"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b43bb3183e94a3eacf4ffe7846d38b0\u0022\u003ETuesday, 19 November 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3f26dd3750e47a29e26887177822407\u0022\u003ETuesday, 19 November 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d54a34fbd6e14866adadd1a0ce2bd085\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ef70c64a0e141b1a0bdd1a32b870373\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213d0c439cef740528a2cc3bb4f1b18f5\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Public Support and Future Plans\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea66dbe1aca46738218aa8e206ad7bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea66dbe1aca46738218aa8e206ad7bb\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Why has he announced that the Government plans to end its asset sales programme given that he claims it has been a success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002243f0307263334ab48b7c39890bee2c0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243f0307263334ab48b7c39890bee2c0e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I merely pointed out that the Government\u2019s only plan is the share offer programme set out in January 2011, on which we campaigned all of election year\u2014and the Government actually won that election; not the Opposition, as it alleged the other day. If there were any further share sales we would be transparent about it and campaign on it. The programme is a success because we have met the objectives we set 3 years ago in the sales that we have executed so far, with another one to be completed today or tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed531d646ca74f45b960e6ba13ac2d52\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can he categorically rule out selling Kiwibank at any point in the future, given that when he was asked in 2008 whether he wants to sell Kiwibank, his answer was: \u201CEventually, but not now.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257f6eddca9d5424d8ae36c25c43f7320\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That, I understand, was a tape-recording, which, by the admission of the person who recorded it, was doctored. I can give the member that categorical assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b742c7d0fc545168e5e2ad14856a6c3\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can he categorically rule out selling the $1.3 billion Landcorp at any point in the future, given that it was National Party policy to sell Landcorp in the 2005 election campaign, when the current Prime Minister was National\u2019s finance spokesperson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5809e930f3d4b8c88d760c1d708269e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is actually selling bits of Landcorp all the time. The member may not be aware of it but the point of Landcorp was to preserve lands and survey farms for the purposes of Treaty settlements. As Treaty settlements are executed, the Government is involved in selling bunches of five, six farms. I know that offends the Greens deeply because they think the Government should own all the farms and then shut them down, but, actually, we want to get on with Treaty settlements. Landcorp is buying and leasing farms as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c69f2b0692b7441ab320ddab59c246ea\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that that was a no, can he categorically rule out selling the remaining 51 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223273add995d5485d93f51958c3d4808c\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022923f76cc4a324ca080dea9a3b25347a0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Dr Gerry Brownlee\u2014Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b05e7c6a504fe895faba060a6def84\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Gerry Brownlee!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a0a93996d14a8d8b362af904348b32\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s impossible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220209ec423bb3498598b4b52e6ba4f084\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is probably true. The Hon Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bffd8f75aea5422aa1206f02a7ea57bf\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I am not surprised that you would make that mistake, Mr Speaker. Can I just ask you to consider whether it is appropriate for someone asking a question to start with the words: \u201CGiven that that was a no,\u201D? That is not acceptable and Mr Norman needs to be held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405a8e9128754b0aa909f2b452606241\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly not a useful way to start a question because in actual fact, it was not factual, given the answer the Minister gave. But in this case, if the member could just ask a supplementary question he would assist the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a64150119724e3580e59dcde4ed65ec\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I take it from your intervention that you have interpreted the Minister\u2019s answer as a yes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb6d0296da474e769fb6f19dd26a48e0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly interpreted the answer as a satisfactory answer to the question that the member gave. If the member wants to continue asking supplementary questions on this question, then we will do so, but if not, we will move to question No. 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249fcfa28963646b49a7d61076c6106b5\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister categorically rule out selling at any point in the future the remaining 51 percent of the electricity companies that remain in public ownership given that partial privatisation was a stepping stone to full privatisation for the Bank of New Zealand in the 1990s?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cca8b23a7f2410ea8f78a2165845933\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can give the member that assurance, and I am pleased he has now realised that these companies are 51 percent owned by the Government. I hope he will inform all of those who want to vote in his referendum that that is the case, because those who have listened to him so far think that these companies have been 100 percent sold when they have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229516ec2f79694960a85ee9cb9e2d6408\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can he categorically rule out privatising ACC at any point in the future, given that it was a previous National Government that privatised ACC in the past?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec8005f77b16484696f04363da6057da\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can do that, but I am very pleased with the performance of our ACC Ministers, Nick Smith and Judith Collins, who have overseen a remarkable turn-round in the performance of that organisation, after it was left in a complete mess by the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94d6e7c25004c949476bdd6103211d6\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s previous comments in support of Kiwibank, in light of the fact that it has been National Party policy previously to sell Landcorp, and in light of the fact that a previous National Government did privatise the ACC, is it not true that the National Party wants to sell assets but that it is public pressure that prevents it from doing so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bfb5aab6cd144d08d197cddd5038ef9\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, what is true is that when the National Party sets out to execute a policy that is challenging for the public, we make it quite transparent what we are going to do if we are elected, and we give the voters the chance to cast their votes knowing that those policies have been proposed. I would invite that member to set out just as transparently, and in detail before the election, the impact of his climate change policy on household costs so that voters have the chance to look at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b263644f5ccc4e62a8e2d7e16c7c33af\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: How can members of the public express their opposition to the Government\u2019s asset sales programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb7216edbdd41789f6b0b788b3127f2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: They take the opportunity, I am sure, sometimes to address that directly to MPs. They had the opportunity in the 2011 election to weigh up the significance of that policy versus others, and if they had followed the direction of the member, they knew that the 2011 election was a referendum on asset sales. As I recall it, under the rules of our democracy the National Party and its supporters won that election. In fact, the Opposition did not win the election, as that member claimed last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5dd5112df049beb30629f589e3aaad\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is public pressure the only thing that will stop National privatising more assets, given its intent from the past; and given that public pressure can be expressed first by voting \u201CNo\u201D to asset sales in the upcoming referendum, is that a perfect way for the public to have their views expressed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a92e395ce91647109fb29d1a34b73eae\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member is now scraping around for a reason to try to make his referendum look relevant, when, of course, it never was because the Government had a mandate, and it got that mandate because it announced its policy 11 months ahead of an election, campaigned on it in detail, and debated it with the Opposition. One of the results of that was that the National Party received the highest-ever single party vote under MMP. So we proceeded with that plan, it is almost finished, and the member can do what he likes with his referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a580f26952f34f90bceca990a504dded\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229506b5afe05a438499cda5314564c87a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229506b5afe05a438499cda5314564c87a\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I raise it under Speaker\u2019s ruling 152/1. Question No. 2 was originally set down for the Prime Minister and it asked whether he stood by a particular statement that he had made. The Government has chosen to transfer that to the Attorney-General. Under Speaker\u2019s ruling 152/1 and also Speakers\u2019 ruling 151/5, which would allow you to potentially not allow the transfer of a question, the practice of the Government when we ask questions about specific statements that have been made in this case by the Prime Minister\u2014to transfer that to, the Attorney-General, I do believe, breaches these Speakers\u2019 rulings, in this case. How Mr Finlayson would be able to read the mind of the Prime Minister in this case, I do not know. I would ask under what circumstances you would be prepared to intervene in a situation such as this, when a question is about whether a particular Minister, in this case the Prime Minister, stands by the statement, and that is why we put the question down to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2ce4a19b8044c3088ed35e277da426c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2ce4a19b8044c3088ed35e277da426c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Can I suggest that if the member had watched the news for perhaps just the first few minutes of the last number of days, he would have realised that there was always going to be a question about who might be answering this particular question. It does raise the issue of, if it was so specific to a Minister, why in this circumstance it was asked of that Minister, given the knowledge that the Opposition had about the ability of that Minister to answer today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccd7359f2a0b411890bd0a30cfd07146\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccd7359f2a0b411890bd0a30cfd07146\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E That is all very well, and I did watch the news, at least until the first ad break, and I did notice that the Prime Minister was not here. That is, of course, irrelevant in this House because Mr English is the Acting Prime Minister and speaks for the Prime Minister. We wanted to know whether the Prime Minister stood by his statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a551ab9dbf4c4145a34fb7d9cafaede7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a551ab9dbf4c4145a34fb7d9cafaede7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I address the last part of the first point of order the member raised: in what circumstances I would not consider accepting a transfer. That would be a circumstance where I saw it was an attempt by the Government to not give an answer to this House as required. In this particular case I am aware of a discussion that took place with the Office of the Clerk. The essence of the question is what is important, and the essence of the question is: the Government believes there is no cause of action to further consider compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn that regard the Government speaks with one voice, and on this occasion I think the Government has a perfect right, in line with the Speaker\u2019s ruling to which the member refers, Speaker\u2019s ruling 152/1, to make that transfer. So the question has been transferred, and now the Hon David Cunliffe can indeed ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7c7db9f6c114c24975eb2cad8bbfd11\u0022\u003EPike River Mine Disaster\u2014Compensation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00228ff2c57d75fa4a38b3c5d7c6f92b7265\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ff2c57d75fa4a38b3c5d7c6f92b7265\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Attorney-General: has he been advised whether the Prime Minister stands by his statement that \u201Cthe Government believes\u201D\u2014[Interruption]\u2014\u201Cthere is no cause of action\u201D to help contribute to the compensation for the Pike River families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f30cc46feaa84b1283caaacd791dfecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f30cc46feaa84b1283caaacd791dfecd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I just ask security\u2014[Interruption] We will just wait for a minute while security deals with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EA disturbance took place in the gallery, and members of the public were removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002243cbaef3c6e64679b27ed5d75c28f4b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243cbaef3c6e64679b27ed5d75c28f4b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I just remind the media that there are some rules around the filming of that particular incident. I am happy to talk to the media after the event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022277ce04974894366914ca65cfe4795e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022277ce04974894366914ca65cfe4795e0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Attorney-General: Has he been advised whether the Prime Minister stands by his statement that \u201Cthe Government believes there is no cause of action\u201D to help contribute to the compensation for the Pike River families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022aefaf05fce004321a235c1ca8763906c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aefaf05fce004321a235c1ca8763906c\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and yes. The Prime Minister stands by his statement when it is read in full and in context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229caf73d199a34161a4969fd0b3e3ce2c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when the court has awarded compensation against Pike River Coal Ltd and the Department of Labour was found sufficiently at fault for its Minister to resign, has the Government decided to take no action to either compensate or enforce compensation for the families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc8f5c174ee4484e9c9e0346db3ff8f2\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: There are two parts to that question. The first is whether or not there is a legal obligation on the part of the Crown for the company that the member refers to. There is not. Then there is a second part to the question about the Department of Labour. The Government is very aware of its obligations to these families on today, of all days, which is why it has an ACC scheme to ensure that people are compensated. We have worked closely with the families over the past few years to try to help them through this dreadful time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04e5140268d41438ee5073cd27a0d09\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister hiding behind generalities like ACC when the Pike River partners are without husbands, children are without fathers, and families are without compensation, and does he agree with the Minister of Labour, Simon Bridges, that Cabinet considered whether it had further moral obligations but decided that it did not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3790e0ef8a490a90b305643eb24348\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is fully aware of its obligations to these families. We are not hiding behind the ACC scheme at all. The issue is whether or not the Government has a legal obligation to pay compensation or damages, and that is the issue. The member himself, in his press conference, has admitted as much, because he said he would make an ex gratia payment without any admission of liability. There are two different things here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245024681fd7b43c0aa773990d031230c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. First of all, to the best of my knowledge, I did not use the phrase \u201Cex gratia\u201D, but if the Minister would care\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b08c43d13df748e7ad1214a314608fa0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not a point of order; that is a debating matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224dbe38b7d6146fbaf191b7d84c2fc9a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the report of the Royal Commission on the Pike River Coal Mine Tragedy, in which it concludes that the Department of Labour was at fault\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6efe44312b14040be06e05c77861517\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! That document has been made available to all members of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223519c3a061574a50a5324b955af17693\u0022\u003EBusiness Growth Agenda\u2014Progress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022988a6abf8c57417d9405e7067d0d1a54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022988a6abf8c57417d9405e7067d0d1a54\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What progress is the Government making in building a more competitive and productive economy that supports more jobs and higher incomes for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022553928459f134f6b9021e0842ec44688\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022553928459f134f6b9021e0842ec44688\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is making good progress. A more productive economy will be able to support higher wages for New Zealanders. Yesterday Minister Steven Joyce and I issued the 2013 progress report for the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda. This covers around 350 initiatives across capital markets, innovation, skilled and safe workplaces, natural resources, infrastructure, and export markets. It is all focused on creating the conditions for business to invest another dollar and employ another person for jobs and growth, and for the regions to take advantage of the enormous opportunities available to them. I would recommend that the Opposition reads the update to observe the significant progress the Government has made across a broad range of economic policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249fe1fc89df542c98ba9b5a6edbd03bd\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the Business Growth Agenda initiatives have been completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223156f951b4c84cdda76ae498dc4e868a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There are a large number of initiatives because there is not one significant or even half a dozen significant policies that would transform this economy. Nearly half of the 350 initiatives have now been completed, and 120 more are in the implementation phase. So, for example, 23 of the 55 export market initiatives have been completed. They include the first phase of the New Zealand Story, improving New Zealand firms\u2019 access to international markets, and a range of initiatives to increase value from tourism and from our international education sector. Work has already begun to identify future priorities for the Business Growth Agenda\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022444b0c2d7ead4afa807ef5848283f252\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s No. 7? What\u2019s No. 8? All bulldust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1b33dc8b9842d09b3121c70088d369\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and that member would be welcome to contribute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f7888e6f1144a1965b0c1d267327e4\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: According to the progress report issued this week, what other progress is the Government making across the Business Growth Agenda?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022970f4dee94ea40cbb207670b34413c9d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There are so many things to pick from. We remain on track for surplus in 2014-15. The Government has completed two Government share offers and a third is under way, putting billions of dollars into the Future Investment Fund for investing in new public assets\u2014money that we have sourced mainly from New Zealand investors, rather than the preferred option for the Opposition, which is foreign bankers. We have established Callaghan Innovation and made $566 million in research and development grants available over 4 years. And we have announced the 10 National Science Challenges, which have fully engaged the interests of the scientific community. There are dozens more initiatives, but I do not have time to go through them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e2f2b866e324248b51e8a44a723b37b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re so riveting!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b89ffc19f3df49909d1e5d2d3ca8adcd\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Very good indeed. I am glad the member is enjoying them. How is progress with the Business Growth Agenda being reflected in recent economic indicators?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7c5e858faf43a990d0de284c4daafe\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Reasonably well, and I think rather better than the Opposition would have hoped. Economic growth is gaining momentum and we have one of the fastest-growing developed economies in the world, probably in the top half-dozen. Unemployment is falling, 53,000 new jobs were created in the past year, and wages and household incomes are growing moderately. We are particularly pleased with how well the regions have done, leading New Zealand out of the recession. Most regions have stronger growth and lower unemployment than, for instance, our larger metropolitan area of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293cb4cd3bb3a424e84fa39ad760155bf\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that a more competitive and productive economy would result from destroying a proven animal productivity innovation hub surrounding Invermay, Dunedin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f9e9a4750334484b2df46e83b59c6cb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will know, the relevant research community\u2014that is, the scientists who provide, and have done for many years, the high levels of research and development for the agricultural industry\u2014has been through a process to try to decide how to do a better job of what it does. Part of the task was for that research community to explain, particularly to the rural community, including those in my electorate, just what the benefits of the changes at Invermay would be. I am sure that that will be a fruitful discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b96b255b705e45aba10105333f50d261\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the most recent report, which the Otago Daily Times said blew the business case\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2618d36ed13440eb0367005e2fd7fa1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If that is a newspaper clipping\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce074f0b5d341879eff3545dcefbdb6\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, the independent report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e622f0ad913b4011957d0e12aab8d944\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it in the public arena?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b931c9aeeb7d42bda81fb0842228177f\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: It is not, as far as I am aware.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228029a8e7c5934bb292c6aaaabf0d128d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not. On that basis I will take the member\u2019s word for it and I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table that particular document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ce108a6e5fd41f6a8f92eb7376a855a\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Pike River Mine Compensation and Sale of Air New Zealand Shares\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00221bec3eb5aeb945b2b4ca4fe858717bdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bec3eb5aeb945b2b4ca4fe858717bdb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0aa0c162cb444eaa7f774eb5097838\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0aa0c162cb444eaa7f774eb5097838\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a1bcdd0fab4f7fb544ca3c6c20e8c9\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cthe Government believes there is no cause of action\u201D to help compensate the Pike River families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1b0d3aad74433a960674f45da85c5f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by the full statement in the context in which it was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cad8fd3d5b6498eac21a3f070719ff0\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why will his Government not pursue the parent shareholder of Pike River, New Zealand Oil and Gas, which has received $42 million in insurance payouts since the company incurred the disaster and which has a moral obligation to contribute to the compensation of the Pike River families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2f89c5f29446a9a885212f767c9d12\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has no legal means of doing so. There may be extralegal means, and that might be what the member should explain, because he, as I understand it, has announced that he will pursue the company if he is in Government. He needs to explain just on what basis he would do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257576af06d394603bb511a98125051aa\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware of whether ACC and the New Zealand Superannuation Fund were among the New Zealand Oil and Gas shareholders who voted against paying compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227190ec3c5be14a1ba70e0f12a5cf073b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not aware of how they may or may not have voted on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212808fc892f7428397dab54a15f72129\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I might be able to help the Acting Prime Minister. Given that 99 percent of the shareholders of New Zealand Oil and Gas voted against paying compensation, and given that ACC owns 6 percent of it and the New Zealand Superannuation Fund owns 1.2 percent of it, has he been able to work out whether they voted for or against compensation, or perhaps he could ask them whether they voted for or against compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263264616bb714355b93ab64e536a43ed\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I would want to look into the facts of the matter, rather than rely on the member\u2019s assertions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abc5ad51580499faf80c02ba6f17fe6\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when Solid Energy has been paid $1.2 million of the insurance money when none was paid out to the families, has the Prime Minister taken no action in respect of Solid Energy, which the Crown owns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf1d641aab6431fbc81dc76c6084d75\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not exactly sure what connection the member is trying to draw there. I think that we need to keep in mind here that in the case of Pike River, we have seen a real tragedy that has created real suffering for those families. I think that every member of Parliament would find that week to week they are also dealing with families who have suffered real tragedy, although not in such large numbers. The question the member is opening up is the obligation of the Crown to deal with all of those cases in the way he is suggesting we should deal with Pike River.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266767625457e4d218cf08d642192d69b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given that, in this particular case, 29 miners are dead, a royal commission has found that one of his ministries is partially culpable for failing to close the mine, the Minister responsible has resigned, a court has ordered compensation, the parent of the company now in receivership has refused to pay that compensation, two Crown entities that are ultimately answerable to him through their boards have voted against the parent company paying compensation, and yet another Crown entity has received insurance payouts and refused to contribute a cent, has the Government honoured all of its moral obligations to the Pike River families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c12c3394fa242868c12578d946d20c9\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to that question is yes, in the same way\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a43e36d4cd48a9a86f1884acf6b698\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Shame!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf917729f104db9ab8c3989508adb87\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014listen\u2014that the Government honours its obligations to every single family in New Zealand who suffers from a death in the workplace, or from a death by accident, or from lifelong disability. Any Government has to keep in mind the hidden, as well as the high profile, tragedies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0b886b0e0d4fa19ba6f0a08b616b1a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Prime Minister say last Thursday that no immediate sale of Air New Zealand shares was planned and that he had not received any advice on the sale, when he must have known that the sale process was going to begin in less than 24 hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be96b2bb9cdc4077b1f2a2bdc33a48af\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: He said it because it was correct. The decision that Air New Zealand would be sold at some stage had actually been signalled 3 years ago\u2014almost 3 years ago\u2014and the final decision to proceed with the transaction was made on Friday last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb71e5807a04f58817211fc630e0017\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that a day before that statement, the Australian Financial Review and the New Zealand Herald were carrying initial reports of the imminent sale of the airline, and why does he think it is fair that the so-called Kiwi mum and dad investors were kept in the dark by their own Prime Minister until Sunday, while at the same time insiders, sharebrokers, and institutions were being told the opposite as early as the Wednesday prior?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e502368e155f40d3ac89d1c9fd1720bc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member is simply wrong. [Interruption] Well, he is. There is a complex set of rules, passed by this Parliament just recently, that govern the procedure around this sort of sale. The Government has stuck to it, and the member\u2019s allegations about the Prime Minister misleading people are simply wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f3b004f4cdd427b9db421aa4b66c608\u0022\u003EImmigration New Zealand\u2014Performance and Reports of Illegal Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002245515b985d854fe88b8256ec5d9af5c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245515b985d854fe88b8256ec5d9af5c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What concerns, if any, does he have regarding the operation of Immigration New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022948a3cec2a3a463bb9983676319e81dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022948a3cec2a3a463bb9983676319e81dc\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I am constantly concerned to ensure that the operation of Immigration New Zealand contributes to fair, timely, and consistent decision-making across its global network, and I am pleased to report that that vigilance is paying off. Despite significant increases in demand, there have been material improvements in all measures of those things when compared with the previous Government, with whom that member\u2019s party had a confidence and supply agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0a16019a2148e3b92986d4753ce5c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Which part of that answer was relevant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4fb6d2a4861431393190bd028dd3b74\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Is this a supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c75b003178224045a8023c8447327a5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: A supplementary question. Well, apparently anything goes now\u2014but supplementary question. When did he first, as Minister of Immigration, become aware of Iraqi national Mr Abu Tarek\u2014real name, Hakim Salga\u2014issuing false documentation to smuggle people into New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227271d833982549c0ae9447e34945c450\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: There is absolutely no evidence that that is the case. What I have become aware of is that one reporter has spoken to another reporter, who claims to have spoken to a people-smuggler, who claims to be making outrageous claims about the opportunities to emigrate to New Zealand. I can reassure the House and that member that there is absolutely no evidence of the veracity of any of those claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264503d11071847feaee67a4d2a688b89\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of the Australian journalist and the team who tracked this man for 2 months, is the Minister saying that all the evidence they got that led them to produce a report on people-smuggling into this country\u2014because we are a soft touch\u2014is not true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e71c7302e440c5a8878fd3681c5933\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: I am saying two things. Firstly, people-smugglers are not only heinous criminals but liars. Secondly, we have, in association with the Customs Service and immigration officials, very, very good border protection processes, which mean that people cannot simply board a plane and claim asylum at the border. In fact, I can report that in the last 3 months there has not been a single Lebanese national who has done so. Probably in the region of four or five jumbo jets worth of people have been declined boarding on to the plane as a consequence of those processes, so I am confident that it is nothing more than a heinous lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1f383a7b43247639479efdf0a18acf8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, if Abu Tarek\u2014real name Hakim Salga\u2014is a liar, why did he call him a people-smuggler?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060d8a4bab65426398dea306200609cc\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because he is, but he may well also be a people-smuggler. What I am confident of at this stage, on the very good information made available by the Customs Service and Immigration New Zealand, is that the claims that were made on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation\u2019s Four Corners show last night\u2014which, I hasten to add, mentioned New Zealand only once in the 45-minute show\u2014are not correct. We are vigilant and we are continuing to monitor the situation, but I am satisfied that our borders are safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271633b82b7164c3db5bbbb024411ba85\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is proven on this issue to be wrong, will he resign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54d605c13564ad38936f88640fe289f\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by every single statement I have made. I can reassure the House that if there are errors in process, they will be quickly remedied. But there is no evidence that that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224908d93179244ed8b3643ee1d338a74e\u0022\u003EHon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The core part of that question is simply this: if the Minister is proven to be wrong on this issue, will he resign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d39552990a42fca7295c7f602f33d7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The question was heard by not only the Minister but members. The Minister can answer, and I will address whether he addresses the question. Does the Minister wish to conclude his answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022299299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88957762ae44bf09863ac0adb4bfe76\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ffed4021654ab6b7a416043bc739e1\u0022\u003EHon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Your ruling was that if he completes his question, you could make a judgment on it then. I asked him whether, if he is proven to be wrong as Minister, he will resign. It is a clear enough question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b0d51d4f79a46b3853901774f4a6ef1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question was very clear; there is no doubt about that. It has now been repeated three times. The Minister was giving an answer and it was interrupted, so I did not hear the last part of the Minister\u2019s answer. I asked the Minister whether he wanted to complete his answer. He said he did not, so the matter rests there if the Minister does not want to complete his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b95f1a780d3644deac29c5c443518587\u0022\u003EHon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, it does not rest there because my contention was that he was not answering the question. Your response was that he had not had a chance to finish it. Now, when you gave him a chance to finish it, he no longer wished to answer the question, suggesting that I was right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a4a791b2924fd9b94724336bbd700c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The essence of the complication here is that the member, in asking the question, wants a categoric yes or no answer. He cannot insist on that, and there are consistent Speakers\u2019 rulings that say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a4a40d89f54a8496a6b02b6caeb1ee\u0022\u003EHon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe62725f01c94a9193147a76f91616aa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I want to be fair to the member. Can I just clarify now\u2014I have ruled on that matter. If the member wants to raise a fresh point of order, he is quite entitled to do so, but to now continue to relitigate a decision that I have made will only bring this House into disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e83966a66624626ac2626c5612c620a\u0022\u003EHon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, Mr Speaker, I do not believe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225092c87bb35d4ad1a71c20df52592c48\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa52235f0c0c48e08679aed040c76201\u0022\u003EHon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It is. I do not think that such a procedure is seen out there by the public to bring anything into disorder. They would like to know the answer as much as the House and I do. My real point is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212286dd81f6d4b5f83726f170be9e833\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: So that wasn\u2019t a real one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222641aa3e5d314cab8e9a7e4d7b835f41\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is my real, new point. For the slow-witted, it is my real, new point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ac4f238363f4a88838226355533fda0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will now resume his seat. This matter has now gone on for long enough. I asked the member whether he was raising a fresh point of order. All he has done is relitigate an answer whereby he wanted a clear yes or no answer. The Speakers\u2019 rulings are quite consistent. He cannot do that. If the member rises to his feet to relitigate again, I will have no choice, sadly, but to ask the member to leave the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4fa87f95ec14cef989e15d209241dde\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I will be back tomorrow with a better one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238329d65652b43958b1684c4817ff7a8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the member is welcome to come back tomorrow with a better one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022239c65d8255143fd83664530b10dfe45\u0022\u003ESchools, Canterbury\u2014Building and Redevelopment Projects\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u002299790f52ea6d4e1cbac0d03b95a24cdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299790f52ea6d4e1cbac0d03b95a24cdc\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcement has she made on the single largest investment in education infrastructure in Christchurch? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a00bceb9d35b49fea195f4e60318c39b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a00bceb9d35b49fea195f4e60318c39b\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Last week the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery and I announced that 80 percent of classrooms across Greater Christchurch will be modernised within 10 years, changing the way teachers teach and children learn. The Christchurch earthquakes had the biggest impact ever on educational infrastructure in New Zealand. The damage sustained demanded a significant response and a serious investment. This Government is investing over $1 billion in a 10-year programme to provide modern learning environments for the children and young people of Greater Christchurch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca3b76d8f264d5cbf872a941515ac10\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government opted to spend $1.137 billion rather than just repair existing facilities at a lower cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222966db26a949480c952a9aebe877118b\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The Government looked at a range of options for education renewal, and it chose the most comprehensive option requiring the biggest investment because it will generate the greatest lift in educational achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bea7287b566f4c8ca2914dbfab200119\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: What other educational issues confront Christchurch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d90e20adcf045fd99f495dd360ef49f\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The issues that confront Christchurch are those that confront New Zealand as a whole. Although our education system is top-performing for many, it is not for all. This Government is focused on raising achievement for the children and young people of Christchurch and across the entire country. To achieve this, the Government has been investing in, and delivering on, a plan to better engage with parents, report on achievement data, value and strengthen the teaching profession, and support 21st century learning environments. The delivery of safe and inspiring, modern and connected learning environments will support a lift in student engagement and drive up achievement levels across Greater Christchurch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f67337a4e724a88b1a2fab3cdd74c60\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How much of the over $1 billion announced last week will come from money the schools were already due to receive in the form of regular property funding, leaky buildings remediation, and insurance payouts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e95033add854409e9d76c7d2b146234a\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: It is no secret that the $1 billion investment includes Government moneys appropriated for property, it includes an insurance payout, and it will include new money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d95427d6534725ba83a062b964fbc6\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204bdef70a5fa41ff88ede8dab5771488\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just invite the member to repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f8e13894bef47ca92cb19a560e75313\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How much of the over $1 billion announced last week will come from money the schools were already due to receive in the form of regular property funding, leaky buildings remediation, and insurance payouts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccf6232d85ff4a069c04c2b67610ff8b\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot give you that absolute detail, because we do not yet have the insurance payout and because those other matters are still being factored in. The fact is that the Christchurch community is getting over $1 billion invested, which will modernise 80 percent of classrooms in that education network.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2791dec37474ce5a3dcfb3dae8e4ede\u0022\u003EHousing, Affordable\u2014First-home Buyers, New Builds, and Reserve Bank Intervention\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022669fe7e2782d4d39b13075e01917b370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E7. PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022669fe7e2782d4d39b13075e01917b370\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Was he advised prior to signing the Reserve Bank Memorandum of Understanding that LVR restrictions would disproportionally affect first-home buyers and that regional exemptions would not apply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b44f6e73fdd9469aaf6899c0bd9c1f05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b44f6e73fdd9469aaf6899c0bd9c1f05\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the member\u2019s question, no, because the discussion prior to signing the memorandum was not a discussion of that nature. The memorandum of understanding gives effect to the macro-prudential tools for the purposes of financial stability. It covers the four tools that were discussed: adjustments to core funding ratios, the counter-cyclical capital buffer, adjustments to sectoral capital requirements, and quantitative restrictions on the share of high loan-to-value ratio loans on residential property. As part of the consultation process required by the memorandum, when a tool is being considered for use by the bank, the Government is subsequently advised of a range of effects of loan-to-value ratio restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b9ccfb827545e092fc818d616dd92e\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Reserve Bank said last week that if it were to implement exemptions for new builds to loan-to-value ratio limits, it could turn to the memorandum of understanding that it has with the Government, why did he not ask the Reserve Bank or Treasury to conduct analysis on the effect of loan-to-value ratios on young first-home buyers or the regions before negotiating and signing off the memorandum of understanding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adc5c4afc56d4328a236cd51db7f5d36\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Because that was not the purpose of the memorandum. The purpose of it was to do what the Opposition, I think, was actually arguing for a couple of years ago, and that was to provide a framework for the use of macro-prudential tools. The member still misrepresents or misunderstands the role of the Reserve Bank. Regardless of what advice we took\u2014and we did take advice\u2014on the impact of loan-to-value ratio restrictions, the decision maker is the Governor of the Reserve Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1a190431e140b2abe52dac95b314c4\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the fact that the Reserve Bank Governor is now suggesting that new builds might be exempted from loan-to-value ratios shows that the loan-to-value ratio policy was rushed out untested because his Government had done nothing on housing in 5 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e7e2f484b3442f68f9b0bd313e1e66c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, and, again, the question shows that the member is not really watching his portfolio area. The Government initiated the first Productivity Commission Inquiry into Housing Affordability, which produced advice that we should concentrate on getting a faster supply of more houses on the ground more quickly. I would note that in recent reports from Australia, which is a country that has a capital gains tax, no loan-to-value ratio restrictions, and a restriction on foreign buyers, it now has record low participation by first-home buyers in its market, as reported in the last couple of days. That tells us that first-home buyers in Australia and New Zealand both face the same challenge, and that is that the houses are just too expensive relative to their incomes, and it tells us that we need to free up the supply of housing to get those ratios down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bdaa6a631534861bd0c32f5acb8971c\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Does it not speak volumes that his Government\u2019s 5 years of inaction in housing has brought about loan-to-value ratio restrictions, a policy that disproportionately impacts on first-home buyers, the young, and the regions, while he opposes a capital gains tax that disproportionately affects rich multimillion-dollar property speculators?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7d63d32cc254bb4a052bfe790a31791\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Government is actually very proud of the action it has taken on housing because of the contrast to the housing market it inherited, where first-home mortgage rates were 10 percent\u2014they are currently just over 5 percent\u2014where house prices had doubled, and where we had become one of the least affordable housing markets in the developed world. That is what happened under Labour. We are very pleased to have the opportunity to fix those problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228dfb200a5ec43ffb3c3fd56603d2fac\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: What steps has the Government taken to support first-home buyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ddbb9f0ef254e118b90185def32a639\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has moved to ensure that, within the restrictions the Reserve Bank put in place, first-home buyers will get more choices. The Government has increased the number of Welcome Home Loans, which means an additional 1,600 first-home buyers will get priority from banks. The Government changed the criteria for accessing the subsidy from KiwiSaver, which means that first-home buyers have the opportunity to pull together a bigger deposit. In the longer term we have moved to cut red tape through the Resource Management Act and local government reforms, and we have moved to lower the costs of construction, increase land availability, and sign up accords, particularly with the council of our largest market, Auckland, which has agreed with the Government that we should aim for 39,000 new houses in the market over the next 3 years. Just a few weeks ago the Minister of Housing announced the first batch of special housing areas, bringing 6,000 new homes to the Auckland market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae7a215fb8ec499da848342d1bee853f\u0022\u003EOil and Gas Exploration\u2014Risks and Protest Activity \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00225a28538cfaf347ea9bac1dae0021053d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a28538cfaf347ea9bac1dae0021053d\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Does he stand by the Prime Minister\u2019s statement that, \u201Cthe reality is that there\u2019s been 50,000 wells drilled in the Gulf of Mexico since the 1960s and they\u2019ve had a problem with one of them.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0b4bfb625734afab33204fdb8b79efc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0b4bfb625734afab33204fdb8b79efc\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Energy and Resources: In the context in which it was said, which was in response to Greenpeace\u2019s report last month on worst-case oil spill scenarios, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a02bd0b2c92422e87fab969356768f2\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister now aware that there have been 74 spills from deep-sea wells in the Gulf of Mexico, releasing greater than seven tonnes of oil\u2014that is, one in every 30 deep-sea wells\u2014and would he call that a problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c654ab47688344fba35445ee718f3d2f\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not in a position to confirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b7b5c7d6434af0b439505aa26d35a2\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister going to adopt the Vladimir Putin approach and arrest the New Zealanders in the oil-free seas flotilla, who are standing up for a clean, green environment safe from the risk of those one in 30 deep-sea wells spilling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c7f2d832c284890a3e49dfc447f3e0b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No. It was an interesting analogy that the member decided to use. I would simply like to note, then, that that flotilla is out there powered by dirty diesel-guzzling engines. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187c53cb6e3d40779ebb660c07fc14d1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! A supplementary question has been called. Gareth Hughes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc5fedb7419d45f4899214a0b6ee4fcf\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister will find that they are yachts. My question to the Minister: as of\u2014[Interruption] Can I continue my question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f01d4d9b7094377a201cd0b1d07015b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member does not help himself when I call the House to order, I give him a chance to ask a supplementary question, and he makes an interjection. I will now ask the member to ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073a2d70a03047f0b4a07493b778246b\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. As of now, have any enforcement agency personnel, such as the navy or police, been sent to the vicinity of Anadarko\u2019s drill ship to enforce the exclusion zone enacted by the Minister of Energy and Resources?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e78693a45204e75a746e6441f62a27b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am unable to answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4efb5f670e45c7b1551ea010f49f54\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister limit the civil liberties of New Zealanders in order to protect the interests of Anadarko, which is partially responsible for the worst oil disaster in the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931a520749bc42e999d19b061f4ebdab\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, that question is loaded with speculation at its end. Secondly, what I would say is that the enforcement arrangements are about the protection of New Zealanders\u2019 rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fa53911c0254bccb57d996106d6cf8c\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Waiting Lists for Elective Surgery\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002281fc52e4628f4ec0a50272d508af5214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281fc52e4628f4ec0a50272d508af5214\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How many patients in the year to June 2013, who have been assessed as needing an operation, but are unable to receive it within 5 months, have been told they will not be receiving an operation at this time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002246321e7e67684b808d840fdab977eb83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246321e7e67684b808d840fdab977eb83\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As the member will know from her time, I am unable to provide this information as it has never been collected nationally by the Ministry of Health, and the vast majority of district health boards advise that they do not collect this data or that there were no such patients. What I can advise the member is that the number of patients who have been told they will receive elective surgery and have received it has increased by 40,000 more patients this last year compared with 5 years ago. This increase in procedures means district health boards have been able to reduce the number of patients waiting at June 2013 from 7,000 in June 2005 under that member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d19ceae33af24d86a673882e3ed17916\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We all know what the question was. The Minister said he could not answer it, said he did not have the information, and then proceeded to answer some question that was never asked in the first place. He should have been stopped in his tracks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d99d8ca8f930434b943e1b6e0a7dea01\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think on this occasion the member has got a fair point. The answer was certainly lengthy enough. I invite the Hon Annette King to ask a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc97b6ffdbb34b468d57cfb65a360014\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: If, as he claimed last week, and again today, the ministry is not counting the number of people rejected from waiting lists because they cannot get their operation within 6 months, and if, as he said last week, it is \u201Cincredibly difficult to measure\u201D, how does he know that only 11 people are waiting longer than 6 months for their operation as of June 2013, which he has claimed for months now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3fd129a4f874e689ceecadbb45aaffd\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite simple, because, although the member is trying to deliberately confuse the people of New Zealand, there are two separate figures. One is how many people were on the waiting list at a certain date. She keeps referring to people who did not even get on the waiting list\u2014two separate figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9418b1df2b4f69bcf76e35eda973bc\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in light of that answer, who should the public believe about the number of people being dumped off waiting lists: the specialists, who deal daily with people who are in pain, and who claim that his claims are nothing more than double-speak, bearing no resemblance to reality, or the chief executive officer of Hawke\u2019s Bay District Health Board, Kevin Snee, who says that district health boards are dealing with \u201Ca shortage of cash for orthopaedic operations\u201D and \u201Care struggling to meet demand\u201D, or the Minister, who says \u201CI [won\u2019t] stand any criticism\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022454aa075421444dfb2fd547a4186cb83\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the one person they should not believe is the person who was in a Government that cut 30,000 people off hospital waiting lists, and is in a party that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c170985ee64ceea96310293878e69e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is a relatively political answer, but it does not actually address the question that was asked. I can have it repeated if the Minister likes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291926894cbf4da7951790fc489dc20d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: They can certainly believe the answers that are provided by me and the Ministry of Health. More people are getting operations, and they are getting them faster. We are not culling 30,000 people off hospital waiting lists like that member opposite did when she was in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e8cbf4336dd4ae9ae839b0167d14017\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen about waiting times for patients, in particular in the MidCentral District Health Board and the Waikato District Health Board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a25b9ecfb9f94145b2fb540366fa860f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I saw a report last week from the Opposition health spokesperson, where she stood in this Parliament and claimed that there were 376 patients waiting longer than 6 months at Waikato and 161 patients waiting at MidCentral. Those numbers were a complete misrepresentation of the facts, as none of those people were on a waiting list, despite what Mrs King claimed. Of course, this follows up on a document sent to the Timaru Herald, where the numbers had been inexplicably changed in handwriting. Mrs King has yet to explain why she did this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf8ef23d0de48e7ad04866a951798c3\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Are the views of clinicians still important to him, as he used to claim; if so, will he listen to Mr Bruce Hodgson, an orthopaedic surgeon who recently wrote to a general practitioner saying that the waiting list system is being run in a clearly manipulated process and that \u201Che can\u2019t see patients now because there are too many waiting to carry out their surgery within 5 months.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226498378fdcf1431cbf75d775ee65bb4f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen that report at all. Based on that member\u2019s previous behaviour in this House, I would have to actually check the context and the letter. But what I can say on the matter of orthopaedic surgery is that more New Zealanders are getting orthopaedic surgery and they are getting it faster than ever before. A record 23,000 patients received orthopaedic surgery last year. Canterbury District Health Board does have capacity to do more, but, unlike the previous Government, we will not be cutting 1,000 orthopaedic patients from the Canterbury waiting list, like that Government did in 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af783e34dc924fab80ece2397335bea7\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Has he read the editorial in the Southland Times today, which says that there is no excuse for the Government keeping \u201Ctruly crappy records of the level of unmet need.\u201D in elective surgery, and that it is not \u201Cmorally defensible \u2026 to trivialise the suffering of \u2026 New Zealanders\u201D, as he did last week, or is this another case of him not standing criticism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c06ce5806dd3445ab9800043bbb452db\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have read that editorial from a small provincial newspaper, but I have also read the editorial in the Christchurch Press, which, when referring to the Government\u2019s performance\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d96bff5c7fb6477192aa3660362abeca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am having trouble hearing the answer because of the noise. Can the Minister please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102fef515b914cfbbc12f34f0132efc1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have also read the editorial in a very substantial provincial newspaper, the Christchurch Press, which, when referring to the massive increase in elective surgery under our Government, says: \u201CThose are impressive figures and it would be mean-spirited to downplay them.\u201D What a jolly good editorial that paragraph was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022820aed8ccfe14bd3bf5f04eae6cbd2da\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter from Bruce Hodgson, orthopaedic surgeon, to a general practitioner, which says exactly what I said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c397ba139e1f4601a95c03df7e0c33e7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Leave is sought to table that particular letter from an orthopaedic surgeon. Is there any objection to that course of action? It will be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221e168270965403b8cff0b8b97f380c7\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table 16 letters from 16 district health boards, which all send these letters out to patients saying that their surgeon recommends them for surgery but it cannot be offered to them at this time, making up the waiting list\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022757f714d037b4d02a8676501fc57a4e0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is enough of a description. Leave is sought to table 16 letters from district health boards sent to patients. Is there any objection? There is none. They can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022628c20641fe647168cb595e41a0b5b79\u0022\u003EFreshwater Management\u2014Protection and Water Quality of Rivers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022563bcd2b480f4a0296180f0717883edf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022563bcd2b480f4a0296180f0717883edf\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: What recent announcements has she made to protect wild and scenic New Zealand rivers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022181ba6bf27b34d0689547d84d6829c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022181ba6bf27b34d0689547d84d6829c28\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I have recently announced my decision to gazette amendments to the Kawerau River water conservation order to prevent damming on the Nevis River in Otago. A dam or diversion on the lower Nevis River would have major negative effects on its wild and scenic qualities, fishing, and kayaking. The amendments also add further tributaries to the order and recognise further characteristics for protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f07864666d904fd2874de64920bd4038\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she determine that the Nevis River required this level of protection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220683ff3d230d4382a5693f77cac05b0b\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: In weighing up whether to amend the water conservation order to add outstanding characteristics and prevent damming on the Nevis River, I decided that the benefits of protecting the unique native fish species\u2014the Nevis galaxias\u2014the trout fisheries, and the wild and scenic characteristics of the river in this case outweigh the benefits of preserving the option of a dam on this river. I was guided by the findings of the special tribunal and the Environment Court, and I am of the opinion that the environmental and recreational benefits of banning future damming are more compelling in this case and of greater national benefit than any electricity generation potential on this particular water body.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c662d234436c409597521eefeaabab32\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that if the philosophy of wairua\u2014that the blood and bones and, therefore, the spirit of our ancestors flow through our scenic rivers\u2014was adopted, then there would be a much greater public commitment to protecting our scenic and wild rivers and that removing pollution would be a priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ea529f71e243619a98a2de79ceeb5f\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly share the member\u2019s view that most New Zealanders want to see the quality of our freshwater waterways protected and I can assure the member that that is why this Government has made such a substantial commitment over our 5 years to protecting our freshwater waterways through much better frameworks for managing them, from the creation of the Land and Water Forum, the institution of the first national policy statement, and just last week the announcement of the national objectives framework. This is an ongoing piece of work, but I certainly do share his concern for protecting our wild rivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265220d1504d5490082c61f5966405b4b\u0022\u003EBrendan Horan\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the extremely polluted state of some New Zealand rivers including, for example, the Kaituna River, particularly between Paengaroa and the Maket\u016B River mouth, and is she prepared to apply science and technology to resolve those issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a334f2bfdb35479d9f4727d73fabb5b7\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: As I mentioned in the answer to the member\u2019s first supplementary question, I am certainly aware that there are a number of rivers and water bodies around the country that are of real concern to their communities. I have seen some information specifically in relation to the Kaituna River, which the member refers to. What I would say to the member is that in each of those localised situations the primary response is driven by the regional council, but we are very happy to assist the regional council. I do think that the work we are developing through the Land and Water Forum and the national objectives framework will certainly help to inform that debate, and the Government is absolutely committed to assisting communities in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229127fcade9f74b7cb0a69f1772e248a1\u0022\u003EOil and Gas Exploration\u2014Regulation and Public Notification of Deep-sea Drilling\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022f30299ab636d4f63b2c3c6403e58f3e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f30299ab636d4f63b2c3c6403e58f3e2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does she stand by all her statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00226cdfc026b5914574891d1a85f74b7ae3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cdfc026b5914574891d1a85f74b7ae3\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in full, and in the context in which they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241b2ea41f9f64966b6c8148d4a09e0ca\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statements in relation to her proposal to make exploratory drilling for oil and gas a non-notified process: \u201CI consider that this classification is appropriate because exploratory drilling takes place over a short space of time,\u201D and \u201Cexploratory drilling for oil and gas generally takes place over a period of about 4 to 6 weeks, so a simplified process that retains full regulatory discretion appears to be an appropriate response.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b071ff14b1f42d5a106aea9860a82c5\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I have not got the text but that sounds right, and I do stand by the fact that that represents the advice that I have received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c5ffb29c96743fc9cef0e36bda17f3f\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: If an exploratory well is successful, will any appraisal wells, which are wells drilled to establish the limits, productivity, and properties of the reservoir, have to go through a separate consenting process; if not, what does this do to her claimed time frame for drilling activity of 4 to 6 weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4d939116873409897a89dcc02c99c94\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the issues that we are looking at in relation to the classification of exploratory wells\u2014and I can remind the member in this House that no decisions have been made as to how they will be classified as yet\u2014as part of that process we are absolutely looking at exactly what is encapsulated in the definition of exploratory well drilling. But I would point out to the member and to this House that until the passage of the exclusive economic zone regulations there was absolutely no oversight of these, and this is a massive step forward in the protection of our oceans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0cb1c6e86fe45768fee7bc44534998f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise the House what consents were required when deep-sea drilling was done last decade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f31ec9d7ee864c3b89672517f8b75127\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I can. The Minister of Energy and Resources granted a permit, and that was it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9269a3a7ec34652ade5f6c68fa0da31\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she gone out of her way to point out that exploratory drilling takes only 4 to 6 weeks as justification for removing the public\u2019s right to have their say, when she knows full well that this time frame is accurate only if the well is unsuccessful, and that if successful the actual drilling period will take far longer than she has been letting on publicly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb07dad87da4c3b9072840042cb9765\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, I can confirm that the advice I have received consistently is that the average period of time for such drilling activities is 4 to 6 weeks, as I have indicated to the House. Secondly, it is impossible to remove a public right involvement that never existed. Under the Labour Government the public had zero input into these decisions. Under this process there will now be a very clearly defined process, and no well will be able to move to production without every New Zealander having a chance to have a say in its drilling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225720752eec6b49e4886542b646a0479b\u0022\u003EAnzac Day Centenary\u2014Commemorations at Gallipoli\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba1000c079e24c1aa42804c1be7638fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba1000c079e24c1aa42804c1be7638fa\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs: What progress has been made in planning for Anzac Day at Gallipoli in 2015?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaec76019f4649f3a27e01b80547f829\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaec76019f4649f3a27e01b80547f829\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The public ballot to attend the 100th anniversary of Anzac Day at Gallipoli in 2015 opened last Friday and has seen significant interest already. The 1915 campaign is important to our history and helped to shape our nation\u2019s identity, so we expected demand to exceed the safe capacity of 10,500 people, which is why the ballot process was established. New Zealand was granted 2,000 places, and I encourage all those hoping to attend Anzac Day services at Gallipoli to enter the ballot, as that is the only way they will be admitted to the peninsula.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cce510447094cc3ae1863579589d8bf\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Has he had any updates on the ballot so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226594de878b9429eb1718434f4a9332e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. There has been strong interest in the ballot since it opened, and more than 2,700 people have now registered for the New Zealand ballot in just the first 4 days. But it is worth remembering that there is not an advantage to early registration. The ballot is open for another 10 weeks, so there is plenty of time for anyone who is interested to enter before the ballot closes on 31 January 2014. The 100th anniversary of Anzac Day in Turkey will certainly be an important event, and anyone interested in intending to enter the ballot can visit the Gallipoli 2015 website for details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002280ec102ec7134ae08173f0af37067ce8\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002293f84e8ba10244a5a93a2603effe2a9f\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Air New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe3b85a9a3874c33919bed8348116966\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe3b85a9a3874c33919bed8348116966\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from the Hon David Cunliffe seeking to debate under Standing Order 386 the decision by the Minister of Finance and the Minister for State Owned Enterprises to commence the process to sell 20 percent of the Government\u2019s Air New Zealand shares. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe test for whether a particular case requires the attention of the House is a high one. The decision to sell Air New Zealand shares follows the passing of the Public Finance (Mixed Ownership Model) Amendment Act in June last year, when there was significant debate on this issue. Every subsequent decision made under the Act will not be of sufficient importance to justify setting aside the business of the House. I am not persuaded that the matter deserves the immediate attention of the House by way of an urgent debate. There will be other occasions on which it can be debated. The application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fe805947f7849e3a5e6c771dc2ddc15\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab478c618d2e45f4b46cd041d3d858e5\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7dfc1b24f694696856555835850b651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7dfc1b24f694696856555835850b651\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the Committee stage and third reading of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and the Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill; the second reading and remaining stages of the Game Animal Council Bill and the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori ) Amendment Bill; the Committee stage and third reading of the Building Amendment Bill (No 4), the Financial Reporting Bill, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill, the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill, the Statutes Amendment Bill, the Unit Titles Amendment Bill, and the Medicines Amendment Bill, and any bills into which they may be divided; and the first reading and referral to select committees of the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), the Parole Amendment Bill, and the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill. This is another important tranche of legislation that the Government wishes to see progressed before the end of the year. You will be aware that the legislative time available to the House is running very short. There will be those who say, once again, that the use of urgency should be a little more measured. I would ask them to perhaps turn their argument to the amount of time that the House actually makes available for legislation in any given week. All of these bills are bills that have a degree of importance. A large number of them are supported across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43efdbee63542f496496623f6fd2999\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Not all, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d90ba69f2a4365a13f006518ff8151\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I said a large number, Mr Robertson. I certainly would not claim unanimity, but a considerable number of bills are supported. There will be time for those bills that are more contentious to be fully discussed. It is my intention that the Government will seek leave for question time on Wednesday and Thursday, notwithstanding the fact that we are in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002258c56fe218b54c21b15e9e043ff155b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022388d88f667a3430796916537c534160c\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220716f4749af1458db4d866f1270cb764\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224a68fb61e595494da82fb8636917f492\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a68fb61e595494da82fb8636917f492\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for there to be a question time on Wednesday and Thursday, notwithstanding that the rules of urgency mean that we are in Tuesday for the balance of the week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a72dc39b8c704ec3a5d925a2cd712671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a72dc39b8c704ec3a5d925a2cd712671\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It will be so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224a7b6887a47d4a998bcba80c97a09631\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a7b6887a47d4a998bcba80c97a09631\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I further seek leave for Wednesday, 4 December to be a members\u2019 day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00222d428036a7344f51b8d399b11bbb8699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d428036a7344f51b8d399b11bbb8699\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. Leave is so granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242d2216c06e540a09f1175b5883c59c8\u0022\u003ESocial Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c979ce7cb084802b76c11fe8ca99118\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000231\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 12 November.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b00b50f42d84f83a3341b795f7c60f7\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act with effect from day after Royal assent (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0dc8d6ec3914e989be6b91cb4e80e64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0dc8d6ec3914e989be6b91cb4e80e64\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted in the earlier debate on this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, I want to focus my comments on new section 57AA, inserted by clause 12, which confers on Housing New Zealand the power to impose what the Minister of Housing describes as \u201Creviewable tenancies\u201D. I prefer to think of it as extending insecurity of tenure to all Housing New Zealand tenants. That provision, although it is also included in Part 2 of the bill, is dealt with in Part 1 and gives Housing New Zealand the power to extend insecurity of tenure to all of its tenants from the day after the bill receives the Royal assent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis provision is at the heart of Labour\u2019s opposition to this bill. I want to refer to a number of what we believe will be harmful consequences of this policy, which is one of the main provisions in this bill\u2014to extend reviewable tenancies to all Housing New Zealand tenants. I want to point the Committee to the Social Housing Outcomes Worth Study, which looked at the relationship between housing conditions and hospitalisation rates in a very large cohort of Housing New Zealand tenants. What the study found was that secure housing was extremely important to the people who live in State houses, and that, in fact, as a result of the security of tenure they had as a result of being Housing New Zealand tenants, they had markedly lower hospitalisation rates for most health conditions, including mental health, than people who were on the State housing list. This was the basis of the submission that He Kainga Oranga, the University of Otago\u2019s Housing and Heath Research Programme, made to the Social Services Committee\u2014that by extending insecurity of tenure to all State house tenants, you would in fact be severely undermining the health status of those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI also want to refer to the study by Regional Public Health about the movement of people out of the P\u014Dmare Housing New Zealand community, a development project that was grossly mishandled under this Government by Housing New Zealand. I noticed that the Minister of Housing turned up with the cameras the other day\u2014as he does about every 2 days at the moment\u2014to film him turning the first sod of the new mixed development at P\u014Dmare. Well, Regional Public Health found that the involuntary eviction of Housing New Zealand tenants out of that community had many negative health and social impacts on those people. It found that social ties are, in many cases, geographic, and that forcing people out of their homes threatens the emotional support provided by neighbours. It also affects access to health care. The study found that supportive, stable communities help mitigate socio-economic disadvantage by providing all kinds of resources that people get from being part of a stable community; and that forced housing relocation often involves moving kids out of schools, and that has a negative effect on children\u2019s educational achievement. That is housing insecurity of the very kind that National is proposing to impose on all 69,000 State house tenants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002262c209accd994242bbe28df8e611edc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262c209accd994242bbe28df8e611edc4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I firstly want to say that the comments of the member Phil Twyford about P\u014Dmare really do highlight the contrast between the Government\u2019s view of social housing and the Labour Opposition\u2019s, because if P\u014Dmare is the flagship for State housing in Labour\u2019s mode, Labour is very much in the past. That is a community renowned for gang violence, renowned for murders, and renowned for bad social and educational achievement, and what Labour wants to do is to lock in that failed State housing model. I say shame on those members. If P\u014Dmare is what Labour stands for, thank goodness Labour is not the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe key issue at stake in this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, and where there is a difference between the Government and Labour members, is the issue of reviewable tenancies. At heart is a position by the Government that says that social housing is for the period of need, as compared with an Opposition that says that social housing is for life. The challenge I have got for Labour members is the fact that after 9 years of the best economic times in a century, there were 4,000 people sitting on Housing New Zealand waiting lists. The idea that you can build your way out of the demands for social housing is flawed, because although Labour will champion the cause of the existing tenants of State houses, we need to balance that with the needs, the high needs, of those 4,000-odd people sitting on waiting lists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo the real question for this Committee and this bill is this: do those 4,000 people on waiting lists have a greater right to the Government\u2019s investment in social housing than those existing tenants, 5,000 of whom are on a market rent\u20145,000 of whom are on a market rent? What Labour members are saying is that those who are earning sufficient to not be eligible for an income-related rent have got a greater right to a house than those families who are overcrowded, those families in high need. The idealists on Labour\u2019s benches say: \u201CDon\u2019t worry. You can just build a whole lot more houses.\u201D I say to them that they had 9 years to make that work and they did not, and that is why the Government needs to focus its social housing on those families with the greatest need. I stress to the House that 5,000 State house tenants on market rents and the Government saying in its Budget that we are going to have 1,000 in the first year and 2,000 in the second year really show how moderate and sensible this policy is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI challenge the next Labour speaker to get to their feet and say that the Labour Party stands for a State house for life and for that house being occupied by people on high incomes. I have got a guy in my constituency who is the captain of a fishing vessel. He earns over $100,000 a year. He occupies a State house. Members opposite say he has got a right to stay in that State house as long as he wants to while we have got other families on the waiting list who are in far higher need. I say those members are wrong. I am proud of the changes that are made in this bill. If we are serious about addressing the social issues in New Zealand and the health issues associated with poor housing, then we need to make sure that our investment of $16 billion in State housing is used by those with the highest need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022790a8d4577e94f6cbc9f49279f772685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022790a8d4577e94f6cbc9f49279f772685\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E If it is not enough that the respected public health academics at Otago University condemn this policy in the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill and say that there is a public health risk by Nick Smith\u2019s announcing with fanfare that he wants to see 3,000 State house tenants kicked out of their homes as a matter of Government policy, and if it is not enough to consider the public health risk, then let the Minister of Housing consider the words of the Productivity Commission, which is his intellectual mentor. Its report on housing affordability is his intellectual bible, and he quotes it at every turn. Well, let me quote the Productivity Commission, because it seems to be the only legitimate source of advice for the Minister. The Productivity Commission, in its report on affordable housing, I say to Dr Smith, advises against reviewable tenancies. It does not believe that it is good policy, and it believes that the approach of reviewable tenancies is not in harmony with the desire of communities for stability and continuity. It does not think that it is a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI also point the Minister to the report that he claims to be the sort of genesis, the inspiration, of his social housing policy. I am talking about the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227db7403806349e5b196a10e8c0e2293\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Advisory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d755d04ac2f84e1b882d50db44963c77\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes, the Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group and its report Home and Housed: A Vision for Social Housing in New Zealand. That report explicitly recommends against reviewable tenancies. It says: \u201CNo existing tenant should have his or her lease simply terminated \u2026 While it would, in theory, be possible for [the Housing New Zealand Corporation] to reassess all sitting tenants at the time of their annual rent review and give tenants adequate notice, we do not support this option.\u201D So the two most credible intellectual sources of policy makers, which the Minister says have inspired his policy on Housing New Zealand, explicitly counsel against reviewable tenancies. No? The Minister is shaking his head. He is right; apparently, everybody else is wrong. Only the National Government would announce in its Budget that its housing policy had a target of evicting 3,000 people from State houses. That says it all. This is the party that in the 1990s sold off 13,000 State houses. It brought in market rentals, which caused thousands and thousands of New Zealanders to crash into extreme poverty\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239403765bae47febdbec473e6f7c866\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: No maintenance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226aa0b94b301480c9d7dcf2c7c049917\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it did no maintenance on State house properties. This Minister has a different approach. He has dressed it up as if he is benevolently giving out resources to the community housing sector, that he has some kind of progressive vision, but in fact what we see from this Government is that he is running down Housing New Zealand. We saw it in the Salvation Army report that came out last Thursday that when this Government came to office, it hiked the dividends that it demands from Housing New Zealand and it drastically cut the annual capital contributions that the Crown makes. During the duration of the last Labour Government\u2019s stewardship of Housing New Zealand it gave a net financial contribution to Housing New Zealand of close to half a billion dollars. Well, in the first 3 years of this National Government being in office it withdrew a net amount of $142 million. That Minister and his predecessor used Housing New Zealand as a cash cow to fund National\u2019s tax cuts for the rich. That is exactly what happened. The Government squeezed it, just like it did to every other State-owned enterprise, and that is a disgrace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIn the middle of the worst housing crisis in a generation, with 4,000 people languishing on waiting lists, and Government agencies routinely referring people to live in campgrounds, this Minister uses Housing New Zealand, a social housing agency mandated with putting a decent roof over the heads of the poorest and most vulnerable New Zealanders, as a cash cow to fund National\u2019s tax cuts. Well, that is an absolute disgrace. He cannot dress up this bill and this policy as if they were some great benevolent thing to the community housing sector. The Government is running down Housing New Zealand. This bill takes away the core powers of Housing New Zealand and it sets out to distribute the housing stock to the charity and NGO sector. This is the end of Housing New Zealand as we know it. This Minister will be responsible for stripping Housing New Zealand of its powers and its housing stock. It is just the latest reincarnation of National\u2019s hostility to State housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00228c0d53af995b436ab7413e4281774442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c0d53af995b436ab7413e4281774442\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I was in my office as this debate on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill began and I heard Nick Smith, the Minister of Housing, speaking about the community of P\u014Dmare. I noticed that Nick Smith was quite happy to come to turn the sod at P\u014Dmare earlier this week, when there are new houses to be built, but he was nowhere to be seen, nor was his predecessor Phil Heatley, when all of the tenants who used to live there were being evicted and their homes were being demolished. They were completely invisible. I say to Nick Smith that, yes, that was a community that had a few problems. Those problems have not gone away by driving all of those people out and demolishing the homes that they live in. They have simply been relocated somewhere else. Actually, if this Government was genuinely concerned about addressing the problems that communities like P\u014Dmare faced, then it would be concerned about the issues around equality and the massively growing level of inequality that we are seeing in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe approach in P\u014Dmare is absolutely disgraceful. What the Government did was that it said: \u201CThis is a community with problems.\u201D It evicted all the tenants and it demolished all the houses. Over 100 houses are already demolished and more are on the chopping block, more still to go. And what is the solution now? It is going to build new houses there and about 80 percent of those will be privately owned homes\u2014privately owned homes. So, basically, if we are lucky, out of the 100 or more houses to be demolished, there might be 20 new Housing New Zealand houses. Overall, there was one comment that Nick Smith made at the sod turning on Monday that I did agree with, where he said that if we are building new housing developments, it is desirable to have a mixture of private housing and State housing. But in this case, as with every other case, we are losing more State houses than we are gaining. So, overall, the total number of State houses is being reduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIf Nick Smith was saying: \u201CWe are going to build 20 new houses a year and then we are going to have 80 private new developments or other forms of development, but then we are going to build 80 more elsewhere to replace the other 80 that we demolished.\u201D, I would actually be OK with that. But that is not what the Government is saying. The Government is busily demolishing State houses\u2014and I notice that the Minister of Housing snuck into Trentham the other day unannounced, because, no doubt, that is the next area where we are going to see dozens of State houses demolished and replaced with private homes. Well, again, that community was driven out\u2014driven out under the pretence in this case of earthquake damage or potential earthquake damage to the buildings. I am going to be very interested to see what happens when they tie a whole lot of trucks around them and try to pull them to pieces, because those buildings still seem to be standing. Having said all of that, of course we want those buildings to be earthquake-proofed, and so on. But driving people out of their homes and leaving those homes empty and boarded up for over a year, as they have been now, is not dealing with the issue. So why is this relevant to this debate? Because the Government is introducing reviewable tenancies in line with its overall goal to reduce the number of New Zealanders who are living in State houses. That is its goal. It is going into this saying that at least 3,000 New Zealanders will basically be thrown out of their homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe have to go back and look at the history of State housing in New Zealand to understand how we have got to where we are today. Once upon a time everyone lived in a State house\u2014or a whole chunk of the country lived in a State house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288294b8dc3f6483993976f38143bec51\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a024034f3a4385b983239e76974029\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, middle-class families previously lived in State housing, and in the postwar period there were significant numbers of people who ended up moving into public or State housing. Our societal expectations around who can live in State houses have certainly changed. Some of those people have lived in those State houses for all of their adult lives, and Nick Smith and this Government are basically saying they do not care about that. They are happy just to throw those people out and force them to go and find new places to live. I do not think that is right. I do not think that is fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI also think that the Government has failed to consider the significant impact on tenants when they are required to move. Consider a family with children. Those children might be attending the local school and might find that the next place that they get is not in the same neighbourhood. That is a massive upheaval for that family. Those kids are going to have to leave their local school and with all of the upheaval that that involves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ad064a91c194c029acc56a6a1e9a998\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: And the costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2f83ff5c1c04617a9e9d9a5a2486c13\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: And there are the costs, of course. There may be new school uniforms\u2014all of those things. And Nick Smith says: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it. Not the Government\u2019s problem.\u201D I think that that is the Government\u2019s problem, because I think that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EConsider the fate of P\u014Dmare School. P\u014Dmare School 4 or 5 years ago, before National came into Government, had several hundred pupils. Nick Smith, Phil Heatley, and the National Government came in and demolished all of those houses, and P\u014Dmare School now has fewer than 100 kids enrolled for next year. Of course, there are over 100 new houses being built there, so that school will eventually have a roll that will go up again. What does the school do in the meantime? It went to the Government and said: \u201CWe\u2019ve got this transitional problem.\u201D and the Government did nothing. The Government said: \u201CWe don\u2019t care. We\u2019re not interested. We don\u2019t want to know.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1a1ec5681f44c26a820e8400ecf1b8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1a1ec5681f44c26a820e8400ecf1b8b\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am surprised at getting the call\u2014thank you, Mr Chair. I am pleased to take a call on this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. We are debating, I believe, Parts 1 through 6. But in debating these parts of the bill, I think it is really important that we keep the context of the number of houses that we are presently talking about. Currently, in terms of our housing stock, social housing\u2014State housing\u2014makes up 5 percent of the available stock out there in New Zealand. We are not talking about a large number of houses. It is very clear that the need and the demand are much higher. But this bill certainly gives the sense that we are shuffling around the deckchairs of the Titanic, and there are not enough to go around for everyone. Instead of saying \u201CSomeone get more chairs.\u201D, we are simply setting a whole lot of additional strict criteria to determine who gets to sit down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI am going to end that analogy there and go on to Part 1 of the bill, which sets out in quite a bit of detail the ability of Housing New Zealand to review tenancy at any point. It also puts in a large range of circumstances under which Housing New Zealand can simply review at any point someone\u2019s eligibility to remain in their home. I start with new section 56, inserted by clause 11, which sets out a tenant\u2019s duty to advise changes of circumstances. New section 56(1) states: \u201CEvery person to whom any HNZ housing is let at an income-related rent must promptly advise HNZ of\u2014(a) any change in the person\u2019s circumstances likely to result in the payment of a higher income-related rent;\u201D. I really want to just question via the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Housing\u2014if you are anticipating whether or not something is likely to impact on your income, then that is a really precarious test to apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think here of what has happened for the welfare State, in particular. That is probably the most comparable area where, for instance, those who are in receipt of State benefits are required to phone in their hours worked as they anticipate them to be to Work and Income on a weekly basis. Sometimes that is out of alignment with what an employer assesses via their payslip and via what they respond to the Inland Revenue Department as having been their hours worked. A lot of people living in State houses will be in precarious work. They will be working hours that fluctuate. They might be working shifts or be in seasonal work, so anticipating whether or not they are likely to be dropping in and out of Housing New Zealand\u2019s requirement around their income test is quite a difficult test. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI would also like to hear from the Minister whether there is data matching going on with Housing New Zealand, as is the case now with Work and Income. Suddenly Work and Income, once it starts trying to bring these two pieces of information together, says \u201CAh ha! Masses of people are trying to defraud the system.\u201D Not the case. In fact, what we have is simply a range of overpayment and underpayment based on people reporting the hours they believed they have worked, before they have actually received their payslip. Are we going to have a similar situation with people falling inside and outside what is likely to be eligibility, given this frequent testing, and now given these tests that tell a tenant that they must anticipate whether or not they are eligible? Potentially, we may see the same issues as we have seen with Work and Income. I would like to specifically know from the Minister whether the same data-matching exercise with the Inland Revenue Department is going on with Housing New Zealand, as there is with Work and Income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to come then to Part 1, down to clause 12. It sets out the circumstances under which Housing New Zealand may review housing eligibility. The thing that the Minister does not seem to acknowledge here, and he talks generally about the idea that the waiting lists are so high that it is unfair to have anyone\u2014it seems to be anyone paying market rents for State housing that seems to be a problem from the Minister\u2019s perspective. What he fails to acknowledge is that some people who are paying market rents for State houses are simply people who cannot find housing anywhere else. Come to central Auckland, Minister, and I will introduce you to a range of sole parents who cannot rent a house in the private rental market. Demand is extraordinary in some parts of Auckland. They have become desperate enough that they will go to Housing New Zealand even though they do not want to be in front of Housing New Zealand. They know that there is high need, and they do not see themselves as being amongst the category of individuals who would need to call on Housing New Zealand. But what do you do, Minister, if you have a child under the age of 5 and you cannot find a home after 6 months? What do you do? In desperation, many people go to Housing New Zealand. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00222da9b854e5e9445d83df4987992fff85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222da9b854e5e9445d83df4987992fff85\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E The first thing that was extraordinary about that contribution from Jacinda Ardern was that she said that New Zealand needs more housing. Well, I simply ask that member why she opposed at every single step the special housing area in the housing accords legislation, which was supported unanimously by the Auckland Council, for 39,000 more houses in Auckland. She cannot stand up and give speeches saying that we need to increase housing supply when she and her colleagues have done everything possible to oppose increasing housing supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn speaking to this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, I need to expose the contribution of half-truths from Phil Twyford. He said that the report Home and Housed: A Vision For Social Housing in New Zealand opposed reviewable tenancies. That is absolutely untrue. It is true that it said that you should not review everybody\u2019s tenancy every single year. Well, we on this side of the Chamber support that. We say that we should review those tenancies when it is clear that people\u2019s circumstances have changed and when they no longer have the needs that entitled them to social housing. He is being grossly misleading in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut I have got to tell you that the real big daddy of misrepresentation and trying to retell history was when Mr Twyford said that Labour made major investments in the quality of its State housing. I nearly choked on my water when I heard those views. Let me give the member the numbers. When National came into Government in 2008, how many of the 69,000 State houses had been insulated? I know that my colleague Phil Heatley would know. He came in as the Minister of Housing. Those members say that this Government has under-invested in State housing, so let me give the Committee the numbers. Every single State house that can be insulated\u201440,000 of them\u2014will be insulated by the end of next month. What an extraordinary achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet me give you the numbers in another way. This Government, each year, has insulated 10 times as many houses per year as these socialists opposite, who shed crocodile tears about State housing tenants but ignored their needs for more than a decade. Let me give the hard numbers: $2.9 billion is being invested in this year\u2019s Budget in Housing New Zealand\u2014$2.9 billion. Let us look over the 9 years of massive surpluses\u2014the best economic times in half a century. Labour spent less than half that amount\u2014less than half that amount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet us take the other half-truth. The member Phil Twyford says: \u201COh, look at the size of the dividends that the Government has taken from Housing New Zealand.\u201D, but he forgets to mention that, yes, there are two transactions that occur between the Government and Housing New Zealand. There is the amount the Government pays each year to Housing New Zealand for providing housing services, and the amount, the dividend, that comes back. The Government has increased the amount it pays Housing New Zealand by $160 million per year, a record. Let me give you the numbers. In Labour\u2019s last year in Government it was under $500 million per year; this financial year it is $670 million. That is a massive increase in difficult financial times, and it shows the level of commitment that this Government has to social housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to make is in terms of the contribution from Chris Hipkins. He objects to the grotty State houses in P\u014Dmare being demolished so that we can reinvest in new, far better, quality housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e685af2098c418d8f4cd3afb8cbc871\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: No, he didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b47523cf55041b0acf2a23f5de0312a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, let me say to Madam King that if you are going to build new houses, you actually have to demolish the old ones. That is actually a physical reality. I would love the next Labour member to explain how Labour is not going to demolish any houses but is going to do redevelopments in suburbs. Look, the Opposition\u2019s approach to this bill is flaky, it is as shallow as a bird bath, and it actually shows that those members have done no new thinking on how we can better deliver social housing for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002201e43c4c682d4b31b8ad43780a286566\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201e43c4c682d4b31b8ad43780a286566\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say to the Minister of Housing that he is getting rather overexcited. I suggest that maybe he calms done if he is going to take another call, because one thing that Chris Hipkins, the very good member for Rimutaka, did not say was that he wanted to keep crappy houses in P\u014Dmare. He is very aware that there were substandard houses there that need to be replaced, but maybe the Minister does not know that for 5 long years those houses at P\u014Dmare were left neglected, run down, and empty\u2014emptied out by this Government\u2014with nothing happening to them. So maybe the Minister needs to get more up to date on what is actually happening. For example, he said that Labour wanted to keep gang members in P\u014Dmare. Does the Minister know where they have gone now? Has he any idea what has happened to them? Come on, Minister. Where have the gang members gone now? They have been rehoused somewhere else. They do not just disappear in a puff of smoke and no longer exist, Minister. They are rehoused somewhere else. So what a pathetic argument that was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe other thing the Minister said was that you cannot build your way out of a social housing crisis. I know that if the Minister was in his own electorate, he would be visiting the Salvation Army and telling those people what a wonderful job they do, how much he values them, and how much he likes them. Well, if that is the case, Minister\u2014and he is nodding\u2014why does he not agree with the Salvation Army, which said exactly that last week? It said that what you have to do is build your way out of the social housing problem in New Zealand. You are not going to solve the social housing problem in New Zealand by shifting the houses around as to who owns and runs them. You actually need to have more houses in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EEven the Government\u2019s own mates, The New Zealand Initiative\u2014that right-wing thinktank\u2014said that we are 80,000 houses short in New Zealand. And then he mentioned\u2014I am just replying to the Minister himself\u2014the captain of a ship who is in a State house in Nelson. How long has he been there, Minister? How long have you been in Government? Has he been there 5 years? Has this Government moved him on? Is he paying market rent? What responsibility does the Minister take for a captain living in a State house for 5 years? That is the very thing he would have criticised a Labour Government for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI have to tell you that I have now known Nick Smith in a number of portfolios and, unfortunately, like most of his portfolios, he is out of touch. I say bring back Phil Heatley because at least Phil Heatley understood the housing portfolio. You see, Nick Smith was out of touch with the local government portfolio, he was out of touch when he had the ACC portfolio, and now he is out of touch and ignorant when it comes to the housing portfolio. He claims many things that are not true. For example, he claimed that the Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group was in favour of reviewable tenancies. That is totally untrue. This is what the report explicitly recommends. The group recommends against reviewable tenancy for existing tenants. Did you know that, Minister? You said the absolute opposite a minute ago. This is what the report says: \u201CNo existing tenant should have his or her lease simply terminated. Here, we have been guided by the principle of \u2018offer, not push\u2019. While it would, in theory, be possible for [Housing New Zealand] to reassess all sitting tenants at the time of their annual rent review and give tenants adequate notice,\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d18f0f0e1946cc84207b67d90cadcb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8d1a26e7a44c3baf4ba556ce57492e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cwe do not support this option.\u201D The Minister said \u201CThat\u2019s right.\u201D, but he did not wait for me to finish its full statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022300c7531659d4b828679550940d98724\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Half-truths. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242fd4ffd938a4c9dbfd747235c8e6599\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: What did the group say, Minister? Half a truth you gave then. It said: \u201Cwe do not support\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022104196085b884f7f82162620b59eca2a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Full quote. Read the full quote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c33a6bb395941cba52fd4b201390ee9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, full quote. Let me read the full quote: \u201Cwe do not support this option\u201D. Do not tell me to read the full quote, Minister; read it yourself. Read it yourself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EAnd then we have some of the most informed people in New Zealand talking about reviewable tenancies. They made submissions on the bill. Philippa Howden-Chapman\u2014no one could doubt her credibility. She put in a submission, with others, to the bill. She said: \u201CWe do not support the introduction of reviewable tenancies for all state tenants because of: the lack of evidence provided for its efficacy; its cost; the health effects of the lack of security of tenure; the health effects of displacement; and the health effects of moving people from state to private rental housing; and the effect on children\u2019s education.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe3f87260b94488a81ddaab5169a08fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe3f87260b94488a81ddaab5169a08fe\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill is the most objectionable and Draconian bill that this Government has produced in this term, in my view. In Part 1 not only are there very extensive powers of investigation of existing tenants or any prospective tenant to see whether they remain eligible for income-related housing but there are several new clauses that effectively set up Housing New Zealand as New Zealand\u2019s housing police and authorise Housing New Zealand to set aside the Privacy Act. This bill shows, yet again, how the National Government has little regard for privacy, as it did in the much-reviled Government Communications Security Bureau Amendment Act recently pushed through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew section 59, in clause 14, says: \u201CFor the purposes of a review \u2026 HNZ may request any person to\u2014(a) answer questions; or (b) allow HNZ to inspect any document or other written information; or (c) give HNZ\u2014(i) a copy of any document or other written information; or (ii) a printout of any information stored digitally. (2) The person does not have to comply with the request, but (for the purposes of section 7(1) of the Privacy Act 1993) this subsection authorises the person to make personal information available in response to the request.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ESo much, then, for personal privacy in New Zealand, with legislation like that. The provision effectively nullifies the Privacy Act, and it is unnecessary, when Housing New Zealand can satisfy itself in other ways about the eligibility of a person for housing, without compromising the Privacy Act in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EUnder new section 59AA, Housing New Zealand may require information for certain purposes. Housing New Zealand \u201Cmay by written notice require information from any person\u201D concerning housing assessment or reviews. Under new section 59AA(1) this may be for \u201C(f) the purpose of determining and detecting whether a person has committed or is committing an offence \u2026 (g) the purpose of determining and detecting the cost of fraud \u2026 (h) the purpose of ascertaining whether a person has failed or refused to answer fully, or has deliberately given a false or misleading answer to, any question \u2026 \u201D. In requiring such information, Housing New Zealand must do so only in accordance with a code of conduct, but any person \u201Cfrom whom information is required \u2026 must comply with the requirement\u2014(a) no later than 5 working days after the notice \u2026 [and] without charge \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe only exceptions are that the section does not \u201C(a) require any person to provide any information or produce any document that would be privileged in a court of law: [or] (b) require any person to provide any information or produce any document that is legally professionally privileged.\u201D, and it does not apply to financial information such as receipts or financial transactions. But that still leaves a lot of information that any person must provide when required to do so. That information is then used for reviewing the eligibility of tenants, terminating a tenancy, and reallocating or reassigning Housing New Zealand housing to a tenant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe offences are in new section 61AB, under which it is an offence for any person not to provide information required by Housing New Zealand, and there is a fine of up to $2,000 for that. And it is an offence to mislead Housing New Zealand. It is even an offence under new section 61AC for any person to deliberately omit to do or say anything if the purpose is for another person to be eligible or continue to be eligible to be allocated Housing New Zealand housing. For this heinous crime, any person who does so commits an offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or to a fine not exceeding $5,000, or both. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe only redeeming provisions in this Draconian part of the bill are those relating to the code of conduct and the role of the Privacy Commissioner. But, overall, the impression is given that State house tenants under National\u2019s amended legislation will be treated much more like the inmates of the Gulag Archipelago than as tenants needing respect, security, and long-term housing solutions, instead of being constantly subject to reviews and investigations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00221073593946c241d5a0fc11e0c2a9ad60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221073593946c241d5a0fc11e0c2a9ad60\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I too would like to speak to some of the overarching issues that relate to reviewable tenancies and the approach that this Government is taking in relation to State housing. I think the Government has made a major shift away from our common understanding of the purpose of State housing and the role of our Government in providing housing. I would like to remind the Committee that it was a National Government that initially established some of our State housing policy and also opposed the extension of urban limits as an approach to providing more housing. It recognised that as a country we desperately need to have secure, healthy housing for our population, and that when we have that, we all benefit. It recognised that if we put the most vulnerable people out on the fringes, they become more vulnerable because they are reliant on extra transport and that is often not there, and that undermines their ability to participate more widely in the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EBut this Government really has lost its way, and this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, is a very significant demonstration of that. What it does is set up a review of tenure for State housing. The Minister of Housing has talked about examples of very wealthy people in State houses and what a travesty that is\u2014how shocking when we have a limited resource\u2014and how we need to make sure that those people are not taking up that resource. But I would like to remind the Minister that, actually, this bill does a lot more than that. It will review the tenancies of families with children. It will put their tenancies at risk. Though the Government has told us that there is some leniency available in this bill, it is not spelt out that it will protect older New Zealanders in their houses so that they will not be kicked out. They are not protected in this bill. The Government has also told us that it will protect people with disabilities and/or mental health issues, but that is not written in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is set up a process where people will feel insecure, some people will be kicked out of their houses, and families with children will lose security of tenure. The Minister is shaking his head, but that is what is in this bill. That has really significant costs for those families and for all of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI have been a renter for most of my life, and the way the private rental market operates in this country is that there is a lot of churn. While I was renting, I often moved twice a year for reasons such as that the landlord\u2019s situation changed or my situation changed or the rent went up. The cost of that is huge\u2014to get the movers and to put on the power\u2014and that is the cycle we are potentially putting people into. The private rental market is overinflated, and the condition of the housing is worse. So we are putting some of our most vulnerable families into exceptionally vulnerable situations, and we are increasing their costs, which is taking money away from those families in this country who have the least. I do not think that that is consistent with the vision that we all share as New Zealanders of this idea of a society where we are all looked after. This bill does not look after our most vulnerable people, and it does not look after our vision of an inclusive society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe Dunedin School of Medicine of the University of Otago was very clear in its message in response to this policy point, saying that the longer a family is able to stay in a State house, the better the health outcomes for children. This bill is going to cost the health of our most vulnerable children. The Government is putting in these token efforts around rheumatic fever, when we know that one of the main drivers of rheumatic fever is overcrowding and poor-quality housing. Here we are, putting through a bill that actually threatens initiatives that might help the health of those children. It is dishonest to put forward some money in here and say: \u201CWe really care about this issue\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00220e777ae0d10e49afa55d9b7d5165498e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e777ae0d10e49afa55d9b7d5165498e\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about the reviewable tenancies in Part 1 of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill as well. I have been looking through the proposed legislation\u2014proposed new section 57AC, \u201CHNZ may investigate circumstances of prospective tenant\u201D, and proposed new section 57AD \u201CHNZ may investigate circumstances relevant to continued eligibility\u201D, and it goes on and on and on and on. It strikes me that this is what you have to have when you get rid of tenancy managers; when you basically have words in legislation replacing what tenancy managers at Housing New Zealand used to do every single day. I think I would rather have human beings in control of the well-being of some of our most vulnerable families than words on a bit of paper, guided by an overarching policy framework that is to evict 3,000 families from their homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat is essentially what proposed new sections 57AA to 59AA actually do. If you had actually talked to one of those people we used to call \u201Ctenancy managers\u201D, what they would tell you consistently is that, yes, they do try to move tenants on when their circumstances change; yes, they do take into account factors like the health of the individuals and whether they have children in local schools; and, yes\u2014because, remember, tenants go through an income-related rent process every single year\u2014they do find out when tenants\u2019 circumstances change. But they say that the biggest single reason why tenants do not move on is not, as the Minister of Housing has been saying, that they are selfish, nasty, and do not want to give up their house to someone else; it is that they have nowhere to move to\u2014they have nowhere to move to. That is why people stay in State houses when their circumstances change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe second reason why they may be reluctant to move is because they cannot afford it. It is because the cost of moving is significant. If you consider what this Government has done in its residential tenancy legislation\u2014which requires any letting fee to be charged to the tenant, rather than to the landlord\u2014paying letting fees, bonds, and rent in advance and the cost of actually moving are expenses these families cannot afford. That is the reason they are not moving, Minister\u2014that is the reason. They have nowhere to move to, and Nick Smith says they are selfish for not wanting to be homeless. Well, I have to say that kind of sums up this Government\u2019s approach to housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe reality is we did not have an issue with this when we let tenancy managers do their job and develop relationships with their tenants. There is, actually, incredibly high turnover in Housing New Zealand houses. These are not, as the Minister is suggesting, a whole block of people just staying there and refusing to move. There is a lot of turnover in these houses, but if people have nowhere to move to, then all we are doing is evicting families into homelessness. It is a shame that this National Government is saying that that is an appropriate policy to be putting forward in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe Minister, when he made his comments earlier, gave a challenge to the Labour Party asking how you redevelop communities without demolishing houses. I have an answer for him. The answer is that you do what Labour was doing in the T\u0101maki Transformation Programme, where you guarantee that the number of State houses will stay the same but the proportion will go down. So there will be more houses in general, mixed tenancies, but the number of State houses will stay the same. That was a guarantee that we gave to those tenants, and this National Government broke that when it decided that the number of State houses would go down. So there is a response to the Minister\u2019s question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EPart 1 of this bill is deeply, deeply disturbing for the many families whom it affects. Yes, there are a number of families on market rents in State houses. In the provinces Housing New Zealand plays a very different role, as the Minister should know, from what it does in the cities. Sometimes people will be on a market rent not because their income is high but because the rents in the local region are low on average but there is no alternative rental housing. In the provinces we are very, very short of adequate rental housing, and Housing New Zealand is a significant contributor to that. These are not rich families. These are not families who are rolling around in money, filling up State houses because of some selfish desire to keep people out. These are families who are on low incomes, but because the average rental across that area is also relatively low, they are on a market rent. But they are not rich, and they have no alternative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have about 60 State houses sitting empty in Gisborne while we have families in garages and families living in cars because this Government says they are too rich to be able to access a State house. Well, I can tell you that they are not rich. I can tell you that those State houses are a very valuable asset for our community. We would be able to house people in them tomorrow if they were not being readied for sale\u2014because that is what is happening up and down the country. That is what Part 1 of this bill is all about, actually. That is what reviewable tenancies are all about\u2014getting people off the waiting list. Let us remember that the Government scrapped the category C and D portions of the waiting list; it said that those people were rich. Well, they were not\u2014not at all. That move culled 5,000 people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2cdc5fc34334c9fa5274d8dbf3dae37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2cdc5fc34334c9fa5274d8dbf3dae37\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, which we will not be supporting in this Committee. It is a bill that takes us backwards rather than forward. It is a bill put forward by a Government that is clearly out of touch. In a time of widening inequalities we have here the removal of facilities for those who are most in need. Instead, it seems to be a Government that is distracted by doing deals with cronies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI recently attended the Salvation Army report launch for the report Give Me Shelter, an assessment of New Zealand\u2019s housing assistance policies. That report, just out, shows that the Government has been dropping down its capital contributions to Housing New Zealand and upping its dividends. If I can quote, it found between 2002 and 2012 that \u201COver the seven years of its oversight the Labour-led government provided Housing New Zealand with $758 million in capital contributions and received $272 million in dividends leaving a net $486 million in funds in the Corporation. Over the three years of its oversight the National-led government has provided the Corporation with $129 million in capital contributions, received $271 million in dividends resulting in a net $142 million withdrawal of funds from the organisation.\u201D I think those following the debate at home on the wireless or on the television will see the pattern here. We had a Labour Government that was investing in supporting those most in need, and we have a National Government that is pulling the rug out, quite literally, from under families who are struggling in this difficult time, who are enduring the National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOne of the other points that was made in that report was that the real value of benefits as they drop relative to the cost of living has made housing so much more unaffordable for the most vulnerable members of our society. There is an extensive array of charts and tables in the back of that very detailed assessment, and I recommend that anyone who is interested and who is following this debate should get a copy of the Salvation Army report Give Me Shelter. It is damning. It does ask for a really major rethink of housing policy, particularly social housing policy, in this country, and that is a fair thing to call for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill clearly is designed to fulfil National\u2019s vision of a contestable market\u2014of that there can be little doubt\u2014for social housing. Labour does not share the view that the Government should just be one player amongst many. We have a view that the expansion of community-sector social housing is a core function of the State. The Government should not duck its responsibilities in this area. In fact, in part this tinkering, this cutting and chopping here, there, and everywhere is symbolic of a Government that has failed to manage the economy effectively, and is looking at ways to chop the pie up differently and attribute even smaller parts to those who need it most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill itself, of course, was a rushed mess. Supplementary Order Paper 390 is a fairly thick document. I think anyone watching on their television at home will be able to see that. I note that even on the Table in the middle here the original bill has not been supplied, because in the rushed rewrite most of the content is different. It is no longer worth reading the original bill. This has been a messy process, and that speaks to the ad hoc nature of the bill, and the lack of an overarching vision for social housing. Five years of a lack of vision has seen State housing decline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI note also in the regulatory impact statement on the social housing reform programme that some key lines have been removed. But just above those removed lines, under the heading \u201CLimitations on the Analysis Undertaken\u201D, it says: \u201CWithout decisions on the specific components of the final framework, the analysis that can be undertaken by officials is constrained.\u201D Right up front in the regulatory impact statement that we have been supplied with is an admission that the analysis of it is constrained. Then we learn that that was followed by a complete rewrite of the bill. This is a shambles. This not how good policy is made. This is not how visionary policy is made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5a93ea72a214b71bcba699eccef244c\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCalamity\u201D Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4ede0be8e424699a9877d62737a35f3\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: This is the work, my colleague says, of Nick \u201CCalamity\u201D Smith. The parts that have been removed immediately after the admission of constraint are protected under the Official Information Act 1982, section 9(2)(f)(iv). Anyone who has redacted documents as an official will know that that is the section protecting Minister\u2019s confidentiality. So, basically, it is the section that says that you cannot know, because we are not going to tell you. It is that wonderful thing in the Official Information Act that says that Ministers might still be making decisions on things, but, anyway, they are not going to tell you the details of what they are considering. So, not only do we have a constrained analysis of a bill that was then completely rewritten but we have the detail of what is still going on withheld from the public and withheld from the members of Parliament who must debate the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis all points to a shambles of a process. It says that the Government really does not have an idea of what it is going to do with social housing. But the one thing that is clear is that it is going to try to pull back expenditure so that it can afford more generous deals in other areas that it is interested in. We think immediately of the corporate welfare for Skycity, the Rio Tinto corporate welfare where there was not even a jobs guarantee asked for, and what looks like an imminent handout to Chorus. The Government is very keen and quick to support corporate players that are struggling but it is somewhat more reticent when it comes to the individuals at the bottom of the heap, who are struggling the most. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn this regulatory impact statement we also find, on page 3, some interesting analysis. The problem definition says that \u201CA range of problems exist with the current market for social housing in New Zealand including: state housing is not well matched to need; there is a lack of alternatives to state housing that offer security of tenure and affordability; government financial assistance for housing is inequitable; increasing demand is likely to create fiscal pressures in the future that may be difficult to manage under the current state provider model.\u201D There are four issues raised here. The Government seems focused on dealing only with the fourth one. It seems to want to get there as quickly as it can, to cut costs where it is delivering services to the most vulnerable, obviously, as I have said, so that it can put more money the way of those who are already at the top of the heap. But it is not addressing the other three problems that are clearly identified in points one, two, and three: \u201Cstate housing is not well matched to need; \u2026 a lack of alternatives to state housing that offer security of tenure and affordability; [and] government financial assistance for housing [being] inequitable.\u201D Those are all problems identified by the Government\u2019s own officials that are not adequately addressed in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is tinkering and that is not making the real change that is needed to provide secure housing for our most vulnerable citizens. It is a Government that has as vacant, underutilised, or overcrowded over 9,000 properties, or 14 percent of the State housing portfolio. That is just a shambles, and the Minister of Housing must stand up and explain why he is doing this higgledy-piggledy approach. Is he being stymied by a Cabinet that has other priorities? Is it the case that he is getting around to dealing with things, or is it just that he is incompetent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill takes New Zealand nowhere except backwards. It removes security for those who are most vulnerable, and it does not outline a vision of a better New Zealand that we would all hope for, the kind of vision that Labour is presenting with its KiwiBuild programme, with affordable power prices, and the like. We want a future that works for all New Zealanders, a fair and just society where all live in dignity, an environment that we can protect, and a nation that we can all be proud of. Instead, this bill takes us backwards. It is a sign of a Government that is out of touch, that is not in touch with the widening inequalities, and that is arrogant and not listening to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill needs to be voted down. I urge the Government to reconsider its options and present a decent policy that we could own across the House\u2014one that looks out for those most in need, one that addresses the policy problems identified by the Government\u2019s own officials, and one that is actually a step forward for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00221162375db84e4e679b28eae45bb11e90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221162375db84e4e679b28eae45bb11e90\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for allowing me the opportunity to speak in this debate on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. Here we are again. We are in urgency. I think that just about says it all really, pushing this through in urgency. I think nothing actually more describes how chaotic this Government\u2019s approach is to social housing than the fact that my colleague who just took his seat, Dr David Clark, is absolutely right. The Government is in complete chaos when it comes to actually, first, understanding the housing needs of New Zealanders, and, second, identifying the right solution to fix the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EHere in Part 1 the Government demonstrably gets it wrong. It absolutely gets it wrong. Nick Smith, the Minister of Housing, made a big deal before about being concerned about the 4,000 New Zealanders who are lucky enough\u2014and I would have to say \u201Clucky\u201D, under this Government\u2014to have made it on to the waiting list for Housing New Zealand properties. Well, if the Minister was genuinely concerned about those 4,000 people and their families on that waiting list, then he would be doing something about the number of houses available in the housing stock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThat is the fundamental issue, Dr Smith. I think my colleague Jacinda Ardern put it very well when she used the analogy of that party game\u2014I think we in New Zealand have all grown up and participated in it\u2014musical chairs, where you have a number of chairs, and when the music stops, everyone has got try to find a chair. The secret to that is that you keep taking away a chair every time. That is what this Government is doing. That is exactly what this Government is doing. It is reducing the housing stock available for Housing New Zealand tenants, and that is the basis of this problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt is not going to be fixed by just putting more and more pressure on and giving less and less security for the housing of those who are currently Housing New Zealand tenants. That is not going to resolve the issue for the lucky 4,000. I call them the \u201Clucky 4,000\u201D not because actually their circumstances are that lucky but because there are many, many people who cannot even get on the waiting list for Housing New Zealand properties because they are not deemed to be needy enough. We used to call them priority C and D, actually. Under a Labour Government, they used to actually get on to a waiting list, and were recognised as having a housing need. Under this Government, they are no longer even recognised as having a housing need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo what is this Government\u2019s response to that? Well, I also attended the launch of the report from the Salvation Army\u2014its very important report, Give Me Shelter: An Assessment of New Zealand\u2019s Housing Assistance Policies\u2014and I was shocked. Even though I know the track record of this Government, I was shocked to learn that it has been bleeding Housing New Zealand dry of capital investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWhat do we mean when we say \u201Ccapital investment\u201D? I just want to make sure people at home understand this. We are talking about the funding to build more houses. That is why capital investment is so important. Here is what has happened\u2014here is what the Salvation Army found. It found that over the 7 years of oversight by a Labour-led Government, we provided Housing New Zealand with $758 million in capital contributions\u2014that is, funds to build more State houses. And at that time the Government received $272 million in dividends, leaving a net $486 million in funds in the corporation. However, over the 3 years of its oversight, the National-led Government has provided the corporation with just $129 million in capital contributions. That compares with the $758 million in capital contributions coming from the Labour-led Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo it is absolutely easy to see what is going on here. The Government is requiring more dividends, but giving less money for capital investment. That means fewer houses are being built. It is as simple as that. The chair has been taken away. And then another chair is taken away, and another chair is taken away. So if Dr Smith really does care about those 4,000 tenants, then he would be taking an approach of ensuring that there were more capital contributions going into the Housing New Zealand Corporation, rather than using that money, as he has, to fund tax cuts for the rich. That is what has happened. That is what has happened with that big amount of money under this Government. It has gone into tax cuts for people who did not need it, quite frankly, and out of the pockets of people who desperately need housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022730bfb68a4d04951ab016ccdfe13edbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022730bfb68a4d04951ab016ccdfe13edbc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I want to put the record straight in respect of a point that has been made by two members, Dr Clark and Sue Moroney, about the Government\u2019s funding for Housing New Zealand, because they are telling half-truths and grossly misrepresenting the situation. Let me tell members the numbers, because I have them in front of me. The average dividend per year that was taken from Housing New Zealand by the previous Labour Government was $44 million per year\u2014that is true. It is also true that the dividend that the Government is taking this year from Housing New Zealand is $70 million. Members of the Opposition are then concluding that the Government is not giving Housing New Zealand as much money. But what they are overlooking is how much the Government pays Housing New Zealand each year for services, for the provision of housing. In Labour\u2019s last year in Government that amount of money was $500 million per year. This year that figure is $700 million per year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921f57b3df414922b53a74fb048e0bb9\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: But that\u2019s not building more houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022286130a669ef49b1b0e0069b6b5b4f91\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Talking about capital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ea16209f4f4a5299902a71e2e9c7a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, the members are simply saying \u201COh\u201D, but that is not what they said. Neither Phil Twyford, nor Sue Moroney, nor Dr Clark\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c50aa694b7f43098dfa4ebc36547963\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I do not know what sort of disability the Minister has, but he repeatedly mispronounces my name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022386c382f18ae4f999bc12dd5abcbe397\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Please sit down. If the member has a point of order, he should not cast overall aspersions on the member Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4f3731eea6a41a7b7ab6e179040f132\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: He should pronounce my name correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e48e78309e054266954cbd653ae16313\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will just finish that point. I do not actually understand what the member was trying to say, because he began by attacking the member, and that is not what a point of order is about. If you have a point of order, you should get up and raise it tersely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ae7c98d4f1f4c17ae6a8c3fe292705a\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8d5ea6553fd4636a77528d0bea56b38\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have finished. You have lost your opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222809d8698bdd4004bd8b27495a3bea50\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c9d956d4f241738e7b353c2c80864d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this continuing the point of order that I have dealt with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3706623d404fe8a2ebfe0a819f113c\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what the previous point of order was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fefa5c67495740d5b22b8e7ee1164e04\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c53516571054a098b92c469724c1f72\u0022\u003EDenis O\u2019Rourke\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that the Minister used, in pronouncing another member\u2019s name, the word or name \u201CTryford\u201D instead of \u201CTwyford\u201D. He should correct that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de18335226c14ecd948d3842b8d54f25\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if that is what the member said, I will just ask him to be more careful in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261d33826a415477bb86093dc28f633ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is often that Ministers do not attempt to respond. I am just making a very clear point. Labour members are claiming that this Government\u2014all sorts of colourful rhetoric\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237ce5fc40b334a989191d2dfcc4f6768\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Capital contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022271f0fc7c5a340a78cb460ff2ccd9684\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not what Sue Moroney said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc5659cf527644f0952cf67260c14293\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was\u2014quite specifically, it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220633870791bc4b4ca919203649de120a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, she claimed that the Government was robbing Housing New Zealand of cash to pay money off to its rich mates, and all this sort of rhetoric, and she is wrong. The reality\u2014the true numbers, when you consider all of the transactions that occur between Housing New Zealand and the Government\u2014is that this Government is spending record amounts on social housing. Members opposite cannot claim differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228c496a9077ca42e18d23838a89799aff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c496a9077ca42e18d23838a89799aff\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E You know, this National Government is essentially showing in this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, the continuity of policy from the Ruth Richardson Government of the 1990s, with one exception: the Ruth Richardson Government in the 1990s was more honest. It simply slashed housing by 13,000 in total housing stock, creating the housing crisis that Labour Governments always inherit, and it introduced market rent\u2014market rent that people could not afford. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis Government is trying to do it in a slightly more cunning way in this bill. What it is doing is that it is first of all undermining the stock of State housing and the capital investment, and Nick Smith knows that. He knows that he has reduced, not increased, the number of State houses. Have you not reduced the number of State Houses by 700, Mr Smith? Those are the figures that I have. Mr Smith knows that he has reduced the capital input into State housing, unless he is calling the Salvation Army a liar in its latest report. Is the Minister of Housing doing that? Or is the Minister ready to confirm that the Salvation Army, which actually and genuinely is concerned about the supply of housing for our most vulnerable and lowest-income people, says that whereas the previous Labour Government increased capital by a net $486 million, he has produced a net withdrawal of funds of $142 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYou see, it is the same old National Government. It does not give a damn about the most vulnerable and the neediest people in this community. Well, I want to say this, Mr Smith: I do care about the people in my electorate who cannot afford housing of their own. They are people who need the stability of housing for their kids\u2019 sake, and they are people who before they got a State house had their kids go to a dozen different schools in as many months. That is what undermines the future chances of our kids today. And what is Nick Smith doing in this bill? He is taking away the fundamental thing that Housing New Zealand was able to provide, and that was stability and security of tenure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThirty years ago when I was Minister of Housing, Mr Smith, I introduced something called income-related rents. That scheme said that we subsidised people so that their housing was affordable, up to the point where they started to earn more money, and then they lost their subsidy. The Minister has got 61,000 tenants who are on income-related rent, and 4,800 who are on market rent. What that shows is that, overwhelmingly, the majority of State house tenants are the people who have very low incomes and who could not afford decent and secure housing in the private sector. Amongst those 4,800, when I talk to the people in my Housing New Zealand areas, are people whose incomes have gone up temporarily, but it is late in their lives. They will never be able to afford their own home and their income will, at a certain point, again go down. What Mr Smith is going to do is throw those people out at a late point in their lives, when they cannot afford a home of their own, and take away their ability to have decent, affordable, and secure housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe whole reason why we have State housing is so that kids can grow up in housing that is warm and healthy. Mr Smith was quite right to say: \u201CHey, we will have all of our State houses properly insulated.\u201D But Mr Smith also needs to acknowledge that the one sector of our community that has done almost nothing to make those houses warm and dry is the private rental sector. If you talk to any doctor in this country, and if you talk to the general practitioners in my local community who service my low-income areas, they will say that one of their biggest problems is that in the private sector there is no warm and dry affordable housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat Mr Smith is doing, in continuing what National Governments have always done in the past, is ripping the guts out of Housing New Zealand, but what he is pretending to do this time is that he will take 20 percent of the houses off Housing New Zealand and he will give them to the community housing sector. I am all in favour of the community housing sector, but I know what Mr Smith\u2019s next step is. When he has transferred the responsibility, he will start withdrawing the resources that he gives to the community housing sector. That is the plan of the National Government. What worries me is that once again our most needy and our most vulnerable citizens in this country will be left in a worse position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIt always amazes me that we have money to subsidise Rio Tinto\u2014$30 million to a multinational that is going to pull out of New Zealand anyway\u2014and we will give the film moguls at Warner Bros tens of millions of dollars and change the legislation for them, and we will give Skycity the ability to increase its gaming machines and give $400 million in subsidies there, but when it comes to meeting the basic needs of human beings to have decent housing, particularly for our kids, because it is the kids who benefit most, this Government does not care. It does not matter how you dress it up, Mr Smith. That is what you are doing. You are taking the housing stock away from Housing New Zealand, where there was some guarantee that people would have ongoing access to that sort of housing, and you are removing the security of tenure, which is a basic need for our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe have got schools in my electorate, like the May Road Primary School, Hay Park Primary School, or Wesley Primary School, where I talk to the principals and they say: \u201CThank God, in this area on the isthmus of Auckland we have State housing. Otherwise, low-income people couldn\u2019t afford to live on the isthmus of Auckland.\u201D In my area I have low-income people for one reason and one reason alone: there is a decent stock of State housing, which gives people on low incomes the ability to live in that area close to where they work. Dr Smith, you are intending to take that away. You are intending to sell off those places and to congregate the people in the south and the west, which is the only place where you will have people in State housing. Well may you walk away from that question, because that is the truth of what this Minister is trying to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe can be proud in this country that since the 1930s people of all incomes who have been in urgent need of housing have had a place to go. That is what State housing was about and that is what Housing New Zealand is about, and once again we are seeing a Government that simply wants to undermine a fundamental social institution in this country. It is an institution that I call fundamental because, as Norman Kirk said, one of the critical things that people need in life is an affordable home. Housing New Zealand can guarantee that, but we have seen the erosion of how the corporation can provide that housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYou know, with housing problems go social problems. Once upon a time in my electorate the people who worked for Housing New Zealand would take responsibility to help out with some of the social problems of the tenants there. Dr Smith\u2019s goal is to have Housing New Zealand being nothing other than a glorified private sector provider that takes no responsibility for those social problems. Once upon a time we had people who were equipped and able to go around the State houses and make sure that things were OK. The Government has stripped that back. Now what it is doing is stripping back the number of State houses and it is stripping back that fundamental principle that has existed for the best part of 80 years\u2014when you go into a State house, provided you pay your rent and provided you look after that home, you have security of tenure. That house is not just bricks and mortar or timber and corrugated iron; it is your home. It is the place that is secure for you. It is the place where you can maintain tenure so that your kids do not have to change school every year. It is the place where you can afford a home that is of a decent quality. What this National Government is doing, albeit in a slightly more cunning way than the Richardson National Government did, is stripping the most poor and the most vulnerable of the right to have that sort of housing assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party will oppose this bill. It will oppose it with the support of every person in the housing sector who has looked at the needs of those who are vulnerable and who believes that the steps that this bill takes are steps in the wrong direction. We need more houses, not fewer houses. There is a housing crisis\u2014we are short of 80,000 houses, according to the New Zealand Institute\u2014and that means that more people are competing for fewer houses, which means higher rents. You have things like the introduction of loan-to-value ratios\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002293292fe3f4614b15ab7308e5765a4f76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293292fe3f4614b15ab7308e5765a4f76\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to oppose this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, with every fibre of my being. This is an absolute abrogation of responsibility by this Government for the poor and the needy in our communities. This bill is an effort by this Government to get rid of the housing affordability problem. How does it choose to do that? It chooses to do it by loading the problem on to an under-resourced third sector to provide more housing, and in so doing the Government completely ignores the scale of the problem out there and the scale of the capacity of the Government to fix it. In fact, only the Government has the capacity to improve housing affordability on the scale that is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill tries to do three things. First of all, it says that the Government will hand over the income-related rent subsidy to the third sector. Here comes the first stage of the dismembering of Housing New Zealand. So the Minister of Housing, Dr Smith, goes to his home electorate and he announces\u2014in the particular pork-barrelling way he has\u2014that the Nelson Tasman Housing Trust is just going to get another injection of money so it can build another six houses in Kawai Street. The Nelson Tasman Housing Trust is a wonderful example of a third sector housing organisation, but another six houses in Kawai Street is not going to fix the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe Minister has no wish for a National Government to address the issue of housing affordability using all the levers at its disposal. No, it is quite the contrary. What the Government is wanting to do, and what Dr Smith is a past master at, is to skirt around the problem and say: \u201CThese people over here will be resourced to the tune of $27 million.\u201D, or some paltry sum that is not going to allow them to scale up either their own capability or the number of houses they can build to address the problem of housing affordability. The $27 million over 4 years is not going to touch the sides of the housing affordability problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf this were a Labour Government, it would be looking to use every piece of apparatus available to the State, as we did in our 9 years, to make affordable housing a reality. However, this Government, a National-led Government, has sat on its hands for 5 years, until finally the focus groups and the polling have shown it that housing affordability is a problem that is being experienced even by people who voted for it. So that then galvanises the Government into action. So what do we see? Here is the easiest solution. We can flick off some of the responsibility by giving money out, but not much\u2014just $27 million over 4 years. We can give out money to the third sector, which can build four houses here and six houses there and maybe 10 in Auckland, if you are really lucky. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAnd then here comes the second part of this bill. It then seeks to move the needs assessment for housing from Housing New Zealand to the Ministry of Social Development. So the Ministry of Social Development will take the responsibility for determining who should get a State house. Here we have the whittling away of Housing New Zealand, so the Government can say: \u201CWe\u2019ve put all this into the great morass of the Ministry of Social Development, and it is no longer our responsibility to run housing through a specialised agency.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut the third thing that the Government seeks to do in this bill is the most pernicious, and it is this business about making all State house tenants have reviewable contracts. Dr Smith, in his opening remarks, said that there was a man in his electorate who worked on a fishing boat who was earning $100,000 a year and lived in a State house. I can probably name that man. If I am right about the one I am thinking of, he has three children. He has three children and he wants them all to go to the same school. He wants them to go to Hampden Street School and to all grow up in the same area, and not be shifted around from pillar to post. He is making sure that there is a continuity and a security about their upbringing that a stable house provides. He will be paying a market rent. If he is earning that much money\u2014and I have to tell you, he will be earning that much money only if there is a good catch, because part of their recompense, part of their remuneration, is based on how many fish they catch; what the size of the catch is\u2014if it is a good day and he is earning one hundred thousand bucks, I can be absolutely certain that that man is on a market rental. So there are 4,000 people on market rentals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe reason social housing was provided in the first place was to provide families with stability, to grow communities that were stable, and to avoid ghettoizing people who were in need and who were able to integrate into a community by virtue of their stability and by virtue of the fact that this was their house. There always comes a time when people\u2019s circumstances change. Perhaps the children have all grown up and left and it is time for the elderly couple to move into a smaller property. That is quite a different proposition from simply saying that every State house tenant will have a reviewable contract. Dr Smith says there will probably be only 1,000 of them in the next year who are going to be affected. Well, I say that the fear of that will go to all the other 61,000 who are State house tenants. The fear of having a reviewable contract will undermine the stability of those families, when clearly the vast majority of people in State rental housing are people who need it to be provided by the State, because by his own admission there are only 4,000 people on market rentals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is a travesty. The Salvation Army submission on the bill to the Social Services Committee said, of this issue of security of tenure: \u201CThe most obvious drawback with reviewable social housing tenancies is the poverty trap it creates. If by getting a job or by finding a new partner who may help you financially you end up losing your home there is a real incentive either to do very little to improve yourself or to cheat the system. While the Bill has paid extensive attention to the provisions around monitoring tenants and penalising cheats to some extent it creates these problems by the way in which it makes tenancies conditional.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI hope the Minister has read this submission, because this is creating social disunity, social instability, family dislocation, and insecurity, and those are not things on which healthy communities are built. The whole purpose of State responsibility for the most vulnerable in the provision of housing is to create stable societies and to create a sense of security. That is something the Government should be responsible for. Why would it not want to promote a secure and stable society? Why would it not want that to be part of its brief? Why does it think that this is something that has to be handed over to the private sector, because the private sector knows how to do it better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere is nothing wrong with Housing New Zealand\u2019s ability\u2014until recently, and its downsizing and its closing up shops\u2014to achieve just the social ends that it was intended to achieve in the first place, if only this Government would support it to do that. If only the Government saw that it was its responsibility to provide 3,000 houses in Hobsonville of mixed affordability, including market ones. But, no, this Government said and this Prime Minister said: \u201CNo State houses in my backyard. No State houses.\u201D And so what have we got there? There are 17 houses, and there could have been 3,000. This Government is abrogating its responsibility to people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u002254b809acfb5241bea71812c251ab2e18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254b809acfb5241bea71812c251ab2e18\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take just a brief call on the issue arising out of this bill, the Social Security Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, because it is an important issue for all people in this country. We used to come from a proud tradition, and that tradition was called full employment and it was called housing for all. We have lost that. We lost it so long ago that there is a whole generation of people who have no idea that it ever existed. That is not something to be proud of. Part 1 of this bill is not something to be proud of, either. The Green Party has a policy called Home for Life, which addresses Part 1, and there are three excellent ideas in it. There is the idea of shared equity and progressive ownership, the idea of a warrant of fitness for rental properties, and the idea of secure tenancies. However, Part 1 attacks secure tenancies in particular, and certainly does not promote the positive ideas that we have come up with around the fact that we have a massive crisis\u2014actually, an epidemic\u2014in shortages of homes. The figures are bandied about, but this morning I saw on Twitter The New Zealand Initiative saying we have a shortage of 95,000 homes in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESo now is not the time to introduce more punitive measures towards State housing tenants\u2014those who still have homes. In fact, it is the worst thing we could do. We should be promoting genuine third sector housing relationships with iwi and community groups, and working on ideas like shared equity and progressive ownership for the many, many families who are in crisis now. We all pay. If we look at this purely from an economic perspective\u2014nothing is pure economics; pure economics is one factor in life\u2014we see that it is false economy to displace people and create more transience in our communities. It is false economy for people to be reviewed in their homes, made more insecure in their homes, or to be homeless. Rather than just creating the idea that it is something that the private sector, as the previous speaker said, magically will provide, why do we not get real? It is time to get real and it is time to listen to groups like the Salvation Army, which has done an excellent job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESo, for example, what is wrong with reviewable tenancies? Well, I learnt something from the previous speaker about this bill, which was that Work and Income or the Ministry of Social Development are going to make some decisions about who gets a State house. What scares me about this, having worked with both Housing New Zealand and the Ministry of Social Development, and what scares the Green Party is that we are moving more and more into a punitive model in welfare, and it appears now that the Government has decided, through this bill, to move housing into a punitive model. The idea that reviewable tenancies somehow will make for a fair or logical use of housing will not stack up. To be honest, the Ministry of Social Development is not capable of running this kind of model. It does not have the expertise, it does not have the commitment, and it is not being driven by the Government to regard this as a human right to housing. It is being driven by the idea that there is a fraud going on. It is similar to the welfare bashing: \u201CThere\u2019s a fraud going on, there are the wrong people doing the wrong things in the wrong place and they need to be monitored. They need to be audited. They need to be checked on. They need to be scapegoated. Then we will get, somehow, greater efficiency.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWell, for children living in houses when they do not know where they are going to be the next week, efficiency is not really the issue. Even 10 years ago, when I was working in housing in Tai R\u0101whiti, there was a grandmother with seven children living in a two-bedroom flat trying to get into a State house. There was a list, but it was a struggle then. How much worse would it be if a person got there\u2014similar people to this woman\u2014and then found they were going to be reviewed and then found that they were not secure, after the long battle to get out of the low priority C classification up to the A classification, even though you are looking after eight children whose parents are in prison and you are a grandmother? The person finally gets there only to find now that it is back to Work and Income. It is a sad thing to say about the welfare system that it is now punitive and sanctioning, but it is even more of a sad thing to see a punitive model being applied to the Housing New Zealand situation. It is actually going to create even more harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESomeone else referred to this as being like musical chairs. I believe Sue Moroney said it is like a game of musical chairs with a shortage of chairs. I actually think this is more like a bad Monopoly game where the State houses are no longer on the board. There is Park Lane for some people, but some other people do not even get to the board. On that board, in the glorious capitalist paradise that we supposedly live in, the very least we could do is have some State houses. The very least we could do is own the fact that the State has a strong role in building third sector housing with partners such as iwi and community groups, but not through reducing people\u2019s access to secure tenancy. That is what is so offensive about Part 1 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00229bbb63c37fda424e90c022109bbff499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bbb63c37fda424e90c022109bbff499\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Norman Kirk once famously said that New Zealanders do not ask for much. They ask for someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for. Well, this Government is stripping away these things, one by one, person by person, community by community, and town by town. It has been described as heartless and it has been described as a shambles, and it is. It has been described as incompetence, and it is. But the unfortunate and tragic thing about this bill, the Social Security Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, is that it is deliberate. It is a deliberate shambles and it is deliberate incompetence. It is deliberate, cold, calculated, and ugly, and it is an attempt to turn social housing into a contestable market, taking the Government out of being a provider or making it just one of many providers\u2014devolving it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt is taking away that core function of the State that ensures a stable house for life. Numerous colleagues have talked about the importance of this, which goes back to the 1930s\u2014that one of the essences of what it means to be a New Zealander is to have these sorts of values, to have a Government and to have a State that sees these things as being valued, sees a house for life, sees stable housing for people on low incomes, and sees itself as having an extremely important role in ensuring that these things exist. Unfortunately, this Government does not, and we are seeing it time and time again, as these things are being stripped away and taken away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EA number of us have talked about the effects of these measures already in parts of our own communities, our own parts of the country, and in our own electorates. I want to talk about some of the issues that are happening in Dunedin, where social housing and State housing have been an extremely important part of the community, where there is a very high proportion of cold, damp housing in our country, and where the Government should be looking at and thinking about ways that it can improve this situation, rather than creating more and more measures that are putting people in more precarious situations and bringing more insecurity into their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe guarantee of stable housing, of a home for life, is being taken away. I want to give a couple of examples, because I think it is always important to try to bring these things to life. I want to talk about the mother with a young child, who came into my electorate office to report that her home was damp and that she was constantly taking her child to the doctor with respiratory problems. She believed that there was a spring welling up from beneath the house. Well, Housing New Zealand performed a cursory inspection, but what it really believed and what it told her and my office was that it wondered whether the preschooler was pouring water on to the carpet and that was creating the issue that was taking that child to hospital. Housing New Zealand did not want to look beneath the surface\u2014literally look beneath the surface\u2014and look for the causes to see what could seriously be done about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI also want to talk about the woman who is living in a house in the heart of my electorate, in South Dunedin, in a private rental with two small children. Her house opens straight on to a busy road and her 3-year-old can open a locked front door. Housing New Zealand has refused her application because she was not falling behind with her rent in her private rental, because she was borrowing from her parents to pay the private rental. She was borrowing\u2014trying to do the right thing\u2014to pay the rent, and that for Housing New Zealand meant that she did not qualify. She did not qualify and she tried to get a cheaper private rental, but her credit history was not good because of all the money she was borrowing, so she was being turned down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EShe was in a spiral and she was a classic case of somebody who needed that help. She came to my office and because it was an individual case with a member of Parliament standing behind her who went to Housing New Zealand to explain fully this situation and to set out the amount of debt she arranged, Housing New Zealand came to the party eventually and arranged for her to move to a fully fenced property near extended family, which was a bonus. Yes, that was a solution, but it took the intervention of a member of Parliament to get that solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, what we are seeing time and time again is that only when somebody goes in to bat and advocates for these people can we get solutions. Even then, the solutions are not always there. These people are not always articulate. They are not always able to set out their cases in a way that Housing New Zealand is going to respond to. What you find, if you can get past the call centre, is that there is often an immovable response. This is only going to get worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI want to give just one more example of the woman who also came into my office who has a student loan and significant other debt. To save money, she was staying on her friend\u2019s couch. Housing New Zealand said that because she was single and working 20 hours a week, she did not meet the criteria for application, even though there were vacant Housing New Zealand homes in Dunedin. Again, the intervention of an advocate can help her in her situation. How many other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people are there out there who cannot go, who do not go, and who have not been into their MPs\u2019 offices and are therefore living in worse circumstances and getting into a further spiral of debt? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe know that there are housing shortages. We know that there is an extreme unaffordability of housing in the main urban centres. We know that increasingly low-income New Zealanders are under greater housing stress, with many being forced into substandard and overcrowded conditions. This is the time for intervention, to empower and to increase the availability of housing, not the time to be taking away the power and making the situation worse for people in these communities throughout New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIn a submission on this bill, the Dunedin Community Law Centre said that this shift is a one-size-fits-all model that does not take into account regional variations and local needs for social housing, and that it takes us away from the core State housing philosophy of stable housing for life. We know that this bill is not good. We know that it must be opposed. We know that we are moving away from that core fundamental New Zealand value of what is important and what helps make our community the way it is, where we believe that social housing is a core function of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe cannot support this bill. We have to have action on our housing crisis, on housing shortages, and on unaffordability. Instead, what we are getting is an approach that is punitive and cold-hearted, and the cold hand of the State is only going to make life worse for so many New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8ce54b2aeeb44eda8947a28dcd2e2a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8ce54b2aeeb44eda8947a28dcd2e2a7\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to resume the call that was so rudely interrupted by the Minister of Housing some time ago. I was debating Part 1 of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. I was up to clause 12. We were discussing the ability of Housing New Zealand to review eligibility for a Housing New Zealand home. I did ask a number of questions of the Minister, which remain unanswered, around the kind of data sharing that would be going on between Government departments as part of these provisions. I would really welcome the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Building and Construction, taking up the mantle and responding to those questions, which still lie on the table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIn particular, I want to go back to this issue of housing insecurity, because, of course, the Minister has said that his rationale for all of these parts\u2014predominantly for Part 1, which allows an ongoing reviewable tenancy, essentially\u2014is his claim that there are, of course, these long waiting lists and extreme demand on our social housing and our State houses. That is not in question on this side, but our response is simply that we must build more housing. The Minister\u2019s response, however, is to actually apply an additional layer of housing insecurity, which is already a significant issue. If you look at, in particular, our poorer areas of Auckland, for instance, there is an incredible turnover of students in our low decile schools as a consequence of insecure tenancy. If we are now doing that to our State housing, that creates a whole additional layer of social issues as a consequence. That was a point I wanted to specifically raise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere are other forms of housing insecurity that have been perpetuated by this Minister at present. I am based in central Auckland. I am a list MP there. Recently, a number of residents in Spring Street flats in central Auckland, where there is a really limited amount of social and State housing available, have been given letters to tell them that Housing New Zealand is currently assessing those properties. There is a chance that they may be moved on, but there is no real final view as to what is going to happen. I wrote to the Minister asking for assurances around that process, and his first response back was to slate me as not being the local elected member, and therefore questioning my right to ask such questions. I thought that was disappointing. Secondly, he did not really give any assurances. I point to that example because those tenants are now in a state of complete insecurity, and, actually, that is what we are about to do to all State house tenants through these reforms\u2014that is, put them on constant notice that at any time they may go through a review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThat review process is set out in Part 1. In new sections 57AB, 57AC, and 57AD, inserted by clause 12, it starts talking about, for instance, how Housing New Zealand may investigate circumstances relevant to continued eligibility. As I have said\u2014and there are quite a number of provisions in that regard\u2014it includes the power of Housing New Zealand, set out in new section 58, to \u201Cask any person whose circumstances it may investigate any relevant questions it thinks fit; and (b) may ask any person whose circumstances it may investigate to verify by statutory declaration\u201D\u2014basically anything that is applicable as a determinant to their circumstances and their eligibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair whether he could explain to the Committee whether or not there will be any guidelines set out around Housing New Zealand and the way it enforces this particular section. The reason I ask that question is that I have seen how Work and Income operates in this regard, and it is the organisation that will be carrying out assessments in the future. The kinds of questions it asks clients go well beyond the scope of what it should be questioning clients over. Of course\u2014of course\u2014everyone in this Committee would agree that it is important that we make sure that people comply with the rules that are set out for those who are in need versus those who are trying to defraud the system, but we have always come from the approach that in doing so that can be balanced by also having a system that is weighted in the notion of dignity. And my concern is that, more and more, entities like Work and Income, under the leadership of Paula Bennett, have moved away from that as a starting point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Minister whether he can set out whether or not there will be guidelines\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fca2415aff1449b3bab07671bcb57ee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fca2415aff1449b3bab07671bcb57ee2\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00229edc463460e7434fa76c7ba35635ac23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229edc463460e7434fa76c7ba35635ac23\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak to the Supplementary Order Papers on Part 1 of this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. Of course, the first Supplementary Order Paper is Supplementary Order Paper 390, in the name of Nick Smith. You will see that this here is the bill we are debating, and this here is the Supplementary Order Paper to the bill we are debating, and the Supplementary Order Paper is actually larger than the bill. The Minister of Housing is a little bit of a control freak. He had to rewrite the entire bill. I think it is quite extraordinary that the day before we debate the bill we get landed with this Supplementary Order Paper that is actually bigger than the actual bill. That is why we are so interested in having this debate. It is because we have not had a lot of time to actually scrutinise adequately this very, very large Supplementary Order Paper to the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to speak in support of Supplementary Order Paper 398, which is a Supplementary Order Paper in the name of my colleague Phil Twyford. What that Supplementary Order Paper would do is it would repeal new section 118\u2014that is in Part 2\u2014but it would also remove the related sections in Part 1. This would get rid of this concept of reviewable tenancies. It is extremely important that we do that because reviewable tenancies are simply a way of keeping people away from State housing, making it as difficult as possible for them, if they have been fortunate enough to actually access State housing, to remain there, and providing enormous uncertainty for the period of time that they are in that State house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat these sections in Part 1 of the bill will do is provide enormous disincentives for people to improve their status. If you do not know where that imaginary line is, where if you suddenly step over it in terms of income you find yourself being evicted from a State house, then you are not going to take on extra hours at work. You are not going to do anything to improve your situation. You will stay where you are and think: \u201CAs long as I am earning only the amount of money I am earning right now and no more, I will not be kicked out of my home, I will not become homeless, I will not have to move to a far more expensive property.\u201D They actually might not even be able to find another property to live in and so end up living in circumstances that none of us in this House would deem appropriate. The Supplementary Order Paper in the name of my colleague Phil Twyford very much addresses this by doing the one thing that will actually stop that from happening, and that is getting rid of the sections in Part 1 that are related to reviewable tenancies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhy this is so important is that not only are we seeing people being evicted from State houses\u20145,000 people who were cut off the waiting list from categories C and D moved under this reviewable tenancy policy\u2014 but we are now looking at another 3,000 people, potentially, being evicted from State housing under the changes in Part 1. It is also important because of the needs assessment process, which my colleague Jacinda Ardern referred to, which will in Part 1 of this bill be transferred to Work and Income. What we are finding with the needs assessment process is that tenants are not getting to have a needs assessment even when they ask for one. I would like to know from the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Building and Construction, what provisions there are in Part 1 that would ensure that every tenant who approaches Work and Income\u2014it was formerly Housing New Zealand\u2014to have a needs assessment done, to assess their eligibility for a State house, actually gets an assessment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EFrom experience, what we know happens is that someone goes to Housing New Zealand, says they want to check whether they are eligible for a house, and Housing New Zealand puts them through this ridiculous process called \u201COptions and Advice\u201D. That process really should have been renamed \u201COptions and Bad Advice\u201D, because they were briefly screened, and on the basis of that brief screening they were told: \u201CI\u2019m sorry, you are not eligible.\u201D But they had not gone through the needs assessment process that Part 1 of the bill promises but does not show how it is going to ensure it actually occurs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EPeople were then walking away, coming into our offices, and saying they had had a needs assessment. So you would say to them: \u201CWell, what category did you end up being assessed as A, B, C, or D?\u201D. They would say, for example: \u201CI was a 2\u201D. You would say to them: \u201CThere\u2019s no such thing as category 2.\u201D, and they would say: \u201CNo, they told me I was a 2.\u201D So you would ring Housing New Zealand, ask whether this person had a needs assessment, and the department would say: \u201CYes, they did. We went through and determined their eligibility.\u201D You would say to the person: \u201CDid they ask to see your bank account number? Did they ask to see proof of identity?\u201D. \u201CNo\u201D\u2014well, then, that was not a needs assessment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe ridiculousness of the situation\u2014and it was the former Minister of Housing Phil Heatley who put this in place\u2014was having to spend hours on the phone just getting Housing New Zealand to admit to the fact that it actually had not done a needs assessment and could not tell you whether that person was going to be category A or category B. That function is now shifting to Work and Income, and what we need in this legislation is a provision that says that anyone who wants a needs assessment to assess their eligibility for a Housing New Zealand property should be able to have one. We do not have this in legislation. We know that we are simply going to see that practice again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u002210aed7bf77ce4fffbad9d79595318bb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210aed7bf77ce4fffbad9d79595318bb7\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dea22911ad814873a432254652704d6c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000393\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to Part 1 and the following amendment in his name to clause 15 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000394\u0022\u003Einsert after new section 64(1):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000395\u0022\u003E(1A) If a power has been delegated to the Corporation under subsection (1), the Corporation may, with the consent of HNZ, subdelegate that power to an employee of the Corporation or of HNZ.