"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc30b63cce1a47d6bb02774d7f636093\u0022\u003EWednesday, 25 September 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002296deafb4db72448eb9ff42b1837db936\u0022\u003EWednesday, 25 September 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc8c74eff0cc4d50b45e9445c38011eb\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1340df4968541d98b77171f696bed40\u0022\u003ECanadian First Nations Delegation, Acknowledgment\u2014Leave to Move Motion Without Notice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd3d70562afe4a4dbfc139ee1f741448\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd3d70562afe4a4dbfc139ee1f741448\u0022\u003EMEKA WHAITIRI (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to move a non-debatable motion without notice to welcome a delegation of First Nations people from Canada who are in the gallery today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce89a967fa8e414e8fee9b25aae0857e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce89a967fa8e414e8fee9b25aae0857e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7d71e92a8bb4e13b8ef923800581e25\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262cf89392bb04ecfa55ef14099859ca9\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022233a3b427f7f4f8d91e8a8605e77009c\u0022\u003EEconomic Programme\u2014Support for New Zealand Families\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u002204b512e20de742ff9db2192b4c4a4fdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204b512e20de742ff9db2192b4c4a4fdd\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aec749dcca44472d9a8e6560f8ceed93\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! I had a significant number of complaints yesterday about the level of noise through question time. We cannot allow it to be at the same level as it was yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00224fa9c50941304115a1e14770c3cf77ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fa9c50941304115a1e14770c3cf77ea\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How is the Government supporting New Zealand families through the economic recovery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00222a72a6c1093b4cb39a0b7d06a10433ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a72a6c1093b4cb39a0b7d06a10433ac\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Despite large deficits, the Government is committed to supporting families through uncertain times. For instance, households earning less than $60,000 per annum, which is around 50 percent of all households, pay no net tax; that is, they get more in income and accommodation support, paid parental leave, Working for Families, and welfare support than they pay in tax. We have also focused assistance on those most in need, with $190 million for the next stage of welfare reforms to get people off benefits and into work; $100 million insulating 215,000 homes; $41 million extra for early childhood education for the most vulnerable; $24 million for rheumatic fever prevention, which is, again, focused on the most vulnerable families; and the KickStart Breakfast in schools programme, which is, again, focused on the most vulnerable families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022965db784b8454a9f865b02c0d46d0125\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: What changes has the Government made to income tax rates and other taxes, to help families get ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245902632b4d94df6be6de9fa4523392d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The 2010 tax switch reduced taxes on work and savings and increased taxes on consumption and property speculation across all income levels. That 2010 Budget also provided for better targeting of Working for Families. Two-thirds of the value of the income tax cuts in 2010 went to reducing the bottom two tax rates. Someone on the average wage of around $50,000 was immediately $15 a week better off as a result of the tax changes. Three-quarters of taxpayers now face a top personal rate of 17.5 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d41a6dba20e4d6a86ab83024cb9283f\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: What effect is the Government\u2019s approach having on inequality, and how is the Government working to ensure households get a fair deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022351ad03cc60a4df3bddf2595d91f4543\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Ministry of Social Development tracks household incomes, and reports that income inequality is falling slightly after peaking in the mid-2000s, so we are starting to undo some of the damage done by the previous Labour Government to New Zealand\u2019s equality. There are a variety of reasons for this. The tax and redistribution system favours the bottom 50 percent of households. Our investments in welfare, health, and education have been focused on the most disadvantaged. Whereas the previous Government focused on subsidies to people on middle incomes, we are focusing on solving long-running problems of welfare dependency, poor educational achievement, ill health, and family violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea44966bf744002be14a652ab21ba65\u0022\u003EJami-Lee Ross\u003C/span\u003E: What progress is the Government making in supporting more people into work, improving health care, and education outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022932f784d2e794c63ab9546657fa99468\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member does not really need to ask this question, because you can track progress by going to the Government website and looking at the Better Public Services results. As at 30 June this year, the number of people continuously receiving a working-age benefit for over 12 months has fallen by almost 3,000. In March this year 89 percent of 8-month-olds had been immunised, and M\u0101ori immunisation rates are for the first time ever as high as mainstream immunisation rates, and, in fact, in some parts of the country are higher than among P\u0101keh\u0101 children. The proportion of 18-year-olds with National Certificate of Educational Achievement level 2 has increased to 77 percent from 74 percent the previous year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d813231224d64f13b503825c294f5188\u0022\u003EHawke\u2019s Bay Water Management\u2014Departmental Submissions on Plan Change Proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00226d0353906dcb46f1961f1e0640063d87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d0353906dcb46f1961f1e0640063d87\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Has he or his Office sought an assurance from the Minister of Conservation that he did not know about the existence of the draft submission prepared by the Department of Conservation in early July relating to the Ruataniwha Dam, before 17 September 2013; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00222f929a699730401182cbb165487a41ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f929a699730401182cbb165487a41ec\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E No; an assurance was not required, because the Minister had advised this House in his answers to a number of questions that he had not seen the leaked draft submission until Tuesday, 17 September, and I take the Minister at his word. The Minister was aware that the Department of Conservation was working on a submission. He was not aware of the content of the leaked draft submission until Tuesday, 17 September. My office was advised by the Minister\u2019s office on Tuesday, 17 September that the leaked draft submission was never sent to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad9c4c5142a452f85e1acddeb12bf67\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he take at his word the Minister of Conservation\u2019s statement from Tuesday last week: \u201CI did not know that this draft document even existed until this morning.\u201D; if that were just proven to be incorrect, what action will he as Prime Minister take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b0ad882ea2940ef853899a763f392e8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I take the member at his word. It would not be unusual for a Minister to ask to see a departmental submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88ef273b6d243f08c00ea75e4c00817\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister concerned about reports that an official working on the Department of Conservation\u2019s Ruataniwha Dam submissions has resigned as a result of his Minister\u2019s involvement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b4d80994064b8fa1cc1780e8cf7979\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There is no evidence that that claim is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d3f4e66ace472e952eb618714d1022\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly why does the Prime Minister think that the Director-General of the Department of Conservation or senior managers would email senior staff that the Minister is \u201Cconcerned\u201D with the submission, given that his Minister said in answer to whether he had raised concerns: \u201CDid I give an indication? No, I did not.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdc4f0a28834a69b78a270f016ca055\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister receives weekly departmental reports. This is not unusual. In that departmental report, I am advised, there were two sentences in it regarding lodging a submission in the name of the director-general. The Minister asked to see a final submission before it was made. On Wednesday, 31 July the Minister received a full briefing on the final submission. The leaked draft report appeared on Tuesday, 17 September, which was the first time the Minister had seen the leaked draft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0d7fca2543943a7963dbdb2ba9286ea\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement \u201CI expect high standards from my Ministers \u2026 if they don\u2019t meet the standards I set then obviously I will take action if necessary\u201D; if so, will he ask the Minister of Conservation, Nick Smith, to resign if it is proven that he indicated to the Department of Conservation that it should change its submission, or if it is shown that his statements to this House or to the media are incorrect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f426a7d53f48a6bf1af772ec3410ed\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Whatever the details the member thinks he is going to release or divulge, I would hope that at the same time he will divulge the final version of his CV.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229671b3ffc12c4df4b2f4a70940cfad01\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that a draft submission from the Ministry for Primary Industries expressed concerns over the economics of the Ruataniwha Dam but that the final submission reversed this finding; if so, why was this 180-degree turn made, and which Ministers and/or their staff were involved in any way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235581ecee34446b8bcfca261a7ca76de\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have no advice on that matter. I think the member can be reassured, though, that all issues around the Ruataniwha Dam will be dealt with by the statutory processes that apply to a large project that has environmental and economic impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221ac26c4a749425ab9be0ce598edcede\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Acting Prime Minister explain to the House how it was possible for Nick Smith to say that he did not know the submission even existed until 17 September, yet the briefing note from 29 July includes a discussion of the very same submission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee2c6e1583f4614b3faefb5b6f50512\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, as Dr Smith has answered in the House, the note on 29 July said that the department was making a submission. He then asked to see the final submission, which is a legitimate, perfectly normal activity by any Minister of any department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7cae207d1414e4a96517342aeda7b6f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister explain how it is possible to have a discussion about a submission\u2014and the evidence shows that there was a discussion on 29 July\u2014yet the Minister says that he did not know that the submission even existed until 17 September? How is it possible to have a discussion about a submission you do not know exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291887dc4d915424cb0915b28df6b25cd\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as I understand it, the departmental weekly report said that the department was making a submission. The Minister had not seen that submission. When the department showed him a submission a couple of days later, as the final submission, he saw that submission. The draft the member is referring to appeared some time later on 17 September, which was the leaked draft submission, not the final submission. It does not matter how hard the member digs, there is no conspiracy here. It is pretty straightforward. The Minister asked to see a submission and he saw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519cc441a73d4757baecca1850852c6f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that it may seem a fine point, and so you may not agree with my point of order, but there is a difference between whether you have seen a copy of it or whether you know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de5a044569654c51853946563687ac67\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, I have heard quite enough. The member can use further supplementary questions if he wants further detail from the Acting Prime Minister. The question was whether the Prime Minister can explain, and the Acting Prime Minister attempted to explain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b023c327f934cdf8de0c22d46fd41de\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Justice Sector\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022 data-id=\u0022a884281e61e745b2bb3660161345b4ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a884281e61e745b2bb3660161345b4ae\u0022\u003EALFRED NGARO (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What recent Better Public Services results for the Justice Sector has she announced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00220468d0be67b14ceba16c2d6d5d1470e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220468d0be67b14ceba16c2d6d5d1470e9\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The latest results to June 2013 show the justice sector is well on track to meet all of its Better Public Services targets by 2017. Total crime is down by 12 percent, violent crime is down by 8 percent, and reoffending is down by 11 percent. Youth crime has reduced by a huge 19 percent. As a result, the Better Public Services target for reduction in youth crime has been reset to 25 percent by 2017. I am delighted that the justice sector is working so well together, and I thank the Ministry of Justice, the New Zealand Police, and the Department of Corrections for their achievements and commitment to reducing crime, making New Zealand a safer place than it ever was under a previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b799934e17b4853b8b404767986d3d4\u0022\u003EAlfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: How will the revised youth crime Better Public Services target assist in further reducing youth crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feba5f055e8b4262953b9dbfb9d05091\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Targeting youth crime is a major focus for this Government. We know that the earlier young people begin offending, the greater the chances are that they will reoffend and the harder it is to turn them away from a life of crime. The Government has a range of initiatives aimed at ensuring young people get the best possible opportunity to lead positive, fulfilled lives. This includes improving health and education responses for at-risk youth, improving school attendance and engagement, and improving youth mental health pathways. The youth crime target was an interim target of 5 percent and measures the number of youth appearing in the Youth Court. These are the most difficult young reoffenders, for whom family group conferences and other programmes have not worked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022695678cf-542a-4616-9e0a-86990caec192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e373c118f149faa7e45be805308411\u0022\u003EAlfred Ngaro\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives will help the justice sector reduce crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8877607dec64e1d9a76c132916338c3\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The justice sector board, made up of chief executives of justice, police, and corrections, are continually monitoring progress against our justice sector targets of reducing crime, reducing violent crime, reducing youth crime, and reducing reoffending. Across the justice sector, supporting work is under way, including: Addressing the Drivers of Crime, Prevention First, Policing Excellence, improved corrections rehabilitation and reintegration programmes, alcohol and other drug treatment courts, the Hutt Valley Innovation Project, and expanding safe@home, to name just a few.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4d1b565ae7143b2978bd0b8d736dfea\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards\u2014Resourcing and Service Delivery \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00226a104e0b1b0a401f88ca9bb3725582db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a104e0b1b0a401f88ca9bb3725582db\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has the increase in health funding for 2013/14 been sufficient to stop cuts in health services and staffing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002201e77f86dc8a48a6b8d69161efacd864\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201e77f86dc8a48a6b8d69161efacd864\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The increase in available health funding for this year and for the next 4 years, averaging around $400 million a year, has actually been sufficient to improve, not reduce front-line services and staffing, like the 2,700 more nurses and 1,300 more doctors employed in our public hospitals. The Government is, however, very aware that there are always pressures on providers, such as on some general practices offering low-cost doctors visits to some in our most vulnerable communities. Consequently, although we have already increased the very low-cost access scheme subsidy to these practices by $11 million over the last 5 years\u2014that is, by 33 percent\u2014it is clear that some are finding it difficult to remain viable, and later on this afternoon the Government will be announcing an increase of a further $16 million over 4 years, or an 8 percent increase, to help these practices out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e46681601834285bc026836e6a2acc9\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: If district health boards have sufficient funding, why has Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board now confirmed it is cutting mental health charge nurses in mental health units by 50 percent, why has it told staff that it intends to slash the numbers of mental health administrators by 14, and why is it removing cars from public health and community nurses because of \u201Ccontinuing cost pressures coupled with lower funding growth\u201D ?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224656565c5dac4b61a4903c2097714c2f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board is continuing to invest more money in its mental health services, and that would certainly meet with the fact that we put an extra $31 million into the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board in this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dbed5482d44488c92e3992f3e730725\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: If the funding is sufficient, why is the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board proposing to cut 10 doctors from the emergency department, not for clinical or quality reasons but to save money; and does this not make a mockery of his letter of expectation to district health boards where he said they need to \u201Cimprove clinical staff retention\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246450a4da27846c29f72a26694a03d51\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: This is sort of what we have come to expect from this member, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d131a19970d341f1bbeb7322f90d740f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a straight question. There is no need to have the beginning of his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383c876365d246eba7fc27cf046cfb36\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I agree. Would the Minister just answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628b202fe8a0427f9750b7803c8469e7\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is there is a consultation that will see that staffing mix at the Waitemat\u0101 emergency department change to reflect the staffing mix at Auckland - Counties Manukau. But I cannot believe that the Opposition would ask a question about the North Shore\u2019s Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board emergency department when under its watch old people waited for 3 days on hospital trolleys under bright florescent lights and they do not do that any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648a42a081a54a34a8bd3d9eee40f88a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That answer is quite sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dff419937bf4285a834454f8df9f0c8\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: What progress is being made to improve health services on the West Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bcfafa5380b4ef9956906f8095d79eb\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to advise the member that later this afternoon the Government will announce that it has given the green light for a brand new West Coast hospital to be built at Greymouth, at an estimated cost of around $60 million. This new development will replace Grey Base Hospital with new wards, an emergency department, and new operating theatres. It will also include an integrated family health centre that will co-locate general practice on the Grey Base Hospital site. The Grey Base Hospital\u2019s facilities have significant seismic issues, so this announcement is important for the 32,000 people who live on the West Coast and it gives them confidence in the future of their health services. Site work is expected to begin late next year, with the new hospital and facilities to be completed by the end of 2016. Even in the most difficult of economic times, this Government has found $60 million for that member\u2019s electorate\u2019s hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022105d9369dee648c9894e32c662b18d1e\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, can he guarantee that with the building of the new Greymouth base hospital, Reefton Hospital will not be closed and patients shifted to Greymouth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e56dfdc82e94ce7af1bcda5c5d7ed0c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: What I can tell that member is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022413bd4bc66aa49be8a7d15e064cecffa\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daef0bd71f8a448295d2097097b24878\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I give this assurance to the people of Greymouth. We are putting $60 million in, and once more I can say that there will be a further announcement this afternoon on a further investment on the West Coast, and I say to the member \u201CWait for that\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2ac137c14e4ab985375bc40288ecff\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd3b406ba10436f8366c8fa99b955b1\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Give up, old girl.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f8d9ef5568e4623b8bff7d3fd561e2d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon, Attorney-General? Did you hear that, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5b4ca4f6d84e46a6db96270b77dba2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That type of interjection is totally unhelpful to the order of this House. Would the honourable member start\u2014[Interruption] Order! Would the honourable member start her question again. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d051f88c8bd047ae979b33c44c058ad5\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: He just did it again, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668d2dc762524ef08931b2917a578285\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not catch where that interjection came from, but\u2014[Interruption] Order! We are getting to the stage now where, unfortunately, I am going to be asking members who constantly interject to leave. That is a warning I am giving to all members on both sides of this House. I ask the Hon Annette King to continue with her line of questioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fee5daa9fc864e4498c6cf49a61c05b3\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the emergency department at Waitakere Hospital is being discussed at a closed board session today; if so, will he guarantee that the emergency services at this hospital will not be compromised by a lack of funding and staffing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece238298cb448bb8ae620d0c9ccdbd3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board\u2019s budget has increased by $30 million this year. There are 268 more nurses and 114 more doctors. What I can say regarding this Government\u2019s record with the Waitakere emergency department is that we have improved that service beyond whatever existed under the previous Labour Government, which is opposite. We now have 24-hour emergency department services at Waitakere Hospital, far more than that party opposite ever delivered to those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022445f1dbf129d43db9764d132a9309285\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Did he raise the amount of funding Waitemata District Health Board received when he phoned the chair and the chief executive officer to pressure them after being questioned about proposed cuts in Parliament 2 weeks ago, and did they tell him that under his watch the additional funding this board has received in 2013-2014 is half what it received in 2007-2008, which might account for its current financial situation? He might like to have a look at this graph, which shows that the level of increased funding he is crowing about is now halved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b74aa597b00c45d1a1a40248d08f1c62\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I just have to say that I am glad the member has admitted finally that this Government increases health funding, because she constantly paints the picture that we have reduced health funding. We have increased it year on year, by an average of $500 million. I can tell this to the people of Waitemat\u0101: because of our investment in a 24-hour emergency department at Waitakere and tens of millions of dollars in a new emergency department at North Shore, they are getting faster and better emergency department care than was ever offered when that member was the Minister of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608d7fd9b63d427fb4fb0afa1728c005\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the Minister of Health\u2019s letter of expectation, which is not readily available, saying that he wants district health boards to improve their staff retention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb81f11147f488c89bdfdfe3fce8a99\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table an expectation letter from the Minister. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270197a78b9e94f19945b52f269e3112a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the consultation document from Waitemata District Health Board on mental health services, of 26 August this year, which states that cost pressures and lower funding growth are the reason for cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3ba3a9b82974b90a3d2a8d181013cc6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is that document freely available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c21e583e99428680952aff2bb2810d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not available, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c8c0cc53f7847d2a371dcc3c0b6ead0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the consultation document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222db9139150246d78c5f835f687463b1\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a graph of additional funding per year at Waitemata District Health Board\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146bfc10bd4f48bda4512626351d1070\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Is that the graph the member was using?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3726a5d18904a7ab83b23fb01f0c4d4\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: It is. Here is the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c6690b7f524d05834149ba55d76d4b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not prepared to put that leave. [Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd4c4e2d2054d259610bccc1b9898f3\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I please know why you would not let me table a graph that comes from district annual plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f317bef9d012495aa7206c6922fad1cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to catch up with the member and deal with her later. It is a Speaker\u2019s ruling. If the member is seeking leave to table a graph that has been prepared for a political point, it is not\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6efa5023bff4c86bd2590059c6822b2\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The graph in question comes from the Waitemata District Health Board planning department and from its annual planning process, so it has not been prepared for any purpose other than for the Waitemata District Health Board, and I think you should put the leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a9f0d5e7914a8d87a641f31eeb5ea2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have already ruled that I am not putting the leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8c3c0fe7e64073af64bc8a8044511d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022197e2184233d4558a25a2c34affc5c85\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078316bd7d0748908b91031be2561ff0\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: No, I want to table another document. I seek leave to table an email sent to John Key, Campbell Live, and myself from a constituent from North Shore about the lack of proper care at North Shore Hospital because doctors and nurses have said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c0347e2fc144dc8ad3b7c668322c6f0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that particular email. Is there objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf64f1f4686042fb9eeabaa8494a9be6\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do think we need some clarity from you around what the basis of the ruling is. I accept that there may be a Speaker\u2019s ruling that we are not aware of, but it would be good to know because there will be other occasions we want to table documents like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022035cc75281884a39af37785e2251c172\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There will be, and I suggest the member look at a page full of Speaker\u2019s rulings 148.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5078093d5dc454da22c8eab4de3e3ae\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. A page full of rulings will have about half a dozen different reasons. I think what my colleague was asking was for the reason\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b092a079fb6e452584f87554cc9ad0d4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member now is disputing my ruling, which will lead to disorder. There are a number of rulings there. I am suggesting he read them all, which would help him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231891ce8682449c586cd19b655c197b3\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e6328c05d74921acbcb7ed8c2ee85b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am on my feet. Is this a fresh point of order? Because any attempt to dispute a ruling that has been made\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299edae3b49fd425081497f05f95db3d8\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It is seeking clarity from you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200055fac80c640afbe8f865c1094ca44\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it is any way disputing a ruling I have made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b00241f3f39424d8dcfa09d939cbabb\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not disputing; it is seeking some clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022191fc17af6ea44e5b61b17880b4170c4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear from Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7dc4f918da54ce7a857e9af57a5bd03\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I am relatively familiar with the issue of the tabling of documents, because you will be aware that it was raised by the Standing Orders Committee of the last Parliament, and significant changes were made to reduce the scope for the tabling of documents. But the critical issue there was that the Standing Orders Committee did not want to in any way curtail a member\u2019s right to seek leave; it wanted to provided further clarity as to what was legitimately to be tabled. Information that is not publicly available is a legitimate thing for a member to seek to table, and the Standing Orders Committee was very careful not to overly restrict what sort of format that might be in. So I just want to get some clarity. Annette King indicated that the document she sought to table was not publicly available, or may not be available to members. The principle behind the tabling of documents is that it is in order to provide members with information that they might not have readily available to them, and it seems to me that without hearing a proper description of the document and without actually putting it to the House, we cannot judge whether the House would like to have that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a46e0eb23f334f079f76ea7c9292b08b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his point. The issue I think that may be of confusion to me is the authenticity of the document. If it has been prepared by the member for the point of making a political point, then I will not be prepared to put the leave. If the member rises and says that it has not been prepared by the member and is of an authentic source, the easiest way forward\u2014[Interruption] Order! The easiest way forward, once I am convinced of that, is that I will put the leave. I am asking the Hon Annette King for clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56584e7327c4731aa3330f206164777\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: The data is sourced from the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board\u2019s annual plans for 2008, 2009\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225253a6961a2c47239f9d2e30f5d68b87\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I did not ask where the data came from; I asked for the authenticity of the graph. Is it a graph that the member has prepared herself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fcbaede7d5f4aa7bdb2584cbdca6f48\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d548aabbf63e425697a19977c0c28eb6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is all I need to know, thank\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db9aa20cc754ef0b90530c17e8c23a5\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a point of clarification. Could you please explain to the House\u2014[Interruption] Well, I am entitled to ask for a point of order\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022908d04b8211f454f9b80da364f0bd2b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ba0dc15aff4f11afad8fc1e6bffcc8\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd998d4589444c0e94660ad25da75915\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please continue with her point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb7bac1d8a74bfb972f2bc22c30cc01\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Could you please explain to the House when sources of information that come from an independent source are a political item?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16e20bb8fa74845b54dd4ae815a08bb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! What we are talking about here is the tabling of a document that the member herself has prepared. I invited the shadow Leader of the House to have a look at Speakers\u2019 Rulings, and he should do so. If it has been prepared simply for the point of making a political point by the member, regardless of where the data has come from, I am not prepared to put that leave, and that is the end of the matter. If any member wants to question it further, I will have no choice but to ask that member to leave the Chamber. I call question No. 5, Dr Russel Norman. [Interruption] Order! I have called Dr Russel Norman. [Interruption] Would Chris Hipkins stand, withdraw, and apologise for that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb52c3914e24cbc9fdbdecc8e556fa9\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002298debae1980645fba2b237a76b235856\u0022\u003EHawke\u2019s Bay Water Management\u2014Minister\u2019s Involvement and Meeting with Officials\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00221e767bbdc68e46d98944d1e2a4a82b20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e767bbdc68e46d98944d1e2a4a82b20\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What did he say in his meeting with officials on 29 July that led Department of Conservation Deputy Director-General Doris Johnston to write in an email later that day that he is \u201C\u2026 likely to query whether we leave it all to the EPA to consider\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dba17b04695142d996544e187ad08c08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dba17b04695142d996544e187ad08c08\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Conservation: Nothing. The Minister did express concern that he did not have enough information about the submission, which was due to be lodged on Friday, 2 August, and asked to see a copy of the submission before it was lodged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f8765b5ef7b47f199bf13966fc56ffc\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: So are we to understand that Deputy Director-General Doris Johnston wrote in an email to other senior Department\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9042411c8594e50bc8b94f1d3af8cc8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Will the member carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231c1b805fb0341a7bc61ab4a307ca1f8\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: So are we to understand that Deputy Director-General Doris Johnston wrote an email to other senior managers within the Department of Conservation saying that the Hon Dr Nick Smith is \u201Clikely to query whether we leave it all to the EPA to consider.\u201D? Did she write that email in response to Mr Smith\u2019s saying nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e51a1df5095046ce86a17fa1da6b5f10\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. As Doris Johnston has said herself: \u201CThe concern was that he did not have enough information. We didn\u2019t have a long discussion on the ins and outs that might be in it. We just talked about him wanting some more information and he gave no direction.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cf937dd8da7475fa7515273a41436b3\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: So when Deputy Director-General Doris Johnston wrote this email to all these other senior managers within the Department of Conservation saying that Nick Smith was \u201Clikely to query whether we leave it all to the EPA to consider.\u201D\u2014that is, that they drop their submission\u2014did she write that email for random reasons, no reason at all, or just because she felt like writing the email?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc4341992a548b785e077a491a74913\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: You would have to ask Mrs Johnston to explain her motivations for those emails, other than the fact that I could say that what she has said is \u201Cthe Minister did not play any role in my decision-making\u201D. And in respect of matters in that note, she has made it clear that \u201Cthe concern was that the Minister did not have enough information. We did not have a long discussion on the ins and outs that might be in it. We just talked about him wanting some more information and he gave no direction.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227df86b66c242448ab36ec60d516a3af7\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is it standard practice for senior officials within the Department of Conservation to write emails talking about the Minister of Conservation and saying that the Minister of Conservation is likely to query whether the department should just leave it all up to the Environmental Protection Authority and not make a submission\u2014is it standard practice in the Department of Conservation for senior officials to write such emails in response to the Minister saying nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226429290307574197b6b600789f67cb7a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I would not be in a position to be able to answer that question, particularly as a Minister in Nick Smith\u2019s stead today. But what I would point to are the comments that Doris Johnston herself has made publicly, where she refers to that line in the email as saying that \u201Cthe concern was that he did not have enough information. We did not have a long discussion on the ins and outs that might be in it. We just talked about him wanting some more information and he gave no direction.\u201D But, more important, is the comment that she made: \u201CThe Minister did not play any role in my decision-making.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2c7b15636b74127a5166f5ed23e7bcd\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Did Nick Smith find it difficult to have the conversation with Doris Johnston about the draft submission that the department was about to submit when Mr Smith says that he did not even know that this submission existed until 6 weeks later? How do you have a conversation about a submission without knowing that the submission exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc2ae7e1025545b989c29d77929adb0c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Because the note that he got with his weekly report is quite clear that the department was evaluating the proposed plan change and resource consents, and that a submission should be lodged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c73b4a441f4ebea2973dae4f2dfa48\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that in the document he has just been reading from, it actually says it is the department\u2019s preliminary view that a submission should be lodged on the plan change; if so, how is it possible for the Minister to claim he did not know that this draft submission existed when it is both in the briefing note, and, as he has just said, it was mentioned in the conversation that he had with his officials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b54e712f7275493a968a998ef4690ac4\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear that the Minister got a copy of the final submission on 31 July. He has made it publicly clear that he was unaware that there was an earlier draft, which he became aware of after a Radio New Zealand National report this month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb803d2fde4a486181eb42dfeed1218f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that departmental officials met about a week before 29 July or thereabouts and had a significant discussion as to whether they should lodge the submission because they knew that it would be controversial, and they made a decision to continue to go ahead with the submission in spite of the fact that it would be controversial, and that the submission was withdrawn only after Nick Smith intervened in the process on 29 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d247bf0cc14dfea5bbf43852e655d1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am disappointed that that member thinks that Doris Johnston is a liar. She has been a loyal public servant\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252370df324aa4ddbb2109c6aac05d5d5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That does not help answer the question. As a way forward I am going to ask Dr Russel Norman to repeat that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b887f54aa3c4bf1ac6ca7b688ff761a\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that senior Department of Conservation officials met about a week before the 29 July meeting with the Minister and decided to proceed with the submission, even though they knew it would be controversial? Is he aware of that fact and that the submission was withdrawn only after the meeting with the Minister on 29 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ca7399fc81433a9b9b121bcacfd21c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister in his stead today, I am not able to answer specifically whether the Minister knew of that meeting. But what I do know is that the premise of that member\u2019s question is that what Mrs Johnston has been saying is not true, because that member is saying that Nick Smith influenced the decision making. Mrs Johnston says: \u201CThe Minister did not play any role in my decision making.