operations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c64be2b1630d4e1b881cb7f094c5b5e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c64be2b1630d4e1b881cb7f094c5b5e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Why did he say in regard to the raid on the Fiji Democracy and Freedom movement, \u201CI stand 100 percent by what I said before: any actions that the SIS or the GCSB take in my opinion are legal \u2026\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b02ea7e693d04181afb31e539394b9e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b02ea7e693d04181afb31e539394b9e5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Because I believe that to be the case. I do think it is important to repeat the full statement I gave at the time, which is that I said: \u201CI stand 100 percent by what I said before: any actions that the SIS or the GCSB take in my opinion are legal with the exception of the case of Mr Dotcom.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c81f8b26b3412186d96b1fc7066916\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If that is true, why did the SIS officer leading the raid on Mr Singh fail to identify herself and fail to produce a search warrant when questioned, claiming that it was classified, both of which failings are a breach of section 131 of the Search and Surveillance Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf763fb6bf8046fdbd63454d8bfb92fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not in a position to comment on that. I do not have those details, but I will say that I understand that there has been a radio report\u2014at least, I have been advised that Mr Singh said that he complained to the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. I am advised that the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service has no record of a formal complaint to the inspector-general in relation to what the member is talking about. If Mr Singh feels there is a problem, he should follow his legal rights and make a complaint to the inspector-general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c0b37f1518487aa367b481c5ee5078\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter from the Office of the Ombudsmen, setting out Mr Singh\u2019s right to have the matter referred on to the inspector-general by the Office of the Ombudsmen, which he requested of them and which they did do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218bc482a0999469b888f1ed70b9469de\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So it is a letter from the Office of the Ombudsmen that the member is seeking to table. Is there any objection to that being tabled? There appears to be none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a891a140783423a8f2efcd6cc1bcc1b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How does he explain Colonel Mosese Tikoitoga\u2019s texting Mr Rajesh Singh, alerting him to the SIS raid already taking place in Mr Singh\u2019s home, if the Fiji military did not receive advice in advance; and, as Minister, how does he explain that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f9b95dda784b728a3bd547263aeea8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any of the details that the member is talking about. I stand by the statement I said earlier, which is that in my opinion any actions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227441d8e752534a33b53ff441feaa05c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a most serious matter to do with the rights of people who live in this country legally. The Prime Minister was giving all sorts of answers up in Majura in the Marshall Islands on this a week ago, and now he comes with no evidence whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784f3dd0347142eab31de66d7f509d04\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked a question about how the Prime Minister explained the texting to Mr Singh, etc. The Prime Minister was halfway through that answer\u2014and he may not have the details; that is a legitimate answer\u2014before the member was jumping to his feet claiming that this is a most important matter. That is not a legitimate use of a point of order. If the member is unhappy with the answer and if he has further supplementary questions to use, he should so use them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae52c3e11d214f428aecc9815f966676\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That would be the case if the Prime Minister could generally say it about that, but up in the Marshall Islands just the other day he was making all sorts of statements and slurs about the evidence before this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286df11e69a91422cb54ba091f4fcc32c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have heard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b851da7a68b6468f9c7f902e272c2308\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That is why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227004ffb4a1ed4b979fa6746118053b1a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have heard quite enough from the member. If he wants to stay to complete his question, I advise him to start asking supplementary questions. If he is going to raise points of order that are not valid, and if he persists with that, I will have no choice but to ask the member to leave the Chamber. Supplementary\u2014does the member want to complete his answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c06a3fcb54be4481825b69ddc7c8f61b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It would probably be a good idea. I should complete my answer, which is that I do not have details. I have never had details about the text messages that the member speaks of. Secondly, I stand by the statement that in my opinion in all instances the SIS and the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) have acted legally, with the exception of the case of Mr Dotcom. And I repeat what I actually said in the Marshall Islands, which was that if the member has some evidence and he believes there has been unlawful activity, then he should feel free to take that to the inspector-general or the police or bring it to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8aaa10a3de14f1c9ec8a454fc2bf258\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why would one go to the inspector-general when the inspector-general had this matter referred to him by no less a body than the Office of the Ombudsmen, and, secondly, the Prime Minister has not even responded to the complainant for all these months since then, or come to his office, and then, when he is pushed on it in the House, he claims to have no knowledge whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279471dc3a71546b6a15b0db8c73a4092\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, it will not get scarier because the member raises his voice. I am advised that the office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has no record of a complaint by anyone named Rajesh Singh. If Mr Singh wants to make a complaint, he is free to do so. The letter that the member spoke of before\u2014I am guessing, but I am pretty sure I will be right\u2014would have been laying out the rights of Mr Singh under the law to make a complaint to the inspector-general, if he wants to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d714a775db3144bbbd968a00a426d8a2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I tabled a document because that document specifically was an offer by the Office of the Ombudsmen to pass on Mr Singh\u2019s information for him if he so desired, which he did request in a telephone call. Now we are being treated to more information from the Prime Minister, or disinformation, when it is simply not relevant to the information that the House needs by way of answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb0750fe73da46bba75aaebee28f21f9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am not sure what that point of order is, either. Again, the member asked a\u2014[Interruption] Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245131ed5e0444cc9b31db85cda150234\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I will take it through for you very slowly. The Prime Minister said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b95f4b3b48c4d058327436040895f2d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will give the right honourable member the chance to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bbb3b07d0714da98112245c87670d52\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister\u2019s inference in two answers today is that the inspector-general\u2019s office was never advised of Mr Singh\u2019s complaint. That tabling of those documents was to prove that the document from Mr Singh by way of complaint went off to the inspector-general. So why is the Prime Minister repeating disinformation and obfuscating in his answers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d92345bb3bc44b089a3b4a7b42449d7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is certainly not a point of order. The member needs to go back and look at the question that he asked. It was a question about why anybody would go to the inspector-general, or to the Prime Minister either, and he gave you a reason for doing so. The Prime Minister adequately addressed that. If the member has a further supplementary question, he is welcome to use it, but to continue to relitigate an answer that is given, by using a point of order, will lead to disorder in this House. I will not warn that member again today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e881aac4cc45e4b24516e771d2422e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why should anybody in New Zealand follow the Prime Minister\u2019s advice and trust him, as we heard him say time after time in the GCSB debate, when there are scores of text messages confirming the Fiji military Government\u2019s clear prior knowledge of the SIS raid and associated actions, including the Government of New Zealand working closely with the Government in Fiji, as the Prime Minister hinted in a One News item on 19 July 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1ca3751a48645c29a9ae98e65ba64a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not believe it is in the national interest for me to go through all of the details of this particular case, but let me state once again that in my opinion any actions taken by the SIS or the Government Communications Security Bureau have always been lawful with the one exception of Mr Dotcom. If anybody believes their actions are not lawful, they should follow their legal rights and take them to the police or the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, or they are welcome to bring them to me. The fact that they have not taken those steps probably speaks volumes. But what I can say to the member is this: I know a lot more about this issue than he ever will, and he is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee629002d23847f382d1e13334280a42\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a102a6aee013449e95d2f1962e1eae13\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have not called the member yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216cf05d43211415e873036070036a08a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Perhaps, Mr Speaker, you can explain to me how the last part of that answer was remotely relevant, given your decisions in respect of questions I have asked?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f35479f00c488ca0b2ca33ab203f59\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I invite the member to go back and look at the tone of the question he asked. I thought he was given a very adequate answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d693b5ebc4d24498ab861766dc83c2ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a number of documents\u2014first of all, a complaint from Rajesh Singh dated 19 July to the Office of the Ombudsmen, the Office of the Ombudsmen\u2019s reply dated 20 July, a further letter dated 24 July from Rajesh Singh to the Office of the Ombudsmen, and a 24 July letter from the Office of the Ombudsmen back to him offering to pass on the information to the inspector-general. In fact, one, two, three\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3c3a3637f364032b72f0c76644d5fa9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We do not need that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220174a23b31a84a6d9112fdcaf963fe85\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, wait on\u2014it is all here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022526fa00a566349b98fe01950c150ff96\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224376e348641d47039c7d89db2f3827d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It is all here. Plus there are 16 texts that were sent on the cellphone of Colonel Tikoitoga, the Commander, Land Force in Fiji, to Mr Rajesh Singh; and a further 41 texts also sent by the commander of the Fiji forces on this matter; and further, a receipt document from the SIS as to the computers and technology machinery they took away from Mr Singh at the time of this illegal raid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d55051ea2b8148a895f4ad44d53103e7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table a number of documents. If I can summarise them quickly, they are correspondence between a complainant and the Office of the Ombudsmen. Does anybody have any objection to that detailed information being tabled? There is none. It can be so tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022460a6fffa29f4935a3872e682d23d79e\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Defence Force\u2014External Safety Management Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002269ef319132f945f5a2cc6ffaf1c5248e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269ef319132f945f5a2cc6ffaf1c5248e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Does he accept all of the conclusions of the New Zealand Defence Force External Safety Management Review; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u0022317a2410ded5401a80d7bf7505e127fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022317a2410ded5401a80d7bf7505e127fe\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The independent review panel makes a number of observations throughout the report and there are 20 detailed recommendations. The New Zealand Defence Force has accepted and welcomed these recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223c00df9adac4e9aa180e57489f9ff7b\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: When this report says that the Government has failed for more than 2 years to implement any of the key recommendations of the previous 2011 Cosman review on safety in the Defence Force, does he as Minister accept responsibility for that, or is it his intention\u2014unannounced, as yet\u2014to sack the Chief of the Defence Force, Lieutenant General Rhys Jones, and make him the scapegoat for the Government\u2019s failures in defence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f22dbaff122548a49125e29bba32cbc7\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: No. The report does not actually say that. The previous review was in the process of being implemented, but it actually covers a narrower set of circumstances than this current review. I would also point out that when that man, Phil Goff, was the Minister of Defence, he did nothing to address defence safety, and, indeed, the accident rate was the same under Labour\u2019s tenure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1f29d6a8087457ca8648c7a3bef156c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister\u2019s denial that this report says that, I seek leave of the House to table the report to show that I am right and that the Minister is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b0112aa917a4a7f813b3800c3f984e8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a report that is freely available to members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721e1369a8a34e83a48c7691c3d1df03\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: It is on the net, but it is not widely available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cffbd1c055314f7db1095a6702fe0586\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If it is on the net, then they can go and search for it if they want to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220787d940e124e3f8dc52e5e49e7541a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister repeatedly deny in Parliament that cost cutting, restructuring, high attrition, and low morale had anything to do with the accident rate in the Defence Force, when this report points out very clearly that all of those factors do have an impact and have had an impact on having more accidents in the Defence Force than we needed or that we should have had?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0eca183cc042819bcc361988611123\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Actually the report says nothing of the sort. The fact is that Vote Defence was the same this year as the year before, and there has not been a cut in the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd248bc64ac54a50bdaf9ab12402afe8\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: When the report found that up to 5 percent of all navy life jackets did not have, as they should have, an inflation device attached to them, and that that was the key cause of the death of Private Michael Ross, what does that say about the state of the Defence Force under this National Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb42d45a774548568279216663375864\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what it says is that there were issues with life jackets that the National Government has addressed but that in 9 years Labour never did anything about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224334bc472d47468a90d5f8131f6c0f75\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you explain to me what remedy a member asking a question has, and who cannot table a report, when the Minister simply says things that are untrue about what is in it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb8d24eef234d2d8cd77cfe6f8daeb0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member is now using the point of order system to again disagree with the answer he has been given. He asked what response the Government was taking, and the Minister said he is taking a lot more action than the previous Government did. That is a legitimate answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885a4d2ee2c24f79bb89d864070d6b7f\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: He said things in the report, Mr Speaker, that are not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51ae93a26d54491934c3f6f8d33595a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If the member wants to raise a breach of privilege, he knows the procedure to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276503a8a98534e3b9310f15332d400e0\u0022\u003EVulnerable Children Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022987c0cd3211f4771960626047e4dc4e4\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb4559fce95644f7aad6304b907af3e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb4559fce95644f7aad6304b907af3e2\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Vulnerable Children Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services Committee to consider the bill. I am going to speak quickly, as there is a lot of detail I would like to get through, and I know that that will be a surprise to everyone! This omnibus bill proposes two new Acts: the Vulnerable Children Act and the Child Harm Prevention Orders Act. It amends the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989 and the KiwiSaver Act 2006, and it makes consequential amendments to a number of other Acts. This bill is about protecting vulnerable children and putting that priority ahead of the needs of adults. These changes are bold and, by their nature, controversial. This work has been driven not just by\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e4ebc7c58dd4120a3f5050a0a4013c2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. Would members leaving the Chamber please do so quietly and show some courtesy to the member who is trying to address us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc490c0626247f0ae576fd1c9a8967e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. These changes are bold and, by their nature, controversial. This work has been driven not just by my own and this Government\u2019s passion to better protect children but also by the determination of the New Zealand public to address this country\u2019s horrific record of child abuse. I hope Opposition parties will at least support this bill going to the select committee so that it can be heard there. I can say, hand on heart, that I have not played party politics with this work, and I believe that it is above politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EEvery year Child, Youth and Family substantiates 22,000 cases of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse and neglect. We have already introduced significant changes that are making a difference, and there is an enormous amount of work under way on the Children\u2019s Action Plan. For me, personally, the most important work I will ever do as a Minister is contained in the Children\u2019s Action Plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EFirstly, the bill aims to make Government agencies jointly accountable to a responsible Minister for producing, reviewing, and reporting on a vulnerable children\u2019s plan. The measure, combined with clear child protection policies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b48d9561364ecfa3ff55ea3aa963b5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Courtesy is contagious. I am looking to the members on my right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e4ebedc6f34e5fa530d30740e17c58\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014will help to ensure that front-line staff take responsibility for keeping children safe from abuse and neglect. The bill also introduces measures to protect children from adults who may harm them. Finally, it addresses how we can better respond to those children who have already been harmed and are in the care of the State. The legislative programme will ensure that changes are enduring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a new requirement for certain chief executives to collectively develop and report on a vulnerable children\u2019s plan. That plan must set out how these agencies will work together towards collectively achieving the Government\u2019s priorities for vulnerable children. Chief executives will have to report annually on that plan, and answer to the responsible Minister on whether, or on the extent to which, each agency has implemented the plan for these children. The plan will be made public. Do not underestimate the power of this unprecedented move. Never before in this country have the chief executives of health, education, police, and justice had this specific accountability for vulnerable children. Now they will, alongside the Ministry of Social Development, of course. It will significantly change the way they work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThese five agencies, as well as Te Puni K\u014Dkiri and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, are all well represented on the Vulnerable Children\u2019s Board. That board is an important part in the accountability chain, leading from the children\u2019s teams working on the ground, up to a ministerial oversight group. To support better identification and reporting of child abuse and neglect, this bill requires clear child protection policies to be introduced. Specified Government organisations, including district health boards and boards of trustees of State schools, integrated State schools, and partnership schools must have child protection policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe bill also requires these agencies providing children\u2019s services, as well as those they contract or fund, to adopt policies on identifying and reporting child abuse and neglect. Too often, individuals and organisations know of abuse but do not take the required action. There will no longer be justifiable excuses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI now turn to screening and vetting of what we call the children\u2019s workforce. Although many organisations have checks in place to ensure that unsuitable people do not work with children, there is no consistent approach, and there are a number of gaps. The bill will introduce a rigorous approach to vetting and screening, with new standard safety checks of the children\u2019s workforce in New Zealand. This approach will reduce the risk of children being harmed by those who are entrusted to look after them and to work around them. The legislative scope of the standard safety check regime focuses first on paid employees within the Government sector and the services that they fund. Beyond that, it provides voluntary guidance for all other organisations to encourage sound practices in safety checking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe bill will specify the minimum checks that must be conducted, and further detail will be outlined in regulations and guidelines. A workforce restriction will be based on a list of qualifying offences in order to prevent known child abusers and offenders from having control of, or working alone with, children. The workforce restriction will apply to the same category of organisations as the requirement to conduct standard safety checks. There are cases where children have been abused because a dangerous individual got close enough to do so, sometimes literally by moving into their home. We will not tolerate abusive adults having that freedom and that power over children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are sick of known abusers repeatedly hurting more children. It is time to put those children first. This bill introduces civil orders to be made against those who pose a high risk of abusing or neglecting children in the future. These orders will be called child harm prevention orders, and I want to acknowledge the Hon Judith Collins for the work that she and her department did in pulling this together. These orders will apply where a person has been convicted of, or found on the balance of probabilities to have committed, a qualifying offence. Only three individuals can make an application for a child harm prevention order. They are the chief executives of the Department of Corrections and the Ministry of Social Development and the Commissioner of Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe High Court or the District Court must be satisfied that the person poses a high risk of causing serious harm to a child or children in the future, in order to place these restrictions. The restrictions will be proportionate with the level of risk the person poses. Restrictions may apply to a specific child or home or to loitering in parks and other areas where children may be. The duration of the order will be for the period necessary to provide the required degree of protection to children, up to a maximum of 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EBecause these orders are new, we have put new checks in place as well. They will be reviewed once every 12 months by a panel, to determine the continuing justification for the order and the terms imposed. The chief executive of the monitoring agency and the person subject to the order can apply for a review at any time, and the court must also review the order every 3 years. Child harm prevention orders will better protect children from abusers. Cabinet thought long and hard about these orders, cognisant of the trade-off between individual freedoms and preventing potential abuse of children. Unapologetically, we have come down on the side of children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E To improve the lives of our most vulnerable children who have suffered abuse and neglect, this bill includes amendments to the Children, Young Persons, and their Families Act to clarify section 13(a), \u201Cthe principle that children and young persons must be protected from harm, their rights upheld, and their welfare promoted;\u201D. It strengthens family group conferences and court plans so that parental obligations include steps to be taken before a child placed out of the home can be returned to a parent\u2019s care, as well as definite decision time frames about a child\u2019s future. It allows external family group conference coordinators to be appointed, includes new guardianship provisions to increase stability for children with home-for-life caregivers, and includes an obligation on the chief executive of the Ministry of Social Development to provide specific types of financial assistance to the permanent caregiver of a child or young person. It establishes a Family Court review, an appeal process for permanent caregivers who consider that the chief executive of the Ministry of Social Development has wrongly or unreasonably declined financial assistance, and it provides more support for those young people aged 15 right through to 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThat is very important, because we see too many of them going out on their own when they are 17, and it is too young for some and just not right. The financial backing really will help these young people. There is the issue of the safety of subsequent children. There are significant risks to children born into the care of parents who have already had children permanently removed, or in whose care children have died due to abuse or neglect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ECurrently, when abusive parents have a subsequent child come to the attention of Child, Youth and Family, the child\u2019s safety is assessed and then, if Child, Youth and Family believes that the child is unsafe, it takes the case to court to prove it. We will reverse that burden of proof. There is hope that that person can prove they have changed, but they will have to show they have taken steps that mean they are no longer unsafe and they actually can look after a child and put that child\u2019s needs first. It is unfortunate but necessary if we are truly to protect those children who are coming along, and we know that past behaviour is an indicator of future behaviour and is absolutely important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThat was a lot and very quickly. It is an unfortunate reality that these changes are necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aa0e295e8f4424aae8e4e02ef94779c\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re working too hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7b7a43f37642b08422bdff6efdd2dc\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Something like that. This legislation will make a fundamental difference to protecting the most vulnerable children and allowing them to thrive. We are doing everything we can for New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable children, and these changes complement the work already under way. I move that the Social Services Committee consider the Vulnerable Children Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00223c2d6d3d708c4527a86ffdea0b590125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c2d6d3d708c4527a86ffdea0b590125\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister for Social Development, for outlining the rationale behind what is a bill with many, many elements to it, and one for which I hope the Social Services Committee will have enough time and space available for both ourselves and the public to give due consideration to the bill. I also want to acknowledge, Minister, that there has been a long process in reaching this final stage for the Vulnerable Children Bill, beginning with the green paper. It is correct that at the time the green paper was first brought into the public domain, it was Labour\u2019s view that enough evidence already existed around what we needed to do collectively to address the challenge of not only child protection issues but wider child well-being issues. But there is no doubt that since the green paper process began, there has been unprecedented engagement both by the general public and also by those who work in the children\u2019s sector more generally. From the green paper process to the white paper process, then finally through to the action plan, I think there have been two very clear messages that have come through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe first has been the desire that Parliament\u2014but particularly the Government\u2014brought in its perspective around the issue of vulnerability. It is a plea that Labour has made continually\u2014that if you want to look at well-being for children generally, if you want to take a preventative approach to child protection issues, we do need to look at issues like child poverty. It is one of the single biggest determinants for child well-being if you look at all of the research and evidence that exist. There are small glimmers in this bill around the action plan that the Minister intends for Government departments to come on board with where we could use that action plan to ensure that a family\u2019s economic well-being is a key consideration for the Government. I will come to that. But we must make sure that that is what happens, and at the moment it is a bit of an open question. So that would be Labour\u2019s first plea: let us broaden the perspective that we take on child well-being; let us consider child poverty. Let us act on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe agree with the Minister that we must work together. There was a strong message that the public wanted a cross-party approach that goes beyond electoral cycles when it comes to child protection issues. I agree with the Minister that we should be able to take the politics out of it and it should come down to a simple matter of an evidence base. In fact, that has been Labour\u2019s hope from the beginning. We made the offer to work collaboratively in October 2009, we made it again in July 2011, and I made it again in January 2012. It is an offer I make again today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221436b18669d34b66b5171a6be3add6bc\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Respond to my letter then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3278129ef844488e873b9fb3a42203\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I also responded to the Minister today on her broader question around the Children\u2019s Action Plan, and, more specifically, the Children\u2019s Teams. Labour gives its pledge that in Government we will continue with the broad framework that has been set out by the Minister. We maintain our right, however, to review the action plan based on evidence, continue what is working, and revise what is not. We maintain our position that we have severe concerns with the risk predictor model, and, as I have stated, that we wish to broaden generally the view of child well-being and be much more holistic. But we believe we would be doing a disservice to the sector and the public who have engaged in this process if we were to dump the plan as a whole. There are good elements to this plan. We acknowledge that. That is the pledge that Labour gives today to the sector and to the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to go through some of the key elements of this particular bill, though, to highlight some of the areas that we will be looking at at the select committee. As the Minister has highlighted, one key element of this bill actually brings together something that Labour has been advocating for some time via our Child Poverty Reduction and Eradication Bill, and that this to have a cross-government plan for children\u2019s well-being. Probably where there is one main point of difference, though, is that Labour wants to see the Government commit to targets to reduce child poverty. At the moment we have a general framework, but we have no specific targets. We think it is much easier to hold the Government to account, whichever party happens to be in Government, if we are very specific about what we hope to achieve. So that is something that we will be asking questions about at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe also want assurances from the Government that the one note in the bill about the action plan, the Vulnerable Children\u2019s Plan, can include improving children\u2019s economic and social well-being. We want to see what, specifically, that means, and whether it means we will be looking directly at child poverty. Otherwise, this element of the bill very closely mirrors the Labour member\u2019s bill that is in my name, and we are pleased to see that this element is going to progress more quickly in this form. But, like I said, we will be seeking a bit more meat on the bones when it comes to that plan, which is a bit of a hollow plan at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe second element of the bill is to require State services to have policies in place containing provisions on the identification and reporting of child abuse and neglect. This provision has been called pseudo-mandatory reporting. I understand the Minister\u2019s rationale for not going as far as having mandatory reporting. We ourselves have said that we think that before mandatory reporting comes into place, you need to have two elements. You need to have appropriate training for front-line workers who are required to identify child abuse and neglect. Otherwise, you run the risk of over-reporting and, as a result, either Child, Youth and Family being overwhelmed with reports of child abuse that are false reports or those most significant reports getting swamped and not addressed in a timely manner. So we will be seeking at the select committee some assurances and some evidence that training will be occurring, because it is not contained in this bill. The work that groups like Child Matters does should be happening across the board. If we are requiring some form of plan for reporting, we should be requiring that that training goes alongside it. We also want to ensure that Child, Youth and Family is appropriately resourced to deal with any increase in reporting. At the moment we are continually expressing our concern that it is under-resourced at present. That will be an issue that we will continue to raise in this House and at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe third element is the new standard safety checks for employees. There are a number of issues that we would like to get into. I believe that the Ministry of Education has been heavily involved in these provisions. One question I will raise now, though, is why, alongside this, we still have not made the step of mandatory registration for social workers. If we are seeking these kinds of safety checks for employees, surely we would finally take that step. I know that the registration board has been seeking that move for some time. Labour has been seeking that move for some time. We will want to explore at the select committee why we have not taken that step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EProbably one of the most controversial elements of this bill, though, is allowing for new civil orders, the child harm prevention orders. Labour has said from the outset that of course we want to support measures that protect children from harm, but we will be seeking evidence at the select committee that that is what these orders will do, particularly because this is such a significant change and because of the threshold around the burden required to impose a significant order. The regulatory impact statement by the Ministry of Justice tries to liken these orders to those in overseas jurisdictions, but, in fact, I have not seen any evidence of any overseas jurisdiction that allows an order to be in place where there has not been a criminal conviction. So that is a considerable change in the threshold. We accept that the Minister is still setting a bar that has to be reached via the justice system, but, still, it