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cb4dcf3b34cf4afea88f6a1ac9c57c1f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000396\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 398 in the name of Phil Twyford to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cfa6e7f17dbe4d5099b52b10a1d129a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269cc51c2727448c7b56dd5f079ed953e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022617c08cb974b40f5a2364cefdb3865c4\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to principal Act with effect from day appointed by Order in Council\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00221f12436703b246839ffb8439b89166a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f12436703b246839ffb8439b89166a3\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E We spent some part of the debate on Part 1 of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill talking about the issue of reviewable tenancies and that is because Part 1 confers on Housing New Zealand the power to implement the so-called reviewable tenancies straight away after the Royal assent. But the substance of provisions on reviewable tenancies is actually included in Part 2 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to speak to my Supplementary Order Paper 396, which reflects, I think, some of the wisest and most considered advice that we had from submitters at the Social Services Committee. What this would do is that it would exclude from the provisions on reviewable tenancies the following groups: tenants with a disability, tenants aged 65 or over, and tenants with school-age children. This reflects the advice from people like the academics from Otago University, from its Housing and Health Research Programme, and a number of others who made the point that extending insecurity of tenure to families with school-age children would have a very harmful effect on the well-being of those families and particularly the educational achievement of children. So many of my colleagues have made the point so persuasively, particularly the Hon Phil Goff, who made the point that having stability and continuity is perhaps the single most important benefit of the State housing programme in that it gives to our most vulnerable citizens not only a roof over their heads but also a place that they can call home, a place for families to raise their children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe know that the vast majority of poor people in this country actually do not live in State houses; only 4 percent of the population are housed by Housing New Zealand. Most of the very poor people in New Zealand today basically eke out an existence in the private rental market, which is largely unregulated. Most of the houses at the bottom end of the private rental market are crap. They are of poor quality, they are uninsulated, they are cold, and they are damp. On top of that, tenants in the private rental market are basically at the whim of the landlord. Within 90 days for no particular reason they can be turfed out of their homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThat is the great fallacy underlying this policy of reviewable tenancies: it is based on the notion that once people earn somewhere over the 25 percent threshold then they should be turfed out of a Housing New Zealand house. Well, where are they going to go? We are in the middle of one of the worst housing crises in living memory. There is a terrible shortage of affordable housing in most of our main centres and people simply will not have anywhere to go. So the effect of this policy of reviewable tenancies is simply to more ruthlessly push people through a revolving door in State housing. As my colleagues have said, instead of doing the obvious thing, which is to build more houses\u2014because 4 percent is patently inadequate in a society and an economy such as ours\u2014what this bill does is it just simply and ruthlessly pushes people more quickly through the revolving door. It is wrong, it is unjust, and it is a betrayal of the things that generations fought for and stood for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EPeople built this country on the notion that the people at the bottom of the heap deserve a fair go and the institutions that were built in this country through the middle years of the 20th century were designed to give every child in this country a start in life, a decent opportunity to get ahead. State housing was one of those institutions and this Government and successive National-led Governments over the last few decades have unpicked that and undermined the very foundations of State housing in this country. This bill and the imposition of insecurity of tenure, taking away that stability that families so desperately need, just shows\u2014I do not know\u2014a contempt for people who are State house tenants. It shows a wilful disregard of the evidence that the most credible submitters came to the select committee and spoke about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe do not want to see reviewable tenancies included in this bill, but if they are included, then I ask the Committee to give serious consideration to my Supplementary Order Paper 396, which would exempt the most vulnerable categories. In 2011 Phil Heatley, when he was the Minister of Housing, announced that new State house tenants would be subject to these reviewable tenancies, but he publicly promised that existing State house tenants would not be included in this and he promised that the elderly and the disabled would not be included. Well, this bill explicitly wipes away that political promise. It explicitly gives the power to the Minister of Housing to apply reviewable tenancies to all State house tenants, including families with school-age children, the disabled, and the elderly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBecause there are not enough State houses and because this Government has not done nearly enough to address the fundamentals of the housing crisis, this horrible bill will give the power to Nick Smith to turf 80-year-olds out on to the street because there simply are not enough houses, and that is a disgrace. It is a repudiation of decades and decades of successive Governments\u2019 policies, which they have defended, that Housing New Zealand should at least offer a secure, decent roof over the heads of this country\u2019s most vulnerable people. It is absolute arrogance for the Minister to reject the advice of his great mentor, the Productivity Commission, which advised against this policy. The Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group, as my colleagues have pointed out, explicitly advised against reviewable tenancies, and yet here they are, right at the heart of this bill. Otago University academics announced world-acclaimed public health research that clearly demonstrated the benefits of having secure and stable State housing in terms of the reduced hospitalisation of children, and yet this bill and this Minister rejects that. Instead of doing the obvious thing and building more State houses, what this bill does is it just pushes people through the revolving door ever faster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to comment also on the policy that this bill reflects to shift the income-related rent subsidy to social housing providers. I suppose this is the other key feature of this bill. The Minister has said that it is his vision that Housing New Zealand should become just another tenancy provider, competing in a contestable market with the community housing sector for both tenants and subsidies. It is certainly a view that Labour shares. We want to see a larger, more capable, empowered community housing sector with groups like the Salvation Army, the Housing Foundation, and Habitat for Humanity. They are groups that do an enormous amount of good, and they want to do more. They want to provide their services to a larger group of New Zealanders, and we support that, but we do not support it by simply having Housing New Zealand being carved up, with some of its most important powers devolved off to the Ministry of Social Development or elsewhere, and having 20 percent of the Housing New Zealand stock, as the Minister of Housing has said, being dished out to other organisations in some kind of quasi-contestable market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIf there is one lesson to be learnt from the last couple of decades and the process of devolution of social services, social development, and health services to the community sector, it is that unless adequate funding follows those services and those responsibilities, then the people who will suffer at the end are the recipients of those services. You need only think of the care of the elderly, the care of the disabled, and the mental health services, where, unless adequate funding follows those services, the most vulnerable people suffer. I predict that the National Government\u2019s policy of devolving housing to the community housing sector will be followed by a lack of funding in future years. That is the threat, not only\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002242bea3c0e52f4c61a66a7dd570bec887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242bea3c0e52f4c61a66a7dd570bec887\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to continue just for a moment where my colleague Phil Twyford left off and say to the community housing sector, which would very much like some of the State houses that the Government is talking of handing over, to beware\u2014to be very wary of this Government and its past record when it comes to handing over facilities to the NGO sector, to trusts and others. We have seen this Government\u2019s record in the past, and I need only look at health to see where many of our small hospitals were offered to community groups. A very good example would have to be the small hospital at Te Puia, which was handed over to Ngati Porou with great fanfare. What was never handed over\u2014and now you see the results of it\u2014was any funding for the ongoing capital works of that hospital. It is now in a bad state of repair because a small NGO or a trust does not have the ability to undertake the maintenance and the upkeep of such a facility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo I say to the community housing sector, look very carefully at the fish-hooks in this Government\u2019s proposal. They may well get some houses from Housing New Zealand, but there will not be the money to go with it to maintain them. They will be asked to maintain and find the money to maintain these houses into the foreseeable future, and it will not be long before, cap in hand, these organisations will come to a Government in the future and say: \u201CWe cannot maintain them. We need help.\u201D So that is my warning, carrying on from Mr Twyford\u2019s very good presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBut I want to turn to my Supplementary Order Paper 397. I have a Supplementary Order Paper to amend clause 17, which contains the definition of \u201Ccommunity housing provider\u201D. I want included in there local councils because this bill makes it clear that community housing providers are made up of NGOs and others, but it does not clearly say that councils can be community housing providers and can, therefore, be eligible for income-related rent. So what my Supplementary Order Paper does is make it clear that a community housing provider can also be a council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe reason why I have put this forward is that local government has been a key component in social housing in New Zealand for many years. Christchurch City Council and Wellington City Council together represent the largest social housing providers in New Zealand. Those two councils are significantly bigger than any other community-based provider, and they have dominated social housing for more than 50 years. So despite their role in social housing, it does not appear that they will be eligible for income-related rents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI just want to put the case, particularly from Wellington City Council and its social housing. If you look at Housing New Zealand and Wellington City Council, you would see that together they hold 95 percent of all social housing here in Wellington. There is a similar tenant profile both for Housing New Zealand and for the city council. The city council here has 2,240 units; Housing New Zealand has 1,900. They have about 110 units for every unit from other community housing providers. The city council has got a very good, high-level outcome for community housing here in Wellington. It wants to ensure that it has quality social housing. It wants to ensure that the residents\u2019 health and well-being are well looked after. It is very keen to have sustainability in social housing, and it wants to provide social housing into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe council also wants a strong partnership with central government. That was achieved under the previous Labour Government where, here in Wellington, it put in over $200 million alongside the Wellington City Council to upgrade council social housing here in Wellington. It has been the privilege of Ministers of Housing, under this National Government, to be able to come along and open these refurbished flats for the council\u2019s social housing. In fact, this Saturday we have got the opening of yet another block of flats refurbished by the Wellington City Council, providing social housing to the most vulnerable in our society. Many of them are elderly. Many of them are people who suffer from mental illness. Many of them are people who have come from faraway lands as refugees, and we have given them a good start to their lives here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo I believe that the councils, particularly Christchurch City Council and Wellington City Council, are putting up an incredibly strong case. I am sure that the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Building and Construction, would agree with me. They have a strong case for them to be included as part of the definition of \u201Ccommunity housing providers\u201D in New Zealand. Why would they not be? Why would they not be, when they are the major providers of social housing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIf the Government is serious about having income-related rents provided in social housing by other community providers, why would it not include Christchurch City Council housing? I am sure my colleague from Christchurch Denis O\u2019Rourke understands this. He was on the council and he understands the importance of that social housing. Why would the Government not include councils as part of its income-related rents policy? It would make a huge difference to those councils. As it says in Wellington City Council\u2019s own documents, it is committed to sustainable community housing\u2014not just for now, not just for a few years, but for the long term it is committed to sustainable development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ECouncils want to take responsibility for the most vulnerable, who need good, dry, warm, and safe housing in New Zealand. So I am strongly arguing that the Government consider my Supplementary Order Paper 397. What it does is make it clear that local government can be\u2014can be\u2014a community housing provider, under the bill. Not all of them might want to be, so we are not forcing them to do something they do not want to do. But, based on the submission\u2014a very, very good submission\u2014provided to the Social Services Committee by the Wellington City Council, I know of at least one council that wants to be a community housing provider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo I would be interested in the Minister in the chair or the Minister of Housing, Nick Smith, when he returns to the chair, telling this Committee why they would not include local government in the definition of \u201Ccommunity housing provider\u201D. I cannot think of any reason. I just hope that, actually, the fact that they are not included is an oversight\u2014it is an oversight\u2014that they forgot about it and they did not actually make the change that they would have liked to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI am going to give them the benefit of the doubt\u2014that they really wanted to do this, and it was just a mistake that it was not included. I hope I am right because I know that if I am not right, there will be many, many disappointed local governments around New Zealand that would be wonderful partners with central government. Certainly, I can say that under a Labour Government they will be strong partners with us. As we have shown many times in the past, we value local government. We know what they can do in working with their communities to ensure that the most vulnerable are housed well, with long-term tenancies. Councils provide long-term tenancies. They do not come along and say: \u201CWe are going to review your tenancy\u2014goodbye, you are out of here.\u201D They say: \u201CThis is your home. This is the home that you have made and we will look after your home for you, in conjunction with you as your landlord.\u201D\u2014and a very, very good landlord, indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThank you. I do hope that the Government will give serious consideration to this Supplementary Order Paper 397. It is a serious attempt to ensure that we include the biggest community housing providers in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u002294c8683c73764cb8b280c5255743a9c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294c8683c73764cb8b280c5255743a9c3\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill is an utterly misconceived and completely inadequate response to the intensifying New Zealand housing crisis This is a crisis that the Government sat around watching develop for 5 long years. It is a crisis in which rents in the main centres, especially Auckland and Christchurch, have rocketed. Yet the Government\u2019s priorities are saving money and reducing the size of State housing services, rather than ensuring that the needs of people, especially those at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum, are adequately met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is committed to the provision of a genuine social housing service by the Government as a fundamental responsibility. This service would ensure that people who are unable to buy a home, or for whom homeownership is not appropriate, are able to get one to rent, that they have fair rental related to their income, and that they have stability in their lives. The social housing deficit in New Zealand is now huge. More and more Kiwis are unable to afford a home. Many will never be able to buy one. Their need is for more options for long-term rental housing, which in this country only the State\u2014and, perhaps, local government\u2014can reliably provide for low-income people on the scale needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s social housing policy reduces the scope of operation of Housing New Zealand. It will transfer large sums of money to community housing organisations through subsidies. But there are many unanswered questions\u2014questions I have asked in this Parliament\u2014about some of these providers. What about their competency in managing not just the housing but the people who need it? Can they be relied upon in the long term? Who will they really be in the long term? They will likely become a nightmare to monitor and require significant resources to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for annual reports, but there is very little detail about what those would contain. The bill also provides for intervention powers in the case of a range of possible specified failures, but they would, it is highly likely, also be difficult to administer. The bill also provides for the State agency to give instructions and to appoint an administrator, so why transfer the housing responsibility to such organisations in the first place? None of this gives any real confidence that so much public money should be used in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe State is the best provider where taxpayers\u2019 money is concerned. These community organisations will own the housing funded or gifted by the Government. How do we know the money will be well spent or the housing assets applied for the objectives of social housing? There will be no State asset in return\u2014money out, nothing back. What happens, really, if a recipient organisation fails? Where do the assets go then? Will the agency be able to cope with such a failure? Will the Government be able to cope, for that matter? How transparent and accountable are the processes for allocating funds to community providers? What safeguards and what risk management have been put in place? I have not seen any evidence of that at all. Will they have enough competence in the housing market, when so many private providers have failed? These are just a few of the questions left unanswered by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ELocal government should be considered. I agree with Annette King on this. Local government is, in many cases, well able to do this. Local government has policies that are well matched to local needs. They should be included. But this Government hates local government. That is at the root of why it will not consider that. It is as simple as that, in my view. Although there are some good community providers for social housing, such as the Salvation Army and Habitat for Humanity, there will be many to which the social housing need should not be sent. The risks of that are far too high. There is a risk to the Government\u2019s financial outcomes, and there is a risk to the community\u2019s social outcomes. There are risks for New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable people. There are risks to low-income families from these policies. The risks overall, versus the benefits, are far, far too high. This bill is fundamentally flawed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00221d0069d5b6694818b3986457a6a6db00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d0069d5b6694818b3986457a6a6db00\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak to the provisions of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, starting with new Part 9, that specifically set out how social housing providers are really being brought into the State housing landscape. I want to start with the beginning of new Part 9, which sets out the provisions around the social housing agency. It is interesting\u2014when you read this section of the bill, it is very ambiguous. It kind of sets out the criteria of how the social housing agency will conduct its duties, what it will be governed by, and how it is able to be changed out through, essentially, Order in Council. What we are actually talking about, though, is the way that the Ministry of Social Development will operate as the social housing agency. That is what this section is specifically referring to, so it is interesting to me that these provisions are shaped in the way they are. I would be interested to hear from the Minister of Housing whether or not the Government has purposefully done that in order to allow it some flexibility in future for another agency to take back these powers of, essentially, overseeing all of the additional, frequent assessments that will now sit around this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI take, for example, new section 101, \u201CSocial housing agency\u201D. It says: \u201CThe Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the joint Ministers, appoint a department, departmental agency, or a Crown entity, or any combination of 1 or more departments, departmental agencies, or Crown entities, to perform some or all of the functions and exercise some or all of the powers of the agency under this Act.\u201D There really is a lot of wriggle room built in there. I just wondered whether the Minister could give some explanation as to why he felt that that was important, because the provisions for the functions of that agency are quite broad, but they are significant. The most powerful part of the bill is the handing over of the charge, as it were, to that agency, so why are the provisions so broad? Why not be specific? Why should we not come back to this House to debate the way that it should be governed in future if, indeed, the Minister decides to change that agency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThen we come to the bits in new section 105 that relate specifically to social housing providers. In New Zealand social housing providers have played an incredibly important role in our communities. There are two specific functions I want to speak to that I think the Government has guarded heavily: the ability to provide housing to groups that are not specifically catered for, and tenants who often have particular difficulties being housed. We could place in those categories, for instance, prisoners on release; mental health patients, often on release, as well, from State institutions; those who have experienced severe drug and alcohol issues and have gone through particular programmes; and even those transitioning from night shelter environments into housing. There is a range of clients that community housing providers have specifically catered for in the past. So that has been something very, very special and important that they have done. The second thing that they have done is, of course, they have managed themselves. That has enabled them to often put wrap-around services around this client group. They also advocate on their behalf. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely beneficial to allow those agencies to claim income-related rents for their purposes of housing provision. But that does then place some duties on them, as well. I guess I am trying to see whether or not that dilutes their ability to maintain those really important functions. For instance, \u201Cthe agency\u201D\u2014presumably the Ministry of Social Development\u2014is \u201Cto notify social housing providers of eligibility and housing needs\u201D. So the Ministry of Social Development has to notify the provider each time the agency makes an assessment around \u201Cthe eligibility or continued eligibility of the tenant for social housing;\u201D. Does that mean that if the Ministry of Social Development does a re-assessment or an income-related rent assessment and finds that a tenant is no longer eligible, there is an expectation, then, that that community housing provider moves that individual on, given that it is catering for individuals with quite specific needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00220d1a0c3efc0446329f4636a7bb1e1c8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d1a0c3efc0446329f4636a7bb1e1c8f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill deals with the real heart of the Government\u2019s social housing reforms. It does three important things. Firstly, it opens up the income-related rent subsidy on an equal basis to those people who live in community social housing. So if you are Habitat for Humanity, if you are Accessible Properties, a subsidiary of IHC, or if you are the Salvation Army, and you provide social housing for high-needs clients, you are going to be able to receive the same subsidy that the Government provides for Housing New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second very important reform\u2014and it is substantial\u2014is that when people require housing assistance, they will in future go to the Ministry of Social Development or Work and Income. That makes really good sense because right now, actually, our biggest social assistance for housing comes through the accommodation supplement. The Government spends nearly $2 billion a year on that. The Government also, through Work and Income, provides grants for people to be able to get a bond. It makes really good sense for our constituents to be able to go to one port of call for housing assistance. A person at the Ministry of Social Development may say: \u201CHey, look, we need to give you support to get a bond so you can get a house in the private sector. You may be eligible for an accommodation supplement, or you may be eligible for income-related rent and a social house.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EConstituents get really frustrated right now at getting pushed between pillar and post, and ask: \u201CAm I eligible for an accommodation supplement, or am I allocated for an income-related rent?\u201D. So reform of that makes really good sense, and equally in this bill we require the regulation of the social housing sector. If you are going to get those high subsidies, then it is fair for the Government to say: \u201CWe want to be sure that you run a really good outfit, that you\u2019ve got good tenancy services, that you\u2019re providing good-quality houses, and that you provide the sorts of services that will make for a good social housing provider.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe part that I really want to challenge the Opposition on is this. You can have all the weasel words you like about whether you support the community housing sector or not. I have got a simple question: do you support the reform in this bill that will let social housing providers have access to the income-related rent\u2014yes or no? I have been listening to the debate for 20 minutes, and I am none the wiser. I come away with a clear impression that the Opposition does not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022433b98469d8b4cf9bf608e4d1d19ff13\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I just said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65381d4a3e54ca5950f81feb95b2804\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the members need to be clear on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second point on which I am none the wiser is whether members opposite support the Ministry of Social Development having the role of assessing that comprehensive assessment. It is a big part of the reform. It is actually one of the most important changes. Again, I am none the wiser. I do not get the idea that Labour has any idea what it stands for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a243cd800b4706973b43aefca48e60\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Answer my question, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022745c8c9b13df4bee8ff28a9bb83b02aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, I am simply saying that the substantive policy change in this bill makes those two substantive changes. Does Labour support them, or not? I challenge Labour members and say that if they cannot answer those substantive questions on such an important social issue for New Zealand, then they really are vacant. No wonder their popularity is so low, when they cannot sort out such a fundamental element of their own housing policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdbe3363b8834222a32c9d07abac0c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdbe3363b8834222a32c9d07abac0c21\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased that I am able to continue my contribution. I thought that the Minister of Housing might actually rise to respond to the legitimate questions that I raised earlier in my contribution. Instead, he decided to simply insult the Labour Party and the legitimate questions that we have raised. If the Minister had been listening to my contribution, he would have heard me say that of course Labour has never been opposed to the social housing sector being able to take advantage of income-related rents. We have never been opposed to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7cdbcccc5747d3a85781f671188ed3\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d8ad30d71284e83aaf16183c77773d5\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: How could you be opposed to the idea of giving that sector an equal footing when it does the kind of role that it does? David Bennett, perhaps you would like to rise and give your contribution on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, given that you have got something to say in the back corner there. We have never said we had any opposition to that, Minister. But we have raised legitimate concerns over whether the obligations giving that sector an extra, additional benefit\u2014which we think they should have\u2014are Draconian and too heavy-handed, and will remove its ability to provide the kind of service that it has been able to provide. That is a point that has been raised time and time again by Phil Twyford\u2014the fact that if, for instance, it takes on some State assets for management, there is then the ability of the Government to come in and basically ride roughshod over its own board and its own governance. Of course, we raise concerns with that. Those are legitimate concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThis is why I am now raising concerns around, for instance, the fact that if the Ministry of Social Development has the ability to create an ongoing review of tenancy\u2014the basic premise of our opposition to this bill is that fundamental principle\u2014how is that also going to affect the social housing sector? If it is able to preside over income-related rents, Minister, does that mean, for instance, that the Ministry of Social Development can come in and use its all-encompassing powers to ask any question it wants, proceed with any investigation it chooses into the eligibility of a tenant, and then call into question the social housing provider\u2019s role in providing that housing? What if, for instance, that social housing provider provides a social worker who deals with that individual on an ongoing basis? Could the Ministry of Social Development question them about their knowledge of income, of asset base, and of changed circumstances? Could that then put them in a conflicted situation? These are all relevant questions. As we have seen in Part 1, the area of questioning that the Ministry of Social Development is allowed to engage of a tenant and the information it is able to draw in to review tenancy are quite broad and quite sweeping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI ask those questions very legitimately because we have seen a similar thing happen with Work and Income and the way it manages youth services. It is now the case for youth services that all of the administering of benefits has been contracted out to youth providers, in the same way that we are now pushing out some of this to the community housing sector. Those youth providers who previously had a really strong relationship with the young people they were working with, as our community housing providers do with their tenants, are having to play policemen, as well. They are having to look at whether or not someone should be eligible for an additional food grant, for instance. It fundamentally changes their role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe need to make sure that community housing providers who in the past have advocated on behalf of their tenants in various forms are not now in a compromised position through some of these provisions. As I say, of course, we want those providers to have access to income-related rents on behalf of their tenants, but we want them to maintain their special role in the community housing sector at the same time. That is why I want to ask the Minister of Housing a question. New section 105(4), in clause 19, says: \u201CA social housing provider is entitled to rely on a notification given under this section.\u201D That new section also states that the agency must update notifications regularly around a tenant\u2019s eligibility for social housing. And it also sets out that the agency can then review and appeal, etc., as part of those provisions. My question is: can a social housing provider directly appeal a decision that has been made by the agency or the Ministry of Social Development? That provider, of course, will be very close to the tenants and will know the circumstances of its tenants. Is it able to make use of the appeal provisions on behalf of its tenants if the Ministry of Social Development undertakes a review that deems a tenant to no longer, in its mind, be eligible for an income-related rent? I can anticipate those kinds of circumstances. In the past we have relied on community agencies to take those appeals. What role will those social agencies have in those kinds of disputes? It is a legitimate question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8bc4c3306a437597c881573ad7ae0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8bc4c3306a437597c881573ad7ae0d\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the second part of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. The Minister of Housing asked whether the Labour Party supports the handing over of income-related rental subsidies to the third sector\u2014to community sector housing providers. If it were as simple as that, the choice would be easy. Of course they should access that money. Of course they should access, on an equal basis, the income-related rental subsidy, because they are helping the Government in its purpose of finding adequate housing for those who need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe trouble is that it is not as easy as that, and the Minister is being quite simply disingenuous by suggesting that this is a yes/no choice. Our issue is also about the quantum of money and the expectation that the third sector, the civil society housing sector, will be required to take over the Government\u2019s responsibility for the provision of housing for those most in need. At $27 million over 4 years, Minister\u2014$6.75 million a year\u2014that is not going to do it. So, sure, give the third sector $27 million over 4 years to improve its capacity but do not abrogate the Government\u2019s responsibility as the primary agent available to produce and build the greatest number of affordable houses. This is simply shifting the buck. This is simply privatising a responsibility of the Government and doing it inadequately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESo, yes, we are perfectly happy for the third sector to have access to income-related rental subsidies, but that is not all there is to it. We would prefer that the Government actually stepped up to its responsibilities instead of waiting 5 years and doing nothing about affordable housing until the noise around it became so great that it had to apply one of its noisiest members to it. The Government is now scrabbling for anything that might get this monkey off its back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to speak further about Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment\u2014Supplementary Order Paper 396. Supplementary Order Paper 396 relates to the provisions in clause 19. What Phil Twyford\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper seeks to do is to amend clause 19 so that the ability of any agency to review the housing needs of a tenant\u2014this is the implementation of the reviewable tenancies part of the policy\u2014does not apply to tenants with a disability, tenants aged 65 years or over, or tenants with school-age children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to know from the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Housing, who is meant to be answering some of our questions, why he is not supporting Supplementary Order Paper 396, or whether in fact he is supporting it. I bet my bottom dollar he is not supporting it because it has come from Labour, but what could possibly be wrong with exempting tenants with a disability, tenants aged 65 years and over, or tenants with school-age children from reviewable tenancies? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI have already spoken\u2014earlier, in the debate on Part 1\u2014about the creation of secure communities\u2014families that are secure; families that are not threatened by dislocation and the upheaval of moving into the private sector; families that do not have the threat of a reviewable tenancy held over them. This is especially important in places where there is inadequate private rental accommodation available, and that is as true in Nelson as it is in Auckland. The quality of rental accommodation is dire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to refer to the submission to the Social Services Committee that was made by He K\u0101inga Oranga, the Housing and Health Research Programme based in the University of Otago. The submission of that research programme says that the bill makes several major changes to social housing, which we know, and it says that it does not support the introduction of reviewable tenancies for all State tenants, which is what is going to happen with this bill\u2014not the people who were excluded previously but, as my colleague Phil Twyford said earlier, all State tenants. It said that it does not support it because of the lack of evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f63f55f6b16d48179ddf02b711e6d740\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Before I was interrupted by the dinner hour, I was talking about a submission to the Social Services Committee on this bill by He K\u0101inga Oranga, which is based in Otago University. It said that it did not support the introduction of reviewable tenancies for all State tenants because of a number of things, and those things included a lack of evidence provided for its efficacy, its cost, the health effects on the lack of security of tenure, the health effects of displacement, the health effects of moving people from State to private rental housing, and the effect on children\u2019s education. These are not stupid people putting a submission together. These are people who are experienced in that whole matrix of health, housing, education, and children\u2019s achievement and stability. For the Government to ignore this outright is a reflection on its own lack of ability\u2014either its own lack of ability to perceive the implications of the policy it is pursuing, or its stubbornness in refusing to address the people for whom social housing ought to be provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI raise that because the next bit that this submitter says was that it recommended that families with school-age children be excluded from reviewable tenancies, along with the groups it thought were already excluded\u2014older people, people with disabilities, and the chronically ill. Those people are excluded by policy only. When it comes to the black letter of this bill, they are not excluded. I want the Minister to explain why they are not excluded. If it was good enough for it to be policy promulgated by the Hon Phil Heatley in 2011, it is surely good enough to turn up in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EHaving those exclusions from reviewable tenancies\u2014that is, older people, people with disabilities, the chronically ill, and tenants with school-age children, as my colleague Phil Twyford suggests in Supplementary Order Paper 396\u2014would go some way to alleviating some of our concerns. But it does not seem that there is any intention for the Minister to do that or even to address why he is not doing that. Quite frankly, Minister, if I might quote the title of Mark Prebble\u2019s book, With Respect, this is not good enough. This does not protect the people who need protecting\u2014the vast majority of those in our State housing stock who need assistance at this time. So my colleague has put forward a Supplementary Order Paper that asks that tenants with a disability, tenants aged 65 and over, or tenants with school-age children be exempt. Why will that not happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00220b916c2d797e4b339517b4ffbf78b836\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b916c2d797e4b339517b4ffbf78b836\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I too want to comment on Part 2 of this piece of legislation, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, on the role of the community housing sector in the Government\u2019s plans, and also on the reviewable tenancy policy if I get time. When the Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group report was released\u2014and that was a group of people who came with a wealth of backgrounds and experience in terms of understanding what really needed to significantly change if we were to address the pressures in social and affordable housing in New Zealand\u2014it came with one very, very firm and stark message from that group, which was: \u201CPlease do not cherry-pick. Please do not just take a few bits of this report that you think you can implement and ignore the rest of it. It is a whole package. It is an entire strategy. If you are going to take this issue seriously, then it is not OK to just pick the bits that you like and ignore the bits that you do not like.\u201D But, unfortunately, what we have seen from this Government since that report was released was very much cherry-picking of some of the elements of the report that they agreed with, and ignoring the rest of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAlthough I think it is a very positive step forward to extend the income-related rent subsidy to community housing providers providing social housing, I will point out that it is only $27 million over 4 years. That is not going to cover even the current community housing providers that are providing social housing\u2014those ones that exist there already. That is not even enough money to cover what has already been done, let alone what this policy was supposedly attempting to do, which was to build more of these third-sector social housing units. It is a kind of laudable policy aim, but the reality is that there is not enough money to even pay for what we have already got, let alone to build this sector up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe second thing I would say about it is that I think it puts the community housing sector in a really invidious position, and it is actually really, really, very unfair. I come back to my cherry-picking comments. If you go and talk to any of the community housing sector organisations, particularly those involved in social housing, they will give you one very strong message: they are absolutely 100 percent committed to security of tenure. They are absolutely 100 percent committed to providing the kind of security that often we take for granted\u2014when you own your own home and you know that you are going to have that tenancy for as long as you choose to have it, barring any great disaster happening. A lot of people take that security for granted, and the benefits that come from that security\u2014the benefits for children growing up in those homes, where their parents can put down roots in their community and they can know that their children are not going to be moved from school to school as they struggle to find accommodation. What we know from endless research in the education area is that transience\u2014moving from school to school and never being able to settle down\u2014is one of the worst things that you can put on a child, and it will have one of the biggest negative impacts on their learning ability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe awful thing about this reviewable tenancy policy, which the community housing sector is now going to have to apply if it wants to access those income-related rent subsidies and which runs up against everything it stands for, is that for most people it is never going to apply. You will get insecurity for 100 percent of tenants who are under this policy for something that addresses a small number of tenants, who in the past Housing New Zealand used to actually work with as human beings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EYou know, remember when Housing New Zealand actually treated tenants like human beings and were allowed to develop relationships, and did not have a Government that removed that personal relationship between tenants and tenancy managers? Back then the tenancy managers would work with the families. When circumstances changed, they would work to move them on. As I said to the Minister of Housing before, the two biggest issues that were stopping people from moving on were not that they were so selfish that they refused to move because they did not want a more needy family to have the State house. It was, firstly, that they had nowhere to move to, and, secondly, that they could not afford the cost of moving\u2014the bond, the rent in advance, the letting fee, and the actual cost of moving. Those were what were stopping tenants from moving on, and nothing in Part 2 of this bill around reviewable tenancies does anything to fix either of those two things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo the problem will continue to go on. We will shuffle people out on to the streets, not knowing where they are going, not caring where they are going\u2014seemingly\u2014and the core problems will not be fixed by Part 2 of this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002244a03ee8666d475ba7d9461c7a934b75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244a03ee8666d475ba7d9461c7a934b75\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak on Part 2 of this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, and to join what is a chorus of dissent on this side of the Chamber, because this bill is a disgrace. People have made the argument from many different angles because it is to be made from many different angles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to add to a couple of the comments I was making on Part 1, because I understand that the main provisions in Part 2, from my reading of the bill anyway, enact those same principle provisions that are in Part 1. The fact that the regulatory impact statement talks about the problems under four headings was something I began to canvass. The first problem is that \u201Cstate housing is not well matched to need;\u201D. These are the problems with the current social housing in New Zealand, according to officials. The second is that \u201Cthere is a lack of alternatives to state housing that offer security of tenure and affordability;\u201D. The third is that \u201Cgovernment financial assistance for housing is inequitable;\u201D, and the fourth is around the cost of the housing and the fiscal pressures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EMr Smith got up to address some of those points\u2014although I note he focused on the Salvation Army report in his response\u2014but those four problems are what seem to be driving the current difficulties with the social housing market in New Zealand. As I pointed out in Part 1, the first three of those problems are not addressed at all by this bill\u2014certainly not in any fashion that could be regarded as forward thinking or visionary for the people for whom State housing is designed to support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement then goes on to point out the number of properties that are not currently being used\u201414 percent of the housing portfolio is either vacant, underutilised, or overcrowded\u2014and then it goes on to say that part of the reason for this is that there is \u201Cuncertainty over the funding necessary to maintain social housing.\u201D I think that is one of the key findings in this regulatory impact statement\u2014the fact that there is not certainty of funding from this Government and that there is no consistent policy that seems to be applied. It is a very ad hoc approach to social housing the Government has taken. We can see that that means that the solutions are ad hoc, and when one is not certain where the money is coming from, one makes do in the short term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat is exactly what these policies represent. They are the kinds of policies that may put band-aids here and there, may make some of these houses habitable, but certainly in the medium term they will be exposed for exactly what they are. Earlier, colleagues talked about musical chairs and the worst kind of musical chairs being where you take away one chair each time the music stops until there are none left. This is exactly what this housing policy seems to represent\u2014a kind of un-fun game of musical chairs where New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable citizens are the ones without a place to put their head. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThese are the kinds of policies that a Government that is out of touch will run\u2014a Government that is unaware or disinterested in the widening inequalities that we are finding in New Zealand society. Under this Government, inequalities are the worst that they have been in documented history in this country, since records of inequality have been kept, and that is a shameful thing. This Government is arrogantly persisting with policies that are exacerbating that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber we have a view that all people ought to be supported to make their best contribution. The Labour Government of the future wants to build a future for all. It wants an economy that works for all New Zealanders and makes sure that even those most disadvantaged in terms of their opportunities at birth are supported to make the most of their talents so that they can live in dignity like everybody else, can make their best contribution, can sleep well at night, can have the expectation that they will not have transience forced upon them, and can have opportunities in schooling to make the most of their natural talents. That will lead to a nation that we can all be proud of. That is what New Zealanders want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ECertainly, when I am in Dunedin I am hearing more and more stories of people who would like to be in secure accommodation but have been forced into private accommodation that is inadequate. I personally have been to visit a flat that I once lived in as a student that is now occupied by a large family with grandchildren in it, who are living in appalling conditions. The conditions of that flat were not flash when I was living there as a student approximately 20 years ago, and they have deteriorated since then. It has got to a state where no children ought to live there, where children ought not to be brought up there because the conditions of that house are cold and damp. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea57da0fb69445ca17cae21256e1bab\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: You left it in that state.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215232f9b94e74ce2aa951f2f82c28c0d\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That coldness and dampness\u2014I mean, the Minister of Defence, Minister Coleman, over there may think it is a joke. He laughs about this, but these are children who are running around with runny noses in the middle of winter and living in a cold damp home who may develop preventable respiratory illnesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThese are problems that we know how to fix, but they seem to be not a priority for this Government. It seems much more interested in doing those kinds of deals\u2014the likes of Skycity, Chorus coming up probably, and some corporate welfare out to Rio Tinto\u2014that are targeted at supporting a few. Are they transparent? No, they are not. Instead, they are deals that are supporting a few, when we see so many New Zealanders suffering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00227af1887491574d83bdaf0c2d39dd9a87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227af1887491574d83bdaf0c2d39dd9a87\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a544200a72e4455e8581d4b7a3ab0063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a544200a72e4455e8581d4b7a3ab0063\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think it is far too early for that. I am just looking to see who has not had a call, and I see that the honourable member Sue Moroney has not had a call, and she has been seeking one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00225a8cbc42e223455fa98249f52b33d0bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a8cbc42e223455fa98249f52b33d0bc\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do want to take the opportunity to speak to Part 2 and, in particular, to two excellent Supplementary Order Papers that have been put forward in the names of Phil Twyford and Annette King. I will start with Supplementary Order Paper 396, which has been put forward in the name of Phil Twyford, because this is an issue that is very close to my heart. It is the issue of ensuring in this Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill that reviewable tenancies cannot be covered and applied to those over 65, the disabled, and those with school-age children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI will start by talking about the school-age children because, in my experience in visiting schools, one of the first things that teachers will tell you is the difficulty they have in actually educating children who are always on the move, those children who are from transient backgrounds and transient families. It does not matter how many times the teachers are chastised about national standards by that Government\u2014it does not matter how many times the nanny State opposite tries to browbeat teachers about national standards\u2014for children who are constantly on the move there is no way that any teacher is going to be able to get them to achieve a national standard. When children move from school to school their ability to actually be in a secure educational environment is severely compromised. And here is this Government adding to that by compromising the security of their housing, by compromising the security of that most fundamental social need: having a decent roof over their heads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThat is what I cannot understand with this Government, because it constantly tries to sound like it is concerned about vulnerable children. Here is its chance. Here is its chance to prove it. Prove with your vote, Dr Smith, that the most vulnerable of our children, those who are often in State housing tenancy situations, are actually the children who need security. They are the children who need your help, Minister. They do not need a further impediment put in their way to having a good secure lifestyle and, therefore, having the ability to know that they are going to be able to continue to go to their local neighbourhood school because the home they live in is the one that is going to continue to be the home they live in. That is what I find so objectionable about Part 2. There is no attempt by the Government to give those children that security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister has tried to indicate that he will ensure that Housing New Zealand Corporation does not move on families with school-age children, but let us put the money where the mouth is, Minister, and vote in favour of Phil Twyford\u2019s excellent Supplementary Order Paper, which would make sure that there was a legislative protection and security for these children. Anything else is just weasel words. Let us be clear about that. Anything less than voting for this Supplementary Order Paper is just paying lip-service to a commitment to vulnerable children. So here is where the Government can actually make its commitment clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EBut I also challenge the Government to make clear its commitment to those over the age of 65 and to the large number of people who will live with disabilities on a day-to-day basis, who also need some security of tenure. If you think about people with disabilities, often these homes have been renovated by the State, by the taxpayer, to cater for the particular disability in mind. If there has been that commitment from the taxpayer to renovate that house in order to suit the person with the disability, then, surely, the Minister could give a legislative commitment to those people that they will have some security of tenure in their own homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI think that this part of the bill is the part that has the most damage in it. It is the part that also has the most opportunity in it, and I want to speak briefly to that because that is the subject of Annette King\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. It is the idea that social housing providers, some of the non-governmental organisation operators in this field, should participate and that they should be taking over some of the Government\u2019s responsibility. Let us be clear. That is what it is. This bill actually says they should be taking over the responsibility that has formerly been that of the State. So we should call it what it is. Certainly, on this side of the Chamber we know that these non-governmental organisations would be excellent social housing providers, because they are already. We would want them to be providing social housing in addition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022deb4cb00ec2243a5bd7618352ef965ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deb4cb00ec2243a5bd7618352ef965ed\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002272cd489e91824f4d837602cd0cb7da15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272cd489e91824f4d837602cd0cb7da15\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am looking\u2014I am looking. I am just trying to be even\u2014to see who has had some calls. Sue Moroney has had only one call, so I am going to call her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00225668e9278b034570b8bdf7815b1c6702\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225668e9278b034570b8bdf7815b1c6702\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, because I was in the midst of a really important part when the Government tried to shut this debate down because those members do not want to talk about Part 2 of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, which is around the idea that very, very good and well-meaning non-governmental organisations are being asked to take over the responsibility of the State. On this side of the Chamber we believe in those organisations having the ability to add to the State\u2019s responsibility, but not to replace it. That is our concern with this part of the bill. We know that those organisations are very, very good at what they do. But here is what the problem is. I talked about this a little bit in my Part 1 debate. Actually, the main problem is that there is not enough housing\u2014there is not enough housing stock. Until the Government comes face to face with that and admits what the actual problem is, and not what the pretend problem is, then it will not make headway in this area. It just will not make headway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo here is my concern, and I am going to describe it in terms of a very similar situation that has rolled out in the past in the health area. We have seen it happen before. I am going to talk about rest homes in particular. Very, very well-meaning organisations, mostly religious and welfare organisations, took over the running of rest home services that were, at that time, the purview of the State. The State primarily operated those services for our most vulnerable elderly. Then very well-meaning non-governmental organisations\u2014as I said before, mostly religious and welfare organisations\u2014took over the running, and took over the job of the State in that role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThat worked out OK\u2014actually, pretty well\u2014for 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 years, but less than two decades later what we actually found was that now those rest homes have been almost all onsold to corporations in the private sector. It was not because those non-governmental organisations had decided that that is what they wanted to do from the outset\u2014not at all. In fact, it was quite the reverse to that. They really wanted to offer the very best service in aged care. But what they found was that they were not able to do that in the way that they felt comfortable and good about. It was not the sort of service that they could feel was what they went into it for. So it was privatised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThat is what I see as being the slippery slope with housing. Well-intentioned, very experienced non-governmental organisations, I think, under the sort of Government we have in place at the moment, will find that they are completely under-resourced to do the job to their high standards, and may then find that they end up offloading those properties on to the private sector. That would be an absolute travesty, because what we would then find is that our most vulnerable citizens will be at the mercy of large corporations and private landlords, and is not that a situation that we already suffer from in this country? It is not the pathway forward. It is not the way to resolve housing problems for our most vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ECan I put it in the context of being one of the most fundamental social rights in this country, which is that every New Zealand citizen should have the right to have adequate housing, to have a good and adequate roof over their heads. We know that when that does not happen our whole country suffers. It is all very well for the Government to congratulate itself, week in and week out, as it tends to do, on putting more and more resources into preventing rheumatic fever and the outcomes of children having got rheumatic fever. But would it not be so much better if, instead of actually dealing with the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, this Government understood the importance of adequate and safe housing to actually preventing children from getting that dreadful Third World disease in the first place? Is not that the sort of country that we should be aiming for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI know that on this side of the Chamber it is. The vision that Labour has is that we want to ensure that every family has adequate housing, so that we are not talking about\u2014as the Government seems to pride itself on\u2014dealing with the outcome of Third World - country diseases. How hopeless is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5d8c561461a46d9ac1e4472a6deea96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5d8c561461a46d9ac1e4472a6deea96\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00229e6440aa020c4c16a7e199594646b28e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e6440aa020c4c16a7e199594646b28e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I am going to call a spokesman for the area, and of course it is the honourable member Philip Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022b866fd0f6ec444dd8aad7e632bcc370d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b866fd0f6ec444dd8aad7e632bcc370d\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E It is only you and my mother who call me that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab5c6dbcedc426186ea1abd5acc9c27\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What? Philip Stoner Twyford?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214701ef3d83c469dbea7c4796eaab079\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Philip, as opposed to Phil. I want to make some comments about the extension of the income-related rents subsidy to community housing organisations. We saw the Minister of Housing get up a little while ago and, in a great sort of gotcha moment, challenge Labour to say whether it supported these provisions, and so on. Well, it is true there is a lot of animosity on this issue. We are deeply opposed to the extension of insecurity of tenure to State housing tenants. There are other elements of this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, that we are utterly opposed to. It is no secret and it should be no mystery, Minister, that Labour wants to see a greater role for community housing organisations. I want to pay tribute to the Hon Maryan Street and the progress that she made as housing Minister in opening up that policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI am quite happy to acknowledge and salute the policy progress that the Hon Nick Smith has made so far in this portfolio in terms of opening up space for community housing NGOs to play a greater role in the provision of State housing. We agree with that. There is no controversy. There is no mystery there. We are very aware that the community housing NGOs do some fantastic work and have the potential to do a lot more. In west Auckland, the community that I represent, VisionWest Community Trust and Monte Cecilia Housing Trust both do fantastic work, amongst other areas, on the provision of emergency housing. That work is funded by the Government and it is vitally needed\u2014in fact, we need more of it. There are a number of community housing organisations that do really great work with high-needs tenants, providing services that sit alongside the provision of housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to see housing associations and non-profit entities that deliver affordable rental housing become part of the scene in New Zealand, like they are in a number of other jurisdictions overseas. We support the extension of the income-related rent subsidy. We support the work of the Social Housing Unit. But the question that we have in this debate is whether, in fact, the rhetoric about growing the community housing sector is based on a genuine and deep commitment to the empowerment of that community sector. As Campbell Roberts from the Salvation Army has pointed out, the Government, in spite of all its rhetoric, has committed only $27 million over 4 years to the community housing sector. As Campbell Roberts said, that is simply not credible. That does rather undermine the Minister of Housing\u2019s case that this is his great flagship proposal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe suspicion that we have on this side of the Chamber is that in devolving both housing stock and the subsidy, National is simply seeking to carve back the role, the capability, of Housing New Zealand to be a strong Government-delivered provider of income-related social rental housing; that National has never believed in Housing New Zealand; and that it sees Housing New Zealand as some kind of millstone around its neck. The fact that National has squeezed Housing New Zealand as some kind of cash cow over the last few years is a disgrace when we are in the middle of a housing crisis. All of those things make us on the Labour benches deeply suspicious about whether the Government genuinely wants to empower the community housing sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere are provisions in this bill that I think underline that concern. New sections 175 to 177 inserted by clause 19 of the bill contain what have to be considered, I think, fairly Draconian powers of intervention. Changes have been made as a result of the Social Services Committee deliberations. If a housing NGO is in receipt of the income-related rent subsidy, there is a certain level of accountability provisions. If it receives housing stock from Housing New Zealand, then it gets the full monty. That basically gives the Minister the power to sack the boards of those organisations. That is a pretty significant power of intervention. For all the Minister\u2019s rhetoric about wanting to support the community housing sector, I question whether or not his vision is for anything other than this so-called contestable market in which housing organisations are competing for tenants and subsidies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00222dea62d222bf47cf876e52de9fe11245\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dea62d222bf47cf876e52de9fe11245\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to call the honourable member Moana Mackey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfdfe3e4ae1043d49b13e467d956e865\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Chair!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00225a7301d0e5494bab865eb81fa86d9349\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a7301d0e5494bab865eb81fa86d9349\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E No need to sound so disappointed, Mrs King. I am sure your chance will come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to talk, under Part 2, to section 70, in new Part 7 of the bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. New section 70 is the purpose of this part of the bill, which talks about better utilisation of the community housing sector. Under new subsection (2)(b), it says the role is to \u201Calign Housing New Zealand Corporation\u2019s role to the provision of social housing in a multiple-provider environment:\u201D, and new subsection (2)(c) says it is to \u201Cfacilitate the growth of the community housing sector by enabling the extension, on terms and conditions set by the joint Ministers, of an income-related rent subsidy to registered community housing providers and an income-related rent to their tenants:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have already had a number of people discussing the fact that the funding that goes with this bill will go nowhere near doing what the bill professes to be trying to achieve. I want to talk, really, about what is not in this bill, which is any kind of strategy or any kind of attempt to get the best use out of the community organisations that we already have, rather than doing what this bill does, which is simply asking them to step in and do the job that Housing New Zealand and the State are pulling away from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhen the Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group report, from which much of this part of the bill came, was released, again another one of the strong messages from the community housing sector was: \u201CWe don\u2019t want to do your job for you. Do not use this excuse to reduce the role of the State in social housing. Do what, in fact, the bill, new subsection 2(b) here, says\u201D\u2014which is aligning Housing New Zealand far better with the community housing sector, in terms of the provision of social housing. But the advisory group said very clearly: \u201CWe want to do that in partnership with you. We don\u2019t want to end up doing your job for you because you no longer want to properly fund social housing in New Zealand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis is extremely apparent when you look at the community housing providers that the Minister himself has mentioned and some of the other big players in this area\u2014the New Zealand Housing Foundation, Habitat for Humanity, and a number of housing trusts around the country. The specialist qualities and skills of these organisations is not the provision of social housing; it is the provision of first home owners\u2019 affordable housing. Yet here we see a purpose in Part 2 of this bill that is essentially taking these community housing providers and saying that if you want to get any kind of Government money, you actually have to move into social housing. Your bread and butter stuff, the stuff that is desperately needed in our cities, particularly in Auckland\u2014affordable first home ownership\u2014is the stuff the New Zealand Housing Foundation has been doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat is the model upon which Labour\u2019s KiwiBuild policy was based, because it works. It is working right now. You have these mixed communities of private home ownership, affordable first home ownership through a range of different mechanisms, and then social housing that is provided by the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, the Mental Health Foundation, and a number of different organisations all coming together, with the New Zealand Housing Foundation coordinating it all, to build a community\u2014not to build a suburb but to build a community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is a model that works particularly well, but, unfortunately, it is a model that is being seriously undermined by Part 2 of this bill, because those community housing organisations, if we were to use them, get the most value out of what they do, we would not be asking them to do social housing, apart from the few that are already in that space. Those that are working in that space do a very good job, but it is very small scale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhere there is real potential is where you have these community housing trusts, which are actually relatively quite sizable for New Zealand, that are operating at such a scale already that if we were to work with them on affordable first home ownership and then trust them to do what the New Zealand Housing Foundation has done, which is to then partner with other community housing organisations to provide social housing, then you would get that spectrum of housing need exactly right. You would have the bulk of the community housing trusts providing affordable homeownership, dealing in that area. You then have those organisations that provide wraparound services or specialised services, such as the Salvation Army working with the elderly and the Mental Health Foundation working with mental health patients. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThen you come down to Housing New Zealand, which really does deal with poor families, families on low incomes, but then it is able to pass on to those providers that provide wraparound support the tenants to whom it really does not offer an adequate service. Housing New Zealand cannot provide specialist mental health services, specialist services for people who were formerly homeless, or specialist services for young people. In fact, Housing New Zealand cannot house people under a certain age. That is really where you would get the best out of all the different organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u00223c1880cd68c242adbcda08e26a30cf2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c1880cd68c242adbcda08e26a30cf2f\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c22cf1ba6f3f413fbfe88754a7db2f46\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000509\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 396 in the name of Phil Twyford to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 19 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223daf89fc2c4f453b92261d8edca86c4e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000510\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 398 in the name of Phil Twyford to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 19 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b85d74034ee4055a400ffd49ccc117d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000511\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 to clause 19 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000512\u0022\u003Ein clause 19, new section 86, after subsection (1), insert:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000513\u0022\u003E\u201C(1A)\tIf a power has been delegated to the Corporation under subsection (1), the Corporation may, with the consent of HNZ, subdelegate that power to an employee of the Corporation or of HNZ\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000514\u0022\u003Ein clause 19, new section 178G(2), after \u201Cmay\u201D insert \u201Cin accordance with section 41 of the State Sector Act 1988\u201D. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fdc449d1406d441dbe54fd7a7995fff9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000515\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 397 in the name of the Hon Annette King to clause 17 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b4386c03eb4d47b4812fdff2661cae37\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa92cbfe1ff341a1a50cd83185c798ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa92cbfe1ff341a1a50cd83185c798ea\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to an amendment in the name of the honourable member Philip Twyford. It is an amendment to clause 19 deleting new section 115A. That is set out on Supplementary Order Paper 398. However, it is identical to an amendment already agreed to. Therefore, the amendment to clause 19 deleting new section 127(2)(b), set out on Supplementary Order Paper 398, is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the remaining amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 398 in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 19 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022978844de61364f8eb372d774fb2d3864\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa7f4d55056045988a5b6ba2738a5d30\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e96343acccf46efac722c220252ed64\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000519\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith and the following amendment to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 to schedule 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000520\u0022\u003Ein Schedule 1, item relating to section 61EA of the Social Security Act 1964, in new subsection (2A), replace \u201Cincome-related rent, and\u201D with \u201Cand\u201D. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf2af81eab564063a557d530482d63b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226bda3f06f8a244559ad936b3c258dbaf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002217662e7044af471ba079af2b9e701580\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000522\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e6937c6d4e134474a7edbd58e1c7cb9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278a3e52808b1422c928f35711ebb836a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002208ffbb5eb895426c955bff746b8c9a83\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00221889c351d57b403b94925bfa296354ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221889c351d57b403b94925bfa296354ab\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to speak to clause 1, which is the title of this piece of legislation. It is called the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. It could more properly be called the \u201CStrip Back Housing New Zealand Bill\u201D, because that is what it does. It takes income-related rent subsidies and moves them with a very small quantum of money across to the third sector\u2014across to the civil society organisations that are committed to social housing. It moves the needs assessment process from Housing New Zealand to the Ministry of Social Development. Not only does some money go out of Housing New Zealand and into the third sector\u2014which we would not object to were it not for the full implications of that, which I will make plainer in a moment\u2014but it removes the needs assessment function. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ENo longer do people who need housing get to go to Housing New Zealand, to people who have been dealing with housing needs for a very long time, for a needs assessment. No, they go to the Ministry of Social Development. So what does that leave Housing New Zealand with? Well, under this Government it leaves Housing New Zealand with a diminishing stock of State and social housing, with fewer responsibilities than it had previously, and as a hollow shell of a thing, which could easily be run over in future years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill could also be called the \u201CDistance Government from Responsibility for Social Housing Bill\u201D. This is where the Government decides it wants to ease itself out of the provision of social housing, ease itself out of the responsibility of providing housing for our most needy, and to, further down the track, I dare say, absolve itself of this responsibility altogether. This could also be called the \u201CDissolve Housing New Zealand Bill\u201D, because this, again, is the moment when Housing New Zealand ceases to have the mandate it has had for so long\u2014well, it diminishes that mandate. It does not cease to have it in totality, but it ceases to have the extent of the mandate that it had previously. This is something that we on this side of the Chamber object to profoundly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill almost could sound anodyne. Unfortunately, it is not. It is anything but. It requires Housing New Zealand to divest itself of some very critical functions that it had previously. It provides the grounds for reviewable tenancies. In other words, any tenant in any State house\u2014it does not matter whether they are elderly or disabled or a family with young children\u2014may have their tenancy reviewed at any time. The Minister of Housing predicts that there might be 1,000 of those in the first year. I predict that there will be many more reviews than that if this Government is re-elected next year and if it is allowed to continue with this despicable policy. This is no more than a Government washing its hands over time in a gradual way so that people will not notice so that only those who are the least able to protest will be the ones who feel the brunt of this policy, and the Government will proceed to wash its hands of the responsibility for providing social housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill could also be called the \u201CPunish the Poor Bill\u201D\u2014the \u201CPunish the Poor Bill\u201D\u2014because it takes away the security that the poor in this country who need the support of the State not just for a time but perhaps for quite a long period in their lives through one reason or another\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf0b12e9dcd64fe390e34dc361ea67ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf0b12e9dcd64fe390e34dc361ea67ae\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I guess it is axiomatic that the titles of bills like this are somewhat euphemistic, but the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill does not really do it justice. Anyone listening to this debate will know by now that Labour members feel very strongly about the changes in this bill, and that we protest what we see as a running down, a winding back, and a dividing up and handing around of the parts of a much-diminished Housing New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EYou can ask why this is important. It is important because for generations in this country, people have believed that it is a core responsibility of the State to put a decent roof over the heads of people who cannot afford to buy their own home or who cannot even afford decent rental accommodation. It is one of the institutions built up by our forebears with the express purpose of giving every child in this country the best possible start in life, no matter what side of town they grow up on or what their parents do for a living. It is not perfect by any means, but we believe on this side of the Chamber that in the 21st century it is still a vital role for the Government to not only ensure the funding of but also deliver State and social housing as a key way that we can level the playing field for all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIf there is one lesson from the disastrous decade of the 1990s, it is that when the State withdraws from housing policy and from the provision of housing and focuses simply on incomes policy, it is an utter disaster. The policy of market rents in the 1990s had terribly damaging social consequences for a whole generation of the children of the poor in this country, and we are still dealing with the consequences. A State house is not just a temporary roof over someone\u2019s head in a time of need; it is a place to call home for people who cannot afford to buy and own their own home. And in the current market there are many, many people who, a generation ago, should naturally have expected that, being unable to buy their own home and to afford that, they could have had the security and the safety of a State house. But because successive National Governments have wound down and sold off the housing stock, we have a pitifully small social housing stock in this country compared with other countries that we usually compare ourselves with. Four percent of the population have a roof over their heads from State or social housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe reason that we oppose this bill so strongly is that we believe, contrary to the Minister of Housing\u2019s explanation that he is simply trying to bring in community housing providers, that this is, in fact, part of a systematic pattern of cutting back, winding down, and dismembering Housing New Zealand, and we protest that very strongly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI do not know what would be a suitable name\u2014the \u201CWinding Down of Housing New Zealand Bill\u201D or the \u201CFinal Solution for Housing New Zealand Thanks to the National Party Bill\u201D. It is not an exaggeration to say that this is the end of Housing New Zealand as we know it, and maybe that is a better title for this bill. It is a direct threat to the very existence of Housing New Zealand as a Government-delivered vehicle for social housing for people who cannot afford to either rent quality housing or own their own home. That is, in a nutshell, why we are so strongly against this bill. It is not because we are opposed to community housing organisations having more involvement or having access to the income-related rent subsidy, or, in fact, having housing stock transferred across to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe do not believe that the intent of this Minister in this bill is a bigger, stronger, better State and social housing sector. In fact, we believe that it is quite the opposite. If you put this bill and the Minister\u2019s policies, the Government\u2019s policies, in context, then\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022755e9667bed34429a832257c8bc04f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022755e9667bed34429a832257c8bc04f1d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Annette King\u2014no competition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00227853359763634b69a62d9d1bf6c77667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227853359763634b69a62d9d1bf6c77667\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E No competition\u2014thank you, Mr Chairman. I am really disappointed that we have had no opportunity to have a response or any comment on Supplementary Order Paper 397, which I put forward. In fact, I did not have the opportunity to raise it again with the Minister of Housing. He did not respond to the Supplementary Order Paper that I put forward, which asked for the Government to consider local government to be considered a community housing provider. So I want to call this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, the \u201CLock Out Local Government Bill\u201D. What we were asking for was for the biggest provider of social housing in New Zealand, local government\u2014in fact, the Christchurch and Wellington city councils\u2014to be considered, just considered, as social housing providers under the definition in this bill. The Minister did not address that question at all, and I think it is a terrible lost opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the Government has said is that it recognised that maintaining financial viability is an issue for all social housing providers. The council here in Wellington has adopted a very conservative rental policy approach to ensure that rental housing is affordable for those who live in it. By doing that, by keeping the rents at a reasonable level, it is actually saving the Government millions of dollars on the accommodation supplement, because if it was to be charging the sorts of rents that the others can charge, then the tenants could go straight to the taxpayer and ask for an accommodation supplement. So what local government has been doing is holding the prices down to make it affordable for central government, thereby saving the taxpayer from having to pay out an accommodation supplement, which the Minister himself said was over $2 billion a year. It is a huge amount of money, much of it going to landlords to provide rental accommodation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that this was a great opportunity to enable local government to be considered as a social housing provider. We lost that opportunity, and I think we need to rename the bill. There will be many local governments around New Zealand disappointed that it could not even get a mention\u2014a peep, a squeak\u2014out of the Minister. Even though he could get overexcited about everything else, he could not raise his voice to say: \u201CNo, no, we don\u2019t agree with that for these reasons.\u201D I would have accepted that, but we got absolutely nothing from him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI also think that we ought to change the name to reflect the fact that it is now going to have the assessments done by the Ministry of Social Development. We do not have any particular difficulty with that, but I do think it was an opportunity to look at the issues that arise from it. One that worries me is whether the Ministry of Social Development will have the resources to be able to provide the assessments for housing. Not every person who is in a State house or who is assessed for housing is actually on a benefit, so the number of people going to the Ministry of Social Development to be assessed as being eligible for housing is going to be more than the number of people that it deals with now. We had no response. So maybe it ought to be called the \u201CNo Response Bill\u201D because we were not told. We already know that the Ministry of Social Development is very stretched now, and we were not told whether it has the resource to undertake this role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI do not think the ministry does a bad job; in fact, people would like to be able to go to one place. But I think that there ought to be assurances given because, goodness me, we have seen changes made to Housing New Zealand that were going to provide a far better service for tenants, only to find that the greater, better, faster, more convenient\u2014or whatever it was\u2014service meant that the doors of Housing New Zealand were closed. The \u201Cbetter service\u201D actually meant that the doors of Housing New Zealand offices were closed to the public. Well, that is a great way to give better service, is it not? You say: \u201CWe\u2019re giving you fantastic service, because no one\u2019s coming through the door.\u201D Well, nobody could get through the door. Interestingly enough, not even the Prime Minister or the Minister for Social Development could get through the door of a Housing New Zealand office, because the door was locked and, even though they knocked on it, nobody came to open it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo, you see, the changes that this Government has made already when it comes to providing better services for tenants have been an abysmal failure. They have not improved the services for tenants. In fact, people sit for hours on a telephone line, waiting for someone to answer. Then they get somebody that is not a person, who says that they have to ring back, and so on and so on. So I think that we ought to have had an answer to that part of our questioning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe were also told that the Ministry of Social Development already does not tell all the people who come to it their entitlements\u2014what entitlements are available to them\u2014so we want to make sure that whoever is going to undertake this role is going to inform the people coming through the ministry\u2019s doors of their entitlements and what they are able to have. These are some of the questions that we might have got answered if the Minister had taken a call on them, rather than getting on his feet to rant and rave about how wonderful he is as a Minister of Housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill has a number of things that we would support, but it also has many things in it that are going to make social housing worse for New Zealanders. There is a fundamental issue here that this Government constantly overlooks, which is that the people who need social housing are the people who are already the most disadvantaged in New Zealand. What they do not need is an approach that is going to review their tenancies on a regular basis\u2014review their tenancies to see whether they are able to stay there. It is a lack of understanding that it is not just a house that they live in; it is their home. As a constituency member of Parliament, I know\u2014as I am sure many members here who are will know\u2014that people really value where they live. They want to bring their children up there. They want to send their children to schools in their communities. They want to be part of a community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBut the evilness of these reviewable tenancies is that those people can be told that they are down the road, and what really worries me is that there is no protection for the most\u2014most\u2014vulnerable: our older New Zealanders. Why did the Government not pick up Phil Twyford\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper and write it into the bill that the tenancies for the elderly and the disabled people in New Zealand would be protected? It is all about ideology. That is what this Government is driven by\u2014not by the needs of people, not about caring for the people who need the greatest help, but by what those members\u2019 ideology tells them about State housing and community housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a7307edeea4b7ea2067fe1130f5c66\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e7fd1cb6c0b4cafa5731f6043387e92\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely right, David Bennett\u2014no care or concern at all for those who need social housing. Those people are just a number to move around. They are just a number to go and interview and say: \u201CYou ought not to be in that house.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill is incorrectly named. It does not provide greater social housing reform\u2014and that is in the name of the bill, \u201Creform\u201D. That is a misnomer. This is not a reform; this is a march backwards, as Phil Goff said, to the Ruth Richardson era.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7a08f826d1a499ea66111e7feadcd48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7a08f826d1a499ea66111e7feadcd48\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call on clauses 1 and 2 of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill as it proceeds through its Committee stage under urgency. I really do want to contest again the title of this bill. What this bill really does is create uncertainty about one of the most basic social needs that people have, and that is the very human need to have a good roof over your head. The idea that this bill is somehow reforming social housing really is a misnomer. It is, in fact, actually taking away the very notion\u2014a proud tradition, I think, that was started by a Labour Government, in fact\u2014of social security. That is the idea that people, no matter what circumstances might befall them, would actually have the support of the State from the cradle to the grave. And \u201CFrom the cradle to the grave.\u201D is actually a statement that was made famous by Michael Joseph Savage. It was around the idea of social security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIn fact, probably one of the most demonstrable images of social security, and what Michael Joseph Savage meant when he talked about security from the cradle to the grave, was actually around housing. Those images of the first State houses and of furniture being moved into those first State houses have, in fact, been lost sight of by this Government. It does not seem to understand the importance of security in that phrase around social security. Here it is pushing through a piece of legislation under urgency that actually makes housing certainty so much less certain for some of the most vulnerable people in our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe thing that I find deeply offensive about this is that, yes, it is the elderly, it is the people who live with disabilities, and it is the children who will suffer as a result of not having security around this most fundamental of needs. So it is not just a little bit of reform, or what the name of this bill in brackets is\u2014\u201C(Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill.\u201D Why do Government members not say what they really mean? Why do they not say \u201CTenancy Insecurity\u201D? Why do they not say \u201CReviewable Tenancy\u201D, instead of hiding it and disguising it under this general phrase of \u201CTenancy Matters\u201D? It sounds quite benign, but, of course, as this side of the Chamber has very ably demonstrated through the course of this debate, it is not benign at all. It is an active act by the State to give insecurity of tenancy to those who are the most vulnerable in our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo if the Government was going to be up front about what this bill was about, then it would actually have the word \u201Cinsecurity\u201D in the title of this bill. It would have the word \u201Cvulnerability\u201D in the title of this bill. It would not dare use such a benign word as \u201Creform\u201D. Although I suppose that those of us who learnt to understand what the word \u201Creform\u201D meant back in the days of Ruth Richardson et al. probably do quiver whenever we see those words. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI think Bill Birch used it as well, actually. He was going to just reform the labour market. It was just this benign thing\u2014reform\u2014but, of course, what everyone came to understand about that was that it meant that their wages got cut. That is what reform meant. So in this context what reform means is that people\u2019s security of tenancy is cut. It means that they can no longer rely on knowing that their children will continue to be able to go to the local neighbourhood school, because, if their circumstances change, then they will be moved on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI want to just reiterate what my colleague Moana Mackey said. What about the good old relationship-style model of having Housing New Zealand staff who used to negotiate this through with people? That was instead of having an 0800 number that people can never get through to, where people\u2019s calls are never returned, and the faceless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022 data-id=\u00226a8346dc87d34010b17b4efdb9abbfcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a8346dc87d34010b17b4efdb9abbfcf\u0022\u003ECLAUDETTE HAUITI (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204859196160144baab7e7e63ca042519\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ad3436bcd0d4b9c9e3eea5863c1f378\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000555\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 390 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222f8d2142a89a4c18b8637d0bb2c561ef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260edee2def9b4cf3962f212336c74eae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225519d479299e42789b42bff0c0435a79\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000556\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000557\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d7163ae84d847a9a1bc88abc442eada\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022a70930ce885b498293c8d237d32bb3c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a70930ce885b498293c8d237d32bb3c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill be now read a third time. This bill was introduced as part of Budget 2013. It is about creating a far more innovative approach to the way in which we deliver social housing for New Zealanders, and also ensuring that it is the families that have the greatest need that have priority for the Government\u2019s large investment in housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to begin by thanking and acknowledging colleagues who have played a significant role in getting to this point: my predecessor, Phil Heatley, and the chair of the Social Services Committee, Sam Lotu-Iiga. I also want to acknowledge my Associate Minister of Housing, Paula Bennett, who has a huge role to play in ensuring that we get the Ministry of Social Development working more effectively with Housing New Zealand in the provision of housing. I also want to acknowledge the intellectual architects of this bill who were involved in the Home and Housed: A Vision for Social Housing in New Zealand report from 2009, who really have applied their minds to the question of how New Zealand can lift its game in this area. I also want to acknowledge the hard work of both the Parliamentary Counsel Office and the officials from a number of Government agencies, who have put an enormous amount of work into these reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThese are the biggest changes that have occurred in 75 years in the way in which the Government provides housing for our citizens with the greatest need. It is about three very significant changes. The first of those is saying that the Government does not need to own the bricks and mortar for it to be able to provide social housing and for the community housing sector to open up to have access to income-related rents. The second substantive reform is saying that it makes far more sense for the Ministry of Social Development\u2014which is already responsible for providing income support for families, which also administers the nearly $2 billion a year that is spent on the accommodation supplement, and which provides special-needs grants for people to be able to get bonds for housing\u2014to simultaneously be doing the assessment function associated with provision of social housing. The bill also includes the provisions for reviewable tenancies, which are absolutely crucial if our State housing stock is to be used by those with the highest need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do have to say that I was disappointed during the Committee stage by the contribution from the Opposition, which has on so many housing issues been so contradictory. For instance, Labour members have called for the Government to do something about increasing housing supply. We then took measures to increase housing supply, including a housing accord that was unanimously agreed to by Auckland Council, and members opposite have done everything they can to oppose and to try to stall the provision of that housing. I find it equally ironic around the issue of loan-to-value ratios from the Reserve Bank, where last year Labour was calling for the Reserve Bank to take such measures, and for the last 6 months has been doing everything it can to oppose them. Exactly the same has to apply to this social housing reform bill. I have heard speech after speech from Labour members saying that they support the community social housing sector, and yet they oppose the game-changing bill that this is, which will actually enable the community social housing sector to play a much expanded role in addressing the housing challenges that New Zealand faces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill does provide for the provision of a market in social housing. It enables the Government to partner with community housing providers by making those providers eligible to receive the income-related rent subsidy that, to date, has been available to only those people who live in a State house. That is a big change. The income-related rent subsidy currently stands at nearly $700 million per year, and it is a very significant change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn Budget 2013 we have made provision for $27 million for community housing providers, as well as the $139 million that we have put into the Social Housing Fund to give a kick-start to that social housing sector. A very important part of this Government\u2019s programmes is around better, smarter public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7c8f6d2aaaa4bd6a87fe64822ec6adc\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf8a02a4f80449a5b4311a7ed7948bf5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We have not had the fiscal room, as Annette King interjects, to spend like there is no tomorrow, as occurred in Labour\u2019s period in Government. Despite the huge economic boom that occurred during Labour\u2019s period, and despite pouring huge sums of money into the public sector, it was a lazy Government that did not actually apply its mind to how you could have better and smarter public services. That is why this bill transfers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022557575fe73114dca9e497e008463d1c0\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Show us something smarter that you\u2019ve done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022024ef6acbf664060afa30182770dde61\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member asks what is smarter about it. I will tell you what is smarter. It is smarter for my constituents in Nelson who have housing need to know that there is a single Government agency, the Ministry of Social Development, that will assess their need for housing. That is different from what occurs right now, where a person is pushed from pillar to post between Housing New Zealand and the Ministry of Social Development. As a taxpayer I challenge members opposite. How does it make sense to have public servants working in two different agencies dealing with the same challenge of social housing need? That is why I say that this reform makes such good sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill also provides for reviewable tenancies. That is all about ensuring that the $16 billion that New Zealand taxpayers have invested in social housing is for those families that have the greatest need. There was a very telling point in the Committee stage. Annette King challenged me when I pointed out that in my own constituency I have got a person who did once have high need and who is now the captain of a fishing vessel, earning over $100,000 a year, living in a State house. I said that that was wrong, and I said that that house should be available for a person with higher housing need. Annette King said: \u201CWell, what\u2019s the Government been doing over the last 4 or 5 years?\u201D. Well, actually, the Government has been developing this very reform bill, which will enable us to be able to give priority to families. The honest truth is that what members opposite are saying is that a person living in a State house and earning over $100,000 a year has got a legal right to stay in that house for ever while there are families with higher needs. That is why I say to members opposite: do not pretend that you have got a monopoly on caring. With that sort of social policy, members opposite should be honest that they are denying people with high needs access to the housing they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to challenge members opposite in terms of the commitment by this Government to ensuring that our State housing is safe and is healthy. This Government has insulated 60,000 State houses\u201460,000\u2014in 5 years. Labour did 4,000 in 9 years\u20144,000 in 9 years. How Labour members can get up in this House and lecture us that we do not care for State housing tenants defies belief. Equally, I look at the initiative I have announced in the last month\u2014a commitment of $30 million by this Government to fencing and safety on driveways. Most New Zealanders and members of this House probably do not recognise that we actually kill more toddlers on driveways than by the very high-profile issue of violence, which we must also address. When I hear members opposite giving these lectures that they alone care for children, I ask what they did for 9 years when there were three reports that identified the safety of children in State houses. They did zip. I say that they have no monopoly on caring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe very last point I want to make is that during the Committee stage, members opposite said that the $27 million that this Government had committed to supporting the community social housing sector was not enough. Well, I say to members opposite that that is $27 million more than they committed to the community housing sector in their 9 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill represents a bold and sensible reform consistent with the agenda of this Government of better public services, ensuring that our assets and income go to those most in need. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00228aaac4445ffd48a99ba383cbcd853a17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aaac4445ffd48a99ba383cbcd853a17\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E That Minister, Nick Smith, who has just resumed his seat, is the Minister who stayed on in his ministerial home for 6 weeks after he was sacked as a Minister. And what did he tell the public about why he stayed on? Because he did not want to interrupt his children\u2019s schooling. Is his a high-needs family? Are they a high-needs family? Apparently, it is OK for Mr Smith\u2019s family to stay in their house when he has lost his job. He had no right to stay in that house, and he did it because he did not want to interrupt his children\u2019s schooling. That is an outrageous double standard. It is typical National\u2014one standard for him and one standard for everybody else. He should be ashamed of himself. He did not want to disrupt his children\u2019s schooling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b75087a2da4eb5ab55fbc51b9e7a83\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531c84f6ae7e472da17a68b2d73d1771\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but he is quite happy for the children of State house families\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a2f423005e142e8aae537367f50291b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is a point of order. The Hon Dr Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1411857072845dba918f0875b467017\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It has been a long-held and strongly defended rule that the children of members of Parliament are not brought into the debate on contentious issues in this House. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e79f01b9be34995a0d173d91c27b337\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is exactly right, and we will have no more of this. I will ask the member to continue. Families are not to be brought in to this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647599817d594b1b93262d8229177d2b\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It is an outrageous double standard that this Minister will happily impose insecurity of tenure on thousands and thousands of the most vulnerable families in our country while he applies a totally different standard to himself. He should be ashamed of himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EReviewable tenancies is the reason that Labour is opposing this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. It will do incalculable damage to families in this country, who, quite frankly, deserve better. Expert submitters\u2014the most distinguished public health researchers and academics\u2014came along to the Social Services Committee and said that this Minister of Housing\u2019s policy, which gives himself the power to throw senior citizens out of their houses simply because there are not enough State houses, will pose a public health risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s own intellectual mentors, the Productivity Commission and the Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group, came along and explicitly advised not to implement reviewable tenancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c4b3ac0c08460597c5930a4877fa50\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Not true. Not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278f1e3d202fb42bf8700ee70706ac01a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: They said it is bad policy, and that it would be bad for people. I do know not which side of his mouth the Minister is talking out of when he says it is not true, but it is there in black and white in their discussions. They opposed reviewable tenancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd000444ab1422aa61d8569f78a63fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7ed3b280e2d417dbddb82c09ee88b14\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister stands up in this House and he says: \u201CNo, it is not true. These people are the intellectual architects of this policy.\u201D Well, that is a load of hogwash, and it is breathtaking arrogance from that Minister. He says that everybody else has got it wrong and he is right. He has given himself the power in this bill, in this bit of legislation, to throw 80-year-olds out of their houses because there are not enough houses. That is an utter disgrace. We will not support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELet us look at this bill in the context of National\u2019s stewardship of State housing policy. Let us look at National\u2019s record. National members came in and tightened the eligibility criteria for State houses. At the stroke of a pen they got rid of half the waiting list, and the upshot of that is that all over provincial New Zealand there are hundreds of empty State houses. Perfectly good State houses are lying empty because this National Government has tightened the eligibility criteria so tightly that people who are living in poverty still cannot get a State house in many parts of provincial New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat else has the Government done? It squeezed, for the first 3 years, as the Salvation Army report showed a few days ago, the financial lifeblood out of Housing New Zealand to pay for tax cuts for the rich. That is what it did. It sliced back the annual capital contribution by the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225eab02eb924413ba8dc69f3ae9e51e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: He knows that\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225089906175de40f68abf52c6c48f0f52\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The figures do not lie, Dr Smith. You slashed the Crown\u2019s capital contribution and you hiked the dividends so that over the first\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e0859dfda534554a15cb9a568a7afe0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee1557379084e398f2be81d92dac42e\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Not you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15478f802d94aad9e8f999f41fd97a2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you are bringing me into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf531c89a8734501849b334a7e73b629\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about the Minister and his Government. In the first 3 years under their stewardship they actually withdrew a net financial amount of $142 million, in contrast to the Labour Government, which for the 8 years or 9 years prior actually made a net positive contribution of nearly half a billion dollars. What sort of Government milks the State social housing agency in the height of a housing crisis? I will tell you. It is the same kind of Government that stands up, delivers its Budget, and announces a target of evicting 3,000 State house tenants. That is National for you. That speaks volumes about its attitude to State house tenants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat else has the Government done? In this bill it is shifting the eligibility assessment task to the Ministry of Social Development. It is extending the income-related rent subsidy to NGOs and, as we have said time and time again in this debate, Labour is not opposed to that. We are not opposed, in fact, to the Minister\u2019s intention to shift housing stock across to the community housing providers. That makes sense, but we will not support it in the context of a diminishing pie. This Minister has overseen a reduction in the number of State houses in the last 2 years. There are 700 fewer State houses, and whenever he is asked about it he blathers on about the Christchurch earthquake. Well, the reduction in State houses happened after the Christchurch earthquake. He cannot blame the Christchurch earthquake for the reduction in State housing stock. He sits there shaking his head, but he knows that it is true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe big lesson from the devolution of social services over the last two or three decades has been that if the funding does not follow the devolution of services and assets, then those services become unsustainable, the providers of those services get run ragged and constantly have to come back to the Government with a begging bowl, and it is the consumers, the recipients of those services, who suffer. We predict that that is what will happen under this National Government\u2019s plan to run down, to wind back, Housing New Zealand, and to flick off 20 percent of the stock without a significant financial commitment to maintaining that stock. That is the track record of National, and we predict that it will happen again in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s vision is for a contestable market for social housing. What kind of planet is he on? We are talking about putting a roof over the heads of the most vulnerable people in New Zealand, and he wants to set up a contestable market where Housing New Zealand competes with the Salvation Army for tenants and subsidies. What absolute lunacy. Why would we think that National would do anything different? It has run down Housing New Zealand. It has used it as a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a7f59b7a2f40deb9a3cbf71dd87a77\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c7e8d2a29c4aea8a3a3398fe5eb792\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister denies it, but the figures do not lie. The Minister has made a net financial withdrawal from Housing New Zealand of $142 million in the first 3 years. It is all there in black and white. The Government has used it as a cash cow to pay for its tax cuts. It has run down and reduced the number of State houses in the middle of a housing crisis, it has rewritten the eligibility criteria to cut the waiting list in half, and it has disenfranchised very poor people in provincial cities, who have been hived off into the private rental market where they are living in substandard and overcrowded conditions while State houses lie empty in the same streets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Government has committed $27 million over 4 years to the community housing sector, and, as the Salvation Army has pointed out, that is lacking in any kind of credibility in terms of backing that Minister\u2019s claim to be committed to resourcing and empowering the community housing sector. With this bill National is washing its hands of responsibility for State house tenants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis is just the latest chapter in National\u2019s hostility to social housing and State housing. We have seen it all the way through the decades. We saw it in the 1990s, when it sold off 13,000 State houses and bumped up rents to market-related rents. This bill, as speakers earlier in the evening have pointed out, is just the latest move by National to wash its hands of responsibility for putting a roof over the heads of some of the poorest and most disadvantaged New Zealanders. We think that is a disgrace. From that Minister particularly it shows a breathtaking double standard. Labour is utterly opposed to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b755590e4ebc4522af5f898046cf2561\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b755590e4ebc4522af5f898046cf2561\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E During the 2011 election campaign I was doing human hoardings in Panmure, at the Panmure roundabout, when a woman approached me. She asked me to go to her house, which I did that afternoon. There I saw a young woman who was 18, heavily pregnant, and living with her 2-year-old in the garage of this elderly woman\u2019s home,. Her 2-year-old was half-clothed and dishevelled and had a heart condition. This young woman was due in hospital the next day to have her second child, at 18. It is these people whom this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, and our Government hope to help. It is in this situation where we need to house people who are in the greatest need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThankfully, when she came out of hospital a week later, we had worked with Housing New Zealand to put her into a two-bedroom apartment with her two children. Yet the week before, in a street around the corner, I was at a place where a woman was living in a three-bedroom home. She had been there for over 40 years, her husband had passed away, and the kids had left home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThese two situations are the reason we need reviewable tenancies in this country. They are the reason we need to match the greatest need with the $16 billion in assets that the Minister of Housing has talked about. And Labour opposes it. Labour opposes putting those people who are in the greatest need into homes. This is not about ideology. This is not about productivity commissions. This is about real people in my electorate of Maungakiekie, whom I want to help. I am sure that members all around this Chamber have cases where they have seen people who are not being housed properly, whereas others are indefinitely in conditions, in homes, in which they do not need three bedrooms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ESo I support this Minister because he is hard-working, he is honest, and he is diligent. He has brought in a piece of legislation that will help the New Zealanders who are the most vulnerable. That is what this bill does. So for members opposite to even claim that this is about kicking out disabled and elderly people\u2014no, it is about reviewing their tenancies and making considered and informed decisions as to who in New Zealand has the highest needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0271e262a4b5c821c455d10bb344f\u0022\u003ELouisa Wall\u003C/span\u003E: Where are they going to go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ee7f999ef449cf9a24aa8d775280a9\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite asks where they are going to go. Well, there were one-bedroom apartments down the road that could quite easily have housed that elderly woman who has lived in a Housing New Zealand home for over 40 years. Labour members do not like the truth. They do not like the fact that this bill will actually help people. It is about housing those with the highest needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis bill also works closely with the community housing sector in order to provide for those in need. We know that the community housing sector does a far better job than Housing New Zealand does to work with the needs of the disabled, to work with the needs of the mentally ill, and to have the wraparound services. That is why we are committing, with the Minister, $27 million more than the members opposite ever did in 9 years of overseeing the Treasury benches. So I say that that measure also has a positive impact on those families most in need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say that the third part of this bill that makes a real difference is about transferring the services around housing to the Ministry of Social Development. It is better placed to make those assessments. It is better placed because it deals on a daily basis with these people who have these high needs. That is why the transfer of these services makes logical sense. Again, the Minister has laid out a very compelling case as to why the Ministry of Social Development can do that better than Housing New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI sum up by saying that this bill is about helping New Zealanders. It is not about ideologies. It is not about making personal, nasty attacks on members and their children in this House. It is about housing New Zealanders and it is about doing the best for those most in need and particularly for those vulnerable children. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcfdeee43d19477d9e098ae47b74d47b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcfdeee43d19477d9e098ae47b74d47b\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak to the third reading of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. I think that it is really important at this point, amongst all of the rhetoric coming from the Government claiming that this is really about helping those who are currently State house tenants and those who may be prospective tenants in the future, that we add a layer of context, really, to this debate. But we must always remember that behind all of the statistics we tend to throw around in this House are individuals and people with their own stories and their own situations. I utterly accept that the member on the other side of the House, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, just shared his own. But to what degree do we sometimes forget even the context in which those stories exist? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe must remember that only 5 percent\u20145 percent\u2014of our housing stock in New Zealand is State housing or community housing stock. That is an incredibly small proportion of housing stock. That is why currently in New Zealand 80 percent of the children who are living in poverty are not living in State or community houses\u201480 percent. A large number of the children whom the Government claims it is trying to protect do not actually currently live in those houses. That is not because they are being occupied by wealthy people who are unnecessarily taking State houses; it is simply because the demand is so high and because there are so many children currently living in poverty\u2014270,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister of Housing makes out, as he did in one of his speeches, that 4,000 people are currently paying market rents for State houses and says that that must be indicative of there being people in State housing when they do not need State housing, I think that neglects to acknowledge the fact that not everyone in a State house is there simply because of income issues. There are people who live in State houses because they simply cannot get a house in the private rental market, for a whole list of reasons. It may in the past have been the case that community housing would pick up that need\u2014for example, someone exiting prison, or someone with a range of issues that means it is hard for them to find a house in the private rental market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI constantly see cases through my electorate office based in central Auckland where individuals are coming in because they simply cannot find a house because, for instance, they have a child and no one wants to rent to someone who has a child. They are renting in a market that is so competitive now that that is the kind of basis on which a private landlord is discriminating against families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222996f93271e44bff84625f6c0741288f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s against the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8aa5162c68b47c19eca4cb2055452eb\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Sure, the Minister may claim it is against the law, but it is just like the 90-day job trial. There is a whole host of reasons why people can get sacked from a job without getting any explanation, and the same goes for being denied a house. It is not that they are told that they are not getting a house because they have a child; they just do not get a phone call back. They do not even get a look in. So I am sorry, Minister Collins, but this is the real world and this is the existence that some people are experiencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252396e1312fb435c83218a5f9ce17a1f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Then why don\u2019t you do something about it, Jacinda, instead of whining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022710c85398c614e14a6acac0690135afa\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What about\u2014the fact that there are sole parents? How evil of them\u2014for trying to raise their children on their own, and for merely existing. So that is the point we think we need to clearly make in this argument. Perhaps you are overstating this notion that there are people in our State houses who do not have those needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to raise is that there will certainly be examples of tenants who recognise that they are not in the right house. In fact, I had someone a little while ago now come in to see me at the office, where, yes, I am a dirty old list MP. They came to see me, not the electorate MP, for some particular reason. They came to see me. This particular young woman had been living in a State house with her parents and her sibling for many years. Her parents, tragically, died at a very close distance to one another in timing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESo there she was, a very young woman herself\u2014studying and now raising her sibling. She had a particular disability that made it hard for her to find steady employment. She recognised that she and her sibling did not require the large State house she was in any more, but it was in central Auckland. She had asked to go somewhere else, but the lack of State housing options meant that if she left that house, she would be sent to somewhere quite some distance away\u2014up to half an hour away from where she currently was. That meant losing every connection she had in that community. That meant being plucked from her church community, the only neighbourhood she had ever known, and all of her support networks, as a young woman now trying to raise a younger sibling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThat is really, I think, indicative of the issue here. National members try to make what they are saying sound reasonable and fair, but in reality reviewable tenancies in a market where there are just no houses available means that some of these individuals are just being chucked into a circumstance where finding housing is going to be very, very difficult, particularly in the area where I live and particularly in view of the fact that there were 697 fewer State houses last year because of this Government selling off State houses. I know that in central Auckland the Government is hocking them off wildly. In fact, there are a number of houses where the Government just refuses to keep any upkeep going because they are all earmarked for sale. So as much as the Minister talks about the standard of State housing, he is deliberately running down stock in the knowledge that the Government is simply going to sell it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe also know that there has been a significant reduction in capital contributions to State housing, and that is something that has been brought up by the Salvation Army. So yes, amongst all of this debate, yes, absolutely\u2014Labour could have done more to ensure that the quality of our State housing stock was kept up. Yes, there is no denying it. But there is also no denying the fact that when we came into office, National had sold 13,000 State houses\u201413,000 State houses. You can hardly blame Labour at that time for being vehemently focused on trying to renew our State housing stock, because there was a massive gap when we came into office at that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESo sure, the Government can talk about everything it has done on insulation\u2014fantastic; not denying that that was incredibly important\u2014but in doing so it refuses to acknowledge that in amongst all of that, it has been reducing the stock. It has been upgrading what we have got, but reducing the stock overall. So, again, the context in which we are debating this bill is a context in which actually we are simply dividing the pie amongst a larger number of people and the pie is getting smaller. That is why this idea of it simply being common sense to continually review tenancies refuses to acknowledge that actually the environment in which this Government is doing it means that people will be in very insecure, unstable situations as a consequence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIf the Minister claims that it is absolutely disgraceful to claim that this Government would throw out, for instance\u2014well, two groups that we can easily identify are going to probably be on fixed incomes: those with long-term disabilities, for instance, who are likely to be on a supported living payment, and, for instance, people who have retired and are now on a fixed income in their retirement. You can probably be pretty certain that the circumstances of those individuals are not going to change. If the Government is telling us that those individuals are unlikely to be subjected to this bill, why not put it into the bill? If it is ludicrous of us to even suggest it might happen to those individuals, why not put the safe clause into the legislation or just accept one of the Supplementary Order Papers that Labour has put forward. The fact that the Government has refused to do that but then tries to tell us that we are scaremongering says to me, why should we not raise that question? If the Government is so defensive about putting it into law, it is only right that we hold some suspicions over what its plans are in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ETwo larger elements of the bill have been debated at length. One is the idea that social housing be subject to income-related rents\u2014absolutely. We are pleased that that is now available. We have some concerns about the pressure that that will put on social housing providers, but we will keep a close watch on that. In terms of the second element\u2014the fact that the Ministry of Social Development will be providing the assessment, or overseeing the assessment regime\u2014yes, you can certainly make an argument that that provides some efficiencies. But we will always maintain that unless you put in place the infrastructure and support around Work and Income staff to do that job\u2014and anyone who has anything to do with their local Work and Income office will know the constraints that those staff are under\u2014and, second, as long as the ministry has the kind of leadership that denies individuals the dignity they deserve when interfacing with those services, we will continue to be very, very watchful of the role that the ministry plays in conducting these assessments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4384e302a9543d2b811761f4724aa9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4384e302a9543d2b811761f4724aa9e\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to make a reasonably short contribution on this legislation. We do not support the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill and will continue to vote against it. But there are some very interesting issues that have been raised around this legislation and just around the housing debate in general. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe met today with a number of leaders of the church community, and I understand they met with other political parties, as well, over the day. Housing was an issue that was raised by them and by us\u2014it is a major issue for the country\u2014and it was noted that it was very good that housing is a major issue across the political spectrum and across the community, the community sector, ordinary families, and the private sector. There is at least some advantage in the fact that we are all discussing the issues around housing and the complexity of the housing problem and the housing crisis that we have. Most agree that there is a housing crisis. We might disagree on the extent. I certainly understand that National has said over and over that it does not believe there is a crisis, but it certainly knows that there is a deficit in housing and that there is a real issue for those who are homeless and those who are the most vulnerable. So we have at least made some progress in the last little while on developing some kind of common understanding that at least housing is critical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWhere we have not reached any real consensus at all is on what to do about it. Unfortunately, this legislation is a really clear example of the political divide, because the primary purpose of this legislation is to prevent more people from getting access to social housing. That is what the reviewable tenancy process does. It is primarily designed to move people out of the existing social housing stock and into the arms of other organisations, which are not being properly funded and cannot cope with the influx. It is really unfortunate, the housing legislation that we debate, when we all agree that there is a housing issue, we all agree that vulnerable families who are in urgent need of housing are not getting it, we all agree that there is a deficit of housing at the affordable end of the market, and we all understand\u2014at least, I would imagine, if others have access to the facts\u2014that homeownership amongst the middle class is also declining. This is all publicly available information. Yet the one piece of legislation that we are debating is legislation that will reduce the security of the most vulnerable families in the very difficult housing environments that they have. It is a real tragedy that that is what we are spending our time on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe arguments for this legislation from the National members have been around the greatest need. There is the greatest need argument. There is also the market rents argument. We heard from Sam Lotu-Iiga about how social housing should be made available to those with the greatest need. You might agree with that as a general statement, but it depends on your definition of greatest need. If the intention is to squeeze more and more people out of social housing and for the Government to reduce its involvement in social housing, then the criteria for meeting this threshold of greatest need becomes tighter and tighter and tighter, so fewer and fewer people meet that threshold and have access. The words are all fine to use; the devil in these matters is always in the detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI think about a couple of cases that I have at the moment, which I am managing through my office in Dunedin. I mentioned in the second reading debate this case of a woman who has been working. She and her husband have been working very hard. They have two children, one of whom has a very severe disability. They take Child, Youth and Family kids, so they are fostering other children in order to assist those children and the State in taking care of children who are in State care. Her husband has a very severe fatal form of cancer and is no longer able to work. She has to care for her children and for her husband, and is no longer able to work. So their ability to access housing in the private market has now been completely constrained, and she does not meet the criteria for greatest need. She does not meet the criteria for greatest need. Sam Lotu-Iiga can stand up and say that this housing is available to those who have the greatest need. To her it is not. To her it is not, so she has to get intervention. She requires an MP to intervene on her behalf in order to try to get her further up the list so that, even if she does not meet the National Government\u2019s criteria of greatest need, she at least has some chance of getting into social housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ENow, of course, once this legislation passes, she may well get access to a State house, but she has no security of tenure. There is absolutely no way that she can be assured that she can raise her children and the children in State care whom she takes care of, and care for her husband towards the end of his life, with any sense of security. If, for example, her income changes slightly\u2014perhaps she gets a part-time job because things are going well\u2014then she could well be subject to a review and, therefore, to market rents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOne of the other parts of the detail, I guess, that the National Party members are failing to describe is this. They talk about how so many people who are renting State houses are paying market rents and say that this is a sign that these people are excessively wealthy and are not entitled, therefore, to any form of social assistance. Let us just remember that the market rents approach or calculation kicks in at about the level of New Zealand superannuation. For a single person that is about $350-odd a week, and for a married couple it is around $500 and a bit a week. At that point, when a married couple is earning a bit over $500 a week, they are subject to a market rent calculation by Housing New Zealand. They will not be entitled to an income-related rent subsidy. They will have to pay a market rent, according to Housing New Zealand, at that low-income threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThese families who are in desperate need, who are trying to find some stability in their lives, who are looking to social housing to provide that stability so they can get back on their feet a little bit\u2014when they do start to get back on their feet, they are penalised for doing OK. They are penalised for earning a little bit of extra income. They are penalised for getting a part-time job. They are penalised for having some sense of security. They are penalised for doing well enough\u2014perhaps they have recovered from a mental illness, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EActually, I have another case like this. It is a woman who is living in a two-bedroom State house with three children, and who is desperate to move. She is desperate to move into a bigger State home in the neighbourhood in which she has built some strong support. There are State houses in her neighbourhood, two streets away from where she lives now, that are on the market. They are three-bedroom State homes, they are on the market, and they are being sold. She is desperate to get into a bigger home so she can better take care of her family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EShe was told by Housing New Zealand that she did not qualify for this greatest need threshold because she does not have a mental illness. She is just managing to care for her children, settle herself in her community, and make sure her kids go to school. She is just managing to keep her head above water, and she is being punished for that because of the threshold of greatest need. If she was to go and get herself a part-time job in order to bring a little bit more income into her home so that she can take better care of her kids, she risks being subject to a market rent calculation that could mean that her rent rockets up and she would then be unable to afford to live in that State house. Not only that, she would also be subject to a reviewable tenancy by this Government that could see her lose her home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is the consequence of this legislation. These are the real cases, the real people whom this legislation will impose an enormous burden on. Those families who are just able to get by, who are doing as well as they can in the circumstances, who love their kids, who do everything they can to care for their kids, who are trying to find those little steps, those small steps, to get themselves into a better situation\u2014at every point where they try to improve they are punished by this Government for doing so. This legislation, with its reviewable tenancies, does exactly that all over again. It is a tragic piece of legislation. It will not help these families at all. It will squeeze more and more families out of housing, and will drive poverty and drive child poverty. This Government really does not care about that at all. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022074cbf3e559a4ba8a675e8a7ee92167b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022074cbf3e559a4ba8a675e8a7ee92167b\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise to take a short call on the third reading of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. I would like to congratulate the Minister of Housing on the work done on this social housing reform. Our social housing package is a key part of this National-led Government\u2019s promise to deliver better public services to the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI was sitting here listening to the debate earlier, and I have to react to one speech where I think Moana Mackey actually said we should do what Labour did for housing. Well, let me say no, thank you. For 9 years Labour had the Treasury benches. I would like to compare the work that we are doing in this National-led Government with what Labour did in the 9 years that it was in Government. No, thank you, we will not be following what Labour did for housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI listened to a lot of examples that different members have quoted. I too have an example. Last Friday I visited a constituent in a house where there are 19 people living in a three-bedroom home. Some people are living in the garage. A lot of the teenage children are living on the couches in the living room. There is a brother and sister-in-law who have four children living in a single room that is slightly wider than my outstretched arms. They have three single beds. There was not a lot of room to move. They are desperate to find a house, but there is not one for them. They are on the waiting list. I wish I could actually help them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EEarlier, the Minister gave an example of a man in his electorate. When he got the housing help he probably did need it, but now he is still living in a Housing New Zealand home when he is earning a lot of money. He is able to afford a home, while there are people in my electorate who are living in a single room\u2014a couple with four children. Each parent is sleeping on a single bed with one child each, and with a newborn baby who is less than 30 days old. That is a need. This bill is about helping people like that in the electorate that I am based in, Mt Albert, and getting them into a house because they are the people who are most in need. I commend this bill. This is a great bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc5300d056d34f69a720f808b3d7c80c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc5300d056d34f69a720f808b3d7c80c\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill is simply objectionable, and in some parts it is Draconian, in two fundamental ways. The first is its adopting of the policy of reviewable rentals based solely on the assessed ability of tenants to move into private accommodation, either rental or homeownership, when in the main population centres, especially Auckland and Christchurch, the cost of homes has exploded and the rents for rental properties, if they can be found, have rocketed out of control. The second way is by reducing the role and nature of Housing New Zealand and pushing rental housing responsibility on to community organisations, some of which clearly are not capable of fulfilling that role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ENot only are there very extensive powers of investigation of any tenant to see whether they are eligible for income-related housing but also several new clauses set up Housing New Zealand effectively as New Zealand\u2019s housing police and authorise Housing New Zealand to set aside the Privacy Act. Under this bill Housing New Zealand may by written notice require information from any person concerning housing assessment reviews, the only exceptions being in cases of genuine privilege and financial information such as financial transactions. That still leaves a lot of information that any person must provide, so that anyone can give most information they have about a Housing New Zealand tenant, as though they are second-class citizens in that respect, without fear of infringing important human rights as set out in the Privacy Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThis is typical of the Government\u2019s attitude to Housing New Zealand tenants\u2014second-class citizens. The offences are Draconian. They provide for imprisonment for up to 12 months or a fine not exceeding $5,000, or both. The only redeeming provisions in this Draconian part of the legislation are those relating to the code of conduct and to the role of the Privacy Commissioner, but these do not alter the fact that human rights are trampled by this bill. The Government\u2019s whole approach is wrong, and the bill will have to be repealed when possible because it attacks some of the most vulnerable people in the community\u2014those who cannot afford to buy a home in today\u2019s market or cannot afford the spiralling rents in the private rental market, especially, of course, in Auckland and in Christchurch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe basic problem is that people who are assessed as capable of obtaining private sector accommodation are in many, many cases not able to find alternative rental properties or, in fact, not able to pay exorbitant rents, in Christchurch or Auckland especially. I know from my personal experience in talking with people and seeing people who come to me in Christchurch that it is difficult to obtain alternative accommodation in Christchurch, that the rents are exorbitant, and that these people would have a real problem. National still has the gall to stand a candidate in the Christchurch East by-election while this obnoxious bill proceeds to enactment on a slender majority. Christchurch East will be the worst-affected electorate in this country by this thoughtless bill. As if the effects of the Canterbury earthquakes are not enough, this bill will be another blow for the many Housing New Zealand tenants in Christchurch, and in Christchurch East in particular, who are struggling to recover. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003ERather than provide more rental housing, the Government seeks to suppress demand by moving people out of State houses if Housing New Zealand assesses that they are financially able to do so. This is not by itself a satisfactory reason, and there is no adequate reason in principle or policy for that to be the only or main criteria for a policy that will force people to move. Despite the Government\u2019s claims that it will take a lenient approach, people will inevitably be nudged out of their homes\u2014effectively bullied out of their homes\u2014because the Government is unwilling to build more homes, and that is the real issue. This Government is, in fact, unwilling to meet the demand, and instead will artificially suppress demand, rather than meeting the housing needs of people who need it. There are good reasons for people, especially the elderly, to choose to remain in State house rentals, even if they are assessed as being able to move elsewhere when it is not necessarily the best option for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe constant threat of regular reviews will lead to significant social problems. Health, education, and personal security will suffer, and community well-being will suffer. All this stress, especially for elderly and other vulnerable people, cannot be done in the lenient way asserted by this Government. What is needed is a genuine social housing service\u2014not just buildings but a service to customers, who will pay market rents when they can afford them or income-related rents when they cannot. Those needs should be matched with the housing best suited to them, not just shunted out of the State system into the hands of others who may or may not be best suited for the purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe Government will transfer large sums of money to community housing organisations through subsidies to registered providers. These organisations will own the housing funded or gifted by the Government, and there will be no State asset in return. The provisions in this bill to deal with incompetent providers and with those that fail altogether are confused and inadequate\u2014not nearly good enough to justify the application of such huge amounts of public money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe most glaring omission is that the bill does not provide for local councils to be community providers at all, despite the Christchurch City Council, the council where I live, being the second-largest provider, after Housing New Zealand, and despite other councils such as those in Wellington, Auckland, and elsewhere having a long and well-proven record of excellence in social housing provision. The Government should actually be funding such councils with long-term, low-interest loans\u2014and that is New Zealand First\u2019s policy\u2014so that they can provide elderly persons\u2019 housing and public rental housing and also provide the many support services needed by a genuine housing service provider. As I have said, that is what is really needed here. And they can coordinate this with other council plans and services\u2014things this Government simply does not understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThis misguided bill actually proves that without any doubt. It is a bill with many risks: economic risks for the Government, social risks for our housing-stressed communities, and major risks for the health and well-being of thousands of Kiwis who are most at risk from a \u201Cdo not care\u201D attitude of an incompetent Government. This bill should not be enacted, for all of those reasons. It is, quite simply, misconceived. It does not build on the experience of the past; it sails out into an uncertain future with many risks\u2014far too many risks\u2014for this bill to be viable. This is an obnoxious bill, it is a bad piece of legislation, and it should simply not be enacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022213542ca7bd24f69a8223995d1e3a820\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022213542ca7bd24f69a8223995d1e3a820\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to stand to congratulate the Minister of Housing, Nick Smith, on introducing a number of aspects in this piece of legislation, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, that will see the improvement of the operation of the social housing and affordable housing sector right across New Zealand, involving both the Government and community housing providers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EBut there are two particular aspects that I would like to congratulate the Minister on. First of all, those who are genuinely in need will be helped by the State and these community housing providers during the duration of their need. That means that when households become self-sufficient, earning over $100,000, or when their state of health is such that they can move to the private sector, they are able to move on and open up the State house for someone else who is in line and needing a State house. Gone are the days when someone can sit in a State house for 30 or 40 years when their incomes have improved, the family has left home, and they can easily rent privately or, in fact, purchase their own home. We see that as part of a mutual obligation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIt is very interesting that Dr Nick Smith will oversee this year the last State house in New Zealand to be insulated that can be insulated. Although the Labour Party in 9 years in Government talked a lot, I believe, about how it supported State housing and State house tenants, it left tens of thousands of State houses uninsulated. That is quite unbelievable, is it not, that those members harp on about State housing and their love for the tenants, but Labour could not do something as simple as insulating a house. The cost is $3,000 or $4,000\u2014not a lot\u2014per house, but it was not prepared to do that. Nick Smith will see every State house in New Zealand insulated that can be insulated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe mutual obligation there is, of course, that he will stand firmly against those few State house tenants involved in gangs and cooking P in the kitchen. He will stand against those tenants. He will say: \u201CYou can\u2019t beat up the neighbours. You can\u2019t disturb the neighbours. You can\u2019t trade in illegal goods inside your State house.\u201D So there is a big tidy-up of the sector, and I must say that the large majority of State house tenants are grateful for those two things: first of all, that their houses are being insulated after all those years of living in the cold under the Labour Government, and, secondly, that those neighbours who do stir up trouble, those gangs that do cook P and that run up and down the streets beating up their neighbours, are being brought under control by Housing New Zealand. So I congratulate Nick Smith on the new reviewable tenancies, on upgrading those State houses, and on bringing those mutual obligations forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESecondly, I would like to congratulate the Minister, in supporting this bill, on the beginning of bringing in the community housing sector with some seriousness; forging the relationship, if you like, between Government and iwi and community housing organisations; and making sure that community housing organisations, their expertise, their assets, their cash, and their tenants are brought together with Housing New Zealand\u2019s assets, Housing New Zealand\u2019s expertise, and Housing New Zealand\u2019s tenants. So it is about forging that relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ELabour members talked a lot about that, but never passed income-related rents for the community housing sector in 9 years. Of course, now that we are doing that\u2014we are funding the community housing sector with income-related rents funding\u2014according to the Labour members it is not enough. Of course, zero was not enough when they were in Government for 9 years, and I am delighted that Nick Smith is actually walking the Labour members\u2019 talking. He is doing everything they waxed lyrical about for 9 years. He is going ahead and doing it. The Labour members have no solutions. They sat on their hands for 9 years. I congratulate Dr Nick Smith on all that he is doing in Nelson and right across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00220fed3d5d3b6f4f87a4eb5e66e9d0fd81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fed3d5d3b6f4f87a4eb5e66e9d0fd81\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Musical chairs\u2014it was a game that was fun, was not it, at birthday parties when we were growing up? That idea that you put a bunch of chairs out there, the music started, and when the music stopped, there was one less chair than there were party-goers, so someone dipped out. Then another chair was taken away, the music would start again, and on it would go. That is what this Government is doing with social housing. It is taking the chair away and making sure that there is less and less provision for higher and higher demand and need. That is what the Labour Party finds so offensive about this bill, the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt does not even aim to address the stripping out of capital funding that this Government has undertaken with Housing New Zealand. I think that through the course of the debate that we heard earlier, the Minister of Housing did not even refute the facts that the Salvation Army put before this country just last week. The facts were that the National-led Government has provided the Housing New Zealand Corporation with only $129 million in capital contributions in its first 3 years, and yet it required $271 million in dividends. That is a result of a net $142 million withdrawal of funding from the organisation. It is not just a withdrawal of funds; it is a withdrawal from the building of State houses and the replenishment and the increasing of the stock of social housing in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EUntil the Government gets to grips with that fact, then Sam Lotu-Iiga\u2019s young pregnant woman living in the garage has not got a hope. She is not going to actually get a decent roof over the head of her young 2-year-old, whom he described, never mind the forthcoming baby, because that Government is not doing anything to add to the social housing stock. So there was all the weeping and wailing, but although I am sure it was genuine\u2014because I am sure that when that woman dragged Sam Lotu-Iiga into that garage to see that situation, he genuinely felt horror at what he saw\u2014this is not the solution. This is not the solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIf there are people who have high incomes, who should no longer be in State houses, and who have other options to go to, then why is the Government not doing that good old-fashioned thing of actually getting the Housing New Zealand staff to negotiate with them, talk to them, and find something that is more suitable for their needs? That is what used to happen under Labour. That is back in the day, though, when you could actually talk to a real person from Housing New Zealand. That is back in the day before the Minister of Housing, who introduced this bill into the House, took the face of Housing New Zealand away and turned it into an 0800 number. Actually, that might have been from the member who has just resumed his seat, Phil Heatley. I am quite unfairly lambasting the current Minister for this. But this Government has now hidden Housing New Zealand behind a wall of phone banks. The 0800 number, which not only any average citizen cannot get through to and get an answer from, but I know that members opposite will be having the same problem as well, which is that even MPs\u2019 offices cannot get an answer from the 0800 number of Housing New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7ed0e180c8c4a94b6d7aaf26fc37d8b\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: The electorate MPs can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217f129b28a254c1fb8bb02012c4dae78\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, Judith Collins says that electorate MPs can. Well, she is wrong\u2014she is absolutely wrong about that. Electorate MPs and list MPs and councillors and New Zealanders are actually finding that their phone calls are not getting answered, and they are not able to get through to the person with the answer that they need. If Judith Collins does not accept that that is the reality, then she is just demonstrating over and over again how out of touch she is, and the entire National Government is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d289820971314b2ab844d97d7c83bdc5\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly out of touch!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1bf04344cf8490fa8b276b0e68ae533\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with what is going on. Well, those members are out of touch, and I think that that demonstrates it. Judith Collins thinks that the 0800 number is working perfectly well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223ce51fdbb644b0dab93064eab5b0dac\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb61a018293d41ad9a5b88ca070ebdda\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CIt is.\u201D, she says. Well, can all those New Zealanders who are listening to this debate please email Judith.Collins@parliament.govt.nz and tell her about the many occasions on which they have not got satisfaction from using the 0800 number, because she does not seem to know. She is completely out of touch with it. So the Government has hidden the Housing New Zealand that used to engage with tenants\u2014[Interruption] Oh look, Judith Collins is showing out of touch she is all over again. According to her, Judith.Collins@parliament.govt.nz, everything is tickety-boo with Housing New Zealand. I would just like to ask every New Zealander who has ever had a problem with Housing New Zealand to email her now. Or she is actually quite active on Twitter, so get on Twitter and tell her your problems. I think it is @JudithCollins, is it? Is that the Twitter\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b8ff09e4e34f77b975c471eaf079fb\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241e2f1f9c36040e8a95c20c03a611e86\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: That will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f1dfa24e3846398e29453fa3eeb7ec\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Just look for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f4c54d4d19a487c93bbaebae8d58da5\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Just look for it\u2014look for the nastiest comments you can get on Twitter, and you will get on to that member\u2019s Twitter feed. Just get on to Twitter right now, New Zealanders, and give Judith Collins all of your very real-life experiences of dealing with Housing New Zealand because it seems that she actually needs to hear them right now. That Minister is completely out of touch. She thinks that everything is sorted with housing in New Zealand. She does not get it, and it is like the Government\u2019s denial of the housing crisis. Have we ever heard that? Its absolute denial that there is a housing crisis in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo, again, any New Zealander who is finding it tough to buy a home or to rent a home, contact Judith.Collins@parliament.govt.nz, or get on Twitter\u2014Twitter will do just as well. I think she really does need to know exactly what is going on in the housing market, because those members do not seem to get it that there is a housing crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EBut back to this bill. This bill does not actually address the needs that New Zealanders have\u2014it certainly does not address the needs that New Zealanders have. In fact, what it does is it makes the tenancies of some of the most vulnerable in our society so much less secure. What more fundamental social need is there in this country than the right of people to have a decent roof over their heads? What is more fundamental than the right of children to know that they are going to be able to go to their neighbourhood school because they are not going to be moved on unfairly by a faceless, nameless, bureaucrat in Housing New Zealand, who has not even got the decency to just go and have a conversation, go and actually have a negotiation, or go and talk with people about their options. Housing New Zealand officials are no longer going to need to do that because this Government wants to take the lazy approach of actually legislating people\u2019s rights away instead. It is actually legislating security of tenancy away from these people and just saying that, yes, they are the most vulnerable in our society, but, really, it is not going to take the time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00225760bf53eee240f186306280ecf02daf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225760bf53eee240f186306280ecf02daf\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2013111965abd8965c8741039ce7b0e0ff190a2c000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9.a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f04eb95b3f2474c8ba61b69ed95daae\u0022\u003ETuesday, 19 November 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0a03c7d4bb24bc484ae98c32712e48d\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 20 November 2013)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dae0b29bf2144b10bf3199fefbe09e43\u0022\u003ESocial Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f76ea0ab9d4f4f6090d41f462555e62a\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00226daf45547eb04248b00d9c68cfd664b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226daf45547eb04248b00d9c68cfd664b1\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Last night, when we were at the midway stages of the debate, I was opposing the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill on behalf of Labour, and I was proud to do so because we simply do not believe in making some of the most vulnerable people in our society even more vulnerable through this constant pressure and insecurity of reviewable tenancies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EDuring the Committee stage, Labour put forward very sensible amendments that were rejected by the Government. They were there to ensure that in legislation no one over the age of 65, no one with a disability, and no one with school-age children would be subject to these reviewable tenancies, and to the absolute lack of security over the most basic of fundamental needs, the right to have a decent roof over one\u2019s head. Labour is not a party that wants to make more insecurity for schoolchildren, for those over the age of 65, and for people with disabilities. Those are the people who need protection from the ravages of that Government opposite. We know that the basic problem here is that there is not enough housing to go around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb67c0d51c044e9a91d6294b53089dfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb67c0d51c044e9a91d6294b53089dfc\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am also pleased to take a call on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. That speech from Sue Moroney was a fairly good example, albeit a very short one, of the approach of the Labour Party, which seems to think that it is the only one that can be determinative of a person\u2019s situation in life. For so long, in terms of the housing stock, we have seen people who have become beholden to the State and have not had the ability and have not had the framework and the legislative impetus to have aspiration and to have the freedoms that we want everyone to be able to have. No one in this House would argue that having a house that is fit for purpose and having people assessed on a needs basis is anything other than reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWe are talking about a Labour Government that sat back there and did nothing about the housing stock for 9 years, whereas this Government is actually doing something about the housing stock. It is actually doing something about the challenges we are confronted with in some of the centres in terms of housing. We are bothering to insulate the houses and make them happy and warm environments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party members can wax lyrical and wring their hands over their chardonnays, but ultimately this is about a Minister of Housing who is actually committed to ensuring that the housing stock grows, that the flexibility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251eca4100f1141b19709f7350ccfaec3\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Slash and burn!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d6126f870a48d7bdbc47916cbff2eb\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the Labour Party approach, Mr Clark. That is the Labour Party approach: \u201CWhat we will do is we will sit over here in Opposition and do nothing more than throw stones at the people\u2014throw rocks within the glass house\u2014because those other people over there are actually doing something.\u201D, which is pretty reflective when one looks at the polls. It does not matter how many Labour leaders change it in and out; it is getting nowhere with that. And that member there, who seems to come up with the greatest one-liners in 50 years, and nothing more, should actually take a little bit of time to consider exactly what his party is doing, and what it aspires to\u2014not much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EThis bill is about providing the right mechanisms for the housing stock and ensuring that the community and relevant organisations can participate in providing the right sort of support for those who need it\u2014simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00222fa1bc77e894434c8245d62bbbcdff0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fa1bc77e894434c8245d62bbbcdff0f\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to cover some of the things that may not actually have been covered in the debate on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, but I will try to keep to a third reading speech. It is a bit galling to have johnny-come-latelys in the National Government protest that Labour did nothing in housing for 9 years. I would just like to go back a bit, because clearly the new members have swallowed hook, line, and sinker the spin that their seniors have fed them, without question. The fact is that Labour came in after 13,000 State houses were sold, and proceeded to build 8,600 State houses. We built or acquired 8,600 houses during those 9 years, because it does take longer to build and acquire them than it does to get rid of them or to sell them, as the previous National Government did. I will not even be bothered traversing all the other ranges of options that we put in place to address housing affordability, such as the Welcome Home Loan scheme, such as shared equity\u2014all of those programmes that were designed to help people into their first homes. The newcomers in the National Government have been fed a line by their seniors that they have swallowed without question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhat we have here, as others have noted before me, is a Minister with a devastating combination, actually\u2014a devastating combination in Dr Smith\u2014of being extraordinarily effective as a Minister and almost always wrong. He is almost always wrong. He is really effective\u2014he knows how to get things done\u2014but he is almost always wrong, and this bill is another example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe procedure that is operationalised in this bill will strip back Housing New Zealand. It transfers its needs assessment function over to the Ministry of Social Development. It transfers money to the third sector for housing purposes, which we do not oppose, but we wish it were sufficient and not simply an abrogation of the Government\u2019s own responsibility to be the leader and the prime provider in affordable housing and social housing in this country. Instead of shovelling that off to an under-resourced third sector, the Government should be stepping up and making its own moves, taking its own actions, to address the needs of those who are unable to enter the private rental market, through no fault of their own, or to enter homeownership, which is an even more remote dream. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ELabour opposes this bill, not because everything in it is wrong but because everything in it is either wrong or inadequate. It is simply not good enough\u2014it is simply not good enough\u2014for this Government to bring in a process of reviewable tenancies so that that shadow will hang over every tenant in a State house\u2014\u201CWhen are they going to review my tenancy? When am I going to be told that I can\u2019t have this house any more?\u201D. That is not how to build secure communities, and that is what social housing ought to be about\u2014about not only providing housing for the poor but also using the State\u2019s leverage and the State\u2019s capacity to build secure, contributing communities, and not simply considering it an irritation or a monkey on the back of the Government that it would rather dispose of. This is not a good bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of legislation that will be limited in its lifetime. It will be limited in its lifetime because when Labour takes office, we will be keen to address affordable housing in the multitude of ways that work, not simply the single actions that penalise people who currently use State housing because they need to for the security and the safety of their families. This is a punitive bill, and Labour will not support it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022231013cb930c499483549c374fe9df3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022231013cb930c499483549c374fe9df3a\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party also fundamentally opposes this Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill. We oppose it because we believe in homes, not just houses. We believe that homes are important to the foundations of our society. We oppose this bill because we know that if we have good, warm, dry, affordable homes for everyone, we will all benefit through reduced health costs, improved educational outcomes, and improved economic productivity. We believe that because the evidence tells us that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill because we honestly value the tangata whenua and the community and voluntary sector. We recognise that they have a lot to contribute to community housing through their own value base, not through being turned into arms of the State, which is what this bill attempts to do. We oppose this bill because we do not believe that the Ministry of Social Development or Work and Income will improve services for people needing housing support\u2014in fact, we fear the opposite. We oppose this bill because we think that the priority is building communities, not temporary shelters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI have spoken already in relation to this bill about most of my adult life being in rental housing and the costs of that to me economically, as well as in terms of increased stress. But I was really lucky to spend my childhood in one house, in a place with a big garden, fruit trees, and three bedrooms. It was warm and dry. I got to go through the same schools\u2014the primary school, the intermediate school, and the secondary school\u2014with consistency. I did not have to move between my schools, and none of my friends had to move either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIn my childhood none of my friends moved house, and that is such a contrast to the reality of so many children now. We see in South Auckland the turnover in private rentals being, on average, four families a year. We hear about schools where there is 100 percent churn in the population of the school. Those children have lost the childhood that we had. They have been taken away from the stability of a continuous education and peer group. They do not have the childhood that we had. What this bill does is make that even more precarious. Even the lives of children in State housing are now being threatened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI want to remind that side of the House that it was a liberal Government that first recognised the importance of State housing. It saw that the growing reports of extortionate rents and squalid living conditions required it to intervene to protect our society and to provide some basic, decent standards. That very vision is being eroded by this Government and by this bill. I think it is an absolute shame and a change of our national values. Shame on this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI think that the Green Party, as an alternative, has a vision in terms of the State\u2019s role. I know that housing is of such concern to our communities. I was speaking with a cleaner in Wellington Hospital recently, who was asking what can be done, because he wants to get out of extortionate rents in the private market. I told him that our answer is about more secure tenure\u2014the opposite to what this Government is doing\u2014and the idea of a rent-to-own property, where the Government\u2019s ability to access low interest rates could be passed on to New Zealanders so that New Zealanders could be provided with secure tenure and the ability to own in the future. I hope New Zealand will vote in the future for that vision\u2014a vision of community and of all of us having a decent standard of living\u2014and not this dystopian vision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00229a4ab3b1151d46c1a096306ebf7ba515\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a4ab3b1151d46c1a096306ebf7ba515\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E The Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill has been canvassed a lot, and was for many, many hours last night. I simply want to say that when the Opposition accuses this Government of not recognising the importance of State housing, it is absolutely wrong. This bill is all about recognising the importance of State housing. That is why National is committed to ensuring that the State housing stock is fit for purpose, that the State housing stock is allocated to those most in need, and that there is flexibility around that, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI want to simply point out the huge investment that Housing New Zealand is making. We are making a record investment of $2.9 billion in Housing New Zealand over 3 years. That is National\u2019s commitment to State housing. This bill will absolutely ensure that more services are provided to New Zealanders in this sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EVotes for the Noes ordered to be recorded in the Journals of the House of Representatives as follows: New Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c009265e98c14e3c9054b4662fca7f23\u0022\u003EGame Animal Council Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022accd6273548f4c94886148de7fc00a9a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00224818bf888a6640f9be4cf64548581cc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224818bf888a6640f9be4cf64548581cc6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Game Animal Council Bill be now read a second time. This bill is an important step in both improving the management of game animals and also recognising the recreational passion that many New Zealanders have\u2014in fact, I think that includes the Deputy Speaker\u2014for recreational hunting. Although those who tramp, those who mountaineer, and those who go fishing for salmon and trout are given a direct voice in their recreation, the hunters of deer, of pig, of chamois, and of tahr are effectively not included in the statutory way in which their recreation is managed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the leader of the United Future party, Peter Dunne, who, as part of our confidence and supply agreement, has been a champion for hunters and for the recognition that the Game Animal Council will give to providing a voice for that group of recreationists. I commend the work of the Local Government and Environment Committee, ably chaired by Christchurch Central MP, Nicky Wagner. The committee worked effectively in considering the many issues that were raised by submitters and has suggested a number of constructive changes to the bill, and I thank all the members of the committee for the work that they have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere were 664 submissions from interested groups and individuals, which is a bit of a signal as to just how many people have a passion for hunting. The committee heard 39 oral submissions. It had hearings both in Wellington and in Christchurch. Many submitters supported the creation of the Game Animal Council as a whole-of-sector council. We need to acknowledge that there are tensions between some who have commercial aerial trophy-hunting businesses and the purely recreational sector, and I think that there is real merit in having a Game Animal Council, which is pretty consistent with this Government\u2019s view of getting those parties round the table, and directly engaging in their recreation and their businesses, in order to come to a sensible way forward to manage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe vast majority of submissions supported the intent of the bill, but there is a range of changes. For instance, the committee has recommended that we clearly define \u201Cpublic conservation land\u201D so that it is quite plain that it does not include privately owned land or land that has been vested back with iwi as part of a Treaty settlement. There have also been amendments around the definitions of \u201Cregional council\u201D and \u201Cgame trophy\u201D that are also constructive. The select committee has made changes to the bill to ensure that the Game Animal Council itself has the right mix of expertise to be able to make sound decisions that strengthen the voice of iwi and M\u0101ori. It has also made provision for ensuring that scientific knowledge is properly respected. And we need to acknowledge in this area that there is a real tension between the interests of recreational hunters, who wish there to be good populations of deer, chamois, and tahr so that it is an easy hunt, and the reality from a conservation perspective that those numbers need to be kept down and need to be kept limited. Therefore, we are serious about the sustainability of the forests in which they exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do note in the debate on this bill that there is the polarised view that these animals must be defined either as pests, and every last one hunted to the ends of the Earth, or as valued animals. I come from the perspective, a pragmatic perspective, that it depends where they are and in what numbers. That is, it is true that these animals, if in high concentrations or in the wrong place, can do irreversible conservation harm. Equally so, it is true that they provide a huge amount of enjoyment and recreation for many New Zealanders and that, providing that is properly managed, it is possible for us to have the best of both worlds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI announced yesterday changes in respect of the role of the Game Animal Council. During the Committee stage I will be introducing Supplementary Order Paper 395 to deal quite specifically with the tension between aerial trophy hunters and recreational hunters around hunters in helicopters shooting animals from the helicopter, of herding animals into a hunter\u2014a practice known as hazing, where effectively a helicopter is able to chase an animal to exhaustion and then make it an easy pot-shot for a hunter. It is intended that the Game Animal Council will be responsible for developing a code of practice to ensure that there is tighter regulation of those activities. That is a specific commitment that the Government made to Peter Dunne and the United Future party, and we intend to address it in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is a significant step forward. For my entire period in Parliament there has been concern from recreational hunters that they are locked out from having an effective voice in the management of their recreation. This bill is a good bill, which enables those hunters to be able to be directly engaged in their sport. My experience with other bodies such as the Fish and Game Council is that when participants are included in the decision-making process, they are very responsible and they engage very constructively. That is why, fundamentally, this is a bill that the House should support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002271e10ddc652c48eba6db77fcde4f3f7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271e10ddc652c48eba6db77fcde4f3f7a\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I listened with interest to the Minister of Conservation\u2019s contribution on what has been a very interesting process and debate on the Game Animal Council Bill. Some of his speech is very outdated, actually, and does not reflect the deliberation and the submissions that went on during the select committee process, and I am a little sad about that because he is a Minister who is on top of his portfolio, particularly in comparison with his colleagues. He has got a good passion for the area, he understands it, and I think he has a genuine commitment, but when he described opponents of this bill as being people who could see game animals only as pests and that, therefore, the animals had to eliminated to the nth degree, he did miss the debate and the progress that was made on that particular point. That is quite a narrow view and it is not one that was reflected by people who had concerns about this bill, in the main. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI also noted that he seemed to totally overlook the fact that one of the biggest associations in New Zealand, the Deerstalkers Association, said that its concerns about trophy hunting have fallen on deaf ears. That is a very strong comment to make from the group that represents one of the biggest groups of recreational hunters. In fact, its president, Tim McCarthy, said yesterday: \u201CWhen it becomes an issue that affects the stakeholders of New Zealand\u2019s public land, and hunters are stakeholders in public land, then surely the tail shouldn\u2019t be wagging the dog in this case.\u201D Those are the sorts of serious concerns that were raised at the Local Government and Environment Committee. I have to say that I think the members of the select committee from all parties, in the main, took those issues very seriously and tried to do what Labour said we would attempt to do at the very start of this process, which is to look at the fact that everyone agrees that the different stakeholders and interests should work together as much as possible to get agreed outcomes on shared goals. It is not always possible, but it is clear that in some parts of the country it works very well under the existing regime. It is also clear that in other parts of the country it does not work well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe select committee tried to find out, where it is working well\u2014where the Department of Conservation, recreational hunters, and other users of our public land work together\u2014what bit of magic they have produced to make that happen. Well, in a lot of cases it is about relationships and it is about the personalities and the commitment. But I think it is driven by an understanding that the Department of Conservation has the legal mandate to protect our conservation estate, our public land, but it is really obvious that it is not the only stakeholder. The public of New Zealand are all stakeholders in our public land. If any groups or individuals have interests, they should be party to shared goals of protection and then utilise their activity to further that goal. That was the approach we took at the Local Government and Environment Committee. We looked at how we could better enhance the work of the Department of Conversation through those partnerships, and build on successful models that had already been demonstrated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWhen the Game Animal Council Bill was first introduced, we also said that we had a lot of concerns about it, but we did support it going to the select committee so that we could have that debate and see what could be resolved. Unfortunately, despite what I think were the very good efforts of the select committee, our time was short by just a little. Perhaps if we had had another few meetings, we might have got to a complete resolution. But, unfortunately, we were not given that additional time and, as a result, some of our pretty serious concerns have not been resolved. I am sad to say that we have to oppose the bill, just because those concerns have not been met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think it is also a bit of an indication to Parliament of not presuming which parties will think what and always presuming that certain parties will oppose it or support it. I do think that in many areas, if there is an agreed goal, there are genuine attempts made for compromises, to look at other people\u2019s perspectives, and to see what resolution can be found. If we were able to do that more in Parliament, then perhaps some of the solutions that are passed into law might be more robust and might be more enduring because they would have had wider input, wider consideration, and some compromise reached along the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWhat I think this bill does now is actually create a stronger tension between hunters in New Zealand and the Department of Conservation. From my perspective, that is the very opposite of what we should do. Recreational hunters are a big part of New Zealand life. We heard that from submitters. The passion that those submitters have about the great outdoors, about being able to hunt\u2014whether it is to feed their neighbours or feed their families in quite a serious way, as part of their budgeting. The pride and passion that they have for New Zealand and for our public land is something that we should capture and we should utilise for the greater good. I do not think that this bill does that. I do not doubt that that was part of the intention, actually. I am sure that there was a lot of wanting to utilise that passion of recreational hunters, as the driver behind this bill, but I do not think that the outcome has achieved that. Perhaps during the Committee of the whole House there might be some more accommodations reached. The Hon Peter Dunne, who drove this bill, might well consider that. I would recommend that he read the minority reports that have been produced as part of the select committee process because they do indicate a lot of support for some of the outcomes, but the serious concerns about the other outcomes of this bill are just too great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI have also heard that there is some concern that the Supplementary Order Papers that have been tabled go too far or are based on an extreme view of what might happen. Actually, the Supplementary Order Papers produced by Eugenie Sage that I have seen so far do not do that at all. I will obviously talk more about them in the Committee stage, but I just want to put on the record for consideration by the other members of the House that her Supplementary Order Papers, from my reading of them, do what the select committee assumed would happen anyway, so it is a belt and braces approach, rather than something that is going to a real extreme. So I would ask that serious consideration be given to all the Supplementary Order Papers, rather than members making an assumption that any member is trying to trip up the process. What we tried to do, from the perspective of the Labour members\u2014and we put a lot of effort into the select committee process\u2014was just address the concerns that we had. We were upfront about it. We listened to the submissions. We moderated some of our views as part of the process and hardened up on others where those concerns had not been met. Some of the areas are quite obvious. Where you want to create a partnership, you do not set up another structure and have it often in competition with an existing organisation. You work out how to have a structure that would better enhance the relationships that are so necessary for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWhen you look at the way the Department of Conservation is operating now, it is obvious to see that it is under huge financial pressure. It has been forced by the nature of the budget cuts to move into better partnerships, as they are called, with community organisations. What concerns me is that they are not genuine partnerships with shared goals, where different groups in our communities say: \u201CWe care about the public estate. We\u2019re not DOC. We\u2019re recreational hunters or we\u2019re fishing people.\u201D, and whatever their activity is, they have a passion and a genuine love and concern for the well-being of our public land. They should have a part to play. But the partnerships that the Department of Conservation is undertaking are almost ones purely of a business arrangement, where it is asking for money in order to perform its fundamental duties. I do not think that those are the sorts of relationships that will enhance the work of the Department of Conservation; in fact, they may well undermine it. We certainly do not want to have a department that is responsible for pest control, for example, putting out the begging bowl and saying: \u201CWe think there\u2019s a stoat on K\u0101piti island. Would anyone like to sponsor some pest control?