\u201D My understanding as Minister answering this question today is that Doris Johnston has been a thoroughly professional and loyal public servant to both sides of this House. I am disappointed that her word is being denounced by that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227376c49bc5d34c16b176518816078157\u0022\u003EEconomy, Rebalancing\u2014Productivity\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00222a09cae3393644caa4eff86f5fa9e06e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a09cae3393644caa4eff86f5fa9e06e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Productivity Commission that the \u201Cgrowing gap in labour productivity has been the main driver of an increasing disparity in GDP per capita between the two trans-Tasman economies,\u201D and given double-digit house price inflation in Auckland, doesn\u2019t this show the Government\u2019s efforts to rebalance the economy towards productive exports and jobs has failed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce818ba0785b466092edc833ec5c2966\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce818ba0785b466092edc833ec5c2966\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the second part of the question, no. The commission\u2019s full comment refers to New Zealand\u2019s relative decline since the mid-1970s. The Government understands those issues and has a programme in place of tax reform, upgrading educational achievement and skills training, building more infrastructure, rolling out ultra-fast broadband\u2014perhaps some 10 years ahead of when it would have turned up in the market\u2014and getting the Government back to surplus. We believe that this programme and hundreds of other initiatives will contribute to closing the productivity gap with Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ced467dbac4eaca29949970f5c9136\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he believe the Government\u2019s current economic settings are correct, when the Productivity Commission says that New Zealand\u2019s productivity performance shows no evidence of catching up to other countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af20c200fade453fbccaad371c38f89b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: We have looked at that evidence pretty hard, and we believe that the programme the Government has outlined will make a difference. I must say that in trying to turn round productivity decline dating back to the 1970s, it will take persistence over time, with sensible policies and public support. That is the recipe that this Government is following. We welcome suggestions from the retread economic spokespersons on the Opposition front bench that will assist in that project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba29ed3a729402aaa08793ae91fc50a\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: When did the New Zealand economy first show signs of imbalance in the current economic cycle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d65695a9274adf8bd7965c02ff4bbc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, between 2001 and 2007 house prices doubled. By 2007 first mortgage interest rates were at 10 percent. They are currently half of that. In the 5 years to 2008 public spending increased by 50 percent. The result of that was that in 2005 the export sector in New Zealand went into recession, when the rest of the globe was enjoying an economic boom. It was a pretty amazing achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb125be4268c44279cb67a4a8ce5bb08\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What is the outlook for the New Zealand economy and how does that compare to the situation in 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fba78aedb7342fdb0a3495534b5bdaf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The current economic outlook is for 2 to 3 percent growth over the next 3 years, with export growth of 2 to 3 percent, once the effects of the drought are over. The Government is expected to be in surplus in 2014-15. This compares favourably to the situation in 2006 to 2008, when the housing market was booming, first mortgage interest rates were at 10 percent, but the export sector had already been in recession for a couple of years. In the next 2 or 3 years New Zealand will be one of the fastest-growing developed economies and one of a handful in surplus, but there is a lot of work to do yet, particularly on productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a14b1427be6473da661a43d289fbd28\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Productivity Commission\u2019s report shows that the long hours New Zealanders work have not helped improve wages or productivity, will he support an amendment to the Employment Relations Act that would require employment agreements to have a clear indication of the hours that employees must work rather than the completely deregulated system we have now, where some workers are working dangerously long hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdf330dd618b4244b48387f16fdb0b19\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No workers should be put in the position where the hours of work they have are dangerous. If that is the situation, then their employers are breaching their statutory responsibilities. I know the member has, for instance, been supporting a campaign around the forestry industry, which I think has had some impact on that industry, that is positive for workers in reducing the dangers posed by long hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ef601ac908c4487822894702a1ac470\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What alternative economic proposals has he seen and what effect would those proposals have on productivity and the tradable sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad7130947a1341e583ec9222ab0e0418\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a number of proposals over recent weeks, which I think come from somewhere in the 1960s and 1970s, around how to try to legislate for a stronger economy, with higher taxes, more spending, and bigger Government. I have also seen a number of proposals to shut down the dairy industry, close down the smelter, prevent all mining, and stop any new irrigation, at the same time as people are proposing more jobs and regional development. It clearly does not make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56dac03cbd0494ab036956c35a8acc5\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the 2.5 percent decline in productivity recorded by Statistics New Zealand in the fishing and forestry industries since 2008\u2014the first productivity decline in those crucial regional sectors since records began\u2014is directly linked to his Government\u2019s cuts to regional training; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205166385d73e4d7e82bc48c4f40c9a49\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I certainly do not agree with that, although the reasons for that decline are not well understood. My colleague Minister Joyce and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment are doing a lot of sectoral work to understand changes in productivity. In respect of training schemes, we are still cleaning up the mess left by the last Government of billions of dollars of wasted spending\u2014misleading young New Zealanders that they were getting tradable skills when they were not. But the clean-up is almost over and help is on its way for those young New Zealanders who do want better skills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252fedce3843e410eb9855b9d9b791401\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How will he achieve his promise to close the wage gap with Australia, when the Productivity Commission says that under his current economic settings New Zealand\u2019s productivity performance shows no evidence of catching up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df4d4481487241c5b7b44474383f4a4a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, the Government has outlined its plan. It is all set out in detail in the Business Growth Agenda, which has been thoroughly discussed with business, with iwi, with tertiary institutions, and with industry groups. And if the member has another suggestion or two to add to the 300 policy initiatives, they are most welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ca32e55d274a71926a75f1a7b834fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25d10df108c475197f3dc10681a11f2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question? Oh, question No. 7. Very eager today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022504a279afa9446a18b77c2269d801381\u0022\u003EWh\u0101nau Ora\u2014Minister\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f660d6064cfc4ed082cf33838b9b508b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f660d6064cfc4ed082cf33838b9b508b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This\u2014[Interruption] Well, he is clearly finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022033e71f8fbc241d498c1f43e37afb861\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have now called the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002291f0403ac1ed47089cd2031c6e23298e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291f0403ac1ed47089cd2031c6e23298e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora: Does she stand by her answers to Oral Question No. 4 yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u00223f9315ac6c4143c0a487f470a2ef9b29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f9315ac6c4143c0a487f470a2ef9b29\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284183d3876d6459a96adcebd34fcdf2e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When she was asked yesterday, and I repeat, \u201CHas she ever offered resources and staff, such as report writers, to prepare Wh\u0101nau Ora commissioning agency bid documentation;\u201D, why did she answer \u201CNo.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022072d059e017c42769a86861c54159fdd\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Because that is the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765f6a3f50d949f780f963695936a842\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How could that possibly be the truth when she knew of funds being given to the National Hauora Coalition and when an Official Information Act document from Te Puni K\u014Dkiri supports that, showing that this money was \u201Cto enable the National Hauora Coalition to test the broader applicability of its key framework consistent with the Government\u2019s Wh\u0101nau Ora approach and, further, that this takes in Wh\u0101nau Ora outcomes, Wh\u0101nau Ora assessments, and Wh\u0101nau Ora case management.\u201D? How can her denial possibly be credible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e86dabcfe3ea40118cd28302869e86df\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters was very specific in his question yesterday. He asked whether I gave $500,000 plus expert help to the National Hauora Coalition to prepare its bid for Wh\u0101nau Ora money\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288dd3704c054489098310979b60e164c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb24e1d1cad54e129d18026b9a95e831\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Minister. I have a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022137f34caccb145ae8333e4a3a6483950\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You will recall that my first supplementary question recited the question of yesterday, which was the first supplementary question yesterday as well, and which went this way\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267d62cec584446c5bf15638017e1f5e2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am trying to hear the point of order, and it would be helpful if there was no objection or interjection during that point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2ae0d19c224ceabaa5f7751a762945\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: My supplementary questions are based on the first supplementary question today, as it was yesterday, which was whether she has ever offered resources and staff such as report writers to prepare etc., etc. That is what I want answered today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fcf51f855b543f8a3f7760dc0b28999\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member raised a supplementary question, and it began with \u201CHow can that possibly be the truth?\u201D. The Minister was answering that with a full explanation as to how that could possibly be the truth. If the member does not like that answer, do not raise a point of order; ask a further supplementary question. It is not for me to justify the answers given by Ministers in this House if the question has been addressed. Does the Hon Tariana Turia want to complete the answer, or has she done so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742ccf7226044886be73e22237f2ccd2\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the questions that the Rt Hon Winston Peters asked yesterday, I answered those questions exactly as they were, and I repeat those answers today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5fe8a06c88e4a79a2251cb5c624ff6f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if that is possibly true, why yesterday, immediately following question time, did she approach me and state her awareness that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri had paid $500,000 to the National Hauora Coalition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d3b85fe905d477a84702c508e580ef8\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s not the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227389f976ac314cfb943cd42a796b1753\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which was what she denied in answer to my second supplementary question yesterday, which was whether she has ever offered resources and staff? Everyone knows that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri is the funder of Wh\u0101nau Ora, and that is the problem. [Interruption] I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have got a Minister over here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0f40bacd0f84bb28f8d149f7fd15121\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4513a35e2274ac2835d9dcabb7a58a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri is the funder of Wh\u0101nau Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227038c8af90f54cc8b1e2bc649f8f794d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. [Interruption] Order! If the members want to stay for the balance of question time\u2014[Interruption] Would the member please resume his seat. What the member is raising there is not a point of order; it is a matter of debate or a matter for clarification. It is not a point of order to raise with the Speaker of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a73be693a6e84ace85c5dde5086bf2ba\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe084169a6cd41c1a9253753f481ffdb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee394c77df64deea7b9d0bea1b03dfe\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: This was my question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292aa7fd80df34b00af11208009859064\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I know full well what the question was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242842bcc296b4cf1a348c49ebd1d72c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Which was what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228ba514a9a674aabbde516bbff6ecc29\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You have asked the Minister to explain the answer yesterday compared with the information you are laying before the House now. That is the question. It is then for the Minister to answer. If the Minister addresses the question and the member then wants further clarification, the member does that with a further supplementary question, not by point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cde474beeb743a49a8a846d22e732aa\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister indulging in attempted semantics in respect of Wh\u0101nau Ora funding when she knows it is administered by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, but that does not admonish her from responsibility, and when, under the Official Information Act release just the other day, we have this circumstance of a contract for $500,000, as alleged by me, and then a further contract of $1,500 excluding GST on a private contract, as alleged by me? How can she possibly deny that she had knowledge as she told me outside and as these documents\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c72f6579af486a91c0a854cd831540\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Now the question is getting excessively long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2fb8283e95943ad844e7bc129cea609\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Peters asked me yesterday whether I gave $500,000 plus expert help to the National Hauora Coalition to prepare its bid for Wh\u0101nau Ora money. I did not give it $500,000 to prepare its bid for Wh\u0101nau Ora money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f1b1a4b3549490f993c76d918254b61\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister denying knowledge of her involvement, when the whole sets of contracts that I have referred to in my supplementary question about offering resources and staff, such as report writers\u2014two contracts referred to the total connectedness with the Wh\u0101nau Ora programme? Why is she trying to defy gravity here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c1b2fb57bc4970a6f88d5a5c9cf70a\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday the member said that I offered that not to the National Hauora Coalition but to the Iwi Leaders Forum, which was disputed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f107aed100d4f7abb325fc2ee45c35b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3ef0d0b1c04f299df57c5504abee03\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise again to the Minister. I have a point of order from the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a19d01301fe94dabb11cfc124fc7fcfa\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: This is the second attempt for me to get a Minister to refer to the question being asked. I did not refer to other supplementary questions from yesterday. I am referring to the specific one about resources and staff\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268bf09d8b04b43d2a9a131d4b4ec4a43\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! This is now one of the numerous attempts when the member is obviously not satisfied with the answer and he attempts to raise it as a point of order. He must use his supplementary questions. If he has got none left today, then he will have another go tomorrow. Provided the question is addressed, then I am no longer responsible for the answer that is given. The member must solve his problem by asking a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202128c21a5f24387ba01ce3893bf3b57\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is not a question of whether I am satisfied with the answer. My point of order is that the Minister has made no attempt to answer the specific question, which is what you should be ruling on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd4ace83ba2d462da7c3e5e49ec970de\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have ruled on it. I said that the Minister has made a genuine attempt to address the question. Question No. 8, Phil Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234238d50807e49b89e039106c4655821\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ff2944353d5494e9a5ebc02763ff59c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I apologise to the member. Is this a fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8bbe1e4741241a9a72fc109ff68ffa4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it is a fresh point of order. That is why I am raising it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a1de4e9a78145c4b317b2cf4da6c68e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. We will have a fresh point of order from the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b856565fc5034defbdf433b6fa245b54\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Official Information Act report from Te Puni K\u014Dkiri dated 3 September, which shows the two contracts administered under Wh\u0101nau Ora funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16af18b1ed84e59b72679e9bc0383fb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that particular report. Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none. It can be so tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d356aff9a284169a317c2cf4bac4589\u0022\u003EHousing, Affordable\u2014First-home Buyers and Mortgages\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00220bb5f6b631e344f88f75083444030663\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bb5f6b631e344f88f75083444030663\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What does he say to the almost 80 percent of people looking to buy their first homes who say they cannot afford the 20 percent deposit or will need family help because of LVR lending limits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002296e8b157501545a583b8c3f4e2c74d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296e8b157501545a583b8c3f4e2c74d51\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Housing: First, it is easy to understand the frustration of first-home buyers. It has always been difficult to get into a first home. We would say to those first-home buyers that we will do everything we can to give them a fair shot at the dream of homeownership. In particular, they will have a better chance for an affordable home if we get a more flexible and faster growing supply of new houses on the ground, and if we follow policies that prevent interest rates going to 10 percent, as they were under the previous Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f74d8918e52140418bdea4fa9b852dc6\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he fail to advise the Minister of Finance that loan-to-value ratio lending limits would have negative consequences for first-home buyers, before that Minister signed off the memorandum of understanding with the Reserve Bank that triggered the loan-to-value ratios?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa4f79f573a4dcebde83fdac7634117\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: First, the member is wrong. The loan-to-value ratio rules were triggered by the Reserve Bank Governor using the tool kit that has actually always been available to him. The member continues to misrepresent that, which I take as the Labour Party being keen to remove the independence of the Reserve Bank. I invite those members to explain to the public of New Zealand that they will now run interest rate policy, banking supervision, and financial stability. I cannot remember what the rest of the question was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277bcf78aad9948258d44def5f2703a3e\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was listening to the Minister\u2019s answer and for the vast bulk of the Minister\u2019s answer he was outlining what he thought the Labour Party\u2019s policy was and inviting the Labour Party to explain its policy. Since when has that been an acceptable form of an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ee5a1c5d5904983ad58b0e4510ca743\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There was a portion where he certainly did that. [Interruption] Order! I took the answer to be an explanation around the continued independence of the Reserve Bank. In my opinion, that question had two parts to it. He certainly addressed one part of it. The member has further supplementary questions, if he wants to use them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022263b3fb4e12b4f80a5240ecb95d29698\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to seek some clarification from you. Is it your view that when the Minister does what he did there, when he went into a long part of his answer on matters for which he is not responsible, you want us to take points of order? Is that your position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5ddc06817444dfe9699803cf4134dba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. If the Minister is attempting to address the second part of the question, that seems to me to be perfectly satisfactory. The Minister said at the end that he had forgotten the first part of the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af5a590905c34d09bc2a6dfe07e0b33e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I can answer it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc8844c973ce42b2bdb7fcc89608ff1f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and if the member wants that raised, in the normal course of events I would have expected the member to say that he wanted the first part answered. The difficulty the member gets into is when he raises a supplementary question with two parts. In the meantime, I have heard an interjection from the Hon Bill English that he now does recall the first part, so I think the best way forward on this occasion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf3902db8ba4c11af51b4d5a7364cc2\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll do it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f9e813a07b41d69ffa8e4778e1ca6e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014no\u2014is to allow the Minister to stand and answer the first part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c0553fa43246759570d94dc0ee715a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Housing did advise the Minister of Finance of that fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264779535a903420986157c43ad1772e3\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Did he advise the Minister of Finance that not seeking advice from Treasury on the impact on first-home buyers of the loan-to-value ratio lending limits until a month after that Minister signed off the agreement with the Reserve Bank would seriously undermine the Government\u2019s housing policy and shatter the dreams of thousands of first-home buyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf9af98ea224ed483e81e17bc1c2e6b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, he did not advise the Minister of Finance of that, because it is simply not the case. But the Minister of Housing has advised the Minister of Finance that first-home buyers will benefit from a more rapid supply of houses to the market, and that the legislative and planning regime is now in place to achieve that. First-home buyers would be brutally punished by policies that pushed first mortgage interest rates up to 10 percent, which is where they were in 2008 after the previous Labour Government spent 9 years not solving the housing problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b48af96b6f804263b45f902b466e2e8e\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: When he became aware that the Minister of Finance intended to speak to the banks to ask them to prioritise or protect first-home buyers before loan-to-value ratio lending limits came into force, why did he remain silent and refuse to go in to bat for first-home buyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da7958eec09145beb1fe5e2e657d2019\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: You could actually ask the Minister of Finance whether he went in to bat for first-home buyers, and I can assure that member that he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b53ae4992e24462c9819fef9b78e0b79\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: How would he interpret the banks\u2019 response to the finance Minister\u2019s panicked request, given that none of them has prioritised first-home buyers and that the ASB Bank yesterday put up a third-tier manager to respond to the finance Minister\u2019s attack on that bank, demonstrating that the Government has no credibility with any of the trading banks on this issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c1181155424fb6854df18e9e67dec3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I think the trading banks\u2019 problem is that they did not accord any credibility to the Governor of the Reserve Bank. And ASB has found out that when the Governor of the Reserve Bank says that he is considering bringing in limits, then it ought to listen and stop promising young New Zealanders a loan that it knows that it probably cannot deliver on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d63bf8f0b36d4fe48a63bf74bb7f6375\u0022\u003EBetter Public Services Targets\u2014Rheumatic Fever\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe16dcbe320c46b8a583f19cac3c36da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe16dcbe320c46b8a583f19cac3c36da\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What progress is the Government making on its rheumatic fever programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002261ff9e5703544ffbb10bd35e0c752b2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ff9e5703544ffbb10bd35e0c752b2f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E By early next year, more than 50,000 children in 200 schools will be participating in the Government\u2019s schools-based throat-swabbing campaign, which is timely progress given that this Sunday is World Heart Day, where the theme is all about adopting heart-healthy behaviours from a young age. Following representations from the MP for Papakura, a further eight Papakura schools are scheduled to become part of the throat-swabbing campaign by October 2013. The campaign, which aims to reduce the incidence of rheumatic fever by two-thirds by June 2017, received an additional $21.6 million over 4 years in Budget 2013, bringing the total Government investment to $45 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219afdbd8f1074b45bf6a0e22df6a7e1c\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What community work is currently being done to help reduce rheumatic fever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220830e856c5e84857be8412fd54668ed4\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Local communities and health providers are working together in at-risk communities that experience the highest rates of disease, such as Auckland and Porirua. Soon the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Tariana Turia will announce details of the free sore throat rapid response clinics that will target families whose children do not attend schools with throat-swabbing services, and an Auckland-wide healthy homes initiative will address poor-quality housing and overcrowding, which are contributors to this disease, particularly in Auckland. Other initiatives, like research into a rheumatic fever vaccine and a targeted awareness campaign, will also help families understand how to protect their children from this very serious Third World disease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b315f2b95e1a446cb37244f055cf77ea\u0022\u003EHawke\u2019s Bay Water Management\u2014Department of Conservation Submission on Plan Change Proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5794d7860464d959458f8bca2b15205\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5794d7860464d959458f8bca2b15205\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Did he receive the draft submission on the Ruataniwha Dam proposal, which was requested by Doris Johnston, Deputy Director-General at the Department of Conservation, to be delivered on Tuesday 30 July 2013; if so, on what date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223830770e4b074f14ad3bd06a2fd243d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223830770e4b074f14ad3bd06a2fd243d2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Conservation: I am advised, as he has previously advised, that he did not receive the draft referred to until Tuesday last week, after hearing about it on Radio New Zealand National\u2019s Morning Report. He did receive the final submission on Wednesday, 31 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42916f47a604aafac4e6b769dca2178\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Were the contents of the submission he received consistent with the briefing on the draft submission he received on Monday, 29 July; if not, did he question the inconsistency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e3ffc407d1464991c8136bf6495afd\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am unable to give an answer specifically on that, other than to say that as Doris Johnston has said previously, the Minister never saw the draft submission that is being talked about. It was never provided to his office. It was an internal working draft that managers accessed. They then decided that they would not make that submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f99fa4f6a784225bdb2a33b8eeb92a4\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he say to reporters on Thursday, 19 September: \u201CThere was no mention to me of a draft submission. I did not know of the existence of a draft submission.\u201D, when he was briefed on the content of that draft submission on Monday, 29 July, expressed concern about it, and asked for a copy of it before it was submitted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022789dc03c28604ec2b53df0954f51a23b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has been quite clear. If you look at the note that he has received, he has been advised that the Department of Conservation was evaluating the proposed plan, and a preliminary view is that a submission should be lodged on the plan. As Doris Johnston made very clear: \u201CThe Minister did not play any role in my decision making.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c22924cdb5cb456292a50182fb1f3ccb\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt my colleague but three times the Hon Ruth Dyson accused the Minister of lying. That is not parliamentary language, and I ask her to withdraw that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283380cf2848046ef8e415cbdf4418d42\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Hon Ruth Dyson did so, that is unparliamentary. Would she stand and withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022553df98dfd614beeb348498c0f8d12d2\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. When and how was he informed that a senior staff member resigned\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bffcf3765344e26af32248199b28931\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am going to ask the member to start that again. I could not hear above the interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022532856aec0104d3d96980b0633c08005\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: When and how was he informed that a senior staff member resigned because the original submission on the Ruataniwha Water Storage proposal was withdrawn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b4f0b7a77a4233b0df25695699804f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has made it clear that he had not been informed of those circumstances when he last answered that question in the House, which I think was yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98655cdd2b84399a6e86cb9acd74313\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he ruling out any link between the withdrawal of the original submission and the staff member\u2019s resignation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3bbc7da13b43319c0434819f7ba4e9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am not in a position, as the Minister answering in his stead, to be able to comment on that, because that would actually be up to the employee to talk about. The real issue, though, here is the suggestion that the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751e7527cb5a4f20a921bcadeeccdb33\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister made it clear that he was unable to answer that question. There is nothing more that he can add to the situation, apart from getting the Minister down here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bf1ec03ba34e20bdcf7d518997a243\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And on this occasion I finally agree with Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b0c94d0ae6d4a76a2b3ae486a16b406\u0022\u003EDrugs, Illegal\u2014Customs Operations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002239000ca07b2c44869f03d491fa872a77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239000ca07b2c44869f03d491fa872a77\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Customs: What is Customs doing to stem the tide of illegal psychoactive substances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u002282db06ecb2134d848cf802d2d37e64b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282db06ecb2134d848cf802d2d37e64b4\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E The New Zealand Customs Service is dedicating a lot of time and resource to stopping illegal psychoactive substances from crossing our border. Just yesterday I announced that tens of millions of dollars of psychoactive substances had been intercepted at our border in a 7-month operation called Operation Static. The harm prevented to our communities is substantial. For example, seizing 80 kilograms of class C analogues, worth $21 million, prevents $32 million of harm in our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea6ddeee384d4b2cb81d38dab28ab204\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What message does this latest customs operation send?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1ae8e4d9b6943f8ad4da4a321f07a61\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: This latest operation sends a very clear message to criminals that we will stop their vile drugs and we will go after them. Eleven people have been arrested so far, and more arrests are pending. If people want to take a chance on their liberty by importing illegal psychoactive substances, they can expect to get caught.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022606885747ac84fa6b6b15629135b1965\u0022\u003ESkycity, Convention Centre\u2014Television New Zealand Dividend Relief and Other Costs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u00223167e52f1b7e4ebe8eb4cc4d06c82e11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223167e52f1b7e4ebe8eb4cc4d06c82e11\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What is the expected value of the dividends from TVNZ that the Crown will forego as a result of the dividend relief agreement related to the SkyCity deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1217a1568934fff9d7498cb9a377f52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1217a1568934fff9d7498cb9a377f52\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has agreed to dividend relief for Television New Zealand (TVNZ) to help it cover the cost of a significant investment in the major refurbishment of the central Auckland building that it currently occupies. Some of the refurbishment costs will be met by $10.6 million that the company will receive from the sale of a package of land to Skycity. The rest will be met through foregone dividends. TVNZ is currently in discussions with contractors regarding refurbishment, and I would prefer not to release an estimate of the dividend relief while they are undertaking commercial negotiations, but I am happy to do so when those negotiations are finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279dd98ff65b94f8c9eca8e8c862d052b\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the cost to the Crown in lost TVNZ dividends not included in the assessment of the value of the Skycity deal, which is looking better for Skycity and worse for New Zealand by the day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde9b6a9248241afa39344aecd57fbaf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Because it was not part of any consideration of the arrangements around Skycity. In fact, I think the catalyst for it was the idea that Telecom had emptied a building and there would be an opportunity for TVNZ to use that building in transition while the main TVNZ building was being refurbished. Those issues have only ever been considered in the last 3 months or 4 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a2808dc8a154ddca66af28218369754\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter from Minister Foss saying that TVNZ could reduce the dividends to facilitate the sale of land to Skycity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9206eeea2a47829fab267e2cb2dbe2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table\u2014it is a letter from Minister Foss?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e09daf996e4f44910761d4ad8629f6\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: Minister Foss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aae7fd9717654257881740b0bbb7d986\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that letter. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a157a3219744bbb24dd367a8e4463a\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: What is the value of the social and economic harm that will arise from increased gambling and gambling harm in New Zealand resulting from this deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d36345200dd4873a4451bc2e3e25e09\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: This deal has not been part of the considerations around Skycity, although I know the Greens do not count jobs as having any social benefit. This deal, like the Skycity deal, will create more jobs, certainly in the transition, but it is an investment that TVNZ is making for its own future. It happens that selling those buildings to Skycity enables Skycity to have a better convention centre. In that sense it is a win-win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022743f0fd890dc4616949cf7eb0a40cc75\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was about the value of the social and economic costs, and the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041b81087d9c42f7b776c0f7ee905f2b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member did not use that question. She used \u201CWhat is the value of the social and economic harm?\u201D. In that, she put an opinion. She may well be able to justify that opinion, but the Minister then addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f8ed7fd84a94c50afbbc2397bfb8d67\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very direct question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d3921d1077a495fb4eeef1fff90d3b8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I just clarify\u2014is the member disputing a ruling I have just given? Because if so, I am\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227af2f4bd96b44daacfa32dc14e809c5\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcfabb686445446da8f235801e2a79fb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if it is a fresh point of order, I will happily hear it. But it had better be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0da1adb8a07415493e7ad2af2414b7d\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister used the occasion of his answer to make derogatory comments about the Green Party. It has nothing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5ad7cebfef475fbe25a8a6796b0405\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If the member finds those comments derogatory to the Green Party, then I suggest he is just too sensitive. [Interruption] Order! I have a point of order here. Points of order will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022393ae95478c649e5af31cefff7871827\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Previously\u2014and there are several Speakers\u2019 rulings regarding this\u2014members have been told that we can expect a like style of answer to a like question. So straight questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224139cbab57b463fbaf8bf57aab5def8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just ask the member to refer me to which Speakers\u2019 rulings he is referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221ce826fab2d4256bad01ed6e862da7a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I have not actually got the exact numbers, but I am sure the Clerk will be able to tell you which ones. But anyway, the principle behind them is that a like question gets a like answer. So if it is a straight question, you get a straight answer. If it is a political question, you get a political answer. Repeatedly, what we have seen here is the member asking what I think are relatively straight questions, and the Minister has used that to attack the position or the supposed position of the person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c4e167091240d589ab6baac4d35217\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member obviously did not listen to my answer to the point of order. The question had a level of politics in it when it talked about the social and economic harm being done by the casino deal. The Minister took the opportunity to respond by saying \u201CWhat about the jobs?\u201D. Listen, this is a political debating chamber. The question was with an element of politics. The answer given had an element of politics. If the Greens find that derogatory, I do not believe that it was so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022195da310015a41c7824b92ef81f97e53\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Government be sure\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7b499eabd634c89ade1cb316f33d850\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can the member now start her question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e9bfc3eb19c4e05950ab5322eeb87c7\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Government be sure that the economic case for the Skycity deal stacks up when it does not know what the cost will be and is relying on Skycity\u2019s numbers for estimates of the benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213320900ac2495aa14c76277291f142\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in respect of this deal, it would not have been included in calculations about costs or benefits, because it is really an opportunity that arose out of the fact that the Skycity deal was eventually completed, and Skycity, on completion of that deal, has been looking to make sure that the convention centre is as economic as possible. The Government has been looking at whether TVNZ ought to consolidate its buildings from, I think, three or four buildings into one. That one building needs refurbishment. That will come at some cost. The Government as an owner has been willing to invest in that alongside the proceeds of the sale of land to Skycity. That is how it has worked, so that is why this deal has not been included in any calculation of costs or benefits around Skycity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb96acc68b34fd7b7122f359f9d071c\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an email from an independent adviser to the Ministry of Economic Development saying that all the Government\u2019s numbers come from Skycity and are not independently verified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acaef34eeedb44b89aa2a7be2f7b661e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We need to know who the author of that document is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfea4e0885ad4616878cbcfd9d52d752\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: It is from an independent adviser and it is to Roger Wigglesworth. It was given to us in confidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a27507a1bf0490f967afe4ccc5c1f8c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The easiest way is to put the leave. Is there any objection to that anonymous email being presented? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265a791b4b26a478e91e86822d55ccba2\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f0acd13dd2c40d4b752f948d6f405c1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand International Convention Centre Bill\u2014Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243eaf3af56d64632ba73f78b3c9338f6\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Commerce Committee: Did SkyCity present an oral submission to the Committee regarding the New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7a570358ef44369b081d567bfda5347\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7a570358ef44369b081d567bfda5347\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (Chairperson of the Commerce Committee):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff4de5083bb4db597e321680207b5ef\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: Can the chair confirm that Skycity, the main beneficiary of this legislation, did not appear before the committee to answer Parliament\u2019s questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db3c16e8989b4811ab8102c82928b795\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would have thought\u2014let us allow the member to answer the question. [Interruption] I thought it had actually been answered in the preliminary question, but let us have it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e32eab97314549a6a93ebfb3756d1709\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: Can the chair confirm that Skycity, the main beneficiary of this legislation, did not appear before the committee to answer Parliament\u2019s questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b21207b68a0f400ab86ec4d8212f876a\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: No, it did not appear before the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224056f36163f64a18acefb5911e12a3d5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand International Convention Centre Bill\u2014Requests for Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab243335913c408eb976de449b3feb96\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Commerce Committee: Did he invite SkyCity to present an oral submission to the Committee regarding the New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u002284aabfb595f846adb3a20be330c8ca04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284aabfb595f846adb3a20be330c8ca04\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (Chairperson of the Commerce Committee):\u003C/span\u003E No; because I left this matter for the committee to decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7e0c89cfc324dc1b7a7206f70e40883\u0022\u003EDenise Roche\u003C/span\u003E: For clarity, is it correct that despite the fact that the legislation extends Skycity Casino\u2019s licence, the chair did not ask the prime beneficiary of this legislation to appear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224319d6c38417407691fc4a1f117f2e14\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member has just answered that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d70c61ff87b34009a148553307702cf8\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002285fabe0757084c17b36eaf89a6eff82b\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc00b9daf9494fcd934ce25df0e1606e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc00b9daf9494fcd934ce25df0e1606e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. In the life of any Government, there approaches a tipping point. It is a point where the temperature in the House rises as the public makes up its mind and where the Government of the day starts to look tired, ragged, and desperate. According to the Government, I was not born in New Zealand. I am a militant Islamic terrorist and I was actually born in Kenya! We will get more from it on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe are not fooled. The real issue going on is that the Government is covering up for a Minister of Conservation who is such an endangered species that he could not even crawl his way into the Chamber. This is a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f3c3d0b5d1a4b8886130bd000066645\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e0aa584b1c42119fc1e4abe1c3c850\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I think I can anticipate\u2014the member must not refer to the fact that a Minister is not in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256fa5d7209974421a15084216a77e4c0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is showing all the signs of a third-term Government in its second term. This is a Government on its way out, and this is an Opposition on its way in. The endangered Minister is guilty of three capital crimes: self-contradiction, excess intervention, and repeat offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn a self-contradiction on 29 July he said: \u201CThe first I knew of there being an issue over DOC\u2019s submission [for Ruataniwha] to the board was at my weekly meeting with officials on Monday 29 July.\u201D On the 31st he said he received a full briefing and a final submission from his department. Roll the clock forward to 19 September. He told the media and the House: \u201CI have consistently said I never saw this draft until Tuesday of this week.\u201D That was months later. On 19 July he said: \u201CI did not know that this draft document even existed.\u201D\u2014he did not know that a draft existed. When the deputy director-general of the Department of Conservation expressed the Minister\u2019s concern, what was so nuclear in the draft? It was the department doing its duty: warning that the poor little fishies in the Tukituki River might be harmed by the nitrates in the dam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis caused the second capital crime: excess intervention. It was not nitrates in the water that was the problem; it was whatever was in the Minister\u2019s waters, because the Minister stomped all over proper departmental process. In so doing, he thwarted the Department of Conservation fulfilling its statutory mandate: saving the little fishies of the Tukituki River. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe third capital crime is repeat offending, because this Minister has a history of scandals rather reminiscent of the Ruataniwha troubles. He sacked the Environment Canterbury board because it got in the way of big irrigator interests. I wonder which big irrigating interests are leaning on this particular project. He has a habit of going off half-cocked. He wrote letters of support to ACC for National Party campaigner Bronwyn Pullar when he was Minister for ACC. He has a history of defamation cases\u2014defamation cases. It rather reminds me of a certain Matthew Hooton\u2014but we will not go there\u2014the timber company Osmose, the Exclusive Brethren, Dave Henderson, Bruce Stuart-Menteath, and then, of course, the little matter of being found in contempt of court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELook at them on the other side. One almost feels sorry for them. There comes a point past the tipping point where you just want to put them out of their misery. That time is now, ladies and gentlemen. Let us get a new Labour-led Government and give New Zealanders back their country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022483e74f39ce94655981b30d241b4010b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022483e74f39ce94655981b30d241b4010b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table an article from today\u2019s Nelson Mail. It is on the eradication programme for the giant white butterfly and it has the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00222b8a498a4d8d4dab8223f0beb8ce9fff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b8a498a4d8d4dab8223f0beb8ce9fff\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00222f9ee17175cf4a9f98d564e8eb697cc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f9ee17175cf4a9f98d564e8eb697cc7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the draft Department of Conservation submission on the Ruataniwha dam and its implications for the Tukituki catchment and estuary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a098bebb64894f5b8a74542880caa9dd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I clarify\u2014was this not tabled yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbadebd72a26427faebc1b7496f78a77\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I have a copy here, which is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6d0ee5340f4f0083937fc19145d901\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not the point. Was it tabled yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f75fed47954ddd8e518177488cd1b5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I may have missed that, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022348a3fe8c9824161a15f7c86c67e0de6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022348a3fe8c9824161a15f7c86c67e0de6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I am assured that it was not tabled yesterday, I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table the draft Department of Conservation submission. [Interruption] Order! I understood it was tabled yesterday. I sought clarification from the Labour front benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ee2d614d0b479ea7d02a99d17e805d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d8ebe0c24b4ea3bbe3f628ee09539b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would be staggered if the members cannot remember what was tabled yesterday, when they called for it. [Interruption] Sorry, the Hon Shane Jones is interjecting. What is the point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00222b753a07dc724a29ad1ae01b55ca5757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b753a07dc724a29ad1ae01b55ca5757\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a very lucid point of order. We can expect the Speaker of this House to keep an accurate record of what documents are tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002202a65e65f00f46818c7d0a6043409d5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202a65e65f00f46818c7d0a6043409d5b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the point I am making. The document was tabled yesterday, so the Hon David Cunliffe is wasting his time by seeking to table it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b87f2e6b53445f590b433935dd8fce1\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279f7f30a10524a3d94704db02fbe2a41\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, this is getting to the ridiculous stage. I will hear from the Hon Clayton Cosgrove if it is a fresh point of order. If it is not, then I will be asking the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to leave the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022be4bd1fb0cd14164bf096e4bb0b362de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be4bd1fb0cd14164bf096e4bb0b362de\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a serious procedural question, not challenging you. It is the case, I assume, that documents and other things get tabled all the time, and I assume your office\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022166aa6c7646043cfa308e2a438aba66b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022166aa6c7646043cfa308e2a438aba66b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We are now getting to the stage when the member is exactly questioning that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd858b2b2ff453caf20ec10fc50e671\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Can I finish?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5bd7777b30d4f0385fa289e030989ca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member cannot finish. The member will resume his seat. We have clarified that the document was tabled yesterday. It is a privilege to seek leave to table a document. It must be something that is done to inform members. I have been assured that the document was tabled yesterday. I will not put leave for it to be tabled again today. That is the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002299d4722e525a4cffaa87a6675ac8cafc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299d4722e525a4cffaa87a6675ac8cafc\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294aec4082779429391d977cb7aa5c2b5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a fresh point of order, or is it seeking to clarify?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c8e98e0ccc48a8ad05b4743189f68e\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Seeking to clarify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278f5cba031c94262987f65905f77e478\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear from the\u2014[Interruption] Order! It was on the basis of Anne Tolley\u2019s confirmation to me that it was tabled yesterday that I am seeking the clarification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022001759fa1cff46d8a6d726a05547ba14\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. I was asserting that the document was tabled. I do not think it was tabled yesterday; I believe it was tabled last week by the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747510ad3cd24fe3a8ad31309585be66\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Are we sure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8498ad4ed4e4ceab36787ae0bf523ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8498ad4ed4e4ceab36787ae0bf523ff\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. The easiest way forward\u2014[Interruption] Order! Now that it has been clarified that it possibly was not tabled yesterday, I am going to ask the member to seek leave\u2014would the member seek leave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b93aeffabdd54fdfadb6aaeccb44ae28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b93aeffabdd54fdfadb6aaeccb44ae28\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I seek leave to table this document, which was not tabled yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002292e589d61e304802acb164b016cde5a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292e589d61e304802acb164b016cde5a1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the particular Department of Conservation draft submission. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8b205b30555403fa6cb5aab64dfcc8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8b205b30555403fa6cb5aab64dfcc8b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c841c186f5b4463e8cae685327e976b1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5bd627352a1416399b82bbe82a6393e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: A fresh point of order. I seek leave to table briefing notes to plan change 6 to the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Resource Management Plan Tukituki Catchment and Ruataniwha Water Storage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cc370bee2e342c9bb5d2d257475c957\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, the source of these documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bb9de946fd14fa2af13fcde6fa59dcc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The Ministry for Primary Industries, I understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002288ec5cf2aacf4a478f896402c9143c3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288ec5cf2aacf4a478f896402c9143c3a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table a Ministry for Primary Industries draft statement. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022f760a90c11534ff8aa93601732cc308c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f760a90c11534ff8aa93601732cc308c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e184c465e434e23ab403d6c8d296cd2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f84e17bd6b64dce919a076f2fcbd8b1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: A fresh point of order. I seek leave to table Ministry for Primary Industries document 103298, starting at page 356, which is its final submission to the Ruataniwha\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00226e5571c95d004edb9b428520e26519c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e5571c95d004edb9b428520e26519c6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Leave is sought to table a Ministry for Primary Industries submission. Can I just check. Are there any further documents that the member wants to table?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f1c336d2b384243a875413b01182031\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1340f25c1e942b7aa4e2ada5fcc6cce\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3752367bf814732a5d32ecdcb4f2f43\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b3ca65daf3491aaa90cf1e8c2ce453\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Leave is sought to table the Ministry for Primary Industries documents. There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b11c0aacf86940459da5fd9c39098d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b11c0aacf86940459da5fd9c39098d51\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E It must be a good Government when the biggest issue of the day, of the second week of the new leader\u2019s career, is whether the Minister of Conservation saw a draft report before he knew it existed. That is the biggest issue, and I think it does show how out of touch the pale, male, stale Labour Party is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EOne of the bigger issues is actually housing, and I just want to outline the Government\u2019s programme of work towards resolving New Zealand\u2019s housing affordability issues. In the last economic cycle, up to 2007-08, housing in New Zealand became less affordable than it had ever been, driven mainly, actually, by the policies of the current Leader of the Opposition, where we ended up with first mortgage rates at 10 percent at a time when house prices had doubled in less than a decade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EBack in early 2011, when house prices had actually been falling and were flat, this Government decided that it was an issue that needed to be dealt with. At that time we announced the first inquiry of the new Productivity Commission. The first inquiry of the new Productivity Commission was into housing affordability. That commission did a very good job, because what it did was show that, in fact, the supply of housing was a critical determinant of the price of housing. I have to say that before then, when this Government had advanced that proposition, it was roundly criticised, particularly by local government, and also by the Opposition and by pretty much any commentator who thought they knew much about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Productivity Commission did its inquiry and released its report in April 2012. In October 2012 the Government released its response to that report, and then we proceeded to take action because housing affordability is an issue that affects every New Zealander. We started intensive discussions, particularly with Auckland Council, because this is about the interaction of local decision-making and regulation, along with its impact on macroeconomic settings and, particularly in New Zealand, on our export sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EOf course, the Opposition should have understood the real risks of a runaway housing market, because the runaway housing market under Labour was so bad that in 2008 it, and then we, had to back a sovereign guarantee of the New Zealand banking system with a contingent liability of over $100 billion. So we should all be aware of the risks of having a runaway housing market alongside any kind of financial disruption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt had never happened before that a New Zealand Government had had to underwrite our banking system, which is driven primarily by housing loans. So of course we set out to take action to ensure that those circumstances could not arise again. As a result of our intensive negotiations with Auckland Council, we have come to an agreement\u2014I might say, a historic agreement\u2014that the Government and Auckland will work together on increasing the supply of housing going into that market, where prices have been growing by 12 to 15 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat agreement is backed up by an innovative legislative solution, which, I have to say, took an enormous amount of work from the previous and the current Minister of Housing and was put through the House in pretty quick time. It still took 6 or 8 months to get it through, because that is the time it takes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe housing cycle, of course, has taken off\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and it is fortunate that this Government 3 years ago set off down the path of dealing with housing affordability. Now we are ready, alongside the Auckland Council, to consent thousands\u2014thousands\u2014of new houses, including affordable houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f585ba98540942feb701cf602fd3fa1e\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: How many affordable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d8e832c0964311ac8de81e5a6d5400\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The biggest indictment on that member\u2019s party is that under Labour\u2019s watch, no affordable housing was built in Auckland\u2014none. None was built in a decade\u2014almost none in a decade. By the end of Labour\u2019s time in office you had to pay $600,000 or $700,000 on the periphery of the city at mortgage rates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00224dae3f6066fc460e9452fd9c3a020f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dae3f6066fc460e9452fd9c3a020f51\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd3f502f88b742f6b0ba3b94f957b1b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd3f502f88b742f6b0ba3b94f957b1b0\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E There are two agendas that are competing in New Zealand at the moment. There is the agenda for a smarter, greener, more compassionate New Zealand and there is the Government\u2019s agenda of daft, dirty, and heartless, and nothing could illustrate that more than the debate around the Ruataniwha irrigation scheme. It looks like a debate as to whether Nick Smith misled Parliament or not, but what sits behind it is that the Government is absolutely determined to pursue its irrigation agenda, regardless of the environmental effects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhat we know from the Ruataniwha scheme is that it is massively subsidised by the taxpayer\u2014both the ratepayers in the Hawke\u2019s Bay as well as central government, which will be kicking in a lot of money\u2014we know it will have a huge downstream environmental effect of massive nitrogen contamination as a result of this dam project, if it is to go ahead; and we know that the only Government department with the statutory responsibility to stand up for the environment, to speak out for it, and to make a submission into this process is the Department of Conservation, and that is why the Minister of Conservation had to censor his department and prevent it from putting in a submission that was critical of this dam project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Department of Conservation\u2019s original submission simply stated the science. The science around this is very clear. When you have a massive irrigation project\u2014hundreds of millions of dollars this project will cost\u2014and then you have tens of thousands of hectares of intensified agriculture as a result, you get massive downstream nitrogen pollution, with all the problems that causes, not only to the native fish in that river system but, of course, to the recreational trout fishery, as well. It is the fundamental destruction of the New Zealand environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Department of Conservation was simply going to put in a submission pointing to these basic scientific facts, but it was unacceptable to the Government that the department should tell the truth about the freshwater science, so it had to be suppressed. It was just the same as when the Government got rid of the democratically elected councillors in Canterbury. Prior to the earthquake it got rid of the elected councillors in Canterbury. They were standing up to the irrigation agenda of this Government, so they had to go. That is why the Department of Conservation had to be suppressed and its submission had to be suppressed. It was not allowed to go into this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Ministry for Primary Industries, of course, was allowed to put in a very large submission in favour of the dam project, but the Department of Conservation was blocked. What this means is that we are heading down an economic path where we kill the goose that lays the golden egg. New Zealand\u2019s clean, green, and safe reputation, the foundation of our primary sector, is being destroyed by the Government while it seeks short-term profits and simply an increase in more and more milk solids. The last drop of milk from the last blade of grass could describe this Government\u2019s economic strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E Instead of having investment in research and development and innovation making us an innovative economy that makes money from our brains, we are simply becoming an economy that digs stuff up and grows milk and sells it to the rest of the world, and in the process completely destroying the natural environment that underpins our primary food export sector. As the Riddet Institute\u2014that is, the agrifood institute that is an expert in this\u2014pointed out, the Government is determined to destroy the clean, green, and safe brand that underpins our primary sector, rather than saying that what we need to do is build on that brand, get value out of that brand, control more of the value chain from that brand, get to know our customers, do the research and development so we make more money out of it, and at the same time invest in research and development in more innovative industries that can complement the primary sector, so we do not build an economy entirely dependent on cows and mining, as this Government thinks we should do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThat is the fundamental economic strategy issue that is at stake in this argument around the Ruataniwha dam. It is a fundamental divergence of views between the National Party, which wants to keep heading down this strategy of daft, dirty, and heartless, and the Green Party, which says that we need a smarter, greener, more compassionate strategy, and a smarter, greener economic strategy that actually adds value and makes us more prosperous and richer, rather than simply degrading the natural environment on which our economy depends. That is the fundamental contradiction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhen Nick Smith had the motive to get in the way of the department\u2019s report, he had the opportunity, and the evidence is that he interrupted the report. The reason why he is doing that is not just some accidental reason; he is doing it in order to support the Government\u2019s irrigation agenda, which is fundamentally undermining the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002243fb82fb4e3940fa8dda3af7f42203dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243fb82fb4e3940fa8dda3af7f42203dc\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure the House is very grateful for that lesson in business, resting on the vast experience in the real world of that member, Russel Norman. I am sure we have enjoyed that. I do challenge such members to check some of their facts around the job creation side of what he has just been talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAnyway, every time the far-left socialist coalition members over there speak and welcome socialism with open arms, as does the new leader of the Labour Party\u2014and congratulations to the new leader\u2014every time they open their mouths, New Zealand mortgages suffer. After that speech right then, and the Leader of the Opposition\u2019s speech, New Zealand mortgages will suffer if, in fact, those members are ever to get near the Treasury benches. The programme of multibillion-dollar borrowing from overseas that the three contestants in the Labour Party leadership contest have committed their party to if Labour becomes the Government will mean that New Zealand mortgages will be so much higher than they are now. The Opposition cannot wait to get its sticky fingers on the Reserve Bank. Its members cannot wait to get the independence of monetary policy out of the clutches of the world-renowned Reserve Bank here in New Zealand. The moment they talk about that, as with the moment they went there the last time they were in Government, in 2008, with an inquiry\u2014actually, New Zealand mortgages will go higher if, in fact, those members ever get anywhere near implementing that policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe results of the Better Public Services prudent management of our economy are starting to be enjoyed by more and more New Zealanders all the time. There are lower mortgage rates\u2014half of what they were under Labour in 2008, in spite of the global financial crisis and in spite of the efforts we are having to do around the Christchurch and Canterbury earthquake tragedies. I must note that we should contrast where we are now with 2008, the source of data being the 2008 pre-election fiscal update\u2014the document that introduced the decade of deficits to our country. I do note that one of the Associate Ministers of Finance was one Mr David Cunliffe in 2008, when the decade of deficits arrived in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIn 2008 under a Labour Government New Zealand had been in a recession for over 1 year. Under National right now there is some of the highest growth in the OECD. Under Labour, when one Associate Minister of Finance was one David Cunliffe, we had 10 percent floating mortgages. Under National right now we have 5 percent floating mortgages. Under Labour, when Mr Cunliffe was an Associate Minister of Finance, we had only 4 percent real wage growth over 9 years. Here under the National Government over just 5 years we have had 22 percent growth in after-tax wages. Inflation when Mr Cunliffe was an Associate Minister of Finance was nudging 5 percent, destroying the financial assets of New Zealand and pumping up an ongoing housing boom. Under National it is 0.5 to 1.5 percent\u2014under control. In 2008 under Labour exports had been in recession for many, many years. Under National manufacturing and all export sectors are growing and having a brighter future. Under Labour, when David Cunliffe was one of the associate finance spokesmen, the tax take went up 50 percent. Taxes went up 50 percent. National in 2013 is rebalancing the tax system to target those who speculate on property. Under Labour in 2008 there was an explosion of loss attributing qualifying companies\u2014nobody really hears about them any more\u2014a product of the distorted tax system of the Labour Government backed by the Greens, when Mr Cunliffe was one of the associate finance spokesmen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAfter 5 years of National in Government, New Zealanders are better off. There is no better proof than the mortgage rates that New Zealanders are paying, which are half of what they were under the Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d571bdfa7c204741baeebb660efb1044\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d571bdfa7c204741baeebb660efb1044\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Over the years New Zealand First has raised a number of issues in this Parliament and over the years we have had our credibility attacked by certain people in the press gallery and around the country who do not seem to have much of an understanding of how facts are assembled. The reality is that over the years we talked about things as wide as the wine-box inquiry, New Zealand Rail, the leaking of secret documents, the Bank of New Zealand scandal, the M\u0101ori loans affair, and, time after time, we have had the effrontery to be faced by journalists and people in the Opposition who say that what we are arguing is not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI want to say about Wh\u0101nau Ora that the allegations being made here in the last 2 days are true, and that what the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora has been telling the House is not true. That is demonstrably obvious to everybody here, in respect of those questions. Yesterday she was asked a question on whether or not she had ever offered resources and staff, such as report writers, to prepare Wh\u0101nau Ora commissioning agency bid documentation. All the evidence for that has been placed before this House. Instead, the Minister gets up here and seeks to vacillate and argue and, by being deliberately obtuse, get away from what used to be a House where things were transparent and members of Parliament were accountable. This is a disgrace, and all over this country there are people writing in\u2014I am sure even to you, Mr Speaker\u2014to say what a disgrace they think it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe fact is that John Key said that Wh\u0101nau Ora contracts would be focused on results, meaning that the providers would be held accountable for what they achieved with Government funding. When did that happen in the last 2 days? She was asked a simple question: did this or did this not happen, and 2 days later you have got officials in this Parliament and members of Parliament and certain people in the media, who would not know a M\u0101ori if they fell over one, having the effrontery to challenge someone whose information is based on documentation and M\u0101ori information as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis is the \u201Cbro-rocracy\u201D of the \u201CBrowntable\u201D\u2014to transfer hundreds of millions of dollars from worthy social causes to the elite mates and supporters of the M\u0101ori Party. They have been caught out yet again with their pork and p\u016Bh\u0101 politics. It is a blatant and barefaced use of public money to fund a completely separate system\u2014a blatant attempt to sideline pan-M\u0101ori and urban M\u0101ori authorities for their own preferred ancient mediaeval mechanism. It is a giant leap back to the worst excesses of ancient tribalism and it does not fit in with the modern democratic society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWh\u0101nau Ora, medieval in purpose, does not empower M\u0101ori. The M\u0101ori Party most certainly does not empower M\u0101ori. Democracy does empower M\u0101ori, and all the great progress and achievements came with the democratic system to this country, and every time we let that system down in this Parliament we sell our nation and democracy short. It is a giant leap backwards. They started with $30 million, then $43 million, then $50 million, and now it is $53 million a year since 2010-11. It is a gold-plated gravy train, and the latest twist is that now there are three non-governmental agencies in the mix\u2014the so-called commissioning agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ERemember when we said that they were giving money to M\u0101ori gangs and selling drugs? Remember when we said that they were giving money to a rape crisis centre with not one client? Remember when we said they gave $65,000 for a weekend hui at a rugby club, as some sort of attempt to get connection amongst M\u0101oridom? She opposed that\u2014[Interruption] What does that mean, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258163209751841be88c0e5647da3d233\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: One minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aae9b21ef42640969eb303a5100adb85\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I thought you were saying it was wonderful. Sorry, Mr Speaker. Tariana Turia, in this House and outside it, denied it, in the face of the media. I want to tell the New Zealand media that it does M\u0101oridom no good\u2014or this nation any good\u2014if it thinks it can take sides and that somehow this issue will go away. It will not. The fact is that the Minister has been caught out. I have lodged a breach of privilege. If we have got justice in this country, it will find favour. The Minister said\u2014not once, but twice over 2 specific days\u2014on the question as to whether she was involved in any sort of resourcing of these agencies, \u201CNo.\u201D, over, and over, and over again. That is a breach of privilege, and that Minister should go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022935c7618356a4be2923fbeb288027eab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022935c7618356a4be2923fbeb288027eab\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E As I rise for this general debate today, I do so knowing that the feedback I am getting from the people of my Rangitata electorate is that they are so grateful to have a Government that has its eye on the ball; that has its eye on the things that really matter to New Zealanders. So it is not what is the matter with New Zealanders; it is what matters to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EOne of the most important things to them is that the Government has assisted their households and their families through the global financial crisis and through the tough times, and they have come to understand that it has their interests at heart. So it is about responsibly managing the Government\u2019s finances. As I often say to people, I understand, as does this National Government, that when we talk about Government spending, it is actually their spending. It is their taxpayer money that we are spending. It is not Government money. It came out of the pockets of hard-working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt is actually about a more competitive and productive economy, because that is about jobs, that is about raising incomes, that is about raising the standard of living for the households of New Zealand. That is the sort of stuff where, in fact, the average household understands that it is spending so much less on its mortgage under this National Government than it ever did under the previous Government. They can certainly get their heads round how that has helped them through this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt is about the confidence that the people of Canterbury understand. They know that this Government is backing them and is backing getting the rebuild done. Canterbury is firing on all cylinders. I can tell you that unemployment is low there. I can tell you that in my part of Canterbury we are now suffering from unease about skills shortages. So I would say to people in the rest of New Zealand to come on down\u2014we have got a job for you. We will look after you down our end of the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe thing I want to concentrate on today is the Better Public Services targets. You see, this Government does not shy away from setting itself tough targets\u2014targets that will not be easy to achieve and that are not simply window dressing. Our Government and New Zealanders understand that it is not about spend, spend, spend\u2014spend for the sake of spending. It is actually about getting some value for the money we spend. It really is. We are certainly delivering. We are reducing crime. We do have measurable improvements in the health of New Zealanders. We are reducing educational underachievement and long-term welfare dependence. But long-term welfare dependence is something that the members on the other side of the House depend upon. They actually depend upon it to stay there and support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIn fact, the targets we have actually set are quite hard to achieve. We have actually had to take some risks. On this side of the House, we have had to take some\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2648c08f5f4fc892669634bf290f9a\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re over here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b840d1fa6afc46458b91c680607eaf31\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Welfare dependence is over there, is it? Welfare dependence is over there, since that is what I am actually talking about at the moment and the member calls out \u201CWe\u2019re over here.\u201D So, the number of long-term beneficiaries has fallen by almost 3,000, to 75,300. That is 3,000 in the past year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EAs for the Social Workers in Schools scheme, they are now implemented in decile 1 to 3 schools\u201472 percent of low-decile schools. That is making a real difference in those schools. Not only have we got social workers in schools but we have got social workers in every single district health board hospital. That makes a real difference. That makes a real difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003ESo if we want to look at some statistics that are truly, truly scary, 3,044 children experienced substantial physical abuse in the year to March 2013. But, actually, the good news is that that is a reduction of 3.5 percent. So we are seeing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c6409ade524e0cb4615cf51c53dd07\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s margin of error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b9b8a7509749758a769d00019b868f\u0022\u003EHon JO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member is dreaming. The Vulnerable Children Bill received universal, unanimous support across the House, so that is something that we can actually all agree on. But what we did not see under the previous Government is any jolly improvement on that, or on any tough things. So when we went out around the country with a green paper, we said that we wanted to hear the tough things that people thought we should do to protect vulnerable children. We are having fantastic success when it comes to immunisation, elective surgery, cancer treatment\u2014results, results, results under this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a7110c6d91f45ed8e0e483ab44be56c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002268e62eb8a1e34c919f3c43a4f939b330\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268e62eb8a1e34c919f3c43a4f939b330\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It is always extraordinary to follow Jo Goodhew, the only Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs ever to vote in this House against paid parental leave. That is an unbelievable record that she will leave behind in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is movie time for Nick Smith. We are up to the sequel in the series. The first movie, as most people will know, was entitled \u201CFatal Attraction: The Bronwyn Pullar Affair\u201D. That is how things began. For those who do not recall the details of that case, it concerned Nick Smith writing a letter on a ministerial letterhead as Minister for ACC and intervening in that case. I might say that there was a guest star in that movie\u2014Judith Collins. While we are discussing that, we still do not know who leaked the email out of Judith Collins\u2019 office. We still do not know that today. There are some suspicions around, but she was certainly a guest star in that movie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow we have reached the sequel. The sequel is a remake of a well-known film, The Dam Busters\u2014or, in this case, \u201CThe Accidental Dam Buster\u201D, with Nick Smith. What is not well-known about the Dam Busters movie is that it is actually based on an operation in World War II called Operation Chastise. It would be fair to say that there has been a great deal of chastising going on, on the other side of the House. Nick Smith is very grateful for the fact that Gerry Brownlee and Steven Joyce are not here, because Operation Chastise was taking place in the Beehive earlier this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENick Smith just cannot stick to one story about what has happened. What Nick Smith told us on 17 September is: \u201CI did not give the department an indication of what that submission would be.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284da0db2d8e34962a0f24ea4406b34d6\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CI did not have sex with that woman.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244783fee8c8d44aaa024cef48c294f92\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: He also said: \u201CI did not know that this draft document even existed until this morning.\u201D As my colleague Annette King says, there are echoes here of \u201CI did not have sex with that woman Ms Lewinsky.\u201D Nick Smith cannot keep his story straight in this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing here from Nick Smith is a continuation of his form, his complete lack of respect for any kind of due process, and a continuation of the crony capitalism that is now the mark of this Government. Nick Smith has the ACC case. He also has the Canterbury Regional Council case. It is important to remember that when Nick Smith was asked why he cancelled the Canterbury Regional Council elections in 2010, he said: \u201CBecause I\u2019m worried about the outcome.\u201D That is what he told New Zealanders. His lack of respect for democracy is so great that he cancelled those elections. So he has form in this. He also has form in the funding of the Mackenzie Basin consultative process on behalf of Jacqui Dean, where he overrode the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s funding processes to put in funding for his pet project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis National Government does not believe in the old \u201Cone rule for all\u201D saying that we used to hear from Don Brash\u2014no, it does not. There is one rule for National Party Ministers. They can intervene. They can meddle. They can show up on behalf of their cronies, because that is the kind of Government we have now. It is a Government that works in the interests of its mates and not in the interests of ordinary New Zealanders and the people who work every day to earn a living in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E There should be a third film in this series, and that is Gone with the Wind\u2014or \u201CGone with the River\u201D, because that is what Nick Smith should be. If John Key has any standards for ministerial behaviour, Nick Smith should be gone. He has misled this Parliament. He has misled New Zealanders. He has intervened in a process that the Department of Conservation legitimately wanted to be involved in. We stand here today, with a staff member having resigned from the Department of Conservation because of this Minister\u2019s interference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EJohn Key needs to say to Nick Smith that his time has gone\u2014there has been one too many breaches of what New Zealanders would see as the standards of ministerial behaviour. John Key is letting it go because his Government is on the ropes. Nick Smith\u2019s behaviour has fallen well short of the expectations of New Zealanders. This is a continuation of the cronyism, of the meddling, of a Government on its way out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022afa35dc317b846ecbc876268915812c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afa35dc317b846ecbc876268915812c8\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I am wearing a gerbera, which is the symbol for Arthritis New Zealand, to acknowledge and celebrate the organisation\u2019s wonderful work with the many New Zealanders who are living with that debilitating and often painful condition. I also want to acknowledge those who are out collecting in their annual appeal this week\u2014in pretty inclement conditions in many parts of the country. I am always so proud of the generosity of New Zealanders in responding to such good causes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI am also very proud to be a member of a Government that is doing such a good job focusing on the challenges and the issues that matter to New Zealanders, and is succeeding. One of the four key planks of our current term of office, as was mentioned by the Hon Jo Goodhew, is delivering better public services. That is because New Zealanders want their Government to spend their hard-earned tax dollars wisely, and they deserve to see positive results for that expenditure. We have been through very challenging times since the recession hit at the end of 2007, and our Government has had to make many tough decisions to get public spending under control and the Government\u2019s books back into surplus. We are succeeding and that is a remarkable achievement, which has earned admiration from Standard and Poor\u2019s, the IMF, and many Governments that look on New Zealand with great envy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThe members opposite love to talk of cuts. Frequently they make them up because the facts do not support the story they are trying to tell. In fact, their constant misrepresentation of the Government\u2019s fiscal strategy and significant progress is a major reason for their failure to connect with the electorate at large or to persuade the public to accept their attempts to rewrite history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMy constituents in Hamilton West know we have had to get Government spending under control after the reckless approach that we inherited at the end of 2008, and they understand that we are following a programme to attract investment in our economy and job creation. They are unimpressed by the constant opposition of Labour MPs and Green MPs to the many options that we are suggesting to create new job opportunities and investment in this country. The facts demonstrate that our plan is getting results because the economy is growing, wages are increasing, and interest rates are at record lows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMore than 65,000 jobs have been created in the past 2 years and our unemployment rate is lower than that of most developed countries. Business confidence is the highest it has been this century and our manufacturing sector has grown 9.2 percent since 2009\u2014an amazing turn-round from just a year before, when Labour was in office and it plummeted. Our fiscal outlook has improved markedly, our management of the economy is sound, we are on track to surplus in 2014-15, and we will be one of the few countries in the world that will not be increasing public debt at that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAt the start of this term of Government the Prime Minister set some very ambitious targets for those who are delivering better public services in our country. That is because we are an ambitious Government and because New Zealanders want to see better outcomes across health, education, social welfare, our criminal justice system, and elsewhere, and in every one of those areas we are delivering. The recent results are very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ELet us consider some of the results. We have committed to reducing child abuse and neglect in New Zealand because it is a tragic blight on our society. In the year to March 2013 we have seen a 3.5 percent reduction in the number of New Zealand children who are experiencing substantiated physical abuse. It is still a major challenge, and I am absolutely committed to the Children\u2019s Action Plan, which Paula Bennett has rolled out, because it will deliver further gains and further safety for our children in this country. Our crime rate is the lowest it has been for 30 years, and our police are doing a superb job\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a7490d955e4795b356ab1bb7a3680e\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: How long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e61ced76827746558ec537935990e123\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: Thirty years. The police do a superb job on the front line. Most encouragingly, youth crime has fallen by 19 percent in just 2 years. We have already exceeded the Better Public Services target. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAs a political candidate, and latterly as an MP, I hammered the need for a much greater focus on rehabilitating those who are already in our criminal justice system, because there is no point in incarcerating offenders at great expense to taxpayers if we do nothing to reduce the likelihood of their reoffending on release. That is why I warmly welcome a raft of initiatives that we have seen in recent months from the Hon Anne Tolley. We have seen a new nationwide reintegration programme called Out of Gate, which will deliver fantastic services to those who are on the point of being released. It is a fantastic initiative. I really commend it. It will ensure they have much greater options to get a job at that crucial time just before their release, when they could be at risk of reoffending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe have seen that there are fewer victims of crime, and there are further reductions in reoffending rates as a result of the new education strategy that is being rolled out for prisoners. The majority of prisoners cannot read or write properly. This is a serious driver of crime. That is why we are tackling the problem. It is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00226493184c2d204b72830a99f73196e818\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226493184c2d204b72830a99f73196e818\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I recognise the Hon Ruth Dyson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aea5deebce6b4903ac5f6bef687d8051\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aea5deebce6b4903ac5f6bef687d8051\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I would be very disappointed if you did not, Mr Assistant Speaker. It is a real pleasure to talk in this general debate this afternoon, but I am really disappointed in my subject. I have not seen very often in this Parliament the kind of inconsistencies and misleading that the Hon Nick Smith has indulged in in the last 2 weeks, and I say that it does a disservice to the whole of this House. The reputation of this Parliament should be important to all of us. If a Minister ends up doing something that is not right, then I think it is incumbent on that Minister to front up and say so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EBut what we have seen is that the Minister of Conservation was briefed clearly on a draft submission from the Department of Conservation that it wanted to make\u2014and, actually, it is its statutory obligation to make\u2014to the board of inquiry looking at the proposal for plan changes to do with the Ruataniwha dam. It was concerned about it and it wanted to make a submission expressing its concerns, particularly about the water quality and the impact on native fish. That is its responsibility. It briefed the Minister. He has consistently denied knowing of the existence of that submission. How could a Minister be briefed on a submission, raise concerns about it, ask for a copy of the full submission before it is submitted, and then deny its very existence? That is not credible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EToday I was very disappointed that the Minister was not able to join us in the House to answer questions, and I think that my disappointment was matched only by the disappointment of Nick Smith\u2019s colleague Tony Ryall, who was clearly disappointed that he was passed the parcel\u2014an absolute hospital pass\u2014in trying to justify the inconsistency that I just referred to. Minister Nick Smith has said that he did not give the Department of Conservation an indication of what its submission should be. Yet the deputy director-general\u2014not a junior staff member; a competent well-regarded professional\u2014sent an email out to her senior colleagues saying: \u201CThe Minister has expressed concern about our submission. He wants to see a final copy of it. You should send it over tomorrow, because I am out of town.\u201D I am quoting from the email, Mr Assistant Speaker, rather than referring to you. Then she said: \u201CHe has expressed concern and might want us to let the determination about the water quality be made by the EPA.