is on the balance of evidence rather than a criminal conviction. That deserves significant scrutiny at the select committee, and we have already expressed our concerns. Our spokesperson on justice, Andrew Little, will speak further to that point in his contribution to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to commend the fact that the Minister has heard concerns about children in foster care and their need for care to go beyond the age of 17. That is something I absolutely agree with. I believe that it should be legislated. I would like to see how far that support will go. I believe that it needs to go into pastoral care and not just financial care, and that is something that I look forward to discussing at the select committee. Equally, there is merit in reversing the onus of proof where parents have already proven that they have failed in their responsibility to care for their current children and where they look to have further children. I do believe that there is justification for reversing the onus, as the Minister has done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOverall, as I have said, Labour supports measures that evidence shows will protect children. We absolutely agree that children need to be at the centre of everything we do. We will bring in a Minister for Children. We will have a Ministry for Children. We will give greater support to the Children\u2019s Commissioner to be independent. We will make sure that children are, indeed, at the heart of everything we do, but we will also make sure that there is continuity of policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf31ecdf100747cf94cafe26f5cff9ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf31ecdf100747cf94cafe26f5cff9ed\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am going to take a short call on this matter. I do so specifically to deal with some of the issues that have been raised by the member who has just resumed her seat, Jacinda Ardern, in regard to the Vulnerable Children Bill, and, in particular, creating the new civil order called a child harm prevention order. I think that if we look at the background to this, we can see why this is absolutely necessary. Perhaps before I start into that, I will just assure the House that this matter will be going through the full Social Services Committee process. I welcome the debate and the tone of it so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMore than 50 children have died in New Zealand in the last 5 years not because of poverty, actually, but because of extreme abuse. I do not think for a moment that poverty is any excuse for killing one\u2019s child, or the child of somebody else either, or of harming them. Because of abuse, a child under 2 is hospitalised every 5 days in this country\u2014this country, the best country in the world, except for children who are abused. Every year Child, Youth and Family substantiates 22,000 cases of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse and neglect in this country of plenty, this country of free education, this country of opportunity, where some children\u2019s lives are destroyed by either their own families or the people whom their families allow into their homes, often because those families do not even realise what they are dealing with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIf we are going to look at poverty as an excuse, have a look at the convicted paedophile James Parker, the well-respected teacher from Northland who has destroyed the lives of families, children, and young men. It does not just stop because the offending stopped. It never stops, because every single day of those victims\u2019 lives they live with what that man has done to them. Of course, it does not affect just them; it affects their entire families, who now look to see what it is that they could have done differently. Well, they are not the perpetrators; they are also victims, but who can blame parents for wondering whether they could not have done something differently, and whether or not that might have saved their child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I would like to congratulate the Minister for Social Development, the Hon Paula Bennett, on the work that she has done in this area. I join with Miss Ardern in noting that she has undertaken an unprecedented amount of consultation in this area on a matter that, I think, concerns all right-thinking New Zealanders, who cannot for the life of us understand how anybody could harm a child on purpose. How could this be? The child harm prevention order is something that will be controversial for some. I make no apology for working with Minister Bennett on this area, and I congratulate her on having the courage to bring this matter to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThese orders aim to protect children from being abused or neglected by very high-risk adults. How many times have we heard of a child being killed or very seriously abused and then learnt that the perpetrator had a history of children in their care dying, being killed, or being seriously injured? How many times do we hear it, and how many times are we going to hear it before this Parliament really does sit up, take notice, do something about it, and do something to protect those children? What is more, these orders are a very clear example of our commitment to keeping people safe and reducing crime, because an ounce of prevention in this case is going to actually save a lifetime of misery, particularly for a child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E Currently available mechanisms do not always properly address the risk posed by some individuals. The tools either focus on a specific child or are too restrictive on the person whom they are imposed on. For example, the Family Court can impose a restraining order to prevent an adult from residing with a specific child. In contrast, child harm prevention orders will allow courts to restrict high-risk individuals from living, working, or associating with groups of children as well as with specific children. Another existing tool is extended supervision orders, which can be used to monitor, manage, and recall serious offenders to prison. However, extended supervision orders are applied only to people convicted of certain sexual offences. In contrast, child harm prevention orders will be imposed by the High Court or the District Court where a person is convicted of specific offences against children or has been found, on the balance of probabilities, to have committed such an offence. The person must also be assessed as posing a high risk of causing serious harm to other children. The member who has resumed her seat quite rightly notes that that is a pretty tall order. This is a world-leading provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would like to run through some of the reasons why we would want to have that. It is partly because a dead child cannot say who has killed them. A smashed baby cannot say who has done anything. If we want to have an example of what happens when adults, through all the fault of their own, refuse to take responsibility, let us just remember Chris and Cru K\u0101hui, the little twins, for whose murderous deaths nobody\u2014nobody\u2014has yet been convicted. Those children, those babies, could not say who killed them. Strangely enough, no adult living in that home knew, saw, or heard anything. I can tell this House this for nothing: I would not let any of those adults look after my dog, let alone a child, ever because they are not fit to be anywhere near a child, whether it is their child or anyone else\u2019s. I do not care for a moment that they have not been convicted; I would not let them near them. I would be there, taking them away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EEach order, though, must be able to be reviewed and these will be regularly reviewed by a review panel and the District Court or the High Court. The orders will last up to 10 years and can be renewed at the end of that period. It is important, and I think we should acknowledge, that there may be something in someone\u2019s life that for some reason means that they have abused a child\u2014in other words, they have taken those actions themselves and for which I hold them fully responsible. They may, however, turn their lives round. I believe in the power of redemption of people to change their lives, to turn their lives round, and to stop their behaviours. They will, in fact, be able to say: \u201CLook, I\u2019m a better person now. I\u2019ve learnt. I was under the influence of drugs, or whatever, but I have now owned my actions, and I will not be doing that again.\u201D They should be allowed to have that. I think that is, in fact, what gives these orders the ability to actually work. People can change their lives. But I am not silly enough or naive enough to believe that all people will change their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThese child harm prevention orders are a very important way of protecting our vulnerable children. They demonstrate our commitment and they demonstrate the commitment of the Minister. So Minister Bennett, I congratulate you. I believe that this bill is a bill that the select committee members will find very interesting, and I hope they bring it back in as good condition as it is being sent. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u002202eae7f01fb140578f221c979ef580c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202eae7f01fb140578f221c979ef580c6\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Namaste. Thank you very much for the opportunity to take a call in the first reading of the Vulnerable Children Bill, which will be a very important bill, in the series of important discussions in the Social Services Committee, and, indeed, through the other stages of this bill. I accept what the Minister for Social Development said about her sincerity in bringing this bill to the House, arising out of concern for our most vulnerable children, and that this is not politics. I hope the Minister will accept in return that this side of the House also is very sincere in trying to find solutions to longstanding problems around vulnerable children, and that the select committee will use all of its intelligence and all of the resources available to it to interrogate in depth what these proposals are about and whether or not they are likely to succeed. I hope that we will not rush through the process, and that we will have the information we require, and that the changes made to this bill will be as a consequence of collaborative discussion. So Minister, you have our assurances on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is often said and worth repeating that a nation\u2019s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members, and vulnerable children are certainly its weakest members. If we just use that quote as a standard, then greatness in this particular area is not something we can be proud of. I guess we can all take responsibility for that. But it is worth reflecting on how we got this way. New Zealand has one of the oldest child welfare systems in the world. When Minnie Dean was killing off children in Winton\u2014she was the last person to be hanged in New Zealand for murder\u2014we immediately passed child protection legislation and then the Child Welfare Act. That Act stood until the 1970s. We have had a long experience of protecting children and promoting them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EHow is it that in the 21st century our performance is so bad? Why have we not been more successful in protecting our most vulnerable? It is not as if we have not had many policies. We have had policies for Africa. We have had new ideas for Africa. We have had new reports for Africa. We have had new programmes being developed, all the years that I have worked in this particular field, and yet they end up in this place. When reading this particular bill, I have been looking to see what is missing, and throughout the select committee process I hope we as a committee will look at that. I do not think grand plans will achieve the goals that the Minister has set, and we accept that our children should not be placed in a vulnerable position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThere are a number of things missing, and we should confront those. We should try to seek explanations about what is missing from the proposals so that we can make the proposals more comprehensive. My colleague Jacinda Ardern referred to a number of these. The time has come for us to look sincerely at the needs of our children, particularly our most vulnerable, as comprehensively as possible from the perspective of what impacts on their development. I think sometimes this House takes the idea that this is a comprehensive plan far too readily, without actually interrogating what that means. We have the signs, we have the knowledge, and we have the research to do it and understand it. There are textbooks in libraries full of this information about what provides children with the best start in life and what protects them from vulnerability. Yet much of what we do in our society works against those interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern talked about poverty. You cannot talk about addressing the needs of vulnerable children without addressing that as well. Poor housing, poor health, communities that are suboptimal\u2014all of that\u2014[Interruption] I do not know what the member is interjecting about. If the member would like to listen, and just carry on listening, we might get to it. We are on the same select committee, Mr Sabin, and I think unless we reach a level of understanding of these points, we are going to make the same mistakes again. I say to the member to please listen because we are sincere about the select committee doing this work well, and that information is there. Maybe in that member\u2019s life experiences he has not come across this material. Well, many of us have and we intend to ask the officials to show us where those are. Unless those are addressed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd4b11414c44e7cb846ef61069b3ebb\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: Twelve years as a detective\u2014never saw a thing happening in child abuse!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264271ffd3d8e47c998632b1c0f9bf5f3\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: That is the problem with the member. If this is what carries on, then this is how the select committee will progress. Here, the Minister has very sincerely put her agenda on the table and we are responding to that sincerely, but, Minister, if that is the kind of response your colleagues will give us, then I think the member might need to speak to you to say how you intend this to progress, because we intend it to progress well. So the total environment, I say to Mr Sabin, also needs examination, and unless we do that, we will not have it. We can all talk about those things inside the home that make for a good place to develop children. But if the community in which they live is toxic, if the policies that inform that are toxic, and if our whole perspective on what happens to that subset of society is toxic and negative, then nothing will happen. Mr Sabin, that is precisely the environment from which many of these vulnerable children come. So I ask the member to just contemplate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWe are not here looking for short-term gains. We are not looking for something to suit our particular ideological agendas. We are looking for some real change. Members of the select committee ought to look at that in some detail. I ask, then: is the package that we see here likely to make a real difference? Have we examined the programmes that we have introduced over the years comprehensively enough to see what it was about them that we missed? There was a time that this Parliament debated proposals just like this and passed policies and laws that were designed to address these issues, and yet we come back and we have to redo them again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWe all know a lot about vulnerable children. Early identification is not the problem. In many, many environments those children who are vulnerable are identified sometimes 1 week after they are born, sometimes 1 week after they enter early childhood education, or sometimes 1 week after they enter primary school. Yet many of those children end up on the negative side of the effects of that vulnerability. A lot of professionals see this. Why is it, then, that even when we identify those children, even when we refer them somewhere, in many, many cases they end up being vulnerable? Well, there is something missing in this, and the bit that is missing is the question of the people who are actually working in these vulnerable environments, and how they are trained. What is their expertise? In order to do that, it actually requires a lot of expertise. That is a piece that is missing out of the considerations here. Even after you identify vulnerable children, the work to get them to the point where they receive the services that they need, where they make the personal changes that they need, and where their families are just as they need to be is a very, very expert set of activities, yet the profession largely charged to do that is social work and the allied professions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EBut we do not have minimum standards for their training. We do not have compulsory registration for them. We do not have workforce planning and development. We do not know how many we need. Many, many courses around the country have great standards and very poor standards. There are 2-year programmes and 4-year programmes. There are postgraduate programmes and certificate programmes. And yet somehow these professionals are entitled to enter into the lives of these vulnerable children in the hope of making some difference. So writing a coordinated policy amongst Government agencies is easy, but actually making sure that those vulnerable children are serviced by competent people who will make a change is harder. This will flounder again unless we have the right people working with that. Mandatory registration of social workers is important so that we can guarantee to the vulnerable that those who will come to work with you will be competent, whether they are in the statutory agencies or the voluntary agencies. We want to say to social work educators that it is time they understood well what is demanded of the profession and they should be resourced and positioned to deliver to us the social workers we need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe final point is that we need to know that we are producing sufficient numbers of them so that we have a workforce pipeline. In this area, for as long as I can remember, there has been nothing there. The Social Workers Registration Board has come up with a very well written report saying that social worker registration should now be compulsory. I think it is that missing link that has to be tied into this programme. We certainly will be asking officials to tell us what those figures are. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00229d5a25015a964cc3a8d950aec78c9d85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d5a25015a964cc3a8d950aec78c9d85\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. The Green Party will be supporting the Vulnerable Children Bill to the Social Services Committee. We look forward to hearing from the experts and those with experience of these systems to guide us in our future vote. I would like to acknowledge the Minister for Social Development and the commitment that she has put in in terms of focusing on children in the work that she has done, and acknowledge that this bill comes out of a good place, and we can see that. I also acknowledge you, Minister, for the time that you have taken to brief us on this bill. With that said, probably quite a bit of the content of my speech will now be raising concerns and issues that we will be wanting to look at in the select committee inquiry. I guess that is about good democratic process, and about working together on these things in the future, I hope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe certainly also have children at the heart of our concern and recognise that 152,000 notifications every year are a sign of a real, deep problem in this country. A third of those are dealt with by Child, Youth and Family, and 22,000 are substantiated through that process. I am sure that for all of us when we think about that, we can have media stories that come to our minds or stories of people we know and the pictures and the faces of those children, and we know where today, in this process, we are talking about their lives and their ability to be safe and grow into the people whom they would want to be. So it is incredibly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI am compelled to point out that of the abuse in New Zealand, 70 percent\u2014and this has been pointed out by Child Matters and also in a different context by the police\u2014of the abuse of children happens within the context of domestic violence. We will be looking and asking questions throughout the process to see whether those connections will work, whether they are transparent, and whether this system will respond to the reality of domestic violence and the tragic role that it plays in the abuse of children. For us at the moment it is not clear whether it will. In fact, all too often we are hearing through people\u2019s experiences of Child, Youth and Family that in fact it is often working in the counter. So we will be definitely looking towards that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EImproving the vulnerability of our children means measures that are aimed at protection from abuse and neglect; improving children\u2019s physical, mental, cultural, and emotional well-being; improving their education; strengthening their connections to families, wh\u0101nau, iwi, or other culturally recognised groups; increasing their participation in decision making in society; and improving their social and economic well-being. It is a big job if we are going to fix this. I think it is really important, and I notice that the Minister has acknowledged that this bill is a small part of that work, and that the Children\u2019s Action Plan actually takes up an even bigger part of the Government\u2019s agenda for this work. For us we need to be able to see those connections to be able to see how it is going to work. If we can see that the systems are being put in place and those systems need improving, then we have to see that they are improving. Otherwise we are sending people into, and fixing in, systems that currently are, we could say, re-abusing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe also have a concern that the model suggested by this bill, as it is at the moment, does not look at the wider environmental impacts on children. Focusing on the individual and the State\u2019s response to abuse potentially might undermine the well-being of children. We clearly need all of our Government policies to put children at the heart of them. Previously there have been several bills this year that have come before the House where there has been a refusal to put those clauses in. So that does create a sense of discomfort for us around that ability for the Government to actually really enact that across the board, which is necessary for ensuring children\u2019s safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E We also need to resource families and make it as easy as possible for them to get help when they are struggling. At the moment, part of the result of the level of inequality in New Zealand is the distancing from the mainstream of people with the least, and that has an impact in terms of people being able to get help and to create strength in their family when they are struggling. We also need to ensure that those helping systems we have are as robust as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EJust last week the former Commissioner of Police Howard Broad released his review of the Child, Youth and Family complaints system. He raised a number of concerns, and for us that is really critical in terms of looking at this whole process. If we are going to be increasing referrals to Child, Youth and Family and we are going to be setting up a cross-departmental group with that at the heart of it, we need to know that that system is working, and sadly at the moment there are a lot of concerns. In his report he noted that each child in State care is currently supposed to be visited by a responsible social worker on an 8-week rotation, but doubts around compliance with that were raised because of the high levels of caseloads for social workers. Although this is a really significant part of the defensive screen for child protection provided by the State at the moment, even that is not happening at the moment. We are concerned about putting a whole lot more work into the system when the absolute fundamentals are not working\u2014the children in State care have not got those protections working for them at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe are also a bit worried that at the moment a lot of the information that is coming into Child, Youth and Family in terms of the complaints and concerns is staying on the database as evidence, which is locking in what turns out to be incorrect information. That needs to be sorted out as well. If we are particularly going to be making decisions around people\u2019s suitability to be parents that are not based on court rulings, we need to make sure that the information in the system is accurate. Concern around the evidence in court decisions was raised by former commissioner Howard Broad, as well. At the moment those decisions are relying on social workers\u2019 judgment and on the facts that they are bringing to the court. Currently, I think they suggested that the process suffers from predeterminable bias because of the reliance on that information and perhaps a lack of consistency from social workers across the board. So if we are going to be putting these systems in place, we need to make sure that the evidentiary processes are solid and that the ability for the system to cope is sound, because our children\u2019s lives depend on it, and at the moment we are worried and we are going to be looking to make sure that that is in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also just want to bring some people\u2019s stories into this and recognise that we have a particular concern around the child harm protection order. I noted that the Minister of Justice spoke very passionately before about the importance of this, particularly in relation to where there has not been a conviction, and I cannot help but respond now on the basis of that Minister\u2019s refusal to pick up the recommendations of the alternative pre-trial and trial hearings systems, which mean that our justice system convicts only one in 100 sexual offenders. There was huge agreement right across sectors on significant aspects of that Law Commission work, which could have improved that conviction rate. If we are talking about keeping children safe, then we need to have a justice system that will deliver justice to those children before we remove anybody\u2019s rights. This seems to be just saying: \u201CWell, the system does not deliver justice, so we will work around that.\u201D, rather than fixing the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022506abdd890d34f6fbc9f4919bb9562ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022506abdd890d34f6fbc9f4919bb9562ac\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Ahn nyung ha se yo. It is a great pleasure to rise to speak in the first reading of the Vulnerable Children Bill. The whole aim of the bill is to protect and improve the well-being of vulnerable children here in New Zealand, especially in the area of reducing the number of assaults on our children. Too many of our children in New Zealand are seriously abused and neglected. In many cases of extreme abuse many people had a range of knowledge, or some knowledge, but no one in particular had pieced the whole together, and hence the help was not actually available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis National-led Government is taking action to protect our children. New Zealanders asked us to do that, and we are taking action and delivering on our promise. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister for Social Development, who has done a great deal of work through the green paper consultation as well as the white paper consultation, right throughout New Zealand. I have actually witnessed her speaking at many, many public events. I congratulate her on the development of this bill and on bringing it to the House. I will welcome the submissions from the public, and I look forward to the robust debate that will happen at the Social Services Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESitting here listening to members from right across the House and seeing their passion, I see that we are all focused on our children, and I am very glad to see that. I was sitting here looking at the plaques on our walls and remembering that our forebears fought for this country to make sure that New Zealand was left in a better condition, was in better hands, and was better developed for the future of our children. When I hear that more than 50 children have died in the last 5 years in this country\u2014and the Minister of Justice actually quoted this\u2014and that two children are hospitalised every 5 days, I wonder what our forebears would think about where New Zealand is right now in terms of the way we treat our children. Our children are the most vulnerable people, and yet there are people in this country who maim, kill, and hurt innocent children who cannot even respond to that kind of abuse. They cannot even say who hurt them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis bill will result in two new Acts: the Vulnerable Children Act and the Child Harm Prevention Orders Act. It also amends the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989 and the KiwiSaver Act 2006. This bill is about reinforcing the need for shared responsibility and about taking coordinated and collaborative action across the Government\u2019s social services sector to better protect vulnerable children and to help ensure that our children are safe with those who work with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWhen children come into contact with people who have bad things in their heads in terms of the outcomes for those children, we have the responsibility to stop those people, to protect our children, and to make sure that those children have a future\u2014the future that we all come in here as members of Parliament to provide for this country. We committed to halt the rise in the number of children who are physically abused, and to reduce the current number, 5 percent, by 2017 as part of our Better Public Services target. We are absolutely\u2014absolutely\u2014committed to this goal and we are determined to build a safer environment for all vulnerable children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI am very glad that members right across the House are in support of this bill. I know that members have talked about the issues of poverty, and some members have talked about how poverty actually affects the outcomes for children. I echo the Minister of Justice\u2019s comment: poverty is no excuse for the abuse of our children. This Government has actually spent a lot of money to try to better the outcomes for people who are poor, so that we can actually assist them in providing better conditions for their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOver the past 4\u00BD years 215,000 families have been able to access Government grants to insulate their homes so that their houses are not cold, and so that children do not end up with rheumatic fever, colds, and flu. We are on track to finish insulating every State house that is capable of being insulated by the end of this year. We are also providing more places in early childhood education for the children who need it the most, and we are especially targeting funding to ensure that vulnerable children are enrolled in early childhood education. It is, in fact, vulnerable children who do not end up in early childhood education, and we want to make sure that they are in early childhood education. We have put money into that and we are making sure of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWe have also improved immunisation rates for children. Often people say that poor people cannot afford immunisation. Well, we are providing it. Under National 93 percent of 2-year-olds are fully immunised, and that is a great result to boast about, I believe. Doctors visits, at any time of the day or night, are free for all under-sixes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E The Government has funded 149 extra social workers in low-decile schools, and an additional 96 social workers have been added to the Child, Youth and Family front line. We also know that the effects of the global recession were hardest on those with the lowest income, so we took action to soften the sharpest edges of the recession. We did that by protecting Working for Families payments and increasing them this year, by legislating consumer price index increases to benefit levels, by lowering income tax rates across the board, by raising the minimum wage every year since we have been in Government, by overseeing the slowest rate of increase to the cost of living in 12 years, and by increasing wage rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThere is a lot more that we can actually do, and that is why we have this legislation in the House today. We are working on a care strategy for children in State care. We have the Child Protect line and the Vulnerable Kids Information System, and we are increasing the pool of iwi caregivers. Anybody who works in Government with children will be screened and vetted, and I welcome that. This measure will affect around 376,000 workers, and I am sure that some of them will think that that is very cumbersome. I am sure that some will even complain that they should not be vetted at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAnyone with a serious conviction will be permanently restricted from working closely with children. We will introduce child harm prevention orders, which can be placed on adults who pose a serious risk to children to prevent them from ever interacting with children. We are getting tough on people who abuse children. Where abusive parents go on to have further children, they will have to prove that they are fit parents. I know that that can be quite controversial in some sectors, but we must protect our children, because often those children who have been hurt, abused, and even killed have been abused, neglected, and killed by those people who are closest to them\u2014often their families\u2014and we must do everything we can to protect our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think that this is a fantastic bill that the Minister for Social Development has brought to the House. I look forward to the select committee process, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022 data-id=\u002259439a3f822b43a4a69a2306d94203f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259439a3f822b43a4a69a2306d94203f8\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, greetings, and t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I rise to speak to the first reading of the Vulnerable Children Bill on behalf of New Zealand First. When the lives and the rights of children are at stake, there must be no silent witnesses. There must be no silent witnesses. It is our duty as politicians, decision makers, policy makers, and legislation makers to ensure that the most vulnerable are protected against harm and from those who inflict it. I commend the Minister for Social Development for the efforts that you have put through in this bill. Unfortunately, it so happens that in our New Zealand society, the term \u201Cvulnerable\u201D is too often associated with our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe bill has a number of objectives to be commended, as it aims to, No. 1, reinforce the need for shared responsibility and coordinated and collaborative action across the Government\u2019s social service sector to better protect vulnerable children. This collaborative effort will see the police, justice, the Minister of Health, the Minister of Education, the Minister for Social Development, and the chief executive officers be held accountable for protecting and improving the lives of vulnerable children. I think that is a very good thing. No. 2, it will help ensure children are safe with those who work with them. This intends to address the issue of having paedophiles or people with a history of an abusive nature come near vulnerable children who should never be allowed to. No. 3 is to minimise the risk of future harm posed by those who have abused children in the past, and, in doing so, ensure the safety of children from adults who have previously had a child or young person permanently removed from their care due to abuse or neglect, or where the adult has been convicted of murder, manslaughter, or infanticide of a child in his or her care. There have been many cases in recent months in this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to enhance the response to children who have already been abused or neglected. Given the recently released, devastating records of children being re-abused in the care of Child, Youth and Family, one would expect a thorough process this time. Although this Government\u2019s response to these issues is positive, we cannot forget that it is a delayed response\u2014a delayed response warranted by recent cases, often resulting in the fatalities of many New Zealand children. It is unfortunate that the victims in these cases did not have a reasonable response of preventable measures set out at the time to protect them from such devastating harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First was fully aware of this issue. That is why a bill was developed and submitted, which was pulled out of the members\u2019 ballot on 6 December last year. It should therefore be mentioned that the New Zealand First bill in my name, the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill, is the first step towards protecting our vulnerable children in New Zealand. It is rather odd that the Vulnerable Children Bill has been swiftly drafted for its first reading in the House when the New Zealand First bill has been waiting for its first reading for many months now. The Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill was formulated some time before today\u2019s bill to address the very issues that this Vulnerable Children Bill intends to remedy and more. Furthermore, my bill also aims to properly address the way in which New Zealand deals with criminals who continue to ignore the rights of our children to safe and secure environments, as well as contain deterrents to prevent future criminal activity from occurring. It is for these reasons that I sincerely hope that the Government will support our bill when the time comes for its first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThere are key changes within the Vulnerable Children Bill. It will dramatically alter the judicial system as we see it today. There will be two principal Acts. One is the Vulnerable Children Act and the second is the Child Harm Prevention Orders Act. It is important that the bill has exhausted all evidence to suggest that the two principal Acts are absolute, justified, and provide no room for error. Key changes in this bill include a number of areas. First of all, it requires chief executives to work together to produce and report on the Vulnerable Children\u2019s Plan. New Zealand First supports a cross-agency approach. We recognise the need to have a better-coordinated and collaborative system put in place to address issues concerned with vulnerable children. We also recognise the importance of accountability placed on these agencies in achieving results for vulnerable children. However, what we need to see is a transparent plan that sets out how these performance targets will be demonstrated and evaluated. I sincerely hope that the Minister could give that some consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ERecently, the Minister announced that the first two Children\u2019s Teams had been established in Rotorua and Whangarei. The design of these two teams is driven by the communities they serve. With two demonstration sites in place, it is important to see the differences these teams will make in assisting vulnerable children in New Zealand. A Vulnerable Children\u2019s Board is already established, so what accountability measures are in place for this board? Is there a risk of shifting the blame from one agency to another? These are some of the questions we want to ask, from the teams to the board: who at the end will be accountable, and where is the transparent plan to show how this structure will succeed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to have State services put in place policies containing provisions for the identification and reporting of child abuse and neglect. Although New Zealand First finds this an integral part of the reporting system, we are yet to see what the provisions will be and whether enough focus has been placed on making sure that staff of State services are adequately trained to recognise abuse when it occurs. We do not want to run the risk of false accusations or neglecting to see when abuse is occurring. It is important that the code of practice for working with children, which is being developed for professionals working with children, is one that will appropriately provide guidelines for professionals. It is also vital that training is provided in conjunction with the code. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ENo. 3 is new safety standard checks for employers in the Government and Government-funded children\u2019s workforce. This means that over 370,000 employees would be screened and vetted. In addition, there will be the implementation of a permanent restriction on people with serious convictions being able to work closely with children. New Zealand First recognises the importance of having in place these appropriate safety measures when it comes to protecting children. At an estimated cost of $200,000 every 3 years, there will be no argument against the reduction of child abuse in our society. There is no doubt that early and appropriate intervention is crucial in preventing the abuse of children. The restrictions suggest the immediate dismissal of employees found to have serious convictions from working in roles in the core children\u2019s workforce. We would query, though, whether this is to be extended to those suspected of untoward actions against children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThere are many areas in this bill that we would like the select committee to consider. This is probably one of the reasons why New Zealand First will only support this bill going to the select committee at this time, because we do have a number of concerns that we hope the select committee will consider, and we hope that an opportunity will be provided to the wider public of New Zealand to either submit or comment on the bill, in order for us to be satisfied that the bill will deliver the outcomes that New Zealand First believes New Zealand deserves. The bill comes with really great intentions, Minister\u2014I must reiterate that. I do believe that we are on the right track. You know, it is a step in the right direction of addressing this very serious and very important issue in our country. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022db360a740ffc4b15b560ccbb5bf23bf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db360a740ffc4b15b560ccbb5bf23bf4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I too rise and congratulate the Minister for Social Development, Paula Bennett, on bringing the Vulnerable Children Bill to the House and, of course, on the considerable amount of work that has gone on behind the scenes, but also publicly, in putting this together. There is nothing like talking to, and hearing from, those on the front line, both in Government departments and those who work in the NGO sector and also privately. I know too that the Minister has spent a lot of time talking to families who have been on the receiving end of tragic news, and also families who want to help out, particularly those who want to adopt or take children into their homes at a level perhaps below adoption but caring for them just as intensely and proactively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a series of measures that the National Government is putting together to provide wraparound care for those in this country who are not cared for. Too many New Zealand children are abused and put in difficult, stressful, and physically harmful circumstances. I would like to take the time to repeat some statistics that have been put about publicly. First of all, more than 50 children have died in the last 5 years because of extreme abuse. You cannot get more extreme than death. Because of abuse, a child under 2 is hospitalised every 5 days\u2014an extraordinary statistic. Every year Child, Youth and Family substantiates 22,000 cases of physical, sexual, or emotional abuse and neglect. Those are not just reported cases; they are substantiated cases. That is something that, clearly, this House has given a lot of thought to, given the fact that there is considerable cross-party support for this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn terms of the main provisions of the bill, I think the one that is highlighted for me is requiring chief executives from across Government departments and agencies to work together to put together a plan that addresses the whole issue of vulnerable children and children who could be exposed to abuse. But not just putting together a plan; those chief executives are held to account on exactly how that plan is progressing and what results they are getting. That is so important so that changes can be made\u2014tweaks\u2014or, if required, they can stop doing something and replace it with something else more successful. The bill will require the ministries of social development, education, health, and justice and the police to have policies in place as a ministry, across the country, to ensure that child abuse is reported, is identified, and is acted upon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI find that particularly interesting because to some it might seem like a Wellington approach, with chief executives settled here in Wellington and ministries based here in Wellington, but, in fact, this will affect those front-line staff out in the regions. Although we have this bill underpinning the Children\u2019s Action Plan at a ministerial level, at a chief executive level and a ministry level the reality is that we have examples in Rotorua at the moment and in Whangarei where, in the regions, staff on the front line are working together\u2014the front line for Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, for the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, for district health boards, for the police, for education departments, and, of course, for the local courts. We are seeing in Rotorua and Whangarei a coming together of minds and strategies in making sure that information is shared and that child abuse is brought to a head, is reported, and is acted on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI gladly commend this piece of legislation to the House. I support it and look forward to the select committee process, where we can hear from those on the front line and can add to it and make it even better. May I congratulate the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002296adf054053a4c4ab5205356d4fd4ad4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296adf054053a4c4ab5205356d4fd4ad4\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on the Vulnerable Children Bill. I want to begin by acknowledging the work of the Minister for Social Development and by saying that no one doubts or challenges the motives or objects that sit behind this bill. There is no question that we in New Zealand have a serious problem when it comes to the safety, well-being, and health of our children. Both the Minister for Social Development and the Minister of Justice have spoken on this bill, and they are entitled to be supported in improving the protection and standing of children in New Zealand today. Some would say it is overdue, and I agree with that sentiment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is easy to pass off violence to children as sickness, stress, or some other sort of cause, but the reality is that the youngest children in our country\u2014our most vulnerable\u2014are being beaten up, killed, and savaged at the hands of adults, and that is never acceptable. The track record we have in New Zealand is a bad one, and it is time to do something about it. So I acknowledge the work that the Minister has done, and the consultation that has taken place, to arrive at a set of measures that have as their intention and their objective the protection of children. Nothing less will do or is acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut I want to sound a note of caution. This House is faced with a lot of legislation now that has as its purpose the restriction of others\u2019 freedom in the name of public safety. We have this bill, we have the next such bill on the Order Paper, and we have legislation like the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill. They are all well intended, all well meaning, but we are being asked to legislate for processes that limit freedom, stigmatise, and have the power to be seen as punishment. Even though the explanatory note of the bill says that no punishment is intended with the civil orders that the bill provides for, the reality is that they do punish because they restrict access not only to children but to family events and other things as well. When we are faced with that legislation, then we in this House are obliged to proceed with caution\u2014and that is not about protecting the abusers, the damagers, the hitters, and the smashers. It is not about protecting the violent and sadistic. It is about protecting the innocent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E We do not protect the vulnerable by convicting and shaming the innocent. There will be obvious targets of the measures in this bill\u2014the child harm prevention orders\u2014but as we lower the thresholds that justify the granting of these orders, then others come into the frame and others have to defend themselves. As we lower those thresholds, we raise the risk of injustice, because the reality is that our courts are not perfect and they do get things wrong. Well-meaning but zealous social workers, Government officials, and the chief executives of the departments who can apply for these orders can get things wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere are difficult and awkward people in our communities\u2014some would describe them as misfits\u2014who fit a set of prejudices and stereotypes but who are not child abusers. They might be the victims of misunderstanding and misapprehension and become the target of applications such as these. When, as clause 48 provides, an application can be based not only on past convictions but on the applicant\u2019s belief\u2014that is, one of the qualifying chief executives\u2014on reasonable grounds, that a respondent has committed a qualifying offence, we are going into territory that might suit the civil jurisdiction but might actually be more related to what is criminal. That is when the alarm bells should go off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat is not a reason to oppose the bill\u2014certainly at this stage\u2014but it is a reason to be alert to the potential for getting it wrong and to ask whether the safeguards we have built up over many years to protect the innocent are being afforded their proper place in this legislation. Let the criminal justice system do its part, punishing offenders and those who do wrong, those who beat up and smash our children\u2014let them be dealt with in that sort of way. Let us protect children from those with a track record of offending. Let us have meaningful measures to deal with those who may not have been convicted but about whom there is evidence that they are unsafe around children. But the obligation on this House\u2014and I say this in light of the speech by the Minister of Justice\u2014is to rise above the emotional outrage that is easy to bring to bear on an issue such as this, the emotional outrage that is easy to bring to bear on the extreme cases that we know about, normally when there is a conviction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe must keep our focus on the objects of this bill and remember our obligation to all citizens, including those who might be described as misfits, the awkward, the personality disordered, and the slightly socially maladjusted who will not be child abusers but who can easily win that allegation and that sobriquet. I simply sound that note of caution. When we come to examine this bill, let us make sure that the object of the bill is to protect the most vulnerable in our community\u2014actually, I think the Minister is right; those to whom this House ought to give absolute priority when it comes to protection\u2014but let us in this House also make sure that we do not subject innocent citizens to unnecessary shame and ridicule and the expense of a process for which there is no justification to submit them to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to make the point\u2014because we sometimes find it uncomfortable to talk about social morality in this House\u2014that we do live in a permissive society. We do have young people who are exposed to the demands of adulthood, whether it is choices about alcohol, drugs, and sex, at an early age, and at an earlier age than perhaps was the case 30, 40, or 50 years ago. We do have in our prisons and in our youth centres teenage boys who have committed sexual offences not because they are child abusers but because they have taken risks and made decisions, usually under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and committed what are sexual crimes against under-age girls or young women. They are not boys or young men who are predestined to a life of criminal offending; they have just done dumb things, made wrong choices, or taken silly risks. In our quest to protect, as we should, children and the most vulnerable, we have to make sure that this bill does not consign those people to a life where they cannot have their own families and lead a family life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is important when we consider these important issues, and issues of legislation that do encroach on rights and freedoms, that we proceed with our eyes open, that we proceed with caution, and that we proceed on the basis that we understand the limitations and the restrictions that we are imposing and placing on people. We recognise that there is that tension. We recognise what the paramount objective is. We recognise our responsibility to all citizens. On that basis there is no question that we support the objects of the bill, and we look forward to good and effective scrutiny of those important measures when it goes before the Social Services Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00225aeeeefdb87b4a788ba954280dfac4eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225aeeeefdb87b4a788ba954280dfac4eb\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just taken his seat, Andrew Little, has raised some issues of concern, and we would agree that when we look at the Vulnerable Children Bill we need to be mindful of that. But I rise to take a call, and I want to actually state that this is more than just legislation. The reason I say that is that in 2011 when the Minister for Social Development undertook to consult with the New Zealand public, this is what she said in her ministerial foreword: \u201CWelcome to the single most important debate this country can have. It\u2019s about New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable children; about how we care for and protect them, the trade-offs and sacrifices we\u2019re prepared to make, and the opportunities we want them to have. It\u2019s about how we ensure every child thrives, belongs and achieves.\u201D I want to state that because we can look at this as just one part of the legislation in which we are participating and wanting to pass through into the select committee work that we will have, but I think we could miss the point. Those New Zealanders who are out there need to hear that this is a vision statement that has been set by this Government, in particular, by the Minister. Hence the reason it has the support of the majority of the parties that are here\u2014because all of us would agree that this is an important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI think it is important that that vision statement, in the consultation document that went out, set out four key planks that I think are really important. What is important is that the process is equal to the end result. The integrity of a process is equal to its process in ensuring that what has been heard by the public is followed through with the recommendations. So here are the four key planks of the consultation document from July 2011 to 2012. It stated that in addressing the issues of vulnerable children, it is about shared responsibilities. In other words, it is not just about Government; it is about parents and caregivers. It is about the services that are in our communities and ensuring that they deliver the best possible services. It is about showing leadership. As a Government we show leadership by having a Children\u2019s Action Plan. So from the consultation document, which is a green paper, to the white paper, here is the leadership that this Government is making. It is about legislation changes. So we are here today in the first reading of the Vulnerable Children Bill to discuss the legislation changes, but I do not want people to miss the overall vision under which we are trying to address the issues that are affecting our children who are vulnerable. It is also about working with wh\u0101nau, with hap\u016B, with iwi, and with our M\u0101ori leaders as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThere are two other things that are important. The plan talks about child-centred policy\u2014in other words, it is about reviewing the Government\u2019s spend and allocation. And, lastly, it is talking about child-centred practice\u2014in other words, what are the best practices that are delivered to improve the conditions of children. Here is where it becomes really important. What the Government is saying and what the Minister is saying, in particular, is this: we cannot expect changes in our communities, in the services we deliver to them and also to our families and our vulnerable children, unless we as a Government department are willing to change ourselves. In other words, the changes also need to come from the inside out. It is a whole-of-system approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI finally want to respond to and just acknowledge Jacinda Ardern and Mr Prasad, when they talked about needing to take a broader perspective. I look forward to our Social Services Committee, where we can talk about a number of the measures in which we as a Government are addressing that. I want to just finish off by saying this. It is one thing to talk about the outputs. We can talk about the investment and the spend that we are making. We can talk about some of the shifts and changes we are making. We can tick them off as outputs. But what will really be telling\u2014what truly will make the difference\u2014are the transformational outcomes, and I think we are going to see those. What we are going to see, and we look forward to the debate, is where we sit down, we see the investment that we have made, we see the whole-of-system change that is taking place, but, most important, we ask whether we can track it according to the narrative of change\u2014transformational change\u2014that is happening in the whole system all the way down to our vulnerable children as well. That is what I look forward to. I know that New Zealanders are looking forward to the debate. We look forward to the submissions and also to the opportunity in the select committee. I really look forward to more than just this legislation; I look forward to the ongoing vision that this Minister has for our vulnerable children and our families in Aotearoa. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00228ec457572ac247c8b6aed9738fd30a03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ec457572ac247c8b6aed9738fd30a03\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Twyford; 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a831c78c064ea9a3cf3305b357696f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a831c78c064ea9a3cf3305b357696f\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I want to note the very serious tone and genuine spirit of collaboration that I have observed in this debate, and what seems to be a commitment across the House to really look for solutions and to try to find agreement. I have got no doubt that at the Social Services Committee there will be an earnest effort to test the provisions in the Vulnerable Children Bill, to improve them where possible, and to give the bill serious scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to devote my time\u2014rather than rehearse the provisions in the bill and the things that colleagues have already covered\u2014to addressing some comments to Part 1 in the bill, \u201CCross-agency measures\u201D, and, in particular, clause 6. This is one of the core provisions in the bill. It is about establishing the Government\u2019s priorities for improving the well-being of vulnerable children and ensuring that children\u2019s agencies work together to improve the well-being of vulnerable children. The House can see that in clause 6 there is a list of measures aimed at this purpose, including protecting children from abuse and neglect, improving education and training, increasing participation in decision making about them, and so on, and then, finally, in that list of things, improving their social and economic well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe question I have is whether or not that final item\u2014in the shopping list of measures there that could shape the Government\u2019s priorities under this part of the bill\u2014is there simply as a token gesture, and whether it is there as a kind of an afterthought. I ask that question because when the Minister of Justice spoke, she devoted most of her contribution to trying to rubbish the straw man\u2014that somehow, she said, members on this side of the House were suggesting that poverty should be some kind of excuse for child abuse. That was the main rhetorical flourish of Judith Collins\u2019 speech. A number of other members on the National benches have continued in the same vein, including Melissa Lee and Alfred Ngaro. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe first thing I want to say is that no one on this side of the House thinks that poverty is an excuse for child abuse\u2014no one does. I have never heard anyone say that, and certainly not in this debate. That is a total straw man. The reason that I want to focus on it is that it is very revealing about the National mind-set on issues of poverty, welfare, and social development, including child abuse and vulnerable children. It is very revealing about the National mind-set that this is such a big issue for them. Although poverty is not an excuse for the abuse of children, members on that side of the House must recognise that there is an overwhelming correlation between crime and poverty, and that the perpetrators and the victims of crime in this country and in any other country that I have ever come across are drawn from the poorest and the most disadvantaged members of our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is not just poverty; it is inequality as well. The comparative data on inequality is very, very clear. The social determinants of ill health also apply to mental health, imprisonment, teenage pregnancy, violent crime, and the abuse of children. Is it some kind of coincidence that we are a gold medallist nation when it comes to abusing our children and we are one of the most unequal societies in the Western World? This is why National members have no intention of ever tackling the root causes of the vulnerability of children. They are locked into a mind-set that cannot contemplate the more challenging task of actually addressing the inequality and poverty that is such a hallmark of New Zealand society. It is social factors that cause people to brutalise and neglect their children. It is not an excuse, it does not let individuals off the hook, and, as far as I am concerned, you can throw the book at them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI totally support the intention in this bill to improve procedures and regulations, but, as my colleague Jacinda Ardern outlined, this will always be a partial and selective approach unless the Government is willing to contemplate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3f865edee52479fbf6c59c892bbdb88\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u00224424e3e04f52493cad95d8e6fcdc650f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224424e3e04f52493cad95d8e6fcdc650f\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I am pleased to follow the previous speaker, Phil Twyford, and I applaud his courage in naming that issue. I think it is important that we talk about the whole issue of vulnerable children in a holistic way. The Green Party is supporting the Vulnerable Children Bill to the Social Services Committee because we want the debate, and we do appreciate the Minister for Social Development coming and giving us a good briefing on the issues. That gave us an opportunity to have a dialogue and to raise with the Minister some of the concerns that we do have, and there are some specific issues that I will cover. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EAbove and beyond all that, the question that is raised for me is why we are so violent as a society. Why, when Sue Bradford put up the section 59 legislation\u2014which most parliamentarians supported\u2014were there death threats, howls of violence, and parents writing to us saying \u201CThese children are our property, and we have the right to beat them or hit them if we want to.\u201D? That was depressing and revealing at the same time, but what it tells me is that violence is not just restricted to the 25 or so dreadful individuals a year who commit murder against children but also permeates our society. As a society, we do not have a respectful attitude towards children. It was horrific to see the death threats about children as property that came out in the section 59 debate. Children are not our property, and until we change not only the behaviour of offenders and potential offenders but the consciousness of a whole society towards the real value of children and their mothers, who are also often subjected to the same violence, no bill\u2014no matter how well intentioned, and this one is\u2014will change that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe have got a lot of work to do. I do not think this House is a big part of the problem. I think we are willing to try to find solutions\u2014some of us, most of us\u2014but we do have to acknowledge the complex matrix that has led us to being one of the most violent societies in the world. Violence cannot be solved through violence, so we need to take a hard look at what this is all about. There are no excuses for violence against anyone, let alone children. There are reasons why it has become a pandemic in our society, and those are the tough issues that we absolutely have to face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESo I draw my attention back to the bill. We do think that the relationship between child abuse and domestic violence cannot be separated. One of the reasons we are still concerned about what this bill misses is the economic vulnerability of women in violent relationships. The DPB was created so that women and children could be safe. In other laws in this Parliament, where the welfare system has become based on sanctions, women do not have the same opportunity to escape violent relationships if they are going to be taken into even greater poverty. The problem that these women and these children face is that we need holistic and consistent support for women and children, so that violence is not their only reality, and that they have genuine and real options. This bill addresses a number of specific situations but does not take on that really tough issue\u2014where do these women and children go? Will they just go underground now, because otherwise they will be in trouble? Potentially, mothers could lose their children, and Child, Youth and Family could become more bureaucratic. So we want these issues addressed at the select committee. We appreciate the effort that is being made by all sides of the House to address these issues, but we are really concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe applaud the idea of cross-department cooperation, but we do not want it to lead to more bureaucracy, more reporting, and more statistics when what we need is not a top-down but a bottom-up change of consciousness towards this, as well. I am interested in what the relationship is between Wh\u0101nau Ora and this bill. What is the relationship between what the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora, Tariana Turia, said, which was that the Child, Youth and Family system can never work for our families\u2014she wanted to try something new\u2014and how that relates to this bill? I want to see that. Wh\u0101nau Ora was trying to heal wh\u0101nau through self-determination, versus the idea that bureaucracies and Government departments with more powers will solve this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI think that the member Rajen Prasad made a very good analysis of the challenge of social workers who are not always skilled\u2014and as someone who has tutored social workers, I know what he is talking about\u2014in terms of dealing with the complexity of issues that they are confronted with. So we do have concerns about a number of things. We have concerns about the child harm prevention orders, in terms of monitoring and spouse manipulation, and also this issue of the balance of probabilities. We think that people need escape paths from violence. We did try to talk to the Minister about what has happened to the Ministry of Social Development and the law, the Social Security Act, around women and options to escape from violence. We do think those issues are intimately connected with child abuse and domestic violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe do believe that when women and children are at the heart of not only social welfare legislation but also economic legislation, then we will see change in this country. When women and children are the basis for the decision making around bills to do with the economy rather than being sidelined into social welfare, we may see change. At the moment, we are supporting the bill. We will continue to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3989511109547e3b82d7e4fbaffee46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3989511109547e3b82d7e4fbaffee46\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take the last call on the Vulnerable Children Bill. I also want to join in commending the Minister for Social Development not only for this bill but also for the work that she has done right through the green paper and white paper process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI want to cover off just a few points, because most of it has already been traversed. This has been an issue where the can has been kicked down the road year upon year for many, many years. I remember the inquiry into James Whakaruru back in 1999, the abhorrence that New Zealanders expressed at that stage, and the conversations that have gone on since. The conversations have amounted to a whole lot of hui and not much do-ey, as far as I am concerned. While that has been happening, over 50 children a year have been dying, often at the hands of those whom they most rely on for their existence and protection: their caregivers and their parents. What I saw in the Minister\u2019s efforts to actually make a substantial action-focused approach to this was the fact that she went out to the grassroots and she developed bottom-up ownership of this issue. Out there in the community, not here in the halls of Parliament, people actually know what is going on and they know where the deficits are. They know the cracks through which these children are falling, notwithstanding the fact that so many agencies are often involved in the cases of children who are most often abused and who end up dying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWe have heard the argument raised, and I commend the fact that all members across this House believe that we need to come together and put the politics to one side to resolve the issues, but I will not stand here and accept it when members turn this conversation into one about what they say is \u201Cpoverty\u201D. There are many, many families in this country who are in challenging financial situations for a variety of reasons and who do not beat their children and do not sexually violate them because of the fact that they may not earn what their neighbour does. The thing that really gets me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122ebe3d5247443c98043fbf42ee3c18\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Try listening, Mike. For once in your life, try listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f72a9b01624140ad34e02db937b890\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and which comes from members like that member over there\u2014is that they will sit there and wax lyrical, as they have for year upon year, as this can has been kicked further down the road, and yet they will oppose every effort that this Government makes to actually do what is most important in ensuring that families have more ability to spend the money. If they raise the argument that it is about poverty, then why vote against every effort to actually grow the economy? If it is about jobs, then why vote against every effort that this Minister and this Social Services Committee have put in place to ensure that the focus for those who do not have work is on getting work and having the skills and the attitude to get into work? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhen I interviewed offenders who had abused, raped, and murdered children, not once did they say to me: \u201COh, well, sir, the reason I have committed this offence is that I am living in poverty.\u201D No, it was because they were living in a situation where they had seen their parents and their parents\u2019 parents doing that. It was because they had lived in an environment where they had no education, no quality, and no prospects for a future\u2014again, efforts in those areas that that party will vote against; our efforts to make sure that the one in five who are not succeeding actually have a chance to succeed\u2014and it was because of substance abuse. I will bet the House that there are plenty of members on that side who are quite happy\u2014in fact, Iain Lees-Galloway is one\u2014to see some more liberal approaches to what we see around drugs and alcohol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThose were the reasons that members opposite raised. Those were the reasons. If the members on that side are genuinely concerned about the children of New Zealand, then they should stop voting against bills that are about ensuring that the economy grows, and stop voting against bills that are about ensuring that people on welfare are given the opportunity to get into work, because otherwise those arguments are disingenuous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThis bill provides an important fabric and a vehicle for change, and it does it for two reasons. It does it because it provides leadership and accountability, a top-down process, which ultimately, through the ViKi system, the Vulnerable Kids Information System, provides a bottom-up synchromesh with the vehicle of accountability and the direction that must come from a cohesive, collaborate, cross-government approach. When you join the top down with the bottom up, you get a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EI commend this bill. I commend the work of the Minister. My challenge to those on the select committee is to not play politics but to actually deal with what this bill is dealing with. We will then look forward to seeing you supporting us in growing the economy and bills that support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022683ba3cf1ff04a9e9e6e58303021f39c\u0022\u003ECredit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3cbd2e74c0a49959a5c3d974759593b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00224bbacad4163745b7b6b8ef7d1a42dc93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bbacad4163745b7b6b8ef7d1a42dc93\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill be now read a first time. I nominate that this bill be referred to the Commerce Committee. This bill forms part of the package of reforms that are being progressed by this Government that are designed to promote confidence in our financial markets, including the market for consumer credit. Rewriting the rules for consumer lending was one of the Government\u2019s pre-election promises and forms an important part of the Business Growth Agenda, which aims to boost confidence and trust in our financial markets. I am pleased to say that the Government is continuing to deliver on its promises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act came into force in 2003. It has since been reviewed and was found to be generally working well in promoting competition and protecting consumers. However, the review has also identified that some lenders have irresponsible lending practices and that some consumers are making poor decisions. This contributes to the dreadful cases of spiralling debt and financial hardship amongst vulnerable consumers that many of us see in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EConsumer credit is important and it is vital to the New Zealand economy. The consumer credit market must be effective and competitive to work effectively and in a way that meets the standards expected by all New Zealanders. Lenders must act responsibly, and there needs to be appropriate protection in place for consumers, especially for consumers who are vulnerable to lenders that are predatory or unscrupulous. Vulnerable consumers often have limited financial literacy and lack knowledge of their rights. We know that, unfortunately, all sorts of people can be vulnerable because they lack financial literacy. We also know that people who are facing tough financial times and need credit for essential items have fewer options and are more vulnerable than other consumers. Borrowers with a limited understanding of the English language are particularly vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ERegarding disclosure, one of the explanations for poor consumer decisions on credit is that the current disclosure requirements and rules are not providing sufficient protection, especially for the more vulnerable consumers at the lower end of the consumer credit market. There is evidence that consumers tend to be overly optimistic about their ability to repay a loan, or that lending decisions are made based on poor use of the information that consumers do possess. The true cost of credit, including costs such as bank fees, default fees, and default interest, tends not to factor in the decision-making processes for many consumers. Another issue is that these fees are not disclosed in a way that enables ready comparisons between different loan products by consumers before they enter into the credit contract. To address this, the bill improves disclosure requirements and increases the value of information available so that consumers can better compare credit contracts and make more fully informed decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill is about protecting vulnerable consumers. Improvements to disclosure are not, on their own or of themselves, enough to change lending practices and provide protection for vulnerable consumers within our society. The bill introduces responsible lending. Lenders providing credit to consumers will have a duty to exercise reasonable care, skill, and diligence, just like anyone else providing a service to consumers. Responsible lending means assisting borrowers to make informed decisions and to be aware of the implications of the obligations that they are entering into. The principles in the bill are intended to be complemented by a responsible lending code reflecting industry best practice. The code will provide guidance on the application of the lender responsibility principles, and lenders and interested consumer groups will be consulted on the development of the responsible lending code, so the code should have a high degree of community and industry buy in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ERegarding credit repossession, credit repossession is currently regulated by the Credit (Repossession) Act 1997. This Act provides minimal consumer protection. Repossession involves the right to enter somebody\u2019s property and take their goods whether or not they are at home. Borrowers whose home can be legally broken into so that their goods can be taken are particularly vulnerable, and they are seldom in a position to enforce their rights. Improvements to the regime for credit repossession include providing the Commerce Commission with a monitoring and enforcement role, restricting goods subject to repossession, and providing for the licensing of repossession agents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill makes some changes to the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Act. It removes the requirement for a reserve dispute resolution scheme. The purpose of the reserve scheme was to ensure that dispute resolution schemes were available to all financial service providers, including lenders. With the approval of a number of other schemes, a reserve scheme receiving funding from the Government is now no longer necessary. The bill also addresses misuse of the Financial Service Providers Registrar by providing additional powers for the Registrar of Financial Service Providers and Financial Advisers and the Financial Markets Authority, and disqualifying persons with certain overseas criminal convictions from registration. This will deal with the risk of overseas-based financial service providers registering in New Zealand for purely reputational reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ETo conclude, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the many, many stakeholders involved in formulating this bill and getting this legislation to where it is today. Thank you also to the Law Commission for its work on the Credit (Repossession) Act. The commission undertook a very thorough review of the Credit (Repossession) Act, and virtually all of its 58 recommendations have been adopted in this bill. Lastly, I would like to thank the stakeholders who have contributed to the development of the reforms through the various consultation processes, including the exposure draft late last year. I am looking forward to future stakeholder engagement through their submissions to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIt is important to ensure that consumer laws are relevant and work as intended. The reforms in this bill need to be workable for all parties involved. We need to ensure that New Zealand is a country of informed borrowers and responsible lenders. The reforms contained in the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill will deliver a welcome improvement to the current consumer credit legislation in New Zealand, reinforcing consumer protections under Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act and providing greater consistency across the financial sector. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u002237ec5a52b95f40c68cbfa07fcd652138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237ec5a52b95f40c68cbfa07fcd652138\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is with mixed emotion that I rise to speak on the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill. I campaigned hard over several years, along with my colleagues, to stop loan sharks and to improve regulation of consumer credit as part of what was needed. Although Labour is supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the Commerce Committee because it does finally at least make some improvements in regulating consumer credit, including third-tier lending or fringe-lending or predatory lending\u2014depending on your point of view\u2014where significant harm is being done every day to many vulnerable families, we are appalled by the significant delay in action by the National Government. So anger is one of the emotions I feel and I know this is widely shared. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EMany people have asked the question as to why the Government has not prioritised this legislation. It has been clear for over 5 years that the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act needed reviewing and strengthening. Labour in Government started a process in 2007, and here we are in late 2013 finally seeing a bill having its first reading. What can possibly justify this delay, especially in the tough economic times we are experiencing, like those faced by many low and middle income New Zealanders under this National Government? What can possibly justify this delay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIn tough economic times the harm caused by predatory lenders, loan sharks, truck shops, and pay-day lenders is huge and has grown significantly. Families struggle to make ends meet with low or static incomes and rising prices, and unemployment remains high. This is fertile ground for unscrupulous lenders and we need to have some action. I have visited budget services around New Zealand and the workers there have told me overwhelmingly that the people they see are hooked into some form of high-interest debt. They say that it has been getting worse over recent years. They tell me the level of debt is higher. They tell me that the complexity of the financial problems that they are trying to sort is greater and that the proportion of people they see who are in paid work has actually increased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EMembers of the community, those in our community organisations, our citizens advice bureaux, our law centres, and MPs\u2014I am sure from both sides of the House\u2014hear these stories and they see the truck shops rattling around the low-income areas in their communities. They see the targeting of our poorer communities by these lenders. They see too the advertisements online and in our community newspapers and they do not like what they see. They know it is wrong and yet National members have sat on their hands for 5 years. This is a Government that is out of touch. It is not as if there have not been opportunities to do something, and I think it is about what the Government actually prioritises. That is why we have waited for so long for this legislation, and during that time vulnerable families have been harmed by unscrupulous lenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EWhen this Government came into power there was already a review of the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act under way. In 2009 my former colleague Charles Chauvel had a member\u2019s bill drawn out of the ballot. I picked up that bill, the Credit Reforms (Responsible Lending) Bill, and launched the Stop Loan Sharks campaign, which led to a huge outpouring of support for change. In July 2010 my member\u2019s bill was voted down by National and Act MPs. I subsequently tried to get a joint referral to a select committee and said: \u201CLet\u2019s work on this collaboratively. Let\u2019s do something about this problem.\u201D But again that was turned down by members opposite and this is despite the fact that they know the extent of the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIn a Cabinet paper from October 2011 it specifically says, unlike what the Minister of Commerce has just said, that the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act was not working well. It states: \u201CThis law is not providing adequate consumer protections against unscrupulous third-tier lenders \u2026 whose irresponsible lending practices are resulting in severe financial hardship and spiralling debt.\u201D That is pretty clear. The Government knew that there was a problem but, despite that, failed to prioritise this work. I think that that is negligent, actually. It has caused serious harm to many, many families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe harm caused by predatory and unscrupulous lenders obviously hurts the individuals concerned, but it also hurts their families. The Ministry of Consumer Affairs\u2019 regulatory impact statement, also from 2011, talks about debt resulting in a huge toll, emotionally and practically, on families. It talks about difficulties in meeting other costs\u2014food, transportation, and health needs\u2014difficulty in engaging in activities that would normally be considered things that families would do, negative impacts on mental well-being, and negative impacts on relationships. These are all things that were stated as consequences of this sort of lending. A recent article, \u201CWhen rising debt becomes a black dog\u201D\u2014from yesterday, in fact\u2014identifies the cycle of debt, says that it is one of the biggest root causes of violence, and notes that negative impact on mental health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ESo I just want to acknowledge\u2014and I know that members opposite would agree with this\u2014that legislative change is not the only answer to this problem. From our side of the House, it is also about addressing low incomes. It is also about things like housing affordability, which, of course, this Government is completely out of touch with, as many have already noted today. In fact, the recent changes to loan-to-value ratios are probably going to push some people into the arms of loan sharks, ironically. It is also about financial literacy. It is also about access to fair credit, and Labour has already announced that we would put in place a social lending scheme to provide access to credit for low-income people when they need it. But legislation is none the less a vital first step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThere are a number of very positive provisions in this bill, and I want to acknowledge that. Certainly the provision around the principle of the responsible lender is an important one, and one, in fact, that was in my member\u2019s bill. It will include things like advertising. It will require the making of reasonable inquiries as to the ability of a person to repay a loan. I am pleased to see that one provision is about assisting guarantors in making informed decisions. This code has to be developed, though. The cooling-off period is extended. That is a good thing as well, as is the fact that, regarding unreasonable fees, there will be more explicit tests for different kinds of fees, and there are numerous fees that many of these lenders charge. I also want to particularly note the repossession provisions that the Minister has commented on. This is very timely. There absolutely is a need to do that work. I would also like to acknowledge the work of the Law Commission in dealing with reviewing the repossession situation, which includes the licensing of repossession agents. One of the other things that is in the bill is around hardship provisions being accessible once a person has actually got into default. That is something for which budget services have been asking for a very long time, and I am very pleased to see that there as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ESo there are many good provisions in this bill, but there are a number of concerns that we have as well. First of all, and fundamentally, there is a failure to address excessive interest rates. One prominent pay-day lender in New Zealand has annual rates of 500 percent, meaning that a loan can very, very quickly spiral out of control. In other jurisdictions controls are becoming more and more common: in France, Germany, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, Japan, Singapore, much of the USA\u2014in fact, a bill has just been introduced that will extend interest rate caps across all states\u2014Australia, the United Kingdom, and almost all of South America. Minister Craig Foss has encouraged members of the public to submit on this matter. I would certainly do the same, and I sincerely hope that National members of the select committee will actually take account of what people are saying about this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThere are other provisions we are concerned about, such as whether the dodgy practices of the burgeoning number of truck shops and pay-day lenders will be sufficiently covered by this legislation. Another area I think we could profitably look at in the select committee is whether we need to include provisions around fair debt collection practices to prevent harassment and bullying. So we will be encouraging people to submit, and the members of the select committee will be closely scrutinising this bill. As I said, we are supporting its referral to the select committee, where we will be doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI want to close where I started, by saying: why did the National Government decide that the regulation of loan sharks, truck shops, pay-day lenders, and the like, who lend irresponsibly and charge excessive interest rates, was not a priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022784db174643c45cb9f2ebb0a4bc70f7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022784db174643c45cb9f2ebb0a4bc70f7d\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand in support of the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill in its first reading. It is sponsored by the Minister of Commerce, Craig Foss. The package of reforms that we are looking at in this bill was shaped by the Financial Summit, which was hosted on 11 August 2011 in Auckland and chaired by Sir John Anderson. That summit brought together 250 people from community groups, budgeting services, NGOs, banks, financial regulators, and credit providers. They looked at ways of tackling particularly irresponsible lending that was particularly offensive and was affecting people in our economy and in our communities. The financial summit participants called for legislation to require responsible lending and for greater penalties for lenders that are not registered on the Financial Service Providers Register, which is under the Companies Office. Then in April 2013 Minister Foss introduced this bill to the House, and here we are at today\u2019s reading of it, the first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe consumer credit and financial services law reform dovetails into the Consumer Law Reform Bill, which the Commerce Committee spent considerable time working on, and adds to that suite of reforms and changes. Indeed, the Commerce Committee looked not just at the Consumer Law Reform Bill but right across the scope of financial bills and security bills. This bill contributes to that overall package, and the changes introduced in this bill represent a comprehensive crackdown on particularly unscrupulous lenders that prey on desperate people and leave them and their families trapped in that spiral of debt that the previous speaker, Carol Beaumont, was talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ENational wants to have more informed borrowers and more responsible lenders. It is important that we approach this problem from both sides. Responsible lending is absolutely essential if people are going to have the confidence to use credit, and the vast majority of people do use credit. They need to have that confidence that there is responsible lending taking place. I read some time ago that Professor David Mayes, who is a professor of banking and financial institutions at the Auckland University business school, said that New Zealanders are average. He called us average when it comes to financial literacy and said that this is not a problem unique to our country, but it is a problem that we need to address. Financial literacy is an ongoing need for New Zealand, because when people are financially literate, then they can then have good judgment about borrowing and whom to, or whom not to, borrow from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EFinancial literacy is defined as the ability to make informed judgments and make effective decisions regarding the use and management of money. But we always know that there are people who are not financially literate, and that is where some people can take advantage of them through unscrupulous lending. So we cannot just put it out there that the country needs financial literacy; it needs responsible lending, as well. That is the other side of the equation. Some lenders have irresponsible lending practices and some consumers make poor decisions. So it is important that this bill contributes to the addressing of this issue of vulnerability and the taking advantage of that vulnerability, which some people have done in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EUnder this bill, lenders must act responsibly. Consumers must have the information they need to make informed decisions, and there are serious consequences for those who breach the law. So this legislation is a major overhaul of consumer law, and I am pleased that the opposite party, the Labour Party, will be supporting its referral to the select committee. I am sure that we will go through this very, very well with a fine-tooth comb in that committee to ensure that the consumer, of course, benefits from this legislation. The proposals in the bill complement reforms being progressed under the Financial Markets Conduct Act, which recently passed through this House. It was also a bill that was undertaken and reviewed by the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E This bill is also part of the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda and will contribute to aligning business law between New Zealand and Australia. Many of the changes are based on equivalent provisions in the Australian National Credit Code. It is fair to say that this bill has already received wide consultation in the sector, and no doubt during the select committee stage we will continue to receive that consultation. There is much to be said about this bill, and I believe that as we go through this process in the select committee and back into the House, we will see a very strong and robust law being put into place that will be, as I said before, of benefit to consumers in New Zealand as a whole. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022447c1688109b4436aaa522012f0e3ec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022447c1688109b4436aaa522012f0e3ec1\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E One of the responsibilities that a Government has\u2014and I think the Minister of Commerce used the term\u2014is to protect the citizenry with decent consumer affairs law. The Minister talked about informed borrowers and responsible lenders, and the last speaker, Mr Young, talked about financial literacy. It is a critical factor, and Mr Young is right. Many New Zealanders, through lack of education, educational opportunity, or whatever, are not as financially literate as those of us who have either been in business or been exposed to certain learnings and who can understand many complicated things in terms of our own personal financial affairs. But I see not a lot, if anything, in this bill, the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill, that deals with that key point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is good that there is extra disclosure\u2014that terms and conditions will have to be put on websites, and that they will have to be disclosed up front, which I believe is one of the provisions in this bill. But that does not link and solve the problem of the person who has to wade through a whole lot of legalese and fine print, and maybe even does not understand, for whatever reason\u2014I mean no disrespect\u2014the implications and the terms and conditions. It does not matter how much disclosure you have, if they do not get that and they cannot understand that, then they are liable to make a misjudgment or a bad judgment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would say to this Government is that I would wager that there is a link. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to work out that there is probably a link between those on low incomes and what I would call desperation borrowing. Those on low incomes may take great risks, a bank will not look at them, and they need the money\u2014not necessarily to go to the boozer or to play the pokies, or whatever; not necessarily to use the money for irresponsible purposes. But they have a need to use the money to perhaps, say, look after the family or feed the kids or get the school shoes, or whatever. I say to this crowd over here\u2014and I do not hear anything in their speeches about this\u2014that I would wager, and I would say most people would agree with me, that there is a link between low incomes, vulnerability, and desperation borrowing. These sharks go around and prey on the most vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have got to say that it is interesting. My colleague Carol Beaumont talked about the delays. She also noted that in 2010, I think, a bill was put up by herself and other colleagues to deal with some of these issues, and it was voted down by the Government. There is a pattern here. There was another bill that dealt with consumer protection that I was a steward of as an Associate Minister of Justice when we were in Government. At that point, it was not loan sharks; it was land sharks\u2014similar issues. There were vulnerable people who were dealing with some\u2014and I say \u201Csome\u201D\u2014in the real estate industry who preyed on them like vipers. I draw that note because in that case, these folks now in Government voted against that, and that was huge\u2014as big as this issue\u2014consumer affairs and protection legislation, where vulnerable folks again were being put in invidious and awful situations and were being preyed upon, and fraud was committed upon them. They are the same principles, whether it be loan sharks or land sharks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut National voted against that bill, and it voted against Carol Beaumont\u2019s bill in 2010. For 5 long years\u20145 long years\u2014nothing happened, and for 5 long years the most vulnerable, whether they be financially literate or not, have been exposed to this and to bad judgments, and to these sharks. And this was such a priority that it was left to languish. I have got to say that you have got to walk the talk. These folks, this National Party in Opposition, voted against consumer affairs legislation. They voted against it in Government through Ms Beaumont\u2019s bill, and now they come into the House and, to be fair to them, it is not a bad hit, but it is 5 years too late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat I say to Mr Young, because he is right\u2014again, I come back\u2014is that he makes a good point about financial literacy. You can pass all the legislation you like. You can wrap everybody up in legalese, transparency, accountability, whatever you want to do. That is fine. But if people are not equipped with the skills and they are not provided with the advice, and, by the way, if they are scratching out an existence with their bare hands and they desperately need the dough, then simply passing a piece of legislation of itself will not solve the problem. It will not solve the problem. You can wrap these sharks up in all sorts of legal requirements, but if people do not know what they are getting into and people are desperate, people will do desperate things. The market for this sort of skulduggery, the market where these folks\u2014the most vulnerable\u2014are preyed upon will still exist and will be perpetuated, as my colleague said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAlthough I say we are supporting this bill, and although I say that we support consumer protection legislation, I just say to the National Government that you have missed a few bits and pieces out of the jigsaw. No one over there talks about the vulnerability of folks. If folks have got decent incomes and decent livelihoods and decent job opportunities, then they are liable to go to places called banks\u2014and, by the way, I do not mean John Banks\u2014and those banks are likely to look at them as a responsible borrower on a decent living income who can pay back a conventional loan at a conventional interest rate, with all the protections that are enveloped around the banking system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned Sir John Anderson. Sir John Anderson is a great man. Sir John Anderson started as, I think, a board member of the National Bank, and he was a promoter of the independent Banking Ombudsman, which has its problems today, but I have got to say it was groundbreaking at the time it was put in place to deal with disputes around conventional banking. I can understand why Sir John Anderson in\u2014when was it\u20142011, at this great summit that was called by the Government, called for legislation, along with others. I can understand that, because Sir John Anderson understands these issues extremely well and has had a track record and a history of dealing with issues in the conventional banking world, and dealing with them, I say, pretty well. But then we move on 24 months and nothing happens, and we get to this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say to the National Government that there are some good reforms in the bill. There are some good safeguards in the bill. What I would question\u2014and it will be interesting at the select committee to ask submitters\u2014is will this, in practical terms, work? Will this, in practical terms, deter the sharks? Will this, in practical terms, do anything to assist people to be extremely wary of those who would prey upon them, showering them with money, and capturing them and exposing them to horrendous interest rates? I note, for instance, that members talked about Australia and bringing this in line with Australia. Australia enacted similar legislation in 2009. So we are bringing it in line with Australia, but we are well over a day late and well over a dollar short. We are 3 or 4 years behind Australia. The interesting thing that is missing from this bill, which I understand the Minister is inviting people to comment on, is the issue surrounding interest rate caps to stop people exploiting those who are most vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say to the National Government that this is a good attempt. It is not a bad piece of legislation. There is some good stuff in here. But I think even Maurice Williamson, who in his time has dealt with the odd consumer affairs issue, I think, would agree with me that simply passing a set of rules in and of itself does not solve the problem. Maurice Williamson and I are members of a unique alumni called the ex\u2014or, in his case, current\u2014\u201CMinisters of Building Issues\u201D. Both of us, over our time\u2014the place is littered with ex-Ministers\u2014have had to deal with some of the issues around consumer affairs protection in that portfolio. We know that simply passing a set of rules in and of itself does not solve the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say to this Government that if it is not prepared to lift people\u2019s incomes and get the most desperate on to wages that are liveable so that they can feed their families, then there will always be the problem of desperate people seeking desperate remedies and putting themselves in hock up to their eyeballs in order to get the basics for their families. It is not a truism to say that only those who act irresponsibly and spend their money at the local boozer or the pokies are the ones who are exposed to this. So I look forward to the select committee process. I look forward to hearing from the Minister and Government members about how this, in practical terms, will deal with the problem of the most vulnerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1e4f3c6f85a44a1a0e7a5b6e8f3c5d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1e4f3c6f85a44a1a0e7a5b6e8f3c5d2\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. I rise to speak in support, at least at this first reading, of the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill, on behalf of the Green Party. The Green Party has been very enthusiastic about this bill coming before the House. I am glad that we have finally got to the first reading. It was first introduced in April, and one would have hoped that given what appears to be broad cross-party support across the House, and given the dire need for this legislation, the Government could prioritise it a little bit better. I have to congratulate the officials from the Ministry of Consumer Affairs who have been working on this for many, many years. It appears that the work in this area first commenced in 2007. This regulatory impact statement is dated October 2011, which is nearly 2 years ago. The bill will hopefully provide some protection for the most vulnerable in our society and provide better regulation of what are known as third-tier lending operators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe lending practices of such credit providers can result in some people getting into severe financial hardship and spiralling debt. That is a major social problem. It is a major economic problem. It has serious costs and implications not only for the affected individual but for their families, for communities, and for wider society. I just have to say that the excellent aims of this bill, which are essentially to ensure that there is a responsible lending framework and protection for vulnerable consumers, really need to be considered within the wider policy context of this Government, which is relentlessly pursuing an agenda of increasing inequality by protecting the privilege of its mates by looking after big corporate rent seekers, oligopolies, and monopolies, and undermining the rights and protections of workers with the Employment Relations Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe have to understand that one of the factors that is driving the need for some people to look for this short-term credit is low income. I note that the Families Commission released a report in 2012 called Pacific Families and Problem Debt, and it conclusively found that low income was one of the factors contributing to financial strain in Pacific families. The reasons given for borrowing from fringe lenders were for eminently understandable needs. Forty-four percent of Pacific families who had gone to fringe lenders needed the money to pay for essential items, and 36 percent needed it to pay for other loans and debts. The vast majority of families who had to go to these dodgy lenders were doing so because they could not meet their basic needs. Going for something like a short-term loan of just $800, in one case, spiralled out of control to a debt of $70,000. That is completely ridiculous and unacceptable. It is unacceptable that some families who are struggling to get by because of policies in the global context that have seen low wage growth over the past few decades are going to these short-term lenders out of desperation. They are being targeted by unscrupulous lenders, who, in many cases, have a deliberate business plan, which is to take advantage of people who do not have much, who desperately need money, and who do not understand the implications of 2 percent daily interest rates. It is completely unacceptable that families who are struggling, who are working hard, and who are simply trying to pay for essential items should find themselves in a situation of spiralling, out-of-control debt. It is not good for them. It is not good for wider society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think it is important that although the steps being taken by the Government are welcome, they have taken quite a long time. In the meantime, since this regulatory impact statement was written in October 2011, we have had an election and we have had the introduction of legislation for the mixed-ownership model, which was a flagship policy of this Government and which was essentially to sell off or partially privatise publicly owned assets, selling them to people who already have quite a good deal of wealth. They have money sitting aside that they can afford to invest in these companies. They are going to be earning returns, potentially, that otherwise would have come to the Government and to taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat we see here is that the Government, instead of prioritising a legislation framework to deal with a serious problem that is affecting our most vulnerable families, has found the time and resources to prioritise a policy that actually exacerbates the problem of wealth inequality in this country. These things are related. It is increasing inequality because of these types of policies that are aimed at protecting the wealth and privilege of the few and that lead to situations where families who are struggling to pay for essentials would potentially go and seek out some short-term relief, going to some of these unscrupulous lenders, who are deliberately targeting them and aggressively advertising to them, and then those families are finding themselves in a situation of spiralling, out-of-control debt from which they cannot recover. It is basically impossible when you get into a situation of being $70,000 in debt if one already cannot meet one\u2019s needs. It is extremely difficult to get out of that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to see just what the Government actually prioritises. The Green Party stands for a clean, green economy that works for all New Zealanders. The economy is just that. It is a tool that exists to serve humans. We do not exist to serve the economy. Our economic policy is based on a simple, obvious recognition of the fact that the economy is but a small subset of human society, and human society is a small subset of the natural environment. If we do not have a natural environment, if we do not look after it, and if we do not ensure that we have clean water and air, a stable climate, and safe food, there is no economy. We are not achieving the goal of human well-being and we are not flourishing. Equally, there is no economy if we do not have a functioning and fair society. So we cannot, in the aim of supposedly increasing economic growth, continue to trade off people and to trade off the rights of the most vulnerable people to be able to earn a decent living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAlthough we are finally seeing a very, very important step being taken, which is the introduction of a regulatory regime that is going to ensure that there is responsible lending, and we welcome this, it is within the overall policy context that is actually continuing to exacerbate the problem of inequality and that is not financially, economically, or socially sustainable. I look forward to examining the detail of this bill during the select committee process. I am very, very interested in finding out exactly what those affected individuals in the community think. There has been significant consultation by the Government, I believe, of stakeholders, thanks to the good work of the Ministry of Consumer Affairs up until now, but it will be wonderful to be able to sit down and hear from the experts and hear from those affected most and to really delve into the detail and see whether there are any opportunities to improve the bill as it has been introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI can say that the Green Party welcomes this step. We are sorry that it took the Government so long to make it a priority. Ultimately, within the context of an economic policy that is simply looking to erode the rights of workers and fails to put in a sensible capital gains tax, we are going to continue to see increasing inequality. We are not going to see a rebalancing of the economy that would ensure that those who are the most vulnerable and who have the least are actually in a position where they are not going to be targeted by these predatory lenders. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022388bad19a07f48a8961367e23e8eabfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022388bad19a07f48a8961367e23e8eabfa\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the first reading of the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill. Can I just say that the bill being introduced once again shows that this National Government is very concerned about the citizens of New Zealand. By introducing this legislation we are seeking to strengthen the regulation under which credit providers and financial service providers operate. By strengthening this legislation we in the National Government are seeking to protect borrowers from any dodgy finance companies and dealers. We want our citizens to be better informed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThis is a fantastic piece of legislation for any new migrant coming to New Zealand. It takes some time before one settles in a new land. This requires a vast amount of effort and a good sum or amount of money. It is unlikely that new migrants will have sufficient knowledge or money at their disposal straight away. Therefore, they are likely to use either banks or other financial institutions. This legislation will protect all consumers by providing them with the information so that they can make informed decisions. The legislation will also be a deterrent to lenders. They must act responsibly and there are very serious consequences for those who breach the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThere is little doubt that the fear that the global financial crisis created in the minds of the ordinary citizens of New Zealand still remains. The global financial crisis meant that most people had to work very hard to keep their jobs and provide for their families. Some had to borrow money at times to survive. However, in times of need, if a loan shark wishes to take advantage of your situation, this is not acceptable. The bill seeks empathy and understanding on behalf of the borrowers who seek finance from these loan sharks. There can be a personal situation such as sickness or bereavement or any other kind of situation that may lead to the borrower not being able to keep up their repayments. Credit providers remain largely unregulated and have no code of conduct. Clarity is sought on any fee or extra payment that consumers are being implicitly asked to pay without the lender properly informing them of the total cost of buying a good or a service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EI take this opportunity to congratulate my colleague the Minister of Consumer Affairs, the Hon Craig Foss, on sponsoring this legislation. It is the most extensive review of consumer law in the past decade. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00223ad6f6af713b4f7aa1cf67f5bb58b568\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ad6f6af713b4f7aa1cf67f5bb58b568\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First. We will be supporting the referral of the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill to a select committee. This bill provides an increased level of consumer protection, and we certainly believe that it is in the interests of all New Zealanders to have that higher level of consumer protection. It will particularly assist and serve to protect vulnerable consumers. It requires a higher level of responsible lending and a duty of care on the part of those who are lending finance to the citizens of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe bill also puts in place greater controls on unscrupulous loan sharks and other such people who could perhaps be described as questionable operators to ensure that some of the practices that have been in place in New Zealand over many years now are brought to bay. We have seen exorbitant, extortionate interest rates up in the range of 20, 30, and 40 percent and more being made out in the retail market. For those vulnerable consumers, many of whom are in very desperate and difficult circumstances, this really is a very, very grave situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis legislation addresses matters of repossession, which have at times seen basic civil rights not being observed. It must be very, very taxing on some families and some communities when repossession takes place, and when, again, perhaps unscrupulous operators are involved in the repossession of those goods, because of the very high finance charges that are being paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe legislation also requires that lenders and consumer groups will be consulted to get a sensible and fair outcome from this legislation. Again, as a result of this bill going through to a select committee and having submissions on it, we believe there is the potential for, and an expectation of, a good outcome for New Zealand consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides greater channels for dispute resolution. Again, often by having sensible dispute resolution a difficult situation might not be compounded and might be resolved where in the past perhaps it would have been allowed to escalate and the finance charges would have just increased by a disproportionate amount. It also provides greater powers for the Financial Markets Authority to have controls in this area. Again, New Zealand First believes there is merit in this. It is long overdue for this to take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe are somewhat concerned, however, that this legislation has taken some 6 years to get to the House. We believe that this legislation should not have taken the amount of time it has\u2014from 2007 through to 2013\u2014to get to this point. It has been a time when New Zealanders have been facing great uncertainty in the workplace, when the economy has been described as being in recession, and when the most vulnerable in society often are the ones who are having to turn to all sorts of means in order to cover their weekly family budget. In that respect there is a requirement on this House to act in the interests of our citizens to ensure that legislation is there in place to help protect vulnerable consumers and citizens who may otherwise be finding it a great strain when trying to meet their weekly and monthly needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESo in this respect New Zealand First will be supporting this legislation going through to a select committee. We anticipate that it will receive quite significant submissions in terms of what is currently in the bill, and we think that with consultation with the wider community, there can be only a good outcome as a result of this. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00227ea72f6419984676ae8d12bc4f383b6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ea72f6419984676ae8d12bc4f383b6f\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E This is one of those opportunities when every single party represented in this Parliament is speaking with one voice about the problem that we are addressing here and the need to address it. There may be differences in degree, but it seems to me that this is one of those opportunities for a select committee to take a framework piece of legislation that sets out some of the measures that are required to address this terrible problem that exists in our country, and to actually turn it into a better law and make it a piece of legislation that every single party in this House can be proud of, where we know that there will be serious measures that will stop this terrible practice of irresponsible lending and stop the terrible circle of debt that so many people in our country are finding themselves in, and that will put in place measures that will actually put some accountability back where it is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement on this bill, the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill, estimated\u2014and this was back in 2011, so it is 2 years old\u2014that there were almost 131,000 New Zealanders who had accessed credit from third-tier lenders in the past 24 months, and 218 companies that had been identified as third-tier lenders. But what the regulatory impact statement also acknowledged was that it was very difficult to map the extent of this problem. It is our belief that this does not represent the full extent and that this is really the tip of the iceberg for the high number of people who are finding themselves in terrible circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the work that has been done on this issue since 2010, and possibly even before that, by my colleague Carol Beaumont, who brought forward a member\u2019s bill that was voted down, who has campaigned relentlessly around this issue, and who has, I think, contributed to the fact that this legislation has actually finally appeared before the House today. I think, as we have heard from almost every speaker, that it has taken a long time to get here. It is not right yet. I describe it as framework legislation. Some of the pieces are in place to address this issue, but certainly not all of them. There is certainly a lot more to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI note some of my colleagues across the House today have talked about the kinds of people whom we are talking about. These are people predominantly on low incomes, but make no mistake that these are not just people on fixed incomes, people whom we describe as being on welfare, or people who are on superannuation; these are people who are working people, as well. They are being described as the working poor. Thousands and thousands\u2014possibly hundreds of thousands\u2014of people are finding themselves unable to pay their weekly bills, their monthly bills, their electricity bills, their food bills, their petrol bills, their doctor\u2019s bills, and their bills for their children. They are finding themselves having to go and get loans where they may not otherwise be able to get loans, and then finding themselves in that spiralling, circling debt black hole, which is also described as the black dog, that so many people are getting themselves into. You do not just have to ask the budget advisers. You can ask Catholic Social Services, the Anglican Family Care, the Methodist Mission, Presbyterian Support, the Salvation Army, and any social agencies in any town or city in this country, and you will hear terrible stories about some of the situations that people are finding themselves in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo will this bill make a difference? Well, it will make a difference if, through the select committee process, there is a large number of submissions from organisations and from people who know and who are at the coalface of these situations, and it will make a difference if they are listened to\u2014if they are listened to. When you think about what is going to deter the sharks, you have got to be thinking about a wider range of measures than are included in this bill. In Labour\u2019s policy going into the last election, we had a comprehensive policy that started to really address what was needed. We talked about exorbitant interest rates, which is not mentioned in this bill\u2014yes, there are the responsible lending provisions, the advertising and promotion, the disclosure by lenders of the component costs, the prohibiting of use of certain items as security, and repossession issues. It has to be a comprehensive piece of legislation to make a real difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAnyone who sits on the Commerce Committee would know that there has been a series of pieces of legislation to try to deal with responsible lending right across the board and with practices that are in place, whether it is people who are being caught at the investment end of the market, the mum and dad investors who are being caught with the financial collapses and the terrible practices that have been going on at that end\u2014well, this is the end of real hardship and real need. Therefore, a comprehensive piece of legislation is required here, as well. I would argue, and I am sure that there will be many, many submitters who argue this too, that it has to also look at the alternatives in place for people from these kinds of lending practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that was done by my colleague Carol Beaumont, in collaboration with my other colleague Jacinda Ardern, was to announce a social lending policy, which really is the other side of this. It is what is absolutely required in order for us to get to the point where people are able to get themselves out of these situations in a way that is responsible, where they can pay the money back in incremental ways, but perhaps where they are on very low interest or zero interest rates. That is one of the core measures that is required. There is a policy that is in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI note that in the Budget this year, the Minister for Social Development, Paula Bennett, said that officials would work with the private sector and the non-governmental organisations to identify options around these sorts of measures, but, to be honest, so far there has been silence. I was actually hoping that today we might hear that accompanying this legislation there might be another piece of legislation, whether it is legislation or hard policy, that was going to address how people who are in these situations\u2014which my Green colleague Julie Anne Genter described as the person who borrowed $800 and ended up with a $70,000 debt\u2014would actually be able to repay their debt. That is the work of the select committee. I sit on that select committee. I hope that in good faith we can all work together across the committee and come back with a much more comprehensive piece of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u0022dddd577040004625b17ef80f614d7510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dddd577040004625b17ef80f614d7510\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the first reading of the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill. This bill is sponsored by Minister of Commerce, Craig Foss, and its purpose is to strengthen the regulatory regime that applies to credit providers and financial service providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003ESome lenders are giving loans that borrowers will clearly struggle to pay back, misleading consumers who do not understand the real cost of a loan, not disclosing essential information, and taking disproportionate security. These are just a few examples of the behaviour this bill is targeting. I had a meeting with a Chinese lady earlier this year. She borrowed $15,000 from a loan shark and was unable to pay it back. She said she had been constantly threatened by the loan shark and even made an attempt to commit suicide. Under this bill, lenders must act responsibly so that consumers will be able to make informed decisions. There will be serious consequences for those who breach the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill because it will promote confidence in the credit market and the broader financial markets. It is also part of the much-needed reforms that National is making to ensure that irresponsible lending practices are stamped out. Too often we are seeing cases of vulnerable consumers making poor financial decisions that can lead to spiralling debt and financial hardship for them and their families. This bill will extend some protection to these vulnerable consumers, particularly against loan sharks who feed off such people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThis bill will result in a new, easy-to-understand law that incorporates two pieces of existing legislation, namely the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act and the Credit (Repossession) Act. Combining both pieces of legislation into the new bill will ensure a high degree of consumer protection, particularly for vulnerable consumers; require responsible lending practices by credit providers; and promote good business practices in the consumer credit industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003EThis bill is the biggest overhaul of consumer law in a decade, and it is part of National\u2019s Business Growth Agenda. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d80cc93b9d4841f0a5fc614e4e32808e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d80cc93b9d4841f0a5fc614e4e32808e\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f6f0ec6814b4e62be9a7090c7105271\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a 5-minute call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d1e8ad5ed2749d28f4a2028bcacd648\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that it is a 5-minute call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135c039e730a4303bb7b4d6b1f1fce99\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: A 5-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278bfbf53953c434f8c5513719a086778\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, Labour supports this bill, the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill, in its first reading. There are some more things that we would like to see in here. We would like to see the bill being given a bit more teeth. It is a little bit of a gummy bill in that respect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f4ba983197410abecaa46a0b3db295\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfaac02937d24e418863deafecfe8d4a\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I was just hitting my stride.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa526c84f194d50ba5a348ea0d90732\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I see that, but the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5fd67497d844279c562777e3cc161e\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Before I was rudely interrupted, I was discussing the gummy nature of the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill\u2014the fact that it is a little bit toothless. It lacks the bite that we would hope a bill of this nature would have. In fact, it kind of signals at the moment that this Government is soft on financial crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe would like to see this bill strengthened. We would like to see it structured in a way that actually allows for things like interest rate limits. That seems a sensible step to take. It is something that many other countries\u2014including France, Germany, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, Japan, Singapore, two-thirds of the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom, and almost all of South America\u2014are doing already. It seems a sensible step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt was just over a week ago that the Commerce Committee met in Auckland to hear about the Skycity bill, the deal funded out of gambling debt. There we heard stories of people who had to pay 25 percent interest on day one on debts owed to loan sharks who visit the casino. People were facing 25 percent interest on day one. Mr Lotu-Iiga of Maungakiekie was there hearing these same concerns. No doubt he is concerned about the gambling bill, because a number of people have identified him as someone with a community that will be affected unduly by that bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWhat the select committee heard was that not only is there a 25 percent charge straight off for these loans but that that charge builds over time. These loan sharks are unscrupulous. They destroy lives. They prey on people who are vulnerable and do not have enough money to feed their families from week to week. They prey on people who are suffering under a Government that does not seem to care about dropping employment, about the way in which median wages are dropping, about the rising cost of living, and about the average New Zealander, who is working hard, wanting their family to get ahead, but facing increasing financial hardship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill here is designed to address something of this issue. It is designed, we know, as a response to the issue of loan sharks. It attempts to get in the way of the truck shops and the pay-day lending, but we in the Labour Party think that it does not go far enough. We are going to support the bill going to the Commerce Committee so that we can have the discussion about whether or not an interest rate limit would be allowed. We are hopeful that the Government will allow the scope of the discussion to cover off that debate. It would certainly seem fairly short-sighted if the Government cut that debate out. That would give a strong signal that it was indeed keen to be soft on financial crime, on those kinds of moral crimes where people prey on the most vulnerable in our society, on those kinds of crimes that people in other countries and most OECD countries have clamped down on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Government has allowed this bill to founder on the Order Paper\u2014that is the other thing that needs to be said\u2014for 5 months, on top of years of inaction, to the detriment of our nation\u2019s most vulnerable. In 2011 the Minister of Consumer Affairs, Simon Power, announced that \u201CThe Government is to target unscrupulous credit companies that prey on unwary consumers,\u201D. He also said that \u201CThere are gaps in the system that allow the unscrupulous to take advantage of the unwary when it comes to access to consumer finance in these tough economic times.\u201D Those are quotes. But it does not seem to have been much of a priority for this Government\u2014as I say, 2 years have passed and we are only now seeing the first reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe would like to see a Government that focuses on the most vulnerable people and on job creation. We would like to see a Government that recognises rising unemployment, the struggles of those in the regions, and the two-speed economy that is emerging, which seems to be a response to a Government with no plan. We would like to see a Government that really takes seriously this kind of loan sharking, looks to create a law that holds those accountable, and restricts their ability to prey on the most vulnerable\u2014a Government that cares for the people. It seems that it will be up to the Labour members of the select committee to put these proposals forward, but we look forward to having that debate in the select committee. This is a bill that needs to be strengthened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00227c448f3ef00749d7a0e114639c3225c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c448f3ef00749d7a0e114639c3225c3\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on behalf of the Green Party to add my voice to that of my colleague Julie Anne Genter in support of the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill and also in support of the points made by my Labour colleague speaking just previous to me, David Clark. This bill does do a whole host of things to set up protections for vulnerable consumers from dodgy lenders and to help create an environment for responsible lending. It does put in place some tighter regulation around creditors. We know that is really important. It makes consumer protection the primary purpose of the legislation, which you would have thought would be there, and sets out responsibilities that the lender has. It mandates the development of a responsible lending code, compliance with which will be evidence for responsible lending. It clarifies the processes and rules around repossession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe have heard in this House and in the media, and from those connected to any group working with the vulnerable in New Zealand, untold stories of the harm of loan sharks and dodgy lenders in our society. We have heard already tonight the stories of people going into casinos, seeking out people who are triply vulnerable in that environment, and setting up loan arrangements with 25 percent interest from day one. The fact that that is legal in our current environment kind of boggles the mind, really. We have heard stories of people taking out an $800 loan for an emergency in their family and ending up with a $70,000 debt. Again, it beggars belief that that has been able to go on for so long in this country. We have heard that it is really not uncommon for some pay-day lender rates to be 10 percent a week, and that loans often compound into four figures really quickly for quite small amounts of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIn the area I live, in Porirua, 95 percent of the people whom budget services are working with have got into trouble paying back high-interest loans. This is a very widespread problem. I think that that is also important in the context of this, and that is why we support this legislation as a first step and would also certainly support the discussion and the possibility of increasing or having a threshold on interest rates, because clearly that is out of control at the moment and the most vulnerable are paying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EBeing Greens, we look at everything in context. We look at systems. I do just want to touch briefly on some of the context that this bill sits within and the reasons that people are getting into debt. It is because we have low wages. It is because our benefit levels were consciously set below the poverty level back in the 1990s. People are driven to desperation. There are not many choices for many people in New Zealand who are in those economic circumstances. I would like to read you an abridged version of an extract from Inequality: A New Zealand Crisis, by the Tongan-Palagi poet Karlo Mila. She notes that \u201CInequality means watching people close to you\u2014extended family, community networks, neighbours and friends\u2014who are persistently struggling in challenging circumstances to try to maintain their dignity, to keep their households afloat, to do their best for their children, and to make good decisions by weighing up the constrained range of choices on offer to them \u2026 It is what happens when real banks won\u2019t lend you money and the loan sharks are wooing you, cheap bait for bad debt.\u201D That is the context that this bill sits within. We see so often in this House bills that are driving people to these places. It is not enough to just put the protections in place; we need the social structures to prevent the need for them. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u00224b0097f1441949ccaa2a2d56ff748a7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b0097f1441949ccaa2a2d56ff748a7b\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Tonight we have brought to this House two bills that help vulnerable families\u2014our families. We have brought in two bills to protect children against abusive adults, and I thank the Minister for Social Department, Paula Bennett, for bringing in that bill, the Vulnerable Children Bill. We brought in another bill to protect borrowers from predatory lenders, and I thank the Minister of Commerce, Craig Foss, for bringing this particular bill, the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill, to the House. These two bills demonstrate again that this Government cares for the poor, the downtrodden, and the vulnerable. In tough economic times, when people have to work extra hard to pay their bills, put food on the table, and\u2014as the last speaker, Jan Logie, has just stated\u2014provide for their families, it is unacceptable that they be taken advantage of by loan sharks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EA family borrows a thousand dollars but cannot pay it back, and the lender knows that they can take anything in that house to repay the loan\u2014toys, beds, cultural items such as fine mats, and even things that do not belong to them. When a young auntie is the guarantor of a car loan, but no one explains to her that she may have to pay back this loan if her nephew does not meet those payments, she can pay up to double the price of the car loan. When a man buys a TV on credit, the contract includes lots of fees and insurance, but he does not know what all these costs are about. These are the types of examples that I have witnessed in my electorate office in Maungakiekie in Onehunga. These are some of the common problems, as has been identified in the Ministry of Consumer Affairs campaign launch last year that looked at vulnerable communities. We have addressed some of the issues around families who need to work within their means and their budgets. Minister Paula Bennett increased the budget for budgeting services up to just under $11 million, and it was a paltry $4 million under the Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWhen this National Government came into power, we set about to promote investor confidence in the financial sector, which had been rocked by finance company failures, and we moved quickly to arrest some of those issues that arose within the securities industry that we all know about. The Financial Markets Conduct Bill was passed 2 months ago. The financial service providers legislation and financial advisers legislation went through this House and did get support across this House, and that was initiated by this National Government. It also follows on from my Moneylenders (Licensing and Regulation) Bill, which I introduced in 2011. That bill addressed the licensing regime around some of these lenders, repossession agents, and forms of security. It looked at the behaviour of lenders as well as penalties for their behaviour. I am happy, and I am proud, that this bill takes some of the measures that I worked hard to deal with in my member\u2019s bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EBut that bill was also in response to a number of people whom I had talked to\u2014budgeting agencies, NGOs that worked with vulnerable borrowers\u2014and the work that they had done. We also had the Financial Summit in 2011, where we brought together over 250 people from community groups\u2014and some of those were budgeting agencies\u2014but also banks, financial regulators, and credit companies. That was the genesis of this bill coming into the House. Last year, the Hon Simon Bridges went through a draft bill that we consulted on across our communities across New Zealand. This bill took on board some of the recommendations of the Law Commission around repossession\u201458 recommendations that were made in total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis is a multi-pronged approach towards promoting responsible lending, by increasing consumer protections and requiring that lenders give borrowers more information and that they also look at their total circumstances. It is not just about the income that that borrower is able to generate; it is about their total circumstances and their ability to repay those loans. It is right and proper that this bill addresses a borrower\u2019s financial circumstances and requires that lenders look at them and at whether they can be reasonably expected to repay without causing significant hardship. It is about responsible lending and it means lenders have a duty to look out for their customers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EMany lenders are responsible. In our discussions across this country, talking to banks, second-tier and third-tier lenders, they are responsible, and this bill does not target those lenders. It really is about targeting those we call loan sharks, those who prey on the vulnerable, those who prey on the poor, and those who prey on those who are unable to repay their loans. We have incorporated both pieces of legislation around consumer credit contracts but also the Credit (Repossession) Act, and this is what this bill incorporates as part of its mandate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe principles in this bill will be complemented by what many have already described tonight as a Responsible Lending Code. The code will go out and seek industry best practice and consultation. Lenders and interested consumer groups will be consulted in the development of that code. I think in bringing that together, I believe we will have a workable and certainly a functional piece of legislation of which we can be proud. The policy objective really is around ensuring that creditors lend to consumers who can manage their consumer credit contracts responsibly. It provides protection for vulnerable consumers, including protection from those unscrupulous lenders we have all talked about tonight. This bill is to be commended. It is a bill that we can certainly welcome, and we seek not just the support of New Zealanders, which we know we have, but also the support of parties across this Chamber. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00221becd7bd05e84d1cac1bda3108fc8d4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221becd7bd05e84d1cac1bda3108fc8d4c\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill. I would just like to acknowledge the other parties in the House that are supporting this bill at its first reading and supporting its referral to the Commerce Committee. This bill is a good bill. It seeks to strengthen the regulatory regime that applies to credit providers and financial services providers. The key messages are that under this bill lenders must act responsibly, consumers must have the information they need to make informed decisions, and there are serious consequences for those who breach the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe legislation is the biggest overhaul of consumer law in a decade and encompasses wide-ranging changes to consumer credit and repossession laws. The proposals in the bill complement reforms that were progressed in the Financial Markets Conduct Bill and that seek to promote confident and informed participation by businesses and investors in financial markets. The sector has been widely consulted on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe Credit Contracts and Financial Services Law Reform Bill aims to promote confidence in credit and broader financial markets through strengthening protection for vulnerable consumers in credit markets\u2014we have heard many of my colleagues in the House tonight talking about the protection that needs to be wrapped round people who are vulnerable and open to unscrupulous loan sharks\u2014promote the confident and informed participation in markets for credit by consumers, and protect the integrity of the financial service providers registration regime. It is a very good bill. I am looking forward to receiving this bill at the Commerce Committee, and I commend it to the House. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Commerce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022325751e9d5af426a93014264240239e4\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e5a7d54eae24cb59be4e7a0ecf44e02\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b84e0490468147048bad06cf58986d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b84e0490468147048bad06cf58986d94\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice and Electoral Committee to consider the bill. The New Zealand electoral system has a high level of integrity. One reason for this is that we have regular reviews of electoral laws and practices. These reviews ensure that lessons are learnt from previous elections. They also ensure that electoral law and practices are modernised to reflect evolving technology and changing social expectations. The Justice and Electoral Committee carries out an inquiry after every general election. This inquiry looks into how the election was conducted, and the relevant statutory and regulatory framework. Recommendations are then made to the Government on improvements for future elections. The select committee undertook its inquiry between March 2012 and April this year. I thank the select committee for its hard work and deliberation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would also like to thank all those who made submissions. The select committee received 49 written submissions and heard 16 oral submissions. On 30 April the select committee released its report. The report is thorough and includes recommendations on a range of electoral issues. I am pleased to see that there is a high degree of consensus amongst members. When the Government responded to the select committee report in July, we set out our approach to the recommendations. One recommendation has already been addressed through recent changes to the Electoral Regulations. Seven recommendations do not require law changes, and the Government will work with the Electoral Commission as appropriate to action these. The remaining recommendations require legislative change, and the Government has carefully considered them. The Electoral Amendment Bill is a result of these deliberations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill implements 11 of the select committee\u2019s recommendations, which can be practically implemented in time for the next election. Recommendations that require more significant policy development have not been included in this bill and will be considered in the future. Having a select committee inquiry into each election allows for a multiparty approach to electoral reform. In this spirit I look forward to working constructively with other political parties on this bill. By implementing 11 of the select committee\u2019s recommendations, the Electoral Amendment Bill will update our electoral law and improve the already strong integrity of our electoral system. The bill will improve services to voters, candidates, and parties. It will improve efficiency through greater use of technology. The bill will simplify and clarify existing provisions of the Electoral Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would like to briefly touch on two specific changes that the bill makes. The bill provides for full online enrolment. New and existing electors will be able to enrol or update their details online using RealMe, the Government\u2019s electronic identity verification service. Paper-based methods of enrolment will continue to be available for those who prefer to enrol in this way. By giving people the choice to enrol fully online, this bill responds to New Zealanders\u2019 expectations that they will be able to complete most of their transactions with Government electronically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAnother important change enabled by this bill is the greater use of EasyVote cards during the voting process. EasyVote cards are currently used to assist election day workers find voters\u2019 page and line numbers in the electoral roll. This bill will enable EasyVote cards to be used as a record that an ordinary vote has been cast. It will also allow the cards to be used instead of a declaration form for special voters. This new use of EasyVote cards will simplify and speed up the issuing of ordinary and special votes. It will also make the scrutinising of the rolls that occurs during the election counting process more accurate and efficient. In addition to implementing 11 of the select committee\u2019s recommendations, the bill also makes some other minor changes. These clarify current provisions and correct minor incorrect references in the Electoral Act. Some of these reflect recent minor changes to the Local Electoral Act 2001. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill should be referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee. The select committee process is very important and I encourage members of the public to make their views on the bill known to the select committee. I hope that the select committee will be able to report back by the end of this year. It is important that the Electoral Commission has enough time before the 2014 general election to implement changes. The changes made through this bill will have a positive impact on the administration of future elections. The bill will enhance the integrity of our electoral system and will ensure the law remains relevant for next year\u2019s election and beyond. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002262101645a9074f299698d65ce20fe5fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262101645a9074f299698d65ce20fe5fc\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on this bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill, and I just say what a disappointment it is that barely a year before the next general election\u2014possibly even less\u2014we are now considering the barest and the smallest number of possible changes that could be considered and made to the Electoral Act. I think it shows a level of laziness in the Minister of Justice, Judith Collins, that I think we have not seen in a Minister of Justice for a long, long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EA Minister of Justice who was very concerned about real change to electoral law would have got on to it more smartly and would have ensured that we have an electoral law that not only reflects the issues that arose out of the last election but reflects popular demand for real change, in particular to our MMP system. A concerned Minister of Justice would have done so in a time frame that allowed good public debate and good public input at the parliamentary level, so that we would be debating substantial changes in response to the growing public demand for change to our system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAs it is at the moment, what we have got in this bill are the barest of changes, made to reflect only some of the concerns that arose out of the review conducted by the Justice and Electoral Committee. There was, of course, another report prepared by the Electoral Commission, which talked about other changes that might also be considered, particularly in relation to MMP. So what have we got in this bill? Well, we have got the giant leap forward towards electoral enrolment. I mean, this is hardly leaping with great strides into a new age of electoral management. This is not a huge leap in terms of technology. It will create some efficiencies for some people and it will be much more convenient to that proportion of the population that is online, but, of course, there will also be some who will want to continue to send in their paper forms and make their changes in a manual sort of way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo we have got electronic enrolment. We have got some technical changes about, would you believe, logo registrations. That is very important of course, because we do not want party logos copying each other. Of course, the silver fern has become a popular theme in some party logos and in Labour\u2019s as well. It has become very popular. So we are now getting logo registration sorted out. That is very important when it comes to public demand for electoral law change. We have got a slightly changed penalty regime for general election candidates who either get their election returns in late or not at all. So the level of penalty has not changed, but there is some modification to the way it is imposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is an interesting new change when it comes to party returns, and, in particular, the requirement that any loans made to political parties, whether in an election year or not, are now the subject of a return to the Electoral Commission. We understand that in our election law arrangements, where there are loans at concessionary rates from friendly people, corporations or whatever, these sorts of things should be disclosed as a matter of transparency in the conduct of elections. But there is an exemption in the bill for loans made by registered banks to political parties. It is understood that these would be at commercial rates\u2014well, the bill presumes that these would be at commercial rates\u2014so there is a question about why any other loan on fully commercial terms would not also be exempt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI have to raise one concern that Labour has, which is that although not objecting to the idea in principle of disclosing loans made, there is an issue about just the level of detail required, including reporting on the balance of any loan entered into from one year to the next. The question is whether that is necessary in terms of transparency for political parties when it comes to our election law arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen there is a very peculiar provision in this bill and it relates to what happens on election day. It is the law relating to promoting a party or influencing voters on election day. Up until now, under section 197 of the existing Electoral Act, it has been possible for cars doing election day work for a political party to be adorned with the party colours of that party. So it would be a red ribbon for Labour, a green ribbon for the Greens, and black and silver for New Zealand First perhaps\u2014I do not know what Brendan Horan\u2019s car will have, if indeed he has one\u2014and the National Party will no doubt have blue ribbons\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4ec25aaff24d97ba2dc6bbc77c77b8\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Pink budgie smugglers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fba8d02c175e48c3929f93b968c0fe97\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It might be a pair of budgie smugglers dangling from his car aerial\u2014we do not know, but we will see it in the next election\u2014or floating around Tauranga. That is the law at the moment. It seems to work quite satisfactorily. Party activists\u2014and let us face it, the Labour Party has a lot of them\u2014as they go about doing their election day activities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f75db4243464759ab08a83b79d5fc3d\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Even more now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022053638b022f1487da5070c3df799150e\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they are streaming in by the thousands, I am happy to report. They are streaming in by the thousands. The email traffic to every MP and every branch chair of the Labour Party has never been greater, as people are lining up ready to participate in the great election rout of 2014. All those activists are keen to wear their party colours. There will be a clean out in New Plymouth. I can feel it now in my bones. All the activists will be turning up. They will want to wear their rosettes on election day, as they are used to doing. But this law, this bill, says that they will not be allowed to, and we know why\u2014we know why. When I was party president I drove around the Auckland electorates one election, and then I drove around the New Plymouth electorate in 2011. Not a single car was adorned with a blue thing on it. Not even the blue cars had blue things on them. There was not a single car with a blue ribbon, a blue rosette, or anything on it. But the Labour Party activists of New Plymouth and Taranaki were out in their numbers, and there are going to be more of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut this bill, this National Party bill, outlaws the wearing of rosettes and party ribbons on election day for those doing legitimate election activity by knocking on doors and doing those sorts of things. Why? Why would National do that? Because National members do not want people to see just how poorly organised and how lacking in support they are. They can get the big cheques from the corporates\u2014it is very easy. You just do a deal with a casino. You do a deal with a telecommunications utility company. You can do all that, but you cannot get the party activists out on election day, wearing their rosettes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill overturns what has been a longstanding provision in our electoral law\u2014that it is perfectly legitimate to wear your party colours on election day. That is very disappointing\u2014very disappointing\u2014and it should not be that way. It should not be that way\u2014and it is only because the army of supporters that Labour has every election day gets out there and is an embarrassment to parties like the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to comment on one other thing. [Interruption] Oh, yes, the growing numbers of jobless in New Plymouth are all lining up to join the Labour Party because they want their jobs back. They want their jobs back in New Plymouth. At Fletcher Construction, 37 redundancies were announced just on the weekend. People are lining up to join the Labour Party because they know where their jobs are, and that is with a thriving Labour Government doing good things with good businesses for good people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to make one comment before I resume my seat, because members will be concerned about this. This bill was an opportunity to do something meaningful to meet the long-demanded change that the public of New Zealand have wanted, and that is to change the threshold laws of MMP and to change the 5 percent threshold to 4 percent, take away the one seat threshold, and have a fair MMP system. The Electoral Commission recommended it, and what did the lazy Minister of Justice do? She did nothing about it. She waited till the other political parties came to her and then she said that there is no consensus. There was only one party that was refusing to agree, and that was her own. Her own party refused to agree to it. Then she said that there is no consensus. It is very disappointing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis was a bill to do something interesting and good for MMP and the New Zealand electoral system, and that opportunity has been lost. Nevertheless, we will support this bill and examine it closely at the select committee. We will have a look closely at the ribbon arrangements and the loan reporting arrangements and make sure that this is another piece of electoral law that is fit for New Zealand, supported by New Zealand, and good for the administration of New Zealand elections. And then when Labour gets elected we will change those MMP thresholds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022808fd11914cb4a39a5960c2390a321ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022808fd11914cb4a39a5960c2390a321ef\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is always interesting following that member, Andrew Little, because his new leader has issued the caucus of the Labour Party a challenge, and that is to get on the train. \u201CGet on the train.\u201D, the new leader of the Labour Party says\u2014get on the train. What I am interested to know is whether the train will have rosettes and ribbons on it or not, and, if so, whether that member will be on the train, because we were very unsure about what train he was on, if any, following that speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIt is a great pleasure to stand in support of this Electoral Amendment Bill, in the name of the Hon Judith Collins, Minister of Justice. As chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee I had the great privilege and pleasure of guiding to fruition the work of our committee\u2019s inquiry, which was commenced by my predecessor, the very capable and hard-working member for Hamilton East, Tim Macindoe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1f7ae505139493eaefe6e12db2bc9ac\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: West.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c2c58890e143dd8af2726de1870056\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: West. Are you West? Are you West or are you East?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dc6eed143f6413fb6bae69db5e5474d\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: West. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022913883577abb40fd9657d7cf2ba8ac37\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you are the very good junior whip, and at least we still have you as a junior whip, so there you go. The work was started by Tim Macindoe in his time as chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I have got to say that the committee\u2019s work\u2014certainly the portion that I was involved with\u2014was very constructive. It was fulfilling. We heard from a number of submitters who I thought made particularly good points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut what was interesting to me is that, really, this process of having an inquiry after each general election, conducted by the Justice and Electoral Committee, is a good process. It is a process that encourages participation and sound faith in our democratic institutions of our electoral system. New Zealand, as far as I am aware, is one of only nine countries in the world that has an unbroken democratic tradition going back more than 150 years, and New Zealanders can be rightly proud of the basis upon which we conduct our elections. We sometimes fight those elections very passionately, with vigour, with great excitement, and, indeed, with a lot of energy, but as a nation we are accepting of the outcome. We do not get involved in all the corrupt activities that we see in some places in the world. We do not have violence. We do not have criminal activity. We can be pretty proud of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI was pleased as chairman of the select committee to receive a very prompt response from the Minister to our recommendations. I think this is a Minister who has moved very quickly to enact in this piece of legislation the 11 recommendations, which are easily achieved, so that they can be in place before the next election, in 2014. They are all matters that will enhance and add value to our electoral system, even those matters that the member Andrew Little was so scathing about, which were to do with ribbons and rosettes and what have you, which in places around the country have from time to time been used in an intimidatory fashion by some political parties. We will be able to ensure that the good people of South Auckland are not having busloads of KFC - bearing Labour Party supporters wearing ribbons and rosettes descending upon them and escorting them to the election booth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe will have a more enhanced electoral system as a result of this piece of legislation working its way through the House. I think that as the select committee considers the provisions of the bill, we will find that we will make good progress. I am confident that the committee will continue to work hard. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00229e6db4de071a4969a63ca8f42b065c1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e6db4de071a4969a63ca8f42b065c1f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Well, what a bizarre speech that was from Scott Simpson. The Government, the great nanny State National Party, is going to stop somebody from having a black and white ribbon or a green ribbon or a red ribbon or even a blue ribbon on their car, because it will frighten the electors. It will frighten the electors, Scott Simpson said. That is so absurd a statement that it should be just a joke, but, actually, it is not a joke. This Government is going to interfere in election day activities that have been going for 150 years, with people allowed to wear proudly on their lapel a rosette to say which party they are supporting. Mr Simpson says that that will frighten the voters. Well, apparently, it will not terribly frighten the voters, because this bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220535390cfe7f489fa0355a6929a28f97\u0022\u003EScott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll intimidate them in South Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d40b794aa1654f2984af7b3d548d65db\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CIntimidate\u201D, he says. This bill actually allows you to wear a rosette in the polling booth. If you are a scrutineer, you can wear a rosette. If there was anywhere that the elector was going to be intimidated, you might think that it would be in the polling booth. No, it is OK to wear it in the polling booth, but, by God, do not wear it out in the streets, because the dogs will run off yapping, the cats will flee, and the people will hide behind their doors. That is bizarre, that is absurd, and I have never heard so much nonsense spoken in this House before on a matter that is actually very serious. This is an Electoral Amendment Bill. It should be seeking consensus. It is really important in a democracy that on the fundamentals of process and voting there is widespread agreement around the House. Yet for petty reasons, which Mr Simpson can do no better than describe as being intimidating of the voters, the National Party, and solely the National Party, wants to impose its will on the people in this House and the country, stopping a practice that has done no harm for 150 years. It is 150 years, Mr Simpson. You said that that was the period of unbroken democracy in New Zealand and, yes, we should be proud of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut I have got to say that when I go out on election day\u2014and even when it is not an election day\u2014and I knock on a door, it is really important that I am wearing something on my lapel that identifies me to the person who opens the door. They know who I am and they know why I am there. I am not there to persuade them how to vote on election day; I do not talk politics on election day\u2014you cannot, and, properly, you cannot. But you can go along and say: \u201CHave you voted?\u201D. But before I turn up on somebody\u2019s doorstep, I want to be able to be identified to that person as to whom I represent, and there is no harm, absolutely no harm, in that, Mr Simpson. You have failed utterly to make the case out for a piece of absurdity in this bill and I hope that you are a little bit more open-minded about it when you chair the select committee that looks at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to say that, by and large, Labour will be supporting this bill to go to the Justice and Electoral Committee. It is important that it goes there. It makes relatively minor changes and those minor changes are, I think, designed to be quite helpful, as the bill sets out. It is really important that you have changes that will improve services to voters, candidates, and parties, and the bill tries to do that in a range of small but technical ways. It is about improving efficiency by allowing greater use of technology. Yes, most people, particularly younger people, are doing things online. Let them do things online to the maximum extent. Do not do away with the paper-based enrolment system, because some people like my father would be absolutely appalled if he had to open a computer and try to enter something on it. But those efficiency aspects are fine. Improving the integrity of the election process I think is something that is really important as well. And there is simplifying and clarifying the law, making the law more internally more consistent. So those are the sorts of things that are common-sense things that have arisen out of the investigation into the 2011 general election and that you would expect to have in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EUsing full online enrolment with electronic identity verification\u2014yes, that is good. A greater use of EasyVote cards\u2014I think that when all of us have taken people to the polls, etc., their having their EasyVote card means that they can go in, it simplifies the process, and it makes it easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcb72be49cb240c1a5442d6abb4ef376\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t take people to the polls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdc97ada26834bbd9834871a87c586ff\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I do it quite frequently. Most recently, I have got to say, I did so in Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti and, by God, they were pleased to see me when I turned up at the door and said I was from the Labour Party. I do not think the National Party stood in that by-election. It apparently did not have the courage of its convictions. Those things are quite good, but if you are frightened of ribbons, then I guess you would be frightened to go into Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti and confront real people there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut I have got to say that as well as the absurdity of banning ribbons and banning rosettes, the thing that is really disappointing about this legislation is what the Government has not put in it. The Electoral Commission is an independent body and, quite properly, the Electoral Commission was told to do an analysis of the voting system if MMP was passed by the electorate and find ways to improve it. Well, the electorate did pass the MMP system. I personally voted for it. I think it is much fairer. But there were worries, and as I went around my electorate the worry that people most often raised with me was the coat-tailing system whereby if you win an electorate and you get 3 percent of the votes, then you carry 3 percent of the other MPs in with you. The National Party is quite smart on some things\u2014it lacks common sense generally\u2014but it was smart in saying \u201CWe know how to rort the system. Nobody much likes the ACT Party. They\u2019ll never get over the 5 percent threshold. But if we give them our most blue, blue-ribbon seat\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d8dc49744b4a458b94288f7da55b0d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ribbons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ff58008fc124da1b1030ae93d13a9f3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Ribbons\u2014oh my God, they are illegal now, I forgot. It said: \u201CIf we give them the chance to get in on a blue-ribbon seat like Epsom, then we\u2019ll get all these MPs that the country doesn\u2019t really want\u2014the electoral system, by and large, would not have in Parliament\u2014but we can smuggle them in on the coat-tails of a man of no less integrity than John Banks.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat I looked at when I looked at the Electoral Commission was that it did not just recommend that that be abolished; it strongly recommended that it be abolished. The Chief Electoral Officer is a man who has been there for a long time, by the name of Robert Peden. Robert Peden said that coat-tailing was \u201Cthe biggest single concern\u201D that people showed about the MMP system. So here is another example of a National Government trying to rort the system, a National Government absolutely arrogant about what people wanted and did not want, and a National Government that has ignored the views of the vast majority of New Zealanders, who said they did not want a rort in the system that allows MPs to be coat-tailed into Parliament. They saw the cup of tea between Mr Key and Mr Banks and they did not like what they saw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat is more, not only is it a rort to the system, seen by the Electoral Commission, which is independent, as being a rort, but also it is a system that is inherently unfair. Let us take the 2008 election. The ACT Party that year gained 3.65 percent of the vote. It would not normally have got any member of Parliament at 3.65 percent, but it stood not Mr Banks but Mr Hide\u2014or Dr Jekyll, one or the other\u2014in Epsom and the National Party gave the seat of Epsom to the ACT Party. The result was that it ended up in this House with five seats\u2014five seats with 3.65 percent of the vote. New Zealand First, on the other hand, actually narrowly missed out on getting elected that year. It did not get to the 5 percent threshold; it got 4.07 percent of the vote. But it did not rort a deal with the National Party to get a seat, and with more than 4 percent of the vote it got no MPs, and the ACT Party, with 3.65 percent of the vote, got five MPs. I want the next Government speaker who stands up to take the call to tell me how that system is fair, to tell this House why the Chief Electoral Officer is wrong in saying that New Zealanders do not want that. And we do not want it\u2014it is not fair, it is not right. We talk about having a non-corrupt system. That is as close to corruption as we get when the National Party ignores the wishes of the people and did not include that in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00226e8b475355314b00b355dc6ab8db225a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e8b475355314b00b355dc6ab8db225a\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora koutou. I am pleased to take a short call on this Electoral Amendment Bill. I would echo the comments already made by other speakers about the importance of this process and the value of it\u2014that each 3 years we investigate our electoral processes, we evaluate them, and we look for ways we might make them better. That is an entirely appropriate process and one that perhaps helps to reassure people about the integrity of our electoral system, acknowledging that things do change over time, and generally it is a good process. It is particularly important in the context of the decline in participation in voting that we have seen over the last several elections. At one time New Zealand, despite not having any law that compels people to vote, nevertheless had higher turnouts than many countries where there was a compulsion\u2014where it was legally required that people voted. We have slipped a long way from that expectation about turnout and I think that is something we cannot simply put down to voter apathy. I think we have to think much more about the level of cynicism and the reason why people may have become disillusioned with the political process, and seek to address those in a much more real and a much more honest and open way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EHistorically, some of the people least likely to participate in general elections are young people, and I think that the provisions in this bill to accommodate the electronic enrolment, online enrolment, will go some small way towards balancing that. The so-called digital natives are accustomed to doing most things online, and enabling people to enrol for the first time or some subsequent time entirely online I think is a good thing. For quite some time people have been able to amend their enrolment details online. We see no reason why you would not extend that and I think that is one of the most positive steps in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe still have another conversation to have, perhaps, about the desirability or, indeed, the possibility of online voting. That could be a more complex and, arguably, a more controversial step. But for the moment, enabling enrolment to happen online is a good and positive thing and we do commend that aspect of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E The provisions around the disclosure of loans are, we think, also positive. Parties do take out loans to fund their campaigns, and typically they repay them. Of course, having the loophole existing that enabled a party to accept a loan and then have that loan written off but not recorded against its income for the election is, we think, undesirable. In a perfect world it would not happen and parties would declare honestly the money that they had received in by whatever means, but, of course, recent history tells us that that level of integrity is not always in evidence. So we do see that those provisions in the bill are certainly worthwhile. Some of the detail may arguably be amended through the select committee process, but the general principle of closing that very obvious and very unfortunate loophole is something that, again, we do support and think is a good thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOne of the recommendations of the Justice and Electoral Committee inquiry into the election proposed that the Electoral Commission should liaise with the Ministry of Education about incorporating ongoing and comprehensive civics education into the New Zealand school curriculum. Although I recognise that that is somewhat outside the ambit of this bill, I would just like to put on record that we would wholeheartedly support that. We think that it is very strange that our young people can go through an entire education from age 5 to 16, 17, or 18 and never be sat down and given some good, basic information and education about how our electoral system works, how our Parliament works, and how our basic democratic systems and processes work. It seems a significant gap in our education system. I am aware of such things as the Kids Voting programme, which popped up some years ago. It was a very positive programme that was well received. It exposed probably in excess of 100,000 young people at schools to participating in a voting process, and they learnt a fair bit along the way. But we see a time when we will think it should be taken as a given that we embed that education into our standard educational curriculum. Again, it might go some way to empowering and enabling people to see the value and the importance of participating in our electoral processes every 3 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe bill makes some minor changes to the business of M\u0101ori enrolment and the M\u0101ori electoral roll. We think that it is unfortunate that this bill does not go further. We do agree\u2014it has long been Green Party policy\u2014that M\u0101ori should not have to wait for a 5-yearly census cycle to move from one roll to the other\u2014from the general roll to the M\u0101ori roll, or the other way round. It is an opportunity missed, perhaps, that this bill does not engage with that. There is mention that the terms of reference did not enable it. I do think, however, that a stronger recommendation could have come through, and I do think that it would have been an opportunity to enable people of M\u0101ori descent to have at least the option of moving one way or the other on the roll in conjunction with each 3-yearly electoral cycle. It seems perverse that it is only at every second election that in reality M\u0101ori have that option to go one way or the other. I think that the arguments proposed in the inquiry document were suggestions that it might create unequal electoral systems with some voters exerting more sway, if you like. The proposition that changes in electoral boundaries could leave very high or very low numbers is, I think, very much overstated. I really do not believe that you would get sufficient movement in a roll in any given year in any given electoral cycle to have any significant impact on numbers within the elections. I do not see any way that it would skew the outcome. Even if somebody tactically set out to endeavour to do that, I suspect that there would be either sufficient opposition or simply inertia to prevent any compromising of the integrity of that change. I do think that allowing M\u0101ori the right to move one way or the other each 3-yearly cycle would be something we would need to contemplate and aim to do at some future point, hopefully not too far into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI would also say that in terms of what is lacking in this bill, again, there is a missed opportunity. It would have been nice to see included in this a repealing, a reversal, of the truly appalling change to the electoral law that was instigated by the gentleman now departed from this place\u2014dare I say it, the somewhat unlamented Mr Paul Quinn, with his electoral disqualification of sentenced prisoners amendment. This would have been an excellent opportunity to put aside that entirely meaningless, punitive, and unhelpful piece of legislation that even its principal could not defend. No individual speaking on its behalf could give a substantive reason why we would deny every single sentenced prisoner the right to vote. It was a ridiculous piece of legislation. This would have been a very good opportunity to repeal it and to take that embarrassment off our books, and it is unfortunate that that has not been included in this bill. The Attorney-General at the time that that bill went through the House noted that it would introduce irrational inconsistencies in the law. He found it unjustifiably inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Unfortunately, we were saddled with it. I think this would have been a good opportunity to put it aside, to remove it. That opportunity has been missed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOn a brighter note, there is some considerable value in this bill. Our very genuine disappointment, I would have to say, perhaps refers back to Mr Little\u2019s comments earlier about how little time has been allowed to get the changes put in place. There is a lack of attention to the recommendations about accessibility that were very strongly and well made by the inquiry but that, sadly, have not been picked up by the drafters of this bill. We understand, or we infer, perhaps, that there is not necessarily any objection to these accessibility provisions being picked up, but that the issues of timing, perhaps, or even cost\u2014I do not know\u2014have meant that they are not included in this bill. My colleague will speak more to that later, but for the moment the Greens are supportive of what this piece of legislation sets out to do. We will seek to make it even better during the select committee process, but we do look forward to it going through the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u00224a44f95913454b278faa0521a8863003\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a44f95913454b278faa0521a8863003\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on the Electoral Amendment Bill. I suppose it is appropriate that we are celebrating 120 years of women\u2019s suffrage, and, in particular, Kate Sheppard, who led the campaign for the opportunity for women to vote. This was world leading, and it is a great opportunity, because out of that came the principles to be accessible, to give eligibility, and to allow women to vote, and the important aspect of this bill actually wants to take on those key principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI was part of the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I want to acknowledge all of the members, in particular Charles Chauvel, who was here at that time, and also the Hon Lianne Dalziel. We had a very good working relationship on this bill. There were a couple of contentious issues that we debated. In particular, I just want to point out the issue with regard to rosettes. There has been a lot of sort of hilarity about this\u2014that we are anti-rosettes. Actually, it is not about the rosettes and the ribbons. In actual fact\u2014members may not be aware of this, but I know that Mr Goff knows this\u2014there is an exemption to the prohibition of electioneering on election day. The amendment in clause 35 of this bill means that the exemption is very narrow now; it is just about rosettes. It is a very narrow part of that clause\u2014the exemption is just about wearing rosettes. There was common agreement from colleagues who were there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ELook, it was not a biggie. Let us just make sure that we cover that. As for the making of the rosettes, the reality is that as a select committee we really did not have an issue with that, so it was passed. It was agreed on, and that was part of the report, so we will go to the select committee with that as well. That was the issue about the rosettes, OK? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI was one of a number of MPs who went around the country, and I suppose what was of particular concern to us in this review process was the low voter turnout, especially for our young people. One thing we talked about was how we could improve access around this. I think that one of the main provisions around improving efficiency by allowing greater use of technology is absolutely important, but I do take on Mr Goff\u2019s point that there is another generation out there that still wants that manual process. They want to get up, they want to do their civic duty, they want to come down on a Saturday morning, they want to go into a polling booth, and they want to register. They actually want to physically do that. So as a select committee, we took this on board. We know that it is not an either/or situation; it is a combination of the two. So the online registration is a part of that. There was also talk about the opportunity to pilot some of that, and I know that Holly Walker was very much keen for us to do that, and we are looking into that. That is an important part as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EAnother provision of the bill is around improving services to voters and candidates. For example, it will allow for greater use of the EasyVote card to simplify and improve the accuracy of issuing and recording votes. Although Mr Peden talked about the fact that we can uphold the system as having some integrity, there was some evidence, albeit anecdotal, to show that there are times when people have tried to rort the system. There were conversations, for instance, about the issue that happened in the Waitakere electorate, and we know there was evidence there that goes to prove that the system is not perfect. It is a great system\u2014however, we do need to be vigilant. The amendments that we have made are to ensure that there is some vigilance around the integrity of the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ELastly, I just want to point out the other main provision, and that is around improving the integrity of elections through simplifying and clarifying the law. We look forward to this bill going to the Justice and Electoral Committee. It will clarify that the High Court can direct the Electoral Commission to recalculate and to amend the allocation of list seats if there is a successful election petition as well. There are three good provisions, and I look forward to a continuing discussion in the Justice and Electoral Committee. I think the provisions we have made are important, they are correct, and we have a unanimous consensus around this. I commend this first reading of the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u00222aaf0f1e270548f488b4e1eccb9269dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aaf0f1e270548f488b4e1eccb9269dc\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will support this Electoral Amendment Bill going to the Justice and Electoral Committee. The committee\u2019s inquiry into the 2011 general election did recommend several amendments to the Electoral Act. This bill will implement some of them, but only some of them. It has been a collaborative process and was supported by, I think, some very good public submissions too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThere are three areas of change that are promoted by the bill. Firstly, it provides for the option of full online enrolment using electronic identity verification, and that is a good step forward. Secondly, it provides for the greater use of EasyVote cards, which will simplify and speed up the issuing of ballot papers and reduce special votes, and that would be a good result. Thirdly, the integrity of elections will be enhanced through amendments to rationalise and make transparent the provisions that regulate the electioneering disclosure of contributions and loans and the filing of election expenses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThese are all very good things to achieve. But there have been some important recommendations of the Justice and Electoral Committee that are not to be implemented by this bill but that should have been. They concern the use of broadcasting of election programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIf I look at the report of the committee I see, on page 39, that it is noted that \u201CThe Electoral Commission noted that the statutory tests of what constitutes an \u2018election programme\u2019 in \u2026 Part 6 of the Broadcasting Act 1989 and an \u2018election advertisement\u2019 in section 3A of the Electoral Act are similar but have significant differences, which cause difficulties when the commission considers broadcasting complaints. Both tests require an assessment of whether the programme or advertisement appears to encourage voters to vote or not vote for a party or candidate, but they differ in the exemptions made \u2026 the Broadcasting Act states that nothing in the prohibition on paid election programmes \u2018restricts the broadcasting, in relation to an election, of news or of comments or of current affairs programmes\u2019, while the exemption in \u2026 the Electoral Act is not restricted to news or current affairs, but applies to \u2018the editorial content of a periodical, a radio or television programme, and a publication on a news media Internet site\u2019\u2026 [several] submissions suggested removing the separate electoral broadcasting provisions from the Broadcasting Act and confining provisions regarding election advertising to the Electoral Act.\u201D That is, I think, as it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe committee itself recommended that the Government align the statutory tests of an election programme in section 69 of the Broadcasting Act 1989 and an election advertisement in section 3A of the Electoral Act 1993. Those matters are very necessary, and they are urgent matters that should have been included in this bill. I cannot understand why they are not. I expect to receive an explanation from the Government as to why they are not in the bill, but I have not heard one so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESimilarly, on page 40 of the report it notes that there were submissions that \u201Cthe Broadcasting Act\u2019s full prohibitions regarding election programmes should not be limited to the election period, and should apply consistently to both political parties and broadcasters.\u201D The committee recommended to the Government that it \u201Cconsider aligning the liability for breaching Part 6 of the Broadcasting Act so that provisions would apply to the broadcaster and any person who arranged for the broadcast of an election programme in contravention of the Act, whether within or outside an election period.