\u201D. That is the position that the National Government has put the Department of Conservation in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe have seen an even more recent example in Hawke\u2019s Bay where the proposal for the Ruataniwha dam has the potential to turn the Tukituki River toxic. That should be a major concern to people in Hawke\u2019s Bay. In fact, to people over the rest of the country, that is exactly what the model says. That is because it does not manage nitrates. That is exactly what the model says, and the Department of Conservation was absent from any contribution to that. So we want this bill to be reflective of the genuine partnerships that we need to better protect our public land. We tried really hard through the select committee consideration to get to that, but, unfortunately, this bill achieves the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022a89b83526d3e45bf89125c32bb10c480\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a89b83526d3e45bf89125c32bb10c480\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Today is a red-letter day for recreational hunters in New Zealand for a couple of reasons. First, there has been\u2014and I think the member who has just resumed her seat, Ruth Dyson, alluded to this in part\u2014a measure of suspicion amongst many of them as to whether the Game Animal Council would ever eventuate. After all, it is almost a year since this bill, the Game Animal Council Bill, was reported back to the House, and some of those advocates were deeply suspicious that that was as far as it would go. So today is important to give reassurance on that score. It is also important for them because, as the Minister of Conservation said in his introductory remarks, this Game Animal Council effectively parallels for game hunting interests the role of Fish and Game in terms of freshwater fish, etc. So upon the passing of this bill we will for the first time have integrated approaches to the management of the major recreational sectors in New Zealand. I think that is a very positive step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut it has been a long journey. I want to take some time this morning to rehearse some elements of that journey. In United Future\u2019s 2005 confidence and supply agreement with the then Labour Government there was a special committee established to review pest management issues. That committee was chaired by my former colleague and very good friend the Hon Margaret Austin, who is well-known in this House. The Minister said earlier that this bill attracted 660-odd submissions. That is a fraction of what the Austin committee attracted by way of submissions. There were 4,500 submissions to that committee, which met in the period of 2005-08. One of the strong recommendations that came forward from that committee was that there be a move towards the establishment of a Game Animal Council. So this morning I want to immediately acknowledge the work of Margaret Austin and the earlier work of her committee in getting us launched on the journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhen the change of Government occurred in 2008, we included in our 2008 and 2011 confidence and supply agreements with the current Government provisions, firstly, for the work of the Austin committee to be advanced, and, secondly, as it happened, for the Game Animal Council to be introduced. What happened after 2008 was that an establishment committee, chaired by Garry Ottmann from the Game and Forest Foundation, was set up to take those recommendations from the Austin committee and start to develop the basis for a Game Animal Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe establishment committee consulted widely in New Zealand. It consulted with similar agencies in Australian states. They are not entirely comparable, but there were valuable insights to be gained from them. By the time of the 2011 election, we were on the way to preparing the legislation that comes before the House this morning. So I want to acknowledge the work of Garry Ottmann and successive officers of the New Zealand Deerstalkers Association\u2014more particularly, of recent times, Tim McCarthy, and before him, Alec McIver and Bill O\u2019Leary, who has been a constant advocate right throughout. I want to acknowledge all of the work these people have done in bringing this proposal to the stage where, firstly, it becomes legislation, and secondly, it is about to be passed by the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI listened to what I thought was a relatively constructive speech from Ruth Dyson. I do not agree with everything she said, and I think that some of the concerns that she expressed may well be dealt with once the council is established, but I think there were some important points. I do not see the Game Animal Council being set up to be a competitor to the Department of Conservation in that sense. Rather, I see it as part of the devolution of responsibility to a range of interests. One of the things that strikes one when you look at the whole recreational sector in New Zealand is that it is not particularly well-organised at this time. There are a series of responsibilities that sit in different places. They are not well coordinated and are a little hard to understand. One of the issues that the Game Animal Council will face will be to be the focal point for bringing together a lot of matters that relate to the game animal sector\u2014and to the hunting sector, in particular\u2014not just in terms of the physical act of hunting but for issues like the promotion of safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThat brings into prospect the work that the Mountain Safety Council does and how that can be better coordinated and plugged into existing systems. The Mountain Safety Council is an extraordinary organisation. It has been around for 40-odd years. It does not actually formally report to anyone. It is funded on the basis of contracts from the public sector\u2014the police, search and rescue, etc.\u2014but it does not have a physical home. What it is crying out for is some form of integration with the work of agencies like the Game Animal Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe issue that has arisen over time in tandem with this has been the question of what used to be known as heli-hunting, which now has the more grand title of assisted aerial trophy hunting\u2014it is somewhat of a euphemism, I think, for what actually happens. There has been a constant dispute between the recreational hunters and the purveyors of assisted aerial trophy hunting services about whether the playing field is level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs part of our confidence and supply agreement in 2011, there was provision for the phasing out of assisted aerial trophy hunting through making restrictions to herding and hazing, etc. When, as Associate Minister of Conservation, I received the applications nearly 3 years ago from that sector, I made a condition of the permits that were granted that there be no herding and hazing. Having told me that this was a practice that they never engaged in, those in that sector promptly took me to a judicial review for having put into their agreements the things they said they never actually engaged in. We won that position in court, but the issue arises again as these permits expire in February of next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe solution that will be proposed by way of a Supplementary Order Paper a little later today\u2014effectively charging the Game Animal Council with monitoring the application of those provisions and then developing a code of practice\u2014is, I think, an elegant one. It is an elegant one for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it will resolve an issue that has caused so much tension. Secondly, it will ensure\u2014and this is really the platform on which I believe the Game Animal Council needs to be launched\u2014that the council will have an effective role in terms of future issues that affect the recreational hunting sector. One of the great fears in the early days of this debate was that we were setting up an agency that would be a talk-shop that would do very little and would have little connection to what was going on. The fact that we have been able to identify this particular issue as one that sits neatly within its purview is, I think, a good indicator of what will happen in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere are very complicated issues regarding access to land, and the member who preceded me, Ruth Dyson, alluded to those. There are always delicate issues regarding the quantum of hunting being allowed in particular sectors. I am aware of certain management plans that work well, and others that are challenged by hunters, who see other people from outside their particular geographic location coming in to steal their bounty, if you want to use that term. The Game Animal Council will be in a much closer position to monitor, to regulate, to recommend, and to cajole behaviour in those particular areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think what we will see once this legislation is passed is not fears being realised. These fears are understandable at the moment because this is new. I think what we will start to see once the council is appointed\u2014and I think getting it up and running early in the new year is a priority\u2014is a process whereby for the first time we have a genuine forum where the issues that affect recreational hunters can be put on the table, can be debated, and can be understood by conservation authorities, by the Department of Conservation, by the Government, and by Parliament as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo this is a red-letter day. It is a very important day for the recreational sector in New Zealand. I think it sends a signal, and it is this. This was an unusual, perhaps unique, and certainly not especially popular campaign when we began it back in 2005. It was seen as being a little quirky. The reality is that hunting is a mainstream issue for New Zealanders. What this bill demonstrates is that by commitment, by tenacity, and by perseverance you can make change and you can achieve positive outcomes. It demonstrates that you can give a sport that is enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders a proper place and a way in which it can be recognised, its talents and attributes can be respected, and the input the people who partake in that sport have into broader conservation policy can be given credibility. So I welcome the second reading of this bill. I am looking forward to the debate that will ensue and to the bill being passed by this House, hopefully a little later on today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022f514aa4977cf4272bb92dccaefcc9c5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f514aa4977cf4272bb92dccaefcc9c5f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It has actually been a while since our select committee, the Local Government and Environment Committee, considered this bill, the Game Animal Council Bill. I think the Hon Peter Dunne must have all the patience in the world, given how long it has taken to get to this point. I had to dig out all my notes and refresh my memory in terms of all the very, very in-depth conversations we had at the select committee around the various aspects of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing that Labour is not able to support this bill. I think it is an opportunity lost. There is very definitely the potential in here for doing some very, very good things, from building on existing relationships, creating relationships where those relationships do not currently exist, and fixing relationships where, in fact, things have not gone so well, and there was a range of ways that this bill could have been approached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI note that it was the advice of the officials that going down the path of creating stand-alone legislation, as we have done here, carried with it the most regulatory burden and the most cost, and there were other ways that we could have approached this bill. Under section 5 of the Wild Animal Control Act, of course, the Minister of Conservation is able to establish any type of committee that is relevant to the purpose of the Act, and, clearly, managing those tensions between recreational hunters and pest control and the preservation and stewardship of public conservation land is relevant to the purpose of that Act. But, of course, there were concerns raised that in doing that the Minister could also then very easily disestablish any such committee, and they felt that that was perhaps too much power to be giving to a Minister of Conservation when we have a committee that everyone agrees should exist and when we have identified common goals, as Ruth Dyson said. We appreciate that point of view, but this could have also been done through making an amendment to the Wild Animal Control Act. That would have set up a committee that the Minister did not have the power to disestablish, but would have been far more consistent with the legislation that the Department of Conservation already works under. So there was a range of different things that we could have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI note that this goes right back to when we were in Government. I think that Steve Chadwick was the Minister of Conservation when an advisory group was set up to look at how this might be done. Well, I think they were one of the first submitters that we heard from, from memory\u2014going back into the distant past\u2014and they were not happy with the bill. In fact, they said that this is pretty much exactly what they said not to do, and they think that this will increase tensions, not reduce them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAlthough I agree with a lot of what the Hon Peter Dunne said about what his party wants to achieve and what he is trying to achieve, it is not as simple when you are dealing with an area like this, which relies on relationship-building\u2014very, very much so\u2014and this is not going to work if those relationships are not taken into account. You cannot simply, through legislation, just force that relationship-building, and that was our concern the whole way through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThere was a lot of common ground. What became very apparent at the select committee was that between all the groups and what we might call competing interests, there was actually a hell of a lot of common ground that we could have built on, to come up with a solution that did not exacerbate some of the tensions that do exist. I do not think there is anyone in this House\u2014well, I hope there is no one in this House\u2014who is going to stand up and claim that this bill is going to see those tensions disappear, because it will not. This is still going to require an awfully large amount of relationship-building. But in that room we also heard from recreational hunters in parts of the country where they work incredibly well with the Department of Conservation, where they have worked between themselves to develop management plans that met the objectives of pest control but at the same time provided herds of a significant enough size for recreational hunters to be able to get maximum benefit out of that. And it works very, very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe also heard from parts of the country where it is an absolute dog\u2019s breakfast, where there is a complete breakdown in the relationship between the department and the recreational hunting community. I think a lot of it comes back to what the Hon Peter Dunne was saying about how the recreational hunting community is not particularly well-organised at the moment. So you have some parts of the country where it is very strong\u2014certain herds that are stronger than others\u2014but across the entire country it is not particularly well-organised. So, I guess, then it becomes the question of whether we put the cart before the horse with this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ECould we have done this differently? At the moment we are asking a sector that by our own admission is still in its infancy in terms of organisation to carry out an incredibly important task. Maybe, had we gone down another path of that relationship-building, it may well have been that this is where we ended up. But we might have ended up there, first of all, by building on existing relationships, developing those relationships, and using them as an example where those relationships are very good, and learning from negative experiences where those relationships have been very bad. We could have done this as an amendment under existing legislation. It may well have been that we would have got to this in the end, once we had built up the capacity within the recreational hunting sector to be able to carry out the tasks that we are handing over to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe National Party represents extensively provincial New Zealand, where pest control is incredibly important not just for people who value conservation land but for farmers and for many others. If we do not carry out pest control effectively, if we let that get away from us, that has enormous implications for our economy as well as for our environment. So when we start to devolve responsibility away from the department\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284d1a3d24ff24c66b2ff78ad0d93f2ff\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Have you ever shared that with your colleagues before, Moana? You have? They\u2019re not listening. Tell them again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022097b2b133fae40c9bd3690270e2e76fd\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that currently does that, then we have to be very, very clear that those same things, those same activities, those same roles are going to be carried out. Mr Ardern was not on the select committee. I actually wish he had been on that select committee, because I think the experience he has would have been very, very useful. A lot of the discussions we had were very relevant to his area of expertise. I do not believe that with this piece of legislation we met the concerns that were raised at the select committee. That is all I am saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI think there was probably, I guess, an intermediate step that we could have taken, as I said, perhaps on the way to a stand-alone game animal council bill with its own legislation, that would have allayed the concerns of those who felt that devolving those powers right now was a bit soon and that the people we are devolving them to do not quite have access to the resources in order to be able to do that. But we want to build up that capacity with the Department of Conservation and with the Government, and eventually, yes, we could potentially see far more devolution of some of this stuff to a game animal council. That is not far away from where actually the advisory committee that we set up when we were in Government to look at this was\u2014the advisory committee that the National Government continued; the advisory committee that came before the select committee to tell us its thoughts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI note that if members read the regulatory impact statement, they will see that these are all concerns that have been echoed right through the regulatory impact statement. Under \u201CProblem definition\u201D it says: \u201CThere is no information clearly establishing that current institutional arrangements in the management regime for wild animals requires change to improve participation among the different groups with interests in these animals and their effects on the environment. Differences in values and viewpoints between the relevant stakeholders are longstanding, well understood within the sector and have not been resolved over many years. There is no evidence that current user groups and organisations (for example the Deerstalkers\u2019 Association) are deficient in representing their members\u2019 interest.\u201D So I think the regulatory impact statement itself clearly says that the problem definition that the Government has done in justifying the need for this bill does not really represent reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that we spent a lot of time on at the Local Government and Environment Committee was how we were going to pay for this. It is always one of the more difficult things, as you can come up with new councils\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a715c30ad140e3883ffb89a7e30da7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: There were a lot of ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022018650917ba34730b01bd5694d0477ca\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well there were a lot of ideas. You can come up with a whole range of new committees and councils, but someone has to pay for them. Ultimately, when the rubber hits the road, it is often the case, unfortunately, that everyone wants it but no one wants to pay for it. We looked at a range of options. The Government was not prepared to stump up the total funding for the board. There was some establishment money and, I think, $50,000 a year, but that $50,000 a year ongoing\u2014so, $100,000 in the first financial year and then $50,000 in subsequent years\u2014comes from reprioritising existing Vote Conservation funding. So it is not new money. It means that the Department of Conservation, which is under enormous financial pressure at the moment as it is, is going to have to find this money from somewhere else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo the question, obviously, around that is, what has got to give in order to pay for this? There were really two main options. One was a levy on the export of trophy heads, which was the path the select committee went down in the end. Submissions reflected concerns that this was unfairly targeting one group of hunters over another, and that is a fair point to make. That could, again, create tensions within the hunting sector as opposed to trying to relieve them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThen the other option that we looked at was to put a levy on all hunting permits. There are about 34,000 of these issued a year, but they are currently free of charge. I guess there was a feeling in the select committee that applying it to everyone might again create a number of tensions within the hunting community. I think the discussion we had around operating costs actually reflected largely the discussion we had around the bill, which is that we want to reduce tensions and not increase them. Unfortunately, this bill does not achieve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002279c2bc6c6ee348cb87e985151b7b4c54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279c2bc6c6ee348cb87e985151b7b4c54\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the Game Animal Council Bill. The Green Party certainly supports recreational hunting on public conservation land. As Moana Mackey said, there are 34,000 hunting permits issued each year by the Department of Conservation. Many Kiwis get immense enjoyment from getting out into the back country and going hunting because of the physical challenges involved and the stamina required, and actually just from being out in the back country, being up on those scree slopes, and being up on the tussock tops enjoying the views, waiting for deer and scanning through binoculars for chamois. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is a long tradition that New Zealand has of free access to conservation land to go hunting. We understand that, and recreational hunting is just as valid a use of our back country as tramping, mountain biking, fishing, or any other opportunity out there. But we have a big problem with this bill because it is not about strengthening the Kiwi tradition of going hunting. It is not about boosting hunter numbers and encouraging more young people to go hunting. The regulatory impact statement made it quite clear that there was not any evidence that the current institutional arrangements required change in order to improve participation of people in hunting as a sport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThis bill is primarily about catering to a small group that can afford to pay for helicopters and guides to go trophy hunting. It is about giving them management control and considerable influence over the management of conservation land. The Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395, by stripping out of the bill any references to recreational hunting, makes that quite clear. This bill is likely to make it both more expensive and more bureaucratic for Kiwis to go hunting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is no reason for this bill, as other Opposition colleagues have noted. There are alternative ways of giving a better voice for the hunting fraternity. It is only going through because it is the pay-off to United Future for its support of the Government\u2019s asset sales legislation and it is part of the confidence and supply agreement. The bill does not recognise what the Department of Conservation is doing to improve relationships with the hunting sector. It does not recognise improvements to the hunting permit system or the outreach that a lot of the conservation boards are doing, and it is unnecessary, as the regulatory impact statement made very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe already have the Wild Animal Control Act. The purpose of that Act is to achieve coordination of hunting measures and it is to provide for the regulation of recreational hunting, commercial hunting, and wild animal recovery operations. It was an option\u2014which many parties supported, such as the Conservation Authority\u2014of setting up a ministerial advisory committee under the Wild Animal Control Act to advise the Minister on hunting. That would have achieved much better integration with the current legislative framework and with the current structure of managing hunting, rather than this stand-alone bill and stand-alone agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe could have also got a greater voice for hunting through additional appointments to the Conservation Authority or to conservation boards. We had a very interesting submission at the select committee from the Tongariro/Taup\u014D Conservation Board, which talked a lot about how it was working to ensure that hunters\u2019 interests were accommodated. If you use existing agencies in existing legislation, you are going to get that cooperation, that collaboration, amongst the different stakeholders. Setting up the Game Animal Council as a single hunting organisation will not see that collaboration and will not foster it. It is likely to create significantly more conflict and division in the management of conservation lands. So that is one reason we are opposing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill is also setting up an unnecessary quango. We already have liaison committees under the Wild Animal Control Act, and they have a significant influence on how hunting is managed on conservation land. You only have to think of the Himalayan Tahr Control Plan Implementation Group, which I was on in a former life. That was dominated by hunters. That was very influential in determining how tahr were managed and making sure that hunters actually got a real privilege in getting helicopter access to wilderness areas. There are existing mechanisms like those liaison committees under the Wild Animal Control Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other reasons we oppose the bill is the significant cost in establishing the Game Animal Council. As the regulatory impact statement said, the council would have the highest costs in terms of time and resources, as well as being the least aligned to the current wild animal control regime and legislative framework. The Government is proposing to direct at least $100,000 annually, and potentially $200,000 annually, to establish the council. That is a significant cost for the Department of Conservation when the push is for it to be engaged in effective spending, and we know because of the funding cuts that it is very much under financial constraints. Where we have seen these stand-alone councils established elsewhere, such as in New South Wales, the council failed to break even and the state Government there had to subsidise its game animal council to the tune of $3.5 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo here, if the Government does not subsidise the council to that amount, we are likely to see significant fees imposed on recreational hunters. Originally, the council was to be funded just by levies on the export of trophies. The Local Government and Environment Committee amendments to the bill include a power for the council to recommend to the Minister how it wants to recover its costs, and then there is a power for the Minister to impose fees and levies. The Green Party\u2019s concern is that the combination of those powers, plus the stripping out of any reference to recreational hunters through the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, is going to mean potentially that the council will set very high levies to hunt animals in herds of special interest that only the trophy hunters can afford. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAt the moment the Department of Conservation does not charge people to go hunting. It recovers its costs for hunting permits, but that is generally only about $30 a permit. So the Department of Conservation at the moment supports that Kiwi tradition of going hunting. The Game Animal Council is likely to undermine that because of the need to recover the costs of running an 11 to 12-member council and its costs in doing research and other work on these herds of special interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe State Services Commission, Treasury, the former Ministry of Economic Development, the former Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and the former Food Safety Authority all opposed this bill. The Government normally takes the advice of these agencies. National\u2019s rhetoric is all about cutting through red tape and bureaucracy, yet in establishing this stand-alone agency with significant management powers, it is setting up more red tape and bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut our major reason for opposing it is that it introduces multiple use management on the public conservation estate and that it is at odds with the whole thrust of conservation legislation and the Department of Conservation\u2019s statutory purpose, which is to protect and preserve natural and historic resources and our unique indigenous biodiversity. Because animals like tahr and deer are being changed by this bill from being recognised as a problem and as having an impact, through their browsing on our high country soils, on our indigenous species, into being seen as more of an asset of value, we are going to see significant conflicts between the Game Animal Council and the Department of Conservation when it wants to undertake culling and control operations and when it wants to do aerial 1080 operations to control possums. The Game Animal Council, in seeking to protect its stakeholder interests, is likely to oppose that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the whole desire of the Game Animal Council to maximise hunting opportunities will conflict with the management of conservation lands and pest control. That is obvious from the fact that there is nothing in this bill that prohibits the Minister from establishing herds of special interest in our highest-category protected areas like national parks, nature reserves, and ecological areas. That is why there is Supplementary Order Paper 400 in my name to amend that. If the Minister is genuine about continuing to protect conservation values, there should be a clear commitment that these herds of special interest not be established in national parks, nature reserves, scientific reserves, and ecological areas because of the damage that introduced browsers cause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is significant international concern about this bill. The Environment and Conservation Organisations of New Zealand attached to its submission a letter from the vice-chair, Oceania, of the International Union for Conservation of Nature. That was from Penelope Figgis and the deputy vice-chair, Bruce Jefferies, to the Minister of Conservation. It emphasised that there is \u201Csignificant deep-seated apprehension that the legal and philosophical principles that underpin New Zealand\u2019s conservation management systems would be both undermined and compromised if introduced animal management is taken over and driven by the interests of commercial game animal groups and a limited number of recreational hunters.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe have a lot more to say about this bill, which we will do in the Committee stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022348f5778cbef467fb238c6104c20fe55\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002248c24026d14a4e219132ab06f57dc50d\u0022\u003ESocial Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill\u2014Voting Correction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00226b07a6aceb9b4fa5a4b0a4dc784b0d49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b07a6aceb9b4fa5a4b0a4dc784b0d49\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the vote on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill to be taken again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a646d31e8c4f6793f93480ed38ccac\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You want the vote to be taken again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b10f84ccae7e473a82fc9395b7e9e68b\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784d6799fbf1402195b5b7d61ed36f82\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? [Interruption] Sorry? Do you just want to give your vote again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226adc137dc0764280ab2511f4151fcf2f\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I want to take the vote again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419f1d4bc3494063babd20b2f5cfd474\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You want to take the whole vote again? I have been advised that as the matter has finished\u2014the bill has had its third reading\u2014that is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c65799291c64261942809e35a0eac58\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to have it recorded in Hansard that the Green Party, the Mana Party, and Independent MP Brendan Horan wish to vote in the negative on the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill, which the House was previously dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc3a5513cbe9480b9f5df80419bc7616\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc3a5513cbe9480b9f5df80419bc7616\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, of course you can seek leave. The reality is that the House is the master of its own destiny. The member has sought leave, and then it is up to the members to decide what they want to do. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is. Thank you. But it is in Hansard, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2e4afd7739d471a94165de292c57a97\u0022\u003EGame Animal Council Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002252c1a9a9a0fa4df6ba44633ddb493fea\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000105\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00222ae9cadc3bf94d09856297804cc57507\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ae9cadc3bf94d09856297804cc57507\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to talk on the Game Animal Council Bill because it is an important bill. I think that it is all about a sensible and intelligent use of the conservation estate so that more people, more New Zealanders, can get out there and enjoy our natural environment. As has been discussed today in the House, the Local Government and Environment Committee worked hard on this bill. We really wanted to deliver for two stakeholders. We walked a fine line to make sure that we delivered for the hunting community, which is passionate about this bill, but we also wanted to deliver for the environment and for conservation. Hunting and conservation are not mutually exclusive. We all want to see more people out and about, and more recreationists out in our great outdoors, because recreation is often the pathway to conservation. When you speak to recreationists, whether they be hunters, shooters, fishermen, or mountain bikers\u2014the people who are out there\u2014they are the first to extol the beauty of our natural environment and to be very sure that they want to see it protected. Hunting is a hugely popular recreational activity in New Zealand, and many hunters, along with other recreationists, whether they are fishermen or trampers or mountain bikers or climbers, are also passionately committed to looking after our environment, and contribute actively to practical, on-the-ground conservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis bill will give hunters a greater say in their sport, just like fishermen have through Fish and Game, and it will also provide the Minister of Conservation with a valuable stream of advice regarding recreational and guided trophy hunting of tahr, chamois, deer, and wild pigs. Again, it is a balance between giving the hunters more say and providing the Minister of Conservation with more abilities to look after the conservation estate. The Game Animal Council Bill provides a framework for collaborative management by stakeholders of this animal resource. It will ensure that the animals are permitted in only identified, less sensitive areas, and are well managed, and that the natural environment is monitored. This, of course, will be a much better proposition for the environment than the present situation, where stakeholders tend to be divided, there is no process for shared knowledge or for goals, and there is no opportunity to manage these animals in a much more efficient way. So we believe that this bill will provide a win-win. It will provide a better hunting experience for our recreationists but it will also manage and conserve our natural environment more effectively. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00225b962f22f24a40718421e2ef153ddd45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b962f22f24a40718421e2ef153ddd45\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Game Animal Council Bill. When this bill was first presented to the House we were not particularly impressed with it. New Zealand First thought that it was, in its first drafting, somewhat of a sop to the Hon Peter Dunne just to satisfy the Government\u2019s confidence and supply agreement with United Future, and that the Government was perhaps just giving lip-service to it initially as a result of that. We opposed the bill at the time, but we were confident that if it went to a select committee and was given the proper light of day, huge improvements could be made to it\u2014and that turned out to be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EI would like to commend the Local Government and Environment Committee, which I am on, for the work that was done on this bill, because the bill is considerably changed from the original bill. The committee heard submissions in both Wellington and Christchurch. There were over 600 submissions in total, and many were heard orally. Our hearings in Christchurch were an interesting experience. They were held at the International Antarctic Centre, by the airport. It was not foreseen, but through the wall from the hearings room a movie of Antarctica was going on. It was on a 30-minute loop, with a large crescendo of loud music and sound. Jacqui Dean, Paul Goldsmith, and others will recall that it was somewhat ironic that as many of the submitters were getting to the end of their various presentations, coincidentally there was a loud growth, a crescendo, of music and sound. It was somewhat ironic, and people commented that they did not expect to have a musical accompaniment to their submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba259ecedd24987853421843d55c996\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Surreal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f918e65a7ec4441abb52a516c3f69509\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: It was quite surreal, but it was quite fitting. Many of those comments and statements were being made by many parties from across a sector that is involved in game animals, hunting, recreation, and conservation, and it was very appropriate that they had a musical background to them. But it was good to see so many people coming together from all those interests, and I would like to congratulate all those who did so, many of whom had been involved on the Game Animal Council Establishment Committee for the last 5 or 6 years to get it to this point, particularly the likes of Garry Ottmann, who chaired that committee, which brought much of the thinking together to where it is today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt was also very good to see in Christchurch an old colleague of mine Tom Williams, who led the delegation there and spoke on behalf of quite a number of the entities. Tom was the former chairman of the New Zealand Game Industry Board many years ago when I was in the venison industry. Tom has huge experience from across the deer industry and the game industry, and it was very good to see Tom again taking a lead role in bringing so many of those entities together as one voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt really was impressive. You know, there are really many different factions involved in recreational hunting, in commercial hunting, in commercial deer operations, and in commercial farming that impact on the conservation estate, where wild animals can interact with farmed animals, and deer farms, as well. It was very good to see so many of those people coming together with one voice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe Game Animal Council Bill will bring many of the parties together in a council that will have between nine and 11 representatives. It is good to see that it will be independently chaired, and the select committee made some recommendations on this. Clause 12(1A) states: \u201CThe Minister must appoint as chairperson a member of the Council whom the Minister considers has the appropriate management and conflict resolution skills to chair the Council.\u201D Our committee thought that it was very important that whoever is appointed as chair of this, because there are many factions involved, must have the ability to chair it and bring those parties together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill also provides a balance between the Department of Conservation and conservation principles and the recreational and commercial hunting sector. We believe that it achieves a good balance so that both sides are able to come to this council in one collective place and express the interests of all those involved in the many activities out there in the conservation estate and in the wild. It provides for the designation of herds of special interest and will improve the management of the likes of chamois, deer, tahr, and wild pigs. The bill allows the Minister of Conservation to define locations on conservation land and designate a herd of game animals as a herd of special interest specifically for recreational hunting without adversely affecting other users or biodiversity values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe included in our recommendations on the bill things such as the council would be subject to LGOIMA\u2014the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act\u2014so that the council will be required to provide information, as other local authorities in New Zealand are now required to provide official information, on their meetings and their correspondence. The council must notify the Minister of the adoption of any procedure as soon as it is reasonably practical after it has been adopted. So, again, this council will have to keep the Minister well-informed of its intentions so that it can be monitored all the way through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt was interesting too that we recommended in terms of the trophy export levy, in clause 22, that \u201CA person must not export a game trophy from New Zealand that is a souvenir of an animal hunted and killed in New Zealand on or after the day this Act comes into force unless the person pays to the Council the game trophy export levy prescribed \u2026\u201D in this Act. Again, this is a good thing, because it does mean that highly prized game trophies will be charged a levy to be determined by the council and recommended to the Minister. Again, these sorts of things can only be good to help improve the return and to then be able to have funding to go back into the estate itself and into managing the herds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn terms of funding, again we provided for fees for hunting any animal that is part of a herd of special interest and for the game export trophy levies. Again, there needs to be some form of funding to cover this. It does come at a cost, but it is a necessary cost because at the end of the day all those involved will benefit from it. A nominal cost that is the result of this can only be good for the overall management of the herd in ensuring that this is continued well into the future for this generation and future generations to be able to enjoy the great wild and the recreational sport that this involves, and for commercial hunting as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that I believe is good in this bill is that there will be a review of the Act no later than 3 years after the commencement. That provides for Parliament to ensure that the council, its activities, and what comes out of this whole piece of legislation are monitored. The legislation will not be perfect, there will be some teething problems, no doubt, and there will be a settling-down and bedding-in process while it all comes to be. But it is good that there will be a review within 3 years, and, as a result of that, I am sure that any minor discrepancies or oversights in this bill will be picked up and addressed by a future amendment, perhaps, in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is supporting this bill. We think that the considerable changes that were put through as a result of the submissions and listening to the parties involved are good ones. We believe the bill is a step forward for this sector. We commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00225006c987663a4baa9642ac29415c1069\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225006c987663a4baa9642ac29415c1069\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Jacqueline Dean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228850618a13a24a71a36e86865bd2491c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228850618a13a24a71a36e86865bd2491c\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Good call. The Game Animal Council Bill delivers on the Government\u2019s 2008 and also 2011 confidence and supply agreements with United Future. It also reflects the work done under United Future\u2019s 2005 confidence and supply agreement with the then Labour Government. The game animal panel, which was chaired by Margaret Austin and included more than 4,000 public submissions, recommended that a statutory organisation be established to represent the interests of hunters of large game animals and to undertake the management of recreational, guided, and commercial hunting. An establishment committee was set up to undertake further public consultation on what the structure, the membership, and the functions of the council might be. Its recommendations, widely consulted on, have been incorporated into this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis legislation, this bill, creates a Game Animal Council, which will advise and make recommendations to the Minister of Conservation on behalf of the hunting community on a range of hunting-related issues. The council will also be delegated powers to manage herds of special interest to hunters for the purpose of recreational hunting. I was interested to hear comments from the Green Party in relation to the fact that, in its view, this is a bill that is non-inclusive. Well, I could not argue the contrary more strongly, because the membership of the Game Animal Council will have people with knowledge and experience in areas such as recreational and commercial hunting, deer farming, safari park operations, meat processing and exporting, hunting-related tourism, M\u0101ori hunting interests, hunting-related research, farming generally, forestry, and also nature conservation. So I would like to know from the Green members, and they might care to take a call\u2014what is so exclusive about that? This is a good bill and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c79cec94be7942d5a31be7a4eb5f981d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c79cec94be7942d5a31be7a4eb5f981d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002200a2b4491baf42a798ef00c5104dd571\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200a2b4491baf42a798ef00c5104dd571\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, good choice. Labour supported this Game Animal Control Bill going to the Local Government and Environment Committee because we have for a long time recognised that we need to have, I guess, a more robust and certain system around the management of game animals in this country and, of course, the protection of the conservation estate. The bill has been considered by the select committee and a number of changes were made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour, at this point, is not supporting the bill because, I guess, in summary, this is an MMP bill. It is really about a deal that has been done, a political deal, to push ahead something that in the end is not ideal and not truly fit for purpose. We do need to have protection for the conservation estate. At a time when the Government has squeezed funding for the Department of Conservation, it is little wonder that staunch conservationists are a little bit edgy and concerned and paranoid, some might say, that it is all going to be shifted on to the private sector, with deals done in a partnership model, and that we are then going to shift the control of pests and wild animals on to the hunters. They are a little bit paranoid about that\u2014hence their concerns, from what we have seen and certainly in some of the Supplementary Order Papers that are coming up. It is understandable, perhaps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt comes down to a philosophical divide about what we have conservation and public lands for in this country. We are talking about exotic animals. They have been introduced into the country just as trout have been. For those fish we have quite a robust system of protection that treats them almost as if they are an indigenous species. They are not. We have accepted that as part of mainstream management for the good of New Zealand as a whole. We are trying to establish a similar regime with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAn independent Game Animal Council is, I guess, in theory, a good thing, as long as it works in with the Department of Conservation. This will establish a point of conflict, and there is debate about what that might mean. The elephant in the room, if you like, of course, is the one of 1080 and its use throughout the country. I come from the West Coast, an area that has been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022698803895c794507b602fe3d0d9d688b\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: An elephant in Sri Lanka.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279aa276e438c407ea441619196e564ad\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: An elephant in Sri Lanka. It will be here. It will almost be in the room soon\u2014when John Key comes back tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c303de0278e6425c9480ee1cfd5d2053\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc8e952b2b947038afbcd2a7ba38d02\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill\u2014I am sorry, I have been distracted. Thank you. I will be back on target. It is a philosophical divide about whether we should use 1080 to control possums or not. Coming from a region like the West Coast, we know that it is an essential tool to not only control bovine tuberculosis in animals but also protect the spectacular national parks we have. There has been over time some by-kill, if you like\u2014bycatch or by-kill\u2014that is, when spreading the 1080, deer have been killed. Staunch conservationists think that that is a great idea\u2014kill anything that is not native. However, the hunters think that they should have access to a recreational activity that gets them out in the bush, that keeps them fit, and that has been part and parcel of the New Zealand way of life\u2014in fact, people have survived by eating venison. But if in the end the Game Animal Council here was to stop the use of 1080, as the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has alerted us to, then that is not progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have had an assurance from the hunting sector, from Garry Ottmann, that that is not one of the things that the Game Animal Council would do. I welcome that assurance. However, it is a contentious point in the hunting fraternity. There have been changes to the 1080 bait put out there in order to try to minimise the by-kill and to not inadvertently or unnecessarily kill deer. But you still come back to the core philosophical debate about whether there should be deer, tahr, or chamois in the conservation estate at all. There are Supplementary Order Papers on the Table that attempt to ensure that there are no managed herds in any of the conservation estate or national parks. I do not quite accept that, because the reality for tahr and chamois is that they are often in national parks. This is indeed where the objective of the bill will play out. Either we have them in national parks or we do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe other reality we are dealing with is a Department of Conservation that is squeezed for resources is that it will never be able to control or exterminate wild animals in the conservation estate or, indeed, even in areas of high natural values. So there will be a reliance on hunters to assist in that control and, where necessary, extermination. But there are some double standards. In wilderness areas, for example, people are not able to use air access into these areas for recreational purposes such as rafting or tramping. However, they are able to use air access for the control of wild animals. If one were to be very pure about it, we would say that there should be no air access at all. So, in summary, there are a number of slight contradictions across the whole of the conservation estate that have been put in place for best management purposes. The issue here is to ensure that if this bill proceeds, we have a Game Animal Council that works in the best interests of conservation and the hunters\u2014not exclusively one against the other. We do support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAn aside, but one that will have an impact on the kinds of recreational control that can occur, is the issue of venison. We had a huge deer population in this country until the practice of farming, and the value of the meat itself, got to a level where people saw the economic driver to get out and kill deer. Indeed, that was what we needed to do to drive down the numbers to actually see the restoration of a whole lot of natural values across the conservation estate. We were overrun with deer, there was a commercial value put on them, and we saw the extermination of them in some necessary areas. The fact that the meat industry is dysfunctional and has lost and is leaving opportunities on the table all around the world means that the value of venison is nowhere near where it should be. If the Government was to get on and sort out the meat industry and put a decent value on venison, I think we would see real activity from the hunting fraternity to get out and help control deer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour is not supporting the bill at this point, not because we do not want to support hunters to get out and enjoy the conservation estate and assist the Department of Conservation to control wild animals in areas but because we think it is actually going to create some tension that will be ongoing between the department and the Game Animal Council. I am comforted by reassurances from Garry Ottmann on behalf of the hunting sector that they will indeed do their best to work together. I hope that that does indeed happen. But when it comes to the issue of 1080, as a West Coast MP and former dairy farmer, I am staunch. We must be able to continue to use 1080 in the conservation estate to control the exotic pests that frequent there. It is not just deer; it is stoats, it is weasels, and it is possums. We need to do that; otherwise, the future of this country as an economic exporter of meat is at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI welcome the opportunity to speak more on a number of particular technical issues in the bill through the Committee stage, but can I say that Labour supports hunters. We want people to get out into the outdoors. We want them to help the Department of Conservation to kill unwanted pests\u2014anything they can hit. Stoats would be great. That is a very challenging target, I would have to say, but if we could have a bounty on them, that would be great. But on the issue of deer, chamois, and tahr, we need to ensure that there is appropriate control but that we protect the opportunities for people who do make a great effort to get out and hunt them. So we will work through. We want the best outcome here. We are just concerned that perhaps the Government has not got it quite right in its proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a2d5989c754f328b64003c4ea721f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a2d5989c754f328b64003c4ea721f2\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the second reading of the Game Animal Council Bill. It is sponsored by the Minister of Conservation, Nick Smith. Many of the details of this piece of legislation have been tracked through by the Minister and by Nicky Wagner, the chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee, which has ushered through this longstanding piece of legislation. It has been around since 2005. Peter Dunne had it as part of a confidence and supply agreement with the then Labour-led Government, so it emerges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe had a lot of discussion at the select committee about the various elements of definition and about such vexed issues as what constitutes a herd of special interest to hunters. We resolved that it would be deer, chamois, tahr, and wild pigs. There is a lot of other game out there to be hunted. National obviously supports the recreational pastime of hunting. There is a sense of entitlement for New Zealanders to be able to go out and shoot. In many occasions, what they are doing for their recreational pleasure and interest is also enhancing conservation values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EOne of the things that stood out for me at the select committee was the work that was done by the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation. I think that is a really successful example of how recreational hunters can work in with conservation. That foundation has been managing the effects that deer have had on the environment of Fiordland for around about 7 or 8 years, and the conservation and recreational hunting interests are in a very good balance. The recreational hunters, for example, have been responsible for 70 kilometres of predator lines to control stoats and rats, in partnership with the Department of Conservation. They have released blue ducklings, which have come back into Fiordland now. And recreational hunters have funded the removal of thousands of non - wapiti-type deer. What this shows us is an example of how the Game Animal Council can work when it gets up and running. As Peter Dunne said, he hopes it will be a reality early in the new year. I support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI think it is a lost opportunity that Labour is not supporting this bill. I am not surprised that the Greens are not. There is nothing new there. I would echo the sentiments of the previous speaker, Damien O\u2019Connor, who just sat down, about 1080. I too have spent time on the West Coast of the South Island recently. I am aware of the issues that are prevalent around New Zealand when it comes to possum control and pest control. I commend the use of 1080 and would hope that others might take the time to read the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s report on it. She has done a very good job of looking at the science of it and the way in which it actually works. So I think that those who are not aware should make themselves more informed before they state a view. But when and where 1080 is used is a debate for another occasion, as are some of the key messages within this piece of legislation, which I will come back to in more detail at other readings. I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1417d59c557496abd887599a4cd9d1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1417d59c557496abd887599a4cd9d1f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to advise the House that this is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022a178c1e910e14d54bd193948f3d52a60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a178c1e910e14d54bd193948f3d52a60\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a split call with the Green Party on the second reading of the Game Animal Council Bill. I have got a couple of questions. Why are we debating this bill in urgency, and why are we debating this bill at all? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhy are we debating this bill in urgency? Well, there can only be one reason. The regulatory impact statement on this bill is dated 17 March 2011. The work was commenced in 2008 by the then Minister of Conservation, Steve Chadwick, who engaged with the Hon Peter Dunne to talk about wild game animals and the control of wild animals through hunting and through conservation measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EOne of the things that came out of that conversation was that there was a range of statutory possibilities available. It is unfortunate that the Government has chosen to pursue entirely the wrong statutory option, and this is the lost opportunity. It is not the one that the previous speaker, Maggie Barry, spoke of, but this is the lost opportunity. Instead of being able to have an advisory committee established by the Minister of Conservation under the terms of the Wild Animal Control Act, we have a stand-alone Game Animal Council, which costs money and has its own statutory authority\u2014its own legislation, in fact. It would have been more effective and less damaging to the relationships in this highly contested and quite fractious area to provide the authority for an advisory committee to be set up under the Wild Animal Control Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn fact, if that was not enough for the Government, it would have been possible to amend the Wild Animal Control Act to ensure that the advisory committee could not be disestablished by the Minister. There are advisory committees under that Act at the moment, but the Minister has the ability to disestablish them at any time. If the Government really wanted to give teeth to this proposal, instead of escalating it into a bill, a statute of its own, it could have just said that this is an advisory committee under the Wild Animal Control Act, the Minister is establishing it, and the Minister will not have the power to disestablish it. That would have been sufficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhat we have now is a bill that is going to work against the common interests of the hunting fraternity and the Department of Conservation. There have been tensions for a long time between those two groups, but this bill does not help. This bill makes it worse, in fact. This bill makes those relationships inevitably more fractious. Why would the Government want to do that when there was conversation happening, where interests on both sides were being taken into account, and when there is a deal of common interest because of the damage that wild animals do to our biodiversity, to our environment? So there is a deal of common interest there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe only reason I can think of that the Government has chosen the heavy-duty legislative option is to appease the Hon Peter Dunne, because he was upset at being told that John Banks would be welcomed back to the Prime Minister\u2019s Cabinet but he would not be. I can only assume that this bill turning up in urgency, after a regulatory impact statement written more than 2 years ago, is to appease the Hon Peter Dunne. That is not a model of democratic process. So I am sorry to all our visitors in the gallery who are here today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e654ab9b384012a360419c56566f4a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1894661ea3b482dbd7900d5e5d7d674\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bc2a3ef9e2a4ab3bd0667b450b2b090\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I was actually indicating that it was inappropriate to speak to the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a446978bb522487ca625fa91059b3d4a\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is what I thought. How much more\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdc7ceae8fb24a0da9c212d43c917493\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time is nearly up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c22845ae2ae4216834ad5b918370397\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: I will speak further about this in the Committee stage. I cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00227e51fc13d5e74425bbe45ce513c53f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e51fc13d5e74425bbe45ce513c53f78\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u00222db498ed98554490bd0ddca3c470feb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222db498ed98554490bd0ddca3c470feb1\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E On television at the moment there seems to be a resurgence in magic shows. I guess we might call them illusionists rather than magicians. Those of us who have been around a bit know that they accomplish their tricks through a combination of hypnosis and diversion. I want to suggest that something similar is going on here, because we have had a number of Government speakers stand up in the House and talk about how this bill, the Game Animal Council Bill, is a bill to further the interests of recreational hunters. In fact, the Government intends in the next stage that this House considers, the Committee stage, to remove all reference to recreational hunters from the bill. Recreational hunters out there around the country will be thinking that this is a bill for them. Actually, it is not. Instead, it is a bill for the top end of the commercial tourism hunting scene\u2014the trophy hunters, those who are paying the big bucks to get the big bucks. The Government is accomplishing that same trick of pretending that this is a bill for recreational hunters in order to garner support while, in fact, advancing the interests of only a few. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI feel sorry, I guess, for the Deerstalkers Association, which has been calling for a greater say for so many years in this country. In fact, the bill that is being delivered is one that will not deliver it a greater say. It will not even need to be consulted by this Game Animal Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIt is not quite true to say that that particular part of the commercial hunting scene is the only winner out of this bill and that everyone else will pay. In his contribution to this debate, Peter Dunne said that it was a red-letter day for recreational hunters. Of course, that is an absurd claim, but actually it is a red-letter day for Peter Dunne. I congratulate him in a political way on being able to parlay his United Future conference speech into getting a bill advanced through the remainder of its stages in urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI guess the political drivers behind advancing this bill are clear, both from the use of urgency to get this bill into law, as Maryan Street has just talked about to the House, and also the history of this bill, which has been outlined to the House today by Jacqui Dean. This is a bill that has been hanging around and that no Government has actually wanted to proceed with because it is a poor bill. This Government has now been forced to do that for political reasons. I say it is for political reasons because this was a bill that was opposed by, for example\u2014let us see\u2014the State Services Commission, Treasury, the former Ministry of Economic Development, the former Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and the Food Safety Authority. All of those State agencies opposed the bill, along with every environmental and conservation organisation in this country. This is not a bill for conservation at all; it is a bill for Peter Dunne and for a tiny group of those commercial recreational hunters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI am going to talk some more at further stages, but I want to just signal that as one of the few members of this House\u2014perhaps the only one\u2014who has served on a conservation board, the West Coast Tai Poutini Conservation Board, it is very clear that the existing law already provides for the kind of input into decision making that was being sought by recreational hunters. The existing law already provided for that. As other speakers have said, if more was required, amendments to the Wild Animal Control Act could have provided for that. This bill is completely unnecessary. On the West Coast Tai Poutini Conservation Board we had recreational hunters represented. We dealt very frequently with issues that were raised by recreational hunters. Those procedures were entirely adequate to deal with those concerns. I want to wrap up there and come back at a later stage to the further points I want to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022130873448949497ba3a634eca0b6e286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022130873448949497ba3a634eca0b6e286\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take the last call in the second reading of the Game Animal Council Bill. I cast my mind back to the many, many hours that we, the Local Government and Environment Committee, spent listening to submissions on this bill\u2014a very wide range of submissions. There is no doubt that hunting is a hugely popular recreational activity in New Zealand and that people feel very strongly about it. In fact, I took my research very seriously and went out hunting for the first time a few months ago, and I learnt firsthand the dangers of being too close to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba500760b9d44893b0d8f61fe4d85822\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: How much did Simon charge you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272695a1d463343a5a4cd84c499ee8822\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014I learnt how dangerous it is to get one\u2019s eye too close to the scope when firing a weapon. That was something I learnt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe Game Animal Council Bill, which is part of National\u2019s confidence and supply agreement with United Future, will have hunters\u2019 interests at the forefront, and will also engage practically with conservation, local and Government authorities, and other sector groups. We will be hearing more about this over the next few stages, and I do not want to delay the House any further. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002210173464556b42cfb14d4031d309242e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Game Animal Council Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecb6f454d6a842e5ac20a32dc0ae711c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad23aac60f2f4a6caa347ea7dca04808\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary and key provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe20d19e9e9541dc91b22d4d8db178ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe20d19e9e9541dc91b22d4d8db178ef\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I had been hoping that the Minister with responsibility for the Game Animal Council Bill might be in the chair. Hopefully the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Murray McCully, is able to answer some questions we have about Supplementary Order Paper 395. I am not sure that that face really inspires confidence that we are going to get an answer to all our questions, but we will give it a go\u2014we will give it a go. The Minister of Conservation, Nick Smith, has introduced Supplementary Order Paper 395, and I really hope that the Minister is going to take a call on it, because it does actually appear to quite seriously change everything that we did at the Local Government and Environment Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to refer specifically to the proposed changes to clause 16 in Part 1 of this bill, where we are removing the word \u201Crecreational\u201D. So we are going to replace \u201Cmanaged for recreational hunting purposes\u201D with \u201Cmanaged for hunting purposes\u201D. Given that the entire purpose of this bill was meant to be around recreational hunting, I am really worried about what that change means, and whether that completely undermines everything we did in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhen this bill went through the select committee we were very cognisant of the job that was before us to manage the tensions between the recreational hunting community and the Department of Conservation. That really was our focus. We were recognising the value of the recreational hunting community, recognising that there were actually a number of common goals between the Department of Conservation and the recreational hunting community, and that there were existing relationships that were already very good. There were some existing relationships that were very, very bad, but there was enough common ground for us to work on, to bring together the recreational hunting community and those purposes, where they aligned with the Department of Conservation\u2019s vision and aspirations around pest control and the management of the Department of Conservation estate. So when I see in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395 on Part 1 of this bill that we are removing the word \u201Crecreational\u201D from the legislation, it is deeply concerning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI hope that the Minister in the chair, even if this is an issue that he has to come up to speed with very quickly, is able to get some advice from officials. It is not looking good, is it? It is not looking good. Given that this could potentially completely change the entire purpose of the bill\u2014and the member Peter Dunne mentioned heli-hunting in his contribution, or whatever new name we have given it to make it sound not so awful\u2014I would like to know what this means, in terms of the discussions we had at the select committee around the hunting of trophy animals from helicopters. If we are now saying that this is no longer about recreational hunting interests, and it is just about all hunting interests, that is a completely different kettle of fish, and different from every conversation we had at select committee. It might be that this is some minor technical amendment that does not actually change a lot or that is designed for a specific purpose, but I think the very first thing we need in this debate is some clarification from the Minister in the chair around what that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhy did we have a select committee process that spent all its time focusing on how the interests of recreational hunters worked in with the interests of the Department of Conservation and the general public, on behalf of whom the Minister of Conservation is a steward of that land? Why did we go through all that if suddenly this bill is going to be about all hunting interests? I wonder whether it is because maybe we went down the path, in terms of setting out how we were going to pay for this Game Animal Council, of basing its fees on the number of trophy hunters. And maybe the Government just wants a whole lot more of those, but I wondered whether it might be something that the Hon Peter Dunne might be able to refer to. For us, this is very concerning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EJust so that I can let the member know what our concerns are about, we have been focused on recreational hunters. This amendment now takes the word \u201Crecreational\u201D out, and to me that is a major change. It is not something that was ever flagged at the select committee. If there was an issue with keeping the word \u201Crecreational\u201D in there at the select committee, I do not know why it was not raised with us then, albeit it was decades ago that we had this bill at the select committee. Maybe the Hon Peter Dunne would be able to take a call on this Supplementary Order Paper 395 from Nick Smith and explain why in clause 16 we are changing \u201Cmanaged for recreational hunting purposes\u201D to \u201Cmanaged for hunting purposes\u201D. That does seem like a big change to us, and in light of the comments he made about heli-hunting as well, it would be good to get some clarification around exactly what that is trying to achieve and to allay concerns on this side of the Chamber that it is not actually going to make worse a bill that we are already concerned about and take the focus off recreational hunting, which was what we understood to be the entire purpose of this legislation. So I look forward to getting some clarification on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn terms of the rest of Part 1 of the bill, when you look at the purposes of this bill in clause 3, they are: \u201C(a) to establish the Game Animal Council and provide for its functions; and (b) to create powers for the Minister to manage herds of special interest; and (c) to allow the Minister to delegate his or her powers to the Council; and (d) to provide for fees and levies to fund the Council and its functions.\u201D Our question would be, again, whether this is an appropriate way to achieve the purposes, the policy intentions of this particular piece of legislation, especially given that the official advice from Treasury and the Department of Conservation has been that this is not the way to go. Their advice was that this path has the most regulatory burden and has the highest costs, and, in fact, there were other options available to the Government that would have been far easier, that would have built on existing relationships, that would have built on existing functions, that would have identified where those relationships did not exist, and that would have done so with far less regulatory burden and at a much lower cost. When you consider that the funding for this bill\u2014$100,000 in the first year and then $50,000 per year after that\u2014is going to have to come from money that is reprioritised within the Department of Conservation, then it becomes even clearer that this pathway and the pathway set out in clause 3, \u201CPurposes\u201D, in the bill is not the appropriate legislative pathway to be taking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis legislation has been a long time in the making. This is work that started under the previous Labour Government. The advisory panel provided advice, none of which is really represented in this piece of legislation, and when you look at what we have come up with, there were far simpler ways to do it that could have actually been done a lot quicker\u2014a lot quicker. They could have been done under existing legislation, either within ministerial powers that already existed, which would not have required legislation at all, or through an amendment to existing legislation, which would have been far simpler than what we see in Part 1 of this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI know that part of the concern around simply using existing legislative or regulatory tools, such as the ability of the Minister of Conservation to set up a special committee to look into this, was about the power of the Minister in that role. These are always tensions that we have to manage in legislation regarding the Department of Conservation. It used to be the case that the Minister of Conservation had sole responsibility for all activities on the conservation estate, as the guardian of that conservation estate on behalf of all New Zealanders. What we continue to see is an undermining of that role, and I think that in Part 1 of the bill we see this again. We have had successive pieces of legislation that have taken away the ability of the Minister of Conservation to carry out that very, very crucial role, and, again, here in Part 1 of the bill we see that further undermining, but for no gain. It is not saying that you cannot have some of the devolution that we see here from the Minister and from the department to other groups where there are shared goals, where there are shared common interests, and where those tensions can be managed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn that respect, a lot of what we see in Part 1, and what we will see in the debate on it represents a lost opportunity. I do not think there is any question that there were enormous gains to be made here that would have benefited all parties who were in the process, and that was very clear at the select committee when we heard from submitters. When we expected to see a much more polarised debate, what we actually saw was a lot of people coming together wanting to talk about what they wanted to achieve in common. They wanted to highlight where those tensions did lie, but they said: \u201CThese are not tensions that cannot be managed, and these are not tensions that we cannot find a way through, and if we cannot, we will just agree to disagree.\u201D There was a lot of goodwill from all sides of the debate, and that is why I feel that this really is a lost opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI am going to end my contribution there, but I do come back to the amendment to clause 16 on the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper on the bill. It would be really good to have some clarification around that, because that does seem like quite a wholesale shift away from what we were trying to achieve at the select committee and what the policy intentions were stated to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba9f7f716ea644849c0e2e8b306785f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba9f7f716ea644849c0e2e8b306785f0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to comment on two points that have arisen in the debate so far. The first is to just discuss this question of why the Game Animal Council Bill is being progressed at this time. At the end of the second reading Kevin Hague made reference to magic and illusions, and I accosted him on the stairwell shortly thereafter and said that I thought that was a good description of his speech, as well. There is no sinister reason or untoward motive for the timing of the bill\u2019s passage being now; it is simply that certain things with regard to certain concessions have expiry dates. The council needs to be in place to give effect to either the renewal or the changes of those concessions as soon as possible. Indeed, in my ideal world, this bill would have been passed much earlier this year, but that is another story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e541f84a5654d87a18a7418be39f2eb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s hardly had an ideal world this year. I share his position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223612bb7f39af4ec49cf4d15ef7446791\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: It has been an interesting year, and perhaps that member and I should get together to mutually commiserate at some stage. I want to come back to the questions that have been raised about clause 16. I just draw members\u2019 attention to Supplementary Order Paper 395, and also to the changes that are being made to clause 7, because they need to be seen in tandem. What happened, if I can recall the history very briefly, was that at the time that the bill was being drafted, we specifically excluded a number of what might be described as the private sector operators from its purview because we did not want to infringe on property rights, etc. Once the bill came back from the Local Government and Environment Committee, the Government received submissions from a whole range of those groups. They came to see me. There were the tourism operators and there was a range of groups basically saying that they wanted to be brought under the purview of the legislation. We had previously excluded them. I said: \u201CYou give me your letter with your signatures to this, and we will make the changes.\u201D That is what happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI should draw to the Committee\u2019s attention, because it has just come to my notice\u2014some 15 minutes ago, in fact\u2014an email that I received this morning from Mr Garry Ottmann, who has been listening to the debate. He has been quoted favourably by members from all sides during the course of this debate, and I just want to read his comments on this issue, which relates to clause 16. He said: \u201CThe removal of the word \u2018recreational\u2019 means that this bill will actually benefit all hunters in New Zealand. The council is there to serve the interests of all hunters.\u201D That is a direct quote from Garry Ottmann, the chair of the establishment committee, this morning. So I say to the Committee that the concerns that have been raised about whether the removal of the reference to recreational hunters limits the scope of the bill in terms of the ability to cover their interests are, in fact, invalid. What we are doing is becoming much more all-encompassing and, in fact, the scope of the Game Animal Council is being increased significantly by the amendments, which have the buy-in of all of the major players, that are made on the Minister of Conservation\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo a lot has been made of the need to get consensus, of the need to get people working in the same direction, and of the need to get people broadly having an agreement about the direction in which we should be travelling. All of that has been achieved\u2014in fact, it is one of the reasons why the bill has taken so long to get to this point. But it comes, essentially, as a package now, agreed to by all of the interests in the sector, and the final bit of the jigsaw that needs to be put in place is its passage, because basically people cannot wait for that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo I think that although I understand the concern that has been raised, a lot of that is a debating point. In reality, this is a broadening of the bill\u2019s coverage. It will ensure that the concerns that a number of the members opposite have raised about just to whom the council will be talking, whether it will be able to consult widely enough, and whether it will be put into a narrow box are, in fact, being addressed. I think they are positive changes. They are certainly changes that I was working on at the time that I was interrupted in my duties and certainly ones that I would strongly support, because they are in the best interests of what the Game Animal Council was set up to achieve. It is not being set up to be a lobby group. It is being set up to be an entity to manage the interests of the recreational and other hunting sectors in New Zealand to deal with a number of the critical issues that affect them, both in terms of things like safety and in terms of specific issues like aerially assisted trophy hunting and access. I think that the breadth is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere is one other matter that I will comment on very briefly. Mr O\u2019Connor raised during the second reading issues relating to 1080. He and I may have a different view about the impact of 1080, but it is not part of this bill, and I would be very surprised if it was an area where the Game Animal Council would want to traverse very significantly, at all. I am pretty certain that in the event that it did so, then in that eventuality it would come up against some pretty stiff political opposition from the entrenched interest. I think the issue\u2014and I say this with the greatest of respect\u2014is a red herring in this particular debate. I am not saying that it is not significant in other contexts, but in the context of this bill and this council, it is not all that relevant and is, therefore, a red herring. I think that what is contained in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395 satisfactorily addresses a number of concerns that have been addressed. It also ensures that the council will be able to function effectively. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd07ab68058643fa98e8c944b1064197\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd07ab68058643fa98e8c944b1064197\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E That is a very interesting explanation from one of the sponsors of the Game Animal Council Bill, Peter Dunne\u2014even though the bill is not in his name\u2014because I think that the recreational hunters in New Zealand and the Deerstalkers Association have been sold a pup with this amendment. If it is so anodyne, then why was it not brought to the Local Government and Environment Committee to consider? Why is it being pushed through under urgency? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ERecreational hunters are being cut out of the bill through the Minister of Conservation\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395 because it removes the word \u201Crecreational\u201D wherever it occurs. That means that the Game Animal Council will have to liaise only with hunters and hunting organisations, not recreational hunting organisations such as the Deerstalkers Association. It means that when the Minister is appointing members to the Game Animal Council, he will not need to include anyone on the Game Animal Council who has knowledge or experience of recreational hunting; he has only to have somebody who has more general knowledge of hunting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe most fundamental change that this Supplementary Order Paper brings in is that herds of special interest will not have to be managed for recreational hunting purposes. They will have to be managed just for hunting. That means that the Game Animal Council potentially can manage these herds as a private recreational resource not for the benefit of Kiwi hunters but for well-heeled trophy hunters. This is another example of a Government by the 1 percent for the 1 percent. Nick Smith should be ashamed of himself, given that he was on the select committee and he heard the passion of recreational hunters for their activity. This Supplementary Order Paper cuts right across that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is interesting, is it not, that instead of Mr Dunne relying on advice from the Department of Conservation\u2014an independent public sector agency\u2014for what the clauses mean, he is relying on Garry Ottmann, who has got a very narrow sector interest in this and has been one of the major promoters of the bill. What we are seeing here is that the Government, just as it penalised recreational fishers with its changes to the daily catch of snapper, is, through this legislation, penalising recreational hunters by cutting their voice out, by making sure that they do not have a seat around the table for the Game Animal Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhy this is so dangerous is that the bill provides for the Game Animal Council to make recommendations to the Minister on how it is going to recover its costs to run this 11-member council. It allows the Minister then to make recommendations, through an Order in Council, to set fees and levies. The fees and levies for a hunter to be able to go hunting on Rakiura / Stewart Island for white-tailed deer at the moment are about $30, as the Department of Conservation covers its administration costs. If you have got the Game Animal Council, with no recreational hunter representatives on it, setting or recommending to the Minister the fees and levies for hunting white-tailed deer\u2014if they become a herd of special interest\u2014they may be in the thousands of dollars. Similarly with tahr\u2014unaffordable for Kiwi hunters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThat is why for this Supplementary Order Paper we need much more explanation. We need it from the Department of Conservation, from officials, not from Garry Ottmann, about what this Supplementary Order Paper means. My reading of it is that by stripping out those references to \u201Crecreational\u201D, it will reduce the voice of recreational hunters. They will not have a seat at the table in the Game Animal Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other major concerns about the bill is the impact it will have on commercial deer recovery. Damien O\u2019Connor talked about the huge benefit that commercial venison recovery had in reducing deer numbers several decades ago. They shoot about 18,000 animals a year. They save the Department of Conservation several million dollars in pest control culling costs, and yet those operators made extensive submissions to the select committee about the potential impact that this bill would have on them because of the increasing intolerance that some sectors of the hunting community have towards wild animal recovery operations and commercial recovery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAt the moment, those wild animal recovery operators are prohibited from being able to commercially recover deer and venison in recreational hunting areas, which cover about 187,000 hectares. It is likely that the Game Animal Council will not want them to operate in any areas where you have got a herd of special interest designated. That will actually reduce the ability of those commercial operators like Highland Cuisine, which put in quite a detailed submission explaining how it processes wild venison for export. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EHighland Cuisines employs about 20 people directly and indirectly. It said in its submission: \u201CWe see the Game Animal Council with its potential costly bureaucracy as a direct threat and impact to our future business \u2026 The new Bill will be costly in real terms, and become a bureaucratic and environmental burden for hunters, business, and tax payer alike \u2026\u201D. That is because Highland Cuisine has noted that since the Game Animal Council Establishment Committee had been established, its suppliers, who are going out in those helicopters shooting animals, recovering the venison, processing it, and then exporting it to places like Germany, were seeing an increased intolerance of recreational hunters towards them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo if the Game Animal Council, given its substantial powers over these areas to be designated as herds of special interest, excludes those operators, that will restrict the areas where they can recover animals. And it will restrict what the National Government is on about a lot: added-value processing. These operators take something that is a problem, a pest, and turn it into an export that is of high value. That whole business community is being disadvantaged by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other major concern we have is just around the fact that the bill does not exclude herds of special interest from being established in our premier natural areas like our national parks. That is why there is Supplementary Order Paper 400 in my name to make sure that when the Minister decides whether or not to designate a herd of special interest, it cannot be in a national park. The select committee did make some useful changes to the criteria that the Minister would use when he was considering whether to designate a herd of special interest. Clause 16 tightened them quite considerably and added criteria like the status of the land where the animals were to be found and the statutory requirements around that land, but it does not include a specific exclusion on these areas being established in national parks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere have been problems with this in the past with the tahr plan. For a long time, the tahr hunters argued that there should be no culling of tahr in Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park. This is despite the fact that national park legislation provides that exotic animals should be eradicated wherever feasible. But we had this hunting interest wanting to hunt tahr in the national park strongly opposing tahr culling and tahr control. It was only over very strenuous efforts that it was finally recognised that the national park legislation should prevail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESimilarly, if you do not have an explicit protection of national parks in the bill so that herds of special interest cannot be established in them, we will see the Game Animal Council arguing against culling in national parks and potentially opposing 1080 drops. And certainly I agree with the concerns that Damien O\u2019Connor raised about the value of 1080 as a pest-control tool. Although Mr Dunne can give the reassurances of Mr Ottmann and others that they will not be opposing 1080, that has not been the history in the past. Because of the undesirable by-kill, deer hunters have opposed 1080. The Department of Conservation has done a lot of work on deer repellent. We will come back to some other points later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00224795e670e6324d5295b6aa9ca6ebf2e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224795e670e6324d5295b6aa9ca6ebf2e7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on Part 1 of the Game Animal Council Bill. Can I just express my frustration that the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, has not seen fit to take a call. I think it is a very poor reflection on his regard for the Local Government and Environment Committee, actually. This select committee, which was made up of National members, New Zealand First members, Green Party members, and Labour members, worked really hard on this bill to try to get agreement. There were some areas where it was a case of \u201CWe\u2019re clearly not going to go there\u2014we will not get agreement on that.\u201D, but there were a huge number of issues that were in that middle space where if we just put our heads together and worked hard and diligently, then we would be able to get agreement, and we did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe few fundamental outstanding issues are the areas that have caused us to decide to oppose this bill. But I think that the Minister of Foreign Affairs should be taking a call and answering some of the questions that have been raised, instead of sitting in his Minister\u2019s chair, smirking at the process and at members of Parliament. I do not think it is a very good attitude to have. It reflects an arrogance that I think is out of touch with the New Zealand community and the way that they want to see legislation progressed in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe member who promoted this bill and first introduced it as part of a confidence and supply agreement with the previous Labour-led Government, the Hon Peter Dunne, made more sense in his contribution of 5 minutes than the Minister of Conservation has through this entire debate. But I am still very puzzled by one point that he made, and it is pretty important in regard to Part 1 and Supplementary Order Paper 395 in the name of the Minister of Conservation, the Hon Nick Smith. I listened carefully to what Peter Dunne said. He said that after the select committee process he was lobbied by private landowners. He said that there were lots of them who felt that they had been excluded from the view, and then he mentioned tourism as an example of those lobbyists. He then said that that explains why clause 16 is being amended in the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab7402f879744522895d3381ac3ebc39\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Federated Farmers were there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f99ae74bc1284082a4abc11d13a9eeb9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Take another call\u2014I would like to hear the former Minister\u2019s explanation, because it in no way satisfied my concern that in Supplementary Order Paper 395, in the name of the Minister of Conservation, it is being proposed that clause 16(1)(a)(ii) be amended by replacing the current wording, which is: \u201Cmanaged for recreational hunting purposes\u201D\u2014that was the whole debate at the Local Government and Environment Committee; that we supported the recreational hunters\u2014with \u201Cmanaged for hunting purposes\u201D. That is not the debate that the select committee had. In fact, the select committee was at great pains to ensure that what it was supporting were people who had hunting as part of their lifestyle, not as their primary source of income. But this is not about slicing off a bit of public land for private profit. This is about supporting the genuine recreational activity that thousands of New Zealanders enjoy, and because of that enjoyment they have a great passion for the well-being of our public land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo it was the recreational hunters that this was designed to be supportive of. That was the debate through the entire select committee, and now we have ended up with a total rewrite of the purpose. For the Hon Peter Dunne to say: \u201CI was lobbied after the select committee and the power of their logic was overwhelming, so we ended up with Supplementary Order Paper 395, which fundamentally changed the purpose of the bill and the consideration of the select committee.\u201D, just does not wash, actually. It does not wash. It has got no credibility, and if it is not what the member said, then I challenge him to clarify his position by taking another call. In my view, he did not explain it, and it does not justify the significant change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI go back to the comment I made earlier in regard to the head of the Deerstalkers Association Inc., Tim McCarthy. He said: \u201CWhen it becomes an issue that affects the stakeholders of New Zealand\u2019s public land, and hunters are stakeholders in public land, then surely the tail shouldn\u2019t be wagging the dog as in this case.\u201D That was his concern about where this legislation has ended up. It was quite interesting as we went through the select committee process, because we heard from the people who had been on the advisory committee that was set up under the last Labour Government\u2014again, as part of the confidence and supply agreement with the Hon Peter Dunne, in the same way as it has been with the current Government. They came to the Local Government and Environment Committee and said: \u201CThis is not what we envisaged. This does not work for us. It does not achieve the purpose.\u201D Then we had the opponents of the Game Animal Council coming along and saying: \u201CThis does not work for us either.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIt seemed like nobody was gaining. It seemed like this legislation had been put together in an environment of such tension between policy perspectives, with no clear outcome. Nobody knew what the outcome of this was meant to be, and so everybody was just putting in their tuppence ha\u2019penny and we ended up with a mishmash of ideas and no clarity about the purpose of it. That was the result of that policy tension between the opponents and the proponents of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMembers of the Local Government and Environment Committee tried to get a clear outcome. We said we wanted to ensure that the partnerships that are there for the taking, and are, actually, obviously enabled by the current legislative regime, work well. We heard example after example from around the country of where those relationships\u2014between the Department of Conservation, recreational hunters, local iwi, and community organisations\u2014worked brilliantly. So, clearly, it is not prohibited by the current legislative regime, but what we wanted to do was ensure that that strong partnership was better supported through this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think that what we have seen with the Minister of Conservation\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper is a step in the opposite direction. I wish the Minister had listened more carefully or read the report from the Local Government and Environment Committee, because it was an example of where members from different parties, and with, perhaps, different perspectives, could listen to each other and gain some understanding. It was the first time that I had worked alongside Andrew Williams, actually, from New Zealand First, and I thought he made quite a significant contribution to the thinking on this legislation. We had different members on our team. Moana Mackey, Shane Jones, and I were often the three Labour people on it, and we do not always think the same. Heaven forbid that three human beings alongside each other should always have complete agreement. We talked about that at the committee, and I think that we learnt a lot from each other. I hope the rest of the select committee did as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo to have all that good work undermined by a Minister who has not even taken a call in the Committee stage of this debate is very frustrating and, I think, a slap in the face to the good work that the select committee members did. Supplementary Order Paper 395, which changes the term \u201Cmanaged for recreational hunting purposes\u201D to \u201Cmanaged for hunting purposes\u201D is a complete undermining of the work that was done. It sends quite a different message to recreational hunters in New Zealand about what their value is and how they are considered by the parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThere are some other Supplementary Order Papers that relate to Part 1. There are three in the name of Eugenie Sage. I think that they are going to provide a good opportunity for further debate. She has outlined some of them already. They are intended to ensure that the understanding, actually, that the select committee had about what the Game Animal Council would be able to do is in fact reflected in the legislation. So it is not a shift in policy through the Supplementary Order Papers that the member has on Part 1; it is actually a belts and braces approach, making sure that the legislation actually says what was reflected in the understanding of the select committee. So I commend consideration of those Supplementary Order Papers to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI want to end by saying that Part 1 has quite a lot of the nuts and bolts operation of the Game Animal Council. It does not have the substantive area of debate that we will be having later on. I do hope that the Hon Peter Dunne is able to take another call before we finish the debate on Part 1, and clarify why he would be proposing that Supplementary Order Paper 395 be supported and how it came to be introduced at such a late stage. We have had the select committee process and months and months of this bill sitting on the Order Paper, with no discussion with any other parties about a substantial change. Then, under urgency, and at the last minute we get thrown this Supplementary Order Paper, and the Minister in whose name it is does not even take a call on it. I think that is a very bad process. It does not represent the good work that the parties did across the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI know that Eugenie Sage has had her Supplementary Order Papers on the Table for a while. There is no point putting them on the Table when a bill is not before the House. But the Government members have known that this bill has been back on the Order Paper, from the select committee, for months and months, and then we get treated with this very poor behaviour\u2014a Supplementary Order Paper, a fundamental change, at the last minute, under urgency. It is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd8fcd81c3e247aeb884adc7db18ea69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd8fcd81c3e247aeb884adc7db18ea69\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Abraham Lincoln once said of a colleague that their competence was restricted to causing crises where previously none existed. Having heard the debate this morning on the Game Animal Council Bill, I think we are creating controversy where none actually exists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me just reiterate the points that I made in response to the Hon Ruth Dyson. When the bill was introduced, it related specifically to the conservation estate. During the debate at the Local Government and Environment Committee the funding mechanism that was proposed in the bill was a levy on trophies realised from all forms of hunting\u2014in other words, all geographies. Following the report back of the bill, a number of those groups that represent private landowners\u2014and I include Federated Farmers as one example\u2014came to the Government and said: \u201CBecause trophies taken on our land are going to be subject to the levy, we think we ought to be included under the Game Animal Council rubric.\u201D It is as simple as that. This is not about diminishing the role of recreational hunters\u2014far from it. In fact, it is including all hunting groups for the first time at the same table. If the members who are concerned look at the provisions relating to the membership of the council, they will see that they are broad and will enable all interests to be represented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI just make this point as I conclude. I have listened to this debate, and it has been a useful one, but one of the themes that has come through repeatedly has been the risk of the Game Animal Council being at odds with other groups in the sector. The very best way to ensure that that is the case would be to limit the scope of its application. Far from doing that, the amendments that are contained in the Minister of Conservation\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395 actually bring people together for the first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI cannot for the life of me see what the concern is about. I suspect it is an element of political point-scoring, which is fair enough in this place. But, frankly, when you have the chair of the establishment committee say that there is not a problem with it, and when you have the major groups that will be required to be part of the payment process saying they want to be included under the scope of the legislation\u2014it is the first time I can recall groups actually saying they want to be included in legislation; most times, groups want to be excluded and left to do their own thing\u2014you actually have the basis of a consensus moving forward. I think that the debate in Committee, frankly, diminishes the significance of that and puts at risk all of the good work\u2014and I freely acknowledge that members opposite were part of this in the select committee, in taking this concept and turning it into a proposition that is now workable and that is on the point of being established. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere is no hidden conspiracy here. There is no hidden plan. It is a simple fact of responding to needs that have been expressed and ensuring that we get the best possible outcome in the interests of all hunting groups across this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022 data-id=\u0022da5df58a355d41f4b08d66237a606b49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da5df58a355d41f4b08d66237a606b49\u0022\u003EBRENDAN HORAN (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a brief call, but in response to the Hon Peter Dunne, I would say that the only thing that diminishes when bills are slipped in under the cover of darkness is democracy. I cannot comment on Supplementary Order Paper 395 because I have not had the opportunity to read it, but I would concur with the Hon Ruth Dyson and members of the Local Government and Environment Committee. What I would like to do is take this brief call to explain the good points of these particular clauses and why I am supporting this bill. In doing so, I would like to acknowledge the contribution made by a number of passionate hunters, including Garry Ottmann and Roger Duxfield. I also acknowledge the work of Fish and Game\u2019s Chief Executive Officer, Bryce Johnson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EThe key point I want to make about clauses 3 to 26 is that the Game Animal Council Bill has the chance to reverse 30 years of friction and distrust between those who value game animal resource and those charged with conservation. Current legislation has fostered, as has been expressed before me, a win-lose environment, while the new bill will create a win-win one. There has been a massive cost to our nation in wasted resources and negative environmental outcomes. The Game Animal Council will have a partnership relationship with the Department of Conservation whilst still remaining accountable to the Minister of Conservation, and that is a good thing. Combining resources will greatly assist environmental outcomes. That is critical. Hunters have always been latent conservationists, and I must say that when there are hints of pollution out there or pests, I often get called by hunters, and they are a great source of information. I do not know a hunter who is not a conservationist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002243684a4d-fb40-469a-8e63-cdd1e354b387\u0022\u003EBut hunters have been forced previously into adversarial positions, largely because their voices have been ignored. The Game Animal Council membership will have to take responsibility for constituent body issues and will have the mandate and resources to resolve internal conflict. One only needs to think of the use of helicopters for hunting, industry standards, hunter behaviour, and so on and so forth. So having all game animal sectors around the table making consensus decisions is a huge achievement in itself. It indicates new maturity in sharing public and private resources. Having professional hunting and game estates included recognises the serious potential contribution commercial hunting can make to the economy and also conservation, and will safeguard New Zealand\u2019s international reputation in a sector that is very high up there in the tourist spend. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce1dcd0f0ee44d70989ff186095c497c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce1dcd0f0ee44d70989ff186095c497c\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wanted to rise to speak on Part 1 of the Game Animal Council Bill. I am very pleased that the Minister in the chair at the moment is the Hon Murray McCully. I presume that he elected to do his duty during the course of this bill because, of course, he will have some interest in, and knowledge about, elephants. I look forward to him taking a call. Unfortunately, elephants are not game animals, and they should not be, even though they are being slaughtered at a rate of about 100 a day in parts of Africa. However, perhaps with that wonderful gain of an elephant in exchange for not upsetting the President of Sri Lanka, the Minister might, in fact, get us a bear from Russia in exchange for the human rights of gay and lesbian athletes as they participate in the Winter Olympics in Russia. We look forward to another unhelpful contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI have been on the Local Government and Environment Committee for most of the last year. I have never been privy to this debate, because it all happened last year. So I have been listening very carefully. This bill has taken a long time to get to the House, and here we have it under urgency. It is another one of these measures that the Government uses to appease disgruntled coalition partners. Of course, we know that the Hon Peter Dunne has been disgruntled recently with the different treatment that he seems to have received compared with the Hon John Banks. That can be the only reason for this bill appearing under urgency, because the work on it started in 2008. There was a regulatory impact statement in 2011. I presume that the Local Government and Environment Committee debated it in 2012, and here we are, at the end of 2013, and suddenly it is urgent\u2014suddenly it is urgent. I am afraid that the arguments that the Hon Peter Dunne put up\u2014that certain things might expire before this date\u2014actually do not wash, because if you have the work starting in 2008 and coming to fruition only now, in 2013, what exactly were the expiry dates? What exactly was going to expire, and when, that caused this to be brought in under urgency? I would like to know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI have been listening very carefully to colleagues on both sides of the Committee who have been talking about the deliberations in the select committee. That select committee is chaired well by Nicky Wagner, and by all accounts there was a great deal of work and effort that went into finding a suitable solution, and a great deal of application by the members to the submitters and their submissions. But it seems to me that with Supplementary Order Paper 395 being introduced, which deletes the reference to recreational hunters and simply talks about hunters and hunting, rather than recreational hunters and hunting, something is happening here that goes across what was discussed in the course of the select committee\u2019s deliberation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EEarlier in this debate the Green Party member Eugenie Sage was saying that she thought that recreational hunters were now, with the introduction of this Supplementary Order Paper, being sold a pup in this bill, at which point the Hon Peter Dunne interjected and said \u201CLook at clause 8\u2014look at clause 8.\u201D Well, one can read clause 8, as I have, and see that none of Eugenie Sage\u2019s concerns is allayed by the content of clause 8. Clause 8 talks about the council membership. The Hon Peter Dunne, when he got up a moment ago, referred to that. Clause 8 says that the Minister has to appoint members to the council, and that they have got to be people whom the Minister considers to \u201Chave, collectively, knowledge of, and experience in relation to, matters relevant to the functions of the Council.\u201D Well, that is a no-brainer. Then it goes on to say: \u201CKnowledge and experience that are relevant include knowledge of, and experience relating to, (a) in the case of game animals,\u2014(i) recreational hunting: (ii) commercial hunting: (iii) deer farming: (iv) safari park operations:\u201D and so on. But it does not say anywhere that those interests must be represented. It says that the knowledge and experience relevant to these areas should be present on the council, but it does not say that recreational hunters should have a representative. I dare say that people who are commercial hunters may well have been recreational hunters at one stage in their lives, and so they can claim to have knowledge about recreational hunting, but there is no guarantee of representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf the Minister of Conservation, Nick Smith, is so confident that his Supplementary Order Paper, in deleting the word \u201Crecreational\u201D, actually does not do recreational hunters any harm, then why not at the same time put in an amendment to clause 8 that says that these interests should be represented, and not just have people who have knowledge of, and experience that is relevant to, those sectors? Why not have something that represents the concerns that were described so fully by Ruth Dyson as part of the fabric of the select committee\u2019s discussion? It seems to me that the recreational hunters are not being provided for at all adequately. Firstly, they are having several specific references to recreational hunters and hunting deleted from the bill, and they are not having that compensated for by ensuring that representatives of recreational hunters are included amongst the membership of the Game Animal Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, I still want to reiterate that this was not the only legislative solution available to the Government. Instead of escalating this into a monster that has its own statute, why not simply amend existing legislation like the Wild Animal Control Act and ensure that there would be an advisory committee, which would not have the costs and would not have the tensions that will now be entrenched because of this bill but would have ways of ensuring that the voices of hunters could be heard through the Wild Animal Control Act and the protections available there? This expensive option was not the only one available to the Government, and it should have looked at others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement says that the non-regulatory options for achieving the objectives had not been explored or analysed further because the decision had been taken to proceed with the establishment of the Game Animal Council. The Department of Conservation says in the regulatory impact analysis of 2011\u2014that is how urgent this bill is\u2014that the Game Animal Council could be established either under section 5 of the Wild Animal Control Act or through an amendment to the Wild Animal Control Act. So why take the kind of nuclear option in making this a bill of its own? The Minister has not addressed that issue, and I invite him to do so. I do not understand why the most difficult and the most expensive option has been chosen by the Government. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00229597ea750449406d9976db0ad61d77df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229597ea750449406d9976db0ad61d77df\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I see Minister McCully, the Minister in the chair, about to leap to his feet, so I apologise for taking his call. My intention is actually to be of some assistance to the Committee in working its way through the issues there are with the Game Animal Council Bill. I think that most members of the Committee will know that I am actually a hunter. There have been some issues made out of two points, which I want to address first. The first one is why we are doing this in urgency. The Hon Peter Dunne made the point that there are provisions that will expire. There are provisions that need to be put in place before next year\u2019s commercial activity by safari parks and hunters so that issues that are actually anathema to the recreational hunter are dealt with. So there is no mischief, there is nothing untoward about the reason why this bill is being deal with now. By February there need to be codes of practice in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ELet me deal with another issue that is perplexing the Committee. Why are we taking \u201Crecreational\u201D out of the bill? In the last 12 months I have been a hunter, and I can name five different hats that I have had. I have been a recreational hunter, harvesting some eco-protein for the pot or the deep freeze or whatever else. I have been a trophy hunter\u2014an unsuccessful but attempted trophy hunter. I have been a commercial hunter\u2014I have sold product that I have harvested. I have been a pest hunter\u2014I have dealt to wild pigs that were savaging young fawns on my deer farm, and we wiped out an intrusion that happened there. And I have been a guide\u2014people have paid money. I do that for charities. That is five different things. If you go to clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd8f184427464c4dbe15f7baa439ecb4\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: And you\u2019re an MP as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b40ce44d8fe64fd18fc64815454cb968\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, that may amaze the member, but, you know, I can multi-task. But if members go to clause 4, the interpretation clause, there is no definition of \u201Crecreational hunter\u201D, and there is ambiguity about that. Everybody knows what a hunter is, but not everybody knows what a recreational hunter is, and at some point there could be some litigation about exactly what that means. So this is actually inclusive, rather than selective. I want the Committee to just understand that\u2014that there is no mischief. This brings a level of inclusion to hunting and making sure that there are all of those representations, because people often wear different hats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ECan I then make some comment about clause 22, which is about the way in which fees may be extracted to pay for the Game Animal Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e20e8ac08b4219ac900eaa14f72c55\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ab1c274b5944405a233e93f34e74380\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 22, I think. The mechanism is there. I have also had some experience in being on hunts in other countries, but I have been too Presbyterian to pay. Can I just illustrate that it is, in fact, the habit of pretty much every country in the world to charge foreign nationals a different fee from locals. My experience particularly is in Wyoming. If you are a resident Wyoming citizen, a tag for an elk is $150. If you are a non-resident but US State citizen, it is $250 on top of the $150. If you are a foreign national outside the US, it is $700 on top of the $150. That is one of the lower rates where it does occur. So we are not creating anything that is outside the realm of what is normal practice internationally, where there is some kind of expectation that fees are paid by people who are not resident and those fees go towards the management of the environment and the various hunting species that are there. So that is an explanation of how that might work to actually fund the Game Animal Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ECan I then address the Supplementary Order Paper 395 on new clause 26A, which talks about a code of practice for herding and hazing. This is one of those issues that needs to be dealt with post haste because there are a number of hunting guides that are ready to set in place contracts for next year. That is why there is some urgency about actually doing it. How did this actually happen? That is the question. Members need to understand that there is WARO\u2014wild animal recovery operations\u2014where significant numbers of animals are in the wrong place. The Minister of Conservation said in his second reading speech that when there are too many animals in the wrong place, they need to be harvested, and a wild animal recovery operation is a very effective way of controlling that. My interest is principally around Fiordland, and every year 6,000 deer are taken out by wild animal recovery operations in Fiordland. That is the number to keep the number to a sustainable level in Fiordland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESome of the more enterprising guides said: \u201CHang on, there is a commercial application for hunting out of helicopters.\u201D So they tweaked\u2014I think that could be a word we could use\u2014the wild animal recovery operation provisions to allow them to charge for the hunting of trophies, the herding and hazing, or the extension of how that actually happened. In many ways this is anathema to the recreational hunter and that needs to be dealt with, and in most countries in the world there are some very strict rules about that. We in New Zealand have this very delicate relationship where we need to allow wild animal recovery operations to continue to harvest animals that are in excessive numbers in some places and yet not allow that provision for our people to conduct hunting experiences that are outside what is acceptable, certainly internationally. If you go to a place like Canada, you are not even allowed to hunt\u2014not you, Mr Chairman. A member is not allowed to hunt on the day that he flies in, in case he sees a trophy animal on the way in or he does some detour routes on the way in looking for one. So the rules are quite specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670fc8a020364b68bfb9f646f1e20231\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Why isn\u2019t Lindsay allowed to hunt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c8a3d7bd61c4047a2eac3eba9cb9ff9\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, has the member got a question? I am happy to answer questions. This is about putting provisions in place\u2014and the member has read it very carefully\u2014and I think that that Supplementary Order Paper around the codes is quite elegant. It gives an opportunity for the Game Animal Council to create a code that will set the rules around this and still allow for the sensible use of wild animal recovery operations. That is principally what that is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo, all in all, I think that the Supplementary Order Papers add to the bill. I just run through the key points again. It is necessary to get this bill under way and passed through the third stage so that the time limits and the things that need to be put in place are put in place before the next commercial guiding activity starts. The removal of the word \u201Crecreational\u201D takes the ambiguity away and the Supplementary Order Paper on clause 26 allows us to have best practice, which will be accepted internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceacdf1086284da3a2d42659dbca318a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceacdf1086284da3a2d42659dbca318a\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very interesting explanation by Mr Roy, but I am still puzzled. We can understand the code of practice around hazing but there is this fundamental change that herds of special interest are now no longer going to be established so that they are managed for recreational hunting purposes. This means that they can be managed, then, for trophy hunting purposes, completely undercutting the previous thrust of the Game Animal Council Bill, which was about promoting recreational hunting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI would just like to talk about clause 16 and the whole process of designation of herds of special interest, because the Local Government and Environment Committee included some more specific criteria in there to ensure that the Minister did take a number of matters into account that were not in the original bill, including the purposes of the Wild Animal Control Act. There were a number of submissions on the bill from regional councils, like the Auckland Council, for example. That is where, again, Supplementary Order Paper 395 is also of concern with the other change that it makes. The Supplementary Order Paper amends the definition of \u201Cgame animal\u201D to include chamois, deer, tahr, and wild pigs that are kept in captivity. \u201CKept in captivity\u201D is quite a loose term when you are talking about safari parks. In extensive areas in North Canterbury and Marlborough, where animal numbers are allowed to increase quite significantly, they are run and hunters who are paying for the privilege get a very easy opportunity to shoot an animal. So I would ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Sport and Recreation, who has not said anything during this debate, whether he could explain why the definition of \u201Cgame animals\u201D has been expanded to include these animals that are run in safari parks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EPotentially, as I read the bill, that means that herds of special interest could be established in those safari parks on private land, and the problem with that is the potential implications it has for pest management. The Auckland Council was quite adamant in its submission that the bill should make it clear that the herds of special interest should be able to be established only on conservation lands, and once an animal was no longer in its designated area, it could be managed in accordance with other legislation, i.e., the Biosecurity Act. We do not have deer everywhere in New Zealand. In Northland, for example, there has been a major effort by the regional council there to control deer numbers and prevent the establishment of feral deer populations. So if the bill with this Supplementary Order Paper is loosening the provisions around safari parks, it means that regional councils, the Animal Health Board, and the TBfree New Zealand programme will have a reduced ability to control animals like feral pigs in order to prevent the spread of bovine TB, and to make sure that landowners in those areas actually have proper fencing in place so that the animals do not escape. Could the Minister please explain what this whole expansion of the definition of \u201Cgame animals\u201D to include animals in captivity is all about? Why is that required when the bill has been promoted as being about improving recreational hunting in the first instance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI have put in three Supplementary Order Papers in my name that relate to clause 16. The number of matters that the Minister must have regard to has been expanded to include things like taking advice from the Ministry of Primary Industries, primarily around biosecurity issues, from any relevant regional council, from the Conservation Authority, and from any relevant conservation board, and also having to look at the actual status of the conservation land. That was another important change that the select committee made to the bill\u2014that you do not have just herds of specified interest being established but you actually have to designate the land area that they relate to. The Supplementary Order Paper seeks to address the concern that at the moment, some of these introduced species are located in specific areas, like the white-tailed deer population, which is found only on Rakiura / Stewart Island. The Himalayan tahr population is found in the central Southern Alps between about the Rangitata River and the Landsborough River. Keeping those animals [Bell rung] confined to a particular range is really\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7586a6555640b8a3e8354a6dbfae81\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want to call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275107c0db40243a9bd854ada77d71973\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Chair. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222817b92f1e4343c08b9dea9ee94b971d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: You must ask for the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d52762b03894e63b69962ca1b2e932f\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Chair. May I have a call, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703e811ba38844959ce8c184e57e54d8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Eugenie Sage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eefc5a60f444a78ac50b5a47a33d162\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Preventing the expansion in the feral range of these introduced animals is critical in managing their impacts on introduced biodiversity. My Supplementary Order Paper 399 seeks to ensure that the Minister has another matter to consider, and that is that the designation as a herd of special interest will not lead to an expansion in the feral range and will not prevent its range being contracted as animal numbers are controlled. We all know that some hunters like to take animals and plant them in other areas to expand their hunting opportunities. That is highly irresponsible\u2014particularly in relation to feral pigs because it spreads bovine tuberculosis\u2014because it spreads the pests\u2019 impacts by expanding their range. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 400, which I have talked about previously, is to prevent herds of special interests being established in national parks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe third Supplementary Order Paper in relation to Part 1 is Supplementary Order Paper 401, and I would encourage National members to consider this one seriously too. It makes very clear by adding an additional clause, clause 16B, that the Minister could withdraw the designation of a herd of special interest at any time and restrict the location and area of conservation land where that herd of special interest was managed. It also makes clear that he would consult the organisations that are already listed in the clause, such as the Minister for Primary Industries, the Department of Conservation, regional councils, the Conservation Authority, and conservation boards. The reason for doing that is that it may become quite obvious that the Game Animal Council is not adequately managing the biodiversity impacts of herds of special interest, that it has allowed the populations to expand to make it easier to go hunting, and that that, through the browsing impacts, is affecting a lot of our threatened plant species and damaging habitat. The Minister has to have the power to actually be able to uplift that designation or to reduce the area that it applies to. It is a belt and braces approach, as Ruth Dyson has noted, but it is a sensible one to make clear that the Minister has those powers. I would encourage the Government members to consider it seriously. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022932f24aa43634686b3525ec2947bb614\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairman, please may I have a call, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00222efccb8abd17434aa1e8897b9ddd7f99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222efccb8abd17434aa1e8897b9ddd7f99\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just explain why I mentioned that to the previous member\u2014just continuing to stand after your 5 minutes is up does not mean that you will get the next call. You must call out \u201CMr Chairman\u201D. That is the second time you did it. I did not pull you up the first time, but just for reference in the future, just ask for the call again by saying \u201CMr Chairman\u201D. Phil Twyford has asked for the call and I am going to give it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022225a4f7b60c944bb9f6cfe746882c78a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022225a4f7b60c944bb9f6cfe746882c78a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Please, Mr Chairman, may I have a call? Thank you\u2014thank you, Mr Chairman. It is good that we are rewriting the Standing Orders on the hoof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251465037c63e448a83b1870818776131\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, we are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d75484544764ff2b556b3114df8b3cc\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It is good to follow yet another excellent contribution by the member Eugenie Sage and, actually, I wanted to say also that the member for Southland, Eric Roy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c9db8c98c3e424f9dba4f19a9b78bf0\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Invercargill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf98ffb6004442398111960e4280ca91\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Invercargill, I beg your pardon. He made a great contribution, and it was good to have someone of his firsthand knowledge of hunting and have some real detail to put on the bone. I want to register the ongoing frustration on this side of the Chamber with the lack of any contribution from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Murray McCully. I do not know how much hunting is done in East Coast Bays these days, but probably more\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2b81f00cd542d4ab295939d8ee7622\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Probably quite a few Tory members looking for the seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704875937b41449c92db5f7e2ba8a097\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want to come to that, but I suspect more hunting is done from the comfort of big-game lodges that has been tacked on to various foreign affairs excursions and international conferences. We live in hope that Mr McCully will make a contribution and answer the many questions that have been posed in the course of this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt seems to me, looking at the background to this Game Council Bill coming to the Committee stage, that it is something of a textbook study on how not to make legislation. It is a pretty unsatisfactory process. If we put aside just for a minute the details of what the bill seeks to do, it is an unsatisfactory process and I want to provide some background to why Labour is not supporting the bill at this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhen the bill was first tabled in the House and had its first reading, I have to say that there were mixed views within the Labour caucus but considerable sympathy for some of the intent of this bill to provide a place for hunters to stand within the governance of our natural environment and recreational system in New Zealand, and a considerable sympathy with their desire to have more of a say, to be part of decision making, and to protect their access to hunting places around this country. As with all these sorts of things, there are always complex trade-offs to be made, and I think we have reached a point where, we believe, this bill actually hinders rather than helps the building of constructive relationships between the hunting community and the conservation estate, and that, actually, the risk now is that this bill will do more harm than good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to just touch on some of the arguments why we believe that that is the case. The first is that the council, as it is set up in Part 1 of the bill, is being set up as a stand-alone separate entity. There was a lot of debate, I understand, at the Local Government and Environment Committee that, in fact, it could have been set up as an advisory body. What the bill does is the opposite of creating clean lines of accountability and authority. It basically muddies, cuts across, and sets up competing interests in the management of the conservation estate, and I think that is unfortunate. I would suggest that in time that will make it unsustainable. It sets up direct and competing interests in the management of wild animals. So that is the first thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe second thing\u2014just as worrying, I think\u2014is that in regard to the final determination on a proposal for conservation purposes, for example, the dropping of 1080 for pest eradication purposes, it gives the Game Animal Council that determinative role. That is a serious issue. That is going to create strife. It will build into the system a real tension around what is already a fraught issue in terms of decision making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe third issue is about funding of the council and that is one that the select committee worked really hard on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4d07b70591b4f7a8e8ebab39cd62ed0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4d07b70591b4f7a8e8ebab39cd62ed0\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e398a4443f4c46a088c88b9bf88298ee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000266\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 395 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c2432f4cbd74ad09084d01df729c7d4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000267\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 399 in the name of Eugenie Sage to clause 16 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002224133ff7ac554b579ecb187854465fff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000268\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 400 in the name of Eugenie Sage to insert new clause 16A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fe13887ab2fb4e18afef31664da09718\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000269\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 401 in the name of Eugenie Sage to insert new clause 16B be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220cf72184eb394b71937db778e1be7b99\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225fd157e9f7d546c7b0932c092a90088b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb09d830719e4a59b54a9199bf0fb3c4\u0022\u003EPart 2  Miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002289f82260f9494b81a73f8c9f59e8aadf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289f82260f9494b81a73f8c9f59e8aadf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We now move to debate on Part 2. This is clauses 27 to 36 and schedules 1 to 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d694fe6ff0f548c3afd8f1beaf4810e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d694fe6ff0f548c3afd8f1beaf4810e6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to speak on Part 2 of the Game Animal Council Bill, which deals with some of the issues that, even though not as substantive as the ones we have already been debating, caused the most discussion in the Local Government and Environment Committee. One issue in particular that we discussed was that of offences and penalties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe also spent a huge amount of time in the select committee talking about how the Game Animal Council would be funded. I was really fascinated by how many proposals we had about the different methods of funding. There was always some group within the hunting fraternity that said: \u201CThat is an excellent idea\u2014but we should be excluded.\u201D It did not matter what model we considered, or what model we thought would be an appropriate and fair way of funding the Game Animal Council through some sort of levy, there was always a group that explained to us\u2014and I think that they were being perfectly honest, actually\u2014how that would impact unfairly on them. So this part has a bit about that, a bit about the offences provisions, and a bit about the further definition of the \u201Cherds of special interest\u201D and what animals may be hunted within those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI was very interested to hear an earlier contribution about how much money was going to be spent on operating the Game Animal Council. The estimates that the Local Government and Environment Committee got were $100,000 for the first year of set-up, and from then on, after the first 12 months, it would be $50,000 per annum. At the same time we have had the chief executive of the Department of Conservation on the radio this morning, on Rural News, saying that his department was not going anywhere near the advocacy required for the Ruataniwha dam proposal, which opponents say will turn the Tukituki River toxic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022481cbda5cc394338a1839aaa0cec3342\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd79f8d6f5fc4be1bfba79ab11dc50e7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Department of Conservation said it would cost it $250,000 to prepare and defend a robust case about the nitrate management on the Tukituki River. That is just 3 years of the funding required, as outlined in Part 2 of this bill, for the Game Animal Council, because if it is $100,000 for the first year and $50,000 after it, then in 3 years you have pretty well chewed through the same amount of money that the department was not prepared to use to defend\u2014and perhaps even, at some future date, enhance\u2014the quality of a river, and a river that actually has significant conservation values\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b55eb1ecdb24d3893ba8a26d38677c5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This is outside the scope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158be9bf6f8c437285fa2196cc441466\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Just going back to the more specific areas in this part, Eric Roy in his contribution talked about the regimes that are in place in other countries. I will be interested in his contribution on this, because he is right in saying that other countries have a much stricter regime around what can be hunted, what can be taken from the country, and what can be used for what purpose within the country. They usually have a regime where people from overseas are charged a much higher rate to hunt on public land than they would be if they were a resident of that country. Mr Roy used the examples of Canada and a state in America to emphasise his points. We do not go into that level of detail in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe select committee did not talk a lot about whether we should have a different regime for overseas nationals. I have not checked the Table recently, but there may well be a Supplementary Order Paper proposing that sort of regime. It is a little more detail than the committee was able to get agreement on, though. In clause 28 we talk about a person \u201Cwho hunts or kills any game animal that is part of a herd of special interest\u201D. That is a herd that has been designated as a herd of special interest. If they hunt or kill an animal without an authorisation, without a licence or a permit, and without complying with the terms of that authorisation, however it is given, whether through a licence or a permit, they then are liable to be convicted of an offence that is then liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $2,500. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI would be very interested to hear from some of the hunters in our Parliament as to whether they consider that to be a high enough penalty to deter people from committing such an offence, because that is another area that the committee felt quite weak on, in terms of knowing exactly what level of fine you would need to impose to deter anyone from committing that act. A person might say: \u201CWell, I\u2019m interested in hunting. I can\u2019t be bothered getting a licence or a permit, or if I applied for one, I might not qualify. There would be reasons that I would be excluded from being granted a licence or a permit to hunt.\u201D So what would be the level of fee that would make them say: \u201COh, if I got caught I\u2019d be fined that amount of money.\u201D? That is exactly what clause 28 in Part 2 is aiming to do. It is aiming to set a fine at a level that would stop people from hunting or killing animals within a herd of special interest without a licence or a permit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe next couple of clauses in Part 2 sort of flow on from that. We have got clause 29, \u201CCapturing, conveying, or possessing game animal that that is part of a herd of special interest\u201D. There are obviously a limited number of ways that people could be doing that, but this is different from hunting or killing. Again, we set the fee at what we considered an appropriate level\u2014$5,000. So if a person captures, conveys, or possesses a game animal that is part of a herd of special interest without a permit or a licence, they get a fine of $5,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ENext in that series of fines relating to animals that are part of a herd of special interest is the provision in clause 30, \u201CRestrictions on liberation of game animal that is part of herd of special interest\u201D. This attracts the biggest fine in Part 2, and that is a fine of $50,000. So Parliament is saying that that offence\u2014the offence of liberating a game animal that is part of a herd of special interest, or allowing any game animal that belongs to a herd of special interest to escape\u2014is considered to be the most offensive of the three offences, much more so than capturing, conveying, or possessing a game animal, and even more so than hunting or killing an animal in a herd of special interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think that sometimes we go over these fines and penalties provisions quite lightly. But if you take a step back and consider why we have them, the whole point is to create an environment where the weight of the penalty is such that it would stop somebody from moving to commit the offence. It is not just an after-the-event consideration\u2014that we should punish somebody because they have committed an offence. There is also the deterrent factor in the penalty regime, and we certainly hope we have got it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThere are a few other provisions in Part 2, but those are the four main ones that I wanted to concentrate on. I do think it is an important regime for us to debate, and I hope that it carries on for another little while.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00224ac22c03b4d0484dbf27b267c2b4bbe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ac22c03b4d0484dbf27b267c2b4bbe0\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The concerns we have over Part 2 of the Game Animal Council Bill are around this whole notion of offences. I guess it reflects the whole thrust of the bill, which is turning a problem animal into a valued resource, and, therefore, undermining the control that is needed of these animals. So making it an offence to hunt or kill an animal in a herd of special interest, as clause 28 does, potentially means that if you have a Kiwi hunter who strays into an area that has been designated for a herd of special interest, and he or she has not complied with all the provisions and has not got the necessary authorisations that the earlier part of the bill sets up, he or she could be charged with an offence. It also means that the Department of Conservation, the staff of which are already pressed in terms of managing the one-third of the land area of New Zealand with a budget equivalent to that of Hamilton City Council\u2019s, is going to be responsible for some of the enforcement of these provisions. So that is taking those staff away from the much more important duties of managing biodiversity values, and potentially having to be responsible for enforcing these penalty provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe have seen a similar conflict arise with the Wild Animal Control Act. The best deer, the best chamois, and the best tahr are dead ones. So anybody who goes out hunting these animals and killing them is doing good for our indigenous species, which are found only here in New Zealand. But by this bill making it an offence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223013575347e42ae8fcba1d46793f87b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: The best one\u2019s in the hangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f3ba74cec84488ab489a1b2e361b3d4\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014means that\u2014well, maybe the best one is in a hangi, too. It is also dead if it is in a hangi. But making it an offence to kill them is potentially undermining the need to go out and kill them, and it is going to set up the tension that several speakers from the Opposition have talked about earlier, between the Game Animal Council wanting to protect these herds of special interest as a resource for them to enjoy and exploit, and actually needing to reduce their numbers to protect biodiversity. That tension is really apparent in clause 28, where it is an offence to kill any animal in such a herd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Chair\u2014I was just surprised to see a member of the Opposition in the Chair. That was a refreshing change. This, again, is an example of how the bill is not needed, how it will set up internal conflicts in the management of conservation land, and how it twists the Department of Conservation\u2019s primary purpose of managing conservation land to preserve and protect our natural resources and our indigenous species. Now it will be charged instead with potentially protecting those exotic animals, those browsers, which have a heavy impact on a lot of our threatened plant species, and with making it an offence if anyone kills them. So that, again, is our concern about the bill. It is setting up a very bureaucratic regime because of the need to get a permit issued by the Game Animal Council, and the need to pay the fees to kill these species, which people can now go out and freely hunt in return for an easy-to-get permit from the Department of Conservation. If you are going to capture, convey, or possess a game animal that is part of a herd of special interest without having the Minister of Conservation\u2019s permission, you are also committing an offence under clause 29. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe have already seen some of the parties that were promoting the establishment of the Game Animal Council, such as the Game and Forest Foundation. It was issuing press statements in 2010 that were criticising Silver Fern Farms in Hokitika on the West Coast for killing chamois, recovering those carcasses, processing them, and then exporting them. So, again, these offence provisions will set up a real tension potentially between the wild animal recovery operators and those whom the Game Animal Council protects and whose interests the council is being established to promote. So these offence provisions cut right across the need to reduce these exotic animals to low numbers in order to protect indigenous biodiversity. As Ruth Dyson commented, the Local Government and Environment Committee spent a lot of time dealing with how the Game Animal Council would be funded. This part of the bill also deals with the export of game trophies, which is intended to be one of the funding mechanisms and sets up offences there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002233c90764b3e74dd0aa9f9717155b5ff2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233c90764b3e74dd0aa9f9717155b5ff2\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can I just clarify something for a moment? Are we dealing with Part 2 and schedules 1 and 2, or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ee75ae0434b49c881892c4d8d3e8d19\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and 3\u2014schedules 1 to 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e917d8dade2547f98d4263c4c16c7b66\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Schedules 1, 2, and 3\u2014thank you very much, indeed. That may make a difference to what I say. In Part 2 of this bill, the Game Animal Council Bill, subpart 1 deals with offences and penalties and subpart 2 deals with other matters. Before I begin on this, let me say that, in due course, I also want to refer to the Minister of Conservation\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, Supplementary Order Paper 395, which amends clause 33. However, I just want to recognise the contribution from Eric Roy earlier, which I found very helpful, particularly with some of those clauses in Part 1 that had raised questions. So I thank the member for that, but it did leave me with some more questions, which are now exacerbated by Part 2, because this is the bit that deals with, in the first instance, offences and penalties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that if some of the difficulties between hunting organisations and the Department of Conservation and so on had been resolved through a different measure\u2014that is, not by a statute setting up a Game Animal Council on its own\u2014then some of the provisions in Part 2 would not be necessary either. Certainly, offences need to be established, and that could easily have been done, I think, under the Wild Animal Control Act, to which I have referred previously, and it could have been done in a way that was cooperative and came out of an advisory committee established under that legislation, rather than under this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESo although I recognise that offences and penalties are necessary, the thing I am questioning in this part is that this entire process, and this special bureaucracy that is being established to implement it, would not have been necessary in this form if the Minister of Conservation had chosen to take more notice of the submissions that were put in by submitters to the Local Government and Environment Committee or had chosen to take more notice of the regulatory impact statement written by the Department of Conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis really goes back to stage 1 for me, because if these penalties and provisions here and the definitions of a \u201Cherd of special interest\u201D, and so on, are all essential, then it might have been better to have it come as recommendations from an advisory council that the Minister could not disestablish under the Wild Animal Control Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to go to another matter, and it is in schedule 1, which talks about enforcement officers and honorary enforcement officers. We see in clause 1 that enforcement officers are clearly appointed \u201Cwithin the meaning of section 2(1) of the Conservation Act 1987, as an enforcement officer for the purposes of this Act.\u201D So there will be warranted officers appointed under the Conservation Act to carry out the enforcement functions required under this piece of legislation. Schedule 1 then talks about the appointment and removal of honorary enforcement officers. An honorary enforcement officer here, in schedule 1(2), is somebody \u201Cwho may be appointed for a term not exceeding 3 years, but may be reappointed: (b) may be removed from office by the Director-General, by written notice, if the Director-General considers for any reason that the person is no longer a fit and proper person\u201D\u2014[Bell rung] I just wish to conclude this point fairly quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESchedule 1(3) states: \u201CThe Minister may reimburse an honorary enforcement officer for reasonable expenses\u201D. This goes back to a theme that is being pursued by this Government when it comes to the care and protection of our environment. The Minister of Conservation has stripped back the Department of Conservation to such an extent that now it cannot even carry out its legal functions. So it cannot preserve, protect, and advocate for the environment, given the stripping-back of the staff of the Department of Conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s answer to that has been partnership. It has been words around partnering with volunteers and charitable organisations in order to ensure that our environment can be adequately protected. This is the same Minister who wants to get housing on the cheap through giving minuscule amounts of money to third-sector organisations in housing provision. He wants to contract out parts of the functions of the Department of Conservation because it can no longer fulfil those functions because of retrenchments and staffing. He wants to contract out those functions to volunteers and voluntary and charitable organisations, and so get environmental protection on the cheap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is now environmental\u2014or game animal\u2014enforcement on the cheap, with enforcement officers. So I presume that the Minister has in mind that he will give a cap to the people who volunteer to take up this position. They can then, with their own resources, with this hat on that says \u201Chonorary enforcement officer\u201D, stroll around our environment ensuring that the provisions of this bill, and particularly the requirements of Part 2, are being honoured and are being implemented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI worry that this is the same model that is being used in other areas where the Government wants to withdraw money that it provides for legitimate and legislated functions, and pass that over to charitable organisations, individuals, and the private sector, in some cases, in order to carry out what should be Government functions. The Minister should resource this properly if he wants the functions to be carried out adequately. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022726c88b3cc3b49ee9f63808c8a6a0be5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022726c88b3cc3b49ee9f63808c8a6a0be5\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to begin by focusing on schedule 1, which is around the role of enforcement officers and honorary enforcement officers under this new Game Animal Council Bill. Any piece of legislation is only as good as the provisions under which it can be enforced. So the enforcement and penalty provisions that are found in Part 2 of this bill will have meaning or effect only if those people who seek to break the law feel that there is an adequate chance that they will be caught, in breaching the provisions of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns that we had at the Local Government and Environment Committee was the lack of detail around how many of these enforcement officers we would have. We know that every constable in the New Zealand Police will be considered an enforcement officer, but we also know that police have a very large job to do outside of the Game Animal Council Bill. The reality is that I do not believe that our police force is going to be patrolling Department of Conservation land as a priority, to catch people carrying out illegal hunting or illegal hunting of herds of national significance, unless they have been tipped off that there is something very bad going on. Then the question comes down to who is going to do that day-to-day monitoring, which, realistically, is not going to be carried out by the New Zealand Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo we have a role in schedule 1 called \u201Cenforcement officers\u201D, and then we have what are called \u201Chonorary enforcement officers\u201D. At the select committee our concern was very much that this not become the \u201CDad\u2019s army\u201D of the conservation estate, and that these be very real positions, which bring in people who have the right qualifications, experience, and knowledge, particularly in the areas of health and safety. Hunting is obviously a very dangerous activity and the last thing we would want to do is put people who are inadequately trained in harm\u2019s way by sending them out into a part of the conservation estate where hunting is being carried out. It comes down, really, to schedule 1, clause 2(1), which says: \u201CThe Director-General may appoint any fit and proper person who is suitably qualified and trained \u2026\u201D, but nowhere in the legislation do we find out what \u201Csuitably qualified and trained\u201D is deemed to be. There are no thresholds set. There are no basic competencies put in place. So I would like to think that the director-general is going to do the right thing, but, as we can see, public servants can be made to do things that they do not particularly want to do and that are against the interests of the Department of Conservation and what we would normally expect from the Department of Conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b08ad9b9e124c878b87a707a0781693\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been going on for 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc59cd3e04734d00b1598d0120800014\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014it has been going on for 5 years. If we were then to find out that the Government was under some pressure because, in fact\u2014I mean, these are honorary positions. The Minister has the ability to reimburse for realistic costs, but these people are not getting paid, so I question, really, how realistic it is to think that we are going to get a big enough force of these people to be able to monitor these activities, given that the people who are paid to do it\u2014the paid enforcement officers\u2014are the police force, and this is not going to be a priority for them. There is a risk that that definition of \u201Csuitably qualified and trained\u201D might be too watered down and be without adequate belt and braces in the schedule and in this part of the bill to say what the core competencies are. If the Government feels under pressure that it does not have enough people out there, it might start to actually water down that definition of \u201Csuitably qualified and trained\u201D. Then we may end up with people who are lesser qualified and trained carrying out this very important role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to just briefly go through some of the powers that these honorary enforcement officers will have. They, basically, will have all the powers that a police officer would have in the Department of Conservation: the power to intervene, the power to prevent or stop offending, the power to require personal details or the production of lawful authority, and the power to search. The honorary enforcement officers \u201Cmay, without a warrant, search any building, vehicle, vessel, aircraft, animal, or other thing on public conservation land if\u2014[they believe it] is in the possession or under the control of \u2026\u201D someone who they think is committing an offence under this legislation. That is the power to stop and the powers of seizure. Those are quite significant powers to be handing over to non-professional people, and all we were asking, really, was that we have a little bit more detail in this part of the bill about the basic core competencies and requirements of an honorary enforcement officer, given that they are basically going to have nearly all the powers of a police officer when they are acting on Department of Conservation land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022336f7f4491344149bf449fd5630c76b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022336f7f4491344149bf449fd5630c76b0\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022397b11e9d27949009fe595b2f3366e9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022397b11e9d27949009fe595b2f3366e9f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E So, coming back to my point after that brief and very good speech from Mr Goldsmith\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b7c75b6ba34dbabf382566c127fe48\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What a contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae4a547befc4b2bbb77daba684e2a6b\u0022\u003EPaul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Better than yours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0e05b6aca34887b06e78fc1ea497d5\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, OK. It is about this definition of \u201Csuitably qualified and trained\u201D, and it is the Director-General of Conservation who will be appointing these people and making these judgments, but as we know, directors-general in the Department of Conservation can be leaned on to do things that they are not particularly comfortable with. We know that that is the case, particularly in terms of the Ruataniwha Dam scheme, which is currently before a board of inquiry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bdb63d3de034f9a8e484b9814e964ec\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t know that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecccf95a47c043fd8a7b33733c1cd679\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mrs Collins, but where there is smoke, there is fire. I do not think there is anyone who is under any illusion that the Department of Conservation was not weighed on very heavily\u2014weighed on very, very heavily\u2014to pull its submission on the Ruataniwha Dam scheme. That is quite clear. The Minister leaned on the Department of Conservation, and this happens from time to time. So that is why we are asking in this piece of legislation that, where we have Ministers in the National Government who are prepared to lean on their directors-general and their public servants to get them to do things that they do not want to do, it is important in legislation like this that when we are giving people the power of a police officer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585161b2422743deb69afa71e56edfb1\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: The staff member resigned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af0be17d636448aac25122072d88630\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. A staff member actually did resign over what happened in the Department of Conservation with Ruataniwha, so it does happen. It has happened; it is happening. That is why when we are giving these honorary enforcement officers basically the role of a police officer in the conservation estate and it is the director-general who is determining who is \u201Csuitably qualified and trained\u201D, we should have a little bit more in the legislation to make it clear. And when we cannot find enough of these people\u2014because they are not paid positions; they are voluntary positions\u2014and when suddenly there are not the numbers that were promised in the conservation estate, it is important that the Minister does not then lean on the director-general to say: \u201CWell, we just need to water down those kinds of standards you\u2019ve put in place for what these people\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c29e3243bc404db497730bb48ab100\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Honorary politician.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022607bce53d17c42969b6452c8f71dff6d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it would be good to have some basic core competencies around that, as well. So when you look at the extensive powers\u2014I mean, we are very disappointed that we were not able to get that under schedule 1 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the good things in Part 2 of the bill is clause 35, \u201CReview of operation of Act\u201D, which means that in 3 years\u2019 time, when we are the Government, we will get to see whether or not this legislation has actually met its intentions, where the gaps are, and we will pledge to carry out a proper review of the Act. We believe that this was a lost opportunity and that there were real synergies and common goals that could have been built on between recreational hunters, or all hunters now. This bill was about just recreational hunters; it is now about all hunters, which changes the flavour significantly. We will see how the Act has operated in practice and whether the many, many concerns that officials right across the board from Treasury and the Department of Conservation raised during the development of this policy and the select committee process have been realised and, if they have been realised, we will see what we can then do about it. We do pledge to carry out a very thorough and transparent review of this Act in 3 years\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt would actually be good to have an element of independence, perhaps, in that review. The review of the operation of the Act, as it is currently in the bill, is that the Minister will do that, and, as we know, this is a Government that is not afraid to put out reviews that do not reflect reality but reflect what it wants reality to be. So it is a shame that there is not a little bit more independence in clause 35 in relation to the review of the operation of the Act, just to give the public confidence that this is not the Government finding what it wants to find, or trying to brush away any criticisms or concerns that claims it made about the way that the Act would operate have not actually come to pass. I think in terms of the very significant change that we made in Part 1 of the bill, which was to basically remove the word \u201Crecreational\u201D from the entire bill and now make this bill apply to all hunters. We are very concerned about that because we think it actually shuts the recreational guys out. We wanted to make it very clear that even though these are small, voluntary organisations\u2014they are recreational; they are not professional\u2014these are the people whom we really want to be involved in this process. We want them to be part of the engagement the Department of Conservation has, and now there is no requirement to do that, because there is no mention of the word \u201Crecreational\u201D. It is very telling that the change the Government made, which we will be reviewing, under clause 35 in Part 2 of this bill, never came to the select committee. At the select committee this was never raised with us as problem. Actually, this is Minister Bridges\u2019 modus operandi, so it is quite fortuitous that he is in the chair at the moment. It never came to the select committee. It was dropped\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002211fb46b34ddb45a3867c4b59945505c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211fb46b34ddb45a3867c4b59945505c3\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 395 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d25c512e2ac4495398b51159df121228\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000324\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 402 in the name of Eugenie Sage to clause 28 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d10b052ed8f480888c820a4d90fab33\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226894515dc7a64c3ba8c0691856e3b18b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1f3606a39d2423286e313688bf5dcfe\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b84a1270c1a24af8ad9027ed794c73c3\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002271fe008987824aed9293e45e35cb09d8\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dcf0251be4154724a906b2120e70e147\u0022\u003EClause 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e40861ce225b4cabaf64f0a0170ab7a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7cc8a5c70234aed882a47c3975cd2fb\u0022\u003EClause 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224a4a02cf3016450cab5039d34cf139f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000330\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000331\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea4ca944619645e18af8c568ae270eee\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00221b30dde300c94b18ac224ea717c59ba6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b30dde300c94b18ac224ea717c59ba6\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Conservation: I move, That the Game Animal Council Bill be now read a third time. This bill establishes an independent Game Animal Council to improve the management of wild game hunting in New Zealand. Hunting is a traditional free Kiwi pastime. The Government wants the thousands of New Zealanders who hunt continuing to enjoy and benefit from hunting while also contributing to the responsible management of wild animals to protect conservation and other values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Game Animal Council Bill establishes an independent statutory body to give greater representation to the interests of recreational hunters. The Game Animal Council aims to better manage recreational and commercial hunting activities for deer, tahr, chamois, and wild pigs. Key functions of the council include advising and making recommendations to the Minister of Conservation on hunting issues, providing information and education to the sector, promoting safety initiatives, conducting game-animal research, and undertaking management functions for designated herds of special interest. An independent whole-of-sector Game Animal Council will get hunters working together to improve cooperation within the sector and help resolve conflicts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe council\u2019s first task will be developing an industry-led code of practice for controversial aerially assisted trophy hunting methods such as shooting from a helicopter and herding and hazing. Once the code of practice is approved\u2014expected to be by the end of next year\u2014the Minister of Conservation will be able to make it a mandatory condition of aerially assisted trophy hunting concessions from the Department of Conservation by regulation. In the interim the Minister will be considering the inclusion of conditions requiring compliance with the existing voluntary code, which limits shooting from the air and the practices of herding and hazing in relevant concessions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe establishment of the Game Animal Council and regulations around the practice of aerially assisted trophy hunting are a core part of National\u2019s confidence and supply agreement with United Future. We would like to thank United Future leader Peter Dunne for his passion and determination in getting the Game Animal Council established and ensuring herd-and-chase style heli-hunting becomes a thing of the past. We would also like to thank the Local Government and Environment Committee for its work on this bill. Once this bill is passed the Minister of Conservation intends to move rapidly to establish the Game Animal Council so that it can get on with its important work. We all look forward to seeing its code of practice for aerially assisted trophy hunting. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed0e4628224a4c459f04c33c77508a2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed0e4628224a4c459f04c33c77508a2d\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker, thanks for giving me the call in the third reading of the Game Animal Council Bill. Originally when this bill was introduced Labour was very familiar with its history. As part of the confidence and supply agreement with United Future in the previous Government we established an advisory group that travelled the country and did a very good job, actually, on getting the various views on the subject that is now the point of this legislation. Margaret Austin was the leader of that process, and I want to commend her for her passion and integrity throughout that process. I also acknowledge the 4,000 or so submitters who contributed to the early thinking along that path. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, extreme views on either side. There are some who would say there should be no hunting at all in New Zealand, and some who would say there should not be a Department of Conservation. Those are not the views that the Local Government and Environment Committee was involved in hearing from and considering. We heard from a very large number of well-respected New Zealanders who had a contribution to make that was worthwhile. I really enjoyed that part of the process. Sometimes at select committees you get very few submitters, or you might get submitters who are just very narrow in their point of view and want to give only their perspective and do not consider anyone else, but that was not the case for all but a few of the submitters whom we heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMost of them were people who had a real passion for New Zealand and loved the outdoor life. For many of them it was the first time they had ever made a submission to a parliamentary committee. They were much more comfortable with their tramping boots, their shorts, and their Swanndri, out with a pack on their back than in the confines of a select committee room in front of a bunch of members of Parliament. But they were passionate about what they see as their patch, their part of the world, the public land of New Zealand, and their opportunity to hunt in a recreational capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThere was a lot of tension between the recreational hunters and the commercial hunters. I can remember one submitter who came and talked to us and told of how he had endured hours and hours and hours of climbing up very steep terrain\u2014I do not recall exactly where it was; it may have been in Taranaki\u2014to try to get a deer. He had got nearly to the top, nearly to the point where he would be able to shoot this deer, and a helicopter came over and just whooshed in and scared the deer away, and then they went off and shot some deer from the helicopter. He was pretty angry about that. He saw heli-hunting as a really bad practice and very intrusive on what he saw as a core part of his well-being, of his lifestyle as a New Zealander. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo not only do we have the physical benefits of hunting\u2014you know, people get out in the fresh air and they do a lot of hard work to get to the areas where they go hunting\u2014they obviously get food for their family, and, very importantly as well, they reduce the pests that we have got on our land. We have got a lot of work to do in that space. We have far too many pests that destroy the very environment that we all love so much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo the select committee process itself was a really good one. The committee worked, I think, across all parties in a very constructive way. We had a bit of a shortened process. We wanted a little bit longer to consider the bill, and I think we would have got a lot more agreement had we been given the little extension that we asked for. But, no, the bill was closed down. It got sent back to the House, and here it has sat for months on the Order Paper\u2014months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cdf53ae34b74f818b6e736989174f13\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225302e0d29a4e47e1bb0e42d3d6682f04\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is very odd. It was very frustrating for the committee. We said: \u201CWe think we can get this better. We think we can get this right. We think we can get agreement if we have a little bit longer.\u201D No, we were denied that opportunity\u2014\u201CGet that bill back to the House.\u201D Then the bill sat on the Order Paper for months and months and months, and here we are, on a Wednesday morning, under urgency, debating legislation that could have been brought to this House and dealt with in a proper manner. I think the process is offensive to good parliamentary process, and I am surprised that so many of the National Party members now just take it for granted that we will do things in a bad form, in a bad way. Well, what you get when you follow bad process is actually bad legislation. That is something that none of us would want. Even if we do not agree with legislation, we would want it to be robust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we have had the Minister of Conservation\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395. It was not discussed with any political parties before the debate started. It was not signalled during the months that we have had this bill on the Order Paper and not progressing through Parliament. It was just dropped on the Committee at the last minute. It was sort of \u201CI\u2019ve got the numbers. Who cares?\u201D. Well, actually, a lot of people do. A lot of people care about good process and about things being debated and considered properly, because in the end that is how you get high-quality legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think it is, above all, a wasted opportunity. It was an opportunity to get the various perspectives around this issue together and to work through their differences until you got agreement. I think that was absolutely possible. When we first debated this bill, Labour said we would support its referral to a select committee, but we did express our serious concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe expressed concerns about the actual structure of the Game Animal Council, which is a separate entity rather than a structure such as a ministerial advisory committee or any such comparable structure. That could have been set up under the Wild Animal Control Act. We did not need a separate piece of legislation. We did not need the type of consideration that this bill has gone through. Not only did we think that that was an unnecessary structure but also it was against the specific advice of both Treasury and the Department of Conservation. They said that setting up the Game Animal Council as a separate entity would set up direct and competing interests in the management of wild animals. They thought that it would be the highest cost in terms of regulatory time and in terms of resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESo here we have got an organisation that creates division, that creates confusion, and that costs heaps of money. I cannot see who is winning out of this so far. It does not sound like this is a win-win situation, when, of course, we could have had a win-win situation. The opportunity was there for us to take, and it was thrown away by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI want to put on record not just our appreciation of the submitters but also the respect and value that Labour places on recreational hunting in New Zealand. It is a core part of so many people\u2019s lives and it makes a huge contribution in terms of controlling animal numbers and protecting our biodiversity. We heard from many recreational hunters during the select committee process about their frustration with the Department of Conservation and how they were not able to work together. There was always tension; they were always arguing. We heard from others\u2014probably about similar numbers, actually\u2014about the strong, good, and healthy relationship that they had with the Department of Conservation in their areas. We heard the same from iwi. They said that in some parts of the country it worked like magic and in others it just was not working at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI wish we had been able to pick up the threads of what works in some areas and then develop a way of transposing that across the country so that every area could operate benefiting from the valuable staff and resources of the Department of Conservation and from recreational hunters, local iwi, community groups\u2014the list goes on and on and on. Why does it work in some parts of the country and not in others? We never really developed the answer to that question, but this bill is not the answer. The establishment of the Game Animal Council is not going to be the answer at all. I think that it will cause further division and tension, and it will not let us pick up the opportunity that we had of learning what works and replicating it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe did have a lot of discussion about the final determination of a proposal for conservation purposes, such as the dropping of 1080. My colleague Damien O\u2019Connor has already referred to that and put a pretty staunch stake in the ground in terms of his support for the use of 1080. We have had the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment saying that our forests will be silent unless we take a massive step up in terms of pest eradication, and 1080 is currently one of the most effective means of doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to mention is in regard to the funding of the council. That has been a very difficult issue, and it is one on which all members of the committee worked hard. The purpose of this legislation will not be achieved by what we have ended up with today, despite the best efforts of the select committee. The bill creates a tension between the Game Animal Council and the Department of Conservation\u2014the very thing it sought to remove. That is in no one\u2019s interest. When this bill is reviewed in 3 years, I hope that we can have an opportunity to improve it and really reshape it to achieve the purpose that was intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022609d29c4e9a24da99c85bb0147216f59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022609d29c4e9a24da99c85bb0147216f59\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we have heard a lot of debate about the Game Animal Council Bill in the House today, but I remain convinced of the positive outcomes of this bill\u2014the positive outcomes for the hunting community and the positive outcomes for the conservation estate. In fact, it has confirmed my belief that hunting and conservation can and must go hand in hand. There is plenty of evidence to support the belief that the majority of those attracted to our great outdoors as recreationalists\u2014in this case, hunters\u2014learn to love our special places and become entrenched conservationists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis bill is a significant achievement for hunters. It gives them much more say in their sport. But it is also designed to improve the outcomes for, and protection of, the conservation estate, because it provides for better management of herds of special significance in specified areas. The Game Animal Council is a framework for collaborative, intelligent management of hunting and game animals. Those animals are tahr, chamois, deer, and wild pigs. This is in really stark contrast to the rather haphazard, divided, and often confrontational management, or lack of management, that is in place currently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe Local Government and Environment Committee spent many hours investigating and discussing this bill. There has been huge interest in the topic and active discussion since back in 2005. We heard from a significant number of submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229de711796fc74fce975996d12f7a31a9\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffed455531e9432fa43efb4aa7b967dd\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d33f7ed0b33464cb4efb1041e8b2060\u0022\u003EPike River Mine Disaster\u2014Compensation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00228b34b7e779914a45804c54f35abbfc2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b34b7e779914a45804c54f35abbfc2c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00229b4082101dc34a3fa5b56ff14cd3e317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b4082101dc34a3fa5b56ff14cd3e317\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022189c241eccac4354a4c2febde9f1613a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given that he told the House yesterday that he had no idea whether ACC or the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, as shareholders of New Zealand Oil and Gas, had voted against paying compensation to the Pike River families, has he since bothered to check?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe11627eb1244211abfa8b2a7cd0b9c4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that as independent fund managers and as minority shareholders in New Zealand Oil and Gas, ACC and the Superannuation Fund voted against that motion. That motion, if carried, would have seen New Zealand Oil and Gas, a 29 percent shareholder in Pike River Coal, pay out on behalf of the other 71 percent. Of course, ACC and the Superannuation Fund are a small proportion of the 29 percent. However, I am concerned to see reports that the Leader of the Opposition would instruct ACC and the Superannuation Fund in making investment decisions that are, by statute, independent. The Leader of the Opposition\u2019s position is probably unlawful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b69fba6df148389fa2d4f62170d64b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, does the Acting Prime Minister believe that it is possible for the Government to recover any of the money from the corporate parents of Pike River Coal, or is he just giving up on the miners\u2019 families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f2b962e50a41c598643f0eeaa73562\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, I am advised that there is no legal mechanism by which the Crown could pursue that company. No one has given up on the miners\u2019 families. The advice I have seen is that families of the miners have been paid around $5 million by ACC, and we would expect that the longer-term support for those families will amount to some $20 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227995b408994b4c3194dc29bc1fb1a2cf\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by Simon Bridges\u2019 comment that Cabinet did not discuss the Government\u2019s moral responsibility to the Pike River families; if so, does he not think that they deserve better than that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229031972e8d704d788d8629485601ea7b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do support the Minister of Labour\u2019s comments. The Government\u2019s moral obligations are met through the statutory systems put in place to support these families. In this case that system has supported them to the extent of around $5 million so far, and we would expect that the extent of just ACC support will amount to some $20 million for the families. As I said to the House yesterday, the Crown needs to bear in mind, in discussing how to deal with these families, the fact that every day in New Zealand families experience tragedies they would rather avoid, and they would have every right to expect equal treatment with the Pike River families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b362784e1b60499eb7853852aa37ee88\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement of the Hon Christopher Finlayson that \u201CThe Government is fully aware of its obligations to these families.