\u201D It was a clear indication from the Minister about what should be in the submission and what should not, and, again, we have had the Minister denying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe denial of knowing about the submission is clearly not credible. The Minister had a briefing, he expressed concern, he asked for a full copy, and then he said that he did not know of the existence of the draft submission. That is just totally unbelievable. It just cannot be true. He then said that he did not have any influence on that submission at all. As I have just said, if you line that statement up against the statement of the deputy director-general from the email that was sent, which is now on the department\u2019s website, that statement clearly is not credible either. And this afternoon we have had further revelations of Ministers riding roughshod over their departments in relation to this very same proposal, the Ruataniwha dam. Had David Cunliffe been allowed to table the documents that he sought leave to table, which was denied by the Hon John Banks, then that would be out in the public domain. I certainly hope he is able to table those in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe Ministry for Primary Industries, another Government department, expressed concern in its draft about the Ruataniwha dam proposal about the phosphorus management, about the lack of industry best practice, about the economics of the proposal, and about the nutrient management system\u2014very similar concerns to those expressed by the Department of Conservation. The ministry no doubt reported that to its Minister. What did its final submission say? Its final submission omitted everything about the water quality and went from the draft submission saying that the economics of this proposal are very dodgy, very risky, to saying that this is a very solid proposal on economic grounds\u2014a miraculous U-turn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002289715760dae249648a5fcb0dbab10026\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289715760dae249648a5fcb0dbab10026\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to say\u2014and I am sure the Hon Annette King will join me in saying\u2014to the Hon Tony Ryall 60 million thankyous on behalf of the people of the West Coast for the Grey Base Hospital. That is one of the most wonderful pieces of news that we have had in recent times. But one of the most important things to National is\u2014as members opposite know; you can see it in their eyes that they know\u2014supporting families and households. We are doing it in spades. We are doing it in spades. We are doing it with our clear plan to take New Zealand forward. We are doing it where it matters, when it matters, and for whom it matters. How are we able to do this in times of earthquakes, global recession, and continuing economic risk? We do it through having the Prime Minister we have got. We do it from having the Cabinet Ministers that we have got, and in my view they work extraordinarily hard. And we do it through having the whole of the National caucus working with our coalition partners\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde9c088cd154204a32d0103dfcb7c4a\u0022\u003EHon Chester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: As a team. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5364dcca0d4e3aa925074e9b82a1ed\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as a team; as a team, quite right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764b7b8f81324baf940372a4828142a3\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: United. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb7fa58f5384f78a16cdd0e09737da9\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: A united team. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EOne of the biggest differences between centre-right and centre-left, just to be serious for a moment, is the size of the Public Service. This is a major divide, in my observation, in New Zealand politics, and always has been. Each side is equally determined that their way is best. Labour and the Greens combined believe in big Government, with big Government departments and lots of civil servants. Ask the real estate agents in Wellington how much property the Labour Government had leased before we saw it off the Treasury benches. There were heaps\u2014heaps of places were under lease. National-led Governments work on the basis of judging the use and effect of Government services\u2014not on the basis of size, not on the basis of the number of staff, but on having better public services. Targets have been set. Strategies have been introduced, implemented, reviewed, and assessed. There are many indications of success. We have heard of so many examples today from this side of the House. It has been a pleasure listening to the speeches from my colleagues. It really gives one confidence that the country is in good condition, in good heart. Mortgages rates are half of what they used to be under Labour\u2014half of what they used to be under Labour, the \u201CShylock Party\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac557f0520ad44acb41811780f153c1a\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: What about Christchurch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319f63162a254a0092fedfdcb62ff7c4\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Christchurch is getting rebuilt. The economy is growing. Jobs are being created, weekly wages are increasing, and interest rates generally are at an all-time low. More than 65,000 jobs\u2014no wonder there is silence\u2014were created in the last 2 years. I understand\u2014a point of celebration\u2014that there are more people employed in New Zealand now in paid work than ever before, more than at any other time. New Zealand has a proud history. Other countries look at our managed success with understandable envy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f629a1df2f4499ea4eaa955f17a0144\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but there were two members who do not have the floor who are interjecting on each other, and that is not permitted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227402f551a26a484885cd14b63ed802fe\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much for introducing an element of control on the side benches\u2014a constant risk to the\u2014[Interruption] I am not going to repeat that, but they are a constant risk to the integrity of good government. However, I had not actually noticed them. I had not actually heard them. But it really is interesting to see how our economic success is met with understandable envy in overseas countries. Our Prime Minister has been doing a great job overseas, putting our credentials before other developed countries. New Zealand can be very proud. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EBut one of the achievements of this Government that I am particularly proud of is in the health portfolio\u2014in the health portfolio. I remember when we were in Opposition when Pete Hodgson was Minister of Health. Do you remember \u201CScreeching Pete\u201D? I remember when the Hon Tony Ryall picked up the portfolio and shook it like a doormat. He did. He did. He refused to accept the appallingly low levels of service\u2014people stuck in corridors and all that sort of thing. I know that Annette King was very disturbed as well. When we became the Government, the Hon Tony Ryall transformed the health services and the National-led Government committed to growth in health services\u2014committed to growth in health services. I have been stopped by doctors and medical practitioners at service stations, in the street, in a number of towns throughout New Zealand, where people say \u201CPlease tell Tony he is doing a wonderful job.\u201D, and he is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c39a1796823c4bcda84c1447fba7a8e4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member must use the Minister\u2019s full name or title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d3db3c98bc84bf8a18a24640ce091d9\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I will say it again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e50a054bd1c34bb0821f1c78e66283b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e50a054bd1c34bb0821f1c78e66283b5\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Climate scientists and officials are assembled in Stockholm this week to go through the first part of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change\u2019s fifth assessment report. The focus is on the scientific findings of climate change. We know from the media that the report is confirming the scientific forecasts of climate change that were put forward generally in 2007. The difference is that the scientists are now affirming this with greater confidence. Although this is reassuring, it does not alter the terrain for policy makers in terms of the need for prescribed policy. In fact, we have known for two decades now of the need for an economic transformation. The first Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report of 1990 concluded that scientists were virtually certain that emissions resulting from human activities are substantially increasing the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases. Based on then current emissions, global warming would be about 3 degrees by 2100. That was in 1990. The panel\u2019s four subsequent reports have simply reaffirmed what we largely knew 23 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThis scientific insight, you might hope, would be matched with rational discussion and insightful policy. Given the stakes involved\u2014the bio-integrity of the planet, the health of the global economy, the quality of life of our children\u2014you might think we would act on the basis of the precautionary principle we proclaimed at the Earth Summit back in 1992. But rationality and insight have been attacked by vested interest and a weird form of scepticism. That has delayed action, to a point where we now face catastrophe if urgent action is not undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe World Bank president, attending Stockholm, said yesterday: \u201CDecades of progress are now in danger of being rolled back, because of climate change \u2026 This is a \u2018make-or-break\u2019 decade for action on global warming. The time to address the interlinked challenges of climate change and ending extreme poverty is now.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThere is a difference between the scientific method and political gaming. Science requires, by its nature, contestation of hypotheses advanced and conclusions reached. Political gaming allows the undermining of that process through tactics of defamation and selectivity of fact. Let us listen to the scientists in the past 24 hours. They are saying a few things about the confidence thing. They are saying that they are about as certain that global warming is a man-made threat as they are that cigarettes kill. They are saying that they are as sure about climate change as they are about the age of the universe. They are more certain about climate change than about vitamins making you healthy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EGeorge Gray used to be the chief scientist in the Bush administration. He said: \u201CThere\u2019s a group of people who seem to think that when scientists say they are uncertain, we shouldn\u2019t do anything \u2026 That\u2019s crazy.\u201D A new group of international leaders, headed by former Irish president Mary Robinson, has just issued an appeal. She said: \u201CThe time for radical leadership on climate change is now \u2026 for the sake of generations to come,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E So the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change\u2019s fifth assessment view, according to the media, is that atmospheric carbon dioxide has increased 40 percent since 1750, half of that in the last half century. Temperature rises are pretty much as projected back in 2007, most likely around 2 degrees plus, perhaps almost 5 degrees. The fifth Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report on climate science will be another wake-up call for humanity. It will inform us on the related issues that must follow\u2014an assessment of impact and mitigation measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EAnd what will New Zealand have to say? What might we ask of the Minister? He is attending trade talks in Asia right now, largely indifferent to the real global issues of the day in the Swedish capital. What emission reductions have been achieved as a result of his Government\u2019s radical leadership in the emissions trading scheme? What is our projected emissions level for 2020, the end of the make or break decade for action on global warming? Is he satisfied that the 5 percent unconditional target set by New Zealand for 2020 is enough, is a fair share in global radical leadership for this critical decade? Why do he and the John Key Government not show greater concern for what is happening around them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2ec2ac6aa4a4f11b14cad224ebd5d39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2ec2ac6aa4a4f11b14cad224ebd5d39\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is always interesting to follow a Green member in a debate such as the general debate\u2014one where we have doom and green gloom, ad nauseam.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221786fb98614344d9a1785274ee5297df\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dfbf887d8184f39b7077ccd6dadd792\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Doom and green gloom. The Green vision for New Zealand is like the Amish without the Bibles. It is back to the horses and the carts. It is back to doom and gloom, and, frankly, we on this side of the House have a far more optimistic, a far more positive, a far more aspirational view of the world. Ours is a Government\u2014led so ably by the Rt Hon John Key\u2014that has a vision and a view of New Zealand that is going to create the brighter future that we have already set in place for all folk in our country. Our plan is about responsibly managing the Government\u2019s finances so that taxes are spent wisely and services are provided well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOver the last 48 hours my electorate of Coromandel has been buffeted by high winds, by heavy seas, and by heavy rain. That is no doubt all due to the climate change, Dr Graham?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022013f72af3dc04947bc3ab58d5fe0718e\u0022\u003EDr Kennedy Graham\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ce4acadbb54be298fb8c32af8c96ea\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member says it is no doubt due to all the climate change. It is probably more to do with the annual spring equinox, actually. It has been going on since time immemorial. It has probably got to do with nothing more than just the spring equinox. Trees are down, roads have been closed by slips, and there have been high tides all around the electorate. Roads have been closed, and electricity, I am told, is still off in some parts of the electorate. So my good wishes and concerns go to the hard-working, stoic, diligent people of the Coromandel, who are putting things to right, getting on with the job, and cleaning up after the storm. I want to particularly mention and thank our emergency services on the peninsula, most of which are volunteer emergency services. They have done a great job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBetter public services are what this Government is about. Yesterday during question time I had the opportunity to ask our very capable Minister of Justice, the Hon Judith Collins, about the conviction and sentencing statistics for the 2012-13 financial year. I am delighted to say that she was able to confirm to the House that the figures just released show that the number of adults charged in our courts has decreased a further 7 percent in the last 12 months\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c73817ce5824955b3a55a52336f2bb4\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: 7 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022855817c37f864e28897883849eba272b\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a further 7 percent. Since the 2008-09 financial year the total number of people charged with criminal offences has been reduced by a massive 23 percent. That is 23 percent. The number of people charged with criminal offences in our justice system has reduced by this massive 23 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EClearly, the justice sector is working well, and in my capacity as chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee I am very pleased to be able to work with National\u2019s justice team. That involves the Minister of Justice, Judith Collins, the Minister for Courts, the very capable Chester Borrows, the Minister of Police and the Minister of Corrections, Anne Tolley, and, of course, the Attorney-General, Chris Finlayson. Together they are doing a great job. Altogether it means that there are fewer people in our criminal justice system, because this is a Government that is committed to making New Zealand a safer place for all so that we have fewer victims in our community. It is absolutely important that we do have that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThese statistics show that our initiatives across the sector are having very positive results. The crime rate is down to its lowest in more than 30 years\u2014the lowest crime rate in more than 30 years. And it gets better because under National, youth crime, in particular, has fallen 19 percent in just 2 years\u201419 percent down in 2 years. This means that we have already exceeded the Better Public Services target to reduce youth offending by 5 percent by 2017. So what have we done? We have upped the challenge. We have upped the challenge and we have increased the target so that it is now set at a 25 percent reduction by 2017. The number of young people appearing in court is dropping as well. Child and youth prosecution statistics show that the number of children and young people being charged in court is at its lowest in 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo collectively this National Government is bringing better public services to New Zealand, and in the justice sector we are really excelling. That means there are fewer victims and fewer New Zealanders who are feeling unsafe in their homes and in their workplaces. Together, this is a good Government doing an exceptionally good job, which is making the justice sector a hallmark of success in terms of our better public services. This is a good Government doing a great job, and I am privileged and delighted to be working with such capable colleagues on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224be594b5734b48e58acfc8d551f53829\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b15f19e8c8314861bb1c28735beaf806\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00223ffddeb2f2874d03920154337f1dce17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ffddeb2f2874d03920154337f1dce17\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill be now read a first time. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Ka nui te mihi ki a koe i t\u0113nei r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I appreciate you hugely today.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI nominate the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to consider the bill. Ka nui taku mihi ki a koutou e whakarongo mai n\u0101 i roto o Tauranga Moana i t\u0113nei w\u0101. Ko te t\u016Bmanako ia kua aro mai koutou ki te ia o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero. Te tikanga ia ka whakahokia t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga whenua ki \u0113tahi \u014D koutou, hoi an\u014D, koinei te mihi o te ng\u0101kau ki a koutou katoa. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[My huge appreciation to you collectively listening in from Tauranga at this point in time. The hope is that you have taken aboard the tenor of this of the speeches. It means essentially that this parcel of land will be returned to some of you, and so an acknowledgment from the heart to you all. Well done.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs I stand to open the discussion on this bill, the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill, I want to first acknowledge Albert Puhirake \u012Ahaka, the chair of the \u014Ctamataha Trust and promoter of the bill. I think his leadership and perseverance in bringing this bill to fruition should be commended. In achieving this significant moment in the statute, recognition must also go to Mr Alan Tate, the trust administrator who has managed the preparatory work to get here today. He has liaised with the Department of Internal Affairs, Land Information New Zealand, Trinity Wharf, Te P\u012Bhopa o Aotearoa, the registrar-general, the Solicitor-General, and Crown Law\u2014all agencies that have a direct interest in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI want to also acknowledge all of the trustees: M\u014Drehu Ng\u0101toko Rahipere, Desmond Matak\u014Dkiri Tata, Joanne Ng\u0101peeti Gear, Peri R\u0101weti Kohu, Sylvia Hemoata Willison, Rena Uruhina Bennett, Raewyn Ngakum\u0101m\u0101 Keith, and William Charles Retireti McGuigan. I first met the trustees in September 2009 to discuss their proposal to introduce a private bill to vary the terms of a trust affecting land at Dive Crescent in Tauranga Moana. Of course, 4 years later it is a great day today to see this bill finally come before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut if I thought that 4 years appears to be a significant time to wait, it pales into insignificance with the 117 years that these people have had to wait. This bill, in acknowledging and recognising the mana of Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho, also appreciates their status over land that has been held by the New Zealand Mission Trust since 1896. The bill transfers land in Tauranga and other property from the New Zealand Mission Trust to the \u014Ctamataha Trust so that it can be used for the beneficiaries of the \u014Ctamataha Trust rather than of the 1896 trust. At the heart of the bill, then, we are talking about two trusts. The \u014Ctamataha Trust was established by the hap\u016B of Ngati Tapu and Ngai Tamar\u0101waho to own and manage land and other property acquired through those historical common interests of those hap\u016B in Tauranga Moana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Mission Trust Board is a body incorporated under the Religious Charitable and Educational Trust Boards Incorporation Act 1884. The purpose of that Act was to hold the assets of the board in trust for the spiritual benefit and spiritual instruction of M\u0101ori people in the North Island or, failing that, the evangelisation of heathen races in any part of the world. We have to remember that we are talking here about 1884, and that the Mission Trust Board itself was a by-product of the Church Missionary Society. The Church Missionary Society was formed out of the global goal to send the missionaries to \u201CAfrica and the rest of the heathen world\u201D to \u201Cpropagate the knowledge of the Gospel among the Heathen.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt would be a little bit remiss of me as the co-leader of the M\u0101ori Party to avoid the obvious, which is to comment on the use of the word \u201Cheathen\u201D to marginalise, oppress, and discriminate against M\u0101ori as the other. It fits within the context of political, social, economic, and cultural discrimination of the day\u2014a time in which tangata whenua were described in other comparable terms, such as \u201Cthe noble savage\u201D and other terms denoting an immoral status. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt was anticipated that the introduction of the Gospel to indigenous people would transform them from this supposedly heathen state to a world of civilisation. The process of converting indigenous populations to the doctrine of Western Christianity was meant to achieve beneficial return for the native congregation. It is outside the scope of this bill to pass any judgment on the Church Missionary Society other than to note its role in the land in question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Church Missionary Society was established in Tauranga in 1835. In 1838 and 1839 the society purchased two blocks of land at Te Papa\u2014the Te Papa Peninsula being the site of central Tauranga today. The 1838 purchase was carried out by deed by Rev. Alfred Nesbit Brown on behalf of the Church Missionary Society. He was charged with purchasing land at Tauranga, including \u014Ctamataha, from tangata whenua. The 1838 transaction, however, has never been accepted by tangata whenua as a sale of the land to the Church Missionary Society, and therein lies the genesis of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe core issue at the heart of this bill is to recognise that the awarding of the Crown grant in 1852 was, in itself, contrary to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. In 2004 the Waitangi Tribunal, in Te Raupatu o Tauranga Moana: Report on the Tauranga Confiscation Claims, after considering the manner in which the Crown grant for the land was awarded to the Church Missionary Society, concluded \u201Cwe find that Godfrey failed to ascertain and acknowledge the conditional nature of the transactions under Maori customary law and that he wrongly concluded that the [Church Missionary Society] had fully and fairly purchased the whole of the area. The Crown, in accepting Godfrey\u2019s recommendation and finally awarding the [Church Missionary Society] a Crown grant for the whole area, was therefore in breach of the Treaty principle of active protection.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFifteen years after the awarding of the Crown grant, in 1867 the Church Missionary Society gifted the Crown four-fifths of the land, and military settlers were settled on it. On 28 September 1896 the residue of that land, including \u014Ctamataha, was transferred by the Church Missionary Society to the New Zealand Mission Trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFast forward a century and in 1996 the New Zealand Mission Trust Board handed back control of the land to the new trustees appointed by Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. That all appears to be very positive, but there was a catch. Although the new trustees had control of the land, they are still obliged to use the land with the new Sebel Hotel built on it. The trust would collect the ground rent from that hotel. It has always been the intention of the two trusts that it be changed so that the two hap\u016B can benefit from it directly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo 2 years after the control of the land was passed over in a deed dated 20 September 1998, the then trustees of the New Zealand Mission Trust Board, in recognition of the manner and the process by which the land was acquired from tangata whenua, resigned as trustees. They were immediately replaced by the trustees representing the hap\u016B of Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. This bill, then, puts right a wrong that occurred over a century ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn the letter that Albert \u012Ahaka wrote to the Clerk of the House of Representatives in submitting this bill, he summed up the purposes in one clear statement. He said: \u201CThe reason for this bill is to enable property to be used for the benefit of people and hap\u016B from whose t\u016Bpuna that property was originally derived.\u201D That property will be transferred from the charitable trust that currently holds that property to a new common law trust. The beneficiaries of this new trust and, indeed, this bill will rightfully be the descendants of the t\u016Bpuna from which the property was originally taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, the history and the context of this bill rest with the mana of Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. We look forward to hearing more from these hap\u016B about their historical common interests in Tauranga Moana and at Te Papa. That common interest extends from Tauranga Harbour to the Waikareao Estuary and includes all of the land north of that line, including reclaimed land at Sulphur Point and the adjacent harbour bed. At the select committee we will also learn more about the significance of their whakapapa to Tapukino, in the case of Ng\u0101ti Tapu, and Tahuriwakanui in the case of Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EMy fervent wish is that these people who have waited well over a hundred years for justice to be done will now be able to see this injustice righted in as quick a time frame as can be realistically achieved. I commend this bill to the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u00228dafde297d524aee84de1bce6a83eea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dafde297d524aee84de1bce6a83eea4\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. My colleague Te Ururoa Flavell from the M\u0101ori Party sums up the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill in the nicest language possible. But to think that in the year 2013 we are in the House before you fixing up a rather messy and dirty episode\u2014one small dirty episode\u2014that happened in the Tauranga Moana area some 100 years ago. Two hundred years ago Samuel Marsden got on a boat and came out to New Zealand, and that is where his deed\u2014I was going to say \u201Cdirty deed\u201D, but it might not be correct of me because I suppose that in his day his adventure was to go to all corners of the earth and Anglicise everybody he saw, whether it was right or wrong. That was his mahi; that was his job. I must say that when he first came here he had only a couple of supporters from the indigenous people. It took him a while to get them all signed up to this new and funny religion at that time, Christianity. He did a good job because by the time he was sort of moving on in his life, most of M\u0101oridom had signed up for Christianity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut as we have seen over our history, especially members of this House in dealing with Treaty settlements, on occasion\u2014more than one occasion\u2014there have been some suspicious deals done over landholdings, and none more so than by the Church. It is pleasing to note that in this enlightened time the Church itself has realised that there were mistakes and bad deeds done in the name of the Lord, and it is willing today to help fix those problems that caused so much damage. To Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho I say well done. Well done for waiting for the return of land that is highly significant to you both. If I can be so bold as to say that both hap\u016B say it re-establishes their connection to the water of Tauranga Moana, it provides an income to the hap\u016B to finance other activities, including allowing hap\u016B to participate in the downtown economy of Tauranga, and it comes just before the 150-year anniversary of Gate P\u0101, which is next year. I am pretty sure that we will get the bill back into the House and done and dusted before that anniversary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe \u014Ctamataha Trust has been established by the hap\u016B of, like I said, Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho to own and manage land and other property just like any other normal person in this country. That is a great thing. The bill declares the new trustees to be a leasing authority for the purposes of the Public Bodies Leases Act 1969. The land being transferred will be subject to a lease granted under that Act. This enables the transfer to happen without affecting the lease and lessee\u2019s rights. The Church Missionary Society, the CMS, was established in Tauranga in 1835, and in 1838 the society bought two blocks from tangata whenua on the site that is where the city of Tauranga is today. When I say \u201Cbought\u201D, I mean \u201Cbought\u201D in inverted commas; bought in the language of the day. The transaction has never been accepted by tangata whenua as a sale of the land to the Church Missionary Society. In 1867 the Crown acquired by gift of the Church Missionary Society four-fifths of the land, which had been vested in the Church Missionary Society by Crown grant in 1852, and military settlers were settled on it. This land was surrounded by confiscated M\u0101ori land that was also settled. In 1896 the remaining land, including \u014Ctamataha, was transferred from the Church Missionary Society to the New Zealand Mission Trust Board, which held the assets of the board on trust for the spiritual benefit and spiritual instruction of M\u0101ori people in the North Island of New Zealand\u2014and here is the bit that I really, really like\u2014or, failing that, the evangelisation of heathen races in any part of the world. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f79627987ae849a8bfe8f0d52a164c18\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s still hope for you, Tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa60be5e696a40cc902e9a7849eef0d6\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: There is still hope for me. The interesting thing is that through the so-called purchase of this little block of land it was not only for the Anglicisation or the evangelisation of iwi M\u0101ori but for the rest of the world as well. So way back then we were having an effect on the world\u2019s Christian population. Those people in the deepest, darkest parts of Africa, Australia, America, and England, even, should be thankful to Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho for their contribution to their evangelisation. In 1996 the New Zealand Mission Trust Board handed back control of the land to the new trustees appointed by Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. This was done in recognition of the manner and process by which the land was originally acquired from tangata whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to mention the Treaty of Waitangi and what the Waitangi Tribunal said in its Te Raupatu o Tauranga Moana: Report on the Tauranga Confiscation Claims in 2004, and echo what my colleague Te Ururoa Flavell said, \u201C\u2026 after considering the manner in which a Crown grant for the land including Otamataha was awarded to the Church Mission Society in 1852 [it] concluded \u2026 : \u2018we find that Godfrey failed to ascertain and acknowledge the conditional nature of the transactions under Maori customary law and that he wrongly concluded that the CMS had fully and fairly purchased the whole of the area. The Crown, in accepting Godfrey\u2019s recommendation and finally awarding the CMS a Crown grant for the whole area, was therefore in breach of the Treaty principle of active protection.\u2019 \u201D The sad thing about that is that these people had to go to the tribunal only to find the tribunal rule in their favour but that it could not do anything about it because the land was not in Crown hands; it was in private ownership. And through the good deeds of various people from then on to this day\u2014and I want to congratulate my colleague Te Ururoa Flavell on being the member who sees this bill through the House. Despite this conclusion, section 6(4A)(a) of the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975 prevented the Waitangi Tribunal from making any recommendation affecting the future ownership of \u014Ctamataha, because the land, as I said, was not owned or controlled by the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIt is a good day. I am pleased as the chairperson of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to have this before our committee, and can guarantee that we will not only enjoy our work listening to submissions but make a bit of a pilgrimage, to coin a phrase, to the area to listen to those submitters and actually get a feel for what is being handed over. I also commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022861d0a91ee79430ba0b4b523cec35034\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022861d0a91ee79430ba0b4b523cec35034\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am pleased to be able to take a call on the first reading of the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill. I also want to endorse the sentiments of the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to congratulate Te Ururoa Flavell on bringing the bill to the House. It is a good example of where issues sit outside the context of Treaty settlements but where they are included within the context of Waitangi Tribunal claims. You can find a solution albeit it takes a long time getting there. So thank you, Te Ururoa, for the extensive history that you have given regarding Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho\u2019s interests in Tauranga Moana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI had the privilege to be able to sit alongside a member of Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho and listen to some of their history and connection to raupatu that occurred over there. Much of the interests of that particular hap\u016B, as I understand it, actually extend into the central business district of Tauranga Moana, of Tauranga City Council. So there is a level of concern that within the context of their broader Treaty settlement claims, the nature of their interests may not wholly be satisfied by the claims settlement process. We can only wait and see because the Government is continuing its negotiations with the Tauranga Moana claimants. But for the purposes of this discussion and in the interests of Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho, it is a significant interest within the Tauranga central business district, and I hope that they are able to achieve some greater settlement recognition come that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa made mention of the \u014Ctamataha Trust, in particular, the contribution of Albert Puhirake \u012Ahaka. I too want to recognise the hard work and effort that have gone into preparing the bill and in getting it to a point where the interests of the trust and the New Zealand Mission Trust Board have been able to converge and present something that this House can have a level of confidence in. When the bill gets to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, I am sure that members around our table will be hearing for the first time some of the extensive interactions of the missionaries during the 1800s in Tauranga Moana, and the impact that they had on the hap\u016B in that region. There will probably be a smattering of familiarity throughout their story that will be common to other stories in other regions, as well. But the point of all that is to ensure that an enduring opportunity to recognise the connection of Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho to this area can be achieved, that there is a management structure in place, and that there will be an ongoing opportunity for the management of the interests and purposes of what happens on that land that can take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWhen I was reading through the notes on this particular bill, I thought it was of some interest that the Waitangi Tribunal report was quite clear. Without repeating contributions of previous members, I thought this particular statement was germane to how this bill came about. It is taken from the Waitangi Tribunal report on the Tauranga Moana confiscation claims. It said: \u201CThe Crown acquired the Te Papa lands without accounting for the implied trust, which it was aware of. According to the Crown\u2019s own records, the land was held in trust for the benefit of Maori. In ignoring the trustee role the CMS\u201D\u2014the Church Missionary Society\u2014\u201Chad in holding the land, the Crown further breached the principle of active protection.\u201D What we understand throughout the whole process of Treaty settlements, and in the nature of interests that M\u0101ori have in instances like this, is that where the Crown has failed its obligation in the active protection of interests, there will always be an issue to remedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ESo I am very pleased\u2014very, very pleased\u2014that we have this bill, which will go to the select committee. It will get a robust hearing that will inform the committee members of the history of the area, and that will lead to what I predict, hopefully, will be a larger claims settlement bill that will hopefully come to the House before the end of the year for Tauranga Moana. I am sure that is the sincere hope of the member for Waiariki, because the outstanding interests of the iwi in Tauranga Moana still need to be addressed. N\u014D reira, ki a koe te mema m\u014D Waiariki, t\u0113nei te mihi atu ki a koe i tau mai t\u0113nei pire i mua i te aroaro o te Whare nei. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[And so, to you the member for Waiariki I commend you for bringing this bill before this House. Congratulations to you and to us collectively.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb77d0a47cc34d34966a30d267883919\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb77d0a47cc34d34966a30d267883919\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to be able to stand and support the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill at its first reading. As we have heard, it is a private bill that has been brought to the House by Te Ururoa Flavell. I think it is important to thank him for the work he has done to bring this bill here, because these bills are difficult, they are convoluted, and they have a long history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is to effect the transfer of assets from the New Zealand Mission Trust to the \u014Ctamataha Trust so that those assets can be used in future for the benefit of the hap\u016B of Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. This bill is an attempt to unravel the long, complex, and convoluted history of the land near the Tauranga area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe story started back in London in 1799, when the Society for Missions in Africa and the East was founded by evangelical Christians. Their goal was, firstly, to convert people in Africa and then in the East, but this organisation became part of New Zealand\u2019s history when its missionaries met Samuel Marsden in Sydney. They agreed to give Africa a miss and come to New Zealand. They joined him and they travelled and arrived here in 1814. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ETheir early years in New Zealand were tumultuous, but by the time they had the arrival of Henry Williams in 1823 they were the dominant group of Anglican missionaries amongst M\u0101ori right throughout the North Island. They were very active and they worked hard, but by 1830 there had been only two conversions. However, during the 1830s the tide turned and there was a mass conversion of M\u0101ori. By 1845 an estimated 43,000 M\u0101ori were attending Church Missionary Society services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EWith this expansion they established mission stations throughout the North Island. In 1838 the Rev. Alfred Nesbit Brown, acting on behalf of the Church Missionary Society, purchased two blocks of land at Te Papa\u2014Te Papa, of course, is now central Tauranga\u2014and that included \u014Ctamataha, from tangata whenua. In 1867 four-fifths of this land was gifted to the Crown, and the Crown used that to settle military settlers. The area where this land was had adjacent land that had been confiscated from M\u0101ori, and that was used as a settlement, as well. The key point here is that this 1838 purchase by the Church Missionary Society was never accepted by tangata whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIn 1896 the last remaining remnants of the land, including \u014Ctamataha, were transferred to the New Zealand Mission Trust Board, which had held the assets of the board on trust\u2014and this is the wonderful quote the Hon Tau Henare likes\u2014\u201Cfor the spiritual benefit and spiritual instruction of M\u0101ori people in the North Island of New Zealand or, failing that, the evangelisation of the heathen races in any part of the world.\u201D It is a fascinating story, and we look forward to unravelling it in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, hearing the full story, and making sure that we do the right thing by tangata whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022817b2578701a459880d1fb83fdb312d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022817b2578701a459880d1fb83fdb312d2\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. He mihi ki te Whare. He mihi nui ki te Ng\u0101ti Tapu me Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho o Tauranga Moana. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. I would also like to acknowledge the member Te Ururoa Flavell, who brought the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThis is an important day and it is great to have a process whereby this issue can be progressed, given the way that it has struggled in other forums and how important it is to the people of Tauranga Moana. It is a beautiful area of the country, full of natural resources, but, regrettably, not shared with the original tangata whenua, who are still struggling for basic justice today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EAll of my colleagues in the House today have clearly outlined some of the fascinating history around this very good example of what I would call the three \u201Cm\u201Ds of colonisation: the military, the mass, and the missionaries. Those three \u201Cm\u201Ds have had an important role in the colonisation process and are intertwined deeply in our history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the missionaries, as described in this bill, was the evangelisation of the heathens. They managed to get to Aotearoa to carry this out in the 1830s, and they were sincere in their belief that what they were doing was going to be beneficial. At the heart of the missionaries\u2014and I have read a number of the diaries of the Williams families and other missionaries\u2014was a deep-seated belief that they were superior and a deep-seated belief that they were bringing something that people who had not heard this message should hear, but also that they were superior. That superiority created a lot of problems for them. It goes right back to Henry Williams and the signing of Te Tiriti o Waitangi where Henry Williams, who was a fluent M\u0101ori scholar, took an interesting approach to articles 1 and 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EHowever, this bill is more specific than that. It is not just about Te Tiriti; it is about what happened in Tauranga Moana at Te Papa and the Tauranga mission station. I read last night some of the life of Alfred Brown, who was the missionary who came in 1838, 3 years after the mission was established, after he had converted a very famous rangatira W\u012Bremu Tamihana Tarap\u012Bpipi of Waharoa. Alfred had an interesting life and was very sincere, but he also purported to have purchased this land from the hap\u016B, and, as others have said, his understanding of \u201Cpurchase\u201D was deeply framed by the Western individual property rights view, rather than the understanding of what customary rights, reciprocity, and land is actually about for the people of that place. So Alfred\u2019s role in the Tauranga mission station is fraught with contradictions, as are those of many missionaries around Aotearoa at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EAlfred was involved in attempting to minister to the wounded and the dead at the battles of Gate P\u0101 and Te Ranga, and he did attempt to be impartial, it is said, but it is also suggested that he lost the trust of the local M\u0101ori people not only because of this \u014Ctamataha land issue but because he was deemed to be associating with the enemies. So he was, as many missionaries were, in an invidious position where he had a particular set of goals that he failed to carry out. His aims, he said, were to protect M\u0101ori from European influence and convert them into perfect Christians, which is deeply contradictory given that he was a European trying to convert them to a European view of the world. Such is the complex world of the missionaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe missionaries in Aotearoa\u2014not necessarily Alfred, who was quite moderate in his acquisitions, compared with some; for example, the Williams family\u2014acquired vast quantities of land, and along the East Coast they still own that land. They certainly benefited alongside the military and alongside the mass who migrated, in obtaining wealth, power, and privilege. It is only right now that this bill begins to redress some of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is very pleased to support this bill. We think it is high time, after this very long battle, that these people, these hap\u016B, should actually get complete authority and control. But as our first speaker said, already the land has been unutterably altered. There is a hotel on it. They will get the financial redress, which is a great thing. However, they will never get what they lost and it will never be returned in the state it was when they lost it. Money is always helpful, but mana is also important, which is why, although the Waitangi Tribunal was very clear, they then had to go through a long process to get to this point that we are at today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EIt is really important, and I am quite sorry I am not on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. I think it is a privilege to hear these stories. It is a privilege to be presented with this information by tangata whenua coming to this Parliament. I know that they will get a good hearing at the select committee. I have faith that this bill will actually take these people to a better place. I look forward to the wider issues that the Hon Nanaia Mahuta referred to, in terms of the settlement of Tauranga Moana. We fully support this bill, so that the mass, the military, and the missionaries can no longer dominate anyone\u2019s land in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00224ebd29ebbb3244d595c70a1e19af2379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ebd29ebbb3244d595c70a1e19af2379\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill, brought to the House by the member Te Ururoa Flavell. I congratulate him on doing this. There is a huge amount of history going back hundreds of years, as we have heard from the member. This bill is now putting right aspects of that in terms of the New Zealand Mission Trust and the handover to the new trust, which is the \u014Ctamataha Trust, on behalf of the hap\u016B of Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt is wonderful when you go to Tauranga and you look around this particular area of the headland and the central business district, because it has a huge amount of history. To go into the mission house grounds there, with the beautiful historic home that is there, the library, the other buildings, and also the trees and garden that surround it\u2014this is an important part of New Zealand\u2019s history, very similar to the mission house at Waitangi and other mission houses around the country. It is very fitting, therefore, that in this Parliament we are able to transfer this over to the new trust, which is part of the local community, the local hap\u016B, so that they will administer it and take what was very old legislation and update it to a modern situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill is good for the people of Tauranga. It is good for the local hap\u016B and local iwi. It brings the legislation into a modern context and it allows the trustees to now move forward with a lot more certainty. New Zealand First certainly supports this going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. We will be supporting this through. This is a good, sensible piece of legislation, which the member can be proud to have brought to this House, and we support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0b0b893cc5a4e25a927fab818be02c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0b0b893cc5a4e25a927fab818be02c5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou. Me k\u014Drero i te tuatahi i t\u014D t\u0101tou Reo M\u0101ori m\u014D t\u0113nei pire e p\u0101 ana ki te h\u0101hi i whakatipungia ai ahau, me te whenua o \u014D t\u0101tou huanga M\u0101ori i roto o Tauranga Moana. Me mahara t\u0101tou, \u0101 te T\u012Bhema te w\u0101 o te Kirihimete, ka pau te 200 tau m\u014D te ekenga mai o te whakapono ki Aotearoa. Ko te kaimau mai ko H\u0101muera M\u0101tenga. Ko te w\u0101hi i tau mai ai ia, ko \u014Cihi. Ko te kaum\u0101tua nana ia i whakatau, ko Ruatara. N\u0101, k\u012Bhai rawa r\u0101tou i noho ki t\u0113n\u0101 pito, ki Rangihoua m\u014D te hia roa, k\u0101tahi r\u0101tou ka whakatat\u016B me neke ki w\u0101hi k\u0113. N\u014D muri noa nei, ka tae mai ng\u0101 mihinare i raro i te whakahaere \u0101 Te W\u012Bremu. N\u0101, ko tetahi o ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B p\u0113nei i te H\u0101hi Mihingare i whai pakiaka ai ki roto o Tauranga Moana hei torotoro, hei whakawh\u0101nui atu i te whakapono. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAr\u0101 noa atu wetahi k\u014Drero i puta i te koretake o te h\u0101hi \u0113ngari, kaua t\u0101tou e p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113 he kino te katoa o ng\u0101 mahi i oti i te r\u014Dp\u016B nei m\u014D te iwi M\u0101ori. N\u0101 \u014Dku m\u0101tua o roto o Ng\u0101puhi a Hongi Hika m\u0101 i whakat\u016Bpato i Te Ao M\u0101ori. Ko te kararehe hei whakamataku i \u014D tamariki, i \u014D mokopuna, ko te koti whero, \u0113hara ko ng\u0101 mihinare. N\u0101, kia wh\u0101rikitia e ahau i te tuatahi, e Te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, he k\u014Drero p\u0113r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us once again. But first I must address in our M\u0101ori language this bill, which relates to the Church I was brought up in and relates to the land that belongs to our fellow M\u0101ori relations in Tauranga. We must remember that in the coming December at Christmas time, 200 years will have passed since the arrival of the faith in New Zealand. The bearer was Samuel Marsden. \u014Cihi was where he landed and Ruatara the elder was the one who welcomed him. They had not stayed at that end, at Rangihoua, for any length of time when they decided to move elsewhere. It was later on that the missionaries arrived under the tutelage of Williams. One of these missionary groups like the Church of England established itself in Tauranga, reconnoitred the area, and expanded the faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EMuch has been expressed about how useless the Church has been, but we must never be deluded by the fact that what this group did for the M\u0101ori people was not all bad. My elders from within Ng\u0101puhi\u2014Hongi Hika and others\u2014cautioned M\u0101oridom: the beast that our children and grandchildren will fear will indeed be the redcoats and not the missionaries. And thus I need to lay out a statement like that first.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis hap\u016B, Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho, and I have an association that goes back to an incident involving the library in Tauranga Moana. A chap by the name of Hone Ngata, since disappeared\u2014passed away, should I say\u2014who was married to a leading woman of this tribe Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho, a kaum\u0101tua by the name of K\u014Dp\u016B, and a host of others occupied that particular library. The occupation turned very sour when the police, just to show that they did not discover their foul ways in the T\u016Bhoe raid, sent the police dogs into the Tauranga library in order to dislodge the occupiers. As a consequence, a fire broke out. Considerable damage was inflicted upon the books, the library, and the members of that hap\u016B who were seeking to recover their rights that they had lost, I would say, broadly through the process of colonisation but, more to the point, through the nexus of Crown action and the Church of England. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI cannot help but think about those people\u2014indeed, one of them, a P\u0101keh\u0101 chap who went to my old school, St Stephen\u2019s School\u2014who made unsuccessful attempts in what is a pretty conservative area, Tauranga Moana, to push their agenda. That was in the late 1980s. When we pass a bill like this, the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill, it is good that we recite a little of the unknown history so that the efforts and the names of the members of that hap\u016B\u2014as I said, most of whom have moved on\u2014are recorded, because this is the people\u2019s House and we are talking about a group of people here who have received back from the Anglican Church a small portion of their former estate. Naturally, I acknowledge Te Ururoa Flavell and follow on from what others have said. I am looking forward to hearing what my colleagues on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee say about this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe tend to regard the centres of M\u0101oridom in the Bay of Plenty as being T\u016Bhoe, Te Arawa, and Whakat\u0101ne, but there is a proud and rich history that has been eclipsed in Tauranga Moana, belonging to the tangata whenua, and this makes a small step for\u2014and I suppose that when you mention the name Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho to the average P\u0101keh\u0101, they cannot pronounce it for a start. It does sound a bit rude if you get the consonants around the wrong way, but that is another matter. I would say that they are a truculent group of M\u0101ori. Indeed, a number of conservative M\u0101ori did not like them, but we should be here today to support this bill, and we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022 data-id=\u00229cfdfc81932c413c88f29fc7f261901c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cfdfc81932c413c88f29fc7f261901c\u0022\u003ECLAUDETTE HAUITI (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. The National Party will be supporting this private bill, the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill, in the name of M\u0101ori Party MP Te Ururoa Flavell, going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EWhat we are effectively doing here is amending a century-old trust. We have heard the story of the New Zealand Mission Trust, as well as Samuel Marsden. When I hear the name Samuel Marsden, I recall an area in Sydney, in Parramatta, on New Zealand Street where Samuel Marsden had his market gardens. He had a mission there and he established an agricultural college there. A lot of our rangatira were encouraged to send their boys there to learn how to grow kai\u2014as though we, at that time, did not know how to grow kai. However, three of our tamaiti, our rangatahi, from Ng\u0101puhi were sent to Samuel Marsden\u2019s mission in Parramatta, on New Zealand Street. It was during a time when influenza was running rampant through Australia, and our rangatahi there caught the flu. Three of our rangatahi, to cool themselves off, placed their feet in the Parramatta River, and subsequently they passed away. It was not until quite a few months later that their parents were told of their passing. However, unfortunately, they were never brought home. Whether at the time their parents, their papa or their mama, wanted them returned home or not, I am not sure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EHowever, in the mid-1990s a very large ope, thanks to Wairua Tapu Church in Sydney, was invited by the council in Sydney to bless the area before the building on the site was demolished and then turned into a car park. So Wairua Tapu arranged a very large ope, and the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League and the M\u0101ori Council brought iwi from Aotearoa over there to bless the area. What they thought would take a few hours took, in fact, almost 48 hours\u2014obviously, they had a break\u2014but they felt that the area was so deep and rich in our history and our wairua that they were not able to leave without it being blessed to the extent that they thought it needed to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003ESo that is part of our connection with the Mission Trust. It was not just around Aotearoa but it extended its arm right across the Tasman to Poih\u0101kena, too. So with the assistance of Samuel Marsden, we also have a very deep connection to the Kurranulla people, who are over in Poih\u0101kena. As I said, the New Zealand Mission Trust is a remnant of the first missionaries in the 19th century and I think that this deed, the original deed\u2014and I would like to congratulate Te Ururoa Flavell, the MP, on his generosity in stating that it was a deed of its time. This bill, therefore, is a bill of its time, its relevance, and its pertinence today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EWe have also got to remember that this bill is not a precedent. In fact, there was something very similar in 1986. A similar issue arose, with money and investments derived from lands held by the Mission Trust in Port Waikato. It was to be transferred to Ng\u0101ti K\u0101rewa and Ng\u0101ti T\u0101hina, and the result was the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Port Waikato Maraetai) Empowering Act of 1986. With this bill the return of the land is highly significant to the hap\u016B of Ng\u0101ti Tapu and Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. The hap\u016B say that it will re-establish their connection to the awa\u2014to the water\u2014and provide income to the hap\u016B, and, as my colleague said, it comes on the 150th anniversary of Gate P\u0101. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022 data-id=\u0022578964824ce14dd9935c8f45347ef785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022578964824ce14dd9935c8f45347ef785\u0022\u003ELOUISA WALL (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure and privilege to speak on the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill. I initially want to mihi to my colleague Te Ururoa Flavell for sponsoring this bill, and also to the wh\u0101nau of \u014Ctamataha Trust, e ng\u0101 hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Tapu me Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho wh\u0101nau in Tauranga Moana, whose lands will be returned to them [to the subtribes of Ng\u0101ti Tapu, the family of Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho in Tauranga]. My contribution really is to highlight that this continues to be part of New Zealand\u2019s truth and reconciliation process. It highlights our colonisation history from the perspective of the missionaries\u2019 contribution to creating relationships with tangata whenua, which then eventuated in lands of tangata whenua being placed in such entities as the Church Missionary Society. I want to acknowledge that the society was established on 12 April 1799. In fact, its mission was to spread the word of the Lord and the Gospel, but it was also to go to parts of the world, including Aotearoa New Zealand, and create an asset base and a capital base that has meant that lands such as the land that is being returned via this private bill was taken so that the Church could establish itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EWhen looking at this piece of legislation and the history, it is interesting to note that the Church made its first voyage here in 1814, via its representative Samuel Marsden. Over a period of 30 years what it did was establish itself to a point where it developed the relationship with tangata whenua, which meant that it could give us blankets, axes, adzes, trousers, soap, the New Testament, scissors, spades, looking glasses, razors, handkerchiefs, and tobacco. Those were the commodities that it gave us in exchange for our lands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EWhat I want to acknowledge in that process is that from the beginning tangata whenua never treated it as a transaction. For us, it was part of becoming Christians, and part of that was having a relationship with the Church that meant it needed land to build its churches on. But what quickly happened was that we were displaced from a huge amount of land, and so in terms of this specific experience, what happened was that we are talking about close to 40,000 square metres of central Tauranga land that, in 1835, the Church purchased. What happened thereafter was continued dispute with the tangata whenua. The Crown intervened and in 1852 actually granted that land to the Church Missionary Society, and in 1867 the Church Missionary Society, in return, gave the Crown 80 percent of the land that it had taken from tangata whenua. I find that really interesting because what we are talking about today is the return of 20 percent of the original piece of land that the Church Missionary Society had. So the tangata whenua get 20 percent back by virtue of this private bill, but I am actually interested in the 80 percent that the Crown was gifted in 1867. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003EBut what I do want to acknowledge is that over a period of time the Church Missionary Society obviously developed a philosophy about this land and the fact that it needed to give it back to tangata whenua. So I want to acknowledge that from 1998 it replaced the trustees of the New Zealand Mission Trust Board with tangata whenua representatives, and what this bill will do is ensure that those lands, that property, are transferred to the \u014Ctamataha Trust. It will be a tangata whenua trust and it will benefit the hap\u016B beneficiaries of that particular trust. Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022495524bea74947b3825cb2509aaa6b46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022495524bea74947b3825cb2509aaa6b46\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand and speak on the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill in its first reading, and I commend the M\u0101ori Party MP Te Ururoa Flavell for bringing it to the House. This is a private bill in his name. It seeks to return transferred land in Tauranga and other property from the New Zealand Mission Trust to the \u014Ctamataha Trust so that it can be used by the beneficiaries of that trust, the hap\u016B of that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIt is going to be interesting as we go through this bill in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and as we look at the history of events. I want to make the comment that we do hear sometimes, I guess, a converged history of what has happened here in New Zealand, and not all of it, in terms of the missionary work, is as bad as some people may portray. As we go to the select committee, I would like to ensure also that the good is acknowledged as well. I think not particularly of this area but of one of my own forebears, John Hobbs, who, during the Northern War in 1845-46, used his influence with a number of Hokianga chiefs to limit the spread of the fighting, and during other wars he used his influence among warring entities in order to seek to preserve life. I think that through all of these things, yes, there are things that need to be redressed, there are histories that have to be acknowledged, and there are things that need to be put right, but let us be careful and let us also reflect the good that has happened in our country in the past. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022615c9f40315945c19a5fa55e4dbd40c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022615c9f40315945c19a5fa55e4dbd40c8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Te Ururoa Flavell, 5 minutes in reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3b2d6c906594d19a0538ff5de1c7421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3b2d6c906594d19a0538ff5de1c7421\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, can I acknowledge all of the statements made by members of the House this afternoon. I appreciate very much the support, and it sounds like it is across the House for this bill, the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Otamataha) Empowering Bill. Can I just own up and say that the work that I did was relatively minimal, and I acknowledge again Alan Tate, who was the adviser to the \u014Ctamataha Trust, who basically over the last couple of years has been the communication person for me, through my office and, of course, through the trust\u2014so thank you to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere are some interesting points I picked up in the discussion, and in the couple of minutes that I have got, just to wrap up, I say that I am sure we will learn a lot of history when we go to Tauranga Moana and pick up much of the discussion when submitters present evidence in front of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. It reminds me of another bill that we had in the House here not long ago that related to sewage pipes and a large chunk of area of land being handed back to the Tauranga people that was originally taken for a sewage pond. Those sorts of things, I think, very much stick in the hearts of M\u0101ori people, but I do acknowledge the point that Jonathan Young has made. Sure, there were some good things that came with the arrival of the missionaries, but some things very much stick in the heart, especially if you have been hanging out for a long period of time to get your land back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis for me is a very important bill because I do not recall\u2014not that I am the expert in it\u2014that there are too many times that the Anglican Church has handed land back to M\u0101ori people. But in my area, my constituency, the T\u016Bhoe people up at Maungap\u014Dhatu received some land back from the Presbyterian Church, I think it was, through Mr Laughton, who had a close association with Rua K\u0113nana back in the day. They set the scene a couple of years ago because they started handing land back, but there is a hell of a lot of land out there that is still under the auspices of a number of churches that has not come back to the M\u0101ori people, and I hope that the precedent set with these sorts of bills is going to be some good news for years to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI do not think we can deny, too, some of the main thoughts of the missionaries as they came to New Zealand, because they are pretty much set out in a lot of the doctrine that was set up at the time. I am thinking about my old school, St Stephen\u2019s School\u2014Mr Jones\u2019 school as well\u2014which pretty much had a set charter, if you like, which was about educating the uneducated and, indeed, young M\u0101ori boys. Some of them were heathen\u2014Mr Jones, well, I am not too sure about that, but nevertheless he is all right; he came good after a couple of years at St Stephen\u2019s, but he has sort of faded away a little bit since that time. Mr Hone Harawira is another old boy\u2014a sort of similar pattern, but nevertheless they might come good at some point or other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI have to say that I do cringe at times at some of the actions by the Church. When I was teaching Treaty education we always referred to two doctrines of the time, of both the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church. One was called the papal bull, set out by the Pope, which I suppose set the scene for colonisation throughout the world, and the other one, under the Anglican doctrine, was called the requiremento\u2014meaning you were required to read a certain statement. Both of those statements were about \u201CTake the land, take the women, and if anybody gets in the road deal to them, and do it in the name of God.\u201D Under those circumstances we have got a lot of work to do to catch up with those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI do not want to take up too much time, but I think the key point that was made by Louisa Wall around the reconciliation process is important\u2014that we are on that line, in particular, with the efforts around settling Treaty settlements, and that the work that has been done by Mr Chris Finlayson is along the way. Talking about the other 80 percent, as Louisa Wall said, it will be interesting to see what the people think about the other 80 percent of land that might come back to them. For those who are travelling through Tauranga Moana, I think the easiest way to find this place is to look for the best fish and chip shop in Tauranga Moana, down on the harbour\u2014they are blinking nice fish and chips from the Palmer wh\u0101nau, I think it is. They look after that fish and chip shop, and I hope they give me free fish and chips when I go up next time. But also the Sebel Hotel is sitting right on that land. It has all been reclaimed, I think, right on the harbour. If you are flying over there, I am sure you cannot miss it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI look forward to hearing the stories from the people up in Tauranga Moana and congratulate them on advancing this bill. Today I think of the koroua M\u014Drehu\u2014the old koroua up there at Ng\u0101i Tamar\u0101waho. I am sure that he would be pretty proud to finally get this land in their hands. Ka nui te mihi kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBill referred to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294426e0e9eda422fa16fe094100bafd3\u0022\u003EConservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c35d0c385d7e42a688ef93483976e13d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228d7a93ff14ab4dd39a01370cc5e54254\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d7a93ff14ab4dd39a01370cc5e54254\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question for the purposes of debate and voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a1edcca521b46dbaca980510931f73a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? It appears not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002245059b8d4a504083b5bec91cfd4d7eff\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 6 and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002237d2a9c77603424e8ed3347eb9118314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237d2a9c77603424e8ed3347eb9118314\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E The Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill amends six of the main Acts administered by the Department of Conservation. Those Acts are the Conservation Act 1987, the National Parks Act 1980, the Reserves Act 1977, the Wildlife Act 1953, the Wild Animal Control Act 1977, and latterly\u2014and I will come to this later\u2014the Marine Mammals Protection Act 1978. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI would like to outline to the Committee five key aspects of the changes that are set out in the bill. The purpose of these changes is to better safeguard New Zealand\u2019s protected native wildlife, public conservation lands, and other natural and historic resources. To do so, the changes seek to create effective deterrents against conservation-related offending, with a clearly formulated and consistent penalty framework that is in line with the modern era. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe key changes are to provide significant penalties for illegal activities carried out for commercial gain of a maximum of 5 years\u2019 imprisonment, a $300,000 fine, or both, and an additional fine of $20,000 a day if the offence is ongoing. This will greatly reduce the incentive for such offending. The bill increases penalties for serious offending that is not commercially motivated to a maximum of 2 years\u2019 imprisonment, a fine of $100,000, or both. If the offence is a continuing one, there may also be an additional maximum fine of $10,000 a day. The bill increases the maximum fines for offending by bodies corporate to $200,000, or to $300,000 where the offending is commercially motivated. It increases the penalties for breaches of regulations and by-laws made under these Acts to a maximum fine of $5,000, or $10,000 in some specific cases, plus an additional maximum fine of $500 a day if the offence is ongoing. It improves the courts\u2019 flexibility to tailor appropriate penalties by enabling the courts to impose a penalty of imprisonment or a fine, or both, and providing for community work sentences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E I would note to the Committee that the bill does not amend the Marine Reserves Act. The Minister of Conservation intends to amend penalties in that Act through a separate legislative process. I want to also note to the Committee that the additional daily fines for ongoing offences are amended only where the relevant Act already provides for such fines. The bill does not propose any new fines of this type. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo these improved penalties and more flexible sentencing options apply across the six Acts that I have mentioned. I will go through those Acts. Part 1 of the bill amends the Conservation Act, as I have described. The new penalties primarily relate to offences committed in places protected under the Conservation Act, but also include offences involving freshwater fish and their habitat. The bill increases fines for breaches of regulations only, as the Conservation Act does not provide for by-laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 2 amends the National Parks Act. Likewise, it amends the penalties under the National Parks Act. These will apply to illegal activities in all of New Zealand\u2019s national parks. The bill increases fines for breaches of by-laws only, as the National Parks Act does not provide for regulations. Maximum fines for breaches of by-laws involving aircraft in national parks are set at a higher level of $10,000, as such breaches are potentially more serious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 3 amends the Reserves Act for all reserves, including those administered by the Department of Conservation, local bodies, boards, and other administering bodies. The bill increases fines for breaches of both Reserves Act by-laws and regulations. The bill sets penalties for national and other reserves at the same level. This is because the new higher penalties provide better scope for courts to take into account factors including, but not limited to, the status of the particular reserve, the values contained in that reserve, and the seriousness of the particular offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 4 amends the Wildlife Act, as I have described previously, with some variations, which I will go through. Absolutely and partially protected native species will have their protection increased by the higher new maximum penalties of 2 years\u2019 imprisonment or a $100 fine, or both. An existing slightly higher maximum fine of $250,000 is retained for offences against absolutely and partially protected marine species. Offending in wildlife refuges and wildlife management reserves will have a maximum penalty of 1 year\u2019s imprisonment or a $100,000 fine, or both. Wildlife sanctuaries have higher status and will attract the 2-year maximum imprisonment penalty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EExisting additional per head fines are removed, as these are rarely used. The courts can take the number of animals affected into account as an aggravating or mitigating factor\u2014aggravating, I would hope. Penalties for offences involving game birds or unprotected wildlife, such as introduced species, are not changed by this bill, and neither are the penalties for failing to report accidentally killing or injuring protected marine life during fishing. The bill increases fines for breaches of regulations only, as the Wildlife Act does not provide for by-laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 5 amends the Wild Animal Control Act, as I have described. The higher new penalties apply to offences such as aerial hunting without landowner permission and unlawfully releasing wild animals. The bill increases fines for breaches of regulations only, as the Wild Animal Control Act does not provide for by-laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 6 of the bill amends the Marine Mammals Protection Act. Thanks go to Maryan Street and the Local Government and Environment Committee for their work in bringing this amendment to the bill. I thank the member for that good work. Higher standard penalties apply to offences, including illegally taking or killing marine mammals, harassing them, or using a purse seine net without escape panels. An existing, slightly higher maximum fine of $250,000 is retained for illegally taking marine mammals. Changes to the Marine Mammals Protection Act do not change penalties for failing to report accidentally killing or injuring marine mammals during fishing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI have gone through the changes proposed in this bill at some length. I want to thank the House and the Committee for consideration of this bill and for your support of our special places and species, which are backed by this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d55f34c76b054867a29e61cd21ca241b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d55f34c76b054867a29e61cd21ca241b\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I am really pleased to be able to take a call or two in the Committee stage of the Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill. Can I begin by commending the member Jacqui Dean, in whose name the bill stands before the House, and say that it is a very good bill. I appreciate the way that she engaged with the Local Government and Environment Committee, and I particularly appreciate the fact that she acknowledged my colleague Maryan Street for her work. I think that is a very good attitude and a very good basis on which to progress the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ELabour will certainly be giving its support to the bill. It does things that are sensible. Even though it was a good bill to start with, it was substantially improved and it was made even better at the select committee. I think that is also a tribute to all the select committee members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0d319fa14834e828c3dbd0722fc6637\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s like peace is breaking out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f254db176f44d428c22b65869146996\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, perhaps we could quit now. Peace seems to have broken out, as my colleagues say. [Interruption] No, I am enjoying it. It is a good bill and the select committee did good work as well. So, as I say, it is a pleasure to support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI wonder what went through the minds of the members or the leaders of the House\u2014the Hon Gerry Brownlee, the Hon Anne Tolley, and the Hon Steven Joyce\u2014when this bill was due to come up on this particular night. Well, I am sure that they would have seen the title of the bill and thought \u201CConservation? Actually, I think we\u2019ve had enough discussion about conservation in the House in the last little while.\u201D, because, of course, the Minister of Conservation, the Hon Nick Smith, has been figuring quite highly in the last 2 weeks as a result of his inconsistent representations to the House and to the public. So it is good that this bill\u2014even though it deals with the Minister of Conservation\u2019s legislation\u2014is going to be so well supported, and that comments that are made about it are going to be consistent rather than highly questionable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe member Jacqui Dean went through the bill in quite some detail. I think that if you go from the starting point of the fact that this is a member\u2019s bill rather than a Government bill, and look at what the member Jacqui Dean sought to do, it is a really sensible place to start, because the penalties regime was clearly outdated and clearly inconsistent. This bill brings it into a much more realistic state, where the penalties that are imposed on people will serve the purpose. The penalties will give those people a wake-up call. They will make them pay the price for any damage that they have done. We can go into the details of what the penalties might do later, but for any of the penalties that are incurred, they now have a penalty that is considered relevant by this Parliament to the damage that has been done. I think that is a very good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EAt the select committee, Maryan Street proposed that a new Part 6 be added to the penalty regime, so that the Marine Mammals Protection Act 1978 was also updated in the same way as the other pieces of legislation. As Jacqui Dean has noted, that was a move that was innovative. So I think that the Hon Maryan Street should be congratulated on that forethought, but also that the select committee should be congratulated on supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThere is a frustration that is often shared in this Parliament about the framing of the conservation debate. I think it is one that is worthy of mention at the moment, given that this is the topic before us. It is certainly topical in a number of other areas where the current Government has seen conservation and the environment, actually, as being something that needs to be balanced off against proposals and against things that might give us economic gain. In my view, that is not the appropriate way to view the environment, conservation, and the economy, because if you lose some of the value of the conservation estate, it is gone for ever. The overall value to the economy of our conservation estate is very high. New Zealand has a lot of things to offer, but our biggest attraction is our natural environment. People come to New Zealand because of that. They enjoy it, they go back home and tell other people about it, and it is something that many other countries envy. We enjoy so much in New Zealand because of the land, the environment that we have around us, and these are often things that can be enjoyed at no cost, which, again, is something that other countries are very envious of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo we need to do our best to always offer protection. If you start your frame of thinking with \u201CWell, we have got some conservation values here, but we have got some potential economic gain there, and those need to be balanced off.\u201D, then I think you are likely to get the wrong answer. In my view, you need to say that there are some things that are so precious that it is our responsibility, whether in law or just from a moral standpoint, to protect those values and those precious parts of our country\u2014whether it is the water, whether it is the land, or whether it is other landscapes and fauna and flora. That is the frame that I think we need to bring to the conservation debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThis bill actually contributes in many ways, because it comes from the starting point of saying that people who break the law, people who do damage, should actually have a penalty attached to that action that reflects the upset that New Zealand society feels at their action. The previous penalties were wildly out of date and also inconsistent, depending on what action was taken and also where it was taken. So that did not give a strong message about the value of the conservation estate, in the same way as the National Party\u2019s frame of balancing up conservation versus economic development sends the wrong message to the public of New Zealand. The message that we should be giving is that we are the guardians of our land and of our sea. We are responsible for what future generations will have to enjoy, and that is a responsibility that we should take very seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by also noting the fantastic work that the officials did on the committee. It is often, I think, a pretty frustrating task being an official who is dedicated to the work that they are doing. They are, in the main, and I have seen very few exceptions to this, high quality public servants\u2014oh, they should be sitting down here in the Chamber. There are some really nice green seats down the front that officials are able to use sometimes, but these particular officials are shy and they are getting more embarrassed by the minute, as they are clearly in the range. We cannot refer to where they are, of course, because that is against Standing Orders, but they are certainly within earshot of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOn this bill I want to commend the quality of the work from the officials. I know that officials can often get frustrated by what they see as game-playing with important pieces of legislation that they might have worked very hard on. This bill would have come as a surprise to them because it was a member\u2019s bill, not a Government bill. I think that the thought they gave to it and the contribution that they made really allowed, as I said earlier, quite substantial changes to be made during the select committee process, which were unanimously agreed and which will now be progressed through the Committee. I know that the Department of Conservation officials, particularly, have had a really hard time in the last little while. The department\u2019s funding has been cut back over the last 4 years. It has had big restructuring, and for the staff who are there, these have been pretty stressful and trying times. The most recent incident was where there had been a whistleblower who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207f547956bbf4780aff3ca07b0c8c752\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a61b4c47374a1b90a32fe8b9ea7fc6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014raised the issue of the submission from the Department of Conservation on the Ruataniwha Dam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1238a5e95bb4eeaa1e9525204da78df\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Concentrate on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264daaf1ae5814c39be0b6b0fe91eacfd\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, there will be further uncertainty within the department, so for those officials to come to the select committee to look at this bill, and to support us in the way they did, is not just a commendation for their professionalism but also a recognition of what else is happening in their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWith those highly relevant comments, I want to again commend the member for her vision in introducing this bill and to thank the select committee members for their substantive work on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd29757f624f49c9bcd49c5e8f40c7f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd29757f624f49c9bcd49c5e8f40c7f9\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I too am very happy to support this Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill, brought to the House by my colleague Jacqui Dean. It is a very timely bill. As the Hon Ruth Dyson said, everyone on the Local Government and Environment Committee worked hard to make sure that we got a good outcome, and it was fully supported. As has already been stated, the purpose of the bill is to update penalties across conservation legislation in order to better protect conservation land and protect native species. The bill increases the penalties for offences across six pieces of legislation administered by the Department of Conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIt was the smuggling of jewelled geckos from the Waitaki Basin that raised the issue for Jacqui Dean. Smugglers were very active in her electorate, and the penalties for stealing these very beautiful and very valuable geckos\u2014they are worth up to $25,000 each on the international market\u2014were laughably low. We know that the smugglers were very active in her electorate because we managed to catch some of them at customs. We had one smuggler who had nearly a dozen geckos secreted around his person. We also know that there were many smugglers who were spending time in Jacqui\u2019s electorate and getting away with smuggling. Jewelled geckos have unique markings on their bodies, and we knew where some of them were living. One day they would be in the Waitaki Basin; the next day you would see their pictures on the internet. They were being marketed to collectors in Europe. We did catch some of those smugglers, but when we caught them, the penalties were nothing to write home about. In fact, they did not punish and they did not deter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThere has been other serious conservation offending in recent years. We have all been disturbed by the killing of marine mammals. We do not like the illegal hunting of protected species and illegal, commercially motivated activities, including the smuggling of animals and plants, the draining of wetlands, and the logging of native trees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIt is very important to have significant penalties for illegal, commercially motivated activities because they can be highly lucrative. These new penalties respond in part to the comment by judges when sentencing those very gecko smugglers that the current penalties were not sufficient to punish or deter offenders. These penalties will not affect legitimate operators, such as tourism concessionaires, if they play fair. Increased penalties are also proposed for non-commercial offences and for breaches of by-laws and regulations across all six Acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI too would like to thank the officials. They did a lot of work on this bill. They did it with assiduous care. They worked very hard with us, and I think we are all very pleased to see this legislation coming out at the other end. We were unanimous in our support around the table. We all believe that there should be stronger penalties for conservation offending. We want to protect our natural heritage. Thank you, Jacqui Dean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022105d44f5fb9445b4a1c003243cb1ecb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022105d44f5fb9445b4a1c003243cb1ecb9\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to rise to support this Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill in the name of Jacqui Dean at the Committee stage. I too would like to join the wave of unanimity and harmony and peace that has broken out in the Committee over this bill and say that it gives me great pleasure, indeed, to support it. In fact, I want to thank Jacqui Dean for her gracious acknowledgment of the contribution I was able to make on this bill by extending it to cover the Marine Mammals Protection Act 1978. I will come back to that in a moment, because the purpose of the inclusion of that Act in this bill will become clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut I have to say that in the course of thinking about whether or not there was something more that could be done with this bill, there were a number of recent cases of harm to marine mammals that had come to public attention. I must confess that I approached the Minister of Conservation, Dr Nick Smith, and asked him whether he would oppose or be averse to the inclusion of the Marine Mammals Protection Act and penalties under that Act in this bill, so that in the process of making penalties consistent across a range of Acts, we could include harm done to marine mammals. He was very enthusiastic about that incorporation and, in fact, signalled a review of marine mammals legislation and marine Acts in general, which I understand he is pursuing. He was very gracious, and I want to give him credit for that. Notwithstanding the difficulties he is facing currently, I believe credit should go where credit is due, and, after all, every dog has his day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAs far as this bill is concerned, the purpose that Jacqui Dean brought to the Local Government and Environment Committee was to ensure that New Zealand\u2019s wildlife and natural and historic resources would be better protected. This was her motivation. I applaud her for that. It was a worthwhile effort, and, in the course of the select committee, I think we have jointly made some constructive improvements around the table at the select committee that have strengthened even further the capability of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe problem had been that across a range of pieces of legislation the penalties differed. It was entirely possible to commit an offence and have it receive a negligible penalty under one piece of legislation and a different penalty under another\u2014for example, if someone were to release a stoat on to a nature reserve, the highest penalty would be $500 or 1 month\u2019s imprisonment. Under the National Parks Act 1980, if a bit of a national park was carved off and converted to pasture or a stand of trees milled, the highest penalty would have been a maximum fine of $2,500 or 3 months\u2019 imprisonment. However, if the same offences happened in a conservation area, then the maximum penalty would be $10,000 or 12 months\u2019 jail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ETypically, the national parks\u2019 protected areas were of higher value than conservation areas. But when it came to the creatures that inhabit these, for us, special areas, the range of penalties made no sense\u2014made absolutely no sense. Obviously, the situation that my colleague Nicky Wagner referred to a moment ago, arising out of the member Jacqui Dean\u2019s own electorate of Waitaki, where the smuggling of jewelled geckos was becoming rife and hugely lucrative for the people who were engaged in it, was impetus enough for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut what we have done in this bill, which I think is highly commendable, is that we have taken the Conservation Act 1987, the National Parks Act 1980, the Reserves Act 1977, the Wildlife Act 1953, the Wild Animal Control Act 1977, and, added to that, the Marine Mammals Protection Act 1978, and we have brought them all under the same penalty regime. So there can be no more obfuscation around damage to, harm to, stealing of, or smuggling of creatures that are precious to us, whether they be eggs or whether they be live specimens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ENow we have changed that\u2014or at least we will with the passage of this legislation currently in its Committee stage. Most penalties are increased to up to $100,000 for individuals and $200,000 for individuals who are acting for commercial reasons or for a company. Ongoing daily penalties are increased to up to $10,000 and $20,000, respectively, for individuals and those working on behalf of a company. Breaches of by-laws incur up to $5,000 or $10,000 penalties. This two-tiered kind of regime will make not only the monitoring but the implementation and the prosecution of this legislation consistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESo at the moment we have\u2014without wishing to comment unduly on a case before the court\u2014a case of a Blenheim man in front of the Nelson court currently on charges of killing 13 female breeding seals at a seal colony on the Kaik\u014Dura coast, two bulls, and eight seal pups. Because of the difference in the regimes under different pieces of legislation, he is being tried under a piece of legislation that will have far lesser consequences for him than if he were being tried under another piece of legislation. That was then, and he will be tried according to the law in place at the time of the alleged crime, so that is happening as we speak. But no more after this; once this bill gets to its third reading, people will not be able to pick and choose which piece of legislation they will contest their crime under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe police will have an easier job of prosecuting under different pieces of legislation because the penalties will be comparable. So it will be easier for the police to make sure that the actions will be dealt with consistently in terms of penalties, regardless of the particular piece of legislation they are charging a person under. That has got to be helpful. We need to protect our special fauna in this country, and that extends to marine mammals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI would also like to add my congratulations to the officials on the work they did. They advised us in a way that was impartial but very committed. They were very committed to what they were doing. I recognise this as a feature of staff who work in the Department of Conservation and I thank them for it. There are fewer and fewer of them as the days go by, but the ones who still remain are absolutely committed to the conservation of our endangered species and our special species in our jurisdictional area. I thank the officials for their advice and for the way they made sure that what we were doing in this bill was consistent throughout. I commend the bill to the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u00222aa97dc351cb4aaab087bfb6c13ea8da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aa97dc351cb4aaab087bfb6c13ea8da\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E It is with great pleasure that I talk to the Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill. As many have said, it is a member\u2019s bill with enormous merit. It is an omnibus bill, which will be heard in one part, of course, and its purpose is to increase the penalties in the main enactments administered by the Department of Conservation. It is all about, as many have said already in other readings, consistency. It is about making people aware of the problems and making, through the various Acts, a clear picture of what will happen if you do the wrong thing by our flora and fauna, and now, I should say, marine mammals as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI think, as others have mentioned, that this bill has been a particularly harmonious bill at the Local Government and Environment Committee. There were no changes, really, that were put through that were not agreed to. That sort of harmony, if you like, was also evident in the submissions we heard. We heard only one, from the New Zealand Law Society, and eight submissions were received in support. The submissions were very helpful and very useful. They talked about the value of higher penalty levels, the need for a consistent approach\u2014all of the things, effectively, that came out in the ultimate bill that we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI must say that one of the submissions that stood out for me was from Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu, the board of Ng\u0101i Tahu. It talked about the need to have consistency and the need to put some money into some positive steps towards entrenching kaitiakitanga from a Crown perspective and also into public education and behaviours within the community. Its point, I thought, was very well made in its written submission to us: that it is certainly about the carrot and stick approach. The stick is that the penalties had to increase\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff48832d08324420b337398348027a73\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd74e9531e7c4f1894a8d109cfb0048d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd74e9531e7c4f1894a8d109cfb0048d\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill. The Green Party supports this bill and congratulates Jacqui Dean on her work in bringing it to the House, because it will encourage compliance with conservation legislation, and by doing this it better protects our natural and historic resources and our wildlife. Jacqui Dean provided a very comprehensive summary of the bill\u2019s purpose and its contents, so I will not repeat that, but I will just say that it does not create any new offences or have any new powers, and that may account for the small number of submissions. There were eight submissions to the Local Government and Environment Committee, and all of those submissions supported the bill. None of those submissions opposed it. Submitters certainly stressed the value of higher penalties and the need for a much more consistent approach across the five pieces of legislation\u2014including the National Parks Act, the Conservation Act, and the Wildlife Act, which the bill originally dealt with. Now there are six pieces of legislation, with the addition of the Marine Mammals Protection Act. Submitters stressed the need for effective penalties to encourage compliance and they also highlighted the value of having some flexibility in terms of sentencing options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo we certainly welcome the legislation, but we do wish Jacqui Dean would encourage Government members to have a rather more consistent approach to the protection of our distinctive plants and wildlife. If you look at clause 4C of the bill, which inserts new section 43C, that has penalties in relation to \u201Cunlawful acts in respect of spawning fish:\u201D, and, in section 26ZR of the principal Act\u2014the Conservation Act\u2014to \u201Cthe use of a substance or electric device to take or destroy freshwater fish:\u201D. Under the principal Act, because of this bill, the courts will be able to impose a sentence of imprisonment of up to 2 years or a fine of $100,000 if you do anything to interfere with spawning fish or if you put a hazardous substance or a narcotic substance in the water with the intention of killing fish. Yet the very same department, the Department of Conservation, which is able to prosecute those offences with those penalties, is not able to put evidence in front of the board of inquiry on the Tukituki catchment proposal, which would show how the intensive agriculture and irrigation that that catchment proposal enables could kill about 18 species of native fish in the Tukituki River, because when the nutrient runoff\u2014the nitrogen that is associated with intensive agriculture\u2014seeps into waterways, you get more algal blooms and you get conditions that are toxic to fish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis bill increases the penalties for harming fish. Yet when the very same department with the very same statutory responsibilities to advocate for conservation, to preserve as far as practicable all indigenous freshwater fisheries, to protect recreational freshwater fisheries\u2014the purposes that this bill is based on\u2014tries to carry out that same statutory responsibility in relation to the Tukituki catchment and in relation to the Government Ruataniwha irrigation proposal, it is not allowed to do it, because a Minister of Conservation who has been as slippery as an eel in relation to his denials of having anything to do with suppressing that Department of Conservation submission has not allowed the department to put forward evidence of how irrigation can make rivers toxic. Yet this bill is increasing the penalties for an individual who does that. So we desire more consistency across Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe welcome this bill, but we think that the department should also be allowed to carry out its statutory responsibilities for freshwater fish and for conservation advocacy in a wider sphere under the Resource Management Act, not just relating it to individuals. So we will be supporting it but it is a very great pity that the board of inquiry will not have any contestable evidence from a Government department in front of it when it considers the Tukituki catchment proposal. It will have evidence from the Ministry for Primary Industries but not from the department. Yet this bill is right on point in terms of recognising the department\u2019s responsibilities for the protection of freshwater fish and for increasing the penalties for killing fish. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00223be2af073d8d4d769a549fd379ebd0e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223be2af073d8d4d769a549fd379ebd0e4\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very good choice of yours, Mr Chair. I am taking a call on behalf of New Zealand First on Jacqui Dean\u2019s Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill. We have said in the previous reading that we would be supporting this bill. We believe that it has a lot of merit in terms of what it tries to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EI have mentioned in this Chamber before that we have had many instances where there was smuggling of some of our endangered and precious creatures, including a case where a German tourist tried to smuggle 44 Northland green geckos out of the country and was caught. That was in 2010. There was another case where some Czech botanists were convicted in 2004 for attempting to smuggle 363 wild plants, including 93 endemic orchids. This sort of thing goes on all the time. Of course, for all the cases that we do hear about and where we do apprehend the culprits, obviously, there are many that go unnoticed and where people are getting away with it. Worldwide, Interpol estimates that the smuggling of wildlife and precious species is worth in the order of $10 billion to $20 billion. So worldwide smuggling of precious flora and fauna is quite a big trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand\u2019s case we do have some unique species that are found only here in Aotearoa because of our isolation and because of the way we separated from Gondwanaland and the rest of the continents. As a result, we have some species that people in other parts of the world would very dearly love to get their hands on. So this is a good piece of legislation to increase the surveillance of that and to ensure that there are increased penalties for those who are caught and apprehended. Some of those penalties are quite hefty, going from 1 to 5 years\u2019 imprisonment, and, particularly for those who are caught doing it for commercial gain or commercial reward, penalties going up to 5 years\u2019 imprisonment, a $300,000 fine, or $20,000 per day. That sends a very strong message to anybody who feels that they wish to participate in the illicit trade in flora or fauna that this is getting into fairly serious money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut sometimes it is not always done for commercial gain. Sometimes it is done perhaps somewhat negligently, but, again, people need to be aware that there are penalties if they are negligent when it comes to New Zealand\u2019s precious fauna and flora. So there is the ability within this bill for people to be sentenced to community work and other smaller penalties if they are caught offending perhaps unwittingly in this manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe do have concerns, like some of the other Opposition parties, that although it is a good move on behalf of one National member to bring this bill to the Committee to help protect our environment, there are many other things that this National Government is doing that are flying in the face of the environment. When we look at some of the reforms in regard to the Resource Management Act, and now, particularly as we are moving towards Part 2 and clauses 6 and 7 of the Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill, we have some grave concerns in that area of the environment. So we would hope that we are not seeing a double standard here from the Government in terms of a good member, and a member on our Local Government and Environment Committee, doing a good job bringing this Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill to the Committee to improve the standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe certainly do not like the idea that on the other side of the ledger the same Government is perhaps pulling the rug out from other aspects of the environment. We do stand by our pride in having a \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D image and branding, and trying to be internationally respected for that, so it is important that we maintain that high level. In that respect we do have some concerns about what is occurring this very week in terms of the Minister of Conservation, Nick Smith, and what is happening in that whole saga. Therefore, we are perhaps seeing some double standards coming through, which we certainly do not condone and we do not wish to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EHowever, we do applaud the member Jacqui Dean for bringing this bill to the House. It is overdue. There have been now quite a considerable number of years where things have occurred and where people have got away with various things. Just to conclude, we think as a result that this bill can serve only to further the good work that has been done in the area of conservation and the environment, and we certainly support it. New Zealand First will be following this through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022 data-id=\u0022950d20ce58ef406e88b0aa61a54217dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022950d20ce58ef406e88b0aa61a54217dc\u0022\u003ECLAUDETTE HAUITI (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill sets out to better protect our w\u0101hi tapu and taonga by increasing penalties for non-compliance with laws administered by the Department of Conservation. It also implements a consistent approach to penalties across the amended laws. The bill proposes bigger fines and longer jail sentences for people who endanger our wildlife or damage our protected natural habitats. Some penalties currently in place are far too low, and there are other inconsistencies that need to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EBut this bill is more than a technical bill. This bill is safeguarding our intimate relationship between us, the people of Aotearoa New Zealand, and our natural world\u2014all that is between Ranginui and Papat\u016B\u0101nuku and including Tangaroa. This is about kaitiakitanga, the very thing that Te R\u016Bnanganui o Ng\u0101i Tahu pinpointed in its submission. This is about cultural guardianship, the system of law and lore through which we are obliged to nurture and care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EThis bill is relevant and responsible to a changing and demanding world. We are continuing to improve the environment and build a cleaner, greener, brighter future for all New Zealanders. This bill upholds our kaitiakitanga in law. Amendments are proposed to the Conservation Act, the National Parks Act, the Reserves Act, the Wildlife Act, and the Wild Animal Control Act. The bill will also apply to the Marine Mammals Protection Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EThis bill upholds our kaitiakitanga in lore\u2014as an example, keeping the two species of tuatara safe. It is helping protect the only surviving members of its order, which flourished around 200 million years ago. To M\u0101ori, tuatara are ariki and thought to be messengers of Whiro, the god of death and disaster. To some, tuatara also indicate tapu. M\u0101ori women would sometimes tattoo images of lizards, some of which may represent tuatara, near their whare tangata, or genitals, and this was in celebration of Hine-nui-te-po and her power to bring life and death to mankind, as M\u0101ui Tikitiki-a-Taranga discovered when she squashed him between her legs. The whakapapa of tuatara is just one history of a species we are protecting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EThis bill sends a strong message that we take protection of New Zealand\u2019s wildlife and natural areas very seriously. What this bill does is send a strong message to ourselves that we take seriously our role as kaitiakitanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u00224f9f280661f24e8b9ec1c718cd3d02a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f9f280661f24e8b9ec1c718cd3d02a8\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on the Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and I want to make just a few brief points when the follicly challenged one over there is quiet. Firstly, I observe that Part 6, which was inserted at the Local Government and Environment Committee, is a victory for the process of public input\u2014for this nation\u2019s citizens being able to make submissions on legislation and to improve a bill. I have been one to condemn this Government for the way it has had to put amendments to amendments to amendments and rushed because of its policy of rushing through bills, but it is great to see the democratic process working with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EThe select committee reported: \u201CWe recommend inserting new Part 6 to reflect the intention of bringing consistency to the penalties administered by the Department of Conservation.\u201D The committee went on to refer to Standing Order 288(1), which states that \u201Ca select committee may recommend only amendments that are relevant to the subject-matter of the bill, are consistent with the principles and objects of the bill \u2026\u201D. The Local Government and Environment Committee went on to say that it was confident that Part 6, which amends the Marine Mammals Protection Act, meets that requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EI suggest that it would be useful for the select committee report to record why this particular change came about\u2014that reason being that a member of the public asked for the change in a submission. Only eight submissions were received, including a learned one from the New Zealand Law Society\u2014and I will touch on that one shortly. One person asked for the change to the marine mammals law and put in just a short submission of 300 words or more. The submitter did so, firstly, because of a report on Radio New Zealand National in January this year entitled \u201CClaim of illegal fishing in marine sanctuary\u201D, and, secondly, because, at the time, submissions were being received on this bill. To cut a long story short, the select committee was convinced by the power of the argument, which spoke for itself. It was an overnight success, which we are debating just 8 months later. That is a good-news story for the public of New Zealand\u2014that input by New Zealanders into our nation\u2019s legislation can be brought to fruition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EThe next point I would like to touch on is the process that has brought us to where we are today, debating the Committee stage of the Conservation (Natural Heritage Protection) Bill and its Parts 1 to 6 and preliminary clauses. We are doing this on a members\u2019 day because the bill has been brought forward by the honourable Jacqui Dean as a member\u2019s bill. I say good on her for doing that, but she has done it because it has not been brought forward as a Government bill by successive Governments led by the last four Prime Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003ELet us look, for example, at clause 4B in Part 1 of the bill. It updates the penalties in section 39 of the Conservation Act for a person who, in the words of section 39(4) of that Act: \u201Cdisturbs, injures, poisons, kills, or detrimentally affects any freshwater fishery, fish spawning ground, or food of freshwater fish in any river, stream, lake, or any other water, by allowing any contaminant to enter into any such water or refuses to remove as much as may be practicable of the contaminant\u201D. Well, it is a mouthful, but it defines a specific offence. The provision was added to the law in 1990 by the Conservation Law Reform Act 1990, with penalties of up to $30,000 and a further fine of $3,000 a day for a continuing offence. In the intervening 23 years the quantum of the maximum penalty has not changed. The dollar amounts are the same today as they were 23 years ago, yet the value of $30,000 in 1990 was obviously far greater than the same amount today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EI frequently hear members in debate observing the importance of this House getting the regulatory framework right and of setting good policy parameters, yet too often they do not get revisited, and so we have a massive catch-up, as we see today in clause 4B of this bill, as brought forward by Jacqui Dean. The Law Society, whose submission I alluded to earlier, made four recommendations. One of the recommendations was that a review should be undertaken to ensure that the bill\u2019s penalties are consistent with the penalties specified in other enactments that protect or manage aspects of the natural environment. The Law Society suggested it would be desirable for there to be a consistent approach to penalties in all enactments that protect or manage aspects of the natural environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EPerhaps another useful step would be for Parliament to have a process for bills to specifically revise and update penalties contained in statute, as it is important constitutionally that this House sets out penalties and maximums in primary legislation. But it would do little harm for one bill in each Parliament, an omnibus bill, to be introduced to keep the penalties up to date and, as desired by the Law Society, consistent across the statute book. The Law Society suggested that it would be desirable for there to be a consistent approach to penalties in all enactments that protect or manage aspects of this national environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EFinally, I turn to clause 2, which sets out the commencement date. The clause is a good one, and I commend the honourable member Jacqui Dean for specifying a fixed date. I will support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 6 and clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203e6bb2d69994db689d9b079ccf9d90c\u0022\u003ESummary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022134026ac2b764f40b456b2453fb9b770\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000612\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 4 September.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c436b3dbe6124b82a5f404d1ab83f6e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c436b3dbe6124b82a5f404d1ab83f6e1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: When this bill was last being debated in the House we had the honourable member Iain Lees-Galloway who was speaking. Mr Lees-Galloway has 1 minute and 30 seconds remaining to speak if he so wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00224aa3fffe7f814f24b78f0ae2397c8a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aa3fffe7f814f24b78f0ae2397c8a30\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I will take that opportunity, Mr Assistant Speaker, I will. Well, they say in life that the only constant is change. In the brief period of time since I began my call on this Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill there have been some minor adjustments to the Labour line-up and, sadly, I am no longer a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which means I will not get to follow the intricate passage of this bill through the select committee process. I will not get to hear the dozens of submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222259b9f2fad54132bfb559ff3cadc270\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we could sub you on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ef9db3d21284620ab837d1e38681865\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, I could get subbed on. We could talk to the whips about that. But it is a great pity because I do respect the member Cam Calder for bringing this bill to the House. I know that the Airline Pilots\u2019 Association will be very grateful, and I do anticipate that the Airline Pilots\u2019 Association will come to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and will make a very serious contribution to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAs I said when we were last debating this, we do agree with the thrust of the bill. We think it is a little bit broad in its scope. We could narrow down the scope of the bill to the high-powered lasers, such as the one that Cam Calder demonstrated during his first contribution on the bill, rather than the lower-powered\u2014the one that the member is holding up right now\u2014ones that are used with PowerPoint presentations or entertaining domestic cats. If we could get those ones out of the legislation, focus on the real causes of the problem, then Labour would have no problem supporting this bill into\u2014[Bell rung] What did that bell mean, Mr Assistant Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022991013a2b4cc4d2ab9d337222b82ceb8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That means your time is actually up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4049fc3ec524cfa8bed95b613d12aa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4049fc3ec524cfa8bed95b613d12aa8\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to congratulate my good friend and colleague Dr Cam Calder on the excellent work he has done in progressing this Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill to this House. I am sure it will be a very proud moment when he sees this bill pass through the House. Mr Calder is a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, along with other members of this House. I would just like to acknowledge the Labour members who have worked so diligently with us on these types of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022572c066a1a41410bb7cc6ddb997c518c\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216379dafba5448e788fae41bec3975f8\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We will come to the bill, Mr McClay. Mr McClay is a good shooter and likes to play with guns, so I am sure he will be interested in what this can be about as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f045f437ebc405fa1a430cb845e58a1\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not all he plays with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c8cb60af834f41a5207b5a0bc0738c\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. But thank you, Mr Iain Lees-Galloway, for your support of the bill and your involvement with the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee as well. But this is Mr Calder\u2019s day, and well done to him. We look forward to this bill progressing through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at it, it is a preventive bill, and I think that is the nature of Mr Calder. He sees that we need to go out there and do things before they happen, and to be\u2014[Interruption] Yes, Mr McClay, I am sure that is a very generous contribution. Mr Calder has looked at a problem that he has seen out there and done something about it before it actually ended in tragic circumstances, which it could\u2014it very well could. It is one of those things that it is easy to dismiss and say that this is not going to happen, and in some bizarre circumstances it may well happen. The reality is that is exactly the time that something does happen. As Mr Calder said, there have been over 100 cases that have caused him to look at this bill and the measures he has taken here to assist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EMr Iain Lees-Galloway mentioned an issue around the degree, I guess, of laser capability. That is going to be very, very hard to actually identify and to make possible, and makes it difficult for the police in enforcing that as well. But I am sure the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee will look at that issue as we go through it. Just from a general starting point there is an issue there around how you actually determine those different classes and nature of the instruments. Mr Calder will show you one of these later on in his speech. We look forward to that demonstration. I have been lucky to touch it. I was told I am not allowed to touch this, but he has finally given it to me. It must have been all those good words I said about him. This is the instrument, which I am holding up. This is the nature of what we are looking at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c811d035b9214c0b979a95cb4b466990\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t shine it at me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241c84614c5814a8fa5e8b0a9dc434c4f\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I will not shine it at anybody. But this is the kind of thing that can cause a terrible tragedy and that could cause the loss of life. Nobody wants to see that happen, and this Parliament, with this bill, has the opportunity to take some steps to stop that happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI would just like to once again congratulate the proponent of the bill. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee looks forward to hearing submissions and working with the bill\u2019s proponent to make sure it is a reality. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022c56e60daeca641dc88355cce63f64169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c56e60daeca641dc88355cce63f64169\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it is a pleasure to take a call on the Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill. In my introductory comments I do want to congratulate Dr Cam Calder for bringing the bill to the House. I will be remaining on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. What is more, I am going to be flying the flag for Labour in the transport portfolio, which is fantastic. I am very excited about it. I am sure we will get round to talking about the Hamilton expressway at some stage, Mr Bennett. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI want to start first of all by acknowledging the pilots of these aircraft\u2014you know, the wonderful pilots who work for our wonderful national carrier, Air New Zealand. But they must be not only worrying about lasers at the moment; they would probably also be dreadfully worried about the Government\u2019s plans to partially privatise or further privatise Air New Zealand. That is probably a far greater risk to their sense of job security and safety than anything that some larrikins may do with lasers. So as I say, I want to acknowledge them and acknowledge all the people, such as the flight crew, who fly on Air New Zealand, who are feeling some uncertainty at this stage as this Government progresses its crazy asset sales programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAlthough I have congratulated Dr Cam Calder, it is tempting to say that I have to wonder why we are doing this on a members\u2019 day\u2014I do. I really have to. I have gone back\u2014and in one of my previous portfolios I was the transport safety spokesperson\u2014and this is not something that is new. In 2010 someone said: \u201CLarrikins shining lasers into the cockpits of aircraft might need to experience the full penalties of the law to remind them of the seriousness of their [actions].\u201D That was me. In 2010 I was calling on the Government to do something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIn February 2012 someone else said: \u201CThe unlawful targeting of aircraft by reckless laser users is endangering the safety of both pilots and travellers,\u201D. Who said that? That was Iain Lees-Galloway. It was in 2012 he was saying that. That is 2 years after I started this crusade about lasers with genuine concern, so I am really pleased that Dr Cam Calder has followed the lead of the Labour members on this side who have been calling for something to be done about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe are very pleased to support the bill, although, as I have said, I believe it should be a Government bill. The Government really needs to not waste members\u2019 days on things it could do itself. It could easily, easily put this into a transport bill\u2014easily\u2014or an omnibus bill. It could easily do that, and instead we could be dealing with some issues in this House that actually need to be addressed by members\u2014particularly those members on this side of the House who do not get the opportunity to put forward Government bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EHaving made those comments, congratulated the member, and said he has done a good job in doing this, we all know this is a growing problem, and it has been growing since 2010 at least\u2014at least. We know it is a growing problem, and it does need to be dealt with. We are talking about people\u2019s lives. It is a highly dangerous situation. I do feel very concerned, however, that the Minister of Transport has fobbed this off to a backbencher. He has fobbed it off to a backbencher to use up a members\u2019 day. David Bennett is now threatening me with a laser. He is now threatening me with a laser\u2014forgive my croaky voice, but I have got the lurgy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe do accept this is a serious issue. I am looking forward to discussing this in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and seeing more demonstrations\u2014seeing some more demonstrations. I am sure Dr Cam Calder, as I know the member really well, will have done his research and will have a variety of lasers to demonstrate to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am also looking forward to hearing from the pilots and other members of the public, because it is a serious issue. It is highly dangerous. It is madness, actually, to be shining lasers in the eyes of pilots who are bringing aircraft in to land or who are just flying over and above. It does put people\u2019s lives at risk, so we will support the bill. I look forward to some interesting discussion in the select committee. I just wish that the Government was doing this rather than the member, but, however, good on him for doing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00228b3d847aac89487d93491d6a3a3553cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b3d847aac89487d93491d6a3a3553cd\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a brief call on this Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill. I have to say that when the Greens first sighted this bill, we were somewhat ambivalent about it because of its inclusiveness. This point has been touched on\u2014the fact that it does, indeed, make it an offence to possess any laser pointer means that even people carrying them would have to rely on fairly thin defences based on reasonable grounds and reasonable cause. We found that slightly less than persuasive in terms of the way the bill is worded. So, as I say, we are ambivalent about it. The inclusiveness is counting against it. It does, in some way, reflect Dr Calder\u2019s personality. He is a very inclusive sort of fellow\u2014not at all of the prophylactic sort of nature that Mr Bennett referred to. I was rather surprised to hear that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EBut, more seriously, I guess I was somewhat more persuaded to support this bill, albeit we see it as flawed, when I learnt that there are something like 100 incidents a year\u2014twice a week, effectively\u2014where aircraft are endangered by misuse of these instruments, these items. I would not suggest for a minute that anybody in this House would vote according to self-interest, but it must be recognised that as MPs we all spend an awful lot of time at airports and in the air, so of all people we are quite sensitive to the safety of air travel in New Zealand. If this is occurring twice a week\u2014and, of course, I take Dr Calder at his word; I am sure it is well-grounded information\u2014then that is a very serious problem. It is almost inevitable, if it is happening a couple of times a week, that at some point a pilot will lose control through being blasted with light, losing his night vision, or whatever it might be, and we will see a tragedy occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EHaving said that, we do, nevertheless, feel that clearly the regulations are going to be put in place, and given some work through the Ministry of Health and elsewhere, to restrict the import of the high-powered instruments that are, inevitably\u2014well, they are invariably going to present some danger if they are in the wrong hands. That was part of our objection initially\u2014that the bill was focused at the wrong place, to restrict the import of these. As I understand it, I could purchase myself online tonight a very high-powered laser, and wave it about willy-nilly with very little risk of being prosecuted unless I actively sought to disrupt an aircraft or a vehicle or whatever it might be. But I do think that now it seems that regulations will be in place perhaps this year to put some serious controls around the import of these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThey do have legitimate uses, and astronomers are mentioned in this. I had the very fortunate experience about 2 years ago of visiting the Mount John Observatory in Tekap\u014D on a very dark, very cold night. In the midst of an extraordinary experience, which I would recommend to anybody who has not done it, I saw those lasers being used appropriately by astronomers and people presenting to tourists and visitors to indicate constellations. They do have legitimate uses, and I see that researchers and the Defence Force also have a reason to use these high-powered things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe notion, as the bill is drafted, is that anyone owning even a very, very low-powered, very inoffensive instrument could be liable to prosecution if they could not demonstrate reasonable cause. I think we have common ground with our Labour colleagues here. We would like to see some tightening up of the drafting, and I am sure that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee will do some creative work. I accept Dr Calder\u2019s analogy about possessing knives. Nobody is offended by someone carrying a pocket knife, but walking through an urban environment with a large hunting knife in your pocket clearly would raise some questions about your purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EBut, essentially, we see that the intention of this bill is clear\u2014and we respect that\u2014to protect air travel, drivers, people who ought to be protected from the potential dangers inherent in these very, very high-powered instruments. We do expect, and we would like to see, some redrafting of the bill, just to perhaps put some clarity about the class 1 lasers, for example, which could be exempt perhaps, but I will leave that to the select committee. So for the moment, we are supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee. We look forward to being part of the debate about making it a better bill, and achieving the ultimate goal of it, which is about protecting people from the malicious use of these things. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022 data-id=\u002299c76284fb794b1587ef85a922f9f12d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299c76284fb794b1587ef85a922f9f12d\u0022\u003ERICHARD PROSSER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak to the first reading of the Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EI was discussing this bill with a colleague of mine last month, and my colleague remarked: \u201CWhat a shame it is that we have to legislate, that we have to pass laws, because of people\u2019s stupidity.\u201D Yet that is what we are doing. It is a great thing that Dr Calder has brought this bill to the House and we are pleased to be able to support it, because it will address an issue of safety that is of genuine concern, but at the same time it is a very great shame that he has had to draft a bill to address the matter at hand, because the need for it has come about wholly and solely thanks to the stupidity of a few individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003ELasers are a fascinating invention. I have been fascinated by them since learning the theory and workings of them in physics in high school. Light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation is what the acronym LASER stands for, and a truly wonderful process that is. The principle of wave-particle duality, the fact that light can exist as either a wave form or a particle but not at the same time, has been employed by mankind to his great benefit since the invention of the laser in 1960. Today lasers are common in industry, medicine, and science. Lasers are used for precise and accurate measuring, cutting, reading and recording, engraving, incising, excising, and aligning and levelling. Everything from dumpy levels to DVD players have lasers in them. Of course, they have other uses, such as the hunter using a laser sight to pinpoint the hapless bunny in his crosshairs, to a lecturer or presenter highlighting elements of his or her presentation on a screen or a whiteboard for the benefit of the audience, and to driving one\u2019s cat into a frenzy as it chases the impossible-to-catch little red dot all around the house. Indeed, they have many practical and legitimate uses. They have less legitimate uses as well, and it is one of these in particular that has been the reason for the good Dr Calder to bring this bill before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003ELaser pointers\u2014hand-held lasers in particular\u2014have evolved rapidly in recent years, and their availability has increased as prices have fallen exponentially. Once the preserve of fictional characters in futuristic movies and TV programmes, the hand-held laser has become an easily accessible reality, powered by ordinary torch batteries, and capable of great feats such as igniting matches and bursting balloons over a great distance. I would have loved one as a boy, and with hindsight in some ways I think it is just as well that I never did have one. But boys today do have them, and some of those boys choose to do stupid things with them, which is why we are here debating this fine member\u2019s bill, from the very fine member indeed, if I may say so, with the intention of making it into an equally fine law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EI do own a laser pointer\u2014I should confess that at this point. In one of my previous lives I was involved with the manufacture of colloidal silver, which is a broad-spectrum germicide consisting of the suspension of microscopic silver particles in distilled water. One of the tools that is used to confirm the presence of the silver particles in colloidal suspension and solution is a laser beam. When it is shone through the brew, the laser produces what it known as the Tyndall effect, which is the scattering of light by very small particles diffused in suspension. The laser pointer that I used for this purpose was a very small device that I purchased from a well-known chain of red shops for the princely sum of $2. It has a power output of about zero-point-nothing of a milliwatt, but, that said, it will still illuminate a reflective road sign some 2 kilometres away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003E The hand-held lasers that the silly boys I referred to earlier seek to own and misuse, however, are a different animal altogether. They are advertised online as being of great power and effect, many hundreds and even thousands of times more powerful than my own little key ring device, which, despite its utility, is really little more than a toy\u2014a toy that could still blind somebody, mind. But these powerful lasers are in a different league, and use them to blind they do. Foolish boys have taken to using these devices to blind the pilots of aircraft approaching our airports, putting literally hundreds of lives in the air and on the ground at risk. It is only a matter of time before some clown decides that drivers on the motorway are an equally hilarious target and fair game for their stupidity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229dc203b3-21b0-4d4a-a530-746504e05f20\u0022\u003EDr Calder\u2019s bill will remove these devices from temptation\u2019s reach and that is why we are happy to stand alongside him, shoulder to shoulder, in support of it. We despair that this bill has become necessary and that, as my erstwhile colleague said, we have to legislate because of people\u2019s stupidity. But it appears that we do, and here we are. New Zealand First congratulates Dr Calder on having his bill drawn from the ballot. We thank him for his motivation and his reasoning. We support this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u00226c00a23146f34f92be599a1fa7ac9230\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c00a23146f34f92be599a1fa7ac9230\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E It is always a pleasure to follow the member Richard Prosser\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9fae8c760e348c0b543d9b729380667\u0022\u003EHon Christopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e17c454e0d4d91a9a3975dab0146ab\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have got only 5 minutes, Minister; I do not want to lose too much of it. I just want to commend Cam Calder for this member\u2019s bill, the Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill. Although there is obviously support across the House for it, I do not think we should underestimate how significant a risk these lasers actually do pose. If anyone has any doubts about that, it is actually not that hard to pull up some footage in some of the warring nations in the Middle East. If we have a look, we will actually see that there are people trying to take down aircraft with laser lights. They are doing it by the hundreds. So it is actually used, in a sense, as a weapon of warfare. While we can jest, to some extent, about laser pointers that may be used in a classroom or used to\u2014Mr Lees-Galloway plays with his cat, or something, with it as far as I can be aware there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224035d67fa80d40778ee18713f514d01c\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Try it. It\u2019s hours of entertainment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cb128ca527f43a491208e8d8db5e5c9\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there you go\u2014hours of entertainment with his pussy. We can make light of that, but the reality is that these lasers have been used in an offensive manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022953dc910615e458f9be7fe4965864277\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! That\u2019s the best line of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ea46a25a9a45f09ce47bd0b7e2ab60\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, David, you\u2019re even redder than normal, mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233812f0d9216471685751df315324f66\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: They have been used in a manner in which the lives of New Zealand citizens are actually put at risk. I do not want to get Mr Lees-Galloway too excited by that, but clearly it has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EIt has been discussed that although the Labour Party will be supporting it, it is a Clayton\u2019s support where members will support it, but will ask many stern questions at the select committee. Members raised the valid issue of whether or not we should measure the strength of the lasers and make it an offence only if they are over a certain strength. I think what we could do is draw a comparison to the unlawful possession of a knife. That is a very similar type of offence, in the sense that a knife, in itself, is not an offensive weapon unless the context in which it is carried or possessed is one in which it has an unlawful intent. In that offence, it is not a case that the length of the knife is the issue, because if anyone has ever been confronted with a knife, as I was as a police officer, a knife that is the length of a finger can do just as much damage as one that is the length of an arm if it is used in the right place. I would liken that to the situation in this bill, and put it in the same category. It is not about the scale or the calibre of the weapon, or the laser in this case; it is about the purpose and the intention for which it is being carried and how it will be used. I think that is where Mr Calder intends this conversation to be focused\u2014[Interruption] Dr Calder\u2014Dr Calder, absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhen all is said and done, most people will have lasers for various reasons and most of them will be lawful. But it is the ratbags, and Mr Prosser alluded to the fact that if we could legislate for stupidity\u2014or what was it, Mr Prosser; I cannot quite recall now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212999075823e40c99de88c2023fb5db3\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Irresponsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d42f5d1a4154cfeb9369bf839036f1d\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014irresponsibility, stupidity, or what have you, well, this House would be a lot emptier, that is for sure. If only we could legislate to make people more responsible, but the reality is legislation goes only so far when it comes to personal responsibility. What we have to get right is sending the right sort of message and creating the right boundaries where we do not penalise those who go about life in a lawful purpose, whether it be with a knife or with a laser, but where we ensure that those who choose to use them for an unlawful purpose are actually deterred from that and are subject to some sort of criminal sanction or some sort of\u2014[Bell rung] Does that give me a minute left, sir? One minute\u2014there we go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EAs we take this matter forward to the select committee, as I say, I want to commend Cam Calder, because many a pilot in New Zealand has been subject to this. We have seen it with police helicopters, we have seen it with rescue helicopters, and we have seen it with planes landing at Wellington Airport. There are some dangerous idiots out there and this legislation needs to send a very clear message that if you take something that has a lawful purpose and use it unlawfully, there will be a consequence. Actually, it is time to reflect on that stupidity and sheet it home to the people who are responsible, and the people who are responsible are those who, as I say, will take a lawful product and use it for an unlawful purpose. Are you happy with that, Mr Deputy Speaker? I am happy to sit down. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022800c1fbb953d45e8bcbbcb153d465fed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022800c1fbb953d45e8bcbbcb153d465fed\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just say at the outset in this debate that we are talking about \u201ClaSERS!