\u201D Similarly, that matter needs to be addressed in this legislation before the next election. It is urgent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThose are the primary things that should have been attended to, but there are some good things achieved by the bill, and they include a number of provisions of which I will mention a few. Section 197 of the Electoral Act, which has been mentioned by other speakers, concerns the wearing of ribbons, streamers, rosettes, lapel badges, and so on. The amendment to this in clause 35 of the bill would create a more restrictive regime for those and would really allow them to be worn only by scrutineers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First thinks that is appropriate. It does not want to see electioneering on election day. Voters need some peace and quiet from all the razzmatazz of elections. After all, they have had 3 months of it before then. There is a fine line between simple decorations or identifiers and actual attempts to influence voters. We think the balance has to be against those attempts to influence voters. It should go only as far as allowing scrutineers to be identified appropriately in polling booths. The exemption for scrutineers is justified, but nothing else, we feel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI want to turn to clause 40, because that provides for a candidate who fails to file a return to be liable to a fine of up to $40,000 and a candidate who files a false return to be guilty of a corrupt practice, and up to 2 years in prison could be the result, or a fine not exceeding $100,000. That shows the gravity of the offence\u2014something that some people in the community need to take note of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI want to mention clauses 44, 46, and 47, which clarify the position to ensure the aggregation of contributions to donations for the $1,500 threshold, and the $15,000 threshold for contributions to donations in clause 48. That is good law and it is supported by New Zealand First members. Concerning loans to political parties, we are glad to see the provisions in new sections 213, 214A, 214C, and so on inserted by clause 50. Those sections provide that a party may enter into a loan only with the authorisation of the party secretary, and only the party secretary may enter into a loan on behalf of the party for election purposes. Another section provides that a person who enters into an agreement or arrangement of some kind for the purpose of circumventing that section will also be guilty of an illegal practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew section 214C imposes an obligation on the party secretary to file with the Electoral Commission each year a return of loans entered into during the year for an amount exceeding $50,000, those entered into in any previous year with an unpaid balance exceeding $15,000, and those entered into for the year for an amount that when aggregated with other loans yields an amount in excess of $15,000, and so on. Those are very necessary and important provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EBut what I want to finish on is a major and glaring omission from the bill, which is simply that there needs to be an end of the coat-tailing provision in the Electoral Act. We have seen many reasons for that over recent times. It is something that I feel the vast majority of people in this country want to see an end of. It is time that simply winning an electorate seat should not result in coat-tailing for whatever low percentage of the party vote is currently enabling a party to bring more members into Parliament. The provision should be one seat plus at least 5 percent or just 5 percent or more of the vote to get seats in Parliament. That is what people want. That should have been addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EWe know why it is not being addressed, and that is because the National Party needs people like Banks and Dunne and wants to try to get as many additional MPs as possible; because this Government is prepared to have cups of tea and do whatever else is necessary to gerrymander the result of an election. That is a cynical manipulation of the system and shows that this Government has no genuine regard for democracy in New Zealand. It utterly refuses to look at this provision, but it is high time that it did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5e8cf8626734a0a8f54b91a5243b962\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5e8cf8626734a0a8f54b91a5243b962\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and speak at the first reading of the Electoral Amendment Bill and to follow from previous speakers. What impresses me about this bill is the amount and the high degree of consensus. I happen to come from the school of thought that says that when we are making changes in constitutional, jurisdictional, and electoral matters there should be that high degree of consensus. I am also one of those ones who was really fortunate and lucky enough to sit in on the Justice and Electoral Committee when it was actually doing the so-called hearing of submissions on the infamous Electoral Finance Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe degree of memory lapse from members of the other side is astounding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff525a6f88943a49f3eab6e25dfe509\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Typical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ca652d58024d59abcff55caaee4743\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but typical. Absolutely right, it is typical. Actually, I took the opportunity to read the minority report on that, which we wrote several years ago. Just as an example, members of that committee received a paper at 9.05 a.m. for discussion at 9.30 a.m. That was a total abuse of the democratic process. There was no opportunity to read the document before the discussion took place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe have heard criticisms of this bill because of what it does not contain. Again the short memory loss of the other side is astounding. We know that some parties may want a different threshold for MMP. That is fine. But there was no consensus reached on that. Actually, on the other side of the coin some wanted a proper discussion on the closure of the electoral rolls. So not everybody got what they wanted. But what we have is a consensus. It is a compromise. I believe that for the public to have confidence in our system, that consensus is vital, and I am pleased to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI know that the previous speaker, Denis O\u2019Rourke, talked about cynical manipulations and no genuine regard for democracy. Well, if that was the case, then with the numbers across the House the bill might have been in a different form. But the importance and the emphasis must be on consensus in relation to electoral matters, and I believe that we have got that across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI think it is trivial point-scoring to try to criticise either the process or the fact that this bill has the barest of changes. There has been some considerable discussion, as Mr Little knows, through the select committee process to actually achieve that consensus. Mr Little did not get the changes that he necessarily wanted. We might not have got the changes that we necessarily wanted either, but that is the genuine nature of consensus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI do think that we have a bill here that is pragmatic that will improve the efficiency of voting, will improve the services to voters, candidates, and parties, and will improve the integrity of our election system. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea3c10d2b7f042f4a782508475f1968c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea3c10d2b7f042f4a782508475f1968c\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to comment on a few of the points made by the previous speaker, the Hon Kate Wilkinson, who made the point around coat-tailing and the lack of consensus in this Parliament as to whether that should be included in the Electoral Amendment Bill. Well, there was not a consensus, because it was the National Party that did not want to bring it in. There was only one party around this House that did not want to have anything to do with changing the law around coat-tailing, and it was the National Party. Conveniently, the National Party needs ACT in Parliament, so to stay in power it needs that piece of the electoral law. I think it is rather rich from the member who just resumed her seat to say that there was not a consensus around that, when every other party other than the National Party, which did it for its own blind self interest, wanted that part of the legislation changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENever in my mind did I think that I would utter the word \u201Ckord\u00E9llaphobia\u201D in the House. That is what Scott Simpson suffers from. Unfortunately, Scott Simpson is scared of these. Scott Simpson hates ribbons or is scared of ribbons. When he wakes up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cc6405b5a6949cd87808f7437d8cc10\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cf79fa4ebff40dcae6af9af7eb67574\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: When he wakes up in the middle of the night sweating, it is because he hates ribbons. That is the truth, because that is what that member said in one of the more ridiculous speeches I have heard in this Parliament. He said that this legislation is going to ban rosettes being worn by anyone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d502f971b52d4f799b968d0d21713797\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: And ribbons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc74c9879624f628cbee4455147b455\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and ribbons\u2014on election day because they are intimidatory. Well, as Phil Goff has mentioned in his speech, for years, decades, many more years than I have been alive, it has been part of the election day ritual for members of parties right across this House to don one of these scary things. I hope Scott is not watching in his office. Turn away, Scott, if you are watching this speech in your office, because you will not want to see this! He thinks that it is intimidatory to wear a ribbon on election day. I think that Phil Goff actually made a number of good points about why it is crucial to identify yourself if you are out and about\u2014oh, here he is. Scott Simpson is over here. He is hiding. He is ducking over there because he does not want to see the ribbon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EPhil Goff made a number of good points around the wearing of ribbons on election day. I hope this is actually mentioned quite a lot in the Justice and Electoral Committee, because it is very important that when you knock on someone\u2019s door on election day to check if they have voted, you identify yourself and why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de10abce71b4c299480df82a6e06967\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Mind your own business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc67143a98704b85be6ba47edfa4796a\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so that Minister does not doorknock. When you are knocking on doors, you identify yourself and where you are from. You cannot say: \u201CGo out and vote for x, y, and z.\u201D That is not allowed. But what you can do is say: \u201CExcuse me sir, or madam, or young person, have you voted today?\u201D, and that is a tradition and has happened for many, many elections. It is very important that the person in the house where you are doorknocking knows where you are from, because if you say something that you should not be saying, then they know how to get hold of you. The flip side of the situation is what you could have\u2014and it may be an unintended consequence\u2014is someone from some other party could go around saying: \u201CHey, I am from the Labour Party. Have you voted?\u201D. If they say yes or no and they come back with some kind of rude remark, what is going to be the recompense for that if they have not properly identified themselves? So I think this is a bit silly, and probably evidence that the National Party actually cannot get people out on election day to knock on doors, so that is why it certainly does not want that there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Justice did say in her speech that our electoral system does have a lot of integrity, and I would happen to agree with her. But I just also wanted to point out one thing that David Clendon said in his speech. It is good that we are improving the efficiency of our electoral system, but I would also like to echo his comments about improving the effectiveness of our electoral system by making sure that we not only make it easier for people to get enrolled\u2014and that is what this piece of legislation does, by way of making it easier to enrol online\u2014but also emphasise the importance of actually being enrolled on the electoral roll, and why it is important to be on the roll and to make sure you vote. I am pretty sure that all the members of Parliament in this House will send that message out to the youngsters when they visit their schools in their electorate or outside of the electorates. I say to them to just make sure you are enrolled and you vote. I do not care how you vote; just make sure you have a say in this electoral system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs David Clendon said, and I agree with him, we have to do a much better job at engaging our youngsters in politics and in the decisions that get made in this House. Yes, it is also a challenge to us to excite them to get them engaged in politics and in the decisions that we make, but I think it is also very important that we tell them about the importance of being enrolled to vote. Certainly, I think that the move that this bill does to make it easier for us not only to just update the system and print off a piece of paper and to send it in but to fully enrol and change your details online is certainly a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EJust talking about some of the details on election day, which I think might be of interest to most of us in this House, the bill changes the time at which the early vote can be counted. So to the people who are scrutineers and the people who go and do that, I say that it used to be 3 p.m., but now they can get in there much earlier, at 2 p.m., and go and get the early vote counted. So that is probably a bit boring for those who are listening to this debate at home, but I can say that it is one of the things that make us here in the House excited, having been through many, many election days ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ERight, so a number of other speakers have talked about what is not in this bill, and I just wanted to end in the way that I started, which is to talk about the coat-tailing rule. As Mr Goff said, Robert Peden, the Chief Electoral Officer of the Electoral Commission, has said that the coat-tail rule was a serious concern for most New Zealanders because they do not like what they have seen in terms of, I think it was the 2008 election, was it, Mr Goff, when ACT got only 3.65 percent, but Rodney Hide took the seat of Epsom. It was given to him by the National Party\u2014and again, in 2011, it was given to John Banks over a cup of tea\u2014and that party brought in five MPs with 3.65 percent of the vote, but our colleagues to our left over here from New Zealand First, who got about 0.5 percent more of the party vote but no electorate seat, did not get any MPs in Parliament at all. There was a consensus of all but one of the parties in this House to change that rule\u2014to give the electoral law in our country more integrity, as the Minister said\u2014but there was a lack of support from that party across the House. So, as Kate Wilkinson said, yes, there was not a consensus, but that was only because one party did not want to agree to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other changes that I think have been mentioned in this debate. I think we still have a concern about the declaration of loans of over $15,000, and why you have to declare loans that are not bank loans. I think that is one of the issues that is going to be raised in the select committee. I also wanted to raise the point that there are some common-sense things in this bill that we certainly will be supporting. I think that making it easier for physically and mentally disabled people to register with a representative is a very wise thing to do, as is making it easier for them to register online. Just the general use of more technology in the registration of electors is a good thing, and I think it will be a first step towards the greater use of technology at, probably, general elections. I am not sure how far away we are from that, and maybe the Minister might be able to tell us during the Committee stage, but if we are moving towards some kind of electronic voting to help make it easier for people to vote, I certainly think that would be a good thing. It is certainly something that I think is going to be trialled in my area of Mana in some subsequent elections with the Porirua City Council. I think that is a good thing, to try to encourage more younger people to vote, and I think that it is a good thing that we are seeing more use being made of online technology to help people take part in the democratic process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo, as the previous two speakers from this side of the House have said, we will be supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, but I would just like to warn the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee that we will certainly be bringing up his \u201Ckord\u00E9llaphobia\u201D during the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002258d7bbfbd43e438b90e2cf22c5c61bc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258d7bbfbd43e438b90e2cf22c5c61bc5\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Being lectured by Labour members on electoral propriety and fairness is a bit like taking lessons in personal security from Jack the Ripper. Labour is the party that brought us the Electoral Finance Act, supported by some of the other parties opposite, and it has yet to apologise to the electorate for doing so. But I am very pleased to see this particular bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill, before the House tonight because, as my colleague the member for Coromandel\u2014not \u201CCoromandel East\u201D\u2014and the current chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee was kind enough to point out, I did actually chair the committee through the whole of last year, when 90 percent of the work was done, ably supported by the then deputy chair, Dr Cam Calder. Both of us moved on to new roles at the start of this year, as a result of which our names do not even appear in the report, but I would like to think that we could claim a little bit of credit for getting it to this point, and I want to acknowledge all the members of the committee who worked on the bill last year. They attacked the task intelligently and with vigour, and I believe that a good job was done. So I thank all members across the House for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESome excellent recommendations have come forward in this bill as a result of the work of the committee, and these should streamline election day procedures and promote awareness of the importance of civics and voting amongst young people. It is particularly important that we encourage our young people to vote, because all the evidence shows us that if they develop a history of voting as young people, they will continue with that throughout their lives, and it should also encourage a return to our historically high voter turnout. We can commend ourselves in New Zealand for the fact that we achieve that without having compulsory voting, because we have just seen again in Australia that even though it has compulsory voting, it does not get anywhere near to achieving that particular outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESome Opposition speakers tonight have criticised the recommendation to do away with streamers, rosettes, etc., but I just want to point out that election day must be absolutely fair. Members opposite can trivialise the reason for it, but, in fact, it is very important that the day should be completely free of electioneering and political influence. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it has not been, and I believe that this bill is a positive step to ensure that it is as fair and unintimidating as it can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make is to just highlight the absolute nonsense that we have heard from a number of speakers, including the Hon Phil Goff, Kris Faafoi most recently, David Clendon, Andrew Little, and, unfortunately, even Denis O\u2019Rourke, about the apparent consensus on issues that arose from the Electoral Commission\u2019s review of MMP, because anybody listening to this debate has been subjected to complete nonsense on that issue, particularly on the issue of coat-tailing. As a result of the MMP review that was conducted, it was necessary for the Government to work to see what sort of consensus there was amongst the parties on all of the issues that arose. I have highlighted on this document just how different all the parties\u2019 positions were on a number of issues. Yes, there was consensus on a few things. All the parties agreed that list candidates should be able to stand in by-elections. All of them agreed that it should be possible to be both a list and an electorate candidate and that the party list arrangements should be essentially as they are at the moment. But those were not really the controversial issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe things that were of particular heat out in the community included whether the party vote threshold should be lowered, whether the one seat electorate threshold should be abolished, and whether the overhang should be abolished. If I hold this document up\u2014I have highlighted it in colour so that, hopefully, people can see on TV what the different colours are\u2014when the Labour Party tells us that it is only the National Party that is out of step, in fact, looking at the recommendation to abolish the one electorate seat threshold, of the eight parties in the House at the moment, Labour, the Greens, and New Zealand First were in the minority. They were the ones that wanted to abolish the one seat electoral threshold, whereas National, the M\u0101ori Party, the Mana party, the ACT Party, and United Future all wanted to retain the status quo. So it is completely wrong for those speakers to suggest that they would have had consensus if only it was not for the nasty National Party. What they really mean is that consensus means: \u201CSee it and do it our way.\u201D Well, that is not good enough, and that would not reflect the will of the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EOn the issue of the overhang, the Labour Party and the M\u0101ori Party wanted to abolish the overhang, the New Zealand First Party had a slightly ambiguous position but wanted to look into it further, and the National Party, the Green Party, the Mana party, the ACT Party, and United Future all had the same view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EOn the issue of lowering the party vote threshold, the National Party, the New Zealand First Party, and the ACT Party went one way; Labour and the Greens went a second way; and the M\u0101ori Party, the Mana party, and United Future went a third way. So it is worthwhile just clarifying the fact that there was no consensus. Without consensus, no change was possible. I will leave it at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI do want to say again how delighted I am that this bill has come to the House. I thank all members of the committee for the work they have done to this point. I congratulate the Minister of Justice\u2014and what a scurrilous attack she received from the Labour Opposition justice spokesperson earlier\u2014on the hard work she has done in a short time in bringing this bill to the House. That is a very good achievement, and I look forward to seeing it pass its way through so that we can have these changes in place, ready for the next general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table the document that I have prepared, which highlights the differing parties\u2019 positions on the recommendations of the Electoral Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3e51a495fb849dda628857d87787469\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3e51a495fb849dda628857d87787469\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c9d5cda2741403aa9d63d366ba39294\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I understand that the next call is a split call. Moana Mackey\u20145 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022b87c51bb06174c80aded9c4e1a8dad7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b87c51bb06174c80aded9c4e1a8dad7b\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we are very beholden to the Government whip Tim Macindoe for sitting up in his office with his crayons and colouring in a pretty document for us, none of which changes the fact that the National Party absolutely did not want to get rid of the coat-tailing provisions. None of those members have been able to tell us why the coat-tailing provisions should remain in place, given that the No. 1 issue under the MMP review for voters was that they wanted to see those provisions go. We did not hear anything from any of the National speakers as to why the biggest party in this Parliament, the National Party, which implemented the MMP review and then completely refused to listen to those who participated in that review, did not deal with the single biggest issue for voters when it came to the tweaks that they wanted to see in a system that they largely liked and had voted to keep in place at the last election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThere is much in this bill that is very good and much in this bill that is very sensible, but, unfortunately, there are a number of things in this bill that are completely ridiculous. I do want to come back to the issue of the banning of rosettes, ribbons, and streamers on election day. As my colleague Andrew Little said, this is not about not electioneering on election day, because that is illegal. You cannot do that. So if the concern that members have is that people do not want electioneering on election day, well, you cannot do that under the law. But I would ask the National Party about early voting. If that is its big concern\u2014that it is far too intimidating to have all those party colours there and that no one should be influenced in any single way\u2014does that mean that National does not support early voting, when people are voting right in the heat of the campaign period? Are those people being intimidated? Are those people somehow being influenced in a way that is inappropriate? Silence. Exactly\u2014because they are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI sat there wondering why it is that the National Party wants to ban ribbons on election day, because it just seemed to be utterly ridiculous. What was the point? Then we had Scott Simpson, the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee, kindly give us the reason why. It is that ribbons are intimidating. It is that voters on election day will see a ribbon or a streamer and will be intimidated. Well, it is nice to know the actual reason. That is completely ridiculous and just unbelievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe reality is that National does not have the number of troops out on the ground on election day that the Labour Party has. It does not have the number of people going around, turning out the vote, reminding people that it is election day, and asking them whether they are ready to vote. Also, of course, we assist people in getting to polling booths if they are unable to get there for themselves. People want to see, when you turn up on the doorstep, that you have a got a Labour rosette on. They know that you are the person that they have called to come and assist them to get to a polling booth. Well, the National Party wants to take that away because it says that ribbons, streamers, and rosettes are intimidating. Well, if they are so intimidating, then why are we continuing to allow them at the polling booth? Surely, if they are so intimidating that voters cannot be exposed to them on election day, why are they still allowed in polling booths, then? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt highlights the absolute ridiculousness of this particular provision, because we have early voting now. We are not allowed to electioneer on election day. If you look around the world, in fact, New Zealand is fairly unique in having the great restrictions that we place on election day. I am not saying that that is not a good thing, but of course in Australia, just across the Ditch, it is full-on electioneering right up to the time that the polls actually close. Again, I come back to the issue of early voting. As we go further down that path and as more New Zealanders take the opportunity to vote early, rather than on election day, then I guess it just really highlights the ridiculousness of singling out one day over all the others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear the Hon Judith Collins. She said that when you go on to someone\u2019s doorstep, you are intimidating them. Well, I shudder to think what Judith Collins does on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf8eb8df00eb486e86cece4176a59679\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I did not say that. Don\u2019t lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b076b141d4454b9b1b45f3807e9666\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not lying, Ms Collins. That is what you actually said. What you actually said, in response to my colleague\u2019s speech, was that \u201CYou shouldn\u2019t go on to the doorsteps\u2014stop intimidating people.\u201D Well, I do not know what Judith Collins does on the doorsteps when she is out doorknocking\u2014I shudder to think\u2014but I can absolute reassure her that we do not intimidate people on the doorstep. People are pleased to see the Labour Party turn up on their doorstep, particularly on election day, to remind them that it is election day and to help them get to a polling booth if they want to vote. So I think that the Minister really should reflect on the comments she has made, and if she regrets them now, then I am quite happy for her to take them back\u2014quite happy for her to take them back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThere is much in this bill that is good. As colleagues have pointed out, it is a shame that the provisions of the MMP review were not fully implemented\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223a9b7046e4fc439d835ab2ce7f2b27dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a9b7046e4fc439d835ab2ce7f2b27dc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but the member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022adc1843a82a14b0399466c6fb0fd9993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adc1843a82a14b0399466c6fb0fd9993\u0022\u003EMOJO MATHERS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague earlier spoke about how we are going to be supporting this bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill. For us, one of the highlights of this bill is the provision for online enrolment. Several speakers have talked before about how there is declining voter engagement, and that it is really important to try to turn that round with a range of ploys. However, there is a disappointment that perhaps the bill is not totally maximising its opportunities and I would like to talk about a particular group of people who are quite disenfranchised in general elections, which is that of disabled people, many of whom are not able to cast an independent vote. This is quite core to a democratic society because the right to be able to cast an independent vote is absolutely the core political right. Without that, there is no mechanism for holding people to account. New Zealand has signed the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and that includes Article 29 section (a) which is about ensuring that political information is accessible and is provided in an accessible format including information on how to vote, and it protects the right to vote by secret ballot for people with disabilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EAt the moment in the current Electoral Act, section 170 allows disabled people to vote with assistance if they need it. That is great but the very fact of having to disclose their vote to someone else is a breach of the right to a secret vote. What is more, I have often heard from colleagues that they overhear, when they are in the polling booth, people disclosing their vote, so they have not just disclosed their vote to the person who is going to mark the voting ballot for them, they have disclosed their vote to whoever can hear in the same room. Clearly, this is not a desirable outcome. This problem has been recognised overseas and in many other countries they have brought in a whole range of other methods to try to assist disabled people to have an independent vote. These have included transparent overlays, voting templates, touch screen kiosks, telephone voting, and internet voting. I would just like to point out here that out of all these options, internet voting is the only voting that allows people who are deaf and blind to cast an independent vote, because they can access that using Braille texting technology from their computer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a94870a7-abc4-4c1b-bd1e-8a27b98a2a4c\u0022\u003EIt is very disappointing that at this stage we will not have internet voting in place for the 2014 election. I understand, however, that phone dictation is being looked at by amending the regulation, and we welcome that. But what I would like to note is that at the moment, the regulating-making power that is provided for in subsection (6) of section 170 extends only to electors who are wholly or partially blind, enabling them to vote by means of devices. That is a clear omission of a whole range of other voters, and what I am working on is a Supplementary Order Paper that will extend regulation-making powers to other groups of disabled people, and I really would hope that the Minister of Justice would permit this Supplementary Order Paper to go to select committee for consideration. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc62baed105f4dabbd09a586c5bdd885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc62baed105f4dabbd09a586c5bdd885\u0022\u003EPAUL FOSTER-BELL (National):\u003C/span\u003E In taking a brief call in this first reading debate on the Electoral Amendment Bill, I would like to congratulate our very fine and very hard-working Minister of Justice, the Hon Judith Collins, and also Tim Macindoe, the member for Hamilton West, who chaired the Justice and Electoral Committee that undertook the review of the 2011 election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EAs the Minister and previous Government speakers have canvassed, this bill implements 11 of the key recommendations from the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s inquiry into the 2011 general election. These changes can be summarised in three main areas: they are updates to processes to both improve efficiency and take into account the possibilities offered by technological change, they offer a tightening of rules to ensure fairness and integrity in our voting system, and they offer minor technical fixes to our otherwise pretty robust existing electoral law\u2014that is, the law as implemented by the National-led Government in the last term, prior to the 2011 election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EAmong the improvements that this bill introduces, I particularly applaud the inclusion of a provision for full online enrolment using electronic identity verification through the Government\u2019s RealMe system. It seems only sensible that in this era of the falling use of snail mail and increased uptake of online services, enrolment to vote should be a process that can be completed electronically online. This will make it a much more convenient and efficient process for the end clients\u2014that is, the electors\u2014and therefore we should see an increase in enrolment rates and the accuracy of the electoral roll. But it is also important that up-to-date safeguards and sureties against hacking, data corruption, identity theft, and false registration should be deployed to protect the integrity of our electoral system. So it is good to see this as another practical implementation of the RealMe system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EProvision for increased use of EasyVote cards also seems pretty logical to me. These will now be able to be used as the official record for an ordinary vote having been issued and as evidence that a special voter is enrolled and eligible to vote. These changes make very good sense in terms of streamlining the voting process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EExtensions to the time frame for filing party vote declarations to 90 days\u2014as we know, this can be a fairly time-consuming and bureaucratic process for our various party officials\u2014also seems like a fair measure, but this is balanced against tougher penalties for failing to meet the requirement to file expenses and donation returns within 15 days of the deadline. Late returns without reasonable excuse will now, actually\u2014contrary to what Mr Little said earlier\u2014become a corrupt practice and therefore face much higher penalties than in the past. Treating loans to parties in a similar way to donations and making loans the subject of the same disclosure rules as donations also helps to strengthen the integrity of our already very sound system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EAs I learnt at the Transparency International New Zealand branch workshop yesterday at Te Papa, which was also attended by the Hon Phil Goff, our system is already perceived as being among the cleanest in the world. A high-integrity electoral system is one of the 13 key pillars that Transparency International identifies, along with an uncorrupt Public Service, impartial judiciary, sound law enforcement authorities, and an effective audit and review function, among others, that contribute to New Zealand being ranked as the No. 1 least corrupt country in the world, in its survey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EWe are doing well, but this legislation will help us stay ahead of the game and maintain our outstanding No. 1 ranking, which is so important to our exporters because of the international reputation and high trust levels in our country, our people, and our products that this engenders. So for this reason, among other reasons, I happily commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022150db737cb2c45a8ba1fcbabdcba2328\u0022\u003EPublic Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227974082c926e465baea7d424489537aa\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00221633c8acc2d2446890c7ba9bb9497f99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221633c8acc2d2446890c7ba9bb9497f99\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice and Electoral Committee to consider the bill. This bill will improve public safety and save potential victims from almost certain serious harm, or worse. The High Court will be able to order the detention of the most high-risk offenders, under a public protection order. The new order will complement existing measures such as parole conditions, extended supervision orders, and preventive detention. The bill responds to situations where an offender presents an unacceptable risk that cannot be managed through these existing measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EPeople must ask themselves whether they would place someone who has a very high risk of imminent and serious sexual or violent offending in any community in New Zealand, let alone their own. At this very high level of imminent risk, the law runs out of options to manage these offenders\u2019 behaviours once their sentence is complete. This is reflected in the small number of people expected to receive a public protection order. I expect five to 12 orders over a 10-year period. Once public safety has been assured, the bill provides that the people detained under a public protection order will have all the rights of other citizens. Detention under the bill is civil in nature but within the precincts of a prison because the safety of the community cannot be assured otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESome may say that the bill raises significant human rights issues. I believe this bill strikes the right balance between the liberty rights of individuals under a public protection order and our duty to protect New Zealanders from imminently dangerous offenders. The bill is necessary, effective, proportionate, and fair. The bill specifies a threshold and a test for a public protection order. The threshold requires that a person has nearly completed sentences for sexual or violent offending or has been released from prison and is subject to the most intensive form of supervision. The test requires that the person poses a very high risk of imminent and serious sexual or violent offending. Imminence means that the person is expected to commit a serious sexual or violent offence as soon as they have the suitable opportunity to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Crown must prove four characteristics that give rise to the risk. I will go through each of these characteristics in turn because they are integral to the justification for continuing detention under a public protection order. The first is an intense drive or urge to offend. Evidence used to prove this urge could include, for example, the individual\u2019s rapid reoffending following previous releases from custody. The second is an inability to control behaviour and emotions. This may be shown by evidence of impulsiveness and an inability to cope with or manage any form of stress or difficulties. The third is an absence of understanding and concern for the impact of offending on potential or actual victims. I would note here that all offenders in this group who could be subject to a public protection order will have had or been offered the opportunity of comprehensive treatment during their time in prison. The fourth and final characteristic is that the person experiences poor interpersonal relationships or social isolation, or both. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Crown must prove all four of these characteristics to a high level, to subject someone to a public protection order. Three out of four characteristics is not enough to support an order. Although these people have offended in the past, they will not be detained for their previous crimes. They will be detained because of their imminent risk of serious sexual or violent offending, at the time of the application. The test for the risk of imminent future offending will be difficult to meet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill recognises the serious implications of a public protection order. It also provides the following robust procedures for making the orders. Only the High Court in its civil jurisdiction will be authorised to make an order. Any application to the High Court will be accompanied by two health assessors\u2019 reports on the level of risk posed by the person. A person for whom an order is sought will have the right to independent legal advice and psychological evaluation\u2014funded, if necessary, by legal aid. The court may, of its own initiative, direct a health assessor to prepare a report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill includes a number of safeguards for the protection of the rights of individuals subject to a public protection order. There is ongoing judicial and independent supervision of the detention. A review panel will review public protection orders each year. The High Court will review the public protection orders every 5 years, or more frequently on the recommendation of the review panel or on application by the resident. These regular reviews ensure that the initial determination of risk does not result in unjustifiable continuing detention. A regular review of the basis for detention ensures that a person is detained only when they pose risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe measures in this bill will improve public safety by ensuring the detention of individuals who pose a very high risk of imminent and serious sexual or violent offending. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00224d0f7abca5e44a56a9ebabc42978d137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d0f7abca5e44a56a9ebabc42978d137\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill, and from the outset I say that, notwithstanding some concerns we have about an aspect of this bill, we will support it because we think it should be given proper and appropriate examination in the Justice and Electoral Committee. I note that this bill has taken some time to arrive at this stage in Parliament. It was a promise made in the 2011 election campaign by the National Party. I think there was an undertaking for some consultation by the Government with other parties in Parliament. That did not happen. The bill was tabled and is now being read for the first time, notwithstanding the fact that there have been prisoners reaching the end of their sentence who have posed a risk to the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe understand that this bill and the measures that it contains apply when the sentence of an offender convicted of a violent or sexual offence is exhausted. There is a tension between the long-established principles of criminal justice, which are that the crime is proven, a conviction is entered, a sentence is to reflect the magnitude of the crime, and a punishment is proportionate to the crime that has been committed. Normally, the sentence is given with the minimum incarceration period, with potential for parole, on the basis that a convicted offender has the opportunity to demonstrate that they are capable and that they can return to the community and pose little or no risk to the community. But the Minister of Justice is right. It is a very small number, but it is the nature of humanity\u2014there are people who, because of the nature of their personality, the nature of who they are, continue to pose a serious risk to the community. There does need to be a way of managing just those sorts of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe might wonder why it is that we have not had measures to deal with those people until now\u2014why that has not been a problem until now. It is certainly something I have reflected on. Probably, once upon a time, these are the sorts of people who would have been locked up in a mental health institution and left, and they would have been placed under some sort of compulsory order. They may not have had a genuine mental health problem\u2014they might have had a personality disorder\u2014but they would have been left inside a mental health institution and treated accordingly. Many years ago they possibly would have been treated through lobotomies and other measures, which is what, of course, was depicted in that great movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo\u2019s Nest. But we have a system now where, of course, we do not treat people with personality disorders who are routinely violent in that sort of way, and we have a set of social mores that tries to put as many people as possible in the mainstream. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut, as the Minister has said and as we know from media reports, there is that very small number of people who have demonstrated that regardless of convictions that they have had entered against them and the punishment that has been meted out to them and that they have been managed under in our criminal justice system, they nevertheless continue to pose a risk to the community. We understand that there needs to be that balance struck between those people who fulfil their criminal justice obligations and who would otherwise be entitled to the freedom that they would otherwise get and those who, were they to be freed into the community, would pose not just some risk but, as the legislation says, an \u201Cimminent\u201D risk\u2014a risk that I would see as an almost certain risk to the public\u2014and therefore there needs to be some sort of restraint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut, as I said in a debate on a bill earlier today, we are seeing more of this sort of legislation. We saw it with the Vulnerable Children Bill. We have seen it in other legislation where this House is being asked to put in place measures that do not fit the criminal justice framework that we are used to but are about affording protection to the community. I do note, by comparison, the provisions in this bill as compared with those in the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill. One of my criticisms about the latter bill is that it is left up to victims to take steps to afford themselves protection in circumstances where I would have thought it was obvious they were entitled to it. In this bill, as indeed under the Vulnerable Children Bill, it is left up to a public official to make that application in the civil jurisdiction of the court. I simply prevail upon the Minister to think carefully about the disparity that is opening up now in these pieces of legislation. If it is genuinely about affording protection to the public against people who are a clear and obvious risk to the public, then that is a matter that certainly, in the public interest, the State should pick up the cost of and take responsibility for. There is no reason why some consistency should not be created across these pieces of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ELet me go back to the point I wanted to make. One of the things we will be doing as the select committee process unfolds with this bill is ensuring that a proper balance is struck between the criminal justice system doing its job within the sorts of principles and the framework that we are used to and those people who, having been though the system, are otherwise entitled to their freedom. This bill says that there will be some constraints on an offender who comes under the aegis of this piece of legislation. It says that a prisoner detained under a protection order under this bill will have the rights of a person of full capacity who is not subject to a public protection order, except as limited by the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the reality is that the limitations are extensive. The person must be in a facility within the precincts of a prison. Their communication means are subject to scrutiny and potential interference. They are not entitled to unsupervised access to the internet, and there are other limitations that they are subject to as well: monitoring of telephone calls, search and seizure, including strip-searches, and drug and alcohol tests. So we will need to hear from the authorities, if not the experts, those who will be called upon to certify that these people are the risk that is claimed of them, whether or not these sorts of measures simply go too far in terms of that balance between protecting the public and ensuring that there is at least some freedom afforded to people who have fulfilled their obligations to the criminal justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat we do not want to do is pass law after law and bill after bill that do not just encroach upon important freedoms but start establishing, as a matter of principle, that it is OK to do this without a proper consideration of those rights of citizenship, including the rights of citizens who have transgressed the normal mores and socially accepted standards of behaviour but who have paid their dues, done their time, been punished as a result, and ought ordinarily to expect to go back into the community. That is the principle of criminal justice. We must always uphold that, but there will be exceptions. When we are faced with these difficult problems that this bill seeks to address, then we in this House need to be absolutely sure in fulfilling our duty as representatives of all citizens that we have got that balance right, that we have got the tension properly managed, and that we do not create a principle that allows us without undue ceremony to encroach on those important rights. As I said at the beginning, we will support this bill going to the select committee. We will examine it very closely and very carefully to make sure that all those rights and those principles are properly respected and observed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002260891a9f59e64d29adeb0c982a3288b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260891a9f59e64d29adeb0c982a3288b3\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and stand in support of the first reading of the Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill in the name of the Hon Judith Collins, Minister of Justice. We have heard two presentations, one from the Minister and one from the Labour justice spokesperson, Andrew Little, and I think that they have both been very good, measured, and well-considered presentations. There are, unfortunately, in society a very small number of troubled people who have fulfilled their obligations in terms of the criminal justice system but still present a real and very threatening risk to the wider public. As Andrew Little made the point in his speech, in less enlightened times, these people would probably have been incarcerated in some kind of mental institution, where they would have been subjected to all kinds of indignities, both mental and physical and probably involving drugs and all kinds of treatments that we would consider entirely inappropriate today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAs a Parliament we do have an obligation to balance very carefully and very finely the responsibilities of the State to ensure that the public are protected, in their homes and as they go about their lawful business, from this very small number of people who have the potential to inflict ongoing harm and danger to the general public. So this piece of legislation fulfils a campaign pledge that I and other members of the Government campaigned on during the 2011 general election. It is aimed at people who reach the end of their finite prison sentence and who are subject to the most intensive form of extended supervision order, and yet who still pose a very high risk of imminent, serious sexual or violent reoffending, and where less restrictive forms of supervision are simply not going to be adequate for preventing almost all further reoffending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that believes that we should ensure that New Zealanders can feel safe in their homes and in their communities. So I think this fulfilment of an election promise is a significant piece of legislation, and I am very pleased that the Minister has been able to bring it to the House for consideration by the Justice and Electoral Committee. Despite serving prison terms, a few dangerous offenders are highly likely to reoffend once they have been released back into society. Existing mechanisms such as preventive detention and extended supervision orders, which allow authorities to monitor, manage, and/or recall offenders to prison, are sometimes simply not adequate to protect the public. I think this piece of legislation, as we go through the select committee, will probe and make sure that the balance between the public\u2019s right to protection and also the individual\u2019s rights in terms of the fulfilment of the criminal justice penalties that have been inflicted upon them because of previous bad crimes will be neatly addressed. The bill balances those rights of New Zealanders to be safe in their community with the rights of offenders who have served their sentence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis bill will protect members of the public, and that is what it is really all about. The public protection order will be a court order that will allow the detention of a very high-risk individual at a secure facility within existing prison precincts. Only a very small number of people are likely to be subject to public protection orders. As the Minister has indicated, officials estimate that over the next decade a maximum of somewhere between five and 12 offenders are likely to be included in these public protection orders. Individuals will have the opportunity to show that the Crown has not established that they meet the risk criteria at the time that the Crown applies to the High Court for an order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo what are the risk criteria? Well, \u201Cvery high risk\u201D will mean that offending is considered extremely likely. \u201CSerious\u201D means that the predicted offending would cause serious physical or psychological harm to one or more other persons. \u201CImminent\u201D means that the offending is expected to occur when, provided with a suitable opportunity, the offender would immediately inflict serious physical or psychological harm to one or more persons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI think this will be a good piece of legislation. As I said, I am very pleased that the Minister has introduced it to the House. As chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee, I am looking forward to the deliberations and to the submissions we will receive on it. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022869b6d8143cb4c24817a759f29a85ca1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022869b6d8143cb4c24817a759f29a85ca1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Andrew Little said, Labour will be supporting this bill, the Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill, going through to the Justice and Electoral Committee. Notwithstanding the fact that it was an election promise and therefore some may be sceptical about the motivation of it, I think there is a need to reflect on the fact that there is a small group of people in the community who are very likely to reoffend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EOne of the hardest things that I found in 6 years as Minister of Justice was dealing with people who had committed crimes and who were often of low intellectual ability. They were most frequently paedophiles. They behaved in a way that would be totally irrational to all of us in this House. They were compulsive in their behaviour, and I worried a lot about some of those individuals. I can still think of the names of some of them\u2014that were released publicly. Lloyd McIntosh was one of them. He was responsible for sexual violation of a baby. It is not normal behaviour. He had low intellectual ability. He had served his time and we could not do anything with him. It was that particular case that led me to think very seriously about what we do in that minority of cases where people who have served their time and would normally be released to the community are not actually safe to have in the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe did a range of different things, all of which were effective to deal with most of the cases that we confronted. One thing we did was make greater use of preventive detention, rather than sentencing somebody after they had effectively already served their time. As you are aware, when you are sentenced to preventive detention, usually for a serious sexual or violent offence, you can be detained indefinitely. You are released only when the professionals consider that you are safe to be released, and once you are released, you can be recalled at any time that you show high-risk factors indicating that you are likely to reoffend. So we extended the use of preventive detention so that we could deal with that category of people\u2014who in some senses were barely culpable, because of low intellectual ability and compulsive behaviour\u2014and keep the community safe from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E In the case of people who are sentenced to life imprisonment\u2014which is for a restricted number of offences, of course, such as murder\u2014again, when you release people, you have the capability to recall them if they look to be at risk of reoffending. But that does not cover the sorts of people whom we were concerned about. Normally, when somebody has served their sentence right to the end, you can keep them on parole for 6 months past the period of their determinate sentence, but, again, some of these people clearly were not safe to be in the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere is the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Act, and that gives the authorities the power to detain people for up to 3 years. But I accept that notwithstanding the range of things that we put in place, there is still a number of people\u2014said in the regulatory impact statement to be between five and 12 over a 10-year period\u2014who fall through the cracks and are not even adequately dealt with through the system of extended supervision, which can last for 10 years, which was perhaps the most effective measure that I introduced to try to deal with people who were very high-risk reoffenders and reoffenders in terms of serious offences that had dramatically bad impacts on their victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI accept that this bill is not about punishment; it is actually about protecting the community. Protection of the community in this small number of cases is a valid consideration against which to balance the longstanding principle of justice that you do the crime, you serve the time, and when you have served the time, you are released and you are a free person. What we are actually proposing in this bill is that when people have served their time, they will actually keep on serving time indefinitely. That is a significant step to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMost countries have indeterminate sentences, such as preventive detention. That meets the criteria of the United Nations Human Rights Committee. It meets the criteria followed by the European Union\u2019s human rights court. But the concept of detaining people after they have served the sentence imposed on them by the court is pretty unusual. We can be pretty certain that it will breach the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. We can be pretty certain that it breaches the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. You do not lightly take action and legislate in this way when you know in advance that you are going to be in breach of significant pieces of legislation and international obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhen I have looked at what is done internationally, actually, there is not that much that goes this far. In some of the Australian states, people can continue to be kept in prison, mainly for crimes of sexual offending and often sexual offending against children. In England and Scotland there is a form of close supervision for sexual and violent offenders, but that is in the community. In the United States there is a form of civil detention. So we are taking a very significant step here, which is why the select committee will be obligated to look very closely at what this bill actually means. I accept that there are safeguards put into this legislation, quite appropriately. There will be regular reviews of detention by a review panel and by the High Court, there will be an independent inspector, there will be ombudsmen\u2019s visits, and there will be annual reporting to Parliament. But notwithstanding all of those things, this is a pretty dramatic step to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe objective, as set out in the regulatory impact statement, is to deal with people who present \u201Ca very high risk of imminent and serious sexual or violent re-offending\u201D. What does that mean? Well, \u201Cvery high risk\u201D means that offending is considered to be extremely likely. The judgment will be made by professionals such as psychologists who have worked with the individuals over a significant period of time. \u201CSerious\u201D means that if you put this small group of people out into the community, you are putting individuals at risk of really serious physical and psychological harm\u2014people who are innocent victims. You do not really want to have those people victimised when you take the step of waiting for an offender almost inevitably to offend and then put them away. The damage has been done. \u201CImminent\u201D is also an important word. It means that offending is expected to occur when the offender is provided with a suitable opportunity, and the offender would immediately inflict serious harm on a vulnerable victim. When you consider those criteria, when you consider that the people whom you are dealing with are a real problem to the community, there needs to be a way to protect the community from those individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI have talked about international practice, and looking at the regulatory impact statement it is difficult to find a lot of precedent for what is being proposed to the House, so I think the select committee, if it decides to proceed with this legislation, will need to ensure that the safeguards are very clear and are very reliable. The final thing is in terms of human rights. I want to come back to that. The regulatory impact statement does make it clear that this bill will breach human rights legislation in this country and internationally in a number of different ways. The challenge that we will face in examining this legislation\u2014first of all the select committee examining it and then us in the House\u2014is to ensure that any action that we are taking can be justified on the basis of an intense risk from a very small number of people. And on that basis, the select committee and the House may subsequently find that this legislation does need to be put into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbe807460f354ed0be0b27c76a25f21b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbe807460f354ed0be0b27c76a25f21b\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is interesting that we are debating the Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill for the first time in Parliament 1 day short of a year after its introduction. It was introduced on 18 September 2012. We are here today on 17 September 2013, and this bill is being read for the first time. Mr Goff made the point that the National Party campaigned on the suggestion or the proposition that legislation of this nature would come into the House if it won the election, which, clearly, it did. Two years on, despite the implied urgency of legislation like this and the apparent urgent necessity for it, it has taken the Government 2 years to bring this bill to its first reading. I think that is worth reflecting on in terms of the motivation behind this bill. All sorts of extravagant and wild things get promised and said in the heat of an election campaign, and I do feel that the legislation reflects more a political than a principled position in terms of its provisions, in terms of what it seeks to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAt the time a year ago when this bill was introduced, we were assured by the Minister of Justice that the orders were intended to be protective, not punitive, that it was not a form of double jeopardy, and that offenders would have as many civil rights as practicable. And that is a really interesting qualifier to put against the notion of civil rights\u2014that offenders would be assigned as many rights as were practicable. So 1 year on we are debating this legislation for the first time, and again we cast our minds back a year, when it was introduced, around the time when there was a great deal of attention being paid to the form of release of one offender, Stewart Murray Wilson. At that time there was an extraordinarily irresponsible display of media reporting, there was an extraordinary level of sensationalism about that single case, and I do think that that, in a sense, paved the way, potentially, for legislation like this, which in the Green view does significantly overstep the mark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOne needs look no further than the regulatory impact statement. Right up front some of it talks about some of the constraints on the analysis done by the officials whose job it was to prepare that statement. It makes the point that \u201Cit is not possible to accurately report recidivism data for such a small and unique subset of offenders.\u201D It makes the point that \u201CImpacts arising from other initiatives\u201D\u2014and it mentions the Sentencing Act 2002, which significantly expanded the criteria for preventive detention\u2014\u201Cmay reduce the need for the proposed measures over time.\u201D It is pointed out that the provisions in this bill as they have evolved are \u201Clikely to override fundamental common law principles \u2026 specifically, the principles in favour of liberty of the subject, that the law should conform with both international law and treaty obligations \u2026\u201D, and that we should assure that \u201Cstatutes and regulations operate prospectively.\u201D, not retrospectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe point has been made that this legislation has been designed to capture a vanishingly small number of offenders\u2014potentially, as few as five individuals and at the highest estimate it would be 12 people. It does seem extraordinary to put in place a unique piece of legislation that does compromise our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and I will come to that point later, and that will inevitably compromise international agreements and obligations so as to manage potentially only five offenders. No one is underplaying the severity of the offending of some of those people, but it is a very peculiar and we think unacceptable way to endeavour to address, to manage, the potential release of those people. We are contemplating legislation, a whole raft of provisions, for very few people, as I have said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe already have at our disposal a range of provisions to manage these people. We have mechanisms to manage the risk that they may present at the point when their sentence is complete, and I have yet to hear a really compelling argument or to see particularly powerful evidence that the existing provisions are inadequate to meet the requirements of public safety around this very, very small number of people who may potentially be released into the community. Again, I would look to the regulatory impact statement and reflect, indeed, on the outcome of the Stewart Murray Wilson example. The regulatory impact statement tells us that \u201CIn all jurisdictions where very high risk offenders are released into the community the police play a major role in preventing reoffending by \u2026 deploying \u2026 resources in the surveillance and interception of these offenders. The resulting detection of breaches of orders and notification requirements, or minor offending, usually then results in the offender being prosecuted and returned to prison.\u201D Clearly, that is exactly the case of Mr Stewart Wilson, who is now back in prison because he failed to comply with the very strict conditions that were imposed on him. That is, I think, an example that shows that existing provisions are adequate to the cause, or that we have the wit and the capacity to ensure that there is an acceptable level of public safety around the potential release of this very, very small number of offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe point has been made about international examples, and, again, we can look to the regulatory impact statement, which is a very useful document. It actually indicates that there are four Australian states that have similar provisions for detention or very, very strict supervision orders placed primarily on sex offenders at the end of their finite sentences. Indeed, they may be detained in prison indefinitely or for a renewable, finite period. We are told that the United Nations Human Rights Committee has already determined that each of those orders breaches the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. We are going a step beyond what the Australian states have done. Inevitably, we will be taken to task and found in breach of those selfsame UN civil and political rights agreements to which we are signatories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are told that this legislation is not intended to be punitive and that it is simply protective. Holding that thought, I fail to see how the provisions of this legislation are not punitive. I would like to just list the conditions\u2014what is possible in terms of the ongoing detention of people who have completed their finite sentences. These people will clearly be further denied their liberty, their freedom of movement\u2014a most fundamental right of human beings. We must acknowledge that their liberty will be denied them. People may be prevented from sending or receiving written communications under the provisions of this legislation. There may be restrictions on phone calls. They may be unable to make calls or may have their calls very seriously restricted or monitored. They may be prevented from receiving visits or communicating orally with people, according to the management plan under which they will be placed. They may be subject to searches within the usual confines of the so-called residence any time they leave the prison precinct or come back to it, and those searches can include strip searches. They may be placed in seclusion, which I think is a gentle name that endeavours to differentiate between it and solitary confinement, which is what it would amount to. We got told that they may be constrained\u2014that mechanical restraints may be used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI invite anyone to explain to me how those provisions are not punitive. How does that differ in any substantial way from a conventional prison sentence? All that this legislation does, really, is elongate, extend, the finite sentence that has been applied to these people. The legislation does, in fact, allow for the offender to be simply kept in a prison, rather than under the disguise of one of these so-called residences. The proposition is that this legislation is not punitive, that it will not impugn human rights, and that it will not contravene our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Despite, dare I say it, the rather convoluted semantics of the Attorney-General\u2019s report, inevitably, this will be found in breach if it goes ahead in its current form. The Greens do not find this acceptable and will be opposing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022abd862537c4a40108c4c1fb355c8e1b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abd862537c4a40108c4c1fb355c8e1b9\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am constantly concerned when I hear that member David Clendon talk about the issues and the rights of the offender over the rights of the victim. He actually turned round and said that this was electioneering. Well, if we have gone out and we have said to ordinary Kiwis, to New Zealanders, that we want to embark on a comprehensive programme of reform to protect communities, to prevent crime, and to put victims first, and if that is electioneering, then I am not sure what that speech from that member was actually all about. Ordinary, everyday New Zealanders want to know and ensure that their safety is actually paramount in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EWhat I am also looking forward to after this first reading is this Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill going to the Justice and Electoral Committee, and hearing submissions. I would like that member to look into the eyes of the Sensible Sentencing Trust\u2019s Mr Garth McVicar and of the family members and tell them that the rights of offenders are far more important than the rights of the victims, and that all the things we are doing in this legislation are punitive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EThis legislation is important. We know that the number of offenders we are talking about is between only five and 12, but the impact that they have on the community is huge\u2014the trauma, the tragedy. All of these things we know are significant in a community. It can never be understated, Mr Clendon, that what we are trying to do here is to put the rights of the victims first and ensure that our communities are safe. This is absolutely not punitive, as the member has talked about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ELet us address some of these issues. First of all, he talked about the concern that the bill is setting a precedent for this type of detention order. This is a civil detention order. There are civil detention orders that are already used as part of other regimes that protect the community from harm. These include detaining people with highly contagious diseases or individuals who have mental health or intellectual disability issues that make them a danger to others or themselves. The bill does not affect the functioning of other civil detention regimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003ESecondly, Mr Clendon talked about the bill overriding offenders\u2019 rights. The bill appropriately balances the right of New Zealanders to be free from almost certain serious harm versus the liberty rights of offenders who have served their sentence. By holding individuals in a civil detention facility and allowing them a high degree of autonomy, where possible, the system responds proportionately to the legitimate objective of protecting citizens from almost certain harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EMr Clendon also talked about the legislation being inconsistent with human rights legislation and international obligations. Let us just spell this out really clearly. Public protection orders are civil orders, not criminal punishments, and their sole purpose is to protect the community from near certain future harm. I would like to know what that member of Parliament who is here today would say if an offender had gone out and sexually and violently harmed a member of our community. What would be the speech from that member? What would be the response to the family members? What would be the response to the community? What would be the response to New Zealand as a whole? Would he stand up and say: \u201CLet\u2019s look at this legislation. It has been punitive to the offender.\u201D? Well, I guarantee that that member would not do that. He can say all the words that he wants, but this legislation is important to protect the rights of ordinary New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003EI look forward to this legislation going to the select committee, and to hearing the submissions. I look forward to sitting down and actually being alongside that member and hearing the submissions from people like Garth McVicar who talk about the importance of balancing the rights of individuals to protect them against the trauma and tragedy of violent and sexual offending on New Zealanders as a whole. This is good legislation. I think it is important, and it is well balanced. I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u002269b48ee6cd5348f08c9d8682b57f5ecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b48ee6cd5348f08c9d8682b57f5ecd\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will support the Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Bill going to the Justice and Electoral Committee. The bill must achieve a very difficult balance between protecting citizens from serious sexual or violent harm and the right of those affected to be subject to the least restrictive form of detention that is practicable. It must also ensure adequate oversight of detention through regular reviews by a review panel and the High Court, independent inspector and Ombudsman visits, and an annual report to Parliament. There is a high level of public expectation for legislation of this kind. What we must do and what the select committee must do is get the legislation right, and that comes down to the detail of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI would first like to refer to the opinion expressed by the Attorney-General that the bill is not inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990. The issue is whether these orders would amount to further punishment of sentenced offenders or a regime of civil committal, as provided for in other legislation. I agree that the bill incorporates the key safeguards necessary for a civil committal regime, and that it will therefore be New Zealand Bill of Rights Act compliant. Whether the bill as introduced includes adequate safeguards at each of the stages of the making, administration, and review\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3a566d7eb334fa0bea1c0ee6bbdbdff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3a566d7eb334fa0bea1c0ee6bbdbdff\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but the time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309174146edb234ca411999e5519fba8a3ed0000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"