\u201D, but did nothing on compensation; if so, does that mean that the Government decided that it has no legal or moral obligations to pay compensation to those families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022308ce08e68a648b692863de618177f48\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have answered those questions previously. The member is carrying on as if there has been no support for these families, and that is simply incorrect. I will just reiterate the facts around ACC support, according to my advice. About $5 million has been paid to these families through ACC on the same basis as any other family that suffers a workplace or accident death, and we expect that the full support for these families will amount to around $20 million. Every other family in New Zealand that experiences a tragedy, which may be less high profile and less politicised by the Opposition, has a right to expect equal treatment to the Pike River families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8e6e5faaa9470ebf8e02f3d5306b11\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Acting Prime Minister think that putting the burden on an accident compensation corporation that actually voted against compensation going to the families is a sufficient answer, when this is the only case where a Government department glossy has been found culpable, when a Minister has resigned, when 29 miners lie dead and still buried under the earth, and that Government is walking away from its moral obligation to the families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fda8646554b472ea4b30a62691129e8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It does not matter how often the member says it, he needs to understand that every New Zealand family who experiences a tragedy\u2014and every day there are some\u2014deserves equal treatment to the Pike River families. The Government has fully supported these families through the statutory processes, it has committed millions of dollars to the recovery of the bodies, it has met its moral obligation to take all the steps recommended by the Royal Commission on the Pike River Coal Mine Tragedy to ensure that these tragic events do not occur again. But, finally, the Government has to act on behalf of all New Zealanders. Every New Zealand family who suffers a tragedy deserves equal treatment. And I challenge the Leader of the Opposition to show me a family who has lost someone in a workplace tragedy who should be treated less carefully and less supportively than the Pike River families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208de43593fff47f6a94d5d311d1aca88\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Acting Prime Minister agree with the founding shareholder of New Zealand Oil and Gas, Gordon Clout, that the company should \u201Cremove their blinkers, man up, face reality, and demonstrate humility to financially support the hurting and grieving families.\u201D; if so, why will his Government not do the same?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a32ba2f666b40a9b71e88b32eb42d4c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As I have explained to the member, and I will go through it again, the families have had the benefit of $5 million of payments from ACC so far, and they can expect a further $15 million of support. The Government has committed, I think, $10 million to the recovery of the bodies. We have met our moral obligations by implementing all of the royal commission recommendations, to ensure that this does not happen again, including a very considerable commitment of taxpayer resources to a new workplace safety agency. I reiterate my final point. The Leader of the Opposition needs to show us a New Zealand family who lost someone in a workplace accident that should get less than the Pike River families, and I do not think he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022449fa505893949c9a7fa9ed9f8eb2359\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety, Workplace\u2014Forestry Industry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00226c02a02d2ff841469be47a3684b3a6b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c02a02d2ff841469be47a3684b3a6b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (M\u0101ori Party\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What is he doing to improve industry standards and to resource safety inspectors appropriately in order to respond to analysis from the Chief Coroner that the forestry sector has the nation\u2019s highest rate of workplace injury deaths?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fededd82b48a427aa342ef700be221fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fededd82b48a427aa342ef700be221fd\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for the question. This Government released the Approved Code of Practice for Safety and Health in Forestry Operations in December last year, which clearly lays out what is expected of industry. In August I announced the Working Safer reform package, which will see significantly increased funding for workplace health and safety, and will especially target high-risk industries like forestry, on an operational level, as an example. I am advised that in the past 10 weeks alone, inspectors have carried out 135 workplace assessments across logging operations nationwide, and this proactive enforcement work is continuing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f85c874ea8f4333947772dfc446f379\u0022\u003EHon Dr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: In addition, what immediate initiatives has the Minister put in place on the ground to address safety standards in the forestry industry, given that 188 serious harm notifications were made last year\u2014the highest number in the last 5 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022829e257258844ff9a33457bf8512fb63\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of initiatives, but I think that probably the most significant on the ground, as the Minister has said, is the one where inspectors are going to every single forestry operation in the country\u2014as I say, 135 so far. By the time that is finished\u2014and those inspectors are doing it with some pace\u2014it will be some 300, and there has been a range of enforcement actions taken already, such as written warnings and infringement notices, and in some cases, actually closing down the operations for safety reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8800dfbfab480295af387e40dc66d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any feedback from the families who have lost loved ones in forestry accidents on what they recommend is needed to stem the tide of fatalities in the forestry sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bce43809f474cc28f36c362072025e4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have had conversations by telephone in my constituent office with wh\u0101nau members of people who have passed away through forestry, and the message they give me loud and clear is that they want action, and that, I think, is what this Government is delivering through the approved code of practice, through visiting every forestry contracting operation, and through WorkSafe New Zealand, which starts next month and is receiving significantly more funding to deal with high-hazard industries such as, importantly, forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224636b4e513d04e759eb20041bac02f74\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: How can he insist that his approved code of practice is adequate when the sixth forestry worker killed this year was working in the pitch black of night, invisible to workmates, and the approved code of practice says only that \u201CWhere night work is required, the employer shall ensure that the level of illumination does not cause a hazard.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d90074bd950041cab6452387e5144831\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I think the approved code of practice is necessary but not sufficient, and, as I have made very clear, there is quite a number of other things we are doing. I think what is confirmed by the coroner\u2019s case study on forestry, which Pita Sharples has referred to, is that, actually, the things that are the focus of that approved code of practice\u2014tree-felling and breaking out, which contribute to a significant number of these fatalities\u2014are the big issues, and are what, as I say, the approved code of practice focuses squarely on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6566a46c1dd41a59236de6f1d7b5269\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Air New Zealand, Revenue, and Public Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022432ce5cd27e54673a675e3b3e4bec0d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022432ce5cd27e54673a675e3b3e4bec0d3\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has the Government made on the next steps in its share offer programme, which is freeing up money to invest in new public assets without having to borrow from overseas lenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8824a8a5bae4679a50343e54f569be8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8824a8a5bae4679a50343e54f569be8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Last night we announced the Government had successfully issued 20 percent of the shares in Air New Zealand. The shares were placed at $1.65 each\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229268ad39a65e4842ae0245470f5586ed\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: And they\u2019ve dived this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41a2626b94241a1ab20dad2ea48623d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes, was it not a good deal\u2014and raised $365 million for taxpayers. The Government has retained 53 percent of the airline, and when Air New Zealand resumed trading today 88 percent of the company was owned by New Zealanders. This is the latest step in the Government\u2019s share offer programme, which has now raised almost $4 billion, which has been placed in the Future Investment Fund for investing in priority public assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5fb93a025d245ddbe5a7a0bf1d3d3fc\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How did the Government ensure that New Zealanders were at the front of the queue for shares in Air New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c525dd938cc49508214b812192222ad\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Shares were offered to New Zealand sharebrokers for on-selling to New Zealanders. A condition of New Zealand brokers participating was that shares were allocated only to clients who met the New Zealand client test: having an IRD number, a New Zealand bank account, and a New Zealand address. The Government achieved its target of at least 85 percent New Zealand ownership. The Opposition cannot make up its mind whether that New Zealand ownership is rich mates of the National Party or poor mums and dads who have been ripped off\u2014we have heard both from the interjections today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265a8878d598448a4b923c50b0547415a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why were the shares available only to a handful of select brokers at incredibly short notice, while other Kiwi mum and dad investors were shut out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022056eacab2a404b719de3bc50005c774c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The nature of the offer was determined by the fact that the company is already listed on the stock exchange, and that means that mums and dads, whether they have a sharebroker or not, could buy shares any day of the week at the market price, more cheaply than the price for which they were sold yesterday, and today they can buy shares at the market price. We are satisfied that we have achieved 85 percent\u2014in fact, 88 percent\u2014New Zealand ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de6791c92e2c4df1ae4c875dd00b32d1\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an email I received this morning that states: \u201CAs a current Air New Zealand shareholder, I was looking to buy more shares in the Government sell-down. I rang my bank, which I have shares\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022829250602f2243f28907e692f8d970a8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The email has been adequately described. I will put the leave. [Interruption] The question has been asked whether anything has been redacted. [Interruption] Order! The name has been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286b67e13e47f4f3e860ce031d35ecd76\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e740165050142fdadbf55cd3d7ec29e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Allow me to put the leave first, and then if there is a point of order, I will take it. Leave has been sought to table an email. The name has been removed. There are no further redactions. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71502d9e768493d9c8faf7e2228bf76\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your assistance in this matter. The Leader of the House has seen fit to impugn the integrity of the member, who has said that he has received an email. To prove it, I have sought to table the email, but the Government has refused leave to have that tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcb22db31c8e43b88e2011e5d617a5bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I put leave. Leave was refused by the House. Any member has the right to deny leave. Is the member now raising a point of order that he has been offended?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f286a24cd99a4a3b9c722afbb2e1986d\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229081f905251a443f8b3d16a38e83539c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If offence is taken, I am unsure of the remark that could have possibly offended the member. I presume you are referring to an interjection from the Hon Gerry Brownlee. Can I ask Mr Brownlee, if he offended the member, would he stand and withdraw that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251762f9eb49f42cb9798452e333d5398\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think I offended him. Of course I do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253382e5df5254d26a72fba02bbf8e702\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206d610f5def6470ab62c2a11d1961879\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I found him out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f246b1a3a844898f0346cf727d5ae9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will stand and withdraw the comment that offended the House and Mr Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022596e06b063c042148c9c4a01075016e9\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you might reflect on exactly what has been asked for here, and give the House a ruling as to where offence intersects with being found out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c307bc910d9a4a669857aab727dbde2b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] No, I do not need any assistance. As I said, I did not hear an offence that came from this side of the House that I would have thought offended the member. The member said that he was offended. That is the end of the matter. If a member takes offence, he has a right to ask that that member withdraw and apologise for the comment. There is the difficulty that I have to judge every time as to whether it is reasonable that a member was offended. On this occasion, because I did not hear the remark, I accepted the comments from the Hon David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac661105dd934e06823ef946519b61fb\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Accepting that ruling, I wonder what reflection you might have for the House on when a senior member of the House directly challenges your ruling through a point of order. I have noticed you being very hard on members of this side of the House when they have done that and threatened them with ejection. I wonder whether the same thing applies to the Leader of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f88d1cdb744176b78b926fc78a95fe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the point made by Mr Brownlee was like that. He was asking as to whether, when some remarks are thrown in a political chamber, they can be considered as offensive or not. That is a line-ball call on many occasions. I have made the call that on this occasion I will accept that the member was offended and we move from there. I cannot give a categoric assurance where a ruling might go next time; it depends on the remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c79f0ceb86064c4daf1febf0d03a3b4f\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The published Speakers\u2019 rulings make it very clear that when a member is asked to withdraw and apologise, they are not then allowed to comment on that matter. That is the end of the matter. What Gerry Brownlee then did was raise another point of order where he commented directly on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220967b7e3097f462a83b872f0fee757d9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I certainly accept that members should not then further interject or refer once they have been asked to withdraw and apologise. That is accepted. But the member Mr Brownlee then raised a reasonable point. There are some remarks that are traded across this House that may, to some person, cause offence, because some people are more sensitive than others. That is something I have to determine on the occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220016baa860cf415a8205e3901e5d674b\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How has Air New Zealand performed under the mixed-ownership structure introduced by the previous Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c2ee25e462404fb04848364bd56755\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I want to acknowledge the foresight of the previous Labour Government in setting up the mixed-ownership model for Air New Zealand. Air New Zealand has performed very well under this structure and it would be regarded as probably the best-managed small airline in the world. I also note that the previous Government was flexible about the degree of ownership of Air New Zealand. The airline was initially 82 percent owned by the New Zealand Government. By the time we came to float 20 percent it had reduced to 73 percent ownership, which means a Labour Government reduced Government ownership in Air New Zealand by stealth or without recognising that it was happening. We have no doubt that if the airline had been 100 percent Government-owned it would not have performed nearly as well as it has, and on behalf of the taxpayer I thank the Labour Government for its foresight. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cbf161ec0724c0b94b8aacf896b7014\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Supplementary question, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. [Interruption] Order! I have called the Hon Clayton Cosgrove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f3521f6471c4d77828c7236648c7463\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim that the asset sales programme is a success when the three sales to date have raised $1 billion less than he promised the New Zealand people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d965dc63c8794eca9e3832c7ec92329f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not correct. The proceeds will be less for the reason that one of the companies, Solid Energy, is simply not appropriate for public sale. We are very pleased to have just a shade under $4 billion in the bank, which we will be spending on rebuilding Christchurch, building new hospitals, and revamping modern learning environments all around New Zealand without having to kowtow to foreign bankers the way that the Greens and Labour want us to so that our children can have decent schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383c06964dd143e6a300a8f008b4e73e\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of that last answer, how can he say that the asset sales programme is a success when the amount raised from the sell-down of Air New Zealand will pay for only 36 hours of Government operational expenditure at the same time as the Government continues to borrow $424 million per month and when net debt has increased by $5.087 billion in a year? Is that kowtowing to foreign bankers or what? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bd4301a489d4a5fac55c7b87743745f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member has a right to ask the question. Now we have all got a right to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ec8b3fbf434c438231112dd8eaea0b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is successful because tens of thousands of New Zealanders now have direct ownership and probably a million have indirect ownership of these assets. The Government has $4 billion from New Zealanders who want to invest in large New Zealand companies, which we will use to invest in decent public housing, modern public schools, and rebuilding Christchurch while Labour and the Greens will have to go crawling to foreign bankers to get that money. We do not have to; we got it off New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b798bd9c5ce8465790488fcf37d3a1d7\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that there is public support for the asset sales programme in light of polls showing two-thirds opposed, and will he take the upcoming referendum on asset sales as a measure of public support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fdf4402cb994e6b9b7cd6b4a69368aa\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: What I think is a fact, whether that member believes it or not, is that there was public support for a Government that transparently campaigned on selling assets. I also happen to think that there is public support for the Government investing in public assets using money from New Zealanders who have the opportunity to invest in large New Zealand companies rather than doing what that member wants, which is to borrow even more from foreign bankers. Quite why he prefers to deal with foreign bankers rather than New Zealand savers is beyond me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f77a133de99441d2a86a34a13dd2ff92\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen supporting the Government\u2019s share offer in Air New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a88a4eca3de470d9d8eb1d9a2707b4d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a range of comment in the last 24 hours indicating that the Government got a pretty good deal here. We have sold the shares for $1.65, which was the market price, when normally this kind of sale would involve a discount. That means $365 million that is now in the Future Investment Fund, which we will be able to use to invest in better classrooms for our children, a modern hospital in Christchurch, and we are able to do it without going and borrowing the money from foreign bankers, like Labour and the Greens want to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5a7c4a596cd49048e7ec24caead2e2e\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee0ac69d89b4aa0ac9f2751d35f61ac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am just waiting for a bit of silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022687ac0991c1146dd9733551446078489\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his reported comments that he plans to take non-voters in the upcoming referendum as supporters of the asset sale programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e80457b4044d14878ef78ceee3f25e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not recall those comments. What I did say, I think, is that we would expect a reasonably low turnout. I know that the Opposition parties are disappointed that there is no marching in the streets about the sale of Air New Zealand, but then why would there be? The Labour Government invented the mixed-ownership model. It was proven to be successful and we built on that success. It is no wonder that New Zealanders are not quite as worried about this as the Greens and Labour, which seem more concerned about doing better business with foreign bankers than giving New Zealanders the opportunity to save.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3abdcbf61904271a4de06e2c11ff0fa\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister accept that if there is a majority No vote in the upcoming referendum\u2014the best opportunity for the people of New Zealand to have their voice on this specific issue\u2014the people of New Zealand do not accept his asset sale programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcd7b7cf82be4d5ba3a06f5d3f61e97b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: What is surprising is that for a party that says that it believes in the voice of the people, it seems to regard the 2011 election as some kind of illegitimate intervention in the reign of the previous Government. The fact is that we campaigned transparently on this policy, and I invite that member in the next campaign to campaign transparently on the impact of his climate change policy on household costs, and we will hold him to the same standard as we met on asset sales.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f98092f035c4035b68782f786d9e65b\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a simple question, which the Minister did not address, which was whether he would take a majority No vote in the referendum as the people of New Zealand opposing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204f10cd1c2304ba8a54776f5ef0e0716\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I invite the member to relook at Hansard and have a look at the question. The question then talked about \u201Cis it not the best opportunity for New Zealanders to have their say.\u201D The Minister then responded and said that the best opportunity, in his opinion, was the election that was held in 2011. The question was adequately addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202587bfaab0248e19f7ba9528f96c826\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Waiting Lists for Elective Surgery\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002252e91473e6c44865b5ada100a20358ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252e91473e6c44865b5ada100a20358ef\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by all his answers to Oral Question No. 9 yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef343797d4b944c29fbe03b0107084c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef343797d4b944c29fbe03b0107084c7\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, within the context they were given and, in particular, that a record 23,000 patients received orthopaedic treatment in the last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022833e96edf3e441c984926e6fdb5cd1bc\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of his answer yesterday that there are \u201Ctwo separate figures\u201D relating to patients waiting for surgery\u2014those on a waiting list at a certain date and those \u201Cwho did not even get on the waiting list\u201D\u2014can he inform the House how disabled and sick a patient must be before they can get on the official waiting list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267c869ee6c424bf9841a0426bfd97f4f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is a clinical decision that would be made by the various clinicians who are assessing those patients. What I can tell the member, though\u2014and thank you for the opportunity to be able to say this\u2014is that in the last year we have provided 40,000 more elective operations, compared with 5 years ago. That is a really significant achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed7f727cbb6c455b95e039278a585d97\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: As he sets the level of funding that the district health boards receive, thereby influencing the priorities they implement, does he believe that a patient who suffers the pain of bone graunching on bone, who is forced to climb stairs on his hands and knees, sounds sick enough to get on his official waiting list for surgery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282445f4a0cac4907bcf1b2dac0854857\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The first thing I would say is that if that member wants to bring that case to me, I will look into it. It is better to help patients than to use them. On the second issue of funding, this Government has put in an average of $500 million a year extra into the health service and millions more into elective surgery. What is interesting about all these questions is that the Opposition parties have been promising to cut back on elective surgeries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6f1435d90164229a6788ac95b0a97c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Melissa Lee. [Interruption] Order! I have called Melissa Lee. By the sound of it there was an interjection, which I did not hear. If a member took objection, then stand and raise that objection with me. I have called Melissa Lee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be4133137f0b4b4a9f33ac0dc9c475c5\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received confirming that in June 2005 there were around 31,000 patients booked in for assessments or surgery who had been waiting over 6 months, and what reports has he seen of surgeons\u2019 views as to what happened to these patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166b4bba645247599951dbc52cc73446\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: An independent review by the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General confirmed that in June 2005 around 30,000 patients had been waiting over 6 months. I have seen many other reports that around 30,000 patients were summarily removed from these lists soon after this, by Government edict. Amongst these was a report of 74 of the Canterbury District Health Board\u2019s 80 surgeons signing a letter condemning Labour\u2019s waiting list cull of 5,000 patients off Canterbury\u2019s list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78e3ba295334ff4ade8b350ba992324\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That answer is sufficient. [Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d970bb1c3ab74bb6972efa705f74ffbb\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does a patient who was dumped from the waiting list earlier this year and now takes at least eight painkillers a day, who cannot sit without wincing, and uses crutches to get about, sound sick enough to get on his official waiting list after 5 years of his stewardship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ee0330d0484b4793445d3df1420ccd\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is referring to the case that was in the Christchurch Press a few days ago, it is my understanding that that person was not on a waiting list, so the claim is not valid. However, that patient is being considered by the Canterbury District Health Board. But the great news in Canterbury, of course, is that in the last 5 years at the Canterbury District Health Board we have increased elective surgeries by 48 percent, compared with a 13 percent cut under Annette King.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a6e1caf4644a0980f588f80218afff\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does a patient who has lost the ability to stand, whose general practitioner can no longer manage his pain, and he is likely to go into a wheelchair, forcing him to sell his home, sound sick enough to get on his official waiting list, or does he have to stay on the hidden list and remain just one of the Minister\u2019s figures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb36f7f5b15340d9a6365a70c765fee1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Let me review this straight away. There is no hidden list. That is about as reliable as Annette King\u2019s Official Information Act request, where the number was inexplicably changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde6a44c29f042c5afc030f2d711b3e9\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to table two documents, in light of the Minister\u2019s claiming\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffbeb5524d6f4784a06f8be38110da8f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Just describe the two documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8845dcc61014925907eb6d51fc9b672\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: The first is a letter from the Waikato District Health Board, stating that 376 patients were denied surgery and sent back to their general practitioners because they could not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239b24550396412a83a2efbad8c2e57f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is adequately described. The second document, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec2b05c24244606a96ef2362793c4c6\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: The second one is a letter from the MidCentral District Health Board, stating that 161 patients were denied surgery and sent back to their general practitioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022759f124952c74a65b43fb427b6ef1eda\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I will put the leave for those two letters\u2014one from the Waikato District Health Board and one from the MidCentral District Health Board. Is there any objection to those two letters being tabled? There is none. They can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d2447280155442bbbe757708a74eae8\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an editorial from a small provincial paper\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e958b39f72d4de9abbd6e2794d50020\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume her seat. If members want to search for that, they can find it for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224fee449e90b44c0d923dc829a67368e0\u0022\u003EBusiness Growth Agenda\u2014Purpose, Impact, and Construction Sector Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022 data-id=\u00224f1b6f2bf8c14476a5e95d84fbea7f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f1b6f2bf8c14476a5e95d84fbea7f9e\u0022\u003EDr JIAN YANG (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: How is the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda helping to strengthen the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002244bc7d60e5f24b049459510a9b38e8bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244bc7d60e5f24b049459510a9b38e8bf\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E The Business Growth Agenda is a detailed and comprehensive programme to encourage businesses to make new investments to build jobs and long-term growth for New Zealanders, and it is working. Today the OECD released its latest economic outlook report. It is forecasting growth for New Zealand reaching 3.6 percent in the calendar year 2004. This forecast would put New Zealand growth rates in the top six for developed economies\u2014above the OECD average of 2.4 percent and actually much better than Australia\u2019s at 2.7 percent. The OECD is also forecasting an improvement in the current account deficit, forecasting the deficit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac8288807a5474abf050f0f07478545\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, a Minister has got to be relatively accurate. We do not want to hear about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af13e17899c4299935aa0e07cf885c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I want to know what the point of order is. Debating the answer is not a point of order; that is a debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2961a95f60745b2bbf47b1d4f235aa5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, you have not heard it yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022609e0f32166a4259884223fd71af1678\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then I want to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bdf4b27af2946c2a79460a25a5437af\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you are going to hear it now if you sit down and I will give it to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252910ff20185450e868073f626b628fa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I will be lenient because the member has the next question, but if he treats the Speaker like that in the future, he will not be here for the balance of question time. [Interruption] Order! I invite the member to quickly come to his point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d348f0f92c3d4934b46a68b54debcb76\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is that he gave the growth report for 2004\u20149 years ago. That is my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39dffdaf1d24e7a8bae0c1cf492dc13\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That may well be the point, but I do not think that is the fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d8fa78953d41bbb306463cd7d5c1f0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I invite you to check the Hansard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251fc848235204023aaaeb48f1122051d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will check the Hansard. I invite the member to resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b224a57dbaa433ab2941fb84e973b23\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps a little more slowly for the member\u2014the OECD is forecasting growth for New Zealand reaching 3.6 percent in the calendar year 2014, Mr Peters. This forecast would put New Zealand growth rates in the top six for developed economies\u2014above the OECD average of 2.4 percent and much better than Australia\u2019s at 2.7 percent. The OECD is also forecasting an improvement in the current account deficit, forecasting the deficit will narrow from 4.3 percent of GDP to 3.6 percent of GDP in 2014. The Government\u2019s relentless focus on encouraging investment via the Business Growth Agenda is clearly working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7e22383ab524245ae759ac8e2602f57\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What steps is the Government taking to encourage further investment for jobs and growth for Kiwi families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022097298bfdc15480ab8f0024fac373359\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Business Growth Agenda is a comprehensive programme of work that encourages investment. On Monday the Minister of Finance and I released a 2013 progress report, which updates progress on the approximately 350 separate initiatives. It builds on access to the six key inputs business needs to succeed: growing and adding jobs, capital market access, natural resources, infrastructure, skills, and innovation. It includes initiatives like oil and gas exploration, the apprenticeship reboot, more flexible labour market conditions, the Government\u2019s series of Resource Management Act reforms, the mixed-ownership model, the New Zealand International Convention Centre, and the roads of national significance, to name just a few. The interesting thing\u2014and New Zealanders will note this\u2014is that the Opposition opposes almost every one of those initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022656487fe-e0a2-485c-8dc2-fe61b9aec128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a11280cca14f059f084cf542ed4fc6\u0022\u003EDr Jian Yang\u003C/span\u003E: What initiatives in the Business Growth Agenda are aimed at helping the construction sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227efef2f13a934b66b3c890902f176de4\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The construction sector is, of course, one of the largest sectors in the New Zealand economy. It generates annual revenues of more than $30 billion and employs around 170,000 people. A big challenge in the sector is to grow skills training to help meet these skilled employment requirements for the coming construction boom. The Government\u2019s revamp of the apprenticeship scheme in the apprenticeship reboot is seeing very big numbers of people signing up for construction apprenticeships. We have also spent approaching $60 million in expanding priority trades at institutes of technology. That has led to an expansion of trades facilities around the country, including in Wellington, where today I was pleased to be able to announce the development of a $13.6 million Regional School of Construction by the Wellington Institute of Technology and Whitireia Community Polytechnic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209585a96ccb44fa3af89d1ba71d5b973\u0022\u003EImmigration\u2014Confidence in Minister and Immigration New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002273161851d2ee4ed3acebe84ed06a64d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273161851d2ee4ed3acebe84ed06a64d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he have confidence in the Minister of Immigration; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022873c3e52700841afaac6a2ab9dc42900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022873c3e52700841afaac6a2ab9dc42900\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Acting Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E : Yes, because he is a competent, hard-working Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022375d7bf918a14588850dc8d85e9275ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can he have confidence in the Minister of Immigration when the Minister\u2019s department is failing its own internal quality assurance checks, ignoring the Auditor-General\u2019s 2009 inquiry findings, and running Immigration New Zealand as a visa-stamping factory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d722bafa48354ed3920bae85f33c497b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not believe that those things are true, but I understand that visas do have to be stamped at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9629113feb04797ad1375a5fabd37e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can he have confidence in the Minister of Immigration when Immigration New Zealand\u2019s own internal quality assurance results indicate that over 20 percent of the decisions made by Immigration New Zealand are of poor quality, which means that tens of thousands of wrong decisions are being made each year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022471092440c994d58a00e6785beded641\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that that is what the numbers mean but it is a good thing that Immigration New Zealand has its own internal quality assurance process. We would not be surprised if it achieved less than 100 percent, or top quality. But we would expect, where it does fall short of 100 percent, that action is taken to improve the quality of those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292c3d3e2395b4863874fe42dea468853\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can he have confidence in the Minister of Immigration when that Minister has ignored the Auditor-General\u2019s recommendation that Immigration New Zealand should focus on the quality of migrants, rather than quantity, as stated in the inquiry report, which reads as follows: \u201Creview the emphasis on target setting in Immigration New Zealand branches to ensure that the quality of visa and permit decisions is not compromised;\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae2370bc84d472589060608c7f0a39f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that the Minister and the department have paid a good deal of attention to the Auditor-General\u2019s recommendations and are implementing them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e500101f9e443eb90903e417a2f0a3f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can he have confidence in the Minister of Immigration when he is concerned only about having an overall net positive immigration to New Zealand so that the number of New Zealanders leaving to Australia is somehow neutralised and does not reflect poorly on the current Government\u2019s policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c940f4701488482eb3d1e2023e48e246\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I would disagree with the assertions of the member. The number of migrants coming in is pretty similar to what it has been for some time. The change in migration numbers is because there are a lot fewer New Zealanders leaving. We look forward to the member\u2019s support for the policies that are going to continue to retain more New Zealanders here and have less migration out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249298e3eddcf4596a6d856bf0ba3fe98\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Bit late now! How can he have confidence in the Minister of Immigration, who said yesterday in this House that there is no evidence that people-smugglers were selling opportunities to immigrate to New Zealand and that the Australian journalist was perpetuating, in his words, \u201Ca heinous lie\u201D, when half an hour later he was outside talking to journalists and admitting that the department alone was now investigating 30 cases, just as we alleged? How can he have confidence in an incompetent Minister like that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273b5410c530a4069b8372ef171b482fc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister does have confidence in a Minister who understands that people-smugglers will say all sorts of stuff, particularly to the media, about what they can deliver. If people-smugglers in the Asia-Pacific region are promising that they can get people to New Zealand for $40,000 or whatever it is they pay, then he needs to be reassured that when people who pay that amount of money turn up at our border, they will be dealt with decisively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b92bd94b570d46828f035f5042dd39a2\u0022\u003ESchools, Canterbury\u2014Building and Redevelopment Projects\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c12ce2a1a8c64b6ca81ef4ee497643f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c12ce2a1a8c64b6ca81ef4ee497643f7\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: How much of the over $1 billion announced for refurbishing Christchurch schools last week will come from money the schools were already due to receive in the form of regular property funding, leaky buildings remediation, and insurance payouts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u00223ca8099ee50c4c5bae50383ddf2aa7ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ca8099ee50c4c5bae50383ddf2aa7ab\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E As I said yesterday to the honourable member, it is no secret that a combination of funding is reflected in the $1.137 billion investment in Christchurch, including any insurance payout that is yet to be determined. However, I want to be as helpful as I can. The current working provision we have is approximately $400 million of ministry baseline funding and over $700 million extra funding, including any insurance payout. Only the most jaded and graceless would be anything but delighted with an investment of over $1 billion to provide a better education for the children and young people of Christchurch. This investment is a combination of funding\u2014much like Mr Cunliffe\u2019s grasp on the leadership, some\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d567291a8204dcfacbd981a65f9b027\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That part will not help the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224424838b613f4f859a6a342509633a6f\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did she receive a report in June last year that showed that the Ministry of Education had been planning before the quakes to spend up to $710 million over 10 years on Christchurch schools anyway; if so, how on earth did she come up with the figures that she gave in her answer to the primary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f1a18c51a744c5a10e6b8f02d4f13e\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot speak to the specific June report from last year that the member is referencing, but the Ministry of Education routinely makes provision for total school networks. If what we are being accused of is prudent money management, then we are happy to be accused of that. We have continued to update the provision for Christchurch as more detailed information has come to hand, and that is what has been reflected in the final announcement that I made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281df9399031c4ca58ffe438f698a8136\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did she receive and consider up-to-date population and demographic projections\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022593c53e8174b45c99075e2162bc0f8e3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am very close to the member and I cannot hear the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcf09580a607424eadff1b4d3de1a4e9\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did she receive and consider up-to-date population and demographic projections for the greater Christchurch area, before making the final decisions that she announced last week\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fec784378174d4e9552e866608212f2\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I can tell that the Minister cannot actually hear the question that is being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232dce82865a649d3aa454f079d322673\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the microphone not working? [Interruption] Order! I have a suggestion. We will try it with a lot less intervention and noise coming from other seats in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249845f6e9f1342d4a2de18efaaf7c461\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It would take all the fun out of it. Did she receive and consider up-to-date population and demographic projections for the greater Christchurch area, before making the final decisions on the proposals she announced last week; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e88d667b5993411c93c7963b4e09bed3\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: We use continuously updated projections on demographic growth and, more specifically, on projections for actual school rolls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278d687a19b95481e87c3f4b146e0aeb6\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: How will the recently announced investment in Christchurch contribute to raising achievement for all children and young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022307dcf6b828e498392b2676e42372040\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The investment we are making in Christchurch will give schools modern facilities, including better access to the latest technology. Students will be able to take advantage of a citywide digital learning network that extends curriculum choice and allows them to study in ways that better suit their preferred learning style. Improving the quality of education so that more students can succeed is a vital part of the renewal of greater Christchurch. That is why we have invested over a billion dollars in the next 10 years to provide a modern centre of learning for the children and young people of Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a70ea27261d144a0bc24707ba7cbfd94\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Are public-private partnerships being considered for the rebuild of existing schools that have not been considered for merger or closure as part of the renewal process; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d313be25c5fd44ad9b5ba2e54ef75f86\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: They might be, because we are interested in a range of procurement approaches. The reason why we might be particularly interested in public-private partnerships is that they take on the whole-of-life management of the property, thus liberating the principal to focus on raising achievement of the students at their school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e42ba00e4a94f75b07d6aea0170d33b\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will communities have the ability to reject the use of public-private partnerships for the rebuild of their local school if they wish to; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e440fbf328435d82a4b46090fe1af2\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: The purchase decisions that are related to over a billion dollars will be driven by what the best outcome is for the particular school community, as well as what the most prudent use of taxpayers\u2019 money is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0605677e04f4f97bc59a8c9370ccae1\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question asked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8f25e97bf7499dab924bfef3ec6923\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member to repeat the question. The Minister may not have heard it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ef2c13ac7e84eb2a23e05e4489d1f91\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will communities have the ability to reject the use of a public-private partnership for the build or rebuild of their local school; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022914389c6809d4dc99239031b7b1b36eb\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: If a public-private procurement method is chosen for a community, that community is fully involved in the design, because the public-private partnership is there to build what is required, not determine it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0fb013b6576427daba4e0e9a70d1748\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Perhaps we want to give the Minister another go\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c84d9f121d246ffaa570f5f2f3cb230\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Raise the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259e20a24025c401a9452dcb87c06dfc7\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, the Minister has not indicated whether or not communities will ultimately have the say in whether or not they want a public-private partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235596ab217c140738185164c0617f2c2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff97af7a8e78443196f256adbdef71a6\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df74b78b28274345a2e65280284796ca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear from the Hon Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ad2142d98446259f1a23b7833c1025\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You ruled yesterday on the issue of \u201CYes\u201D and \u201CNo\u201D answers. The Standing Orders make it very clear that a \u201CYes\u201D or \u201CNo\u201D answer cannot be sought by a member. This question, given that it has been repeated twice now, effectively goes right to the heart of demanding a \u201CYes\u201D or \u201CNo\u201D answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022870d00f85c4b4f8c9f68e86aa11484c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought, before the Hon Mr Brownlee rose to his feet, that the member has now had two goes at the same question. He has not got an answer about whether the community will have the right to reject, and I accept that he has not, but he has had two goes at it. On this occasion, I think the Minister\u2014certainly in the second answer\u2014attempted to address the question. The question has been addressed. The member can use further supplementaries if he so wishes, but Mr Brownlee is quite right. Speaker\u2019s ruling 167/5, by Jonathan Hunt, clearly says\u2014and it was used yesterday\u2014that a member cannot insist on an answer that is a \u201CYes\u201D or \u201CNo\u201D answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765b7a0900304448874b159764c365c5\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6050ca473ed48dc87a47cac613976c7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just clarify that this is not a point of order relitigating a decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274e0a35976f244e588a555a74ee2db7b\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b09804d13c436584609489d3b01409\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. Then I will hear the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e7ae247bbe49e780d71b0168b162a4\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It is just a clarification from the ruling you have just made, as to whether or not the standard that you are applying is that the Minister attempt an answer or address the question. The Minister certainly attempted an answer, but it did not address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206ca2f3949ff40b7a963cd19c8ff18cd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is relitigating exactly the ruling I have given. In my opinion, the member on a\u2014[Interruption] Order! The Minister has now on two occasions attempted to address the question. My ruling, which I had given the member, which he is now questioning, is that on the second occasion, the Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d8b777c9b84e5c8db3e32573ce39d0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a7cebf3fc90447d873238edfe01af68\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I just want to clarify that the point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe8ada5fd454ba6b5dc703dfb4a404d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am going to ask you to explain your answer, and the reason is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288f28b7fa63f4b5d9d84bf16e05547b8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That leads to disorder. If the member wants to come and see me afterwards he can do so. I have ruled. If the member wants to raise a fresh point of order, I will happily hear it. But if we are going to get the situation where we are having relitigation of points of order, that in itself leads to disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e3f01fcdbfa4a7f8081354b79644a7a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Repeatedly, in Speakers\u2019 rulings, Ministers have been required to address the question. You appear to have set a new standard requiring Ministers to attempt to address the question. I am asking you whether that was deliberate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc0e364e0224555b39966e708fb02ce\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, what I am saying is that the answer must be relevant to the question. I make a call on every question that is raised in this House. I have ruled that the answer given by the Minister, although not delivering the answer that the member Mr Hipkins wanted, was certainly relevant and addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2ea0c129cac4bfd81f9a2b47a2995b4\u0022\u003EOffenders, Monitoring\u2014GPS Use for Offenders on Extended Supervision Orders, Parole, and Work Release\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002241ee524a51fa44e7abdf0c614507cb7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241ee524a51fa44e7abdf0c614507cb7c\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What recent updates has she received on the use of GPS technology to monitor offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00227940d1537c434ca7bee66cc57d9cdf2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227940d1537c434ca7bee66cc57d9cdf2f\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E GPS technology was introduced in August 2012 to provide 24-hour monitoring of high-risk offenders in the community. Since that time 146 offenders have been subject to GPS monitoring. The use of that has allowed the Department of Corrections and police to take immediate action when these offenders have gone into prohibited areas. GPS also means that these offenders know that they are under constant 24-hour watch from Department of Corrections staff, rather than just regularly reporting to their probation officer. So far, 15 offenders have been monitored going into exclusion zones. As a result, seven of them are now back in prison, with the rest facing further sanctions or due to appear in court. Without the use of GPS technology, the Department of Corrections would have been unaware that these offenders had breached their conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224874c561fd6c486b90139fc4e5245481\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What other steps is the Government taking to make further use of GPS technology to monitor offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229079d88df1334980bd53d7131223a50b\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: We have extended GPS tracking to allow a greater number of low-security prisoners to participate in the Release to Work programme, which gives them valuable work experience outside the wire ahead of their release. Sixty prisoners out of a total of 146 monitored on GPS have been on the Release to Work programme. We are also looking at ways we can extend 24-hour monitoring to offenders convicted of serious domestic violence offences, to better protect their victims. The Parole Board has imposed GPS monitoring on two of these offenders so far, and the Department of Corrections is looking at how it can increase this number further by providing comprehensive family violence risk assessments to the Parole Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271a8c4a8040942aea559195b6e626d24\u0022\u003EOil and Gas Exploration\u2014Anadarko and Risks\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1c24e6443cd45398ab262442da10925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1c24e6443cd45398ab262442da10925\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Does he stand by the Prime Minister\u2019s statement to the New Zealand petroleum industry annual conference that \u201CThis Government is very clear, we won\u2019t let cowboys operate here in New Zealand\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022232385bfb7604969b50c5a71a395bfec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022232385bfb7604969b50c5a71a395bfec\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd232889b04a405f973c2cde88c3f0b9\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government allowing the very company that was partially responsible for the world\u2019s worst ever oil spill to drill in New Zealand, and how does that match with not letting cowboys operate in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7d2c9a92c54175bb7ab778853d5343\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: The very premise of the question the member asks is wrong. The US Government did not find that Anadarko was to blame for Deepwater Horizon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd83691ed0b4b07af6a603f7eea2d18\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How is Anadarko not a cowboy when it knowingly and expressly approved BP\u2019s riskiest cost-cutting and time-saving proposals, which were a major factor in that spill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edbe088fd4b44ad58cdcd4e2273331d1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I am not responsible for Anadarko. The fact of the matter is that it was a passive shareholder. It had no involvement in the operation of the well, no personnel on board the facility, and no decision-making power as to how that operation was operated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220270203ae8854599a7dba1d6207e9505\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How is Anadarko not a cowboy when it has also been responsible for six other spills of greater than 7 tonnes, including one in 2007, when it lost well control and released 1,061 barrels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df4f28d6e1c498ba3c5c6fdaa6854be\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I would need to confirm that. My clear understanding is that it has not been responsible for any major incidents as an operator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a70fb1b7d57b494daf494afbce79295a\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister immediately make public the oil spill modelling and the oil spill response plan for Anadarko\u2019s Taranaki well, so that people get to know what is at risk before the drilling starts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d65d7e16f546a78613e67433b84ece\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I think this member has asked this question before. The position is very clear. They are not publicly available, in the sense that they are not on some website right now, but under the Official Information Act, he knows what to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf6b883745c4b46a316fa3282491fbd\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a response from Maritime New Zealand, saying that it cannot release Anadarko\u2019s oil response plan until it consults Anadarko.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227adf3c3df9e42f197db633a957d6c3b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that particular document. Is there any objection? No, there is no objection. The paper can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5d7c811b31a4f34839b3c40def3401d\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason why the Government is suppressing this information that it does not want the people of New Zealand to know the potential consequences of a spill and what it would take to clean it up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022853a74b8bd2b4864a86cd6e3825064d8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: There is no suppression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f3827abf50469eae1add8b119ccdf6\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government risking our environment and our economy by allowing Anadarko, the Texan cowboys behind the world\u2019s worst ever spill, to conduct risky deep-sea drilling in our waters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df983540046c4dd2bedcebb984098a76\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept any of what the member has said. I think that we have in this industry the highest environmental and health and safety practice operating in New Zealand today. I am very confident that our environment is secure well into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a637baea914841c1b7ece031a2bb7a78\u0022\u003EHousing, Affordable\u2014International Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022e31684e280044b8cbc3becb53c27ceda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e31684e280044b8cbc3becb53c27ceda\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What international reports has he received on how housing affordability can be improved and what lessons can New Zealand learn from these experiences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00225808b86790a142bb9ec2a3494da4fdfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225808b86790a142bb9ec2a3494da4fdfd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E This week\u2019s public report from the Australian Bureau of Statistics notes that first-home buyers in Australia have dropped to the lowest level ever. This is despite Australia having a capital gains tax and some restrictions on overseas home purchasers. The median multiplier of house price to median income from Demographia is 8.3 in Sydney as compared with 6.7 in Auckland. The median house price in Sydney is $810,000 as compared with Auckland\u2019s $582,000. And Sydney median house prices have gone up by 13 percent as compared with 10 percent in New Zealand. The lesson that has been drawn from Australia is that if we are serious about helping first-home buyers, it is cost and supply of housing that need to be addressed. That is why the Government is focused on those real issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204116991835449bbbd7c40dc4a314b2b\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received on new policy options that are being explored in Australia to help improve housing supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b077b4a3388468a81154045f98df8c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The main focus is on increasing land supply. The consensus is that too little land has been made available for housing, and state Governments are looking to fast track land supply and simplify planning processes to make housing more affordable. I also note that they have announced policies to enable the transfer of significant State housing stock from State to community housing organisations. I note that none of the state Governments in Australia facing challenges over housing affordability are proposing massive State housebuilding programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046892c71ddb436495d38aac02711ddc\u0022\u003EMike Sabin\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen from the OECD on housing markets, and what does it recommend for improving affordability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4748f61a4c49f19c5dbb85e7b9c4ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The OECD has undertaken a comprehensive study following the collapse of house price bubbles in many countries as part of the global financial crisis. The report is particularly critical of rigid land-use regulation, and notes that house price bubbles were most severe in countries with rigid land supply. That is why this Government has this year passed the housing accord and special housing areas legislation to free up land and fast track the supply of new housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278f570d94c93456a9ef6e99ac84e733a\u0022\u003EHuman Rights, Sri Lanka\u2014Support for Independent Inquiry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00222614b93a626d46b5b4e134c14f663adb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222614b93a626d46b5b4e134c14f663adb\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Does he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement with regard to his conversation with the British Prime Minister the Rt Hon David Cameron, about Sri Lanka, that: \u201CI just sort of said to him \u2018where do you think it\u2019s all going?\u2019 I mean, like us, I mean I think everybody is now really focused on what\u2019s the next steps going forward\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00227e83c167021d474bb8dcc8a4725fbb73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e83c167021d474bb8dcc8a4725fbb73\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The member is, of course, quoting the Prime Minister out of context by omitting his immediately preceding sentence. Asked whether Prime Minister Cameron had raised with him the question of an inquiry in Sri Lanka, the Prime Minister commenced his answer with \u201CNo, he didn\u2019t raise it.\u201D Quoted in context, the Prime Minister\u2019s answer is clear, unambiguous, and, of course, correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263555f68f66842cfbb755dae13121c95\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Prime Minister or the New Zealand Government ever asked by David Cameron to support his position to promote an independent inquiry into human rights abuses and war crimes in Sri Lanka, and why did the Government choose not to support it, if that was the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d0a2d0ef9f482c8f17ffbfa57ba4d9\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I was not present for the meeting that the Prime Minister held with Prime Minister Cameron, but I can make clear the Government\u2019s position on this matter. As the member will know, what happened in Sri Lanka, particularly in the period leading up to the cessation of the conflict about 4 years ago, was nothing short of a major human tragedy. It is also a fact that the United Nations Secretary-General\u2019s Panel of Experts on Sri Lanka, having investigated those matters, found very significant and serious fault on both sides. The Government believes that there should be a process to hold those responsible to account, just as it believes that there should also be a process for achieving reconciliation and also devolution in the north, where elections in September provide the opportunity to devolve power to the chief minister and his Tamil-led party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388717d291804c149c6f5aa5bd614e4d\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: In light of this answer, will the Government support an independent inquiry at the Human Rights Council meeting in March, as the UK Prime Minister, David Cameron, is proposing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ecfa3e440840a9b15275ca319814cf\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government believes that there should be accountability and an independent inquiry through some mechanism, whether it is one sponsored by the Human Rights Council or otherwise appointed. Certainly, it is a good way forward. With regard to the UK prospect of a resolution at the Human Rights Council, depending on the actual wording contained in the resolution, we may well support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd388a6fc8fd40a090d1e082c277aa98\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s comment about President Rajapaksa that \u201CDomestically he\u2019s extremely popular, and that\u2019s because people do now feel safe,\u201D or does he believe the reports of the United Nations Secretary-General and the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, who say exactly the opposite, that the Sri Lankan Government has not investigated nor stopped human rights abuses and that Tamils in the north certainly do not feel safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280d57b922f5f473da84ceed6f4133aeb\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Prime Minister was very accurately reflecting the results of the elections in Sri Lanka, which demonstrated that President Rajapaksa\u2019s Government must have been popular to have achieved such a significant election victory. It is also true to say that the elections held in September in the north demonstrate that there is a significant desire for Tamil autonomy in that province. They won 30 of the 38 seats, and the chief minister is a significant figure and a former judge in the Tamil-led party there. Both the statements that the member has quoted are therefore correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84b7e676e954db48ed338cc6b56b2ba\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Given that we have received an elephant in exchange for the human rights of the people in Sri Lanka, can we expect him to bring home a bear from Russia in exchange for the rights of gay athletes at Russia\u2019s Winter Olympics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f530d61672cc4deab2b562b82ab27d20\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The question of an elephant for Auckland Zoo is one that Auckland Zoo has been pursuing for over 2 years. If the member kept in touch with his constituency he may well have known that. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ef75aae4314145a559a669e727ae14\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member asked a question. The Minister now has every right to answer that question and he is attempting to do so, but the level of interjection coming from my left-hand side is making it very difficult for me to hear that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221099a3202e9d414699f642b90276c56a\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: As I have already indicated in an earlier answer, the Government regards the events that occurred a few years ago in Sri Lanka as nothing short of a major human tragedy. We, therefore, believe that these are matters that should be appropriately taken up with the Sri Lankan Government, that accountability should be pursued, that devolution\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022508ed7c19a04488b8f440eedade87908\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order! I will not warn a member again on my left-hand side. I have got to my feet on the second occasion now asking members to give the Minister a fair go. I cannot carry on doing that. I will be asking a member to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ab6d3634464e9fa15d4de048cf6ac5\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I will repeat. The Government regards what occurred in Sri Lanka as nothing short of a major human tragedy. We believe that those responsible should be held to account, and also that devolution should occur to benefit the people in the north of Sri Lanka. We do not believe that these matters should be trivialised in the manner that that member wishes to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd04a87f8f664e1aa9308e46c13466f1\u0022\u003EWater Supplies\u2014Fluoridation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022dad2340d5b084edfad82be5940393730\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dad2340d5b084edfad82be5940393730\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Does the Government support the fluoridation of water supplies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00225f98bbf028494766a1af2e12f3350be8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f98bbf028494766a1af2e12f3350be8\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Associate Minister of Health: Yes. There is no doubt that the science shows that there are benefits for families from fluoridation and that the levels of fluoridation in water are safe for New Zealanders. At this time the Government considers fluoridation a local community decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b05c02661f7044538232ced045beb1b2\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government considering or prepared to consider shifting the responsibility for making decisions regarding the fluoridation of local water supplies to district health boards rather than to local government; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb603d706ce44dc9be3010877b99180\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is yet to formally\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb981a3e836b458bbfcb244f4c6fdc05\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could you just clarify a matter for us? The Associate Minister to whom this question was directed is who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b52f3acea84339b64db5d6fa76972a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Associate Minister, in my advice, is the Hon Tariana Turia. Clearly on this occasion that answer has been transferred to a Minister present in the Chamber. Can I ask the member\u2014[Interruption] Order! I am going to ask the Hon Peter Dunne to repeat his question because it has been interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d415dd730404245a0c855882116ba8b\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government considering or prepared to consider transferring the responsibility for the fluoridation policy of local water supplies from local government to district health boards; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a550642c324308ad36f94146e64194\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is yet to formally consider the Health Committee report. However, it has been a long-term position of the Government that fluoridation of public water supplies is a decision for local communities to make, and that the Government\u2019s role is to make sure that local councils are supported when they decide to use fluoride, not to make the decision for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee677ce385542f285028cd6d0fd100c\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Can it be taken from the Minister\u2019s first reply that fluoridation is a priority for the Government; if that is the case, in the light of the select committee report tabled earlier this week, what is the Government doing to give effect to that priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b5a58d3f2094b23bc1d7979be347697\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is doing quite a lot to give effect to the priority that we put on fluoridation. The Ministry of Health supported the three district health boards in an unprecedented effort to fight back against the orchestrated campaign of misinformation from those who are against fluoridation. This was really the first time ever that there was a totally concerted effort by public health authorities to get that message out. We congratulate the three communities that strongly endorsed fluoridation of their community water supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224db1149f7355423ead8ffb2b0a3a31c2\u0022\u003EGame Animal Council Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022291162bdd35a401ab1503ada79815b11\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000587\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf1209b02a874fbd9559fab940ca021a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf1209b02a874fbd9559fab940ca021a\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E The Local Government and Environment Committee spent many hours investigating and discussing the Game Animal Council Bill. There has been huge interest in this topic and very active discussions since about 2005. The game animal panel hearing process led by Margaret Austin dealt with over 4,000 submissions. We too heard a significant number of submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe key to this bill is that the Game Animal Council can manage herds of special interest for the purpose of recreational hunting, but only\u2014only\u2014where this activity is compatible with the management of the public conservation land. We already have a highly successful model to imitate. This model is the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation. That foundation has for over 7 years now been managing the effects that deer have had on the Fiordland environment. It is managing them for both conservation and hunting excellence purposes. Because, as we have discussed, recreationalists often become the best conservationists, it is the hunters who have taken on the responsibility of managing and improving the environment where these animals live. The hunters are working actively and in partnership with the Department of Conservation, and they are focusing on pest control in the area. They have been doing a lot of work on predators such as stoats and rats, and they have installed and maintain over 70 kilometres of tracks right throughout this area. This really has improved the environment for flora and fauna, and particularly for some of our endangered birds and bats. They have also taken the pressure off the environment by culling non - wapiti-type deer. This is, of course, for conservation reasons, but it is also to improve the quality of the wapiti stock. Finally, just to add a little thrill to their events, they have supported a project to reintroduce the blue duck into the area, and that has been very successful and appreciated by all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESo this area that is cared for by the hunters and the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation is a shining example of better conservation outcomes and a better hunting experience. That is why we support this bill. It will encourage more New Zealanders to get out and enjoy our natural environment. It will encourage more New Zealanders to engage in conservation activity. It will help us manage our game animals\u2014that is, the tahr, the chamois, the deer, and the pigs\u2014more effectively, and it will provide for better hunting opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EOf course, the fishing community has Fish and Game, and now, after today, the hunting fraternity will have the Game Animal Council. I look forward to seeing that council up and running and adding value to both our conservation estate and the recreational hunting community. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022041dbd5c95d648e09573e49a0fce1934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022041dbd5c95d648e09573e49a0fce1934\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Labour, unfortunately, will not be supporting this piece of legislation, the Game Animal Council Bill. It really is unfortunate, because I think this was a lost opportunity. I think that before the bill went to the Local Government and Environment Committee, there was a lot of consternation around the very principle of what we were doing and the fact that it was quite different from what the advisory committee, which had been set up under the Labour Government via our agreement with the Hon Peter Dunne and United Future, had suggested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EActually, when we got to the select committee, what we found was there was an awful lot of common ground and a real desire to do something about those tensions that exist between the protection of the conservation estate, pest management, and the interests of recreational hunters. There was general agreement that in many cases those interests actually aligned, whereas people might think that they conflicted. It was a real opportunity to do something that would build on the relationships that already existed, highlight where relationships did not exist, and provide an opportunity to start building those relationships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat we found out through the select committee process and the submissions was that around the country this is already happening in some places very, very well and the Department of Conservation is working extremely well with local recreational hunting interests. Decisions have been made and relationships put in place that mean that we are getting what the select committee wants, which is a win-win for both sides. But, equally, there are other parts of the country where that relationship is very bad, where the relationships have broken down, and where the Department of Conservation and the local hunting interests are not working well together. What was clear was that it would have been perfectly possible within existing laws to actually build on both those experiences\u2014the very bad experiences and the very positive experiences\u2014and come up with something that I think most parties, if not all parties, in the House would have been able to support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ECertainly, if you read the regulatory impact statement on this piece of legislation and if you read the advice that came from both Treasury and the Department of Conservation, this was their least favoured option. This was the option that they thought would have the highest regulatory burden and the most cost. They said that stand-alone legislation was not the way to go when, under existing legislation, you could achieve exactly the same outcomes. So what the Minister of Conservation is currently already able to do under the Wild Animal Control Act is to set up committees of special interest. So we could have taken that route. But we certainly took on board the concern of the recreational hunting community\u2014that the problem with that was that as easily as a Minister could establish one of these boards, the Minister could then disestablish it. We accepted that this is something that needed to be far more permanent than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut the other option that was available\u2014I guess we would see it as the middle-ground option\u2014was that under the Wild Animal Control Act, there could have been an amendment to put this committee into place and could have given it the kinds of functions that this bill seeks to impart on the Game Animal Council, but, in doing so, not undermine the role of the Department of Conservation and the Minister of Conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI very much appreciate the lofty goal of devolution of a number of these functions from the Department of Conservation down to other groups where we can get a win-win for everyone involved, but I simply just do not think we are there yet. I think that the member who is effectively responsible for this bill, the Hon Peter Dunne, made a very correct statement in his second reading speech, which was that the recreational hunting community is not very well organised at the moment, and this bill does seek to address that. But it is a bit of a chicken and an egg thing. We are passing on and devolving an awful lot of responsibility to a sector that has yet, I think, to develop to a point where we can be confident that especially in terms of pest management\u2014and that is incredibly important for all New Zealanders, not just for those who care about that Department of Conservation estate\u2014the standards there are going to continue to be met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns, of course, that was raised by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment was around the issue of 1080 and ensuring that the Game Animal Council was not able, for example, to stop the use of 1080 where it is being used for pest control simply because it might also impact on one of the herds of national significance. So it is disappointing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI am very pleased, though, that there is a 3-year review on this bill. I think that is an important part that does allay some concern. In 3 years\u2019 time we can see where we are at and see whether this is still the appropriate vehicle to address the very real issues that are being addressed in this bill around managing those tensions between the Department of Conservation, pest management, and the rights of recreational hunters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI keep saying \u201Crecreational hunters\u201D because up until a few hours ago we were really talking only about recreational hunters. A major concern for us has been the vote that was taken in the Committee stage of this bill today to remove the word \u201Crecreational\u201D wherever it appears in the bill. That is a very big shift from what we were discussing at the select committee. It very much changes the entire flavour of what we are trying to do here. There is a difference, we believe, between the recreational hunting interests\u2014the people who go out, who have done it their whole lives, and who learnt from their grandad, from their dad, and maybe from their grandmother and their mother as well, that hunting is a real part of the culture, a real part of that community\u2014and the people who go out and make a lot of money out of shooting at animals from helicopters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EFor us that was an important distinction. We were doing something that was going to benefit that recreational hunting community, because we recognised that many of them also do it out of a love of the land, do it out of a love of just getting out there amongst nature. They have no interest beyond just enjoying what they have always done and wanting to see that when the Department of Conservation is engaging in pest management plans, it is not at the same time eradicating the species that they enjoy going out and hunting\u2014that it can get some kind of species management in there that allows both to coexist. So that is what we wanted, and those were the people we wanted to benefit from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut, unfortunately, we are now including a category of people who are benefiting from what we are doing here but who also make money off what they do and who are more the big end of town, I guess, when it comes to the hunting sector, than the people whom we believed we were primarily dealing with at the select committee. I know that we were told, in trying to explain why clause 16 was changed, that it was to be more inclusive, to extend the benefits of it beyond just recreational hunters, but that was not the mandate we were given at the select committee, and that was not the overarching framework of what we were told we were doing. What we were told we were doing was dealing with the everyday hunters who go out there and do it because they love it and it is part of their lifestyle. They are doing it because they love being out amongst nature, not because they are making money out of it or having tourists come in and do trophy hunting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo now this bill extends to all those other people. I think that that is a real shame, because everything I said before about how close I thought we were to actually getting something that everyone could get on board with is undermined. Actually, what the amendment also does is it removes any mention of recreational hunters from the legislation. Had this amendment gone to the select committee\u2014and I do not know why it was not raised at the select committee, except that I acknowledge that the select committee was about 400 years ago, but that is all right\u2014we could have discussed, for example, mentioning recreational hunters. Including recreational hunters would ensure that the interests of recreational hunters, who were the people whom we believed we were passing this legislation for, will not be lost against the bigger, more wealthy voice of other hunting interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhen we were going through this bill, officials made it quite clear to us that this bill was not being passed for the other hunting interests; it was being passed for the recreational hunters. So to come to the Committee stage and suddenly have all reference to recreational hunters removed from the bill was unexpected, to say the least, and unfortunate, I think. I am sure that other members will get up and say that it will make no difference, and it may be that in 3 years\u2019 time, when we do the review, that that is the case, but it should have gone to the select committee so we could have actually teased that out, rather than it being changed under urgency. I appreciate that there are time frames that need to be met so that we do not breach them, but then why was this bill not progressed earlier? Why was this bill not progressed earlier in the year so we did not have to do that under urgency and we did not have to have Supplementary Order Paper 395 dropped on us at the last minute, when we really do not fully appreciate exactly what it might do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo we will not be supporting this bill. That is a shame because I do think we were very close to finding something workable that everyone could get on board with. But I do congratulate the Hon Peter Dunne on the time and effort he has put into passing this piece of legislation after what must be coming up to nearly a decade now. That is a long period of time, so I do acknowledge that this is, I am sure, a very happy day for the Hon Peter Dunne. I am just sorry that we could not get on board with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00223214676ba92e448d9c69663eb4d9446e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223214676ba92e448d9c69663eb4d9446e\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member who has just resumed her seat, Moana Mackey. I want to just acknowledge at the beginning of my contribution that this debate has been, I think, on the whole a very constructive one. There have been points of disagreement, but, largely, they have been handled in a constructive way, and I acknowledge that from all members. As the member intimated, for me this is the end of a fairly long journey. It began before the 2005 election. In the 2005 confidence and supply agreement with the Labour Government, United Future secured the establishment of the game animal review panel, which was chaired by the Hon Margaret Austin and ended up recommending the establishment of the Game Animal Council. When the National Party came to power in 2008, we included in our confidence and supply agreement the provision to establish a special committee to pick up those recommendations and develop the council. In our 2011 agreement, this legislation was concluded. So to finally be at the point where the bill is about to receive its third reading is the end of a remarkably long journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EA number of people have been involved along the way, and I want to acknowledge immediately the worth of their contributions. I have already mentioned the Hon Margaret Austin, who has been steadfast. I know from a message received from her this morning that she is extremely excited that her work is finally coming to its conclusion today. I want to acknowledge the work of Garry Ottmann and the members of the Game Animal Council Establishment Committee for a job extremely well done over a long period of time. I want to acknowledge the officials, whose hearts have not always been in this bill but who have worked constructively to make sure that it was the best it could be, and the Local Government and Environment Committee for the consideration that it gave, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut there is one unsung hero of this bill whom I want to mention. His name is Hayden Cox. He was my ministerial assistant for a number of years, and he worked on this piece of legislation as a labour of love for a very long time. I know that Hayden will be an extremely happy young man today to see that his work, his dream, his perseverance, and his sheer determination have paid off in the passage of this bill. He will be joined, in that pantheon of people to be acknowledged, by Tim McCarthy and Bill O\u2019Leary of the New Zealand Deerstalkers Association, and, in an earlier time, Alec McIver, and a number of other recreational interests around New Zealand. This is very much their day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to deal with one point that dominated the Committee of the whole House\u2019s consideration of the bill, and that, I think, is largely\u2014with the greatest of respect to members opposite\u2014a red herring. That is the matter that the previous speaker was referring to about the expansion of the ambit of the council by way of Supplementary Order Paper 395, which was passed by the Committee of the whole House. Let me repeat what I said at that point: when this bill was introduced, for reason of issues related to the protection of property rights it related only to the conservation estate, and, obviously, by definition, that limited its scope to apply only to recreational hunters, as they are the major users of the conservation estate in that regard. Once the bill had passed through the select committee, there were strong representations made by a number of other groups with interests in land management, tourism, and hunting in its broader forms that they should now be brought under the ambit of this legislation, not the least reason for which was the fact that the levy mechanism placed on trophies that the bill introduces would affect them, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs the Associate Minister of Conversation at the time, I received those submissions, and I must confess to the House that I was at first a little sceptical. It did sound a little bit like johnny-come-latelys once the bill had been passed. I said to them: \u201CIf you come back to me with a document signed by all of the people who you claim support the inclusion of a wider definition, I will be prepared to take the matter forward.\u201D They did, and the Supplementary Order Paper reflects that. I do not see that as sinister. I do not see that as changing the scope of the bill. In fact, it broadens it. It makes it a much more inclusive platform. It makes the council, I think, a much more credible body. I note, and I said this during the Committee of the whole House, that Mr Ottmann has given a message this morning that the changes proposed are utterly consistent with the recommendations of the establishment committee. If one looks at the provisions of the bill regarding the membership of the council, there is a specific statement there about recreational hunting. I do not accept, although I understand why it has been made, the criticism that we heard during the Committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOne other point that has aroused some attention\u2014and if I hear the Green Party correctly, it has mainly been their point\u2014is that the hitherto overarching role of the Department of Conservation in the management in this area is being diminished by the establishment of this council, which will have its own responsibilities. I respect that we have a difference of opinion on this. I actually think that devolution is a good thing, because you will have more stakeholders involved in the decision-making process, greater commitment, and the value that they espouse\u2014of wanting to conserve a resource so that they can use the resource\u2014can be given greater effect through this proposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI am very happy today. I am very pleased to see this council come to fruition. I have great confidence in the future that lies ahead. I suspect, actually, from the tone of some of the debate opposite, that members opposite are also quietly confident that this council will be successful. It is an important day for the hunting sector in New Zealand\u2014recreational hunters, as well as other hunters. It is an important day for all of those who value our outdoor heritage, and their ability to have a say in its management and their ability to contribute to future policy developments. Congratulations to all who were involved in bringing the bill to this stage. I am very happy to let the debate proceed and for the vote to take place in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022117f4da6795848d68e799956247af05c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022117f4da6795848d68e799956247af05c\u0022\u003EEUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the third reading of the Game Animal Council Bill. When this bill was introduced, the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society described it as a political trophy awarded to Peter Dunne for his loyalty to the Government. It is certainly a very fine trophy. If it were a deer head, it would have a lot of points on the antlers. It has been a very controversial bill. There were more than 600 submissions on it, and it was opposed by the major conservation and environmental groups, conservation agencies, the New Zealand Conservation Authority, a lot of the conservation boards, regional councils, and the Auckland Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe are getting to the final stages. We in the Green Party still believe that the Game Animal Council is being established for all the wrong reasons and in the wrong way. As a stand-alone council that is promoting the interests of hunting, it is putting that recreation in a very privileged position in relation to all other users of conservation land. Trampers, mountain bikers, kayakers, and other users do not have their own special legislation that gives them special access to the Minister of Conservation and gives them Government funding and the ability to recommend that fees be set. Essentially, this bill is establishing a glorified lobby group for hunters, which is going to be funded by the Crown and by Kiwi hunters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the tragedies of the bill is that it overlooks the opportunity provided by conservation boards, which are a diverse group of iwi representatives, recreational representatives, farmers, hunters, conservationists, and others who advise the department. They provide collective advice from a range of different points of view. We heard in the Local Government and Environment Committee how boards like the Tongariro/Taup\u014D Conservation Board are working with hunters to give them more influence in the management of conservation land. Conservation boards are an integrating body. The Game Animal Council as a stand-alone one is likely to exacerbate the conflict between conservation values and hunting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe do not think the bill is needed, because it, essentially, duplicates the work of some other agencies. In the firearms and hunting safety areas it is duplicating the work of the New Zealand Deerstalkers Association and the Mountain Safety Council. We do not think it is needed, because we already have recreational hunting areas under the Wild Animal Control Act, and they cover nearly 190,000 hectares of New Zealand. We already have liaison committees, such as the tahr one, under the tahr control plan. We already have a number of successful examples, from the hunters\u2019 perspective, of where herds that they see as being nationally significant are managed on conservation land, with input from hunters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBoth Maggie Barry and Nicky Wagner talked about the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation and its work in Fiordland. Wapiti in Fiordland National Park are managed by the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation and the Department of Conservation through provisions in the Fiordland National Park Management Plan, which recognises both the interests of hunters and biodiversity values. Similarly, the white-tailed deer population on Rakiura / Stewart Island is very popular with hunters. It is managed under the provisions of the Rakiura National Park Management Plan, but in consultation with hunters. In both these areas, hunting management operates well and to the satisfaction of the hunters concerned, as many of the submitters made clear in their submissions to the select committee, so we do not need this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAs the Southland Conservation Board noted in its submission\u2014and it has obviously had experience with both wapiti management and white-tailed deer management\u2014the bill risks undermining the existing goodwill that has built up between the Department of Conservation and hunters, and it could well overwhelm these local initiatives where you have got a centralised agency like the Game Animal Council being established, and because of our concern that that will primarily promote the interests of trophy hunters and commercial guides, rather than the average recreational hunter. That is potentially likely to happen because we have got an 11-member council that has got to fund its activities, and it is going to be very keen to supplement its income that it gets from the export of trophies, so it will want to collect fees. If it is going to be collecting fees, there is nothing in the bill that requires those fees to be set at a reasonable level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut our primary reason for opposing the bill is that it cuts right across the Department of Conservation\u2019s statutory responsibilities to protect and preserve our indigenous plants and wildlife and the landscapes they inhabit. The Hon Mr Dunne was saying that that is just our concern. It was a concern that came through in a range of submissions, including from organisations like the Auckland Council. It is a real concern because of the significant powers that the bill gives to the Game Animal Council in relation to the management of herds of special interest. Even this term turns pest animals such as deer, tahr, and feral pigs\u2014problem animals\u2014into being seen as an asset. It is very unlikely that the Game Animal Council, when it is managing these herds, will want to permanently reduce their numbers, contract their range, or eradicate them. Of course, that undermines a strong commitment to the management of these species as pests, because of their browsing impacts on indigenous vegetation and because of their contribution to soil erosion on high country lands. So the council\u2019s desire to maximise hunting opportunities will cut across and conflict with the need to control and cull these browsers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is nothing in this bill about promoting and achieving better outcomes for tourism, for better pest control, for bovine TB management, or even for better results for conservation. That is why we have got this concern about the undermining of the Department of Conservation\u2019s statutory purpose. As the Auckland Council said, the likely results of the bill will be far worse for conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI was very disappointed in the Committee stage that the Government did not support Supplementary Order Paper 400 in my name to make national parks and other high status protected areas off limits to the establishment of herds of special interest, because there is a parallel provision to the one that was in the Supplementary Order Paper in the Wild Animal Control Act that prevents the establishment of recreational hunting areas in national parks. So why, if the Government believes and Mr Dunne believes that this bill would not undermine conservation values and would not undermine the protection of our indigenous biodiversity, did they not support a parallel provision that would have put national parks off limits to these herds of special interest? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMembers from the National Party have said that this bill, in establishing the Game Animal Council, replicates or is similar to the Fish and Game Council. We would point out that the management of Canada geese was taken away from Fish and Game because it was seen as having a conflict in managing Canada geese for hunting, and also because of concern that farmers had with an increase in Canada geese numbers and their browsing impacts on farmland. Fish and Game no longer manages a species where it has got that conflict of interest. Similarly, here you will have the Game Animal Council managing species that have impacts as pests, so that is an internal tension that is not good for biodiversity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe final reason we are opposing it is still those changes in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395 that take out the reference to recreational hunting as a management purpose for the herds of special interest. That, we believe, will mean that the council will be dominated by an elite group of trophy hunters, safari park operators, and commercial guides, and we will not see the traditional Kiwi sport of hunting promoted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00228e45b2bc1c43484eb7e35e8410c6c2b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e45b2bc1c43484eb7e35e8410c6c2b2\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Game Animal Council Bill. Sometimes I do wonder whether I am sitting in the same select committee, because some of the comments that have been made today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42ff45fe2e64d9e8fa58e8646048f3c\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: We do wonder too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d22bfa07b1d24d4c856fbfb714aa1424\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I am supporting you, Maggie Barry. Do not knock me\u2014do not knock me. I do wonder, having gone to Christchurch and having been in a packed room in Christchurch with interests from all over the game animal sector\u2014from recreational people to commercial people to people involved in all aspects of it\u2014whether all the members here today who have spoken actually were at that particular hearing and did hear from the submitters, because, quite frankly, this does bring together all the people who have an involvement in big-game animals in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EI looked back today, just to reference that, on the website of the establishment committee\u2014the Game Animal Council Establishment Committee. It says on there that back in 2007 a ministerial panel looked into future options for managing game animals and recommended the formation of a big-game hunting council, as it was originally intended. The establishment committee was formed, representing hunters and game animal managers. It was to have regard to the environmental effects of deer, tahr, chamois\u2014or shammy\u2014and wild pigs. It was to relate to the hunting, farming, and management of those animals, including recreational hunters, commercial hunters, farmers, and the public in general. Game animal numbers needed to be controlled, for conservation reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThat was the basic premise, back in 2007, of the ministerial panel recommending the establishment of that committee. Further, it was given terms of reference, and the main terms of reference were that the establishment committee would encourage participation in hunting and farming of deer, shammy, tahr, and wild pigs; it would coordinate hunting activities to reduce conflicts; it would establish agreed national standards for hunting activities; it would advocate for the interests of its membership to the Minister of Conservation and to the public generally; and it would advise the Minister on matters relating to the management of big-game animals in New Zealand. Those are pretty clear terms of reference for the establishment committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe establishment committee originally consisted of five representatives who represented recreational deer hunters, pig hunters, commercial deer hunters, guiding services to recreational hunters, and deer farming and safari park operators. Those were the original five. This Game Animal Council Establishment Committee then went on and spent the last 6-odd years\u2014we are now in 2013\u2014developing this through the whole process, with widespread consultation across New Zealand with all those involved and affected, including in the areas of conservation and with the Department of Conservation, environmentalists, Fish and Game New Zealand, and in all sorts of other areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAs a result, the first bill, when it was first brought to this House, had various angles on it that New Zealand First initially had some difficulties with. We were quite happy when we saw that it was going to go to a select committee and be really, really, thrashed out. And it was. I was most impressed that as a result of the select committee process we really were able to get into it, get some much better outcomes from it, address many of the concerns, particularly the concerns that were coming out of some of the environmental and conservation areas regarding this, and address the concerns of the recreational hunters in tandem with the commercial hunters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, it was very, very pleasing to be in the same room with so many of these people who were finally starting to see eye to eye with each other and to see the value and the scope that this Game Animal Council would finally have to cover the interests of all those people. As a result of that, it was recommended, of course, and agreed that the committee would end up with a membership of between nine and 11 members to ensure that there was much wider representation across all interested parties, and that it would have a chair who was capable of chairing it and who would have skills in the area of conflict of interest and be able to resolve issues and bring parties together. As a result, in this bill it does state that the chair will be required to have those skills to bring all the parties together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt does concern me that there are members in this House today who say that recreational hunting has been left out and ignored. That is not the case\u2014not the case at all. Quite clearly, the term \u201Chunting\u201D covers all aspects of hunting, whether it be recreational, whether it be commercial, whether it be guided services for recreational hunters, or whether it be the industry side of deer farming, wild deer recovery, and that sort of thing, which overlaps into our deer farming industry and the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EI believe that at the end of the day we have achieved some good legislation here. It is significantly different from the original legislation that came in the House, but is the result, I believe, of a good process that saw over 600 submissions, a good process that heard very, very good oral submissions and very good representatives of so many sectors coming to the select committee and putting their views, which were taken on board by the members of Parliament\u2014or at least taken on board by the members of Parliament who listened, but obviously not by some who did not listen. As a result of this, I think this legislation is a good piece of legislation now, and New Zealand First will be supporting it. We like the idea that it has a 3-year review period, so anything that, perhaps, has been missed, or where there could still be some fine-tuning, some tweaking, or some areas that may still be assisted with the result, within the 3 year period, we would like to see that occur. New Zealand First commends this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8f5355e1ed94816b4edd2a7f7be3bf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8f5355e1ed94816b4edd2a7f7be3bf5\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the third reading of the Game Animal Council Bill. Thanks to that member who just sat down, Andrew Williams. He makes some excellent points on this occasion, and I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with him on many matters. I too have sat in on the Local Government and Environment Committee throughout this long and protracted process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI would have to say, though, that some previous calls really dwelt on the disquiet, the lack of trust, and the dysfunctional relationships, and that is just the Opposition, although this is not a laughing matter. I guess that when it comes to looking at something like the Game Animal Council, we need to look at what it is at its core intent. The core function for the council is to reduce conflicts within the hunting sector and to raise awareness of the views of the hunting sector. The Minister of Conservation will appoint members from the public and from organisational nominations. There are a wide range of groups that will be represented on that nine and up to 11 member council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EPeople have expressed concerns\u2014including the Green member Eugenie Sage who sat down recently\u2014about conservation having been, really, not served well in this. I disagree. It is always valid to look at conservation and to ensure it has been enshrined properly, but I do not think it is justified in this case. I think conservation values will be protected because checks and balances will be put in place. As part of the herd management plans, for example, those herds of special interest will not result in adverse effects on conservation values. That is going to be monitored. Any management plans for those herds of special interest would have to have regard to the management of conservation. They would also have to include all of the existing policies, strategies, and plans made under conservation and biosecurity legislation. It is going to be reviewed every 3 years. It will be closely monitored, because these convictions are passionately held and very well thought through. So I do not think that there is anything that is present in this bill that will endanger our conservation values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EBe not afraid, this bill will deliver the right balance and protect our conservation values. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00220caa029c4c7445d28dba3bcfa65d331a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220caa029c4c7445d28dba3bcfa65d331a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to follow the member for the North Shore, Maggie Barry. I am sure that a lot of hunting goes on up there\u2014I am not sure how many things they hit, though. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOf course, Labour supported, and was part of the initiation of, the Game Animal Council Bill in 2008, when good intent was in place to bring some coordination to the issue of recreational hunting and the tension between the hunting sector and conservationists across the country. Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, there have been a number of pests introduced into this country. Some of them have ended up being partially productive. Some of them have been totally destructive. What we are dealing with here are the ones that fall in the middle. Some people see them as a great asset; others see them as a huge liability, particularly on the conservation estate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere is a philosophical divide here that has, I guess, been behind many of the submissions to the Local Government and Environment Committee. I was not on the select committee, but I have heard from and spoken to many people from both sides. Labour supports the need for greater coordination between hunters and conservationists. It is sensible. These are people who are passionate about the outdoors, and I applaud them. Whether someone goes into the outdoors to walk, to mountain bike, or to go and hunt, they are all appreciating the spectacular natural values of our country and are prepared to step in and pay their taxes in support. So we must support whatever their interests are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut it does come down to the reality\u2014it has not been said here, other than by myself\u2014that 1080 has been a big player in this whole tension. As the Department of Conservation, regional councils, and farmers have become more effective in the management of the possum population, they have spread 1080 far more systematically and accurately than they did in the early 1970s. But they have still done so, and there has been some by-kill\u2014there is no doubt about that. So hunters who have been passionate about going out and finding the odd deer, chamois, or tahr\u2014but deer in particular\u2014have felt aggrieved that their prey has been reduced by this broadcasting of poison to kill possums. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere has been a view that the hunting fraternity should have more say in that management. Conservationists, on the other hand, would be happy to see them all go, and see the indigenous forest restored to its original value\u2014actually, that is impossible because forests will evolve. So the tension between deer numbers and our indigenous forests has been at the heart of this debate, in my view. On top of that there has been a growing commercial hunting sector, which does make a lot of money. It brings a lot of export dollars into this country through people flying in, staying at high-value lodges, and spending a whole lot of money to go out and trophy hunt in our wonderful conservation estate and in the national parks, as we have seen. Managing that in an appropriate way is the objective of this whole exercise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHowever, the bill has been tinkered with. Because of MMP and the deals that have effectively been made with the Hon Peter Dunne, one sector has kind of got some momentum, and that is the commercial hunting fraternity. It has been well represented. It has done a lot of good lobbying. Some might say that it has won the day. The concern with Supplementary Order Paper 395 from the Minister of Conservation, which removes the recreational component of hunting, is that it is a backwards step and the legislation will not deliver the outcome that everyone was looking for in 2008 when the process was initiated. So I believe that we will be back in this House in the very near future making changes to this legislation because we find that there are perhaps some imbalances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn particular, I have had assurances from the hunting fraternity that they will in no way, through this new Game Animal Council, attempt to stop the utilisation of 1080 in the forest areas that are pretty hard to get to. I welcome that assurance, and I will be watching very closely for them committing to that. If we back away from the determination to knock bovine tuberculosis on the head, and to knock the possum population down to very low numbers, then we as a nation are exposed and at risk of a further big outbreak of bovine tuberculosis. No one wants that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe speaker from the Green Party, Eugenie Sage, did raise an issue that we should be mindful of, and that is the issue of the control of Canadian geese, where, effectively, a management plan did not work. The number of geese did get out of control, to the point where there was a new approach needed to get on top of it. We hope that these faults and failings do not result from the passage of this bill. Labour does have concerns. We supported the bill going to the select committee. Changes have been made, as many will say, but we are not convinced that each and every one of them has been the right change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 395, put forward at the last minute, does beg some questions. The \u201Coverriding considerations\u201D is a term in the bill that I have gone through and read, and it basically says just about anything, really. That leaves the door open for the Minister to do what he or she should like. Regulations being made by the Minister have to take on board the purposes of the Wild Animal Control Act, of course, and overriding considerations. If you read through that\u2014I am not going to read it in this House\u2014it covers everything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI am a bit concerned about handing to any Minister some open right to make, I guess, management plans for some wild animals. We have a spectacular conservation estate. We do need to protect it. We need to be mindful of a squeeze, under this Government, on the Department of Conservation that has meant it is looking for more partnerships on a commercial basis. In this particular area it may very well lead to herds of tahr or chamois that are managed for very wealthy people who might pay big fees to their hosts, and then on to the Department of Conservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf that is indeed what the Government expects, then it should be upfront about that, because that will limit the ability of ordinary New Zealanders like the member over the other side there, Mr Roy, from putting a gun on his back and going out and shooting tahr or chamois or anything that moves, in fact. If we had a few more Eric Roys, I am sure we would have far lower numbers of deer and chamois and tahr. The fact is that he spends too much time in the House here, I guess, to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I say in all seriousness that Labour would have liked to support a bill that did achieve a fine balance between recreational, commercial, and conservation interests in hunting. We accept that we have these exotic animals in our indigenous forests. They do have an impact. We need to keep the numbers low. We need to seize the opportunities for commercial exploitation where possible, but not at the expense of conservation and not at the expense of what is a reasonable expectation for New Zealand hunters to go out in the bush and to find something that they can shoot at and bring home for tea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is unfortunate that we cannot do that. I would have liked to speak in support of this piece of legislation, but the changes were not good enough and the protections were not good enough. I just hope that we do get a positive outcome for conservation and for hunting from this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002261a02a333ef1499f8b330addd5be54fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261a02a333ef1499f8b330addd5be54fc\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make the point in this third reading of the Game Animal Council Bill that hunting and conservation are not mutually exclusive. I would like to make the point that many hunters take a keen interest in maintaining and protecting the environment, and I look forward to the contribution by my colleague here, Eric Roy, who represents that very cohort of hunters in New Zealand. Hunting is a hugely popular recreational activity in New Zealand, and, as a result, it brings with it competing interests and concerns on the best way to manage recreational and guided trophy hunting interests for the hunting of big game animals. So this bill will give hunters a greater say in their sport while also providing the Minister of Conservation with a valuable stream of advice regarding the recreational and guided trophy hunting of tahr, shammy, deer, and wild pigs, and also with a keen eye on the impact on the environment. It is a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022a18f91bb84f54ba3b1508cb3cd82204a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a18f91bb84f54ba3b1508cb3cd82204a\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am just going to take the 5 minutes I have because I understand that this is a split call with the Green Party, so I have only 5 minutes. I want to recap a couple of points I have made during the course of this debate on the Game Animal Council Bill. First of all, I want to respond to Eric Roy\u2019s contribution earlier in the debate in the Committee stage, which I thought was a very good contribution. In fact, he gave a much more competent set of answers to the questions I had raised earlier than the Hon Peter Dunne was able to give. One of the things that did puzzle me in Eric Roy\u2019s contribution was his talk about expiry dates and dates that made this a bill, of necessity, to be brought back to this House at this point in urgency. One of the points that he made was to do with commercial contracts that were going to be renewed in January of next year, as I understand it. I listened to that very carefully, because I do not know how long those commercial contracts last, whether they are a season or a year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e246ddea4b274f0fb7cf4c13ab8c6dc2\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Selling safaris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1cc9aa36ef4412a937f2e83fd2426b\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014oh, OK, thank you\u2014and whether or not the same condition could have applied last January or the January before. Thank you, Mr Roy. For the benefit of those who cannot see him, he is confirming that that is not in fact the case. So that still remains a good point. However, I do want to go back to one of the points I made that was about the need for urgency. I do think that there is more politics than practicality about the urgency of this bill, the Game Animal Council Bill. We began the work in 2008. We would not probably\u2014I do not think; who knows\u2014have arrived at the same solution that this Government has. What we have in this Game Animal Council Bill is the maximum impact that can be applied to this situation. In other words, it gets a legislative cover of its own. It gets a bill of its own. That is going to cost money. Setting up the council as an independent statutory body is going to cost money. That did not need to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESecondly, it is going to exacerbate the tensions that exist between hunting groups and also between those groups and the Department of Conservation. Everybody needs to be working together on this issue, and this is not going to help. This seems to me like a typical Nick Smith approach. It is the absolute bull-at-a-gate approach that gets the maximum nuclear option on the table. Thank goodness we do not have nuclear power or nuclear arms in this country. Thank goodness the Minister of Conservation, the Hon Nick Smith, is not in charge of them. This is a kind of excessive response to the things that were needed. It could have been done by amending the Wild Animal Control Act. The Minister could simply have put an advisory committee into that legislation, which would have required a legislative change but not a whole bill of its own and not a Game Animal Council of its own, with its own statutory authority and all of the complications and all of the expense that that entails. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI think this is an unnecessary response, and it is for that reason that the Labour Party is not going to support this bill. It could have been done differently. It could have been done more effectively. It could have been done in a way that enhances the relationships in this sector and that does not exacerbate the tensions. That is an opportunity lost. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u00223fc94371a51949798a78a8e29eea833f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fc94371a51949798a78a8e29eea833f\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E In my second reading speech on this bill, the Game Animal Council Bill, I reflected on my time, over a couple of terms, on the West Coast Tai Poutini Conservation Board. I want to reflect some more on that, because I well remember a briefing given to the New Zealand Conservation Authority about the drivers for the dispersion of deer in New Zealand. It turns out that the main way in which deer move from place to place in New Zealand is that they are deliberately introduced into new areas. What that means, actually, in relation to this bill is that there is a fundamental conflict of interests between those who see animals like deer as assets to be managed and those who see them as pests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EBluntly, the question facing New Zealand is: do we want to see more of these animals or do we want to see fewer of them? We have a great example from the so-called tahr control plan, where numbers, which in the early 1980s were around 3,000 tahr, have been, in fact, managed up, as the interest of hunters has been more reflected, to around 10,000 now. So one of the major risks of this bill, and one of the major risks of the confusion that it introduces about the responsibility for the management of particular areas of land, and the conflict between the objectives of the Game Animal Council and the Department of Conservation, is that we will see an expansion of the feral range of some of these pest animals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIt is possible to strike a balance, I am sure. I am not a hunter but I am a pretty regular back country user. I am a tramper. I am a mountain biker. I often talk to hunters in huts and we find we have a lot in common. These are people who are also passionate about back country recreation, and passionate about our natural heritage. But, fundamentally, this is not now a bill about them. It is a bill about and for the big-money trophy hunters. That is a very, very small and specific part of the hunting sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003ETo make it worse, this Game Animal Council is going to be effectively competing for control of some of our conservation estate with the department, which has been depleted in money and depleted in capacity, and this council even now is going to be funded from Vote Conservation, weakening the department even further. So that balance that could have been struck has not been struck by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EToday we have heard from the Hon Peter Dunne that he would be very surprised if the Game Animal Council sought to undermine 1080 use for pest control in the conservation estate. Damien O\u2019Connor has told us that Garry Ottmann has told him no; he has given assurances that they will not do this. Well, please forgive my cynicism. I believe that the Game Animal Council will seek to undermine 1080 use for pest control in our back country. I believe it will do that because it is in its interest to do so, and that will be a very clear example of that conflict of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that successive Governments, in fact, have tried to avoid. It has come to the House today and is passing through its remaining stages under urgency because of the Government\u2019s debt to Peter Dunne. It is a bad bill for conservation. It is a bad bill for our back country. It is actually a bad bill even for our recreational hunters\u2014the everyday Kiwi recreational hunter. That is why it has been opposed by all of the Government departments that have been asked to comment on it and is also universally condemned by conservation organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EEven those organisations like the Deerstalkers Association, which has been calling for more say for many, many years, are going to find that this Game Animal Council is not for them at all. The Game Animal Council is no longer, under the amendments agreed to by the House today, even required to consult with the Deerstalkers Association. It is not a bill for that association. It is a bill for just that tiny part\u2014the big-money, trophy-hunting part\u2014which is essentially part of a commercial industry. It is a bad bill and one that we will oppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c93f26a29b01413fb6e4d5d20b2d9032\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c93f26a29b01413fb6e4d5d20b2d9032\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E It is a rare thing for me take a call. I thought I might make my second maiden speech of the day on this particular bill, the Game Animal Council Bill, and sum up the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThis bill is really not about whether it was appropriate that between about 1840 and the First World War, a whole lot of game animals were released into New Zealand. I guess that in a way it is saying that they are here and they are part of the fabric of New Zealand, in the same way as other releases, like ryegrass, pine trees, Friesian cows, and racehorses, were all introduced into New Zealand. They are part of the fabric of New Zealand. What this bill does actually do is seek participation of stakeholders in decision making. Where anything that has been introduced into New Zealand is in the wrong place, or there is too much of it, it needs to be controlled. The bill brings these stakeholders into a position of that control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThis bill does not override conservation or environmental principles. It simply brings the stakeholder into the discussions about the best way that they can be made. One of the things about being chronologically challenged is that one sees arguments repeated several times. If one looks at stakeholder participation in something like the fishing industry\u2019s quota management, it was going to be the end of the world, and the sky was going to fall in. What has happened is that we have a much more successful and better programme for managing our fish stocks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThis bill is actually a sensible bill. It acknowledges that 137,000-odd New Zealanders participate in hunting, and it gives them a voice so that we can get the right outcomes. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002207688c0593e74c19be835ee1dc476291\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Game Animal Council Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c17da4fa87d49098bdfa20f6704c1a7\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9bbbeb4a50e43ea96e87bc62c81ace6\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022a13085c9b80f4f4cb4a50eebc1b2ad47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a13085c9b80f4f4cb4a50eebc1b2ad47\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I move, That the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I would like to thank the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for its consideration of this bill. N\u014D reira, e te Komiti M\u0101ori n\u0101 koutou i whakarite t\u0113nei k\u014Drero m\u014D te pire nei, i t\u0101tari, \u0101, i whakatakoto kia w\u0101nangahia e te whakapiringa tangata o t\u0113nei Whare, hoi an\u014D, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[So to you the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, which considered this discourse about this bill, deliberated it, and recommended that members of this House debate it, acknowledgments to us collectively.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee has considered changes proposed in the bill and has recommended that it be passed with a small number of amendments. The amendments seek to strengthen the Crown-M\u0101ori relationship by softening the tone of some of the words in provisions relating to spectrum management and future reviews of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Act 2003. The committee has also expressed its concern about the status of some of the constituent groups that make up Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, the M\u0101ori Television Electoral College. I will update the House on the latest changes to Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho later in this speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Act 2003 established the M\u0101ori Television Service. It also specified that a review of the operation of the effectiveness of the Act be undertaken in 2008-09, with a report to Parliament and recommendations for any amendments to the foundation legislation. This bill is a result of that review. This bill does not propose major changes to the principal legislation. The changes are fine-tuning in nature, so that the M\u0101ori Television Service is well positioned for the digital switch-over and can continue its strong focus on promoting our language and our culture. Digital switch-over is scheduled for completion in December 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to make minor changes to the function of M\u0101ori Television Service to strengthen its focus on M\u0101ori language and culture, to update arrangements for spectrum management and the contents of M\u0101ori Television Service accountability documents, to address arrangements for borrowing and investments by M\u0101ori Television Service, and to update arrangements for the timeliness of future reviews and other miscellaneous matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about comments in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee report about the composition of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. The committee has noted its concern about the current composition of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. At the time this bill was being considered by the committee a number of the member organisations of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho were either no longer active or not registered as an incorporated society. The committee rightly notes that this was an untenable situation for Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho and could open it to criticism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EOn 26 August 2013 I was advised by Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho that it had accepted the withdrawal of the National M\u0101ori Congress and Kawea Te Rongo from Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. Pursuant to section 14 of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Act, I am progressing an order in council to confirm the removal of these organisations from Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. I can advise that Ng\u0101 Kaiwhakap\u016Bmau i te Reo has also been re-registered as an incorporated society. These recent actions address the concerns expressed by the committee in its report. I am advised by my officials that a letter has since been sent to the chair of the committee explaining these recent developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWith the withdrawal of the National M\u0101ori Congress from Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, I would like to give thanks to the former chair, Mr T\u016Bwhakairiora Williams. N\u014D reira, e T\u016B, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, i \u0101rahi ake i te waka nei, a Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. N\u0101hau te karanga kia hoe tahi, \u0101, kia haere whakamua t\u0113nei waka. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[So congratulations to you T\u016B, who escorted this vessel, Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, and made the call to paddle in unison so that this vessel moves forward.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI acknowledge also the new chair, Mr Willie Jackson, who I am sure will continue the committed work of his predecessor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI indicated in the first reading speech for the bill that I intend to undertake further work to review the composition of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, and that this work will be coordinated with relevant work streams in Vote M\u0101ori Affairs. If there are further changes to the membership of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, I will advise the House at the appropriate time. A Supplementary Order Paper for the Committee of the whole House has been prepared. It seeks to update the commencement date of this bill. This is a minor, technical, but necessary, amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I am pleased with the progress of this bill. The select committee process has not seen the requirement for significant changes to be made to the bill. I am heartened by this, as it suggests that those with interests in this bill are satisfied with the detail of this piece of legislation. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8a4c99ea1134f81865f0a2d6207b0fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8a4c99ea1134f81865f0a2d6207b0fb\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101ori Television is New Zealand\u2019s indigenous broadcaster. It provides a wide range of local and international programmes for audiences across our country and also online, and it is internationally recognised. M\u0101ori language is at the heart of M\u0101ori culture and New Zealand\u2019s unique cultural identity, and the M\u0101ori Television Service\u2019s vision for M\u0101ori language to be valued is that it is to be valued, embraced, and spoken by all. M\u0101ori Television was launched in 2004. It is almost 10 years old\u2014and I think that that is a really important point, first up, to acknowledge in this House today\u2014and in those 10 years it has largely achieved its objectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI want to pay particular tribute here today to my colleague the late Parekura Horomia for his courage and determination in establishing M\u0101ori Television. It could be described as a taonga, so today I put it to you that we should keep it that way. I would also like to acknowledge the contribution of Jim Mather as the outgoing Chief Executive of M\u0101ori Television, who through recent years has steered New Zealand\u2019s only publicly funded television station to a place of great value in New Zealand\u2019s broadcasting environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIn contrast, though, the appointment process of a new chief executive is currently under public scrutiny\u2014high public scrutiny\u2014and is certainly under a cloud due to the highly questionable, and certainly botched, process under the auspices of its current chair, and former National Party MP, Georgina te Heuheu. This process, which reeks of cronyism and dodgy practice, resulted in a highly regarded and experienced board member, Ian Taylor, resigning from the board over the process used, well before questions were asked in this House. Government Ministers have subsequently ducked for cover because they know that it is a bad look. The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who is the Minister in charge of this M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill, should recall that M\u0101ori Television is in the good place that it is in today because of the utmost care and transparency that surrounded its appointments and mandate after some mistakes were made in key appointments at its beginnings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EA publicly funded media organisation should be scrupulously independent from Government Ministers and MPs, past and present. Neither the shareholding Minister nor M\u0101ori Television will make public the detailed reasons why Ian Taylor left the board, but when that information comes to light, as it surely will, then the role played by the board chair will be exposed, and we will certainly have more to say on this matter. Her role will be exposed and her position may well be untenable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill appears on the face of it to be quite straightforward, but it certainly is not. Labour is supporting this bill, but I want to explain to the House some of the complex issues surrounding it and the questions that remain. It does seek to make some minor changes to the functions of M\u0101ori Television to strengthen its focus on the language and the culture, but, importantly, it allows for the current analog spectrum that M\u0101ori Television runs on to be switched to digital, which frees up more spectrum for up to possibly eight digital services. This is important, and this is why we are debating this bill under urgency, because that has to happen by the beginning of December\u2014by 1 December. What is the date today\u2014what is the date today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236a0c96cd244aa9b13a99463b4227e4\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: The 20th.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e3247af6b3f4cf095dce82f1b0ba0e1\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: It is 20 November. That is pretty close, so it actually has to happen. That is why we are debating this bill under urgency today, and I think we should all acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis bill also requires the Crown to transfer the management rights to Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho over that spectrum for the establishment of a digital terrestrial television network over a 20-year period. As the Minister has acknowledged, there certainly was concern raised in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee about the membership and governance of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, and I put it to you that without those questions being asked, that situation would never have come to light and there would have been potential mismanagement by an organisation that has been revealed to contain organisations within it that do not even exist any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EEven the commentary on this bill, which was agreed to by everyone on the committee, says: \u201CWe consider that the current situation exposes Te P\u016Btahi Paoho to criticism, as some of the constituent groups appear to be defunct. We recommend that this issue be addressed with some urgency,\u201D\u2014which the Minister has acknowledged is being undertaken, but\u2014\u201C\u2026 We were also assured by the relevant officials that this was being addressed. We [noted] that the relationship between the Crown, Minister, and Te P\u016Btahi Paoho needs to be clarified, which would be [we hoped] achieved by the amendments we recommend [in this bill].\u201D This could be described as a dog\u2019s breakfast of a management situation that we are putting this newly converted spectrum into, and this is something that this side of the House remains concerned about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt raises questions around whether the Government has its house in order in passing a bill that transfers the management of valuable spectrum to an organisation that is clearly not properly constituted or properly functioning. In the Committee stage of this bill I would like the Minister to answer more questions on that matter and on what is intended to be done about it, because it also raises questions about what this spectrum may be used for down the track and who will ultimately make decisions on its use. I do have three questions that I would like to put on the record today around that, and they are: will any revenue from the potential sale or lease of surplus frequency be returned to M\u0101ori Television? If that was to occur, will any surplus\u2014i.e., that not required by M\u0101ori Television\u2014have to be offered back to the Crown first, or to Kordia; if so, how would its value be determined and why? And this is an important one: why does M\u0101ori Television itself not control the full frequency? I ask why this organisation, which is about to turn 10 years old, does not have control over that frequency, which it was set up to have. It does have the pride of place in our country and should be given the full value that it is accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis brings into question the wider question of the spectrum for public use. M\u0101ori Television is our only publicly funded TV station. It is not a public broadcaster in the real sense of the term. It has a particular mandate. We no longer have a public television broadcaster in this country since this Government axed TVNZ 7. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EUntil very recently we had another problem, because we had no broadcasting spectrum that was owned by the Crown\u2014and will not have until members on this side of the House get into Government and decide to reintroduce public television in New Zealand. But there was not any spectrum. Interestingly, just weeks ago, on 23 October, we had an announcement from Sky television that it was handing back to the Crown four multiplexes, or groups, of analog spectrum, which is the equivalent of 30 to 35 national TV channels. Sky has been sitting on this unused spectrum for years. It had to make a decision by the beginning of December to either convert it to digital or hand it back, which raises questions\u2014raises many questions\u2014around this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I have just a couple of things to say and two observations. The first is to say thanks to Sky. Thanks for returning that spectrum. Secondly, those frequencies should remain with the Crown. But the questions are: when was the Government advised, formally or informally, that Sky was handing this back, and what was the relationship between this, on the face of it, magnanimous decision to hand it back with no demand for payment and the wet bus ticket decision of the Commerce Commission just 1 week before\u2014while Sky\u2019s contracts with the internet service providers reduced competition and probably breached the Commerce Act\u2014that it was not going to do anything about it? Why did Sky wait until the last possible minute to hand back this spectrum? This raises many questions about the way the Government manages spectrum, what that spectrum will be used for, and whether that spectrum will be sold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002221566c0b9e7c4cdab5e93507163bece2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221566c0b9e7c4cdab5e93507163bece2\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. I was going to give a very, very lovely Tau speech. I was going to talk about M\u0101ori TV and even congratulate the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on a job well done\u2014on a job, in fact, where the questions that were raised by members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee have turned out to make some changes to what is the M\u0101ori Television Service and what is the M\u0101ori Television Electoral College. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI got a tweet this afternoon from none other than Clare Curran, saying that if it was not for her, none of the hard questions would have been asked. I mean, for goodness\u2019 sake! It is 2013 and this\u2014I do not use these words often\u2014P\u0101keh\u0101 lady from Dunedin comes to our select committee. She is not a member of our select committee, but she comes to our select committee. She does not think any of the natives on that select committee or the other P\u0101keh\u0101 people on that committee can ask any hard questions. What she is out there saying and tweeting is: \u201CThey couldn\u2019t do their job. I\u2019m Clare Curran. I\u2019ve come in on my white horse\u201D\u2014I do not know whether it was a white horse or not; actually, I just made that part up\u2014\u201Cand I\u2019m the one who\u2019s asking the correct questions.\u201D But she fails to realise that questions were actually asked by the late Parekura Horomia way before she even came to our select committee, questions were asked by Shane Jones, and questions were asked by all of the committee members, including the Green Party and including\u2014well, I was going to say New Zealand First but he is not a member of New Zealand First any more, and I am not talking about myself. Questions were asked by those members of the committee. And I tell you what. It was through those questions that were asked by all of the committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d960448f15054a548744a097466fdd8b\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how about talking about the issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262505580d1974d48813e448182eee3cd\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, be quiet. Be quiet. You had your turn. You had your turn. The questions that were asked were asked by all of the committee, and, in fact, it was through those questions that Mr T\u016Bwhakairiora Williams actually stood down from being the chair of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. It was because of those questions that we asked that we have Willie Jackson, who is the chair now of the new organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94e06effbd541569571aaead14220bc\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: For now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249677cff5891421aa22de92daa1e344a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, for now\u2014well, for whenever. It does not matter. The fact of the matter is that we did our job. We knew what we were doing. And it was not Ms Clare Curran riding into our select committee trying to help us. You want to read the tweet. You want to read the tweet. I tell you, it smacks of that old colonial European thing that the old natives cannot do the job by themselves. And I tell you what. Guess what? We have done the job. I commend this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill, to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002204c0473e4065425f9cfc53b30f6a8bdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204c0473e4065425f9cfc53b30f6a8bdf\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Taloha ni and t\u0113n\u0101 koe to you, Mr Assistant Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak to the second reading of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. I follow the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, Tau Henare, who is obviously feeling a bit needy today. He wants to make sure that his select committee and the work that was done on this bill during the select committee process was good and thorough and that it asked the right questions. I say to that member, well done to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for making sure that this piece of legislation has gone through. But, as you asked questions, we are entitled to ask questions as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere are a number of questions that my colleague Clare Curran has raised about the analog spectrum that is about to become digital spectrum, about the ownership and where that lies, and about what profit and what moneys will come of that. They are very pertinent questions because, basically, that spectrum is being taken off M\u0101ori Television and being put in another entity, and to what end? As Clare Curran says, that one analog spectrum can create up to eight or 10 digital television channels. The ability for M\u0101ori Television to hold on to those and use those in the future could have allowed for huge revenue-gathering by the M\u0101ori Television Service. To sell those off or to lease those off to create more revenue, to make sure that its goal of making sure that the Reo, their language, and their culture are enhanced through the M\u0101ori Television Service, could have been enhanced by having the rights to lease that spectrum. But in this case it is being put into another entity at arm\u2019s length from the M\u0101ori Television Service, and we are not quite sure what that means for it. So I think they are absolutely valid questions that Clare Curran has put forward, which were obviously criticised by Tau Henare. He can do that; that is his entitlement. But they are still absolutely valid questions being put by this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI would like to come back to this notion of questions, because we have asked some questions around the appropriateness of the process around the appointment of a new chief executive at M\u0101ori Television. Just like the media have freedom to ask questions, we too have the freedom to ask questions in this House, and we have serious concerns about the process and the fairness in the process around the appointment of a new chief executive. There has been some criticism from the M\u0101ori Party and some others in New Zealand about the right of this party to ask questions. I would say to those people who criticise us for asking those questions: bad luck. We are the Opposition and it is absolutely our right. If we think there is an issue to bring to this House, then we will ask questions. There is $36 million of taxpayer funding appropriated to M\u0101ori Television, and we have to be absolutely clear that the person who is running that organisation is above board, not just because of the money but because of the importance\u2014and I think Clare Curran used the word \u201Ctaonga\u201D\u2014the absolute importance, of this M\u0101ori Television Service to the indigenous culture of New Zealand. We will absolutely ask those questions to make sure that that person is the right person for the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EClare Curran also set the scene of the importance of M\u0101ori Television not just for M\u0101ori but also for non-M\u0101ori. I understand the vision of M\u0101ori Television. It is to make sure that the M\u0101ori language and culture is strong and that they have a voice and a face for the culture here in New Zealand so that they can influence, celebrate, educate, and communicate with their people to expand the use of their language and to make sure that things that are very important to that culture are viewed around the country. I think many people would argue at the moment that M\u0101ori Television has become the default State broadcaster in New Zealand, and I would have to agree with them to quite a large extent, because if you have a look at some of the programming that it is running, especially on special occasions\u2014I can think of its huge Anzac Day coverage that it runs now\u2014and, of course, a lot of sports that it is covering now, it is certainly the default State broadcaster here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Television has also come under fire for what I would call some hard-hitting journalism recently. There was some criticism in this House about that type of journalism. But I would ask that this House and those parties actually think about what they are saying, because hard-hitting journalism\u2014the likes of what we have seen on Native Affairs recently\u2014absolutely can respect the tikanga of the M\u0101ori culture but also hold the values of journalism and good journalism about the way that they do things. I certainly think that what we have seen from Native Affairs and the news department of the M\u0101ori Television Service is absolutely top standard, and it is asking the right questions that need to be asked. If we do not like the way that the media are operating, we can take some action against that. We have the right to complain, but as a rule it is their job to hold us to account and to hold public office-holders to account. I think that they have done that very, very well in the last month or two. We certainly know that the journalists from M\u0101ori Television are no soft touch. It may not suit everyone in this House, but that is the reality that we have of living in a free democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo I think that M\u0101ori Television certainly ticks most of the boxes for what you can expect from a State-funded broadcaster. In fact, in its statement of intent, which the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who took the first call, has mentioned today, it says that one of the major outcomes that it wants over the next 3 years is to develop an independent M\u0101ori Television broadcaster that is relevant, effective, and widely accessible. I certainly think that it is doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe questions of who runs it and who the chief executive is are very important because that person needs to be fiercely independent and, very importantly, I think, beyond political interference. I think that the situation we have got here at the moment\u2014and it is yet to be fully proved, but I think it will be in time\u2014is that it seems that the process in appointing a chief executive at M\u0101ori Television and its independence and being beyond political interference is certainly under threat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere are some serious responsibilities under this bill that the M\u0101ori Television Service has to achieve. If I can just take this opportunity to read new section 8, \u201CFunctions of service\u201D\u2014because section 8 is being replaced\u2014in clause 7 of this bill: \u201CThe principal function of the Service is to contribute to the protection and promotion of te reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga through the provision, in te reo M\u0101ori and English, of a high-quality, cost-effective television service that informs, educates, and entertains viewers, and enriches New Zealand\u2019s society, culture, and heritage.\u201D All of those things\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c74e11e929d24472b25e9b391e3d8c7a\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: Different from TVNZ.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f4cca22b0c46c7ab14b80b50add1ea\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. All of these things are very, very important. So we have to have someone in that role who ticks a hell of a lot of boxes because they have to have a unique set of skills. They have to understand all things M\u0101ori, whether it be the Reo, whether it be the culture, or whether it be the changing nature of the M\u0101ori population in New Zealand, to make sure that the coverage that they put in their programming suits that audience. Obviously they also have to understand broadcasting, have an eye on fast-changing technology, they have got to grow the use of the language, and, importantly, they have to be in charge of, as I have mentioned, roughly $36 million of taxpayer funding all up that is given to them each year. So all of those boxes have to be ticked very well, and to not do that, I think, is doing a great injustice to the M\u0101ori Television Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo we do have concerns about one of the people who was shortlisted for the chief executive job. The sources whom we have spoken to question the ability of that person to tick all those boxes I mentioned, and particularly around two of those boxes, which are independence and the ability of them to\u2014I guess when you are looking at new section 8\u2014cost-effectively run a television service. So they have to have very good financial skills and be cost-effective\u2014so they have to have very good financial skills. So we do have some concerns around Paora Maxwell because we understand that he is a very close personal friend of the chair of the M\u0101ori Television Service, who is the former National Minister Georgina te Heuheu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn the time line that the M\u0101ori Television Service gave in an Official Information Act request to the press gallery about the appointment process, I think it said\u2014and I am just going to try and hunt this down\u2014that on 16 July, Georgina te Heuheu put her hand up and said: \u201CI have got a conflict of interest because someone on this list I know very well and is a good personal friend of mine.\u201D Nowhere in any of the documents can I find anything to stack that up. So when on 16 July was that done? Maybe the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs can help us there. I can find something from about 6 weeks later. But according to the M\u0101ori Television Service, on 16 July, Georgina te Heuheu said: \u201CI have a personal relationship with this person. I am putting my hand up.\u201D At least she did it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EBut we have also got problems with the previous employment of Mr Maxwell at Television New Zealand (TVNZ). Mr Maxwell can clear that up if he just says why he left. This can be easily concluded. Either TVNZ or Mr Maxwell can clear up why he left TVNZ.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd1da734c45c42f4a3501209d0a5cf3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd1da734c45c42f4a3501209d0a5cf3e\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I do not think I am going to take all the time that I have available for this call. We are very supportive of this legislation, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. We are very pleased that the review has been completed and that the legislation came before the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Green Party, of course, was one of only two parties that voted in favour of the M\u0101ori Television legislation in 2003 that led to M\u0101ori Television being established. It was a very proud moment for us and for me. I was a brand new MP. I had been in Parliament for less than a year, and I remember negotiating\u2014I cannot say I was particularly good at it\u2014with Parekura Horomia, who was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs at the time, over how the service would be expanded and shared, particularly amongst marae. There were a great deal of issues. It was momentous that the bill did pass, but I would just note that only two political parties voted for it: us and Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4beb999d6114d16a7c71f9ad38245e9\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: So the National Party didn\u2019t support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268fe269e6f7a4c0eb3ced10c7f78ef57\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party did not support the legislation at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe legislation is now a little bit over 10 years old. It is, as has been said previously, unusual in that it is a creature of statute. The legislative provisions that established M\u0101ori Television will need to be reviewed on a regular basis and changes will need to be made according to changing times and technology, and that is what has happened here. So it is quite reasonable for this legislation to have come before us and for the issues to be discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI was pleased to be a member of the select committee that considered it. I appreciate everybody\u2019s contributions. Clare Curran made a good contribution and other members of the select committee made a great contribution. But I do understand where Tau Henare was coming from with his contribution this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that have been raised around M\u0101ori Television and in the context of this bill is the one that was just raised by Kris Faafoi. I appreciate his very clear discussion and description of those issues, but let us not think that this current issue with the appointment of the chief executive, which is making a little bit of news, is the first time that there have been any issues with the M\u0101ori Television Service. In 10 years there have been some teething problems and there have been issues raised in the public realm. Some of them have been more contentious than others, under the Labour Government and under the National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is an organisation that is comparatively young, but has no doubt made an enormous contribution to New Zealand\u2019s broadcasting scene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e4c0c2202d54f7d9b95dd844e1648ae\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Much better than ATN.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a41ab5cc8243af8c4d47db2a9c33f4\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Mallard. It is widely regarded as the best State television broadcaster in the country. I firmly believe that that is the case, as do the Greens, because it is 100 percent focused on the community that it serves. And having such a strong kaupapa for the people that it serves and the broad community that it serves, it is able to deliver the kind of broadcasting that we would expect as a well-educated citizenry who are looking for stories and programmes that are focused on ourselves, on our people, on our culture, on the interconnection between P\u0101keh\u0101 and M\u0101ori culture, and on news and current affairs, of course, which most politicians are mostly interested in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EActually, M\u0101ori Television does a lot more than just news and current affairs. M\u0101ori Television provides a huge range of programmes that reflect M\u0101ori lives\u2014real M\u0101ori lives\u2014being played out. It is the kind of stuff you never see on any other television station in this country. It is all the good stories that you never see anywhere on television in this country, and all of the self-made programmes where wh\u0101nau are out there talking about themselves, showing our wh\u0101nau, our kids, our kuia and kaum\u0101tua, and all of our nannies and our koros\u2014showing us the way that M\u0101ori really live. It is just wh\u0101nau\u2014positive, constructive, doing amazing things, and taking great care of ourselves, our families, and our communities. Again, they are stories that you simply do not see on mainstream television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ESo to that extent I want to say to the M\u0101ori Television Service that you have provided a fantastic and incredibly valuable service to our country by the work that you do. Despite any legislative change we might need to make, or regulatory change we might need to make\u2014any of the issues that we bring as politicians to the debate\u2014we have an obligation to make sure that this service is strengthened and at every turn is able to better meet the needs of the M\u0101ori community, and communicate to the whole of the New Zealand community about its health and wellness, and all the amazing contributions that the M\u0101ori community makes to our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI would note that, as in the example of news and current affairs, a large bulk of the viewership of M\u0101ori Television is P\u0101keh\u0101 because P\u0101keh\u0101 are wanting to hear and see the stories by M\u0101ori of M\u0101ori, as well. This is not just directed at M\u0101ori; this is about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022530ce0c4-c977-40cb-90fb-754f54931ff1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f693f4561f4052856461613895e278\u0022\u003ETracey Martin\u003C/span\u003E: Better programming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291122ea461484f56858c5be134d8b949\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes\u2014genuine programmes about our own communities where P\u0101keh\u0101 are wanting to understand more. They are wanting to understand the Reo and all the different layers and levels of Reo that are provided. They are wanting to see their own wh\u0101nau. I do not think we probably have a single P\u0101keh\u0101 wh\u0101nau in this country that does not have a M\u0101ori grandchild or a M\u0101ori grandparent. We are very integrated, but that is not often reflected on any television anywhere, except for the M\u0101ori Television Service. It is a service that provides excellent communication to M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 alike, and that it why it has such strong support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ESo for all that there may be some changes needed\u2014and I appreciate that the Minister has given the House an update on Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho and its membership; I think that is great. Issues were raised at the select committee, and we have now had some changes as a result. There are still some ongoing controversial issues. They will, no doubt, be resolved in time. None of that should implicate or affect or in any way undervalue the fantastic service that M\u0101ori Television is providing to our country, helping to bind M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 communities together and showing the true health and wellness of M\u0101ori communities and P\u0101keh\u0101 communities working together in Aotearoa New Zealand. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00221dc8f04264054c07b534c74fc7f8c2ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dc8f04264054c07b534c74fc7f8c2ba\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, te Kaihaut\u016B. I rise to support the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. This bill is all about changing the functions of the M\u0101ori Television Service to better protect M\u0101ori language and to allow the service to establish a free-to-air digital terrestrial TV network. These changes will support M\u0101ori Television to become a world-class indigenous broadcaster, and it is well on the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe awareness and the use of M\u0101ori language, Te Reo, by New Zealanders has increased dramatically over the last 25 years\u2014the last 25 years since Te Reo became an official language with the Maori Language Act in 1987. We can be proud of M\u0101ori media for supporting and growing our appreciation of Te Reo. Coincidentally, it is 25 years since the establishment of M\u0101ori radio and broadcasting\u201425 years of presenting Te Reo on air for all New Zealanders. We now have 27 iwi radio stations broadcasting on 68 radio frequencies, promoting M\u0101ori language and culture. Now all New Zealanders have the opportunity to listen and to watch regularly, to enjoy, and to learn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EWe can all see the effects of regular Te Reo broadcasts. New Zealanders in all walks of life, of all ethnic backgrounds, now know more about M\u0101ori culture and now use many M\u0101ori words on an everyday basis. These days they mostly pronounce them correctly, and they have an appetite to learn more. I really look forward to hearing M\u0101ori spoken on a more regular basis in every location across the country and by people in all walks of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis morning something special happened, and this indicates that this could be very possible. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee sat this morning between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. Just as we were starting, somebody came into the room by mistake. I love the fact that everyone in the room acknowledged that person, everyone in the room acknowledged them cheerfully, and everyone in the room acknowledged them in M\u0101ori. It was a chorus of various M\u0101ori greetings from all of us, regardless of ethnicity, and it was very special, it was very satisfying, and it was very appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESo I commend this bill to the House. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u0022765215161fac4241ad73622cf0b40a77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022765215161fac4241ad73622cf0b40a77\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I am pleased to take a call in this second reading of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. I support this bill. Can I, at the outset, acknowledge our matua, our late chief, the Hon Parekura Horomia, who championed the establishment of M\u0101ori Television when he was Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. M\u0101ori Television definitely is a lasting legacy that he has left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI know that all of us, and all of Aotearoa, in fact, are very proud of M\u0101ori Television. It is, by default, our New Zealand State broadcaster. You know, when we watch shows like Native Affairs, Te K\u0101ea, Code, T\u014Dku Reo, and H\u014Dmai Te Pakipaki, those shows have been added to the lexicon of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb038c4d094d4363aefcba71695ea0be\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Kai Time on the Road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd1925336274abe85353a4db461acbf\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Kai Time on the Road. There are so many great shows that this humble, small M\u0101ori Television station produces. You know, talk about what it can produce relative to the relatively meagre resources it has to work with, compared with its very large commercial counterparts. I think it does an exceptional job. Along with acknowledging Parekura, I do acknowledge the current and previous management and staff of M\u0101ori Television for the exceptional job that they did and they do, and also in terms of the programming they create and that we get to enjoy when they broadcast over the network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI support this bill. I am very proud to be a member of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and I do acknowledge the member Nicky Wagner from Christchurch Central, my colleague over there on the other side of the House, because we are like a wh\u0101nau. There was another special moment\u2014two moments, actually\u2014that occurred this morning in our committee in terms of the opening. I will not share them\u2014oh, I might share it with the House, actually, because, believe it or not, we open with a karakia, which is great. That is our custom. That is our tikanga. So we do open with a karakia, and we usually share the job around. This time our dear tuahine over there volunteered to open for us. We are multi-denominational, multiparty, M\u0101ori, P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014you name it. That is us. We are all there for the kaupapa of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. We held hands when we had our karakia this morning to start and to conclude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226560908fbc704f6fb8799f65f3fcb570\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3b9201c0a84a8c81fa5ff7a4da8cc0\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014Nanaia Mahuta was linked with Tau Henare. We had that circle, we had that bond\u2014the band of brothers and sisters\u2014as we kicked off our M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and the important mahi that we do. In all seriousness, it is special and important mahi that we do. I am pleased with the work we did at the committee level, with the contribution from my colleague Clare Curran but also with the contributions from everybody, because this is an important piece of legislation. It has been a long time in the making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThe independent review that was programmed into the 2003 Act was started 5 years ago. We are nearly at the 10th anniversary of M\u0101ori Television, and we are just now implementing in legislation the recommendations of that review. So it definitely has taken a while, but we are nearly there. We have to get there. We are under urgency at the moment, and we need to get this legislation passed because of the digital switch-over that is happening in about a week\u2019s time. So we have got to get all the ducks in a row for M\u0101ori Television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ENot all of the recommendations of the independent review were picked up in the bill itself, but a fair amount of them have been. I specifically refer to the amendments in the substituted section 8, in clause 7, which further refine the language of the function of the M\u0101ori Television Service. The main amendments in the bill are concerned with the management rights to the spectrum, which are now vested in Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. That is a very interesting development, because I would have thought that those management rights could just be conferred on the M\u0101ori Television Service. I think that Television New Zealand can manage all of its part of the spectrum and make all of its decisions. I do not know; maybe they think they are giving too much power to the M\u0101oris by giving those rights to M\u0101ori Television. Instead, the responsibility for the management of the digital spectrum\u20144G, the new, flash, high-definition, multi-platform digital channels, and other things that are yet to be developed\u2014rests with Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EIt is true that we have raised concerns around the composition of that body. I think that too often we get pieces of legislation where we like to prescribe a hell of a\u2014excuse me\u2014where we prescribe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b1f30e96764a3b95b0af5d0a7b7ac9\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: An awful lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b711812f94454d829ffb2a45571708\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014an awful lot of rules and processes, particularly when it comes to M\u0101ori bodies and M\u0101ori entities. This bill is a classic example, because schedule 1 of the Act lists the organisations that make up Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, and, through our inquiries as a select committee, it was clear that some of those organisations were not operating. They were defunct. Some were deregistered from the incorporated societies register. So it needed to be cleaned up because there is statutory recognition of those organisations, they have huge responsibility to appoint members, and those members of the Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho body have very important statutory roles to play. They are the partners to the Crown in terms of M\u0101ori broadcasting and the relationship around M\u0101ori Television. So it was, I think, worthwhile that we made those inquiries. I guess, initially, the concern was that that is not part of the bill, but Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho is a fundamental part of the Act and the bill, so I think we really had to make those inquiries to make sure that we got to the bottom of the composition and that it was tidied up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ETo conclude, we do support this bill. We are looking forward to going through the remaining stages. It has been a long time in the making, in the running, but I guess we are all looking forward to this new phase for M\u0101ori Television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EBefore I conclude, I would just like to make some remarks about the chief executive, or lack of, for M\u0101ori Television. All I would say is that we like to talk about a waka, but you cannot have a waka without a kaihaut\u016B. You have got to have that chief standing up against the wind, directing his paddlers which way to go. This is an important new chapter for M\u0101ori Television, and it is really important that it has its kaihaut\u016B in place to navigate it through these waters at this time. That is all I would say. I hope we can get the chief executive in place as soon as possible. I am looking forward to celebrating 10 years of M\u0101ori Television next year, and many more to come thereafter. I support this bill. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022 data-id=\u00226d131b2bc080493eb6b25a0cd976bb26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d131b2bc080493eb6b25a0cd976bb26\u0022\u003ECLAUDETTE HAUITI (National):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to pick up one major point that quite a few of my colleagues have been making, which is around the minor amendments to the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. One of the amendments is quite major. It reads \u201Cthe protection and promotion of te reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga\u201D where previously it was about the protection and promotion of Te Reo me te tikanga. This amendment addresses the vulnerability of the integrity of Te Reo by changing that principal function, the M\u0101ori language and its accepted and customary usage, and that is really important for providers of programmes to the M\u0101ori Television Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EWhat it means is that it has implemented a measurable outcome for the service to achieve in terms of Te Reo and tikanga. That means, then, that programmes like Mister Ed dubbed over in Te Reo M\u0101ori are no longer acceptable. Programmes like \u201CThe Happy and Hapless Home Videos Replayed\u201D with a Te Reo - speaking presenter are now no longer acceptable under this classification of Te Reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga. This bill is about protection of the context in which the Reo is placed, and how it is used and maintained. The context must enhance the mana and integrity of the Reo. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c60b2b2af0c84e53897fe983ca392200\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c60b2b2af0c84e53897fe983ca392200\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. A little bit of whakapapa\u2014kinship\u2014which eclipses political affiliation, caused me to be over there on the other side of the House for a mercifully short period of time. I stand to provide a little bit of background and history in respect of this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is important that we think right back to the efforts at Waiwhet\u016B Marae, where in the 1980s the original kohanga reo was established. Then there was a push to achieve recognition in the time of the Hon Koro W\u0113tere for Te Reo M\u0101ori. That led to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e718b3d7140f47fa87b0af190cd55aac\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: A great man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd571bb4d6a2432da6dd64d430e69310\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, unlike the current Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, he was a great man. Then that led to Te Reo being regarded as a taonga, as a manatunga. That led to the M\u0101ori Language Commission being formed, and a host of other bodies. M\u0101ori Television has had a rather chequered history, but we stand quite staunch in promoting it as an institution that plays a key role in the revival and dissemination of our language usages and customs that are often regarded as following in the wake of language development. It relies now on modern technology that the current Minister in his dealings with the Minister for Communications and Information Technology\u2014i.e., I am talking about the spectrum, which is now the new highway\u2014and the current activists and future users of the language should look to. It is a shame that the Minister has failed miserably. Never have we seen a worse outcome for language activists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIndeed, on M\u0101ori Television only tonight, Piripi Walker, one of the key members of Ng\u0101 Kaiwhakap\u016Bmau i te Reo\u2014i.e., those who seek to provide permanent status of the language\u2014was very diplomatic, a little bit like myself. He did not quite say in candid terms that the Minister has been asleep, not at the wheel but at the helm, at the prow, in the puku, and climbing up the sail of this waka. Minister, I say to you that this is a piffling contribution. On the day this is going through, he has been told to keep quiet and accept this modest improvement whilst spectrum rights have been denied to the Treaty partner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EA Government is entitled to treat an iwi how it likes, but the M\u0101ori Party is not entitled to diminish, to destroy, or to betray the dreams of the M\u0101ori people, and that is what has happened today. That is why, although we stand and we see some modest improvements associated with this bill, it is a very bleak day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt comes down to the quality of advocacy. I have had my differences with earlier Ministers of M\u0101ori Affairs. I had my differences at one stage when a former Minister, Tau Henare, decided to appoint Joe Williams, who had been a lawyer and a judge of the M\u0101ori Land Court as a consequence of his intervention\u2014a very bright guy, but we were often at odds with each other about the iwi thesis. But that was a Minister who showed courage and boldness. This has been around for so long that members of the M\u0101ori media community and iwi have lost sight of where these improvements actually came from. But they are emblematic of the very lacklustre, tired, and largely irrelevant contributions that the Minister has made. It is like keeping a rugby player who has faded to a point where he is better to be on the bench permanently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI had my misgivings about the M\u0101ori Television Electoral College. We had discussions on our side of the House, and the sense was to allow the college to refine its processes and improve its own set of accountabilities. But a number of the organisations I have referred to as waka kihau, which is the M\u0101ori way of saying, in English, ghost ships. We need to be absolutely sure, because of the value of taonga and the capacity being transmitted, that they do not decide to follow some whim of the M\u0101ori Party and promise to 72 iwis that they can all have their own radio station\u2014an absurd idea\u2014or their own TV station. This requires bulking up the resource, bulking up the talent, not atomising effort. I think it is very, very sad on this particular day that M\u0101ori Television is covering on Te Karere evidence of the abject failure of the current Minister and his colleagues to have an inch of influence with the dowager of Te Wai Pounamu, otherwise known as the Minister of Broadcasting. If there was ever evidence where the power imbalance lies here, M\u0101oridom have had it shown to them today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, I do not have time to digress into the inordinately large consultancy fees associated with the Te Puni K\u014Dkiri report. Some is related to the bill, because it says \u201Cstrategic advice\u201D. But rest assured that scores of Official Information Act questions are being composed as we speak, to seek justification as to why the Minister has been unable to attract enough talent into that particular organisation. Has that caused a delay in this bill being at the point it is? There were earlier reports lying behind this bill. One was by a panel called Te K\u0101hui o M\u0101hutonga. It includes the M\u0101ori word for the Southern Cross, Te M\u0101hutonga. I think that Te M\u0101hutonga, the Southern Cross, a key feature of navigation, needed to be imprinted in the Minister\u2019s mind so that he had a sense of how to navigate progress\u2014not go round in circles, not give in so easily, and not be forced to back down whilst talking tough to the hap\u016B and the iwi. These might sound rather jarring remarks, but this is a robust House. It is the highest court in the land, and we are drawing to an end. It is important that our people, as they watch an improved version of M\u0101ori Television over the Christmas holidays, contemplate the need\u2014and the importance\u2014for the Minister to receive a very sharp reminder of his total irrelevance to the behaviour and the conduct of where the power is, which is not with the M\u0101ori Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI need to come back and talk a wee bit more about dramas around the chief executive officer. At the end of the day the board appoints its own chief executive officer, and I hope that it reaches a decision with alacrity. It has been very disturbing to learn that the former Minister, the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, put herself in a position that was very, very awkward, supporting a candidate who apparently\u2014I have no evidence of this\u2014left under a cloud from Television One. But all of it only goes to damage the perception initiated, I must confess, by the very idle approach shown by the Minister towards M\u0101ori broadcasting. When Koro W\u0113tere and Parekura Horomia were around, they had dramatic support from the highest levels of Government. Indeed, I would say, even in the time of Winston Peters and Tau Henare\u2014they had their differences. That is cool. I occasionally have my own differences with some of my colleagues. That is part of being M\u0101ori in Parliament. It is exaggerated by the media. It occasionally happens with the Greens, and I wear that often as a badge of honour, but that is another matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI would say that this bill, although it collects our support, shows that too little has been done. If you want M\u0101ori communities to improve the quality of language and the frequency of language, and to broaden the language out so we overcome the cringe factor with regard to our P\u0101keh\u0101 cousins in Aotearoa and other ethnic groups, it needs leadership. Unfortunately, the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, for the last 5 to 6 years\u2014intolerably long\u2014has provided hopeless leadership. It is one thing to be a good, hail-fellow-well-met sort of character, but when you are dealing with powerful personalities, as is the case in the National Cabinet, there is no place for the old figure\u2014i.e. of the 1950s\u2014\u201CPai kare, it\u2019ll be right.\u201D That belongs in the past. The quality of advocacy that has caused the collapse of M\u0101ori aspirations today in relation to spectrum rights\u2014there are spectrum rights. There most certainly are. Indeed, Labour went some way to recognising an entitlement there, and made a grant to shunt forward M\u0101ori participation in the new, emerging information and communications technology sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is important that we not overlook that the value of the language eclipses the efforts of politicians. Fortunately, the language will live on, in spite of the miserable efforts of the current Minister. That is cool, that is politics, etc., and that will change next year. But M\u0101ori Television has a bright future. Its future, however, depends on its board of governors choosing the right chief executive officer and Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, the waka kihau\u2014the ghost ship\u2014ensuring that this capacity and taonga is used to achieve the ends of the legislation, which is to popularise the language throughout New Zealand as an ongoing feature of our indigenous identity and a contribution to multicultural New Zealand. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2db0ddcb1c3450ebf447243f397b48f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2db0ddcb1c3450ebf447243f397b48f\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a short call on this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. I joined the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee towards the end of its consideration and can recount some of the discussion that may be useful in this part of its progress. There was a lot of discussion, which members have pointed to, around Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho and its role as an electoral college, and concerns that some of its constituent organisations were not fully representative of the supposed interests that they are there to promote. We had quite an in-depth discussion about what more could happen, but in the end we noted, for all the reasons that my colleague Shane Jones has outlined in his discussion, that it should not impede the progress of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWith regard to the digital switch-over, the pragmatism of the select committee was that we wanted to ensure that M\u0101ori Television could continue to do what it does really well, and let us face it: it is the public broadcaster of New Zealand. It does promote the identity of New Zealand in ways that we would not see on Television One or TV3. What it does is provide an access point for many New Zealanders to see our New Zealand through a different lens. We have a platform that promotes indigenous broadcasting. We have a platform that promotes Te Reo M\u0101ori through a number of mediums\u2014through H\u014Dmai Te Pakipaki, through game shows, through documentaries, through sitcoms and the like, and through M\u0101ori language learning programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EOne of the impacts of the review that will be a positive gain, I think, for the development of Te Reo M\u0101ori is to ensure that the language becomes more accessible in contemporary broadcasting terms. So, as a mother of young kids, I am absolutely delighted that M\u0101ori Television will be promoting Dora the Explorer in Te Reo M\u0101ori. My son watches\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239bc5b98374e4575aba5a3a4a9e8228e\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: And SpongeBob.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a985b026f24bda85be7b0637eec4b6\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014and SpongeBob Square Pants. I have to say that that is probably more for an older audience\u2014probably for us in here. The point of it is that our children, wherever they are, live in a very diverse world. Whether it is Dora the Explorer, whether it is M\u0101ui, whether it is Diego, or whether it is something about dragons or something about taniwha, the fact is that our children today are not limited to the world of Te Ao M\u0101ori and they want to have accessible access to what is on offer in their global community. That is the world that I am bringing my child up in, and I am absolutely delighted that M\u0101ori Television has taken the step to ensure that there are programmes that are accessible in Te Reo M\u0101ori for a new, emerging generation, who see the world as their oyster, who want access to the global indigenous community and to the global community, and who will see that through M\u0101ori Television. So I am certainly supportive of the aspects of this bill that will open up that prospect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other part of the conversation that is important to this bill is, I guess, the future relationship of the Ministers responsible for M\u0101ori Television and how that relationship will continue with Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, especially in the future review of M\u0101ori Television. We ensured in the select committee, and we took on board advice, that there would be a good amount of negotiation and agreement around the terms of reference for the review of M\u0101ori Television. The benefit of doing that is to ensure, as was initially envisaged when M\u0101ori Television commenced, that the partnership approach to the governance and the setting of direction for M\u0101ori Television was one that would be done by agreement. With the hindsight of 20-odd years, looking at how things have happened and could happen better, I think this is a progressive step and a step in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMembers before me have spoken about the governance issue. I really do not want to add too much more to what has been said, except to agree with the comments of my colleagues, certainly on the Labour benches, that the governance of M\u0101ori Television is absolutely critical. It should not have a level of perceived interference by political appointments, which recently became a part of the focus. The reason why I say this is that there will be some of us in this House who would remember that back in the days of Aotearoa Television, it was not so easy to get over the threshold of having such an innovative approach to M\u0101ori language and M\u0101ori broadcasting through a M\u0101ori television station. So there is a spotlight, whether people want to acknowledge it or not, on everything that happens in this space. At the governance level, it is, I guess, an area where we will have to assure ourselves that there is a robust and transparent way of appointing those who lead M\u0101ori Television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI have seen the growth of the people in the M\u0101ori Television space. Jim Mather has since left and gone to Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa. He has certainly provided enough sunlight for talented potential to grow in M\u0101ori Television. It has been good to see the people who initially started at the lower levels, or on the lower rungs, if you like, in the broadcasting space now assuming roles at the management level in the programming parts of M\u0101ori Television, and can I make this comment. In an organisation such as M\u0101ori Television, which I believe is making a huge contribution to the development of Te Reo M\u0101ori, to see the growth of talent through that organisation being reflected in all parts of its operation is absolutely exciting. Whether those people are in front of the camera or behind it, or negotiating the various programmes and the way in which M\u0101ori Television is marketed externally, talent has been growing through this particular medium alone, and I am really positive about the way in which M\u0101ori Television can go into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWhen I first used to visit schools and ask the kids: \u201CWell, what do you want to do?\u201D, initially the answer was: \u201COh, you know, I think I want to be a teacher.\u201D, or it would be that they wanted to do law, or commerce, or things like that. Now it might be: \u201CI want to get into tourism, into hospitality, into broadcasting\u2014hopefully I am going to be making my own programmes on M\u0101ori Television.\u201D, and this is certainly what is reflected back from M\u0101ori young people within the school system. So that is the extent to which M\u0101ori Television has had a positive impact on another generation coming through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are some aspects of the bill that I will be only too happy to allude to in the Committee stage in order to contribute to this debate, but for this small part can I say again that, notwithstanding the concerns around Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee did not feel that those concerns were significant enough to impede the progress of the bill. But we still want to ensure that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2019 attention around ensuring the robustness of that particular body and the fulfilling of its obligations is something that he may consider a watching brief. N\u014D reira, i t\u0113nei w\u0101, ka tuku te mihi atu ki a koutou katoa. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c53a1e516b174f9aa2b4c4f70599e93a\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022422516a8b35e430da69a7d7798e7adb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022422516a8b35e430da69a7d7798e7adb0\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for this bill to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b4fe8a65d14ea981e0993634ee2209\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is an instruction to the Committee, because we will be in Committee for the next stage. Leave is sought that there be an instruction to the Committee to take the remaining stages in Committee as one debate. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is none. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d11f1fb60f784311a78a69975c5c1fd2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d64f5d24ed974028ab18fd58ac62f0c1\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2 and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u002208347988aa3d4feca5a96e3d827f7100\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208347988aa3d4feca5a96e3d827f7100\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E There has been much made in the discussion on the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill about the contribution of M\u0101ori Television to the broadcasting environment in New Zealand and its role over the last 10 years, and its position as a taonga in our broadcasting environment. I would welcome, during the course of this debate, the Minister getting up and telling us what he believes has been that contribution, what his vision is for M\u0101ori Television going forward, and where he sees this bill fitting in as part of that vision going forward, in particular in relation to the use of the spectrum, which is really fundamentally why we are passing this bill under urgency\u2014to get that spectrum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBecause that spectrum has to be converted, the law has to change by the beginning of December in order for that spectrum to be converted. That is why we are rushing through these last parts of this bill right now in order for that to happen. There has to be the context, and the context is that the M\u0101ori Television Service\u2014like Radio New Zealand, like New Zealand On Air, like every publicly funded entity that receives funding for broadcasting\u2014has had its funding frozen for years now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EFour years\u2014I think probably we are heading into the fifth year of no extra funding, and yet we are passing a bill today that transfers the analog spectrum to the digital environment, which is a necessary factor. We are heading into the 10th anniversary for M\u0101ori Television and there is no talk at all about what the development of M\u0101ori Television is going to be and whether that includes a vision for high definition. In that case, there will be a need for more spectrum because\u2014Mr Chair, for your edification\u2014in order for the high-definition channel to be developed, it requires a lot more spectrum than is the current amount of spectrum used for analog television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis issue is actually at the heart of the bill. How that spectrum will be managed, who will manage it, what decisions will be made about it, and in whose interests they will be made are really the big questions that lie behind this bill. I think that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, during the course of the second reading, will have received and hopefully taken note of those specific questions, and will get on to his feet and provide us with some explanation and discussion around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would like to refer back to the briefing to the incoming Ministers\u2014the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and the Minister of Finance. They are the Minister in the chair, Pita Sharples, and also the shareholding Minister, Bill English. They have been referred to on a number of occasions as ducking for cover on the appointment of the new chief executive at M\u0101ori Television. They had a briefing from M\u0101ori Television in 2011. That briefing referred specifically to the management rights and spectrum allocation and the impending change to digital television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThat briefing raised questions\u2014in a very polite manner, but it still raised questions\u2014about how that spectrum was going to be managed and who was going to manage it. It harked back to what happened in 2010, I think it was, if I am correct\u2014and correct me if I am wrong\u2014when there was a lessening of the amount of analog spectrum for M\u0101ori Television, which happened really under the noses of everybody and without much public comment. But there was a reduction in the amount of spectrum, where M\u0101ori Television had no say. It was a reduction from 32 megahertz down to 16 megahertz. There have subsequently been concerns raised about whether in the future that may happen again, and, if it did happen again, what role and what rights M\u0101ori Television would have to ensure that that did not happen and that it had some say in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe other absolutely critical issue is around the funding for M\u0101ori Television and how it can manage its future in this environment, in which funding has been frozen. We all know that the effect of funding freezes over a number of years actually equates to funding cuts because the service cannot continue to operate at the same level. I think we must put on the record that M\u0101ori Television and Radio New Zealand, in that environment of frozen funding, have both done exceedingly well in providing the service that they do to the New Zealand public in our straitened public broadcasting environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBut if we are to look at going into the modern digital environment, where there are multiple platforms, where there is the possibility of higher-definition television\u2014as we should be considering and as we should be having the debate around\u2014what ability will M\u0101ori Television have to do that? What rights will it have over the ability to do that through its spectrum? How will it do that if there is no ability for its cost structures and sources of income to be increased or reviewed, and for it to actually take control of its own future? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EGiven that this is the 10th anniversary of M\u0101ori Television in New Zealand, I would like to get some indication from the Minister in the chair as to what his belief is, what his vision is, and what his ideas are around how M\u0101ori Television can take us into its second decade and perform that important role as a taonga in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would also like to reiterate my concerns around the management of the spectrum under the Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho structure and the governance structure in the context that, as the Minister himself said in his second reading speech, it is in a state of flux. There are question marks around the composition of the groups that make it up and its ability to perform those governance functions effectively to the standard that we need to have at the electoral college\u2014that relationship between the Crown and the electoral college. So I would like to hear more from the Minister on that. I think there is a question mark, and that question mark is in the commentary on the bill. It seems very ironic that we are passing a piece of legislation, which we have to pass by the beginning of December in order to transfer that spectrum over, where there is a huge question mark in the bill over the governance process of the management of that spectrum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI think, as I said in my second reading speech, that the Government really should have had its house in order in terms of that issue. It came up in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee only under questioning from members of the committee, on both sides. But it really did emerge only in the select committee, because it certainly was not in the officials\u2019 advice to the select committee. It really did emerge only during the discussions. Why was it that it came up only then? What are the Government and Minister doing about it to ensure that we can be reassured that M\u0101ori Television can progress, can move into the modern era with the spectrum that is being transferred over, can move into an era of high definition, will have the amount of spectrum it needs to do that, will have some control over the way its spectrum is managed, and, more important, will have its funding reviewed and, hopefully, increased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5d1602df8d14209ab921234a9572167\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5d1602df8d14209ab921234a9572167\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I know at home the eyes of the people listening to this debate, the Committee stage of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill, may be glazing over because we are talking about spectrum\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225adefff498b64368a45de414e4aec6b3\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2396e37242b4aa0a9e6be6013be1b6b\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014not necessarily in particular reference to the previous speaker, my colleague Clare Curran, but because we are speaking about spectrum. Maybe I should not have said that. Because we are talking about spectrum, sometimes\u2014excuse the pun\u2014that goes over the head of most New Zealanders. But what is important here is that because we are having what is called the digital switch-over on, I believe, 1 December, an analog frequency that was allocated to M\u0101ori Television will under this bill be allocated to another organisation called Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. It will be that organisation that essentially gets to utilise that old analog spectrum. Where that spectrum becomes important is that it can actually be transformed into a digital spectrum. In that spectrum there is the ability for eight digital TV stations to be carried, so one old spectrum becomes a new digital spectrum in which you can broadcast eight TV stations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWhy is this important? Because in the future if someone wants to start up a TV station, and if the M\u0101ori Television Service had that spectrum, it would have the ability to lease out one of those eight stations to make some money off it. But because there has been a transfer of that spectrum from the M\u0101ori Television Service to Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, it is taking away a potential revenue-gathering plan for the M\u0101ori Television Service. We have heard from my colleagues about the importance of making sure that the M\u0101ori Television Service has increased revenue. I think my colleague Clare Curran just made the point in her previous speech and Nanaia Mahuta made a reference to that in her second reading speech. So the question that I want to ask the Minister in the chair at the moment, the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, is: why? How will the proceeds of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho\u2019s management of that spectrum benefit the M\u0101ori Television Service, which is forgoing the right to that spectrum? So if he can answer those questions, that would be very useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think that the M\u0101ori Television Service would feel a little bit hard done by if it had this asset that is no longer going to be used, but that could be used in a different way to make some revenue, to host other broadcasters, but that has now been taken off it. So to the Minister in the chair\u2014and this specifically refers to paragraphs (c) and (ca) in clause 4(2), about the spectrum management rights\u2014I ask: how is it going to be utilised by Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho? How will the funds from that, if it makes any money from it, go to the M\u0101ori Television Service or not? And why, specifically, has that spectrum management right been transferred from the M\u0101ori Television Service to Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho and not stayed with the M\u0101ori Television Service? I do not know whether there is a decent enough answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI guess it goes to show that there is no real, overarching vision from the Government around spectrum use. We have seen it in 4G. The Government has just announced\u2014and I think my colleague has put a press release out today\u2014its intentions to sell off the 4G network, which has just become available. Instead of being able to ring-fence some of that 4G spectrum or think of other uses where it can be utilised, it just says that it is going to flog them all off. As Clare Curran mentioned in, I think, her second reading speech, very recently Sky television said it was going to give four packets of this analog spectrum back. So four times eight, because of the theory I said before, means that up to 32 television stations could be broadcast on the four packets of spectrum that Sky has just handed back to the Government. As of yet we have had no word from the Government as to what it intends to do with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EJust to give those at home an understanding of what these frequencies are worth, one of those packets recently sold for about $1.7 million at the auction that the Government held. Am I right here? [Interruption] Yes, it was roughly $1.7 million. So these are resources that have got some cost. Obviously in the future, as digital technology gets better, it may actually be able to hold more transmission capability. So if people want to start television stations here in New Zealand, these are the kinds of things that they are going to need be able to broadcast. So they will have some future value. I would like to see an overarching strategy from this Government\u2014I am not expecting one\u2014as to how it manages the spectrum that has just become available to it from Sky, and the spectrum in the 4G sphere, which my colleague Clare Curran has already mentioned today, and what it sees as the best fit. That is not just to hock them off to the highest bidder but to say: \u201COK, if we\u2019ve got four packets that have just come back from Sky television, do we ring-fence some of that for any public broadcasting future?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have announced today that we think the Government should ring-fence one of those packets\u2014one packet of analog, which can be transferred into eight television stations at this moment\u2014that has just been given to it, to make sure that that is protected for any future public broadcasting. If the Government sells those four packets off to the highest bidder, they are all gone. So if any future Government that is actually committed to public broadcasting, like members on this side of the House, wants to start up a public broadcaster, there will be some spectrum available for us to do that. But what I fear will happen\u2014and those members have gone quiet, so this is probably what is going to happen\u2014is that those four packets will just be hocked off to the highest bidder. So when it comes to the time for members on this side of the House to say that we want to start up a public broadcaster, there will be zero spectrum available to us. So we will probably have to go back, cap in hand, to whoever bought that spectrum and say: \u201CWe need some of it back.\u201D If I had bought that spectrum, I would say: \u201CWell, things have changed. You really want to do this, so you are going to have to buy it at a much higher price.\u201D Well, in the long run that is bad for the taxpayer, because not only do we have to pay more for the spectrum but we could have held on to it and ring-fenced it so that we had the ability to not just start one but also have seven more television networks there on that spectrum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI will propose this challenge to the Government, and maybe the Minister in the chair would like to see how this works for the M\u0101ori Television Service, as well. This Government has the ability now to ring-fence spectrum, to manage spectrum, in a responsible manner for State broadcasting. You probably get to sell it or lease it only once every 20 years, so what the Government does now is very important. It can either hock it off, and it has a track record of doing that, or it can say: \u201CThis is important stuff right now. We might be able to sell some of it, but this is going to be saved for any future Government. They might want to do it\u201D\u2014again, I am not expecting it\u2014\u201Cfor public broadcasting.\u201D So that is another question that I might pose to the Minister in the chair around spectrum, because this management arrangement in the bill seems a little bit strange to me. Again, I guess it is a little bit symptomatic of a Government that does not have an overarching plan when it comes to spectrum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIt is very important. People at home are actually watching Parliament TV now on spectrum. If they want to see any future public broadcasting stations, there is going to have to be spectrum available there for it. So this Government needs to make a pretty hard decision: does it care about public broadcasting enough to ring-fence some spectrum or not? I think that this bill, around the way that the spectrum from M\u0101ori Television Service is changing the management rights to Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, shows the kind of attitude that this Government has to spectrum. It does not really care. Well, it should care, because this future Labour Government will be committed to public broadcasting, and we do want to make sure that there is spectrum available for it. If the current Government does not care about public broadcasting, it will just sell that spectrum and we will all know the commitment from that Government to public broadcasting. So it will all be down to a decision that the Government will make very soon about whether it sells it or keeps it. If it sells it, then you know that this Government does not care about public broadcasting. If it keeps it, well, it has proved the critics wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI would ask, though, that maybe the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee could put a bit of pressure on the Government and take a call to say that he agrees with me, because the success of M\u0101ori Television could be augmented by it having another channel. But we do not know how that is going to happen, because it is no longer in charge of the frequencies that it is going to be going out on. That now goes to\u2014no, not M\u0101ori Television\u2014Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. So it cannot manage any further growth without having to go through this other organisation, which may say: \u201CWe don\u2019t care about you having another channel. We\u2019re going to lease out the rest of the spectrum just to make money.\u201D Here is a question, and it is a serious question: if there is money to be made out of the spectrum, what is it going to be used for? I would prefer that it goes back into the culture, but that question has not been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3171b2a2af54c7eb6a68db945a78db9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3171b2a2af54c7eb6a68db945a78db9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairman. In the characteristic spirit of positive contributions that defines me, I want to direct our attention to the question of whether or not M\u0101ori Television, with the change in the M\u0101ori language, Te Reo me \u014Dna tikanga [the language and its customs], is a Trojan horse, where the station will no longer be a bastion of quality language and a prestigious place to go to help people improve their language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI know that report from Te K\u0101hui o M\u0101hutonga, which I thought was not unlike the report from Te Paepae Motuhake to do with Te Reo M\u0101ori, had content inversely related to cost and had quality inversely related to quantity. They were, by and large, reports that did not advance the M\u0101ori language in any practical way. I would love to hear Dr Sharples, our Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, stand and provide some account of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut there is a point at which the underlying raison d\u2019\u00EAtre, the underlying kaupapa, purpose, of the station needs to be tied to something that is a legacy. Is this an opportunity for it to broaden and provide more shows, such as those narrated by Sir Howard Morrison\u2019s son? I have got nothing in particular against that wh\u0101nau, or Matua Parkinson, other than his lapse of smoking dope, but then half of Kait\u0101ia does it. I do not judge him for that either. However, I would say that if we are going to maintain a special position of power and influence for our M\u0101ori Television station in so far as it can be a public television provider, let it not be at the cost of good-quality language. Let it not be at the cost of being a bastion for those people, as the language stops being used in the way that it perhaps was in our grandmothers\u2019 time, and, indeed, in my colleague Tau Henare\u2019s grandparents\u2019 time. New avenues are required, but it is important that new students can find it in an accessible way, not by reading some ancient dictionary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI think Richard Tregear wrote a M\u0101ori language dictionary. That is quite apart from that famous Anglican who ended up with too much Ngati Porou land, Williams. That might have more to do with Ngati Porou than Williams and the Anglican Church. That is another matter\u2014that is another matter. But I would say that we must not compromise on te p\u016Bkenga, te m\u0101r\u016B wehi me te \u0101taahua o Te Reo M\u0101ori, t\u014Dna \u0101taahua [the skilfulness, awesome gentleness, and beauty of the M\u0101ori language, its attractiveness].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIf they are going to make programmes that are broader than Te Reo M\u0101ori, then it is important that it is done in such a way that it actually improves the consciousness. I am tempted to talk about the Minister\u2019s year-long slumber, but that would be unbecoming. But the consciousness of broader New Zealand society is such that the language becomes regarded as something that does not deserve to be sneered at and eventually turns into a part of compulsory study in all New Zealand schools, just as we have to learn geography and social studies. I would like to think that every kid learns civics compulsorily. If it is not happening, then help is on the way. It certainly will be in a year or two. As a part of a robust social studies programme, New Zealand\u2019s first language, our native language, Te Reo M\u0101ori, should be embedded there. But for that to happen society obviously has to lose a lot of its not so much fear but its sense that the language is worthless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI fear that those critics looking at the Minister might collude and say that the language is worthless. The language is not worthless. There may be some problems with the worth of the Minister, but the language is not worthless. I do not think it is fair that we have sat through this debate and we have not really heard a great deal\u2014and that is fine, there are a host of other Ministers. Indeed, there were some on our side who did not feel obliged from time to time to contribute. But let us not compromise the language. Let us ensure that it provides a basis for improving our sense of ownership, our sense of place, in terms of the language being an indelible feature of broad New Zealand civic culture, without M\u0101ori feeling that they are being alienated from their language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I would like to remind us of is that we had a great debate, and it is there in the bill, in terms of management rights. There is an issue as to whether or not Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho may be captured and decide that M\u0101ori Television is not deserving of the entirety of the spectrum, and that other pursuits\u2014there may be the occasional erratic film maker who may come up with a bright scheme from out of the M\u0101ori film-making ether\u2014might want to get some of that spectrum for a different television purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI would counsel and warn against that. I think it is important. Just as under the current Minister, where we have watched M\u0101ori radio wither on the vine, there is no longer any funding for training. These are people who can criss-cross from te irirangi M\u0101ori to te pouaka M\u0101ori. They can criss-cross from M\u0101ori radio to M\u0101ori television and create a bigger cadre of bilingual, sophisticated broadcasters and reporters. I think it is really disappointing that when there is some scope that this waka k\u012Bhau, this ghost ship, will provide the chance for viral activity, people think that by atomising M\u0101ori effort, somehow the kaupapa is going to get stronger. I find very little evidence that that is the case. In relation to te irirangi M\u0101ori\u2014M\u0101ori radio\u2014we have seen that the reason that it has withered is that often it lacks collective effort. You have too many organisations pulling in too many different directions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Minister might say that there is a safeguard there, and that any major changes to spectrum allocation or spectrum use have to have the acquiescence or the statutory consent of the relevant Ministers. In order for those mortgages to be entered into, or for other purposes, the Minister has to buy into it. That is a safeguard, but a number of M\u0101ori will see that as patronising. A number of M\u0101ori will see that as diametrically opposed to the tino rangatiratanga rhetoric that defined the M\u0101ori Party when it was at its best. Unfortunately, much drooping has taken place since that point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b026320fc44ea5b3fbc518f26ef149\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s withered\u2014withered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901ffe7019514bf8ac66a2fb6ef1fece\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The voters will have the final say on that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut when we actually focus in respect of the usage of the spectrum, let us ensure\u2014and the Minister perhaps might provide us with some reassurance\u2014that Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho will not be a nest of instability that then weakens the ability of the major M\u0101ori language television provider. There is some mahi happening in Television One, but I think most M\u0101ori, in terms of language activists and those of us wanting to promote a greater level of knowledge and consciousness about our heritage in M\u0101ori, look to M\u0101ori Television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet us not create a situation where that waka is weakened because of conflicting agendas. I suspect that is what has blighted the attempt to date of M\u0101ori Television to find a person to be the new chief executive officer. There are too many agendas and too many people fighting each other. Of course we have seen this with Hone Harawira having left the M\u0101ori Party and Tariana Turia not sure whether she is going to stay or go. Unfortunately, this is a feature of certain aspects of that type of political creed. That is their business, and our business today as parliamentarians is to ensure that this bill does not provide an opportunity for people with so many conflicting agendas to weaken the resolve of the board. It has actually started to happen. They cannot even find a chief executive officer, which is actually an indictment on the chair of the board, Georgina te Heuheu. That did not seem to make any difference when she was a Minister, and it is unlikely to make any impact on her now. She is not a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhen M\u0101ori Television does make programmes that have broader appeal, it should make a programme about creatures that hibernate. Occasionally they are prodded out of their slumber into a level of consciousness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b024af51282b42238c392afb836eccda\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Who would star in that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a23afc5900c483692ad122f4c00ecad\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I can think of someone who will be unemployed at the end of next year, and out of politics, who may actually star in that programme. Indeed, Georgina te Heuheu could actually star in that at the moment, given the failure to find a chief executive officer and the inability to bring what seems to be conflict to a head. So this is not good for M\u0101ori Television. We stand with M\u0101ori Television in the sense\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5abd6d01ee4ffbaa0f4503454c6607\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5abd6d01ee4ffbaa0f4503454c6607\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I would like my contribution at this Committee stage to really just focus on quite a narrow issue. That matter relates to the actual composition of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. The organisations that make up Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho are listed in schedule 1 of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Act. To be removed from schedule 1 of the Act requires an Order in Council. That Order in Council requires a recommendation from the Minister. The Minister\u2019s recommendation comes through, as to whether they are taking up the decision of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho to that effect. So basically Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho makes a decision, it goes through to the Minister as to whether he will take on that recommendation, then it gets enshrined by Order in Council, and then the Act is amended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EWe have got 11 organisations in schedule 1 of the Act, as I understand it, today. I will not rattle through all of them. There are some longstanding M\u0101ori organisations that have done much work in terms of championing the Reo when doing other great things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f94d4c9c2e04a9f860f07dbbeaf2ae3\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: K\u014Dhanga reo?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293d82f7080c4410084069b26e2ef7581\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Te K\u014Dhanga Reo National Trust is in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d1797d78d046ca8d82203e392bd384\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Special Minister in k\u014Dhanga reo. Kei te moe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c189b09a48584c3ca9e164199c4684cc\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e. We have got the M\u0101ori Council\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424caa4e1ce64d9383f0ac267f8b3728\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224adc938c3e7040b38d64a603bc4aee30\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand M\u0101ori Council. There are the kura kaupapa. There is a whole host of organisations there that comprise Te P\u016Btahi Paoho. That means that those organisations are entitled to appoint a member to Te P\u016Btahi Paoho. So what I am really seeking from the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs is absolute certainty as to the composition of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47237d74c5c4e83bad9c32a350129fd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3de2c91c42a4a6d8a291f151452cbd9\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying before the dinner break, I am seeking clarification from the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs as to the composition of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. It is the statutory body that is now going to have the management and administration rights for the spectrum, under this bill, and it is very important because of, as you know, the issues raised at the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee regarding certain members of that Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho body, specifically because we, as a select committee, were written to by the Minister when we raised these matters. We received a letter from Minister Sharples, which was received here on 20 August, stating that Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho was going to have a meeting on 28 or 29 August to consider the membership status of certain organisations, specifically the National M\u0101ori Congress and Kawea Te Rongo. I know the Minister mentioned in his opening speech that those two organisations have withdrawn from Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI am just seeking clarification from the Minister whether recommendations and an Order in Council have actually gone through to that effect. As I understand it\u2014and I may wrong but it seems clear\u2014under section 14 of the Act it requires an Order in Council on the recommendation of the Minister at the advice or request of the chair of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. Only then can there be the addition or removal of names from Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThe reason why I am seeking clarification is I think it is very important that, given all the issues that we have raised around whether certain bodies are defunct or whether they are operative and whether certain members who are representing those bodies have been validly appointed, we get a record, really, of the decisions that have been made by Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho\u2014a record of the paper trail, I guess\u2014and a record of that going all the way through to the Order in Council. I think, ultimately, that we need the Order in Council, because despite what the Minister may say, the fact that those certain bodies like the National M\u0101ori Congress and Kawea Te Rongo have withdrawn and until those measures have been put in place and given effect to, technically they would still be part of schedule 1 of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EWhat has added to my confusion is that when I looked at the Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho website and looked at the page where it lists all the members of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, it is woefully out of date. It is either that, or I may be mistaken as to who certain members are or who certain organisations are on Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. For instance, it still lists T\u016Bwhakairiora Williams as the chairperson. It still lists Kawea Te Rongo as a member, and a member representing Kawea Te Rongo. This is the actual website itself of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, which again is misleading, because, as I understand it, there is a press release that came out from Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho announcing the appointment of Willie Jackson as the new chair and the appointment of two co-deputy chairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EAll of that goes to show that if the actual administration of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho is not displaying the correct composition or membership of the board, it does not give us much confidence. It does not give us much confidence that the Minister knows what he is doing, the ministry knows what it is doing, and Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho knows what it is doing in terms of who the members are, who the organisations are, who the members are who represent those organisations on Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, and, indeed, how valid the decisions are that it is making as a decision-making body. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EIt is an important body because it is going to be managing significant management rights of the spectrum, and it is a Treaty partner to the Crown in terms of M\u0101ori broadcasting. I think it is incumbent on us to ask the Minister to provide us with the Orders in Council to give us proof as to which organisations are definitively in Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, and who the members of those organisations are in Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. Until we get that comfort, I guess it could be not validly constituted, because we have to make sure that the legal mechanisms have been put in place to make sure that Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho is a valid organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00229f76e987454f4de492cd5a73c107f209\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f76e987454f4de492cd5a73c107f209\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Kua puta m\u0101ku e whakahoki k\u014Drero ki a r\u0101tou kua k\u014Drero mai ki a m\u0101tou, ki ahau i t\u0113nei r\u0101. Tuatahi kei te mihi au ki te Komiti Whiriwhiri Take M\u0101ori. Kua oti pai \u0101 r\u0101tou mahi, \u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. I rongo au i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, \u0101, mo ng\u0101 mahi kua oti i a koutou i \u0101 koutou hui. Kua wh\u0101ia e au t\u0113n\u0101 me taku tari, t\u0113n\u0101 ake koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[It is for me to respond to those who addressed us and me today. First, I acknowledge the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. You have completed your work effectively, so thank you collectively. I heard the comments in respect of what you as a collective completed at your hearings. I and my office have addressed that. Thank you, indeed.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI was just acknowledging the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for the work that it is doing. To everybody in the House who has raised issues, they are all good questions about process and representation and so on, and I am very happy to respond to those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ETe P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho is a group that has been given the management rights of the spectrum. It is essentially an electoral college, which involves those pioneers working in Te Reo M\u0101ori to contribute to a whole moving forward of Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori. It keeps the kaitiakitanga separate from the operations of a commercial enterprise. This is a common thing for M\u0101ori. The electoral college for fisheries represents the tribes in that case. They appoint people on to the board, and that is how it goes. Similarly, this electoral college involves members from the following organisations: Te Whakaruruhau o Ng\u0101 Reo Irirangi M\u0101ori, Te Tau Ihu o Ng\u0101 W\u0101nanga, Ng\u0101 Aho Whakaari, Te R\u016Bnanganui o Ng\u0101 Kura Kaupapa M\u0101ori o Aotearoa, Te R\u016Bnanga o Te Ataarangi, k\u014Dhanga reo, M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League, Ng\u0101 Kaiwhakap\u016Bmau i Te Reo M\u0101ori, and Te Kaunihera M\u0101ori o Aotearoa. Those are the organisations that have somebody in that electoral college. The two that stepped down as a result of inquiries\u2014from both within the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and outside\u2014were the National M\u0101ori Congress delegate and also Kawea Te Rongo. In addition to that, Ng\u0101 Kaiwhakap\u016Bmau i Te Reo M\u0101ori got itself reregistered as an incorporated society\u2014it was incorporated, but it let it lapse, and now it has reregistered itself\u2014to be in accord with the new M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill that has come out now. That is why Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho exists, and that is how the members on that group are selected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ETe P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho cannot provide the use of the spectrum to any third party without the consent of the Ministers involved\u2014there are two of us, the Minister for M\u0101ori Affairs and the Minister of Finance\u2014and without the consent of Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori. So Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho has to actually get the M\u0101ori Television Service to agree with anything it does with this. It provides to Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori certainty of tenure for its operation. In fact, Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho has the same rules and parameters of management of the spectrum as for all other spectrum provided by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EOn the other question that was asked about the quality of Te Reo, I need to tell you that there is one particular clause in this bill that is directed at the growth of M\u0101ori programmes for native speakers\u2014ng\u0101 mea tino matatau ki Te Reo M\u0101ori, ng\u0101 mea i tipu ake i roto i Te Reo. It is for those speakers, so we can have that lot progressing and enjoying and contributing, as well as those who are just arriving at Te Reo M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei w\u0101. That is definitely an aim in this new bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EOn the question of \u014Dna tikanga\u2014ng\u0101 tikanga M\u0101ori\u2014and I have got to remind you that these are iwi leaders and native speakers and people working in the Reo who are half of the people on the board of M\u0101ori Television, Whakaata M\u0101ori. It was felt that \u014Dna tikanga shows that Te Reo is, in fact, part of a culture and a way of life as opposed to existing side by side with some customs. That is basically how we have always referred to Te Reo me \u014Dna tikanga [the language and its customs], to show that it is an essential leadership role but it is also part of the whole culture. So some of the comments that were made earlier actually can be explained by what I have just said now about the place of Te Reo M\u0101ori and \u014Dna tikanga kei roto i Te Ao M\u0101ori [its customs in M\u0101oridom]. So it is all a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAs to the question of the selection of the chief executive officer\u2014when people brought areas that they were worried about to my notice, I immediately contacted the chairperson and the deputy chair and they went to see whether due diligence and proper process was being applied to the selection. They gave me their assurance, so I am waiting for a report when they have made their examination of the whole process and every event in it. Because I am the Minister I have to stay at arm\u2019s length from that process, but as soon as the report is made, I can do something about it and have a look at it, and I intend to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThose are some of the answers to some of the questions that you asked. But I ask you, please, to understand that Whakaata M\u0101ori is part of the M\u0101ori world and in the M\u0101ori world we sort of own everything. We are sort of kaitiaki katoa m\u0101tou o ng\u0101 taonga M\u0101ori katoa [we are all guardians of all of M\u0101ori culture]. So it is hard for people to be excluded from anything, and that is perhaps why we have these electoral colleges operating\u2014to allow more viewpoints to come in on the running of the thing. That is all I have to say at this time, just to answer some of those points that you have raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002223e4dce123a940cf9ca12e0c59992604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223e4dce123a940cf9ca12e0c59992604\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00227b5c2f9da9c84e5baeb1c36a7f3609f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b5c2f9da9c84e5baeb1c36a7f3609f0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Clare Curran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e94734bc26a545af9a6dd76b862fdefc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e94734bc26a545af9a6dd76b862fdefc\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Such a quiet voice, Mr Chair. First of all, I would like to say thank you very much to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs for getting up and taking a call and clarifying his position on some of these issues that have been raised this evening in the debate on this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. I take in good faith what the Minister has said on all of the issues that he has spoken about, and I appreciate and acknowledge what he had to say. I think that given the number of issues that have been raised, the importance of some of these issues, and the context in which they have been raised, that is something that this Committee and this side of the Chamber must acknowledge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EObviously, we on the Labour bench still have concerns, and I will go straight to the appointment process for the chief executive and the request for a report, which I think is a sensible thing to do. But the problem remains that the report that will be received will be after the fact and going back in time, going back in history, to the early part of M\u0101ori Television\u2019s history when there were appointments made and regrets made around those appointments as they did not turn out the way they could and should have. Those lessons should not be repeated, and in any process that is undertaken, I would hope\u2014and I know that the Minister is certainly listening tonight\u2014that it would not be a situation that what we would end up with had to be fixed up afterwards, rather than be dealt with beforehand. I think that has been at the essence of the concern from the Labour side right from the very beginning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Kris Faafoi said in his second reading speech, the Opposition\u2019s role in asking the questions and raising the issues is a vital role in our democracy. Most times it is an essential role, and it can be raising issues that can be dealt with before they become bigger issues. I certainly think that the Minister is listening to that, and we are certainly very interested in the information that is supplied during the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWith regard to the comments the Minister has made around the electoral college and its role at the governance level, I certainly think that all of my colleagues who have spoken in the debate tonight have acknowledged the importance of that role and also the history of that role. The problems are\u2014I hesitate to say \u201Coperational\u201D\u2014around the composition, the fact that that governance body ended up being questioned in terms of its ability to govern, and what the status was of all of the individual bodies that made it up. It was so serious\u2014and the Minister would certainly know this\u2014that it was mentioned and a great deal of attention was given to it during the discussion on the bill in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and it was also in the committee\u2019s report back to the House. That seemed to me to be quite an unusual situation. A live issue that had not been dealt with was drawn to Parliament\u2019s attention as something that still had yet to be dealt with in order for this bill to turn into legislation that was workable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI also would like to mention\u2014and this is something that has not been mentioned in the debate today\u2014that one of the core amendments to this legislation was to try to find a way through if there was going to be debate around the management of the spectrum. This was certainly supported by the Labour members, and I say thank you to the officials for inserting it. It amends clause 10 of the bill to insert a new section 24DA into the Act, allowing the appointment of a mediator if the responsible Ministers and Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho could not resolve any disagreement about the administration of spectrum management rights that would require their joint determination. What that means is that there is an acknowledgment that there could be disagreements and that there could be the need for some resolution of them. How that mediation would work I think is still up in the air. I think it is of concern that it would even have to be anticipated, but I certainly think that it was a sensible amendment to the bill, because it provides a way forward if there is the need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWhat it presupposed was that the management of the spectrum\u2014and this is the essence of Labour\u2019s argument tonight\u2014is a concern, and there is still a question mark around what its future use will be. Given that we are moving into the digital environment, given that there will be more spectrum available, and given that not all of that spectrum is allocated to M\u0101ori Television, the big question remains as to what its future use is going to be and what the Government\u2019s position on that is. What is the Crown\u2019s position? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis is Parliament. This is where we get to discuss these things. If the Minister is not able to take another call, or is not of a mind to take another call, in the Committee stage, I certainly hope that in his third reading speech he will go to that point and tell the House where the Government\u2019s thinking is and where the Crown\u2019s thinking is on that matter. In terms of the M\u0101ori Television Service\u2019s future and the next 10 years of its existence, I think this Committee needs to be assured that in the Government\u2019s mind it is a future that is about expansion and the golden age, as has been referred to by another member in this Chamber. I think this Committee needs to be assured that there will be a golden age for M\u0101ori Television and that that is very much at the forefront of the Government\u2019s mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4e4766092544c208d3f6b0c0606b501\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4e4766092544c208d3f6b0c0606b501\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Can I also join my colleague Clare Curran in thanking the Minister in the chair, the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, for taking some time to answer some of the questions that we have asked through the Committee stage. I think he has done a very honourable job of that and gone a long way to answering some of the questions, particularly around the management of the spectrum, and he touched briefly on the appointment process for the chief executive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIf he is able to, could he enlighten us more around the spectrum management and the fact that the management of the part of the spectrum that was held by the M\u0101ori Television Service is now being handed over to Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. He did mention to us that if there was going to be any change in the way that the spectrum was used, it would have to go through him and also the Minister of Finance. I think I heard him say that the service, which I am led to believe is the M\u0101ori Television Service, would also have to approve that. That does not necessarily mean that there will not be revenue gathered or that the spectrum that is within that packet of spectrum will not be used for another purpose, and, in fact, it gave us a process as to how that can be used. So my question to the Minister in the chair is, what will be some of the parameters as to how the spectrum can be utilised? If it is leased out, where does the revenue from that lease agreement go to? Will it stay within the realms of Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho? Will it be passed back to the Government as pure revenue? Will it be used elsewhere with Te Reo, to promote the use of Te Reo? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think there might be an argument that because that spectrum was given to the M\u0101ori Television Service originally, any extra revenue that might come from the future utilisation of it might be reinvested back into the M\u0101ori Television Service. Obviously, this argument is very prudent and timely at the moment because of the budget freeze that the M\u0101ori Television Service is under. With advancing technology moving forward and becoming more costly, those costs will increase over time for the M\u0101ori Television Service so that it is able to meet the demands and needs of the changing technology. I guess if we can get from the Minister in the chair some more specifics about how the revenue that might come about from the utilisation of that spectrum will be used and how it might be used\u2014will it be poured back into the M\u0101ori Television Service, or will it go to some other avenue that could perhaps promote Te Reo or the M\u0101ori culture? Or, as I mentioned earlier, could it go straight back to the Crown as money to go back into the consolidated fund? That is just one particular aspect in terms of the questions that the Minster answered. If he can give us some more clarification, that would be useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EJust to conclude\u2014also the process around the investigation into the appointment process of the chief executive. I wonder whether\u2014and I am not sure what the terms of reference might be\u2014the investigation might be able to look further than just at those involved in the process and those who might have wanted to include themselves in the process. I mention that because I understand that someone from Television New Zealand may have approached either a board member or someone at the M\u0101ori Television Service during the appointment process with what I understand to be concerns about one particular candidate. I think that that needs to be addressed. If we have someone at the State broadcaster with concerns about someone who is applying for a job\u2014the chief executive role at the M\u0101ori Television Service\u2014and those concerns are not being able to be passed through, that is a major concern when we look at the interests of public broadcasting in a wider sense. If there is concern at the major broadcaster about the suitability of someone for a position, then you have got to wonder why that is not being passed on to those making the decision about the chief executive role at the M\u0101ori Television Service now\u2014that is a very, very important decision for what someone called a treasure to Te Reo and to M\u0101ori culture, established by the previous Labour Government. Also we need to make sure that there is independence and a solid decision being made about an entity that receives $36 million in taxpayer funding each year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI am going to stop there and, potentially, maybe get some answers from the Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00227013ad7d69cd4a9b951fce2ab94bcd45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227013ad7d69cd4a9b951fce2ab94bcd45\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. The mediator idea is not really necessary because Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho does not have anything to do with the actual management of the Whakaata M\u0101ori spectrum. That is totally Whakaata M\u0101ori\u2019s province. Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho is a group that represents Te Ao M\u0101ori, who are kaitiaki of that taonga. They are there because they represent groups who are fighting for the survival of t\u014D t\u0101tau Reo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIf we go back to 1960 the reo was in a very poor state, and it began with Ng\u0101 Tamatoa and Kaiwhakap\u016Bmau i Te Reo and we grew. In 1980 you would have been hard put to find any MPs in this House who could name more than four tribes, because the Government did not trade with M\u0101ori at all. So we have come a long way, and there will be mistakes made along the way. Just to answer your question, a mediator for Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho would be unnecessary, really, because that does not involve its role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAs for the future use of the spectrum, I think one of the most important things there is Whakapiki i Te Reo, so that we can make sure there is growth in Aotearoa, and so that we can provide programmes on M\u0101ori Television that complement the work done outside by Panekiretanga, kura kaupapa, w\u0101nanga, and those others, right down to k\u014Dhanga. If you go into M\u0101ori homes that are involved in one of these Te Reo M\u0101ori programmes, you will find all the family and the little children are watching M\u0101ori programmes, in the main, until the teenager wants to switch to TV2. So that is the most important thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe second thing is the quality of Te Reo M\u0101ori to actually provide programmes that lift the bar in terms of Te Reo M\u0101ori and expose different tribal authorities or experts in Te Reo M\u0101ori, speaking and debating on the marae but also discussing topics like Halley\u2019s Comet and how often it comes, combustion engines, or whatever is topical. That requires a degree of excellence in Te Reo M\u0101ori to be able to carry that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe other thing is to have relevant programmes for M\u0101ori to grow as a people in this country but also to embrace New Zealand as a single culture. It is a fact that they did remove from the first draft the idea that it is there for all parts of\u2014I have forgotten the actual wording. But they have taken away the clause to cover the needs of all New Zealanders because it has a particular function. You cannot do everything, so it is focusing on Te Reo M\u0101ori and, through that, out to the rest of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESo more Reo content, more quality Reo content, are our desires for that. Also, there is the international involvement. Whakaata M\u0101ori has led the world of indigenous people, to create a network of indigenous television, and it is really exciting that we are able to share programmes of other indigenous peoples\u2019 journeys and note the parallels, and so on. So that is some of the stuff that I can give off the cuff about the plans for Whakaata M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThere is no change in the spectrum use of Whakaata M\u0101ori allocation. So it is, in fact, still the same allocation to pursue those goals. It is not going to change halfway through, as some thought might happen. That is not going to happen because of, if you like, the direction that they have written down to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI think it is important to note the support that Whakaata M\u0101ori provides to other M\u0101ori initiatives that consummate, if you like, the fact that there is a M\u0101ori culture in this country\u2014like during the Rugby World Cup. M\u0101ori Television was getting some of the games to broadcast but, even more important, it was showcasing M\u0101ori rugby in the waka M\u0101ori down at the waterfront, and there are other activities that it does in the public arena like, as you have mentioned, Anzac Day, tangihanga of leaders, and things like that. People get an insight into that. The reaction is very, very positive, and it should be because it is real and it is New Zealand. It is for all New Zealand. So that is all I have to say at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2 and clause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 391 in the name of the Hon Dr Pita Sharples to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da67760c004149a0bdcf21a15e44b7cf\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u002207db02cd7ef74576860675d50626811a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207db02cd7ef74576860675d50626811a\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. Kai te korero au i Te Reo M\u0101ori. Hai Te M\u0101ngai, hai Te Whare, t\u0113nei ka mihi m\u014D ng\u0101 ekenga o t\u0113nei pire ki t\u0101na p\u0101nuitanga tuatorutanga. Ka riro m\u0101na e whakanikoniko i te waka nei o Whakaata M\u0101ori i roto i ng\u0101 tirohanga \u014D n\u0101tatanei. E kite ana kai te pai te hanga o te waka, kai te pakari ng\u0101 kaihoe o te waka, kai te \u0101rahi ng\u0101 kaiurungi i te waka ki t\u014Dna pae tawhiti, ar\u0101, ko te oranga o Te Reo M\u0101ori t\u0113r\u0101. T\u0101 t\u0113nei pire he whakanikoniko i te waka. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EEhara i te mea he waka h\u014Du t\u0113nei, i roa te t\u0101rai, \u0101, kua tekau tau e hoe ana. Ka nui aku mihi ki ng\u0101 kait\u0101rai me ng\u0101 kaihoe. Ko \u0113tahi \u014D r\u0101tau, kua riro ki te w\u0101hi ngaro, p\u0113n\u0101 i a Parekura. Ko t\u0101 t\u0101tau maioha ki a r\u0101tau m\u0101, he h\u0101pai i ng\u0101 hoe o te waka nei. I \u0113tahi w\u0101 he moana pukepuke ka hoe, i \u0113tahi an\u014D w\u0101 he moana marino. E t\u0101tau m\u0101, ko taku kupu ki a t\u0101tau i t\u0113nei w\u0101, ki te hoe, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EHai Te M\u0101ngai, n\u014D mua r\u0101 an\u014D a Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori i aronui ki ng\u0101 hangarau p\u0101oho. N\u014D muri noa mai, i te hainatanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi, i t\u0101ia ko te niupepa Reo M\u0101ori tuatahi. I kaha h\u0101pai a Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei kaupapa, \u0101, he nui atu i te wh\u0101 tekau ng\u0101 niupepa Reo M\u0101ori i waenga i te tau 1842 me te tau 1930. I te taenga mai o te hangarau h\u014Du, ka h\u0101paitia e \u014D m\u0101tau t\u012Bpuna, me te tau mai o \u0113tahi kupu hoki ki Te Reo M\u0101ori p\u0113nei i te \u201Cwaea\u201D me te \u201Cterewhonu\u201D. \u0100, i ng\u0101 tau toru tekau, ka riro m\u0101 T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata te waea ki tawhiti tuatahi m\u014D Aotearoa nei, n\u0101 Aotearoa ki Ahitereiria, \u0101, ko ana kupu tuatahi hoki he k\u014Drero M\u0101ori. Taro ake ki te w\u0101 nei o te pouaka whakaata, me maumahara, me whai whakaaro ki ng\u0101 pakanga ka kitea he h\u014Dtaka M\u0101ori p\u0113nei i a Koha, i a Te Karere, i a Waka Huia. Kai te ora tonu \u0113nei kaum\u0101tua o Te Ao M\u0101ori. Ka pu\u0101wai ng\u0101 mahi p\u0101oho M\u0101ori i ng\u0101 tau a waru tekau e r\u0101tau, n\u0101 te aranga mai o ng\u0101 teihana irirangi M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EHe h\u012Btori t\u0113nei ki a t\u0101tau e p\u0101 ana ki te hangarau m\u014D t\u014D t\u0101tau Reo Ma\u014Dri. K\u0101re e kore, kai te maumahara \u0113tahi mema o te Whare nei ki ng\u0101 k\u0113hi me te p\u0101oho M\u0101ori ki mua o Te R\u014Dp\u016B Whakamana i te Tiriti o Waitangi, me ng\u0101 Kooti. Ka whai hua ng\u0101 mahi nei i te Haratua o 2003, i te whakaturetanga o te ture m\u014D Whakaata M\u0101ori. N\u0101, haere tonu, haere tonu, ng\u0101 mahi ka pu\u0101wai. Ko ng\u0101 mahi hai whakapiki i Te Reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga ki te iwi M\u0101ori me te motu wh\u0101nui, m\u014D t\u0101tau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EK\u0101re te pire nei e tino whakarerek\u0113 i ng\u0101 ritenga m\u014D Whakaata M\u0101ori, ka whakanikoniko k\u0113 i te ture matua, ar\u0101, ko Te Ture m\u014D Whakaata M\u0101ori. Ka riro m\u0101 te pire e whakakaha te aro o Whakaata M\u0101ori ki \u0101na mahi hei whakapiki i Te Reo M\u0101ori. Kua whakatakotoria he tikanga h\u014Du m\u014D te whakahaere i te ara t\u016B\u0101tea, kia tukuna m\u014D ng\u0101 mahi p\u0101oho M\u0101ori. Ka riro m\u0101 te taha M\u0101ori, m\u0101 Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho e pupuri te ara t\u016B\u0101tea, \u0101, m\u0101na e tuku raihana ki a Whakaata M\u0101ori, m\u014D \u0101na h\u014Dtaka o n\u0101ianei, o anamata an\u014D hoki. Ka whakaritea mai, he tikanga arotake i t\u0113nei ture \u0101 muri ake nei, \u0101, ka whakamana i \u0113tahi paku rerek\u0113tanga ki roto i ng\u0101 whakahaere a Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, me Whakaata M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EKo t\u0113tahi tikanga nui i ng\u0101 \u0101menamana nei, he whakarite i a Whakaata M\u0101ori m\u014D te huri ki te tikanga p\u0101oho mamati, ar\u0101 digital. Ka oti ng\u0101 mahi a te huri mamati hai te kotahi o Hakihea 2013. Koia nei t\u0101tau, ng\u0101 take me p\u0101hi i t\u0113nei pire, i t\u0113nei tau tonu nei. Koin\u0101 au e mihi atu ki a koutou m\u014D ng\u0101 tautoko i t\u0113nei w\u0101. I te t\u012Bmatatanga t\u0113tahi arotake i te Ture m\u014D Whakaata i te tau 2008 n\u0101 runga i te whakahau a section 56 o taua ture. N\u0101 ng\u0101 Minita o taua w\u0101, a T\u0101 Michael Cullen r\u0101ua ko Parekura Horomia, me te heamana o Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho a T\u016Bwhakairiora Williams, i whakat\u016B t\u0113tahi k\u0101hui arotake ki te tirotiro i te ture. Heoi an\u014D e hoa, e te marae o Ng\u0101hiwi Parekura, kai te tangi tonu, kai te mihi tonu m\u014D \u0113nei mahi n\u0101hau i mahi, n\u0101hau i k\u014Dkiri i roto i ng\u0101 tau. Ko te k\u0101hui arotake nei, ko Tainui Stephens, ko Jane H\u016Bria r\u0101tau ko Hone Edwards. Ka oti t\u0101 r\u0101tau p\u016Brongo i te tau 2009, ka whakatakotoria ki t\u0113nei whare. N\u014D muri mai, ka whakatau te k\u0101wanatanga ki te whakanikoniko i te ture m\u014D Whakaata M\u0101ori, \u0101, ka tau mai t\u0113nei pire ki te Whare i te Here-turi-k\u014Dk\u0101 te tau 2012, \u0101, he ota kaunihera. N\u0101u t\u0113nei p\u0101tai m\u014D te Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EKa oti k\u0113 taku whakam\u014Dhio i te Whare nei m\u014D ng\u0101 whakarerek\u0113tanga ki te hunga e whai w\u0101hi ana i Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho. Kua rihaina te National M\u0101ori Congress me Kawea Te Rongo i Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho, n\u0101 runga i ng\u0101 tikanga o section 14 o te ture m\u014D Whakaata M\u0101ori. Kei te k\u014Dkiri au i t\u0113tahi Ota Kaunihera (Order-in-Council) ki te whakaoti i ng\u0101 r\u012Bhainatanga nei. Kei te haere pai t\u0113nei kaupapa, kei te Governor-General i t\u0113nei w\u0101 m\u0101na e tautoko ana. M\u0113n\u0101 tautoko ana, an\u0101 kua oti. N\u0101 reira, me mihi an\u014D ki te komiti m\u014D te take M\u0101ori, ka tika. Hai Te M\u0101ngai, ka riro m\u0101 t\u0113nei pire a Whakaata M\u0101ori e whakarite m\u014D te huringa mamati. Ko te w\u0101hanga h\u014Du t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D te whai w\u0101hi a Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori ki ng\u0101 hangarau p\u0101oho mai i ng\u0101 niupepa Reo M\u0101ori a ng\u0101 t\u012Bpuna. Kua tae mai nei te ao e p\u0101ohotia mamatitia Te Reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[I will be speaking in M\u0101ori. I acknowledge this bill\u2019s achievements in making it to its third reading. The third reading will embellish this vessel, the M\u0101ori Television Service, in respect of recent findings. It should be noted that it is in good shape and that those who manage it, the paddlers, are sturdy and leading the navigators to its long-term goal, that being the well-being of the M\u0101ori language. The embellishment of the vessel is the function of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe vessel is not a new one. Fashioning it has taken a while and the paddling has gone on for 10 years. I commend the fashioners and paddlers, some of whom have passed on to the place out of sight, the world of the gods and spirits, such as the Hon Parekura Horomia. Our tribute to them is to raise the paddles of this vessel aloft. At times the sea has been mountainous but the rowing continued. At times it has been calm. Fellow colleagues, my word to you at this point in time is to keep rowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EGreetings to us. M\u0101oridom have had an inclination towards broadcasting technology for a very long time. Following the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi the first newspaper in M\u0101ori was published. M\u0101oridom really picked this up, and between 1842 and 1930 there were more than 40 newspapers in M\u0101ori. When the new technology arrived, our ancestors elevated it, with the arrival also of words like \u201Cwaea\u201D and \u201Cterewhonu\u201D into the M\u0101ori language. In the 1930s it was left to Sir Apirana Ngata to make the first long-distance call from this country by New Zealand to Australia. His first words were in M\u0101ori. Eventually we arrive at this moment of television to recall and ponder over the conflicts witnessed, before M\u0101ori programmes like Koha, Te Karere, and Waka Huia were found. These elders of M\u0101oridom who were involved are still alive today. As a consequence of them, M\u0101ori broadcasting functions came to fruition in the 1980s because of the rise of M\u0101ori radio stations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn terms of technology and our M\u0101ori language, this is historical for us. Without a doubt some members of this House are recalling the cases on M\u0101ori broadcasting that went before the Waitangi Tribunal and the courts. The M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Act in May 2003 was the outcome of the cases before those courts. And so, the work continued and blossomed. The work related to promoting the M\u0101ori language and its customs to the M\u0101ori people and to the nation at large on our behalf. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe bill does not alter the provisions for M\u0101ori Television significantly, but, rather, it enhances the principal Act of 2003 instead. The bill will strengthen the focus of M\u0101ori Television on its work to promote the M\u0101ori language. A new procedure about the management of the spectrum is being proposed for activities relating to M\u0101ori broadcasting. The M\u0101ori component, Te P\u016Btahi Paoho, will hold the spectrum and issue licences to M\u0101ori Television for its current programmes and for those thereafter. It will consider a subsequent review protocol in this legislation, and it will effect some minor administrative changes for Te P\u016Btahi Paoho and M\u0101ori Television. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EA significant change in these amendments is the consideration that M\u0101ori Television will change the method of broadcasting to digital. The transfer to digital will be completed on 1 December 2013. These are matters that must be passed right now in this bill, in this year. This is why I am complimenting you for your support at this point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAt the beginning was a review of the Broadcasting Act of 2008, pursuant to section 56 of that Act. Ministers at that time Sir Michael Cullen and Parekura Horomia, with the chairman of Te P\u016Btahi Paoho, T\u016Bwhakairiora Williams, established a review panel to examine the Act. And so, dear friend Parekura, we continue to mourn your passing and to acknowledge these tasks you dealt with over the years. The review panel consisted of Tainui Stephens, Jane H\u016Bria, and Hone Edwards. Their report was completed in 2009 and was presented to Parliament. Afterwards the Government decided to enhance the Act for M\u0101ori Television, and this bill came before the House in August 2012 as an Order in Council. You sought for this Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI have already informed this House about the changes to those that have an interest in Te P\u016Btahi Paoho. The National M\u0101ori Congress and Kawea Te Rongo have resigned from Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101oho under section 14 of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Act. I am dealing with an Order in Council to complete these resignations. This matter is progressing well and it is with the Governor-General, currently awaiting his approval. If he approves it, then it is done. So it is fitting indeed that I acknowledge the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. This bill will enable the M\u0101ori Television Service to make the digital switch-over happen. This is the new part of this conversation about M\u0101oridom\u2019s participation in the technologies of broadcasting from the newspapers in M\u0101ori of the ancestral forefathers. This world of broadcasting the M\u0101ori language digitally has arrived.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe have come from a newspaper in Te Reo M\u0101ori to, now, digitisation of Te Reo M\u0101ori. Kai te h\u012Bkaka katoa ahau. I am really, really over the moon about this. Ki ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga o te ao hangarau nei. M\u0101ori m\u0101, kia kaha t\u0101 t\u0101tau ruku atu ki te hangarau p\u0101oho, e hua mai, e hua mai. N\u014D reira, huri noa i t\u0113nei Whare whakapiringa tangata, ka mihi kau atu ki ng\u0101 mana n\u014D tuawhakarere, \u0101, ki a t\u0101tau i konei i t\u0113nei r\u0101. N\u0101 reira, huri noa t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau katoa, \u0101, kei Te M\u0101ngai kei raro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[To the nuances of this world of technology, M\u0101ori, we must be strong and dive into technology broadcasting. Results will come to bear\u2014results will come to bear. Therefore, I salute the pioneers from the past and us here today, throughout the House of the people. And so, greetings to you, to us, and to everyone throughout. I resume my seat.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c62d752561c841b687577fbfc08f0722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c62d752561c841b687577fbfc08f0722\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs for his speech. Thank you to the Minister for his engagement during the debate on this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. Tonight it feels as if there has truly been a debate with some meaning in this House on a piece of legislation that, actually, we are in agreement on, because Labour supports this bill. As I think everyone will have noticed, we have reservations. But actually having a real debate where the questions are asked and there is an attempt to engage and to answer them is what this Parliament should be doing on every single piece of legislation where there are questions and where there is genuine debate and genuine engagement from the other side of the House. So I would like to make that point, because I think it is an important point and I do hope that there are members listening and taking note of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThere is too much debate, too much superficial debate, in this Parliament on important pieces of legislation where the other side of the House refuses to engage because it wants to push a piece of legislation through. So all credit to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who has genuinely attempted to answer some of the questions that have been raised. Even if those answers are not necessarily as fulsome as we would like, they have been genuine attempts, and we acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI do want to again make mention of the importance of M\u0101ori Television to our country and as a great example of what can be done in the area of public broadcasting. M\u0101ori Television has become, as has been noted by a number of people tonight, the default public television broadcaster in New Zealand. However, it does not have the mandate to be a full public television broadcaster. It does not have the funding to be a full public television broadcaster. Because of the absence\u2014because there is a gap\u2014of public television in this country, it has ably attempted to fulfil that, although its primary mandate is around the promotion of Te Reo and the importance of Te Reo in New Zealand, and we absolutely applaud that and support it. Again, tonight I want to acknowledge the work done by Parekura Horomia in helping to set up M\u0101ori Television, and his vision lives on and, hopefully, will live on for many decades to come through this broadcaster. On that, going to the appointment process\u2014the important appointment process\u2014of a new chief executive, which has taken up much time in the debate tonight, we on this side of the House are watching very closely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI think that there is a will in New Zealand for M\u0101ori Television to lead the way, and to do that it must be above all question and must not have any shadows hanging over it in terms of how it is being run and the governance structures and the way that those decisions are being made. I certainly think those points have been made well tonight, and I certainly think that the Minister has been listening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the work done in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee by all members of the select committee, and in particular by my colleagues Shane Jones; Parekura, before he passed away; Nanaia Mahuta; and Rino Tirikatene. They were all members on that committee and they have all contributed today in the House on this issue. Also, I note a number of the issues were raised, and my colleague Kris Faafoi has been very vigorously debating the issues around the spectrum, its management, and how it is going to be used. Those issues that were raised in the select committee must also remain on the record, and that is the composition and the governance of the electoral college Te P\u016Btahi Paoho, and how that is working out. I think that certainly tonight there has been constructive discussion around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt feels as if there is constructive movement towards resolving some of those issues, but I certainly want to make sure that the House knows how that plays out. How those management and governance arrangements play out will certainly be being watched very closely in the future, in respect of not only the general management of M\u0101ori Television but also the management of that spectrum, because our concern is that there are other plans, or there may be other plans. I have heard what the Minister said tonight around the future use of that spectrum, around lifting the bar, and around quality as well as quantity of programming on M\u0101ori Television. But we certainly are concerned that there may be other plans for that that may impinge on the ability of M\u0101ori Television to develop in the way that it could and should in our country in the next 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo that issue remains, as does another issue, which is a critical issue and a wider issue, because it goes to the Government\u2019s management of spectrum generally, right across the board. This is a very topical issue at the moment, because if we are going to embrace the digital environment, both in broadcasting and across into the mobile technology space, then we have to have a consistent, logical plan that has the interests of New Zealanders at its heart and is about a true competitive environment in the mobile technology space and in the broadcasting space. It is about the ability for all New Zealanders to access television services and to receive a high-quality public broadcasting service through their taxpayer-funded money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, though, at the moment we do not have that. We do not have a strategy. We do not have a plan. It is all very ad hoc, and we saw yesterday the Minister for Communications and Information Technology, Amy Adams, make an announcement that she was going to undertake to put out the remaining spectrum in the 700 megahertz band, which is the information and communications technology side of it, the mobile technology side of it, which could have been and should have been held back for strategic purposes. Oh, no\u2014in order to make a quick buck, because that is where the Government is at, it is going to be put out to the highest bidder through auction. What we could end up with, and what we are likely to end up with, is an environment that is not as competitive as it could and should be, and where there is likely to be movement towards that 1990s approach, to a monopoly in an important growth market for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThen we also have, as has been mentioned by me and Kris Faafoi, the hand-back\u2014the interesting and somewhat inexplicable last-minute hand-back\u2014of an important body of the spectrum by Sky TV in the broadcasting environment to the Crown, with no idea and no public discussion about why, what deal was done around that, how it is going to be used, whether some of it is going to be kept aside for the public arena, or whether it is going to be hocked off as well. These are important questions. They go to the Government\u2019s ability to manage an important market. This is a market and an environment that crosses broadcasting and telecommunications space. It is called convergence, in case the members on that side still have not woken up to the fact that that has already happened and that there should be a strategy in place. Unfortunately, there is not, and these things are being managed in a very ad hoc way. Government members are really hanging their heads a bit at the moment because, to be honest, none of them could get up and give a speech on this topic. That is what is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe support this bill, but we have reservations about it. We will be watching the governance processes very closely, we will be watching the appointment process for the new chief executive very closely, and we will certainly be providing a comprehensive strategy for the management of these important parts of our economy and our broadcasting environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9be9e58a3a3497198875abc041b4cd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9be9e58a3a3497198875abc041b4cd2\u0022\u003ECLAUDETTE HAUITI (National):\u003C/span\u003E At this time I would like to acknowledge and thank Sir Graham Latimer, who was the driver behind the M\u0101ori Language Act, which established the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Act, which we are now talking about amending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed550fc2-879f-4560-affa-d35858308ad4\u0022\u003EThis bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill, is about the protection and promotion of te reo me \u014Dna tikanga. This is not a bill about the spectrum. This is not a bill about being a public broadcaster. This is about the promotion and the protection of Te Reo via a free-to-air digital terrestrial television network. I thank my colleagues across the House for recommending and commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022e935aacc76fb4280beae6862ee0be1ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e935aacc76fb4280beae6862ee0be1ee\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak in the third and final reading of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. Someone earlier on in this debate mentioned the word \u201Ctaonga\u201D. The translation of that word in to English is treasure. The previous speaker, Claudette Hauiti, thanked Sir Graham Latimer, and I also want to pay tribute to a former colleague, Parekura Horomia, because this is one of the treasures that Pare left us. I think that, from what I have seen from the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs at the Committee stage, when he was in the chair, and in his third and second reading speeches, he absolutely understands that the M\u0101ori Television Service, or Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori, is a treasure. The notion of treasure\u2014and the translation of the word to treasure\u2014in M\u0101ori is, I think, more than just something of worth and value. It is also something that has to be respected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think that although this bill does deal with the spectrum, the increase in the use of Te Reo, and getting more coverage of M\u0101ori issues and the culture to M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, there are some issues within this bill that we have concerns about. I would like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister, because I thought he went some way to addressing a lot of the concerns that we have. We do still have some concerns as to how that may play out\u2014certainly where it pertains to the spectrum\u2014but there have been some other issues at M\u0101ori Television recently that have concerned us, in particular around the process of the appointment of the chief executive role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI wanted to take some time to talk about the concept of taonga, because the M\u0101ori Television Service, with the hard graft of many people, has the very important job of protecting the language. It is not the only avenue that this Government funds and that previous Governments have funded to protect the indigenous language of M\u0101ori. We do not have that language anywhere else in the world, so to make sure that we have an avenue through which we can see and hear M\u0101ori voices and M\u0101ori people celebrating, educating, and, I must add, entertaining, is very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo the spirit of the place is different from that of any other public broadcaster that we have in New Zealand. Television New Zealand (TVNZ), a State-owned broadcaster, appeals to the masses, and it is not its remit to basically look after Te Reo or the M\u0101ori culture. That is the job of M\u0101ori Television, and it is a very special job. I think that we have seen some messy scenes in the process of the appointment of a chief executive. So what I would like to see is maybe some independence there in terms of a governance model to make sure that we do not have any ugly scenes\u2014whether it be from that side of the House or from this side of the House\u2014and to make sure that there is some independence at a governance level so we do not see this kind of thing happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ad395e5315f4494979db909af8dee95\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does TVNZ do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022909ca3c3ab104deda33e76add175580c\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not believe that it does. That was a response to Metiria Turei. But we cannot let a taonga have a dirty mark like this put on top of it. That is absolutely wrong. So I think that that is the challenge that I might put out to the Minister\u2014to make sure that it does not happen again and that we have some sort of separation from this place, to make sure that that kind of thing cannot happen again. I am not calling into question the people behind the decisions that get made, but in this case there seems to have been a close personal relationship with an individual who went for a job, and also an employment record, and then some criticism of questions that were asked on this side of the House. We do respect that the M\u0101ori Television Service is a very special broadcaster, that it is a treasure, and that we need to respect it as a taonga and make sure that these kinds of things and these issues do not happen again. So we respect that, and we need to make sure that that is respected as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn relation to the use of the spectrum\u2014because a large part of this bill is about the spectrum, contrary to other speeches that have been made in this House\u2014it is very important for the future of digital technology. The way that it can be used and utilised in the future means that what might be junk today could be very, very important when it turns into digital technology in the future. In effect, you can take an analog signal and turn it into eight digital signals. The ownership of that spectrum has been moved from the M\u0101ori Television Service to another entity, Te P\u016Btahi Paoho, and is going to be managed by it. I thank the Minister because when he was in the chair he said that the management of that will be taken with a view to making sure that in the future, if any of that spectrum is going to be utilised by anyone other than the M\u0101ori Television Service, we have been told by the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e0041becf304581867c94f3f517d8cf\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Like an old rerun of Coronation Street. Stop him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d4e4f1d79a497dac31183edb670e7e\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: You can go watch Coronation Street if you want. You are not making any contribution here. We have been told by the Minister that it will be very important to utilise it, especially for the use of M\u0101ori culture. So I would like to hope that that follows through, to ensure that it is utilised for the purpose for which it was originally given to the M\u0101ori Television Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAround the larger overview of the spectrum resource\u2014because the M\u0101ori Television Service is not the only entity that has had part of the spectrum allocated to it\u2014the Government\u2019s management has been at best haphazard, but it has got an opportunity to make good with the packet of spectrum that has just been given back by Sky. Clare Curran has spoken about the timing of that, but regardless of it, the Government now has four packets of the spectrum that it will have available to it, which it can either do nothing with, or can, as we have seen in the past, hock off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EBut what we on this side of the House would like is for the Government to ring-fence one of those packets of the digital spectrum, which can broadcast eight television stations, for any future use around public broadcasting or, potentially, regional broadcasting. It is very, very expensive at the moment for regional broadcasters to get themselves a piece of the spectrum action, but it is also going to be very expensive for any future Government that wants to start up a public service broadcaster if there is none of the spectrum available to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have seen what the Government has done in its commitment to public broadcasting over its 5-year tenure. It closed down TVNZ 7 and TVNZ 6. So given its track record over the last 5 years I do not hold out much hope for the Government taking a forward-looking approach to any broadcasting. In fact, it is a challenge to the Government that maybe if it did reserve some of the soon-to-be-available spectrum that has come across from Sky, it might have at least a passing interest in public broadcasting. So that is my challenge to the Government, to make sure that if it has any long-term vision for the spectrum\u2014[Bell rung] I just wanted to keep it going; Tim Macindoe is very happy\u2014it does square away and ring-fence the spectrum. But unfortunately I do not hold out much hope of the Government having a long-term vision around that spectrum or public broadcasting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EBut just to return to the bill and to wind up, this is an important bill for the future of the M\u0101ori Television Service. It is doing a very good job of meeting its objectives and making sure that it promotes, educates, and entertains to make sure that the M\u0101ori culture is promoted. It is unfortunate that there are some messy scenes at the governance level. I would hope that when the review comes back to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and the Minister of Finance, we look at another way to independently deal with these situations, so we do not have messes that do not deserve to be anywhere near the M\u0101ori Television Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00225719a8a2704e47f99f81eabaa976c254\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225719a8a2704e47f99f81eabaa976c254\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. The Green Party supports this legislation, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. We are very pleased that it has been brought to the House and is about to be passed. That is great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI want to make just a few comments before taking my seat again. One of them is to acknowledge again the role that M\u0101ori Television plays in the promotion of Te Reo M\u0101ori and tikanga M\u0101ori, and also the fantastic role it plays in connecting our communities together\u2014the P\u0101keh\u0101 community and the M\u0101ori community. It shows our own country and the world all of those stories about the reality of M\u0101ori lives and all the good stories about M\u0101ori lives that do not get shown anywhere else. It is a fantastic service that this station is doing for our country, for our relationships, and for the process of post-colonial issues that we are having to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI just want to issue a word of caution around some of the comments that have been made this evening. My question to my colleague Kris Faafoi about how Television New Zealand appoints its chief executive was a genuine one. I was not shouting just to be mean. It was a genuine question, because there is actually a bit of a fine line between even-handed regulatory oversight, for which this Parliament and its agents are responsible, and a kind of paternalistic approach to M\u0101ori organisations. M\u0101ori organisations have suffered paternalistic control and management by the State, by State agencies, and by Parliament for decade after decade after decade. That has tended to strangle the innovation and opportunities that M\u0101ori organisations at all kinds of different levels have, but at the same time there is public money that needs to be properly considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWhere there is public money going into any agency anywhere, there needs to be even-handed and proper regulatory oversight. From my point of view, I absolutely do not think that the structure that determines who the chief executive officer of M\u0101ori Television is should be any different from any other structure that is established for any other similar organisation. I think there is a real issue around the way that M\u0101ori organisations can often be treated. There are issues around the appointment of staffing or chief executive officers, and there are all sorts of issues that arise from time to time with any agency, any organisation, that receives public funding. Yes, the use of that funding should be questioned, but M\u0101ori organisations must not be treated in a way that exerts more control over them than any other organisation, and any attempt to do so is a furthering of the colonisation process. And when you are talking about something like M\u0101ori Television, which is operating to undo some of those negative impacts of colonisation, it undermines the whole effectiveness of that organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EHaving heard all of the k\u014Drero through the second reading, some of the Committee stage, and even tonight at the third reading, I really think that we need to be very cautious about how we treat M\u0101ori Television in this context. It is doing a great job. Every organisation is going to have its problems. Yes, it is right to question where there is public funding, but beyond that there must be absolute caution in making sure that that questioning is even-handed and careful so that M\u0101ori organisations are not treated differently from other organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EBeyond that, this is a great bill. It is great to see it passed. It is going to help M\u0101ori Television move into the digital age and expand in all sorts of innovative and fantastic ways, and we look forward to that future. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022651d8599de24484d9ce4cffa059449a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022651d8599de24484d9ce4cffa059449a3\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tau. E te Pika o te Whare t\u0113n\u0101 koe, e haut\u016B nei i a t\u0101tau i t\u0113nei p\u014D. Kua riro he 10 meneti te roa o t\u0113nei k\u014Drero m\u0101ku te katoa o t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101ima e whakapau, kia whai p\u016Bkenga ai \u014D t\u0101tau hoa ki t\u0113n\u0101 taha o te Whare i a r\u0101tau e \u0101mene ana i te kaupapa i roto i te pire nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EKo te pouaka whakaata, me \u0101ta whai taringa mai r\u0101tou ki Te Reo M\u0101ori e k\u014Drerotia ana k\u0101tahi ka ngoto m\u0101rika, ki roto i \u014D r\u0101tau hinengaro, ki roto i \u014D r\u0101tau ng\u0101kau, wairua o Te Reo M\u0101ori e k\u014Drerongia ake nei he taonga mai i \u014D t\u0101tau m\u0101tua hei k\u014Drerotanga m\u0101 t\u0113nei reanga hei tukunga m\u0101 m\u0101tau ki ng\u0101 tamariki, ki Aotearoa wh\u0101nui. T\u0113nei m\u0101tau te tautoko i te pire nei. Ahakoa \u014Dku k\u014Drero horekau he tautoko ki te Minita, me h\u0101ngai tonu ki te kaupapa o te pire ko te reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga. Me wewete i ng\u0101 take o te Minita ki te taha, me h\u0101ngai tonu ki ng\u0101 take i whakakorikoringia ai \u014D t\u0101tau m\u0101tua i te tuatahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EN\u0101 hoki \u014Dku whakaaro ki te matua nei ki a T\u0101 H\u0113mi\u2014ki a H\u0113mi Tau. Ka hoki mai ai t\u0113n\u0101 kaum\u0101tua i te Pakanga Tuarua. N\u0101na i arataki mai i ng\u0101 h\u014Dia o te Hokowhitu a T\u016B. Ka makere mai i te kaipuke, n\u0101 r\u0101tau i whakahoki mai ki Aotearoa. Ka hoki ki te k\u0101inga. N\u0101, ka puea ake te wairua, te moemoe\u0101, kia p\u016Bmau Te Reo M\u0101ori i waenga tonu i \u0101na tamariki, w\u0101na mokopuna, w\u0101na hap\u016B i roto i Te Tai Tokerau. Tahi ka piri atu ki \u0113tahi atu o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua. N\u0101na i roto i te r\u012Bpoata nei Te K\u0101hui o M\u0101hutonga t\u0113tahi waiata i waiho hei k\u014Drerotanga, hei whakamihi m\u0101 m\u0101tau m\u014D Te Reo M\u0101ori. N\u0101 reira tika tonu me mihi atu t\u0101tau ki \u0113n\u0101 kaum\u0101tua. \u0112tahi atu ko Charles Mohi, ko ng\u0101 tu\u0101kana, ng\u0101 t\u0113ina o te wh\u0101nau o ng\u0101 Huata, \u0113tahi atu ko te kaum\u0101tua T\u016Bwh\u0101ngai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EE mahara ana ahau ki te p\u012Bki hui i t\u016B ki roto i Waiwhet\u016B. Ko te tau 1980. N\u0101 i t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101, ko te tangata nei a Kara Puketapu i te haut\u016B i te tari M\u0101ori. N\u0101na te p\u016Btea i te w\u0101 i a Ben Couch, n\u0101na te p\u016Btea i rauh\u012B kia t\u016B ai t\u0113n\u0101 hui. Ka puta mai ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua katoa. K\u0101tahi ka t\u016B mai t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua o Whanganui, ka tautoko i te kaupapa nei kia whakat\u014Dngia he purapura m\u014D Te Reo M\u0101ori. Ko t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 kaiwhakahaere o t\u0113n\u0101 hui ko Ruka Broughton. Ko ia t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 p\u016Bkenga o te ao M\u0101ori i awhi wawe i roto i a m\u0101tau i te noho ki P\u014Dneke i t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101, kia whakawhiwhia tonutia Te Reo M\u0101ori i mua i te tukunga mai o te p\u016Btea kia t\u016B ai ng\u0101 k\u014Dhanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EN\u0101 \u0113tahi atu kaum\u0101tua te hia noa atu \u0113ngari, ko t\u0113tahi wahine i reira n\u0101na ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua i t\u0113r\u0101 p\u014D me ng\u0101 kuikuia i whakam\u0101tautau, i whakataratara. Ko te wahine nei a Iritana T\u0101whiwhirangi. I m\u014Dhio t\u0101tau i a t\u0101tau e k\u014Drero ana m\u014D ng\u0101 take m\u014D Te Reo M\u0101ori, ar\u0101 noa atu te toenga o te kapa whaea, kapa matua o t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101 e toe tonu ana n\u0101 r\u0101tau t\u0113nei waka i whakarite hei hari i ng\u0101 moemoe\u0101 o t\u014D t\u0101tau iwi. N\u0101 reira i a t\u0101tau e mihi ana ki te pire, e mihi ana ki te kaupapa, kaua t\u0101tau e wareware ki te hunga kua whet\u016Brangitia. \u0112tahi \u014D r\u0101tau e toe ana hei m\u014Drehu, hei mihinga, m\u0101 t\u0101tau \u014D roto i te Whare nei, ka mutu, ko ng\u0101 ingoa o ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B kua whakaritea hei noho ki Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101ho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAhau e tautoko ana i te kaupapa nei. Waiho ko t\u0113tahi k\u0113wai o te kete, taukawe o te kete, e pupuru ko ng\u0101 r\u014Dpu kei t\u014D t\u0101tau ao M\u0101ori. Horekau \u014Dku k\u014Drero m\u014D r\u0101tau i a r\u0101tau e whakarite ana me p\u0113hea te whakahaere. M\u0101 r\u0101tau an\u014D t\u0113n\u0101 e whakatat\u016B t\u0101 te mea, ko ng\u0101 kanohi o te ao M\u0101ori e tau ana ki runga i a r\u0101tau. He m\u014Dhio n\u014Dku, ehara r\u0101tau i te iwi k\u016Bare me p\u0113hea r\u0101nei t\u0113nei taonga e poipoia ai, e whakakonihi ai hei taonga kia ranea ake te aroha kei \u0101 t\u0101tau tamariki mokopuna ki t\u014D t\u0101tau Reo M\u0101ori. N\u0101 reira ko t\u0101ku he tautoko. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EKo t\u0101ku ki te Minita, me rapu t\u0113tahi w\u0101hi p\u016Btea pea me whakawhiwhi atu ki \u0113tahi \u0101piha pea hei \u0101whina atu i a r\u0101tau e mahi ng\u0101tahi me te Karauna. I te tuatahi, i te ohooho ahau e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, ka riro ko r\u0101tau hei rangatira m\u014D ng\u0101 taonga e karangahia nei he iarere \u0113ngari, kua tat\u016B taku ng\u0101kau in\u0101ianei me taku m\u014Dhio horekau \u014Dku hoa i rata mai ki \u0113n\u0101 whakah\u0113 \u014Dku, k\u0101tahi au ka tuku ki raro. \u0112ngari, ko te mahi hei k\u014Drerotanga i t\u0113nei p\u014D, kia kaha t\u0101tau te whakaaro mai, i a koutou e noho ana ng\u0101 Minita, kia whai huruhuru ai r\u0101tau ki te whakatutuki i ng\u0101 mahi i roto i te pire whakaarongia ana hei mahi m\u0101 r\u0101tau. Ka mutu, ko \u0113nei take m\u014D te \u0101huatanga o t\u014D t\u0101tau Reo. Kaua t\u0101tau e te Whare, e waiho m\u014D t\u0113nei taonga ko pouaka whakaata anakenake hei whakapu\u0101wai i ng\u0101 moemoe\u0101 kei t\u0113n\u0101 hap\u016B, kei t\u0113n\u0101 iwi, ka mutu, ko te motu wh\u0101nui. Waiho t\u0113n\u0101 take hei amonga m\u0101 t\u0101tau katoa. Kia kaua rawa atu Te Reo e whakangoikorengia i roto i ng\u0101 kura. Kia kaua rawa atu Te Reo e whakatahangia i a t\u0101tau e rapu nei me p\u0113hea r\u0101nei ng\u0101 manuhiri o r\u0101w\u0101hi e whakataungia ai. Me p\u0113hea r\u0101nei, ng\u0101 h\u0101kinakina papai o Aotearoa e wehea mai i Te Reo M\u0101ori. Koia t\u0101ku e tautoko nei i te kaupapa o ng\u0101 Kapa-\u014D-Pango, i a r\u0101tau e rapu nei me p\u0113hea r\u0101nei Te Reo M\u0101ori e k\u012Bnakitia ai ki ng\u0101 kaupapa \u0101-r\u0113hia, ki ng\u0101 kaupapa h\u0101kinakina e ng\u0101kaunuitia e te wh\u0101nuitanga o te motu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EKa mutu, Te Reo M\u0101ori i roto i t\u0113nei pire, e whakaarongia ana e kore Te Reo e tika ki te k\u0101hore ng\u0101 tikanga noki e tautokotia, ka mutu, ka waihotia he h\u014Dtaka, ka waihotia he pakip\u016Bmeka, hei hari, hei h\u0101pai i ng\u0101 tikanga n\u014Dki. Ka mutu, te hunga ka tino whiwhi in\u0101 oti i roto i \u0113nei mahi h\u014Du, me k\u012B, e whakaarongia ana i roto i te pire nei, ko \u0101 t\u0101tau tamariki \u0113ngari, ko \u0101 t\u0101tau hoa P\u0101keh\u0101 an\u014D hoki me ng\u0101 huanga mai i ng\u0101 motu o Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa. T\u0101ku e \u012Bnoi ake nei ki a t\u0101tau, whakaarongia t\u0113tahi tauira ka riro ko Te Reo M\u0101ori hei k\u014Drerotanga m\u0101 m\u0101tau te iwi M\u0101ori, otir\u0101, hei whakarangatira, hei whakamihinga, hei whakam\u012Bharo m\u0101 Aotearoa katoa. N\u0101 kia t\u016B ng\u0101 kaupapa whakatau i roto i ng\u0101 kura, kaua e whakatahangia i Te Reo M\u0101ori. Kia t\u016B ng\u0101 kaupapa kei ng\u0101 kaunihera takiw\u0101, kei ng\u0101 kaunihera, kei ng\u0101 rohe, kei ng\u0101 koromatua tukua Te Reo M\u0101ori kia rite ki te raukura, kia rangatira ai ng\u0101 ritenga me ng\u0101 tikanga i roto i ng\u0101 kaunihera. \u0112nei mea katoa e oti m\u0101 roto i te pire nei, m\u0101ku ki a t\u0101tau, \u0113nei mea katoa ka oti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EKa mutu e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0101 m\u0101tau i p\u014Duri, t\u0101 m\u0101tau hoki i m\u0101nakanaka ai, roa rawa te w\u0101 t\u0113nei take e t\u0101rewa ana. Ka nui noa atu te m\u0101nakonako o waenga tonu i a m\u0101tau e matatau nei ki Te Reo M\u0101ori, e \u012Bnoi nei ki Te Atua, ki te w\u0101hi ngaro kia whakawhiwhia Te Reo M\u0101ori ki a m\u0101tau tamariki, mokopuna \u0113ngari, me h\u0101ngai. Kaua rawa \u0113nei take e waiho kia whakat\u0101rewatia. Ki te t\u0101rewa m\u0101rika, m\u0101ku ki a t\u0101tau, ko ng\u0101 kaiamo, ko ng\u0101 kaitautoko, k\u0101tahi ka manawa kore, k\u0101tahi r\u0101tau ka ngoikore haere. N\u0101 koia t\u0101ku e mea ake nei ki te Minita, kia kaha te tautoko h\u0101unga an\u014D i a Pouaka M\u0101ori \u0113ngari, ko ng\u0101 irirangi M\u0101ori an\u014D hoki. Ar\u0101 noa atu te m\u0101ra hei whakatupu i ng\u0101 m\u0101huri \u0101p\u014Dp\u014D, ka rite r\u0101tau hei pupuru i ng\u0101 t\u016Branga teitei kei t\u0113nei Pouaka M\u0101ori, me k\u012B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EKaua e waiho ko t\u0113neki anake hei titiro m\u0101 t\u0101tau i a t\u0101tau e whiriwhiri me p\u0113hea r\u0101nei Te Reo M\u0101ori e whakapakaringia \u0113ngari, tirohia an\u014D hoki ng\u0101 irirangi, tirohia an\u014D hoki ng\u0101 k\u014Dhanga. E kore au e k\u014Drero k\u014Dhanga ki te aroaro o te Minita he m\u014Dhio n\u014Dku \u0101hua wera tonu ana t\u0113n\u0101 take m\u0101na me Hekia Parata m\u0101, e rapu me p\u0113hea r\u0101nei he rongo\u0101 ka kitea kia kaua rawa atu ng\u0101 kinonga o te poari whakahaere e m\u0101turuturu ki waenga tonu ia k\u014Dhanga, ia k\u014Dhanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, e Te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113nei m\u0101tau i te tautoko, te mihi atu ki te Minita ahakoa \u0101hua k\u0101rawarawa tana tuar\u0101 i ahau i mua, e pai ana. He kait\u014Drangap\u016B ahau t\u016B mai t\u016B atu. Horekau \u014Dku raruraru kia puta i a au he k\u014Drero, ka whakautua t\u0113n\u0101 k\u014Drero ki ahau. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113nei m\u0101tau te tautoko, kia ora t\u0101tau katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us once again. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker of the House, as you lead us here this evening. This address will take 10 minutes, and I will use up the whole time so that our colleagues on the other side of the House can acquire new skills as they endorse the gist of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe television audience must listen intently to the M\u0101ori language being spoken and then impress it implicitly in their minds, feelings, and in the spirit of the M\u0101ori language used here as being a treasure from our ancestors for this generation to speculate over, and as something from us to the children and the whole of the country. We support this bill. Despite my comments that I do not support the Minister, I must remain focused on the essence of this bill, which is the M\u0101ori language and its customs. We must disengage from the matters for the Minister and leave them to one side, and remain focused on the matters that our ancestors were negotiating in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EMy thoughts go back to this elder Sir H\u0113mi\u2014H\u0113mi Tau. That elder returned from the Second World War with the soldiers of the M\u0101ori Battalion. He disembarked the ship that brought them back to New Zealand and returned home. It was then that the dream manifested for the M\u0101ori language to be fixed permanently within his children, grandchildren, and his subtribes in Northland. Then he consulted other fathers. He left a song in this report of Te K\u0101hui o M\u0101hutonga for us to talk about the M\u0101ori language and to celebrate it. Therefore, it is only right that we salute those elders. Others were Charles Mohi, elder and younger siblings of the Huata family, and H\u0113nare T\u016Bwh\u0101ngai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI recall a huge seminar that was held at Waiwhet\u016B Marae in the 1980s. This person Kara Puketapu was the Secretary of the M\u0101ori Affairs department at the time. He put together the funding required for that seminar in Ben Couch\u2019s time. All elders attended. One of the chiefs from Whanganui then stood up and endorsed this proposal about the M\u0101ori language, and the seed was sown. Ruka Broughton, one of the convenors of that seminar, an expert in M\u0101oridom and of the M\u0101ori language, who was living amongst us in Wellington at the time, quickly embraced the proposal that the M\u0101ori language be made available immediately, even before funding to establish language nests had been allocated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow there were other elders, a huge number of them, but there was this one particular woman present with other elderly women who tested and challenged the elders that night. This woman was Iritana T\u0101whiwhirangi. In our discussions about matters pertaining to the M\u0101ori language, we must recognise the fact that there are still teams of remaining mothers and fathers of that era left who considered that this would be the vessel to carry the dreams of our people. So while we are paying a tribute to the bill and the proposal, we must never forget those who have passed away. Some of them remain as survivors to be acknowledged by us in this House, and, furthermore, as names for the organisations considered to sit on Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101ho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFor me personally, I support this proposal and leave our M\u0101ori organisations to hold one handle of the flax basket as they ponder over how Te P\u016Btahi P\u0101ho should operate. I have nothing to say to them. They will have to make those determinations for themselves, as they are accountable to M\u0101oridom. I know for a fact that M\u0101oridom is not ignorant in terms of how this treasure should be nurtured and treated with a great deal of stealth, so that the love that our children and grandchildren have for our M\u0101ori language will well up in abundance. So my part is to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI urge the Minister to provide a portion, perhaps, of the funding for officials to perhaps help them work collaboratively with the Crown. At first I was wary, Mr Assistant Speaker of the House, that they would end up being the owners of property called spectrum, but I am satisfied now, knowing that some colleagues of mine were not too pleased with my opposing views, so I sat down. But what we should be doing this evening while seated is to work hard to come up with strategies so that Ministers have the tools to work with to fulfil the tasks in the bill under consideration. Furthermore, these matters relate to the state of our language. We the House must never allow this property, the television set, to be the sole means of bringing the dreams of that subtribe, tribe, and nation to fruition. We should all bear that responsibility. The M\u0101ori language must never be weakened in the schools and put to one side while we contemplate how visitors from overseas are to be welcomed, or, for that matter, how top sports in New Zealand can be extricated from the M\u0101ori language. That is why I support the All Blacks\u2019 philosophy as they seek ways to embellish well-liked pleasure and sports pursuits at a national level with the M\u0101ori language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs well as that, the M\u0101ori language being considered in this bill would not be appropriate without its supporting customs too, and, what is more, it is left to a programme, a documentary, to bear and take up the role of customs. As well, the ones who will really benefit from these new applications being considered in this bill will not only be our children but also our non-M\u0101ori friends and Pacific Island relations. My plea to us all is to consider a model where the M\u0101ori language is left for us, the M\u0101ori people, to articulate, treat with dignity, eulogise, and admire for the whole of New Zealand. So when there is a welcome ceremony in schools, the M\u0101ori language is not parked up on the side. When it comes to ceremonies at local government, council, regional, and mayoral levels, allow the M\u0101ori language and its customs to prevail just like a plume, a treasure, so that council proceedings and protocols are conducted with dignity. I assure you that all these things can be accomplished in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBeyond that, Mr Assistant Speaker of the House, we were disappointed and anxious too about the length of time this matter has been hanging around unresolved. There is much desire among us, the ones fluent in the M\u0101ori language, to have it made available to our children and grandchildren, and we pray to God and the place out of sight that this happens. But it must be relevant. These matters should never be suspended and left unresolved. If this is a deliberate ploy, then bearers and supporters will become disheartened and listless. That is what I was alluding to when I said the Minister should work hard to provide support not only to M\u0101ori Television but also to M\u0101ori radio. There are many plantations where saplings for tomorrow are planted so that their like can fill high positions at this M\u0101ori Television, shall we say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe should not focus on this alone as we consider how to strengthen the M\u0101ori language, but should examine the situation relating to radio and language nests, as well. I will not mention language nests in front of the Minister, because I know that is still a somewhat hot topic for him, H\u0113kia Parata, and others as they continue to look for a remedy to ensure that problems at Te K\u014Dhanga Reo National Trust will not trickle down directly to each and every language nest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnd so, Mr Assistant Speaker, we do support the bill and congratulate the Minister, even though I inflicted some welts on his back in the past, but that is fine. I am a politician through and through. I do not have any problems with expressing a view and the response that is made to me. So we do endorse this, and greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00224426b818280346e98dd273904898de3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224426b818280346e98dd273904898de3f\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. I support the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee worked hard on this bill. We considered all the issues in detail, and we believe that this bill will empower and enhance the Maori Television Service and allow M\u0101ori Television to better protect M\u0101ori language and culture for the long term. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3f237b8fe0247ceaf7059521a557904\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3f237b8fe0247ceaf7059521a557904\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am very pleased to stand in support of this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. We can celebrate 25 years of the M\u0101ori language being an official language. We now have 27 iwi radio stations broadcasting on 68 frequencies, promoting M\u0101ori language and culture. I am very pleased to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u00225cadd01582f544ccb49431e5ae78edab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cadd01582f544ccb49431e5ae78edab\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou i te Whare. I am very pleased to speak at this third reading of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. I would like to acknowledge the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and my honourable colleague Shane here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c55d17dfcb0472d9c75a44c981ffa74\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Full name\u2014full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d961a6d8e64fa2a05572b580e67806\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Mr Jones, Mr Jones\u2014for their contributions in Te Reo M\u0101ori, because that is really what this bill is about. Sure, there has been a long whakapapa to this particular bill, but the essence of it is the protection and promotion of Te Reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga. We have empowered the M\u0101ori Television Service through this bill to enter into the digital age. It is going to be exciting to see what the future holds in terms of the digital platforms and the different mediums by which we will be able to consume content from the M\u0101ori Television Service, but fundamentally it is about te reo me \u014Dna tikanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ESo, yes, this is a significant occasion. My thoughts go to the late Hon Parekura Horomia, the instigator, the champion, and the Minister in charge of the establishment of the M\u0101ori Television Service, who enshrined a review mechanism that has now led us to this review, coming up to the 10th anniversary of the M\u0101ori Television Service. So we acknowledge those who have passed, r\u0101tou ki a r\u0101tou, but t\u0101tou te hunga ora. We are delighted to usher in this new chapter for M\u0101ori Television and the clarified and sharpened functions for the service. But there is also the conferring of rights to Te P\u016Btahi Paoho, which will manage the spectrum that will be allocated, which will allow the M\u0101ori Television Service to broadcast through the 4G digital platform, in high definition\u2014yes, the wonders of modern broadcasting. So we commend this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EWe do support this bill. Sure, we have raised some concerns regarding the composition of Te P\u016Btahi Paoho. But I notice that there is one name and one organisation on here that I do acknowledge\u2014and I am so pleased that it is still there\u2014Ng\u0101 Kaiwhakap\u016Bmau i te Reo. I acknowledge the koroua kaum\u0101tua Huirangi Waikerepuru, who was, as I understand it, one of the original claimants before the Waitangi Tribunal. They also took a case all the way to the Privy Council to fight for the recognition that the Crown has an active obligation. That Privy Council case established that the Crown has an active duty to protect and promote Te Reo M\u0101ori. It is a legal obligation on the Crown, based on the Treaty. That rangatira, who is still on Te P\u016Btahi Paoho, is what this is all about. We need those elder statesmen and those kaum\u0101tua to be on those bodies in recognition of the contribution that they have made in fighting for our language, for its survival. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EIt is just wonderful that we can recognise those bodies and, I guess, we are looking forward to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs sharpening up the composition of Te P\u016Btahi Paoho. Sure, if there are some redundant organisations that have been withdrawn or are discontinuing, let us tidy that up\u2014you know, kei te pai\u2014and then let us get on with the mahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI do have one story, which has actually just come back to me. In a former life of mine, I suppose, a few years ago, I was a corporate lawyer\u2014in the mid to late 1990s. This was around the time when there were a lot of asset sales going on. There were the sales of Contact Energy and the Auckland International Airport, and we were doing some work for a very big corporate investment banking firm, whose people had flown in from overseas. We were talking with Treasury, and in those days, the sale of Television New Zealand (TVNZ) was very, very close to happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f69ed7037964796a0bd2e36f7822907\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: I tried\u2014I tried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f2dc8b837f43a28954f344bfb89751\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Lo and behold, it was that Minister opposite over there. So, it was very close to taking place. I was involved in that, and I had to give the advice to the investment bankers as to what the risks were and what was going to happen. The essence of my advice was that the Crown could not proceed with the sale at that time because it was too risky because of the legal obligations that the Crown had to M\u0101ori, particularly in terms of the protection of the M\u0101ori language. So, fortunately, yes, my advice was correct, because the Government did back down from the sale. It backed down because it did have a legal obligation. It took a Labour Government to actually fulfil the obligation under the Treaty that led to the creation of the M\u0101ori Television Service. So, here we are, nearly 10 years on, and the M\u0101ori Television Service is thriving. I certainly do hope that TVNZ is not on the radar of this Government for any potential future sale\u2014that is all I can say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EIn passing, can I get back to the core functions of the M\u0101ori Television Service. It is about the protection and promotion of Te Reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga, and I am looking forward to seeing more creative content. In particular, we have amended the functions of the Act to take into account the quality, the integrity, of Te Reo for native speakers\u2014first-language speakers\u2014as well. We may see the proliferation of more channels, or more avenues for content, for different audiences. We are seeing that with the Te Reo channel that it has already, and we might see further refinement. It might be particular iwi\u2014who knows? The future is definitely exciting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI do look forward to seeing M\u0101ori Television progress. I look forward to the announcement of its new chief executive, when that person is finally appointed. M\u0101ori Television definitely needs a new chief to steer that waka.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c15158805cdd4db5994340bd0872812d\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: I want Mister Ed in Te Reo again. He was good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf27e440caf847ef9dde95008680503e\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there might be Mister Ed in Te Reo, but I am looking forward to the\u2014oh, I forget the name, but there is the NBA\u2014the free-to-air National Basketball Association games, which screen on M\u0101ori Television. I am looking forward to hearing Pierre Lyndon giving commentary, with his great Ng\u0101ti Hine dialect\u2014\u201CThe ball goes down to Steven Adams in the low post. He does a move and he goes down the keyhole and he does a two-handed slamdunk in the face, right on top of LeBron James.\u201D\u2014all in the most beautiful Reo language. So it is exciting, and I might be able to watch that on my mobile phone or through high-definition TV. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. I look forward to considering it further and I wish M\u0101ori Television all the very best. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a93ac84fd1e0413e88826b4398130fb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a93ac84fd1e0413e88826b4398130fb8\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a short call in this third reading debate and to join members from across the Chamber and on the Government side in commending this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill, to the House for favourable passage through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2d82d95bdbb447aaa5835adb3836afb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2d82d95bdbb447aaa5835adb3836afb\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be able to make a contribution in the third reading to support the passage of the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Iriranga M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. It would be a great sign, actually, and a milestone, in fact, if members in this House were to continue to promote in 5 or 10 years\u2019 time what is happening in the M\u0101ori Television space. There is innovation. There is excitement. If members in this House could point to a number of programmes there because they see it as reflecting the face of New Zealand, then I think that that, in itself, speaks volumes for the contribution that M\u0101ori Television makes, not only to broadcasting but to increasing the knowledge amongst many New Zealanders in many communities of just how vibrant our country is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EOn 28 March next year the 10th anniversary of M\u0101ori Television will be reached. There have been some ups and downs, sure, but by and large what we have seen in the broadcasting space with the contribution of M\u0101ori Television is a clear role for a M\u0101ori broadcaster to protect and enhance Te Reo M\u0101ori, not just for M\u0101ori but for a broader range of New Zealanders. Why is this important? It is important because in our daily lives many of our children interact with all sorts of other children and they want to appreciate each others\u2019 culture. Recognising the unique identity of our children is, I think, a step towards increasing tolerance, appreciating difference, and seeing the unique potential of our young people as they grow up in our wonderful country. I do believe that M\u0101ori Television has a part to play in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EParekura Horomia was the Minister who initiated M\u0101ori Television, and he did it with a simple ambition: we want more of our kids to wake up in the morning being proud of who they are, speaking their language, and being unafraid to exercise their culture and their heritage in a way that can contribute to the well-being of their communities, their wh\u0101nau, and their country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBut let me say this: the types of innovation we have seen in M\u0101ori television are like when Te Matatini, the biennial senior kapa haka competition, is live streamed as it is happening on the day. I look forward to Te Matatini being live streamed from Christchurch to many people who will not able to travel there. Also what we have seen in terms of M\u0101ori Television contributing to the public broadcasting space is the promotion of events that some New Zealanders would have to pay for\u2014the Tua fight against Cameron, the Rugby World Cup. Those are two types of events where M\u0101ori Television said \u201CWell, actually, this is a public event of some interest. We want to participate on this front.\u201D I applaud its efforts to recognise that it can fill a certain niche within the public broadcasting space that contributes to the vibrancy of this country, and that opens up a world of opportunity and insight to the M\u0101ori world view and, more important, to the global view of indigenous people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWe have seen a number of innovations in the programming space. Some entertainment value has been got from my comment of being a mum of young children and being delighted that Dora the Explorer was going to be promoted in Te Reo M\u0101ori. Why? Because my children like watching all sorts of cartoons, and I am really optimistic about their ability to access cartoons in Te Reo M\u0101ori because I can continue to uphold what happens in our home, which is promoting and speaking as much M\u0101ori as possible, but at a level where my children can understand. Having access to cartoons, actually, is one of those ways of doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee we talked about some of the, I guess, concerns around Te P\u016Btahi Paoho, as I had mentioned previously, so as not to impede the bill but to raise with the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs our concerns about the governance body. The Minister has since said that he has assured himself that this is in hand and that this is something he will ensure will be given some attention in the ongoing governance arrangement between the Crown and Te P\u016Btahi Paoho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBy and large, we have seen M\u0101ori Television grow at a time where its budget has flatlined. We have seen M\u0101ori Television take the necessary steps to tailor its activities, but not its imagination, to its budget. It has a Facebook page. It is engaged in Twitter. Its programming engages the audience, whether it is through Facebook and Twitter, through 0900 numbers to vote on its various shows, or by getting all sorts of people from all walks of life into its programming or into programmes that are promoted on M\u0101ori Television. I applaud that, because I believe that in a country like ours, where we have so much vibrancy and where we have so much opportunity to promote how diverse our country is, a public broadcaster should be doing this. I believe that M\u0101ori Television is doing it very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI do want to see M\u0101ori Television grow. I do hope that this bill is a step towards that. It is signalled within the context of this legislation that ongoing reviews will happen and should happen, with the agreement of Te P\u016Btahi Paoho and the responsible Ministers. But, more important, it continues to carve out a key role that M\u0101ori Television has in the broadcasting space to promote the very best of our culture, language, and heritage to every New Zealander, should they want to access it. I am delighted about the way in which the broadcasting landscape has been broadened. I look forward to the day when Pacific television emerges on that landscape, because I can see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225695b49eb13f42438488f1b5e4986b65\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Mister Ed in Samoan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c2f18e1edb43f8b0b5328f842dae90\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that this is a real opportunity to again reinforce\u2014the Minister may make a gibe about Mister Ed, but that is more a reflection of his time and the one-syllable sentences that people of that era understood. That is why we all find it good entertainment value. But there is no problem with having Mister Ed translated into any type of language. If it means that the Hon Maurice Williamson will watch M\u0101ori Television because of Mister Ed, then I say M\u0101ori Television has succeeded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe real point of this contribution tonight is to say that given that M\u0101ori Television is 10 years into its operation\u2014it has had some ups and downs, mainly ups\u2014there is still a lot of entertainment value in this station, there is still a lot of contribution that the station can make in the broadcasting space, and there is a whole lot of opportunity for a lot of young people who see the digital age as an opportunity to engage their talent and potential in new and dynamic ways. I support the bill. I support its intent. Ki a koe te Minita, ahakoa ng\u0101 piki me ng\u0101 heke m\u014D ng\u0101 k\u014Drero e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei pire, nui te mihi atu ki a koe. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[To you the Minister, regardless of the ups and downs of the speeches in respect of this bill, I acknowledge you greatly. My thanks to us.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9b9a648150144009dbe2f5f5a371170\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9b9a648150144009dbe2f5f5a371170\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I also support this bill, the M\u0101ori Television Service (Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori) Amendment Bill. I thank all members for their constructive contributions to the debate. I congratulate the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs on bringing it to this point. Me whakanuia e t\u0101tou. [We should honour it.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282cd7335468b4360926a1a028ba77f70\u0022\u003EBuilding Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002285b8129e829145aea5c18534e6df1d7b\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022cced991fcc5649e8a7b3ce3d98ecb5a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cced991fcc5649e8a7b3ce3d98ecb5a1\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House that consideration of all parts and schedules of the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) be taken as one debate in Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c718945002f74c08a83dfbef69b10278\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022677e5147b5d54542aa2e35634c527a25\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00221494e318ef154ce381729895f03368f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221494e318ef154ce381729895f03368f9\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a fairly brief call at the beginning of this. I hope I will cover off what I think are the key issues in this bill, the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). It is indeed a piece of reform that got started well and truly before this Government came into office. I give some commendation to the Hon Shane Jones, who was my predecessor. In fact, there are many people out there who will say that I am the best Minister for Building and Construction since Shane Jones. Given that I am the only one since Shane Jones, that is at least a compliment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe reform of that whole sector, which started with the Building Act 2004, now has to have a number of other things added to it. This bill has got some elements about consumer protection and about needing written contracts if the work you are engaged in with a builder is worth over $20,000. But there are some issues that I think were raised along the way. I just want to try to cover them off quickly, and then I will shut up and allow the members to make their comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EFirst, I think the almost slightly valid criticism was that this bill is a bit piecemeal in dealing with the sector because it is only a certain part of it. I make no excuse for the fact that I have had to do this in tranches. When we did the Building Amendment Bill (No 3), this bill\u2019s predecessor, it had stuff about risk-based consenting, which, by the way, we can trigger only once this bill is through. That has enormous impacts for Christchurch. If we are going to really make some progress in the Christchurch rebuild, we do want to have risk-based consenting\u2014that is, the very, very low-risk stuff will have almost no relative scrutiny compared with stuff that is at the very high end of the risk. So this bill completes probably the last of the criteria needed to trigger the regulations for risk-based consenting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut I could not get it all done in one hit, even though I would have loved to. I would love to have had one huge building amendment omnibus bill. So we did the No. 3 bill, got that through, got it in place, and when the No. 4 bill tonight is finished, it will allow us to trigger things like risk-based consenting. So I would hope that instead of members seeing this as being a bit piecemeal, this was stuff that needed to be held over while we got through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that I have heard people say that the bill should provide for proportionate liability in the building sector, particularly in light of the Supreme Court decision on The Spencer on Byron Hotel, and so on. Can I say that this is the greatest bugbear of my life about the building sector: I think that joint and several liability is wrong. I think you should be held accountable for the things that you do but you should not be held accountable for things that you did not do. But, sadly, under our current liability rule, which is called joint and several liability, you are joined with everybody else, and if they did something wrong, you can be caught in that web, as local authorities found to their chagrin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIt is a harder issue than any of the members of this House will give credit for. We have kicked it off to the Law Commission, and it is doing an in-depth piece of work and will report back to us\u2014hopefully, by the end of the year, maybe, or early in the new year\u2014as to whether we could go to proportionate liability. I want to say to members that other jurisdictions around the world do have proportionate liability and it works, so I do not see why we could not. I will repeat it again: you should be held accountable for the things that you do; you should not be held accountable for things that someone else did wrong, but then you are the last man standing. I know that a number of territorial local authorities got caught up in all the leaky home syndrome when in fact they ended up being the last man standing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI think that one of the other issues raised before the Local Government and Environment Committee was that the bill should require mandatory home warranties. That is pretty closely related to that whole liability issue, and it is, again, a real pet hobby of mine. I would love to go to some mandatory warranties. If you buy a new car, you get a warranty. If you buy a new plasma screen, you get a warranty, and it is guaranteed fit for purpose. But, sadly, under the current regime, if you get a new house, there are some issues about what liabilities are sheeted home to whom, and whether there is a warranty. So we will have to wait for the Law Commission\u2019s report, but I give members an absolute watertight guarantee that if the Law Commission gives us some room to move, then I will be pushing to move to proportionate liability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EOne of the other issues raised at the select committee, I think, was that the bill does not go far enough in protecting consumers. Although I think that that is always going to be an issue, I am hopeful that this bill has got the balance right. It requires everybody involved in work over $20,000 to have a written contract. I think the amendments in the bill will be supported by the consumer information that is there. Education and advice over the next few years will tell people involved in the building sector what their rights are and how to get better information. And I think an effective monitoring regime also in place to track improvements in consumer awareness is part of what we are bringing in here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThere are two or three other items. All parties\u2014that is, consumer building professionals and building consent authorities\u2014continue to be financially exposed even for defects that are not their making. Again, that is under the liability aspect. I think it is fair to say that we have just got to wait for the Law Commission. Hopefully, we will get a good report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill does not address the huge skill deficit in the sector. That is true, but it is not the role of this bill. I was with my colleague Steven Joyce today out in P\u0113tone, where we were launching a new construction training unit at WelTec. The new apprenticeships scheme has got 8,000 more enrolled in the building apprenticeship scheme than we had anticipated. So, yes, there will be a skills shortage from time to time. That is just the nature of this industry\u2014peaks and troughs. And Christchurch is coming on stream. When it does come on, it will be huge. With the shortage of housing in Auckland, there will be a big demand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI can forecast now\u2014and I want to go on record now\u2014that the big complaint that will occur in about 18 or so months from now is that there are not enough skilled practitioners in the field. But let me actually add the next complaint. In about 3 years from there, maybe 4 years from there, there will be a complaint that there is not enough work for all the skilled practitioners. That is just the nature of the cyclical beast of the way this industry works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other bits in the bill that are sort of almost add-ons, but I just want to cover them quickly in the 2 minutes I have got. There was a complaint that the bill is weakening a dam safety scheme that is currently in the Building Act. I want to make it clear that we think that this is about the right level of risk management without imposing unnecessary compliance costs. A number of local authorities and regional councils have been to me and said \u201CPlease don\u2019t make it that we have to get involved in a lot of bureaucracy on quite small pools of water that shouldn\u2019t be called a dam. But we understand that if they are big pools of water with a lot of height and a lot of volume, they can pose a risk.\u201D I think that what we have done in dam safety in this bill will target dams that are higher risk and that should be subject to the scheme and improve the effectiveness of the dam safety scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EFinally, the last of the complaints was that a select committee change to the definition of a large dam captures even more small dams, making the regulation more onerous. I would say that amendments in Supplementary Order Paper 357 will remove that unnecessary compliance cost while ensuring the select committee\u2019s intent\u2014that is, to address potential safety concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI am going to sit here. I am not going to take too many more calls, because I think people get sick of hearing from me, but I think this is an integral part of the Building Act reforms. It is a very exciting night for me with this No. 4 bill going through, because I think it completes them. I want to repeat that I give some credit to my predecessor, Shane Jones, and, actually, a number of building Ministers before him, because I think Labour had about six building Ministers within 6 years. This was the path that had already been set out when I read my briefing as an incoming Minister. This reform of the sector was already in train. I am delighted that we are going to get it through the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u002241b8ccbc4e7547d9aa3ccb3c18aa68d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241b8ccbc4e7547d9aa3ccb3c18aa68d0\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Ni hao. Following the good spirit of the Minister for Building and Construction, who has just resumed his seat, I would like to acknowledge the Hon Shane Jones, Labour\u2019s spokesperson on building and construction, who was an experienced Minister for Building and Construction, as the current Minister just acknowledged. I am lucky to be his associate and to be his understudy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI would also like to acknowledge the current Minister for Building and Construction. I should say that the more I have got to know about the issues involving building and construction, the more I appreciate the complexity involved in the Building Act review. I do feel for the Minister for Building and Construction, especially whenever he was accused of taking a piecemeal approach, for various reasons, as he just outlined in his contribution. But that does not mean that he is exonerated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELast but not least, I would like to thank the officials for their thorough analysis, for their thorough departmental report, and for their advice, which was very, very helpful. The departmental report on this particular bill, the Building Amendment Bill (No 4), is one of the best of this kind. The departmental report, and, indeed, the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) itself, covered a number of issues. Some of them are outside of the scope of this bill but are a very important part of the Building Act review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELabour supports the Building Act review, but our position remains the same, and that is that we cannot\u2014at least at this stage\u2014support the passage of this bill. Two events would have played a certain role in affecting our position. As stated in our Local Government and Environment Committee minority report, given the range of serious issues that have been raised by the submitters, and the fact that the Government would be considering the findings of the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Building Failure Caused by the Canterbury Earthquakes, it would make more sense to separate off the elements of the No. 4 bill that relate to dams and to hold back the provisions that deal with consumer issues in relation to residential properties. If that happened, as indicated in our minority report, we would have no problem in supporting the provisions in relation to classifiable or referable dams. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe second event is related to the review of the non-ductile column buildings built between 1982 and 1995 with three storeys or more. The purpose was to establish whether there were any buildings with similar design flaws to the CTV Building, which collapsed in the February 2011 Christchurch earthquake, killing 115 people. I should say the approach taken by the Minister for Building and Construction was sensible and professional. There are two building owners who have refused to engage with the review despite the council asking them to get an engineering assessment. The status quo does not give councils or the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment the power to compel at-risk building owners to have their at-risk buildings assessed and their problems addressed. I agree with the Minister who found it unacceptable and I understand he has been investigating options to increase accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe options that the Minister has been investigating are either a Supplementary Order Paper to this bill or stand-alone legislation. If the Minister introduces such a Supplementary Order Paper it may affect our position with regard to the bill in its entirety. It is more in sorrow than in anger that we have no other choice but to decide to vote against this bill. Having said that I should reiterate that our position as stated in our minority report in the Building Amendment Bill (No 3)\u2014now the 2012 Act\u2014has remained the same as well. It is an opportunity lost in that the Minister has so far taken a piecemeal and uncoordinated approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI do find the Minister\u2019s explanations to some extent acceptable. However, I am not quite sure how many stand-alone bills the Minister is going to introduce or when he is going to introduce, for example, the Building Amendment Bill (No 5), (No 6), or (No 7). It sounds like the Minister is competing against Steve Jobs in releasing iPhones 5, 5s, 6, or 7, but the building sector needs certainty. We legislators need to look beyond the status quo to introduce effective measures to prevent a repeat of the man-made leaky buildings saga and to prepare us for rainy days, both in the literal and figurative sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere are some other issues that I would like to touch upon at this Committee stage. The first one is related to the Weathertight Homes Tribunal. The No. 4 bill states that owners of dwellings that suffer from building defects that are not remedied by the liable parties can seek redress through arbitration, the Weathertight Homes Tribunal, or the courts. These courses of action are already fully available to aggrieved owners. But certainly in the case of the courts, and even the Weathertight Homes Tribunal, they are ruinously expensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThis bill does nothing to reduce this cost, to improve the technical ability of these judicial bodies to arrive at technically correct findings or, as stated above, to ensure that responsible parties are held accountable. Whereas the Government could reasonably claim that a review of joint and several liability vis-\u00E0-vis proportional liability\u2014by the way, I do accept the explanations given by the Minister in his earlier contributions\u2014and the technical performance of the courts are matters for the Law Commission to consider, the effectiveness of the Weathertight Homes Tribunal should have formed a major part of the Building Act review, and, as a consequence, this suite of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe other related matter is a mandatory home warranty. I support Wellington City Council and Christchurch City Council, two of our largest city councils, and a number of other submitters who have called on the Government to introduce a home warranty insurance scheme, and urge the Minister to refer the matter to the Law Commission for review. As pointed out by the Home Owners and Buyers Association, if the parties responsible for defective building work have either gone out of business, died, or left New Zealand, the consumer is left exposed and faces having to cover the costs. Building law should be amended to offer greater protections. Oddly, the Local Government and Environment Committee, which considered the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) now before the Committee to be passed under urgency, was forced to amend its report to the House. The committee and public were led to believe that the Minister had referred the matters of both joint and several liability and the mandatory home warranty scheme to the Law Commission for review. However, the Law Commission later informed the chair that mandatory home warranties had never been referred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFor the general public it does not matter as to who misled the committee, but I continue to urge the Government to refer this issue to the Law Commission and establish a system that provides meaningful and effective protections and guarantees for consumers and consenting authorities. We must legislate to prevent a repeat of the man-made leaky buildings saga, especially in light of an imminent construction boom in parts of the country. New Zealand consumers deserve protection, and the Minister needs to make sure that the law ensures that contractors and suppliers will be held accountable. The Government\u2019s piecemeal approach will not work, and introducing inadequate measures or partial instalments is not the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3be996e7aab439c8bf4def11ef53e28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3be996e7aab439c8bf4def11ef53e28\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to acknowledge the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Building and Construction, and my colleague Raymond Huo, who until recently was shepherding this shadow portfolio through our caucus, and I endorse a number of the things that he has pointed out this evening. I am quite sure that the Minister himself realises that it is a work in progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI would say that the difficulty with this bill, the Building Amendment Bill (No 4), is that the train has left the station and it is on its trajectory. This debate is about how to get the balance between those consumers who want efficiency, speed, and the delivery of the product, because many of them have upset wives or husbands at home and they do not want the hammers being bashed around too long for renovations etc., and those\u2014and my colleague Raymond Huo has highlighted their identity\u2014who believe that the fallout of the leaky homes saga is such that we should always go for a belts and braces approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is a rather unique collection of individuals we have here. We have Mr Cosgrove, a former building Minister; we have the Hon Maurice Williamson; and we have my good self. The problem I have is that I was also the Associate Minister of Immigration, and I can tell you that that was far more hazardous than being the building Minister. But having said that, quite a few of the things in the bill we do think will work, but it did not quite get there, from our perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut having said that, we are conscious of what the Minister said. A number of these refinements\u2014it is the genuine belief of the Minister and his colleagues, and I guess the professional advisers\u2014will expedite work in Christchurch, but not the highly technical, demanding work that needs a whole panel of engineers. And I am not talking about the disgraced engineer Alan Reay, whose name, unfortunately, blighted the splendour and majesty of this Chamber recently. But that aside, I am talking about those who are proud of their profession. I am talking about those who realise that to have a durable city, you need accountable professionals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI do feel that we should, if we can, at all times, enhance the importance of consumer protection whilst at the same time giving a bit scope and space, because, as we go forward during this transition, nothing is static, and there will be a need to refine it as we go forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI will not talk too much about dam safety, although unless Nick Smith\u2019s stewardship of the Ruataniwha dam fiasco proposal improves, this bill will not ever have any application in Hawke\u2019s Bay in terms of dam safety. That is a bit of a shame, because I was born and bred on a farm and I realise the importance of irrigation etc., but now that I am a professional politician and a member of the august Labour Party caucus, the importance of process has been brought home to me as well. The processes that we had in Awanui and Kait\u0101ia were possibly a tad more pragmatic than what I have learnt to accept is resource management law\u2014but that is for another discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI would say that this is work that we initiated, and the Minister for Building and Construction has carried it on. Phil Twyford looked at it, and more recently Mr Huo has looked at it. Let us acknowledge that there are areas that we slightly agree on. We are all deeply committed to ensuring that the building framework meets not only the needs of consumers but also the needs of the regulator. I hope that they can make a call and shift the balance. I am of the view that if you can rely on an electrician and if you can rely on a plumber, then what we thought we were doing\u2014the Hon Clayton Cosgrove and I, in Helen Clark\u2019s time, quite apart from listening to every word that she ever uttered\u2014[Interruption] Well, there were one or three words that I conveniently overlooked. But it was as the Minister for Building and Construction that I recall saying: \u201CI don\u2019t think it\u2019s a good idea that we should actually regulate for the amount of water that comes out of the showerhead.\u201D I was acquainted with the fact that it was Green Party policy and I should defend it\u2014it is sad that nobody came to my defence when I was caught in the trenches, but you learn these things when you are No. 18. We cannot support the bill, but we support the sentiments in there. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00224ff499eea56f4e6a97ee038fb14c7cc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ff499eea56f4e6a97ee038fb14c7cc6\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to make a short contribution. The Green Party is opposing this legislation, and I want to just briefly set out why, for the Committee\u2019s information. The Building Amendment Bill (No 4) deals with consumer protection recommendations from the Building Act review. We supported the bill at its first reading and we were interested to hear the submissions and the response to the legislation, because there had been concerns with the previous bills that came out of the review about the piecemeal approach to dealing with the original review\u2019s recommendations. So we did support the bill going to the Local Government and Environment Committee. We have heard the responses from submitters. It is our view now that the bill does not deal with consumer protection sufficiently to justify our vote, so we will not be supporting it any further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe did support the original bill because we are very much in favour of increased consumer protections. It is crucial that the regulatory environment for building and housing in New Zealand is first class. There is no room for substandard regulatory reform. There is no room for substandard consumer protections. Of course, we have had far too many lessons in this country that prove how necessary it is to have a first-class set of regulatory laws around building and housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe have the substandard quality of most of the rental housing stock in this country, which is largely old stock that is poorly insulated, often poorly built, damp, and makes our kids and our families sick. We have had the debacle of the leaky homes, which was the direct result of a previous National Government\u2019s deregulation obsession. It has cost families and councils and communities millions and millions of dollars. Of course, there are the weaknesses tragically discovered after major events like the Christchurch earthquakes. Given the very dynamic nature of New Zealand\u2019s environment and our land, and the importance of housing and building to the safety and protection of our families, there just is no room for a substandard approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ESo from our point of view, having looked at the bill and heard the submissions, we do not believe that this bill makes the sufficient reforms to justify the support. We did want to see a higher minimum standard, if you like, set in place. We agree with the Home Owners and Buyers Association that a mandatory warranting scheme with an independent authority was a better option. We do understand that there is likely to be more reform in the future, and we are pleased about that. We welcome that and we will look very seriously at supporting future measures where there are stronger consumer protections. We look forward to more debate on that in time. But until those protections are genuinely stronger and provide sufficient support, we will not support something that is substandard. So, unfortunately, this is not the bill that provides the kinds of protections that we would like to see put in place. We look forward to future legislation that does that. Until that time, we will be voting against this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c36d4fa81b904de0acbf9458456d2d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c36d4fa81b904de0acbf9458456d2d08\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). It was somewhat disappointing to hear the Minister for Building and Construction, the Hon Maurice Williamson, use most of the time in his address to talk about what was not in this bill rather than what was in this bill. To hear the Minister say that low-risk building will have next to no scrutiny\u2014low-risk building will have next to no scrutiny\u2014really does raise alarm bells for New Zealand First and, indeed, for many New Zealanders throughout New Zealand who have seen the effects on building such as with the leaky building situation that came out of the National Government in the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill is more about excluding things and, if you read the bill, it seems to exclude more things than include things. When you start looking at what is exempted, you see that it exempts in the future any compliance requirements from a local authority to build the likes of carports, pergolas, outbuildings 10 square metres or less, and interior alterations to non-residential buildings. It moves into retaining walls and all sorts of other things that become excluded. When you start excluding all these various things, you open up a situation where consumers, the public of New Zealand, start being put at risk. People do stand on decks. People do stand under pergolas. People do walk through, or park in, carports. And if many of these structures start to be thrown up by any old person without any compliance requirements at all, we will end up with a very, very Mickey Mouse situation in building in this country. I can foresee that, as we saw in this last decade with the leaky home situation, when much of this is now going to be self-regulating\u2014the likes of the Registered Master Builders Federation and other such entities will be self-regulated\u2014there will be far less scrutiny by local authorities and councils. As a result of that, we have the potential here of setting up for the next decade, and the decade after that, another whole leaky building situation brought about by yet another National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt would seem that the National Government does not learn from its past mistakes. Minister Williamson certainly appears not to, having been in a National Government in the 1990s, which changed the building code, which allowed monolithic cladding to be applied directly to kiln-dried timber, and then we ended up with that very monolithic cladding cracking and moisture getting into the untreated timber and rotting houses as a result. That same National Government, some 15 or 20 years later, now is saying: \u201CLet\u2019s take away a lot of the safeguards. Let\u2019s remove a lot of the local authority controls in terms of oversight of building. Let\u2019s have a much more self-regulated building industry.\u201D on the premise that this will reduce building costs. Although it might on the face of it reduce some compliance costs of building, what is the long-term cost to New Zealand? What is the long-term cost in terms of health and safety of New Zealanders if structures are put up that basically do not come up to scratch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill, as the Minister also said, does not address building skills in New Zealand. So we could be faced with a situation during this whole period through this decade, as a result of this legislation, that builders may not necessarily have qualifications that would be expected of them, because they may, for instance, not have been trained in this country. They may have been trained under different circumstances in other countries, where perhaps their building codes are not quite the same, or their building practices are not quite the same, as in New Zealand. We may well find in the future that questions are asked as to why a carport fell down or why a pergola suddenly dropped\u2014[Bell rung] Mr Chair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dde2be2aa6a43b3b91f0c4bd8820ba8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dceff62919f04eabb0edde0d5ddb0b66\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. You did not have to look around\u2014I was the only one standing. But thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8c639b5f40402cb8132722c2471e49\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I always look around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4d4f1138324450acf4b539591e95e7\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It is very fortunate this debate will be in Hansard, because if it is in Hansard, where the warning bells are given and where the Government is on notice that what it is doing is once again revisiting a potential situation of putting New Zealanders at risk, then let us look at this Hansard recording perhaps in 10 years\u2019 time and ask how this happened. And why did we change all these things, bring in self-regulation, and bring in this legislation that basically saw the leaky homes thing revisited all over again? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt mentions in this bill that contractors who exceed $20,000 worth of work will be required to provide a written contract. But what happens if the contract is for $19,999.99 and that contractor does one bit of the work, and his brother who is a different contractor does another bit of the work for $19,999.99, and then his cousin does some more of the work for another $19,999.99, and multiples of that? What happens then? Where is the written contract for that, and where are the safeguards for New Zealand for multiples of that? The bill also says that these entities will be required to give written contracts and their background as to their capabilities. Again, how often have we seen Mr XYZ Builder 2008 Ltd. not being around and then disappearing and starting up a new thing as Mr ABC Builder 2010 Ltd. in a totally different guise? How will that be addressed? I would ask the Minister to take a call on this and tell us how these sorts of things will be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EHow will multiples of under $20,000 be addressed? How will people going under various names or through various window companies or through various other entities that they may be operating\u2014how will that be addressed? How will the building skills requirement be addressed? How will we know that builders who may not have been trained in New Zealand and who may have come from other jurisdictions with other practices in building are doing what is right by New Zealanders? And how will we know, for instance, because there is no requirement for any permit in the case of buildings that are less than 10 square metres\u2014and that is a reasonably sized room\u2014that these small structures will not be going up all over the back lawns of Auckland because of the housing shortage? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EFor many people in Auckland who are currently squeezed into three-bedroom homes with large families, how will we ensure that they are not themselves putting up substandard 10-square-metre outhouses on their back lawn for children or family or extended family to live in, with next to no scrutiny by any local authority as to how that structure was built, whether it is fire-code compliant, whether it is structurally sound, or anything? Tell us, Minister, how will we stop people putting up such structures of under 10 square metres across Auckland back lawns, all through Manukau, and all through your electorate, Minister? So there are a lot of questions in this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe Minister also mentioned about the situation of joint and several versus proportionate liability. Again, that is long overdue and it should have been addressed before now, as it has been in other countries, because the last man standing in this country always tends to be the local authority, because everybody else has disappeared. They have gone west. They have closed their companies, or they have shot through to Australia, or wherever else, and the only one remaining tends to be the local authority that perhaps was involved in signing it off. So New Zealand First would like that addressed as well. But there are many, many things\u2014you could drive a bus through half of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut, at the end of the day, this bill is more about exempting things. This bill is more about National making it easier for things to be done without compliance, and this basically means that New Zealanders face another risky decade or so coming up, where, perhaps, New Zealanders will be asking how we lowered the standards once again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 357 in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c743666cd14146e0a4d062f84ab49f7d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002272800de143ca4415958b718d09cb2bc5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d455467934254a9da019f19ff325a9b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa0c7c56de684276aab5e46a975b61c8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c0c55c8c5ac4a809a3b2f39326e78a1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001029\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 357 in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022888f5670e8734fa782eaa3d795c8b240\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c4264be38d0486cb3e08b9711a16ff1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca8fd74d46f6473f9af18b30e1dea5be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 13; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001030\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001031\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0f114baacb5452781278fadcc53b5d9\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u002280a9992385e84112897aaae57c9e1773\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280a9992385e84112897aaae57c9e1773\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a third time. We have just been through the Committee of the whole House stage of the Building Amendment Bill (No 4), and I was asked by one of the speakers to put a bit more time into what is in the bill. I do not intend to take a long time going through the bill, but I do want to say that the most important ingredient in this bill makes it mandatory for a builder to provide a written contract for any work if it is over $20,000. So it is not mandatory if you are getting your kitchen cupboards redone or you are getting a door to the laundry changed, and so on, but it is mandatory for any work that is more than slightly trivial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThere are some really important ingredients. First of all, the builder must provide to the consumer a checklist of what information is available to the client, including their rights and their obligations under the building work process, so that the consumer becomes well-informed. They need to disclose to the client information about their skills, their work history, and their business. They need to show to the consumer: \u201CThis is what I am, in terms of a skilled, qualified practitioner. This is the history of my work programme\u201D\u2014which the client can go and look at\u2014\u201Cand this is what my business is structured like.\u201D, in terms of whether it might fold because it is so delicate. That is, I think, vitally important to the consumer. Finally, the builder has to enter into an absolutely written contract so that it is actually watertight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI thank the House for processing this through, but I think it is worthwhile covering just a couple of points, especially the points raised by Metiria Turei from the Green Party about National\u2019s deregulation of the building sector. These points that I want to make now are not to try to play silly games or anything; they are just straight factual. The Building Bill of 1991 was introduced into Parliament by Labour, by the Hon Margaret Austin. She introduced it in 1990 because Labour thought that the whole building sector needed dramatic reform, and, to be absolutely honest, National agreed with that. So when we became the Government in 1990 we finished off the bill by passing it through its third reading and making it become an Act. But it was not ours to start with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn fact, I have got some wonderful quotes from George Hawkins when he became the Minister later on, saying: \u201CNational, don\u2019t dare claim credit for that Act. That was ours. Yes, it might have been passed when National was in Government, but it was our bill, which Margaret Austin introduced, and Labour deserves the credit for it.\u201D So be very careful about accusing National of being the deregulating Government that changed the legislation in 1991. We did not introduce that bill. We did not put it through its first few stages, including through the select committee. We gave it its third reading only because we agreed with it. So it was a Labour Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe second thing that I think is worthwhile covering is that the key cause for our leaky homes syndrome was not anything to do with this Parliament, it was not anything to do with a Minister, and it was not anything to do with a member of Parliament or anything else. There was an independent agency\u2014completely independent of Ministers and this Parliament\u2014called Standards New Zealand. It was Standards New Zealand, after a lot of advocacy from the big timber companies Fletcher\u2019s and Carters saying that treated timber had all sorts of arsenics, carcinogens, and all sorts of ghastly stuff that could leech into the builders\u2019 skin, and so on, and that we did not need to use it any more. Interestingly, if you read the report\u2014because I have read it with great interest\u2014it said that borer was no longer an issue. That is why we had mainly treated timber, up until 1995, for borer. So Standards New Zealand\u2014and not any Minister in any Government or any select committee or any member of Parliament was involved in it\u2014decided to allow kiln-dried timber as an acceptable solution under the Building Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn hindsight, that proved to be a huge mistake, and the country is paying billions. PricewaterhouseCoopers has estimated it to be $11.2 billion already, and it could be double that. So be very careful of laying the blame on any political party, and be very careful of laying the blame on any Minister, for the decision to go to untreated timber. It was no Minister, even if at the time they had known it\u2014I do not know who the Minister was in 1995, but I do not think they would have even known that it was an issue, because Standards New Zealand just did it independently and announced that decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThen, finally, Andrew Williams said that he does not like the idea of risk-based consenting\u2014that is, things that are at the very low end of the risk curve. These are things that are using stock standard products, using stock standard design, treated timber, three-bedroom\u2014he does not like the idea of that having a lot less scrutiny than something that is at the high end of the risk curve. Well, I say to Mr Williams that we used to have the full scrutiny, the 18 inspections, the building consent process, and the actual code of compliance on all those buildings. And did that give consumers protection? Did that save them from the disasters that they have had? So why he would be advocating that we need to stay with the full set of consents and inspections, and the code of compliance when it did not give thousands of consumers the protection\u2014why would you then say: \u201CWell, that\u2019s what we should stay with.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ea0827aee84f688d1de69d99beb1c0\u0022\u003EAndrew Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it gave protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0ec40c1f194ca09a799d96c977c9d7\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: It did not give them protection, and if he thinks it did, there are tens of thousands of people out there now who are dramatically out of pocket and hurt by it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe whole purpose of it\u2014and this was the whole direction of the review\u2014was to say: \u201CWhy don\u2019t we look at things that are at the low end of the risk curve? Why don\u2019t we look at things that are almost a guarantee not to be an issue?\u201D. And we have already done it with a thing called MultiProof, where we have said to people: \u201CCome and get your consent for the building once and only once, and then when you go out and build multiple copies of it around the country, you don\u2019t need to keep going to the local authority for each individual version of that building.\u201D, which is a good move. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut I also say to them that what we have got now\u2014and it is another thing I do not think Andrew Williams is giving any credit for\u2014as of March last year, is the licensed building practitioners scheme. What that says now is that if you are going to build a house and be involved in either the structural integrity or the weathertight envelope of that building, you actually have to be a qualified practitioner. You have to have been through a whole series of processes to evaluate your skills, your talents, and your qualifications, and you then become a licensed practitioner. Up until March of last year all you needed to do to build a house was to have a cellphone, a dog, and a ute. Anyone\u2014anyone\u2014could have gone and built a house up until March of last year. No longer can you do that. You now have to be a qualified person or be supervised by a qualified person. So why would we then say to a qualified practitioner: \u201CThe regime is like it is. You\u2019re qualified. We don\u2019t need all the scrutiny, but in fact we still think we should have bureaucrats pour over you for something quite so simple.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn the end, I thank some of the Labour members for their words. I know they have not thought that the bill goes far enough, and let me say that I think I agree with them. But it is better that we make some incremental improvements as time rolls by than try to find a way of solving all of the problems in one hit. I would really hope that we get the Law Commission to give a report about moving away from joint and several and moving to a proportionate level. So I am really happy to move that the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002247a92cba473044949c19148d0459fcc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247a92cba473044949c19148d0459fcc1\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As Shane Jones said, the Minister for Building and Construction heads up a unique alumni of Ministers for Building and Construction both present and past, along with Mr Jones and myself and the Minister, Mr Williamson. I cannot recall\u2014I am sure Mr Williamson might\u2014when we were in Government, how many Ministers for Building and Construction there were. There were a few, and I have to say from the outset that the intent, I think, of all those Ministers, from both sides, was to try to solve a series of difficult problems, and particularly, as the Minister says, the weathertight homes issue, which was visited on us for a variety of reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI accept the Minister\u2019s thesis, in part, that it was for a variety of reasons and a variety of contributing factors. I would, though, mention one, as it sort of latticed together those factors, and that was that in the old days\u2014possibly well before some of us were here\u2014we had things called apprenticeships. We had a building regime that generally\u2014and many of our State houses are living testaments to it. You could fire a howitzer at some of them, and though they were built pre-insulation and though they are bit draughty, they still stand up to most things today. But many of our houses throughout our history were build on a handshake, and builders and construction folk came back if there was a problem and fixed it. They were constructed well and those builders were trained in a thing called an apprenticeship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBefore I entered this Parliament\u2014and I remember as Minister making a couple of points to the then Hon Dr Lockwood Smith, who at the time\u2014I think it was 19\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cd2899380524040b0f0ca964ccb9923\u0022\u003EKris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Right honourable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ef12107f4f246409719bb763c13257f\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Right honourable. I was going to say Sir, but I presume that is yet to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc10150f45b24ec8b4a13973f5b09f3c\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no\u2014it is Sir Lockwood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61b44c239ca480eb3fb3c33ebd4f6ff\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he is Sir. That is right\u2014of course. I apologise. The Rt Hon Sir Dr Lockwood Smith\u2014I hope I have got it, and honourable somewhere in there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224facda130ebc4777969c6d0e21eedec2\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: School C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d4c422504a43e490dbd337aae7a8bb\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014bistro and bar. But he\u2014I think it was in 1995\u2014as tertiary education Minister, abolished a thing called the Apprenticeship Act in the vain hope that the market would sort it out, and people would go and get the skills, and those sorts of things. I recall when I originally, and Shane Jones, took and launched the licensed building practitioners regime. The hope I think we had, once we transitioned those builders who had appropriate skill levels, who may not have had the trade certificate or an apprenticeship but did have a very good track record of building\u2014once they were sort of through it\u2014was that we could almost turn the clock back and say to the 15-year-old at high school: \u201CSon, if you want to be a builder, you have to get a thing called an apprenticeship.\u201D. That is why we introduced the Modern Apprenticeships scheme. The Minister is right, in that you could strap on a tool belt, call yourself a builder, and do anything. But I think that was a contributing factor. In the old days people were trained through a 3 to 4-year apprenticeship, and they knew what they were doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThough we support the review process in respect of the Building Act, we find ourselves, on this side of the House, unable to support the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). I say to the Minister\u2014he made a couple of comments to Andrew Williams, I think it was, and said: \u201CWell, we had 18 inspections. We had council inspectors running around the place. Take weathertight building homes\u2014they did not get it right, and we still have the problem.\u201D I have got to say that I agree with the Minister to a certain extent, because I remember going to a number of local authorities as Minister for Building and Construction and actually talking to some of the building inspectors, and on one occasion they said: \u201COh, we stopped the \u2018drive-by inspections\u2019 only a couple of years ago.\u201D I said: \u201CWhat do you mean \u2018drive-by\u2019?\u201D. They said: \u201CWell, to be honest, the pressure was on us so much that we just sort of drove by, waved at the building, and then signed it off.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ETo be fair, though, the answer, in my view\u2014contrary to the Minister\u2019s\u2014is that less scrutiny does not reduce the risk. What I think should have happened, and what we did do, was that we started to accredit councils to make sure that building inspectors actually had the knowledge. There is the old joke that, you know, the building inspector is the failed builder\u2014not always. But to ensure that building inspectors and local authorities had the skills to actually inspect and check, and if it was not up to scratch, to then require change\u2014and not drive by the house and go, \u201CYep. It is all done.\u201D, and never even look, because it might have been their mates, or they were under pressure, or they did not have the resources\u2014we started the accreditation of councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI do not agree with the Minister that less inspection, less scrutiny, means less risk. Appropriate scrutiny by trained people who actually do the damn job can actually mean less risk. It used to be\u2014again, going back many years\u2014that the last line of defence for the homeowner was the building inspector from the council who would come in and make sure the bits joined together, and tick off those items. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI suppose the thing that concerns us is that this bill seems to be a sort of piecemeal approach. I agree with the sentiment of the Minister, which says that in theory low risk means we should be able to get on with it without a lot of bureaucracy\u2014if you want to build the outhouse outside, well, OK, maybe. But I still do not really get from the Minister\u2014and I still think the definition of what is low risk is too loose and has not been adequately defined. You could make an argument that fitting your hot-water cylinder is pretty standard, pretty low risk. Well, if she blows, it causes a heck of a lot of damage. So it is very easy, and, I think, very politically popular, to say: \u201CLook, low risk, we\u2019re just going to flick it through, with minimal scrutiny. It\u2019s not going to affect the envelope of the house; it doesn\u2019t matter. Just away you go and do it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think there needs to be a more holistic approach to this\u2014a far more holistic approach\u2014where all these facets are looked at. I say again that I do not understand the logic that less inspection means less risk. Appropriate levels of inspection by skilled and appropriate inspectors or professionals who can call to account the person who has constructed or done the work\u2014and make them fix it or do it appropriately\u2014generally means a higher degree of confidence for the homeowner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I say, in concluding, that although I accept that every Minister for Building and Construction has from time to time\u2014often under duress from the odd chief executive officer or senior official, I might add; some no longer with us\u2014had the best intentions to try to get this right, I do not think that this bill is the way to go. There should be more scrutiny and there should be an overarching regime, not a piecemeal sort of uncoordinated approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe will not support this bill. We support the sentiment, and we look forward to the day when the Government will take this issue a tad more seriously. The truth is that, as we all know\u2014and as has certainly been brought home to us by Christchurch and Canterbury, but for a natural reason, if you will, called an earthquake\u2014the biggest asset people have generally, or the biggest transaction people will have in their lives, is the purchase of a home. If there is anything good to come out of the leaky homes fiasco and even, sadly, the earthquake in terms of home scrutiny, I think it is this. Those of us who purchase property or who look to purchase property understand that we are just like most people when they buy a second-hand car, take it to the Automobile Association, and say: \u201CIs it a dunger or is it not? Is it OK? Is it worth the money?\u201D. We had this mind block that we would not do that with a house, but most people now\u2014and it is germane to today\u2019s Christchurch Press, actually\u2014will have a professional look at the home very closely. They will check the work to ensure that the asset they buy, with the hundreds of thousands of dollars that they outlay of their own money, is well worth it and that they are not buying a dunger\u2014not buying a dunger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI finish on this. If you look at construction\u2014I just digress for a short point, and that is that if we look at the Fletcher Construction project management in Christchurch, the legalised monopoly, it is astounding that with the accreditation system and other things in place, we find that one in three house repairs executed by Fletcher EQR is a dunger\u2014is a dunger. I think that even with all that, and even with the monopoly and the regime that the Government set up, to have those figures\u2014one in three a dunger\u2014is not acceptable, especially to those who have had their lives torn apart by an earthquake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6452370126a4221874150eed4f4506e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6452370126a4221874150eed4f4506e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Building Amendment Bill (No 4), which has gone through a tremendous amount of scrutiny since the review of the Building Act carried out in roughly 2009, flowing on to 2010. It is worth noting that the construction sector is a critical player in the New Zealand economy. It is the fifth-largest sector in New Zealand. It employs 174,000 people, which equates to somewhere roughly between 7 and 9 percent of the workforce overall. It contributes to about 4 percent of the GDP. It employs large numbers of M\u0101ori and lots of those, of course, leaving school and looking to upgrade their skills in that very sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIt is not surprising that in a sector employing so many working so hard in this country and contributing so much to our GDP there would be a few, if you like, cowboys out there. The idea of this legislation is to reform the building rules such that they \u201Cbuild it right first time\u201D. New Zealand, in some senses, in some parts of the country, and with some building companies, has been seen as something of a wild west historically, and, of course, that must stop, because although we talk about the very high-level figures for New Zealand, the reality is that if it was just one home that was built in New Zealand by one builder contributing very little to the GDP, to that particular family it is a complete tragedy if their largest and most valuable asset actually crumbles underneath them and they are left, essentially, with big bills to pay on top of a mortgage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis legislation will ensure that homeowners can make informed decisions about their homes and who builds their homes. Improvements to productivity, efficiency, and accountability can be achieved only if building work is designed and constructed right the first time and meets the requirements of the building code. The review did find an over-reliance on building consent authorities. It is important that we do have the monitoring, the policing, and, of course, the accountability that comes from that. The reality is that we want to trust the builder in the first place to give good advice and do an excellent job on site. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe changes will enforce in law what is already best practice in the industry. The majority of builders, who have already behaved professionally, have nothing to fear whatsoever, but the cowboys do, and that is a good thing. I am sure that this House agrees. The major change is that homeowners will be better able to identify between a professional and those who are lax in their work. And, of course, the drawing up of contracts and the obligations on builders to provide some sort of transparency about their business and what they are going to give, I guess, to their clients have been fully opened up. I commend this bill to the House. It has taken a long period of work by this Parliament and the Minister to pay attention to detail. I congratulate the Local Government and Environment Committee on its work, and I commend the bill to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa459533ab9b403a9b12e8a8d49d6455\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa459533ab9b403a9b12e8a8d49d6455\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Labour supports the Building Act review, and our focus is on the protection of consumers, building practitioners, and building consenting authorities\u2014namely, ratepayers. For that reason we cannot, at least at this stage, support the passage of the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). We look forward to supporting any new bills that provide such protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ETwo events, as explained in my earlier contributions, would have played a certain role in affecting our position. It would make more sense to focus specifically on issues in relation to dams and hold back the provisions that deal with the consumer issues in relation to residential properties. The second one is concerning the review of the non-ductile column buildings built between 1982 and 1995 with three storeys or more. The purpose was to establish whether there were any buildings with design flaws similar to those of the CTV Building, which collapsed in the February 2011 Christchurch earthquake, killing 115 people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe current legal regime does not give authorities the power to compel owners of at-risk buildings to have their at-risk buildings assessed in the interests of public safety. The Minister for Building and Construction had earlier indicated that he would explore options to address the issue by introducing, for instance, a Supplementary Order Paper to this bill, but neither of the two events occurred in terms of the progress of this bill, and therefore our opposition, as outlined in our minority report, has remained the same. It is more in sorrow than in anger that we have no other choice but to vote against this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere are a number of issues I wish to bring to the attention of this House\u2014firstly, the definition of buildings. The Building Act, as its title suggests, is meant to cover all the infrastructure, commercial and industrial buildings, and structures. However, one major problem with the drafting of both the Building Amendment Bill (No 3), the Building Amendment Bill (No 4), and, indeed, the entire Building Act review is their obsession with homes, dwelling units. It appears that they have confined the definition of buildings to that of homes, dwelling units, or residential buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EGiven the very serious problems that have come to light with large structures, especially stadiums, the Building Act review and the two bills introduced to implement its policy decisions should have covered more than dams and dwelling units. The Supreme Court\u2019s decision on the Spencer on Byron Hotel case has reinforced the view that the Building Act review and the bills introduced should be taking a wider look at those issues. It is therefore important to note that we are dealing with only part of what the Building Act is meant to cover, and, further, that the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) addresses only residential buildings and, oddly, dams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESecondly, we find the rationale to replace code compliance certificates with consent completion certificates less convincing. We agree with the submissions and the views that, until such time as the licensed building practitioner regime matures, this is a step too far. According to them, at this stage the regime is more a system of ticking boxes than a means to upskill the industry. The new consent completion certificate is significantly different from the old code compliance certificate, and this change will almost certainly have a detrimental effect on consumers seeking redress for severe loss. I note the Minister has not triggered the new consent completion certificate regime, for good reasons, and that has reinforced my view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThirdly, contrary to the purpose of this bill, the measures introduced would reduce the means by which an aggrieved owner can seek redress for significant financial loss and hardship. One overarching concern from the submitters is that this bill sought to redistribute the responsibility and liability of the building consent authorities, and therefore intended to ring-fence them, in the event of building failures. We agree that the liability that has, until now, rested with the consenting authorities, as the last man standing, is unacceptable. This is because ratepayers have had to eventually bear the cost of negligence claims brought against the consenting authorities. It is equally unacceptable that it is now the consumers, who will be left to pick up most of the bill for any claims resulting from substandard building work. Further, no measures have been taken to ensure that builders and other parties who may be responsible for serious defects have sufficient assets and insurance to cover their liabilities. That is the reason why this afternoon I released the Labour media statement, urging the Government to include the home warranty insurance scheme in the Building Act review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI support two of our largest city councils\u2014the Wellington City Council and the Christchurch City Council\u2014and a number of other submitters who have called upon the Government to introduce a home warranty insurance scheme. As pointed out by the Home Owners and Buyers Association of New Zealand, if responsible parties for defective building work have gone out of business, died, or left the country, the consumer is left exposed and faces having to cover the costs. The building law should be amended to offer greater protections, not reduce them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI turn to the fourth point, with regard to company failures. Concerns were expressed about companies that are formed for the sole purpose of a single building project and are then liquidated as soon as the work is completed, leaving no legal entity that can be directly held to account for defective work that is later discovered. As it stands, the bill fails to offer consumers any effective remedies when left in the lurch by a $1 shell company, despite the fact that the building sector\u2019s failure rate is higher than the rate of all businesses before 2003 and after 2008. Even legitimate contracting and subcontracting firms have often ceased to exist by the time defects have come to light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFifthly\u2014a product\u2019s warranty\u2014we welcome the introduction of a responsibility provision for product manufacturers or suppliers. It is widely accepted that the leaky buildings saga was primarily caused by the use of inappropriate building products or systems, or incompetence in, or lack of adequate oversight of, their application. The Minister pointed his finger at Standards New Zealand and he must be correct, given he is so experienced. However, given the complexity of the issue, particularly where the prescribed compliance with the building code is often difficult to establish, the provision in its current form fails to address the problem adequately. In addition, it is essential that building product manufacturers do not escape liability because the specified installation requirements are impractical. All materials must be able to be installed on site, using good carpentry, joinery, plastering, or similar trade skills, to reasonable tolerances and without the demand for laboratory-type conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELastly, there are also drafting issues in terms of how the provisions in this bill will be implemented. Many provisions in this bill are yet to be prescribed or determined by regulation, and without proper definition it is difficult to put the clauses into context, which hinders the interpretation and implementation of the Act. There are other deficiencies in this bill\u2014for example, the practicality of prescribing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002269bb2e0b887e49d496dc7f4bed7e5058\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269bb2e0b887e49d496dc7f4bed7e5058\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but his time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022 data-id=\u00226ee5dd5362954d30b4c6f40f0006e251\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ee5dd5362954d30b4c6f40f0006e251\u0022\u003ESTEFFAN BROWNING (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). The Green Party opposes this bill. We are not against the general premise behind the bill and the aims of it\u2014the consumer protection aspects\u2014and we look forward to a much better bill in the future that will address those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EThe bill has brought up some things for me, from when I was an owner-builder. I have watched from the side because it is not the area that I normally work in, but I have noticed the flip-flops through the building regulations and also through the materials aspect. The Minister for Building and Construction mentioned earlier what has gone. We had gone to kiln-dried. We had had the chemical issue, and we have gone back to that. I wanted to use, as you might expect, fairly natural products. I wanted to use naturally resilient timbers and the like, and then some of those got ruled out, I would say, by the industry groups that somehow managed to organise that we had a Pinus radiata - focused industry, which clearly led us into trouble later on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to when we get into ensuring that there are consumer protections. We can have a really good relook at the same time at the materials that are allowed in building and the style of construction. I have got friends who are fairly creative in their building styles, and, of course, some of the regulations, some of the legislation that we look for, can actually constrain that. I think that the building law needs to have a fairly wide provision, and in a way, in some aspects, this bill may allow for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EUnderlying all of that, regardless of the bill\u2019s breadth and its creativity, it has got to have a strong consumer protection part. That is just inadequate in this bill. It might be that the liabilities that are not adequately covered in this bill\u2014that may be difficult for some creative home building\u2014need to be addressed through future legislation. I look forward to that at some time. I find it appalling that at the moment in New Zealand so much is based around the Fletcher\u2019s-type products and the Hardie\u2019s-type products\u2014the sheet sizes and everything\u2014to suit a vested interest, rather than maybe around what could really happen from a localised building and timber industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EWe are importing as well, at the moment, through the free-trade agreements, Chilean plywood that does not even meet the standard\u2014it is going up. There is not enough work being done around that. I ask the Minister whether it going to be addressed by this bill. Are we going to deal with the fact that we are allowing it? We have got a massive timber industry, and wood processors are going to the wall, and yet we are importing\u2014because of being open to competition, it appears\u2014Chilean timber into New Zealand and Australian timber into New Zealand, when we already have the same species. If there is something unique and beneficial for New Zealanders, for New Zealand home builders, and there is other construction that cannot be done here, you might say fine, let us look at that. But to be opening up our borders, allowing rubbish material to come in, and pushing our own timber processes out is concerning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228999c217-9b84-4577-b9b1-bcc8e9c7a395\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to a better bill. The Green Party was supportive of this bill through to the Local Government and Environment Committee. We seriously wanted to hear what the options were and what the possibilities were. There are some good aspects in the bill, but, obviously, we have spotted the things that are not adequate. We want better consumer protection and we will be opposing this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c508ed5e4dce4b45b5a240a46aaaf2bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c508ed5e4dce4b45b5a240a46aaaf2bf\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E The Building Amendment Bill (No 4) has a number of important provisions in it that will be beneficial to the building industry and, most important, to those New Zealanders who are contemplating building, or building, their home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e71034e4ec4403fa8f6cddc30ed2752\u0022\u003ERaymond Huo\u003C/span\u003E: Be a bit more passionate!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ebc5a928094432bf65ebed3cc338d6\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite says \u201CBe more passionate about it.\u201D Well, actually, we are, and that is why Maurice Williamson has brought this bill to the House and why the Local Government and Environment Committee has worked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261ff178297284154b8e7361ef57cf643\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: There is no more passionate member than Maurice Williamson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab27996a3c3f4874a539faaca3bf976f\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: There is, clearly, no more passionate Minister than Maurice, but this is a good bill, because it makes some pretty sensible changes to the Building Act. It reduces compliance costs. Who has not heard of a call to reduce compliance costs? Compliance costs for the sake of compliance costs\u2014they are going. It reduces complexity and reduces delays by reducing reliance on building consent authorities. That is good news, whatever way you look at it. It will make building contractors more accountable by requiring that they disclose information, and that disclosure will contain information about the legal status of the contractor\u2014whether they are operating under a limited liability company or not. They will have to disclose the people who will carry out the work and their track record\u2014their work history, dispute history, skills, and qualifications\u2014and what, if any, financial back-up or insurance they have to cover the cost of fixing any faults, should they be found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EOther provisions in this excellent bill protect consumers by requiring written contracts for most residential building work, and information in a contract could include the parties to the contract and the dispute resolution\u2014how they are going to get around anything if there is a dispute. There are a number of aspects to this bill that do nothing but improve the safety of building work for New Zealanders, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u002293108b5cb36841b08d51c2ca340c7fc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293108b5cb36841b08d51c2ca340c7fc8\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on behalf of New Zealand First in the third reading of the Building Amendment Bill (No 4). Was it not interesting listening to the speech of the Minister for Building and Construction, Maurice Williamson, defending the indefensible of the 1990s and the leaky building situation that we now have in this country? The Minister said: \u201COh, nothing to do with us, nothing to do with the Government, nothing to do with the Minister\u2014that was Standards New Zealand\u2019s problem, not ours.\u201D He omitted to mention that Standards New Zealand is a Crown entity\u2014it is a Crown entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238f1cac377da4d85946d4b1e256daac8\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Independent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227046a3ef7d748d195d2273d705fe570\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: It is autonomous, but it is still a Crown entity. It has three out of its seven board members appointed by the Minister of Commerce, Minister. Three of the seven board members are ministerial appointments. It does have accountability. The current chair was announced by Minister of Commerce Simon Power, when he was a Minister. The Crown does have oversight of that entity in terms of what it sets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ECertainly, Minister, back in the 1990s under the National watch\u2014and, sure, it may have inherited the building legislation review in 1991 from the former Labour Government, but your Government in the 1990s allowed it to continue to pass into law. That saw, as a result, reduced standards in the 1990s, which then saw Standards New Zealand allowing reduced standards in the building code, which then saw materials such as kiln-dried timber and monolithic cladding being used, which then saw $30 billion and rising of New Zealand property ending up in leaky building situations. The Minister has said: \u201CWell, we should also just blame that on Carters and Fletcher\u2019s, which convinced Standards New Zealand to allow the kiln-dried timber.\u201D Well, that is all very well, Minister, but what are you now doing about that situation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Education this year announced it has $1.5 billion worth of leaky schools throughout New Zealand\u2014many hundreds of leaky schools throughout New Zealand. It has entered into a court case against James Hardie Industries about monolithic cladding throughout New Zealand schools. But the Minister mentioned tonight that Carters and Fletcher\u2019s provided the kiln-dried timber. Well, Minister, what are you doing about chasing Carters and Fletcher\u2019s to get some payback on all that kiln-dried timber that is now rotting in the schools of New Zealand, rotting in the hospitals of New Zealand, rotting in the public buildings of New Zealand, rotting in the defence and other ministry buildings of New Zealand, and rotting in the homes of good, average New Zealand Kiwis, whose houses are rotting around them? What are you doing, Minister, about chasing the likes of Carters and Fletcher\u2019s, which you stated tonight were responsible for it? You are doing nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333837ce17e642dc882d77bd2304c872\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am not doing nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204bb9dc6e6294de3a2184b61f0450210\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no, no, sorry. The Minister is doing nothing. The Minister is doing nothing. It is all very well to point the finger at Carters and Fletcher\u2019s. Minister, please go and chase those people and hold them to account for the $30 billion or $40 billion or $50 billion, perhaps, that it is going to end up costing for leaky buildings right across New Zealand\u2019s commercial, public, and private sectors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EI will carry on with this particular bill and why New Zealand First is not supporting it. You can drive a bus through half of this. For instance, under the exemptions it says that demolition of a detached building is maybe permitted. The complete demolition of a building that is detached and is not more than three storeys does not require a consent; you can just knock it down. The member for North Shore sitting over there might be asked this question in her electorate of the North Shore\u2014I wonder what the people in Devonport, who have a particular affinity to heritage, might be thinking when\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd70fe6497e548209682e38f07bb6fe9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s a fossil!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea8f2ac18854f5092021cbf92c3ec17\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, not that heritage; I am thinking of younger heritage than that member. What will the people of Devonport be thinking when, for instance, under this bill demolition of a building under three storeys is permitted with no problems at all? So, basically, in Devonport a heritage building\u2014it could be an outhouse or something, or an old stable; it could be a lovely historic building that currently must have a consent from the local authority to be demolished\u2014could be pulled down. Imagine the impact on heritage buildings throughout New Zealand as a result of that, when people can basically just say: \u201COh, we don\u2019t need that particular building out there any more. Let\u2019s just pull it down.\u201D Under the current situation, if it has heritage value, it will be covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWhen you look at all the other exemptions, which include porches and verandas, carports, retaining walls, fences and hoardings, decks, platforms, bridges, and boardwalks not exceeding 1.5 metres\u2014all sorts of things where there are structures. Again, you get back to situations where\u2014we all remember what happened at Cave Creek with the collapse of that particular deck. It was shown, in that very sad situation, that inadequate skills and materials had been used in terms of that particular deck construction. But in this situation where, basically, so many of these things\u2014and this is including exemptions for alterations to non-residential buildings such as shops, offices, libraries, factories, warehouses, churches, or schools. So schools are also now exempt from such building work, because they are categorised alongside offices, libraries, and other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAgain, do we have a situation where some alterations are done in a school and they say: \u201CWell, this was a school that didn\u2019t need a consent. We didn\u2019t have to go to the local authority to check whether it was permitted.\u201D? It is done and then something happens in that school and they say: \u201CGosh, how on earth did the legislation go through that exempted schools from requiring consents of this order?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EMarquees and tents of 100 square metres will not require anything from any authority. They can be put up\u2014100-square-metre marquees or tents. Those are major structures, and I know from having been involved in many community events that some of those marquees are very, very significant. When they are put up\u2014and they are often put up in perilous situations, on sloping areas, for public events and all that sort of thing\u2014they certainly do need and require the scrutiny of an independent authority at times to check that they have been constructed in the right manner. Are we going to have a situation again where a large marquee\u2014a 100-square-metre marquee\u2014is put up by just any old Joe Bloggs without any independent authority checking that it has been put up adequately? And then we find a large number of people gathered at an event, whether it is a wedding function or some other public gathering, and then we find that the structure fails. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis bill is all about providing loopholes and exemptions and lowering the standards in New Zealand. We do want to reduce costs to consumers in New Zealand, of course. We do want to reduce expense to consumers and the public of New Zealand, but not at the expense of the safety of those structures. It is very regrettable that, really, if this bill was properly and independently analysed\u2014it is opening up a huge can of worms for future potential risk to New Zealanders. It is opening up a situation where shonky jerry-builders can, for instance, be fined $2,000 if they commit an offence in terms of the prescribed disclosure information and checklist\u2014a $2,000 fine. Or, if they commit an offence under subsection (3), it is up to a $20,000 fine. Well, is that not ridiculous? Those could be large, large constructions. The builders do not do it. They provide some sort of shonky-looking certificate that makes out that they are legitimate. They are self-regulating. They are not controlled by any authority in terms of what they are doing, and then they are subject to only a $20,000 fine if they are caught out. Again, this is opening up a situation of cowboy building in New Zealand, cowboy controls in New Zealand, and self-regulation where it will basically be a free-for-all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe National Government will rue the day that in 2013 it brought in this bill\u2014as it did the leaky homes in the 1990s. It will be leaky homes and leaky buildings revisited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c4eac455d0954b89ab2eb6b0adec5a95\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Building Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; M\u0101ori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 11; New Zealand First 7; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221aa5060420d74233a170fc6961bf4cfd\u0022\u003EFinancial Reporting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e80794e2472244558c0a653fb8be024f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a032de61b4e84900a0f798132a698cc4\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00226aef5b2435ca4df79d78efd9cb441f53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aef5b2435ca4df79d78efd9cb441f53\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, it is a pleasure to give a speech in the Chamber when you, such a venerable individual with such great experience, are in the Chair. This is one of those rare moments in this Parliament, colleagues, where both sides agree on a pretty substantial bill\u2014one that is designed on the one hand to create a high degree of transparency for business where it is needed and where it is in the public interest, and on the other hand to not be so burdensome and onerous, especially for those smaller enterprises, depending on their agreement, in terms of compliance costs. I refer to Part 1 of the bill, the Financial Reporting Bill, in terms of clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, where it talks about the various financial reporting standards, auditing standards, and assurance standards. We agree with and will be supporting this bill. It is appropriate. The aims are trying to streamline reporting procedures, cut compliance costs, and bring together a whole series of principles that will aid business but also aid those who are attempting to get information from business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ECould I touch just for a moment, given the nature of the purpose clause, on where it talks repeatedly about standards and where it talks about, in this part, transparency. We agree that this is a good bill\u2014the Labour Party has contributed admirably to this bill\u2014but we question a couple of things. We agree and we know the Government has acted in good faith in terms of its promotion of standards and transparency within this piece of legislation, but I have got to say that it is in stark contrast to a number of other issues around a lack of transparency or standards that this Government has been involved in, whether it be the financial deals around Rio Tinto, where $30 million was given away to a multibillion-dollar multinational company, allegedly to protect jobs\u2014a botched negotiation where no security was asked for or guarantees sought to protect those jobs. We found out, of course, that the Minister in charge of those negotiations, the Hon Bill English, Minister of Finance, did not have the intelligence to even ask for a guarantee around those jobs\u2014low standards, low transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn fact, there was very little transparency around that deal, as the Government firstly left it to the Meridian Energy board and then leapt over the top of the Meridian Energy board without actually telling the board that it was doing a side deal, and gave away not only the kitchen sink but the kitchen as well, and $30 million was thrown in for zero gain. So when it comes to issues of standards and transparency, we are glad that these principles are right up front in this piece of legislation, but I would hope that the Minister of Commerce might have a word with his colleagues in other portfolios to bring the same level of standards and transparency to other parts of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf we look at other transactions like Solid Energy, the Government was completely asleep at the wheel. There was no transparency around the fact that that company was driven into the ground by this Government because this Government will have no transparency, no ministerial inquiry, and no select committee inquiry. They were all blocked. The last port of call\u2014thank goodness, we live in hope\u2014is the Auditor-General, who is still looking at the need for an inquiry. But, again, there is no transparency and no standard of behaviour around that particular transaction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe look at the Chorus transaction. Again, it was done behind closed doors, botched completely\u2014a very low standard there\u2014and absolutely stuffed up to the point where the Government, rather than\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e82f3a1600cb49b6a600fdfc48d09bd4\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Your area of expertise, botching and stuffing up. You\u2019re an expert. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf525e9d3ea8423dbfe527846739b709\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: That was, for the uninitiated, the \u201CVenus fly-trap of the New Zealand Parliament\u201D, one Maggie Barry, who, every time she sort of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022144d2c718fba4400baa7c83cc339b61a\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: What are you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08f14fb25c34cafa52a1edeb8631551\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: That interjection may well have been sponsored by Jim Beam and Johnnie Walker; I do not know. It is late at night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223af64efb2fe4486a8ba41a4919ad7307\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Are you a heavy drinker, Clayton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db94e4a6a614eacb1487477dee6d8d4\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: She may be too close to the fertiliser, the nitrogen, or the compost\u2014who knows? Gardening leave is appropriate. Actually, gardening leave is appropriate as we talk about the lack of transparency around Solid Energy, because we know that the chief executive officer has seen a lot of gardening leave for a long time, on about $300k or $400k, which is something I suggest that member on her salary of\u2014what is an MP\u2019s salary, $150k-odd\u2014has actually been on. She has actually been on gardening leave since she has been elected to this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut, anyway, getting back to the bill, because it is appropriate, as the budgie chirps away in the background over there\u2014that was a botched negotiation. We moved to Chorus, of course. There was no transparency or high accounting standards around that deal\u2014none at all, zero. There was no transparency around that deal, to the point where the Government is in such a bind that even though it is the bastion of the private sector, it will not actually look at enforcing the contract, as you would in a private sector situation. Last time I checked, where you negotiated better than the other bloke and you won the deal, and the other bloke or the other person or the other party could not come up with the goods, you enforced the contract. You did not wave the white flag of surrender and say you would bail them out or nationalise them or take an equity escape or interfere with the regulatory process in respect of the Commerce Commission. But, oh no, these guys do anything\u2014these guys do anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe would like some transparency. We would like some transparency, even from old \u201CVenus\u201D at the back. We would like some transparency around those sorts of transactions as well. That is what we would like some transparency and standards on, because the difficulty with this legislation, even though it is good legislation, is that this Parliament can be seen by those in the commercial sector to pontificate to them about the standards they should adhere to and the levels of transparency they should adhere to. But the Government does not practise what it preaches in other areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bacdf9045641449da4f58b0f1498f842\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Go on, sit down. Spare us all, idiot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230e245bc39b54db8b41bf84025d1aa68\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I think you might have to get the Xanax for that member. She may need a wee bit of help. I say this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65c25dc99ed4105b3d6b391cd3f4dd1\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Bring out the Roundup\u2014spread it on your hair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213a4c6a466d64bfb8f794568c2b78e22\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Keep going, it is great. It shows that member for the inept member she is. Even this late at night people will be picking up on that. So this is a good piece of legislation. It actually deals with cutting down many of the compliance costs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283b8026554a417582009a52b289e804\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Down to stump size, like yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280572ea8a7e349bcb1c4f258978d5ff7\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3639df4448404da06208c1657b8dfa\u0022\u003EMaggie Barry\u003C/span\u003E: Down to stump size, like yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205836224c6d24aa0a5b643790358a2b0\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is a brilliant interjection. That is an intellectual effort from somebody who has been too close, I think, to a variety of garden substances\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d500e958c86749998c7ef53d1a0130c7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94c915654f44d7882c262dfa8cffea7\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014over the years. It is all right, I do not need protection from her. Good God help me if I did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing I want to touch on is in respect of charities. The Commerce Committee spent quite a bit of time looking at the level of compliance that charitable organisations would have to go to. To be fair to both sides, we looked at this with a great deal of seriousness because although we wanted a generic set of standards and standards to apply to financial information in accordance with generally accepted accounting practice, and currently there are no requirements for the content of this financial information, we were\u2014and I know the Minister appreciates this\u2014very careful to look that we were not burdening or requiring an onerous set of arrangements in respect of charities, given the nature of the work they do. They are not businesses. They raise money for good causes. Members of Parliament on all sides are involved in many of those charities, and we did not want money going in an onerous way from the public good, if you like, into a myriad of bureaucratic and administrative compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think it does strike the right balance. I think we had very good feedback from the submitters in the charitable sector, but it is an area that I think many of us on both sides were concerned about. Public money, private money, and charitable money, of course, are three different pots there, and there is a requirement\u2014a high requirement\u2014on each of those areas in our community to have appropriate financial records and appropriate standards. My hope is that these financial standards will embolden people to increase their donations to the charitable sector, knowing, of course, that there is belt and braces\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc0312c12e4497b915c9f66308917ed\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Donations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4b42af23c74eed9d1abf22fe309a08\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014donations, indeed\u2014and appropriate financial standards and transparency around the charitable sector, as there generally is, even prior to this bill. That gives people the confidence to give, hopefully, in a greater way and to support those entities in a greater way. I would be interested whether the Minister is prepared to make a couple of comments of reassurance, perhaps, around that charitable sector to get on the record what exactly we are striving for, and to give some confidence to that sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere is very little, if any, politics in this bill because it does have bipartisan support. I look forward to the Committee stage as we work our way through this legislation\u2014the purpose clauses and the other clauses. I know my colleague Dr Clark will have some interesting comments to make in respect of the Inland Revenue Department and its role in this. I look forward to some of the very interesting comments of members opposite. I am sure they will make a wonderful contribution, as they have in the pre-emptive stages of this piece of legislation, rather than making the odd inane comment as a few vapours whizz through past the back row over that side. I am sure it is a long night tonight, but I think we should give this bill due consideration, and we should act in an appropriate way to support this legislation, given that it amends around 80 Acts. I look forward to this debate continuing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00223d7ed5c11a1d49a49aef0711480a4bd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d7ed5c11a1d49a49aef0711480a4bd2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Because members on this side of the House are absolutely convinced of the merit of reducing compliance costs and our rhetoric, unlike that of the other side of the House, is not inversely related to reality, it is a pleasure to stand and support the Financial Reporting Bill. Why should we support it? Because it is premised on the notion that there should be discretion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThose entities that have shareholders seeking to opt out of unnecessarily onerous compliance arrangements should be able to make that choice. However, for those that are of a size where systemic damage might flow or where significant impacts would negatively fall on the country\u2019s reputation, or, indeed, on the reputation of our commercial sector, there is a range of arrangements and compliance obligations that should be adhered to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI was wondering, though, whether we can use this bill in relation to, as my colleague said earlier, the defective Chorus deal. I think you can illuminate dry legal text by looking at a real case example. We have a case with this particular company where disclosure of an adequate nature probably was not made when the company entered into the defective deal conjured up by the Associate Minister of Finance Steven Joyce. It actually took Sue Chetwin and a host of activists in the information and communications technology sector to actually point out that a company known as Chorus failed to fully disclose that the equation it was using to cover the costs of the broadband infrastructure roll-out was deeply flawed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs a consequence, the Minister who negotiated that flawed, defective deal with Chorus\u2014and it was worsened by the Prime Minister saying that it was technically insolvent, or words to that effect. An outrageous statement. I wonder whether those members will themselves show any responsibility in terms of a financial reporting stance, which they might reject, given that 40 percent\u2014a catastrophic failure\u2014of the equity value of that entity has gone down the proverbial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo there is an example where those people who sit on the various risk and audit committees and lord it over the rest of New Zealand have failed, actually, to meet the existing set of regulations. So I shudder to think how on earth they are going to cope with this enhanced set of regulations, because we have all learnt that when you have poor transparency and poor compliance with reporting provisions\u2014as we saw with South Canterbury Finance and a host of other financial companies that soon became political calamities\u2014people lose dough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo I think an area where the Financial Reporting Bill perhaps could have gone a bit further was its treatment of overseas-owned entities in New Zealand. I look forward to hearing the speech from my colleague from \u014Ctepoti\u2014Dunedin\u2014where I was yesterday spreading pixie dust on behalf of my great party, with the chief executive officers of the various ports of New Zealand, convincing them that\u2014well, that is another matter, which is, really, electoral victory. I will just pass by that for the moment so I can return to the bill. But I look forward to my colleague talking about how this bill could perhaps enhance and improve the accountabilities that should be sheeted home to the banks, currently owned by foreigners, and a host of others\u2014largely the insurance companies\u2014but taihoa, help is on the way in that regard. And the power companies, as we speak, disappear further down into the deep foreign pockets of the owners that are buying as we ensure the wheels of democracy grind on adequately tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI think that the public needs to realise that when we are dealing with this bill, we are not talking only about requirements to account to the existing shareholders but we are also talking about the entities operating in our country and not necessarily owned by our countrymen and countrywomen. If there is an area where there is a glaring omission, it lies in the space of whether or not those foreign-owned entities are paying their way. Are they paying their way, or are they fleecing our system, our taxpayers, and indeed, in some cases, New Zealand employees? And are they running a double set of accounts\u2014a set of economic accounts that sits on their bench table overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a882f0b39842d99835950fa6c3f11a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a882f0b39842d99835950fa6c3f11a\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairman. I rise to speak to this bill, the Financial Reporting Bill. We in the Labour Party will be supporting this bill because the principles that it is based upon are ones that we can agree with. It is delightful to stand in this Committee and to be supporting a bill that is actually incredibly important, and might be likened to the oil that greases the wheels of commerce. It is so important to have transparency and clear, concise, and easily understood reporting requirements so that information can flow to stakeholders and so that good decision-making ensues and our country prospers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill itself really has three key components. One is increased public accountability. An entity needs to be accountable to the public if it is effectively owned by taxpayers and ratepayers. That includes Government departments, Crown entities, and local authorities. I guess there is some irony, which will not be lost on those following the debate at home, in that this bill is designed to increase accountability across Government departments, Crown entities, and local authorities. Not long ago we passed legislation about privatising our energy assets. There is a referendum coming up. The postal ballot is starting tomorrow, I think, on this same topic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat particular debate involved not only selling down New Zealand\u2019s best revenue-generating assets\u2014taking them away from taxpayer ownership and putting them into the hands of a few\u2014but also reducing transparency. In that legislation, the Official Information Act used to apply in respect of State-owned enterprises. Members of the public could request information about them. There was a level of transparency there that was required. They were required to appear before select committees to be scrutinised, so that the taxpayer interest was being looked after. Now, even though they are to be majority State-owned\u2014only just; 51 percent\u2014a lower level of scrutiny is to apply. So here in this bill we have the flip side of that. We say again that scrutiny is important. So there will be no irony lost there, I am sure, in the Government\u2019s other actions, which we know were done for politically expedient reasons and were based on an ideology of selling off, privatising the gains, and socialising the losses. That is something we have seen so often from this National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EReturning to the bill, the scrutiny that is going to apply will apply to the bigger end of town where there is a public interest. For example, an entity that takes deposits from the public or that holds assets in a fiduciary capacity for broad groups of outsiders\u2014like banks, insurers, mutual funds, and those kinds of things\u2014will be required to report transparently. That is a good thing. Those who receive donations and bequests from the public will be required to have increased transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere is a test in the bill about economic significance. I guess that boils down to the idea that size matters. There are some large entities that ought to report because their failure could have a regional economic impact. That does apply, I guess, to the cases raised by my colleagues just before. The failure of those entities could have a regional impact that could be quite negative. We think there of Christchurch and the lack of progress that is being made. There are other examples, of course. Down my way, there is a proposal to gut the Invermay Agricultural Centre, take the scientists out of Otago, and, well, just destroy it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6b8d37e60a47408da6f9b98133fea6\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Somehow transplant it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206111450989c4d9eb67431d35554df07\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and somehow transplant a highly functional scientific organisation somewhere else when the staff do not want to transfer and have said they will not transfer. That is another example of a failure in the regions. That is despite Steven Joyce\u2019s rhetoric about needing to have strong institutions in the regions to support business growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo there is some deep, deep irony in passing a bill that talks about the importance of economic entities to regions and the importance and economic significance of transparency when there are deals being done that are anything but transparent, in terms of the business case for Invermay. That is a very, very good example of where it has not been made public, where information has been withheld, and where it seems that an ideological position is driving something, rather than something that is genuinely in the public interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe third criterion in the bill is around separation. That separation principle requires that owners or members of an entity are likely to need financial statements if they do not manage the entity. So all of these things make sense at a fundamental level. It reduces compliance costs where they are not required\u2014where they are small entities and where shareholders agree that they do not need comprehensive accounts to the extent that they are actually just simply about compliance. Then there is a clear requirement that where it does matter\u2014where entities are public, large, or managing public funds\u2014there is a higher level of compliance required. That is a very sensible step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe know that good markets make excellent servants and poorly regulated markets make bad masters. That is the basic principle that I think sits behind this kind of legislation\u2014good regulation, and making sure things flow well. We think of the global financial crisis. If there had been greater transparency there, some of the worst edges of that, and perhaps the whole financial crisis, might have been avoided, certainly in respect of the hedge funds involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESimplification of reporting processes is something that creates efficiencies, and that is good when our businesses and our country spend so much time on compliance. The Government opposite talks often about being business-friendly. Certainly, we see that when it comes to one or two of its mates and in respect of Skycity, and we think of the casino deal where Skycity is laughing all the way to the bank. It has got all the extra pokie machines, is building a casino off the back of problem gambling, and will have profits for years to come, all because the Government had cornered itself through putting itself in a non-transparent deal and committing to getting something through before negotiating the deal to its end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe think of Chorus and what is coming up there. It has all the hallmarks of another deal by the Government for the big end of town. We think of Rio Tinto, where money was handed over but was not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c17b801b0d7e488ea87247e8e0fd024e\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Thrown at them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d86fff2f51e426194240760f3ae4a0a\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thrown at them\u2014money was thrown at them, but no jobs guarantee was asked for, so restructuring began the next day. That is the kind of shoddy deal that this Government does with big business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut all the while, small business is suffering in New Zealand. This Government has passed so much compliance regulation legislation that has disadvantaged small business. We think of the child support payments that employers may now be required to enforce\u2014handling private information about their employees, which could lead to personal grievances in the worst possible situations; information that it was not previously thought to be appropriate for business owners to have to handle or to have responsibility for\u2014and all the other compliance responsibilities. It has just been lumped upon them. There was no consultation. That went through in a rushed Budget process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e9ad1786ab4f05b5f5a0e930bc1835\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: No transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8312819f66545fa9eacd897cad1d7e5\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There was no transparency. Again, we think of the paper boy tax. There are now compliance requirements that were not there before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that keeps heaping compliance on small business, but then it talks about tax simplification. The Minister of Revenue, Todd McClay, has talked about consulting on tax simplification. Well, it has been done overseas. There are plenty of working examples. This Government is big on talk when it comes to things that would support small business, but very, very, very poor on action. We simply just do not see it. This is a Government that is not a friend of small business, and that is a shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat perhaps goes some way towards explaining why 2,500 fewer small businesses are being created every year under this Government. This is a Government that is failing\u2014is failing\u2014to create jobs, is failing to create new businesses. It is no wonder that it has the worst economic record of any Government in New Zealand in the last 50 years. It has an appalling economic record. It has an appalling record on jobs. It is a Government that should hang its head in shame. I guess I am at least comforted that some helpful pieces of legislation, some sensible pieces of legislation\u2014no doubt pushed by officials\u2014are sneaking their way through. This is one small step toward helping to make our economy a little bit more efficient and to take out some of the unnecessary compliance, and that is why we are very pleased to support it on this side of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EFinally, I would just say that we wish there could be more of this kind of thing\u2014less of the deals done behind closed doors with big business, and more of the cutting of compliance. That is what we in Labour would like to see. We are sick to death of the additional burden put on businesses. They say that something like 15 percent of the revenue for the smallest businesses in New Zealand\u2014typically, 15 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00220b01cb0646b84e42a470990e4ad377bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b01cb0646b84e42a470990e4ad377bb\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for calling me, and I hope you are feeling well this evening after your chocolate pudding at 7 o\u2019clock. I chose the fresh fruit salad, and I can say that 3\u00BD hours later I feel absolutely excellent, but I am sure that the heaviness will be dwelling upon you right now, knowing how heavy that chocolate pudding was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EHaving said that, we come to the Financial Reporting Bill\u2014[Interruption] Because this is quite a dry piece of legislation, and because it is heading towards 20 to 11 at night and some of us have been here since 9 o\u2019clock this morning, I guess that those of us who have been here since 9 o\u2019clock and who are still here at 20 to 11 at night do have the right to have a little bit of levity to try to ease the pain. But\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdb348143f44571a9db95e9c80a64e7\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It didn\u2019t work for Maggie Barry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a07475ec10f948178befe2dca109f87d\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it did not work for Maggie Barry. No, it did not. She had to leave\u2014she had to leave. But, anyway, New Zealand First supports the Financial Reporting Bill. This is large bill that covers a lot of ground. It has had the scrutiny that it merits. But New Zealand First is satisfied that this bill represents useful improvement and will deliver actual benefits to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EFinancial reporting is at the heart of business accountability. Effective and thorough financial reporting is fundamental to public confidence in financial matters. Financial reporting must have integrity. This bill sets the ground rules for financial reporting, and strengthening the reporting regime at this time makes sense. The bill reduces compliance costs while strengthening accountability and transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe also note that under this bill charities will be required to prepare financial performance statements in accordance with accepted accounting practices. We believe that it is only right that New Zealanders do receive adequate financial reports from the very many charities that New Zealanders are so willing to give to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EOverall, New Zealand First considers that the bill strikes a reasonable balance in terms of reporting requirements and does not impose excessive or burdensome reporting requirements. We see this bill as enhancing New Zealand\u2019s economic performance, which is a good thing. This is because a clear and effective set of financial reporting ground rules will establish the right context for organisations and enterprises to operate within. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EFor these reasons New Zealand First supports this bill. It is creating credible financial reporting requirements for New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c10f1f345a4549da8275ca2d40e63487\u0022\u003EPart 2  External Reporting Board, standards, and provisions that apply to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022341c4080f6704a538a46d43a9d6c6bbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022341c4080f6704a538a46d43a9d6c6bbc\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E In this part there are a number of points to be made, and I am certainly keen for the Minister of Commerce, should he feel moved to take a call, to explain to the Committee the rationale behind the substantial Supplementary Order Paper that has appeared before us tonight, in order to provide the Committee with some of the information that lies behind it. I think that presumably within this Supplementary Order Paper lies an important rationale and explanation as to why\u2014particularly for the overseas companies\u2014we have moved to the position that the Minister has taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt is also important to say that this Financial Reporting Bill\u2014which has taken some time to go through the committee\u2014has been a really substantial piece of work and there has been a lot of work done by the Commerce Committee on this. I would like to acknowledge all the officials here tonight for the work that has been done, and also the good, solid work done by the committee generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt is actually 20 years old, this piece of legislation that is being replaced, and it is an amendment to 80 pieces of legislation. So it is quite a substantial piece of work, and it has taken quite some time to move through. It is part of a number of pieces of legislation that have come before the Commerce Committee on the reform of financial accountability and around the importance of transparency. I know that my colleagues have talked quite a lot about both of those things tonight\u2014transparency and accountability\u2014and I will certainly be doing that myself. But I think it is absolutely an acknowledgment that moving these things forward in this modernised piece of legislation is really important and it should be acknowledged for all the work, submissions, and considerations that have gone into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIn talking about transparency and accountability though, I think it is really important that, if we are being serious about these things\u2014and I am sure the Minister in the chair would acknowledge that\u2014we have to practise what we preach. We are seeing, time and time again, examples where there are questions being raised about the transparency of particular contractual arrangements and the transparency of practices that are emerging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EChorus has been mentioned a number of times tonight. I do want to touch on that, obviously, because there is a piece of legislation that underpinned the demerger of Telecom, that then turned into a contract for Chorus, which has been rolling out over the last couple of years. But since then we have had a decision by the Commerce Commission that the Government and Chorus did not like, then we have had a review instigated by a Minister that has questions around its legality and is now under judicial review, and subsequently we have another inquiry, which was announced last week, into the viability of Chorus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAll of those things have taken place as a result of a lack of transparency, and a potential lack of the disclosure of information that should have been made right from the very beginning, whether it was through the demerger process, the legislative process, or the contractual process. All of those things have resulted in a situation that is costing the taxpayers more money through reviews and inquiries, through more officials\u2019 time, through legal bills, and through all kinds of procedures, and impacting on the viability of a substantial infrastructure project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt all comes down to transparency and disclosure. It would seem to me that if we are going to be serious about the legislation that we are pushing through, which is about requiring accountability by companies to their shareholders and accountability to the taxpayers, then we have to practise what we preach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis particular instance, which I know is embarrassing to the Government, is going to be an increasing embarrassment to the Government\u2014in fact, it could be described as a running sore for the Government. This is going to go on and on, and ultimately the shareholders are going to be demanding accountability from their company, from Chorus, and the taxpayers are demanding accountability from the Government around the disclosure\u2014or the lack of disclosure\u2014around that accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI think what that all boils down to is that there is a disconnect between what the Government says it is doing and some of the good work that is actually being done through legislative processes. On this occasion the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Commerce, has presented to the Committee this reasonably fine piece of legislation that has had a lot of cross-party work done on it and agreement on it, but alongside that is a process that is running counter to it. I think the people listening to this at 10 to 11 at night, if they are listening, have got the right to ask how that can be, why that is, what is happening about it, and where the accountability is on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI do want to raise one other matter in this legislation, at clause 45, \u201CMeaning of specified not-for-profit entity\u201D. It is essentially around the threshold for determining a specified non-profit entity, which I think is one of the examples in this bill where there was very good work done and good listening and understanding of the impact of this legislation on the not-for-profit sector. It was important to ensure transparency and disclosure. But also it had to be acknowledged that for the 2,000 to 3,000 churches around New Zealand that had operating expenses, that being initially in the bill meant that they would have to have a much greater requirement for operating, for disclosure, and for the compliance\u2014and they rely hugely on voluntary treasurers and hugely on other voluntary people to meet the requirements of the bill as it stood originally\u2014they would have had to end up employing professional people, at great cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ESo I would like to commend the committee for the advice that it took and for the conclusions that it came to around this, where the compliance dropped so that it was not going to be such an onerous task for these organisations\u2014these 2,000 to 3,000 churches around New Zealand. I think that that was a very responsible outcome. There are still compliance requirements and that is extremely important, but I think that what it showed is that this bill, this particular bill, had the ability to be flexible and to recognise the importance of the not-for-profit sector, in particular, for the impact that it would have on churches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would ask that the Minister take a call to explain Supplementary Order Paper 376 and the rationale behind it, in terms of the overseas companies that carry on business in New Zealand and their requirement to file audited financial statements. It was proposed that there would be obligations removed if the New Zealand business had both total assets of no more than $60 million and total revenue of no more than $30 million. These amounts have been changed in this bill, through this rather large Supplementary Order Paper, to $20 million and $10 million respectively. I am curious and would like to know what the rationale is for that, and I just wonder whether the Minister will take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 393 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to the proposed amendments set on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in his name to clause 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ed36f5dbbb743139505b3d1e5011f63\u0022\u003EPart 3  Miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022782e20da6eab433b8f077a3264a61b7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022782e20da6eab433b8f077a3264a61b7b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 3, debate on clauses 49 to 60, includes schedules 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00227d1f4adc4e18479d86197d20d4e1187f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d1f4adc4e18479d86197d20d4e1187f\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E This part refers to the standards and provisions relating to auditor qualifications and access to information. I am sure members of the Committee would have looked at this part of the bill very closely and will be debating the finer points. I am interested to see whether anyone from the other side takes a call or whether the Minister of Commerce will get up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224733523009e14c65b43d16b71aac5497\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: They haven\u2019t so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224044b53ccf1b4b4a8edf38c5ce119dd3\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: They have not so far. They have not so far. They are a bit quiet on regulations that are designed to reduce compliance. They do not quite know what to say. It is a new experience for them, I suspect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259551e4b90d043d092faacad6d95154b\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Especially for John Banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c00e8ce3ae974964be56389d79469e45\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Especially\u2014especially for John Banks. The interesting thing about this one is that when we specify the qualifications of the auditor, as we see in clause 35, \u201CQualifications of auditor\u201D, they must be a chartered accountant, and so on, they must be a member of this organisation; the notice must be put in the Gazette, they must be eligible to act as an auditor in a country, State, or territory outside New Zealand, and so on and so forth\u2014all of these rules and regulations. They must be a fellow of this or that institution. It means nothing, at the end of the day, if no one listens to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn this bill, the Financial Reporting Bill, it is expected that businesses will comply, but the Government\u2019s own record on this stuff would send a very different message. We think of some of the examples of that. We think of the recent Earthquake Commission report that found huge failures\u2014huge failures. The Auditor-General found disastrous processes there. I will not rehearse all of the terrible things that were found in that process, but the Government dismissed it immediately. So we see a Government that says that it is above any kind of auditing, any kind of review of its work, and that arrogantly carries on as before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe think of the Law Society advice on the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) bill\u2014damning of the process. Why would you pass such an important piece of legislation under urgency? Why would you not have a process in place to review decisions? All of these things are basic, fundamental democratic processes that were obviated or not complied with by the Government. The Government arrogantly said that it would not agree with them, that it does not listen to them, and that they are talking a load of nonsense. This is the behaviour of a Government whose members say there has to be a standard for businesses, there has got to be a standard for citizens, but it is not for them. They are on their own level. They are out of touch, they are arrogant, and New Zealanders are getting sick of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe other example that springs to mind is the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme. We think back to that one. This Government may have lost New Zealand taxpayers $500 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffa4995b515d4377a1ccae7236bf746c\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd38c86a467d4261bfb512c1f4ccaa9d\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It could be up to $500 million, Mr Little, that was lost in the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme as a result of a failure\u2014an absolute and abysmal failure\u2014to monitor that process. The Minister of Finance did not ask to have regular updates. He basically signed a blank cheque. The scheme itself was a sensible scheme. It was put in with the right intentions in the nick of time to stop a run on the banks, and that was a very, very sensible thing to do. But thereafter, when the National Government took over, it did not monitor the scheme and the liability grew. One of the deposit takers had its balance sheet increased tenfold\u2014risky loans left, right, and centre\u2014but the Crown was guaranteeing it. It is no wonder that people were piling money into it, but that was at the expense of the New Zealand taxpayer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThen we had South Canterbury Finance. Everyone remembers that one. Its loan book blossomed. It bloomed with all this dodgy debt and again there was a failure of monitoring. The Minister of Finance had his head firmly in the sand. He did not ask for reports, Treasury did not ask for reports it could have got from the Reserve Bank to tell it how much that scheme was costing the New Zealand taxpayer over time, and they failed to put measures in place to stop those dodgy loan books growing. But that is a Government that has failed to monitor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIf we remember back, what happened next was that the Auditor-General\u2014again, the Auditor-General, the same one who wrote the Earthquake Commission report said there was a failure of process. What did this National Government do? Just as with the Earthquake Commission report it said: \u201CIt doesn\u2019t matter. We don\u2019t care. We\u2019re just going to carry on. We won\u2019t read it.\u201D That is John Key\u2019s favourite line. When he gets the police report on John Banks\u2019 conduct, he will not read the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is the kind of arrogance. Everyone else must comply. Everyone else must be audited, the auditing must be accurate and precise, and it must be done to these standards and those standards. But when it comes to the Government\u2019s own conduct, it is dismissive\u2014completely dismissive\u2014of the Auditor-General. In the case of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, there are a whole lot of anomalies there, and $500 million of taxpayer money was probably lost unnecessarily by this Government, but it would not hold an independent inquiry into that. It would not go further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa50d7805565459a9a0e2a6f31e7c22b\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to other Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002246785350436f475089cb9076b5b89e83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246785350436f475089cb9076b5b89e83\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to put a couple of questions that were raised with the Minister of Commerce in the first speech on Part 1 of the Financial Reporting Bill. I note that he has not taken a call in the hour that we have been debating this bill. I think there has been a bit of barracking from the other side, but no actual substantive speech about the legislation. The first question is in respect of the amendments in respect of charities, the amendments to the Charities Act 2005. I said previously that the Commerce Committee members, from both sides of the House, to be fair, laboured long and hard as we went through these provisions to ensure that there were appropriate standards and levels of transparency. Although we are all in favour of transparency and accountability and appropriate accounting standards for charities, we all acknowledge, I think, that many charities are made up vastly of volunteers, and many charities are of varying sizes and have varying capabilities in terms of administrative and accounting control functions. As I say, although we were keen to ensure that there were appropriate standards and levels of transparency, we were also keen to ensure that we were not overburdening charitable organisations with bureaucracy and with compliance costs, because many of our charities, such as the Cancer Society, the Salvation Army, and others, do pride themselves on the donations that are provided by the public, the vast majority of which go directly to the stakeholders that require it\u2014whether it be medical research, whether it be assisting those less fortunate\u2014and are not sucked up into onerous administrative requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI do note though in new section 42B in clause 77 that there are some very substantial penalties for those who fail to comply. It states: \u201CA charitable entity and every officer of the charitable entity commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $50,000 if\u2014(a) the financial statements of the charitable entity referred to \u2026 fail to comply\u201D\u2014with relevant standards, in summary\u2014\u201Cand the charitable entity or officer (as the case may be) knows, at the time that the financial statements accompany the annual return when it is sent or delivered under section 41, that the financial statements fail to so comply.\u201D No one would disagree with that in terms of somebody knowingly committing an offence and knowingly contravening not only the legislation but their obligations. But what I would like to hear from the Minister of Commerce is the view he has from the submissions, which presumably he has read, as we did on the Commerce Committee, as to whether he still believes that those penalties, substantial as they are, are pitched at the right level and are appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EFurther to that, and just as important, are the transitional provisions in clause 78(1) and (2)\u2014there have to be appropriate levels of transitional provisions. More so, I think, for the charitable sector. We had submissions from, I recall, churches and others. Many of the churches have individual entities. They are not one conglomeration; they are individual incorporated societies or entities around parishes, or whatever. For many of those organisations there will be a substantial transition to move to these standards\u2014even though, from memory, there was substantial support for them\u2014to further professionalise the financial standards and transparency of charities. It will not be as a business, if you like, with one entity transitioning across. It will be many entities and sub-entities within those charitable organisations. So I would be grateful if the Minister would look to take a call and in this Committee stage, just for the record in the future, give us some assurances around those two issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022efea9a2825774a24882f8baa8d64922f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efea9a2825774a24882f8baa8d64922f\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E Just a quick call on a couple of issues that have arisen. The member Clare Curran asked a question before about the size of Supplementary Order Paper 376. The Supplementary Order Paper is basically the revision-tracked version of the Financial Reporting Bill. There are one or two kind of Supplementary Order Paper - type amendments in there, and one of them is the point the member raised around the thresholds for large\u2014or not\u2014companies that are overseas-owned and operating here in New Zealand. So the size of the Supplementary Order Paper is no reflection of changes. In fact, there are not too many changes, as per the good work that the Commerce Committee did. I do acknowledge the fine work and the cooperation and acknowledgments from speakers about how we have got to this point and the very good ownership of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EJust one point on charities, which the member just asked about before\u2014yes, I am very aware of those issues, and the select committee also did good work. I think, in fact, that the committee itself raised the threshold from $40k to $125k for charities reporting, anyway. Actually, the professional organisations such as the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accounts and the Certified Practising Accountants are themselves undergoing quite a bit of educative work out in the voluntary sector for public good and social good, to ensure and to just try to alleviate some of the concerns that the member did raise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAnother point that was raised just in general conversation in regard to charities\u2014in fact, now there is the availability for organisations to have quite sophisticated and structured accounting packages online. Even though some of the members who have traditionally done some bookkeeping may not be all that comfortable working online with some of those cloud-type accounting packages, actually the ability for an organisation to produce quite robust, fair, and transparent accounts is now much more apparent than it was. But I do acknowledge the concerns. I have heard those, and I think the Commerce Committee also did a good example of those. We have to contrast that, though, with exactly what we have now, because some not-for-profit organisations actually do have some quite substantial assets, and it is only fair for those members who raise funds, or who donate or give to them, or who work for them that we do actually improve the current situation, which is more like do-it-yourself bookkeeping. There is no checking, really, of some of the robustness or the integrity of the accounts, as well-intentioned as many of them may be. As the previous member noted, the committee spent a lot of time on this and it came to pretty good conclusions, as is now reflected in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 376 and 393 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to insert new schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a81d416a6e504d8aa8e6a2eed4b942a0\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7cbbf127a97457d8e119db6cb012103\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7cbbf127a97457d8e119db6cb012103\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E It is with delight that I rise to speak to the title and commencement clauses of the Financial Reporting Bill. This bill, as I noted in my earlier contributions, is something that we on this side of the Chamber can agree with. Although we think it may have slipped through unnoticed by the Government that here is a bill that actually does reduce compliance on small entities that do not need it, certainly the Government\u2019s record suggests that it is interested in doing otherwise, and I raise the matter of the child support payments that come on to small businesses now, the compliance requirements around the paper boy tax, and so on and so forth. I note the red tape that this Government has built\u2014it has tried to do an iPad tax, and it has tried to do a car-park tax. There is a constant flow of additional requirements on small businesses. But this one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b0b5bdccaa3458a894c891192babf8a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: They came a gutser.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4c75f71de14e49b380db13f86a8c11\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: They came a gutser\u2014they certainly did come a gutser. The word \u201Cgutser\u201D is a technical tax term, which my colleague is using. There is an opportunity in this bill for the compliance to be reduced where it is not required. So that is why we heartily support this bill. It was well debated in the Commerce Committee, and we have covered the charities matters there. The \u201CFinancial Reporting Bill\u201D is probably a good title for this bill, I would suggest. That is what it is about. We might even want to add in there \u201C(Transparency and Appropriateness)\u201D as descriptors, because the transparency arrangements here are ones that we can agree with. If there is no wider public interest and if shareholders are comfortable with the arrangements, unnecessary reporting requirements should be abandoned, and that is one idea that we on this side of the Chamber are quite comfortable with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EHowever, we need to be really clear that where there are public funds at play, there should be transparency. That is why, of course, when it came to the Supplementary Order Paper 376 changes and the energy companies were being sold off\u2014being flogged off\u2014for less than the $5 billion to $7 billion that Bill English said that he might get when he sold New Zealand taxpayers\u2019 best revenue-generating assets, we protested at the loss of public scrutiny of those entities. So we have a principled stance. We are glad to see that that is reflected in this bill. It does not seem to be normally the Government\u2019s practice where it does these shady deals, with the casino deal being the most obvious one\u2014John Key meeting with the Skycity chief executive, saying one thing to him whilst there was supposed to be a transparent process running. We know that this Government has a bad track record of doing deals behind closed doors, and the business community is sick of it. Those in the wider business community whom I meet with are saying that they just want transparent arrangements, so that they know that when they are bidding for something, it is really being taken seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat means that in this case, where there is a sensible offering being put forward\u2014and I thank the officials for their hard work. They will have put many, many hours into this Financial Reporting Bill and put many more hours in over the years in background and supporting papers and consultation. I thank the officials for their work. It is a good bill, and that is why we on this side of the Chamber are very pleased to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe wish that the Government would apply these transparency principles to its wider practice and that it would not put those ideas, I guess, of transparency and responsibility to one side when the Auditor-General makes a criticism in, say, the Earthquake Commission report or of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme. We wish that the Government would adopt these principles for its own practice, not just for the wider business community. We know that there are examples. We think of the power sector, and the $4.3 billion worth of price gouging that was estimated to have occurred between 2001 and 2007 by the world\u2019s leading modeller of energy markets at the time, Professor Wolak, because of effectively cartel-like behaviour, where market power could be used to extract excess profits from the market at the expense of mums and dads at home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOf course, that risk is going to be increased with the asset sell-offs, where the interests are not aligned with the taxpayer. The silver lining back then was that much of that excess profit went back into the taxpayer purse. We now know that so much of that is going offshore. Treasury said that those State-owned enterprise sell-downs will take the Government books backwards by about $100 million a year\u2014$100 million a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo I urge people at home to vote \u201CNo\u201D in the referendum when they have their chance to say no to the asset sales that this Government has put in place. Say no to the lack of transparency that goes with the deals that it is doing around those energy assets, and around deals more generally, and say no to this Government at the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00223c0fb43febf64032b5705a8ac708cdf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c0fb43febf64032b5705a8ac708cdf3\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I disagree with my colleague Dr David Clark in one respect, and it is simply this. The title of this legislation is slightly incomplete, in that it could well be the \u201CWalk the Talk Bill\u201D or the \u201CPractise What You Preach Bill\u201D, because if we look at financial reporting in this piece of legislation, the Financial Reporting Bill\u2014which we support\u2014we see that this Government has the great habit of preaching to everybody about standards, transparency, and accountability, until it comes to itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOne of the best examples of that\u2014and I do partly blame Treasury for this; it stood by and allowed it to happen\u2014is the fact that the Government, in its budgetary documents, booked the proceeds from the sale of State-owned assets that it had not sold, and it estimated that they would be $5 billion to $7 billion. We know that Bill English ain\u2019t even going to get close, or he might get close to $5 billion at best. The Government booked the proceeds from the sale of assets before they had been sold, but did not book the loss of dividends from those sales once the assets went out the door. So the Government booked it coming in but did not book it coming out. So these guys are great\u2014even though we support the legislation\u2014at preaching to everybody else about standards and accountability, whether it be to a beneficiary or to a flash guy on the high street. It is very, very good at preaching about accountability and transparency and standards, and even accounting standards, until it comes to itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have been in business. A number of people in this Chamber have been in business. Can you tell me of anybody in their right mind who would book the proceeds from a sale that has not happened\u2014the Government did not know how much it was going to get; \u201Cbest guess\u201D was the quote from the Minister of Finance, Bill English\u2014but fail to book the loss of dividends that would flow from said sale? That is dishonest\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d24414eb154b61aea6a5199fac4cce\u0022\u003EPaul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you get interest from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8fb1e9962c34189a2b6ffd7d2c739df\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and \u201CGoldfinger\u201D at the back knows it. That is dishonest\u2014utterly unaccountable, utterly un-transparent, and totally dishonest. So I say that maybe this bill should be called the \u201CFinancial Reporting (Walk the Talk) Bill\u201D, the \u201CPractise What You Preach Bill\u201D, or \u201CDo Unto Others\u201D, to quote the biblical phrase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThose members ought to actually look at themselves as they pass this piece of legislation. It is right that we have appropriate and high-quality standards in our financial businesses\u2014and, generally, businesses do, actually; they do\u2014and in our charitable sector, and for those transacting business. But as the Government passes this legislation tonight or tomorrow morning, I wonder whether those businesses are looking at how a Government cooks its own books in respect of the mixed-ownership model\u2014$5 billion to $7 billion? No, it was $7 billion from the get-go. Then it went to being from $5 billion to $7 billion. Now we think that it will be about $4.8 billion or $4.9 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is $1 billion down on Meridian Energy, $100 million down on Mighty River Power, and those members get up and they celebrate because they got $100 million extra\u2014$365 million for Air New Zealand\u2014which equates to 36 hours of operating expenditure for the Government. They say: \u201CWe got $100 million. We\u2019re heroes.\u201D Yeah! So it has gone from a $1.1 billion stuff-up to a $1 billion stuff-up. \u201CGrab a seat, grab a share, we are all happy.\u201D, and they take the dough and run. But they did not account for it appropriately, and they did not live up to their own accounting standards, which they preach in this legislation. So I say to the Minister of Commerce that he might want to reflect on that, and his own colleagues might want to reflect on that, in the passage of this legislation. I am sure that there might be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286aa76d455a742528d177b34e111115c\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, who sabotaged the sale?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022443fc4dacefa4e05917557423f8c956d\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014one or two people, even in Hamilton, or the outer-terrestrial areas that that member comes from, and there might be a few businesses in his patch that actually look at this and say: \u201CWell, if we\u2019re expected to adhere to these standards, why doesn\u2019t the Government? Why doesn\u2019t the Government adhere to these standards, if we are expected to?\u201D. What business in that member\u2019s electorate would book the proceeds from a sale that had not happened but not book the dividends? I ask the member. Does he know of a business? Oh, the old \u201CBilliard Ball\u201D\u2014yes, the old can rattled. But there is silence. The silence is deafening. There is no such business. They would be in jail, I say to that member, as he crawls behind his desk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Craig Foss to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 392.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b18d018911f4915a41651d5ac4453b6\u0022\u003EFinancial Reporting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b18d018911f4915a41651d5ac4453b6\u0022\u003EFinancial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224fd120bae71e4e82b927c16904c48db3\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e27f8b252cf149dbbf96efba58ba6f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e27f8b252cf149dbbf96efba58ba6f2a\u0022\u003EHon CRAIG FOSS (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill be now read a third time. It is important to consider the two bills within the broader context of the Government\u2019s package of financial reporting reforms. Parliament passed two Government-sponsored bills in 2011 that have improved the financial reporting system. The main change in the Financial Reporting Amendment Act 2011 was to consolidate all accounting and auditing standards and set them in the External Reporting Board, or XRB, so that standards are set by a body that is, and is seen to be, independent of the interests of the accounting profession. The second major reform was the enactment of the Auditor Regulation Act 2011, which came into force on 1 July 2012. The Act ensures that only top members of the auditing profession can carry out financial sector and issuer audits. It also requires independent oversight of professional accounting bodies\u2014the auditor regulatory system\u2014by the Financial Markets Authority. These audit reforms were driven by concerns about finance company audits being carried out by practitioners who did not have the necessary skills and experience. The changes are fully consistent with international auditor regulation developments in recent years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EHowever, the financial reporting picture is not yet complete. The Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill implement four more important changes. First, they reduce the compliance burden on many non-issuer companies. Companies with annual revenue of between $2 million and $30 million will no longer be required to prepare financial statements in accordance with generally accepted accounting practice. Small overseas companies will no longer be required to file audited financial statements with the Registrar of Companies. It is expected that these changes will come into force in 2014. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESecond, the legislation will strengthen public confidence in charities by increasing charities\u2019 accountability to the donating and taxpaying public. Registered charities are required to attach financial statements to their annual reports. The current situation might be described as \u201Cdo it yourself\u201D reporting, because there are no accounting standards to govern what is prepared. This problem is being rectified by these bills. It is expected that the accounting standards will come into force in 2015. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThird, the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill includes a century of tidy-ups by making amendments to more than 80 other Acts. Those changes will make financial reporting requirements fully consistent with the goals of financial reporting and replace archaic language. Fourth, the two bills make financial reporting legislation more user-friendly by placing provisions where most users would expect to find them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Financial Reporting Bill also repeals the Financial Reporting Act 1993. This means that the provisions in the 1993 Act that constitute the External Reporting Board and describe its powers and obligations are being included in the Financial Reporting Bill largely unchanged. Core accounting definitions are consolidated within the Financial Reporting Bill. This includes retaining existing provisions in the 1993 Act and moving other definitions from the Companies Act 1993. The Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill places all substantive reporting obligations in sector, industry, and entity-specific Acts. Those Acts cross-refer as necessary to the standard definitions in the Financial Reporting Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill changes the Financial Markets Conduct Act 2013 by consolidating the reporting requirements for all Financial Markets Conduct Act reporting entities. Most of those obligations currently appear in the Financial Reporting Act 1993, but they also appear elsewhere, such as in the Building Societies Act 1965. Splitting the bill into two bills will mean that there will be a short Financial Reporting Act of about 35 pages comprising the provisions that will be referred to for decades to come. The Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Act will be about 150 pages. It is likely to be of little interest beyond 2016. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the External Reporting Board for its significant contributions to these reforms. These bills deal with the \u201Cwho\u201D question\u2014who is a reporting entity? It is for the External Reporting Board to answer the \u201Cwhat\u201D question\u2014what accounting standards each class of reporting entity must comply with. These questions are likely to be linked, and the External Reporting Board has been working very effectively with the Government. The External Reporting Board submitted a reporting strategy to me in March 2012, and I approved it in April 2012. The strategy is fully consistent with the policy of the two bills. The External Reporting Board has been implementing its strategy to the extent that it can under the Financial Reporting Act 1993. It has also issued exposure drafts for not-for-profit entity accounting standards that will apply to registered charities. Those standards are being finalised and will be issued once the two bills have been passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ETo conclude, the Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill will make major contributions to strengthening the financial reporting system in New Zealand. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4dc862ba22c4ea2b59fed920148c553\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4dc862ba22c4ea2b59fed920148c553\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank the Minister of Commerce. The Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill have bipartisan support. In fact, I do not believe\u2014maybe there is\u2014there is a party in Parliament that is opposed to them, for logical and common-sense reasons. Can I also thank the Minister for the way he has conducted himself in respect of transacting this report. I think that members of the Committee, across the House, have done a pretty good job to come to grips with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELabour will support these bills. They are admirable bills and they are necessary in respect of all the things we have debated tonight, over and over as we head towards midnight, in terms of appropriate accounting and financial reporting standards, transparency, accountability, et al. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI want to particularly say that we on this side of the House believe that reducing unnecessary compliance costs for all entities, but especially for small entities, is appropriate. I well recall being the Minister for Small Business for a time in the last Labour Government. It is a bit like being the Minister for Building and Construction in that there is a decent alumni of small business Ministers, past and present, in this place. The dilemma for a Minister for Small Business is that when you attempt to reduce compliance costs, your colleagues in Cabinet, with their own portfolios, and with all good intentions, are trying to solve other problems and in doing so, although they have the best of intentions and are acting in good faith, they can often pile those compliance costs back on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut I will say that the Minister of Commerce has acted in a far more effective way than the then Minister for Small Business, the honourable\u2014I use that word advisedly\u2014John Archibald Banks, whose greatest contribution to the body politic was to stand in this House last year, I think, or within the last 12 months, and promote a piece of legislation that had at its heart getting rid of 31 spent Acts. For the uninitiated\u2014because I was\u2014I had to ask the Clerk, and a spent Act is effectively an Act that in all essence has been repealed. In essence it has no effect on anybody\u2014it does not exist. So he was repealing 31 Acts that had no effect on anybody. That was the Hon John Archibald Banks\u2019 great\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8a488451b4499a90159f79227e2121\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: High point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ec9c868cd1498e98eb1b9ca9d59309\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014high point as Minister for Small Business, before he got into a high degree of difficulty involving his second court appearance after being convicted in a previous life of a criminal offence elsewhere. So he is rather preoccupied with his own compliance costs, and I suspect there might be a few more compliance costs as he heads through the court proceeding, trying to defend the indefensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn terms of transparency and standards, I hope that Minister Foss might perhaps give the former Minister John Banks some advice on how to maintain high standards of accountability and transparency, possibly in his own personal affairs, for which he is now accountable before the courts. That may lead to some lifelong learning for Mr Banks as he contemplates doing other things as he, perhaps, looks through striped sunshine in the next few years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI return to the legislation, and I am particularly grateful for the clarification around charities. I do take the point, which, I think, a number of colleagues have made, that the more appropriate level of financial reporting and the more openness, transparency, and accountability a charity can have\u2014though it is somewhat burdensome to make any changes\u2014will promote, I do hope, as the Minister does, further giving from people. They will have a greater confidence that the charitable dollar that they are donating will be used\u2014as it generally is in 99 percent of cases\u2014in an appropriate way and will get to those who are in need, either medically or because of their personal circumstances. They will have a greater confidence that the money gets to where it needs to go to assist people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI come back to a couple of points I made previously. I say to the Government again, even though we are supporting this legislation, that it ought to look to its own conduct in terms of when it is promoting standards, accountability, and transparency. In a previous speech I touched on the rather shoddy, slipshod, and totally morally wrong way in which it dealt with the provision for sale, and the loss of dividends from the mixed-ownership model. I just say again to the Government that it will be difficult for some as they read this legislation, and are required to spend quite a bit of money in many respects to make the relevant changes, and then look at the Government\u2019s own record of accounting standards, aided and abetted in this case, sadly, I have to say, by Treasury, which allowed this behaviour to be got away with. They may look at this Government and say: \u201CWell, if it\u2019s good enough for us, why isn\u2019t it good enough for you?\u201D\u2014as in the Government, not you, Mr Deputy Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think that the behaviour has been reprehensible. It was done simply for political purposes, and, sadly, the Government ought to realise that in some ways you do not actually need a piece of legislation in order to be accountable, because New Zealand is a small village. Everybody knows what everybody is doing, and the people saw through that act of incompetence and negligence\u2014an act that was completely wrong. They have now seen through that as we have gone through several botched mixed-ownership model sales. People are not silly. This Government ought to work that out. They know when they are being snowed. They know when there is a snow job, and they know when one is trying to be put across them. So I say that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThat also goes, in terms of standards and transparency, for some of the other deals\u2014bizarre negotiations like the ones with Rio Tinto, done behind closed doors, with no explanations and no claims about job security. That is why the Government paid 30 million pieces of silver to Rio Tinto\u2014on a claim that it was securing jobs for Southland. Without bringing the Deputy Speaker into the debate\u2014I know that he is a very parochial Southlander, who stands up for his patch very well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db83454f0f6447619e9caa4bc5ec6838\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a hunter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d03520cde04775b048ff4af6921b6a\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: He is a hunter indeed. The commitment was made in this House that $30 million effectively bought job security for those Rio Tinto workers. We now know two things. Before the ink was dry on the cheque, on the Tuesday, in the Southland Times Rio Tinto was already announcing the fact that it was laying off maintenance workers. We now know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299e615d783aa4686891a7e081b7b8a08\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef044e7e9db44c18451d3f5773435ad\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Anne Tolley asks what this has got to do with the legislation. Well, that says it all. A day late and a dollar short from that one over there. Ms Tolley, it is about accountability, transparency, and walking the talk. When you promote a bill that requires a high level of financial reporting accountability and transparency for others, one would think that you would do that from a position of moral authority, where you could stand up and say the Government is going to adhere to the same standard. That, Ms Tolley, is what it is all about, and, as I was saying in terms of the Rio Tinto deal, $30 million\u2014[Interruption] Well, she still does not get it, but that is all right. Get Nick Smith to explain it to you out the back over a coffee afterwards. If Ms Tolley does not know what it is about, that says a lot to the community, does it not? That says a lot. Ignorance for that member is bliss, absolute bliss\u2014hear no evil, see no evil. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe facts are that $30 million\u2014$30 million\u2014was promised to secure jobs, and then we find out that the Minister of Finance did not even ask for a jobs guarantee. He may not have got one\u2014fair enough\u2014but he did not even have the brains, the gumption, or the professionalism to ask for that. There was no transparency with the Chorus deal either\u2014no transparency, no accountability. In terms of the Solid Energy deal, the Government was asleep at the wheel. There was no accountability and no transparency, and there were some pretty dodgy financial reporting standards amongst that. [Interruption] Oh, they have woken up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say to those members opposite that if they are going to apply this sort of legislation, which is appropriate to everybody else, they might want to look at their own financial conduct, their own conduct in respect of State-owned enterprises, Chorus, the SkyCity deal, and the Ruataniwha Dam project, which that Minister is involved with in various surreptitious ways, and say: \u201CMaybe we should have the same level of openness, accountability, transparency, and standards.\u201D That, Ms Tolley, is what it is all about: walking the talk, practising what you preach, and not being\u2014well, I cannot use the \u201Ch\u201D word, of course. It is not about the Government saying one thing\u2014demanding and demanding that people outside this Chamber adhere to high standards of accountability, professionalism, reporting, and transparency\u2014and doing another. It is not about the Government saying: \u201COh, that\u2019s OK for them, the plebs outside here, but it\u2019s not OK for us. We\u2019ll set our own standards. We\u2019ll lower the height bar as we see fit, and anything will go.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say in conclusion that we support the tenure of this legislation. We support it. [Interruption] There is a bit of verbal biffo going on across the House between a couple of members, but that is OK. We are getting close to the bewitching hour, and I am sure there will be a few broomsticks flying out of here from time to time. I say that we support this legislation. It has bipartisan support, but I just wish the Government would actually look at it and say: \u201COK, if it\u2019s good enough for them, it\u2019s good enough for us.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00228f77b579b7134c5ab1a7bbca50161ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f77b579b7134c5ab1a7bbca50161ab5\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to stand and commend this legislation arising from the Financial Reporting Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022be5b13296c9c41b78622b7dac3b6145d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be5b13296c9c41b78622b7dac3b6145d\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E Let us see whether I can outlast the chair of the Commerce Committee, Jonathan Young, who shepherded the Financial Reporting Bill through Parliament with great care and dignity. I guess no one can accuse him of hypocrisy, because this legislation, which has great principles in it, is being passed through. He is supporting it, but he is not going any further than that. He is not explaining why. He is not getting into the detail. He is not contrasting it with the Government\u2019s current behaviour in the way that my colleague Clayton Cosgrove has so eloquently done, and as he so eloquently does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to speak a little bit about the public sector management principles that sit behind this legislation. I can actually hear people turning their TV sets off as I say that. I will try to make it vaguely entertaining, or as entertaining as it can be. This legislation is not particularly exciting, it has to be said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183db097e2b6474d8b60d35a5afef0e7\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: No. Nor is this member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711896e1bd8240518dada58584430d18\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is not the bright lights kind of thing. Ms Tolley says that, no, it is not. But it is actually exciting for those entities affected by it. It is exciting that accountability, where it is unnecessary, is being done away with. And where it is required, where there is a public interest angle, where an entity is too big to fail without having ripples through the community, proper and clear accountability is being required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Clayton Cosgrove has contrasted the Government\u2019s behaviour inside this place and in its deals with the expectations of those who are outside in the business world, I want to bring another example to the table. That is the example of the AgResearch restructure that is going on currently. AgResearch has brought a proposal, which it has put to the shareholding Ministers, Ministers Steven Joyce and Bill English, which they have signed off, called the Future Footprint Business Case for AgResearch. It is based around an idea that you cluster things together, you get hubs of activity, and it is more productive. There is nothing wrong with that as a general principle. Broadly, it has been agreed with. It has been agreed with in the reviews inside the organisation that those principles are good ones. But what has not happened has been a transparent process around assessing whether that is what is really achieved in the restructuring proposal. That is not what is achieved, argue three separate reports that have come out subsequently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe executive leadership team\u2014very close connections there, into the Minister\u2019s office\u2014has defended the current plan, which was signed off by the Minister. The Minister may be embarrassed, because the original plan seems to lack some good principles behind it, in terms of the way the different options have been compared. It was very detailed, so we know Minister Joyce had the plan for about 6 months. He received it on 31 October last year, and had it on his desk until at least the end of March. He must have worked through all those details of how many jobs were going to be lost in Dunedin and thereabouts, and how many jobs were going to go out of Hamilton. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe member David Bennett opposite must be furious at the way the AgResearch centre there in Hamilton has been gutted by Steven Joyce, without going through a proper process. Maybe he is just rolling over and letting his belly be scratched\u2014I do not know. But if I were him, I would be furious, because Minister Joyce is steamrolling this ideological vision through, without having a transparent process and without having the proper business case requirements that Treasury would demand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAgain, there we see a level of hypocrisy. When the Government commits itself to a deal, it puts transparency to one side. In this legislation we are seeing that everybody is required to comply with transparent processes, if it is in the public interest, except the behaviour of this Government. That is the record that we are seeing. There is one rule for everyone else, and one rule for the National Government. On the Invermay Agricultural Centre debacle we have had many, many independent investigations\u2014three, now. Well, one was an internal review, which said: \u201CYou\u2019ve got these objectives, but you\u2019re not meeting them, Invermay AgResearch, by breaking up the Invermay cluster in Dunedin.\u201D There is a productive hub there. There is private enterprise. There are productivity gains\u2014a huge history of productivity gains that are extraordinary in New Zealand terms and that contribute to our agricultural sector, which is so important as it is. In fact, you have got the whole \u201C-omics\u201D\u2014genomics, and so forth\u2014cluster there, which is working effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt could be working more effectively, in fact, if you transferred more resource into it. That would be good for New Zealand. That would actually achieve your goals. But it seems at this stage that the Government is wedded to it, although Minister Joyce does say he is going to look at more detail. He has asked for more detail, and I commend him for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt is a little bit disappointing, perhaps, that the National Party list member who lives in Dunedin has not been out there, putting the pressure publicly on Minister Joyce to look at those things carefully. There has been no statement. There has been silence from the list member who is based in Dunedin, and that is disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a93b0a1abc418abbd24510216387c9\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish! Don\u2019t tell fibs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d609e903a1574aba8d1176df2c483935\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I expect him to take a call. He is saying \u201CRubbish!\u201D, so I look forward to his rebutting that. But I certainly have not heard the echoes of his complaints through the media, so I will listen with interest and I will look to the newspapers for criticism, as those jobs, which benefit New Zealand\u2019s economy, are ripped out of Dunedin. The productivity of our country is dependent on good science and on good research. This Government seems determined to run a non-transparent process and, in that case, to rip out that functional hub in the south. It is doing harm to New Zealand. Let us put aside the regional interests. It is doing harm to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut when it is ideologically wedded, be it a casino deal, be it a Rio Tinto golden handshake, be it a Chorus deal sorted out behind the scenes, where it is big business and corporate welfare, this Government is willing to do the deal with its ideological blinkers on. It does not matter that the electricity sector, for example, had that history of price gouging that I referred to in the Committee stage, where $4.3 billion of price gouging was identified between 2001 and 2007. Simon Bridges says that the current market model works, and that it just needs a little more time to bed in. I think that is an exact quote: it just needs a little more time to \u201Cbed in.\u201D Fifteen years down the track, this Government is not prepared to stand up and say when something is not working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223accb369243c4f5aa2e8d28522005af0\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Too early to tell, he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9de0ebbf908445db00b2de1ea40cd45\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is too early to tell\u2014too early to tell. We will wait and see. But not the Labour Government. The Labour Government of the future will step in. It will make sure that we regulate the power market so that it is run in the interests of New Zealand citizens, so that people do not pay too much for their power, and so we do not have blackouts across the country. Those are the kinds of things that this Government will tolerate, in the interests of making sure that the money from the asset sell-offs goes offshore and that its mates are looked after. The Government is ideologically wedded to it. It will not even look at the NZ Power model, which is so well-championed by the Labour Party, and also a variant put forward by the Green Party, down the back of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, this Government is so wedded to this ideological position. It is one thing for the Government and its deals\u2014the way it does its business. It is expecting, in this legislation, the citizens of New Zealand to do something different. It is a pity the Government cannot take its own advice. It is a pity the Government cannot apply those simple principles that I referred to at the outset, the public sector management principles: clear objectives, transparent reporting, sanctions and rewards, and clear lines of accountability. Those kinds of simple principles that we find embodied in this legislation, looking out for the public interests, seem too far beyond this Government for it to adopt itself. That is a great shame, because this Government, if it applied these principles to its own practice, would be acting in the interests of New Zealanders more broadly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut, no, it seems to be out of touch. It seems to be increasingly arrogant. We saw the dismissal of the Earthquake Commission\u2014the Auditor-General\u2019s report. We saw the dismissals of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme\u2014the Auditor-General\u2019s report. We saw the dismissal of the Law Society\u2019s advice on the Government Communications Security Bureau legislation, saying to slow down, have a clear process, have some clear oversight of the agency, and have a proper review, for goodness\u2019 sake! But, no, this Government does not want scrutiny. It does not want a review. The Government says that this is not for it. The Government says \u201CThis is for the people of New Zealand, but it is not for us. We are a Government that is not interested in the wider public interest, where it applies to us. We will do our own thing.\u201D This is a Government that is out of touch with New Zealanders, out of time, and New Zealanders will be well advised to get rid of it at the next election. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2d2a0deaf1246d88a5638f23c2daa76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2d2a0deaf1246d88a5638f23c2daa76\u0022\u003EJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call in the last 15 minutes, at a quarter to midnight, during urgency. The Green Party will be supporting the Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill, even though they are not perfect, because we do not think that perfect should be the enemy of the good, and this legislation, on balance, does quite a lot of good things. It has been widely canvassed, and the details have been worked on for a very long time by the officials, who, I think, have done quite a good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe main purpose of this legislation, as we have heard, is to make all general-purpose financial reporting consistent with the primary objective of the financial reporting system, which is to provide information to external users who require that information and cannot demand it. In other words, the legislation should make the requirements to disclose and report more fit for purpose to the organisations that are required to report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party supports a much smarter approach to regulation. This legislation does that by easing some of the burden of financial reporting for non-large, non-issuing entities. In other words, it simplifies reporting requirements for small and medium companies, charities, churches, and the like. It also tightens up some of the requirements for large entities, to bring it in line with the Financial Markets Conduct Act, which was passed recently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFinancial reporting is important, for a few reasons. Firstly, it is especially important for public accountability. There is a public interest in organisations that are funded by taxpayers, like Crown entities, Government departments, and State-owned enterprises. But it is also important for banks, insurers, mutual funds, and any organisation that is a deposit taker or issuer of debt, and charities and other organisations that receive public donations. Secondly, it is important for large organisations that have significant economic significance. This would apply to organisations that are \u201Ctoo big to fail\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is no such thing as a pure or perfect free market. If we examine the objective evidence and the historical record, there is simply no evidence that there is perfect information and transparency and the ability of markets to self-correct, for that reason. The whole theory of free markets and the invisible hand was based on the idea that there were much closer relationships between the people who were purchasing things and the people who were manufacturing or providing those services. Adam Smith wrote that at a time when the relationship between a producer and a consumer was much closer than it is today. It is very difficult today for consumers and investors to understand exactly all of the factors that are involved in the nature of the business that they are purchasing from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe complexity of our current global economy reduces accountability. It makes it harder for there to be accountability, and that is why it is incredibly important for there to be robust public oversight and regulation. Financial institutions are central to the functioning of our economy. As the financial crisis showed, it is important to have that rigorous public oversight, because when there is not that oversight, there is a tendency for organisations to get creative, to do things that are quite unwise in the medium and long term, and in the case of some of the investment banks and organisations, particularly in the United States, to actually do things that are completely illegal in order to make more money. Eventually, when the reckoning comes, it is not those organisations that suffer the consequences of their actions. Huge amounts of wealth have been wiped off balance sheets all across the world, and that has very real consequences for ordinary people\u2014people who lost their jobs, lost their houses, and lost their livelihoods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is so important to get the balance right. I am no fan of regulations that are not effective. I am a qualified planner who would be the first to criticise onerous regulations and city plans that have led to quite undesirable outcomes. I think that we can do things much smarter, but it would be wrong to say that we need to get rid of all regulation, that all regulation is bad, and that all compliance costs are bad, because what might cost us a little bit in the short term could save us quite a lot in the medium and long term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party supports the changes in these bills, the Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill, because it seems that the general direction set by these bills is good. We have some concerns about whether or not enough organisations will be caught by the definition of \u201Clarge\u201D organisation, and so it will remain to be seen. Certainly, with this whole new framework for financial reporting, it will be important for the Government and the Opposition\u2014Parliament\u2014to pay attention to what is happening, see whether it is working and whether, indeed, external users are getting all of the information that they need. It seems to me that it is going to rely a lot on decisions made by the External Reporting Board about accounting and reporting standards and that process. So Parliament will have to monitor whether or not that is working and whether or not truly all of the information that needs to be available for the public interest is available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFinally, I think there is one big missed opportunity in this whole restructure of the financial reporting framework that has been undertaken over the past few years, and that is the lack of exploration of guidelines for environmental and social reporting in addition to financial reporting. That is known as triple bottom line accounting. There is increasing awareness around the world, and particularly, I think, amongst younger generations, that maximising short-term profit at the expense of people and the planet is not sustainable. Climate talks are happening right now in Warsaw and the situation is very, very straightforward. The scientists have told us we have to transition to a low-carbon economy, or we are going to impoverish the future of our children, their children, and their children. So it is important that we start paying attention to more than just the dollars and cents in the short term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is a commonly understood principle, I think, in private business that one cares about what one measures. At the moment, most organisations\u2014including the Government; especially, perhaps, this Government\u2014have a single-minded, narrow focus on dollars, although there are a number of other things that are important for human well-being. In order for New Zealanders to have good lives and in order for people all over the world to have good lives, we have to pay attention to more than just the dollars; we have to pay attention to the cleanliness of the environment, the air that we breathe, the water, and the stability of the climate. We want to make sure that other people are looked after, because that has an impact on our well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI can go out, work really hard, start up a business, and make lots of money, but if I live in a society where other people do not have the opportunity to do that, for a variety of reasons, then that is going to impact on me because, ultimately, I will have to suffer the consequences of a society that has more crime or more injustice and is not well looked after. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI would like to see, at some point during my time in this House, a move towards incorporating greater accountability in areas that are not just financial. I would like to see guidelines for environmental and social bottom lines, so that we have an understanding of exactly what it is we are working towards and trading off. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff34eefcad8b4d90aca5b9a1564ed0e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff34eefcad8b4d90aca5b9a1564ed0e0\u0022\u003EPeseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E These bills, the Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill, will improve the financial reporting system in this country. They will build a brighter, bolder, better future for all New Zealanders. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u00223d189e265439422d8d4b0b62c6e5ad56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d189e265439422d8d4b0b62c6e5ad56\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Financial Reporting Bill and the Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill. They reduce compliance costs, strengthen accountability, and improve transparency. We support the bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a371796915a3419b86bf7cd1186a020c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a371796915a3419b86bf7cd1186a020c\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E Labour does support these bills, the Financial Reporting Bill and Financial Reporting (Amendments to Other Enactments) Bill, and most of the debate tonight has come from this side of the House. Well, pretty much all of the debate has come from this side of this House, as usual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOne of the things that is critical when we are looking at these bills is that the primary aim of Government should be getting on with doing its job of growing and creating jobs, which, unfortunately, is one of the things that this Government is not doing. One of the ways of doing that is reducing unnecessary compliance costs for businesses, and it is creating good standards\u2014standards of transparency and accountability\u2014and joining the dots between those things. Unfortunately, as we have heard from numerous examples given tonight, whether it is the mixed-ownership model, whether it is Invermay Agricultural Centre, or whether it is Chorus\u2014and there are numerous other examples\u2014the dots are not being joined in terms of what is in these bills, what the standards are that are being expected of other companies, and what is actually being delivered by this Government. It does not add up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EHowever, we support these bills. There was a lot of good work done in the select committee, and we commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022615ecffdce13497e9113a67a9c082c4e\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002234ce4001146047188a136d7d8d8d9242\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5d04e1e80844fe0a1221171af094d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5d04e1e80844fe0a1221171af094d51\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It seems like we have made good progress this evening. It is a late hour for starting a new bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5957154e96d415182b400c2f5eec4aa\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to put the House into Committee and then take that point of order, or someone else may, who is the Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c86533d9359a4ea188a4548056be04f3\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220da1b06290ad4533b4f51c05c404cf58\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u002291fb0116da03405eb63def3ac9896950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291fb0116da03405eb63def3ac9896950\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We have made good progress this evening. It is very close to the witching hour, and I seek leave and suggest that we end at this point, whatever the motion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022280c9888fd794971b58782b84763e8ca\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: You are seeking leave for the Committee to be suspended at this time? Leave is sought for the Committee to be suspended at 2 minutes to 12. Is there objection to that course of action? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119ed710559bdbc40c78523fe28411622a3001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 11.59 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ecc985deada4cfc86bac584ce8446a2\u0022\u003ETuesday, 19 November 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220031073a629c4fc880c6194ac03fde86\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 21 November 2013)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002223ef899854574988b08207e40f261ee5\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb42785708f64012a8f92b3f347a8021\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5c09f858b5646b0b840ea7dafb315ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5c09f858b5646b0b840ea7dafb315ea\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee to take all parts, schedules, and clauses of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bff7686801da4abeb678c6d7f5a0c529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bff7686801da4abeb678c6d7f5a0c529\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe81102e07324c258ce61a0db3042d9a\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00227d2647d2d9084a48b38813c8a6dd8a90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d2647d2d9084a48b38813c8a6dd8a90\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to give a contribution in the Committee stage of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill. Labour will be giving its support to this bill. We do have some reservations, though, in giving that support, but we will traverse that over the course of this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill\u2014obviously, covered bonds are debt securities issued by a financial entity. But at the moment the legislative framework for covered bonds in New Zealand is somewhat lacking. So opposing this legislation\u2014and this is something that Labour has considered in giving its support\u2014would not prevent the issuance of covered bonds, but it would leave New Zealand without regulation, and we would be concerned by that situation. That is one of the reasons why we are giving the bill support, with reservations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ETo cover the purpose of this bill\u2014briefly, given that we are at the beginning of the Committee stage\u2014the key feature of a covered bond is that bondholders both have an unsecured claim over the issuing entity and hold a secured interest over a specific pool of assets, called the cover pool. New Zealand banks have been active in issuing covered bonds over the last 2 years, and this has been carried out under contractual arrangements. However, most jurisdictions\u2014and we often look to jurisdictions like Australia when assessing whether or not we are keeping up with the play in terms of those jurisdictions that are similar to us\u2014with banks active in the covered bonds market, which includes Australia, now have a legislative framework for issuance in place. The lack of a similar legislative framework in New Zealand does put New Zealand issuers at a disadvantage, and that is one of the reasons why, obviously, this bill has been brought in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe bill establishes a legislative framework for covered bonds, the purpose of which is to improve financial stability by ensuring that New Zealand banks have effective access to the covered bond market as a source of long-term, relatively stable finance, as an alternative source of bank funding. But the main problem that has been identified\u2014which we are obviously trying to remedy with this bill\u2014is a lack of certainty over the effectiveness of legal arrangements to segregate the cover pool assets from the assets of an issuing bank. So that is something that this bill is trying to address. The second problem that this bill seeks to address is ensuring that there is an adequate level of independent monitoring of information provided by issuers on cover pool assets. So the three things that we are likely to debate in this Committee stage are: first, the requirement that covered bonds issued by New Zealand banks be registered, subject to meeting registration requirements; second, the independent monitoring of cover pools by an asset monitor; and, third, provisions to amend the legislation, including the Companies Act 1993, to clarify the treatment of registered cover bonds in the event of issuer insolvency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think that anyone would agree that in this current environment and with the state of our financial markets in the past few years, regulation is better than the absence of regulation. Hence, Labour is lending its support to the bill, because to not do that would mean a continuation of the status quo, where we have an ad hoc arrangement, which is contractually based, as I understand it. That leaves us at a disadvantage when we are looking at comparable jurisdictions like Australia, but that does not mean that simply having a regulation in its current form is going to necessarily tick off all the boxes that we would be looking for\u2014all of the acid tests that we would have\u2014for legislation such as this. My colleagues who have been involved in this area a little more closely than I have will, I am sure, traverse some of that in their contributions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne of the things, though, that we are also likely to cover is that the effect of covered bonds currently is to create a class of lenders to banks who have a higher level of security over banks compared with other lenders. That is unfairness, in that it creates a two-tiered system. Most covered bond holders are foreign institutions. So the question is, where does this leave mum and dad investors, whom we have so frequently heard about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002252200c6d09874d47b2b2a16953708344\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252200c6d09874d47b2b2a16953708344\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E This issue is one that we debated at length in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, although that was some time ago. I look across and recall Mr Bennett from the other side of the Chamber there participating in this lively discussion in the select committee. Other members here will think back and remember the interesting discussions we had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIf a bank collapses, covered bonds have a higher priority to banks over other lenders, including ordinary mums and dads. There is no doubt that it is desirable to have some legislation in this area. It seems a good idea to have an instrument that is protected from runs on banks and from other unforeseen financial situations in order to attract a certain kind of lending at a premium. Having a covered bond is a mechanism that is used around the world to provide some financial security to banks and to other lenders. We know that $6 billion worth of bonds has been issued over 2 years without any regulatory oversight, so it is clearly an area that needs to be addressed. It is good and it is timely to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOur question on this side of the Chamber is whether the percentage of a bank\u2019s assets that can be placed in this position is too high. It is possible that the 10 percent limit is too high. We looked at other examples overseas and we found that in Australia it was lower\u2014I think around the 8 percent mark, from memory\u2014and in Canada it was as low as 4 percent. So we ask whether the big end of town needed this much protection and whether, in fact, that level could be set lower. Those who were pushing the case seemed determined that it should be higher. On this side of the Chamber, that left us a little bit uncomfortable. So we are really arguing about where the line should be drawn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the Committee are very concerned about small-business owners, about mum and dad New Zealanders who take out a mortgage to start a business, and about those who are putting their shoulder to the wheel, taking the risks, and borrowing money. Having them further down the list of people who are able to access capital in the case of a collapse seems an injustice. So we do not believe that too much of this covered bond lending should be happening, and we would have less of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe think of the recent example\u2014not so recent now, but not so long ago\u2014of Mainzeal Property and Construction, and the way in which individual contractors and small-business folk missed out on getting their money and, worse than that, getting their tools back. So Labour is, of course, proposing solutions in that area to make sure that subcontractors\u2014the lifeblood of our economy, those who go to work every day\u2014and their interests are looked after. That, unfortunately, does not seem to be a priority for the National Government. It is more interested in making sure that the interests of big business are protected. I could digress into Chorus, the Skycity Casino deal, and Rio Tinto as other examples of that, but I think it would be better to focus on the particular issue of covered bonds and quite where that line should be drawn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ELabour will be supporting this bill, I have to say, despite our reservations. That is primarily because we think there needs to be a regulatory framework. We are actually arguing, as I said at the beginning, about exactly and precisely where that line should be drawn. The lack of a legislative framework has, we think, put New Zealand issuers at a disadvantage. At least with the regulatory certainty in Australia for those who are seeking to lend, there is some certainty to the people they are lending to. As we know in the world of business, often regulatory certainty is more important than other factors. Businesses like to know the risks that they are dealing with, take their chances, and develop a strategy around those risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI think back, for a parallel example, to the emissions trading scheme. I had the privilege of working on that legislation as an official many years ago. When I contacted, for example, the oil companies, I had oil companies saying to me: \u201CWe will scream if you put this legislation through. But we will scream quietly if we know what it is and we know the detail of it. However, if the rules are not clear, if the legislation is too harsh, if it comes too soon, and if it comes too fast we will scream loudly.\u201D They were representing their interests, their clients, and their profits. But they are also, like any business, looking to the future and saying: \u201CWe can plan if we know what the rules are. We can plan our arrangements. We can work out how we are going to structure our debt. We can plan as to which areas of industry we go into and whether we move toward renewables.\u201D I know that BP had a brand that was about a sustainable future. That has been called into question by more recent events, but BP made choices about where it was going to put its business interests, and that is around regulatory certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ECertainly in New Zealand one of the discussions that we have in this Parliament often is around regulatory certainty and the ability to attract capital to our businesses here\u2014not just overseas capital but New Zealand capital. There are some significant New Zealand companies that want regulatory certainty here, or otherwise they will invest their money offshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat is why we will be supporting this bill. We do think that that limit is a little too high and panders to the big end of town and that it makes sure that the big institutional lenders, creditors, and so on are protected, rather than looking out for the interests of those who are starting up and those who are literally risking the shirt off their backs. We see the pattern there in the Government\u2019s other behaviour, but we appreciate the need for a regulatory framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, other areas where we would like to see the Government provide greater regulatory certainty in the interests of the financial well-being of New Zealand long term. Here we are talking about savings and putting savings at risk. In the KiwiSaver arena we would like to see universal KiwiSaver so that there is actually a greater depth of savings in New Zealand, a deeper pool from which businesses can lend. We think of the Australian scheme, which came in shortly before the National Government in the early 1980s canned the scheme we had here. They now have about $1.6 trillion in their retirement savings scheme, and that is available capital. So that is good for small business. In New Zealand if you want to start a small business you are handing round the hat to your family members. In Australia there is a lot of capital, and a lot of it is sticky capital that stays close by, that is available for good ideas, that pursues good ideas, and that ensures growth in that economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThese are issues of savings. They are issues of how we protect lenders\u2014whether we can attract good credit from overseas\u2014and they are important issues for our country. There are, of course, plenty of others. There is the capital gains tax that we would like to introduce, which we think would send money towards the productive sector again in New Zealand. All of these things actually reduce the risks that we are trying to cut off here. When you have an economy that is prospering and when it has got a balance of trade that is under control\u2014a rebalanced economy\u2014there are fewer risks in it. It is more attractive for investors over time because they see its health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt was very disappointing to see our economy downgraded under this Government\u2019s last term because essentially it did not have the vision. It was not projecting the right kinds of figures in the period to come that would give the international ratings agencies confidence. I guess that is because this Government has run deficits consistently, where the last Labour Government ran 9 years of surpluses. Michael Cullen was certainly a strong hand on the tiller. Our economy was running strongly, but under this Government it has lacked a certain amount of vision. It has lacked the ability to convince those ratings agencies that we have a long-term plan for our economy, that it is secure, and that it is a good place to invest in the same way that the previous Labour Government has. This Government has a poor record on the economy\u2014the worst economic record of any Government in the last 50 years in New Zealand\u2014whereas the Labour Government, certainly, by introducing Kiwibank, KiwiSaver, and other measures, pushed us towards more secure savings that will benefit small businesses in our economy, which is the type of issue that we are dealing with here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe legislation itself has three main elements: a requirement that the covered bonds issued in New Zealand by banks be registered subject to meeting registration requirements, which is a technical expectation that enables monitoring and makes sure that this does not get out of hand; independent monitoring of covered pools by an asset monitor; and provision to amend the Companies Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002280732da19e9a407d9364d25c27ec5758\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280732da19e9a407d9364d25c27ec5758\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Like my colleague, we note that we will support the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill because, in essence, opposing it, of course, will not prevent the issuance of covered bonds. It will merely leave New Zealand without regulation and at a competitive disadvantage, particularly with Australia, as covered bonds already exist there. I have to say, like my colleague Dr Clark and others on this side who have spoken in respect of this bill, that we do have a reservation in respect of the unfairness that is created with a two-tier system whereby in the event of a collapse, of course, the banks get far better coverage, and get to essentially secure their shirt and others do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EYou could make an argument\u2014and there is a bit of precedent for this\u2014in respect of the big end of town being looked after. There are precedents with this Government in terms of looking after the big end of town, whether it be those in the film industry, or whether it be a negotiated disaster with Skycity, where Skycity effectively took the negotiators and the Government to the cleaners, but the big end of town tends to get looked after by this Government. The small folk, those at the other end of the scale, tend to have a different set of rules, a different set of parameters, and a different set of safeguards. As my colleague said, we are mindful, for instance, in respect of Mainzeal Property and Construction Ltd, where the big end of town was first in and those subcontractors and others even struggled to get their tools out of the construction site, let alone the age-old problem of getting paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo although we support the bill, we have reservations in respect of it. I wonder, like Dr Clark, whether the limit of 10 percent of a bank\u2019s asset base is, indeed, too high and whether that should not be brought into line with the 8 percent that exists in Australia. Why we would have a different system\u2014why we would have a different tier? I do not think has been adequately explained by the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Internal Affairs. We would look forward to some explanation in respect of that. Why is there a difference? Why did the Government put in a different level and a 10 percent limit as opposed to other jurisdictions like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225707f276b85447df8bcb60e7a0586415\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Very keen to hear what the Minister has to say about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d63cd298c848c994dc5a8db9c4b21e\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed. Dr Clark says that he is very keen. I know the learned Minister in the chair will be all over this legislation. He would have examined it in great detail last night knowing that he was coming into the chair today, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2cd4815596f4a70bd22f2c44f6fc960\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Stu Nash knows the answer. Stu Nash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c593ccc01ccf4a6aa6b0718fafadc684\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Stu Nash does know the answer. I look forward to Stu Nash providing us with that answer when he re-enters the fray in here in a matter of months, as the incumbent has raised the white flag of surrender\u2014\u201CCuster\u2019s last stand\u201D. It is all over, and various vermin are deserting various ocean-going vessels, as it were. So I look forward to Mr Nash giving us a very good dissertation in respect of this. But it is a serious point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis legislation at its essence gives preference and a preferred status to banks. There are some reasonable rationales behind that. There are also some large risks and unfairnesses behind that, especially when everybody else sits in the second row, as it were, in terms of the hierarchy if there is a collapse. So, that being the case, we will support this bill because covered bonds already exist. As I have said, opposing it would not stop that, but not having an appropriate regulatory framework and safeguards around it would put us at a disadvantage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI come back to this point. Why is it\u2014and I would like an explanation for this, so the Minister may want to consult the learned officials\u2014a two-tiered threshold? I think people are getting quite weary of the fact that if you are a big multinational corporate\u2014say, Rio Tinto\u2014anything is possible for you. Money rains from the sky and other places in order to help the big boys out. I think Rio Tinto made $4.3 billion last year\u2014those poor souls, who are scratching for every dollar they make. I think it was about $4.3 billion or thereabouts. Yet, the Government went and gave it a big chunk of dough\u2014$30 million, of course. The Government threw money at it as if it was growing on the proverbial trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192a06341a634766a55f70e289ec4a96\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Tossed it away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a2a775a7124c5f9ce177af2225d620\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Tossed it away. [Interruption] Yes, I am coming back to it. And the point I am illustrating is in respect of covered bonds where there is a two-tiered preference system, where the big end of town stands ahead of others. Returning to my Rio Tinto point as an illustration of that, what did we get for the $30 million? Maybe Mr Bennett could tell us. We were told that there would be job security for those folks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3aca34dcefa4c8bae4d5529dda295b7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b401b06ca5864313a7ae7a86f6c5ca7d\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed\u2014job security for those folks never materialised, because the Minister never asked. As the Chair quite rightly suggests, there may well be a linkage to that in this bill. But the point is this: in the case of Rio Tinto and in the case of this bill, preference is given to the big end of town. I would suggest there are probably some more palatable reasons as to why that is the case to some degree in this bill, but certainly not in the case of Rio Tinto, certainly not in the case of the film industry, certainly not in the case of Skycity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4935ec21dfe416da533c09a0a5bec0e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Chorus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac17dce3c66426a8e02199fd552a5ff\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and certainly not, as my colleague points out, in the case of Chorus, where there is a simple solution and that solution is not a preference. That solution is an enforcement of a contract in the same way as a contract would be enforced in the private sector. It is real easy. If you negotiate a deal, and the other party is not smart enough to outsmart you in negotiating the deal and you get the better deal that they cannot deliver on, you enforce the contract. You do not run around with a begging bowl, as happened with Rio Tinto, and start throwing dough at it because the other party messed up. That is the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo there is a body of evidence now over the last 12 months that National looks after those big corporates, those mates up and down Queen Street, yet when it comes to mums and dads, they will be in the second row in respect of preference with this bill. We know over recent days that mums and dads have taken a bit of hammering out of this crowd, because mums and dads were promised all sorts of things in respect of Mighty River Power and Meridian Energy. They were promised all sorts of things and they never eventuated. So the mums and dads will be sitting in the second row, in the cheap seats\u2014as the big boys, the banks, get the covered bonds and the preference\u2014hoping that their investment positions and their financial positions are maintained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf you were an observer outside this place, you could get the impression pretty quickly that National is concerned about only those in the skyscrapers, and those behind the mirrored glass up Queen Street and a few other places. It is a bit like the bill we discussed last night, the Financial Reporting Bill, which I will not go into, apart from the theme, which was to practise what you preach, and walk the talk. High standards outside are required of other parties, but there are low standards in this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Government that we will support this, but I think it is worth it for the record that the Minister gets on record an explanation, a detailed one, for the difference in the limit of the bank\u2019s asset base, which is 10 percent, as opposed to the 6.75 percent limit in Australia. Why the difference? I think it is a simple question. The officials will be able to tell him if he does not know. I think for the record, as we go through this legislation, that that is very important. This legislation will have a benefit for some. Hopefully, it will provide another mechanism for financial stability. But there will be those left wondering why that preference exists and why that difference in the limits exists in respect of Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say in conclusion that we look forward to the Minister providing some detailed explanations, specifically on that matter. If he chooses not to provide those explanations, can I say to him that that would be quite telling in terms of his stewardship of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3859c7535a64a1eb2c156e211a9f0e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3859c7535a64a1eb2c156e211a9f0e2\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill on behalf of New Zealand First. New Zealand First will be supporting this legislation. Covered bonds go back to the 1700s. Denmark was the first country back in the 1700s to issue covered bonds, so they are a very old form of financial security and an old financial tool. More recently, of course, they have been a major tool used by European banking, but in more recent times the likes of the United States Department of the Treasury introduced them in 2008, and the Australian Treasury introduced them in 2010-11. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand banks were the first in this part of the world to actually start using covered bonds, which was back in 2010, but they did not have the legislative framework to work within, which is the purpose of this bill\u2014to actually give them that legislative framework to cover those bonds. Covered bonds are debt securities that are backed by cash flows from mortgages or public sector loans. A covered bond is a corporate bond with one important enhancement: it has recourse to a pool of assets that secures or covers the bond if the originating financial institution becomes insolvent. In this day and age, in the world that we live in, it is increasingly important that we do have these guarantees put in place to ensure a stable and reliable banking system. In this respect, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill does help to bring New Zealand into line with many of our major trading partners\u2014in particular, Australia, the United States, and many of our trading partners in Europe and Asia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe did have some reservations as to why New Zealand was adopting the 10 percent maximum number of covered bonds, as compared with Australia on 8 percent. In this House, in Parliament, and throughout legislation we are regularly referring to the fact that we need to harmonise as much as possible with our major trading partner, Australia. When so much of our banking financial interests are trans-Tasman, it is somewhat puzzling as to why we would not simply adopt the same 8 percent level as Australia and that we would have a higher level. That still has not been adequately explained. Countries such as Canada, as we have heard, are as low as 4 percent. It does beg the question as to why New Zealand would go to a much higher level. At the end of the day, should a bank fail, it means that these covered bond holders have preferential call over other investors in the bank, other depositors in the bank, and, therefore, we would not necessarily want to see the first 10 percent of any failure in New Zealand go offshore to international investors first, perhaps, before mum and dad investors in New Zealand. So I think this still does need to be addressed, and I think it would be wise if the Minister could fully explain the reasons why that decision was made to go with the extra 2 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EBut, basically, this is another means of tightening up the New Zealand financial system. We saw 61 financial institutions go by the wayside in recent years, through an appalling period of New Zealand\u2019s financial history\u2014the likes of South Canterbury Finance, with $1.6 billion going down the tubes. That was picked up by the New Zealand taxpayer. That sort of thing cannot be allowed to repeat in the history of New Zealand. This bill is a mechanism to provide greater controls in this area, more certainty about investment, and more certainty about a major investment in this country. We are seeking greater investment in New Zealand. This is one means of encouraging more investment in New Zealand by international institutions. Therefore, New Zealand First believes, as it always does, that if there are improvements to our financial system and improvements to our economy, then it can only be a good thing. New Zealand First supports the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d65f28270e2447d5a6a9584cc45f19af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d65f28270e2447d5a6a9584cc45f19af\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou. M\u014Drena. I stand to support my colleague here, Dr David Clark. He and I were both, at various points in our parliamentary history, members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee and members of the Commerce Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI just want to focus a little on why the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill is necessary. In particular, I want to remind us that it gives more confidence to the international providers of capital to New Zealand. The international capital providers want to ensure that when an adverse event takes place, they have some recourse regarding their percentage of exposure and they are not completely unsecured but also having said that, that their level of priority is not such that they monster everyone else or that they are left out to dry. This is important because it speaks to the notion of certainty. It speaks to the notion that when a financial entity seeks to raise capital, it is then capable of taking a punt on how the regulatory framework will remain, to the extent that its interests are, if not protected, then certainly able to enjoy a high level of priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe are going into treacherous territory, and I hope that this bill does compensate for the gross level of uncertainty that has recently crept in in respect of the speculative statements that are being made that the Commerce Act is likely to be changed. Once you start to change the regulatory framework at the whim or at the instigation of corporate welfare lobbyists, such as those associated with Chorus, it impacts right throughout the system\u2014right throughout the system. Indeed, it can have a systemic effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThat is why, although we are going to support this bill, it is absolutely essential that people bear in mind that when international financiers look at our economy, they look at the Government. Then they look at the sense of whether or not a contract can be not only enforced but collected upon. Then they look at the institutions that a modern economy puts in place to ensure that all parties or stakeholders in a commercial equation have some level of protection. Let us just think about it. With international providers, there are obvious disciplines around the financial entities\u2014the banks. The fact that they do not pay enough tax is something that will be addressed at the end of next year, when the National members sit over here, and we on this side of the House sit over there. But at the moment that is another matter. The difficulty is how we continue to promote the positive story\u2014although there is some upside with us agreeing to this bill\u2014that regulatory frameworks will not be changed in some sort of capricious manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhat we must not do is allow the chair of a publicly listed company\u2014now a shining example of the Government\u2019s small business policy, given that Chorus has lost 40 percent of its shareholder wealth, so it probably now qualifies for a small business grant, which is presumably what the Government has in mind in terms of corporate welfare. The deeper problem is that in order to rescue that particular entity, we would then take the profound step of worsening uncertainty in terms of the commercial framework\u2014the Commerce Act and the Commerce Commission. You may be thinking: \u201CWell, Mr Jones, that pertains to what was formerly known as a large company. I think it is insolvent anyway, according to the Prime Minister, but the chair is a friend of mine.\u201D But now that is starting to spread because when directors, international lenders, and international investors see that you can capriciously change the legal framework in terms of the commercial regulatory framework, the cost of capital goes up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis bill is not going to overcome that problem. The cost of capital will go up. We have seen in here that the banks\u2014and having known one or three clever roosters in the banks myself\u2014can go and use these devices to raise capital at a lower level in the European bond markets. Let us hope they get their dollar assumptions right, having had a bit of experience myself of that in the fishing industry. When the dollar does move against you, it is not for the faint-hearted. The point I am making here is that these are sensible changes, but, unfortunately, there is a larger threat. That threat pertains to the framework that is related to how commercial transactions and investors are dealt with. We will support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 186 in the name of the Hon Bill English be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb643792b012495fbb2d1c59d96e65d6\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfc174308ec94ce6aaf889792845ba39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfc174308ec94ce6aaf889792845ba39\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN (Minister of Internal Affairs) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The bill sets out a legislative framework for the issuance of covered bonds by New Zealand - registered banks. It will provide greater clarity for both investors in covered bonds and depositors as to the treatment of the asset, securing the covered bond in the unlikely event that the issuing bank defaults. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe bill establishes a registration regime for covered bond programmes. An issuer commits an offence if it issues covered bonds other than under a covered bond programme registered by the Reserve Bank. In order to be registered the programme must meet certain registration requirements. These requirements aim to ensure that the cover pool assets are effectively segregated from the bank\u2019s other assets and a cover pool monitor is appointed to the covered bond programme to provide enhanced monitoring. Following registration, there are ongoing requirements on issuers of covered bonds\u2014in particular, reporting requirements. The issuer is required to keep the register of cover pool assets up to date and the cover pool monitor must be required by their contract to assess the issuer\u2019s compliance with that requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe bill then clarifies the application of the law in relation to cover pool assets of a registered covered bond programme in the event that the bank that issued the covered bonds is placed into statutory management or into liquidation. The bill includes a transition period that delays the application of the bill to existing covered bond programmes to allow time for amendments to be made to the programmes to meet the registration requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThis bill is important as it will improve the access of New Zealand banks to offshore covered bond markets. Covered bonds enable banks to obtain finance at a reasonable cost at times when it is difficult to issue other forms of debt. Further, covered bonds provide New Zealand banks with a source of long-term funding, which is important to reduce the vulnerability of the New Zealand economy to sudden changes in investment sentiment. This helps to promote overall financial stability, and as such it does benefit all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to thank the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their prompt consideration of this bill, and also officials, who have engaged with the industry and with other political parties. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002252ca1a3fb36e4f31bd87098bc15fc557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252ca1a3fb36e4f31bd87098bc15fc557\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As we have already said\u2014and we will not labour the point\u2014the Labour Party will be supporting the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill, with some reservations. We note that covered bonds already exist and can be legally issued in New Zealand, but they lack a regulatory framework, which in itself could indeed generate instability. So opposing the legislation will not prevent the issuance of covered bonds. It will merely, as I have said, leave New Zealand without regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe note that the effect of covered bonds is to create a class of lenders to banks who have a higher level of security over banks compared with others. We have said in the previous speeches that have been made that we have some reservation about this, given that there is an inherent unfairness that a two-tiered system has created. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMost covered bond holders are foreign institutions. The question is where that leaves mum and dad investors. We know that in recent days, as we noted in the Committee stage, the preference given to foreign entities, institutions, brokerage houses, and others over and above the mum and dad shareholders has been evidenced\u2014contrary to stated Government policy and commitment. It has been evidenced through the recent sale of Air New Zealand, where the Government went out to the big end of town, and the best that mum and dad could do was wait until the shares hit the market and then make a purchase. That was not the agreement. We know that the big end of town and the foreign institutions were in like big, hungry dogs, hoovering up those shares\u2014as was the case with Meridian Energy and Mighty River Power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs we said in the Committee stage, there is a series of precedents where this Government has preferred the large corporates in the formation of Government policy in respect of the film industry, Skycity, Rio Tinto, latterly Chorus, Meridian Energy, and others. One would be forgiven, I think, for sitting outside this place and looking at this piece of legislation with some scepticism, bearing in mind that we all agree that it is imperative to ensure that there is financial stability within the commercial sector. But mum and dad Kiwis might be forgiven for looking at this piece of legislation with a tad of cynicism, given the Government\u2019s penchant for looking after its mates up Queen Street. That is a fact, and the difficulty with that is that even if this legislation, which does make good sense in large part in terms of increasing the stability of the financial sector, gets degraded\u2014if the integrity of that legislation gets degraded by the past and present actions of this Government\u2014the question is where that leaves mum and dad. Where are those second-tier investors left as they sit in the cheap seats while the big boys secure their base? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe other point that we raised in the Committee stage was the differing limits between us and, say, Australia\u2014the proposed limit being 10 percent of an asset base. We did ask the Minister in the chair for an explanation. We thought there might have been one or two who sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee and dealt with this legislation\u2014Mr Goldsmith, Mr Bennett, I think, and one or two others who were hovering around the Chamber mid-morning\u2014who might have assisted the Minister in providing an answer, which he chose not to give. I think that is unfortunate because a question does hang over the legislation as to why there is a difference. The Minister could have sought advice from his officials and put on the record why that difference exists, to give some commentary as we move through the final passage of this bill. Or those learned colleagues opposite who were on the select committee and part of the processing of this bill\u2014and there was not a heck of a lot of politics in this, I have to say\u2014could have taken a call and could have provided, perhaps, an explanation, because that is left hanging in the ether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House no one wants to see a financial collapse. I do not think there is anybody in this Parliament who would want to see instability rendered upon our economy, putting commercial entities at risk, and ultimately putting investors\u2019 money at risk, particularly those folks who have squirreled a bit away in trying to make some sort of capital increase or increase in value on their investments. It is in everybody\u2019s interest to create and reinforce an environment of financial stability, avoid collapses, and avoid difficulties within the commercial sector. However, that has to be done in an appropriate way, and although we support this bill, as I say, we want to make it very, very clear that this bill follows a history of preference given to some over others. We think that is a concern. Even if that might be appropriate in this legislation, it is undermined by the actions of this Government in other portfolio areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EProbably the biggest example is, as I said in the Committee stage, Rio Tinto, where it appears on the face of it that money was simply just thrown at an entity. I do not know whether Bill English got down on both bended knees or just one. The last time I checked, when you actually try to strike a deal, you try to get a bit back for yourself. When you do a deal with someone, there has got to be something in it for them. What is that wonderful phrase that Peter Dunne used? \u201CWilling buyer, willing seller.\u201D But, generally, both parties come away with something. This was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220249798360a8423d8548e3aed1b1e104\u0022\u003EAndrew Little\u003C/span\u003E: At least his dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222958c96f9154192807b92cce7ab6d3e\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed. Well, if you do not get anything, at least your dignity is intact\u2014Mr Little is right. But in this case it was a bizarre example of Rio Tinto bending the Government literally over the barrel, waiting to spring the trap because it had nailed itself to a deadline. And it sprung it, all right. Rio Tinto tied the noose around Mr English on his ankles and dangled him up the flagpole until he squealed enough and gave enough and it ended up with a decrease in power price, half the notice period, and, just for good measure, because I suppose we are getting near Christmas, 30 million pieces of silver\u201430 million bucks. Then you look at the other side and you ask what the taxpayer got\u2014zip, zero, nada.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a557b256f0f42ce8757ada74cbed756\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: The comfort of increased profit for Rio Tinto.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f882d71a2d5c47aa92748f3ca0cba381\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague says: \u201CThe comfort of knowing that\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022911bf221e86f4a9992fac6f3c1cf0bc0\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: They only made a few billion last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce7d12f209b45f7b508a0e2eb3da1c6\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cthat multibillion-dollar company Rio Tinto would be kept warm in its old age and maybe a more\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ba096746164cc4a9251399ea63f127\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4a5e772e23c4407a34904e8d99c9ae3\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed. Well, indeed. This is also about transparency. Maybe Rio Tinto will be able to afford a nicer bottle of Scotch to whip around the board table, for the brothers and sisters, a few extra Chrissie presents, and another room on the house, thanks to Bill English. The truth is this: what did we get? Nothing. What were we told? Job security. What did we find out? He did not even ask for the jobs to be secured. What do we now know? That many of those jobs are slowly, in the restructuring, going\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a43a98fde6484cfa845f7ecdf1e0da33\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220572bae3d61b40f48140f44b8603363e\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. Thank you. I was getting a tad emotional there, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am glad you brought me back to the bill, because when it comes to potential job losses, we on this side get a tad emotional about that because we care about those folks and we do not like people being given falsehoods and false hopes, especially by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWith that small contribution, we will support the bill. We will be monitoring it closely, and I think it deserves, as it is implemented, close monitoring not only by this Parliament but by others outside this Parliament. As I say, we all in this place I think are for financial stability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e07d673844847c193c399510d1b1434\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What about Mainzeal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224dfd6895d4e435a9267bb7c66be2fc0\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for ensuring that people\u2019s investments are secured, given that there is no such thing as a zero-risk investment. You know, every time you spend a dollar, every time you invest a dollar, you take risk, and there is no way any Parliament can perfect a zero-risk investment. But you do see collapses, as my colleague said, like Mainzeal Property and Construction, where, again, the big boys got secured. They got the security blanket, and those at the bottom of the heap and those subcontractors and others just had to sort of wait in the queue with the tin cup out, hoping somebody might put a dollop of soup in it, in the form of some monetary compensation, or actually get their money back so that they could move on to other things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe will be monitoring this. We look forward to some interesting contributions in the third reading. I hope that Mr Goldsmith might take up the challenge and actually talk about why that 10 percent limit is different from, say, Australia\u2019s limit, and maybe give us his thesis as to why he thinks that is appropriate, given that the Minister was sadly lacking. He either was not interested in the bill or did not understand the bill. It is probably the latter. But it would be helpful, perhaps, if some members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee who put this bill through actually stood up and gave some sort of narrative around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00228a5b64f8e990408380851f7043f1a047\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a5b64f8e990408380851f7043f1a047\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on the third reading of this bill, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill. Ultimately, this bill is an important part of the Government\u2019s programme to improve the resilience of the New Zealand financial system to volatility in international markets. The Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill establishes a legislative framework for the issuance of covered bonds by New Zealand - registered banks. It will provide greater clarity for investors and depositors, improving on the current legal ambiguity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo under this bill the New Zealand banks issuing covered bonds will have to register their covered bond programmes with the Reserve Bank and notify the Reserve Bank of issuance of covered bonds under the programme. Legal certainty will increase economic efficiency and financial stability because the banks will not have to pay an uncertainty premium to obtain covered bond funding and because certainty will improve banks\u2019 access to the covered bond market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EUltimately, that helps promote the sound and efficient operation of our financial system and, ultimately, that helps by lifting our economic performance. Through that, we can create jobs, boost incomes, improve living standards, and provide the world-class public services that Kiwi families need. This bill is only a small part of the jigsaw, but it all goes to create that brighter future that New Zealanders look forward to under this National Government. On that basis I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3b356a06bb84bb9ba23a9a13933635f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3b356a06bb84bb9ba23a9a13933635f\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E Well, after that brief contribution from the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147afe0825bc4238855e9a70d8f3f229\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Less than 2 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242fbb7d16e0546448bf7afba1a079fbc\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Less than 2 minutes, Paul Goldsmith. We call him \u201Cless than 2 minutes Paul Goldsmith\u201D; I hear others do too. He failed, I am afraid, to address the issue of why 10 percent should be the right number and why the international interest should be protected at that level when overseas jurisdictions protect at a lower level. I mean, it is a little surprising. Mr Goldsmith is normally\u2014at least, technically\u2014well versed in these things, although his slightly jaundiced view of the world sees the kinds of Thatcherite policies he prefers often put forward\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270df345759b84b299645b46f95e96fac\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Be fair, he wrote John Banks\u2019 biography.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b32ecc4018474a40936315b8ac6d0c64\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, my colleague reminds me that he wrote John Banks\u2019 biography. He is wondering whether there will be a sequel. But normally Mr Goldsmith is well versed in the actual technicalities of the issue and will put forward an argument, at least, in defence of a position. I guess it is a bit disappointing to the House that he is not prepared even to defend the legislation here. He is simply willing to see the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022370d916e94a5435eb2346ce50f8e4448\u0022\u003EPaul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re supporting it, aren\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e42213aae9ec4851a24a517173c3d5ce\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: He says that the Labour Party is supporting it, which we are because we need some regulatory framework, but we have already drawn attention to the inadequacy in that respect, and it is a shame that the Government will not even articulate\u2014and maybe it has lost faith in\u2014its own view about where that line should be drawn. That is symptomatic, perhaps, of a Government that is out of touch\u2014just get it done, get it in place\u2014but it is a long way down the track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe are passing the bill under urgency. We have had 2 years of unregulated bond issue. There has been no regulation covering financial bonds. In fact, it may be longer now. There has been no oversight or regulation. There has been a very tardy response, as you have heard, and not well articulated as to why the line has been drawn where it has been drawn, and why it should be higher here in protecting international interests and big-business interests over small-business interests\u2014those who risk their shirt every day, in terms of putting their own shoulder to the wheel, mortgaging their own houses, and so on. No argument has been put forward by Mr Goldsmith on that front. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is typical of this Government. It is 5 years since the global financial crisis, and we have had 5 long years of this Government, which has been very tardy to address issues in the financial sector and, certainly, where it protects small investors and small lenders. It seems not to be a priority for it at all. In fact, on that side of the House it seems to have rather a negative view towards small-business people. National members would much rather protect the interests of capital, the vested interests, those who already have the money\u2014the 1 percent\u2014and the people who are their financial backers. It is a real shame that National members are not interested in the broader prosperity of New Zealanders and the opportunities that are presented for New Zealand\u2019s future in having every New Zealander succeed, having a country where all can live in dignity and make their best contribution. But that is National and New Zealanders are getting a little tired of it, and I expect that will be reflected in the next election. When a Government gets out of touch, when it has been here too long, the voters start to turn off and they start to ask what the alternative is, and we are certainly hearing that around the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis lack of oversight of the covered bond market is indicative, as I have said, of a Government that has got its eye off the ball and is in no particular hurry to protect the small-business people of New Zealand. This approach is already in place in the UK, Australia, Canada, and other jurisdictions, and has been in place for a long time. Opposing this legislation, if we were to do that on that detail, would see only further delays, and that is the point I would make to Mr Goldsmith, who seems strangely silent now. He is not responding in any way. In fact, he is almost invisible in this debate right now, I would suggest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis lack of regulation is paralleled in other areas and it is unfortunate for New Zealand. The Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme was another scheme designed to protect a run on banks, designed to make sure that those creditors did not pull out, and designed so that we had secured lending for the country, and it is estimated that $500 million of taxpayers\u2019 money was lost as a result of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme. This Government has failed\u2014absolutely failed\u2014to investigate it. It failed to have an oversight of that lending scheme, and the likes of South Canterbury Finance and others have collapsed because of dodgy lending. Likewise, other finance companies increased their loan books with dodgy loans of up to 10 percent because it was Crown guaranteed. That is taxpayers\u2019 money that has been handed over to those lending companies. It has been handed over willy-nilly by a Government that failed to observe what was going on when it signed a blank cheque, gave it out to those companies, and said: \u201CWe will guarantee all of your lending.\u201D Of course many people invested, but particularly those with interests that were not necessarily straightforward. Many ordinary New Zealanders invested their savings, got caught up, and got hurt, and taxpayers, as I say, have footed the bill for all of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis Government has steadfastly refused to investigate, and that is typical of the lack of oversight that we see here in this legislation\u2014the lack of willingness to regulate in favour of the mum and dad depositors and to look out for the interests of those who mortgaged their own houses to contribute to our economy. We saw that with the collapse of Mainzeal Property and Construction. The large firms got out OK, but the subcontractors could not even get their tools off the building site. That is why I think that the proposals put forward by my colleague Clayton Cosgrove, the excellent proposals he has consulted on, around making sure that subcontractors get their dues when they are contributing to projects in New Zealand are well worth thinking about and well worth debating. I do not expect we will see much progress from this Government, which seems very disinterested in small business and the little guy who works to get ahead, or the woman or man who risks their own house in order to get ahead. There have been $6 billion worth of bonds issued over 2 years without any regulatory oversight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo it is good that this is finally being addressed by this Government, albeit it is being done in a fairly tardy fashion. The point that Mr Goldsmith did not address was why these big lenders should be protected at a rate of 10 percent: why are 10 percent of a bank\u2019s assets being run in this way as opposed to 4 percent in Canada or 8 percent in Australia. The arguments were not strong at the Finance and Expenditure Committee in favour of having a bigger protection for the big end of town in New Zealand than in those other countries. The Finance and Expenditure Committee chair, Paul Goldsmith, was content to let that slide through. Mr Goldsmith\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3d502f70b04366b18519f0f4998e5c\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: The chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5dc9a05a234d5a806c60f617e7d18d\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, subsequently the chair. There was another chair at the time. Mr Goldsmith is now the chair of the committee and, again, is very silent on the issue. As I look across the House I see no response\u2014not even a glimmer in his eye can I see across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9918bbc2da2446b995d5d47f4e6ef1f\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was a glazed look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274c3b4fdd1b340b09b6047d264fc9e52\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: A glazed look? I cannot see it now. I cannot even make eye contact with the man. He is absorbed in other things\u2014probably a little bit ashamed of the legislation in its current form. But there we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe three elements of the legislation are a requirement that covered bonds issued by New Zealand banks be registered, subject to meeting registration requirements. It is a sensible step. We can see what is going on. We can make sure they are not exceeding the limit, even though it is rather high. The fact that there will be independent monitoring of covered pools by an asset monitor makes sense and the provisions to amend the Act to clarify the treatment of registered covered bonds in the event of issuer insolvency all make sense as measures in terms of the framework that has been set up. So we will be supporting the legislation. We have noted our concerns, our reservations about the level of covered bonds in New Zealand as opposed to those overseas jurisdictions, which seem more interested in growing new businesses and supporting entrepreneurs than in supporting vested capital interests, but that is the National Government. It is there for the 1 percent, to protect the capital interests of some of its mates. Even the big corporate interests are not safe; it is only the ones that have got the Prime Minister\u2019s ear, it seems. We saw that with the casino deal, we have seen that with Bill English and Rio Tinto, and no doubt we will see that with Chorus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt is only the ones that have the immediate ear of the leaders of the National Party that seem to be able to get the handouts as and when they wish for them. Not all big businesses seem to get the fair treatment; it is only some that are close to the National Party. That is something New Zealanders are growing increasingly tired of and something I hear over and over again in my electorate. New Zealanders are getting sick of a Government that does everything by deals and that is not prepared to regulate markets in good time to make sure that they are acting in the wider New Zealand interest. This is one of those examples here. We are glad that the Government has finally come round to regulating this sector, albeit in a kind of slightly haphazard way that it is not prepared to defend. But it is good. This is a Government that has got a terrible record on unemployment, which is much higher than when it took office. Real wages are worth less\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d78ac43e86ec4708ba28c57c9b03130c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d78ac43e86ec4708ba28c57c9b03130c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9a28b972f314e12929d2847b585e04e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9a28b972f314e12929d2847b585e04e\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill. The Green Party will be supporting this legislation, even though we have some significant concerns about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOne way to think about this legislation is that it is kind of like the equivalent of raising the private debt ceiling for New Zealand. There has been a lot of debate in the United States about raising the debt ceiling for borrowing by the US Government. I think it is something in the order of US$16 trillion at the moment. Likewise, in Australia at the moment there is a very lively debate because the conservative Government over there wants to increase the debt ceiling of the Australian Government to A$500 billion, and the Greens have been resisting that, suggesting that it should be a lower debt ceiling of A$400 billion. But in some senses what the covered bonds bill does is that it regulates a sector that enables the New Zealand private sector economy to borrow even more. It regulates that kind of borrowing and essentially facilitates more borrowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo although this bill is a necessary step, and we will be supporting it for that reason, we should admit and recognise the underlying addiction to debt of the New Zealand economy that this bill is really a reflection of. Essentially, it is like raising the private debt ceiling for the New Zealand economy as a whole, because what it says is that New Zealand runs these huge current account deficits, it has this massive external debt\u2014somewhere in the order of $260 billion now, in gross terms\u2014and the plan looking forward is to increase the debt and to not pay our way in the world. That is this Government\u2019s plan. The Government\u2019s plan is to run very large current account deficits, currently in the order of 4.3 percent of GDP, which is the second-largest in the OECD after Turkey. So New Zealand runs these very large current account deficits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn order to finance these current account deficits, we either borrow from offshore or we sell assets. New Zealand currently does a mixture of both, so we are slowly selling off our productive land into overseas ownership. Most of the large corporations have already been sold into overseas ownership. We can look at the banking sector for the obvious example of that, and in telecommunications it is a similar story. Then the other part of it is that we just borrow from offshore, and the banks are the mechanism, essentially, to do that. So the banks do most of the borrowing and then channel it into the New Zealand economy. What this bill does is regulate a part of the banks\u2019 borrowing, the covered bonds section. So the banks borrow offshore, using these covered bonds mechanisms, in order to lend into the New Zealand economy and increase the debt of the New Zealand economy as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EYes, it is good that we are regulating this sector, but surely, alongside the regulating of this borrowing problem that the New Zealand economy has, we should also have a plan to get ourselves out of constantly having to borrow from offshore in order to pay our bills. Unfortunately, although this Government came into office\u2014and Bill English said some really important things about trying to rebalance the economy, where he recognised this problem. He said that international debt is the central biggest threat facing the New Zealand economy\u2014of course, it is the current account deficit that sits behind the growth of that international debt\u2014and Bill English talked a lot about trying to get a balance put between the tradable sector and the non-tradable sector, so that New Zealand could trade its way out of its debt position. But as he has failed to achieve that goal, which was a very sensible goal, he no longer talks about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo when we look at the difference between the tradable sector and the non-tradable sector, what we are finding is that the tradable sector is continuing to flat-line in New Zealand, and that means that we cannot solve the debt problem. Because we cannot trade our way out of it, we are continuing to borrow offshore in order to finance this debt problem we have. Once we say: \u201COK, there\u2019s no plan from the Government to get ourselves out of increasing our borrowing and increasing our foreign debt\u201D\u2014in fact, the Government has a plan to increase the debt\u2014\u201Cand if the Government\u2019s plan is to increase the debt, then what we need is a mechanism to regulate and facilitate this dramatic increase in debt that the New Zealand economy is loading up.