\u201D. I just had to get that out of my system because Austin Powers has for ever made this bill, the Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill, difficult to talk about without at least giving an attempt to honour the icon that Austin Powers movies have made lasers into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EBut having got that out of my system, I will, of course, say that this is a very serious bill and I want to congratulate the member in charge of the bill, Dr Cam Calder, on its first reading. It is around a serious issue. However I do wonder, because of the serious nature of this bill, why we are debating it on a member\u2019s day. Good on him. Good luck to Dr Cam Calder. I might take him to the races one day with that sort of luck\u2014getting his bill out of the ballot. But why did we have to wait for the magic number to come out of the tin for the members\u2019 ballot, instead of this being a Government bill that actually could have been addressed and have gone right through all of its processes by now? The Government did not take this issue seriously enough to put it forward on the Order Paper as a Government bill. Instead it left it up to the whim of the members\u2019 ballot for it to be drawn out. Fortunately, it was drawn out, so congratulations, Dr Calder, on willing it out of the members\u2019 ballot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI say this is a serious issue because it has serious consequences. Of course the Labour Party will support this bill in its first reading to go to a select committee because there have been incidents\u2014I think some 120 incidents. Am I right about that? There were 120? There were 102, sorry\u2014I have got a bit dyslexic with my numbers there. There have been 102 reported cases in the last year where the high-powered laser beams have been used from these hand-held lasers when pilots are landing planes at airports. I am not sure what type of mind gets an absolute kick out of that, but clearly that is what has occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that there is an issue here to be dealt with. Some of the issues, though, that the Labour Party will be interested in pursuing at the select committee\u2014and I heard the contribution from the last speaker, Mike Sabin. He seems to have a view that asking questions at the select committee is, somehow, idiocy. In fact, that is what the select committee process is for. That is exactly what it is for, and we will be asking questions. This bill does not deal with the unlawful nature of it, because it is already unlawful. It is already illegal for anyone to take that action against those pilots and their passengers. Let us be clear about that. This is about making it unlawful to be in possession of a hand-held laser in certain vicinities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWe want to make sure that that is not going too far. We want to make sure that this has been done in a way so that it is actually addressing the problem and the problem only, and not going much wider than it needs to. So we will be interested in knowing what the problem is with someone being found in possession of a low\u2014what would you call it\u2014density or low-power laser if it is not even capable of causing the sort of catastrophe that we are concerned about in this bill. What is the harm? Therefore, is this bill actually going too far in terms of having unintended consequences, I guess is probably the way to put it. So those are the issues that we will be concerned about at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EProbably the final thing that I will say on this bill is that I will not be on the select committee as a permanent member to hear the submissions on this bill. That is probably a good thing, because whenever I think about this bill I am inclined to want to say \u201ClaSER!\u201D, and that might get a bit on the nerves of a select committee. So it is probably a good thing that I will not be there for the submissions, but I wish the select committee all the best in its deliberations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00221509a4ef7b6b44b591a8c5e38474c95e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221509a4ef7b6b44b591a8c5e38474c95e\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I too would like to congratulate Dr Cam Calder on a thoughtful, considered, concerned piece of very serious legislation. Good legislation can often be identified early on in good speeches, and this bill, the Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill, I think has generated a number of interesting speeches already. It is a compliment to all those who have given their speeches\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a04473a4a442ecba10ef437c979151\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220949bbadffbc40d591bfe4be7c567def\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I am not sure about Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s speech; no, it was all right, it was all right\u2014but also it is a compliment to the author of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7b1f9570ba4f2e8580fab086a3ad1e\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: And the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8eff7ffece040b28eb76ac949e8be25\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: All right, and the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and the chairman of the select committee\u2014we will get it right. This bill has produced some interesting speeches from all around the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI thought that Mike Sabin introduced a very interesting perspective from his earlier career as a law enforcer in that he sort of emphasised that it is not enough just to have a law that risks making people more inventive than more honest; there have to be consequences attached to their not staying within the law. That is why I worry a little bit about Labour thinking that this bill is perhaps going a little bit too far and asking whether we could weaken it down a bit, and I think that should be discussed properly within the select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221529e734906e462daf124d423f36bddc\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s already illegal to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225025b54cd6e64a16bedd8db22dcf9dfb\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I look forward to that. Say that again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a31c88fd99542508c107fb9ba9f19de\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s already illegal to actually point a laser at an aircraft. This is about possession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237fab03c30f7482e94e3ac77b476e416\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, I will cover that. I might have thought that that was a little bit late, if you were thinking of stopping things by law. \u201CNo, you shouldn\u2019t have done that. That\u2019s no good.\u201D\u2014that was, I think, Mike Sabin\u2019s point of view. You cannot leave it that late. The misuse of these instruments puts New Zealanders\u2019 lives at risk. National is committed to ensuring the safety of New Zealanders using the transport system, so that it is not compromised. This bill ensures the proper regulation of devices that pose a threat to the safety of New Zealanders, and it is the threat that you are required to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIt is not just larrikins, is it? It is not just larrikins. There can be really disturbed people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240d88dfb722c4d8a9bdd9ddc055b8014\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Like New Zealand First members!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db880a8bddbf455f946945cc05f080b6\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Now, now. There can be really disturbed people, and there are those\u2014and we live in a country that is relatively free from it\u2014who are inclined towards terrorism. So, is it over the top? I do not think so\u2014I do not think so. Hand-held lasers can be used at football matches or any crowd scene. Darien Fenton called it madness. Yes, it is. It is madness, and we cannot presume sanity on the basis of who might use these things. Let us think back to some of the crazy things that have happened in the past, such as stones or bricks being chucked off overbridges on motorways, presumably just for laughs. Dreadful things can happen, and you have to have consequences attached to breaking the law. I am particularly glad to see that the Greens have seen sense through the voice of Mr Clendon recognising that there are dangers and that they cannot pursue their normal standpoint, which I respect, of liberty for all. Well, this is not liberty for all. This is liberty for some, without this law, and dangers for others. There are dangers, and there is no such thing as an inoffensive laser light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThere will be inoffensive proper uses, and these are the things that select committees are there to consider. I do not doubt that we will have people whose eyesight perhaps is not as good as that of our current presiding officer in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, who might have better shooting with a laser-assisted target selection thing, but I am quite sure that the Deputy Speaker does not require that. [Bell rung] Indeed, he is bringing me to a sharp stop in case I carry on. There should be no place for the casual recreational use of these instruments. I thought that New Zealand First\u2019s Mr Prosser gave a wonderful dissertation on the physics of laser lights. One could almost call it illuminating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022688d6b9bc2f44d63994746cd0211b084\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3c96f0be05e472b98cf65ecb466e5f2\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe availability of the price, the lack of responsibility, powerful equipment, and irresponsible hands and minds\u2014all these things have to be taken into account. I would like to join with the others and express congratulations to Dr Cam Calder on his thoughtful, considered, concerned and serious piece of legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u00220ccac7148d234489b6c5314ece240a00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ccac7148d234489b6c5314ece240a00\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it is a huge pleasure, and I must say that I do appreciate the speeches from around the House in support of this bill, the Summary Offences (Possession of Hand-held Lasers) Amendment Bill. One of the privileges of being an MP is to craft a member\u2019s bill, and this is not the first one I have crafted. I have brought one together on low-ball share offers and another one on changing the right-hand rule. They were presented to the various Ministers concerned and, in fact, were rolled into the regulations or the legislation of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f649f3747024c5088bf9e8d0964b6fd\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Why wasn\u2019t this one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b25e0cae5064eabb6c26b5e3f573cb1\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: Taking up the point that Sue Moroney and Iain Lees-Galloway, my colleagues across the House, have made, of course the Government is working on this, and it has done work in the area of importation and sale. Regulations around those areas have been promoted and will likely come into force, as was pointed out by one of the earlier speakers, later on this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EI was working in Manurewa\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f6e180e92814f289b030a57635480a2\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CManu-ray-wa\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254942a7731b34d9e8c3bd80c96a6b220\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: I have my office in the vibrant and diverse community of Manurewa. There are 140,000 flights\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b276f6f0ea644e7c93ae298db46973a2\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CManu-ray-wa\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0b28719d3ea40f0869c4ec14866f268\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014each year that over-fly Manurewa. My colleague William Sio across the Chamber there would have the same experience in \u201CMon-gere\u201D of 140,000 flights across that urban area. So this bill has relevance not only for those who fly in aircraft but also those who are residents of communities around airports and the approaches to airports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThis is a simple bill, but one that could potentially impact on all members in this House, as was pointed out by David Clendon. I thank the Greens for their support in referring this bill to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. It could impact on all members of this House and, indeed, on all New Zealanders who travel by air. As was pointed out by, I think, Sue Moroney and others\u2014by Mr Richard Prosser, also speaking in favour of the bill, and possibly by my colleague Chris Auchinvole, who gave a very learned dissertation on this bill\u2014over 100 cases each year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2fcb09bd63c4cff83269bc38bcec6cb\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What do you mean \u201Cpossibly\u201D? He\u2019s going to support you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229ff916076794952bfd1762eb47b23a7\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Robertson would agree with this. Mr Robertson is from Manukau East, also over-flown by 140,000 flights each year. The residents of the electorate that you currently represent are going to be safer when this bill is passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? Can I just address a point made about the size of the laser device. I will not go down the line of what you do with your laser with your cat, Mr Lees-Galloway\u2014and maybe we can look at that in the select committee\u2014but what is the relevance of the size or power of the laser? I think the learned exposition of Mike Sabin, a police officer who has been faced by potentially lethal weapons in the form of small knives, had actually a very valid point, and that, Mr Clendon, is why I did not restrict the power of these lasers. As Mr Prosser pointed out, his very small device hanging on the end of a key ring\u2014I understood you to say in the House a few minutes ago that you could illuminate a road sign at 2 kilometres. That is a very small, supposedly underpowered, safe device. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe point I would make, and the reason why we have not restricted the size or the power of these devices, is simply this: in the hands of miscreants and malcontents these devices can cause problems, whatever their power. I have the proof here in these documents. As we have said, the Airline Pilots\u2019 Association is very much in favour of this bill. It has sent me a huge amount of information, including on the various ratings of lasers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EEven class 2 lasers\u2014I should say that class 1 lasers, of course, are unlikely to cause problems, because they are the sorts of lasers that you see in CD players or possibly laser printers. I do not imagine someone going along with a CD player pointing it at someone is going to cause a problem in the street, so there is no problem with those. Class 2 lasers, however, which are those with a power of less than 1 milliwatt\u2014and what I presume Mr Prosser had on his key ring\u2014can in the wrong hands and with prolonged exposure cause problems. My feeling was that just as with knives where no size is determined the same should apply with lasers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EI thank all those around the House for their support of this bill. It is a very serious problem that this House needs to address. We will address it. I look forward to further discussion in the select committee, but in the meantime I thank members of the House for their support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b8165c668044cf8b935d6d93e0b21d7\u0022\u003ESentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a1962e6723c4d57a57051ba5cf023af\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022 data-id=\u00222251e862fa8e4f4b9f3d7d4888b802e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222251e862fa8e4f4b9f3d7d4888b802e7\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Law and Order Committee to consider this bill. Talofa lava, greetings, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa, and thank you for the opportunity to introduce this bill to the House for its first reading. In introducing this bill to the House I would like to acknowledge the late Brian Donnelly QSM, a former New Zealand First MP, who strongly advocated for a bill like this to be developed in order to tackle the issues that this bill intends to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EJim Rohn said that \u201CHappiness is not something you postpone for the future; it is something you design for the present.\u201D Our young children deserve happiness with good education and secure homes. It is impossible to postpone happiness for our younger generation, for they need to plan for prosperity and stable lives today. So in order for our future generations to have stability, we ought to carefully engineer their current environment and ensure that we design the best platform to counter the risks and evils that could harm and cause more damage to them and our nation in years to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe bill brings a unique focus to the way in which New Zealand deals with criminals who continue to ignore the rights of our children to a safer and secure environment\u2014an environment where they can grow up to become good citizens with aspirations to be great leaders of our future generations instead of professionals in criminal activity or leaders of some gang-affiliated organisation. I ask that we put aside our politics and come together and be united for the sake of our vulnerable children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill seeks to make criminal offending in the presence of a minor an aggravating factor at sentencing. Criminal offending by adults often exposes minors to serious harm. That is why this bill aims to enable the legal system in New Zealand to view such criminal activities and give appropriate sentences that are reflective of this harm. I say: let the punishment fit the crime. There is a need for more emphasis to be placed on the well-being of minors or our children who witness, and are exposed and unfairly subjected to, criminal activity. At the same time criminals who ignore these children should be held accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe bill will make criminal offending in the presence of a minor an aggravating factor at sentencing. It is a crackdown on individuals who engage in criminal activity in the presence of young minors, and a minor would include anyone under the age of 17 years. The intention is to send a clear message to others in New Zealand that we will no longer tolerate crime being witnessed by children, and that we can no longer allow our children to be abused in such a way that they become emotionally and psychologically affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EAnother important aspect of this bill includes strengthening judges\u2019 powers when sentencing offenders where minors have been exposed to potential serious harm. A primary example of serious harm is the production of illicit drugs in homes where children are living. Honourable members, this bill sends a clear message that this is unacceptable. It has become too common for young children to be living in homes where drugs are produced and sold. The reality is that drugs are often associated with other forms of illegal activity, from theft to gang associations and violence, and with this comes the abuse. Young children are far too often the innocent parties to criminal offending by adults. There have been numerous media reports of children being placed in danger where crimes are committed, which shows a real need for this bill to be passed into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EOn 3 September or earlier this month I read a media release by the New Zealand Police saying that young children were present at some addresses that were the subject of a search executed on several Mongrel Mob addresses, and that the police had made three referrals to Child, Youth and Family. Children living in P labs suffer the risk of harm from living amongst toxic waste, explosive chemicals, and drug-manufacturing debris. Living in such a dangerous environment, children are exposed to immediate danger from chemical poisoning, contamination, and the high chance of fire and explosions. Children found in P labs are likely to be inhaling and absorbing the same levels of methamphetamine as adult drug users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ESenior lecturer in psychological medicine at the University of Auckland Dr Trecia Wouldes said that although there was no research on the long-term effects of P on children, what was known about the effects of passive smoking could be indicative. The effects range from allergies to irritations from the drug, with the worst coming from breathing the fumes daily and physical trauma or burns that could occur if the labs exploded. In 2010-11 more than 460 children were found in 37 percent of all clan-labs and 73 percent of all drug-dealing houses identified by the police. This is up from 26 percent and 65 percent, respectively, in 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EIf the direct harm from the drugs themselves is not enough, children are often neglected because of the nature of the trade. In many cases, children are subjected to and witness violence. A High Court judge last year was appalled at the number of women he saw in court for neglecting their children while using methamphetamine. Justice Williams reported that cases like these only create a generation stuck in the same drug-addicted cycle. In other words, children pick up bad habits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EI worked in the Department of Corrections where I came across offenders who were in prison with their father and grandfathers. Studies have shown that children learn from adults. Parents\u2019 criminality strongly correlates with an increased chance of a child developing conduct problems and, later on, criminal activity. Children in environments where crime takes place are taught at a young age to accept this certain lifestyle. Offending is an indirect consequence of the offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ESeveral jurisdictions in the United States have passed legislation where drug manufacturing in a residence occupied by a minor is an aggravating factor at sentencing. In the state of New South Wales in Australia, sentencing procedure legislation makes it clear that an offence committed in the presence of a child under the age of 18 is an aggravating factor. Why, then, is New Zealand turning a blind eye? It is time that sentencing takes into account the safety of the children. A situation where children have been exposed to dangerous criminal activity cannot and must not be taken lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe National Government\u2019s White Paper for Vulnerable Children introduced in recent years, although well intended, unfortunately, gave New Zealand no assurance that the problem of children in crime-operating environments will be addressed. So let us hope that the Vulnerable Children Bill will enhance our combined efforts in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E New Zealand First has brought forward before Parliament a solution to this serious problem. The bill recognises that children will slip under the radar. Just because harm to children occurs behind closed doors, it does not mean that we should turn a blind eye when it comes to sentencing those guilty of the actions that have created such unfortunate consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe current legislation does not go far enough to provide results in sentencing that properly take into account the safety of children and their exposure to dangerous criminal activity. This bill defines minors as \u201Cunder the age of 17 years\u201D, and covers both mental and emotional harm, as well as physical harm, to minors. Furthermore, children need only to be present to trigger this as an aggravating factor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EIf this Government is going to take a serious stance on vulnerable children and tackle the negative issue of child abuse, this bill paves a way in the right direction. Let us not seek the answer from the right, the left, or the centre, but seek the answer that is right. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022528967a9cbf44c4fa6af407a9146add1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022528967a9cbf44c4fa6af407a9146add1\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E National does support this bill, the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill, at its first reading. We will be very interested to consider this bill. National does support this bill because it aligns pretty fair and square with the work that this National Government has been doing in, first of all, putting the victims of crime first, but also in its very strong cross-ministerial work programme looking after the interests of all children, including vulnerable children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI commend the member Asenati Lole-Taylor for bringing this bill to the House. It is a simple bill. It proposes to amend section 9 of the Sentencing Act to add a new aggravating factor at the time of sentencing. As I understand the bill, the judge presiding must take into account whether or not the child, who is to be under 16 years old, has had a crime committed in their presence by somebody over the age of 17 years\u2014so it concerns an adult, albeit a young adult, having committed a crime in the presence of a young person or child under the age of 16. So the judge, at the time of sentencing, is to take the fact that that young person or child was present at the time of the offence into consideration when sentencing that offender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe member will be very aware that this Government passed legislation earlier this year to make it an aggravating factor at sentencing offences against corrections officers, police officers, ambulance officers\u2014and I might be forgetting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f01cae86298a49d6899cd254d50f69e2\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor\u003C/span\u003E: Fire, ambulance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec98f6b59a9471ca997d8cd4922540d\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: The Fire Service. We did that with the support of the House because we recognised that those service providers did not ever have the option of running away from an incident. So the fireman cannot run away from a fire. If that fireman is prevented from going about their business, as happens, and as happens to ambulance officers on a not infrequent basis, and to prison officers, they have no choice. They have to stand their ground. They have to deal not only with the emergency that they face, like the prison riot we had recently, but also with perpetrators committing offences or attempting to commit offences on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo you can very well argue\u2014and I think it is very true to say\u2014that young people under the age of 16 can find themselves in circumstances, through no fault of their own, such as being in the midst of a crime scene, be it, as I think the member Asenati Lole-Taylor cited, being seen in a P lab and having the toxic fumes and the very danger of explosion around them, be it family violence, or being sat in a vehicle that is the subject of a police pursuit. All of those scenarios are similar in that the child does not have the choice. They are children. They are in the control\u2014one would hope, in our society\u2014of responsible adults. So I commend the member for bringing this bill to the House for its first reading, and we will have a good look at it in the Law and Order Committee. It aligns very well\u2014very well\u2014with the policies of this National Government and with a lot of the work that this Government has done already in our first 5 years in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI will talk about some of the more detailed aspects of the bill. It refers to \u201Cin the presence of a minor\u201D, and that means in a place or a building where a minor is present or could reasonably be expected to be present, or in close proximity to a place or a building where a minor is present or could reasonably be expected to be present. In other words, I think the member is saying here that they do not have any choice. They are kids. They have got to do what they are told. They are minors. They get placed in these circumstances, and here we have a bill that makes the presence of a minor an aggravating factor in the sentencing of the perpetrator of a crime. Well, good on you, Asenati Lole-Taylor, for bringing this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI just want to go through a few of the initiatives that are complementary to this bill, and they are around the protecting of vulnerable children. I do have to disagree with the member that the Children\u2019s Action Plan is not going far enough. I believe it is. I believe it is putting the interests of vulnerable children first, and I think some of the provisions in that policy are going to be quite crunchy for people. But we are unapologetic in putting the interests of vulnerable children first. Why? To keep them safe. Why? Because they cannot choose the homes that they are born into or the situations that they find themselves in. They do not have that choice. We as adults have that choice; children do not have that choice. So I am unapologetic and I am proud of the Hon Paula Bennett\u2019s Children\u2019s Action Plan. I look forward to seeing the roll-out of the implementation of that plan and keeping our young children safe in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EUnder National, we have already toughened sentences for crimes against children. We have already done work in that area. It is now a crime to stay silent if you know that a child or a vulnerable adult is at risk. We removed the parole eligibility for the worst repeat violent offenders and for offenders who commit the worst murders. We did that with the three-strikes law, thanks to our coalition partner the ACT Party. We introduced screening of parole applications, to allow the Parole Board to reduce the number of unnecessary hearings. Again, this was putting the interests of the victims first, be they adults or children. Of course, there are always children associated with victims. We are all mothers, we are all grandmothers, we are all aunties, and we are all family members. Every crime that is committed in New Zealand has a number of victims and a number of those victims are children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI could go through a number of initiatives, and I know my colleagues will. I just want to talk about the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill, which is newly introduced into the House and is now going through scrutiny in the Law and Order Committee. Again, this is another complementary piece of legislation that puts the interests of the victim first. It is about protecting the victim as much as is possible from crime and criminals in New Zealand. It might be adults, but in this case it is children. This Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill is a good bill. We will support this bill through its first reading. I commend the bill to the House, and thank Asenati Lole-Taylor for bringing it to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002237537069e3d147a3ac350a25ec6a5bb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237537069e3d147a3ac350a25ec6a5bb2\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take the first call from Labour on the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill, brought by the New Zealand First member Asenati Lole-Taylor, and to say that Labour is supporting this bill to the Law and Order Committee so it can be given further consideration, both by the public and by members of this House. But we do have some reservations, and I want to share and outline those with the House now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe absolutely agree with the member that it is incumbent upon us to protect the most vulnerable from harm. Our argument would be: what is the best point of intervention to try to ensure that those layers of protection exist? How do we best ensure that a child is kept distant from harm? How, when they are found to be in harm\u2019s way, can we best ensure that they are supported and removed from that harm? Our question is whether adding an extra bit of criteria for when an offender comes to be sentenced is the best way to do that, keeping in mind that, as it is, most judges would probably keep in mind or factor in the presence of children, when they come to sentence. But what we are relying upon for this bill to take effect is, first, for a criminal to be charged\u2014for enough evidence to exist for them to be charged\u2014second, for them to be convicted, and then, third, for the sentencing to take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to use the example that the member has used, around the presence of children in methamphetamine labs, because it is a very good example that the member is right to raise. There are a number of vulnerable children in this country who are currently exposed to the dangers of methamphetamine manufacturing. In 2010 alone, 44 children were found living in laboratories, physically living in the environment in which equipment and drugs were manufactured\u2014a potentially explosive environment, not to mention the fact that they were absorbing those toxins into their skin. That was in just 1 year. It is a growing trend, and that is down to police records. Police records have demonstrated the presence of almost 200 children since they started measuring that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe issue is that you would assume that the police, who, for instance, then report to Child, Youth and Family when they go into a home where there is methamphetamine\u2014they will tell Child, Youth and Family that there is a child in the home where they have done a drug raid. We would assume, as fair-minded New Zealanders, that any parent raising their child in that kind of risk environment would have their child removed. It is a fair assessment, a fair judgment, to make. That is not the case. In some cases we have parents who are being charged, convicted, and sentenced, but their spouse is still caring for the child and they go back into the home with that child. They may sometimes even return to manufacturing methamphetamine. The police have found this to be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhy is that? Well, it is simply because the threshold for abuse and neglect implies that you are removing the necessities of life from a child, and there is, at least in the minds of Child, Youth and Family, a threshold that is not met through drug manufacturing. There is apparently not enough evidence to demonstrate that that is the removal of the necessities of life. Well, in my mind, when you find toxins equivalent to that of a methamphetamine user in the hair follicles of a child, that is enough. That should be enough. Simply the fact that you consider it acceptable to raise your child in that environment, that should be enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESo the point that we want to make is this. If we really want to protect children, should we be considering the fact that it should be a separate offence in itself rather than an aggravating factor? Should we be considering that at least our child protection agency considers it neglect and abuse for those children to be in that environment? And why do we not do that first? That is what we know we are crying out for now. Putting any child back into a home where this is occurring says to me that a hole exists, and if we are waiting until someone is convicted, that does not fix the hole. So we have got to look at some of those other issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut, as I have said, we support this bill to the select committee so that we can debate some of these issues. As I say, some of our reservations are about whether or not it is directed in the right place and whether or not judges already have this power, but that is something we look forward to considering. I thank the member Asenati Lole-Taylor for bringing this debate to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd9cd7bbb0444bc6a8c42c7a9510bf72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd9cd7bbb0444bc6a8c42c7a9510bf72\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E I too want to congratulate Asenati Lole-Taylor on bringing this Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Bill to the House\u2014I guess, on having it drawn by what I should term the process of the roulette wheel. It is quite an achievement, as I understand it. Many have sat here for years with no success at all in getting a bill drawn. It is a bit like going to the Skycity Casino and leaving with nothing, which, of course, can happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e48a09117524e70b725e3fb5f4e85d2\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Not by this Government. They\u2019ve got plenty out of the Skycity Casino.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe2d15f76fc8491282013f231ebfac13\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Have you worked that out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2014[Interruption] They are rather noisy, Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014they are rather noisy. This bill has the potential to complement National\u2019s law and order legislative programme, which, I think, is having spectacular success. Aside from significant reductions in crime at almost all levels, particularly in the youth crime area, we have also, of course, seen recently in the youth crime area a great reduction in road deaths amongst young people. That is a pretty extraordinary achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EMy brief time in this Parliament has been spent on the Law and Order Committee, and I have seen and learnt a lot about the outstanding role our police play in our communities, keeping our communities and our young people safe. I want to briefly mention the work of our youth aid officers in our communities, particularly in our rural communities. They really are the key to our policing success, and, of course, to some extent this bill sets out to deal with the harm that comes to young people from their association with crime. Our youth aid officers play a critical part in the success that we have in keeping those young people safe and keeping them out of crime and those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI also want to talk briefly about the work of the Department of Corrections and about what are, at times, testing, intimidating, and even dangerous conditions. I think the corrections department does a pretty amazing job. We have had the opportunity in the last 18 months to visit a number of New Zealand prisons to look at what goes on there and to see the efforts that have been made to repatriate those prisoners and re-educate them and get them back into the workforce. I think, again, that we are making significant progress in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to, I guess, impose tougher penalties on those people who, by association, involve young people in their criminal efforts. There is no doubt that young people associating with crime leads to them being much more likely to have a life involved in crime. So I think that the bill from that perspective has some great potential. There are already, of course, some opportunities for tougher penalties for people who involve young people in crime, but this bill certainly clears it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to talk briefly about this Government\u2019s targets for reducing crime. We have a target of reducing reoffending by 25 percent by 2017. We want to reduce the overall crime rate by 15 percent, and, of course, those results are significant already. I would have to say that some of the legislation that has gone through the Law and Order Committee in the last 18 months has certainly contributed to the improvement in those targets, and no doubt the legislation that was put through in the previous 3 years had made a huge difference to those targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other area that the Government has firmly concentrated on is putting victims first. As the previous speaker Jacqui Dean said, we have a bill currently before the select committee that aims to improve the opportunity for victims to protect themselves, once those criminals who have done them the damage get out of prison. That is a pretty good start, I think. There are also numerous other means by which the Government has moved to improve the lot of victims. I think that is a great bit of work. It is currently a work in progress, of course. As Jacqui Dean said, the bill that I am talking about is the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill, which is currently in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202daeb64c15c4497b57acc8d2c8776f9\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: This is the silliest piece of legislation the House has seen in a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221340cf58da9643c98377268e0c6f6694\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Those of us who have the opportunity to serve on the Law and Order Committee have a greater understanding of these things, and clearly we do not need to engage in this kind of discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to congratulate the member on bringing this bill to the House and I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00221e80691183604b39b8ef8923c94e7590\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e80691183604b39b8ef8923c94e7590\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. The first line of the explanatory note of this Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill essentially spells out the motivation for it, I think. It simply says that \u201CCriminal offending by adults often exposes minors to serious harm.\u201D Undoubtedly it does. To those of us who are parents or even who have the care of other people\u2019s children, it is inexplicable, in a sense, that people would willingly expose children often to quite serious harm, but, sadly, that is the reality. It is something that this bill seeks to address, and the Greens are happy to support the progress of this bill. It is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe bill goes on to mention, too, that criminal offending by adults does cause harm to children, who deserve protection from adult offending that puts them at risk. It is opportune, or, perhaps, it is certainly appropriate, that we are debating this bill in its first reading this week, which is, of course, Children of Prisoners Week. I was very happy yesterday to host a brief celebration, a launch, of that week and of a display from PILLARS, Ng\u0101 Pou Whakahou. I do acknowledge my parliamentary colleagues from across the House who cooperated and enabled that brief launch, that celebration, to occur in the parliamentary precincts. I would just like also\u2014if I may diverge slightly\u2014to mention and acknowledge Verna McFelin, the founder and current director of PILLARS, who has 25 years of work protecting and doing her very level best to protect the well-being of the children of prisoners. She was recognised a couple of days ago with an award from the Department of Corrections. Twenty-five years is an extremely long time to be committed and devoted to a very tough call around protecting children from the consequences of adult offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESo with those comments, I will talk more specifically to the bill. In a sense, we see this as a belts and braces bill. We believe that clearly the intention is that having children exposed to criminal offending\u2014and the specifics, talking about P labs and the like\u2014should be treated as an aggravating factor at sentencing. We note that in 2005 Justice Winkelmann, in sentencing an offender who was involved in the manufacture of methamphetamine, said this: \u201Cit is a considerable aggravating factor that one of these operations was in the garage at the property where you lived with your children\u201D. She went on to say to the offender: \u201Cyou exposed your children to toxic chemicals in a dangerous environment.\u201D So, in a sense, we have got some confidence that judges at sentencing would already treat the presence of children as an aggravating factor, but clearly this bill would make it, perhaps, easier for judges to make that call and more likely that they would indeed consider that an aggravating factor. Certainly, it does no harm; it may do good. It is kind of a belts and braces approach, and there is no harm in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is a very short bill, and none the worse for that. It is very clear in its purpose. We respect that purpose\u2014to protect children from the very poor judgment, clearly, of adult offenders who may put those kids at risk. We compliment our colleague on bringing this bill to the House. We will be pleased to support it. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00227d1b80a16b6f4b0ba457d78f228ef58b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d1b80a16b6f4b0ba457d78f228ef58b\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak to the first reading of the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill. Can I, at the outset, congratulate Asenati Lole-Taylor on bringing this bill forward and on having the good fortune to have it drawn out of the ballot\u2014well done. In a previous speech I made on a Government MP bringing forward a piece of legislation, I was critical, of course, that it had not been turned into a Government bill. On this occasion I will not afford that same criticism to this bill, because, of course, the member has no option but to bring it forward as a member\u2019s bill, and that is the right and proper use of the members\u2019 ballot, in my humble view. So congratulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt is an important issue that Asenati Lole-Taylor puts before this Parliament, because what more worthy cause of this Parliament is there than to be protecting children from harm and to be putting children at the centre of what we do? The Labour Party made a deliberate decision some 4 years ago that at the heart of all of its policy development would be the impact on children. So of course it is supporting this bill at its first reading and referral to the Law and Order Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI will personally be very interested to hear submissions on this bill because I have a bill that is a little similar to this, but with quite different implications and different motivations behind it, going into the members\u2019 ballot. It is about having domestic violence as an aggravating factor at sentencing. I think there are some real synergies with this bill because, of course, one of the circumstances in which this bill would be brought to bear is in a situation where children are present during a criminal offence of\u2014I am going to call it \u201Cdomestic violence\u201D but, of course, there is no actual criminal offence of domestic violence; possibly it would be an assault, male versus female, or however it is described in the Sentencing Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThose situations are often\u2014and far too often\u2014occurring in homes, and frequently children who are present are harmed when they are party to that type of offending. One of the stories I still recall\u2014and it resonates with me whenever I think about the work our police do in this country\u2014is the story I heard from a community constable about how important it was for him to do work in the local schools. He relayed to me a story about the fact that because children knew him and he had visited their school, the children would come straight to him when, sadly, he was attending domestic violence situations in their homes. The children would come out of hiding\u2014that is often what children do in these situations; they hide\u2014and come straight to him. When the police knock at the door, the children are even more terrified than they are of the events happening around them. But this particular police officer was telling me of the importance of having a relationship with the children in his community so that they knew that when he appeared at their door, he was there to provide them with safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo I think it is going to be quite instructive for us to see what submitters make of this bill. I agree with my colleague Jacinda Ardern\u2014that is probably no surprise to anyone\u2014in that I would much rather we were working at the front end of this and in a way whereby children are never put in this situation, because, sadly, by the time this bill is brought to bear, the harm has actually already occurred. The harm for an innocent child\u2014who has no other option but to be party to a crime and to be in the vicinity of that crime\u2014has already happened by the time a judge is considering an aggravating factor at sentencing. That is the saddest thing about the bill that we are debating here this evening. Having said that, it is one measure that I hope will make some difference. I congratulate the member on bringing it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u002254adf14945f84b5e990336b9193157a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254adf14945f84b5e990336b9193157a5\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I will pick up where the member Sue Moroney left off in acknowledging the New Zealand First member Asenati Lole-Taylor for bringing this bill, the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill, forward. Members\u2019 days are a good opportunity for backbenchers to contribute to the work of Parliament. Some bills have merit; some bills do not. They all get debated if they are fortunate enough to be pulled from the ballot. I am actually very pleased to be debating this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EMost in the House will be aware, but I am sure for the three or four people who are now watching me at home\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073086575ff54fe38568d5077e3e924a\u0022\u003EHon Chris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Come on\u2014thousands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c729943b85445feaae05012e916e410\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Possibly five, if they have not turned off already. As a former detective I worked on electronics, undercover operations, surveillance, all the \u201Cninja turtle\u201D stuff, at the time when methamphetamine\u2014I was hiding behind trees; large ones, obviously. I was working in the police at the time when methamphetamine went from being really a very little-known issue to New Zealand having one of the worst problems in the world with that particular drug. It is the only hard drug that can be made in the kitchen from readily available retail chemicals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003ENew Zealand was quite captured by that drug. I was one of the first clandestine laboratory officers trained. The clandestine drug laboratory officers were trained to work alongside the Institute of Environmental Science and Research scientists, go in and dismantle the labs, gather the evidence, and prosecute in respect of these things. During that process I came to learn of the immense dangers that the manufacture of this drug actually created. Sure, members will talk about issues other than methamphetamine, but if we look at that particular drug and the implication of that on children, it will give a very good example, I guess, of where this bill may indeed have its place, and that is in the significant aggravation that is caused when someone is manufacturing methamphetamine in the proximity of children. Sadly, all too often that is exactly the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EHere is a drug that is made from readily available retail chemicals. It can be made in a plastic bag, it can be made in a soft drink bottle, and it is often made in the lounges, kitchens, and bathrooms of homes all around this country\u2014it has been. There have been thousands of labs\u2014many, many hundreds of labs\u2014that have been dismantled, of significant size and scale. We are talking about chemicals such as hydrochloric acid, sulphuric acid, and solvents of all manner that are highly flammable but toxic in themselves, such as red phosphorus, which will self-ignite without any rhyme or reason. These are chemicals that in combination become incredibly toxic. They are not visible and often cannot be detected by the senses. They will emit during the manufacturing process. They absorb into the wall linings. They go through the wall linings and into the stud timber. They go through the floor, down into the substrate beneath the floor linings. They go up into the rangehoods and all throughout the plumbing of the house. For every kilogram of methamphetamine, 9.5 kilograms of waste is created, and often that is tipped down drains or tipped out over the back lawn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhen I looked at a lot of the analysis on the implications of the ticking time bombs that meth labs become, what became very apparent is that children in those environments, by simply crawling around, would actually pick up those chemicals. They are, typically, putting a lot of things in their mouths, so trace elements of those volatile insolvents and acids, drain cleaner, and so forth, are being ingested by the children. Then, of course, those chemicals are producing methamphetamine, which is often smoked in that environment as well. So the children are ingesting that smoke, and the residue from the smoke also falls and they ingest that. Not only are they being poisoned but also they are ingesting the methamphetamine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EIt is abhorrent when one considers what goes on. Admittedly, most people who are manufacturing in that circumstance are doing so to feed an addiction. They are addicted to drugs because they cannot not take them. But when children are in that environment, and the parents can turn a blind eye to it, it is almost something that I think is contrary to human nature. It is so abhorrent, and the implications for the children are so severe. So on that basis alone I am happy to support the bill to be considered by the Law and Order Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe one note of caution that we may signal is the fact that judges do, of course, have discretionary ability to apply an aggravating factor in terms of sentencing, and that will always have to be weighed off against an arbitrary legal status such as this. I think the bill has merit and I commend the member for bringing it forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022620d9c6220e0474cbdc9fbbae677dafd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022620d9c6220e0474cbdc9fbbae677dafd\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has introduced a number of bills that put the interests of children as paramount. An example, of course, is the Family Courts Amendment Bill, which was recently passed. New Zealand First actually opposed that bill because we felt it had too many serious faults. Although it made the interests of children paramount, in fact it lessened the circumstances in which a lawyer for the child would be appointed. So we felt that the Government had reneged on its own declaration about the paramountcy of the interests of children in that bill. But although New Zealand First did not support that bill, we did support the principle of putting the interests of children first, and we know that there is also cross-party support for this important principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill will increase sentences for offenders as a means of bringing home to them the need to protect children from the effects of their offending. That puts this principle into practice. So it is no surprise that all parties want this bill at least to go to the appropriate select committee for examination. All parties, I am sure, want to see something done about the problem that the bill seeks to address, which is the exposure of children to criminal offending and to the psychological effect that this has on their whole lives, one of which is to drag those children into criminal offending themselves in later life. Another recent piece of legislation is the Victims of Crime Reform Bill. This is supported by New Zealand First for the same reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First and Asenati Lole-Taylor are promoting this bill to protect children from the effects of criminal offending. For too long victims\u2019 rights have been ignored. The current Government legislation to reverse that situation will be well augmented by Mrs Lole-Taylor\u2019s bill, the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill, because although the victims\u2019 rights are extremely important generally, there is a considerable gap in the need to emphasise children\u2019s rights in these areas. The particular focus of this bill is to deal with a by-product of offending, being the effects on minors when crimes are committed in their presence and when they live in unhealthy homes because of the effects of crime, especially the production and selling of drugs. So the bill, in fact, targets that area, and especially where methamphetamine is involved. Offenders who allow their criminal activities to cause harm to children must have a much higher degree of deterrence by the imposition of much harsher penalties. Such criminals must get a sharp wake-up call that not only is the offending itself going to be punished but also if it harms children, then that will cause a significant increase in the penalty. That is the purpose of this bill. It is a simple and straightforward measure. Even the dumbest criminal will understand it. Accordingly, the bill will help to attack one of the worst-affected sectors of the victims of crime\u2014New Zealand\u2019s children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EWe in this House have a sacred duty to do all we can to protect children, and this bill is one way of doing just that. The essence of the bill is in clause 5, which says that it is \u201Can aggravating factor in the consideration of sentencing of an offender aged 17 or over for the crime to have been committed in the presence of a minor if the actions undertaken to commit the offence put the minor at risk of harm.\u201D Although there is nothing in the law currently that would prevent a court from taking that into consideration as an aggravating factor, they too often do not do so. So it would be much better if they are required to do so as a mandatory measure. This would advert the courts\u2019 attention to the issue so that they do consider this consistently in sentencing. I congratulate Asenati Lole-Taylor on bringing the bill before the House. It is a small measure, but it is likely to have considerable impact on the protection of children and I trust it will get the support it deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002258e3fd96e7d34b7ca099cab906d88727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258e3fd96e7d34b7ca099cab906d88727\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on this important piece of legislation, Asenati Lole-Taylor\u2019s Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill. I want to say, as many others in this House have said tonight, that we are duty bound to ensure that the laws that this House passes afford proper and real protection to the most vulnerable in our society, and children are foremost amongst those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EHowever, now I want to be the fly in the ointment, or the jeremiah, and say that I have some concerns about this bill. I have concerns on the basis of longstanding principles of criminal justice and the drafting of criminal legislation. We all understand the need for an appropriate penalty to be in place when a crime involving violence and/or harm to others has been committed. There are important principles when it comes to our criminal statutes. One is that crimes, because they attract the coercive powers of the State through investigation, detection, prosecution, enforcement, and sometimes incarceration or other forms of punishment, are expected to be very clearly and unequivocally defined, so that people know what the boundary is that they have to cross before they attract the label of criminal or before they have committed a crime. That is fundamental. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhat I see in this bill is some vague language, some uncertainty, and some equivocation. When it says that a minor is put at risk, what does that mean? What is the nature of the risk? And what is the extent of the risk, especially if there has been no material impact or effect on the minor? Given the definition in the bill of \u201Cthe presence of a minor\u201D, what does it mean to say \u201Cwhere a minor \u2026 could reasonably be expected to be present;\u201D? Well, if the minor was not present and has not suffered harm, what is the basis of attracting a criminal sanction and punishing the person? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ELet us punish the wrongdoers. Let us punish those who do wrong things and who cause harm and danger to others. Let us not try to criminalise a whole bunch of activity that in the absence of anything else would not be criminal. That is one point. Let us not have wishy-washy, vague terms as the basis of our criminal statutes. We live in a time and, sadly, in a Parliament where it is very appealing and attractive to create more crimes and create more criminals and all the rest of it. We should be very cautious about doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is whether or not this bill will actually add anything to what is already there. If you have a look at section 9 of the Sentencing Act 2002, it lists 15\u2014actually more than that because some of them are broken down into subsections\u2014aggravating factors that a judge has to take into account. Five of them\u2014at least five of them\u2014would cover the very situation that the member who has sponsored this bill, Le\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor, is trying to cover. If we have a look at section 9(1)(d) of the Sentencing Act, one of the factors that a judge could take into account is \u201Cthe extent of any loss, damage, or harm resulting from the offence:\u201D. Paragraph (f) is \u201Cthat the offender was abusing a position of trust or authority in relation to the victim:\u201D\u2014that includes a parent not using the house for the proper reason for which it ought to be used. Paragraph (g) is \u201Cthat the victim was particularly vulnerable because of his or her age or health or because of any other factor known to the offender:\u201D. There are some other ones there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen you go on to subsection (3), which states some things that the court must not take into account, including whether or not the offender was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. And then subsection (4) is very clear that nothing in those earlier subsections \u201Cprevents the court from taking into account any other aggravating or mitigating factor that the court thinks fit;\u201D, and it goes on to say that that provision does not imply that any particular factor is any less or more important and that they ought to be taken together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe real question, when this bill goes to the Law and Order Committee, is what it is actually adding to our present law. Although we will support this bill going to the select committee, we do not want to continue the trend of criminalising ever more behaviour and adding ever more to our criminal statutes when it may, in fact, be totally pointless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022514b7f63568f484eaa606df481fc8e2a\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00223571c3c554a647d1b47b7a19ca909e5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223571c3c554a647d1b47b7a19ca909e5f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Timothy Macindoe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00225b97c7a19ded475bad7b8f600ef066ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b97c7a19ded475bad7b8f600ef066ca\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E So does my mother when I am in trouble. May I begin, as other speakers have done, by congratulating Le\u2019aufa\u2019amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor on having her member\u2019s bill, the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill, drawn and brought to the House. It is an exciting time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI have to say to Mrs Lole-Taylor that I am a little bit jealous, as I have been here longer than she has and I too have a bill in the members\u2019 ballot that has never looked like being drawn. If it is, it will make a significant difference, I think, to dealing with an aspect of criminal behaviour in our community. But, anyway, I will not be churlish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI congratulate her and I want to acknowledge Denis O\u2019Rourke, who mentioned at the start of his address that National has had a focus since we came into office on building a safer New Zealand. It has, after all, been one of our key Better Public Services targets. We have had a huge number of justice-related and criminal justice - related measures that have come through Parliament, and we are seeing results, with a lower crime rate. In fact, crime is at its lowest level in 30 years, and that is a fantastic achievement. Youth crime is down significantly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0002e6d466e4eb49316052d83fa11a9\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Get the figures right. Why doesn\u2019t the member get the figures right? Doesn\u2019t have an argument. Doesn\u2019t have an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b3b82e06b854aa288c052262a44717e\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I think that Mrs Lole-Taylor is bringing something forward that is a thoughtful contribution to perhaps making another step in the right direction. I hear Mr Little chirping away. He needs to be reminded that before we came into office in 2008, crime was increasing, gangs were on the rampage, courts were overcrowded, and our prisons were particularly overcrowded and had a chronic shortage of beds\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e4951ea731d4cb69d65b4d8146c31f4\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Why can\u2019t this member get the facts right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208fde0abb2e04408a93c8a2fc67eebc6\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I am giving him all the facts. He does not like it. He will not correct me, because he knows that I am right. He will simply continue to barrack. Well, that is fine. I expect that sort of fairly churlish behaviour, but I will just carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EIn recent times we have put 600 extra front-line police on the beat\u2014that is a good measure. We have got a 70 percent increase in police foot patrols as of the end of last year\u2014that is a fantastic achievement. These are some of the reasons why we are getting these major improvements. I have no doubt that these will continue, and at any stage we cannot let up on our focus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThis particular bill amends the Sentencing Act. As I am one of the final speakers, it may be that some people have only just tuned in. The bill will amend the Sentencing Act \u201Cto make criminal offending in the presence of a minor an aggravating factor at sentencing. Where the offending endangers or exposes a minor to potential adverse effects from that offending, the sentence must reflect this.\u201D I am sure we all shudder at the prospect of children being exposed to violent crime or perhaps being brought up in a P lab or seeing some appalling gang activity. What an appalling impact that must be having on these children. There is, sadly, huge evidence that children who grow up in that sort of environment go on to be at risk of committing that sort of criminal activity themselves, and therefore everything we can do to try to prevent that from happening has to be a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI do, however, want to reassure the public who may be listening that the presence of a child and the risk of harm to them are already aggravating factors that can be taken into account by the courts in sentencing, even though they are not specifically listed at the moment in the Sentencing Act. Furthermore, where the offending has involved the presence of children alongside the manufacture of drugs, offenders have also already been charged with neglect offences, and so it should be, because, as I say, the prospect of this happening is so damaging for those children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo, as has been indicated by my colleagues, National is supporting this bill at its first reading so that it can go to the Law and Order Committee so that submissions can be made on it and it can be given due attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EColleagues have also mentioned the Children\u2019s Action Plan. I am a particular fan of, and advocate for, that, because it is part of dealing with the real problem we have with vulnerable children in our community growing up in some dreadful circumstances and being subjected to the most appalling abuse. Sadly, we have one of the worst rates of child murder in the Western World. As I say, this issue is a passion of mine. I acknowledge all those who work in our communities to deal with that issue, and, again, I hope that this bill will make another contribution in that direction, because although we have made some progress, there is still a long way to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI was glad that Mrs Lole-Taylor acknowledged the late Brian Donnelly and the work that he did in this area, and I too echo that. He was a fine member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EWe know that a key to reducing crime long term is to stop children from entering the criminal justice system. This is a bill that may well contribute to that end. It will, I am sure, play a constructive role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo for these reasons I too support its introduction and the fact that it should be sent to the select committee. It sounds, from the way speakers have talked, as if it will be. I again congratulate Mrs Lole-Taylor on her achievement. I will follow the bill\u2019s progress through the select committee and beyond with interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022 data-id=\u0022776e86c3736a411f99d46f5e677a67c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022776e86c3736a411f99d46f5e677a67c8\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava. Malo lava le soifua. I want to acknowledge the contributions by various honourable members tonight. I am reminded of H Jackson Brown Jnr\u2019s words: \u201CLive so that when your children think of fairness, caring, and integrity, they think of you.\u201D\u2014they think of you. During the development of this bill, the Sentencing (Protection of Children from Criminal Offending) Amendment Bill, the memories of my dear eldest nephew reminded me of the difficulties he faced in his first 17 years. If you are listening now, Ioane, I just want you to know that I do love you. Your experience encouraged me to ensure that this bill came to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EI am encouraged by the contributions and support shown by various members in the House tonight. I also want to acknowledge the comments by David Clendon here with regard to prisons and the fact that this week is celebrating PILLARS\u2019 contribution to fathers in prison and their children. Ian McKelvie also mentioned the visits he has made to some of the prisons. I can assure you that I have spent 6 years in the prison environment. I can assure you that I have spent 6 years in the Department of Corrections looking after or catering for the top part of the northern region in this area. Rehabilitation and reintegration is something that is very dear to me. During that time I came across a lot of different generations from the same families. They happen to be the families who come from the same kinds of problems. If it is not domestic violence, it is abuse, rape, or, of course, drug dealing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThis bill takes a clear stand that it is not OK for children to witness and be innocent bystanders to crime. We need to send a clear message that we will no longer sit back and ignore children who are innocently caught up in high-level criminal offending and ongoing crime that leaves them in the path of harm. Children are too often the innocent parties in criminal offending by adults. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the comments that were raised by Jacinda Ardern tonight about the judges that often they do not take it into account, or often they do take it into account, and they should. I suppose the response I can give to that is that judges often forget that the children were involved by the time the sentencing happens. By then they often just give a lenient sentence based on the actual criminal, forgetting that there were children involved and, in addition to that, forgetting the mental and the psychological effect that has on our children in those situations. I do hope that the Law and Order Committee, though, will give that some serious consideration in order to incorporate those comments that were raised by Jacinda Ardern. I sincerely hope that Andrew Little\u2019s concerns will also be addressed, and any of the loopholes that he considered to be missing from this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EWhere offending endangers minors or exposes them to potentially adverse effects, the sentence imposed should reflect that. Criminals should have no right to endanger innocent children. The people of New Zealand expect us to fix this problem. Our children are the future of this nation, and if the individuals around them are not taking responsibility to protect them from harm and a cycle of abuse, and, plus, are initiating them into a life of crime, then surely it is time they are held accountable for their actions. Punishment is not for revenge but to lessen crime and reform the criminal. Decisions in this House should be made based on what is in the best interests of our nation and our people, not on individuals\u2019 needs or personal agenda. I duly commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d47192594c784730a82dc1463faca197\u0022\u003ESocial Security (Clothing Allowances for Orphans and Unsupported Children) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f06ca0a26c5421c8b0e70227e3a1bbb\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022 data-id=\u00228240ce209fff4d659ede519b8addbf97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228240ce209fff4d659ede519b8addbf97\u0022\u003ETRACEY MARTIN (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. I move, That the Social Security (Clothing Allowances for Orphans and Unsupported Children) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services Committee to consider the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThere is a story behind this bill, and I beg the indulgence of the House to explain the personal connection that has been one of the drivers behind this member\u2019s bill. In the 1940s my mother, Anne, was 2 years old and living in Christchurch with her 5-year-old brother, Barry, and their mother, Beverley. Their father, Jim, was away at war. One day Beverley took the kids to the next-door neighbour\u2019s. Nobody knows what she told them, but she left the kids there and that was the last time they ever saw their mother. It would be 45 years later that Anne would be able to make contact with people who would speak about Beverley and what had happened to her after the day that she abandoned her children. We now know that Beverley went on to live a completely new life, never mentioning her children to her new workmates or friends until her passing from toxaemia in the 1950s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ESome months after Beverley left, my mother\u2019s paternal grandmother finally became aware of her grandchildren\u2019s circumstances and showed up at that door. Originally, she took only Barry with her, because Grandfather had said that she could bring the boy home because he could work, but to leave the girl. Thankfully, a few months later, Granny could stand it no longer and she came back to collect little Anne. As life would have it, Anne and Barry were loved and cared for by their granny for approximately the next 8 years. The army deducted a shilling from the children\u2019s father\u2019s pay and paid this to their grandmother. When the war was over their father came home. He took time to readjust to life on Civvy Street. He entered a common-law marriage with Maude Mohi, and it was another traumatic time for these children when their father arrived to take them to live with him and his new wife in Hastings. My great-grandmother shifted to Napier to follow the children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI recognise today that although each circumstance might be different, grandparents are still grandparents and kids are still kids. Nothing has changed but the times we find ourselves in. It is this personal connection and an innate sense of fairness that has been the driver behind this member\u2019s bill under my name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThis bill does one thing and one thing only. Bluntly and in a nutshell, it says that if a child has been identified as an orphan or an unsupported child, then with regard to the clothing allowance eligibility, it makes no difference who is caring for them. A child being cared for by kin carers requires no less clothing than a child being cared for by an unrelated adult. However, orphans and unsupported children are not eligible to receive the clothing allowance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThis member\u2019s bill proposes to give orphans and unsupported children clothing allowance parity with a foster child. Its goal is to have a single section inserted into the Social Security Act, new section 29B: \u201CA person who receives an orphan\u2019s or unsupported child\u2019s benefit in respect of a child is also entitled to receive a clothing allowance for that child at the same rate as is determined by the chief executive from time to time under section 363 of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989.\u201D That is it. That is all this little bill does, but what a difference it will make to the lives of these children and their kin carers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EBefore I enter into the substantive content of this speech, I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the previous and current work by the Minister for Social Development in this area. In 2009 it was the Hon Paula Bennett who took the steps required to raise the main payment that caregivers received to match the orphans benefit and the unsupported child\u2019s benefit to those made to foster carers. This Minister also provided 500 respite care places per year for these children in week-long holiday health camps, and I know that the kin carers were grateful for this support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI also wish to acknowledge that the Minister and I have had positive interactions around our mutual desire to recognise and support these kin carers, who are very often grandparents raising grandchildren. I am grateful to have recently been a member of a ministerial reference group around the allocation of $35 million over the next 4 financial years. That has been set aside in contingency for extended family members caring for children and in recognition of the difficult job that they do. The Minister, however, will also concede that if all children are not recognised as equal inside legislation, then there is a real danger that at the end of that 4-year period, kin carers will once again find themselves back at square one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI also want to recognise that we are, as a nation, in restrictive financial times, and that the select committee will have to take these factors into consideration. However, there are times and there are issues where fairness and equity, particularly where children are concerned, must be the drivers of decision making in the first instance, and then a can-do lens around funding should be applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate what this bill seeks to achieve. The intention of this bill is to recognise in statute that an orphan is an orphan, whether placed with foster parents or caregivers, and that all State support should be based upon the circumstances of the child, not the circumstances of the adult. This must be one of the only pieces of legislation where a distinction is based upon blood and not on any other criteria. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EFor a variety of reasons, more and more children are finding themselves in the unenviable position of being declared an orphan or an unsupported child by the State. Kin carers are being targeted by social services to step up and take in these children, which they do. We should recognise that the majority of kin carers looking after the day-to-day needs of these orphans and unsupported children tend to be grandparents who are now raising their grandchildren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003ESo these kin carers step up, only to find that these children are deliberately disadvantaged through lower support, due to this very kin relationship. Children are being discriminated against by the State due to circumstances beyond their control. I do not believe that there is a member in this House who would argue that if you are raised by your grandparents or auntie, you therefore wear fewer clothes than a child placed with people to whom they are not related. So if we do not argue that, then upon what does this discrimination stand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EJust to make sure we are all clear on how these children find themselves in these circumstances, I would like to outline the criteria for the two separate categories. A child is considered an orphan by the State if their parents have died or cannot be found, or when they cannot look after their child because they have a long-term illness or incapacity. A child is considered an unsupported child when their parents cannot support them because of a family breakdown. Children must be expected to be in caregivers\u2019 care for 12 months or more for support even to be accessed. These criteria have raised their own set of issues for those children whose parents are imprisoned for sentences of 3, 6, or 9 months and who are placed with caregivers. These children are not eligible even for the base support outlined here, but that is for another day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting at this point that when a child is supported by the State in either of these circumstances, the natural parents are required to pay child support through the Inland Revenue Department child support scheme, should they be earning. I would request that the Social Services Committee take this revenue into account when considering this bill and its expenditure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EI would also request that the select committee recognise that more than half of these children are reported as having serious physical and psychological problems as a result of the abuse and neglect they experienced prior to coming into their grandparents\u2019 or kin carers\u2019 homes. However, research shows us that 86 percent of these children report significant improvement over time, and that this is directly attributed to the stability of care, the resilience, and the commitment of these caregivers. We ask the select committee to consider the cost savings these kin carers facilitate for the State by stepping up to the proverbial plate. It is because these individuals do step up that we as a State are not looking at creating orphanages up and down New Zealand, in which to house these close to 10,000 children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EReports have also revealed alarming statistics that show that for 40 percent of caregivers, their total family income was less than $30,000 per annum. Almost 39 percent were solo carers, weighted heavily towards women, who were particularly financially compromised. Several described their struggle to feed and clothe themselves and the children adequately. One stated a wish not to go to bed hungry and for clothes that fit. The incidence of kinship care varies across cultures, with 53 percent of M\u0101ori children in need of care placed with wh\u0101nau and 59 percent of Pacific Island children placed with fono, compared with 31 percent of P\u0101keh\u0101 children placed with extended family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EThis study evidenced that the children in wh\u0101nau or family care do well, but that the lack of parity around the application of the clothing allowance is contributing to the difficulties their children and their caregivers experience. The State has calculated the rate at which the clothing allowance is required inside certain age brackets for children, but the Act creates a situation where, if you are related to the person who steps up to look after you, then you apparently no longer need that support. There are no other criteria that affect this decision. It is completely based on blood relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003EA Labour Government acknowledged this issue. A National Government has acknowledged this issue. It is time to stop talking about it and time to take action. On behalf of these children and carers, I implore all parties in this House to support this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u00228e110f0717d34f5f8b0be077b425a7c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e110f0717d34f5f8b0be077b425a7c9\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Malo le soifua. It is a real privilege tonight to speak on the Social Security (Clothing Allowances for Orphans and Unsupported Children) Amendment Bill. May I first commend the member in charge of the bill, Tracey Martin\u2014first, for sharing your personal story with us and with the nation in terms of why it is important to you, and, second, for bringing this bill to the House. National will support this bill in its first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E It is about equity, as you have outlined in your speech. It is about aligning the rights of orphans and unsupported children to those of foster children. For that I certainly commend you. It is also about supporting children in need. As the member has stated, our Government, this National Government, has put in place a number of measures to support young children, vulnerable children, in need. But there is much more to be done in this area, and, certainly, this bill goes some way to addressing the needs of our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThirdly, this bill assists kin carers, those grandparents and those wh\u0101nau members who are looking after children, sometimes through no choice of their own and sometimes to support a parent, as the member has said, who may be incarcerated, may be missing, or may be taking a break. It supports those family members who take up the challenge of looking after these children in need. I think many people out there and many members here will appreciate the work that kin carers and grandparents do. I have seen it, certainly, in my own family. Having been raised by my grandmother for a number of months in the very early stages of my life, I appreciate those moments and the support that I received personally. But other members here will certainly have stories in their own personal lives and their own families that can relate to this bill specifically. I have also seen the needs of constituents in my electorate office who have come in very much in need and very much wanting to support their wh\u0101nau with limited resources. This bill goes some way to addressing the needs of those people who are looking after these children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EBut, as the member has already stated, we live in fiscally constrained times. Certainly, it is about using taxpayers\u2019 money in a wise way and in an orderly fashion that is targeted to those kids who need these resources the most. But, above all, it is about addressing the needs of those individual children and what is in their best interests, what their needs are, and how the State can, through the Government, support those children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EAs Ms Martin has stated, negotiations have been going on to address some of these needs and to ask how we can better target the spending in this area. The Minister for Social Development has set up a ministerial reference group, of which Tracey Martin is a member, along with our own colleague Alfred Ngaro, as well as representatives from foster care and iwi and of Grandparents Raising Grandchildren. They all have representatives on this group, which is working towards putting together a package of options in order to better give extra financial assistance to, and ideas towards better ways of spending the money on, these children who require it most. That is part of the Children\u2019s Action Plan, which the Minister, the Hon Paula Bennett, is in the process of implementing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI look forward to the deliberations in front of the Social Services Committee, which I chair, because we will be looking at some of the options. We will be looking in good faith at building on the work that has already been under way. I certainly look forward to working across the aisle as well, with a newly appointed spokesperson for the Labour Party, Sue Moroney. I am sure Labour will join other parties across this Chamber tonight to support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EIt also supports the White Paper for Vulnerable Children, which was announced and where this funding\u2014$10 million worth of additional kin carers\u2019 costs\u2014will be covered. Certainly, it is part of an overall regime whereby we are implementing laws to address the needs of vulnerable children. We have just heard earlier tonight about another bill looking at sentencing that the honourable member Le\u2019au Asenati Lole-Taylor introduced. That bill is another part of the jigsaw puzzle that will go towards mitigating just some of the factors involved in caring for our vulnerable children. Also, as the member in charge of this bill stated, in 2009 National ensured that kin carers got the same weekly amount as foster carers. Again, it was about equity in terms of the weekly amounts that these kids received. It was about addressing a need in the community, and this Government again responded swiftly to that upon coming into Government to address those inequities in the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI just want to touch briefly on other parenting support that is out there in our communities. This Government, in partnership with Grandparents Raising Grandchildren, as well as The Parenting Place, which is an organisation that does wonderful work in our communities, has developed a tailored tool box programme specifically for kin caregivers, at a cost of $600,000 per year. It acts as a refresher course for grandparents who are, for whatever reason, returning to front-line parenting duties, maybe many years after having raised their own children and after having taken a break. The course gives a little bit of insight into how children\u2019s early experiences might affect them now and into the future. They are useful tools, and it is part of providing not just the resources like direct funding but also the tools to allow kin carers to better look after the kids who are within their guidance and their care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ESo this bill, as I said at the outset, is a commendable bill. It is a bill that really does focus on those kids who are in need. I still believe that much work needs to be done in terms of targeting some of those dollars to the needs of children and their wh\u0101nau, and when we talk about these kids, in particular, we are talking about kids whose carers are predominantly from low socio-economic groups. You know, every dollar that is dedicated to the kids\u2019 upbringing is certainly valued by those wh\u0101nau and the families who are looking after these young kids. So this bill is commendable. It is a bill that we are certainly looking forward to assessing in the select committee. It will help those many thousands of children out there who need assistance. I certainly commend this bill to the House and look forward to its process through the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022684431ead44d48d9bbc139e36d3bffd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022684431ead44d48d9bbc139e36d3bffd4\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am just so desperate to get my opportunity to put Labour\u2019s perspective on this bill, the Social Security (Clothing Allowances for Orphans and Unsupported Children) Amendment Bill, on the table before we finish for the evening. I want to start by adding my thanks to the member Tracey Martin of New Zealand First for bringing this really important piece of legislation to this House. We do not often get the opportunity to discuss the really important work that carers in New Zealand do, and this is an opportunity not only to raise that but also to highlight the fact that there are some inequities in the way that our system works. So I thank the member for bringing in this bill. I thank her for sharing her personal experiences. I am looking forward to the chance at the Social Services Committee, for all of the other members\u2014although I have recently departed that select committee\u2014to start looking at some of those inequities, and I wanted to touch on some of that just quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere has already been some discussion over the support that exists for foster carers through the Ministry of Social Development. Obviously, they receive some basic boarding assistance. But, alongside that, foster carers do receive the clothing allowance that this bill confers on other carers. They receive some assistance for birthdays and Christmas. That may seem surprising to members of this House, but I can tell members that I come across families who are living in impoverished situations where children know only one birthday in the household because the family can afford to celebrate only once. So the children think that they were all born on the same day. That is the kind of circumstance some children grow up in. So I think it is entirely correct that some of our nation\u2019s most deprived children, who often end up in foster care, are supported to have things that New Zealanders consider are a normal part of a child\u2019s upbringing. They also get support for pocket money, education, and medical needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe thing I want to highlight is that foster carers do not raise children for money. They get a very basic allowance that almost entirely across the board does not even cover the cost of taking on that child. They do it for love, generosity of spirit, and their sense of duty to New Zealand. There are 5,000 children at any one time who are in the care of the State and who may be in the care of foster carers. They might be in a residential facility, or they might still have Child, Youth and Family oversight for kinship care. It is a discrepancy, in my view and in Labour\u2019s view, that we do not provide that kind of assistance to groups like the Grandparents Raising Grandchildren Trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut our contention is that rather than just applying one element of what foster carers are able to receive to those who are kinship carers, why do we not treat all kinship carers as we do foster carers? Why do we not remove that discrepancy altogether? These are often family members themselves who do not have the resources but do have the desire to support the children of their wider family members in whatever circumstances they find themselves in, particularly grandparents raising grandchildren, who are often living on a pension and finding themselves dealing with not only legal expenses that come with looking after these children but much, much more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere is a distinction I want to make, because some people ask what the difference is between a foster carer and someone who is classified as having an unsupported child or orphan. Well, actually, to qualify, if you are a grandparent, you cannot be a foster carer, because you are a grandparent. It is the same with a kinship carer, so that is where there is a distinction there. But the way that it is defined by Work and Income is that it is looking for family breakdown. It will be looking to see whether or not there are reasons that mean that child cannot be with their family. Some grandparents, therefore, do not even get the unsupported child\u2019s benefit. There might not be a technical breakdown, but the grandparent knows that the environment the child is living in is not a good environment for that child to be in, but they themselves are often deprived of that support because of the strict criteria that exist. I would hope that the select committee would look at that as well in its considerations, because it is a significant issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI am glad that Tracey Martin has the ability to work with the Government on some of these issues. We would have liked to help too, but I have great faith, given that the member is there, that she is carrying over some of the views that we have. We need to look more generally at foster care in this country. We need to have a look at the fact that foster carers do not receive a lot of support from the State. We need to look at kinship care. Those are all things that Labour will do when in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0068c8683154984a1dbad8f5dff6fd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0068c8683154984a1dbad8f5dff6fd9\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Ahn nyung has se yo. It is a great pleasure to rise to support the first reading of this Social Security (Clothing Allowances for Orphans and Unsupported Children) Amendment Bill. Like previous speakers I would like to congratulate Tracey Martin on bringing this bill to the House. I would also like to bid my farewell to Jacinda Ardern from the Social Services Committee. She has actually often brought a very clear view of the Labour position on the bills that we have discussed in the select committee. I look forward to working with the new spokesperson from the Labour Party, Sue Moroney. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is to increase financial support to kin carers who are looking after children, such as grandparents raising grandchildren. Many members have talked about the issues earlier and, I guess, I look forward to the select committee process because often members are exposed to more information about issues that they may not necessarily be familiar with. This particular issue about children being raised by grandparents\u2014orphans and unsupported children\u2014are important issues that we must consider, and I am seriously looking forward to the submission process in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EJust to bring a little bit of ethnic perspective into this, grandparents often raise children. Even my own mother is, I feel, raising my child, because often as members of Parliament we do leave our homes for long periods of time. Often I am not at home enough to look after my teenage son. My son has just celebrated his 15th birthday and often I do feel very, very guilty that he is at the most important time of his life and his mum is actually not at home. And being a single mum is also very difficult as well, so having my mother, his grandmother, at home raising him to provide the emotional support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201309252b227fbd500e49d3bcba40aa928c76b6000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"