\u201D, and that is what this bill does. This bill provides a way in which the banks can go to the offshore lenders and say: \u201CWe want to borrow more money to loan into New Zealand, but in order to do that, we will give you first bid on home mortgages in New Zealand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo if one of these Australian-owned banks that are operating in New Zealand goes belly up, it will be the foreign lenders that get the first bite of the cherry at the carcass of the Australian bank when it rolls over. It is on that basis that the foreign lenders will keep lending into the New Zealand economy. I mean, that is the fundamental principle that sits behind the covered bonds bill. It means that if one of the Australian banks goes belly up and you are a depositor in that bank, you will not get your money until the foreign lender gets its money, because it is essentially first in the queue as a result of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThat has a certain logic to it because we are trying to facilitate the constant flow of foreign lending into the New Zealand economy, and this bill provides a way to facilitate that and tries to decrease the cost of that lending by providing security to those overseas lenders, but what it means is that depositors in New Zealand banks are now not at the front of the queue. It is the foreign lenders who are at the front of the queue when it comes to getting access to the assets if one of those banks goes belly up. You might say: \u201CWell, if we are a country that is constantly borrowing, this is just what we have to do.\u201D, and there is a logic to that. I appreciate that, and that is why we are voting for the bill. But, surely, this should make us look at our economic strategy as a country and say: \u201CWell, isn\u2019t it funny that we are sitting here today in Parliament in order to pass a piece of legislation to make it easier for us to increase our borrowing from offshore?\u201D. Should that not make us think: \u201CIs this really a sustainable strategy for New Zealand as a whole, to constantly run very large current account deficits\u201D\u2014the second-worst in the OECD\u2014\u201Cand use all that offshore money to finance the New Zealand economy?\u201D Is that a sustainable economic strategy for our country? We finance a current account deficit by borrowing, which this bill will facilitate by enabling more borrowing, and we do it by selling assets. Is that really a sustainable strategy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOf course, you could keep doing it for quite a long time. We know that. New Zealand has run chronic current account deficits. So, you know, the Government says this when we press it about it. It says that New Zealand has run a current account deficit for a long time, and that is true. You can keep doing it because we do have significant assets. We have still got a lot of land we have not sold off\u2014probably about 90 percent of the land is still in New Zealand ownership. We still have some large corporates that have not been sold off, but most of them have been. We still have some facility to borrow further. As we are seeing with this bill, we can borrow more money from our offshore lenders, and they will keep doing that for a while because we still have some space to borrow more. But is this really where we want to go? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EDo we want to say that what we are going to do is max out our ability to borrow cash from offshore, using things like this bill\u2014we are going to max the credit card out, we are going to sell the house, and we are going sell off as many assets as we can in order to fund our current consumption? Because that is what we are doing as our economic strategy as a country, and we have now done that for a couple of decades. In order to fund current consumption, we are selling off our assets and borrowing from offshore, and this bill is the next logical step in that economic strategy, by facilitating this offshore borrowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI would argue that this is not a wise strategy for our country. What we need from our Government is a clear, clear strategy for how it is going to get us out of this position. The Greens have put up various proposals on exactly this issue, and it is the focus of our economic policy to rebalance the New Zealand economy. The Government made certain noises in that direction, but so far it has failed to deal with the underlying problems. But this bill surely should be a moment when we look at ourselves and say: \u201CWhy are we standing in this House passing a bill in order to make it easier for us to borrow billions and billions more from offshore?\u201D. Surely, that should be a moment to stop and say that our economic strategy is not working. When our economic strategy relies on offshore borrowing and selling our assets every year, for year after year after year after year after year, this is not going to have a happy ending. At some point our offshore creditors are going to either dramatically increase the cost of borrowing for the New Zealand economy or start actually restricting our access to credit. At that point there will be a significant adjustment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI would argue it is a much more sane strategy to start to make that adjustment ourselves now so that we can get out of the hole we are in, rather than leave it up to our creditors 10 years down the track who are going to make that adjustment for us, because they will do that. That is the real choice we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it puts off the day when we have to make that choice, because it says: \u201CWell, we\u2019ll facilitate these creditors lending us more money by giving them first dibs on the assets of the banks\u201D\u2014which are the home mortgages\u2014\u201Cand then the foreign lenders will lend us more money.\u201D OK, that is true. It does put off the day of reckoning. That is true. But to think that this solves the underlying problem is, I think, extremely foolish. If the Government does not realise that, and it does not seem to, then we have got a problem and the Government needs to change. Actually, we need to deal with that underlying problem as reflected in the current account numbers and as reflected in the gross external debt numbers. This bill does not do anything to do that. It simply enables us to keep borrowing. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022 data-id=\u002297ee7b02e35347fb9dd3221aa10e890e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297ee7b02e35347fb9dd3221aa10e890e\u0022\u003EMAGGIE BARRY (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill in its third reading. It is a bill that enjoys universal support, but you would be forgiven for not thinking that if you listened to the Opposition grumbling on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EWe have, indeed, heard a lot of stuff and nonsense from the Opposition parties. In a manner of speaking, they want to reinvent the wheel. When it comes to\u2014let us just take one aspect\u2014the Reserve Bank, they want to broaden it out and remove the independence of the Reserve Bank. It has served us well for three decades. Leave it as it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003ELabour members, particularly, seem to be under the illusion that is going to be a body that will generate a lot of income, that those members would be able to change interest rates, and that the Reserve Bank in a changed role would mean a changed economy. That is, of course, wrong and delusional, like much of Labour\u2019s policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022736a5c0b-8df3-4047-ba26-632ba2798b4c\u0022\u003EI guess, you know, that when you look at what this bill does\u2014and it enjoys the widespread support of the House\u2014there is not a lot more to be said. Peddling the old arguments would just be a waste of the House\u2019s time. So, without further ado, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022915ddaabd32d4aaeb5d8d6531e76b51a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022915ddaabd32d4aaeb5d8d6531e76b51a\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to take a call following the member for the North Shore, Maggie Barry, and the amazing amount of information she provided to the House in that, once again, very short speech from the member for the North Shore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWe still have not heard the answer\u2014despite it being asked in the Committee stage and by speakers in this third reading, we do not have the answer\u2014as to why the 10 percent figure was chosen, while Australia has 8 percent for the covered bonds market. In the likes of Canada it is 4 percent, and other jurisdictions around the world range between that figure of 4 and 8 percent. We still have not had the answer. We have had members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, including Paul Goldsmith, the current chair, and other members of the committee, including Maggie Barry, and yet not one of them has answered the question. It is somewhat surprising that in the House of Representatives, where quite clearly it is a pretty black and white situation\u2014why has New Zealand adopted a 10 percent ceiling? The officials are sitting over there. I am sure they know the answer. I am sure they would love to give us the answer. It is probably a very sound and solid answer. It is probably a justifiable answer, but we still have not been given the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ENow we have got the Hon Gerry Brownlee in the House. Perhaps the Hon Gerry Brownlee has come along with the answer. Maybe he has been researching it all morning, working out why it is 10 percent. He has probably been sitting up there on about the sixth floor of the Beehive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ee33679955d4365bede45101f5741e5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, seventh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dca8b9e6e3634b0f97a49ad23c5ee3bc\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you are on the seventh floor, Gerry? And he has been ringing through to Bill English\u2019s office, saying: \u201CBill, why is it 10 percent?\u201D. And Bill says: \u201CI don\u2019t know, Gerry. I wouldn\u2019t have a clue why is 10 percent. It is 10 percent.\u201D And Gerry says: \u201CWell, I am going down to the House shortly, and I should know why it is 10 percent, because I hate going the House and not being able to answer the question.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EWith Gerry Brownlee being the Leader of the House, I would have thought that he would have done his homework. He would have been up there on the seventh floor, and he would have heard this debate. He would have been riveted to the television all morning, and he would have said: \u201CI am going to go down there and I am going to go explain all. I am going to explain all. I am going to tell New Zealand and I am going to tell the large viewing public out there in New Zealand why the Government has selected 10 percent, while Australia is 8 percent. I am going to explain why, when in so many other legal areas and financial areas where we try to harmonise with our big cousin over the Tasman, we have selected 10 percent rather than 8 percent.\u201D Why are we giving preference to international investors to get 10 percent\u2014get their claws on 10 percent\u2014of the funds of any financial institutions in New Zealand, should they, heaven forbid, go belly up, unlike in Australia, where they would get their claws on only 8 percent, or in Canada, where it is only 4 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EI think it would be a great shame if this bill does pass\u2014and it is going to pass, because it has unanimous support from parties in this House\u2014and if the very learned Gerry Brownlee was not able to answer that simple question, and this goes into the annals of history as being a mysterious figure that was plucked from the air and put into an Act of Parliament, but it was never answered and it was never actually determined as to how the figure came to be. But, like so much legislation put through by this Government, it was probably done with a dartboard, or, you know, with a flick of a coin. The Government probably tossed a coin and said: \u201COh, shall we make it 6 percent? Shall we make it 8 percent? Shall we make it 10 percent? Oh, let\u2019s toss a coin.\u201D So much of the legislation that is brought before this House by this Government often does not have the facts behind it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EYou know, the Government told us that the sale of the shares in the mixed-ownership model would mean we would end up with all these New Zealanders owning the power companies and Air New Zealand. And how many\u2014was it 2.5 percent of New Zealanders who now own those shares, whereas before it was 100 percent of all New Zealanders? Everyone in this room and every New Zealander out there had 100 percent ownership of those power companies. Now half of those power companies, or 49 percent of them, are owned by a miserable 2.5 percent of the elite people who can afford to go out and buy the shares in those power companies. The same has happened with Air New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f4d96dc70e4558b2d49c27103b16d2\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Winston bought some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d403f02773460bbe943751136a748b\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: The same has happened with Air New Zealand this week, Mr Bennett. Again, we all have pride in our national airline. We get on the national airline and we say: \u201CIt\u2019s ours. It\u2019s great.\u201D You know, we owned over three-quarters of it. It is our airline. Now you get on it and say: \u201COh, well, we own 53 percent.\u201D The other 47 percent could be owned by anyone\u2014could be owned by anyone. It is a bit like the power companies now. BNY Mellon bought 8 percent of Meridian Energy. Is that not shocking? Suddenly, they are in New York\u2014probably an old mate of John Key\u2019s who was a banker in New York, I would say. He probably got a phone call and said: \u201CHey, there\u2019s a good deal coming up here in New Zealand.\u201D, and the banker said: \u201COh, thanks very much, John. Here\u2014we\u2019ll be into 8 percent of that. That\u2019ll be great. Thanks for the tip. Thanks, mate. Next time you\u2019re in New York, I\u2019ll buy you a bottle of \u2018Bolly\u2019.\u201D I am sure that is probably how the conversation went. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis is what happens with all these deals with the National Government. It is happening all the time, because people\u2014the favoured few, the ones who get tapped on the shoulder by the National Government\u2014benefit, while the rest of good old average Kiwi New Zealand suffers. Good old Kiwi New Zealand suffers. As a fifth-generation New Zealander on both sides\u2014on my father\u2019s side and my mother\u2019s side\u2014can I just say that I am getting heartily sick and tired of seeing our country being sold down the river. Quite frankly, you know, my parents, my grandparents, and their parents, going right back to the 1840s in New Zealand, did not spend all their time helping to develop this country over many generations for this one generation\u2014this one generation with Gerry Brownlee, Steven Joyce, John Key, Bill English, and their ilk\u2014to sell off all the hard work of my parents, my grandparents, and their parents and parents before them. It is disgraceful, and this generation will always go down as the one that sold the wealth of New Zealand down the river for the benefit of the 2 or 3 percent who could afford to be participants in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn closing this speech, New Zealand First will support the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill because New Zealand First supports any legislation that has merit to it in terms of improving our financial systems. We have been strong opponents of the loose financial arrangements that saw 61 institutions in this country go belly up in recent years, which saw the likes of South Canterbury Finance taking more deposits in 6 to 12 months without the Minister of Finance or Treasury or anyone keeping an eye that it was taking more and more deposits, and it could not cover them. That situation cannot be allowed to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003ESo this piece of legislation is a small part of the overall framework to try to improve the financial securities in this country to ensure that we do not operate a cowboy, Wild West financial system, and to ensure that as a result there is more security for those investors, including international investors coming to New Zealand, and that we are not seen as a Third World financial place. So New Zealand First will be supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002202ead738373946c9ae9ef512eb1d9e46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202ead738373946c9ae9ef512eb1d9e46\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a short call. The Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill has got very strong support amongst members of the House. It is a good bill, which is in the best interests of New Zealand and the economy. Unfortunately, the last speaker, Andrew Williams from New Zealand First, and the Greens speaker, Russel Norman, tried to put their slant on it with their economic histories, but those were inaccurate speeches. This is very good bill, and we look forward to it progressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6e539941cef428fb06d2a7ab5f36b7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6e539941cef428fb06d2a7ab5f36b7f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I saw the member David Bennett recently at a sporting event in the great Waikato. It was probably a place that I would not be encouraged by my colleagues to go to\u2014it was the boxing. But we are not boxing today with the Leader of the House, Mr Brownlee. I am sure that at the moment he is studying the boundaries that have come out from the Representation Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnyway, let me come back to the bill, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill. We stand and support this bill. I want to actually follow up on what the co-leader of the Green Party Russel Norman had to say. The co-leader of the Green Party was pointing out that this bill ranks international lenders\u2019 interests above those of depositors. He also pointed out that it kind of makes it easier for us to stay on the trajectory that our small island nation State of 4.2 million people and $180 billion GDP is on\u2014i.e., we are too reliant on international capital for our banks. It is mediated through the banks, which are, after all, intermediaries, into a housing market that is killing our dollar. That has become so expensive that we cannot get the next generation into a level of housing either that they can afford or that suits their aspirations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is actually a compelling argument that Dr Norman puts forward, but the challenge that I am always left with is, OK, what actual remedies is he offering? I know the remedies on this side of the House, and to a certain extent they are shared by that side of the House. We are probably a lot more aggressive in saying that it is important that we engender a greater level of enthusiasm amongst households and, more important, provide support to those households to amass an indigenous body of capital, for want of a better expression, that over time lessens our reliance on international capital. But as long as the banks and, dare I say it, perhaps other financial entities are relied on to meet the shortfall of what we, as depositors, are able to contribute, those international lenders are looking for not only regulatory certainty, as I spoke about before, but a greater degree of protection. I cannot see how we can wriggle out of that at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe do have a set of policies that are designed to change the structure of the economy, unlike our colleagues on the other side of the House. I suppose I have learnt over the last 5 to 6 years that there is a greater belief on that side of the House that the market will solve all of these pitfalls, whereas on our side the reason that we are prepared to back the bill is not only a recognition of macroeconomic reality but an awareness that if you are getting people to take the risk and put their dough into various enterprises, they should have some greater sense of recourse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe need to ensure, though, that we never lose sight of what Dr Norman was also saying: what are we doing as parliamentarians? What are we doing as businesses or, indeed, as a Government or, in this case, a shadow Government to engender a greater level of commitment to save and to reward that? One thing we must not allow is the ongoing slipping away, the ongoing leaching, the ongoing loss, the ongoing spiriting away of far too much wealth out of the country, without internationally owned entities\u2014obviously, the banks are at the front of the row in that regard\u2014meeting their fair share of the tax obligation in New Zealand. If it is good enough for them to go internationally, raise capital, and bring it to New Zealand for people like me, our families, etc., who are reliant on it, it is also good enough for them, as they derive the profit from what passes as the New Zealand business and residential community, to accept the obligation, which comes with operating in a modern economy, of actually paying their fair share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI certainly look forward to joining forces with Dr Norman next year and making a major issue out of that particular challenge. Whether or not we are capable in terms of how our tax collectors are currently reconfigured is another matter. But we all believe that it is necessary\u2014and banks should be particularly knowledgable about this\u2014that we pay our fair share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet us just go back and touch on one or three things in respect of just reminding ourselves why we are doing this. In the end it is cheaper for an entity such as the BNZ bank to raise its capital internationally via these instruments. As I said earlier, I have no doubt in my mind that BNZ has got very sophisticated computer modellers ensuring that it does not get the dollar wrong. It is one thing to bring capital back in, but if you have not covered the cost it is going to impose upon you to get it out as you repay it\u2014therein lies many a tale that currently afflicts dairy farmers and has blighted the fishing industry in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAre we confident that the independent monitoring is adequate? Well, we have an independent monitor at the moment in the broad commercial sector called the Commerce Commission. The current Government is not confident about or respectful of that particular independent monitor. Any doubts about that would be allayed by the capricious way in which the Government announced that it was going to slash the commission\u2019s current powers in order to reward the narrow cast of shareholders in what is now a small business, formerly a big business, otherwise known as Chorus. It was going to give Chorus a greater degree of protection and gouge out of you and me, the consumers of the broadband services. So that is an example of how, if you put into legislation or if you posit upon a particular agency the responsibility of independent monitoring by an asset monitor, you must be consistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere are a few entities that escape the grip of the institutional monitoring function that touches the broad swath of our economy, not the least of which are the shipping lines. In addition there are a special set of concessions that were dreamt up in the time that the Labour Government enabled the dairy industry to create Fonterra, something that it consistently disregards\u2014at its peril, I might say. That is something else that will be dealt with at the end of next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is important that we challenge ourselves as parliamentarians and, in this case, the other side of the House. When you have these entities, these agencies undertaking these independent functions, do not play fast and loose with them. Do not change the law and do not monster them in order to reward a narrow range of vested interests, which we have seen most unfortunately over the last few weeks, although I get the sense that saner minds are prevailing and that there is an awareness that you cannot run a modern economy unless you protect the role of such institutions. Those institutions also have to be accountable. They have to measure up to the fact that\u2014as, indeed, the Governor of the Reserve Bank is learning to accept\u2014you may at one level be independent, but at another level you have obligations and you have a responsibility to educate, inform, and communicate. So I look forward to hearing that the entity that is going to be charged with the responsibility does not fall into the bog that seems to ensnarl the current Commerce Commission. That is nothing to do with us; it is more to do with the attitude of the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ETo return back to the base proposition of why we are going to support this thing, we realise that we are reliant on overseas lenders. We realise that it would a fantastic transformation to effect under our approach, with the leadership of our current shadow Minister of Finance and our shadow Prime Minister, Mr Cunliffe. If we want to reduce over time the reliance, we need to husband our own domestic resources. We need to reward people for doing that. We need to ensure that the tax system does not penalise people in terms of going without now in order to enjoy something in the future, so it does not represent an impossible burden in terms of future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI am talking here not only of the fiscal discipline needed; I am talking not only of a reliance on international capital, but of our ability to care for ourselves. This is why it is very, very important that we manage the transition, so that we have got access to overseas funding at competitive rates, but at the same time never lose sight of the fact that this generation of New Zealanders\u2014i.e., those of us born in the 1950s and 1960s\u2014have an obligation to ensure that when we agree to pieces of legislation like this, we never lose sight of the fact that we have to pay our own way. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00226698655646184ee9bbecef93c5b373e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226698655646184ee9bbecef93c5b373e6\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I am in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fff733e69f6b4e498ee61b6062dba8a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fff733e69f6b4e498ee61b6062dba8a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party, aware of the caution that is needed around this issue, does support the bill, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill. As earlier speakers have said, one of the problems in New Zealand is that covered bonds, which create a class of deposits that are lent to New Zealand banks, give the people who have the benefit of that covered bond a preferential interest in the assets of the bank in the event that it goes broke. The amount that is left for people who are outside that covered bond arrangement is less, and they wear a more than proportionate share of the loss in the event that there are not enough assets when the bank is wound up to cover the amount that has been deposited in the bank. The problem we have got in New Zealand at the moment is that that is allowed to happen, but it is an unregulated activity and the Reserve Bank has not had a direct tool to control the level of those covered bonds. So, on balance, we in the Labour Party accept that it is necessary to regulate covered bonds so that there is a clear limit on the amount that can be covered, ahead of other unsecured depositors in the bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI agree with Russel Norman that it is unfortunate we have got to the point in New Zealand that we are so reliant on foreign capital that we have had to legitimise covered bonds and create this differential between the rights on wind-up of those who have the benefit of covered bonds, compared with those who do not. I also agree with the Hon Shane Jones that the long-term key to overcoming this and perhaps backing out of covered bonds is having a more effective New Zealand economy. The capital part of that is reliant on increases in productivity\u2014sorry, I should not have said it in quite that way. All of the factors of achieving that better economic outcome are interlinked, but an important part of achieving the increase in productivity and increasing the wealth that we need is to improve the pool of New Zealand investment capital that is going into the productive economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe two most important ingredients of that have been completely ignored by this Government. The Government refuses to make KiwiSaver universal\u2014a compulsory scheme like they have in Australia, which has stood them in good stead. Indeed, no one should forget that National railed against KiwiSaver, voted against it, and has tinkered with the details of it since it came into Parliament as the Government in 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f76e1fc30e74e2aa6c592f372ec24b3\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: And the Cullen fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b99bec1be1a4f6682199b54b24d49f5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: KiwiSaver needs to be made universal. National does get all these big calls wrong, when it comes to the long-term wealth of our country. As Shane Jones has said, National also ceased contributions to the Cullen fund at a time when borrowing rates for Governments were at historic lows and it was obvious, following the clean out in the global financial crisis, that returns on equities in the future from that low base would be higher than the Crown cost of funds. Despite that, Bill English ceased contributions to the Cullen fund, and as a consequence that fund, or the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, as it is more properly called, is some billions of dollars smaller, both in terms of contributions that were not made to it and also earnings that would have been made in addition on those contributions. So that is the second bad call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe third one that impacts upon this is not getting the tax signal right, so that we encourage too many people in New Zealand to put their investment money not into a bank deposit or into a share, both of which can improve the productive economy, but into residential rental investment, which drags money out of the productive economy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0d0418366c14d7cb3f82810ad9f49ec\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Too many vested interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d757e42676ce4610ab43df04731fed84\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and also at the same time increases the demand for money to come from offshore into New Zealand banks, to feed that appetite for more borrowing for mortgages. As Dr Clark just intervened there, one of the reasons they do that is that they are determined to protect the vested interests of those who do not want the relative value of property assets in the rental market to change relative to the value of investments in the productive economy. They are happy to continue preferring the interests of speculators over the productive economy, and as a consequence we have just had another report to show that New Zealand does not get as much in terms of returns from tertiary education because we do not invest enough capital in our productive enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAll of these problems are interlinked. This bill, in so far as it goes, is a bill that we are supporting, but it does not cure the underlying problems that have led to its need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u00221ded6fbdd78e44e1bc0198739eca6887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ded6fbdd78e44e1bc0198739eca6887\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E I support this Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224deca96e2e1e46f08e37ecefa4a7a524\u0022\u003ENon-bank Deposit Takers Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226eeaae661c84426b86b37fc1fb72c29b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002212c13f80c4124957acd75e022516e6bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212c13f80c4124957acd75e022516e6bb\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee to take the parts, schedules, and clauses of the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb85ae0ded304316a1c112a8b0415115\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d13621e75d04f4897706c9b6aeef2b1\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e05b12da45cc4f759d6162f3e7e16d1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e05b12da45cc4f759d6162f3e7e16d1c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The question I would like to ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery, is about the impact of this Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill on credit unions. This bill makes changes to the prudential requirements that are imposed by the Reserve Bank and extends these measures to non-bank deposit takers. These are people who take money on deposit from New Zealanders who are investing to get an interest return, but who are not a bank, because the banks are already covered by the prudential requirements that are managed by the Reserve Bank on behalf of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister in the chair is whether the extension of the new measures to non-bank deposit takers applies to credit unions, and whether that is wise. We heard from credit unions at the Finance and Expenditure Committee that they are concerned at their overall level of regulation. Credit unions generally take small amounts of deposit from New Zealanders, and they lend it on small amounts of loans, generally in the consumer finance area. They are concerned that the measures of this bill do not overly tie them up in red tape, given that they are not really posing a great risk to the New Zealand financial institutions overall because they are such a small part of the overall financial services sector. They do not want to be tied up in unnecessary regulation that causes them more trouble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are a number of things that need to be fixed for credit unions that are not addressed by this bill. If I might, I will just mention them very briefly. One is that rather than have two trustees, they effectively have to have a statutory trustee and then another trustee who holds investments in their name or on their behalf. They cannot hold the investments in the name of the credit union because the credit union is not a legal purpose for banking purposes. That is not fixed by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThey are currently restricted from lending to non-real people, so despite the fact that a lot of people who used to be employed, for example, by the post office are now a tied contractor through a small corporate entity, which might provide services to, say, Chorus, any loan that was made, for example, to such a small company for a vehicle could not be made by a credit union if it was being made to a corporate entity. Those sorts of things also need to be tidied up. I would like to hear from the Minister as to whether he has a view on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022872bb442769d4555acac406258e88098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022872bb442769d4555acac406258e88098\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I think we should acknowledge right from the start that the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill is a complete waste of time. Effectively, it moves legislation from one area to another, and Parliament\u2019s time could be better spent, especially in urgency when we are supposed to be prioritising legislation that really makes a difference at short notice to our economy and to its settings. We have just debated a bill that has been sitting around for a long time in respect of the level of\u2014what was it? It is slipping from my mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1c6ccef416940d286d40dbe95dd77bc\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Covered bonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175ee7ed0c3340cab3a63b869482402f\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It was the level of covered bonds, sorry. Thank you to my colleague. It was legislation that was important to have in place, eventually. It has taken the Government a long time to get there. We are debating things under urgency that ought to really, I guess, have been tidied up earlier on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government, though, that seems to have its eyes off the ball. David Parker has already alluded to many other things that could make our economy more productive and that could change the relative balance between the productive and speculative sectors in order to make a more productive economy. That would help this Government\u2019s fortunes. It does not seem to be interested in the wider interests of the New Zealand economy, preferring instead the deals with the likes of Chorus that we see being cooked up at the moment; Skycity, the casino deal that will build a convention centre off the back of problem gambling; and Rio Tinto. Actually, the taxpayer is getting a pretty poor deal on the deals that are being done. They do not seem to have any advantages for the taxpayer other than getting the Government out of a hole when it has made commitments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis legislation, as I said, largely replicates legislation already in place. We heard from a submitter from Chapman Tripp who thought that one point worth noting was that the capital adequacy criteria tend to be much more stringent in practice than the advertised minimum capital of 8 percent due to the high risk weighting given to some asset classes\u2014as much as 350 percent\u2014and the market risk - operational risk multiplier. This is something of a variance to the original conception around second-tier financial institutions and may result in a shrinkage to the sector greater than is allocatively efficient. In layman\u2019s terms, that is really about perverse incentives to loan heavily into the mortgage market and away from productive areas. This bill may actually have a perverse outcome; when we want those firms to actually be investing in productive assets, they may be forced to take on capital adequacy measures that hamstring them and make them less competitive in the market place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI will be interested in the view of the Minister in the chair, Associate Minister of Finance Coleman, and whether he is willing to defend it. He will have known that this bill was coming up, having looked at the Order Paper overnight, and no doubt will have studied the finer points of the legislation and have a view as to why the Government is choosing to disadvantage credit unions, why it is making life very difficult for them, and why it is trying to push more money towards the speculative housing sector when that is such a problem for New Zealanders. Ordinary, average Kiwis cannot get into their first home. This Government seems determined to make that worse. We have the loan-to-value ratio restrictions that have been put through by the Reserve Bank, which are playing out in a strange kind of way, because although first-home buyers cannot get into the market, it is making it a little bit cheaper for property speculators to get in. We see the inequalities widening, and here we have another measure that distorts the economy further. This is, sadly, indicative of a Government that has its eye off the ball. It is not about rebalancing the economy. The Minister in the chair should stand up and provide some technical advice as to why that incentive will not come to pass. I think it will be embarrassing if he is not willing or able to defend that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Government ought to be focused on rebalancing the economy, not on passing bills that simply shift legislation from one part of the book to another. It should be more concerned about creating jobs and supporting exporters. These are the things Labour wants to do. We know that our export economy needs to be supported. The high exchange rate is crippling our exporters. We hear that time and time again, but the Government is reluctant to put monetary policy in place that would support that. It is reluctant to undertake pro-growth tax reform\u2014the likes of a capital gains tax, which would see money go towards the productive sector and out of the speculative sector. It is reluctant to support research and development in this country\u2014and on it goes. It will not put in universal KiwiSaver, which would also create capital depth and address the problems that this bill is, in a way, setting out to fix. Those bigger solutions have been looked over in favour of tinkering, and that is a great disappointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis legislation needs to strike a balance. It is not quite doing that in the right way, and it is similar to those things we have seen in the past with the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, where the Government took its eye off the ball. We saw in that case a 25 percent increase in South Canterbury Finance\u2019s books, the risk borne by the taxpayer, and then we saw a ten-fold increase in another finance company. This is a Government that really does not have itself across the detail, but it is interested in making sure that taxpayer money is handed over to get the deal and to get things out of the public limelight. We are seeing that with Chorus now. We have seen it with Rio Tinto, where the Government handed over $30 million\u201430 million pieces of silver, my colleague Clayton Cosgrove says\u2014without a jobs guarantee. The very next day, it is talking about laying staff off. This is a Government that is doing deals to get things off the front pages, like the Skycity Casino deal. It is really not focusing on growing the economy, which is what we really need. We need more jobs\u2014jobs for Kiwis, high-value jobs\u2014and that will be created by having the right economic settings, not by protecting the vested interests that this Government seems so determined to protect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe hope that the Government sees the light. We hope that in the future it applies the principles that I have outlined, because on this side of the Chamber we are interested in ordinary Kiwis\u2014those extra people who are unemployed. There is a much higher unemployment rate than when National took office. Unemployment has gone up and up, and median wages are down under this Government, in real terms. That is why New Zealanders are feeling the pinch. The cost of living has gone up, but their wages have not. With the tax cuts that the Government put through in 2010, I note that 40 percent of the value went to the top 10 percent of earners, and the bottom 20 percent got just 10 percent of the value. That is disappointing. That is growing the gap between rich and poor. The gap between rich and poor has never been so high in New Zealand as it is under this Government. Inequalities have grown and this Government seems happy to oversee the demise of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc5365bab6fd46b28278006d11ffbf83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc5365bab6fd46b28278006d11ffbf83\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up where David Parker left off in respect of the smaller end of town, in terms of credit unions. I note that the New Zealand Association of Credit Unions and its members made a number of submissions on the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill. Basically, their thesis said that credit unions should not be lumped in with finance companies under the same non-bank deposit takers definition, given that \u201CA cooperative business model\u201D\u2014I am quoting from them\u2014\u201Cis so inherently different from other financial institutions\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThat does raise a valid point, because if you look at the model of credit unions and friendly societies, they have vastly different objectives based on the various Acts\u2014the Friendly Societies and Credit Unions Act and others\u2014that govern them and that they originate from. They are coupled with their own prudential supervisory requirements via trustees. In the case of credit unions, they are all equal partners, equal shareholders, within that entity, which is vastly different from the case of the financial sector. They have a cooperative model that is based on equal ownership and that is based on the very needs of the individuals in that entity and the communities, interests, and industries in which they operate. They are inherently conservative, if you look at the history of credit unions, in respect of their investments. They are involved in health schemes, skilling schemes, and all sorts of interesting and innovative processes, and they are very entrepreneurial, but they are inherently conservative and they are based on a cooperative model. Their approach to business is not driven by shareholders, if you will, who take risks; their basis for business is based on cooperation and collectivism. And it would be hard to see, and it is still hard to see, why those additional prudential requirements should be visited on them, because, of course, they inherently have a whole series of additional compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I would be interested to know from the Minister in the chair, the Associate Minister of Finance Jonathan Coleman\u2014and if he could answer some questions, that would be helpful to us\u2014why it is that the Government believes that credit unions, for instance, and friendly societies and others that do, indeed, take deposits but operate completely differently, on a far more conservative basis, with a cooperative model and equity in terms of individual members, should be lumped in with this. I do not know whether the Minister in the chair is going to take a call. I note that the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Paul Goldsmith, is here today. It would be very helpful, if the Minister is not in a position to take a call, if Mr Goldsmith took a call and gave the Government\u2019s rationale for this. The cost of regulation, of course, is going to be borne by firms that did not collapse, that actually did do the right thing\u2014credit unions and others\u2014that were fiscally conservative, and that did manage their funds and their members\u2019 funds and investments appropriately. Of course, they are going to be the ones that, along with others in the financial sector, will bear the brunt of these compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe are all, as I said in the last debate, for financial stability. We are all for ensuring that the best prudential requirements are put in place to protect mum and dad investors or any investors. You would have to look\u2014and I challenge the Government to provide some evidence if I am wrong\u2014at the history and performance of credit unions. In many, many respects, in the management of funds that they have, they outstrip many in terms of the conservative nature of their investment portfolios and how they manage funds. That is borne out by many of those they outstrip not being here any more because they collapsed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThose credit unions provide a pretty unique form of model and form of investment for their members. They are involved in a vast array of pretty unique activities for people who are in this sector, in terms of providing opportunities for their members, and they have a completely different model. It is a cooperative model. It is a very old model. They operate completely differently. So it would be helpful if somebody on that side could, for the record, put on the record the rationale for lumping in credit unions with every other non-bank deposit taker, because I think they do make a valid argument that they can differentiate themselves off from most. If the Government still believes that it is appropriate that they be part of this regime, then the Government needs to stand up in all fairness and articulate in a detailed way why it believes that. It may be helpful to do so, I think, in terms of the level of understanding. And it may\u2014I doubt it but it may\u2014allay some of the fears that credit unions and others in that area have in respect of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI would be grateful if somebody from the other side would take a call. Again, there is not a lot of politics, if any, really, in this bill. I was on the Finance and Expenditure Committee for most, if not all, I think, of this piece of legislation going through, and I would acknowledge that there was a genuine effort on both sides to make it work. It is appropriate, but these credit unions and friendly societies do have some genuine concerns. They have put some appropriate propositions on the table in their submissions, arguing that they should be differentiated off, and dealt with, differently or dealt with under the Acts that prescribe their activity anyway. I would be grateful if a member from the other side or Mr Goldsmith could provide the Government\u2019s rationale for that. I am sure that that would be helpful for those submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 394 in the name of the Hon Bill English be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBill as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002235fa1f4123e0437b9e07af2993a8a5e8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u002293d2b1a3f61245bf953aae34bba65060\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293d2b1a3f61245bf953aae34bba65060\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill be now read a third time. I want to begin by thanking the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee and officials who have engaged with the industry, the wider financial sector, and other interested parties. The purposes of the bill are to promote the maintenance of a sound and efficient financial system and to avoid significant damage to the financial system that could result from the failure of a non-bank deposit taker. The bill will not create a zero failure regime, but by completing the implementation of the regulatory regime for non-bank deposit takers, which mainly comprise finance companies, building societies, and credit unions, this bill will achieve those purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill creates a stand-alone framework for the prudential regulation of non-bank deposit takers. It incorporates the prudential requirements already imposed under Part 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989 and introduces new measures, including the licensing of non-bank deposit takers, suitability assessments for directors and senior managers, restrictions on changes of ownership, and new powers for the Reserve Bank to detect and manage instances of distress or failure of non-bank deposit takers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ELicensing is at the heart of the bill, with the establishment of a licensing regime and a requirement for all non-bank deposit takers to be licensed by the Reserve Bank. An important part of this is the suitability requirements for directors and senior officers of non-bank deposit takers, and the opportunity this gives for the Reserve Bank to identify those who are clearly not suitable to hold positions of responsibility within the industry. Licences may also be issued subject to conditions. The bill sets out the types of matters that may be covered by conditions, and the consultation procedure to be followed if the Reserve Bank wishes to add new conditions or amend or revoke existing conditions of licence. There is also an express obligation for non-bank deposit takers to comply with the conditions of their licence, so that a failure to comply with a licence condition becomes a failure to comply with the Act. Breaching such a condition will be grounds for cancelling a licence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EFollowing licensing, the non-bank deposit taker must then comply with the prudential requirements that are already in place under Part 5D. Any substantial changes in ownership over a prescribed threshold must have the consent of the Reserve Bank. The powers of the Reserve Bank to address breaches of prudential requirements have also been strengthened to be more in line with the Reserve Bank\u2019s powers under the banking and insurance regimes. In particular, the bill provides the bank with the power to direct non-bank deposit takers and their associated persons in particular circumstances. Amongst other things, the Reserve Bank can direct that a non-bank deposit taker takes specified action to address any financial or other difficulties it may be subject to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EUnder the bill, the Reserve Bank is also able to remove and appoint directors where the non-bank deposit taker is in financial difficulty or failing to comply with statutory requirements. Under the bill, trustees remain the front-line supervisors of non-bank deposit takers\u2019 compliance with prudential requirements, such as those relating to capital and related party exposures. To help ensure that the Reserve Bank can intervene where necessary, when a non-bank deposit taker is involved in an actual or potential breach of its obligations under the prudential regime, the bill provides the Reserve Bank with the power to direct trustees to take certain specified actions in these situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EDuring the Committee of the whole House stage, additional amendments were included in the bill by Supplementary Order Papers 99 and 394. These amendments were largely technical in nature and, in many cases, were necessitated by the recent enactment, or coming into force, of other legislation, most notably the Financial Markets Conduct Act. Along with the changes recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, these changes have helped to ensure that the bill is well designed and will operate efficiently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ETo sum up, the bill will increase confidence in the New Zealand deposit-taking sector and enhance the Reserve Bank\u2019s ability to promote the maintenance of a sound and efficient financial system. It represents an important milestone by putting in place the final components of the prudential measures applicable to the non-bank deposit taker sector. From its first reading in Parliament in August 2011, this bill has received broad cross-party support and the general support of industry. Again, I want to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee, those who made submissions, and officials for their work on this bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022499998a6e220452faae6719c93c4bf8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022499998a6e220452faae6719c93c4bf8c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on behalf of the Labour Party to support the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill. Can I thank the Associate Minister of Finance, Jonathan Coleman, for his contribution and acknowledge the work done at the Finance and Expenditure Committee and by officials. I add my thanks and respect for the work done by the officials. I believe that this is a good bill. It is important that the non-bank deposit takers be appropriately regulated. It is one of the lessons that we have had following the global financial crisis\u2014that there is a need to properly regulate the financial sector so as to protect members of the public from inappropriate risk. You cannot eliminate all risk but you can properly regulate to stop some risks from being hidden. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe bill defines \u201Cnon-bank deposit taker\u201D as being an entity that \u201Coffers debt securities to the public of New Zealand;\u201D and then on-lends them. That second part of the test is necessary because if, for example, you are another company that offers just debt securities to the public\u2014if you are a company that is not in the business of on-lending and the retail provision of money\u2014then you ought not to be subject to the same regulatory regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the improvements that has been made is providing a good definition of what \u201Crelated party\u201D means. That is important when trustees have day-to-day oversight of debt securities\u2014that is, when someone invests in a debt security, in a deposit, there is generally a trust deed that governs the terms upon which their deposit is to be held. The terms are generally overseen by a trustee, which is often something like Trustees Executors or AMP\u2014one of those trustee security companies oversees it. Their duties include making sure that the trust deed provisions that are intended to govern how the money is held, and what sorts of assets it can be invested in, are conformed with by the entity that is taking the money from the public. Too often, of course, in recent years they were actually taking the money from the public and not giving it back. One of the reasons why that came to pass was that there was inadequate regulation of related party transactions, where those that were in control of some of these non-bank deposit takers were effectively using the money to lend to risky ventures that they or a related party had an interest in and that went belly-up. The directors of the issuer of the debt securities did not have their own names on the guarantees and they managed to lose the money of the depositors and not face personal liability in respect of some of the losses that occurred to depositors. So tightening up regulation around related parties is a desirable thing to do so that there is less ability to do that in the future, and so that it is less easy for people to pursue their private interests to defeat the interests of the people who have lent money through debt securities to non-bank deposit takers. I will not take any further time of the House, other than to endorse the Associate Minister\u2019s comments. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229859c13198a149d388aeff469bc0b25d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229859c13198a149d388aeff469bc0b25d\u0022\u003EPAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak in favour of the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill. It is a very important piece of legislation in terms of restoring mum and dad investor confidence in our capital markets after the global financial crisis. I am glad to see that there is widespread support for this bill across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI do want to draw attention to just one or two changes made by the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014in particular, around the Reserve Bank\u2019s powers to remove and appoint the directors of these non-bank deposit holders. I think this is an important additional power to the Reserve Bank, and it should be used carefully. When the Reserve Bank has made a decision about the suitability of the directors or senior officers, those persons now do have a right to appeal that decision. This was also amended to allow appeals by those who had proposed to be directors or senior officers, but who were prevented from doing so by a Reserve Bank decision on their suitability. I think that is an important rule-of-law aspect to this whole equation\u2014making sure that we have the right people in the right places but also giving them the opportunity to defend themselves. So just drawing on that, I would like to support this bill in its third reading. I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022a931356a53254a519354950a0497d0d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a931356a53254a519354950a0497d0d8\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have got to say that whilst I share the sentiments of Mr Goldsmith\u2019s speech, it was disappointing in one particular way. Members on this side have raised a number of key questions. I do not think the Minister of Finance took a call at all throughout the debate on the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill. One of the concerns that both Mr Parker and I raised were issues around credit unions and compliance costs around credit unions. No Minister decided to take a call at all on the differentiating factors and different strictures around credit unions, the legislative framework, and how they operate in a completely different way\u2014a different model; a cooperative model. These are pretty venerable institutions. I am sure we all have people in our respective patches and constituencies who are members of these institutions who have invested wisely. Also, I should say that these credit unions do a lot for their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat we simply asked for on this side was some rationale and some assurance around why these credit unions and friendly societies would be placed within this legislation. I do not think that is too much to ask of highly paid Ministers with highly professional and knowledgable officials behind them. But it got to the point where the Minister could not even sort of turn round and ask his officials for the answer and give us some assurance, and nor could the now chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Paul Goldsmith\u2014rather than stand up, run through a few cursory items, sit down, and raise the white flag. So it is disappointing, because I know that some of the submissions from the New Zealand Association of Credit Unions, on behalf of its members and others, raised some very valid points and would have appreciated, I think, as we go forward and process this legislation, some sort of assurance or rationale for the record. But no one, including Mr Hayes, who I think is a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee still, Ms Barry, Mr Goldsmith, or others\u2014but, more especially, the ultimate responsibility is with the Minister in the chair\u2014was prepared to even give lip service to that request and just provide some background for the record in the Committee stage or the third reading. I have got to say that that is disappointing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMr Goldsmith is right. There is widespread support across the House for this bill. But if we are at a stage where when we raise valid questions, without politics, to simply try to secure some level of confidence for various entities in the community, and the Ministers simply sit there, at 10 past 11, and just read their papers and do not even bother to seek the information, even if they are not the Minister with portfolio responsibility, then you have got to say that that is a bit rough. It is not too rough on us, because we are not the ones with our backsides on the line; the credit unions and friendly societies are. Their members will be looking at changes that are made. Their members will actually be saying: \u201CWhat does this mean for us? Are we going to have to change? What will these prudential requirements mean for us in terms of our investment structure, in terms of our appointments, in terms of how we manage funds and take deposits?\u201D. As my colleague Clare Curran says, obviously the Government over there does not really care about that end of town, even though that end of town\u2014credit unions and friendly societies\u2014are a bit bigger and they have more substantial funds under management than many other entities in our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I would have thought that in the spirit of bipartisanship, or non-partisanship, that this bill has engendered, Ministers or members of the select committee would get up and simply put on the record the rationale for this. It would have been helpful. Maybe it is going to happen when I sit down and a Government speaker takes the next call. That would be helpful. I make this genuine plea to the next Government speaker: could they provide that advice on the record? Mr Hayes, Ms Barry, or\u2014well, Mr Goldsmith has already spoken. Could somebody who is on the select committee take some advice from the Minister\u2019s officials? I am sure Mr Hayes will, because he is a reasonably responsible joker. Could he actually, in his speech, if he is allowed to, get up and give that rationale as to why these credit unions are going to be lumped into this? It is a pretty simple request. There is no politics in it. We will accept the nature of it and take the information. We are all supporting it\u2014I do not think there is anybody in this House who is not supporting this bill\u2014but it would be a courtesy to those credit unions, which will be the ones\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201bf89cfce604e02b1251681a3422d62\u0022\u003EDr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: To the listeners at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c19bc5e5733743a184b826b1c51aa4a4\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and to the listeners\u2014that have to implement this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think it was the credit unions that rightly said in one of their submissions, or perhaps to the media, that it will be the entities that did not collapse, as I said in the Committee stage, that pay for this, not the bad guys who did collapse. It will be survivors\u2014including the credit unions, which acted appropriately and were fiscally conservative, and guard with a great deal of pride their members\u2019 investments and money\u2014who are going to have to bite the bullet on this. Even if it is appropriate, and it may well be, I think they are owed a duty of care from this Parliament and this Government to ascertain why they are lumped in. They raised some very, very solid points\u2014different model, different membership structure, different investment structure, cooperative model, different priorities, and fiscally conservative with the investments. They are all the things that you would have to say that some in the big end of town are actually lacking, especially those who came a gutser through their own lack of financial foresight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I will conclude by simply making the request again for about the third time that some narrative be put down in a third reading speech from the Government to answer the points raised legitimately and professionally by credit unions. We will support this bill, but I think that as we are doing this\u2014I know some want to get home over the side\u2014it is appropriate that proper information is put on the record of this House so that entities know what is going to happen and what they are up against, and why they are caught by the sort of catch-all bill that this is. So I look forward to the next Finance and Expenditure Committee member taking a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9616084bc94744ac5a50989c1cf530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9616084bc94744ac5a50989c1cf530\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak to the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill and to echo many of the sentiments expressed by Clayton Cosgrove, who I thought made some really good points. The thing that people probably do not realise about this pretty obscurely named bill, the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill, is that essentially it covers three entities: finance companies, credit unions, and building societies. People will be very familiar with the finance companies. The finance companies are, of course, the companies that collapsed and cost taxpayers many hundreds of millions of dollars as they had to be bailed out. I will get back to that, particularly South Canterbury Finance, where the bailout was mismanaged by the current Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EFinance companies are a very different kettle of fish to the credit unions and building societies, but they are all being regulated together under this one piece of law, the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill, or Act as it will become. That is a problem. It is a problem because credit unions and building societies have a very different risk profile to finance companies. In the Reserve Bank\u2019s report that was delivered very recently about the review of the non-bank deposit taking sector there was some discussion of those differences. I think that this is a real missed opportunity to make sure that the regulation of the credit unions and the building societies accurately reflects the risk and performance of those two kinds of institutions, which is fundamentally different to the finance companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIf one casts one\u2019s mind back through the earlier part of this century and the emergence of the finance companies and the huge risks that the finance companies presented, one sees that during all of that period all of our regulatory agencies completely failed. So you would have to say that the Reserve Bank, Treasury, and the trustee structure that was set up to provide oversight fundamentally and completely failed the people of New Zealand in providing adequate prudential supervision of the finance companies. The proof of that is the fact that the finance companies overwhelmingly\u2014almost all of them\u2014went belly up. They went bankrupt. At the end of the day, it was the depositors in those companies and the taxpayer who ended up having to pay the cost of the fact that the finance companies went bankrupt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESo it seems to me that we need to differentiate between those institutions, the finance companies and their regulation, and the credit unions and building societies, which did not go belly up. But it became one of the mantras of the neo-liberal model of the 1980s and 1990s that one has light-handed regulation of things like finance companies. Unfortunately, the Clark-Cullen Government was completely captive to the neo-liberal ideology as it applied to the regulation of the finance sector. It applied the same kind of laissez-faire regulation of the finance sector that has been the ideology from New Zealand since the early 1980s, and that is why we ended up, as taxpayers and depositors, losing so much money, because of the laissez-faire regulation that the Clark-Cullen Government continued through the early part of this century, which meant that the taxpayer ended up having to pay the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis Government, paradoxically a conservative Government, came in at a time after the global financial crisis and has had to institute the regulation of these sectors, but it is very much closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Most of the finance companies have already gone, and so most of the institutions that are now being regulated by this bill, which is a response to the failure of the finance companies, are not finance companies. This is the paradox of the bill that we have before us. This bill is a response to the failure of the finance companies but this bill actually overwhelmingly regulates credit unions and building societies. So that is the paradoxical situation we find. So the incoming conservative Government had a complete overreaction and a poor response to the situation that we are in. We should actually have the regulation of credit unions and building societies done differently to finance companies because credit unions and building societies do not have the same level of risk associated with them. The proof of that is the fact that during the global financial crisis the finance companies went belly up but the credit unions and building societies did not. So instead of saying that we will have a differentiated regime, we have just lumped them all in together into non-bank deposit takers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere is no question that we need to improve the regulation of the finance companies in particular, so that is why we are voting for this piece of legislation. It is the right thing to do, even if it is after the horse has bolted. Hopefully, it will prevent a similar thing happening again. What it means is that there is a sea change in a kind of philosophy of regulation in New Zealand, and a recognition that the failure\u2014the complete and absolute failure\u2014of the neo-liberal model of laissez-faire regulation has been recognised. I doubt very much that that is completely recognised by Treasury and the Reserve Bank, particularly Treasury, but certainly to some degree it has been and that is a good thing. But lumping the credit unions and building societies in under exactly the same kind of regulatory regime, I think, is a bit of a mistake, and we need to differentiate. So, in the implementation of this law, given that it is going to go ahead, it is very important that the Reserve Bank differentiates between the credit unions and the building societies on one side and the finance companies, such as they remain, on the other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EUnfortunately there is not a great recognition that that will happen. We had the Reserve Bank in front of the Finance and Expenditure Committee a few days ago, when I raised these issues and there was some acknowledgment of the issues but I do not think a great acknowledgment. There was also the issue of trustees, which I think we really have to address. For people who do not know, these non-bank deposit takers\u2014finance companies, credit unions, and building societies\u2014have trustees who are meant to provide supervision. What we know about the trustee model is that it is a complete failure\u2014a total and absolute failure. The proof of the failure of the trustee model is that depositors lost millions and millions and millions of dollars and taxpayers lost millions of dollars because they had to bail the thing out. So given that the trustee model has proven to be a complete failure, why are we continuing with it as if it works when we know that it does not? It has been proven that it does not work. The trustee model does not work in terms of providing prudential supervision of these companies. The proof of that is what actually happened. But we carry on and pretend the trustee model works. It does not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhy do we not actually introduce regulatory regimes that have a better chance of working? For example, in the review of non-bank deposit takers, there was talk about treating credit unions and building societies more like banks and regulating them directly more like banks because a lot of their behaviour is bank-like. Why would we not regulate them more directly, more like banks, and in the process get rid of the trustees, who are useless because they do not protect these companies from acting poorly, as we saw with the finance companies? By getting rid of the trustees at the same time, we also reduce the red tape and the regulatory burden on the credit unions\u2014a regulatory burden that the banks, their competitors, do not face. So if you are a credit union, you have got to have this elaborate structure above you of trustees and so forth. It all has to be supported. If you are a bank, you do not. Yet we lumber the credit unions with this elaborate regulatory burden that they totally do not need. Why do we not regulate them much like we regulate banks? Let the credit unions compete with the banks on a fair, even playing field. Reduce the regulatory burden on the credit unions so that they can compete for deposits with the banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI think that in the implementation of this regime it would be great to see the Reserve Bank recognise the reality of the difference between the finance companies and the credit unions and building societies. That is one of the fundamental problems of this legislation. We are supporting it because I think we need it, but I think it is important, as we go forward, that in the implementation of the law we recognise the difference. I think that in the future we are going to have to change the legislative framework around credit unions in particular, to recognise the actual risks associated with credit unions. I also think we need to acknowledge that the trustee model completely failed. It did not work as a way of actually preventing widespread failure of the finance companies. It was a failed model. None the less, we will be supporting the legislation but we look forward to future improvements of the regulatory framework in this sector. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022 data-id=\u0022db4defaf90db44399758e3126cf7a40c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db4defaf90db44399758e3126cf7a40c\u0022\u003EANDREW WILLIAMS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take a brief call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill. For those out there listening to this or watching this, I will give just a reminder as to what the bill actually does. The bill seeks to implement the final components of a new regulatory regime for non-bank deposit takers. These are deposit takers in the finance industry that are not banks. This incorporates the prudential requirements already imposed under Part 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989, and introduces new measures covering the licensing of non-bank deposit takers, suitability, assessments for directors and senior officers, restrictions on changes of ownership, and new powers for the Reserve Bank to detect and manage instances of distress or failure of those non-bank deposit takers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EEssentially, what this bill does is tighten up the areas outside of the main banking stream and brings in a lot more controls via the Reserve Bank, so that we will not have a repeat of some of the, perhaps, cowboy activities that have occurred in the past in some of our financial institutions\u2014or what you could call fringe financial institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn looking at Part 2 of the bill, clause 13, \u201CDetermining applications for licence\u201D, states: \u201CThe Bank must not grant a licence to an applicant unless\u2014(a) the Bank is satisfied that the applicant, if licensed, would be able to comply, on an ongoing basis, with this Act, the regulations, and the proposed conditions \u2026 (b) the Bank has received a suitability notice for each director and senior officer, or proposed director and senior officer, of the \u2026 Bank \u2026\u201D. That is most important because what it basically says is that, at last, full applications to the Reserve Bank will be required for these various entities. They will also have to justify who the directors are and who is controlling these entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIn terms of the appointment of the directors, if a licensed non-bank deposit taker is a company, building society, or overseas company, \u201C(a) the governing body of the [non-bank deposit taker] must include at least 2 independent directors; and (b) the chairperson of the governing body of the [non-bank deposit taker] must not be an employee of either the licensed [non-bank deposit taker] or a related party.\u201D An independent director cannot be an employee of either the non-bank deposit taker or a related party. An independent director cannot have more than 10 percent of the voting securities of the non-bank deposit taker or related parties, and are therefore, in a sense, truly independent and able to provide independent advice to that entity. In the past, these lines have been a bit blurred, perhaps, where employees have acted in this role. Senior management has acted in this role in some cases. Often, as we have seen in the case of South Canterbury Finance and other such institutions, there have been instances where governance and management and other things have overlapped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EIt is also interesting in terms of credit ratings that a licensed non-bank deposit taker must have a current rating of its creditworthiness or, as required by the regulations in clause 23, the creditworthiness of its borrowing group. Again, that will be of great comfort to investors\u2014the mums and dads of New Zealand who are, perhaps, putting money into such financial institutions. The non-bank deposit takers must have a current financial rating and creditworthiness to substantiate what they are doing in terms of taking the deposits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a536d3c2-6293-4216-b0bd-dfec1bd6f40c\u0022\u003EThis is a further bill today following on from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill, which we had just before, and following on from other financial ones last evening. It is a tranche of various bills aimed at tightening up the financial markets in New Zealand. This is another one that New Zealand First supports, because we believe that there were some glaring anomalies in our financial legislation that were allowing less than satisfactory business transactions to take place and, indeed, putting New Zealanders at risk in the case of their investments. This is another way of tightening that up and giving more surety to the financial markets, making New Zealand a much safer place in which to invest money, and making it a far tidier situation for the New Zealand economy. New Zealand First will support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a60cd962b3ab4fb28b817f3d687c3a2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a60cd962b3ab4fb28b817f3d687c3a2d\u0022\u003EDr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E The point I have made consistently through this debate on the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill is that it is a wasteful use of Parliament\u2019s time to be shifting legislation from one place to the other. It does not make the changes perfectly that it ought to make. We have heard about the difficulties for the credit unions that are put into this bill. We know that today we have debated covered bonds in the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Covered Bonds) Amendment Bill, 2 years after they were implemented overseas. We know that the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme may have cost the taxpayer up to $500 million because of the Government\u2019s mismanagement. The Government is not focused on the big issues, and it seems to be slow in getting this kind of legislation in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWe will support the bill because, broadly, it is OK. It could be better. We wish the Government would get on with supporting our export sector, with worrying about the exchange rate, with introducing pro-growth tax reform, with bringing through increased savings with universal KiwiSaver, and with looking out for ordinary Kiwis\u2019 interests with the type of policy that we are putting forward with NZ Power, and the kinds of policies like KiwiBuild, which we are putting in to make sure that ordinary Kiwis can hope to own their own homes. We want a Government that is taking the interests of New Zealanders forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis Government is sitting on its laurels. I am increasingly told by people whose doors I knock on in the weekends that this is a Government out of touch. New Zealand is going backwards under National. It does not seem to have a plan for the economy. It is disappointing that we are here debating fixes to problems that would be solved through a stronger economy. We would have more jobs if this Government was focused on the real issues, if it was focused on the big changes that are needed in our economy and not just tinkering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca8649fdb46047a9858091359043841a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca8649fdb46047a9858091359043841a\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call on the Non-bank Deposit Takers Bill. I spoke on the first reading of this bill back in 2011. I did not sit on the select committee that heard the submissions, the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but I did speak in the first reading and it has taken a long time for it to get to this point. When you look back to the genesis of this bill, it actually comes out of work done by the previous Labour Government in 2005 and 2006. How many years ago was that? It was 7 years ago. It took 7 years to get this bill to this stage in the House. It came out of the Review of Financial Products and Providers. This was the second bill as part of that work, which was required to implement the registered non-bank deposit taker regime and included licensing, and fit and proper requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWe support this bill, obviously. I think you have heard from this side of the House that there has been quite a bit of concern around some of the measures, particularly around credit unions, which have not been addressed and answered by the Minister of Finance or by any of the National Party members who sat on that committee, which makes you wonder whether they were actually paying attention, whether this piece of legislation was just slipping through, and whether the Minister in charge of this bill, who I think was actually Bill English, was asleep at the wheel and not really paying attention to the concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EOn the issue around credit unions, which has been raised by my colleagues Clayton Cosgrove and David Clark, I just want to go back to officials\u2019 advice around their concerns. The credit unions believe that this regime should apply only to finance companies, and that cooperatives should be carved out, because they are different. The advice that was given\u2014and it was very brief advice, which really did not go into any detail and should have provided a lot more of an explanation\u2014was that it would provide a legal loophole in the regime whereby simply adopting a particular form would mean falling outside the regulatory regime. I contend that that was not sufficient, and that has not been properly explained by the Minister during the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI would also like to draw the attention of the House to a bill we discussed last night, the Financial Reporting Bill, where there had been a lot more intelligent discussion around some of the measures in that. That bill singled out members of friendly societies, it singled out not-for-profit entities, and it looked at how the regime around financial reporting would or would not apply to each of those entities. In the bill that we are discussing today, that has not happened. I think that is a big mistake. However, we do support this bill. It comes out of work that was done by the previous Labour Government and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0c52652ce2142d0a06d447c69de127f\u0022\u003EStatutes Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ed8865adade45e29b00c2478182b453\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5d2006df0064b56b7800c9293b7c227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5d2006df0064b56b7800c9293b7c227\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to take the Statutes Amendment Bill as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d501831942384b6d8e5b3f31bea0b562\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: That is Parts 1 to 30, schedules 1 to 4, and clauses 1 and 2. Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202bbde5ba38149f9a9d76ad0d986e8a0\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 30, schedules 1 to 4, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002270a1ed9a7dd14cf3a8c46e7584eea841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270a1ed9a7dd14cf3a8c46e7584eea841\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E This is just another example of the Opposition helping the Government to do its work. The idea that the Statutes Amendment Bill, which is a bill that by definition passes unanimously, is all of a sudden urgent after hanging around the system for well over 12 months is just a farce. It is a sign of the very, very poor organisation on the part of the Government that we are dealing with it. You are looking a bit anxious, Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022779a12677556479180f400aea4b2b090\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, not all\u2014not at all. I was interested in your comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245a3caec0eec4bd6ad4aaf3f46b239d1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that makes a pleasant change for any member, for you to be interested in the comments that I am making. I want to thank you. I have got a dram upstairs if you are available later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis bill is traditionally one that picks up a wide range of very minor amendments. They are circulated around all members of Parliament to make sure that there is unanimity on their passing. Hearings are held and have been held. The Government Administration Committee did some very good work under the very able chairpersonship of Ruth Dyson. We made some minor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb389b768744b158bf792a2799e0afa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a point of order, I take it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221078c3cf264f4771b88164991874aad9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fa68bade28443a93535305c197bd10\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it is a call. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e7f486f28fa48e5b778af43bfcd4d8b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is a call. It is still going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225edd6398883441e98d011b8546095945\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022238ef0cf44994a68ae373c25ad501557\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I noticed you were listening intently and trying to work it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206dedfd0ee4540b5aceb6b2ada965503\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, because the member stood on a point of order, and that is why I acknowledged him on a point of order. I am happy that you are taking a call. You have got 3 minutes, 29 seconds remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0005513b08c48f1bf5e9c3214e831a5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c06d16098247fc9484d2e5d785f32c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: When are you going to get to the point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e76627823d594f49bc69411ef31594c4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: It was a long point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221be1096b1f584f6a938ec344e994997f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: With not much point to it, and not a hell of a lot of order from the Chair. I am slightly lost for words, and wonder whether I should start again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe point that I am making is that the bill is one that is supported unanimously. The idea of doing it under urgency is very dangerous from a Government point of view. If the Opposition was not cooperative, then we would not have had it as one question. We could have debated up to four calls each on every one of these parts. It could have taken the House the entire period of urgency to deal with this. But as we have gone relatively soft under the new shadow Leader of the House and the new whips, we will be cooperative, and we will focus our debate on the Unit Titles Act amendments, which, of course, should not have been part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00221251c82827584fa3a32970f937e2ced3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221251c82827584fa3a32970f937e2ced3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member the Hon Ruth Dyson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00224d196aacd71b419e874f7c4e70d67ea1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d196aacd71b419e874f7c4e70d67ea1\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. That is really helpful because that is my name, so it is a very useful thing for you to do. Can I first of all express a little bit of surprise that the Minister who is in charge of this Statutes Amendment Bill, the Hon Chester Borrows, is not taking a call. When bills go through under urgency, unless they are urgent, it is my view that the Minister should address not only the substance of the legislation but also the reason that the bill is being put through the House under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe Government Administration Committee, which I have the privilege to chair, spent a lot of time and effort rigorously considering the Statutes Amendment Bill, which had already gone through a very good process of deliberation amongst parties. That is usual and appropriate for a Statutes Amendment Bill. It should be non-contentious. I think that this bill, with the work that we put into it, has been returned to the House in a better condition than that in which it was given to us. However, we are now required to pass it under urgency, and I think the public of New Zealand just needs an explanation for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ELabour totally supports the substance of the bill itself. Our select committee made some alterations to it, and they are outlined in our select committee report, so I have got no need to go over them. I just think that it really is the mandate and the responsibility of the Minister to explain why, after such good process up to this point, we are considering it under urgency. I assume that it is incompetent management of the House by the Hon Gerry Brownlee, but if there is some different explanation, then I look forward to the Minister confirming that either by him not contradicting me or by giving a different explanation for the mismanagement, and this bill therefore coming through under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220599bf712980426abd679cbbf3a5a5a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220599bf712980426abd679cbbf3a5a5a2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I do want to thank the Hon Chester Borrows for confirming to the Committee by way of his silence the fact that there is no good reason for this Statutes Amendment Bill to be passed under urgency; or that the only reason that it is being done under urgency is the mismanagement by the National Party whips and by Gerry Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere are a number of members around in the Chamber. I am slightly surprised that Jonathan Young has not taken a call. He is the chair of the Commerce Committee, and there are massive, repeated amendments based on changes in the Companies Act that run their way through this bill. I am sure he is across the top of it and that he could have made some contributions there. There are areas of change to the Defamation Act, which I know is of particular interest both to myself and Judith Collins. I know that I read this very carefully in order to make sure of the effect of it; I am not absolutely certain that she did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe question that I am asking the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, is whether there is anything in this bill that requires passing before Parliament finishes at the end of this year; if so, why? Because at the Government Administration Committee, other than some relatively\u2014I am not going to say important; no, relatively important compared with the other things in the bill\u2014important changes to the Unit Titles Act, we did not get the impression that there was anything that was urgent here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe question that flows from that is that given the House has over recent years developed a very good practice of having extended sittings on a Wednesday and a Thursday morning, can the Minister tell us why this bill did not go through in 5 or 10 minutes during one of those extended sittings rather than coming along in a period of urgency? It is almost like the way our Parliament works. It is an invitation to have a bill that is non-contentious debated more than is appropriate, and I would be very happy if the Minister could make a contribution and indicate the reasons if any. We will assume that there is no good reason and that it is his incompetence, and that of Gerry Brownlee, if, in fact, he chooses not to talk a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe099377dd148ee989c316368a9a0c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe099377dd148ee989c316368a9a0c9\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Statutes Amendment Bill to be taken as one question for the vote, with the exception of Part 25, which will be taken separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022571a3b34e3c649beb7db8e767269baba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022571a3b34e3c649beb7db8e767269baba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none. This is how we will have to do it, honourable members. There will be three motions put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 354 in the name of the Hon Chris Tremain, the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 362 in the name of the Hon Chester Borrows, the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 in the name of the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, and the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 329 in the name of the Hon Chester Borrows be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EPart 25 not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 30 excluding 25, schedules 1 to 4, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Accident Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2), the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill (No 2), the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, the Armed Forces Discipline Amendment Bill, the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Amendment Bill (No 2), the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 3), the Companies Amendment Bill (No 3), the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill, the Disputes Tribunals Amendment Bill, the District Courts Amendment Bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2), the Extradition Amendment Bill, the Flags, Emblems, and Names Protection Amendment Bill, the Gambling Amendment Bill, the Health Amendment Bill, the Health and Disability Commissioner Amendment Bill, the Insolvency Amendment Bill, the Legislation Amendment Bill, the Local Electoral Amendment Bill (No 3), the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill (No 4), the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Amendment Bill, the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill, the Passports Amendment Bill, the Private Security Personnel and Private Investigators Amendment Bill, the Real Estate Agents Amendment Bill (No 2), the Road User Charges Amendment Bill (No 2), the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Amendment Bill, the Social Welfare (Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 2), the Statistics Amendment Bill (No 2), the Tariff Amendment Bill, the Telecommunications Amendment Bill, the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Amendment Bill, the Wills Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Wine Amendment Bill (No 2), pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 352.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Statutes Amendment Bill with amendment and that the Committee had divided it into 35 bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268fcb510b843409bb8f37fe62aa4d45e\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249a80292409648a9a886430857299118\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00225affe2441d4842978c35ff871efabd9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225affe2441d4842978c35ff871efabd9d\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Accident Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2), the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill (No 2), the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, the Armed Forces Discipline Amendment Bill, the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Amendment Bill (No 2), the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 3), the Companies Amendment Bill (No 3), the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill, the Disputes Tribunals Amendment Bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill (No 2), the District Courts Amendment Bill, the Extradition Amendment Bill, the Flags, Emblems, and Names Protection Amendment Bill, the Gambling Amendment Bill, the Health Amendment Bill, the Health and Disability Commissioner Amendment Bill, the Insolvency Amendment Bill, the Legislation Amendment Bill, the Local Electoral Amendment Bill (No 3), the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill (No 4), the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Amendment Bill, the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill, the Passports Amendment Bill, the Private Security Personnel and Private Investigators Amendment Bill, the Real Estate Agents Amendment Bill (No 2), the Road User Charges Amendment Bill (No 2), the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Amendment Bill, the Social Welfare (Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 2), the Statistics Amendment Bill (No 2), the Tariff Amendment Bill, the Telecommunications Amendment Bill, the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Amendment Bill, the Wills Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Wine Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EAs the House is well aware, Statutes Amendment bills have been a feature of the New Zealand Parliament system for a very long time. The oldest Statutes Amendment Act dates back to \u201936\u20141936 that is. The bills divided from the Statutes Amendment Bill today propose a number of valuable changes to the statute book that would not ordinarily receive the House\u2019s time. Although minor, technical, and non-controversial by nature, Statutes Amendment bills are an important component of the Government\u2019s annual legislation programme, and have been in successive Governments, and allow us to keep the law up to date, accurate, and user-friendly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe legislation contains 169 clauses and amends 33 different Acts. There has been the introduction of a couple of Supplementary Order Papers during the Committee stage, and it is important to note what they are. A question was asked in the previous Committee stage about the reason for urgency. The obvious reason, which has been made known to the Opposition for some time, is changes to the sale and supply of alcohol, particularly in respect of minibars in hotels being not bound by on-licence trading. For caterers there is a similar thing so that caterers at certain weddings, which some of us may attend over the Christmas break, will not be forced to stop serving alcohol at certain times, constrained by the legislation. There are also wine cellars\u2014that is \u201Ccellars\u201D with a \u201Cc\u201D. And knowing how important our wine industry is to our country, I am sure Opposition members are only too pleased to support it, or so they indicated earlier on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2fcc97ccd54ff8b4bb1faa41b91343\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: So urgency for wine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240d26d7b854d46da9f7a869a14f27f6a\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: Knowing the discussions I have had with the Hon Ruth Dyson around other matters contained in the alcohol legislation, I know that she is very supportive of this. Politics is not without its theatre and its game-staging. It is good to see Mr Mallard back after his little sojourn, and it is interesting to see that he is ably ruffling the feathers and dividing the fissures within the Labour Party opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThis bill proposes a number of valuable changes to the statute book that are minor, technical, and non-controversial, as much as I have tried to make this speech a little bit controversial. I commend the legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224eafd83e940e4e33b3116695d59362d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eafd83e940e4e33b3116695d59362d5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I recognise the Hon Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220c65e2aea89f49f7a7d67ac8ef0e1856\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c65e2aea89f49f7a7d67ac8ef0e1856\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Mr Assistant Speaker, I have been away for some time, but I am not sure that that should stop you recognising me. I do want to react to the member opposite, the Hon Chester Borrows. I think that an attack on Gerry Brownlee is hardly showing divisions opposite. We know that they do not like Gerry Brownlee, but when we agree with them, they should not say that that indicates a lack of unity on the part of the Labour Party. That is pretty obvious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut there has been one thing that has been made absolutely obvious by the contribution of the Minister in charge of this legislation, the Associate Minister of Justice, and that is that Tim Groser is staying in the country for the Christmas holidays. Tim Groser is staying in the country for the Christmas holidays because we have the minibar amendment, which makes it legal to take alcohol out of the minibars between 4 and 8 in the morning. If anyone has a particular interest in that area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022654692c07eae45479385ea7fcf5a748a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is going very well, but I think that sort of comment is likely to lead to disruption. That is a slur on a member\u2019s character and I take offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09acb55b3c643e9a3314f9e285da2aa\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Can I speak to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de033ef98bfd45458c3615389cdc2856\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You most certainly may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7529264a2414a0aac52dd1b0d9a54a0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is a matter of fact\u2014Mr Groser\u2019s minibar habit. It is a matter that is recorded and reported to the New Zealand public every 3 months. It is outrageous and referring to it should not be stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e5d39f1dfb144b89132f4e03b0d0973\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say that it is usually up to an individual member to take objection. In this case, it would be Mr Groser. I call the Hon Trevor Mallard, but ask him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f94d1e8f1b8b404bb9c902bd24ea0c88\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As I say, it is going well. That sort of personal attack on a member who cannot be here to defend himself is, I think, unwarranted and will lead to disruption. If Mr Mallard wishes to go and impugn Mr Groser\u2019s character outside the House, I would wish him to do that. But the last time he did that, he came off pretty poorly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a3a10e37ce45eaab546775bd7259d6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Coleman. It is not actually leading to disorder at the present stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9750a2f637146309a52bc1097ce032e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In some ways I want to agree with the point that my colleague opposite just made. I think for you to rule that an absent member should take a point of order is something that is slightly bizarre. I disagree on the facts as to whether what I said was out of order or not and I think you ruled appropriately there. But your subsequent ruling that it was up to someone who was not here to take a point of order is, I think, somewhat unusual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a620d55312c6425484ad42cbddd1634e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say to members that all members are honourable, and that is it. We refer to each other as honourable despite what we may think is otherwise, and we call a member what we would want them and all of us to become. I caution the House. We tend to see the world as we are, not as it is. I just ask members to be conscious of that, because courtesy is contagious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad27de65b7ec489281986023c703b02b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to go right back to where I started, in reaction to members opposite and the indication from the Minister in charge of the bill that the urgent part of this was a Supplementary Order Paper to do with the Sale of Liquor Act, the main import of which is that people do not have to go to people\u2019s hotel rooms at 4 in the morning to lock the minibars in order to stop people serving them. The point that I did make is that there is on the record, published by John Key as Minister responsible for Ministerial Services, one person who uses minibars, I think, about as much as every other Minister combined. That is Tim Groser.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a167f05ef6364b05a773113e5725a338\u0022\u003EHon Chester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: And a member of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e72db43a1d4b45b552b583c9a3bacd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is exactly right. He has more than all Ministers and members of the Opposition combined. I agree with Chester Borrows on that. That is almost certainly the case. We are passing a clause that tends to indicate by its urgency that it is a matter of the Christmas holidays for the Minister concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EOther than that, there does not appear to be any urgency around the legislation. In actual fact, that matter, I am pretty sure, could have been dealt with in a stand-alone bill that could go through all of its stages relatively quickly anyway. It did not really need to be part of a Statutes Amendment Bill. I think that when there is unanimity around a matter like that, it might have, in fact, been more transparent to do it by that method. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere have been a few areas that have come into this bill. There have been a couple of areas that have been knocked out of the bill. There has been an area that has been transferred to the Unit Titles Amendment Bill. But, overall, this is a relatively simple bill and one that deserves support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00225ac37f9f9d99442080ca90610bc13c0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ac37f9f9d99442080ca90610bc13c0d\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to make three points in my contribution to the third reading of the 35 bills arising from the Statutes Amendment Bill. The first is that Labour supports this legislation, and I want to just acknowledge the process that the Associate Minister of Justice, Chester Borrows, undertook when getting agreement and understanding from all parties, which is proper and appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI also want to say that the Government Administration Committee took these issues\u2014it is a large number of Acts that are amended, 33 Acts\u2014very seriously, including requiring one clause of the original Statutes Amendment Bill to be removed. We did not consider it was appropriate as part of a Statutes Amendment Bill. So we did not just rubber-stamp it; we looked at it really carefully, and I think that is a good thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe first point is that Labour supports the legislation and we are pleased, in the main, with the process that it went through. I do not agree with the Associate Minister of Justice\u2019s contribution and what I thought was a half-hearted attempt to defend the incompetence of Minister Gerry Brownlee, the Leader of the House. I suppose he had to, really. He would not have had much choice, given the future career prospects if you just blatantly stay silent while the incompetence of the Leader of the House is exposed to everyone. But saying that this legislation needs to be put through under urgency because of the sale of liquor amendments is just nonsense. We have had them for weeks and weeks and weeks. They are not last-minute amendments. They have been well canvassed. We have had many, many sitting days under ordinary time of Parliament when this could have been progressed. As my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard pointed out, on Thursday mornings we have set times where we have extended sitting hours for bills that are agreed by Parliament, and that time would have been an opportunity to progress this legislation. So it was a feeble effort from Associate Minister Chester Borrows. I understand why he tried to do it, but it did not cut the mustard in terms of justifying the incompetence of Minister Gerry Brownlee and his House management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make is that there is a real risk when putting through bills under urgency that something will be wrong and it will be required to be corrected in the future. With the Statutes Amendment Bill, that is pretty ironic, given that this is fixing errors of the past. It does not matter who made them\u2014they were made for a variety of reasons\u2014but we should not risk making another mistake. In regard to Part 25 of the Statutes Amendment Bill, to see it approved by the select committee but then to have the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 329 delete that part, and then for the Government to vote against its own Supplementary Order Paper is very confusing. So I think that once again we see the risks of putting stuff through under urgency without proper consideration. It is a risk that I do not think we should take, and it is certainly, with something that is totally agreed by Parliament, a risk we do not need to take. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed31048511dd4722a24c7a7827d06761\u0022\u003EUnit Titles Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e736ba084de4f4998c0d5e33d9bacd7\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc9847050bac4ac4a4a1d5f58656631f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc9847050bac4ac4a4a1d5f58656631f\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Unit Titles Amendment Bill to be taken as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251060be807c644bbbf018a4e09671a3e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought that there be one debate. Is anyone opposed to that course of action? There appears to be none. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022341884b748c04bf4afcf6b83f0767703\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2, and 142 to 163\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002210ad3d380f4e4999b53f46558e5c0c0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210ad3d380f4e4999b53f46558e5c0c0c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E This is a bill that was split off from the Statutes Amendment Bill. It was taken out by the Government Administration Committee on the basis that there was more in it than was appropriate for a Statutes Amendment Bill. Traditionally, statutes amendment legislation amends one, two, or three clauses of the substantive Acts. In this particular case there are 21 clauses of the substantive Act amended. None of them are that controversial, other than the fact that they drew attention to the very slow progress on a substantive reform of the unit titles legislation, which the Government has been promising for the last 5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere are very minor changes around utility interests, around alterations of plans, and around the timing of the annual general meetings. There are some very minor changes to the duties of the body corporate, especially around maintenance. There are some requirements about what has to be disclosed to buyers. Any of these, individually or as a group of two or three, would have been fine for a Statutes Amendment Bill, but they were, in the view of the committee, too substantive. Because we are not opposed to them, we are quite happy for them to go through on this relatively fast-track arrangement, based on the assurance that we received in the committee. It is going to be interesting, because we were going to get a substantive amendment bill in the House on the unit titles question later this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002200dfa0fe318541a29a4e149584567efa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200dfa0fe318541a29a4e149584567efa\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I hope I did not push in front of the Minister in the chair, the Associate Minister of Justice. He is welcome to take the call. It is usual for the Minister in the chair to take a call first up in debates in this situation, but he does not seem to want to. So I am happy to wait, and it will be worth waiting for, I am sure. As my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard has just explained, the Unit Titles Amendment Bill is the part that was taken out of the Statutes Amendment Bill when it was first referred to the Government Administration Committee some time ago, not because there was anything in it that did not have unanimous support in terms of policy across all members of Parliament but because the number of amendments that it sought to make to the Unit Titles Act was not appropriate for a Statutes Amendment bill. So on that basis we not only took it out of the Statutes Amendment Bill but gave our commitment to ensuring that it was progressed in a speedy fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThat was in May of this year\u2014quite early in May, at the start of the second week in May\u2014and it is now nearly the end of November. I want to know what the Government has been doing between May and November that caused it to not progress a bill that has the support of every single member of Parliament and that was taken out of the Statutes Amendment Bill, and why it now rams this through all its stages under urgency. There is clearly no consideration of what urgency does and of what should be in an urgency motion, let alone an explanation of how the incompetence of the Leader of the House, in terms of House management, could possibly justify our putting a bill like this through under urgency. So I want the Minister to explain why this bill is being put through under urgency when our committee, representing three parties\u2014and I am sure that we had the understanding from other parties, as well\u2014had agreed that it was fit in content for a Statutes Amendment bill? Why would the Government not see fit to progress this bill in our normal extended sitting time on a Thursday morning, rather than under urgency? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe other point that I want to make is that our understanding was that for the last 5 years the Government has been working on a substantial housing package, including a reform of the Unit Titles Act. I would like to know how much longer New Zealanders have to wait to get something of substance out of this Government in a pretty critical area, the housing area. I know that we in Canterbury are used to waiting. The very Minister who is responsible for the incompetent management of the House, Gerry Brownlee, promised my constituents that the zoning decisions would be announced before Christmas 2012, and guess what? Eleven months later we are still waiting for those decisions. People\u2019s lives have been put on hold. They have no ability to do repairs or a rebuild of their house while the zoning decisions are still not determined. So in terms of this Unit Titles Amendment Bill being put aside since May and now being put through under urgency, I am not at all surprised. So, with frustration over the incompetent management of the timetable of the House, we support the substance of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022e166ca1cfc3840a693403e3f0dcf59e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e166ca1cfc3840a693403e3f0dcf59e7\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to have all questions heard as one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9e86e2162a046089dc26131637eb1a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9e86e2162a046089dc26131637eb1a0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for all questions to be put. Is anyone opposed to that course of action? Leave is granted. That does simplify matters. [Interruption] Oh, we have just done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment to clause 150 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 358 in the name of the Hon Chester Borrows be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2, and 142 to 163 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228041b4fca895436a949f5b343d7095d2\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022b45036e4155d4919baffd36d0b6f5fc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b45036e4155d4919baffd36d0b6f5fc2\u0022\u003EHon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Unit Titles Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill formerly constituted Part 27 of the Statutes Amendment Bill, which the House has just considered. Although the Government Administration Committee considered that the amendments to the Unit Titles Act 2010 were minor and technical, there were so many of them that it was appropriate for them to be contained in a separate bill. Therefore, the committee resolved to divide the Statutes Amendment Bill so that Part 27 became a separate bill known as the Unit Titles Amendment Bill, which the House is now considering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe Unit Titles Act 2010 has been in force since June 2011. Its purpose is to allow bodies corporate, which comprise all unit owners in a development, to operate and manage unit title developments. The Act provides guidance to bodies corporate and unit owners to assist them in managing their property. In 2011 Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment officials and industry stakeholders identified several minor and technical issues with the Act, such as incorrect cross-references for terminology, and the Unit Titles Amendment Bill corrects these minor drafting errors. Although the proposed amendments are minor, they are important, because they affect the day-to-day administration of property affairs by bodies corporate and unit owners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe following amendments are examples of how the bill will clarify the original intent of Parliament when the Act was drafted. The bill simplifies disclosure when buying a unit by allowing buyers to choose from a list of relevant information from the seller, rather than receiving all material, as is currently the case. This will help both parties to the transaction. It clarifies that a body corporate can seek to recover unpaid levies through the Tenancy Tribunal, enabling bodies corporate to recover unpaid levies quicker, and it clarifies the types of general orders that the Tenancy Tribunal may make to resolve unit title disputes. This will assist with the resolution of more disputes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI wish to thank all stakeholders for their input into the amendments in this bill, and I also acknowledge the support of my colleague the Hon Dr Nick Smith, the Minister of Housing, on the bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002231248f2354664ec9b624d0b694e56202\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231248f2354664ec9b624d0b694e56202\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I think that some people will probably be puzzled when listening to Parliament debating this morning. It is probably not an unusual situation, actually, that people would be puzzled listening to our debate, but it is not common that we have a bill going through all stages under urgency when there is the complete agreement of every single member of Parliament on it. So, just to explain that a little more to people, this bill that we are debating, the Unit Titles Amendment Bill, originally came into Parliament as part of the Statutes Amendment Bill, which is a vehicle for making technical changes to bills that do not change the policy, but where there has clearly been an error in the original drafting or a lack of clarity about the intent, and every member of Parliament has to agree to the provisions of a Statutes Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWhen our select committee, the Government Administration Committee, was given this bill to consider, we looked at the provisions in Part 27, which covered the Unit Titles Act amendments, and said that there were too many. None of them on their own constituted a breach of the statutes amendment regime in that none of them changed policy\u2014they were just clarifications of the original intent\u2014but there were so many of them that we considered that they should come out of the Statutes Amendment Bill and be considered as a stand-alone bill. We agreed that we would support its speedy progress because we understood the desire for better clarity in the unit titles legislation, so we said that we would support it going through the House in, you know, a reasonable fashion. We did that in May of this year. Nothing was further from our imaginations than thinking that our commitment to having this bill progressed would then mean that it would be put through all its stages under urgency It is just incompetent House time management that this is where this bill has ended up. I just want to put on the record the fact that it is very expensive for taxpayers to have Parliament sitting under urgency. In my view, the term \u201Curgency\u201D should have some relationship with the urgent need of the matter that is before Parliament, and this clearly has no such need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make is that we have now been waiting\u2014New Zealanders have now been waiting\u2014for 5 years for the Government to take some substantive action in terms of the housing issues that we face. In Canterbury, as a result of the considerable population movement because of the earthquakes and the damage and the influx of a large number of people from outside Canterbury\u2014indeed, from outside New Zealand\u2014to help with the rebuild, we have a housing crisis. People are literally not able to afford rental property in their own communities, and that has caused a lot of anxiety. But the Government has not done a single thing towards addressing what I am sure the whole of Parliament would love to hear about: what the Government will do to address the serious and genuine housing needs that we have in our country. So we have silence from the Government on the substantive needs of New Zealanders, and here a bill that is totally agreed on by every single member is being put through under urgency. It smacks of incompetence, it smacks of arrogance, and it smacks of a total dislocation of this Government from the real needs of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002207856b9dada040f7aabc9084fe35d7ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207856b9dada040f7aabc9084fe35d7ac\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to also support the Unit Titles Amendment Bill and associate myself with the comments made by my colleague the Hon Ruth Dyson. This was part of the Statutes Amendment Bill. Unlike most other parts of the Statutes Amendment Bill, it did attract a number of submissions and well-reasoned submissions. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those submissions were outside the scope of the relatively minor changes that were being made as part of the Statutes Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do want to reiterate that there has been a commitment to a substantive change in unit titles legislation. We had a minor change in 2010. It became apparent in 2011 that there were at least 21 minor errors to the minor legislation, and some major errors to that and some areas that needed to be looked at. Unfortunately, despite the commitments that were made to the Government Administration Committee by officials and by the then Associate Minister of Justice, there has not been any progress\u2014although I can be proven wrong. There might be a Unit Titles Act amendment bill introduced in the next couple of weeks. We did have an undertaking that we would have something back before the end of the year that dealt with the substantive matters that were raised with the select committee, but we had to tell the people making the submissions: \u201CSorry, this is a Unit Titles Amendment Bill, but it is not wide enough.\u201D It was not wide enough to encompass and to deal with the very real issues that are causing harm to people who own or want to develop unit title properties, or who want to convert properties into unit titles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do say to members opposite to, you know, think about Auckland a little bit, and think about some of the intensification that needs to occur. To do it properly, one of the answers\u2014it is only one of the answers\u2014is to have decent working unit titles legislation. It is important if people are going to feel safe putting what is often their biggest investment\u2014for most New Zealanders, their biggest investment is their property, the home that they live in. If people are going to feel safe about having unit titles, there has got to be good legislation and there has got to be appropriate legislation, and we have not got that yet, despite the promises of various Ministers, including Maurice Williamson and Nick Smith, over a period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAs has been indicated, this makes 21 amendments, all of them minor, to a minor bill that was enacted by Parliament under the National Government in 2010. The idea that the Government can make 21 mistakes in a relatively small bit of legislation does go to the lack of focus on detail and the lack of care of its Ministers, and the fact that they do not work their Cabinet committee and the select committee process well. In most countries making 21 errors in a relatively minor bill and having to come back to Parliament to get it fixed up a year or so later would be a source of outrage, but, unfortunately, that is the level of competence we have come to expect from the National Government. The bill comes to the Opposition, and the only reason we are supporting it is that it does a little bit of good for some people who have got unit titles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002258271d2c094b404eba94b1b0966630fb\u0022\u003EMedicines Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229753b49f6231448d84ab4f0e4220867d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002252202c83546d47daa64f328bacb745d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252202c83546d47daa64f328bacb745d9\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Medicines Amendment Bill to be taken as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8106c77bcec4a399528f3c4ae33fec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8106c77bcec4a399528f3c4ae33fec2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200ce565a1f5b436e950a5e82c4524c17\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00224fb81eef506847cd996b8da0654dd886\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fb81eef506847cd996b8da0654dd886\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E You can see that I am very eager to speak on the Medicines Amendment Bill, because I have looked forward to this day for 6 years. For 6 years I have looked forward to it. In fact, for 14 years this bill has been in the making. In fact, this bill makes a few changes to the Medicines Act 1981. It is an interim measure, after 14 years. It is a bit of a sticking plaster, a bit of a patch up, until the Government progresses the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Agency under a treaty that was signed between Australia and New Zealand in 2003. So this is not a comprehensive overhaul of the Act; it is an interim measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe irony of this is that National, after years of political posturing and shilly-shallying in Opposition, led by Tony Ryall, opposing a joint agency, finally decided in 2011 that it now supports it. That must be the biggest backflip that we have seen on a piece of policy in this House. The Prime Minister agreed in 2011 that National, which was once opposed to a joint agency, would now proceed with the establishment of the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe legislation that will bring this agency to life sits on the Order Paper of this House\u2014No. 47, if you want to have a wee look. It is the very legislation that I introduced in 2007, and is unchanged after all the political posturing. Now it is in the name of the Minister of Health, Tony Ryall. I have to say that after 9 years of National being in Opposition, with the most objectionable, obnoxious, and malicious fabrications\u2014full of cant\u2014about a joint agency, we now have a National Government in support of it. In fact, Mr Hayes probably knows quite a lot about it, because it was very much part of a trade deal we did with Australia under the CER and the Trans-Pacific Partnership and he is probably well aware of the negotiations that took place. But for purely political reasons, the National Party opposed the joint agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill takes out some of the changes that were going to be made, a very narrow range of changes, for an interim measure until the joint agency is set up. I look forward to that day because, as the former Minister of Health who took the heat on that bill and listened to so much rubbish over months and months\u2014in fact, years\u2014I am delighted that National finally saw the light. I have to give credit to the Prime Minister, because there is no way that Tony Ryall would have seen the light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EYou see, a regulatory impact statement undertaken by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research right back in October 2000\u201413 years ago\u2014confirmed that the Medicines Act 1981, the Medicines Regulations 1984, and the Dietary Supplements Regulations 1985 were outdated and gave rise to significant \u201Csafety risks, trade barriers, and costs to Crown and industry.\u201D It proposed in 2000 that the changes to be put in place should be around putting in place regulations to make change and putting in place international best practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWell, this bill, which we are now finally debating, modernises the definition of medicine, medical devices, and therapeutic products. We welcome that because it made up part of the negotiations for the joint agency all those years ago. The second thing it does is it changes the approval process for medicines and medical devices by the use of regulations to specify detail. We support that because it made up part of the changes that would have come in with the joint agency all those years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe third part of this bill amends the prescribing framework. We will have three types of prescribers. Authorised prescribers are the ones whom most people are familiar with. They are doctors, dentists, and midwives, and they prescribe within a scope of practice that has been defined for them. Then we have designated prescribers, and they are a restricted subgroup of authorised prescribers. Currently they are optometrists and nurse practitioners. They have already got prescribing rights, and there are some specialised nurses who are also designated prescribers. They are allowed to prescribe only medicines that are on a list, and these are listed in regulations. This bill revokes designated prescriber regulations for nurse practitioners and for optometrists, and now names them as authorised prescribers. So they now join the doctors, the dentists, and the midwives. It aligns them, and now they too will prescribe in line with their scope of practice. They have shown for 7 years that they are totally capable of doing that, so it has taken rather a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe new category of prescriber is the delegated prescriber. This new category is going to enable people to prescribe, under a delegation, an order by an authorised prescriber. That is a doctor or a dentist or a midwife, and in this case it would be a nurse practitioner or an optometrist. In fact, the requirements will be at a lower level, so they will have limited prescribing. But we believe that the changes will enhance the health workforce and also the ability to provide appropriate care within the community. We support all those changes in this bill. The reason why is that they were a Labour Government proposal. It is only 5 years later that, in fact, we are now looking to pass them into law. So we certainly support those changes in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBut because this is being taken as one debate, I have to emphasise again that we should have learnt a lesson about playing political games with major policy that affects the health of New Zealand, our trade obligations, and the economic viability of many businesses in this country. For purely political reasons the joint agency with Australia was held up predominantly by the then Opposition spokesperson on health, Tony Ryall, for no other reason than political purposes. Now, all these years later, having opposed it, National is going to pass the very bill that I introduced. The Prime Minister said that National now supports the joint agency. Can we not learn that there are some things that are for the good of this country and are supported across Parliament, instead of the sorts of stupid political games that were played with this particular policy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo now, in an interim way, we will make a few changes, a little bit of a sticking plaster, until the agency is in place. I will celebrate that day, as I am sure will the Hon Christopher Pyne, who is now the Leader of the House of Representatives in the Australian Parliament, and Tony Abbott, who was the Minister for Health and Ageing who helped negotiate it\u2014now the Prime Minister of Australia\u2014and who gave so many concessions to New Zealand to ensure that we have an agency that is fair, that is equal, and that enables us to act in a joint way and finally complete the negotiations with the one part that was missing under CER. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EYes, we will support this bill, but the bigger picture needs to be the passage of the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill, sitting on the Order Paper with the date on it saying it was introduced in 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00221c540703881b4278a49fecc4dc1078f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c540703881b4278a49fecc4dc1078f6\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Annette King outlined, the Medicines Amendment Bill is an excellent bill. It is a very good bill that not only streamlines our prescribing processes and streamlines the way in which we approve medicines and medical devices but also improves access to health care, particularly primary health care. It will improve people\u2019s access to medicines. It will make it an awful lot easier for many people, particularly people with chronic conditions, to be able to access the medicines they require, which is clearly the reason why the National Party has held it up for so long. That must be it. It is such a good piece of legislation, which improves access to health care. That must be why the National Party has held it up for so very, very long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EHere is a little bit of history for those who are watching at home. The National Party has actually known all along that this is a good piece of legislation. It knows that this is the right thing to do, but back in 2007 the National Party\u2014and, in particular, Tony Ryall\u2014saw a political opportunity. People may or may not remember a gentleman by the name of Gordon Copeland. Gordon Copeland was elected to this Parliament as a member of the United Future party. He decided to leave the United Future party, despite being a list MP whose only mandate to be here was the fact that United Future had gained a certain number of party votes and that its leader had managed to win an electorate seat. So Gordon Copeland was here as a United Future member, he decided to leave, and he made it his life\u2019s work to oppose the Labour Government on absolutely anything he could\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f54334fbf91b4243a44b7718a5c36670\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: When he remembered to vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239f93f8d0d374ae99ad5892a8215dff2\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when he remembered to vote. He did remember to vote against this legislation, which improves access to medicines in primary health care. The National Party members thought to themselves: \u201CAha! With his vote opposing the Government, if we decide to oppose this, we can actually stop the Labour Government achieving something that is enormously positive for the people of New Zealand.\u201D So, rather than doing the right thing, rather than having the interests of New Zealanders at heart, and rather than doing something that would improve the health of every New Zealander, the National Party chose to play politics and it blocked the Labour Government from passing this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThat was bad enough, frankly, but when National got into Government, the election was done, and the little political power play had had the effect it was looking for\u2014it was just one of the things that led up to the 2008 election. National was now the Government, it had the opportunity to act, and it had the mandate to act. This bill, the Medicines Amendment Bill\u2014which, of course, is exactly the same legislation that Annette King introduced, but it got rearranged slightly and reintroduced in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne\u2014was introduced on 13 October 2011. So it took this Government almost an entire term of Parliament to introduce the legislation. It then got its first reading after the 2011 election in February 2012, it came back from the Health Committee in August 2012, and it finally got its second reading in March this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo here we are, in November\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be8698eb04cd4c99a23e49661c2bc9a1\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ed5d4496ae4c5baf4e489e8c936f5d\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014under urgency, and suddenly this piece of legislation has become tremendously important to the Government. It is so urgent that it has taken the Government only 5 long years to get to this point. And now it is suddenly so urgent to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe0acffd3f9e40e6977b9cd0a06a2628\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Remember the 9 long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c51c7c342fb74d57b6762dfa40702e2c\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014pass it through its Committee stage to get to here. John Hayes just tried the \u201C9 long years\u201D line\u2014John Hayes just tried the \u201C9 long years\u201D line. We could have had this done when Labour was in Government, but your party, Mr Hayes, blocked it. Your party stopped it happening. It played politics over it. That is what it did, Mr Hayes. It put the health and well-being of New Zealanders to one side to play politics. You should be careful with your interjections, Mr Hayes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber we wholeheartedly support this legislation. We think it is a great pity that it has taken so long to pass this legislation. It has actually outlasted the Hon Peter Dunne. That is saying something quite significant\u2014that it has managed to outlast the Hon Peter Dunne. But this is good legislation. Annette King has covered the fact that it is the interim phase, before we get to the joint regulator. But, frankly, I am more interested in the prescribing rights\u2014the fact that this bill widens and deepens prescribing rights for many health practitioners. I am particularly interested in that because of the fact that so many people do not have adequate access to primary health care. General practitioners are tremendously important. They will always be an incredibly important component of primary health care, but we simply cannot provide the primary health services that we are going to need in the future if we totally rely on general practitioners to be the sole bastion of all prescribing rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe do need to move towards more nurse-led clinics. We need to give nurse practitioners\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ba3d111a6f4d288a08c6347b7584d2\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Paul\u2019s fainting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec72de78948545fea6b7b774db8f28af\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014more opportunities. I am looking forward to Dr Paul Hutchison\u2019s contribution on this legislation. We do need to make greater use of our highly qualified, highly educated nursing workforce and, in particular, the nurse practitioner workforce. That is the only way we are going to provide the primary health care services that New Zealand is going to need, and, in particular, that is how we are going to reach into those most deprived communities that simply do not have the primary health facilities that they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EDr Hutchison will have heard me talk about this at the Health Committee recently. If you map the location of primary health care services against the deprivation index, you get an almost perfect correlation. The most affluent parts of any community have an over-abundance of general practitioners, and the least affluent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a49e1efcf10430b9b8a3741ef1d8c54\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Do people get more sick in those communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd6ae7c402e04a9293e10e024d0cc20a\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that people get more sick. Maybe money makes you sick\u2014I do not know. But people in the most affluent areas have an over-abundance of general practitioners, and the people in the least affluent areas have minimal, or sometimes non-existent, services. It is those people who need primary health care services the most, and who often have the most challenges in terms of access. I am thinking about things like transport and the affordability of going to your doctor. So that is why we need to pass legislation like this, and do many other things to free up our health workforce to be able to provide the level of care that New Zealanders demand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is an absolute tragedy that this bill is the thing National chose to play politics over. This is the kind of legislation that sits on the back-burner for 5 long years, and then finally gets passed as part of an urgency motion, early on a Thursday morning. I think that speaks volumes about where this Government\u2019s priorities lie. I think it speaks volumes about this Government\u2019s priorities. I know that had Dr Paul Hutchison been the Minister of Health under this National Government, this bill would have been a priority. He would have progressed it much sooner than now. There is a gentleman who will be missed from this Parliament, because he brought some sanity to the health policy of National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002260ff67019edf4188a6ee69711ddff7dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260ff67019edf4188a6ee69711ddff7dc\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure, in fact a deal of satisfaction, to rise to speak to the Medicines Amendment Bill. I had the privilege of being on the Health Committee under the chairmanship of Dr Paul Hutchison when it was debated and reported back in August of 2012, prior to that I was also on the Health Committee in 2005, when this bill was first debated and when it first came into the House. So I have lived with this piece of legislation, albeit on the back-burner, as my colleague has said, for a very long time. Tony Ryall was the Opposition spokesperson on health. We worked on the Health Committee together\u2014or not, as the case may be, but we happened to be on the Health Committee together\u2014and I remember the parade of red umbrellas. It was the red umbrella protest. I am sorry if there are members opposite who have come into this House subsequent to the 2005 election and do not know of that performance, and now have to sit here, listening, while the Labour Opposition rightly sheets home to the National Party the blame for the delay in this legislation. If it is embarrassing for them, so it should be\u2014so it should be\u2014because this bill was in front of the Health Committee in my first term in Parliament, from 2005 onwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe Hon Tony Ryall saw fit to side with a set of protesters whose arguments ranged from the patently ludicrous to the quite sensible and worthy of debate, but who gathered together because of a range of measures. They saw this opportunity for a political score against the Labour Government at the time. So instead of looking to see whether the bill was going to benefit the health and welfare of New Zealanders, Tony Ryall saw fit to do what only Tony Ryall does best\u2014that is, calculate the political benefits and ups and downs. I have to say that I consider that to be the way the Minister continues to operate the health portfolio now\u2014that is, with half a dozen measurable outputs into which everything has to be squeezed so that he can sing his sunny song constantly about how well health is progressing. Any other stories\u2014the true ones\u2014about people who cannot get on to waiting lists to get operations or whose blood glucose meters are seriously jeopardising their health do not make it into Tony Ryall\u2019s narrative. They do not make it because he is only here for politics; he is not here for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is a historic reminder that that is this Minister\u2019s modus operandi. He will look to the politics before he looks to the content. We had this ludicrous situation with two new members on the Health Committee\u2014one a former general practitioner, Dr Jonathan Coleman, and one a former breast physician, Dr Jackie Blue\u2014who were compelled by Tony Ryall to oppose this, even though they knew it offended every professional ethic that they had. Jonathan Coleman had no trouble sacrificing his professional ethics, but Jackie Blue did have trouble sacrificing her personal ethics. However, that is history now. But let us not forget it. For those members opposite who do not know that history, it is important that they do understand it, because it is part of the progress, or lack thereof, of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis Medicines Amendment Bill modernises the Medicines Act. It is only a temporary measure until the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Agency is set in place. When that is set in place, it will overtake the provisions of this bill. However, the purpose of the provisions of this bill was to actually expand the ability of health practitioners to be able to prescribe, so that one did not have to go to a doctor all the time; one could go to a designated prescriber who came under the jurisdiction, the oversight, and the supervision of an authorised prescriber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI am not going to take up any more time over this. We support this bill because we invented it and because it is good for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Todd McClay to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 270 in his name to insert new clause 37A be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003Edelete subclause (1). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 270 in the name of the Hon Todd McClay to insert new clause 37A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAmendment as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended, Part 2, schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002219116247beba49ccbeec894ee84095d1\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8ca91c3d2e14bd8bb89629346f3b6ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8ca91c3d2e14bd8bb89629346f3b6ea\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Medicines Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill streamlines the current Medicines Act 1981 and is an interim measure until such time as the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill is passed. This legislation and the Natural Health and Supplementary Products Bill will comprehensively overhaul New Zealand\u2019s therapeutic products regulatory system. Indeed, this bill modernises the definitions of medicine, medical devices, and therapeutic purpose. It also amends the medicines approval process to make legislation less prescriptive, and instead specifies the detail in regulations. It will amend the prescribing framework to name nurse practitioners and optometrists as authorised prescribers, and makes some minor changes to licensing requirements. The bill also adds a new prescribing category: delegated prescriber. The definitions in the bill have been developed to reflect New Zealand\u2019s current regulatory framework and will be reviewed and updated again as part of the establishment of the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe changes that this bill proposes are consistent with this Government\u2019s dedication to improving and enhancing access to health services and removing, in a timely fashion, unnecessary red tape while ensuring an emphasis on patient safety. The bill revokes the designated prescriber regulations for nurse practitioners and optometrists, and names them as authorised prescribers. This will align their prescribing rights with those of medical practitioners, dentists, and midwives by enabling them to prescribe all medicines appropriate to their scope of practice. This move acknowledges the safe and appropriate prescribing practice of these groups over the past 7 years, and will support timely access to care for New Zealanders. The bill also creates a new category of prescriber, the delegated prescriber, who will be allowed to prescribe under a delegated prescribing order issued by an authorised prescriber. This bill also enables a licensing authority to take into account previous convictions when considering an applicant\u2019s fitness to hold a licence and to impose conditions either when issuing a licence or at any other time while the licence is in effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe default commencement date for the definition, prescribing, and other minor technical provisions will be 1 July 2014. The bill removes provisions in the Medicines Act that deal with medicines approvals and will replace these with a regulation-making power. The default commencement date for the medicines approvals provisions is set at 1 July 2017. This anticipates that the medicines approvals process provisions in the bill are likely to be superseded by the establishment of the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Agency, but provides a backstop should the implementation of the agency be delayed. This bill provides an opportunity to amend some specific provisions of the Medicines Act in advance of the comprehensive overhaul of the therapeutics legislation that will occur via the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill. This is timely legislation and a big priority for this Government. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb3f69fb3b464d8580a8264afc413f2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb3f69fb3b464d8580a8264afc413f2b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will support this bill, the Medicines Amendment Bill. It is an interim measure, it is a sticking plaster, it is a patchover until the Government progresses the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Agency, which was to be set up under a treaty that was signed between Australia and New Zealand in 2003. So it is not a comprehensive overhaul of the Medicines Act, but a couple of little measures to progress it along the way after being delayed by political posturing for almost 7 years. Why was there a need, in fact, to even look at a joint agency? I did mention some of this in the Committee stage. We needed to resolve a special exemption for therapeutic goods under the Trans-Tasman Mutual Recognition Arrangement in a manner that facilitated trans-Tasman trade and to enhance Closer Economic Relations (CER) between Australia and New Zealand. You see, it was one part of CER that had not been resolved in the late 1990s, and the New Zealand system and the Australian system for regulating therapeutic goods were so different that it necessitated a special exemption. That special exemption was given in 1997-98. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe were then required to work on getting rid of this exemption, and we could have done it in three ways. It could have been a mutual recognition, a permanent exemption, or a harmonisation of regulation. It was decided by the then National Government in 1999, when the New Zealand and Australian health Ministers agreed that they would go down the harmonisation track for regulatory requirements for therapeutic goods as the best option under the Trans-Tasman Mutual Recognition Arrangement. So the then Minister of Health, Wyatt Creech, started the process towards having a joint agency between Australia and New Zealand. That was when the National Party had members of Parliament who were sensible and who were prepared to look at the trade issues and the health issues and to progress them in a sensible manner. But, unfortunately, when there was a change of Government and a change of spokespeople, the bill became nothing more than a political plaything for the then National spokesperson on health, who is now the Minister of Health. And play with it he did, to the extent that he was able to delay the passage of any part of this bill until today, under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EMaryan Street set out a very good record of what happened when she was a new member of Parliament coming into the Health Committee, with Tony Ryall there as the Opposition spokesperson, and watching how National had gone from supporting an agency in Government to opposing it when in Opposition. The irony of this\u2014and I am sure members who were on that committee will understand the irony\u2014is that the bill on the Order Paper that will set up this agency, the very bill, was in my name in 2007. Not one word of it has been changed. The very thing National members railed against, which they went out on the street and argued against\u2014and said that it was evil, it was bad, and it could not be done\u2014is the bill that is No. 47 on the Order Paper. My name was taken off and Mr Ryall\u2019s was put on. Well, what an irony that is. It must be one of the biggest U-turns and pieces of political cant that I have ever\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c949318e70c4215a231df49b49704d2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: An S-turn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234e81aedc92f402d81f59f67c5ea0745\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is an S-turn\u2014an S-turn. Well, it is; I think that is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe66ae3309742318e052cfe971eef26\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Two U-turns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c73a880220ae49719ecc2bfb36e799c3\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was an S-turn, and it very much suits this particular Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EYou see, the shame of this is that many of the good things that are in this bill could have been done all of those years ago. I agree with my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway that we have got some wonderful health professionals in New Zealand. With the changes made to prescribing in this bill, these health professionals could be out there providing enhanced services\u2014particularly in rural and provincial New Zealand, and in specialised areas of health\u2014but they have been held up because it was not important enough to pass. But under urgency today we now need to pass it in a hurry. It makes a nonsense of this Government\u2019s legislative timetable, but it makes an even bigger nonsense of its hapless Minister of Health, who, for purely political reasons, held up this joint agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI will be interested to see whether the Hon Christopher Pyne, who is now the Leader of the House in Australia, and the Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, who gave so many concessions to New Zealand to ensure that we had a fair deal, will be prepared to sit round the table and give those concessions back to us again. They are going to say: \u201CHey, can we be sure that you will do it this time?\u201D. I think that they will be very reluctant to go down this track unless there is some assurance. The assurance that we can give the Government is that we will not be playing politics with the joint agency. We will be looking at the greater good for New Zealand. That is what this Government ought to do. All I can say is, shame on Tony Ryall. This delay is his delay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022761ac637c43f4c8caca35f3f89900774\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022761ac637c43f4c8caca35f3f89900774\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This Medicines Amendment Bill is a good bill. It is largely technical in nature and it is one that we are happy to support at its third reading. But, like the Hon Annette King, I want to provide a little bit of context, as is appropriate at the third reading. As Iain Lees-Galloway described in the Committee stage, the progress of this bill has been extraordinary, and also chaotic. Certainly, this morning I had to refresh my memory on much of the content of the bill because it has been so long since we last debated it in the House, and to now be progressing it through all of its remaining stages under urgency is a little extraordinary. One of the things that I noticed was the commencement date, and the change to the commencement date made by the Health Committee, which has turned out to be fortuitous. If we had not done that, the bill was due to have commenced in July of this year. At the time the select committee was considering it, we had no idea that it would take the Government this long, in fact, to come to finalise the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIt is hard to know whether that chaotic nature is a reflection of Minister Ryall\u2019s political lens, as Maryan Street has described it in the House. He is a Minister whose first instinct is to ask: \u201CDoes this win my party votes, or does it lose my party votes?\u201D. He is not a Minister who asks: \u201CIs this measure good for New Zealanders\u2019 health or bad for New Zealanders\u2019 health?\u201D. I think that is a sad thing, but we do not know whether the chaotic nature of this bill is a reflection of that or of a more general incompetence, either in the health portfolio specifically or around the Government\u2019s management of its House programme more generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EPart of the context for this bill that I want to talk about is the workforce. Minister Ryall has, for example, trumpeted an increased number of doctors, an increased number of nurses, both of which have been shown to be outlandish claims that are not supported by the evidence. For example, when asked about increased specialist numbers, he included in his new doctor numbers a very large number of junior doctors who are not, in fact, specialists. His increased nurse numbers include a very large number of nurses who previously worked in our hospitals under contracts and are now employees, so do not reflect any increased nursing capacity. It is a certain disingenuous use of data. Neither of those numbers reflects the maldistribution of those health professionals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWhy this is important is that New Zealand is going to be facing\u2014and, indeed, already is facing\u2014a massively increased burden of disease, particularly associated with chronic conditions. I have used diabetes in this House on a number of occasions as an example of an area where New Zealand is already facing this massively increased burden. If New Zealanders today require renal services they will be lucky to receive them. They will be lucky to receive them because those services are already being overwhelmed by the burden of disease associated with diabetes. That burden of disease is due to increase even more rapidly both because of the ageing New Zealand population but also because of the burgeoning incidence of type 2 diabetes. It is burgeoning to the extent that it seems likely, based on the PricewaterhouseCoopers projections and based on the work done by the University of Otago researchers on the current prevalence of type 2 diabetes and pre-diabetes, that in just 8 short years\u2014by 2021\u2014New Zealand will have moved from spending around half a billion dollars currently to spending around $2 billion each year on type 2 diabetes treatment alone. That is a massive increase in the burden of disease that our health services will face. It is an increase that we are ill-equipped currently to bear, and this Government is doing precious little about preparing us for that impact. In fact, in the face of that impact, this Government and this Minister of Health, Tony Ryall, have actually slashed spending on preventing type 2 diabetes, which is a massive, massive problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EAgainst that extremely worrying picture, the one bright light that I can pick from the Government\u2019s performance is, in fact, this bill, because clearly one of the things that New Zealand will need to do in the face of this impact from chronic conditions is to use our health workforce more intelligently and more flexibly. That will mean health professionals doing things that they are competent to do and that lie within their expertise, but which they are not currently doing. Part of the recipe for reaching that point is to change the regulatory framework that may be preventing them from working to the full scope of their expertise. That is one of the things that this bill does accomplish. It will see a wider range of health professionals being able to prescribe and actually use a greater part of their expertise to the advantage of New Zealanders\u2019 health. I already see it in the rural area that I come from, the desperate need\u2014and I spoke earlier in this contribution about the maldistribution of health professionals around the country\u2014to be doing that in order to provide for the needs of rural New Zealanders. But that need in rural New Zealand is effectively the thin end of the wedge. What we are experiencing in rural areas will be experienced right through the country as a result of this burgeoning chronic disease burden. A bill like this, which enables that stretched New Zealand workforce to work to the extent of its capacity, is a welcome contribution and the Green Party will vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00228de08aac33db4f8ab919da5921e339f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228de08aac33db4f8ab919da5921e339f4\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a call on behalf of New Zealand First on the Medicines Amendment Bill. New Zealand First supports this bill. This is a bill, as others have said, that has languished\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00225f861e45302246d3bb30645d9f31b269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f861e45302246d3bb30645d9f31b269\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for the luncheon break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd47ec826cf74c7d9c4da2958a979463\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229924da4b085847ca868ddfd0cd08ad58\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022147ad869c7cf4e90a6891cacde6add64\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Manufacturing Sector, Regional Economies, and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00225b7de4bfdf7f403db956a8f182757661\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b7de4bfdf7f403db956a8f182757661\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on the economy\u2014and especially on further signs of economic momentum in the regions and among manufacturers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002239db73bfa632428e8a83c2c36926a10d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239db73bfa632428e8a83c2c36926a10d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: The Minister of Finance has received a number of positive reports providing strong evidence of good momentum in the economy and of improving confidence. This is happening right across New Zealand, but particularly in the regions and, as it turns out, especially in manufacturing. New Zealand\u2019s healthy economic momentum is being recognised by respected international organisations such as the OECD, which forecast that New Zealand will be among the strongest developed economies in the world next year, with 3.6 percent growth. The Government is supporting these positive developments through its economic programme and especially through the Business Growth Agenda, which is focusing on creating the conditions for businesses to invest, grow, and create new jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6f46012b68e44119d49aea1c6f39142\u0022\u003EHon Phil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has he received confirming that the manufacturing sector is in good heart following a crisis that the sector was in in the mid-2000s?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282655297d5614e9d8e53fa56a4c54f64\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has received the BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Manufacturing Index for October. The index increased 1.5 points further in October, to 55.7. The manufacturing sector has now been expanding for 11 consecutive months, and this particular reading was the highest October reading since 2007. The index has, actually, averaged 56 since the start of 2013, which is very high by world standards. Interestingly, it is not just manufacturing; the BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Services Index is also at its highest level of activity since November 2007. The contrast between the Performance of Manufacturing Index now and the index in 2008, when it had readings down to 35, shows that the manufacturing sector then was truly in a crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602d025c27fa40879b2780e6905b058c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any recent reports confirming that regional New Zealand is leading the economic recovery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266903502bf5d40e1975aa9ea9e32333c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: This week the Minister received the ANZ Regional Trends survey. It reported that 12 of the 14 regions reported a lift in economic activity in the September quarter, led by Taranaki, which has the benefit, of course, of a vibrant oil and gas industry and also a dairy industry. Year-on-year economic growth accelerated in all but one region, and overall growth was the strongest reported since December 2004. It is great to see that Canterbury grew at 6.2 percent in the past year, which, of course, was the strongest in New Zealand. The Opposition failed at talking down the overall economy, and it has failed at taking down the regions as well. In fact, the regions are lifting New Zealand out of the global financial crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222941453ce31a46d49bb6c38da3ec69b5\u0022\u003EHon Phil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: How is New Zealand\u2019s good economic momentum, particularly in the regions and especially in manufacturing, translating into more jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e88e20cdd28a4c4ba95f0e89df827e7e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: There are good signs that the economic momentum is translating into more jobs. For example, the latest household labour force survey showed that employment was up 1.2 percent, or 27,000 people, in the September quarter. There were 53,000 more people in work compared with a year earlier. This is despite previous false declarations by some people that there have been crises in manufacturing and crises in the regions, and so on. I encourage those two groups to declare a crisis in some other part of the economy, as there seems to be a direct inverse correlation between those that declare a crisis and a subsequent resurgence in the sector that they have declared to be in crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247b758fe9fbc464e8c444ed78ef10fec\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Revenue, Costs, and Commentary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022035c13e182224110b7a04ac0fd0663f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022035c13e182224110b7a04ac0fd0663f6\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How much did the Government\u2019s share sales in Mighty River Power, Meridian, and Air New Zealand raise, given that the Supplement to the 2010 Investment Statement of the Government of New Zealand projected that those sales would raise $5.18 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00223a62df3808ed45df8adcf436a8d3d0ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a62df3808ed45df8adcf436a8d3d0ee\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: The potential proceeds the member quotes were based on estimated commercial values of the companies at that time. They were one of a number of estimates by the board and Treasury, but they were not market valuations, because, of course, there was no market on which to value the companies. There was only a market valuation for Air New Zealand because it was already listed on the sharemarket. The share programme has confirmed what the actual market values of these companies are. They take into account all sorts of factors, including a proposal to nationalise the electricity sector using a model found in only one other country. So, in answer to the member\u2019s question, the partial share sales have so far raised almost $4 billion for taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efe1d8c085464021aa97b5151286cf78\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the sales have so far raised almost $4 billion, whereas they were valued at $5.2 billion, is he satisfied with his performance as finance Minister given that he has lost $1.2 billion of public wealth with his failed asset sales programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4e7f0b9d034eea9ec3518398188da7\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I find it very hard to take from that member his criticism of the Government\u2019s proceeds from the asset sales, when he was doing his absolute level best through most of the year to scare investors away from the power companies, of which there have been two that have been floated. You cannot sit there in the Greens and say you are working to sabotage the float, and then turn round and say the value is not high enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb9065796924a9590d0cfcd1b0bf95b\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked whether he was satisfied with his performance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4ff2400d3a4ae69e115ea156255964\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member not only asked that; he then, effectively, said that the Minister was responsible for the loss of the $1.2 billion. If the member wants a simple question answered, I would advise him to ask that clear and simple question, and then I can assist him. But, in this case, the Minister has addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17412be93594d3fb410ea0b2b180ada\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does the Minister think he is in any position to lecture the Greens in this House on prudent economic management, when not only\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022128f1478e7ac4451bcf1b9fea3903b95\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Allow the member to finish his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226493f4a974f2449fa2f625a05f73b731\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think he is in any position to lecture the House on prudent economic management, when not only did he lose $1.2 billion of taxpayer money on the asset sales so far but the assets sales process has cost more than a quarter of a billion dollars\u2014money that went to brokers, lawyers, and admen when it should have gone to schools, hospitals, and good housing for New Zealand families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc20cfae27f044838919297bcc4d4e64\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Steven Joyce\u2014as far as there is ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a95ad1f04744059ca0c34cc27ebdc7\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree completely with the two suppositions tacked on to the member\u2019s question. I agree, yes, definitely, with the member\u2019s question, and the Green Party proves the quality of the Government\u2019s economic management every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd63173ea0b04e58a915d18924aa3126\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the New Zealanders who believed his spin and believed the $8 million taxpayer-funded ad campaign and bought into these companies, given that the value of the shares bought by retail investors has fallen by $150 million so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bed509dda1bd46a696d98e480aada084\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to decide which line he is running here: either the shares have been sold to National\u2019s greedy mates and they deserve everything that is coming to them, or they have been sold to mum and dad investors who are losing out. The whole concept is ludicrous. He has actually been complaining that investors would sell them on for a quick buck. The reality is that most investors are still holding the shares, and they have not lost any value, because they have not sold them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2fba8fa4d14421afc27aca5b841195\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: What is his answer to the question raised today in the Dominion Post by Vernon Small regarding the failed asset sales programme, who said \u201CWhy did the Government ever waste so much effort on something so unpopular that would make so little difference to the economy?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a95841fbae4f39b8de6cb3b2383ca3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to give a very clear answer to that question. The Government bothered for three reasons: first, to get those companies on the sharemarket so they could be properly analysed and properly supervised by a market economy; two, to give the opportunity for the market to grow and more opportunities for investors in shares in the New Zealand economy, and the New Zealand sharemarket has been boosted through this process; and, third, to, so far, save the Government from borrowing $4 billion\u2014$4 billion\u2014that it would otherwise have had to borrow on the world stage. If the member thinks it is so wrong, I invite him to go out and declare transparently, as this Government did, that the Greens would borrow $4 billion and buy the shares back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1755c14ed714a76bd1a423b1ca566d7\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is Brian Gaynor correct in the New Zealand Herald when, arguing about the failed asset sale programme and the Government\u2019s economic management, he said: \u201CInvestors are now realising that there are huge risks associated with the current Administration because it doesn\u2019t appear to have anyone at the helm steering a straight and consistent course as far as major business decisions are concerned.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022008e8583edcc45529433dc7a9fa4a4dc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, and if Mr Gaynor wanted to see a contrast between a Government that knows how to run an economy and one that does not, then he should vote for the Greens at the next election and see what he could really wish for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226924074d0e8440bf9c2252054f63bdde\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Are the market rumours that are circulating at the moment true, that the Government is going to back away from the Genesis sale given the complete failure of the asset sales programme so far, or is National determined to sell the assets regardless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6cc875caae4ba6b0266ac412a0d4a3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody takes the Greens seriously with their views on the share sales, because they have a doctrinaire opposition to them. The reality is that the share sales have been a success. They have saved New Zealand taxpayers $3.9 billion that otherwise would have had to be borrowed on world markets, and the Opposition members, if they really have a conviction on this, should get out there today and promise to buy the shares back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2d41e853a2347f1bf4989614d6f38ea\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a pretty direct question about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227059c5faa050477187b56eb56e14b026\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to ask his question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347e872b368940ebaf3d52fcf870c99f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Are the market rumours true that the Government is going to back away from the Genesis sale given the failure of the asset sales programme so far, or is National determined to proceed regardless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b35a1e98f4b40e69257794eac073d56\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I was disagreeing with the proposition contained in that speech from the member. The reality is that the Government does intend to proceed with the Genesis sale and does intend to raise more money so we do not have to borrow more money on the world markets. The public will judge the quality of New Zealand\u2019s management of debt, and one of the things they will judge is the amount of income raised from these mixed-ownership model companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265190f3e61f74a858a2039ad0439f1b3\u0022\u003EPike River Mine Disaster\u2014Compensation and ACC Investment in Energy Companies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c418825511eb44c98883960e0ff80308\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c418825511eb44c98883960e0ff80308\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: How much did ACC invest in Pike River Coal Limited and in New Zealand Oil and Gas Limited over the last eight years, and how much has it made or lost in total on its investment in each company, taking into account share purchases, subscriptions and sales, dividends, and current share prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002223e6b5e5a2864901a82df970f0d0ec2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223e6b5e5a2864901a82df970f0d0ec2f\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the shares currently held by ACC in New Zealand Oil and Gas cost $22.4 million and have an unrealised loss of $3.9 million. Over the last 8 years it has made a realised gain, including dividend and trading income, of $8.9 million. The shares currently held by ACC in Pike River Coal Ltd cost $20.5 million and have an unrealised loss of $20.5 million. During the last year it has made a realised loss, including dividend income, of approximately $1 million. In total the net loss of the investment to date has been $16 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e36f4ae241f24a5b9d958dedba7faf14\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Of ACC\u2019s $2 billion profit on investments last year, how much did ACC pay towards the court-ordered compensation that Pike River Coal, a company that ACC partly owned, has not honoured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b7da01fcd143a2957a77ff599fe0e2\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, ACC had no obligation or requirement to pay that, and it was not ordered by the court to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ccb183737454437a452f1b07758d395\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was not that; my question was how much has ACC, from its\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fbf1e80c0c94669af6f12283d063def\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I invite the member to ask that question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6a08759fc748baaa02375af0f87c4e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Of ACC\u2019s $2 billion profit on investments last year, how much did ACC pay towards the court-ordered compensation that Pike River Coal, a company that ACC partly owned, has not honoured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226629ee1ceb864316bcccfacd4b17f883\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly the same amount that the court ordered ACC to pay, which was none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022107c431f784a4908a188470d6232b2ad\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why did ACC vote against the New Zealand Oil and Gas resolution of shareholders at the company\u2019s recent AGM instead of voting otherwise, or online or via its proxy, to contribute money to Pike River families, which would have assisted in paying the compensation awarded by the courts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c306efdb92c40439f117b7c79f98f37\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think I should correct the member in relation to the actual motion, which was \u201CThat the Company investigates and reports to shareholders on paying the reparation order of $3,410,000 handed down \u2026\u201D. ACC voted against it, I am advised, because it did not believe as a shareholder that it was sufficiently informed on all of the considerations to make a judgment as to what was the right stance for New Zealand Oil and Gas to take on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff59b651cbfe4ef288ccff87b715382d\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why has ACC made no claim against the directors of Pike River Coal Ltd for ACC\u2019s losses following the misleading statements in the Pike River prospectuses, which could have also been used by ACC to pay for compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271191a37a87743b5b01e8f2793b9580c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Could you ask the member to repeat his question, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bd88e1767144c7ea94e85c5345f8711\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will certainly ask the member to repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5f31a0f6bb04742b3e0f03f53096998\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why has ACC made no claim against the directors of Pike River Coal Ltd for ACC\u2019s losses, which the Minister said is $20 million, following the clearly misleading statements in the Pike River prospectuses, which, again, could be used by ACC to pay the compensation that the miners\u2019 families have not received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e29bd03641845ba9354e73ee9d56899\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: That question is extremely speculative and it would be a matter for the board of ACC, not for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b0a36ce3215453ca63ba6a59fe1a6e2\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that it is repugnant that ACC has done nothing to enforce its right to hold the errant directors of Pike River Coal to account, has not contributed to the court-awarded compensation, and, as one of the largest shareholders in New Zealand Oil and Gas, it voted to block that company from doing so too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4511b8da8b34f6f964095b3fa314363\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would not call it repugnant; what I would call it is in accordance with the law, and I would also point out to that member that ACC will have, in fact, by the end of next year paid almost $5 million to the families of those who were tragically killed at Pike River. There will be, in fact, around $16 million to $20 million extra paid, and that is in addition to the massive $16 million loss in the investment, which, by the way, was commenced under a Labour Government. Ruth Dyson was the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022828e85bdfc16439fab752889d28c3ea5\u0022\u003EConstitutional Review\u2014Acknowledgment of Tikanga M\u0101ori\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002216bd3552c5e3402990cd175cc29a632c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216bd3552c5e3402990cd175cc29a632c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: Does he stand by his statement \u201CI know M\u0101ori want to talk about the place of the Treaty of Waitangi in our constitution, and how our legal and political systems can reflect tikanga M\u0101ori.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5f1682c1030400f8fbfde7d048a184d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5f1682c1030400f8fbfde7d048a184d\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: Yes; because that is what some folk have been saying to me over the years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237d470d49924da4ac2a286c6682f9b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does he not understand that under our existing constitution and law every New Zealander has the right to practise his or her religious or cultural identity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d490456554f74127836db364998cfbef\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister understands that perfectly well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd92576b91948e8aa49d6d1c54a30d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if he understands that perfectly well, is it his view that our current constitutional arrangements give every New Zealander the same status of citizenship; if so, why has he argued for a different constitutional status based on tribalism and race?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022322b5c537daa428fa95c1c43ee82e3ce\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister understands that equality is a fundamental, bedrock principle of our constitution. Constitutional structures evolve over time; there is no big deal in any of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265e1aae0fab64685921619e9b4860e1e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If there is no big deal in that, why is he arguing for our new constitution to include provisions that would be destructive of democracy\u2014that is to say, a provision where one group of New Zealanders gain their status from being New Zealanders and another group gain their status by being members of a tribe or iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa91f6e0c29946799c4df45a52b32c01\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s entire life has been dedicated to equality. That is why he took such a firm stand on the hateful foreshore and seabed legislation, which denied people the right of access to the court on the basis of race and which that member supported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5086c6b2784dddbce3e2a7d0614e2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb35735c26e543f1b7d6f89558f07aa5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! This is a point of order. It will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ef765858d04695915d983038169fd1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very clear question I asked the Minister, and he has not given me any answer at all to the question I have put to him. The question is simply this: why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57540a592bc43f6be752851866c0f50\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, I heard the question, and in my opinion the member addressed that question. The way forward is not to raise a point of order with the Speaker. The way forward is to use a further, incisive supplementary question to try to get the answer that the member wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f4df48d8954b45a52aa96dadee9e44\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The way forward is not as you suggest, because we have only a limited number of supplementary questions. We well know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022595952a46d174335bf1dcfd35706f407\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! How many supplementary questions has the member got left now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a6ec068fef04a168b2aa59b936815b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: We have only\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdf80ba0c4f4097b8df3a6a9d996d56\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He has two left, so I suggest he uses them quickly, otherwise we will move to the next question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236adee9a51ac41ba80bea8f8f24e746a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will ask the same question again, one more time, and hope for an answer. Why is he arguing for our new constitution to include provisions that would be destructive of democracy\u2014that is to say, a provision where one group of New Zealanders gains their status from being New Zealanders and the other group gains their status by being members of a tribe or iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac87ef8e0a474bf0aec52ef6d9eac288\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not arguing for anything that would be destructive of that constitutional bedrock principle of equality before the law. Indeed, my entire life has been dedicated to making sure all New Zealanders are equal before the law, including M\u0101ori, who were denied the right to go to court in an endeavour to prove that they had a customary title because they were M\u0101ori, something I found utterly repugnant. I pay tribute to that outstanding member, Tariana Turia, who worked with me to ensure that that disgusting legislation was repealed. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf73357455f43719513485cf1c2cae0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! There is a supplementary question. [Interruption] Order! I am just trying to get the House a bit quieter for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a196f68448a4c4089ef639d1c42a07f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If that customary title legislation was so disgusting to M\u0101ori, why did every coastal M\u0101ori tribe back it, unlike what the Minister has just said? More important, are we to have now a Parliament that is sovereign, or are we to have both a Parliament and a Treaty partner, which means we have two sovereigns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022768b5362b58b4e898ade86d712ac8df2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Chris Finlayson, in answer to either of those two questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbdd96e0fe6a4994a866d3422f497660\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will endeavour to answer those manifold questions. The first is that not every coastal iwi supported that disgusting legislation at all. The second point is that there is no issue about parliamentary sovereignty, and the member, as usual, is chasing moonbeams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07a36f0a2d54f078908ba4436ae1f4d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Whether you are aware of it or not, there is a constitutional review going on now where precisely that is being argued\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a00b19bdcc4a46bea21a35adc729249c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] No, what we are getting here is a relitigation of the answer that has been given, by way of point of order. That leads to disorder. If the member wants to raise a point of order, he should raise it quickly and refer to the particular Standing Order, and I will attempt to help the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022065be7e1b1174044a85d86fe8b189bb6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Standing Order is known to all of us. It is that the answer to the question be direct to the question that you were given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c8ff69473b404298f1b784a67cf073\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Now the member can resume his seat. That is exactly the point that I made. The member is now relitigating the answer because it is not to the standard the member wants. The member, in my opinion, addressed very adequately the question that was asked by the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a81a1881f60a4942817c3b76bd9d31e4\u0022\u003EFinance, Associate Minister\u2014Management of Contract with Chorus\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00221b604775edaf4edea1834de55af02c46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b604775edaf4edea1834de55af02c46\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Finance: Is he satisfied with his performance in regard to his delegations as Associate Minister of Finance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002229946c4ed58742abb2de3565ac685ce0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229946c4ed58742abb2de3565ac685ce0\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, can I say that I am surprised to see the member here today. I thought he would be down with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2dd854fe2ae459ab5144ff2dde7f393\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The start to that answer is just not going to help the order of this House at all. Would the Minister stand and answer the question that has been asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed03449924804a9eba6df8c31c8c2ba3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec2a2e3fa8e4cd3a50353982aa18dec\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223da7389b7180425a808e6427ef74b7d4\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: That question is for the Prime Minister to judge, not me. It is perhaps worth noting, though, that in 5 years in the role this is the first time this portfolio has attracted a question in the House from the Opposition, which perhaps suggests it has not seen too much to concern it over that period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b7b155c17414f2792fe10c6e0c94307\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Given that answer and the fact that he is directly responsible for the events that have led to the precarious financial position of Chorus, as outlined in delegations transferred to this Associate Minister, will he take responsibility for the catastrophic failure of Chorus, for its $500 million write-down? He is not so smug now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570678a382404b72a73079954a277c82\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I think the Opposition needs to line up its attack on this particular question, because Opposition members are sitting there saying that the Prime Minister was wrong to say that the Commerce Commission would place the company at risk, and now they seem to be suggesting that it does place the company at risk. This is a serious issue. The reality is that Chorus was relying on a certain amount of income from copper broadband to help pay for its share of ultra-fast broadband. The Commerce Commission has made a determination that will at least partially remove that income and some of the money that Chorus was relying on, and that may lead to price reductions or it may not. The Government has sought an independent assessment of the financial position of Chorus. Once that assessment has been received, we will work through the options to ensure that ultra-fast broadband is completed and done so at a very fair cost to taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4442a0462f4ccd8ec0802920d93964\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Explaining is losing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af4ca1589a4247d7b8feb7b0af1f2a8a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b5fa279aa84f968a2ede3741de4901\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0ee43429c34854b895ece3a00908ef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to continue with a line of supplementary questions, I invite him to do so, but if he is going to make an interjection like that again, we will just move to the next question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db3b44b2a07b4abbaeb665c3477a5dae\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that he should no longer have delegated responsibility for Chorus Ltd as Associate Minister of Finance, but should have in fact have responsibility for Chorus as Minister for Small Business, given that that is what it has become under his watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b65071223f4b4981b3b36ef252bb7736\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I can only marvel at the gymnastics of the Opposition, which is one minute telling the Government that there is no problem that needs to be solved, and the next minute is saying that there is a problem that needs to be solved. It is just playing politics. This Government\u2019s ultra-fast broadband project is seen worldwide as a success. There is an issue to be dealt with. The Government will deal with this issue responsibly, and the Opposition will carp no matter what the solution is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ebdb90c9fc44209d041aae844c446a\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Given his close history with this issue and obvious responsibility for the fundamental failure of Chorus, did it occur to him that he was fouling the reputation of Sue Sheldon, the current chair of Chorus\u2014apparently a paragon of audit and risk\u2014and given the fact that she, in her dealings with him, has presided over a $500 million loss, does he not agree that she has no option but to resign today as the deputy chair of the Reserve Bank?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eff58335d06d46938ebb1b2ab4393d68\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but it is very hard to take that question remotely seriously, because the reality of the situation is that the Commerce Commission has come up with a determination that is going to create some issues for that company. Those issues are being worked through in a responsible way. The Government is seeking advice in terms of its contract with that company. That is being dealt with absolutely correctly. Again, I have to say that the Opposition needs to decide what its view is on this matter, because that member is disagreeing with his leader, who is criticising the Prime Minister for saying there was a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207634e63f8fb436183a0faf6bf53b5e6\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Given that answer and the advice he is taking on the contract of Chorus, and the prospect of that contract being rewritten, does he not agree that he provides a precedent for the Green Party to rewrite the contract of Skycity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224384dd0ea1334ab291b71750b517157a\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, dear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95b36e36402420989b248c61d91920f\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Two and two equals seven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022551125d5cde4413e94bccaee0aaa7154\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think that is it. Two plus two equals 45 in Shane Jones\u2019 world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a6922f6b6894575b77035bfb2a55e2e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Just address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e595d3892d74e8eb95c4584db4f3c16\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I thought he was once a Labour leadership contender. I reject completely the member\u2019s question. It is on another planet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e990505577648bc936c697c7e8ea4ac\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. When you measure the level of admonition from one side of the House to the other, it is necessary for you, as we take leave next week, to take account of the fact that that side gets a lot of leeway from you and you are constantly threatening to throw\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224222208f657649ce934965ca7b21e6f1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022207abce5d8a84ac8a2dff89d85ea4f1e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014this side of the House out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022855176e774fd433c95c8b1e0fd83dd5b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Would the member please resume his seat. I have some sympathy for the point the member is raising. The question asked was a very loaded question. The Minister does not help the order of the House, and on two occasions I have had to ask him to desist. He does not help the order of the House by answering a question with those sorts of initial comments. I do ask the Minister to do so. My alternative is simply to ask the Minister to leave the Chamber. I do not think that is warranted at this stage, but I will warn Ministers that if they continue to do that, they leave me no option but to then ask Ministers to leave the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022096439dd45da4289b8c8dbae5383e2d7\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not in any way challenging the ruling that you have made, but I want to make clear that on this side of the House you have rightly, in the terms of the strict Standing Orders, admonished people on this side of the House and clearly said to them that the next time they do it they will leave the Chamber. Our concern is that Mr Joyce, particularly, in virtually every answer breaches the Standing Orders and we would ask that he is held to the same standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211612a48b0e44582b47d5f6c9a90ad66\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear from the Hon Steven Joyce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4daa85a825e4f55a51ff7501bfe51a9\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I understood that the convention was that if it was a politically loaded question, the Minister in response had the possibility of providing a political response. I have been very careful whenever I receive a question that is one that is not politically loaded to respond to the question. I think my history in this House demonstrates that. But when it is political\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de44569c957d45bf9bd536051ab5ceac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have heard enough and I can help the Minister with his question. If a politically loaded question is asked, then members who ask such a question can expect an answer back. But it is totally unhelpful for the Minister to initiate his answer with some almost throwaway comment to members on the other side, and that is what they are objecting to. To the point raised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2679aa3a98b4cc59f659d49d2f40541\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb350192a57b4311b674cde759f794f1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! To the point raised by Grant Robertson, I say that I do not want to make a habit of asking members to leave the House. I attempt to give very clear warning to members before I ask them to leave this House. On this occasion I have given a very clear warning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211737d50e9894f1a8a3cbafd2c3065e9\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: About time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05256d43a1546168bffcba142180f04\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I have given a very clear warning that if Ministers continue to ignore an instruction that has been given from the Chair, then they can expect the same sort of treatment in being asked to leave the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b2a95a27884fe7a648d778ecb505af\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would invite you to go back into your ruling and to look very carefully at the question that Shane Jones asked. Although it was asked with some flourish, it was essentially a straight question as to whether someone who had made a loss of $500 million was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e731dba851f342bbae202b81b5feef3b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any more\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d7d5cf972fd4b13a773ae7e243ea0c4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a suitable person to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284e3b241305d48c490f945a4e74729c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member, I think, has answered his own point of order. When a question is asked with some flourish\u2014I think that was the word he used\u2014then it does not become a clear, precise, perceptive question. If it is asked in that way, loaded with some political connotations, then that is the answer that members can expect back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002295d34cf6d99f419b8b6c205ac10c1e31\u0022\u003EBusiness Growth Agenda\u2014Construction Sector Report and Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00229790f9d074ee446fb0d535e31b6c8ccd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229790f9d074ee446fb0d535e31b6c8ccd\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What reports has he received regarding the state of the building and construction sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022c201f1556cc94798b08fbea34c97fd62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c201f1556cc94798b08fbea34c97fd62\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E The Government yesterday released the construction sector report, which provides what I think is a very comprehensive report card on the state of the sector, and I would ask all members of this House to have a good read of it. The report will support the Government\u2019s Business Growth Agenda by improving understanding of the economy. Currently, the sector employs 170,000 people and generates revenues of around $30 billion per annum. The report highlights the huge wave of work that is coming in this country, with the peak expected to occur in 2016. The sector needs to be ready to ride this wave and make sure it has a skilled workforce to cope with such a tidal wave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f15b7a88b84548b1bb9d29e41498d8\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to support the sector to prepare for this boom in construction activity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9cc0d08bee0454d97ba643185d9e3fa\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: We recognise that with all the work that is coming in Christchurch, Auckland, and the regions it is vital to have as many skilled workers as possible. That is where the apprenticeship reboot scheme comes in. Already, more than 8,000 people this year have signed up for a trade. It has indeed been a huge success. Yesterday the Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills and Employment, Steven Joyce, announced that the Wellington Institute of Technology and Whitireia Community Polytechnic will invest $13 million in a new Regional School of Construction for Wellington. The Government is also improving the professionalism in the sector through the licensed building practitioner scheme, for which we now have 23,500 licensed practitioners. Other moves to cut red tape involve introducing risk-based consenting, the uptake of building information modelling, and the development of a national online consenting system, which will all add to the productivity of the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022039f610d5e0343eab1df33dc746ba000\u0022\u003EOil and Gas Exploration\u2014Assessment of Anadarko\u2019s Risk Management Plans\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00224db1b433e9804109bed5b377ac528f57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224db1b433e9804109bed5b377ac528f57\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Did the Environmental Protection Authority assess the full version of Anadarko\u2019s Discharge Management Plan and Emergency Response Plan as part of its evaluation of the company\u2019s Environmental Impact Assessment for the Deepwater Taranaki Well; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbef4ad205234fb8b9e1d96a700580e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbef4ad205234fb8b9e1d96a700580e1\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Under the transitional provisions within the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Act, which are in effect until July 2014 and which apply to the application in question, the Environmental Protection Authority is required to assess only the completeness of the impact assessment, as set out in section 39, not make a finding on its effectiveness. I note that the Environmental Protection Authority is an independent agency that operates at arm\u2019s length from Ministers and, therefore, this matter is entirely operational for the authority. However, I am advised by the authority that although it did not see the version of the discharge management plan that was finally approved by Maritime New Zealand, it does consider that it received sufficient information to satisfy its obligations under section 39 as they apply during the transitional period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71a060839634645976e9be4cf1c8c44\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister for the Environment satisfied that the Environmental Protection Authority has done its job, when it has signed off on Anadarko\u2019s well without having the full facts in front of it about potential environmental effects from a spill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbe3cb4e83da42c7b81ff80662cbc2e1\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister for the Environment, it is not my job to second-guess the independent decisions of the Environmental Protection Authority. But, as I pointed out in my answer to the primary question, it is not the job of the authority while in the transitional period to approve the impact assessment; it is its job to receive and ensure that it is completed. That is very clearly what the legislation says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238785d895b6246aa95f68115d139608c\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Given that legal doubts have been raised, is she confident that the Environmental Protection Authority has fulfilled its statutory obligation to determine that Anadarko\u2019s environmental impact assessment was complete, given that it saw only summaries of Anadarko\u2019s oil spill modelling and emergency response plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4832c115b274b6e8e574dd589e960e9\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I can advise the member that the Environmental Protection Authority has confirmed to me that it considers it has met its statutory obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8491cd977954565ae01d49e87e01db0\u0022\u003EGareth Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Has not only the Government kept the public in the dark by suppressing these documents but also the Environmental Protection Authority has kept itself in the dark by not seeking and seeing full versions of Anadarko\u2019s oil spill response plans, before giving approval to drill the deepest-ever well in New Zealand\u2019s waters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286dd9b1e7fa3498d8b139d144af2ab94\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I can only repeat what I said to the member in response to the earlier questions. The Environmental Protection Authority\u2019s obligation during the transitional period is to be satisfied that it has received a complete impact assessment under section 39 of the Act. The advice it has given me is that it is confident that it has received that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac562d959994aa5b80c64b8f8ab66b7\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Is it still her assertion that deep-sea drilling can be done safely by Anadarko off the coasts of Taranaki and Kaik\u014Dura because we have been drilling offshore in Taranaki for decades with no problems, when advice she received a year ago shows that the risk of a reportable incident each year increases from 10 percent at depths that we have drilled in so far to 70 percent at the new deep-water depths proposed for off the coast of Kaik\u014Dura?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef801ab5c8664b7cabf4f7804eaaa78b\u0022\u003EHon AMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It is my view that it can be undertaken safely. That is not to say that there are not risks; of course there are risks, and, yes, risks do increase as you get deeper. We have always been clear about that. But let me be really clear about this: the 70 percent figure, which Mr Cunliffe is toting around the country and whipping up unjustified concern about, is the risk of a reported incident\u2014a reported incident. That includes property damage, it includes accident or injury to workers, and it includes days of being shut down. It is not the indication of a likely oil spill. In fact, the best international information that I have seen tells us that the average rate of spill for deep-water, offshore wells is 2.54 per 1,000 wells, and most of those spills are minor and contained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bb54ca247924b518fed8c08386f285c\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Air New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3c2d109683e478192e06ddea5899857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3c2d109683e478192e06ddea5899857\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: When, if at all, did Cabinet approve the timing of the Air New Zealand sell-down and what directions did Cabinet give the shareholding Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022464d29bb6e394fbeacf4e3be71f33956\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022464d29bb6e394fbeacf4e3be71f33956\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: In December 2011 Cabinet confirmed that the Crown would sell down its shareholding as part of the mixed-ownership programme announced nearly a year earlier. On 2 September 2013 Cabinet authorised joint Ministers, comprising the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, Associate Minister of Finance Steven Joyce, and the Minister for State Owned Enterprises, to determine the final timing of the transaction. Under this authorisation the joint Ministers made the final decision on the timing of the transaction on Friday, 15 November, subject to the appointment of joint lead managers and determining the transaction\u2019s structure. The Air New Zealand sell-down occurred on 19 November and was highly successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fc8af334dc14f4d8932b60308e9c041\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Why was formal approval not sought for the timing of the transaction, worth hundreds of millions of dollars, or was it a case of Mr English having a drink on the Friday night and deciding to flog them off? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5028abb92a14d30ac567bb497e27a73\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am going to ask the member to ask that member again, but the last bit just does not help the order of the House. If we could just have the factual question, I think the member stands a far better chance of getting an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225760b192514d95a14df5f8a6f84866\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: To the Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977415599c1a4b2dbcd8047605b73f9f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c31b6ac79fb94f1bab79ca6bfafdba5a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Sensitive. Why was formal Cabinet approval not sought for the timing of a transaction worth hundreds of millions of dollars, or is it the case that Minister English, on Friday night, decided to flog the shares off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209970f6c99504418b8ebbf89245bd0ed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not greatly improved by that, but anyway, the Hon Steven Joyce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c71fd19638b64b3797d4089c251208dc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The member was simply not listening to the first answer to the question. I invite him to do so, because the idea of having supplementary questions is that you expand on the answer to the first question. The key point is that Cabinet approved the transaction taking place, but the timing of the transaction was actually delegated to joint Ministers: the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, the Associate Minister of Finance Steven Joyce, and the Minister for State Owned Enterprises. Ministers took the decision after 5 p.m. on the Friday to make the decision to proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb81a0095bb24a7aad60bcdfbb859afd\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Given his answer yesterday in this House that he would not have to go \u201Ccrawling to foreign bankers\u201D to fund debt, could he please explain whom he is borrowing the current $424 million per month from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220923d18552724e62ab3a0430210d25e1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Steven Joyce, in so far as it is related to the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c083f83b5d4c6593b907f3b1b6332d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I look at the primary question\u2014and I appreciate that the member has run out of supplementary questions because I have answered the question\u2014and, actually, the debt question has got nothing to do with the primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022890bed030b8241ae857a0cf8a63b27b4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I am certainly going to accept that as an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b96068512704881b4744e7f83741787\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to the Air New Zealand sell-down, has he seen the statement of a sharebroker published in the Christchurch Press today, who describes the sell-down of Air New Zealand as \u201CWhat another bloody debacle\u201D\u2014and forgive the invective, Mr Speaker, but it is a direct quote\u2014if so, does he now acknowledge that, along with Kiwi mums and dads, the big end of town also believes that he has stuffed this transaction up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267790611201c456ab7f62c6612e14203\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour Party\u2014the party of stockbrokers! That is what we have now. Again, the member needs to make up his mind. Either we are making too much money or not enough money, but he needs to stop actually arguing it around. The reason I am answering in this way, Mr Speaker, is that you heard the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223cce4cc5c514075bec04c431b4fd764\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: How will he make up the shortfall of his asset sales target? Will he forgo building the mythical schools and hospitals he promised, or will he go \u201Ccrawling to foreign bankers\u201D to borrow the money to make up the shortfall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d861d02f2c034b7d8b6a055202cec73c\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is the Government has a net Crown debt of $60 billion. If we did not do these sales, that number would be $4 billion higher now, and then $5 billion higher. The question, actually, for the Opposition is: are those members promising to borrow the money to buy the shares back? If not, the rest of it is all wind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e712bed6ad42477689ee0587216ce9d0\u0022\u003EChristchurch, Recovery\u2014State and Social Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00229fda8f3a1ff1410283fa6dca8ae0a71e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fda8f3a1ff1410283fa6dca8ae0a71e\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What steps is the Government taking to rebuild Christchurch\u2019s housing stock damaged or destroyed by the earthquakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9ffb207d6524a55a3fa2363e0e20f97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9ffb207d6524a55a3fa2363e0e20f97\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is committed to a programme of having all 5,000 damaged Housing New Zealand homes repaired and 700 new homes built, or the equivalent of one a day, by the end of 2015, and we are making good progress. Today I turned the first sod on a new $9 million, 26-unit development on Manchester Street, where six old, damp State houses previously stood. Eleven of the new 26 homes will be retained by Housing New Zealand and the remainder will be sold on the private market. This approach of increasing the density of housing in the central city and moving to mixed housing developments of social and private housing is part of our vision for Christchurch\u2019s future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256857477356248cb8975bfbf516d43d6\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government addressing the housing problems of the people of Christchurch with mental health needs, given the stresses this community has been through and the escalating costs of housing from the thousands of homes damaged by the earthquakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022453cf7f844dd40c7ac8d7f0a4f94b889\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has partnered with Comcare Trust, a specialist community housing provider for people with high needs, and has provided funding of $4.1 million to expanding its housing portfolio by 45 homes. We opened the first six of these in St Albans today. These tenants have complex needs that are better met by a specialist community housing provider like Comcare Trust. This initiative is a flagship of our social housing reforms, underpinned by new legislation that was passed unanimously by Parliament yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045891c58ba94679a8b508abbc469871\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Christchurch City Council that there is severe stress on the housing stock, or does he agree with Gerry Brownlee, who says it is just a housing pinch; and after 5 years in Government and 3 years since the quakes, is it not about time he sorted out his failed housing policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298014e9817b742b8971804896645f3f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I would much rather be focused on building a house a day and rebuilding those 5,000 houses that were damaged by the earthquakes than have an argument that the Opposition seems to be focused on as to whether it is a housing challenge, a housing crisis, or a pinch, which are the sorts of word games that get families nowhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa60a85642744099b7a372393756899a\u0022\u003EMeat Industry\u2014Government Investment and Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00228af41582024b41f7bc4fb85a485ce9d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228af41582024b41f7bc4fb85a485ce9d0\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014West Coast - Tasman)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Primary Industries: Does he stand by his statement \u201CThe opportunity, and challenge, for our meat producers now is to add value to different cuts of meat and continue to sell the New Zealand story\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00228decfe32d6ab4236833cd64b469ef4b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228decfe32d6ab4236833cd64b469ef4b0\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister for Primary Industries):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. This Government has a goal of doubling our primary sector exports by 2025. I have just returned from a very successful trade mission with the Prime Minister to Thailand to support this goal. To reach this goal we will also need to continue adding value to what we sell overseas. That is why the Government and the industry have jointly committed $684 million in funding for the Primary Growth Partnership. If successful, these programmes could add around $7 billion per year to our economy by 2025. Almost half of these projects are in the red meat sector, including innovative programmes such as FarmIQ; the new Silere merino meat brand, which was a hit at the America\u2019s Cup; and the marbled grass-fed beef project. Change, of course, does not happen overnight, but Labour did nothing in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c691c061fa749ada978578c4035b5f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That answer is now long enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228985f0afbed84ff4b5b354b01caf05f1\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider his investment of half a million dollars in the Red Meat Sector Strategy and the $350 million of taxpayer and farmer money in Primary Growth Partnership meat projects to be a good investment, given that the Auditor-General is currently investigating each and every one of these projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9e5d7865e404c4885e41c82ec6a4b44\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s figures are inaccurate. They are not correct. The Government is investing just over $161 million in the red meat sector in very important, innovative projects. I am relaxed about the Auditor-General having a look at these projects, because there is very robust auditing already put in place by the Ministry for Primary Industries and external audits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1f64f68a41420f880a1c9488548c47\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister justify his commitment to an $87 million Primary Growth Partnership project with ANZCO Foods, a Japanese company that is so far not accountable for the money spent, when the project to add value to meat carcasses is simply, in the company\u2019s own words, \u201Cbusiness as usual\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2f3472eb5a043ad93ff546585a76230\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I disagree with that. There are robust auditing processes under way. There are quarterly reports. The information is available on the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 website. The member needs to understand that these are long-run projects. These are long-run projects, and we are working very closely with the industry to return more money to the industry and to support our farmers. Labour does not care about our farmers and our rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264dcccc14bb040208970ffe10e7b5193\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an email from the Ministry for Primary Industries apologising once again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c777426d0564d1f9996ecb736652f92\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Just describe the email precisely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd957cd54e8476699d097fc121f340d\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: The email is from the Ministry for Primary Industries, apologising for not being able to deliver on time its obligation to an Official Information Act request for details on these\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d41117007f84c21ac7016a7c1ca0a4f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! And the email is presumably to the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226abb96148de24ce48d3bfd2b9c198e5b\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229893a52830b74b63bed5de5c667bf981\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022973610ab36ef4cfba22d2bdf4620fcf7\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: It is to our\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a74a4808ee8f40a5942ba6504ca7c296\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218150c1f8f9f4dc4b97588359e5105c5\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: It is to our research unit, and it is detailed 18\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf70ab71d73f426eb5f475455d2ae5e6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The easiest way is for me to put the leave. It is over to the House to decide. Leave is sought to table this particular email to the Labour research unit. Is there any objection to it being tabled? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c6873af08049ae9af3cd623d7d09a0\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider the $350 million - plus committed in Primary Growth Partnership meat projects to be making progress when farmers are converting land to dairying with an increasing impact on the environment, and meat carcasses are being exported to China for value-added processing while New Zealand meat workers remain unemployed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260bf98d7f9f34fee845c89de43bcb2e9\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I refute some of those comments from the member. I think he needs to check his facts before he comes into the House, because the China meat market is important to the red meat sector and to our farmers\u2014so is the European Union, and so is the UK. Yes, there are some carcasses going there that are unprocessed, but, importantly, there is a lot of processing and a lot of value-adding that is going on to support Kiwi jobs here. Importantly, what we want to do is see greater returns flow through to farmers, and that is why the member\u2019s party should be supporting the Primary Growth Partnership, water storage projects, and the Trans-Pacific Partnership, but it does not agree with anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e2839f1b4c4a8e9967d1697620c717\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022646501f4c4b643408b10283c6e49b6e4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I will call the member once I can get some decorum from his own side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd6125c46f744525afdb9f3c1789c242\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Given the admission by his colleague the Hon Tim Groser that the Ministry for Primary Industries had inadequately resourced trade into the China market, does he consider the increase in staff from one to three to be sufficient to develop and protect the growing meat trade into China?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd987d596314c6096b9a930d05c22a3\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: The important thing here is that the Ministry for Primary Industries is addressing the issues that came to bear with the certification, and, importantly, resources are increasing in China, from one to three. The resources are also increasing here in Wellington, in the market access team, and we are working across the whole of Government to ensure that we are supporting our exporters getting their products into the Chinese market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab393e2286ba445f885eb5c7cf2a9c70\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Red Meat Sector Strategy Report\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca36cd75e274885a4a383267097e0a8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member can resume his seat. That is something that was sent to all members at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202cd577f4bbd4822beef2ad2c33cf3b0\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Controller and Auditor-General\u2019s annual plan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d92b045581b049c9adb5a08fc3cdc230\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! If it is an older document, it will have been tabled in the House already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe16dda103e4fb2836990a4b83cc3f9\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: It is this year\u2019s document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdbee14d7e9f4133957a20cbe556a515\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It will have been tabled in the House already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022993dc04ec3544f199770743513bde488\u0022\u003ELocal Government Reforms\u2014Financial Reporting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f10c7e2aedfe4433a14fccdc85eef10d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f10c7e2aedfe4433a14fccdc85eef10d\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: How is the Government improving councils\u2019 financial reporting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00229f43d09197ac418b90217b5abbec5fdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f43d09197ac418b90217b5abbec5fdb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Recently I announced the introduction of new financial prudence regulations that will tighten financial reporting, lift transparency, and encourage excellence in local government. The regulations will provide a standardised way of financial reporting, which will encourage council efficiency and improve accountability to ratepayers. In next year\u2019s annual accounts, councils will have to report against a set of benchmarks around three key elements of financial prudence. These are affordability, sustainability, and predictability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e3ac2b57734ab7b1fae92a543a2d4d\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new financial reporting requirements ensure more transparency and encourage excellence in local government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228abb2d36ac884edb85fd4868ccc45576\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Affordability will be measured through rates and debt information; sustainability will be measured through a balanced budget, expenditure on essential services, and debt servicing; and predictability will be measured through cash flow from operations and debt control information. Performance results will be collated in a way that recognises each individual local authority\u2019s situation. I want to see councils measured and benchmarked against each other to help lift performance and to focus on excellence. These regulations are part of the Better Local Government reform programme, and are part of the Government\u2019s commitment to delivering better services within tight financial constraints.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002224cd01f93b554a9fa9a3430ab3982b96\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations\u2014Legislative Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00229aacd8fdd43a46bc8d76929f4127f61b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aacd8fdd43a46bc8d76929f4127f61b\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CI am especially keen to hear what affected parties have to say on the Part 6A proposals in the Bill, and will carefully consider their submissions and the recommendations of the select committee\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002241a68437028f41b2b9a1bf04a74f317c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241a68437028f41b2b9a1bf04a74f317c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f33e23009b2c4d75b615dc6e1d823bd7\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Can the workers at Hillmorton Hospital in Christchurch be confident that he has listened to their concerns given that their lives have already been turned upside down by the earthquakes and they are now sick with worry that his changes to Part 6A of the Employment Relations Act will mean they have no job security?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1deb9dcd0a947b0b819af531fd128b5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: In all seriousness, they can be confident that I am listening and taking this very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022340e7328c5a4414a9e0cdebb72c5b9a3\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Will he carefully consider the submissions of school cleaners, who told the select committee that enabling smaller, cheaper companies to clean in schools will drive down the quality of cleaning, thus putting our kids at risk of unnecessary infections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea1ce1d982f4ad486a1e9a24b446ec9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: It will not be possible, as the member knows, for me to read every single submission. There have been a lot. But, as she knows, I have met with a number of people, including the Service and Food Workers Union, despite harsh criticism from Whale Oil for doing that. I am taking this issue very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959981b9a5e944f7adbb1e394f6faf41\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Given his commitment to carefully consider their recommendations, where the submissions on the bill from both employers and workers overwhelmingly oppose elements of his Part 6A changes, will he change them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263504dfb6e014b6797dac4f2cd6cd05b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Also, as the member knows, this is a very complex issue. Really, there have been submissions going every way on every part of Part 6A. I have confidence that David Bennett and the team on that select committee will do a very good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240d6800ade03442ea6fbe9c57117f49e\u0022\u003EMedicines Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bb8cd4b43dd4db3aa5b6f756033dbe2\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000615\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00227c5b36a0f95d4c40935cf6e1bcc27d7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c5b36a0f95d4c40935cf6e1bcc27d7c\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to continue the debate on the Medicines Amendment Bill. This bill is long overdue. On\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42c3393f31546dabb7e743f17224032\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I just ask members who are leaving the Chamber to try to do it as quietly as possible to allow the member speaking to have a reasonably fair go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959546016bcc4ff6b592dc9e59e35b4b\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. On this side of the House, we lament the time that it has actually taken to get the bill to this stage. We are pleased to see that it has come to the House under urgency, but we wonder why it never ever appeared prior to that. We are all aware that the bill is an interim measure until the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Agency is established, when we will act in a joint way with Australia on these matters. It was interesting at the Health Committee that the submitters all generally supported the new regime proposed and the new definitions, even though it did take some time for us all to get our heads around the definitions and to feel quite comfortable with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe were pleased to see that this bill uses the skills of the nurse practitioners and they can be more widely used. We know that nurse practitioners provide a valuable service that an increasing number of people depend on, and this is particularly evident in rural areas. Again, we know that pharmacists are now included in this regime, and we are pleased to see the skills of pharmacists used. They are a highly skilled group of people, and in every town people are very comfortable going into their local pharmacy to actually ask for advice. That is the first port of call before we go to the doctor these days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ESo, just to quickly sum up, New Zealand First supports the passing of this bill. It allows for greater flexibility where medicine and health changes are happening at an incredible rate. We believe it is in the interests of the health outcomes of all New Zealanders to keep up with the changes that are happening overseas, and we believe that this should be a priority for the Government. Given that we are seeking to increase the flexibility of our health system and to make it more accessible to every New Zealander, we support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e9afef2e31c4282adca4d52ac34f5fa\u0022\u003EImmigration Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1c072f3d4374b3499993441d9ca8bba\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002280245e2b803648979ede194da51790c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280245e2b803648979ede194da51790c3\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time. I nominate the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to consider the bill. The integrity of our immigration system is vital for the well-being of New Zealand, and this bill further ensures that our immigration system protects our borders, is responsive to the use of electronic systems, protects migrant workers from exploitation, and gives immigration officers the power they need to enforce the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe bill extends the powers of immigration officers to enable them to undertake a personal search at the border, search a property or place for identity documents in order to facilitate a deportation or turn-round, and enter and search an employer\u2019s premises in order to search for unlawful workers, check documents, and interview employees to ascertain whether the employees and the employer are complying with the Act. It will also enable immigration officers to apply for and execute a search warrant. Currently immigration officers apply to the court for a warrant, and a police officer executes the warrant on their behalf. This amendment will result in more timely compliance operations and contribute to the effective functioning of the immigration system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe bill includes two amendments that will protect migrant workers from exploitation. They are part of a package of actions that this Government is taking to address the exploitation of migrants. They demonstrate that this Government is taking the issue seriously and will come down hard on employers who take advantage of vulnerable workers. We see this as very important, particularly in the context of the rebuild of Canterbury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe first measure is to make exploitation of migrants on temporary entry class visas with work conditions an offence. There is presently an inconsistency in the legislation in that employers who exploit unlawful migrant workers can face hefty sanctions, whereas those who exploit lawful migrant workers face much less serious penalties. The bill will address that mismatch by adding the exploitation of lawful workers as an offence under the Act. Employers who exploit migrant workers on temporary visas could face up to 7 years\u2019 imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $100,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe second amendment will see employers who are themselves recent migrants and who have a residence class visa for less than 10 years liable for deportation if they exploit migrant workers. This will act as a further deterrent, and was a provision in the 1987 Act, but was not carried over when the Act was updated in 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAlthough changes to the law are important elements in improving protection for migrant workers, the most important factor in achieving that is for exploited workers themselves to speak up. I want to take this opportunity to encourage those workers to do so in order that a brighter light can be shone on the practices of exploitative employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe bill changes the way biometric information is collected to address gaps in identity management capability, which will enable faster identification and improve the Government\u2019s ability to manage risk. These amendments will enable biometric information to be collected from persons already known to be liable for deportation or turn-round, enable a compulsion order to be sought to require a person to allow their biometric information to be taken where that person is liable for deportation, and, where a compulsion order is made, enable police to use reasonable force to take the biometric information. It will also enable biometric information to be collected from non-citizens arriving in New Zealand, either before or after they have been granted entry permission and while they are still within the immigration control area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe bill will help ensure that the Act has the ability to support the increased use of technology when the new Immigration Service delivery model is in place. These amendments will help provide a more efficient, modern, and cost-effective service to our customers and other stakeholders. It makes changes to the way information on the passenger name record is provided, in order to improve the identification of travellers who may pose a risk or require further intervention and to improve airline compliance with immigration law\u2014compliance that I am very confident is in excellent shape. Certainly after revelations this week and my checks, I am even more confident, but it is important to continue to improve airline compliance. These changes specify that passenger name information can be accessed by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment at specified times without having to make a formal request each time, and that the information can be accessed for longer than the current 14-day period before and after the arrival of an aircraft. The information will be able to be used to identify patterns and trends, which will help recognise and detect risks, leading to better-protected borders and a safer New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe bill clarifies that the ability to request personal information under the Privacy Act 1993 does not apply to reasons for decisions made using absolute discretion. That parallels the existing exclusion under the Official Information Act and also includes a number of other miscellaneous provisions, mostly of a minor or technical nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI am confident that when this bill is passed, it will build on the strong immigration legislative framework already in place. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022521d6dd10b97436f91c2867f9576af01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022521d6dd10b97436f91c2867f9576af01\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on this bill, the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), and to indicate to the Minister of Immigration that Labour will support this bill\u2019s referral to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee because it does address a number of shortcomings that have been exposed in the immigration system\u2014in particular, the exploitation by employers of immigrants and those who are here on short-term permits with work rights. So there is good reason to support it, which we will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ELabour wants to see a robust and effective immigration system because we as a country have become very reliant on immigration to a significant extent to meet our own national developmental aspirations. We would not have, for example, a growing population without immigration, because if the number of New Zealanders permanently going abroad continued without being offset by the number of incoming migrants, then, indeed, our population would be depleted and would certainly be on a downward trend, because our fertility rates are not good enough for replacement. Our trading partners are also significant contributors to our immigration numbers, so there is a lovely coming together of mutual interests. That has created very powerful diasporas in this country, in New Zealand, of those countries with which we trade and with which we will have an increasing relationship, particularly from North, central, and South-east Asia. That applies also to our trade and tourism targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EHowever, we have to record that we have not yet thought through in any detailed way how we might effectively capitalise on those diasporas. Development in this area is crying out for some serious attention, and a good, robust immigration system would do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EFurthermore, when we reflect on the Government\u2019s intention to double the value of our export education sector, which is currently assessed at $2.6 billion over the next 12 years or so, our immigration system takes on an even greater significance. That is because the export education pathway is becoming a pathway to residency for a growing proportion of people and for a growing number of those who come here initially on student visas. The education pathway also has a significant impact on our labour markets because of work rights that are granted to overseas students. So we could well ask, in the context of the importance of immigration, how good our current immigration system is, whether it is well placed to meet the future challenges that are coming up, and whether all aspects of the 2009 Immigration Act are fit for purpose or not. But that broader question must await another debate at another time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) attempts to keep the 2009 system fit for purpose by proposing a number of amendments. Some are technical in nature, as the Minister has said, and others correct minor inconsistencies. Those are not of concern to us. However, there are a number of amendments included in this bill that are serious and that will require intensive scrutiny at the select committee. As I said earlier, the proposals that have attracted the most attention to date relate to the exploitation of workers by employers. Stories of students who are being exploited in the labour market are now legendary and have been around for some time, for several years. It is a credit to the union movement and union advocates for exposing these and for being available to those exploited migrant workers that this matter has now reached this point and come to Parliament for it to be fixed up. So despite what people from both sides might say about unions, here is an example of how if it were not for unions advocating for this group, we would not be debating these particular provisions today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe bill increases, as the Minister said, search powers for immigration officers, including the ability to enter premises and search for unlawful workers, as well as to examine employers\u2019 records for their compliance with new employment law and the Immigration Act\u2014all useful provisions. However, as other speakers on this side will raise, what are the checks and balances that those provisions are being appropriately used? These amendments will address the working conditions of workers who might be being exploited. However, it is doubtful that the provisions will address some of the rorts that are reported to us confidentially around false job offers. My colleague Darien Fenton will have much more to say about this aspect of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EOne of the changes is reintroducing the ability to deport residence class visa holders who are employers and who have been here for less than 10 years. I assume that there are very good reasons as to why that provision was not included in the 2009 bill, so I would like to know\u2014and the select committee will want to know\u2014why it is being reintroduced now. I am not really arguing against myself here, but I do wonder at what point a resident becomes a New Zealander. Here is a benchmark: 10 years. So we will now have two classes of people on residence class visas: those who have been here 10 years or less and who are subject to a particular set of standards, and those who have been here longer than 10 years and who are not held to the same set of standards and therefore have more rights, if you like. Without in any way wanting to be supporting the illegal activities of the migrant employers themselves, there seems to be an inconsistency here that needs to be addressed. That is one provision that we would have some difficulty with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EAlso, there are some retrospective sanctions here, where if a person on a residence visa has committed an offence in the past 5 years and is exposed, they will now be caught\u2014so this is retrospective. We would need to ask whether a retrospective legislation is a fair one. Again, I am not defending at all the activities of those who have offended in the past 5 years, but why do we not start clean and say that from now on these will be the expectations? I look forward to hearing those arguments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe other major inclusion here relates to the migrant levy. We believe it is a major change. It has been changed to an immigration levy, and its purpose is significantly altered. In the current Immigration Act 2009, the purpose of the migrant levy is to assist the successful settlement of migrants and to carry out research. But in this bill, those provisions are extended quite considerably. The newly named immigration levy is to support \u201Cthe infrastructure required for, and the operation of, the immigration system, \u2026 for the following purposes: (i) establishing and verifying the identity of persons: (ii) managing risk to the integrity of the immigration system: (iii) managing immigration risk \u2026 (iv) managing compliance \u2026\u201D, and, indeed, to attract migrant students and fund the Immigration Advisers Licensing Authority. That is quite a major change, and I want to hear some arguments about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe notion of absolute discretion of the Immigration Service, which is being protected here, is one that we are concerned about. It is not as if it has been a good week for the Immigration Service. We see what researchers are telling us about the rorts that are going on with people who are paying for job offers. In the present system, students after qualifying must get a job in management. That is a big step, researchers tell us, and it is resulting in exploitation. Today there is a secret immigration blacklist that exists within the Immigration Service\u2014185 lawyers and immigration advisers are on a blacklist within this service\u2014yet we want to give this service greater discretion. It has not earned it, and we want to know about the protections against some of the difficulties that have come up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Immigration, Michael Woodhouse, talked about Canterbury, where there is now, already, discussion about the rorts in respect of the Filipino workers coming through. It is almost like bonded labour, where Filipino workers have to pay a big price to middle people to come here. The Minister\u2019s comment, as reported, is that \u201Cit is very difficult for me as the Minister of Immigration to control that.\u201D But, indeed, we must control that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe immigration system should be a robust one. We will want to make sure that the changes made in this bill do provide for a robust service. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002205b0ba63ac644963a061efcf5a50eefe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205b0ba63ac644963a061efcf5a50eefe\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to join in support of this bill, the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). I just want to thank the previous speaker, Rajen Prasad, for his support from the Labour Party for this going to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. The 10-year rule is a general rule within immigration policy. If you commit a serious offence within that period of time, you can be deported. I think it is just carrying that forward into the employment realm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI would just like to thank the Minister of Immigration for his special interest in this area. As new migrants to New Zealand, many people face a lot of challenges, and one of those is employment. Making sure that we have rules and regulations that give those people the most protection when they are in a vulnerable state is a very important thing. This Minister has taken a particular interest in that and has worked hard to deliver this result, which will look after new migrants going into work and protect their rights, so I would like to thank him for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI also note that we have the New Zealand First leader, Winston Peters, here. I am sure he is going to get up and take the New Zealand First call and it will be another attack on people coming to New Zealand to make a better future for themselves. That is sad. We want an open and free country that has the best environment for people to make the best of their opportunities. To use these kinds of bills as a political stunt to try to attack people in vulnerable positions is something that you would expect of New Zealand First. We are soon to see it in the next half an hour, I am sure. It is a very sad approach when a politician has to stoop to those levels to try to get some publicity. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbc9ecc5565e42919b25fda3a6209b64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbc9ecc5565e42919b25fda3a6209b64\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call Darien Fenton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb1fe50945e548df8297468f8d7622d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on, Darien. Give me a break here. He attacked me, you know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00224533db9e913645538bfadfddcae88f5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224533db9e913645538bfadfddcae88f5f\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Take a point of order, Winston. Take a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea966fa948294c77b46b0bed2bc7b4a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sure I could indulge my colleague from the Labour Party and say look, seeing as I was the subject of that very unwarranted attack\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d4e76ed91ea46b68585743eb0837fe0\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is not a point of order. The member will get a call in due course to deal with those matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb61a8558dc4472d8839b13df9114ade\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to support this Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) at the first reading for it to go the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. I am also pleased to see the actions of the Government attempting to deal with the growing issue of migrant worker abuse. I am yet to be convinced that the bill does everything that it needs. I will talk to that a little bit more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe are seeing things in New Zealand that we have never seen before with migrant worker abuse, particularly where I live, in Auckland. Many MPs will have had migrants come to see them to talk about what has happened to them. I was an MP who had the workers from the Indian restaurant chain Masala come to see me. Their stories were horrific. They were being required to live on the premises. They basically had their jobs sold to them for something like $10,000. It turned out they were being paid something like $4 an hour, a minimal wage. I am pleased to say I went to see the Minister\u2014it was not the Minister of Immigration; it was Simon Bridges, Minister of Labour. I reported that fact to him as the Minister of Labour, and then there was an investigation. I have also had an update from the labour inspectors in Auckland on that particular case. What they tell me\u2014and I know they are working hard on it\u2014is that it is really, really hard to get the information to get the prosecution happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAlthough it sounds straightforward, it can be very complicated. It goes to the records that the business is keeping, whether they are accurate or not, or whether they are phoney, as that can happen. It also goes to having migrants who are prepared to speak out. On the one hand I agree with the Minister of Immigration that we need migrants to stand up and speak out when they are being exploited in this way, but on the other hand I think it has to go hand in hand with really good inspection powers both of Immigration New Zealand and of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. I have repeatedly said that I do not believe that there are enough labour inspectors. There are not enough to deal with the health and safety issues we have got, let alone the issue of migrant worker abuse. What it really needs is a team of people who go from place to place and inspect the wage and time records, like they used to\u2014labour inspectors used to do that\u2014and talk to the people on the ground and just dig out these cases, rather than waiting for poor migrants to stand up and say: \u201CI am being exploited.\u201D, because the difficulties that they face are enormous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EJob selling is something that we have never seen in New Zealand until recently. It is an abhorrent and disgusting practice where people who are desperate for work because their visas depend on it, they want to stay here, and they also want to support and feed their families are absolutely exploited by people who sell them their jobs. So they are told: \u201CI will get you a job and if you pay $10,000 or $20,000 you can have this job. But you do not get paid.\u201D Actually, they pay for their own job. We have seen a lot of that. We have seen it. I think my colleague Rajen Prasad talked about the student visa issue. There are issues with students who are able to work 20 hours a week. There are also issues with the graduate visa programme where if people want to use the graduate visa programme to work towards residency, they have to have a management job. So we have got managers in Burger King, in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269f45ff40229491fa37550505c366172\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Shift workers. Shift supervisors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022018b655789794278b914587f1043f2af\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Shift supervisors? No, they are managers. They are managers cleaning motels, but they are called managers so that they meet the visa requirements in terms of working towards residency, and that is just simply another form of exploitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI want to emphasise that one of the questions that we will be asking a lot about during the select committee consideration on this bill is resourcing. I am looking forward to hearing from migrant groups. I think it will be very instructive for the select committee to hear from migrants themselves. Sometimes they will be represented by migrant organisations. So I suspect the Migrant Action Trust will have a lot to say, and also Dennis Maga\u2019s organisation, Migrante Aotearoa New Zealand, which is called something else now, is it not\u2014Union Network of Migrants. He is a really good advocate for migrants in New Zealand. He is constantly speaking out and can speak not only from his own experience but also from the experience of the people whom he has represented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI think there are some issues around employment law, and when I spoke to Simon Bridges about the Masala situation he indicated to me that there was going to be a package. The Minister of Immigration, Michael Woodhouse, said just before that this is a package of measures. I have no idea what the other parts of the package are and it would be good to have some indication of that as we go through this. What it does need is some changes to labour law. It needs strengthening around that. Unfortunately\u2014I have to say it\u2014we are not seeing changes to labour law going in the right way to provide protection and make it easier for migrant workers. The changes are going backwards. It was very pleasing to hear the Minister of Labour today assure me that he is listening and taking into consideration submissions around proposed changes to Part 6A of the Employment Relations Act, because, in fact, it is mainly migrant workers who end up in low-paid cleaners jobs. Those are the ones who are most vulnerable to exploitation. It is another form of exploitation if their jobs can be sold to the lowest bidder, and they are dumped on the scrap heap with no redundancy pay and nowhere to go. A package would include actually not changing the Employment Relations Act in the way that the Minister is proposing. It would include actually strengthening it and making it easier for migrant workers to access their rights, and would also look at things like the Wages Protection Act and prosecutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I have been told by migrant advocates is that it is very hard. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment can prosecute, and it is hard enough for it, but migrant advocates have migrant workers who come to them who have clearly been exploited and the employer has clearly broken the law, and trying to take that through a court case is incredibly difficult, particularly where the employers themselves are new migrants and have set up a business. There are all sorts of veils\u2014corporate veils and other things\u2014that cannot be unravelled. So although migrant workers often win a court case that exposes the breaches of employment law that they have been subjected to, they cannot get any enforcement. The remedies are just simply impossible to obtain because the business disappears, it does not have any money, or it is hidden somewhere. There needs to be some consideration, I think, given to the Wages Protection Act whereby we are able to prosecute not just employers but individuals. I think, again, we will hear from lawyers who represent migrant workers in their situations, and I know that they are quite strong on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe do need to take this very seriously with the Christchurch rebuild as well. We have heard stories, of course, already, and the last thing I heard was that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment was investigating 12 breaches in respect of migrant workers who have come to New Zealand and Christchurch. Again, I do not think that it is resourced to do the job that needs to be done, given that we are going to have 17,000 migrants in the Christchurch rebuild and about four inspectors and have immigration offices that are actually not going to have people in them. They are going to be an online presence, rather than enforcement. I think we do have to consider very seriously how we make this happen. If we are serious about stopping migrant worker abuse, we have to think about how we help make it happen, rather than simply sitting back and expecting migrants to come forward. I look forward to the discussion on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe only other thing that I would say about this bill is that there are some things in it that seem to have come from the 2009 Act. They seem to have been left over and were maybe rejected at the time. We will be looking very closely at those, and I am sure that we will have as much interest in those issues as we did in the Immigration Act 2009 when it was passed, actually under Labour, and when we went through a very extensive select committee process. But, as I said, I am pleased to support this bill. We will closely scrutinise it. It is good that the Government has taken some steps to deal with this very serious issue, which could get completely out of control if we do not do something soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00228bc61e6172ea4c25b13f9574b2a9497f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bc61e6172ea4c25b13f9574b2a9497f\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will support the referral of Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. There are aspects of this bill that are critically important in concept, and we are very keen to explore the detail of them to ensure that they deliver for the people who need protection. There are other aspects of this bill that give us cause for concern, and we look forward to also rigorously investigating them to ensure that they provide New Zealand with the solutions in immigration that we need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe primary purpose and the flagship of this bill is making the exploitation of migrants on a temporary entry visa with work conditions an offence and making the employer liable for deportation. Previously, these sections covered only unlawful workers. It will enable employers who exploit workers to be liable for a sentence of up to 7 years in prison and/or a fine of up to $100,000, and, as mentioned earlier, it opens them up to possible deportation. It is really important to increase penalties. At least one of the reasons for needing to increase them is that up until now the penalties have often been less than the benefits of the exploitation, and that is clearly not going to change the culture. Over the last few years we have heard of an increasing number of examples of the exploitation of migrant workers, and I want to specifically thank FIRST Union for its fine advocacy on this issue and bringing it to the attention of all of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe all lose when workers are exploited. In a case publicised last week, an Auckland-based Korean food preparation factory is alleged to have exploited migrant workers with 16-hour working days, few or no breaks, below minimum wages, and no employment contracts. A spokesperson for the Union Network of Migrants, Dennis Maga, has noted that this bill \u201C\u2026 needs to be passed as soon as possible because migrants working on the Christchurch rebuild are being ill-treated.\u201D As my Labour colleague Darien Fenton has mentioned, there are 12 investigations under way, but only four inspectors for what is expected to be 17,000 migrant workers. We need to make sure that we have a system in place to protect our local economies and protect those workers from exploitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere have been cases that the FIRST Union has mentioned of employees signing agreements in the Philippines, yet when they arrive in New Zealand that contract and agreement has been changed, and it knows of workers whose local employer is threatening to send them home if they do not work during the weekend without pay. That is not good for our international reputation, that is not good for vulnerable people, and that is not going to be good for the quality of the work on the rebuild in Christchurch, either. Migrant workers, and especially temporary migrant workers, are vulnerable. Often they have limited knowledge of their rights. Sometimes they find it difficult to communicate and feel that their ability to speak up is constrained because they feel, quite rightly, that their immigration status may be at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere has been reporting where a migrant worker himself has described some of what he has seen happening up in Auckland. He talked about how when migrants arrive here to work, for them work is their top priority because it will enable them to survive. But, unfortunately, as many of us know, decent and well-paid jobs can be pretty hard to find, no matter how keen or qualified someone is. Desperate migrants try to save money as hard as they can. Sometimes we have heard about people being sold jobs before they start, which is a very deep form of exploitation. We have also heard stories of people being moved into sheds or garages in cramped, cold conditions, basically as a provision of their conditions of work, and sometimes the money comes off the wages to pay for what are incredibly substandard conditions. There are also stories of people being asked to pay exorbitant rates for those same below-standard conditions. Then we have also heard of people being paid between $4 and $10 an hour, without breaks and without their legal entitlements. As a Parliament, we really, clearly need to address these problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do want to, via this bill, point out a few of the concerns that have been raised by the people who are desperate for it to be implemented, and I hope that we can have a discussion around that within the select committee. The FIRST Union has suggested that we also need to have stronger requirements on employers at the point of accreditation and tougher penalties for bad practice. This bill delivers on the tougher penalties, but I have not seen the point around accreditation. The union has also raised the point\u2014again, raised by Labour\u2014about the need for more labour inspectors, up from the very low levels that we have currently, because if we are going to ensure that the system that we put in place is able to work, we need to have the people out there making it work and checking for people. The union also said that funding support to local community centres and organisations providing induction for new migrants needs to be strengthened, and many of these groups are currently struggling. That is something that we also would endorse, and I think it would be better for the long-term well-being of our communities, as well as for the migrants. It ensures that New Zealand gets the most out of the involvement of the people in our community. We can encourage them to stay and contribute, rather than have a terrible experience, leave, and go somewhere else to add their labour to those communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAlso, and possibly most important, the Union Network of Migrants has raised concerns that if a migrant worker speaks out about abuse and leaves that exploitative job, they will lose the work visa that is tied to that job. This is clearly a very significant barrier to those workers being able to get justice and be treated fairly. A visitor visa does not give them the ability to earn, and this risks workers going underground into unlawful work in order to survive. What the union has been recommending is that an open visa should be given, allowing affected migrants to find alternative work while their cases are being heard. It seems to me that that is the least we could do if we have not managed to protect them from that exploitation in the first place. This is clearly a very important area of work. We would like to offer our thanks to the Minister of Immigration for bringing it to this House and look forward to properly discussing it and working out the best solution for our communities and those workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI would just like to mention briefly some of the other aspects of this bill that we see as not necessarily being an essential part of that policy platform and that raise concerns for us. This bill gives immigration officers the power to undertake personal and property searches, including employees\u2019 premises, but is not specifically related to that aspect of their work, at all. We would need to see evidence that immigration officers are unable to do their job properly at the moment without these extended powers. We have not seen evidence of that, and we are very reluctant to see what is traditionally the work of our police force extended any more than it absolutely has to be. We also have concerns around privacy in relation to the extension of the collection of biometric information, which is to be gathered for identity management. There is some lack of clarity around the purpose and extent of that, which we would be keen to investigate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe are very clearly in opposition to what has been put in as an aspect in this bill in reiterating that requests for personal information under the Privacy Act will not apply to the reasons for decisions made using absolute discretion. We oppose that policy. We believe that people have a right to information and that the best systems are challengeable systems, and we will encourage the Government to take that approach. Thanks to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a92ec4d1a13a4c30bae4fde4e40d698e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a92ec4d1a13a4c30bae4fde4e40d698e\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I support the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00227c2ba8c3fd154613a9eb43cb57f29153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c2ba8c3fd154613a9eb43cb57f29153\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E First of all I want to address Mr Bennett, who got up and attacked me. I know that Mr Bennett has a love of Russians. I know that he has a love of Russians. A lot of us do, but it is no reason to predicate our immigration policy. The second thing I want to say is that this Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) purports to be robust. It talks about clarifying the existing Immigration Act and ensuring the integrity of the immigration system. The Minister of Immigration said that this bill will be strong support for the immigration framework already in place. I would like to know what planet his colleagues are on, and what planet he is on, because there is no evidence whatsoever to back up these fine words. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOnce again we are in the land of \u201CThings are going to get better, because the National Party says so\u201D. It has had 5 years to sort out a sensible immigration policy. Today, the immigration department is a corrupt mess. Very shortly I will name some of the things that back up that claim, with evidence. Just the other day the Minister was asked how people get into this country and what is going on, and he called it a heinous lie. Then, 5 minutes later, he was out talking to the media and saying: \u201COh, well, we\u2019ve got 30 cases of people getting here, ripping up their passports\u2014but they didn\u2019t come from Lebanon.\u201D What would that have to do with the price of fish? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba63c25c54d349f39dd557d08eb6889a\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s only half of what was going on when this member was supporting Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07b501fea434ea793ab0f6b7693f22e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: If he had studied the programme properly, he would have known that it was not restricted to those people. No, no, no\u2014do not come here with your untrained Dunedin mind, and think that you can give a shallow once-over to this very complex problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt is all window dressing. It is camouflage. What we need is not this bill, but a full-scale, independent inquiry. We have the United Nations every year talking about people trafficking to New Zealand. The Minister denies it. So do all his colleagues. We know that women are used as sex slaves in this country. He denies it. So do his colleagues. We know that, for example, people are working in slave labour conditions 16 hours a day, in substandard conditions. He has denied it. So have his colleagues. What we want is a full-scale investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIn 2008 the Auditor-General set up an inquiry under Helen Clark, reporting in 2009. I want to say that it said this: \u201CWe recommend that the Department of Labour \u2026 review the emphasis on target setting in Immigration New Zealand branches to ensure that the quality of visa and permit decisions is not compromised.\u201D Did those members do anything about it? They did nothing whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e755634d554343acbd2b33fb4e9a5e36\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272616cc7e786487490bf459f7bd07f68\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CDone\u201D, my big toe! Just lately there has been an internal report that says 20 percent of the decisions made by Immigration New Zealand are of poor quality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2665b46c28443d8830ae596a5101e3b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Used to be 40.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022263e356b70474efeadc3de0d0f29283f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What does this Minister do? Do you know what he just said? He said that it used to be 40 percent. He is just excusing his total incompetence of at least one in five\u201420 percent\u2014and his excuse is that it used to be 40 percent. Minister, you should be fired. You are incompetent. You do not know what you are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI want to say this too. I refer to the report of the Office of the Auditor-General of May 2009, Inquiry Into Immigration Matters. This is what it said, on page 49 of its investigation and review of Project Crusade: \u201CThe Department told us that the managers involved were held accountable for not adhering to the expected quality standards.\u201D That is an utter lie. I will tell you why. I will just name you a number of people, five in particular, who were part of that investigation, and this is what happened to them. Team manager Sarah Clifford, undertaking Project Crusade, was promoted to branch manager. She still continues to derive huge financial benefits in various roles in Immigration New Zealand. There is the first person. Then there is Ross Grigg, at that time regional manager, who has recently been promoted to area manager in the Waikato. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhere is the accountability going on in this organisation? All the people who have been fingered by the inquiry are now getting\u2014not demoted, not held to account, no\u2014promoted. Team manager Kate Woodwards is still in the Christchurch branch, and was recently presented with an award for her work. She was presented with an award for her work. What a joke. Immigration officer Dominic Ford was responsible for approving bulk visas. He has recently been promoted to assistant area manager in Shanghai, with full diplomatic allowances worth $200,000 per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhat is going on in your corrupt department, Minister? Do you not know? Branch manager Rex Heesterman was responsible for visa approvals in the Palmerston North branch as part of Project Crusade. That was the branch they called the visa factory. It was just stamping them left, right, and centre. There was no examination\u2014just get the numbers up. Again, Rex Heesterman has been promoted to an area manager role in Tonga as recently as July 2013. Where is the accountability? The Minister comes with this bill. He says that it is going to strengthen an already effective department. What a ministerial joke. Is that the best they can do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EListen to this. These five promotions are a clear example of institutionalised corruption within the department. The Office of the Auditor-General has a look and says that it is all going wrong. It gets told: \u201COh no, they\u2019ll all be held to account.\u201D They were not, were they? Oh no, they were not. This goes on and on and on. This department continues to abuse taxpayers\u2019 funds by creating unnecessary diplomatic seconds, with very generous allowances and salaries, in places like Shanghai, Pretoria, Beijing, and even Viet Nam. The department has recently appointed numerous managers in the Shanghai branch. These are the jobs that thousands of candidates would be willing to do on a locally engaged basis. Shanghai is obviously not such a Third World place that Immigration New Zealand could not attract candidates from New Zealand on a locally engaged basis. This is an utter and blatant example of abuse of taxpayers\u2019 funds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut it does not stop there. Recently, the Minister went to a big function in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b006b11f0bf435a86dfff1f2d750a4e\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: How many New Zealanders worked in diplomatic offices when you were the Minister of Foreign Affairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f6ef1ebdb147a19c403664665a51b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I was never the Minister of Immigration, son\u2014I was far more powerful than that. I was Deputy Prime Minister. I was the Treasurer. I was the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I was never as lowly as the Minister of Immigration. But I think that next time I might take that job and fix it up. I could do it in 6 months flat\u2014I could do it in 6 months flat. The first thing I would do is get rid of people who think like that Minister over there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut here we go. Immigration New Zealand had a recent eating and drinking - fest conference in Wellington for all offshore and onshore managers. The Minister of Immigration himself\u2014this man over here, Woodhouse\u2014attended the conference. More than 30 Immigration New Zealand offshore managers were flown to New Zealand on taxpayer funds. More than 30 were flown in on taxpayer funds. Who is paying for such lavish abuse of taxpayers\u2019 funds? Has the Minister not heard of videoconferences? Why fly all these people in and then go along and lavishly live and stay in the hotels? The Minister comes along and it is all hunky-dory. I thought he was supposed to be from the party that believes in accountability and efficiency. It is just one scandal after the other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOf course, the worst thing was that earlier this year he was asked how many overstayers there are in New Zealand. He said there were not 14, not 1,400, but that there were 14,000 overstayers in New Zealand. He dismissed that with a contemptuous view so renowned of some accountants. He said it was a low number\u201414,000 to him is a low number. Well, I do not know anywhere in Asia where you would find such incompetence in the immigration department. I do not know of anywhere\u2014in fact, in all of the Pacific\u2014where you would find such incompetence in an immigration department. But the other day he was told by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation\u2019s Four Corners programme that there is a whole lot of smuggling going on , and all the way to New Zealand. No, the Minister bounced into the House\u2014straight up, no evidence, no facts, and no research\u2014and he called it a heinous lie. Then outside, he gets caught by the media and he says: \u201CWell, I\u2019ll have to investigate that. I\u2019ll have to investigate that.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EYou see, he said it was a lie, but here is the real point. When I asked the Minister whether he would resign if he was wrong, all we heard was not a syllable, not a sound, not a mutter, not a murmur, not a squeak. He said: \u201COh no, no. I won\u2019t resign if I\u2019m found to be what I know I am.\u201D Incompetent. If he had any courage or conviction he would have said: \u201CYes, I\u2019ll resign. I\u2019ve told the Parliament it\u2019s a heinous lie. If I\u2019m wrong, I will resign.\u201D Minister, save us all the trouble and resign now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022 data-id=\u0022e219578a4e224c5eb1f6aaedb09d58f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e219578a4e224c5eb1f6aaedb09d58f3\u0022\u003EMIKE SABIN (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, seems to apply the standard of resignation to everyone else in this House. If he was to apply that standard to himself, that member should have resigned about 15 times over, but what he does instead is that he actually takes a Government down to avoid his own resignation. This is another good example of the xenophobic brand of New Zealand First, and absolutely nothing to do with this bill, the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EHe wants an independent inquiry. What that actually translates to when we put that through the \u201Ccomplicator\u201D is that he wants an independent media platform so that he can try to stand up to get a few cheap media shots away, because he has been finding that he has been struggling to get some time on air, with the old Green Party talking about their recent agenda and so forth. So he is trying to squeeze himself in to get a bit of time on air. He has done it time and time again, but, interestingly enough, I looked around this House while the member was puffing out his chest and hot air was emerging forth, and no one in this House was paying any attention whatsoever other than the Minister of Immigration, at whom the allegations have been levelled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022721a14ca-e9d5-4c2e-b3ef-03d03e4fea07\u0022\u003EWhat Winston Peters is going on about here is the equivalent of when a Nigerian prince emails us all to tell us we have got $100,000 sitting in a bank account because we are lucky enough to have won a lottery. That member, Winston Peters, would be the first to say: \u201CLook at this! Look at this! There\u2019s $100 million in the account.\u201D It must be true because the liars, the vagabonds, and the people smugglers are apparently the people Winston Peters listens to and wants to get a media beat-up over. Why is it that the Minister has to prove that that is not true, although Mr Peters does not have to prove it is true? If he had any clout, if he would put his money where his mouth is, that is what he would do. But he will not. He will not because he cannot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022767e13978f2547019357d96d580bca2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022767e13978f2547019357d96d580bca2b\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that this is to be a split call. Andrew\u2014Andrew Little, 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c011d9aabd174023b5cd4f20f3356270\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c011d9aabd174023b5cd4f20f3356270\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is one of those days when it is easy to forget even some of those who make a good contribution in the House. On that note I just want to make this comment about the honourable member who spoke last, Mike Sabin. The Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) follows on from one we had earlier this year about immigration. I recall the debates about that bill, which was all about people-smuggling and the vast hordes of armies of people ready to be hoovered up and brought down here, people who are sailing across the Tasman. It was the Government and its members who were saying that this was a real threat and that those people-smugglers had those potential refugees on the horizon ready to come down, sweep down from parts hither and thither, and flood the nation with otherwise unmeritorious claims for refugee status. It was the members of the Opposition who were saying: \u201CThis doesn\u2019t sound right to us. Where is the evidence?\u201D. I am pleased to see, however, that the Government, now having seen the evidence, which is a grainy recording of an alleged people-smuggler somewhere in Australia saying that there are people ready to come down here, treats it with the scant regard we gave it at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill makes some important modifications. It is worthy of examination by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and for that reason we are supporting it. But I just want to sound this note of caution as we go into that process, that scrutiny process, and just say that there are some aspects that cause us concern. It goes back to that hoary old chestnut that seems to apply to so many pieces of legislation from this Government, where basic human rights and citizen rights are ridden roughshod over. We can justify those things with all sorts of claims to nationalism, saying that those people are a scourge and that local people will be affronted and affected by it. But the reality is that, like it or not\u2014and irrespective of the origins of people, how they sometimes get here, and the nefarious means by which they travel here\u2014they are people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I look with alarm at clauses like clause 33, which creates a new section 111 in the Immigration Act that allows the taking of biometric samples and information irrespective of the status of the immigration application. In fact, the application could be declined and, under this amendment to the legislation, the unsuccessful applicant would still be obliged to provide that information. Regardless of all the assurances that we have had in the last 18 months or 2 years about how much work is being done to secure the information systems and the databases of the Government, the reality is that they are not secure. People are being required to give evermore personal, important, and intimate pieces of information about themselves, and we have no assurance about the security of that information. Nor do we have any assurance about how it might be used. We do not know whether the information, having been collected for one purpose, might be used for another. When we start talking about biometric information, which can sound somewhat innocuous\u2014it can be irises, it can be thumbprints and fingerprints, and all those sorts of things\u2014I nevertheless have real concerns about giving Government officials of whichever Government the power to get more personal and intimate information when there may not be any need to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo we will look very carefully at those particular provisions that give power to override citizen and human rights and we will want to make sure that they are properly justified in the context in which they are being given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddd9577c6e494c93b0e35da4a521f210\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddd9577c6e494c93b0e35da4a521f210\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Denise Roche\u20145 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b44f9beb112c4e2686020deb5dcc4550\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b44f9beb112c4e2686020deb5dcc4550\u0022\u003EDENISE ROCHE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) to go to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. However, we do have some concerns about it. We support the bill\u2019s attempt to address the exploitation of migrant workers. However, we are concerned that the provisions in this bill as it stands now may make it more difficult for migrants who are working in sweatshop-type arrangements. We have all heard the stories and seen the newspaper reports about immigration scams where workers are employed for extremely long hours for low pay or no pay, and where some workers have had their passports taken off them by their employer. We have also heard the reports of workers who have actually paid their employer in order to work for them and get their applications for a work visa through. It is a growing problem, and Darien Fenton, I think, spoke quite passionately about this. Certainly in Auckland, where labour inspectors are working for the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, it is one of the major issues that they deal with for a lot of their time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EAlthough we support the provisions in the bill that are directed at employers who are migrants themselves and who exploit others\u2014the provisions that make it an offence for employers who knowingly employ migrant workers on non-work visas\u2014we are still concerned that this might force the problem of exploited migrant workers even further underground. These workers are so desperate to live and work in Aotearoa New Zealand that they are working illegally in the first place and they work in an environment where, if they speak up, they are likely to be deported. Although this provision may be a disincentive for those types of employers, it raises the stakes for those who might be employed by them to ensure their silence. The pressure on them to remain silent increases and we may need to look at developing an open type of visa for those workers while those cases are being investigated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThere is a climate of fear for those people but, sadly, it exists for many low-paid workers across the board, and it is not helped by the amendments to the Employment Relations Act that are currently before the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. It was not helped by the introduction of the 90-day trial period, and it certainly has not been helped by the introduction of youth rates, which legalises discrimination on the basis of age. Combine those factors with a punitive approach to the safety net of welfare, where those who are on benefits are now deemed to be job seekers, and we have an entire industrial relations environment where workers do not speak up anyway. For those who are even more vulnerable, for migrant workers who are way over on the weak side of the balance of power between the employer and the employee, it is even worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EThe solution, as we see it, is to improve worker representation. That means to improve the rights of unions and promote their ability to bargain collectively. And we need to improve the industrial relations climate as a whole so that workers\u2019 rights are the norm, instead of having the current Government\u2019s moves to deregulate the workplace environment, which actively encourages bad employers to rip workers off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222df33ee5-23d6-441c-a9ba-6495aa69f9fd\u0022\u003EWe do have some other concerns as well around other aspects of the bill, which our colleague Andrew Little from Labour has already touched on. Those are the things like creeping biometrics, privacy, and the powers of the immigration officials. However, we will be supporting the bill to go to the select committee because we want to see and hear from migrant workers themselves. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022745da85023fc4b868ac965c00587730f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 14; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMana 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000709\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5875496f2fa4221aa7ea884f95d24e2\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae754ccd2fe74e14864ee460d760189b\u0022\u003ESocial Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill\u2014Recording Party Votes \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221d24170b56fd47feb81bd53f1a4f2092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d24170b56fd47feb81bd53f1a4f2092\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the following votes on the third reading of the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill to be recorded in the Journals: New Zealand Labour, 33 votes for the Noes; Green Party, 14 votes for the Noes; New Zealand First, seven votes for the Noes; Mana, one vote for the Noes; and Brendan Horan, one vote for the Noes. This does not affect the outcome of the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e44da043d63d42e4b550fb947fdc8179\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e44da043d63d42e4b550fb947fdc8179\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, as long as members are aware that it records the position in the Journals but does not change the vote. Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is not. Leave is granted. The Journals will so record that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f12058da776a475f9675c25b6857760b\u0022\u003EParole Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c84ccec53ed547038fdac1362df7aba5\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002288d3b32be4cf42eb8cdbd14307c3de13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288d3b32be4cf42eb8cdbd14307c3de13\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Parole Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Law and Order Committee to consider the bill. The bill implements the Government\u2019s post-election action plan to reduce the number of unnecessary parole hearings where the offender has little prospect of release. The bill also includes a range of measures to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the parole system. It is clear to the Government that hearings where the offender has yet to address the reasons for their offending and continues to pose a risk to the community serve little purpose. These hearings also cause unnecessary stress and anxiety for victims, as they relive the offence again and again. Under the current Act, the Parole Board is generally required to consider each offender at least once in every 12 months after they become eligible for parole. On average, each offender has three hearings prior to release, but there are four or more hearings in a third of all cases. The exception is where the Parole Board makes a special order postponing further consideration of a case for a longer period. I will talk about the changes to postponement orders in a few minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill increases the maximum interval between hearings in the general run of cases from 1 year to 2 years. This will give the Parole Board greater flexibility in scheduling future hearings. It will be better placed to align future hearings where appropriate with the completion of core components of this prisoner sentence plan. The existing requirement for a hearing at least once in every 12 months has led to a number of problems that this bill will address. Hearings often have to be brought forward to meet that strict requirement because of the scheduling of Parole Board meetings. A further hearing in a few months has to be scheduled in many cases because offenders are still completing core components of their offender plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EA third problem is that the entitlement to an annual hearing provides no incentive for unmotivated prisoners to address their offending behaviour. This bill requires the board, when it declines to release an offender on parole, to specify when the offender will next be considered for parole. It also gives the board the power to identify any milestones relating to the offender\u2019s risk that it expects to be achieved before the next hearing. As an incentive for prisoners to address the reasons for their offending, the bill includes a process for having their case brought forward when the milestones are achieved earlier than expected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI mentioned postponement orders earlier in the speech. Under the current Act, the Parole Board can make one of these orders where it is satisfied that in the absence of a significant change in the offender\u2019s circumstances, they would not be suitable for release at the time when they are next due to be considered for parole. Under the existing legislation, postponement orders can be for up to 3 years for prisoners serving indeterminate sentences and up to 2 years for other prisoners. The Parole Board makes these orders relatively rarely. There are about 20 postponement orders each year, but they play an important role in parole decision-making, not least by reducing the number of unnecessary hearings. Postponement orders are often made for offenders convicted of the very worst murders. They provide important comfort to the families of the victims, knowing that they will not have to endure all the stress and anxiety that goes into a parole hearing for a period of years. The increase in the maximum interval between hearings from 1 year to 2 years in the normal run of cases will remove the need for postponement orders for prisoners serving sentences of less than 10 years. The bill, therefore, restricts postponement orders to prisoners subject to indeterminate sentences\u2014that is, life imprisonment and preventative detention\u2014and determinate sentences of 10 years or more. The maximum term of the postponement order will, therefore, be increased to 5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill includes a number of other measures to improve the Parole Board\u2019s efficiency and effectiveness and reduce the number of unnecessary hearings. For example, the bill transfers the power to deal with written applications from prisoners to have their hearings brought forward from a panel of board members to the chairperson or a panel convenor. These applications do not relate to the sorts of issues board members are appointed to consider. The chairperson or a panel convenor is better placed to decide whether there has been a change in circumstances that justifies bringing a hearing forward, leaving the board to deal with the substantive matter of whether a prisoner is ready to be released on parole. There are about 500 applications of this sort each year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill also removes the procedural steps in the Parole Act for deciding whether hearings should be held as an attended or unattended hearing. The existing processes have made unattended hearings unworkable in practice, as they extend the preparation time by many weeks. This defeats the original purpose, which was to increase efficiency. The bill takes the more practical approach of specifying the circumstances in which the board can conduct an unattended hearing, although the prisoner will have the right to attend if they wish to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI am confident that the measures in the bill will make significant improvements to the parole system, and that they deliver on important commitments made by the Government at the time of the last general election. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002223901ee275d842029c32b8fb46e66bc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223901ee275d842029c32b8fb46e66bc2\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Parole Amendment Bill and to indicate from the outset that the Labour Party will support this bill, at the very least to the Law and Order Committee. It is a bill that meets some obvious problems that there have been and we have seen in the management of parole in this country, and it comes up with some useful solutions to them. It is worthy of examination by the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI just say that this Government is basking in the success of the work of the previous Government in the criminal justice area\u2014no less than the work of my colleague the Hon Phil Goff, who will talk in this debate about his great achievements. The Parole Board as we understand it today was established by Mr Goff\u2014probably one of the most far-sighted and visionary justice Ministers we have had in this country. He is entitled to take credit for the many positive achievements that have been made, which this Government, of course, takes credit for and has no business doing so. I note in the regulatory impact statement the observation that the number of offenders who, having been released on parole, are committing offences has almost halved since the creation of the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the board is getting it right\u2014it is moving in the right direction\u2014but, nevertheless, there is a problem still. Too many parole hearings are being convened relating to prisoners who really have no prospect of success in an application for consideration for parole. The nature of their time in prison, the passage through their sentence, is simply not such that they would warrant being released on parole, even under the strictest of conditions. This bill does address an obvious issue that needs to be considered, so if there are changes that need to be made to accommodate that, then all well and good. Let us ascertain whether the changes proposed in this bill will actually provide the remedy being sought. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to make the point too\u2014and we will come with this in mind in terms of examining this piece of legislation\u2014that notwithstanding the fact that there clearly are unmeritorious hearings being conducted, we do not want to lose sight of the fact that the Parole Board continues to provide very important and very effective oversight when it comes to the management of prisoners who are serving out their sentences in prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe truth is that some prisoners, particularly those serving longer sentences, may take some time to get to a point in the course of their sentence where they realise that they have to change. Whether or not they openly admit and acknowledge their wrongdoing and their fault as part of that journey towards change, many nevertheless get to a point where they are willing to change, and we would not want the deferral for a further extended period of the opportunity for consideration for parole when they may, in fact, be a suitable candidate for that. We would not want it to be pushed out so far that it becomes a hopeless prospect for them. So let us bear that in mind. We do not want those prisoners who are fit for parole, whether under suitable conditions or not, to be denied that opportunity when releasing them on parole would be not only better for the prisoner in terms of their rehabilitation and social integration but, actually, better for the criminal justice system and the community as well. So let us not ignore what the Parole Board is there to do and what the purpose of parole itself is, notwithstanding the naysayers in our community who want to abolish parole altogether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make is this: this bill appears to be yet another in the growing heritage of criminal justice legislation under this Government that is haphazard, uncoordinated, incoherent, and largely about responding to the odd sort of flare-up in public opinion. You know, you need only look at some of the provisions in this bill. I am looking specifically at clause 14 and the proposed new section 29AA, which relates to conditions being imposed on prisoners by the Parole Board\u2014not something that is new, but it now provides for special release conditions. Yet only a month or two ago we had the first reading of the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill, which requires victims, at their own expense and their own cost, to go to court to get special conditions put on just-released prisoners. How absurd is that? I said at that time, and I maintain it again now, that when it comes to the protection of victims of offenders, the criminal justice system should take responsibility for that. That is what a responsible criminal justice system does. That is what a Government that is genuinely understanding of the needs of victims would do. Would it not be a jolly good idea if a creative Minister of Justice and creative members on the Government side of the select committee could see that perhaps we could integrate parts of the Victims\u2019 Orders Against Violent Offenders Bill into this Parole Amendment Bill, thus obviating the need for the former and making the latter even more relevant than perhaps it might otherwise be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think that this is a bill that opens the opportunity for fruitful debate, and we are prepared to do that and we want to do that. But most of all\u2014if I could make this plea to those members who have the ear of the Minister, because I do not know who does in this House, starting from the Prime Minister down\u2014we think that it would be nice to have a justice policy or a justice strategy that actually develops and progresses the justice system so that it is coordinated and it is coherent, and so that the time of this House is not taken up by sort of knee-jerk responses to yesterday\u2019s headline. We should actually have an approach that is about having a good justice system and good criminal justice, that is about looking after victims, that is about managing offenders effectively with a view to minimising recidivism and ensuring rehabilitation, and that is about that being better for the country as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to just express this disappointment when we come to consider this bill. It is interesting in the regulatory impact statement that when it adumbrates the benefits of the bill, the first thing that it comes to is the cost saving, as if cost saving is the only thing that matters when it comes to managing prisoners. Yes, of course it is desirable if the Government can save a dollar and not have to spend it if it does not have to, but the truth is that when we are dealing with matters of criminal justice and we are dealing with the awkward, sometimes nefarious, and sometimes utterly bad personalities who pass through our criminal justice system, there is actually an investment that we make in getting the system right, not only the processing of it through the hearing of crimes and the imposing of penalties but also the management of those who are sentenced. Whether it is imprisonment or whether it is other forms of punishment, we actually do need to make sure that that investment is made for the best possible outcome. So just achieving a cost saving is not enough on its own in terms of supporting those measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut, as I said, there is some worthwhile and fertile ground in the bill for debate, discussion, and scrutiny, and we will give it that, but we will go into that with Labour\u2019s approach of wanting a coherent, well-coordinated, well-managed, constructive, and productive criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022945abfe174e5449e81ef4ae89c94d55a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022945abfe174e5449e81ef4ae89c94d55a\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E This Parole Amendment Bill is another example of National delivering on its promises, with a big plan for the justice sector that is being rolled out and has been very successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill aims to reduce the number of unnecessary parole hearings. Victims of crime should not have to face the very stressful prospect of attending parole hearings year after year when an offender is clearly not safe to be released into the community and might have made little or no effort at rehabilitation. Each year there are around 5,000 parole hearings and, on average, offenders have three hearings before they are granted parole. Our changes will provide strong incentives for prisoners to address their offending behaviour, for the betterment of our community. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002253cd823e84e246fa8d9b6cc8ea4ee297\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253cd823e84e246fa8d9b6cc8ea4ee297\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Labour\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will be supporting this bill, the Parole Amendment Bill. But at the same time, at the Law and Order Committee, which I sit on, we will be examining it very closely because I think that the quid pro quo for the changes being recommended here being acceptable is that there are adequate safeguards to ensure that there continues to be fair and timely consideration given to parole decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIt is not often I talk about movies in this House, but there is a particular movie that I remember very clearly called The Shawshank Redemption. I remember very clearly in that movie the unfairness of the system that was prevalent in the United States at the time, where you got called up for parole, but they were never going to give it to you. That is taking the system far too far in the wrong direction, even when people had reached the point where they had done their time, they had shown remorse, they were clearly on a better track in their lives, and there was not much point in keeping them in the prison system. Even this Government has acknowledged that keeping people in the prison system beyond the time that is necessary to preserve the safety of the community is not a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI put the Parole Act 2002 in place when I was the Minister of Justice. There was a huge amount of work that went into that new legislation, and that legislation brought in huge changes, which I think have had major and beneficial effects for New Zealand. The regulatory impact statement for this bill actually acknowledges that the reform put in place by the 2002 legislation has been really effective. It notes, and this was something that I insisted on in that legislation, that the Parole Board\u2019s paramount consideration\u2014and those are the words it used: \u201Cparamount consideration\u201D\u2014must be the safety of the community. That is exactly as it should be. The Parole Board has to be satisfied, before it grants release on parole to any inmate, that that person will not pose undue risk\u2014those are the words that are used\u2014to the public. That considerably tightened the parole system. It put the public and the victims first. When I say \u201Cvictims\u201D, I mean not only the victims of the offending that saw that inmate put into prison but also the potential victims, if you let somebody out when it was inappropriate to do so and raised the risk that they would continue offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement produced by this Government notes that the decisions made under that parole system that I put in place have resulted in a lot more prisoners serving a higher percentage of their total imposed sentence in prison, but it also makes this comment, which is absolutely vital: the result of that system is that the number of offences committed by prisoners between release on parole and the end of the sentence date has halved\u2014the amount of offending by inmates on parole has halved. That is a huge achievement and that is a major vindication of what that Labour Government did in 2002. Not only was the offending halved but on the measurements of harm done to the community by people on parole, that had also halved. So the legislation was a lot tougher, it was a lot more effective, and it has produced the results. It was not flimflam legislation designed to make the public think how tough you are on law and order; it was genuinely about the safety of the community, and that is the way that it needed to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWell, that legislation is now 12 years old, and I am happy for it to be reviewed. On first consideration, I think that the changes proposed will be beneficial, and they will be beneficial in particular to the victims, who will not unnecessarily have to worry every time an inmate comes up for parole, even if that inmate is patently unready or unsuitable to be released on parole. I and the Labour Party put a huge amount of emphasis on the position of the victim in society. The victim in the past has too often been the second consideration. It is the victim who comes first. If a person in all likelihood is not going to be released on parole, why then put the victim through the trauma of having to attend the parole hearing or wait to hear the results of the parole hearing, all the time fearing what the result might be from the release of the person who offended against them\u2014particularly in the case of very serious offences? If you are in the situation of getting parole, generally the offences are very serious. So what we put first is the position of the victim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement makes much of the fact that there will be a saving of about $700,000 a year. Well, you know, it is always good to save $700,000 a year, but that is not, I hope, and should not be, the driving cause for this reform. I think the cause for this reform has got to be that if a person is ready to be released on parole, then they should be released. It is pointless and is not right to continue to incarcerate a person who is ready for release, but we want to make sure that the person is ready for release. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement also points out many of the problems that we have. Most inmates go up for parole three or four times before they are actually released on parole, and that indicates to me that probably we are taking people to parole too early. There is a safeguard\u2014that the prisoner himself, or herself, can at any time ask for parole to be given if there is a change in their circumstances. If a person has completed a programme, and they have come through and all of the assessments\u2014and the assessments today are much more professional\u2014show that they are unlikely to reoffend, then let us get the person off the taxpayer\u2019s back, out of the prison, back with their family, and back contributing to the community. That is quite important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other thing with the 12-month review that we have in the present law is that because you have to do it within 12 months, many people are coming up at the 11 month period each time. So the period is actually shorter than the 12 months set out in the current legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EFurther to that, in many cases the parole hearing is taking place before the offender has completed the programme that they are on to address the causes of their offending. That is a bit dumb, to be frank. You know, if you go in there and if you have, as so many of our prisoners do, an alcohol or a drug problem and you are doing one of the programmes that we started up\u2014which this Government, to be fair, has continued and expanded\u2014for your alcohol and drug problem, then you are not going to be released before you have completed the programme. So why would you have a parole hearing\u2014because you have to every 12 months\u2014if you are working on a 17-month offender rehabilitation programme that is going to vastly reduce the chances of your reoffending while in the community? So there is a certain amount of common sense in the proposals that are being made, and that is the reason we are actually supporting this legislation before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate that although I am in favour of not holding unnecessary parole hearings, I am in favour of those parole hearings, in appropriate cases, being unattended by the offender. That sounds extreme, but there are many cases where the second parole hearing is just to get more information. If the inmate does not need to be there, and provided those rules are followed fairly and honestly, then I think there can be an exemption for the inmate having the right to attend that parole hearing. There are other cases where the only work being done is technical work where it does not require attendance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere is also a provision for the person seeking parole to attend by way of video, rather than in person. I have been in court when inmates have appeared electronically before court hearings. That works perfectly well, particularly in circumstances where it may be dangerous to transport the inmate. So there are some good things happening there, but what we at the select committee will be doing is looking to ensure that this does not obstruct the right to a fair and timely parole hearing, and that what we do will be about common sense. It will not be about actually keeping people in prison longer; it will be about not having unnecessary parole hearings when it is patently obvious to everybody that the answer will be no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ELast but not least is that we need to make sure that what we are is consistent with all of the international human rights standards that we as a country have signed up to and have always acknowledged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u00228218b161f3314bd586005d150786f988\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228218b161f3314bd586005d150786f988\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am going to take a short call on this issue, because my colleague who is the expert on justice is doing something else. But it is very important that we are on the record, because we are, at this stage, opposing the Parole Amendment Bill. We are not saying we will continue to oppose it all the way through. We look to the select committee process. We believe in improving justice law, parole law, and all of those other strategies. We think that the Law and Order Committee could make some fair improvements to this bill, and we will be watching it closely. We would like to be able to support legislation that improves things for victims and offenders, but at this stage we cannot support the bill as it is currently written. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe bill purports to reduce unnecessary parole hearings for offenders who do not acknowledge their offending, and have made little or no effort at rehabilitation, by increasing the maximum time between hearings, particularly for offenders serving sentences of 10 years or more. We have real concerns about the strategy of keeping people in prison longer if they can be rehabilitated. We recognise, as does everybody, that there are people who need to stay in prison for the well-being of society and for whom rehabilitation is a very challenging issue. But we also believe that there is a large, large number of people who are incarcerated at the moment\u2014and we need to remember that this country has one of the highest rates of incarceration\u2014who are not in that group and who may be moderately un-socialised at this time but through genuine rehabilitation, and support once they are out of prison, can actually become part of the peaceful synergy of a decent society. That is a big challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe support all parties\u2019 efforts with rehabilitation, but we think that this particular bill, in lengthening parole, could affect that in the sense that there are a number of experts who are concerned about this bill and do not believe that it is actually going to work to motivate offenders to join programmes. If we are going to motivate them, then those programmes have to be of quality, they have to available, they have to be robust, they have to be culturally appropriate, and they have to actually address the issues. When we think about some people in prison who are illiterate, who are dyslexic, or who have experienced extreme abuse, we see that those people\u2019s engagement with rehabilitation in order to make changes in their lives is quite a sophisticated business. It is not simple for them to change their lives. It is not simple if programmes that would be helpful do not exist or are too overloaded at the time to actually work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe do listen very carefully to people who work in justice and we do acknowledge some of the suggestions of people like Kim Workman, who says that these changes could encourage inmates to lie. He says that rehabilitation programmes could be inundated and are not resourced at this time to cope, and that there could be an argument that the change could force prisons to improve access. The problem is that it could also deter innocent people from pursuing appeals. So there are a number of interesting issues associated with costs and associated with victims\u2019 rights as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe statistic that only 5 percent of victims attend parole hearings is an interesting statistic. In reality there is also a challenge we would make around cost. We would argue that the idea that saving $10,000 per hearing by delaying parole hearings does not mitigate the cost of the $95,000 that it costs to keep an inmate in prison for another year. So this bill does not necessarily address the issue. If one is thinking about financial efficiency, the bill does not necessarily make for a more efficient system in terms of cost. The reduction in parole hearings may not be the most robust way to actually deal with rehabilitation. It may not be the best way to incentivise prisoners to engage in rehabilitation. I think that at all times we need to be thinking about how we can move people from incarceration into the community, and we are not yet convinced that these strategies will, firstly, save money, and, secondly, actually lead to the kind of motivation that is being discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe in the Green Party take a stance on justice that is very much about what is going to work. We have had a lot of punitive rhetoric in this country, and it is very easy to support the \u201Cthrow away the key\u201D rhetoric when you see the pain that some people have inflicted on others in this society and some of the unthinkable things that have happened, but that is actually a small percentage of the prisoners who are locked up, sometimes for quite a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe need to look at the other body of prisoners, the large body, and look at why it is that they have ended up where they have ended, and how we can change that so that they actually can leave prison\u2014ideally much, much earlier, before the \u201CUniversity of Crime\u201D makes it impossible for them to change\u2014and regain a relationship with the community. There are many experts in this country who talk about the critical period when prisoners have reached parole and are about to leave prison. That is when we really need to look at these issues, as well as before. So there are some serious issues here about parole and about postponement orders, which already exist as a mechanism but are claimed not to incentivise behaviour change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe are not yet convinced that this bill is going to do what it says it is going to do, so we will be coming to the Law and Order Committee and hoping to hear from those experts and from community groups that work in prisoners\u2019 rehabilitation, and in victims\u2019 rights as well, to see whether this bill actually does what it claims to do and whether it will actually make a substantive difference to justice for all parties in this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement does not claim that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act has been breached in terms of parole delay and in terms of prisoners\u2019 rights, but there may be interesting select committee submissions on the issue of rights and what that does in terms of disincentivising people to rehabilitate if they feel they are being hard done by. There are complex issues around change in the prison system. There are complex issues around justice. If cost is the driver, we are not sure that this bill is going to save money. Every year that we keep a prisoner in prison reduces the chance of rehabilitation. It reduces the chance of saving money for the State and for the taxpayer, and we think that a more creative and innovative approach to justice is needed at every step in the justice system before we get so many people locked up for so long with little hope of change. If we take away hope that they can get paroled, and if we try to force them in a way that does not work to stay longer in prison, it is not going to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe applaud rehabilitation; we just hope that it is going to be properly resourced. We will be watching this bill very carefully at the select committee so that if we see genuine change that is going to support genuine rehabilitation, we will be open to it. But at this stage we are unable to support the bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002232f05bec00df4722b3f64b943adfceea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232f05bec00df4722b3f64b943adfceea\u0022\u003EMARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The Parole Amendment Bill is not just about cost. There are some very good things in this bill that relate directly to making the justice system just a little bit easier to negotiate your way through, especially for victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI am a member of the Law and Order Committee; I am looking forward to receiving this bill. It is a good committee. We work very well across parties. We have a very good chair in Jacqui Dean, and I am looking forward to receiving this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc537a37797c40bbb18c72e6cf413af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc537a37797c40bbb18c72e6cf413af4\u0022\u003ELe\u2019aufa\u2019amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak to the first reading of the Parole Amendment Bill. This is an interesting bill but one that aims to determine clear changes to the current legislation. There is a saying that has been echoed twice in this House before, and that is that this country will not be a good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a good place for all of us to live in. This bill is more or less aiming to achieve that for society, depending on how we are going to enforce it or how it will be enforced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe main changes in this bill intend to make alterations to the nature and the process of parole hearings for offenders. The fundamental change in this bill relates to the interval between parole hearings, which the Minister of Justice aims to extend from 12 months to 2 years. Every offender will be able to apply for a parole hearing, and I suppose it is a good thing that this change is going to introduce some positive savings to our country. On the other hand, if an offender has been subjected to a postponement order, then he or she will have to convince the board, especially in one particular area, which is having to achieve significant changes, and to achieve those changes by eliminating \u201Crisk milestones\u201D, which have been highlighted from the previous hearings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EI do find it rather odd that the term \u201Crisk milestones\u201D is used in this context. I think it could be one of those things that perhaps the Law and Order Committee would like to consider. It could think of a proper or better word to use. Most of the prisoners are in prisons because they are either confused themselves or they come from confused environments, and the last thing we need is to use a term that could easily be interpreted in the wrong way. The way that it is written into this legislation at the moment, it can be viewed as achievement of risks associated with the offender, or a risk that the offender has been able to achieve, which is not exactly what it intends to do; or as that a milestone is the new extended definition of the work \u201Crisk\u201D. Legislation should avoid creating loopholes that will raise flags or unnecessary barriers to its implementation. The postponement order must state the offender\u2019s next parole hearing, and this date must not exceed 5 years from the offender\u2019s most recent hearing. That is actually stated in clause 12, in Part 1 of the bill. Postponement orders are within the scope of this bill, and it is important that they are used and perceived as a tool to change the so-called risk milestones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThe main driving force behind this bill is to reduce the number of unnecessary parole hearings, and I suppose that 5,000 parole hearings is quite a large number to be conducted or to be carried out. That amounts to at least three hearings before release approval is granted. We see from the bill that currently one-third of offenders eligible for parole have four or more hearings. The Parole Amendment Bill requires the Parole Board to specifically outline when an offender will be next considered for parole. Furthermore, it enables the board to highlight and identify the so-called risk milestones if an offender is declined release. A risk milestone is currently being defined in clause 4 of Part 1 of the bill as \u201Ca milestone relating to the risk that the offender poses to the safety of the community\u201D. I find that this definition is almost like a twisted explanation of somebody\u2019s full understanding, or to that effect. But a key element of reintegration via the parole process is recognition of criminal activity by an offender, and a proven change in effort to correct his or her life. It is also important that the offender recognises the harm caused to victims of crime in the wider community, which is why the Parole Board must put the victim\u2019s situation in the centre of this bill. Although the board may highlight and identify risk milestones, it is even more important that there are enough resources and support for the process of an offender taking reasonable steps to achieve their risk milestones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EA problem as outlined by the bill was the mention of the postponement orders lacking incentives for offenders to address their offending behaviour. This means offending plans for those eligible for parole, as current, are not working. That is the reason why this bill has been introduced to the House, because the current system is not working. I only hope the Minister can assure the communities of New Zealand that these so-called risk milestones will be the answer to that problem. One would see risk milestones as the mechanism that will also determine the length of time an offender will wait for their next parole hearing. For example, if an offender does exceptionally well and achieves his or her risk milestones, then he or she will have their parole hearing set at an earlier time. Although New Zealand First encourages achievement by an offender to achieve the expected outcomes, again it is necessary to reiterate that these milestones, as outlined by the Parole Board, must ensure that the offender is no longer a risk to the communities. We know all too well of many cases where offenders were granted parole and reoffended. In some extreme cases the result was often death. The system fails its communities in these cases where offenders should not have been released on parole in the first place. The Minister cannot afford to release any offender who may pose a serious risk or danger to any member of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports measures and mechanisms that will promote community safety and ensure that offenders are taking reasonable steps towards changing their offending behaviour. New Zealand First does not believe that the safety of the public and the communities should be compromised. Community safety is an essential part of our daily lives, and this bill will ensure that the Parole Board is more flexible, effective, and responsive. It is no secret that the Parole Board is responsible for granting release to offenders, but there is a need for the board to consider community safety as a priority in its decision making. It is common knowledge that the Parole Board determines the steps that need to be taken in order for an offender to be released on parole, and in order for the board to diligently carry out its duties and responsibilities it will require legislative changes to improve the way it operates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EI was amazed, when I was involved in the Department of Corrections, that many of the prisoners were often being called to Parole Board hearings every 6 months. There is a lot of work that goes on when a Parole Board hearing is being held. It is not just about having the prisoner being prepared, and taking the right rehabilitation programmes for them to address their offending behaviour. It is also about the community and those who have to assess their behaviour and their achievements. That means that psychologists are often involved. What I found when I was there was that there was a long list\u2014always a long list\u2014of prisoners awaiting psychological assessments. I sincerely hope that this bill will activate the importance of offenders being engaged in suitable and effective rehabilitative initiatives, in order to achieve risk milestones. Reducing the number of unnecessary parole hearings does not increase the length of time offenders spend in prison. That is a good thing, and it leads to savings. It gives the board greater flexibility, and reduces the stress and trauma that is often caused to the victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293e842da-b06b-4f08-88ce-cb568739e1b1\u0022\u003EThis bill will provide offenders with a reality check for them, when it comes to reintegration, which they need to meet as part of the parole milestone requirements. It also gives a reality check to this Government that our parole process is an integral part of rehabilitation, reintegration, and reduction in reoffending. There are too many falling through the cracks of legislative loopholes. I believe that this bill deserves to go to the select committee. This is what an investment approach is all about. It is what this bill is trying to achieve. New Zealand First would like to support the bill at its first reading. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002245831cea03cc4feaad8ae9ca03318f37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245831cea03cc4feaad8ae9ca03318f37\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I advise the House that this is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002275b1078c035840019648987bcd7be7f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275b1078c035840019648987bcd7be7f5\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E This is just a very, very brief call. I can assure Jan Logie that she will get her opportunity very, very soon to make a contribution on this Parole Amendment Bill. Labour does support this bill being sent to the Law and Order Committee. The Parole Amendment Bill amends the Parole Act 2002 to increase the minimum time between parole hearings, from 12 months to 2 years, for offenders serving indeterminate sentences or sentences of 10 years or more. The maximum time between parole hearings increases from 3 years to 5 years. Hearings will also be aligned with the completion of core milestones in an inmate\u2019s offender plan, and this is estimated to reduce the number of parole hearings by 800 per year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ELabour looks forward to the discussion and the debate at the select committee, and, I am sure, to the many public submissions. With that, we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224c3a8258e32f4ce08e92116d1a3bf684\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c3a8258e32f4ce08e92116d1a3bf684\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. The Green Party will, at this stage, be opposing this bill, the Parole Amendment Bill, although we are interested in the conversation that happens. I am happy to take a brief call on the bill at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAs previously stated, I will restate the purported goals of this bill, which are to reduce unnecessary parole hearings for offenders who do not acknowledge offending and have made little or no effort at rehabilitation. The mechanisms that we are being told will encourage them in rehabilitation will be by increasing the maximum time between hearings from 12 months to 2 years, increasing the maximum time between hearings from 3 years to 5 years for those offenders who are serving sentences of 10 years or more, and aligning hearings with the completion of core activities and goals to reduce that offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere are several points that we would like to raise briefly in relation to this bill. We are yet to see any evidence\u2014and we have had a briefing from officials on the bill\u2014that this bill is going to make a difference or increase people\u2019s chances of genuine rehabilitation. That evidence has not been provided for us. Concerns have been raised by us, within the justice sector, that it may lead to people, who are not at that place of actually recognising they have a need for rehabilitation, entering courses just to be able to access parole at an earlier level, and to go through the motions. This will fundamentally change the dynamics in those courses, and quite potentially limit the learning of the others on those courses because the seats will be filled by people who do not have an honest intent to change or rehabilitate. It could affect the learning of everyone on those courses, and that we have quite real concerns about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAlso, the courses are not necessarily available to everyone. There are a significant number of inmates who are illiterate, and a significant number of rehabilitation programmes that require reading ability. So if we are going to limit somebody\u2019s access to parole and tie it to those courses that they are not actually entitled to access, I think we have a fundamental issue in terms of justice in this area. We will be very keen on hearing from submitters and exploring whether that is real or not, though it has been raised with us already. It has also been raised with us by Kim Workman, who said that he is concerned that it may encourage inmates to lie, to say that they are ready for rehabilitation, when in fact they are not, and that the rehabilitation programmes, such that they are at the moment, are really struggling. We know many of them have waiting lists, and they may be inundated and not resourced to be able to cope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EOur hope with this bill is that it may actually provide a spur for a change in focus, force the prisons into improving access to those courses, and increase the provision. That would indeed be a great outcome because it is, I think, a terrible waste when people identify that they want assistance and they want to change, and they are not able to access those services. So that is something that we could potentially support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EOther concerns we have with this bill are that we have been told that part of the reason for it is to be able to take the stress off victims. That, of course, is a very important consideration. However, we are aware that only 5 percent of victims attend parole hearings and we have been told that their attendance actually has very little impact on the parole decisions. So it does seem potentially a bit disingenuous to try to present this as something that is going to be increasing its focus around victims\u2019 rights. We are also worried that there may be unintended consequences, but we look forward to exploring the real issues and the community\u2019s perspective in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c007180433904515829270484a822323\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Parole Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 33; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 13; Mana 1; Independent: Horan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000775\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e2f82aa0c6a43579998315a5f45bc7a\u0022\u003EObjectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200648b4a9ac34998b0069b930e0bd7b4\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022be482b449f6c46a296683a9cddaecaee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be482b449f6c46a296683a9cddaecaee\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice and Electoral Committee to consider the bill. This bill addresses an appalling issue that confronts not only New Zealand society but all areas of the globe. Offenders can now possess and distribute millions of images of sexually exploited children. In 2009 the United Nations estimated that internationally 200 new images were put into circulation every day. The internet allows offenders to access and share these publications with ease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the central features of the internet is its ability to simultaneously connect thousands of people and allow the continuous exchange of information, including text, audio, and video. This connectivity can facilitate the possession and sharing of offensive material such as child sexual abuse online. Advances in technology enable the transmission, retrieval, and storage of an almost infinite quantity of data at speeds and costs unimaginable only a decade ago. These advances mean that distribution is significantly easier. Those who possess objectionable publications can, at the click of a button, further distribute the material to a large number of peers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere is also evidence that the content of the publications is getting worse and that the children being sexually abused are getting younger. In 2007 the United Kingdom\u2019s Internet Watch Foundation identified a rise in the number of websites depicting the most extreme and brutal forms of abuse. This trend is supported by observations made by the New Zealand Chief Censor of Film and Literature, the Deputy Chief Censor of Film and Literature, and New Zealand\u2019s enforcement agencies. In addition, these images are often replicated and further distributed across the internet. These images can endure for the lifetime of the victim and beyond. Victims can feel revictimised by the knowledge that an image of them remains available to be viewed and shared. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI say that to keep pace with this hideous crime, the law needs to change too. Increasing penalties sends a clear message that the possession of, and trade in, child sexual abuse online is an abhorrent act. The bill increases the penalty for possession of an objectionable publication from 5 years to 10 years\u2019 imprisonment; for importing or exporting an objectionable publication from 5 years to 10 years\u2019 imprisonment; and for the supply, distribution, and making of an objectionable publication from 10 years to 14 years\u2019 imprisonment. An increase of this magnitude will mean New Zealand has a high penalty regime for this type of offending compared with some other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill also ensures that the law adequately addresses this horrendous offending by making four further changes. First, the bill will make it clear that possession of objectionable material includes intentionally viewing electronic material without consciously downloading or saving it. This amendment will remove any risk that offenders with particular technical expertise would be able to view objectionable publications without downloading or saving them. This will also futureproof the offences against unforeseeable advances in technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill provides a presumption of imprisonment for repeat child sexual abuse offenders. This presumption will apply unless the court is satisfied that the repeat offender should not be sentenced to prison because of a particular circumstance relating either to the offender or the offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill removes the requirement to attain the Attorney-General\u2019s leave to prosecute objectionable publication offences. This was historically a safeguard against inappropriate prosecutions. The Department of Internal Affairs, the Customs Service, and New Zealand Police now have significant experience and internal processes for checking the appropriateness of a proposed prosecution. Accordingly, the requirement to seek leave from the Attorney-General is no longer serving any useful purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELastly, the bill creates a new offence of indecent communication with a young person, who is anyone under the age of 16. There is currently a gap in the law between objectionable publication offences, which apply only if the offender makes a record of communication with a young person, and the sexual grooming offence. The sexual grooming offence applies only if the offender intentionally meets or travels with the intention of meeting the young person or arranges for, or persuades, the young person to travel with the intention of meeting him or her. Offences such as indecent exposure and an indecent act in a public place cover acts done in a public place. However, they do not cover indecent acts performed in a private place but streamed over the internet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIndecent communication by an adult with a child can occur in a variety of ways, including via text or picture messaging, internet chat, or telephone. Such communications are damaging to the child, regardless of the medium. A specific offence is therefore needed to ensure that this damaging behaviour is criminalised, regardless of whether the offender makes a record of the communication or whether the offender has taken steps to physically meet with a young person. To address that gap in the law, clause 13 of the bill creates a new offence in the Crimes Act of indecent communication with a child, or a person an offender thinks is a child. The new offence will be punishable by a maximum of 3 years\u2019 imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe measures in this bill will improve the safety of young people by increasing the severity of sentences and deterring those offenders who would seek to exploit children for their own perverse ends. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f131dc6795654fa2a20e769748ba8b68\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Andrew Little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1ac0126b2d74e06a09314a44921af72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1ac0126b2d74e06a09314a44921af72\u0022\u003EANDREW LITTLE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014I am glad my name is not shortened, because you would probably give me the longer version. That aside, this is a serious matter. We, of course, naturally will support any measure that is going to assist, yet again, to tame the more anarchic and wilder elements of the internet and the world of digital communication, and more so where it is used to offend against children and young people. We do not challenge the reason and the underlying purpose of the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill, and we will support it because we think it is worthy of examination by the Justice and Electoral Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E As the Minister of Justice has said, the bill does a number of things. It removes, for example, the requirement for the Attorney-General to approve the commencement of a prosecution in relation to an objectionable publication. We understand that, because those prosecutions have been rising, and we would expect that they will become even more prolific simply because of the volume of material that is now being broadcast and communicated through electronic means\u2014smartphones, and through the internet, and on social media. So that change is worthwhile. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe note the increase in penalties and draw the House\u2019s attention\u2014and we will draw the select committee\u2019s attention\u2014to the disparity that now seems to be emerging between these objectionable publication - type offences and lifting the penalties for them, and the physical offences against children and young people, particularly when they are sexual offences. Whereas the maximum penalty now for, for example, an indecent act on a young person under 16 or meeting a young person following grooming is 7 years in prison, a person who imparts an objectionable publication through, for example, an image on a cellphone may well be liable to a maximum penalty of 10 years. I would have thought that a physical act would arguably be more harmful and more risky to the young person. So let us examine this legislation to see whether or not there are some basic sentencing and criminal justice principles that are applying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe other thing the bill does is create a presumption, at least in relation to repeat offences, that the sentence will be one of imprisonment. Indeed, it goes as far as to expressly override the Sentencing Act in that regard for the imposition of a sentence of imprisonment where there is a repeat offence under this particular provision. The bill creates the new offence in relation to indecent communication with a young person under 16. We agree, and as I indicated in my earlier comments, this is yet another time or another occasion when this House is having to catch up with the speed with which communication happens in the modern world and the extent to which young people are connected to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EYou do not have to be particularly old now to have a cellphone as your primary means of communication\u2014and not just your cellphone, of course; your iPod touch can be used to communicate through the internet. You do not have to have a phone number. So this legislation has to keep up with that mode of communication. I know that my own son is a regular\u2014some would say frequent; I would say continual\u2014user of this technology, and we want to make sure, and the legislation should make sure, that there are some rules around it, at least for the benefit of, and the protection of, young people. So we think this bill is well worth looking at and supporting in order to have that examination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI would, however, make the same plea I made in respect of the Parole Amendment Bill, and that is: can we please have a criminal justice strategy that is coherent, that is coordinated, and makes overarching sense? I look at the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill and I wonder whether the Harmful Digital Communications Bill, which was 6 months in the creation and had its first reading last week, and I do not see why aspects of that bill could not be incorporated into this bill or the other way round\u2014bits of this bill incorporated into that bill. But can we please not have little bits of legislation after little bits of legislation responding to little bits of problems\u2014or, actually, quite significant problems\u2014that in the overarching, overall scheme of things are just one problem amongst many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ECan we have an overarching strategy and can we have a Minister of Justice focused on a justice strategy, or even a justice strategy for particular parts of the world in which we live? If it is about the internet, social media, and the risk of broadcasting objectionable publications, can we have a strategy to deal with that and deal with all those issues? If it is about making sure that all of the penal provisions in our criminal justice legislation are up to date and reflect the mores of the day, can we have something that deals with that, as opposed to this haphazard, ad hoc sort of approach that the current Minister is taking? That aside, this legislation is well worth the time of this House and examination by the select committee. We will support it, and we look forward to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00229be32718424d45cabfcb26a5dc3029e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229be32718424d45cabfcb26a5dc3029e1\u0022\u003ESCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on the first reading of the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill, which I am pleased to hear has the support of the Labour Opposition for its referral to the Justice and Electoral Committee. It is very appropriate that as a Government we are taking actions to increase the maximum penalties around sexual abuse of children that occurs online. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThese days people can access all manner of objectionable material in all manner of ways. Many of those avenues were never previously imagined by existing legislation, and technology is moving at a very rapid pace indeed. One of the great challenges for legislators all over the world is how to ensure that legislation remains relevant and current in the face of fast-moving technology. I guess the real challenge here for us in New Zealand is to ensure not only that we address current issues of the day of this sort but that we futureproof our legislation to ensure that technology does not continue to outpace our legislation. I am looking forward to having the bill at the select committee for consideration, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u00228c59150843504bb781ae23162ec5b1ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c59150843504bb781ae23162ec5b1ea\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call to support the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill. The main purpose of this bill is to increase the penalties for producing, trading, or possessing child pornography by amending three pieces of legislation: the Crimes Act 1961, the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993, and the Customs and Excise Act 1996. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces new measures to achieve the key purpose and improve the legislation in respect of objectionable publications and indecency. As outlined in the speech of my colleague Mr Andrew Little, the bill includes the new measures of increasing the maximum penalty for possession, import, or export of an objectionable publication from 5 years\u2019 to 10 years\u2019 imprisonment, and increasing the maximum penalty for distributing or making an objectionable publication from 10 years\u2019 to 14 years\u2019 imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe new measures include creating a presumption of imprisonment for repeat offenders. So any person convicted of a child sexual exploitation offence for a second time will be sentenced to a term of imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EWhat is worth noting is that the bill\u2019s amendments to the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993 make it clear that the possession of objectionable material includes intentionally viewing electronic material without consciously downloading or saving it. So intentional viewing without downloading or saving amounts to possession as far as the law is concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ETimes have changed, and we are living in a very different world now, thanks to modern technology and the lifestyle that is closely related to it. The creation of the new offence of indecent communication with a person under 16 is intended to reflect the ways in which offenders can use social networking sites, online chat programmes, and communication tools such as text messaging in order to communicate with children, with abusive intentions. In Victoria, Australia a parliamentary inquiry earlier this year called for the introduction of a \u201Csexting\u201D offence. However, it also called for a new defence for child pornography offences to ensure that \u201Csexting\u201D teens are not treated like paedophiles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ETimes have changed. I recall that it was in 2002, also in Victoria, Australia, that the High Court of Australia delivered the most influential and probably the most controversial judgment involving the internet. The Dow Jones and Company Inc v Gutnick case has so far remained the leading authority in defamation case law involving the internet and has led to significant legislative changes in the common law jurisdiction in respect of forum competence, jurisdictional limitation period, and single publication rule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe UK, for example, earlier this year passed the Defamation Act 2013 and codified common law in the area of single publication rules. Earlier this year Twitter was sued in Australia for defamation. But the role Twitter played was only as an intermediary providing a platform for relevant parties. That issue aside, the case involves a question as to whether a disclaimer published by Twitter would provide a certain kind of legal immunity for Twitter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI go back to the bill. Social media has become a very important part of our lives. Our Crimes Act and other legislation in the area of torts, banking law, company law, etc., will need to be updated to address new media, or practices or norms that are novel to us. This bill is heading towards that direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EChild pornography offenders have particular characteristics that set them apart from other offenders. Legislation therefore needs to be developed that addresses these characteristics. The recent Roast Busters incident exposes holes in our justice system. We need to have a robust regime to protect children from sexual exploitation. This bill needs to work in conjunction with the Harmful Digital Communications Bill so that we will have clear and consistent internet legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELabour supports this bill because it has a significant purpose: to try to stop the threat and use of indecent material and child pornography, which is a worthy cause. But National needs to develop a coherent justice strategy, not just come up with legislation on a limb to solve issues as they arise. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00222b8f19fb754f4ebc875e8fa44dd5950d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b8f19fb754f4ebc875e8fa44dd5950d\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill going to the Justice and Electoral Committee, and we thank the Minister of Justice, Judith Collins, for bringing it to the House. This bill increases penalties for producing, trading, or possessing child pornography by increasing the maximum penalties for the possession, import, export, supply, distribution, and making of objectionable publications. It also clarifies that a person can have possession of an objectionable electronic publication without saving it or downloading it. It provides for the presumption of imprisonment for repeat child pornography. This bill also creates the new criminal offence of indecent communication with a young person under 16 years of age. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIt is very clear that the online environment can be a dangerous place, particularly for children. It is important that this House considers the changes in technology, the proliferation of abuse, and the proliferation of the distribution of offensive images and child pornography online. This bill is furthering that conversation, and we thank the Minister of Justice for doing that. It is shocking that the evidence is that the content online is getting more severe and that the age of the children involved in the offensive material is getting younger. Clearly, we need to be having a public conversation about that and actually working to change the culture that is producing this material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIt is not a given that we have a culture that supports rape. We can actually create a society that understands consent and embraces consent, where enthusiastically consensual sexual activity among adults is the norm and what is approved of, and where anything separate from that is shunned. We can, if the will is there, create that society, and I for one am looking forward to the day when we can make that happen and make that a reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe agree that advances in technology mean that offending is becoming easier and more damaging, though I do need to put a caveat around our response to this bill and recognise that we have not seen any evidence that extending prison sentences is a deterrent or that offending or reoffending are affected by a change in sentencing. In fact, I would caution the House that in the case of rape and sexual abuse legislation we have seen the reverse to be true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWhen we increased the penalty to 20 years, it created a reluctance in the police force and in sentencing, and reluctance is part of the problem we have in people coming forward and laying complaints when the consequence is so severe. We have also seen in this area that judges have not yet sentenced any offender to more than 5 years\u2019 imprisonment despite the maximum penalty for some offences currently being 10 years\u2019 imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo it is not going to solve the problem. We have to do the social and cultural work. We need to consider quite seriously the role that sentencing plays in this picture, understanding the evidence and the impacts properly rather than that instinct. And it is an instinct that I completely understand\u2014to want to lock them up and throw away the key\u2014because the harm is so great and so significant. But if it is going to actually have the opposite effect of what we want, then we need to be open to consider that and make sure we make the best decisions possible. Our children and victims of sexual violence deserve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do acknowledge that there is a gap in the present legislation that means it is not necessarily an offence to view indecent acts performed in a private place yet streamed over the internet. That, clearly, we need to fix, and that has been done in this bill with the creation of the new criminal offence of indecent communication. We are very pleased to have that presented to us and to be able to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EOn the whole, again, I offer thanks to the Minister of Justice for bringing this bill to the House, but I also echo Labour colleague Andrew Little\u2019s request for a coherent vision and a plan for the legislative agenda that is based on the best evidence. We would see this ideally being fitted into the context of the Law Commission\u2019s work, which, again, I cannot help but bring up as being tragically taken off the agenda for the Law Commission. So I would hope that others in the House will join us in requesting the Minister to get that put back on the agenda so that we can actually have a more strategic response that is based on the best evidence to protect victims and ensure that justice is available to them. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022 data-id=\u0022318ac4fc5b074775b207453d4f11bbb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022318ac4fc5b074775b207453d4f11bbb3\u0022\u003EPAUL FOSTER-BELL (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call on the first reading of the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill. I speak in support of this bill. Those of us who have had a secure and loving average New Zealand upbringing can only struggle to imagine how horrific situations of child abuse must be. I think that those situations are made even worse by those depraved people who would seek to record, distribute, and view those sorts of materials online. So I think it is absolutely appropriate that the sentences for those very worst kinds of offending are being tightened and that the legislation is being updated to include technological changes such as the fact that these days materials can be viewed online without pressing a download button or committing it to a hard drive or a disk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207d42dbe-f05a-4a7a-8c23-0eecc14b72aa\u0022\u003EI think this is very welcome legislation. The Minister of Justice should be congratulated on introducing it. I would like to thank other parties in the House for offering their support as well. I commend this bill to the House and to the Justice and Electoral Committee for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022 data-id=\u0022857e2af2516a49bca46c3dfe1541829d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022857e2af2516a49bca46c3dfe1541829d\u0022\u003EDENIS O\u2019ROURKE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is always a pleasure to support good Government legislation, and the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill is one of a few such examples. We in New Zealand First welcome the increase in penalties that are signalled by this bill. We agree that there is a need for a clear and significant signal\u2014strong deterrents\u2014so I say beware to the Roast Busters and the others who are developing a culture of using the internet and other publications for illegal and indecent purposes. I welcome the provisions in the bill that clarify some of those offences and widen the net to catch a greater range of the people who are involved. New Zealand First welcomes the increases in penalties and the new offences that are specified in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EI will mention some of the most significant clauses. Clause 4 provides for an increase from 10 years\u2019 imprisonment to 14 years\u2019 imprisonment, which is a very significant deterrent, for supplying or distributing objectionable material whether doing so knowingly or having reasonable cause to believe that the material is objectionable. This needs especially strong deterrents. The social effects of such materials are significant. They encourage sex with under-age people, street prostitution, and a culture of sexual abuse generally, and target under-age victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EClause 5(3) inserts into the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993 new subsection (2A), which states: \u201CA person can have an electronic publication in that person\u2019s possession for the purposes of subsection (1) even though that person\u2019s actual or potential physical custody or control of the publication is not, or does not include, that person intentionally or knowingly using a computer or other electronic device to save the publication (or a copy of it).\u201D This solves some evidential problems and, as I have said, widens the net to catch more of the people involved. It especially means that proof of possession where electronic means are used will not be needed, and it will not be necessary for an offender to be proved to have saved an electronic document, and there will be no need to prove the intention to do so. This is appropriate and necessary. Otherwise, I think the evidential burden would be too severe. Possession per se should be enough, because electronic material clearly has to be searched or at least knowingly accepted\u2014otherwise the offender could not have obtained it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EClause 6 amends section 131A of the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act. Section 131A deals with offences relating to possession of objectionable publications, and knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the publications are objectionable. The maximum available penalty now is imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or a fine not exceeding $50,000. The amendment increases that maximum from 5 years to 10 years, but I think it should also say \u201Cboth\u201D so that both penalties can by imposed. I think the fine should be increased to at least $100,000, because some people do actually make quite a lot of money out of some of these activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EClause 7 inserts new section 132B into the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act. New section 132B contains a presumption of imprisonment for repeat offenders. It applies only to a repeat offender who \u201C(a) has been convicted of \u2026 a specified publications offence committed after the commencement of this section \u2026\u201D and \u201C(b) before the conviction for the repeat offence was entered, had been convicted of 1 or more specified publications offences committed before or after that commencement.\u201D In deciding whether such a publication is objectionable, the court must have had regard to the reasons in relevant classification office or board decisions. The offender must be sentenced for the repeat offence to a sentence of imprisonment unless the court considers the offender should not be sentenced, having regard to the circumstances of the repeat offence and/or the circumstances of the offender, including, especially, the age if he or she is under 20 years. That is a very important provision. These new provisions are appropriate and necessary. They are needed to provide the tools required by which it will be possible to break the cycle of offending in these ways by people for whom such offending often becomes addictive or for whom the financial rewards are too seductive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EConcerning the amendments to the Customs and Excise Act 1996, clause 10(1) relates to being knowingly concerned in the importation, exportation, or other unlawful transfer of an objectionable publication covering films, videos, and other such documents. The amendment increases the maximum term of imprisonment from 5 years to 10 years. This is also supported by New Zealand First because we think that a strong deterrent is needed for that. Again, some people make significant amounts of money out of these offences, so a strong deterrence is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EConcerning the amendments relating to indecency in Part 2 of the bill, clause 13 creates a new offence, punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years. Clause 13 inserts into the Crimes Act new section 124A, \u201CIndecent communication with young person under 16\u201D. New section 124A(1) states: \u201CA person of or over the age of 16 is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years if he or she intentionally exposes a young person under the age of 16 years (the young person) to indecent material (whether written, spoken visual, or otherwise, alone or in combination) in communicating in any manner, directly or indirectly, with the young person.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EIn a prosecution it is not necessary under the new provision to prove that the intentional exposure was for an identified purpose, such as to obtain sexual gratification, or to alarm, distress, or humiliate the victim, the \u201Cyoung person\u201D. But any identified purpose of that exposure may be considered in determining whether the material is indecent. New Zealand First welcomes this new offence, and 3 years\u2019 imprisonment will certainly cause an adjustment in attitudes. But New Zealand First does have some reservations about new section 124A(2), which ensures that \u201CA reference in subsection (1) to a person under the age of 16 years, or to the young person, includes a reference to a constable \u2026 who pretends to be a person under the age of 16 years (the \u201Cfictitious young person\u201D) if the person charged with an offence against subsection (1), when communicating with the fictitious young person and exposing the fictitious young person to indecent material, believed that the fictitious young person was a person under the age of 16 years.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247c29b78-eee0-4c91-afdf-7b07be780e1a\u0022\u003EThe problem here is that it raises rather too much of a risk of genuine cases of entrapment. This is a matter that I will be looking very closely at and discussing with my colleagues on the Justice and Electoral Committee, because there does need to be a balance between good legislation, as I have said, and some of the safeguards to personal rights, which we all must be vigilant to protect. So we need to have a good look at that provision to see whether the balance is achieved. But overall this is a good bill, and its referral to the select committee does deserve support. New Zealand First will be happy to vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022350a731e82c14042904dd01867bfdbad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022350a731e82c14042904dd01867bfdbad\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a call on the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill tonight. First of all, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Justice on bringing this bill to the House. I also congratulate the rest of the parties in the House on supporting this bill. It is good to see that every party in the House is behind it today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, our children are vulnerable, and they are especially vulnerable when they are on the internet with the new technology that they have in front of them and available to them. Unfortunately, there are predators out there who will prey on our children and abuse them. So this bill is very, very important in that area in particular. I am not going to go into any detail on this bill. Denis O\u2019Rourke just went through the bill clause by clause, so I do not think I need to give you that detail straight after his speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EBut what I do want to say to everyone listening out there is that you have the opportunity to come to the Justice and Electoral Committee next year to give your opinion on whether you think we have this balance right or wrong and on how we can change the legislation to make it even stronger than it is now. It is an opportunity for us to hear your voice. It is your opportunity to tell us about an issue that is really important to many people and impacts on their children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI encourage everybody to look at this legislation, have the debate with family and your friends over Christmas, and actually get the discussion going in New Zealand about how we can protect our children, especially in this area. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002271e3f407e47e4c1f94b0500f889729f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271e3f407e47e4c1f94b0500f889729f0\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It does give me some pleasure to rise to speak to the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill, and I too congratulate the Minister of Justice on bringing it forward. I think there is a malaise abroad that the incident on Facebook with the young men and their behaviour has brought to everybody\u2019s consciousness in New Zealand recently. The malaise can be addressed by law, but only in part. There are a lot of other things that need to happen. The way we bring up our children, the way we train people to be parents, the kind of alertness there is in the classroom to abuse and violence, and all of the kinds of social exchanges where children are present are moments that we should protect with more effort than we currently do, in my view. We need to train our children to think differently and behave differently. This is especially difficult when the role models they have are no role models at all. But as far as are concerned in this House, there is something we can do, and it is in legislation. As I said, it is only one part of the fix but I am pleased to support it. This is what we do here; we pass laws. This is one that deserves support and closer investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI have been reading the regulatory impact statement on this bill, and one of the things that the officials have said in the regulatory impact statement is that \u201CChild pornography offenders have particular characteristics that set them apart from other offenders. Child pornography offenders are almost universally male and their occupations vary widely. Offenders often distribute child pornography in order to access the collections of other offenders. \u2026 Due to the diverse nature of child pornography offenders it is not always possible to make useful comparisons. However, the majority of offenders have no criminal history. Further, most child pornography offenders plead guilty and readily acknowledge their involvement with this material. These mitigating factors can result in a reduced sentence.\u201D All of those things need to be taken into account when we are determining either the increase of punishment or the level of punishment that should apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI worry all the time that every time Parliament tries to pass a piece of legislation that deals with modern technology, the horse has bolted. In fact, there is another horse that we have not even thought about that is just about ready to bolt. I hope that in the course of the debate in the Justice and Electoral Committee, which I look forward to participating in, we can canvass some of the issues and make this both as broad and as specific as it needs to be in order to address the harm that is trying to be addressed through the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EOne other point I wish to make is the business of the change in the Attorney-General\u2019s function, and seeking the Attorney-General\u2019s permission to prosecute. Clearly, that has been done in the past. In fact, the Department of Internal Affairs, the New Zealand Customs Service, and the New Zealand Police, who are accustomed to bringing prosecutions in this area, have had to, with the exception of the Customs Service, seek the Attorney-General\u2019s permission. What I understand from my first look at this legislation is that that is being altered to apply only to private prosecutions, and if that is the case, that is fine. Certainly, there are safeguards that needed to be protected where there are private prosecutions being brought, so that nobody can bring a vexatious, frivolous, or damaging prosecution without reason. But where agents of the State are bringing a prosecution, then I think they have now developed enough expertise over time to be able to do that without the Attorney-General\u2019s explicit permission. They have some internal checks and balances, I think, that allow them to make sure that they are not overreaching themselves in that respect either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI look forward, as I have said, to good, thoughtful submissions on this bill. I am sure we will get others as well, but I look forward to the good, thoughtful ones. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6084511dfd74371b080c645144d3fb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6084511dfd74371b080c645144d3fb3\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on the first reading of the Objectionable Publications and Indecency Legislation Bill. Labour is supporting the referral of this bill to the Justice and Electoral Committee. We are supporting its referral to the select committee because it has an important purpose, because we need to know what the submissions are, and because we need to have a good discussion around this issue, which is to do with attempting to stop the spread and use of indecent material and child pornography. I do not think that anybody could ever argue against that, or ever would. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe bigger question\u2014and there are a number of bigger questions that I know my colleagues have posed tonight\u2014is where this fits not only within a wider and coherent justice strategy but also within a wider strategy around harmful behaviours and harmful behaviours in the digital environment. The big question that I want to put to the House tonight with regard to this bill is the absolute importance\u2014and I do hope that members on the other side are listening\u2014of the meshing of those things and ensuring that there is consistency. One of the big issues that has been raised around this piece of legislation, which has just been dropped upon us, is its reactiveness and the potential for it to be a knee-jerk response made in isolation from a wider strategic response. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EWell, you know, Minister Tolley, there are plenty of other things that could be being done at the same time that actually give the sense to the community that the Government is actually providing a wide, coherent, thoughtful, consultative response around some of the behaviour that has been so concerning in our community. Those behaviours are concerning in the online environment and in the physical environment, but the important thing is that the legislative responses have consistency across both those environments and are well-thought-through and that they are not reactive and are not knee-jerk. That is why the discussion around that is so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe conversations that I have had\u2014and which may be of interest to those who are shaking their heads and muttering on the other side of the House\u2014with reputable organisations that have been doing ongoing thinking in this area, and which have not necessarily felt listened to, are very important. Certainly, my big message to the Government on this issue is that it listen; that it does not just react in a way that appears to be because the problem is the latest thing and therefore it has to be seen to be doing something; that it does take a longer-term consultative approach to any moves in this area; and that it does widely consult and actively listen. Unfortunately, the Government is not known for doing any of those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThere are big questions in this space about enforcement, because there are not enough enforcement resources in this space to do anything like a thorough job. It is true of New Zealand, and it is also true of other countries. That should be acknowledged. If we are talking about the internet as the environment, it should be acknowledged that it is a very difficult place to police using traditional enforcement techniques. So one of the big questions that needs to be looked at in the discussion at the select committee on this legislation is whether agencies like the police and the Department of Internal Affairs really have the resources to enforce these regulations online. I would like to end with that question, because certainly the appearance of being seen to do something and the actuality of doing something and then backing it up with enough resources is critical in this whole debate. I look forward to that discussion in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.43 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20131119727eed3386d64cb3a9239acf5497c622000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"